Microsoft Makes Direct X 11.1 a Windows 8 Exclusive

BluPhenix316 writes "Microsoft has made Direct X 11.1 a Windows 8 Exclusive. I think this is merely an update to make Direct X more integrated with Windows 8. Is this going to be the trend? To lock you into the OS updates so Windows 7 doesn't last as long as Windows XP has?" The update is pretty minor, but it does add Stereoscopic rendering, and there seemed to be an implication that no new DirectX updates after this will be made for Windows 7.

Comments

Let's hope Steam on Linux gathers... steam

[e065c8515d206cb0e190]

and we won't have to put up with this anymore.

Re:Let's hope Steam on Linux gathers... steam

[jiriw]

What do you need a good [b]desktop[/b] OS for to play a game? It's only useful for support features as a console menu is useful to console games. As long as the graphics drivers are stable, featurefull and fast, there is enough support in your OS to start the game, do some configuring and maybe some support apps on the side, you should be good to go. Both Windows OS and a fully kitted out X are overkill.

Re:Let's hope Steam on Linux gathers... steam

[corychristison]

Linux sucks as a desktop os

... have you ever actually used Linux as a "Desktop OS"? All* of them?

If you've just "tried" one, then you really have no room for an opinion.

* by 'all' I mean the variations in desktop UI's... KDE, Gnome, MATE, XFCE, Fluxbox, Windowmaker, and so on and so forth.

Re:Let's hope Steam on Linux gathers... steam

[epyT-R]

because some of us don't want separate devices for every task and we like the enhancements powerful hardware brings to them? We've been using one machine for a lot of things since 1993 and we'd like to continue doing so.

Re:Let's hope Steam on Linux gathers... steam

[humanrev]

Sounds like a lot of time and effort expended into getting what you were already used to with Windows.

I tend to agree with him. I have yet to find a Linux DE that has the right balance between having too many options (KDE) or too few options (GNOME), while still having a modern GPU accelerated desktop which looks slick (Windows 7). Besides, the advantage is my wife can use my computer efficiently because it looks pretty much the same as her computer (and no she could never run a Linux distro - she's a teacher, schools use Microsoft Office, and I don't want to cause added stress by making extra work for her).

Re:Let's hope Steam on Linux gathers... steam

[humanrev]

Why thank you, I enjoy life as a prisoner. It helps me play a lot of games and ensures I don't have issues with file formats that everyone else uses. It's fun to be locked up! :)

Re:Let's hope Steam on Linux gathers... steam

[epyT-R]

1. It's just that she's used to a particular toolset. Linux offers competent toolsets to do what she does. They're just different from what she knows. This is different from not having the tools at all or even having less adequate ones. In the latter context, there are plenty of examples where all operating systems need work.

2. Aesthetics are subjective. I find aero to be gaudy and ugly. The older win2k/nt4 look was much cleaner and faster. Layout wise, it was far superior as well. Windows 8 borders on useless except for extremely simple tasks. I also find OSX and linux gpu accelerated desktops to be slow and ugly too. Seriously, I don't want all these needed fades and transisions and other stupid shit. I want it to respond. Instantly. That's just me.

3. microsoft is making 11.1 exclusive to windows 8 because they know that gamers panned it and they're trying to force them. Vendors need to realize that if their old products appeal to consumers more than their new ones, forcing their hands isn't going to make people rush out and buy. It makes them resentful.

Re:Let's hope Steam on Linux gathers... steam

[Anonymous Coward]

The same could be said about all software. I use Windows because it does everything I want it to do. Linux does not.

Re:Let's hope Steam on Linux gathers... steam

[ozmanjusri]

Stick with being a prisoner of Microsoft.

A lot more people are choosing not to do that.

Even Microsoft knows Windows 8 is shit. They've just sacked Sinofsky over it.

"REDMOND, Wash. — Nov. 12, 2012 — Microsoft Corp. today announced that Windows and Windows Live President Steven Sinofsky will be leaving the company and that Julie Larson-Green will be promoted to lead all Windows software and hardware engineering."

http://www.microsoft.com/en-us/news/Press/2012/Nov12/11-12AnnouncementPR.aspx

Re:Let's hope Steam on Linux gathers... steam

[epyT-R]

Wasn't julie larson the one behind metro?

Re:Let's hope Steam on Linux gathers... steam

[erroneus]

Wow! Is it still the 1990s?

In case you haven't noticed where things are and where they are going, we have specialized computers everywhere. Your smartphone is the most obvious, but also, your DVD player, your TV and lots of things are specialized computers. And so yes, you do want a separate device for most every task. That is, unless you carry a laptop around instead of a phone.

And things are only getting worse...or better depending on how you look at it. Before long, you will carry your computer and data with you all the time. The interface will depend on the application. In the car, it will be what you want in the car. At home, it will be what you want in the home.

And when you get down to it, most people only do a rather limited set of things with their computers. If they are mostly internet, then guess what? It doesn't matter which OS you use. This Microsoft-proprietary internet is just about dead. The internet+flash is going away too.

And here's a prediction:

Windows 7 will be the last loved OS by Microsoft. Windows 8 will be rejected in an unprecedented manner. It will be rejected by users... that has been done before. Windows 8 will be rejected by developers -- the people Microsoft has most depended on. At the end of the day, what keeps people using Windows is the applications. And when people start coding for other platforms instead of Windows 8, that'll be the end of Microsoft's reign. After that, it's all coasting downhill under its own weight.

And just as hard as it was to imagine IBM not making type writers, it is certainly hard for people to see PCs go. But we've seen it all before. The exit of the floppy... both 5'25" and 3.5" were OMG!! It caused fear and panic for a while. A lot of things are changing. Get used to it. Most of the time it's better. But heaven help us when storage is on the cloud with no option otherwise. That will happen when applications will no longer store data locally... just "cached" locally with built-in limits. Welcome to computing 2.0. Applications and data as a service.

Re:Let's hope Steam on Linux gathers... steam

[humanrev]

I just want to address one point in your post:

2. Aesthetics are subjective. I find aero to be gaudy and ugly. The older win2k/nt4 look was much cleaner and faster. Layout wise, it was far superior as well. Windows 8 borders on useless except for extremely simple tasks. I also find OSX and linux gpu accelerated desktops to be slow and ugly too. Seriously, I don't want all these needed fades and transisions and other stupid shit. I want it to respond. Instantly. That's just me.

There is no rule that says you can't have a fast, responsive desktop with a GPU accelerated desktop. Heck, if you're using Compiz it's damn easy - turn off the Animations plugin. Animations and transitional effects are just easier to apply to an accelerated desktop, but every operating system has a method for disabling them. A CPU accelerated desktop has the benefit of being able to incorporate Expose-style functionality, clearly peak behind windows using variable transparency, zooming in onto part of the desktop quickly, plus others. Not to mention alleviate the CPU of doing the rendering when your GPU is just sitting there.

Re:Let's hope Steam on Linux gathers... steam

[westlake]

If you've just "tried" one, then you really have no room for an opinion.

* by 'all' I mean the variations in desktop UI's... KDE, Gnome, MATE, XFCE, Fluxbox, Windowmaker, and so on and so forth.

No one has time for this.

Re:Let's hope Steam on Linux gathers... steam

[dbIII]

Before this site started there was enlightenment 0.16 which fit that description (and it's still available). Then there's the old Staroffice from back then, which has now been updated into openoffice then libreoffice. You have not looked very hard.

Re:Let's hope Steam on Linux gathers... steam

[epyT-R]

It may look 'smoother', but the latency is much higher. I suspect the culprit is that every time a window is moved, a button clicked, or animation played, the pile of code that executes on the cpu compared with the old GDI+ (or X11 software blitter) interface is monstrous. It's enough that I actually notice the difference, even on modern gpus. The cpu ends up doing more work rendering the desktop with modern graphics stacks than it does doing GDI+ on the cpu with simple primitives accel on the gpu. This is with animations turned off btw (and I still can't get that damned login/out fade in/out disabled with win7).

Unfortunately, what has happened is that the old win2k/xp style interface on vista/7 is actually slower than aero! Supposedly they took out the GDI+ acceleration in vista, forcing the cpu to do all of it, then added it back in with win7, but the latency is still there. The layout has suffered as well. At least with X11 I can run the old blitter and it works fine.

Re:Let's hope Steam on Linux gathers... steam

[Doctor_Jest]

One word: Fluxbox. Highly customizable, but not so cluttered that the options get in the way. The configuration is simple to understand and even if you don't change a thing, it works "out of the box"....

But you probably won't listen to me because I'm a rabid Linux fan...

Re:Let's hope Steam on Linux gathers... steam

[humanrev]

Oh come on. Do you really think I'm not aware of LibreOffice? I tried opening some .doc and .docx files recently with it (version 3.6.2) - it was able to open them and show things mostly like they do in Office 2010. But it's that mostly bit which is the problem, and I don't care about whether it's Microsoft's problem or not, the fact remains that it's not a perfect replication. This might not be an issue for certain documents but it certainly increases the odds that it will chew on something critical later down the track. We don't need that level of uncertainty.

Oh, and things like WordArt and borders are sucky in LibreOffice. Writer has Fontwork which is similar, but nowhere near as flexible or pretty (and any Word documents which use WordArt will not render properly in Writer). The borders also aren't as good and Word documents don't transfer properly when using borders from Word. These might seem like "minor" things, but it's an accumulation of "minor" issues in LibreOffice that make it less useful for us than it should be.

I don't' know why people in the FOSS community can't accept the fact that free software often has deficiencies, and those deficiencies can't always been ignored or worked around (or it might not be worth the effort to do so).

Re:Let's hope Steam on Linux gathers... steam

[NibbleG]

Don't... feed... the trolls...

Re:Let's hope Steam on Linux gathers... steam

[epyT-R]

yes, I'm well aware of this, and with that specialization comes the consumer hostile lockdown. The difference as that a dvd player (traditional ones anyway) doesn't track your play history and upload it to some assholes online who then sell the data to anyone who wants to know. The last thing I'd do is plug my tv into the internet, esp if it's got a camera on it. Since I can't easily control the software, I'm at the whim of the 'quality' code running on the device which was probably coded by underpaid indians or koreans.. No thanks. That ethernet jack is never getting a route to the internet. This is all far far worse than the aggregates the cable company gets from tracking stats with the cable box.

No, before long, all your data will be on the network somewhere, where it is beholden to the auspices and behavioral expectations of the ASP, the ISP, and of course, the state. Your only interaction will be that of access, not control. This access will be closely monitored and I can guarantee any action taken that is antithetical to the interests of the above will result in the related data erased and possibly your account terminated...or worse, jailtime. There are a lot of scary trends in place that make these statements less paranoid sounding every day, so don't bother retorting it as such.

The upgrade from the floppy to removable hds and then to flash was not riddled with middle men grabbing control and passing it off as convenience along the way. That's the difference. Since you agree with some of this perhaps you can throw away that initial fallacious argument. In many ways the 1990s were about computers as tools of individual empowerment. Today, they're becoming more and more the tools of enslavement.

Re:Let's hope Steam on Linux gathers... steam

[Anonymous Coward]

Windows 2000 and Windows 7 side by side. Grab a windows and quickly move it around the screen. In Windows 2000, the CPU spikes. In Windows 7, the CPU is untouched. It is stupid to NOT have the desktop UI handled by the GPU, which would otherwise sit around doing nothing.

That isn't even getting into the whole buggy drawing routines in pre-Vista Windows where windows will leave trails.

Re:Let's hope Steam on Linux gathers... steam

[Doctor_Jest]

I hate to be "one of them", but you're doing it wrong. I haven't run into dependency issues, well, ever. I didn't half-install, self-install, check somewhere else... I let the package manager do the heavy lifting for me. I have a couple of from-source apps I install, but for the rest... apt. You could do that just as easily with rpm... or you can go the whole source route and as long as you following the distro's packaging rules, you shouldn't have dependency issues, even in the "cooker" version (or "unstable" depending upon what distro you choose.) It's not as difficult as it sounds... and there are a myriad of graphical tools to help if the command line is too archaic for you (I personally love the terminal... the command line's where the power's at....)

I chose Debian Squeeze when I migrated to 64-bit machines simply because it was the most stable for my taste. Sure it's not bleeding edge, but I use the Firefox (iceweasel) repository for late-breaking Firefox installs and things work just fine. I changed the power supply and video card of my primary Debian machine, otherwise it'd have an uptime of over 100 days...

As for mainstream applications, there are equivalents to most mainstream applications. If you're a hardcore graphic artist or whatnot, certainly there aren't any apps that compare with the very expensive commercial offerings, though for quite a bit of their functionality, the Gimp isn't terrible. I use Abiword and gnumeric (no need for a full fledged office application)... and other than iTunes (which can be duplicated with more than one app in the Linux world), I can't think of any app that isn't available. But if there is, that's the beauty of it all... there are a myriad of free tools to roll one's own. I rather like the free developer tools. :) Microsoft could go a long way if they just stopped selling Visual Studio.... give it away so you can get the dev tools in the hands of those who need it (and have the most time to make apps for you...) :)

Re:Let's hope Steam on Linux gathers... steam

[humanrev]

I guess some people notice things differently to others. What I know for certain is that a non-composited desktop has a tearing effect when moving/resizing windows since vertical sync isn't applied, where as compositied desktops have silky-smooth window manipulation.

Also, what's wrong with the fade in/out with login/logout in Windows 7? Do you really suffer simply because a second is taken out of your life when it happens? It's not like you'd be able to do anything with the extra second anyway since Window still has to load stuff up (and is still doing so during the transition).

Re:Let's hope Steam on Linux gathers... steam

[ozmanjusri]

with that specialization comes the consumer hostile lockdown.

You mean, as opposed to the consumer-hostile lockin we already have to deal with?

Re:Let's hope Steam on Linux gathers... steam

[epyT-R]

Just tried it with aero on and off. You are right about the cpu use. I guess in the case of the gui, it doesn't exist in the driver/library code.. It exists between the cpu and gpu somewhere. however, I tested this in 7, and lot of GDI+ was done in the cpu, at least until vista.

Yes, those routines were buggy, but they could have fixed those without introducing an almost ten fold increase in memory footprint along with other annoying design and technical aspects. There is a point were making too many stacked assumptions about the user's intellect takes the designer over the cliff. Windows 8, OSX, and gnome 3 have all reached this point.

Re:Let's hope Steam on Linux gathers... steam

[epyT-R]

one other thing, I was talking about latency as well. the gpu accelerated desktops lag like hell sometimes, esp the ones in linux which are wrapped by opengl.

Re:Let's hope Steam on Linux gathers... steam

[humanrev]

Heh, well...

The problem is mainly due to the fact that the more different the DE is to the status quo, the less support you'll find. By using Windows 7, my wife can use it, my brother can use (on the rare occasions he visits) and basically if someone wants to do something on it, they can, because everyone knows how Windows works. The more you drift from that, the more difficult things get and the more effort needs to be expended. Even if I'm the only one uses my computer, I will end up having to use other computers, whether it's my wifes or someone elses, or my computers at work. Having them all run Windows 7 makes life so much easier than expend the mental effort to remember the UI differences between, in your example, Fluxbox and the Windows shell.

I've already run into this problem, even with GNOME. Gedit uses the non-standard Ctrl + Shft + Z key combination for Redo action (after performing an Undo). Windows universally uses Ctrl + Y; even on Linux Ctrl + Y is used as a redo in LibreOffice and I believe GIMP. But Gedit wants to be different, which is unfortunate since it's the most heavily used text editor I use in Linux. Little things like this get annoying after a while, and that's just one example.

Re:Let's hope Steam on Linux gathers... steam

[epyT-R]

well yeah.. my statements include that implicitly. The specialized devices don't generally allow control over the firmware if anything because they're not meant to be general purpose computers. The difference is that in the past, these specialized devices were fixed function and unnetworked. Today it's much different and that power is being used in consumer unfriendly ways.

Re:Let's hope Steam on Linux gathers... steam

[armanox]

I tried opening some .doc and .docx files recently with it (version 3.6.2) - it was able to open them and show things mostly like they do in Office 2010. But it's that mostly bit which is the problem, and I don't care about whether it's Microsoft's problem or not, the fact remains that it's not a perfect replication.

The users I support report this problem within the Microsoft system: Going from 2010 to 2007 or to 2003. We've had the most issues with Powerpoint and Access though, with Access 2010 files not working on any older version at all (and 2007 does the same thing to 2003).

Re:Let's hope Steam on Linux gathers... steam

[Trilkin]

Or he can just save himself the trouble and use Acrobat. Try explaining to someone that you extracted images from his PDFs and repackaged them in a OSS-friendly manner. At BEST, he'll go 'that's nice, but could you just give me a PDF please?' At worst (and most likely, honestly,) he'll call you an idiot and stop doing business with you.

Just because you CAN do something doesn't mean it's worth the time or effort. In the long run, the average user will almost always prefer Windows or OSX to any flavor of Linux you throw at him.

Linux fills its niches, but a desktop OS just isn't one of those niches. The primary goal of a desktop OS should be ease of use and compatibility of software. A lot of Linux distributions have come a long way in the former, but the latter is still just not there. Just because there's an 'equivalent' of a piece of software available for a Linux platform doesn't necessarily mean it's actually equal.

Blind zealotry for any platform is stupid because it's just that - a platform. A working environment. Every environment is going to be better at some things than others. There's a reason why multi-booting exists.

Re:Let's hope Steam on Linux gathers... steam

[humanrev]

OK, think about that. What's easier for a HUMAN to do? Have Acrobat do all that work seamlessly and efficiently within the same program, at which point you can re-save and work with it like a text-filled PDF? Or extract the images, run them through a script and dump the text to a file? What if you're looking for captions connecting to diagrams in the PDF? Once translated you'd search easily in Acrobat and you'd be able to clearly see the caption connected to the diagram in the file. With a text dump you'd see no such thing, and you'd have to manually hunt for the correct location of the caption/image.

Something tells me you don't want people to have a use for non-Linux software. You're not used to people not seeing your way. Well I'm smarter than you, friend, because I know how the world works. :)

Re:Let's hope Steam on Linux gathers... steam

[humanrev]

I'd expect Office 2007 and 2010 to be compatible with each other (at least you'd hope - they use the same format by default). I can't really get into a discussion with Access or Powerpoint though - from my experience she uses Word the most. Point is though, regardless of what version is being, the schools are still based around the Microsoft ecosystem and as such, deviating from that at home is just gonna make her already stressful job even more stressful. For my own personal use I can use just about anything - but I'm married. I'm hardly gonna create marital harmony just for Linux's sake. :D

Re:Let's hope Steam on Linux gathers... steam

[bmo]

>Well I'm smarter than you, friend,

Yep, I foed you and this just confirms that I made the right choice.

--
BMO

Re:Let's hope Steam on Linux gathers... steam

[bmo]

>Try explaining to someone that you extracted images from his PDFs and repackaged them in a OSS-friendly manner. At BEST, he'll go 'that's nice, but could you just give me a PDF please?'

What you guys don't seem to understand is that you can reassemble all this back into a PDF quite easily.

You do *not* need Acrobat to do this.

http://linux.slashdot.org/story/10/07/22/1852234/open-source-ocr-that-makes-searchable-pdfs

--
BMO

Re:Let's hope Steam on Linux gathers... steam

[humanrev]

Likewise.

I mean what did you expect? You're not listening to reason, you just want to insult. How you expect to grow and appreciate other people's viewpoints by calling them dumb over their choice of operating system, I'm not. But it's fun to watch you squirm. :D

Re:Let's hope Steam on Linux gathers... steam

[armanox]

Are the school's MS based now? When I was in HS (graduated 2006 in Baltimore County) we were still mostly Macs (with some PCs poping up).

Re:Let's hope Steam on Linux gathers... steam

[slashmydots]

and we won't have to put up with this anymore.

You're jumping the gun there. This headline just in: No new games plan to use Direct X 11.1. Why? Gamers aren't morons and only morons buy Windows 8 and gaming companies want customers.

Re:Let's hope Steam on Linux gathers... steam

[humanrev]

You really think the solution is to use a Live CD and run a server on my network? This might work for certain scenarios but it doesn't match what Acrobat does - load up a PDF, convert images to text, allows searching of text within that PDF, all without any extra work since it's all elegantly integrated into the same tool. There's major value in being able to do that within the one program without any additional setup and have it used by a non-geek. I think geeks overlook this rather important facet.

Re:Let's hope Steam on Linux gathers... steam

[Chas]

I wouldn't be too happy about Larson-Green. She's the idiot responsible for the stupid "Ribbon" interface that completely fucked up usability in Office.

Re:Let's hope Steam on Linux gathers... steam

[Anonymous Coward]

Dependencies haven't been a problem with any distribution that uses package management for a long time. Ubuntu handles dependencies, and has since it started, since it is a modification of Debian.

Re:Let's hope Steam on Linux gathers... steam

[humanrev]

It varies. I graduated HS in 2000 (Australia) and recall a mixture of PCs and Macs in my school. As for what my wife encounters I'd probably it's still predominately PCs since they're cheaper than Macs. There are occasionally Macs but not in the same number, and for those Macs that do exist, you can be sure they would be running Office anyway for interoperability.

Australia is still a very Microsoft-friendly country. If we were European I wonder what the odds were that this would be such an issue...

Re:Let's hope Steam on Linux gathers... steam

[Anonymous Coward]

Nope. Will not happen.

Companies use desktop PCs, so what *might* happen here is that they simply don't upgrade and wait for the next one. I've seen this before with companies that took XP, skipped Vista, then took 7. Maybe they'll skip 8 and wait for 9 but ultimately they need to run Windows to keep their LOB applications running. Companies don't upgrade codebases that are working already; that takes money, time and people (and right now hiring people is the last thing any company on the planet wants to do).

Re:Let's hope Steam on Linux gathers... steam

[bmo]

>You really think the solution is to use a Live CD and run a server on my network?

If you have a bunch of people doing it, yes, a server dedicated to the task is not out of the ordinary.

There are .debs that you can install in your own Ubuntu desktop. I was just giving an example.

Honest to glub, you're dense and didn't click through the link.

>elegantly integrated into the same tool

Nothing that Adobe does is elegant. Just because you can't see the guts working doesn't mean it's a massive dump.

The Windows install of Adobe Reader is a135MB download. Flash is a nightmare on every platform. If you program something for the Adobe Photoshop API, there will be 10 ways to do something and Adobe will pick a 13'th undocumented way to do it.

FFS.

--
BMO

Re:Let's hope Steam on Linux gathers... steam

[KingMotley]

Microsoft could go a long way if they just stopped selling Visual Studio.... give it away so you can get the dev tools in the hands of those who need it (and have the most time to make apps for you...

You mean like they have been doing for the last 5+ years?

Here's a link to the latest: http://www.microsoft.com/visualstudio/eng/downloads#d-2012-express

Re:Let's hope Steam on Linux gathers... steam

[humanrev]

If you have a bunch of people doing it, yes, a server dedicated to the task is not out of the ordinary.

Bunch of people? I made it clear we're only using this feature for ONE PERSON, you fucking idiot. Heck I didn't bash the WatchOCR, I even mentioned that it might be suitable "for certain scenarios", but setting up a server just for one person?

You are correct though, there are indeed .deb files for Ubuntu. Pity we're not using Linux since we still have a dependance on all that other damn stuff I mentioned (like Office at least), but whatever.

Nothing that Adobe does is elegant. Just because you can't see the guts working doesn't mean it's a massive dump.

Load PDF, select View > Tools > Text Recognition, change a couple of options (or leave the defaults which generally work anyway), and Bam! PDF scanned and text now highlightable/searchable. I agree that a lot of Adobe software is bloated but in terms of steps to get the job done, how is that not elegant?

FYI: Adobe Reader XI is a 36.1 MB download (assuming you use the directly link and not the web installer). But Reader won't do what we want, only the full Acrobat. Can't remember how big that is, but hey, disk space is there to be used.

Re:Let's hope Steam on Linux gathers... steam

[humanrev]

Hell no. I'm not anti-Linux. I'm anti-fanboy who live in their own little reality and get angry that not enough people follow their religion.

Re:Let's hope Steam on Linux gathers... steam

[Doctor_Jest]

So what's it missing? All the tools you need are available for free on the Mac (at least it used to be) and Linux. There's a Professional Edition, and like Microsoft's marketing genius, an "Ultimate Edition" (which I assume has everything and the kitchen sink...heh.) but I can't see a feature comparison against Express v. the paid versions.

5 years ago it was a CLI compiler that had plenty of shortcomings (compared to the paid version). It appears they're getting better, but they still have a TON of way to go... As always YMMV, etc etc.

Re:Let's hope Steam on Linux gathers... steam

[Billly Gates]

Whats wrong with one tablet that can act as a PC too? Metro is not perfect yet, but I can see this nice on the road if it came with Office and Skydrive. Go back to the room and I can view my documents and do a powerpoint presentation with it as well.

Re:Let's hope Steam on Linux gathers... steam

[freman]

I use linux because I can make it do everything I don't want to do - windows sux for automation...

Re:Let's hope Steam on Linux gathers... steam

[freman]

Did you know, Adobe Acrobat has previously been full of security holes, embeds it's self in your browser, and frequently crashes (taking your browser with it?)

Even on my windows netbook I prefer free/open source PDF readers, if I want OCR I'll do it myself, I've never wanted OCR....

Re:Let's hope Steam on Linux gathers... steam

[freman]

s/You're dumb./Go away before I replace you with a small shell script!/;

fixed :D

Re:Let's hope Steam on Linux gathers... steam

[humanrev]

I don't understand the people that post here sometimes. You're all supposed to be geeks, surely you know how to disable a plugin (like I do) so that PDFs can be opened externally, hence not freezing/crashing your browser. But I guess that's too complicated nowadays...

I don't like using the alternatives because honestly, Adobe Reader/Acrobat have the best support for things such as forms that sometime fail in other PDF readers. And since people generally target Reader/Acrobat when building said types of PDFs it feels counter-productive to use a non-standard reader if it's not necessary to do so (even though PDFs are meant to be a standard, sometimes it doesn't quite work out that way).

Re:Let's hope Steam on Linux gathers... steam

[hairyfeet]

Won't have to worry about it in any case, just look at how they refused to backport DX 11 and to this day most games are still DX 9. Some may have the option to run DX 11 but I have only seen one game so far (Just Cause II) that required DX 10 and none that is DX 11 exclusive. Oh there may be a few out there, but cutting out a huge number of potential customers is retarded.

Oh and it looks like the first half of my prediction, that after Win 8 flops that Ballmer and Sinofsky will "pursue other interests" is coming true because Sinofsky is outta there fuck yeah! Now that Snickerdouche, the asshole that forced so many of the bad design choices of Win 8 down our throats is gone, that will only leave Ballmer...guess who the board is gonna blame when Win 8 turns out to be Vista II? They have spent 2 BILLION on advertising and actually had the balls to brag they sold 4 million copies...that is $500 for each $40 sale, so I'd say we are already on our way to flop city baby yeah! Now that everyone other than MSFT has decided to "delay" (read not put out) WinRT tablets its all on Ballmer's head now.

Finally I hate to burst your bubble but until Torvalds is booted like Sinofsky good fucking luck on Linux going anywhere. Quick, what do BSD, Solaris, Windows, OSX, and OS/2 have in common that Linux does NOT have? A stable driver ABI and boy does it show. Anyone who can do basic math could see Torvalds "let the devs handle it" simply won't work. you have MAYBE 200 devs (probably closer to 50, but benefit, doubt, yadda yadda) that are truly experienced enough and qualified to do low level driver writing and diagnostics, and you have 100,000+ drivers and every subsystem from the kernel on up in a constant state of flux...see the problem?

Anyone that thinks Linux is ready is welcome to take the Hairyfeet challenge, not a single Linux variant has passed it yet, it simulates a typical 5 year PC lifespan and is less than half the support cycle of Windows yet every single distro ends up with one or more drivers busted. Anyone who wants to see the conditions can look it up by Googling "Hairyfeet Challenge".

In the end the problem with Linux is Torvalds and his arrogant fellow devs, to truly gain the masses you have to do things at LEAST as easy as the competition, yet Torvalds thinks its perfectly fine to have to Google for fixes, do forum hunts, and input piles of CLI (that often one has to tweak because it was written for hardware A, rev B, firmware C and Linux is so damned picky it won't take it if you have hardware A, rev C, firmware D if you don't tweak the damned thing) just to get the drivers that were working before the update to work after.

so I'm sorry but you'd have better odds of Apple Macs becoming the new gaming platform, at least you can update OSX for the lifecycle of the version without the drivers crapping themselves.

Re:Let's hope Steam on Linux gathers... steam

[Anonymous Coward]

You do realize that Larson-Green, who's stepping in to replace Sinofsky, is the person behind both Ribbon, and more recently Metro? Sinofsky was an executive manager, not a designer. Larson is the designer.

If anything, I find it far more likely that Sinofsky got kicked out because he didn't support going Metro "all in".

Re:Let's hope Steam on Linux gathers... steam

[Anonymous Coward]

>> I'm at the whim of the 'quality' code running on the device which was probably coded by underpaid indians or koreans..

Just to set the facts straight, you're way off in practical terms. You're right that Indian software engineers are paid low (~40K for someone about 10 years in the job) as compared to the average American software engineer (~115K as a rough guesstimate) at the same point in their career, but that 40K goes a very long way when the Indian Rupee goes at ~54 rupees to the USD. That low salary allows the software engineer in India to live a life of luxury at a level significantly above the rest of the country and software engineers' salaries are in the top 5% bracket for the country. Bottom line, the so called underpaid Indians are far more motivated in their highly paying jobs than we would ever be in the US.

In the interest of disclosure I am of Indian origin and worked the first 5 years of my career in India before moving to the US and I've been working in the since 2003. When I compare what I earn to others that have returned to careers in India earn I'm jealous because of the significantly higher paychecks (in relative terms as compared to the buying power from that income).

Re:Let's hope Steam on Linux gathers... steam

[knarf]

and no she could never run a Linux distro - she's a teacher, schools use Microsoft Office, and I don't want to cause added stress by making extra work for her

A teacher. Who can not learn new things.

Cognitive disconnect?

My wife is a vet (as in 'animal doctor'). She has tons of patience - for animals (horses, to be specific). When it comes to technology she has no patience whatsoever, and seems to have a complete lack of the urge to explore. You can guide her to press the button which says 'click' ten times, and will need to do the same the eleventh because she'll have forgotten how to do it. At her work they use Windows since all that crappy vet-software is built on the ramshackle house of cards called Microsoft - parts of it still need VB6...

At home we have no Windows so she uses Linux. In her case it is Ubuntu, but if she happens to use one of my computers she's confronted with Debian running Xmonad. She grumbles, but then she always grumbles when it comes to computers. I don't notice her grumbling any more using Linux than she does using Windows. If she can, so can your wife - and as it seems to be her job to teach children about new things I hope she has the aptitude and open mind to pick up a new thing or two herself. If not, I pity the children under her care.

Re:Let's hope Steam on Linux gathers... steam

[Bert64]

Actually if the hardware is consistent (amiga, older games consoles etc) then drivers are unimportant too, since your game can program the hardware directly.. Doing so can result in significantly better performance due to eliminating the overhead of drivers, and was all but essential a few years ago when hardware was considerably slower.

Re:Let's hope Steam on Linux gathers... steam

[fremean]

Hehe, don't mind me, I don't take these conversations seriously, I enjoy poking fun without going to the extent of trolling. Truth be told, I use both platforms interchangeably. Tho, I do find Adobe tools frustrating, much like I found itunes insufferable, this is just me tho, no reflection on the tool - I'm clearly not it's target market.

Re:Let's hope Steam on Linux gathers... steam

[humanrev]

She's quite good with technology, that's not the issue. I probably didn't make it clear in my post, but the stress would be due to incompatibility between LibreOffice and MS Office (yes they exists, I've experienced them myself, nothing you say will make this not a fact).

Hopefully you now don't "pity the children under her care".

Re:Let's hope Steam on Linux gathers... steam

[symbolset]

Thanks for reminding us that Office is the least compatible software on Earth. When we put our useful information into it, we make that information less useful because we can't get it back out again.

Re:Let's hope Steam on Linux gathers... steam

[rastos1]

don't' know why people in the FOSS community can't accept the fact that free software often has deficiencies

Yes, MS Office and LibreOffice render stuff differently. But how do you know which one is wrong?

Re:Let's hope Steam on Linux gathers... steam

[wonkey_monkey]

Let's hope Steam on Linux gathers... steam

*sunglasses* yeeeaaahh?

Re:Let's hope Steam on Linux gathers... steam

[dbIII]

Other software does the job intended and should not be blamed for petty Microsoft games of changing secret formats.
I don't know why you can't accept the fact that closed software can have deficiencies that cannot be worked around at all without legal consequences.

Nice distraction from the main point of desktop environment by the way. You high school debating geeks are annoying and impossible to discuss things with like adults.

Re:Let's hope Steam on Linux gathers... steam

[humanrev]

I'm almost 30 mate. It's the high school geeks who don't understand why the world hasn't embraced open source yet who are the difficult ones.

Re:Let's hope Steam on Linux gathers... steam

[hairyfish]

Windows 7 will be the last loved OS by Microsoft. Windows 8 will be rejected in an unprecedented manner. It will be rejected by users... that has been done before. Windows 8 will be rejected by developers -- the people Microsoft has most depended on. At the end of the day, what keeps people using Windows is the applications. And when people start coding for other platforms instead of Windows 8, that'll be the end of Microsoft's reign. After that, it's all coasting downhill under its own weight.

Lol. Let share a little bit of wisdom with you. People don't stop using something because it sucks, people stop using things because there are "better" alternatives. The key word here is "better". Right now there is nothing that even comes close to Microsoft's suite of offerings for the corporate market. You might argue the Linux is technically better for reason X or Apple is better because reason Y, but the simple fact is that MS has the market cornered for business apps, and they are the incumbent, which is an extremely hard position to change. Don't be confused by Apple's recent success, consumer's are fickle which is why MS has invested heavily in Corporate lock-in. The only cases of MS "rejection" were because MS themselves had better alternatives, not the competition. Windows 8 might not be your cup of tea, but I've got a prediction for you. The only thing that will beat it will either be Windows 7 or Windows 9.

Re:Let's hope Steam on Linux gathers... steam

[hairyfish]

These might seem like "minor" things, but it's an accumulation of "minor" issues in LibreOffice that make it less useful for us than it should be.

Pretty much goes for Linux on the desktop in general. As a user I don't care why you think it's bad, MS products are generally the 'least worst' once you take into account all relevant considerations.

Re:Let's hope Steam on Linux gathers... steam

[DrXym]

This is a nonsense argument.

No, it's a quite sensible argument. KDE presents a needlessly complex UI thanks in part to the rat's nest of menus, buttons and options, more options and even more options it flings in the face of users. Sometimes less is more and its never been a message that KDE or its users have seemed receptive to. This may explain why even on Linux KDE has always been in the shadow of GNOME which has paid far more attention to usability.

Re:Let's hope Steam on Linux gathers... steam

[erroneus]

Counterpoint: Tablets have more than enough power when compared to the quite useful PCs we used to have.

When it comes down to truly useful technology, efficient coding (even and often in assembler) can make that sort of hardware do things which are presently unimaginable. A culture of getting the most out of hardware needs to return. It used to exist when PCs were in their infant state. It would be appropriate for tablets today. I can't speak to the efficiency of the efficiency of dalvik code, but it's object oriented so I instinctively doubt that it would be.

Re:Let's hope Steam on Linux gathers... steam

[erroneus]

People didn't stop using Windows XP voluntarily.

As for Linux? Never made mention of it, but lately applications being developed are increasinly web enabled meaning that the Windows workstation becomes less relevant or important. As Windows 7 was forced onto people, they didn't exactly go to it because it was "better." I suppose it's true in some sense... that they killed XP from the inside with every update. (Experiment if you have the time: do a perfomance test on two machines. XP SP2 on one and XP SP3 on the other.)

I think you're living a decade behind if you really believe what you are saying. People STILL want Windows XP. For that matter, they still want Windows 98. When Windows 95 came out, PCs and Windows were "electric" with enthusiasm. We were wowed with the newness and freshness of it all. We haven't been excited about PCs for a very long time and when we have anything like it, it came from other sources... Linux and sometimes Apple showing us what machines can do but isn't being done under Windows.

Re:Let's hope Steam on Linux gathers... steam

[Alex Belits]

Did you know, Adobe Acrobat has the ability to analyze a PDF which is compromised entirely of scanned pages from a book, perform OCR on it and then actually allows you to perform regular text searching in it as well as highlight and copy the bit-mapped text from the PDF as if it were actual ASCII text?

OCR is a gimmick unusable for anything practical -- it misspels too often to be usable for searching. What is worse, if you have text in a bitmap format, you can be certain, for the same reason it is in bitmap, it's too low resolution to be OCR'ed.

Re:Let's hope Steam on Linux gathers... steam

[Waccoon]

Are you saying that there's fleets of people porting new technologies to old kernels, so the old kernels can use new technology, or are you saying that upgrading to the latest kernel is always free of cost, so nobody really cares whether old distros can use the new and shiny?

Re:Let's hope Steam on Linux gathers... steam

[jellomizer]

My Lenovo Tablet has 8 Gigs of Ram and an i7 processor. It is plenty powerful enough for almost all my tasks.

Re:Let's hope Steam on Linux gathers... steam

[VortexCortex]

Linux fills its niches, but a desktop OS just isn't one of those niches.

That's funny. Eight of my family members and twelve of my close friends, and myself all use Linux as a desktop OS, and have been for the past six years. Perhaps you are the one who has "Blind zealotry for any platform"? I put it to you that your outlook "is stupid", and furthermore, I don't think you know what you're talking about at all. Hell, one of my friends who works in the mortgage industry brings her Linux laptop to work so she can use LibreOffice to open some MS/Word documents that MS/Word has trouble opening...

I say Good Day to you, anti-linux-on-desktops zealot!

Re:Let's hope Steam on Linux gathers... steam

[jellomizer]

Yes I have. And still LInux sucks as a Desktop OS.
It is Great for a server OS.
It is Excellent for a Workstation OS.
It is also really good for a beginners OS.

But it isn't good for a Desktop OS.

There is a learning gap between the Newbie user and the Expert User. That Linux distributions doesn't fill. These are people who know how to use the computer beyond word processing and internet. However they are not developers or administrators. For the most part they can add new hardware to their system without much hassle. They can navigate a GUI representation of a file system. They expect a consistent Copy and Paste experience... The Desktop user isn't the Grandma, or the IT Pro, it is the guy in the middle. Linux has gap in its design for that group of users. Sometimes it isn't fully Linux's fault such hacking implementation of drivers that don't work well or at all because the vendors will not play nice. But other times it is just because Linux systems development doesn't have too many non-technical people, who doesn't struggle reading a man page. Or who thinks the command man means something about men.

Re:Let's hope Steam on Linux gathers... steam

[Waccoon]

Well, I for one have been experimenting with various Linux distros over 12 years, and every one of them has given me hell.

My favorite flukes were with Mandrake, where I tried to install some packages, and the manager came to a FULL STOP every time there was a dependency error. After hours of trying to select and match packages manually, I just gave up. That was after people told me such great things about package management and how Mandrake was the most user-friendly distro. More recently, I got fed up with Ubuntu, where I downloaded a LiveCD ISO. After 6 months they took all the web updates offline, so when I tried to install Ubuntu using my 6-month-old CD, attempting to connect to the update service just gave me a ton of 404 Not Found errors, forcing me to download yet another damn ISO. Oh, and that was while I was fighting with a desktop that looked like a rainbow threw up on my screen, due to a ATI graphics driver issue. I never did manage to get a new driver installed, thanks to the broken update links or the availability of a "service pack" I could download to a USB drive.

There are damn good reasons why the year of Linux on the desktop/smartphone/tablet follows the same pattern as practical nuclear fusion, and why Linux bombed so horribly on netbooks. People can talk about network drivers "just working", but the overall experience is like a root canal, especially if your distro is just a few months old. Haughty denial from the Linux community isn't going to fix the problem.

Re:Let's hope Steam on Linux gathers... steam

[Waccoon]

microsoft is making 11.1 exclusive to windows 8 because they know that gamers panned it and they're trying to force them.

I thought MS was just trying to be more like Apple. How much new shit will only work in the absolute newest version of OSX/iOS?

Re:Let's hope Steam on Linux gathers... steam

[ifrag]

Well, for one you don't get the MFC libraries in the express versions. That's probably one of the most significant ones if you are dealing with anything that uses it.

Going forward it's probably not such a huge issue since Microsoft has been trying to transition away from it. I'm not sure what the differences are as far as the new Windows RT in express. I think they are trying to push people into making Metro apps, so the express of 2012 might be geared for just that.

Re:Let's hope Steam on Linux gathers... steam

[ByOhTek]

We put up with it the first time - they did the same thing from XP to Vista (DX 10). Didn't MS give up and port DX10 back to XP anyway?

Re:Let's hope Steam on Linux gathers... steam

[ByOhTek]

I'd argue that only morons will buy Windows 8 RT or Windows 8 on a notebook/desktop (even then there are free 3rd-party downloads to fix the UI screwups, so I wouldn't even say morons). Aside from a few small cosmetic changes, and a few large faux-pas that are easily fixed, it's not really much different from 7 from the UI perspective.

As a tablet OS, (non-RT) it looks like a beef-up of Windows Phone 7, which would actually be rather nice, if it weren't for the limited application pool available (and it the non-RT version doesn't have that limit).

Re:Let's hope Steam on Linux gathers... steam

[Endo13]

Well, amongst all the arguing and such you were the only one who came across as rational and unbiased. BMO in particular made himself look like more of a fool with each new post.

Myself, I'd love to be able to use Linux for my main desktop machine but it's my games that keep me from it, and Steam going to Linux won't help, at least not immediately. If it induces others to follow suit, I could be using Linux exclusively in a couple years. For now though I'm stuck with Windows like you.

Re:Let's hope Steam on Linux gathers... steam

[dbIII]

Time to grow up then. Before you were born many industries embraced open standards which is why for example geophysical files recorded in the 1960s can be read with current software. Microsoft's petty little games with ever-changing closed formats are a step backwards from what was industry practice long before Gates went dumpster diving for the source code for the version of BASIC used at his University.

Re:Let's hope Steam on Linux gathers... steam

[Bill_the_Engineer]

I think when people talk bad about Linux as a desktop that they are referring to the quality of the desktop applications and how they interact with one another. Sure it works fine enough for us and in some cases we can do more work than possible with the mainstream apps. However most people just find the experience lacking.

To make matters more difficult, the applications that are really popular on the Linux platform are eventually ported to other operating systems. This allows them to continue to use a desktop and OS they are familiar with while still being able to use these applications. So with a commercial OS a user is able to work with more polished mainstream applications designed to run natively on their platform on choice, and still be able to use the more powerful open source applications that are written for specific tasks that they need to get done.

Linux still has to make up for the lack of momentum in the desktop segment and while choice of a desktop manager is a good thing it does nothing to help win over converts.

It's not like we are competing against the other OS. At least not in the traditional sense... Well not us old Linux guys. We wanted an OS to do things that we needed done and its popularity will increase by word of mouth. It's not like we have a multimillion dollar PR machine nor do we really need one or the market share that is supposedly gives us.

Re:Let's hope Steam on Linux gathers... steam

[jedidiah]

You could get stuff done on a very limited OS with primitive hardware like a 68k or an 8088. That doesn't mean that it's anything that anyone still wants to do now.

Tablets are the hot new thing now because PCs got useful and boring and software stopped gobbling up cycles before Moore's Law could keep up.

Tablets haven't quite yet caught up to the power of PCs from when that bloat vs power sweet spot happened with PCs. So there will likely be tasks starved for resources on a tablet just as they would be with a 90s PC.

Tablets primarily benefit from being locked down crippled "ecosystems" where it's harder to see the sharp edges because a lot of effort is put into hiding them.

Re:Let's hope Steam on Linux gathers... steam

[jedidiah]

This dirty little secret makes it easier to be a guerilla OpenOffice user in corporate environments. People are so used to Microsoft's screwups that they will tend to interpret any problem you have as an internal compatibility issue within different versions of msoffice.

Some people (and industries) have have even adapted to this crap and moved way from Microsoft and to more standard solutions.

Re:Let's hope Steam on Linux gathers... steam

[jedidiah]

> Everything works in windows.

You're funny.

Your fantasy would have a better audience if you were addressing a forum of complete rubes. That is not the case here.

Re:Let's hope Steam on Linux gathers... steam

[jedidiah]

> My favorite flukes were with Mandrake

That name isn't even in use anymore and hasn't been for a rather long time.

Re:Let's hope Steam on Linux gathers... steam

[jedidiah]

No. I think when people talk bad about Linux on the desktop that they are just repeating someone else's bogus nonsense from 10 years ago. Mac users attacking PCs and Windows have always tended to be like that. They will use arguments that sound like they are 5 or 10 years behind the times.

Re:Let's hope Steam on Linux gathers... steam

[utuk99]

The ribbon is what finally drove me to OpenOffice. Everyone I show OpenOffice to likes it better than Microsoft Office after about 10 minutes. I have even switched a few businesses and my dad's yacht club to it, which is not exactly a hotbeds of open source activity. Microsoft really is open sources best friend some times. I use Windows XP, 7 and several flavors of Linux. I tend to use a lot of open source even on my Windows boxes, not only is it cheaper it is often better designed and has more features. The only reason I still use windows at home is for games on my main computer and blu-rays on my HTPC.

Re:Let's hope Steam on Linux gathers... steam

[Bill_the_Engineer]

No. I think when people talk bad about Linux on the desktop that they are just repeating someone else's bogus nonsense from 10 years ago.

I don't think that is entirely true. Of course you have trolls that roam the comment section and spout off 10 year old talking points. These tactics are common to all fans of any OS, Language, etc. That said, Linux as a desktop is still not compelling enough to convert users from their current OS.

Not to mention Unity, Gnome 3.0, and KDE 4.x are recent developments and in the case of Unity and Gnome there wasn't the usual give the user what they want. Instead they gave them what they believe will make them relevant compared to internet appliances. Wether or not they were correct in their assessment remains to be seen, but for the time being there were a large amount of pushback from their users.

Re:Let's hope Steam on Linux gathers... steam

[RocketRabbit]

PCs are not going anywhere even when Microsoft craters. They may change shape a bit, but the general purpose PC is here to stay.

Look, for example, at the iPad. It's a general purpose computer. Sure, you load applications in a different way than you might on Windows, but this doesn't make it less of a computer. Look also at the desktop and laptops - sales might be slowing but this is not because people don't use them, it's because for 90% or more users any one built in the last decade is good enough for their uses.

Additionally, the cloud will not replace anything. If anything, other than as a way to load balance and reduce IT infrastructure within large organizations, the cloud has gone pretty much nowhere. It will stay as it is, but it will not slowly creep in and replace personal data and computing.

Wait 5 years, nothing really will have changed. This is still basically the 1990s, but everything is smaller. NOT necessarily better.

Re:Let's hope Steam on Linux gathers... steam

[StuartHankins]

All software has deficiencies, and in this case a large portion of it is caused by the need to reverse-engineer Microsoft Office behavior. Without even getting into that topic, and as explained by others, even documents created in one version of Microsoft Office and viewed in another version of Microsoft Office -- even the very next version have problems with word wrapping, frame and picture layout, pair kerning etc.

It's a big mistake to pretend that these issues -- again with different versions of Microsoft products -- don't exist and to pretend that somehow LibreOffice / OpenOffice's inability to precisely mimic individual versions of Microsoft Office is some failure on their part. We would all be much better to have some type of real office document standard so our files appear as originally intended. ODF is superior in this regard: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OpenDocument .

Re:Let's hope Steam on Linux gathers... steam

[Kjella]

No one has time for this.

Sure that gets a +5 but replace $desktop with $distro and say "I tried Linux, it sucked" then you'll get a bunch of people expecting you to have that time. Likewise the people that dismiss your opinion as worthless because you tried it a year ago, expecting people to try a application/distro/OS they don't use every six months or less to see if there's less suckage to have a "valid" opinion which naturally means they're preaching to the choir of current active users. Been there, wasted too much time concluding "No, it's still a turd and your nose is still defective". And when you've been oversold too many times you get a "boy who cried wolf" effect, you don't believe them when they really have made major progress. Been there a few times, discovered "Hey this is great why didn't anyone tell me?" and I realize they did, it just got lost in the noise.

Re:Let's hope Steam on Linux gathers... steam

[strikethree]

I tend to agree with him. I have yet to find a Linux DE that has the right balance between having too many options (KDE) or too few options (GNOME).

I have been dying to ask this of someone for quite some time. I guess you get to be the lucky one:

What is "too many options"? How is it a problem? Do you feel forced to investigate and test all of the options? Are the defaults bad and you do not feel like you can choose properly? I would honestly like to understand the problem here.

I have used KDE. Some of the stuff I wanted to tweak was a bit difficult to find. I considered my difficulties to be an organization problem, not a problem with too many options.

I guess I just do not understand. Please help me understand. Thank you.

Re:Let's hope Steam on Linux gathers... steam

[Waccoon]

Yes. I did say over a period of 12 years. Things got prettier, but they haven't really gotten better.

Re:Let's hope Steam on Linux gathers... steam

[Qu4Z]

I would be somewhat reluctant to mention Acrobat and efficiently in the same sentence.

Re:Let's hope Steam on Linux gathers... steam

[KingMotley]

Add-ins basically. Of course the other editions add things like UML modelling, database schema/data changesets, performance profiling, and some more advanced project starters. It is probably missing the team foundation stuff as well, but even that you can get for free using their cloud team foundation for up to 5 developers.

You get the same editors, intellisense support, help as the paid editions.

Re:Let's hope Steam on Linux gathers... steam

[Trilkin]

I have some bad news: your anecdotal evidence doesn't reflect the rest of the world. Your friends are your friends and thus are more likely to have similar opinions as you. The fact they use Linux as their desktop OS is not surprising. One could easily push family members to do this as well - especially if said family members only ever do most of their work through a web browser. I'm fairly certain I could change over a few of my family members to use Linux Mint or Ubuntu and they wouldn't really know the difference... until they start asking why a specific program they once used in the past isn't there/won't install anymore... or why the new printer they just bought doesn't work... etc.

Try asking some of your non-technical coworkers what they use at home. Ask acquaintances you talk to, but wouldn't consider friends what they use. Ask the ones that don't use a Linux distro (I'd wager most, if not all, of them) why they don't. You'll probably get answers ranging from 'I don't know how' to 'I'd rather run all of the things I use on a daily basis without hassle.' Those aren't bad reasons to use a platform at all. Blind dislike for a company that puts out an obviously usable and popular product just because you think you're the better man for running OSS is a bad reason. Wasn't a good chunk of the argument against Gnome 3 and Unity that there was no good reason to change what's already been proven to work? Funny how that works.

I'm not an anti-Linux-on-desktops zealot at all. I'm just pro-reality: Windows and OSX are the better desktop OSes because they're designed to be and were designed to be right from the ground up. Newer desktop friendly (and mostly Debian-derived) distributions of Linux have certainly come a long way, but they're just not able to compete with the simplicity of Windows or OSX. Anyone who's chosen either platform is already familiar with the desktop and all of the software they use. It's simply a case of 'don't fix what isn't broken.' The only compelling reason to use Linux over either platform at this point is ethos which, when you're trying to get real work done, just isn't good enough.

Re:Let's hope Steam on Linux gathers... steam

[Trilkin]

You could, but why do it like this in the first place when you can just do it through the native software? I understand using OSS as a part of your ethos, but you have to understand that not everybody shares that ethos - they just want to get their work done.

Re:Let's hope Steam on Linux gathers... steam

[bmo]

You could do it individually, but then there have been tools that do this automatically on Linux.

>implying doing this in Linux is not native

PDF is an open standard. TIFF is an open standard. Why the hell do you need a proprietary program, besides OCR (there are like 5 OSS OCRs with a couple of them being very good), to do any of this?

>my ethos

My ethos is practicality and frugality. If I can do it in software that doesn't cost an arm and a leg, then I'm going to do it that way.

It's as simple as feeding the originating document into a script and collecting the finished product. It's like magic. Just like the guy who ranted and raved about how his Adobe product does it, but mine doesn't cost a dime.

The people who are foolish with their money are more than welcome to send it to Adobe.

--
BMO

Re:Let's hope Steam on Linux gathers... steam

[heefeneet]

GNOME which has paid far more attention to usability.

By "paid attention to usability" you mean "forced the developers' One True Way on to everyone and removed all the options".

Re:Let's hope Steam on Linux gathers... steam

[vandamme]

If so, I'm happy. It will accelerate the demise of Microsoft. I hope Ballmer stays at the helm right to the end.

Re:Let's hope Steam on Linux gathers... steam

[hicksw]

No new games plan to use Direct X 11.1. Why? Gamers aren't morons and only morons buy Windows 8 and gaming companies want customers

Careful there. You are reminding MS where developer funding needs to be directed

Polishing unpopular turds can be financially rewarding.

Re:Let's hope Steam on Linux gathers... steam

[badkarmadayaccount]

MS Office - WINE. LibreOffice with appropriate defaults. If KDE's options bother you, don't use them. Have you tried E17 (Sabayon, Bodhi packages, not Ubuntu), Xfce4?

Re:Let's hope Steam on Linux gathers... steam

[hairyfish]

People didn't stop using Windows XP voluntarily.

I did. Eventually. I loved WinXP, still using it right now. I tried Vista and hated it, tried 7 and thought it was the same as Vista. I started a new job recently with a Win7 desktop, but this time around there was a guy at work who was an MS gun. Every time I had a quirk and pet hate he showed how its supposed to work and now I'm a convert. Going back to WinXP from 7 is the same as going back to NT4 from WinXP. aLl it took was some patience and some education. I think this is the part that frustrates most people, they try the new version without really understandng the new way of doing things, then get frustrated becasue they try to do things the old way on a new system. I've just tried Win8 and have the same thoughts about every other new release of MS OSes. I hate it. But being a bit older now, I realise I'll probably only hate it for a while then one day I'll get over the hump and won't look back. The one thing that will prevent anyone from replacing MS is the Apps and integration. There is no replacement for Office or Exchange. SQL maybe but it's a whole world easier than anything else if you already have MS skills and not much DBA experience. IIS maybe but again, if you've already got it and it works with AD, Exchange and SQL seamlessly then you're not going to change simply for the sake of changing. Then there's the myriad of third party apps which only work on MS. Then there the new versions with new features. SQL with Sharepoint and Office 2013 is a killer. We're replacing our expensive proprietary BI solution because MS does this out of the box now. Libre/Open Office doesn't even come close to this functionality I've worked in a few different businesses in my time and every business has a requirement for this type of stuff. MS isn't going anywhere soon.

Well there's 11.1 reasons to use OpenGL

[Dan B.]

As per the subject, this just adds to the reasons for using OpenGL

Re:Well there's 11.1 reasons to use OpenGL

[steelfood]

Great. Now if only the big studios will make the switch.

Indie developers have been using OpenGL for ages. Windows will continue to be the gaming platform of choice so long as Call of Duty and Madden continue to push the version of DirectX necessary.

It's not surprising move though. I believe Microsoft started this with XP (DirectX 9c?), and have been doing it since. There were no negative repercussions then, and I honestly doubt there will be with DirectX 11.1.

Of course, if Windows 8 utterly tanks, as it probably will in the desktop and enterprise market segments, the point is moot. Microsoft will go straight to Windows 9 and DirectX 12 (and pull the same sort of thing there).

Re:Well there's 11.1 reasons to use OpenGL

[Anonymous Coward]

Yeah the only problem is getting developers to support it, and after the 3.x fiasco, with all hands on the tiller plenty of developers are still swearing it off. Though it does seem to be changing with the 4.x version. But it has it's own image to repair among the community first.

Re:Well there's 11.1 reasons to use OpenGL

[Runaway1956]

Solution: don't buy from the big studios. Send them an email telling them that you aren't buying, and tell them why. Inform them that the indies are supplying your needs, with OpenGL compatible games. Problem solved.

Re:Well there's 11.1 reasons to use OpenGL

[Anonymous Coward]

Yes and watch as they laugh at you and continue to sell millions of copies to gamers who don't give a shit whether their game is using OpenGL or not.

Re:Well there's 11.1 reasons to use OpenGL

[humanrev]

But big studios make all the fun games. Sure, indie developers make standouts from time to time (Amnesia, Braid, etc), but I like Deus Ex: Human Revolution and Dishonored. These are way too involved for an indie group to make. And since it's not going to make one lick of difference if I send them an email or not, I'd rather just do what's necessary to play them since we only live once anyway.

Re:Well there's 11.1 reasons to use OpenGL

[Anonymous Coward]

I played Dwarf Fortress before it was cool.

Re:Well there's 11.1 reasons to use OpenGL

[Luckyo]

Vista couldn't do it with major overhaul and upgrade to DX9 in form of DX10 which was Vista exclusive.

DX11.1 improvements are miniscule in terms of actual upgrades to DX11. Win8 is almost as bad in comparison to 7 as Vista was to XP.

I don't really see this working as a reasonable reason for the switch. If it was, we'd have seen the jump back in Vista times.

Re:Well there's 11.1 reasons to use OpenGL

[Yvanhoe]

Well, Valve considers Windows 8 as a threat, ports Steam under linux, put pressure on video card constructors to create better linux port of their drivers. This could very well make OpenGL the future standard.

Re:Well there's 11.1 reasons to use OpenGL

[ThePeices]

As per the subject, this just adds to the reasons for using OpenGL

Good idea. Ill start using OpenGL on all my games from now on.

Oh wait....

Re:Well there's 11.1 reasons to use OpenGL

[Sir_Sri]

No.

This doesn't change anything. At all. Nothing. It's not a reason to do anything. For anyone. Unless you're a microsoft employee, and even then it's probably not relevant.

All DX11.1 does for you is move stereoscopic 3D from vendor specific to native API, which, given trivial stereoscopic 3D is to turn on vendor specifically (it's about 3 lines of code you can copy from a sample). But stereoscopic 3D is such a useless gimmick that you only put it in if for the sake of saying you have it, not because anyone actually seriously uses it. Not that it couldn't be useful, but it's just not an important part of the market right now.

If you make games, seriously make games, you need a Dx code path for 360 support (because that's likely your biggest platform), you probably need an OpenGl path for PS3 support (because that's a huge portion of your market), if you're doing next gen development you need both for the Xbox 3 and PS4, and if you're doing a PC path you can go either way, but you really can't do just one these days. Nor does it matter much, since serious game engines already abstract all that stuff for you, and this changes so little on the engine programming side of things (especially compared to all the other stuff you're worried about related to Windows 8) that you really don't care.

Re:Well there's 11.1 reasons to use OpenGL

[Doctor_Jest]

No, hardcore gamers play Nethack.

Give ME a fucking break...

Re:Well there's 11.1 reasons to use OpenGL

[shutdown -p now]

Good luck doing that on Xbox.

Re:Well there's 11.1 reasons to use OpenGL

[nrook]

I hate to break this to you, but an insignificant number of gamers play Nethack and those that do probably don't go seeking out special OpenGL versions.

You're damn right. All of the real hardcore gamers are too busy playing Crawl to deal with a silly little puzzle game like NetHack.

Re:Well there's 11.1 reasons to use OpenGL

[xigxag]

And the only way W8 is a threat to Valve is if it becomes a competitive delivery platform, i.e., if it succeeds. So all this blustering by Newell is in fact fear that Windows 8 will do well, not that it will crash and burn. It's a vote of confidence.

Re:Well there's 11.1 reasons to use OpenGL

[Waccoon]

This could very well make OpenGL the future standard.

I know I'm playing devil's advocate more than usual, but... if it weren't for DirectX, what would compete with OpelGL to ensure progress?

Re:Well there's 11.1 reasons to use OpenGL

[ByOhTek]

A large number of games I've played from big devs have had OpenGL support. However, they just don't have it on by default, or they require a command line switch to enable it.

Re:Well there's 11.1 reasons to use OpenGL

[bingoUV]

What competes with 802.11 ? Still we have seen a, b, g, n over past few decades. Lots of devices support them, sometimes even before the standard is finalized.

It is a "standard". People using Microsoft software don't know what that means, but it does mean something.

Re:Well there's 11.1 reasons to use OpenGL

[Yvanhoe]

OpenGL official standards has always competed against non-standard extensions or vendor-specific functions. To be fair, DirectX is not really competing against OpenGL on any other platform than the Windows PC. On Linux, on the XBox, on android, on iOS, all have their favorite standard, there is no competition in most places.

Re:Well there's 11.1 reasons to use OpenGL

[Doctor_Jest]

Which doesn't invalidate my point. Hardcore is a term that varies depending upon who you ask. I don't (and never will) consider those who mindlessly play FPSes hours on end in multiplayer slur-fests on XBox Live "hardcore" anything, except perhaps hardcore assholes.

Play a game that doesn't reward stupid behavior. When you die in Nethack, you die. No respawn... no apologies. :) That is hardcore.

Re:Well there's 11.1 reasons to use OpenGL

[bingoUV]

Replied to a different post earlier by mistake :

What competes with 802.11 ? Still we have seen a, b, g, n over past few decades. Lots of devices support them, sometimes even before the standard is finalized.

It is a "standard". People using Microsoft software don't know what that means, but it does mean something.

Re:Well there's 11.1 reasons to use OpenGL

[bingoUV]

Replied to the wrong post

What do you expect?

[RobinH]

If a company releases a new product, they have to add new features to get you to buy it. Why add features to a product people have already bought when they're trying to push the new shiny?

The real story would be if they didn't continue with security updates and bug fixes, but I doubt that's the case.

Re:What do you expect?

[Anonymous Coward]

What do I expect? I expect to be treated with respect. If Microsoft wants me to buy their new shiny, they can make it so I want to buy the new shiny. Dashing my expectations with regard to supporting their existing products does not motivate me to spend more money on their newest products. Quite the opposite.

I don't consider upgrades to Direct X to be "new features" even if they are, in fact, new features. I'd be just as likely to call security updates and bug fixes new features. Regardless of the reasonableness of my expectations, those are my expectations, and if Microsoft wants me as a Windows 8 customer they will have to be a little more considerate of my expectations regarding Windows 7.

Re:What do you expect?

[Spaseboy]

It goes beyond adding features; it's also about allocating resources to build compatibility for multiple versions of the OS, test on multiple versions and support multiple versions. "The new shiny" is not the issue. Windows 8 is Microsoft's upgrade path, if you want to continue to be current, you upgrade. Windows 8 has not made Windows 7 obsolete, it just means you need to be happy where you are.

Re:What do you expect?

[Spaseboy]

Well, you can always switch to Linux or Mac, I hear both of those are more much responsive than Microsoft when it comes to meeting expectations about what a customer wants. /sarcasm

Re:What do you expect?

[h00manist]

If a company releases a new product, they have to add new features to get you to buy it.

Indeed, Windows is a consumer product, made by a corporation that has stated many times it plans on getting everyone to upgrade everything fairly often. Planned obsolescence is the plan, plainly stated. Many other operating systems don't fall into those categories. Choose.

Re:What do you expect?

[number6x]

I use Linux so I'm no longer an authority on Windows, but why switch? Can't you just use Windows 7 for a few years? You don't have to get a new computer or update your OS just because something new has come out. If Windows 7 works for you keep using it.

In Linux land gnome 3 was a terrible interface. However each month developers came out with tweeks, applets and extensions that made it useful for users. I just kept using XFCE, but the point is don't worry about Windows 8. Either it will become workable, or it will be replaced by Windows 9.

Windows XP didn't hit it's stride until SP2, so relax. Use what you are using and wait it out.

It could also be that this version of Direct X is Windows 8 specific. I don't use Windows, but is it common to have that small 'a' subscript in a release. It sure seems odd to me. Like it is some kind of sub-release targeted ad a specific sub architecture of Windows.

Re:What do you expect?

[fustakrakich]

Eh, just like Apple... And you know what they say about imitation being the sincerest form of flattery... Personally, I would prefer to see them lose their property 'rights' when they refuse to license further use of their software. All unsupported systems should be taken into the public domain.

Re:What do you expect?

[Runaway1956]

Hmmm - I don't know enough about Apple to argue your comparison. I sort of thought they actually offered some new stuff from time to time, like the iPhone 5. I could be wrong though. I'm not an Apple fanbois though, so I'll let you slide with your comparison.

Unsupported systems in the public domain? I'll agree. Unfortunately, congress seems to have been bought off by the likes of Disney, and both copyright and patent protection are slated for eternal protections. If time were to end, the parasites would be scrambling to extend those laws into whatever passes for time.

Re:What do you expect?

[man_of_mr_e]

You don't have to get a new computer or update your OS just because something new has come out.

NOW you tell me.

Re:What do you expect?

[0123456]

Why do you expect Microsoft to give away one of the more attractive new features of the OS?

It's called 'customer service'.

Oh, sorry, I forgot we were talking about Microsoft.

Re:What do you expect?

[humanrev]

Man. You are so different to the folks I'm referring to in my sig. Congrats on being sensible. :)

Re:What do you expect?

[maxwell demon]

If a company releases a new product, they have to add new features to get you to buy it. Why add features to a product people have already bought when they're trying to push the new shiny?

Because if you disappoint people with your support of older versions, they might choose to not buy your next version, but switch to a competitor. Sure, people buying your latest stuff it the ideal situation for you, but people using your older stuff (and then, in five years, upgrading to another new version) is better than people switching away from your stuff altogether.

Re:What do you expect?

[TheGoodNamesWereGone]

And so are the shills

WINE

[Anonymous Coward]

Wine has a Direct X implementation. Wouldn't it be hilarious if they Wine on Windows working well enough to make older versions of Windows able to run modern Windows applications?

Re:WINE

[amiga3D]

No

Re:WINE

[corychristison]

I see no reason it couldn't work, provided they had the resources (developers and testers).

The only down side is Microsoft has the advantage here with their usual "lets create and use undocumented system calls to make this really hard to reverse engineer" tactic.

I love the WINE project for their effort but there will come a time that businesses will simply start development with cross platform in mind. With projects like wxGTK, Qt, and OpenGL making that process easier I see no reason why they wouldn't utilize them.

Re:WINE

[Nethemas the Great]

That's about as stupid as the whole HTML5/JavaScript thing in the name of cross-platform compatibility. The solution isn't to keep piling on more and more layers of abstraction. Each layer represents new compromises and needless expense. Just because a few college kids one day said "you know what would be cool...?" doesn't make it a good idea. I'm as much a fan of being able to make my toaster boot Linux as the next guy, but some things are better left as hobbies. Stop the god damn partisanship, stop the damn religious wars, stop the damn profiteering and develop a set of standard APIs that may be implemented and run as close to metal as is practicable while allowing the flexibility to utilize whatever tools, technologies, and languages desired. VMWare, Sun's JVM and Microsoft's CLR were excellent starting points. Now where the hell is the synthesis, what happened to the next generation?

Re:WINE

[Nethemas the Great]

Yet there seems to be a sufficient consensus around HTML5/JavaScript to develop a sufficiently coherent set of standards. There's enough demand for a cross-platform platform to inspire the motivation to twist and contort a technology never originally scoped to the demands and expectations now placed upon it. Nearly every technology resting upon HTTP has from their very inception been a shoehorn to work around some manner of artificial limitation. It's the ultimate incarnation of squeezing a sponge with artificial restrictions and watching workarounds wring out. So many misleading promises have been made and Kool-Aid consumed by CTOs and ilk that even Jimmy Jones would be envious. HTML5/JavaScript is incredibly far from "easily possible" and yet everyone you can think of is pushing it. If the same level of resources that have been invested into making HTML5/JavaScript work would have been placed into a close-to-metal next generation synthesis of the kinds of technologies I mentioned you had better believe we would have accomplished it and so very much more.

Vista and DX10

[Anonymous Coward]

Microsoft used the same trick to market Vista to gamers with DirectX 10.

Re:Vista and DX10

[deniable]

Yes, they did and an early exclusive was 'Shadowrun'. Upgrade to Vista to run a half-baked tactical shooter knock-off of a property they got with the FASA interactive purchase.

Re:Vista and DX10

[mjwx]

Yes, and this is why games are still being made DX9 compatible. It wasn't until Windows 7 gained some traction that DX10 actually became viable though even today making a DX10/11 only game is not a good prospect given the spectacular failures of DX10 only games.

DX 10/11 will be around for some time unfortunately.

Re:Vista and DX10

[Sir_Sri]

Yes, and this is why games are still being made DX9 compatible.

Uh.. no. That is because you use the same engine for the 360 and PC, and the 360 is basically DX9. If you're doing a PC only version windows xp is still 40% of the gamer market (steam hardware survey), and well... you make dx 9.

Directx 10 wasn't really very useful. Dx 11 is pretty good, I could see the Xbox 3 using DX11 (or 11.1 but that distinction won't matter), which will kind of lock in Dx11 as the defacto standard for 4 or 5 years until DX12/13 and windows 9 start to impact the market.

Re:Vista and DX10

[mjwx]

Yes, and this is why games are still being made DX9 compatible.

Uh.. no. That is because you use the same engine for the 360 and PC, and the 360 is basically DX9. If you're doing a PC only version windows xp is still 40% of the gamer market (steam hardware survey), and well... you make dx 9.

So basically you agree with me and that "Uh, no" bit was a typo.

XP is still a large enough market segment to ignore. If you're producing an indie game, you might not even bother with DX10 and up.

Re:Vista and DX10

[citizenr]

Yes, and this is why games are still being made DX9 compatible. It wasn't until Windows 7 gained some traction that DX10 actually became viable though even today making a DX10/11 only game is not a good prospect given the spectacular failures of DX10 only games.

There are DX9 games that only work Vista and up. New X-Com is one of them, whole game uses ONE call to ONE Vista specific file function (to get a directory listing or something). Its almost as M$ paid them to lock XP out.

Re:Vista and DX10

[lister king of smeg]

you mean like the Halo 2 for vista that the only reason it won't run of xp is because it runs a operating system check that can be fixed with a simple hack.

Re:Vista and DX10

[Sir_Sri]

No one ever bothered with anything serious DX10 except microsoft for Halo. There are some guys getting into it now because it's not worth bothering with XP support for anything with serous performance (dirt shadowrun and NFS titles), but if you're making indie stuff you may as well stick with XP as well.

No, it wasn't a typo. DX10 weren't failures and people aren't making DX9 class games not because Dx11 isn't a good prospect, it's because PC gaming is a second thought to the market at all. That has nothing to do with directx. As a developer you just don't care about the PC market. If you have to do all of your game for a console you're not going to rewrite the game in Dx11. Directx 11 lets you do some fantastic stuff, but thats the problem, you just can't do it on a 360, so why bother? This isn't a failure of Dx10, this is a failure of the 360 and PS3 (and even then, not really a failure given when they were made). The decision is driven by the console market, not the windows market.

Sure, on PC only games you have a DX11 and DX9 market, but that's because people on windows XP aren't upgrading - and windows 7 is demonstrably better, so your customers are deliberately choosing not to upgrade. You can try and sell to them, or not. Vista being a failure doesn't factor into this at all, if your customers won't move to windows 7 from XP you have to decide if graphics performance is important (windows 7 only now, since you can count on an nvidia 8000 series equivalent or better, and those are 6 years old).

You presented it as as though A: directx 10 games were failures because they are dx10 (not true, they weren't relevant in the PC market because basically the only game in that category was a Halo re-release way later than the console) and B) that these decisions have much to do with the windows market. They usually don't. We're starting to see DX10 and 11 games really hit the market as of last year because finally we're getting to the point where studios are trying to prepare themselves for future consoles and the PC is a useful testbed for that.

Re:Vista and DX10

[Gaygirlie]

If you're doing a PC only version windows xp is still 40% of the gamer market (steam hardware survey)

How old a survey are you looking at? The October 2012 survey places Windows XP at 11%, with Windows 7 32-bit at 14% and Windows 7 64-bit at 59%. Of those 11% of Windows XP users a large bunch is probably really Wine - users under Linux (the Windows XP - mode of Wine is still largely the most complete and compatible one)

Doesn't matter

[santax]

The big game-companies and the indies know that only newly bought pc's and laptops will have win8. Nobody else is going to make the switch and I assume a majority of new buyers will 'downgrade' to win7. So they won't develop for it. Maybe they use the api as a extra option, but they all will make sure their games run on win7. Because win8 is going to be the new ME/Vista. Nice on tablets, but keep that crap away from my desktop.

Re:Doesn't matter

[reboot246]

I have mod points, but I didn't see an option for "Idiot".

Re:Doesn't matter

[Cwix]

I just bought a new computer. I chose the Win 7 option over Win 8.

Frankly I am not interested in it. I have used it, I have a computer still running the RC. Just not interested in it. It is Win 7 with a tablet GUI slapped on the front.
The fact is the new GUI does nothing to increase efficiency. Frankly it seems to me that it is a marketing ploy to force people to become familiar with the interface. This is in the hopes that once people get comfortable with it that they will choose the Windows tablets.

I do not like it when people try to trick/force me into something. No thanks.

Re:Doesn't matter

[Bremic]

Wait... Microsoft have finally developed a File Transfer Progress Bar? And it works?
Took 25 years to catch up with XTerm, but I am glad they finally made it.

Re:Doesn't matter

[Psyborgue]

I'm running it right now and i'd have to agree. I tried to convince my partner not to install it on our shared box, but he's a windows developer and a huge fan of all things Microsoft. I have to say there are a few nicer things, mostly under the hood, like the ability to mount ISOs without daemon tools, but other than that the changes are mostly a hindrance to a smooth workflow. I don't like the idea of having a start screen. I can do less with tiles than I could with the start menu where, for example, a given frequently used application would show me a list of recent documents. That functionality is now gone. It wouldn't be so bad if the interface was actually useful but they actually removed functionality to make way for some theoretical "tablet computing" boom, which will probably never come. My guess is either MS is going to fire a whole lot of people and bring back the start menu in windows 9 or customers are going to get frustrated with this assholery and switch to Mac OS. Linux? I wish, but I can't see that happening.

I still can't tell the difference betwen DX9 and10

[Hadlock]

Supposedly the big draw for Vista was the coming of DX10 and all that entailed. Side by side comparisons of DX9 vs DX10 were so minor the magazines (yes, those still existed in 2006) had to draw red circles around the detail, they made wireframe renders of DiRT so you could see all the extra triangles in the flags and water... that you couldn't see without the help, along with paragraphs explaining how what you couldn't see was so high tech.
 
I certainly can't tell the difference between DX10 and DX11, and 11.1a has got to be so minor as to be ignored by developers -- why would you want to alienate your customer base like that? Like microsoft, they're in the business to make money too. Whatever gains were had with the tessellation improvements in DX10 were offset by the improvements in technology; it's just too hard to tell the difference between DX versions these days.
 
Has rendering technology finally matured?

Standard Operating Procedure

[Yarhj]

Isn't this basically what they did back with Vista and 7? After the legacy-support nightmare (from Microsoft's perspective) that was XP I expect Microsoft is tired of supporting old software on old systems. I can't say that I blame them -- at some point you just have to draw a line in the sand and say "I'm not supporting 5.25" floppies anymore."

We can argue about exactly when they should stop supporting old OSes, but at some point it makes sense to move resources from your old product to your new product.

Re:Standard Operating Procedure

[Threni]

> We can argue about exactly when they should stop supporting old OSes, but at some point it makes sense to
> move resources from your old product to your new product.

We're arguing that windows 7 is not an `old os` and that its unrealistic to expect people who've bought a computer 2 months ago to now buy another one, or pay for an upgrade they don't want just to take advantage of a new graphics subsystem which would work perfectly well under Windows 7. If people voted with their feet and refused to buy windows 8 you'd see this backported before Christmas.

I only hope this spurs support for OpenGL (as used on every mobile device which supports 3d) and Linux.

Re:Standard Operating Procedure

[edxwelch]

> I expect Microsoft is tired of supporting old software on old systems
funny that OpenGL supports XP without any problems.

Re:Standard Operating Procedure

[gagol]

Says the clueless anonymous cowards who can't even write two words without a typo. Way to lose all credibility!

Re:Standard Operating Procedure

[Hadlock]

Yes, I pointed out in the very first sentence of the post you replied to that this is what they did with Vista.
 
-1, low content
-1, redundant

Re:Standard Operating Procedure

[Linsaran]

No, one is physical hardware and one is software but they will both eventually become obsolete. At some point you have to say enough is enough. Sure you CAN continue to support and fix and patch things that are 'obsolete' by modern standards, but you have to ask why bother? Sure you CAN fix up a 1989 dodge stratus when it breaks and make it work again, but the parts are likely hard to come by, expensive, and the car isn't exactly a classic or otherwise valuable, so the question becomes is it worth it?

Re:Standard Operating Procedure

[Osgeld]

or you can jump off a cliff just cause, which is what 8 is to a tee

So?

[alen]

Anything out there requires it?

Nope?

Non issue

Unless the new os sees adoption developers won't care

Re:So?

[e065c8515d206cb0e190]

Windows XP support will stop in 2014. It seems strange that Win 7 updates to DirectX would stop in 2012.

Re:So?

[Billly Gates]

It is more complicated than that. DirectX requires WDDM which is aero and 3D composition GPU support starting with DX 10. WDDM 1.2 is not compatible with any other kernel. A rewrite would be needed that would make WIndows 7 not Windows 7 anymore and break video and CAD software and piss off the corporate users.

DirectX 11.1 uses this in an abstraction layer.

This is why IE 9 is not available for XP. It has nothing to do with MS forcing users to upgrade. Its smooth graphics and font rendering require all that to make it smoother than FF or Chrome which rely on DirectX 9. IE 10 as a result is Win 8 only at the moment until it is rewritten for the older WDDM 1.1 and DIrectX11.

Re:So?

[klingers48]

There is a certain understandable level of expectation from customers for a certain number of years' worth of support when they lay down cash.

14 years for Windows XP? Maybe a little excessive... But Windows 7 is only 3 years old. We shouldn't have to be obligated to follow market-driven, uncomfortable and paradigm-shifting upgrade cycles that are largely unnecessary for our own needs (with all associated unnecessary time and financial costs) on a timetable that short just to get functional upgrades to graphics APIs that only class as a point-release.

The whole thing just seems a little grubby to me.

Re:So?

[PopeRatzo]

It is more complicated than that.

What, are you new here?

That is NOT how we react to Microsoft stories,

First of all, you didn't use the proper "M$" when referring to Microsoft, and on top of that you tried to be reasonable and did not bring up throwing chairs or monkey boy or Bob or even mention BSDs one time.

And not a single cuss word.

I'm not sure you and Slashdot are a good fit.

Re:So?

[Billly Gates]

It is more complicated than that.

What, are you new here?

That is NOT how we react to Microsoft stories,

First of all, you didn't use the proper "M$" when referring to Microsoft, and on top of that you tried to be reasonable and did not bring up throwing chairs or monkey boy or Bob or even mention BSDs one time.

And not a single cuss word.

I'm not sure you and Slashdot are a good fit.

How about ...

It is more complicated than that thanks to the retarded monkeys at M$ that they call developers. Inferior to OpenGL, DirectX requires WDDM (an evil scheme to implement DRM to satisfy Hollywood, destroy the western economy, and is also shown to cause cancer in rats in some studies) which is aero and 3D composition GPU support starting with DX 10. FUCKING WDDM 1.2 is not compatible with any other kernel except SCO Xenix aka Openserver that Balmer stole and renamed Vista .... A rewrite would be needed that would make WIndows 7 not Windows 7 anymore and break video and CAD software and piss off the corporate users which was done on purpose to make M$ more money and to satisfy Sinsosky's Saddist fetishes.

DirectX 11.1 uses this in an abstraction layer brilliantly thought through by Balmer throwing a chair at a Window at a Windows and seeing the hole giving a visual metaphor of how much the aero glass needed the abstraction by the ratio of the hole size.

This is why IE 9 is not available for XP as MS thought Windows XP too good to make a decent OS. It has nothing to do with MicroShaft forcing users to upgrade. Its smooth graphics and font rendering require all that to make it smoother than FF or Chrome which rely on DirectX 9. IE 6 still has the best so far as Sinsosky's just orgasmed thinking of the webmasters who have to support it!! IE 10 as a result is Win 8 only at the moment until it is rewritten for the older WDDM 1.1 and DIrectX11 which will destroy the whole internet and require each SSL certificate user to purchase a SQL License ala Oracle RDMS style with an oath to sell their children into slavery. ... then the talent agent sat there for the longest time. He said hmm that is an interesting product what do you all call it?

Balmer: THE ARISTROCRATS!!!

Ok how was this? Can I get my slashdot card back now?

Re:So?

[Hadlock]

I'm sure the new Xbox 720 that's coming in fall/winter/xmas 2013 will have a bunch of "hot new titles" which will end up with PC ports... Borderlands 3, Skyrim 2, Quake 5, Halo 5, Gotham Racing 9 etc etc which will all require DX 11.1a because that's what will be the native environment for the Xbox 720 dev kits. The 360 will forever support DX9 which is largely why PCs weren't affected by DX10 etc due to the huge number of console ports. Once DX11 is enshrined as the new console standard, there'll be a bigger rush for computer owners to be in compliance so that they can play the latest and greatest games.

Re:So?

[MonkeyBoy]

Really, I don't know what all the fuss is about. So I threw a few chairs, haven't we all?

Re:So?

[hairyfish]

It is more complicated than that.

We don't like your common sense in here. Just admit that that Windows 8 will be the death of MS just like Win 95 was, and Win2000 and Win XP and Office 2007 and we can all feel good about ourselves...

Re:So?

[segedunum]

It is more complicated than that. DirectX requires WDDM which is aero and 3D composition GPU support starting with DX 10. WDDM 1.2 is not compatible with any other kernel. A rewrite would be needed....

I'll I'm hearing is "Blah, blah, blah, blah" over reasons why backwards compatibility can't be done. It was done in the past, certainly when sensible people like Raymond Chen were in control. Microsoft have lost that understanding many years ago.

A rewrite would be needed that would make WIndows 7 not Windows 7 anymore and break video and CAD software and piss off the corporate users.

Bollocks.

The reason why backwards compatibility is important is that when an application developer uses a new API they want to know that it is going to be available for a large proportion of their target users. For a new version of Windows that isn't the case. Windows 7, Windows Vista and even Windows XP will still be used by a lot of people for a long time so an application developer will look for new APIs to be ported to those systems first. That means that developers are going to be disinclined to use new APIs unless there is a sufficient userbase, or they do twice the work and port to two or even more APIs in order not to screw over their userbase and their bottom line. Either that or they could simply drop Microsoft's APIs and use something like OpenGL, which miraculously seem to work even amongst different versions of Windows.

In turn backporting APIs helps Microsoft in that it provides a clear path and an installed base of applications that makes upgrading to a new version of Windows easy. It's all circular. This is why Microsoft has had a tough time getting people off Windows XP. Nothing has changed. Even worse, Windows 8 now has a brand new interface that no one is writing applications for largely because there is no userbase.

This is why IE 9 is not available for XP. It has nothing to do with MS forcing users to upgrade.

Bollocks. The irony is that it hasn't forced users to upgrade.

Re:So?

[PopeRatzo]

Ok how was this?

A masterpiece. Five stars. Especially the punch line which actually made me gasp with joy.

Re:So?

[RivenAleem]

I take it you totally missed the user's name. He's obviously fanboi or something. You can't expect the usual M$ bashing out of M$ fanbois!

And no, I'm not serious (or trolling), I do agree with GP.

Re:So?

[paulkoan]

You are kidding right? While everything you describe is true, the decision to exclude backward compatibility in WDDM was made to force an upgrade path, it has no technical foundation - it is purely a commercial strategy. Even MS can't design libraries that bad unintentionally.

So?

[Bogtha]

I'm hardly a Microsoft fan, but I don't expect them to just keep churning out new software for their old products. Why should they support older versions of Windows for new versions of their software?

Didn't work with Vista

[Anonymous Coward]

The baseline requirement in nearly all games being released today is still DX9, because that's what XP supports. MS absolutely failed in trying to leverage gaming requirements as a means to pawn off unwanted upgrades on users. Because of that previous failure, DX10/11 still feels new to most people and they won't be demanding upgrades for it anytime soon. In the meantime, the delay in new DX feature adoption gives OpenGL-based open source/indie game developers time to catch up, just as before. And more OpenGL means less dependence on Windows as a whole, so this is a win-win-win situation.

Just like tying new IE releases to Windows upgrades. Chrome, Firefox, etc. cannot thank MS enough for that.

Re:Didn't work with Vista

[Luckyo]

They're DX9 because that's what XBOX360 essentially "sorta kinda" renders with. It makes no sense costs-wise to add PC-only DX11 features into ports beyond bare minimum, if even that.

Re:Didn't work with Vista

[edxwelch]

Not true anymore. About 50% of upcoming new games require direct X 10 as minimum, for example: Assassin's Creed III, Call of Duty: Black Ops II, Company of Heroes 2, Total War: Shogun 2 Fall of the Samurai, Ghost Recon: Future Soldier, XCOM: Enemy Unknown

Re:Didn't work with Vista

[Jesus_666]

I wonder if game developers also spend half their time cursing Microsoft for forcing them to code against an ancient product because the newer versions are tied to OS releases with less than total market penetration...

Re:Didn't work with Vista

[zyzko]

Not actually true if you go through your own list - XCOM and CoD black ops 2 work fine on DX9. XCOM requires Vista for some reason, CoD doesn't.

-ka

Re:I still can't tell the difference betwen DX9 an

[Anonymous Coward]

Rendering technology has been pretty mature for a few years now. Still some possibility it might start changing again, but on balance my guess is that we have reached stability.

Few titles will use DirectX 11.1 then

[GoodnaGuy]

From a commercial point of view, when you release software on windows, you want to be able to target the most people possible. As most people won't have windows 8 for a while, no ones going to develop for it. Personally I am still using XP on my home computer and have found no problems with it. I bet theres quite a few people still on XP. Most software still runs perfectly well, plus its hardware requirements are lower.

Re:I still can't tell the difference betwen DX9 an

[SOOPRcow]

It's not just about visuals, it's also about performance. It is now much cheaper (GPU utilization wise) to do today what was done yesterday. Also, keep in mind that a lot of games don't have that great of visuals because they limit themselves to match consoles. The Call of Duty franchise is a perfect example of this. Anyway, take a look at this to see what is new. http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/windows/desktop/hh404562(v=vs.85).aspx Also, this is what games could be doing: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=duSIE2TkpH4

New WDDM version is the reason

[humanrev]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Windows_Display_Driver_Model#WDDM_1.2

Sounds like a key feature of DirectX 11.1, the stereoscopic 3D rendering, is a feature of WDDM 1.2 and given WDDM 1.2 is only available in Windows 8, that kinda ties DirectX 11.1 to it as well.

Windows 7 uses WDDM 1.1. Could Microsoft safely update this to version 1.2 such that DirectX 11.1 could be made available for it as well? Probably (Microsoft developed it all, so there's no reason why they couldn't). Would it be a worthwhile investment for them to do so? Probably not; they're having enough trouble getting people to want to use Windows 8 as it is - forcing people to shift to it in any way possible, no matter how slimey, is not above them.

I doubt it'll matter much though - you'd have to be particularly crazy to develop a game that requires DirectX 11.1 any time soon. especially given the backlash against Windows 8.;

Re:New WDDM version is the reason

[SplashMyBandit]

OpenGL has had support for stereoscopic rendering *forever*. OpenGL works on Windows (XP to 8), Linux, Mac, Unix and almost all embedded devices (eg phone; athoguh that is the OpenGL ES variant). Requiring an O/S upgrade for a trivial feature increase in DirectX shows just how borked the designs of DX and Windows are.

Re:New WDDM version is the reason

[Heir Of The Mess]

Just thought I'd add to your bit that says:

you'd have to be particularly crazy to develop a game that requires DirectX 11.1 any time soon

Given a pragmatic developer I can't see how that would happen, unless they were doing a tech demo. Most of the DirectX utility and sample code sets up the device like this:

1. Try initializing Directx9
2. Try initializing Directx10
3. Try initializing Directx11

so now you add:

1. Try initializing Directx11.1

All the fixed function stuff is gone now. You do your own object-local-to-word transform in the vertex shader, and then the world-to-view transform using the projection matrix. If you have stereoscopic rendering, then you have 2 projection matricies in the shaders.
Thus in the above tests you get back what version of DirectX is running, and load the corresponding set of shaders for your world, lighting and material renderers. You'd need the option to turn on or off stereoscopic rendering anyway, so it makes having an exclusive Directx11.1 renderer highly implausible.

Re:New WDDM version is the reason

[humanrev]

Well by the time that happens, Windows 8 will either have been (officially) patched to incorporate less Metro and more traditional desktop UI (or provide the option to do so anyway) or Windows 9 will have come out and strip out Metro as a failed experiment.

Either way, if it still requires moving from Windows 7 I'm OK with that, since I never buy Windows and it's damn easy to pirate if you know what you're doing.

Stereoscopic 3D

[dagamer34]

Honestly, the only thing important to DirectX 11.1 besides some optimizations is a standardized way to support 3D instead of proprietary nVidia 3D vision and AMD HD3D. And if you don't care about S3D, then 11.1 is a non issue. Sounds like a bunch of FUD to me. Regardless, until you see a bunch of DirectX 11.1 exclusive games and DirectX 11 support is dropped (which will never happen), people are ranting about nothing.

Re:Stereoscopic 3D

[humanrev]

I'm not sure you understand. The whole point of DirectX is that it allows for a standard API that graphics card vendors and developers can rely upon. This way, you don't have to make dedicated NVIDIA or ATI or Intel code paths to deal with the specific implementation of those vendor's features (something that's STILL an issue with OpenGL extensions).

NVIDIA and ATI have their own proprietary implementations of stereoscopic 3D, and this can be a headache for developers. So, if DirectX takes control over the stereoscopic 3D API, developers can then target DirectX 11.1's implementation of stereoscopic 3D and all NVIDIA and ATI have to worry about is how to modify their drivers to make it work on their GPUs.

Re:Stereoscopic 3D

[SplashMyBandit]

I'm afraid you don't understand the point of OpenGL extensions at all. It is OpenGL that is designed to be the standard API on all platforms. Extensions allow new features to be used that are not yet covered by the latest standard (now refreshed at pretty much an annual rate). That means you can get features sooner (with DirectX you have to wait until Microsoft are ready to release a new operating system, since that is now their modus operandi). The OpenGL use of extensions is a *feature* not a limitation. The OpenGL *standard* version now has more features than DirectX, and works the same across all platforms. Yet people still buy into the whole DirectX nonsense. If you are developing OpenGL (as I do) you are already set up for the future changes in computing (the shift to mobile and iPads) - it is only dinosaurs who can't see the writing on the wall and still promote DirectX.

Re:ALL GAME DEVS!

[Anonymous Coward]

WE WILL NOT BE USING WINDOWS 8!

I'm already using Windows 8. Yes it works fine you luddites. Speak for yourself, thanks.

They did it with Vista, too

[Rix]

And no one bought that any more than they'll be buying 8.

Careful what you wish for

[MrEricSir]

Instead of worrying about DirectX, you can worry about which versions of which distro has a driver for your graphics hardware.

But sure, the grass is always greener and all that.

Re:Careful what you wish for

[nschubach]

Why would you worry about which version has your graphics drivers? Ubuntu, which will be the only distro for the near future with Steam support, will have the major drivers available. If you choose to use another, it's up to you to get it to work until they decide to branch out to another distribution.

http://blogs.valvesoftware.com/linux/steamd-penguins/

Why Ubuntu? There are a couple of reasons for that. First, we’re just starting development and working with a single distribution is critical when you are experimenting, as we are. It reduces the variability of the testing space and makes early iteration easier and faster. Secondly, Ubuntu is a popular distribution and has recognition with the general gaming and developer communities. This doesn’t mean that Ubuntu will be the only distribution we support. Based on the success of our efforts around Ubuntu, we will look at supporting other distributions in the future.

Re:Careful what you wish for

[MrEricSir]

Right, but Ubuntu will only have drivers for certain GPUs. If yours isn't one of them, forget it.

Re:Careful what you wish for

[Nerdfest]

... so the makers of those GPUs get rewarded with money. Others may see some benefit in providing Linux source drivers to get some of this money. It needs to start somewhere, and the big problem up until this point, is there wasn't enough reason to. With so much being web-based now, Microsoft trying the Apple-style lock-in on the desktop, and now this, there's never been a better time.

Re:Careful what you wish for

[SplashMyBandit]

Right, but Ubuntu will only have drivers for certain GPUs. If yours isn't one of them, forget it.

This is no different to Windows. Windows driver support is especially poor if you have a GPU older than 3 years. The reality is that Windows has better support for new hardware than Linux, but the complete reverse is true for older hardware.

Re:Careful what you wish for

[Sir_Sri]

What decade are you living in?

Since the unified driver architectures of the mid 2000's both ATI and nVIDIA just support everything. It's only brand new cards where driver support is sketchy, but that's only ever a short term problem.

Driver support is only bad in windows if you have a directx 8 class card, and for that you're talking about 8 year old parts at this point.

 

Re:Careful what you wish for

[armanox]

I can't speak for nvidia, but all of ATi's DX 9 cards are unsupported. I had a hell of a time getting an XPress 200M working in Windows 8 when I tested it out.

Re:Careful what you wish for

[Sir_Sri]

XPress 200M is a 2004 part, so sure, technically DX9, but it's literally an 8 year old part, what did you expect?

If you're expecting windows 8 support (or any support) for 8 year old hardware you're living in a fantasy land.

I hit their http://support.amd.com/us/gpudownload/windows/Legacy/Pages/radeonaiw_vista64.aspx?type=2.4.1&product=2.4.1.3.13&lang=English

Most of that stuff works under windows 7 but is officially unsupported and you aren't ever going to get the full featureset given the new driver model in Vista/DX10, and keep in mind the last update for those cards is from february of 2010.

When you're talking mobile from that era, I'll grant you I'm slightly off. The mobile parts are supported by the manufacturer not AMD, so without omega drivers you're probably SOL. But still. It's been 8 years and you're trying to run a week old OS on it. It might be worth a hardware upgrade first.

Re:Careful what you wish for

[maxwell demon]

So in the future, it will not be booting Windows for games and Linux for work, but booting Ubuntu for games and Mint for work?

Re:Careful what you wish for

[SplashMyBandit]

On the flip side, even if you can't upgrade your driver on Windows, you can still run most new software on a 10 year old version of the OS.

I think you missed the point of the article and our comments. The point is that Microsoft are requiring operating system upgrades just for minor graphics updates. This means you *cannot* run new DirectX 11.1 or 10 software on older versions of Windows (that is, otherwise functional Win XP) - which is contra to your statement.

Re:Careful what you wish for

[hairyfeet]

So you can enjoy their ads and pandering for money? sign me up! BTW I wouldn't be pinning any hopes on Ubuntu, after Shuttleworth closed the wallet they have been frantically throwing crap at the wall trying to get enough revenue to actually pay the bills and so far have come up short.

My prediction? Ubuntu dead in 2, maybe sooner, just depends on how many will actually click through the Amazon ads. Since even their own forums are filled with "How to remove the Amazon ads in Ubuntu" my guess is there won't be many, not to mention its a lawsuit waiting to happen since there are schools and families using Ubuntu and in the most retarded move they could have made they chose Amazon who doesn't filter shit. there have already been several complaints of kids looking for innocent files and getting porn, somebody is gonna sue their asses off, especially when Amazon's own terms of service say its for those over 18. Has anybody seen a "You must be 18 to use Ubuntu" on Canonical's website? me neither, they are practically begging for someone to play lawsuit lotto and take what little is left of Canonical's money.

Re:Careful what you wish for

[Robert Zenz]

[citation needed]

Re:Careful what you wish for

[symbolset]

Typically if you have Linux, old drivers aren't deprecated ever. If they ever worked, they continue to do so. So the latest Linux always supports the oldest gear. Linux doesn't need to sell you a new copy, or a new computer.

Re:Careful what you wish for

[aliquis]

You don't use Linux right?

Isn't the Intel driver within the kernel? So hard to be without that one.

Personally I wouldn't care much about versions.

And all distributions will run all the drivers or you've put yourself into the situation by running something utterly crazy and stupid just because you more or less wanted it.

Re:Careful what you wish for

[jawtheshark]

I can confirm. I'm typing this right now (as chance would have) on my old laptop with a Radeon Xpress 1100 (which is technically a 200M). I don't know for Windows, but on Linux, the support is abysmal. Don't count on running any modern desktop. So, I reverted back to XP Media Center Edition, which is the version this laptop came with. (Running it off an SSD, seems to work fine) XP runs just fine and is modern enough for me. (I run Limited User for my day-to-day account, I know what I'm doing)

Re:Careful what you wish for

[hairyfish]

This is no different to Windows. Windows driver support is especially poor if you have a GPU older than 3 years.

Crap. I know this is Slashdot and we bag Windows here, but if there's one thing Windows does better than everyone else it's driver support for older (within reason - ie at least 6 or 7 years old) hardware .

Re:Careful what you wish for

[anomaly256]

There are x86 GPUs besides Intel, Nvidia, and AMD? I see the odd Matrox card once in a while but I wouldn't game on those anyway

Re:Careful what you wish for

[Artemis3]

Bad example, steam and the games don't need Unity, the rest you already have it in the Ubuntu derived Mint.

Mint 14 = Ubuntu 12.10, Mint 13 = Ubuntu 12.04 LTS.

All Ubuntu derivatives should have no issues running Steam. I tested with Xubuntu 12.04 64 bits and it works perfectly.

Re:Careful what you wish for

[squiggleslash]

Technically true but fairly meaningless. When I bought a laptop two years ago, Ubuntu didn't support the graphics card. But I was able to download the standard drivers from Nvidia, and install them, and then my Ubuntu system was fine.

Just like in Windows, the fact the OS "vendor" doesn't ship the drivers doesn't mean you're out of luck.

(And before we get the usual "But... Linux suxors because nobody cares about making their drivers available!!?! - there are only three graphics card makers in the world as far as PC makers are concerned right now. AMD, NVidia, and Intel. All three have strong Linux support. No, they're not perfect, but I suspect Steam going GNU/Linux is going to be a major kick in the pants to encourage them.)

Re:Careful what you wish for

[silentcoder]

Agreed, with a few (very rare) exceptions. Notably - try getting a (fully supported) older webcam to work with skype in Linux. Skype only speaks V4L2 and if the webcam driver only speaks V4L1 then you're screwed.

Re:Careful what you wish for

[0100010001010011]

Actually no. ATI just dropped support for my card in my motherboard that I bought in early 2011.

Everything about my motherboard should be perfectly fine in todays world except that ATI dropped support in the linux drivers. So no more hardware acceleration.

(Meanwhile my GT220 from ages ago still gets support and that's why I stick with Nvidia on Linux side).

Re:Careful what you wish for

[AmiMoJo]

That's because with mobile chipsets you usually have to get the driver directly from your laptop manufacturer with AMD. They allow various customizations and by license agreement don't supply generic versions.

Intel are going the same way. You can use their generic drivers but they don't work as well as the manufacturer optimized ones which have things like thermal control tailored to a particular model. My Let's Note CF-7 is like that; the fan kicks in a lot less with Panasonic's driver.

All ATI's DX9 cards are supported in Win8. Just go to their web site and take a look at the drivers on offer. Your problem is your laptop's manufacturer isn't offering updates.

Re:Careful what you wish for

[Type44Q]

If yours isn't one of them, forget it.

Strawman argument - if yours isn't one of them, it's so old that it won't have the performance and features needed by the latest cutting-edge games, not on Windows or Linux.

Re:Careful what you wish for

[VGPowerlord]

The difference being that the GeForce 6000 and 7000 are from 2004-2005 rather than 2008-2009.

Re:Careful what you wish for

[Lonewolf666]

Typically if you have Linux, old drivers aren't deprecated ever.

Sometimes they are. See http://www.mesa3d.org/relnotes-8.0.html. But those tend to be for really old GPUs, in this case mostly from the 1990s.

In the Windows world, you can usually stick to the old drivers as long as you keep the old OS. For instance, I've recently reinstalled my sister's PC from ~2006 with XP. The old XP drivers for the ATI GPU (R600 series) were still available for download and worked fine.

But problems may arise if you want to install a newer Windows version. AMD/ATI tends to drop older models from new drivers after a few years. In case of the PC above, it happened this summer with Catalyst 12.6. So I guess it would be still possible to use this PC with Catalyst 12.6 and Windows 7, but Windows 8 might be out.

Re:Careful what you wish for

[Lonewolf666]

Linux drivers tend to stay around longer. Compare the release notes for Mesa 8.0, where some drivers were deprecated - but those were for hardware released in the 1990s.
Now some of those were described as unsupported anyway, so the actual "support" may have been of dubious quality. But I still get the impression that the Windows world is faster to drop support for old hardware,

Re:Careful what you wish for

[CosaNostra Pizza Inc]

But Ubuntu has Unity which requires a 3d desktop that uses compiz. I thought that desktop gaming performance on Ubuntu compared to other OS's AND other linux distros was relatively poor because of Unity. Not to mention that I and most people hate Unity. I've switched to Cinnamon.

Re:Careful what you wish for

[jawtheshark]

... And the XPress 200M was still being sold in January 2007. I count that as 6 years old, and give it was still being sold, I could at least expect 3 years support no? That's 2010 and Windows 7 was out by then...

Re:Careful what you wish for

[Sir_Sri]

And as I say, there were patches in 2010 and it supported but not full on officially.

Also, ATI ceased to exist and was absorbed into AMD in that time period (who are in the process of divesting it back to qualcomm likely).

Right... like every vendor

[saleenS281]

In other news, Google releases android 4.2 with a new camera, a new keyboard, and smoother rendering. They aren't porting any of these features back to 2.3 or 4.0. Is this what it's come to?

Linux has incorporated btrfs into the 3.x kernel and isn't porting it back to the 2.4 kernel. Is this what it's come to? Etc. etc. etc. Yes, this is Slashdot, but the MS bashing was played out sometime around 2006. If you're going to pick on them, at least pick something legitimate and don't whine about them not backporting features ad-infinitum.

Re:Right... like every vendor

[saleenS281]

MS doesn't release every 5 years, it's releases every 3. 8 is not early, it's on the exact same cadence they've had for 2 decades minus the misstep that was Vista. Vista was the exception because they bit off more than then could chew and realized they had to back off what they were originally trying which cost them another year and a half on the release.

Dos 1.0 - 85
2.0 - 87
Windows 3.0 - 90
3.1 - 92
95 - 95
98 - 98
2000 - 2000
XP - 2001


Now you're comparing them to Apple? HAH! They've NEVER backported a new feature to a previous release. They have never supported an OS for a decade, are you insane? 10 years ago OSX 10.2 was the newest version. There hasn't been a patch for that OS since 2003 - 2 years of support. Put the crack pipe down.

As for Windows 7 - they said no service pack, that in NO WAY means they won't continue supporting it. It simply means they aren't doing roll-ups. You are clueless.

Re:Right... like every vendor

[theArtificial]

Apple, who supports most of their products for almost a decade after they are first released, from the iPhone to the Mac mini -- the patches keep coming.

Reality doesn't support your claims. Apple devices are supported for about 3 years. Apple operating systems receive updates for about 2-3 years.

Microsoft seems to be almost strong-arming people into adopting the latest operating system despite a lack of any "killer app" features -- they're saying now there will be no more service packs, no rollups, and no new features, for an operating system that just turned 3.

Considering that's SOP for Apple. Pot meet kettle?

Re:Right... like every vendor

[10101001 10101001]

In other news, Google releases android 4.2 with a new camera, a new keyboard, and smoother rendering. They aren't porting any of these features back to 2.3 or 4.0. Is this what it's come to?

Out of curiosity, is there anything legally preventing someone from backporting those new android 4.2 features to 2.3 or 4.0? Is there a reason why people would prefer sticking with Android 2.3 or 4.0 instead of performing the 4.2 upgrade--and before you suggest something along the lines of their carrier preventing an upgrade, I'd note that they're just as likely to prevent receiving backports--?

Linux has incorporated btrfs into the 3.x kernel and isn't porting it back to the 2.4 kernel. Is this what it's come to? Etc. etc. etc.

So, Direct X is comparable to a kernel level module--ie, a driver? Yet with Windows 7 and 8's driver compatibility, Direct X for Windows 8 cannot be used with Windows 7? Or is Direct X comparable to a system level library? How many system-level libraries/programs in Linux don't work on 2.4 and 3.x kernels? Well, what about it being a user-level...no, there's supposed to be great backwards compatibility there too.

Yes, this is Slashdot, but the MS bashing was played out sometime around 2006. If you're going to pick on them, at least pick something legitimate and don't whine about them not backporting features ad-infinitum.

It's hardly "ad-infinitum" to note that MS has a long track record of releasing a new version of Windows with a slight improvement in some programs or libraries that are in themselves desirable, possibly only minimally and only to some people, but inherently break future backwards compatibility for programs that target those new features and hence produce the impetus for people to upgrade in the long term. After all, the argument isn't being made that Direct X 11.1a should target Windows 98 or Windows 2000. The statement of note is precisely what about the new features of Direct X 11.1a that have reason to be targeted at Windows 8 and hence would reasonably justify not making a more broad/generic release that would work on Windows 7 or even Windows Vista.

Of course, maybe it's precisely that the developers of Direct X are so keen to use the latest features of the latest libraries that MS makes and hence inherently creates the current scenario. But, you know, that's just rather bad. Why? Because the latest features of the latest libraries are almost certainly going to be buggier than tried and true, older libraries based upon older features. In either case, it's rather unclear on precisely why Direct X 11.1a should be a Windows 8 exclusive. Certainly, some generic remark that backporting doesn't always happen is just hand waving that misses the specific points that could be raised.

Re:Right... like every vendor

[saleenS281]

Right, if you decide to randomly skip versions because you're trying to paint a story, you get 5 years. Of course here where we aren't watching Fox News we look at facts, and reality. You can't skip windows 3.1 or 98 because you personally don't think the changes were great enough. If you don't think 95> 98 was a huge leap, you either never used both, or you're simply being an asshat trying to make a point that doesn't exist.

Apple absolutely blows, the fact you're even attempting to compare their support to Microsoft shows you're a fanboy and nothing more. I've been using an Apple laptop and an MS desktop for 10 years - the idea Apple supports their OS's longer is a lie. Period. You claimed a decade of support and you were 100% wrong. So you try to switch the conversation from a desktop OS to iPod's? Stick to the subject at hand. Apple's mantra of "it just works" is - it just works if you keep buying new stuff every time we come out with something new. And we refuse to comply with standards so we can rape you on special adapters.

As for features in service packs, XP was the exception not the rule. It's been the only release of windows to get significant changes from a service pack, and the *ONLY* reason it got them was because Vista was delayed.

In conclusion - You're a microsoft hating fanboy who is more concerned with trying to make a point that doesn't exist than acknowledging reality.

Re:Right... like every vendor

[simplexion]

Moving to a 3.x kernel doesn't cost you any money and is rather trivial.

Re:Right... like every vendor

[Billly Gates]

In other news, Google releases android 4.2 with a new camera, a new keyboard, and smoother rendering. They aren't porting any of these features back to 2.3 or 4.0. Is this what it's come to?

Linux has incorporated btrfs into the 3.x kernel and isn't porting it back to the 2.4 kernel. Is this what it's come to? Etc. etc. etc. Yes, this is Slashdot, but the MS bashing was played out sometime around 2006. If you're going to pick on them, at least pick something legitimate and don't whine about them not backporting features ad-infinitum.

The XP era changed everything. People expect 10 years of support and enabled people to be set in their ways and hate change. It also made IT look like a cost center since no business is shutting down by keeping such legacy software.

As a result slashdotters freak out because those under 30 who work in IT are conditioned to never upgrade and do not want to be shafted by obsolete platforms as they can't ever change etc.

People upgrade phones and it does not reignite fear and panic like upgrading your OS.

MS needs to change this. First by making IE an annual update (they dropped the ball on IE 10), making Windows an annual or bi-annual update like in years past. If MS did this then people wont be locked into platforms anymore like they are today and get all bitchy when their OS can't use modern hardware and features not designed when it was made.

Re:Right... like every vendor

[humanrev]

But then, what would I know... I'm just an engineer, not a politician or an executive

In my experience, it's extremely unwise to use your title to validate your opinion as if it matters more than someone elses. I'm an engineer too, and I've seen and listened to the rambling of enough fellow engineers to convince me that we're no smarter than anyone else, or more immune to the stupid of human nature.

Not to say your position is wrong, just that invoking your title probably doesn't help.

Re:Right... like every vendor

[theArtificial]

*shakes head* Math, you suck at it.

Your list is missing releases:
Windows 1.0 - November 1985.
Windows 2.0 - October 1987. (2 years)
Windows 3.0 - 1990 (3 years)
Windows 3.1 - 1992 (2 years)
Windows 95 - August 1995 (3 years)
Windows 98 - 1998 (3 years)
Windows 98 SE - 1999 (1 year)
Windows 2000 / Windows ME - February 2000, (1 year)
Windows XP - October, 2001 (1 year!)
Windows Vista - January, 2007 (6 years)
Windows 7 - July 2009 (2 years!)
Windows 8 - October 2012 (3 years)

The general trend has been about 5 years, unless an operating system has bombed (Vista, ME). These each represent the major new versions, not minor updates (for example, Windows 95 -> Windows 98 was not included, because they basically have the same kernel and architecture).

You don't include Windows 98 because they're basically the same, but then again include Windows Vista & 7. If you're not including minor updates and similar architectures Apple OS releases would be even more paltry (see features). While confirming some things interesting that 2009 was the first year of 64bit support for Apple kernels, wow.

I'm not including NT, CE, etc., because those aren't used by a lot of consumers and don't represent the "main family" of Windows products.

Don't want Windows over represented with Server products, right?

So if some new technology comes out... won't work for Windows 7. Imagine if this spring, some new version of WiFi is released that works over distances of 20 miles, at gigabit speeds, and allows infinite porn downloading. Tell me, how do you feel being forced to shell out another $300 on top of the grand you just spent getting your current computer for a new operating system, just to use said new hardware that otherwise would have had support added to it?

Wouldn't that hypothetical person now be at parity with an Apple hardware purchase? How's the work for people who aren't running iOS6 or OS 10.7+?

Re:Right... like every vendor

[dbIII]

I've got a powerpc mac on an older version of OS X (it's too slow for the new version, the one before, or the one before that) and updates still turn up every now and again.
I don't use it much so it seems there's a new update nearly every time I turn it on.

Re:Right... like every vendor

[giorgist]

Aaaa ... Google will make the source available like it has in almost all previous versions. So you can port it to your microwave if you like. There is such a chasm of difference in what MS is doing to what Android is doing that you're in different state of mind.

Re:Right... like every vendor

[ADRA]

When Android says we're not back porting feature XYZ then either people have to suffer, or they get the drivers / features and wire them in themselves. Android is OPEN SOURCE. CyanogenMod does exactly the things you so openly disparage. The other note you failed to mention is that Android is a 0 dollar upgrade (assuming the manufacturer supports it, which is no different from an old video card vendor dropping support, and neither OpenHandset's nor Google's responsibility).

When Linux doesn't support kernel feature XYZ (brtfs IS in 2.6 btw), one can back port most changes if they're skilled and creative enough put it in themselves becase its OPEN SOURCE.

When Microsoft says that they're not back porting 11.1a or another periferal feature to Windows 7, you're all but completely S.O.L. unless you write an entire set of DirectX wrappers that fill in the missing holes yourself, with Microsoft's public documentation as a reference, and no hardware driver support... Good times..

Of course this has absolutely nothing to do with support or the sort. Microsoft wants to ween people into new versions of the OS, and you'll have more reason to, because it adds something very incremental that a ton of rabbid gaming fan boys jump up and down for (well thins upgrade looks like a lame duck, so so sorry for them). If this was .NET, silverlight, a new SQL server, etc.. release, you can sure dollars for donuts that they'd paint the entire supported OS's with hacks to get the beasts in, compatability safe or not.

Re:Right... like every vendor

[saleenS281]

So your complaint is a company is trying to make money. Welcome to the real world where people sell things to make money. Are there other methods of making money on software, sure. But that's not what MS chose, get over it. When you purchase Windows 7, you are purchasing a set of features. MS isn't taking anything away when they release new features in a new OS. MS isn't promising to backport features to Windows 7. If you want the new features, you buy the new version. If you don't want them, you stick with what you've got. Linux being "free" is absolutely irrelevant to the fact that sometimes you need to upgrade software to get new features. You're complaining about a business model you disagree with in a discussion about new features requiring new software. It has no place in this discussion.

Re:Right... like every vendor

[saleenS281]

Again you bring cost into a discussion that has nothing to do with cost. Linux being free isn't why features don't get backported. They don't get backported because it's not worth the effort involved. Major features don't get backported from ANY vendor. AIX, Solaris, HPUX, VMS, pick your poison. Appliances from the various vendors, switch makers, router makers, etc. etc. etc. No software developer in their right mind will do so unless they've got a very large customer with a very large checkbook willing to foot the bill because of the cost associated with backporting, testing, and supporting new features in old code. There are only so many developers working on a project, and they generally have a maintaining engineering structure for patching old code, and a development team who works on the latest release.

Quite frankly you strike me as someone who hasn't spent a day in a real business working on code.

Re:Right... like every vendor

[bingoUV]

gain you bring cost into a discussion that has nothing to do with cost. Linux being free isn't why features don't get backported. They don't get backported because it's not worth the effort involved.

No. Linux being free, as in beer, is why it doesn't matter that features are not backported by the initial provider. And it being Free, as in freedom, is why the backporting can be done by oneself.

Re:Right... like every vendor

[cyber-vandal]

Why is it so difficult to understand that the reason that XP has stuck around so long is because Vista and 7 cannot run a great deal of software and hardware that businesses use and depend on? That's all. No conditioning of the under 30s not to upgrade but a simple business decision to carry on using stuff that already works. Why do you think Microsoft included XP Mode in 7?

Re:Right... like every vendor

[Uberbah]

Considering that's SOP for Apple. Pot meet kettle?

Fandroid throwing stones in a glass house?

Apple devices are supported for about 3 years.

Cute, comparing Microsoft's desktop support to Apple's mobile support. A first generation iPod will still be recognized by iTunes and will still sync newly purchased music. Good luck with that PlaysForSure, though.

Apple operating systems receive updates for about 2-3 years.

They're still releasing security updates for Leopard, a six year old operating system. You know, the same kind of updates that XP and now Windows 7 get.

Re:Right... like every vendor

[theArtificial]

Fandroid [popsci.com] throwing stones in a glass house?

The parent's claim that Microsoft is strong arming people into a Walled Garden, and my post pointing out that Apple does the same thing, is something about Android? Thanks for keeping it relevant.

Cute, comparing Microsoft's desktop support to Apple's mobile support.

Oh, in that case lets break it down further. How's WinPhone 7 working out for the developers? Microsoft's Mobile support is even shorter and more fragmented than Apples, thanks for bringing that up.

They're still releasing security updates for Leopard, a six year old operating system.

You're honestly bringing up something which hasn't had an update in over a year? And comparing to a system which has been out for double that, and systems which receive regular updates? Why would Berkley have an article about end of support migrating off of it? Not to mention the successor (Snow Leopard) getting this nice article.

Re:Right... like every vendor

[Uberbah]

The parent's claim that Microsoft is strong arming people into a Walled Garden

The parent made a couple dozen points on Microsoft and Windows 8, only one of which was the "locked in app store".

Thanks for keeping it relevant.

Thanks for doubling down on the slight of hand, where you again compare mobile to desktop operating systems.

You're honestly bringing up something which hasn't had an update in over a year? And comparing to a system which has been out for double that, and systems which receive regular updates?

You're honestly ignoring the fact that you were wrong on "only three years of updates", or honestly ignoring why XP has gotten updates for as long as it has?

1) Because XP was a disaster, security wise.
2) The Longhorn/Vista debacle

Two problems Apple has not had. Honestly.

Re:Right... like every vendor

[theArtificial]

Thanks for doubling down on the slight of hand, where you again compare mobile to desktop operating systems.

Did you even read what was linked? I linked to the Wiki for OS X, and last I checked OS X is not iOS. Here are the links yet again, Look at the release dates, look at the last update (not security fixes without addressing bugs).

You're honestly ignoring the fact that you were wrong on "only three years of updates", or honestly ignoring why XP has gotten updates for as long as it has?

I don't consider something that receives a security patch without addressing any bugs "updates", especially when its been a year since the last "update" to patch glaring flaws that they're dragging their feet to address. Apple likes to support the last two releases, beyond that you're own your own.

Two problems Apple has not had. Honestly.

Apple had other problems, like shifting architectures (How's running your Power PC stuff working out now, gotta rebuy all your software!), Apple isn't some paragon of security either, Pwn2Own they're the first to drop, and last to get 64bit kernel (2009, woot!).

Re:Mod parent up

[Billly Gates]

WDDM 1.2 has something called a composer that schedules between CPU and GPU tasks with directX 11.1 on top. It is a major performance improvement and great for power saving features.

Unfortunately, it can't be backported to Windows 7/XP as they would no longer be Windows 7 and XP anymore as it is a kernel rewrite. IT would break corporate software which is why they love using obsolete platforms for decades as it never changes.

Well no wonder IE 10 is not available on Windows 7. All that hardware acceleration has to be redone and fine tuned for a WDDM without a composer.

It means DirectX 11.1 is dead

[Billly Gates]

Shit games today still require DirectX 9. Why? MS didn't want to port DirectX11.

IN actuality there are hardcore technical reasons like WDDM (the composer) being only available in WIndows Vista or higher. MS did port DirectX11 to Vista eventually as game studies still use the decade old DirectX 9. ... just sad considering games need to be cutting edge. WDDM 1.2 is not available for WIndows 7 but WDDM 1.1 is. YOu could theoretically port Direct X11.1 to Windows 7. It just requires more work if MS is serious about developers using it? Otherwise they might just finally upgrade to DIrectX11 and stay there.

So Microsoft but software requires OS upgrades before people switch. People switch only when software requires. It is a catch-22 and of course software makers want to keep the Windows 7 loyalist crowd who will be even more angry and resistant to change in a decade than the XP crowd. God forbid.

Re:It means DirectX 11.1 is dead

[Pentium100]

games need to be cutting edge.

Why? DirectX9 offers graphics that are "good enough" so the developer can spend more money on story/gameplay/etc. The difference between DX11 and DX9 is not as noticeable as the difference between DX7 and DX9.

People switch only when software requires.

People do not want to spend money and effort/time to replace a system unless they really need to, what a surprise.
For example, I will only upgrade Windows to a newer version than XP when I replace my current PC. My new PC will be powerful enough so that it will be kinda average 5 years after I buy it with minor HW upgrades (like my current 5 year old PC is now). I will probably use Win7 or Win8/9 if the "classic" UI is back (no, I do not want 5cm x 5cm buttons). This is because I do not like reinstalling Windows, so I'd rather do it as infrequently as possible.

Surprise...

[UltraZelda64]

Sounds like deja vu with past Windows releases... this same exact thing has happened several times in the past.

Only now, Linux is catching up in big ways with the help of both Valve and nVidia, so how much longer will having the latest DirectX version even matter as a selling point for the the latest version of Windows?

Enjoy it while you still can, Microsoft.

Re:Surprise...

[theArtificial]

Valve and linux is laughable. Gabe is all butt hurt because he doesnt want to make a modern ui version of Steam Store. Boohoo. Gabe somehow managed to present the idea that he would be squeezed out of windows gaming all together due to windows 8.. its nonsense.

Yet Apple doing the same thing with their walled garden isn't laughable? Wait and see with the way things are progressing. Apple is considering another architecture jump. Here is an interesting post on that

Windows 8 is the same thing as Windows 7, but better.

Better how?

Linux is like starting in the dark ages of computers.

Yet its running everything from routers, mobile phones, TVs, computers, servers. Must be why all the Super computers run Microsoft or Apple offerings, right?

Well, I'll be...

[RLU486983]

I have to upgrade my DirectX 9?!?

Part of the Wall

[kawabago]

This is part of the new wall protecting Microsoft's new playland it's creating to squeeze unsuspecting customers dry and competition out of the market.

They'll Relent

[epp_b]

Because they'll have to.

Windows 8 is a toilet (remember, it's the "other version" every "every other version of Windows sucks") and they're forcing obsolescence on Windows 7 far too early.

Good buy ATI HD 4000 users

[Billly Gates]

ONly ATI 5600 series or high card from 2010 are required! THat is a bumb considering some ATI HD 4870 SLI users who blew big $$$ for their gaming rigs just 2 years ago are shit out of luck with Windows 8.

Now I know why as only very recent cards support 11.1 shaders.

Not a big deal.

[c1t1z3nk41n3]

Gamers tend to upgrade a lot more often than other people to begin with and the Windows 8 upgrade is only 40 dollars. I don't really see a problem here.

Re:Not a big deal.

[0123456]

That'll be why most games are still DX9 so they can run on XP.

Yet again, Microsoft can't see any rational reason for people to 'upgrade' to Windows Metro, so they're trying to force them by arbitrary restrictions on DirectX. Yet again, it will ensure that games don't use the new version until about Windows 11.

Re:Not a big deal.

[Anubis IV]

I don't really see a problem here.

Clearly you haven't tried Windows 8 yet.

Hell, I'm an MSDN subscriber, so I have access to a number of license keys for personal use, but after my experience with Win 8 at work a few weeks back (in the span of 30 minutes, I managed to crash it twice, forcing a reboot both times, and realized that it clearly wasn't made for a mouse when I kept seeing suggestions that I "tap here to do X"), I have no intention of "upgrading", let alone suggesting that others should pay them $40 to do so. Call me when Win 9 is ready. In the meantime, I'm sticking with what I have.

Re:I still can't tell the difference betwen DX9 an

[girlintraining]

Has rendering technology finally matured?

It's the game developers that have matured. The technology hasn't changed that much -- but the developers have gained experience and understanding. They aren't willing to jump to the latest version just because it's the latest version anymore. They have some business sense now; Which is why the Windows 8 app store looks like a barren desert. Developers know they won't make money there. Same with game developers -- they go where the money is, not where the marketing is. So when you're looking at DX10 versus DX11; The API doesn't make much difference in performance, so why not stick with something supported by more video cards out there, and better optimized in newer video cards anyway?

The developers have matured -- they have a business sense now, not just technical proficiency. DX11.1 can bite their shiny metal ass. Nobody will be developing on it for years to come.

Re:I still can't tell the difference betwen DX9 an

[Nationless]

Rendering technology is waiting for the next generation of consoles. Devs are scared of doing pc-exclusive "super-graphics" because it will be PC-only and that market is mired in doubt of piracy and confusing sales numbers thanks to the myriad of digital options which aren't listed in the regular sales numbers.

Nothing radical will happen in the near-future apart from input methods such as Oculus Rift.

The Difference Between OpenGL and DirectX

[Anonymous Coward]

If you have programmed shaders before you know that new APIs make absolutely no difference in advancing graphics since any graphics effect that has and will ever exist can be programmed using even ancient shader models like GLSL version 2. New APIs serve only to lock users into their own API artificially, even though the graphics capabilities already exist and will be the same for a long time to come. Using shaders, a programmer can do anything using graphics, even things that don't exist yet. All of the effects advancements like SSAO (screen space ambient occlusion) and raytracing are advancements in algorithms that can be easily written in any existing shader language. A new DirectX API version in my opinion is completely useless and only serves no purpose other than to try to get people to buy Windows 8. Programmers don't need a new API to make better graphics, they need creativity and ingenuity using existing shader languages which will never need to change.

Re:The Difference Between OpenGL and DirectX

[El_Oscuro]

The Commodore was introduced in 1982, and the graphic hardware was never updated. However, developers were making games with good graphics almost 10 years later, on the original 1982 chipset. In fact, one of the best games released for the PC in the early 1990's (Commander Keen) would have been even better had it been introduced for the C-64. Commodore made their hardware API completely open. If I were a developer now, I would avoid all of the locked in crap and probably use Open GL even if is more of a PITA. At least my shit will still work if Bill or Steve or whoever decides to change crap.

How to get rid of all Windows boxes, forever?

[h00manist]

Linux sucks as a desktop os

Microsoft always does this bait and hook game. Already XP can't run IE9, and sites are stopping support for IE8. There's no option, accept Microsoft doesn't maintain support for their OS without forced upgrades, or just don't use it. There are some options.

The thing many people are waiting for I think is some simple way to stream win32 API suport to run any win-app you want, on demand, from one single box sitting on the network. Then get rid of every Microsoft product in sight.

Re:How to get rid of all Windows boxes, forever?

[SplashMyBandit]

Wrong. There are still hundreds of millions of users with perfectly good computers that are running XP. They don't want to upgrade and migrate all their data and settings. They don't want to pay for new software that will let them do the things they do already. Hell, the feature touted in the thread summary (stereoscopic rendering) is already on Windows XP in OpenGL (and has been forever, including lots of effects that Microsoft forced you to get Vista for). Requiring an OS upgrade for simple features has nothing to do with technology (since OpenGL has no problem) - it is all about bilking you for more money.

Re:How to get rid of all Windows boxes, forever?

[mlts]

Devil's advocate here:

XP is over a decade old OS, and was written to patch some of Windows 2000's flaws, as well as add a DRM stack. Compating to other companies shows this age. Apple has long since gotten over System 9, anyone asking for a.out support in Linux would be laughed at, and someone asking Oracle for disktool support would be laughed off the phone.

XP's security is geared to fight against problems in early to mid 2000s. Time has moved on, and threats have moved from hacking a machine via the network to nailing a box via the Web browser or its addons.

Yes, Windows 7 may not run on older hardware (which is a valid reason to keep XP), but there is a point with old hardware where it burns too much energy/CPU to be viable. For those tasks, there is always P2V. The exception are some older games which just won't run right in an emulator.

If a site stops support for IE, there are always other Web browsers. Firefox and Chrome still work well on XP, perhaps Safari.

As for streaming apps, that is a cool concept. Basically combine VMWare Unity with Onlive's technology to have one Windows box on the network, and have others use that for all W32 code.

As for the topic at hand, I don't agree with MS cutting off W7 support so close.

Windows 8 is a definite UI change (and arguably a bigger step than going from Windows 3.1 to Windows 95 [1].) Because of that, W8 is going to not be adapted quickly by the enterprise (due to training costs), and consumers are also reluctant to change from their start button.

Of course, there is always an alternative to W8 if you are a college student or otherwise have access... Windows Server 2012 makes a decent desktop OS, and if you stick your applications on a separate volume [2], the deduplication ability is a nice thing to have.

[1]: It isn't that big a step, but Metro is definitely a different UI than is found on a desktop OS. The closest thing to it would be the four big panels found on the old PS/2 personal machines.

[2]: Can't deduplicate the OS volume.

Re:How to get rid of all Windows boxes, forever?

[epyT-R]

Who cares about all this when the UI gets in the way of basic desktop functionality while managing to also get in the way of every established workflow from the last 20 years? The rest of what you're talking about fits into a service pack.

Re:How to get rid of all Windows boxes, forever?

[epyT-R]

sure because 99% of the code is the same.

Re:How to get rid of all Windows boxes, forever?

[24-bit Voxel]

Jackie Chan would never talk like you do... you dishonor his name with your petulant vulgarities.

Re:How to get rid of all Windows boxes, forever?

[Bremic]

So you bought a new product that is "pretty much the same" as the previous version? Why buy it then?
Simply for continued operation? This is a subscription based attitude towards software.

I don't use Windows except at work, where I only really use it to start Chrome and a Text Editor, then I just use those apps. All this after a 2 years Windows 7 Project that deployed a new OS that everyone uses the same way as they used the old one.

A new operating system should offer new services, which apparently Microsoft did with Windows 8. However what services did they remove? I have no idea, but it still boggles that you buy a new piece of software so you can make it act exactly like the software you replaces.

Re:How to get rid of all Windows boxes, forever?

[nabsltd]

Define perfectly good. It sounds like you mean old computers because you cant buy new computers with xp on it. I would never define old computers as perfectly good.

I'm running XP on a Core i7-920 which is now 4 years old, and performance is not an issue. I do video and audio editing, run VMs, and do all the "boring" tasks (e-mail, web browsing, etc.) and all run just fine. The only real performance roadblocks are ones that a new computer likely wouldn't help with (disk drive and network, when moving 30-40GB of data around), although an SSD upgrade could help some.

There definitely isn't anything that Windows 7 or 8 would allow me to do better than I am doing it right now. I might be able to play some games that I can't play now, but that's really the only issue, but it has nothing to do with performance, and it's exactly the point of TFA...artificially limiting newer versions of DirectX to the newer OS will make some people upgrade, but only gamers.

windows 8 is a performer.

What, exactly, does Windows 8 do faster than any previous OS? Every benchmark out there shows that Windows 8 is pretty much exactly the same as Windows 7 as far as application performance is concerned. Likewise, Windows 7 is pretty much the same as Windows XP. Many people think that every newer OS is much faster, but that's usually because they got that newer OS when they purchased a new PC.

Re:How to get rid of all Windows boxes, forever?

[epyT-R]

and 95% of the reason it's sitting in the landfill is because of useless, forced obsolescence created by software that takes a lot more resources yet fails to give valid reasons why. The technical reason of course is that more and more of the stack is being coded in bulky interpreted languages and/or is just sloppy (you know, the old 'you have the memory so why not use it' mentality). The other 5% is for situations where your application actually needs more cpu/ram.

Argument from antiquity. Just because something's old doesn't mean it's worse than the new. Most evolution is littered with tradeoffs. I"m not sure the tradeoffs one gets with using vista/7/8 over 2k/xp are worth it, nor do I think the actual improvements brought vista/7/8 necessarily depend on the drawbacks.

See, to me, app stores are anathema to everything a desktop computer (and personal computing) stands for. For me, microsoft would win big points giving us a desktop that can be used for literally anything. They were on their way with the 2k to 7 interface, but now they've rolled it all back with 8. I outgrew fisher price long ago. I have no desire to relive those days.

Re:How to get rid of all Windows boxes, forever?

[erroneus]

...in a landfill...

Uhm. Are you following what your writing? You're pretty much all over the place here. But you just described what is wrong with what Microsoft is doing better than anyone else. Microsoft is the primary reason great machines become useless. Windows XP was very acceptable until they slowed it down with every update since the release of Windows 7. Do you think that's a coincidence?

Linux has proven over and over again that a LOT can be done with "old computers." They aren't so old. And the power? It's ridiculous... ridiculous that it's being wasted. These days, processors aren't getting any faster. Now it's all about GPUs isn't it. Why is that? Could it be because Microsoft can't make efficient code while coders like those behind "Enlightenment" can still do it all in software??? We should know what is possible. We have examples all over of what is possible. The real question is why Microsoft isn't delivering on it? We know why. It's money. They want more and more and they will stop getting more if they make something great. The reached that limit already... Windows XP was probably the last "great" thing. Now it's all about "upgrade or die" because they are now forcing the world with every ounce of influence they can muster.

I think Microsoft's profit motive was glaring when they changed the volume license deal for corporate customers. It used to be that you could get a volume license for every computer and be done with it. But then Microsoft thought... hey, if we call them all "upgrades" we can make the saps buy it all twice. And that's what they did! You're either running OEM or you bought Windows twice to run it once. Nice play Microsoft. Make them pay more without getting more. *MAGIC!*

I'm not going to accuse you of being a shill. I'm just going to say you need to get some perspective. Computers are machines. They run software. Microsoft Windows is software and a platform for other software. As a platform, it is heavily utilized. But things are changing. Computing is getting more specialized... modularized. The use of "general purpose computing" will be minimalized soon.

Microsoft knows this. Didn't they share with you? Why do you think they are struggling so hard to put out a phone, a tablet and all that? It's where the world is going and no one really wants Microsoft to be a part of the new market set. They burned their customers for too long and they are tired of it.

Re:How to get rid of all Windows boxes, forever?

[Angeret]

@SplashMyBandit: Agreed. I've got an old GeForce 256 card kicking around somewhere and it did bloody impressive 3D back in the day (I'm talking about playing depth cued Descent 1 among other games or watching video with a pretty good faked 3D effect) - I also have the LCD shutter glasses from that and a pair from a blown GF3 Ultra somewhere. I'm still running XP (with a customised 2K style desktop) as IMO it's the last desktop OS to feel like one rather than a PC/console/tablet crossover, doesn't waste vertical space like Vista & 7 do and it isn't a tablet front end cut down for the masses (and paid shills to crow over).

And yes, I have 7 Ultimate sitting in front of me JUST so I can play a single game - Battlefield 3 - but I detest the lazy-ass UI in 7 so much I still haven't played the damn game. Gimme a geek friendly/classic front end rather than something that makes XP's technicolour yawn (native UI) look good and I'll think slightly better of that mad chair chucker than I do now. Sorry for the rant but this continued push by Microsoft to upgrade where I don't need or want to (and spend money I don't have to spare) because they need more money in their coffers is way beyond an annoyance and this DX11.1 crap is just about the last straw. I've never been a Linux user, but if I can run *all* my software under it in the near future then I'll be quite happy to take all the (purchased) MS OS discs in the house and use them for target practice.

Re:How to get rid of all Windows boxes, forever?

[armanox]

You obviously don't deal with government. DOE's all XP (they're thinking about 7 still), and I've heard that DOD's finally stopped using NT4 (but they did have newer systems too). I got friends at NASA still running IRIX on SGI Octanes (a late 90's system, but blows away any PC from the time).

Re:How to get rid of all Windows boxes, forever?

[Billly Gates]

I was looking up some old things I wrote a decade ago. Want to know why those machines are in landfills?

Because Office took 2 minutes to load up. Windows 98 sucked goatballs if you think XP had bad security and took 4 minutes to startup. Java applets took 2 minutes to load. Today that is unheard of but back then we were used to it. Remember using photoshop on a pentium I 166 mhz (fast back in 1996) and doing a simple blur had a bar and a good 70 seconds to complete?

Today you can do a blur brush instantly over and over just like clicking. Windows 7 is a huge upgrade in terms of security, speed, instant search, and of course support for modern hardware like SSDs and GPU accelerated graphics. Yes office users use these and HTML 5 and flash use them. On your smart phone notice how when you move your finger down on the browser is slides fluidily?

Do that on an XP machine clip clip clip and choppy. IE 9 is smooth mostly, and Firefox is finally getting there in GPU acceleration but still behind your pathetic phone. Why? Because if XP support in directX 9 is holding it back as it can't do font rendering and smooth scrolling as DirectX11 and your smartphone can.

Security is a big issue too for XP. It is time to let it go as you would not be mad for the next angry birds not working on your IPhone1 circa 2007 or Android 1.6 phone.

Re:How to get rid of all Windows boxes, forever?

[chrismcb]

and 95% of the reason it's sitting in the landfill is because of useless, forced obsolescence created by software that takes a lot more resources yet fails to give valid reasons why.

Video and sound is a HUGE reason. People want higher quality video, and that is very expensive.
Of course there is also just plain bad programming.
Higher level language also take part of the blame, but probably not as big of a part as you might think.

Re:How to get rid of all Windows boxes, forever?

[Qu4Z]

Personally I prefer XP over Win7 for the most part.

Re:How to get rid of all Windows boxes, forever?

[Jackie_Chan_Fan]

I dont tolerate assholes.

Who Cares?

[MacGyver2210]

I still haven't even got software that requires DX10. Why do I care what some future version of DX that I don't and probably never will use only runs on a shitty gimmick OS?

Re:Mod parent up

[Nikker]

As someone who has been using Win8 RC since about August, throwing the whole desktop on the GPU isn't quite as good as I had hoped. My example is as follows. My hardware specs are AMD FX-6100 @ 3.7GHz, Radeon HD 7850, 16GB RAM(1600). When running iTunes/Winamp visualizations on one monitor (windowed or full screen) the GPU usage skyrockets (as per Open Hardware Monitor) and the entire UI on both screens becomes less than a slide show. CPU usage rests at about 10%. Now whenever you run a mildly GPU intensive task in a window your system basically becomes completely unresponsive. My GPU is not the best out there but the majority of systems out there ship with much less, I can't feel a bit less then ambitious that this won't effect most people negatively overall.

As for your claim that it would require a "kernel rewrite" I have to say I'm impressed. Apparently you know the implementation of the system which apparently up to now was believed to be closed source. I am curious how you know how the kernel would have to be "re-written" when according to the version numbers they just went from 6.1 to 6.2.

Re:I still can't tell the difference betwen DX9 an

[Luckyo]

Early on in DX10 times, it was the exact opposite. Switching to DX10 renderer cost around 10-30% performance over what you would get on DX9.

It wasn't until DX11 and win7 that we started to see games that would actually have proper support that didn't come with a massive performance hit when switching from DX9 to DX11. And even so, DX11 still generally is a net fps loss because of the extra features that put extra load on the hardware. Load that isn't there in DX9.

This is a non-issue

[Pubstar]

Most of the games I play on PC have a DX11 on/off mode in the menus. If several Free 2 Play games have this option (on UT3 engine), I can't see why a game can't be developed with a DX11.1 mode check box.

Re:I still can't tell the difference betwen DX9 an

[Hadlock]

EA and Activision both predate Quake 1 by a number of years. It's not as if the game industry popped up overnight and delivered us the Xbox 360 and PS3, followed shortly by lolcats and image macros on Reddit. Fallout 3 is not built on a new IP, nor is Quake 4 or Skyrim for that matter. John Carmack was making smart commentary about the gaming industry in his .plan files almost two decades ago.
 
I see that you're trying to make a point... but I think you need to reach back about ten years prior to the era you're thinking of.

Re:Mod parent up

[Luckyo]

With the power of modern machines, they could probably skip most of the "fine tuning" if there was any will to do this.

Rather obvious that there isn't any, and even more obvious as to why. Microsoft needs win8 to succeed badly.

Again?

[Charliemopps]

They did the same thing with Windows7 and DX10.. The result? Game publishers didn't write DX10 games for a LONG time, and if they did the games would work in DX9 or 10 via a settings change. There are still games out there that don't support DX10. Way to go MSFT... how many times can you shoot yourself in the foot before you finally bleed out?

Re:Hear that sound?

[Luckyo]

Microsoft survived Vista and major DX9 > DX10 upgrade.

Compared to that mess, this is a storm in a teacup. Pretty much the only feature added is stereoscopy, and both nvidia and AMD already do it in their drivers.

And in other news...Steve Sinofsky is GONE.

[bmo]

Steve Sinofsky, the "brains" behind Windows 8, has just been given the boot.

Gee... one wonders why.

http://allthingsd.com/20121112/breaking-windows-head-steven-sinofsky-to-leave-microsoft/

Windows unit president Steven Sinofsky is leaving the company, effective immediately, AllThingsD has confirmed.

The move comes less than a month after Sinofsky presided over the launch of Windows 8 and Microsoftâ(TM)s Surface tabletâ"products seen as key to the future if the PC software pioneer is to retain its position amid a market increasingly dominated by phones and tablets.

Sources have said the move came amid growing tension between Sinofsky and other top executives. Sinofsky, though seen as highly talented, was viewed at the top levels as not the kind of team player that the company was looking for. The move is likened by some to the recent ouster at Apple of iOS head Scott Forstall.

Maybe it's because 8 is a stinker and they have to deep discount the so-called upgrade to 15 bucks just to get people to try it?

--
BMO

Re:And in other news...Steve Sinofsky is GONE.

[Anonymous Coward]

Maybe it's because 8 is a stinker and they have to deep discount the so-called upgrade to 15 bucks just to get people to try it?

If that were the case, why put Larson-Green in his place? She's the one behind Metro (and Ribbon before that)...

Re:And in other news...Steve Sinofsky is GONE.

[N1AK]

If that were the case, why put Larson-Green in his place? She's the one behind Metro (and Ribbon before that)...

That's an informative point and it's a shame you posted it AC as it means that many people may not get to see it. Microsoft promoted up the person who has been leading the changes in Microsoft's user interfaces; if anything this means expect more of it.

I've actually upgraded my home PC to Windows 8 since release. Is it better/worse than 7? I really can't say yet as there are some annoying shortcomings but I prefer the new 'start' system (as someone who just uses the win key as a search hotkey anyway).

Gentlemen

[bistromath007]

Ready the Downfall parodies.

:|

Re:I still can't tell the difference betwen DX9 an

[TheGratefulNet]

along with paragraphs explaining how what you couldn't see was so high tech.

and the judge wasn't going to look at the 27 8x10 color glossy
pictures with the circles and arrows and a paragraph on the back of each one explaining what each one was ...

So they're now Mac oriented?

[garyoa1]

Looks like they're taking some lessons from apple. That's kinda sad.

Re:I still can't tell the difference betwen DX9 an

[humanrev]

Crysis has DX9 and DX10 modes. I definitely notice a difference in DX10 - shadows are more defined, the motion blur is actually not annoying since it blurs at different amounts depending on distance - hard to describe the difference but it certainly looks nicer, and the lighting is a bit more effective.

Deus Ex: Human revolution has DX9 and DX11 modes. DX11 allows tessellation, which means things like ears and collars appear as smoothly rounded surfaces rather than sharpy cut. Shadows and depth of field are also improved, and the delay between alt-tabbing from the desktop back into the game is reduced significantly in DX11.

So some of the benefits are subtle yes. But they are cumulative, and the summation of all these little improvements add up to an overall better experience. Having said that, rendering technology has definitely not matured since we're still effectively performing hacks to get 3D worlds to work. Ray-tracing engines with real-time performance is the next big step.

DX10 history repeat itself

[jkajala]

I guess they never learn. A major reason DX9c games are still getting published is that DX10 wasn't compatible with XP. Now they repeat the same scenario, or at least it sounds like it. They might think this drives customers to Win8 but in reality it only drives developers to stay in DX10/Win7.

Re:DX10 history repeat itself

[Uberbah]

Especially since DX10 was almost certainly developed on XP, as Microsoft was screwing around with Longhorn/Vista at the time. Not the first time they've pushed forced obsolescence on gamers...the Age of Empires III installer demanded XP, but you could install it on 2000 with a simple command line switch....

Re:I still can't tell the difference betwen DX9 an

[Z34107]

I was actually excited when I first saw DirectX 10 screenshots. You actually get foliage with DirectX10, especially in the third set. (Check out the mountains in the back.) Pity that Vista's poor uptake meant nobody besides Crysis or Hellgate: London did much with with it.

DirectX 11 was even more impressive--tesselation essentially gets you a hojillion transformable polygons for free. Check out the crowd animated entirely in GPU hardware.

If you really can't tell the difference, just rejoice, quietly, that all of your gaming needs were met nine years ago. You'll never be tempted to buy a new video card for that XP rig.

Re:Keep going Microsoft! Don't listen to these idi

[Pubstar]

So how much does MS pay you to post here? You can't be someone who reads slashdot yet posts objectively about microsoft! That's blasphemy!

He "decided to leave"

[symbolset]

They have to say that. Can't let anyone know they sent him on an Elop mission. I wonder whose board of directors is about to get a nasty surprise.

Re:Hear that sound?

[mauriceh]

Yup
This time is different though.

Android
iOS
ARM
Ubuntu

Things are changing.
This is what is called a "tipping point"

Re:I still can't tell the difference betwen DX9 an

[Hadlock]

And yet in your example, the developers still felt the need to clearly label in ALL CAPS which one was which.

Well that does it.

[Tiger_Storms]

I've been a long time fan of windows, and microsoft. but really? F- U microsoft for giving me windows 7 then telling me, hey btw if u want directX 11.1 you've gota get our shitty windows 8

Re:I still can't tell the difference betwen DX9 an

[Z34107]

I know, man. Screenshots, axes, lab specimens... those developers will label anything.

Re:Hear that sound?

[Luckyo]

Err.

First of all, you listed 2 mobile OSs, 1 chip designer and one desktop OS. A rather weird selection.

Second, we're talking about DX11. Other then ubuntu, none of the things you mention are capable of even remotely the same things. It's like saying that this time we can phase out delivery trucks because of mopeds.

Re:I still can't tell the difference betwen DX9 an

[0123456]

True. I only have one DX10 game on my laptop, and turning DX10 on means a 30-50% drop in frame rate compared to the DX9 engine with no glaring difference in graphics.

New Wifi

[DrYak]

So if some new technology comes out... won't work for Windows 7. Imagine if this spring, some new version of WiFi is released that works over distances of 20 miles, at gigabit speeds, and allows infinite porn downloading.

You mean, like IEEE 802.11ac? :-D

More seriously:
A new feature will probably be supported the same way Bluetooth was supported before microsoft included it into the service pack: an ugly vendor specific hack included with the driver.
So the end user will be stuck between two hard choices:
- keep the older OS version and put up with the crappy stack
- pay and upgrade to the newer OS version with buil-in official support

Re:Keep going Microsoft! Don't listen to these idi

[Osgeld]

I have a shit ton of memory, I have a fast system, what compelling reason do I have to buy yet another OS, I dont even like using JUST to play some DX9 XBOX360 ports?

Re:I still can't tell the difference betwen DX9 an

[MartinSchou]

That looks rather cool, but annoyingly it's only in 720p. Consoles again I suppose.

One thing that I personally hate in games is depth of field, and it's not even because of the performance hit. It's just so bloody annoying to have to move the cursor to something to see it properly, not to mention if you accidentally point at something at a different distance - now you can't see what you were actually looking at.

I do wonder if it'd be possible to do accurate eye tracking to do depth of field, even though I still suspect I'd want to disable it because of the same issues.

Re:I still can't tell the difference betwen DX9 an

[wincel]

Depends probably what games you looked at. If these were not optimized for DX10, you won't see much of a difference of course.
DX 10 brought pretty impressive optical improvements in terms of water (water surface ripples, waves etc looking way more realistic, fountains, under water effects etc.), the ground cover in games looked much more realistic, especially its lighting and fade-in of spots with ground cover. Distance blur inproved, softer shadows, polygonal round shapes becomes truly round.
Might not be much for you but it matters a lot if you play for example a MMO for years and re-visiting the same area quite some.

DX11 brought better surface plasticity without modeling it. See here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wtNHmj7vznI Not sure otherwise, I haven't seen anything in games yet that fully uses DX11 functionality.

Re:I still can't tell the difference betwen DX9 an

[wincel]

Oh wait, DX 11 introduced stereoscopics for Nvidia, I remember the talk at EQ2 forums and how impressed people were. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eD_WpjH586M Anf here is a good overview, basically DX11 is DX10 effects plus a bit improvement with better performance. I've seen rain drop calculations on ocean waves in the Crysis 3 Engine as example, very nice. Of course if you play a game where you just race through you won't realize these things most likely. http://www.maximumpc.com/article/features/directx_11_deconstructed?page=0,0

Re:Hear that sound?

[mauriceh]

Mobile OSs are the new "desktops". It is the OS of the new personal computers. Tablets and smartphones.
ARMs are now dominant, not Intel/ x86
Ubuntu is a Linux distro for the "normal" person, not the "propellerhead"
Point is gaming is going to leave Windoze and move to Linux.

And it will be M$ own fault for the changes that made it happen.

Re:Time to retire XP

[Billly Gates]

Wrong. There are still hundreds of millions of users with perfectly good computers that are running XP. They don't want to upgrade and migrate all their data and settings. They don't want to pay for new software that will let them do the things they do already. Hell, the feature touted in the thread summary (stereoscopic rendering) is already on Windows XP in OpenGL (and has been forever, including lots of effects that Microsoft forced you to get Vista for). Requiring an OS upgrade for simple features has nothing to do with technology (since OpenGL has no problem) - it is all about bilking you for more money.

According to StatCounter XP usage is now tying MacOSX and Vista usage! Look under United States and add November statistics to do the calculation?

XP is a security nightmare. THe only place where XP and IE 6 are huge is CHina. Outside of that market it is dying. It is time to move on and stop fearing change. XP security is really bad just like IE 6 which came with it as the grandparent stated was from a different era where a good password is all you needed and oh stay out of websites you do not know etc.

Today, you get hacked by just having flash out of date or java installed through an infected ad network. I setup a new install of WIndows 7 just the other day and someone hit the blue E and BAM msn.com had an ad. Had to re-image the damn thing. XP lacks ASLR, DEP (except on a few services), and heap-spray protection. ASLR = random address layering (out of order). All you need to do to hack an XP box is know which ram addresses core dll files use. You can do this as a regular user.

Just insert some code by overflowing a buffer or integer in XP and BAM your code is running as admin, even if the code started as a regular user. Dep and ASLR with Windows 7 can stop this. VC10 has bounds checking when a program crashes to prevent loss of control ... again does not work on XP. XP does not seperate processes and priveldges and even impersonates administrator and hardware devices ... wow.

XP
- can't scale beyond 2 cores efficiently
- SATA driver can't multitask with command queing
- Swaps like a mofo due to a terrible paging algorithm (double pennalty if you use the default SATA driver) even if you have plenty of ram
- Slower and shitty graphics due to not supporting WDDM and a compuser below DirectX11 and the hardware. This makes your computer more stable
- Driver BSOD protection
- No UEFI support
- No Trim SSD Support
- No modern browser support after 2014 (Chrome and FF will drop it)

I assume if you work in IT (like most slashdotters) that you are under 30 and are used to behavior that dictates run unupdated ancient platforms but DO NOT TOUCH IT. THose of use over 35 remember doing it every 2- 3 years like your phones.

It is irresponsible and dangerous to run XP today and especially after next year. It is time to move on my friend. It is 2012 now. Your PC is not an appliance like a fridge if it is internet enabled. We wont support you anymore and it wont be our problem for not supporting IE 6- 8 and XP. That problem is yours.

Years later ...

[Taco Cowboy]

Just like what happened to IE 10.

Initially Microsoft only let users of Win 8 to enjoy IE 10, shutting out millions and millions of Win7 users.

Only now, rumor has it that M$ gonna let Win7 users use IE10 - http://slashdot.org/submission/2350635/ie-10-for-win-7---would-it-be-a-little-bit-too-late- - but it would be too late.

The same thing may happen here.

Only after Linux gathering massive Steam (pun intended) Microsoft gave up and allowing DirectX 11.1 to run on Win7 - and it will too, be too little, too late.

Re:Years later ...

[zrbyte]

It would be nice to have a +1 "I hope you're right" mod.

Re:Years later ...

[hairyfeet]

There is really nothing to "hope" for one way or another. We are just now getting games with the OPTION of using DX 11,why? because MSFT fragmented their own userbase by refusing to backport to XP so the game companies made sure to keep supporting DX 9.

When triple A titles cost close to 100 million you do NOT cut millions of potential customers, you simply can't afford to. i have NO doubt you won't be seeing squat supporting DX 11.1, except maybe one or two MSFT games which will probably be just X720 ports. who cares? win 7 is supported until 2020 and there are simply too many gamers that won't take Win 8, not to mention many of the devs have said they don't care for it either, so mark my words, Win 7 is the new XP, Win 8 the new Vista.

Re:Years later ...

[rk]

Agreed. The game companies want to sell games, not use the latest and greatest version of DirectX. When the vast majority of your potential customers are on DX9 and DX10, you *might* add some DX11 or DX11.1 eye candy, but no way are you going to make it so your game doesn't work on 9 or 10.

I finally went from XP to 7 just this summer. They're crazy if they think I'm getting 8 anytime soon. And if some uber cool game comes out that's DX11.1 only it's not like I'm ever in a hurry to pay full price for a game so I can beta test it anyway.

Re:Years later ...

[Taco Cowboy]

http://blogs.msdn.com/b/ie/archive/2012/10/17/ie10-on-windows-7-available-in-november.aspx/

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enterprise use is going 7 and 8 is not that bad bu

[Joe_Dragon]

enterprise use is going 7 and 8 is not that bad but the real killer for 8 is the NEW UI that is based on touch / 1 app at a time cell phone use ideas.

and moving that to that to more then one screen / big screens does not work that well. Also why no start menu in desktop mode??? at least as a on / off choice?

Re:Time to retire XP

[SplashMyBandit]

You simply don't get it. I'm not saying that Windows XP is better than Windows 7, no one is. What we are saying are two things: 1) many people are not like you and don't routinely change their working computers just for the latest fashion, they change when their computer dies; 2) Windows 7 is better than Windows XP, but not sufficiently so for the way most *ordinary* users use it. You are writing from your techie perspective and simply don't appear to understand what the rest of thinks about these forced upgrades to get trivial graphics features (which, as I point out, are implemented in Win XP under OpenGL

It is irresponsible and dangerous to run XP today and especially after next year. It is time to move on my friend.

I'm not talking about my computing preferences, and again you appear to fail to grasp the concepts I'm talking about (preferring instead to flaunt supposed superiority because it appears you imagine yourself as some kind of early adopter). I'm talking about how *ordinary users* are working (including the vast populations that live outside the US, like myself). Ya know, these regular folk have the systems people like you and I have to maintain. It is these people who are having their arms twisted to upgrade unnecessarily in order to run programs that don't actually need the new APIs.

Re:Time to retire XP

[Billly Gates]

Too bad. Not to sound like a dick but you do not expect to buy a car (yes the hated car analogy) and expect free service forever. Otherwise everyone woudl drive 30 year old cars with 200k miles on them if someone else footed the bill.

Corps are the users who see it and like it. MS and webmasters such as myself have to put our feet down and say no. It is your problem. Most of these users you describe use IE as smart users have upgraded mostly to better browsers. Yes new apis like .NET 4.5 are out that are not compatible with XP. Metro apps and cloud apps, and every app under the sun integrated to the net are part of Office 2013.

Eventually they will be expected to be integrated together inside office itself or Metro. These users will get hacked over and over too. It is not arm twisting as they were arm twisting us forcing external costs to us to make IE 6 hacks in 2011 is rediculous!

Ordinary users had it made for more than enough time and it is not arm twisting to stop sinking money for them. Backporting significantly increases the cost of development and it is not fair to early adopters who want to see HTML 5 and CSS 3 actions and run applets but can't due to a 11 year old OS and browser.

Why do you need that transition effect?

[SmallFurryCreature]

A desktop, any desktop, is for using, not for admiring the same bloody animation over and over again. I use windows for gaming but have EVERYTHING turned off except the font options. Aero was disabled years ago. And I just tested it but my start menu shows instantly. A second? I would already be killing Ballmer with a rusty spoon if it took a tenth of a second. My life is worth more to me then wait a second everytime I want to do something.

You are aware that all these startup animations and such are completly useless?E17 had to articiially slow the loading process on Linux to be able to show off its animation effect of the loading screen. Nice... and disabled. What the fuck is the logic behind that?

My PC is not a movie prop. It doesn't have to look the part, it has a task to do and it should do its task as quickly as possible. Maybe if you disabled all the bling, your PC wouldn't need a full second to load a start menu.

Is your life that devoid of meaning that it needs the soothing animation effect to make it tolerable? It is like people who complain about a tearing effect when they move a window around... who the fuck cares? I select a window, drag it to where I want it and I want it done as fast possible and not as nice as possible. I guess there are people who really do have all the compiz options on for more then the 1 minute it takes to get utterly tired of them.

Maybe I am just wrong in thinking an OS is about its applications, not about its bling.

Considering the Windows 7 guy was fired and the Windows 8 and Office girl was promoted, I am starting to feel very alone.

Re:Why do you need that transition effect?

[humanrev]

Your life isn't that important that a transition effect from when you log in to when the desktop appears will have any practical significance.

Like a lot of people (probably you too) I spend the majority of my working time in front of a computer. I also spend a good portion of my free time involved with computers. I enjoy working with a nice interface because it's soothing. It's pleasant to use. If my interface was full of harsh colors you might argue "well you can still run applications on it". That's true, but it'll subconsciously affect my mood because that's how humans work. That is, most humans anyway.

You don't need a lot of bling. A bit of tasteful bling is hardly an issue. I assume you dress nicely at times? Why do that, if clothes are purely functional? It's because people appreciate good dress sense, and that also applies to computer aesthetics.

I feel like I'm talking to a kid here. You should know this already.

Re:Why do you need that transition effect?

[bmcage]

humanrev, you complain this entire tread that others don't follow your reasoning or are fan-boys, but if somebody, subjectively, says he does not want animations, not even a fraction of a second, you go on the same high horse like the people you accuse. Please, perform some self-reflection.

You want to impose your ideas on others, and for some reasons, most of what you want you seem to find in windows. Fine for you, leave the rest of us alone. He stated his point, if you can read, you should have understood and stopped posting.

As an aside, your slashdot account is a fifth of his, so you are probably the kid. And pleaaase, don't bother replying, really, if you feel like replying even to this post, then you did not understand my point.

Re:Why do you need that transition effect?

[bmcage]

you did not get it

I understood your point with your first post. He did too. I understood his point with his post. Probably you too.

The fact you keep on posting anyway just makes you come over like a nut-case on a crusade. People have different views, every election shows that clearly. It suffices to make your point once, and intelligent people will get it. You can then post a retraction or a clarification, but doing just a series or replies with no extra content is just boring.

And I said probably a kid, but will follow my own advice and not explain further.

Re:Why do you need that transition effect?

[tirefire]

Is your life that devoid of meaning that it needs the soothing animation effect to make it tolerable? It is like people who complain about a tearing effect when they move a window around... who the fuck cares? I select a window, drag it to where I want it and I want it done as fast possible and not as nice as possible.

Well, the tearing effect in particular bothers me because oftentimes I like to read the contents of a window while I am moving it. I think a window manager with functionality as the #1 priority should try as hard as possible to never obscure the contents of a window.

I know what you mean about desktop eye candy slowing things down... it's one of the reasons I made the switch from Mac OS X to Windows 7 a few years ago; Windows is more responsive, even with the unnecessary "aero" bullhooey enabled. Linux isn't really an option for me because I run an ATI (er, sorry, AMD) graphics card, and I hear that combination is a rarefied circle of hell.

Re:Why do you need that transition effect?

[AmiMoJo]

I'm on my work PC at the moment. Shitty Intel graphics and a low end dual core AMD CPU. Aero enabled and the start menu opens instantly, even though I have about 20 windows open including Chrome with over 30 tabs and two instances of Visual Studio. Start menu opens instantly.

Microsoft are not as dumb as you think. They made sure that the start menu is cached aggressively. If it takes one second to open your PC is a pile of shit anyway. With your gaming rig enabling Aero should make zero difference to performance.

And yeah, I turned off some animations because they are pointless. And no, the Windows boot time animation does not slow down booting, in fact on my home machine it doesn't have a chance to finish before it disappears to make way for the login screen.

Re:Why do you need that transition effect?

[jones_supa]

Are you sure you want to exit? Any unsaved progress will be lost.

Re:Why do you need that transition effect?

[jedidiah]

I upgraded the shitty Intel graphics on a Win7 PC for a friend. I really only did it so that they could do some gaming but it turned out that the improvements to Win7 performance across the board was very noticeable. It showed up in places that neither of us were expecting.

You're likely just wallowing in a latrine pit and have gotten so used to the smell that you don't realize that you're hip deep in human excrement.

Re:Why do you need that transition effect?

[SleazyRidr]

Perhaps he didn't phrase it as elegantly as he could have, but he has a point. All these flashy animations and whathaveyou: the first time you see them you think "hey, that's cool", after 12 times you think "yeah, whatever" after 100 times you think "come on, hurry up I have work to do." Smooth edges and nice colours do enhance your perception of the software, but most of the time the "visuals" just get in the way.

Re:Why do you need that transition effect?

[bingoUV]

How did you manage to get Intel graphics with AMD CPU?

But who will make the next one?

[Anonymous Brave Guy]

The problem is that there is rapidly becoming no default vendor for industrial-scale general purpose computing. We've become complacent, assuming that if nothing else we can always order another 25 workstations and 5 server boxes from Dell/HP/whoever and stick the latest Microsoft OS on the workstations and whatever server software we wanted on the rest. Even if companies don't upgrade voluntarily, sooner or later the current generation of hardware will start to fail.

But what happens if Microsoft do fall and the only people left to replace them are the likes of Apple (assuming they do any better, since their downward slide seems to have started as well)? If the biggest game in town is some new guy's locked-in software platform, the big name hardware vendors are likely to fall in line, as we've already seen with Apple appearing to lock up the entire supply chain of certain key components for their signature devices so developing competing products is difficult. If you just want to build your own PC and run Linux, you might still be able to (at a premium price, probably), but if the mainstream is moving in a completely different direction then the value of any such system will be greatly reduced.

Ultimately, any computing platform is only worth as much as you can do with it. If you can't access the content you want, connect to the communications channels everyone else is using, play the games you want, run the creative software you want, and so on, the fact that you're running on an "open" hardware platform and OS isn't worth very much at all.

A minor and trivial headache

[SmallFurryCreature]

Really, this kinda stuff is code once, then forget about. And people who write game engines are not stupid, these are people who can do 3D calculations in their own head, they can handle an if/else construct. Two different video cards to set? My GOD!!! The HORROR!

This is a non-issue and kinda shows MS is running out of ideas, Vista didn't become an hit despite tying itself to DX10, why would a point update that only adds 3d support, do it? 3D support has been done for YEARS, without a directx api, they will just continue to use the existing methods.

DirectX only matters to amateurs who need their hand hold. For everyone else, if MS doesn't supply it, someone else will. Look at the loading screen of your game, you can see TONS of library providers. Look up openal, why would you need a 3rd party sound library under DirectX? Because it is better? More flexible? Gosh... so even when DirectX does provide support, some developers STILL choose other libraries. ODD!

Re:Time to retire XP

[SplashMyBandit]

Backporting significantly increases the cost of development and it is not fair to early adopters who want to see HTML 5 and CSS 3 actions and run applets but can't due to a 11 year old OS and browser.

Again you still don't get it. There is nothing preventing HTML5 working in WinXP (since Firefox and Chrome can do it). There is nothing prevent steroscopic 3D working in Windows XP (since OpenGL does it). You are trying to make technical argument that doesn't hold water. I'm a developer and know all about backporting - but use technologies that work on Windows XP as well as everywhere else - it is just that you have your blinkers on regarding technology, at least from my point of view - and even the uninformed can see through the bullshit arguments Microsoft is making, once you point it out (hence the umbrage taken by myself and other informed posters). I'm not against Microsoft, just the way they sometimes do business.

Nothing lost

[gigaherz]

The features of DirectX 11.1 over the "11.0" version are mostly improvements to device and resource sharing across different processes and API versions, on top of certain features that make it possible to better implement hardware-accelerated UIs. 11.1 is win8-exclusive because we don't need to handle HW-accelerated "metro" in windows 7. As far as games are concerned, 11.1 doesn't bring anything interesting enough to add a new rendering path to the game engines.

Fuck You Microsoft

[fleeped]

We won't give a shit soon enough. I switched to DirectX a few years ago, as OpenGL 2.1 was getting to my nerves due to everything breaking with new drivers. Well, DX11 ain't pretty either. Lots of drivers bugs when shaders get .. hairy.

OpenGL has now caught on, DirectX is trying to push Win8 (I have it for free being a student but no thanks, not installing that), PIX is not working very well anyway for complex shaders, so bye bye won't miss you, back to GL.

its just like linux re gcc+X+libc

[cheekyboy]

Dont tell me linux isnt the same but by accident.

Can I shoohorn in the latest X+libc into Fedora14?
or Ubuntu 9 using older gcc?

Sure we can force it, but watch things break.

Stupid MS though, im sure 99.99% of the api/code doesnt use any Win8 specifics, lets hope someone can hack the installer. They should be smarter and develop a truly smart compiler/binary system that can work with many versions.

This is what sucks about most OS's and Software systems, 20000 libraries, each with their own matrix of dependencies and incompatibilities.

But if people got a clue and designed in a more organic way, then more varieties of code could inter mix with each other.

Instead of each windows being a new species of animal with incompatible DNA, it should evolve in a compatible way.

but...

[SuperDre]

stereoscopic rendering is already available on Windows 7..........

Re:Because 7 came out three years ago

[cbhacking]

By $100, you of course mean $40? Pro edition (with Ultimate SKUs discontinued, it's now basically the highest client version) and digital download.

http://windows.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/buy?ocid=GA8_O_MSCOM_Prog_FPP_Null_Null

Steam for Sofa

[Barryke]

No no no you got it all wrong.

Steam on Linux is just there so they can go to an even more perfect (controllable) environment such as, say, a Steam console. Isn't this blatantly obvious since they day they first mentioned it? *sigh*

Re:I still can't tell the difference betwen DX9 an

[FrozenFOXX]

I second the above. I work at a rather successful game company and on Windows we target, no joke, Win98. We make family friendly games and our target is, as you might have guessed, the entire family. Since most people aren't hardcore their systems are average on years old hardware at best, and while many families have hand-me-down boxes and laptops now those are running *even* older hardware. If our games run like crap on someone's ancient box they won't blame the box, they'll blame us, and then not play our games.

So yeah, we could *totally* make use of "the shiny" but to grow our user base that's just not something we can afford. It's how everything's going...id software's id tech 5 is scalable, Unreal Engine 3 is surprisingly scalable, Unity can target mobile platforms AND desktops, it's everywhere. I'm glad that some companies are dedicated to using "the shiny" but as we've all seen it's gameplay that matters, not graphics, and typically when you pump up one the other suffers.

Shit sandwiches...

[Alex Belits]

...are now mandatory!

Congratulations, my Windows-using friends!

perfect answer

[Tom]

The best summary is from Rock, Paper, Shotgun:

Itâ(TM)s been a while since Microsoft pulled the olâ(TM) âoh no, this new version of DirectX couldnâ(TM)t possibly work on earlier versions of Windowsâ(TM) scamgasm, but as the relatively friendly age of Windows 7 is overshadowed by the dawning of the firmâ(TM)s desperate desire to make Windows 8 a cross-platform goliath/software shop, an old habit has returned.

http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2012/11/12/old-dog-old-tricks-ms-locks-directx-11-1-to-win-8/

perfect answer

[Tom]

The best summary is from Rock, Paper, Shotgun:

It's been a while since Microsoft pulled the "oh no, this new version of DirectX couldn't possibly work on earlier versions of Windows" scamgasm, but as the relatively friendly age of Windows 7 is overshadowed by the dawning of the firm's desperate desire to make Windows 8 a cross-platform goliath/software shop, an old habit has returned.

http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2012/11/12/old-dog-old-tricks-ms-locks-directx-11-1-to-win-8/

(reposting because /. stupid UTF-8 non-support mangled the quote the first time)

Actually they'll want the games DX

[Sycraft-fu]

Because AMD's OpenGL drivers are crap. I remember when Brink came out, one of the only games to use OpenGL recently. Ran great on nVidia cards, no surprise since graphics weren't all that high end, but poor even on high end AMD cards.

Any gamer with an AMD card would rather see a DX title: It'll run better.

It'll take a lot more than that

[Sycraft-fu]

People seem to forget that Steam is just a platform to sell games, an online store. It doesn't port your games. So Valve putting Steam on Linux means very little, unless companies start porting their games to Linux.

For that to happen, there will have to be a worthwhile amount of sales for existing Linux titles. Publishers will need to see that the cost of the port will be worth it. Remember it isn't as simple as "Just use OpenGL and you can port it!" Each platform takes work and QA and that means money. They have to see an ROI to want to fund it.

Valve can like Linux all they like, if people don't buy games on Linux, and publishers don't port games to Linux, it won't matter. Valve is worried because they think people might start buying form MS instead of Valve. They make a lot of money doing very little. Steam lets the be highly effective middlemen and make a killing at it. They are worried the Windows Store will threaten that.

Game publishers are much less likely to care. They just want people to but their games in large numbers, they don't care how the people choose to do that.

Re:I still can't tell the difference betwen DX9 an

[Sycraft-fu]

That was largely because DX10 support was gimmicky and done incorrectly. DX10 was a major new model for how things worked (hence the break) and so it required doing things differently. Early attempts didn't, it was just a "Oooo look at what we have!" kind of thing.

You did see the occasional game that did it right, but only later. Now most games use DX11 (since it is backward compatible with DX10, just with less features on 10 hardware).

X11.1

[unixisc]

At first, I read the headline as 'Microsoft Makes X 11.1 a Windows 8 Exclusive' and was impressed that MS has taken an open sourced X11, revved it up a notch, and then made it a Windows 8 exclusive.

Why is this important to me?

[EmagGeek]

My machine is still a dual-core Athlon X2-5200 with 4GB, oh, but I upgraded the video to one of those fanless Geforce 210 cards.

It runs Ubuntu and LibreOffice just fine, and I even enjoy the occasional game on it.

Re:Hear that sound?

[Luckyo]

And yet, even the king of mobile usage, browsing and email is still about 10% of total usage.
ARM is dominant in mobile, and can't even touch desktop and server at the moment. x86/x64 rules that roost.
Ubuntu is about as much of a distro for a normal person as linux on desktop is for a normal person. That is, not at all. It certainly is one for the least informed, with all the mess with advertisements where they clearly expected their target audience to be as ignorant as average windows user. Considering the shitstorm, I guess both them and you were wrong on this one.
And no, gaming isn't leaving "windowze" and moving to linux. At all. Mobile gaming on mobile phones is terrible right now. It's purely casual "five minute fun" with a few exceptions that try to emulate desktop experience and fail. Because the platform is simply not suitable for desktop experience.

Do wake me up when we see games like Deus Ex, Dishonored, Starcraft 2, LoL, WoW, GW2, Mass Effect, XCOM and so on have fully fledged versions on "mobile" and linux. I may agree with you then. But right now, you're trying to join the hype train that isn't even connected to the car with engine yet, and it's pretty unlikely it ever will.

Re:Within reason? WHOSE reason?

[somersault]

Where does this expectation that a company should support old hardware/software forever on every new OS come from?

From the fact that it's generally quite easy to do so. Not necessarily forever, but something like 10 years is very reasonable for keeping drivers available. Do you really expect everyone to have to buy new hardware every couple of years, when the "old" stuff still works fine in today's world? Would you be happy if your car manufacturer stopped servicing your car after a couple of years and told you to buy a new one?

And why shouldn't a company in business to sell something want you to buy the newest model, their goal is to make money after all.

They can do that if they want, but then why should anyone want to buy from them if they're just going to drop support without notice?

This was true for 2000/XP DirectX as well.

[scorp1us]

I was pretty stingy on my OSs. I ran windows 2000 for as long as possible. Once at a LAN party, we tried to play Age of Empires, but I couldn't because I didn't have XP. So I copied the installed image and registry sections from and XP computer and attempted to run it. It came up wth a binch of missing DLL errors which I write down and copied the files off of the same XP computer (all DirectX files) and then it ran... Perfectly.

So this isn't anything new. MS has been using DirectX to push people into newer OSs for at least a decade.

Windows 7

[partyguerrilla]

The systems are fairly similar so there's probably going to be a way to install DirectX 11.1 on Windows 7, just like you could install version 10 on Windows XP with some patching.

M$ is just shooting themselves in the foot..

[Jintsui]

First, its hardly a change that will make anyone move to 8. Second, game developers most certainly are not going to drop Win7 support anytime soon, even if M$ wants them to. Third, this just pushes devs away from Direct X.

Re:Time to retire XP

[RocketRabbit]

Forget StatCounter. It's shit. The only statistics you can trust are from Wikipedia. Everybody uses Wikipedia and it has no fucking pony in the race.

Wikipedia's stats still show XP at roughly 1/3rd of Windows installs.

Re:Mod parent up

[Nikker]

Maybe trying another GPU intensive task (bitcoin mining, OpenCL/CUDA,etc) will trigger what I've found. My Winamp visualization is Milkdrop and the settings are pretty much cranked at 1080p resolution.

We will still need General Purpose Computers

[MrSteveSD]

The problem with this idea of PCs disappearing is that we will still need general purpose computers with large screens and input devices that are comfortable to use for many hours at a time. Are you going to develop a website on your mobile phone, or your games console? Even if you use a tablet, it would be like sitting at work all day staring at a 10 inch monitor. Tiny monitors are not good for productivity at all. Also, touch screens are not good for entering large amounts of text, a task which is quite common.

Perhaps though, you will be able to plug your tablet into a bigger screen on your desk, and also plug a nice keyboard into the tablet. Also a mouse would be nice. Then you realise that you are basically reconstructing a PC. Welcome to the post PC future that still actually needs PCs.

Re:Time to retire XP

[Angeret]

Car analogies aside, I don't expect to pay MS to beta test their OS for a couple of years, still not get a fully functional product and then get told I need to beta test the next iteration because - oh look - ponies!

I would love the chance to use W7 as I paid enough for it, but please, at least could they make it usable for those who don't want it to emulate a bloody boutique storefront? Oh yeah, and take it out of damn beta before moving onto the next version?

BTW, why is it I keep reading about people using 7 (& now 8) where you type the first few letters of a program to find it to run it? WTF is a GUI supposed to be for? If I wanna type in program names to run them (assuming I can remember all those I have on my system right now) I'd be using DOS 5! GUI = point, click, done. What is all this crap with having the need for a sodding search engine on your PC to do simple stuff?

Re:Time to retire XP

[Billly Gates]

UGH I would kill myself to use XP again in that way.

The instant search was my only reason I could give myself to tolerate Vista on my slow laptop. It became nice as I had a lot of files from finance, HR, and other things. The instant search does more than just find programs without a mouse.

It can find documents and even text within documents, such as Sales for Acme 2009 etc. You then have both the excel file with the data and the word report you wrote 3 years ago. Neat hu? I like it too on portables where I used to carry a mouse with me. KNow I use the touchpad just a little bit and can open several things fast. Also I have A TON of entries in all programs. I just run some adobe programs, pc utilities, VS, and Office yet have 12 entries alone. Instant search means I never see that ugly mess.

Re:I still can't tell the difference betwen DX9 an

[Luckyo]

"Never speak of user experience again. You clearly have no clue".

See, that is a train that goes both ways, and just because you always rode it one way, doesn't make you the expert on return trips.

Re:Hear that sound?

[mauriceh]

http://tech.slashdot.org/story/12/11/14/2220221/the-empire-in-decline

Re:Hear that sound?

[Luckyo]

I warmly welcome you to read some of the rather insightful commentary on that particular article. Especially considering that this particular article shows up with different links that support "microsoft is finally dying" hypothesis under different names on slashdot whenever something happens at microsoft. For last ten of fifteen years at least.

As noted above, wake me up when I actually see those AAA games I love to play on other platforms. Until then, it's just as much of a speculative ranting as it was back in the old days of slashdot.

Now if you excuse me, my insomnia is annoying enough to go play a round of LoL.

Change to Linux already!

[apexwm]

If you want to let Microsoft do this time and time again to you, go ahead and continue using Windows. If you want to put a permanent end to this behaviour, make the change to Linux and don't look back. Today's Linux distributions are loaded with software to make the transition easier than ever. Wine is continually being improved to run Windows software on Linux. Try a main Linux distribution like Fedora, Ubuntu, Linux Mint, it won't cost you anything except some time.