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Virtual Boss Keeps Workers On a Short Leash

Gr8Apes writes "Hitachi has created a 'perfect virtual boss.' The company is manufacturing and selling a device intended to increase efficiency in the workplace called the Hitachi Business Microscope (paywalled). 'The device looks like an employee ID badge that most companies issue. Workers are instructed to wear it in the office. Embedded inside each badge, according to Hitachi, are "infrared sensors, an accelerometer, a microphone sensor and a wireless communication device." Hitachi says that the badges record and transmit to management "who talks to whom, how often, where and how energetically." It tracks everything. If you get up to walk around the office a lot, the badge sends information to management about how often you do it, and where you go. If you stop to talk with people throughout the day, the badge transmits who you're talking to (by reading your co-workers' badges), and for how long. Do you contribute at meetings, or just sit there? Either way, the badge tells your bosses.'"

664 comments

  1. In otherwards by halfEvilTech · · Score: 5, Insightful

    It just takes micromanagement to an entirely new level. No thanks to these.

    1. Re:In otherwards by mhajicek · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Get ready for your new Terrafoam domecile.

    2. Re:In otherwards by DoofusOfDeath · · Score: 4, Funny

      It just takes micromanagement to an entirely new level.

      Considering the chip die sizes involved, it's probably better to call to call it nano-management.

    3. Re:In otherwards by Samantha+Wright · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Wait, wait, I know this one! Ah, nothing like innovations in management to remind you that a dystopia is always possible. Anyone who hasn't read Manna, go do it! It is worth it.

      It's too bad so much iconic dystopic science fiction was written or cinematized in the 80s (Nineteen Eighty-Four and Bladerunner, to name but two film examples), since it means that all you need to trick people into thinking it's impossible is a bright and cheery computer interface.

      --
      Bio questions? Ask me to start a Q&A journal. Computer analogies available for most topics!
    4. Re:In otherwards by Jane+Q.+Public · · Score: 0

      It might be fine for Japanese culture... I don't know. But it sure as hell wouldn't fly here. As soon as I found out those were required I'd be out the door.

    5. Re:In otherwards by Joce640k · · Score: 3, Insightful

      When I saw the words "Perfect Boss" I imagined something totally opposite to the rest of the description (which describes the boss from hell...)

      --
      No sig today...
    6. Re:In otherwards by buswolley · · Score: 4, Insightful

      For all the talk that libertarians give about freedom, they sure don't seem to care about worker freedoms in the workplace. Those freedoms are out the door when you step through it.

      --

      A Good Troll is better than a Bad Human.

    7. Re:In otherwards by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Because, for those libertarians, the right to make a profit trumps anything as pesky as workers rights ... and if people weren't willing to work there they could work elsewhere and the 'invisible hand' would sort everything out.

      Those people are largely full of shit.

    8. Re:In otherwards by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0, Interesting

      Probably because libertarians understand freedom better than you seem to.

      You are free to not have these things forced on to you.

      You are also free to sign a contract with your employer and surrender those rights.

      Likewise, the government saying a company cannot implement these policies takes away the companys freedom to run their business as they see fit.

      If you think you can "force" (by law or by gun) freedom then you don't understand what freedom is.

    9. Re:In otherwards by ultranova · · Score: 5, Insightful

      For all the talk that libertarians give about freedom, they sure don't seem to care about worker freedoms in the workplace. Those freedoms are out the door when you step through it.

      Libertarians aren't about freedom (positive liberty), they are about (negative) liberty. What this means in practice is that if your oppressor isn't called "government", you're on your own.

      There's a certain consistency to their position, since guaranteeing my positive liberty to not wear a collar like this removes my employers liberty to demand it as a condition of employment. The problem is that libertarianism vastly overestimates the government's share of power in modern society, and consequently underestimates that held by the private sector, and thus sets its priorities wrong. And of course true believers refuse to acknowledge that any priorities beyond ideological purity even exist.

      A more cynical person might wonder if the movement isn't backed by the very oppressors who want to deflect would-be freedom fighters from themselves to windmills. But surely our corporate overlords wouldn't do something so dishonest.

      --

      Forget magic. Any technology distinguishable from divine power is insufficiently advanced.

    10. Re:In otherwards by penglust · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Another anonymous BS artist. In a modern society governments are created by the people (where have I heard that before) to ensure the common good. There is the freedom to do anything to your employees you want and then there is the freedom to not be treated like a slave. Where have most of the battles been fought in the last 150 years or so.

      That is until the the corrupt domineering religious right started forcing there values onto everybody else at the republican corporate ran prison system and then the extra greedy rich used them to extend their money power on congress.

      Our government today is mostly bought and sold just as you would have it. Fuck you with forced at gun point. How about some common decency.

    11. Re:In otherwards by VGPowerlord · · Score: 1

      I don't know, it sounds a bit like this one, too, except with businesses instead of government.

      --
      GLaDOS for President 2016! "Well here we are again. It's always such a pleasure." -- GLaDOS, 2011
    12. Re:In otherwards by Gort65 · · Score: 3, Interesting

      It might be fine for Japanese culture... I don't know. But it sure as hell wouldn't fly here. As soon as I found out those were required I'd be out the door.

      The problem is that there is always some desperate person willing to take your place, either out of apathy or economic necessity. Eventually, if enough of these people fill in the vacancies, then you'll find this sort of thing spreading to other workplaces, again chasing you out. It'll spread if it's allowed to. Still, there's always collective action to avoid this kind of thing. Pity that such defensive action is sort of frowned upon today, though.

    13. Re:In otherwards by Jane+Q.+Public · · Score: 1

      "The problem is that there is always some desperate person willing to take your place, either out of apathy or economic necessity. Eventually, if enough of these people fill in the vacancies, then you'll find this sort of thing spreading to other workplaces, again chasing you out."

      It wouldn't last. That worked for a while for drug testing, too, until people realized what a farcical damage to society it is.

    14. Re:In otherwards by sqrt(2) · · Score: 4, Interesting

      I've mostly stopped typing out my own rebuttals and just started linking to the specific part of my .sig that addresses whatever particular libertarian fallacy someone is invoking. Rarely do I need to go offscript, and even more rarely is a competent rebuttal offered that doesn't distill down to a simple difference in values. Libertarians are, at heart, corporate fascists. They are simply working from a different value system--a horrifyingly barbarous one.

      You can consider the debate over when you get them to affirm their subscription to the unadulterated version of those beliefs. For example, I've cornered one before and forced them to admit that rampant poverty is preferable to even a small amount of taxation to alleviate it.

      I'll give them credit for their absolute devotion to ideological purity. That's real devotion.

      --
      If you build it, nerds will come. Soylentnews.org
    15. Re:In otherwards by Psyborgue · · Score: 3, Insightful

      You're missing the point. A business that did this would be at a disadvantage because of the dissatisfied employees (especially competent ones) who would go elsewhere. The usual counter argument is that if everybody does it, then there is no "freedom", but of course this ignores the fact that the one business that didn't do this would have a massive advantage. Happy workers are productive workers. So yes, the market sorts it out here too.

      Yeah, sure, there might be situations where entire low skilled sectors of work did this sort of thing (like with fast food drug testing), but at the same time, that simply provides an incentive to better one's self and maybe go back to college. Plenty of people do it. It's not always easy but if people work at it, it's almost always possible.

    16. Re: In otherwards by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

      And if every company just happens to coincidentally implement the same antiworker policies then you are perfectly free to starve and die! Another win for the free market!

    17. Re:In otherwards by buswolley · · Score: 1

      So, by your account there should be lots of liberty for workers in a workplace. However, there in practice there isn't this great liberty.

      --

      A Good Troll is better than a Bad Human.

    18. Re:In otherwards by sqrt(2) · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Happy workers are productive workers.

      I have a hard time believing someone can be so ignorant of history. Do you think slaves were happy? What about feudal serfs? Or pre-unionized steel workers? Or the children working in textile factories?

      Capital has never, and will never, care about the happiness of their workers unless those workers force them to care. We had to fight tooth and nail for the rights we have now; eight hour days, forty hour weeks, weekends, workplace safety, sick leave, maternity leave, minimum wage. These things make workers happy, and none of them were offered up voluntarily. They had to be bought with the blood and the lives of the working class from generations ago, and capital has been tirelessly waging a ceaseless campaign to take them back.

      --
      If you build it, nerds will come. Soylentnews.org
    19. Re:In otherwards by Gort65 · · Score: 1

      It wouldn't last. That worked for a while for drug testing, too, until people realized what a farcical damage to society it is.

      Well, let's hope that society remains as vigilant.

    20. Re:In otherwards by xaxa · · Score: 1

      It might be fine for Japanese culture... I don't know. But it sure as hell wouldn't fly here. As soon as I found out those were required I'd be out the door.

      It's probably not a problem in your field -- highly skilled people (e.g. software developers) are probably too valuable to have this forced upon them.

      But there are plenty of less-highly skilled office workers: receptionists, secretaries, etc.

      So, it's still worth making a stand against this kind of thing -- I don't think anyone should have to wear this kind of device at work.

    21. Re:In otherwards by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Maybe they only gave that talk in order to sound like they were contributing at a meeting.

    22. Re:In otherwards by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Possible? More like inevitable.

    23. Re:In otherwards by master_kaos · · Score: 2

      Ok so maybe they should also have you wear a shock collar so when the device determines you are sleeping on the job, you get a few thousand volts put through your body.
      Oh and heaven forbid if it detects you stealing office supplies, it will chop off a toe! But hey freedom!

    24. Re:In otherwards by pnutjam · · Score: 1

      if only people had realized how stupid drug testing is...
      http://www.wthr.com/story/2133...

    25. Re:In otherwards by morgauxo · · Score: 4, Insightful

      " that simply provides an incentive to better one's self and maybe go back to college"

      The problem with this logic is that society needs a certain number of people to work in those low end jobs. Society does not however need 100% of it's individuals to hold college degrees. We already have factories looking for college degrees when they hire line workers. These are jobs where the workers are doing simple repetative tasks like turning screws, inspecting paint as parts go by on a line, etc... all day long. Why? Because they have so many potential workers to chose from and no better way to differentiate between them!

      How many years of college will we all need to escape the collar? How much money in student loans? The worse things get in these low-end jobs the more people try to get out of them the higher the bar gets but with no real advantage for society.

    26. Re:In otherwards by jader3rd · · Score: 4, Interesting

      You're missing the point. A business that did this would be at a disadvantage because of the dissatisfied employees (especially competent ones) who would go elsewhere.

      My in-laws were shocked to learn that my employer doesn't ban digital frames in the office. The reason is because my father-in-laws employer (Boeing) does (or at least did at the time). Apparently some bean counter calculated that if every employee brought in a digital frame into the workplace it would cost the company X many dollars. So they banned them. I asked about employee moral, etc, and my father-in-law looked at me and said "Where else would they go?"

    27. Re:In otherwards by hendrips · · Score: 1

      I'm not entirely unsympathetic to your point, but slaves, serfs and very early steel workers are poor examples. Sure, they weren't happy, by and large, but then again they also weren't very productive either. Which is exactly what he was claiming.

    28. Re:In otherwards by operagost · · Score: 3, Insightful

      You can't legislate common decency. Otherwise, we'd have to ban 4chan and about half of the shows on "TruTV".

      --

      Gamingmuseum.com: Give your 3D accelerator a rest.
    29. Re:In otherwards by Reverand+Dave · · Score: 2

      My good sir, don't sully the "good" name of 4chan by comparing it to that filth.

      --
      I got here through a series of tubes
    30. Re: In otherwards by loufoque · · Score: 0

      Freedom includes the right to establish a contract that strips your freedom.

    31. Re:In otherwards by operagost · · Score: 0

      Libertarians aren't about freedom (positive liberty), they are about (negative) liberty. What this means in practice is that if your oppressor isn't called "government", you're on your own.

      Do you like making up stuff so you can pretend to win arguments? "Negative liberties" refer to interference from others, including both private citizens and government. The ONE THING a government should do, but mostly does its best NOT to do, is to PROTECT PEOPLE'S "negative liberty". Progressives try to "enhance" people's "positive liberty"-- which is a zero-sum game.

      --

      Gamingmuseum.com: Give your 3D accelerator a rest.
    32. Re:In otherwards by Jeremy+Erwin · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Yay for indentured servitude.

      Or alternatively,

      You load sixteen tons, what do you get
      Another day older and deeper in debt
      Saint Peter don't you call me 'cause I can't go
      I owe my soul to the company store

    33. Re:In otherwards by operagost · · Score: 0

      Cool story, bro.

      --

      Gamingmuseum.com: Give your 3D accelerator a rest.
    34. Re: In otherwards by sqrt(2) · · Score: 1

      It's the GPL vs. BSD license debate all over again!

      --
      If you build it, nerds will come. Soylentnews.org
    35. Re: In otherwards by loufoque · · Score: 1

      I thought it was agreed that BSD won.

    36. Re:In otherwards by Zontar+The+Mindless · · Score: 1

      Check into something called a "race to the bottom", then get back to us.

      --
      Il n'y a pas de Planet B.
    37. Re:In otherwards by Belial6 · · Score: 2

      I would say that anyone who believes in corporations isn't really a libertarian, as a corporation is just a government granting of special privileges. Those privileges are a major part of what gives corporations undue power of employees.

    38. Re:In otherwards by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0, Insightful

      Our government today is mostly bought and sold just as you would have it.

      Yeah, it's all those nasty Republicans. Right? No Democrats would stand for that. Right? No lobbiests in the Whitehouse under the Democrats. Right? Black check at the beginning of Obama's term wasn't spent on bailouts just like the Republicans. Right?

      You're part of the problem.

      Posted as AC just to burn your ass.

    39. Re:In otherwards by Belial6 · · Score: 1

      Do you have any citations on slaves serfs and early steel workers being less productive than modern workers. And no fair cheating by using advancements in technology to make it look like it was the happiness level that made any change in productivity.

    40. Re:In otherwards by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      They weren't productive? Do you have any study that indicates this is the case, and compares paid vs forced labor under the same conditions (i.e. no different equipment)?

    41. Re:In otherwards by DigiShaman · · Score: 2

      You've obviously never had to deal with MBA holding managers that have an extreme hard-on for six sigma metrics.

      --
      Life is not for the lazy.
    42. Re:In otherwards by Floyd-ATC · · Score: 1

      There's probably an app for this anyway, the badge is unnecessary. Chances are, you're already carrying a computer with an accelerometer, GPS and microphone in your pocket. And you probably even paid for it yourself. You just have to trust whoever built the damned thing that it's not recording everything you say and do. Go ahead, tell me it can't be done.

      --
      Time flies when you don't know what you're doing
    43. Re:In otherwards by TheGratefulNet · · Score: 1

      its the kind of shit I've heard about, for example, samsung. no way in hell I'd want to work for a company like that! they track you even on bathroom breaks (this is engineering, not assembly line stuff).

      if the company is eastern-based, they micromanage to extreme levels. and the US is catching up (sigh), trying for the same results.

      yup, lets all join the race to the bottom where we lose everything we fought for back in the turn of the century union/corp wars.

      --

      --
      "It is now safe to switch off your computer."
    44. Re:In otherwards by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You're missing the point. A business that did this would be at a disadvantage because of the dissatisfied employees (especially competent ones) who would go elsewhere. The usual counter argument is that if everybody does it, then there is no "freedom", but of course this ignores the fact that the one business that didn't do this would have a massive advantage. Happy workers are productive workers. So yes, the market sorts it out here too.

      My impression has been that the labor market is so inefficient that the only mechanisms by which it "sorts out" are outside the market. The US Civil War, for instance. Or Tompkins Square. Or Haymarket.

      It's simply too easy for a limited number of employers to play employees against each other, and employees are all too willing to race to the bottom. After all, the choice between no job and a demeaning, abusive job is not much of a choice at all.

      By the way, that's supposed to be the function of social safety net programs: to allow workers the flexibility to look for a decent job without the fear that their baby will starve to death. Collecting unemployment for 2 years may be overkill, but society has to step in where The Market is inefficient.

    45. Re:In otherwards by JoeMerchant · · Score: 1

      Libertarians own their own businesses, or wish they did.

    46. Re:In otherwards by SuperCharlie · · Score: 4, Insightful

      The right-left argument is like leaving a note with "Look on the other side" written on both sides to keep the idiots busy while being gang-raped.

    47. Re:In otherwards by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      B.S.

      http://www.history.com/this-day-in-history/ford-factory-workers-get-40-hour-week

    48. Re:In otherwards by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Of course capitalists are myopic but this doesn't make the grandparent's assertion any less true.

      In the end, who won USA's civil war? The side with slaves? When did economy really flourished? Before or after Ford noting that it was good for employees to have enough time and money to buy his cars?

    49. Re:In otherwards by next_ghost · · Score: 1

      How many years of college will we all need to escape the collar? How much money in student loans? The worse things get in these low-end jobs the more people try to get out of them the higher the bar gets but with no real advantage for society.

      If you want to escape the collar, you'll have to look for a way that will fit inside your garage or back yard. College degree don't work anymore.

    50. Re:In otherwards by Khashishi · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Libertarians hate the state, but their ideal society is one where a corporation can essentially have all of the power of the state, but without any representation. They will say, you are free to leave a corporation and do business with another. How is that different than, if you don't like the laws of a state, go to another state?

      This isn't hypothetical. Company towns in the past were owned by a corporation which provided essentially all government functions. Quite the libertarian paradise.

    51. Re:In otherwards by JoeMerchant · · Score: 1

      I worked somewhere that had access badges, "listening device" phones, cameras, etc. 99.9% of the time, they were ignored, unused - people went about their business as if they didn't exist, because, except for one instance every 3 years or so, quietly affecting one of 1000 employees, the systems were a non-issue in daily "business life."

      However, the people at the top had the means, if they ever felt the itch to exercise it.

    52. Re:In otherwards by cyberchondriac · · Score: 1

      That's history, yes, but what of modern companies like Google, where the culture and work environment is in fact pretty cool. I'd say their workers are productive. In any case, your statement doesn't negate what the parent said. Happy workers in a modern world where slavery is outlawed are more productive than ones who are resentful and miserable but can't be whipped or beaten for it.
      It's no more right to force certain workers on employers than it is to force certain employment terms on workers. Ideally, employment should be treated as a contract between worker and employer, one providing services for pay, without changes without both parties consent; and the job of law here (technically) is to keep things as fair as possible for everyone.
      Granted, that doesn't work all that well; my employer has changed the terms of my employment responsibilities numerous times, without my consent. Yet, I have no ability to walk in one day and announce I will immediately take a 15% pay raise, or take every other Friday off. But, if I'm unhappy enough, I still have the option to do less work or leave, too.

      --

      Look back up at my post, now look back down, you're on the Internet. Now look back up. I'm a signature.
    53. Re:In otherwards by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I am ok with drug testing welfare recipients. Not because "Drugs are bad, m'kay?", but because the hell if someone living on welfare should be spending money on shit like that. If you can afford to keep yourself in an altered state of mind every day it just might be worth looking into whether or not you actually need that financial assistance again.

      Of course having worked in retail and seen firsthand how a large portion of food stamp recipients spend that money, I am a bit biased. A significant portion of those people would still have money problems if you just gave them 100k a year. You can't fix people that don't even see the problem.

    54. Re:In otherwards by atticus9 · · Score: 1

      Why would you imagine a libertarian thought this up? It sounds like the opposite of what free markets are about (caring about your behavior, instead of results).

    55. Re:In otherwards by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Honestly, I think I'd rather just go to prison than wear this fucking abomination.

    56. Re:In otherwards by JoeMerchant · · Score: 1

      >Do you think slaves were happy?

      Actually, yes, happiness has a floating baseline. You can be made to shovel poo 14 hours a day, 7 days a week, and find things to be happy about, even cheerful most of the day. You can also be part of the 0.1% most wealthy and successful people in the most wealthy and prosperous country on the planet, living in the most amazingly "great to be a homo-sapiens" time in known history and be so inconsolably unhappy that you take your own life.

      Slavery, serfdom, sweatshops aren't happiness problems, they are fairness problems, though I will grant that having unfairness thrown in your face is a good way to become unhappy, unless you can somehow deflect it.

      Life is still far from fair, but we are mostly, improving.

    57. Re: In otherwards by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      What the fuck did this have to do with libertarians?

    58. Re:In otherwards by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      There's a certain consistency to their position, since guaranteeing my positive liberty to not wear a collar like this removes my employers liberty to demand it as a condition of employment.

      The libertarian perspective here is that you and your employer, should you both wish it, should be able to make an agreement that you will wear this collar. If your employer demands that you do so, and you refuse it, you're free to find another employer, and they're free to find another employee. In this scenario you both have perfect freedom - both the "negative" and "positive" freedoms you describe.

      Modern society, however, puts certain limitations on what sort of agreements you can make. This is, unequivocally, a loss of freedom. But, it does have the nice side-effect that people are less likely to find themselves excercising their freedom to starve to death in the streets.

      I'm not a devotee of the libertarian school of thought - I like my government-funded road network, healthcare, etc. (No, I don't live in the US.) But you're making a strawman argument here, and you needed to be called out.

    59. Re:In otherwards by sqrt(2) · · Score: 2

      Do you think he did this out of the goodness of his anti-Semitic heart, or because he saw the writing on the wall and wanted to get out ahead of the labor movement? Things were heading in that direction anyway and he just preemptively implemented a policy which was rapidly approaching. Why was it approaching? The labor movement.

      He probably avoided a lot of smashed windows.

      --
      If you build it, nerds will come. Soylentnews.org
    60. Re:In otherwards by Jane+Q.+Public · · Score: 1

      In the intended context of my comment, legislators are not "the people".

      Legislators do stupid things all the time. I can only wish it were otherwise.

    61. Re:In otherwards by next_ghost · · Score: 2

      "Negative liberties" refer to interference from others, including both private citizens and government.

      There's a slight problem here: Negative liberty is directly proportional to the size of your bank account. If you can't afford to defend your negative liberty on your own against interference from others, you lose it.

      Progressives try to "enhance" people's "positive liberty"-- which is a zero-sum game.

      Not by a long shot. If you don't have to spend so much time defending yourself from people who keep trying to make your life miserable for their own personal gain, you can actually go about using the more enjoyable aspects of your remaining liberty.

    62. Re:In otherwards by newcastlejon · · Score: 1

      Anyone who hasn't read Manna, go do it! It is worth it.

      Apart from the second half. The author does a good job showing how technology can be used to turn people into mindless worker bees, then later pull the rug out from under them. Sadly he/she doesn't do nearly as well when it comes to talking about how things could be done right. The Australia project(?) was very much in need of fleshing out.

      --
      If God forks the Universe every time you roll a die, he'd better have a damned good memory.
    63. Re:In otherwards by Jane+Q.+Public · · Score: 2

      "I am ok with drug testing welfare recipients. Not because "Drugs are bad, m'kay?", but because the hell if someone living on welfare should be spending money on shit like that. If you can afford to keep yourself in an altered state of mind every day it just might be worth looking into whether or not you actually need that financial assistance again."

      The problem is not so much that drug testing -- if it actually did what it was intended to do -- is inherently a bad thing. The problems are twofold:

      The first is presumption of guilt. You are guilty until proven otherwise (by a drug test). Plain and simple, this is an un-American concept, and it should be taken out and shot dead with a cannon. It is simply not a concept accepted by those who truly believe in justice.

      The second problem is that drug tests are unreliable. And the seeming paradox is that the better they get, the worse they are. Worse, that is, in the sense that they demonize innocent people. But explaining why this is would take up far too much space here. Look up "base rate fallacy" on Wikipedia.

    64. Re:In otherwards by next_ghost · · Score: 1

      My impression has been that the labor market is so inefficient that the only mechanisms by which it "sorts out" are outside the market. The US Civil War, for instance. Or Tompkins Square. Or Haymarket.

      Well, duh. When the supply of something is too big, the market will reduce it by force, making companies go out of business to reduce production and restore balance between supply and demand. But this kind of solution is unacceptable when there's too much human labor available. The market exists to serve people's needs, not the other way around.

      Yet some people still believe that the law of supply and demand will magically bend around human labor and let everybody become rich despite the mathematical impossibility of that happening.

    65. Re:In otherwards by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      (posted anon to preserve mods)

      How many years of college will we all need to escape the collar?

      I suspect that the wring question is being asked... now if you were instead to ask "how much marketable skill will you need to escape the collar?", then it becomes more true-to-life, and the answer is an amazingly small amount in certain skillsets.

      Take the high-end sysadmin. If this were 2001, then yeah - he took whatever he could get. But nowadays, a sysadmin worth a damn is hard to find, and can set his own terms in many cases (within reason, naturally. For instance, my demand for a personal harem is still "stuck in HR".)

      I mention that because of one important business reason: the employee you abuse today may very well end up being the critical talent that goes to your biggest competitor tomorrow, or starts a business that eventually consigns yours to oblivion. Or, he just works for someone else entirely, leaving you to pick from varying degrees of incompetence, malice, or ignorance (you pick) in order to fill his now-vacant role.

      Case in point? My last employer is ranked among the 10 worst companies to work for (according to Glassdoor anyway), and they have had a damned hard time trying to get someone to fill the shoes that myself and a few others left about a year ago. Last I heard, they've been forced to jack the salary offers to 20% above the average for our area... and they're still having an impossible time keeping someone there.

    66. Re:In otherwards by Jartan · · Score: 1

      Libertarians only care about freedom on public property. Once you're on their land it's their way or the highway.

    67. Re: In otherwards by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Libitariens, or should I say, the current (new right wing configuration that adores that bitch that wrote that juvenile (takers and makers book) ) seem to possess an amazing lack of historical context of what new world they are attempting to create, sort of a "new gilded age" of the super rich.....hmm, I suggest that they read all about the French Revolution and especially the Russian revolution because I fear that we are rapidly heading in that direction and I do not want to lose all my tech stuff/internettubes/future nano/biotech life extension furry body mods/cyborg implants to a new generation of revolutionaries that want to burn down the house!!!

    68. Re:In otherwards by Gr8Apes · · Score: 1

      Or eat a couple of poppyseed bread items and then go in for your "highly accurate" test...

      --
      The cesspool just got a check and balance.
    69. Re:In otherwards by JWW · · Score: 0

      Yep, its definitely the damned Republicans that have fucked everything up.

      Obama wil be our savior and restore the government doing things for the common good. He'll stop the wars, he'll close the secret prisons, he'll stop the surveillance on everyone, he'll apply the law fairly and justly to all, he'll pick only the best people to work for him and lie about what his administration does to congress.

      Yeah, libertarians are the problem here, yep. All that personal freedom shit is just a ruse to let businesses screw employees. Its to bad all the libertarians have to get in line behind all the Democrats and all the Republicans that are using government to screw everyone over AND helping businesses do it.

      The Libertarian party has almost no power at the Federal level, why the fuck are the powers that be so damned scared of it?

    70. Re:In otherwards by pnutjam · · Score: 1

      failing a drug test does not in any way indicate someone stays in an altered state all the time. Alcohol, cocaine, heroine, and meth all leave your body within a pretty small time frame. Your not going to catch those people unless they are really stupid.

      Marijuana stays detectable for an extended period, way past the time it affects someone. You are already seeing inklings of this issue in states where it has been legalized and they want to keep people from driving while in an altered state.

      My point is that these tests don't do anything except provide afew convenient scape goats. they don't provide anywhere near the savings they are touted to bring. They cost money and they demean people. Unfortunately there is a subset of the population that has to have their boot on someones neck to feel good about themselves.

    71. Re:In otherwards by Samantha+Wright · · Score: 1

      Well... that's one of the perks of the (very slightly pyramid-scheme-like) nature of transhumanism—it's diminishingly difficult to accurately predict what innovations will be practical or broadly appealing, so sometimes it's better to just say "if we throw all of our energy into it, it's sure to be fantastic!" rather than to make specific promises. (Of course, the story does make quite a few specific suggestions, so that's not really what you're talking about, but it seemed pertinent.)

      --
      Bio questions? Ask me to start a Q&A journal. Computer analogies available for most topics!
    72. Re: In otherwards by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Terrafoam? I'll be in the Australia project, thanks... If only I could find out where to buy shares....

    73. Re: In otherwards by DidgetMaster · · Score: 1

      ...And if every gas company just happens to coincidentally charge $20 for each gallon of gasoline, then we are all in trouble because we would have to pay it, right? And if every worker just happens to coincidentally demand a base salary of at least $100,000 then small businesses would have to pay it because they would need the workers, right? No. The real "free market" does not work that way. Someone will decide to sell you gas cheaper, and then everyone will compete on price until the price reflects the true market value. Likewise, enough workers will settle for less until the right price for labor is reached. Businesses who adopt "antiworker policies" will lose them to companies with better policies. (Until the government starts demanding all kinds of regulations that drive out competitive behavior...)

    74. Re:In otherwards by buswolley · · Score: 1
      Exactly.

      How about this. I can't reveal how much I am getting paid.

      Without information about wages, how can we know if we have made a good choice?

      How about this, I draw a paycheck, and the business doesn't get to know how much I choose to draw.

      --

      A Good Troll is better than a Bad Human.

    75. Re:In otherwards by sqrt(2) · · Score: 4, Funny

      Maybe if we actually had a viable liberal party in the USA. It's not a two sided note, it's a Möbius strip

      --
      If you build it, nerds will come. Soylentnews.org
    76. Re:In otherwards by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Our government today is mostly bought and sold just as you would have it. Fuck you with forced at gun point.

      I'm not sure if this is an intentional straw man argument or a gross misunderstanding. Most libertarians want to limit how much power the government has because it WILL be bought and sold no matter what we do. Some of us would even prefer multiple overlapping private legal systems so WHEN corruption rears its ugly head, we'll be able to take our business elsewhere. But I don't think many of us support the crony capitalist state any more than you do.

    77. Re:In otherwards by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Just because someone has a bad idea, that doesn't mean that it should be illegal. That, apparently, is the difference between the libertarian philosophy, and whatever you call yours.

    78. Re:In otherwards by buswolley · · Score: 1

      When people arent working, then the economy is not working efficiently.

      --

      A Good Troll is better than a Bad Human.

    79. Re:In otherwards by udippel · · Score: 2

      I wasn't really convinced that 'libertarians' are equivalent to Adam Smith followers?
      I rather thought that people on Slashdot have a statistical higher chance to be libertarians than the mean of the population. And until now I don't think that Slashdot-ers have a similar high preference for inhumane working environs. rather on the contrary.
      To give an example only.
      I am not even convinced that this nannying will actually work. I don't even the bosses neither. What a lot of boring crap will they have to endure listening to!

    80. Re:In otherwards by CrimsonAvenger · · Score: 2

      I've cornered one before and forced them to admit that rampant poverty is preferable to even a small amount of taxation to alleviate it.

      Just out of curiousity, how would you manage to have "rampant poverty" that "a small amount of taxation" could alleviate?

      An actual example would do, or even a reasonable hypothetical. With numbers, of course. It's easy to handwave situations when you don't have any numbers behind your assertions.

      --

      "I do not agree with what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it"
    81. Re:In otherwards by gordo3000 · · Score: 1

      if I'm dumb enough to work in such a place, and I freely choose to do it, who are you to tell me I can't? Maybe the job comes with daily blow jobs from models or a paycheck of a million dollars a month and I'm willing to risk it? If you don't create laws that basically institutionalize certain companies, and freely allow labor to organize (i.e. you can union bust via physical intimidation and unions can't imprison the manager till they get a good contract) you end up with good outcomes. I credit unions with improving labor's situation far more than OSHA (or any other government group).

      People won't magically start doing dumb things because the government says they are allowed to. A small group may, but history tells us labor isn't just some powerless group that can't organize. The problem in the 1800s and early turn of century was the use of force to break union organizing, and the problem (in my opinion) today is making it incredibly easy for labor to behave badly and have their benefits government guaranteed.

    82. Re:In otherwards by udippel · · Score: 1

      Insightful, +5

      Worse in the so-called - or self-described - top nation in the world: First you have to scramble through college, and thereby pile up debts of a medium disaster [and the capital raking in the profits] and then you have to become a lowly paid blue collar worker to pay your debts off [and who rakes in the profits?].

      Luckily, the libraries still stock "The Condition of the Working Class in England" by Engels; Capital: Critique of Political Economy by Marx and likewise. It might come handy, to start reading again!

    83. Re:In otherwards by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

      There's too many of these BS comments about libertarians, by people who are completely confused, to respond to all of them, so I'm responding to just this one. Libertarians are about *everyone's* freedom. That includes the freedom to make stupid rules about the place you work. It also includes the freedom to leave that job and seek another. And the freedom to start your own business with the rules you want, with minimal barrier to entry.

      * There is no "right to profit." It is a straw man. You have property rights, so if you own a property, you can decide how that property is used. You can sell it, give it to someone to improve in exchange for something else (like money), decide that it may only be held by people wearing pink gloves, or whatever. I suspect you're confusing property rights with something you've imagined.

      * Someone else said that Libertarians aren't interested in anything but the government. Not true. To a libertarian, rights are sacrosanct. It doesn't matter who tramples those rights, it's considered wrong. The government just happens to be a major constituent responsible for infringing on individuals' rights, and so is a very common target for the discussion. And the government is in a special position where it has legal, if not moral, authority to infringe upon individuals' rights.

      * Someone else talks about a person that they got to admit to something they don't like, and this someone happened to be a libertarian. Well, boo hoo, but one person does not make for data.

      * Someone else confuses the transitive property. A is B, therefore B is A. This is not always true. The specific confusion is around a quote of "happy workers are productive workers" and the quoter talks about "were slaves happy?" Just because happy workers are productive workers does not mean all productive workers are happy workers. I doubt that anyone except the small minded and liars would make that claim.

      Now, speaking as a libertarian myself, I find this technology to be stupid, damaging to morale, and damaging to trust in the company that chooses to use it. I will not work for such a company under any circumstances that I can forsee. However, should a company choose to use this technology, I will not use force (of law) to stop them. They can have all the consequences that they deserve for what I see as a bad decision. They can deal with the low performance of a demoralized employee base. They can deal with high turnover to companies that trust their employees. They can deal with low institutional knowledge, for information lost due to turnover. They can deal with unhappy customers, due to all of the above. They can deal with lost profits due to unhappy customers. And with damage to their stock prices. And the owners can risk loss of their business, should it come to that.

      I also will not stop the employees from working there. The employees who choose to work there may decide that the costs of holding the job are less than the value that the job provides. That is their choice to make.

      I will not stop people from speaking out against the company. In fact, I may join them in their outcry.

      Here, you see a true libertarian's position, not all the made-up bull that you keep imagining.

    84. Re: In otherwards by udippel · · Score: 1

      ... nevermind ...

    85. Re:In otherwards by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Slaves and pre-union steel workers were not exactly the golden child of labor efficiency. They were cheap, but productivity per person was terribly low, which required more people to make up the difference, which required the labor to be cheap. The result of Ford's move to offer $5 per day with an 8 hour work day, vastly more than anyone else in the industry at the time, is solid evidence of this fact. They were able to move to a three shift system, their employees also became loyal customers, and lower turn-over ment less time spent training inexperienced people. In short, happy works had better productivity.

    86. Re:In otherwards by epyT-R · · Score: 0

      Like him, you're also glossing over reality. In this case you misrepresent the reality of governments "created by the people" to "ensure the common good." Those phrases sound like they were read right out of a playbook. History has shown us that societies ruled by governments that prefix everything with "The People's $whatever" are anything but free.

      Dissatisfied workers could theoretically create their own company that does not require them to wear the badges and go into competition with their old employers. However, the reality is that such employers often enjoy natural market dominance which prevents any real competition, and many of them use governments to manipulate the market in order to ensure that dominance. Well monied lobbyists are the bread and butter of every western government. This is why workers rights are a good thing, and when I say rights, I mean rights, not privileges. Things like 40 hour work weeks and sick leave reflect the limits of human existence. We are not robots and we cannot function well as a society if we work ourselves beyond endurance.

      However, on the flip side, 'civil rights' has been largely perverted into a social weapon to shut people down when they step out of line. It's done by making it easy to accuse specific groups of 'discrimination', while arguing for privilege (at taxpayer expense) under the guise of fighting for 'rights' for other groups, who are told the former is their social and economic enemy. This creates indefinite cycles of resentment in both camps, leading to those "we must do more" propaganda campaigns, which of course helps keep statists in office. It also causes private institutions to pass paranoid policies that oppress their employees in order to protect themselves from legal collateral damage. It may have been conceived to do this from the beginning, with the public narrative just good marketing, but even if that's not the case, the current reality is that as long as the ruling class uses the civil rights mantra to keep the rest of us divided over things like race, gender, and other 'identity' nonsense, we'll be too busy squabbling amongst ourselves (and irrationally voting for more government in the process) to care what the 1% are doing. After all, they don't have to answer to government, really, except when one of their own tosses them to the wolves.

      I agree that the religious right is corrupt, but I don't see much difference between their demands for government enforced religion, and the left's culturally marxist policy making. They both use their ideological 'faith' as justification to grow the size of the state for their own benefit. The 'greedy rich' you speak of support BOTH parties for a good reason. There is no such thing as 'common decency.' Those are words of tyrants regardless of what party they hail from. Don't you recall the religious right spouting such nonsense, too?

    87. Re: In otherwards by Rakarra · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Businesses who adopt "antiworker policies" will lose them to companies with better policies. (Until the government starts demanding all kinds of regulations that drive out competitive behavior...)

      Not that I'm a big fan of what unions turned into, but they arose precisely because the above is not what happened. Workers had no mobility at all, between jobs, between companies, they had no input on company rules, and that was the standard across industries. Feudalism is feudalism whether it's the lord that holds the reigns or the company.

      So indeed, I thank God for the unions back in those days -- they defused the situation, made conditions better, and the collapse that Karl Marx anticipated did not happen in the US as it did in Russia and other countries.

    88. Re: In otherwards by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Yeah, look how evil regulation stopped companies from honestly competing on worker's wages, just recently!.. Oh, wait, it was the other way around.

      See, you've got a false equivalency. A company has much more negotiating power than a worker. People need food, to get food they need money, and to get money they need to work.

      Acting all high and mighty and walking out of an interview works much better when you're the one with a billions in cash to keep you going and hundreds of applicants, not when you're the one with a family to feed and a dozen viable jobs for you around.

    89. Re:In otherwards by lgw · · Score: 1

      What "special privileges" have corporations been granted by government? They're just a convenient way to do a limited partnership in an LLC.

      --
      Socialism: a lie told by totalitarians and believed by fools.
    90. Re:In otherwards by next_ghost · · Score: 1

      I read that. While the base idea of the story is interesting, the actual plot (or rather complete lack thereof) is boring as hell. Chapter 1: an employee management system that micromanages you as if you were a retarded three-year-old. It might help employees during the very first week on the job but nobody could stand that kind of treatment for more than a month. I expected that employee morale would plunge through the floor by the end of chapter and everybody would start messing with the system in very creative ways, making that experiment a well-deserved failure.

      Instead, it's a resounding success and we get 3 chapters of rambling narrative about how things go downhill from there over about the next 10 years. When the novel returns back to the protagonist (now living in a high-tech slum), he just keeps longing for a way out of the slum without actually thinking of any real plan while his buddy delivers a lame philosophical rant that it's people's own fault they all ended up in the slum because they didn't care about the rest of the world back when they still had any means to actually change something (tell us something we don't know already). Next chapter: Deus Ex Machina! How predictable, given protagonist's longing for escape without any actual plan. Then the author just wanks to his fantasies of perfect egalitarian Utopia without any plot happening at all for 3 chapters. The End.

    91. Re:In otherwards by lgw · · Score: 1

      Do you not believe a libertarian would want to limit the power of a "corporation which provided essentially all government functions"? Maybe some would - there are simple-minded believers in every philosophy - but that's hardly well thought-out.

      --
      Socialism: a lie told by totalitarians and believed by fools.
    92. Re:In otherwards by next_ghost · · Score: 1

      Define "efficiently." There are so many mutually exclusive metrics of market efficiency that the word itself is completely meaningless without further elaboration.

    93. Re:In otherwards by omglolbah · · Score: 1

      There is a third issue here...

      Unless the segment of drug users is fairly large, blanket testing does not pay for itself.
      So even if the two other issues were ignored, it would still be a bad idea.

    94. Re:In otherwards by lgw · · Score: 1

      I don't carry my phone around with me at work - I've always thought that rude. I'd look like the perfect worker if judged by my phone, either that or dead.

      --
      Socialism: a lie told by totalitarians and believed by fools.
    95. Re:In otherwards by omglolbah · · Score: 1

      They talked about blocking news sites, social networks and music streaming services where I work.

      That talk lasted about 3 days after the department meeting, then it went dead silent on the issue.

      Management were told in no uncertain terms that if this were to happen, people would stop all goodwill towards the company and just do EXACTLY what was required by them to get paid, and nothing more... Aaaaand the blocking talk went silent ;)

    96. Re:In otherwards by sexconker · · Score: 0

      Probably because libertarians understand freedom better than you seem to.

      You are free to not have these things forced on to you.

      You are also free to sign a contract with your employer and surrender those rights.

      Likewise, the government saying a company cannot implement these policies takes away the companys freedom to run their business as they see fit.

      If you think you can "force" (by law or by gun) freedom then you don't understand what freedom is.

      Hey look, a completely sensible and factual post that understands the simple concept of freedom, surely it will get modded up.

      Oops, forgot I was on Slashdot.

    97. Re: In otherwards by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You can always burn the plantain down like many disgruntled did.

    98. Re:In otherwards by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Please don't confuse libertarians with tea-partiers. The Tea Party is what happens when you take libertarianism and substitute the working class oriented bits of our guaranteed liberties with the Koch brothers' feces.

    99. Re:In otherwards by LifesABeach · · Score: 3, Insightful

      I have found that most Libertarians logic fails when laws are applied without conditions, and amendments.

    100. Re:In otherwards by penglust · · Score: 2

      Like I said, the government is bought and sold. The extremeness of the guilt is great on both sides but it does seem like the republicans are worse than the democrats. God I would like to see a president like Johnson again who had no problem ripping a new one. Obama is wimp on training wheels.

      And, oh yes, again another anonymous poster. You are either a shill or an idiot.

    101. Re: In otherwards by iamhassi · · Score: 1

      Exactly. And why has this been labeled libertarian? And is wandering around the office all day freedom or abuse? Really this badge seems to allow for lazier bosses since they don't even need to be there to know what everyone is doing. Who's watching the watchers?

      --
      my karma will be here long after I'm gone
    102. Re:In otherwards by penglust · · Score: 1

      If you mean the actual people claiming to part of libertarian party then I would agree they have little power. Its the ones squeezing into the republican party using the rabidness of the tea idiots and religious diatribe to back them up that are dangerous. They just seem to rub a little more salt in wound and get the dogs to snap up a little more insanity.

    103. Re:In otherwards by Quila · · Score: 1

      Libertarians aren't about freedom (positive liberty), they are about (negative) liberty.

      I've seen this terminology thrown around before. It's a nice way to try to control the debate by using loaded terms. You forget that your so-called "positive" freedoms always require an increasing amount of authoritarianism in the government and thus a decrease in real liberty.

    104. Re:In otherwards by MrBigInThePants · · Score: 1

      lol. Like you are the one that gets to choose aside from quitting your job.

      The sad truth is that there will be a whole bunch of managers out there that will think this is a fantastic idea. After all "if you have nothing to hide..." etc

      Whether they think they could get away with using it without losing most of their workforce....

    105. Re:In otherwards by SteveFoerster · · Score: 0

      Thank you for this. If people disagree with what libertarians actually believe then that's fair enough. But there's enough straight up lying about what libertarians believe around here that it's awfully tiresome.

      --
      Space game using normal deck of cards: http://BattleCards.org
    106. Re:In otherwards by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Then we'd have three sets of idiots to argue over, or four if you count the Tea Party (actually make that five because the Tea Party probably counts twice).

    107. Re:In otherwards by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Those people are largely full of shit.

      They probably need Metamucil

    108. Re:In otherwards by Samantha+Wright · · Score: 1

      It is a time-honoured tradition amongst writers to put together thinly-veiled pseudo-anecdotal essays. Just try to think of it as slightly less boring than just reading the bare essay itself.

      --
      Bio questions? Ask me to start a Q&A journal. Computer analogies available for most topics!
    109. Re:In otherwards by sqrt(2) · · Score: 1

      The point was for a small amount of taxation to alleviate a small amount of the poverty, such as the worst cases affecting the most disadvantaged children. That wasn't clear in my original post.

      --
      If you build it, nerds will come. Soylentnews.org
    110. Re:In otherwards by Belial6 · · Score: 1

      Having your liability limited is a pretty damn special privilege.

    111. Re:In otherwards by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The first is presumption of guilt. You are guilty until proven otherwise (by a drug test). Plain and simple, this is an un-American concept, and it should be taken out and shot dead with a cannon. It is simply not a concept accepted by those who truly believe in justice.

      What happens to you if you refuse the test? Do you get shipped off to prison? Then stop this 'guilty until proven innocent' crap.

      The second problem is that drug tests are unreliable.

      [citation needed]

    112. Re:In otherwards by TsuruchiBrian · · Score: 1

      Libertarians also don't believe in the freedom for murderers to murder people, or the freedom for thieves to steal from people. The libertarian philosophy does not advocate some sort of nonsensical universal freedom to do everything. It advocates in certain concepts like free markets, autonomy, and free association.

      If you are going to attack the libertarian ideology, at least know what you are talking about.

    113. Re:In otherwards by bugs2squash · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Since when did anyone have property rights that trumped being powerful enough to seize the property ? You may think you own your land, who sold it to you ? who sold it to them ? You don't have to go back too far before the equitable trade stops.

      --
      Nullius in verba
    114. Re:In otherwards by danbert8 · · Score: 1

      Except the state can forbid you from leaving (using force) and/or charge a hefty fine for doing so. The whole libertarian viewpoint is about voluntary transactions. The whole point of the state is to use force to perform transactions. A company should be free to enact these policies and workers should be free to quit and consumers should be free to boycott. If you don't like the way a company treats employees, then don't work there and don't buy their stuff. The problem solves itself pretty quickly.

      The problem with people who hate libertarians is they assume everyone is as lazy as they are. Gee, to solve this problem I might have to change my lifestyle... Why can't the government just force the change and then I can just sit here and bitch on Slashdot.

      --
      Yes it's an anecdote! Were you expecting original research in a Slashdot comment?
    115. Re:In otherwards by stdarg · · Score: 1

      I'm not sure it makes sense to exclude productivity gains from technology. We can see from history that free men are more likely to make advances in technology than slaves, so why shouldn't they be credited with the corresponding productivity boost? Some technologies can then be appropriated by slave holders to increase their productivity, but it seems possible that there's a point where that breaks down. A slave can be forced to do manual labor, so any technological item that requires simple manual labor can be used in a slave workforce. But once the technological item requires creativity and complex thought, it's possible that the mental anguish of slavery would preclude the slave from being successful with that technology. There's also the possibility that when you educate your slaves to the level required to use the new technology, they would turn their wits to ending slavery.

    116. Re:In otherwards by internerdj · · Score: 1

      Look at the Tennesee Valley Authority. It isn't a model that would work with every government service and the poverty of the region isn't a model of all poverty. However, it is a successful government project that took taxpayer seed money, is operating off of payment for services to taxpayers while still being part of the big bad federal bureaucracy, and lifted a huge group out of rampant poverty.

    117. Re:In otherwards by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The problem with people who hate libertarians is they assume everyone is as lazy as they are.

      There are some holes in the above criticisms of libertarians, however resorting to an ad hominem attack certainly doesn't strengthen your point, either.

    118. Re:In otherwards by next_ghost · · Score: 1

      Just try to think of it as slightly less boring than just reading the bare essay itself.

      It wouldn't be so boring if there was at least a hint of some deeper thought behind all that text. Seriously, can you think of just one important thought in the whole novel that I didn't cover in my two-paragraph summary above?

    119. Re:In otherwards by Belial6 · · Score: 1

      I can agree with most of that, but, since the vast majority of people fall into the manual labor category (or close to it), I think it is absolutly fair to exclude the advances of technology.

    120. Re:In otherwards by TsuruchiBrian · · Score: 1, Insightful

      I'll bet I can find some "progressives" who would prefer rampant poverty for everyone over even the slightest bit of wealth inequality (e.g. they would prefer a world were everyone was as poor as the poorest person in the world currently to the one we have now).

      I don't see what this would prove. And I don't see what you are trying to prove either. That some libertarians are ideologues? There are ideologues for every ideology.

      There are left libertarians like Noam Chomsky. There are people who are heroes of the intellectual libertarianism like Milton Friedman who actually proposed the negative income tax as a way to eliminate poverty without removing the incentive to be self sufficient.

      It's easy to pick the dumbest people and hold them up as the paradigms of an ideology you disagree with, but it is not intellectually honest.

      I'll be the first person to say that there are a lot of selfish and dumb people who claim to be libertarians. But there are a lot of selfish and dumb people in general. I'm fine with calling those people out on their selfishness and stupidity, but I object to equating this juvenile point of view with libertarianism, just as you would probably object if I equated the mentality of person who only wants a free cell phone from Obama with the best liberalism has to offer.

    121. Re:In otherwards by TsuruchiBrian · · Score: 1

      Real libertarians (i.e. not republicans in disguise) or in favor of the right to bargain collectively. They just tend to be opposed to laws being passed that give both unions and/or employers and unfair advantage.

    122. Re:In otherwards by TsuruchiBrian · · Score: 1

      technological advancements didn't make just it "look like" workers were more productive. IT actually made them more productive. We have more stuff now, because workers produced more stuff.

    123. Re:In otherwards by DMUTPeregrine · · Score: 2

      You seem to think that workers are free to change jobs, as though each employer has an infinite supply.
      Jobs are limited. The one business would have a massive advantage in hiring, but wouldn't need to (or be able to) hire everyone else. Jobs aren't like commodity goods, where you can simply change to a different supplier if you're not satisfied with the current one. Also, there's significant risk and expense in switching jobs.

      --
      Not a sentence!
    124. Re:In otherwards by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I guess I have not got a clue how libertarianism gets into this line of discussion.

    125. Re: In otherwards by stdarg · · Score: 1

      I think there are at least 2 kinds of freedom. There's personal freedom, which is what you can do without regard for anybody or anything else. You can move around and think stuff, which pretty much encompasses everything that you can attempt in this life. Moving around includes stuff like moving your hand in a way that fashions a gun, points it at someone, and pulls the trigger. You have that freedom, because you can will it to happen. Then there's social freedom which is what you can do with the support of others, typically embodied as the social contract. A society agrees that people will have certain rights and responsibilities and the individuals of that society agree to help enforce those rights and responsibilities. If someone uses their personal freedom to kill you, then society will enforce the social contract on your killer and imprison/kill him.

      You obviously cannot strip your personal freedom as I've defined it. It's just another name for your free will.

      The social freedom, though, is defined by society. So you could have a society that allows contracts that strip you of your social freedoms, if people agree that it's a good thing. But if you were referring to this idea of a social freedom in your post, then you can't just say it exists. In fact it doesn't exist as far as I know. What society today lets you write contracts that strip your freedom irrevocably, and that other people in the society will step in to enforce based on the existence of that contract?

      It occurs to me now that by "strip" you might be talking about voluntarily suppressing some freedom. Those are more legit, but of course they can be terminated at any time and your freedoms restored.

    126. Re:In otherwards by TsuruchiBrian · · Score: 1

      Yes society has in the past needed a certain number of people in low skill jobs, and that number has continued to rapidly approach zero as technology improves. Soon we will reach the point where the cost of robots will be lower than any 3rd world worker could possibly survive on, and the only jobs that will require humans are high skill jobs that robots can't do.

      The danger is not that humans will be stuck in low paying jobs. There won't be any more low paying jobs for humans to get.

    127. Re:In otherwards by TsuruchiBrian · · Score: 1

      The argument is not "not a single company will attempt this strategy". It is that these companies will be at a competitive disadvantage.

      If a giraffe has a slight competitive advantage because it has a longer neck, it doesn't mean that all the giraffes with short necks instantly die off. It just means that over time, giraffes will gradually have longer and longer necks through the pressure of natural selection.

    128. Re:In otherwards by TsuruchiBrian · · Score: 1

      This phenomenon exists. That doesn't mean it is the only thing that can happen.

    129. Re:In otherwards by Belial6 · · Score: 1

      The question was whether being happy makes them more productive than those where are not happy. This is why using technological advances is cheating.

    130. Re:In otherwards by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Try being a conservative and coming the Slashdot to see the comments that are said about people like me. It never ceases to amaze me at the all the down right foolish things that said about Christian (yes that evil word) conservatives. It doesn't matter how intelligent I am, what degrees I have, or what I do for a living. As soon as Christian conservative is mentioned, I'm suddenly the dumbest person in the room. That is why I rarely if ever bother to make comments on this site. This is the first time I've said something in 2 years.

      You should see how people respond when I say that I'm Christian conservative and believe in evolution because it makes sense in the overall scheme of things.

    131. Re:In otherwards by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It's difficult to make a comparison, since the productivity per dollar of wages gives SIGFPE.

    132. Re:In otherwards by Darinbob · · Score: 1

      But workers should be applauding the new found freedoms that they bosses have acquired!

    133. Re:In otherwards by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Happy workers are productive workers.

      I have a hard time believing someone can be so ignorant of history. Do you think slaves were happy? What about feudal serfs? Or pre-unionized steel workers? Or the children working in textile factories?

      Probably not. Slaves in particular were notorious for trying to find ways to deliberately undermine productivity without getting caught and punished. Also "nobody with any talent is willing to work for you" looks an awful lot like pressuring managers to care about worker happiness though, so while you may conclude that you don't like the way "the market" handles these things, your tantrum doesn't actually stand as an argument against the originator's claim.

    134. Re:In otherwards by TsuruchiBrian · · Score: 1

      Libertarians hate the state

      1. Real libertarians don't "hate" the state. A person who hates the state would probably be better described as an anarchist.

      ut their ideal society is one where a corporation can essentially have all of the power of the state, but without any representation.

      2. A real libertarian does not want corporations to have the power of a state.

      They will say, you are free to leave a corporation and do business with another. How is that different than, if you don't like the laws of a state, go to another state?

      Well one big difference is that leaving a corporation doesn't force you to leave your home, family and friends, but leaving a country does.

      This isn't hypothetical. Company towns in the past were owned by a corporation which provided essentially all government functions. Quite the libertarian paradise.

      A society with only one employer is not a libertarian paradise.

      I don;t think you really understand libertarianism. You seem to thinking of a caricature of libertarianism.

      In the same way that it is a caricature to say that all liberals want to government to control everything and have everyone be dependent on welfare.

    135. Re:In otherwards by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      That all sounds reasonable until you take a freshman econ course and learn about externalities, the free rider problem, and tragedy of the commons.

      Or alternatively, when you spend a long road trip in a car with someone who loves their beans, or share an apartment with people that have lower standards of cleanliness than you.

      Then you'll understand why the government regulates things, why individual property rights are not the highest law of the land, and why Libertarians tend to be perceived as a mixed bag of people with lofty but impractical ideals and morons who spout nonsense.

    136. Re:In otherwards by buswolley · · Score: 2

      Well isn't that the very issue I am talking about? Libertarians pick and choose which liberties they support and do not support. That they often oppose worker liberty in subordination to owner liberty is telling.

      --

      A Good Troll is better than a Bad Human.

    137. Re:In otherwards by TsuruchiBrian · · Score: 1

      I think a person whose family has been taken hostage can probably be made into just about the most productive worker imaginable, and these working conditions are basically as bad as it gets.

      Does this single example completely disprove the concept that "happy workers are more productive"?

      I think it does if you view this question very narrowly.

      If you allow for some other factors like "we live in a society where we are free to change jobs", I don't think it's a stretch to say that treating your employees worse than every other employer will lead to you losing some/all your workers.

      Maybe every company would race to the bottom, but we haven;t really seen that happen. Many corporations pay above minimum wage. Clearly their strategy is not to race to the bottom.

    138. Re:In otherwards by TapeCutter · · Score: 1

      Agree with your post however it was not all one sided, Henry Ford voluntarily implemented a 40hr week.

      --
      And did you exchange a walk on part in the war for a lead role in a cage? - Pink Floyd.
    139. Re:In otherwards by dbIII · · Score: 1

      There's no point pretending libertarians are all the same. They are from all over the political spectrum and the only thing they have in common is standing under a banner that says "I've got mine and you're not taking it away from me".

    140. Re:In otherwards by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Libertarians only care about freedom on public property. Once you're on their land it's their way or the highway.

      The concept of "public property" doesn't male any sense in a Libertarian society.

    141. Re:In otherwards by radtea · · Score: 1

      What this means in practice is that if your oppressor isn't called "government", you're on your own.

      Corporations, unions and political parties all exist as legal entities solely due to the direct legislative interference by the Nanny State into the operations of free markets, so any intellectually consistent libertarian would be *precisely* as vigorous in their opposition to oppression by these legally-privileged forms of collective organization as they are in their opposition to oppression by the state directly.

      That no libertarian anywhere is actually opposed to oppression by legally-privileged corporations tells you they are either a) ignorant or b) dishonest. I was an ignorant libertarian for many years, so I know whereof I speak.

      To be absolutely clear on this: corporations are legally privileged by very specific legislative intervention into markets. These legal privileges are generally encoded in something called the "Companies Act" or the like, and derive from the original Companies Act reforms that occurred in Britain in the mid-1800's that gave birth to the modern corporation to which we owe so much in terms of wealth.

      Adam Smith opposed corporations because he opposed Nanny State interference in free markets, but he didn't appreciate the huge benefits the corporate form of organization could yield. Unfortunately, like fire and governments, corporations are powerful servants and dangerous masters, and we have reached a point where the corporate wild-fire is well and truly out of control, in part thanks to "libertarians" who either don't understand markets or choose to falsely claim that corporations are not legally privileged forms of collective organization.

      --
      Blasphemy is a human right. Blasphemophobia kills.
    142. Re:In otherwards by TsuruchiBrian · · Score: 1

      Well isn't that the very issue I am talking about? Libertarians pick and choose which liberties they support and do not support.

      Everyone should pick and choose which liberties they support and do not support.

      That they often oppose worker liberty in subordination to owner liberty is telling.

      What does it tell? That libertarians don't blindly support workers regardless of the situation?

      Libertarians also often oppose corporate power as well.

      In fact actual libertarian ideology doesn't favor liberty of one group over another in terms of workers or owners. It talks about freedom in terms of autonomy and free association and non-coercion. If the owners of a company are engaging in coercion or the denial of autonomy, then libertarians (the real ones) will oppose that. If workers do the same, then libertarians will oppose them in the same way.

      I can't imagine that you would *always* be on the side of "the workers" regardless of the circumstances.

    143. Re:In otherwards by dbIII · · Score: 1

      Some believe it, it's just pretending that all do that is the "straight up lying".
      Personally I think it's a pointless label since people from all over the political spectrum use it on themselves. There's even an outright Royalist (the sort Washington would have shot) who calls himself a libertarian that posts here, there's the outright anarchists, there's Koch's useful idiots, and I probably only hit a few of the extremes there let alone getting close to the middle.

    144. Re:In otherwards by radtea · · Score: 1

      When I saw the words "Perfect Boss" I imagined something totally opposite to the rest of the description (which describes the boss from hell...)

      Specifically, the perfect boss is concerned with output measures while this evil little widget is entirely concerned with input measures.

      Maybe that person who is wandering around talking to people is the glue that holds the team together, ensuring that everyone is in the loop and communicating with each other. Maybe that person who is quiet at meetings is listening and thinking carefully and realizes they have nothing to add to discussions while blowhards talk loudly. Or maybe they simply shouldn't be there, but have been put on the required list for political reason, or...

      Anyone who thinks they are safe making critical inferences from input measures is both ignorant and arrogant to the point of dangerousness.

      --
      Blasphemy is a human right. Blasphemophobia kills.
    145. Re:In otherwards by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      In a modern society governments are created by the people (where have I heard that before) to ensure the common good.

      You know what the government was doing when Unions were a new idea and child-labor was an ongoing argument? Busting heads and enforcing corporate rights. You know what the primary effect of government regulations on Unions are? Labor can't legally strike at the times when it would be most beneficial for them to do so. Do you know what would not even exist if not for legal fictions created by the government you love so much? Corporations.

      I'm not really into the whole right-left thing, but from here it seems obvious that the best thing that people on the left or right could ask for right now is a government that butts out and allows people to come up with their own solutions.

    146. Re:In otherwards by Maxo-Texas · · Score: 1

      Don't overlook automation as well. Robots are only part of the issue.

      I think we approach a point when there are only real jobs for a fraction of human beings. We'll need a basic income or we'll have civil unrest.

      --
      She was like chocolate when she drank... semi-sweet at first and then increasingly bitter.
    147. Re: In otherwards by Rakarra · · Score: 1

      I'm pretty sure BSD is dying.

    148. Re:In otherwards by dbIII · · Score: 1

      Faking stuff to start a war? Even Nixon was less dishonest.

    149. Re:In otherwards by buswolley · · Score: 1

      Thats better. Of course, the reality is different. Labor have few liberties while at work, and business owners many liberties. So while I do not unilaterally support labor over business owners, the tilt is currently in the wrong direction.

      --

      A Good Troll is better than a Bad Human.

    150. Re:In otherwards by lgw · · Score: 1

      Perhaps, but it's not one specific to corporations. We get significant social advantage from being able to start a business without necessarily losing all your personal assets if that business should fail (though often it ends up that way, as banks will often refuse loans to LLCs precisely because of that limit).

      I'm not sure why you think that means it puts "corporations" in some special place to abuse employees - non-corporate owners abuse employees just as badly.

      --
      Socialism: a lie told by totalitarians and believed by fools.
    151. Re:In otherwards by Darinbob · · Score: 1

      Actually some corporations did start offering workers benefits, purely for the profit motive rather than generosity.

      Ie, NCR introduced social welfare programs for workers in the late 1800s, such as hot lunches for all women workers, on-site healthcare, and so on. Before unionization existed. At a time when some companies had sweat shops some new NCR factories were designed to let in lots of light and have good ventilation. Although accused of coddling its workers, NCR's CEO Patterson claimed it was good for business. He certainly was otherwise a model of big business capitalist. I think in reality it was most probably a mixture of both profit and generosity, certainly it's easier to do the right thing when it helps the bottom line, easier to justify the changes to the bean counters.

      (I have never worked for NCR, it stuck in my head as an notable exception to the typical companies of the Victorian era)

      One thing different maybe between now and then, is that when companies were smaller the CEOs and presidents actually saw their workers, but today so many workers are at a distance from the CEOs and board of directors, or companies so large that it's too easy for problems to remain invisible.

    152. Re:In otherwards by Jane+Q.+Public · · Score: 1

      "Marijuana stays detectable for an extended period, way past the time it affects someone. You are already seeing inklings of this issue in states where it has been legalized and they want to keep people from driving while in an altered state."

      And one problem THERE, is that it's not possible with current technology to determine this.

      Another problem with that, is that it's probably not worthwhile anyway. The most comprehensive study I am aware of in regard to driving impairment under the influence of THC was done a long time ago by the Canadian government. "A Report By The Commission Of Inquiry Into The Non-Medical Use Of Drugs: Cannibis"

      That was a large, carefully performed, double-blind study. And their conclusion was that it takes a MASSIVE amount of THC to impair driving anywhere near the way alcohol does; it is very difficult for somebody to even get that stoned.

      Trying to determine whether someone is driving while "impaired" by THC is a pointless exercise. They should not even try. If they do, you can bet a lot of innocent people will go to jail or lose their licenses, because there simply is no way to really tell.

    153. Re:In otherwards by Jane+Q.+Public · · Score: 1

      "What happens to you if you refuse the test? Do you get shipped off to prison? Then stop this 'guilty until proven innocent' crap."

      "Guilty" enough to not get the job is still "guilty". So get off your high horse.

      "The second problem is that drug tests are unreliable."

      [citation needed]

      [Google needed]

      Seriously. If you can't go to Wikipedia and look up Base Rate Fallacy (as I suggested above), then go to Google and see how that affects the consequences of drug testing, maybe you shouldn't be opening your mouth.

    154. Re:In otherwards by Belial6 · · Score: 1

      I happen to think that a happy worker is more likely to be more productive, but the OP I responded to claimed that slaves, serfs and early steel workers were good examples that being unhappy made people unproductive. I have yet to see any evidence that slaves, serfs and early steel workers were particularly unproductive compared to happy workers at the same level of technology.

    155. Re:In otherwards by Belial6 · · Score: 1

      What do you mean that it is not one specific to corporations?

    156. Re:In otherwards by mnooning · · Score: 1
      >until the the corrupt domineering religious right

      Huh? Looking at the last 300 years of US history our freedoms have diminished while the population has become less and less religious. Your anti-religious zeal has you distorting history.

    157. Re:In otherwards by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      And also, it extends the general moves by corporations to gather data on their employees and distances managers from their staff. I read this a pervasive, low-level corporate mistrust of their own management.

      It's of a piece with mandatory drug testing of employees. It sets up a dynamic of "beat the test".

      In the immediate example, what's to stop employees from arranging a mandatory, daily (or weekly, or whatever) tour of the offices? BS with friends, suck up to superiors, check up on direct reports. The idea is simply to boost the numbers, because the one thing you know is that these badges are going to generate numbers. And having gathered them, a report will be generated. And then the report has to look good every month.

    158. Re: In otherwards by geoskd · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Businesses who adopt "antiworker policies" will lose them to companies with better policies.

      That is simply not true. That would only be an accurate model of the real world if there was 0% unemployment. Here in the real world, your options are 1) Continue working for the abusive company that insist on 60+ hour work weeks from its "salaried" employees. 2) unemployment.

      I work for one of those hideously abusive companies. They didn't used ot be this way, but starting about 4 years ago (start of the great recession), they discovered that their employees would put up with all kinds of crap, and boy do they dish it out. My co-workers and I were effectively ordered to work 7 days straight, 12 hours per day for the last 2 months. The state I live in has weak labor laws, and the company believes it can do as it pleases. My fellow co-workers and I have been looking for other jobs for a few years now, but the market sucks. (BTW, all of us have at least a bachelors degree, mine is in engineering). There are thousands of jobs around here that pay minimum wage, but almost nothing paying any more than that. In the mean time, I have had my benefits effectively eliminated, all 401k matching eliminated, all pension contributions halted. I have effectively taken a 20% pay cut over the last 4 years. It wont take too much more before McDonalds will be competitive... In spite of all that, there are people lined up down the street for this job because minimum wage really is the only other thing available, and 10% unemployment guarantees that the employers can do any damn thing they want.

      Were it not for those pesky labor laws, I would have been unable to stop the mandatory unpaid overtime. I essentially refused to stay, and started going home after 10 hours, and refused to even show up on the 6th or 7th days. I have made it plain that there are limits, and almost dared them to make an issue out of it so that we can take the whole thing to court. The labor market is no longer a meeting of equals at the negotiating table. The corporations have all the power, and the only thing standing between the peoples of the world and slavery is the rule of law and regulation.

      --
      I wish I had a good sig, but all the good ones are copyrighted
    159. Re:In otherwards by MrKaos · · Score: 1

      It just takes micromanagement to an entirely new level. No thanks to these.

      I predict they will have an incredibly high failure rate.

      --
      My ism, it's full of beliefs.
    160. Re:In otherwards by mjwx · · Score: 1

      This isn't hypothetical. Company towns in the past were owned by a corporation which provided essentially all government functions. Quite the libertarian paradise.

      Company towns didn't just provide all the government functions, they provided all the commercial functions too. You worked for the company, you bought everything you had from the company, you paid tax to the company, the entire system was designed to funnel as much money back into the company as it could. Prices were easily adjusted to ensure that living expenses exceded wages, but that's OK because the company owned bank was there to give everyone a loan.

      It was a libertarian wet dream.

      --
      Calling someone a "hater" only means you can not rationally rebut their argument.
    161. Re:In otherwards by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Meh. A piece of rock has "real devotion" to being immobile, too.

      It takes no effort, nor special endowments.

    162. Re:In otherwards by TsuruchiBrian · · Score: 1

      "Robots" was my tongue and cheek term for all forms of automation robotic or otherwise.

      I don't think a standard "income" is necessary per se, as long as goods and services become essential free (which I believe is one possible scenario for the future). I think it is quite possible the the means of production become available to all people, and raw materials become a resource that is rationed by some kind of democratic system.

      Civil unrest, robot armies, opression, etc, is another possible outcome

    163. Re:In otherwards by TsuruchiBrian · · Score: 1

      I would not disagree that the advantage is currently in the hands of large corporations. While I can;t speak for all self described libertarians, I would say that most feel that corporations have an undeserved level of power that is harmful to society. However I would also say that most would favor removing this power rather than passing more laws to give workers a big enough legal advantage to compete.

      The single biggest thing I think that can be done to further to goal of limiting the power of corporations, is to stop treating corporations as people, and treat all corporate profits as the profit of individuals, and revamping the tax code to be more fair and simple.

      I also think things like the negative income tax would be a great way to simply the tax code/welfare system and ensure a minimum income level to all people

    164. Re:In otherwards by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I'm not sure what you are getting at. Best i can tell, you are confusing libertarianism with anarchist. Libertarians still believe that there should be government, and that government is necessary to protect our rights (including property rights, as you so mention) from the powerful who wish to steal it' or to help you repossess that property after it is stolen - or obtain other appropriate remunerations. The court system handles this very well.

    165. Re:In otherwards by Black+LED · · Score: 1

      I think it's a good idea for weeding out slackers. For instance, any boss who needs to employ a system like this is obviously not doing, or incapable of doing, their job and should be fired.

    166. Re:In otherwards by lgw · · Score: 1

      Anyone can create an LLC, no incorporation needed. LLCs are incredibly common in real estate, but uncommon elsewhere, because banks don't generally like to lend to them compared to normal partnerships.

      For a for-profit company, the significant added tax burden of a corporation only makes sense when a partnership management structure stops working, that is, when you're raising capital from strangers who expect some control of the company in return (you can sell limited partnerships to an LLC just like stock shares if there's a market for them without the control that common stock gets, which sometimes happens).

      --
      Socialism: a lie told by totalitarians and believed by fools.
    167. Re:In otherwards by TsuruchiBrian · · Score: 1

      I don't think slavery can really be compared to voluntary employment. It is such a drastically different mechanism that I don't think many (if any) of the same principles apply.

      I would say that I don't think there is clear correlation between worker happiness and worker productivity. By this I mean, I don;t think the graph of happiness and productivity is likely to resemble a straight line. I suspect it might look something more like a parabola or a Gaussian distribution.

      Maybe the happiest worker is one that does no work at all but remains employed through a computer glitch or manager incompetence

    168. Re: In otherwards by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      That's what unions ought to be for, not for lining pockets, buying politicians, and inflating egos.

    169. Re:In otherwards by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You do have the positive liberty to not wear a collar. It's called walking out. Clearly, you don't have the simple understanding of the difference between force and volition.

      Don't like it? Find something else to do, you whiner.

    170. Re:In otherwards by RespekMyAthorati · · Score: 1

      A business that did this would be at a disadvantage because of the dissatisfied employees (especially competent ones) who would go elsewhere

      That's assuming there is somewhere else to go. And, given that all these corporations are run by the same gang of B-School grads, is never going to happen.

    171. Re:In otherwards by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Company towns created by government decree where the company *becomes* the government; it's not a just a private business anymore, is it?

      Not even close to libertarianism. It's actually your Liberal wet dream of excessive taxation and government monopolies.

      Nice try, straw man. And I'm not even a libertarian.. I just hate liars and spin doctors.

    172. Re:In otherwards by rossz · · Score: 1

      Noam Chomsky is not a libertarian. He's an extreme left moron.

      --
      -- Will program for bandwidth
    173. Re:In otherwards by TsuruchiBrian · · Score: 1

      From wikipedia: "Ideologically, he aligns himself with anarcho-syndicalism and libertarian socialism." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/N...

    174. Re:In otherwards by EuclideanSilence · · Score: 1

      Do you think slaves were happy?

      Slaves aren't free to change jobs, so they aren't a counter example.

      What about feudal serfs?

      Feudal serfs aren't free to own land, so they aren't a counter example.

      Or pre-unionized steel workers?

      Steel was a monopolized industry (as are many natural resources), so steel workers aren't free to start their own steel industry, so they aren't a counter example.

      Or the children working in textile factories?

      Most of the countries you speak of, to start a factory you have to be friends with the local authorities, so there isn't freedom of competition there either. And an aside, we happen to have the highest (or close to it) teenage unemployment rate in the history of the world.

      There are good counter examples to some common libertarian arguments, especially such as the scarcity of natural resources becoming more and more significant. However, the general libertarian argument that greater prosperity comes from greater freedom is still so historically well observed that counter-examples like the above fall apart after even the smallest amount of consideration.

      With regard to this specific thread, placing more and more regulatory burdens on employers only serves to reduce the number of employers, which reduces the choices of the employees. Yes, it is possibly that there may be other artificial restrictions, such as the government-born monopolies that were mentioned above, on employers that make individual regulatory burdens less significant. But the better policy is to remove both obstructions, not to impose more.

    175. Re:In otherwards by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You might add that in addition, society, or rather the economy, require a certain number of people to be unemployed. Not just structural unemployment, actual can't find a job unemployed. If they aren't then inflation will become a big problem. Yet despite the great favour they are doing them, well-off right-wingers are always bitching about the unemployed.

    176. Re:In otherwards by Dread_ed · · Score: 1

      Exactly right. There are two political parties in the US, but their not the republicans and democrats. They are those who are elected to office and those that elect them. Forgetting this is the root of just about every political woe we face in the US.

      --
      When the only tool you have is a claw hammer every problem starts to look like the back of someone's skull.
    177. Re: In otherwards by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Why do people who don't know jack shit about libertarians feel the need to constantly tell people what libertarians think? It would be like me telling everyone (very loudly) about the social habits of Ubangi tribesmen. Just stop.

    178. Re: In otherwards by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Why don't you tell the name and location of this company so that your information can be verified and the company challenged. Slavery was bannished a long time ago. Doesn't matter if it's just 20% slavery and 80% 'voluntary and paid work'.

    179. Re: In otherwards by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You are considered stupid because of your anti-science, anti-women, anti-gay, pro slavery, anti-government, selfish beliefs. Christians state that they accept everyone, but they tend to be the most closed-minded people I have ever met. When I hear someone talk about family values, I KNOW they have some really scary skeletons in their closet.

    180. Re:In otherwards by Rich0 · · Score: 1

      technological advancements didn't make just it "look like" workers were more productive. IT actually made them more productive. We have more stuff now, because workers produced more stuff.

      That's like saying that happy people live longer, because the happy person that I gave an antibiotic lived longer than the sad person I left to fend with the plague on their own.

      If you want to measure the effects of happiness on productivity then you need to control all the other variables.

    181. Re:In otherwards by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      > I have found that most Libertarians logic fails

      Fixed that for you.

    182. Re:In otherwards by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Let us know how much of a "fairness" problem it is when your mom starts raping you and chopping off body parts if you try to escape, instead of feeding your Cheetohs and Word of Warcraft habit in your man-cave in her basement. People who've never endured "if I don't work, I don't eat" have a romanticized idea about what wage slavery is like, much less genuine slavery where wages never even arrive in your hands and if the winter is tough, they don't feed you.

    183. Re:In otherwards by TsuruchiBrian · · Score: 1

      That's like saying that happy people live longer, because the happy person that I gave an antibiotic lived longer than the sad person I left to fend with the plague on their own.

      I am not aware of anything that I said that could be related to this example. Maybe you inferred some position that I never actually took.

      If you want to measure the effects of happiness on productivity then you need to control all the other variables.

      And the easiest way to do that would be to compare productivity and happiness of workers that are in close temporal and geographical proximity.

      Comparing productivity and happiness of workers today with slaves in the 1800s or feudal serfs in the middle ages, or cavemen seems pretty pointless

    184. Re:In otherwards by rtb61 · · Score: 1

      Nope Libertarians are 100% about economic freedom and 0% about personal freedom. Basically their core is about the right to turn people into property. The teenagers economic philosophy, down right disturbing to say the least.

      --
      Chaos - everything, everywhere, everywhen
    185. Re: In otherwards by Locando · · Score: 0

      How convenient to call him a moron and leave it at that! Can I do that for people I disagree with, too?

    186. Re:In otherwards by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "Guilty" enough to not get the job is still "guilty". So get off your high horse.

      "Guilty until proven innocent' is a direct contradiction to the legal principle that one is considered innocent until proven guilty. Although the Constitution of the United States does not cite it explicitly, presumption of innocence is widely held to follow from the 5th, 6th, and 14th amendments. One is innocent until the facts are looked at, and the truth discovered. Kinda like a drug test- they look at the facts and discover the truth. Only, since there is no legal right to a job, there is no violation of any legal principle involved when a company refuses to hire you until/unless they get a clean drug test from you.

      And I won't even point out that what a Government can legally do and what a private company can legally do are completely different things.

      Seriously. If you can't go to Wikipedia and look up Base Rate Fallacy ...

      "Base rate fallacy, also called base rate neglect or base rate bias, is an error in thinking. If presented with related base rate information (i.e. generic, general information) and specific information (information only pertaining to a certain case), the mind tends to ignore the former and focus on the latter. This is what the base rate fallacy refers to."

      An" error in thinking". The tests themselves are not "unreliable". The way people think about the tests IS.

    187. Re:In otherwards by barakn · · Score: 1

      Which is why the South capitulated immediately and there was no Civil War. Those slaves weren't productive at all and weren't a crucial component of the southern economy.

      --
      "I'm so moist I'm sticking to the leather." -Kermit the Frog on The Late Late Show
    188. Re: In otherwards by bongey · · Score: 1

      Nope BSD is simultaneously alive and dead.

    189. Re:In otherwards by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Maybe employment should be understood as selling your manpower, which is afaik the standard.
      I dont really see the connection to surveillance on the job, because If the results dont match the expectations because of social factors,
      whats the point in quantifying social factors? A useful analysis takes almost as much manpower as the work itself.
      Then there is the usual bias of the whole group, which means the data gives you no information if the whole group does it.
      It would be no more than applied social science, which the release of this report reminds me of.

    190. Re:In otherwards by mhajicek · · Score: 1

      Citation needed.

    191. Re:In otherwards by rtb61 · · Score: 1

      Take you pick of the whole of the internet Libertarian waffle is everywhere ie citation "see internet" and if your still having trouble https://www.google.com/search?.... Now if I was a Libertarian I would be entitled to charge you for that service as nothing would be for free in Libertarian world and you requested the fee, initiated the contact and did not stipulate any limits on cost, as such it would be my economic free right to charge you what ever I deemed applicable. You have to be careful what you ask for in a Libertarian world and how you ask for it.

      --
      Chaos - everything, everywhere, everywhen
    192. Re:In otherwards by mhajicek · · Score: 1

      Please take your own advise and read up on the subject: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/L...

    193. Re: In otherwards by taiwanjohn · · Score: 1

      Check out Democracy At Work by Richard Wolff, or watch his lecture on the same topic.

      In a nutshell: He advocates worker-owned and -controlled enterprises as a way to achieve the same goals without relying on gov't regulations or labor unions. Such a transition would take time of course, but it's a way to realize those "libertarian" ideals as well.

      --
      XML is like violence. If it doesn't solve your problem, you're not using enough of it. --AC
    194. Re:In otherwards by mhotchin · · Score: 1

      Predicted 20 years ago!
      http://dilbert.com/strips/comi...

    195. Re:In otherwards by Belial6 · · Score: 1

      Anyone can create a Corporation as well. So, there are two legal structures that are granted by the state to give special privileges. That doesn't change the fact that the state is issuing special privileges.

    196. Re:In otherwards by Belial6 · · Score: 1

      Sure, I can agree with that.

    197. Re:In otherwards by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If a giraffe has a slight competitive advantage because it has a longer neck, it doesn't mean that all the giraffes with short necks instantly die off. It just means that over time, giraffes will gradually have longer and longer necks through the pressure of natural selection.

      Humans generally prefer that things not suck for millions of years before they improve. Less than one lifetime (50 years) being ideal.

    198. Re:In otherwards by freeze128 · · Score: 1

      I like to sing that while I'm mining ore in Skyrim...

    199. Re:In otherwards by Wolfrider · · Score: 1

      --I was thinking along the same lines. But ANY company that tries to implement this technology deserves to be run out of business on a rail - preferably by their own workforce. Don't stand for it.

      --
      .
      == WolfriderV6 == I'm willing to admit that *I just might* be wrong... Are you??
    200. Re:In otherwards by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      you forgot about the freedom to assemble and organize a majority of citizens to agree to rules of conduct, which can include restrictions on people trying to impose onerous conditions as terms of employment, especially when the conditions become so widespread that no one can avoid them (like serfdom). rules of conduct can also include the requirement that everyone pitch in, based on their capacity to do so, to help out people identified as either incapable of caring for themself, or struggling to become self supporting. libertarianism is simply the primary iteration of the fractal that is human society. we can add an infinitude of iterations to the ideas embodied in pure libertarianism, and constantly modify the definitions of the various fractal dimensions as desired. the libertarians today who want to take us back to their ideal of a simple govt are really cut from the same cloth as marxists, and groups like the khmer rouge, who cant stand how messy real people are, and want to reduce us to simple billiard ball units. no room for complex emotions, complex relationships, subtleties. all washed aside out of a very personal, visceral rejection of organic human society. I would say its profoundly sociopathic, and very emblematic of the twentieth/21st centuries absolutism. try looking at biology and ecology for a better model. and remember, groups of animals vote, with birds and fishes choosing a direction once 50% plus one are going that way, and more important decisions seem to require larger percentages, such as 2/3. we can move towards a more holistic, organic society from where we are, its not impossible. what is impossible is believing we can reduce human complexity to a simple formula of "i do what i want, you do what you want, no one should care what we do."

    201. Re:In otherwards by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Hi! I was going to write this whole angry reply to the GP, but you made the point much more eloquently than I would have. Thank you.

    202. Re:In otherwards by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      im not a libertarian myself (i'm actually quite liberal), but that's NOT the viewpoint of a libertarian and you misinformed /. idiots need to stop spreading these BS lies. you wouldnt know a libertarian if he bit you on the arse, and it only makes you look stupid.

      most of the people you /. morons talk about as libertarians are really just big business conservatives who have latched onto this label because they want to think they are different or special or simply misrepresent themselves. and in the process they give libertarians a bad name. real libertarians are about rights and liberty, regardless of who is seeking to get in the way of that, and oppose anyone who would take it away. If X is bad because government does it, it's not automatically good just because it's being done by a business. It's still X...it's still bad, and a libertarian would still be opposed to it.

      in short: you're full of krap and dont know what youre talking about

    203. Re: In otherwards by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      sounds like you need a union

    204. Re:In otherwards by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      ... Libertarians are about *everyone's* freedom. That includes the freedom to make stupid rules about the place you work. ...

      ... To a libertarian, rights are sacrosanct. It doesn't matter who tramples those rights, it's considered wrong. ...

      What if the rules about the place you work at trample your rights? In this case, for example, the privacy of the workers is violated.

      Companies also tend to be in a lot stronger bargaining position than employees, who are dependent on the income from the company. Even when you can go work somewhere else, that transition can take months and you need the income. Using your rights to change workplaces may also be damaging to your career, if the other employees see you as a problematic case.

      This wouldn't be a problem if everyone was a strong-willed ideal human and able to hold to their rights, but in practice most people are not.

    205. Re:In otherwards by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I don't think you fully understood your "Friend".

      He would rather contribute to his community under his own terms, than have the government forcibly make him contribute through taxes to a top heavy bureaucracy who's stated goal is to feed the under gorged and provide free high speed access to Facebook for unemployed sex offenders.

      Why do you not understand this?

    206. Re:In otherwards by lessthan · · Score: 1

      All industry tends to monopoly. It is the lowest energy state of business. If you do not have to compete with another provider/producer, you are free to crank the profit/decency ratio all the way over to profit. So, left alone, all industry would gravitate from freedom to monopoly, ending in pseudo-feudalism and slavery.

      Dismissing examples because they lack "freedom" is essentially a no true Scotsman argument. Everyone, everywhere is perfectly "free." It is just some are free to choose pain, death, or pain followed by death.

      --
      Space Shuttle was a program that strapped humans to an explosion and tried to stab through the sky with fire and math
    207. Re:In otherwards by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Liberals aren't about freedom (positive liberty), they are about (negative) liberty. What this means in practice is that if your oppressor is called "government." you're on your own.

      Fixed that for you. GFY

    208. Re: In otherwards by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If you were mandated by the government to be there then that is an issue. Otherwise, and I hate to say this, you can exercise your freedom of choice.

    209. Re:In otherwards by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Interestingly, most liberal "logic" never even gets that far.

      Liberal logic: Claim 50 million people don't have health insurance. Insist America is a 3rd world country. Instigate a national health plan similar to Holland's. Acquire 3 million subscribers while 5 million more Americans are born/immigrate. System problems cause 6 million other people to lose existing coverage. Net loss, 8 million. Claim it's still better than what we have before. Accuse libertarians and conservatives of racism.

    210. Re: In otherwards by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The only member of your list that potentially belongs there is anti-gay. Everything else is complete rubbish. But even that "antagonism" is ostensibly directed at the behavior rather than the individual. Yes, I realize those can't be completely separated.

    211. Re:In otherwards by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I know you are, but what am I?

    212. Re:In otherwards by MooseMiester · · Score: 1

      Capital has never, and will never, care about the happiness of their workers unless those workers force them to care. We had to fight tooth and nail for the rights we have now; eight hour days, forty hour weeks, weekends, workplace safety, sick leave, maternity leave, minimum wage. These things make workers happy, and none of them were offered up voluntarily. They had to be bought with the blood and the lives of the working class from generations ago, and capital has been tirelessly waging a ceaseless campaign to take them back.

      I'm sure you believe this Marxist nonsense, and I am wasting my time here, but SERIOUSLY have you ever actually MANAGED workers?

      Comparing serfs in a feudal society to modern workers is a great community organizing strategy, as the goal is to make people angry in order to control them. The problem with this whole message - that's it's the poor worker pitted against the royalty (Marxist/Leninism), "the man" (1960) "the establishment" (1970) the "evil corporation" (1980-present).. is so completely disconnected from reality it's pathetic, really. The whole "us" against "them" mindset is a fabrication.

      The idea that you can globally quantify worker happiness is equally myopic, it's just not that simple. If you're managing a high turnover, low education work force (like a McDonald's) your strategy as a manager is completely different than managing high paid developers - if you want productivity.

      --
      Murphy was an optimist
    213. Re:In otherwards by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Actually, "A is B, therefore B is A" is the symmetry property, not the transitivity property. Transitivity is "A is B, B is C, therefore A is C". But you are correct that both are not necessary properties of any given set of nodes {A, B, C}.

    214. Re:In otherwards by lgw · · Score: 1

      You have a strange idea of "special privileges" when they apply to everyone. And how does this in any way apply to treating employees badly in the first place?

      --
      Socialism: a lie told by totalitarians and believed by fools.
    215. Re:In otherwards by Zordak · · Score: 1

      So you're saying ... you can choose pain, pain, death, and pain, but that's not got much pain it it?

      --

      Today's Sesame Street was brought to you by the number e.
    216. Re:In otherwards by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yeah now they can see how much I don't give a shit on every level. Sometimes that's good.

    217. Re:In otherwards by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It isn't. Libertarian is the opposite of authoritarian. There can be free market libertarians or communist libertarians or anything in between. Base word being liberty.

      Don't let some crazy American politicians who call themselves libertarians color the word for you.

    218. Re:In otherwards by morgauxo · · Score: 1

      Yes, I agree we will reach a point (if we aren't already there) where we do not have enough work to keep everyone going for 40 hours.

      I'm not sure what a basic income is. I'm guessing it's an income that everyone gets no matter what. From the government? Please correct me if that isn't it. I don't think we need to gaurantee everyone gets paid even without work. There is always going to be something that needs done, even if all it is is keeping an eye on the 'robots'. We have to incentivize people to do this somehow.

      I think there are two ways to look at labor saving technology. By enabling us to produce with less work we can either work less or produce more. I think our current society has been attempting to do the latter. The result is we consume more. We are constantly throwing away things that our parents wouldn't have even dreamed of one day owning so we can get the newsest, slightly better itteration.

      The other way to look at is is to work less. Unfortunately our current society doesn't really support this. Even hourly workers cost much more than their hourly wage. (in the first world) At the low end the bigger expense is healthcare, not the hourly wage. It is cheaper to encourage workers to work more hours, even offering doubletime pay than it is to hire more workers. Companies are financially encouraged to thiin our their workers to the minimum they can get by with.

      I think we need a healthy combination of both. We should always be striving to produce more, or maybe I should say to produce better. Instead of constantly filling our landfills with 6 month old iPhones and 2 year old televisions how do we incentivize companies to produce things that improve the world in ways that are truly new? Our land based automobile technologies are almost completely optimized versions of what they were 100 years ago. When do we let that go and get our flying cars? Our life spans are decades longer than they recently were. When do we get medicines that allow us to be active and enjoy those extra years?

      Still.. with increasing automation I don't think we can get by with just increased production alone. With labor saving devices reducing the NEED for work we should start expecting more free time as individuals. Rather than working massive overtime, trying to get rich it's time to be rich enjoying what we have. We need to fix healthcare and any other problems that incentivize employers to hire fewer people working more hours. Then we need to start shrinking the work week while maintaining wages. If technology is allowing companies to produce more with less then those companies should be able to afford wages which allow people to maintain their lifestyles while working fewer hours. Currently I think these increased profits are being pocketed by the executives who aren't even producing anything.

      I'm not sure that we are at the point where we actually begin cutting the work week back to below 40 hours. I do think it is on the horizon as technology removes more and more labor. I also think that the factories of today where people work 60 70 hour weeks are unhealthy, both for society as they don't employee as many people as they should and for the workers themselves who aren't really living their lives.

      Unfortunately there is a third option to the problem and that is what I think we are starting to see. The third option" is simply less labor needed = fewer people working and more poverty to go around. So long as we continue to lean on the first solution alone (produce/consume) more without bringing in the second (less work per worker) we are doomed to eventually fall to this third option.

    219. Re: In otherwards by joelbunker · · Score: 1

      I never thought of myself as a libertarian (And how business jumped to politics that fast blew my mind as to peoples stupidity as well.), but if libertarian thought is like this gentlemen's post then sign me up. People are tired of b.s., and are smarter than those peddling that bs think.

    220. Re:In otherwards by Jane+Q.+Public · · Score: 1

      "Guilty until proven innocent' is a direct contradiction to the legal principle that one is considered innocent until proven guilty."

      "Innocent until proven guilty" is an ETHICAL principle, on which our laws are based. Not the other way around, as you seem to think.

      An" error in thinking". The tests themselves are not "unreliable". The way people think about the tests IS.

      As you have just proved, quite beautifully. If you are still confused, look at Example 2 on that page, and try thinking about it.

    221. Re: In otherwards by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You are a fucking ass.

    222. Re:In otherwards by buswolley · · Score: 1
      I can do anything i want on my land, until it hurts someone else (e.g. poisons their land and water).

      I tend to follow this rule: If it hurts myself, the law should not interfere. If those actions directly hurt others or directly hurt those to whom I am responsible, then the laws and regulations should be in effect. It is dumb to not wear a seat belt, but I should not be compelled to wear one. I should be compelled to make my child wear a safety restraint, however. I should be able to buy any type of drug, but as soon as that drug leads me to endanger the welfare of others, then the state should be able to intervene.

      Also I am a libertarian who understand that we have a fiat currency. Some (i.e. MMTers) would like to empower the federal government to guarantee a job through spending (printing), but I disagree. I disagree not because of a fear of debt, which is erroneous, or of inflation necessarily, I fear an overly powered central government with an even larger purse. Instead, I would use that increased purse to make block grants to states to run governments more locally, and to helicopter drop a yearly inheritance on every citizen of the united states of equal amounts.

      --

      A Good Troll is better than a Bad Human.

    223. Re:In otherwards by bbsalem · · Score: 1

      That is because if you are conservative, "Freedom" is for your elite, not everybody. Greed can and does often lead to exclusive institutions especially if you start off assuming that scarcity rules the world. It is hard to see the universal rights of man when you are trying every day to put yourself above the rest, an overlord. elitist view of mankind. That is what drive Nazism in Germany 80 years ago. It had roots in American Capitalists who believed in Social Darwinism, or competative advantage of a social elite, which is a misreading of Darwin.

    224. Re: In otherwards by geoskd · · Score: 1

      Why don't you tell the name and location of this company so that your information can be verified and the company challenged. Slavery was bannished a long time ago. Doesn't matter if it's just 20% slavery and 80% 'voluntary and paid work'.

      I live in NY, and the company is UPS.

      --
      I wish I had a good sig, but all the good ones are copyrighted
    225. Re:In otherwards by bbsalem · · Score: 1

      But of course the catch is here that you are "free" only if you get the jump on the next guy. "Freedom" consists of taking opportunity from competitors in this unregulated economic and political model. The thing about "freedom" as an institutionalized idea, as a rule of law, is not lack of restraint on you, but it is an acceptance of the idea that your citizenship depends on a balance of your power and the power everyone else has. Now, given that people tend universally to abuse power, the practical implementation of a "free" society requires that you feel somehow responsible for the welfare of your fellows, at least with the knowledge that if you are doing something unfair, even following the rules of business success, that your actions could be viewed negatively by different people at a different time, for which you could be held to account.

      German citizens held to account by the Allies at the end of WWII pleaded that they were only doing what was expected of them, when a higher standard of human rights and dignity could be applied to them. The same is true of your argument.

    226. Re:In otherwards by just_a_monkey · · Score: 1

      The problem with this logic is that society needs a certain number of people to work in those low end jobs.

      Meanwhile, at the Google Robotics Division...

      --
      How inappropriate to call this planet Earth, when clearly it is Ocean.
    227. Re:In otherwards by just_a_monkey · · Score: 1

      That is, what libertarianism means in practice is that if your oppressor isn't using violence to oppress you, you're on your own.

      --
      How inappropriate to call this planet Earth, when clearly it is Ocean.
    228. Re:In otherwards by Rich0 · · Score: 1

      And the easiest way to do that would be to compare productivity and happiness of workers that are in close temporal and geographical proximity.

      Comparing productivity and happiness of workers today with slaves in the 1800s or feudal serfs in the middle ages, or cavemen seems pretty pointless

      That was basically my point.

    229. Re:In otherwards by TsuruchiBrian · · Score: 1

      That was basically my point.

      Ok...

      My point was that technological improvements don't just increase perceived productivity, but increases in *actual* productivity.

    230. Re:In otherwards by carljosephsmith · · Score: 1

      You do understand that incorporation is conceptually alien to Libertarian philosophy?? Libertarians do not recognise the government's claim that an organisation is equal to a person when granted that status by the state, but not otherwise. Corporations depend on the state for their existence. They can not possibly exist in a free market. Your ignorance is forgivable, lots of people misunderstand political definitions, and very often confuse capitalism and corporatism. That's normal. But to publish rants online, without even bothering to read a few articles on the subject, is just trolling.

    231. Re:In otherwards by Zynder · · Score: 1

      History is once again your teacher. And not olden days history but stuff from just a couple decades ago up until this very minute. Why does America have a middle class that is fairly large? Well some would say that is because once Unions forced companies to make those workers happy (cause they sure weren't doing it on their own), America in general prospered. I think that's what you 6 digit UIDs refer to as the Golden Years. Your ideal contract is a pipe dream. Let's say I didn't like the terms of my current contract because the boss said I'd have to take a 50% pay reduction. I tell him to take a hike. It would not surprise me one bit if he had a replacement for me within a week that would indeed take my job for half my pay. The lower down the chain of labor skills you go, the shorter that replacement time is. When you get down to the labor job classification, such as a factory line worker, in my town there are actually people at the temp staffing places just sitting there all day waiting for an on-call job offer. If you have a surplus of laborers waiting for anything they can get, then you actually think that management wouldn't use the proverbial whip to keep your ass moving? I know they do. My line boss at a futon factory (I lasted but one week) always ran around bitching "There's a dozen guys waiting outside the gate for your job. Perform or GTFO" That extra informative /. story about Amazon warehouse torture is also in agreement with my observations. You may be out of touch with the plight of the lower classes (and I say that with a cringe, I need a thesaurus) since I'd imagine you're firmly middle class like most of us slashdotters. They still to this day get treated as throw away items. And still to this day companies are only doing the bare minimum necessary to comply with law regarding Worker's Rights. Google's method may be nice if you're one of the lucky, but it has to be terribly expensive just for the Mt Dew budget. You have be to rolling around in stupid money before you can be so generous. Companies that are already surfing the black line would definitely not even think about such frivolous expenditures unless you're a CxO, that is. So don't look back too far at all in history and see what is coming to fruition. Now that my generation isn't really fighting for Unions, the corps are tightening the rules again. The income gap between those who have and have not is getting bigger and the wealth is stagnating at the top. Us middle class folks can't sustain this level of lifestyle with your employer constantly taking benefits away, not giving raises that at least match inflation, and yet keep raiding the company coffers for "bonuses".

    232. Re:In otherwards by Zynder · · Score: 1

      Do you have a wildly popular show on A&E called Duck Dynasty? I swear I have heard these words before....

    233. Re:In otherwards by Zynder · · Score: 1

      Are you talking about God? Or Santa? Or the Easter Bunny? I don't know who this "Market" person is but he's a douche and needs to be put down. Your post is so nebulous. The market is not a person, but is ran by people. You say the market can't magically bend and let everyone be rich but you know it doesn't have to be as bad as it is. We, the people, run this market. We can make it do whatever the hell we want provided we have enough influence (ie money). The market isn't the greedy uncaring bastard you make it out to be- your boss is.

    234. Re:In otherwards by Zynder · · Score: 1

      Wow, Obi-wan. "This isn't the Libertarian you're looking for." Nice hand waving.

    235. Re:In otherwards by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      And if's and but's were candies and nuts, we'd all have a merry Xmas. You keep saying "should be" because you know that isn't the reality of it. I should be rich. I should have a 12inch dick. I should be fucking your mom. Alas I am doing none of these.


      -- Yes it's an AC insult! Were you expecting anything more in a Slashdot comment?

    236. Re: In otherwards by Zynder · · Score: 1

      Next you'll tell me Emacs won!

    237. Re:In otherwards by Zynder · · Score: 1

      From your link:
      "Manna is meant to be a thought-provoking read or conceptual prototype rather than an entertaining novel"

      And just like 1984, I am sure Mr. Brain didn't think it would be taken as neither but as an instructional manual on how to make it so. I don't want to live on this planet anymore :(

    238. Re:In otherwards by Zynder · · Score: 1

      You're gonna have to clarify that. Drug tests are still alive and kicking and they are pretty much mandatory for any job above minimum wage. I don't think anyone of importance has realized anything. We're on the same page though. I hate them with a passion, and evidently so do you.

    239. Re:In otherwards by JoeMerchant · · Score: 1

      No wonder it's popular.... No, I've never watched, though I did hear something about a homosexual scandal getting one of the bearded ones chucked from the show.

    240. Re:In otherwards by next_ghost · · Score: 1

      Are you talking about God? Or Santa? Or the Easter Bunny? I don't know who this "Market" person is but he's a douche and needs to be put down.

      I'm talking about the combined effects of everybody's individual choices.

      You say the market can't magically bend and let everyone be rich but you know it doesn't have to be as bad as it is. We, the people, run this market. We can make it do whatever the hell we want provided we have enough influence (ie money). The market isn't the greedy uncaring bastard you make it out to be- your boss is.

      Well, guess what: the average Joe McNobody, including you and me, doesn't have anywhere near enough money to make the market care about him. Believe what you want but you can't win against game theory. At best, you could stop playing the game that has been stacked against you from the very beginning. But most people don't have even that option.

    241. Re:In otherwards by VisceralLogic · · Score: 1

      Well isn't that the very issue I am talking about? Libertarians pick and choose which liberties they support and do not support. That they often oppose worker liberty in subordination to owner liberty is telling.

      I know, right? Can't they see that the only true liberty is the liberty to work at the job of your choice for the salary of your choice?

      --
      Stop! Dremel time!
    242. Re:In otherwards by LifesABeach · · Score: 1

      Interesting, can you point us to a reference?

    243. Re:In otherwards by Khashishi · · Score: 1

      Fine, replace corporation with company. Personhood and limited liability aren't really relevant to my point.

    244. Re:In otherwards by Zynder · · Score: 1

      He also made comments about the slaves being happy using approximately the same argument you did. I was pointing that out cause you should steer away from such analysis at this time. It is unpopular.

    245. Re:In otherwards by Rich0 · · Score: 1

      I agree with that, but going WAY back in the thread it was suggested that serfs weren't very happy, and they weren't very productive (both compared to modern workers). Both are true, but to establish a causal relationship you need to control for the impact of technology. Would a modern serf be less productive than a modern employee? Actually, even that isn't quite right because the argument is about workers being happy, not workers being bound to the cube, or whatever.

    246. Re:In otherwards by denzacar · · Score: 1

      It's too bad so much iconic dystopic science fiction was written or cinematized in the 80s (Nineteen Eighty-Four and Bladerunner, to name but two film examples), since it means that all you need to trick people into thinking it's impossible is a bright and cheery computer interface.

      Nah... it isn't that.
      It's the awareness on some level that both -topias are broken and based on faulty logic.

      Only it is more obvious in utopias - which is why few writers dare to wax poetic about utopias.
      With two exceptions - a flawed or in some way threatened utopia (so not really an utopia) and short fairy tales for small children.

      It's easier to hide the fallacy the whole that thing hinges on when describing a dystopia - as much of the story is usually anchored in reality.
      Just keep piling on examples of human monstrosity from known history and you're set.

      And yet... the fallacy is quite glaring once seen.
      Ah! Here it is. Heh... no wonder it was memorable. Neil Gaiman wrote it. Completely missed that all these years.

      It's a Matrix story.
      And without spoiling too much if you haven't read it, it kicks the -topia concept in the balls and leaves it lying quivering on the floor as soon as you give it any thought.

      See... both -topias rely on two basic concepts.
      One - the present -topia will last FOREVER. Boot stamping on a human face... blah-blah. They lived happily... blah-blah.
      Clearly, those are out the window before the line is even said.
      "Really guys? You got a boot that lasts FOREVER? Fuck me! You just killed off entropy. And a bunch of other things."

      The other being that the U or Dys -topia exists ONLY from the human perspective. And often not even every human's but only from the main protagonist's perspective.
      Most characters in Brazil don't live in a dystopia from their point of view. And even the ending has Sam "escaping" into a "happily ever after" - from his perspective.

      In other words, for a -topia to work one must ignore and wall off the entirety of the Universe forever and concentrate on as few humans as possible.
      And that's a pretty big elephant to ignore.

      On some level, we know that instinctively.
      That's why when presented with a U or Dys-topia we go "Naaah... this can't really happen this way."
      The fault is not in the cheery interface OR us, it's in the concept of the -topias.

      --
      Mit der Dummheit kämpfen Götter selbst vergebens
    247. Re:In otherwards by gordo3000 · · Score: 1

      actually, if you look at both productivity and hours worked, they were superior in asian rice growing (namely, communally owned property) vs serfs. And a quick look at the differences in productivity between southern slaves and northern laborers will show you slaves were FAR less productive.

      Only in a world where uneducated work is the vast majority is your view validated (and yes, that was true several hundred to thousands of years ago). But in a modern country, that is far enough from true that you find people who are incentivized to become educated and skilled are far more valuable than those who you force to do X. Education and command of skills is antithetical to a society that promotes slavery, serfdom, or child labor. Even modern labor movement couldn't really begin until the work demanded enough skills that you couldn't just fire your entire workforce and hire a different one.

    248. Re: In otherwards by Xman73x · · Score: 0

      In other words the invasion of privacy to me this is breaking our constitutional rights as Americans

    249. Re:In otherwards by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It just takes micromanagement to an entirely new level. No thanks to these.

      It just takes micromanagement to an entirely new level. No thanks to these.

      Ok this is "Too far" BUT I can see te frustration why on productivity. We were paying a guy $45/hr and he was doing about 15 minutes per hour of actual work. Between his wife and friends IM'ing, browsing and checking personal emails his projects were never on time or during the time period he could collaborate with co-workers. He ended up working after 5 but couldn't collaborate til the next day and sometimes it created "work done for nothing."

      Several employees were fired after several warnings but easily over 100k lost in time and money, not to mention the time to interview, train and bring new staff up to speed. We had to implement stricter policies and prohibit personal phones in the work place. If there was WORK ETHIC there would not be a need for employers to have to result to this level. Most objections and uproar are from employees BUT the damage it causes does not come out of their check. If they had to pay I a msure their views would be different. There is a difference between mild social interaction and abuse.

      I am all for changing hourly to productivity based pay schedule if it continues to be abused. Start charging for the free office coffee and internet access and runn it like Starbucks. The way I see it, abuse is theft. You hear about people on ghost payrolls but what is the difference wit someone who shows up and barely works. Not fair to your fellow co-worker that does work.

    250. Re:In otherwards by lsatenstein · · Score: 1

      It just takes micromanagement to an entirely new level. No thanks to these.

      Make man into machines, However, the good side is, there is no good side.

      Slave away programmer, architect. Only one exempt would be the dead individual.

      --
      Leslie Satenstein Montreal Quebec Canada
    251. Re:In otherwards by gordo3000 · · Score: 1

      that isn't true at all, all industry, when you pay off government to put in nice barriers to competition in the name of safety/quality/job preservation/"efficiency" tends towards monopoly. Of course every business would love to be a monopoly. But that isn't the natural state, and in relatively deregulated industries, you don't see them naturally forming. The profit motive brings in competition too quickly.

      leaving the market to work it out does work, the problem is that any one business man can buy enough politicians to make sure he doesn't have to compete. And it is rare to find a person supportive of deregulation but also for efficient taxing of externalities.

    252. Re:In otherwards by lessthan · · Score: 1

      The cost of entry into any industry can be controlled. It can be controlled by the industry or the government. Who has a greater interest in competition?

      --
      Space Shuttle was a program that strapped humans to an explosion and tried to stab through the sky with fire and math
    253. Re:In otherwards by Fjandr · · Score: 1

      People frequently only remember encounters with the extremists of groups with whom they disagree. That's why talking heads tend to try to lump all Republicans or Democrats together as holding the same positions as the loudmouth douchebags in their respective camps who yell incessantly from places of ignorance.

      As for myself, I am a libertarian who believes in absolute corporate subservience to the government under which its charter is written. As a legal construct, they have no rights whatsoever. Businesses run by an individual or group that operates without immunities unavailable to ordinary individuals are another matter entirely. They should be free to operate on the basis of free association and not be subject to State interference with their private contracts. They should be limited only by the same criminal and civil laws which apply to any other natural individual.

      Many other libertarians also agree with the above logic, but it tends to require getting to know ordinary libertarians, rather than loudmouth extremists. The latter tend to be a poor representation of any particular group, especially one as diverse as libertarians.

    254. Re:In otherwards by Fjandr · · Score: 1

      It's a convenient tool to try and discredit libertarian ideas by trotting out the ideas of people who are decidedly non-libertarian. Most people aren't willing to look much past the surface, and take such accusations at face value, and so the lies spread.

      Supporting business in general is not the same thing as corporatist cheerleading, but you wouldn't know that to listen to the gross generalizations made by people with an agenda that doesn't include integrity.

    255. Re:In otherwards by Fjandr · · Score: 1

      You can't have corporations without a state.

    256. Re:In otherwards by Fjandr · · Score: 1

      I don't know any libertarians who oppose unions in general (to use an oft-trotted-out example of libertarian "heartlessness"). What they oppose is mandatory membership, or voluntary membership but mandatory dues payment. Most of the policies opposed are not opposed because of their intended ends, but because of their means. Calling someone heartless because they object to the manner in which something is done (such as the convenient ignoring of the legal process when expedient, and the inevitable protests when the other side does likewise with legislation you oppose) absolutely lacks integrity.

      There is also frequently the issue that a particular problem is not the province of the Federal government, but that of the State governments. That horse was let out of the barn long ago though. The 9th and 10th Amendments are not enforced, and the expansion of the ICC and taxation authority have made the explicit statement within it that the Constitution is a limited grant of powers completely meaningless.

      There's not a single right I fail to support, personally. I dare say I support more than are explicitly written into the Constitution, because of the implicit guarantees of the 9th and 10th Amendments. I can't say the same of many Democrats or Republicans.

    257. Re:In otherwards by buswolley · · Score: 1
      Generally good points, except I do not know why you bring up heartlessness...as I had not. Let us suppose that Enterprise A makes doodads. Enterprise B makes humbugs. Enterprise A needs B's humbugs for its doodads, and Enterprise B needs A's capital. Enterprise A contracts with Enterprise B. As part of that contract Enterprise A agrees to not buy humbugs from any other 3rd enterprise unless members of the 3rd enterprise agree to pay contribute a fee to Enterprise B to recover lost income. ,

      The above contract seems lawful.

      .

      Let us suppose two other Enterprises. Enterprise A owns machinery and patents concerning the production of engines. Enterprise B is co-operative of skilled labor. Enterprise A needs B's labor, and B needs A's capital. Enterprise A contracts with Enterprise B, and as part of that contract Enterprise A agrees to not contract for labor with any other enterprise unless members of the third enterprise agree to contribute dues to Enterprise B.

      This is the same lawful contract. Isn't it?

      --

      A Good Troll is better than a Bad Human.

    258. Re:In otherwards by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The membership isn't "mandatory". People are free to simply not work there if they oppose having to join or pay dues to the union. Its no different than any requirement imposed on by the employer directly. You can choose to abide by those terms and work there or not. So at least from a "libertarian" perspective, there is nothing "mandatory" about being forced to join a union or to pay union dues if you want to work in a certain job in a certain place.

      IOW, you "libertarianism" is only about the "freedom" of "certain" groups being able to impose requirements but not others. If Hitachi says you need to be tracked like a dog, well it isn't "mandatory" just don't work there. But if a union says you need to be a part of the union and pay dues, well that's somehow "different"???

    259. Re: In otherwards by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Why is it always about politics? The liberals aren't responsible for everything. The conservatives are known to take away your rights as well.

  2. They should call it an anti-retention device by TWiTfan · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Guaranteed to get rid of off your employees who have other options!

    --
    The cow says "Moo." The dog says "Woof." The Timothy says "Thanks, valued customer. We appreciate your input."
    1. Re:They should call it an anti-retention device by DoomHamster · · Score: 5, Interesting

      This is why it is important for the plotucracy to engineer a global economy where capitol can freely traverse national borders but the workforce cannot.

    2. Re:They should call it an anti-retention device by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "Capitol"? That's rather large to move around, don't you think?

    3. Re:They should call it an anti-retention device by Opportunist · · Score: 1, Insightful

      You mean, like, what we got now?

      --
      We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
    4. Re:They should call it an anti-retention device by DoomHamster · · Score: 0

      Precisely

    5. Re:They should call it an anti-retention device by gregor-e · · Score: 1

      On the plus side, salaries will be going up. (Because they'd have to pay people a whole lot more to put up with that).

    6. Re:They should call it an anti-retention device by DoomHamster · · Score: 2

      Grrr...I KNEW someone was going to catch that...why can't we edit our posts here?

    7. Re:They should call it an anti-retention device by ShanghaiBill · · Score: 2

      Guaranteed to get rid of off your employees who have other options!

      You are assuming that the employees would know about the sensors in their badges. Why would the managers tell them?

    8. Re:They should call it an anti-retention device by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Guaranteed to get rid of off your employees who have other options!

      What an adorably gigantic condition you just casually tacked on to the end there! It must be nice having been born somewhere with a massive job market!

    9. Re:They should call it an anti-retention device by meta-monkey · · Score: 4, Funny

      Beta!

      --
      We don't have a state-run media we have a media-run state.
    10. Re:They should call it an anti-retention device by CanHasDIY · · Score: 1

      Guaranteed to get rid of off your employees who have other options!

      You are assuming that the employees would know about the sensors in their badges. Why would the managers tell them?

      Judging from the pictures, I'd think it would be pretty obvious this isn't your typical RFID badge.

      --
      An enigma, wrapped in a riddle, shrouded in bacon and cheese
    11. Re:They should call it an anti-retention device by fatgraham · · Score: 4, Funny

      But unfortunately, the budget has been spent on some new management tools.

    12. Re:They should call it an anti-retention device by lagomorpha2 · · Score: 2

      On the plus side, salaries will be going up. (Because they'd have to pay people a whole lot more to put up with that).

      Not if all the companies in your field adopt it at the same time. Then you have nowhere to go to to escape it and they don't have to increase salaries.

    13. Re:They should call it an anti-retention device by jeffmeden · · Score: 4, Funny

      Grrr...I KNEW someone was going to catch that...why can't we edit our posts here?

      The plotucracy doesn't want you to have that feature.

      Sincerely,

      Your coroprate overlords

    14. Re:They should call it an anti-retention device by i+kan+reed · · Score: 1

      You think there's genuine free competition in the job market?

    15. Re:They should call it an anti-retention device by cusco · · Score: 3, Funny

      Why would you assume that managers are bright enough not to tell them? :)

      --
      "Think about how stupid the average person is. Now, realise that half of them are dumber than that." - George Carlin
    16. Re:They should call it an anti-retention device by meta-monkey · · Score: 2

      It's adorable that you think that.

      --
      We don't have a state-run media we have a media-run state.
    17. Re:They should call it an anti-retention device by ArbitraryName · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Sounds like a great time to start up a competing company. You can hire off the cream of the crop talent without having to pay above market average.

    18. Re:They should call it an anti-retention device by buswolley · · Score: 4, Insightful
      Bingo.

      How about this. Management has to wear these and the data gets broadcast to the workers in summary emails

      --

      A Good Troll is better than a Bad Human.

    19. Re: They should call it an anti-retention device by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It just takes money...

      Somebody can just decree a new Capitol... It's really easy with money

    20. Re:They should call it an anti-retention device by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Not if all the companies in your field adopt it at the same time.

      We can't even get some of the companies to agree on standards, how are we going to get them to agree on this? Before the end of the year there will be 1/2 dozen competing "short leash" platforms that don't work together and have different backend requirements (including some that only run on XP).

    21. Re:They should call it an anti-retention device by davydagger · · Score: 1

      thats an entirely unreasonable expectation.

      They are just going to get kids or other people who are desperate for work, and have no previous work experiance.

    22. Re:They should call it an anti-retention device by Hatta · · Score: 3, Funny

      You misspelled coprolite.

      --
      Give me Classic Slashdot or give me death!
    23. Re:They should call it an anti-retention device by sqrt(2) · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Not if this technology actually delivers and makes the workforce more efficient--even if it's through dehumanizing total control. Your hippy dippy startup won't be able to compete.

      So while you're giving extravagant perks to your employees such as unmetered bathroom breaks and letting them skip their quarterly non-work related conversation log review, your competitors are brutalizing their employees and reaping the rewards associated with turning human beings into pliable, docile, terrified, machines.

      The worst thing about fascism is that it can actually deliver; as long as you don't get side tracked by useless and expensive crusades of ethnic cleansing or territorial expansion.

      --
      If you build it, nerds will come. Soylentnews.org
    24. Re:They should call it an anti-retention device by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Judging from the pictures, I'd think it would be pretty obvious this isn't your typical RFID badge.

      Just put them in an ad-hoc Faraday cage (made out of the aluminum foil your sandwich was wrapped in).

    25. Re:They should call it an anti-retention device by eeyore · · Score: 1

      That's the first feature that Management will disable. It would be a good idea in an organisation where transparency is highly valued, however.
      --
      E

    26. Re:They should call it an anti-retention device by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Sounds like a great time to start up a competing company. You can hire off the cream of the crop talent without having to pay above market average.

      .. . Because we all have so much cash in our pockets already that anyone who wants to can start their own company.

    27. Re:They should call it an anti-retention device by stox · · Score: 1

      Congratulations! You're management has set a new world's record for consecutive hours playing Solitaire.

      --
      "To those who are overly cautious, everything is impossible. "
    28. Re:They should call it an anti-retention device by RobertLTux · · Score: 1

      And thats why you need to Eat Mor Chikin!! (this comment brought to you by Chick-Fil-A who sells you a free faraday cage with every Chicken/Spicy Chicken sandwich)

      --
      Any person using FTFY or editing my postings agrees to a US$50.00 charge
    29. Re:They should call it an anti-retention device by houghi · · Score: 1

      Some animals are more equal then others.

      --
      Don't fight for your country, if your country does not fight for you.
    30. Re: They should call it an anti-retention device by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      This is a standard that shareholders will get behind.

    31. Re:They should call it an anti-retention device by ArbitraryName · · Score: 1

      Not if this technology actually delivers and makes the workforce more efficient--even if it's through dehumanizing total control. Your hippy dippy startup won't be able to compete.

      Of course it will. In the vast majority of industries there is room for boutique competitors as well. Efficiency is not the sole determiner of market success by any means.

    32. Re:They should call it an anti-retention device by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      First, I think this thing would be illegal to use in most countries. Second, more graphs and statistics are going to ruin the economy even more. Letting a PHB play with statistics is like letting a child play with fire. Nothing good can happen.

    33. Re:They should call it an anti-retention device by psithurism · · Score: 1

      Bingo.

      How about this. Management has to wear these and the data gets broadcast to the workers in summary emails

      That might actually be great PR for upper management; as it is ,I believe they just golf all day, except when it's time to pay themselves bigger bonuses. If they staged a few productive meetings, I'd be all "Wow! Management actually does stuff; I had no idea!"

    34. Re:They should call it an anti-retention device by ArbitraryName · · Score: 1

      More than one in 10 people are self employed. I assume that's the 10+% that isn't jealously whining on Slashdot. I don't know who you think the self-employed are but I know a hell of a lot of one and two man operations (particularly skilled blue collar workers who hire a laborer or two) that had very little start up cost. In many industries it's quite possible to build a client base while still working for someone else.

    35. Re:They should call it an anti-retention device by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      because your +5 posts would be for sale as adverts.

    36. Re: They should call it an anti-retention device by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Well, you can always reply with a correction.

    37. Re:They should call it an anti-retention device by frank_adrian314159 · · Score: 2

      Efficiency is not the sole determiner of market success by any means.

      Yes, but it is the sole metric of modern economics, meaning that any activity taken using this system as a driving model will eventually have a goal of increasing that metric. As such, you will devolve to a cog, and an efficient one at that, or your relative usefulness to the economic system will be over and your employment prospects will plummet precipitously.

      The use of economics (and thus, efficiency) as the main (and almost sole) underpinning of what is "right" is the cause of most of our misery. Efficiency is important. So is kindness and happiness. However, with only a few minor exceptions, it is efficiency that we (and modern businesses and governments) covet. Because even if you can't always find a way to create creative and innovative products that make peoples' lives better - you can almost always screw another 2% out of your employees with less risk and effort.

      Minimizing risk and effort? Yeah - that's the efficiency metric in action. Have fun with it...

      --
      That is all.
    38. Re:They should call it an anti-retention device by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Cream of the crop, is that what hardened shits look like? Creamy once scoooped up?

      Most yanky companies use the Septic Tank business promotional model where the largest shits rise to the top. No thanks. You can keep your "cream of the crop", all they are good at, is manipulating the system.

    39. Re:They should call it an anti-retention device by egcagrac0 · · Score: 1

      .. . Because we all have so much cash in our pockets already that anyone who wants to can start their own company.

      Individually, perhaps no... but collectively, perhaps yes. The group of workers who feel newly micromanaged may feel it worthwhile to pool resources to start such a non-micromanaging company.

    40. Re:They should call it an anti-retention device by omglolbah · · Score: 1

      Because if they do not they're probably violating all sorts of laws?

    41. Re:They should call it an anti-retention device by lgw · · Score: 1

      Startups don't compete with large corporations. That's not their purpose. Their purpose is to invent something that seems like a product, then get bought by a big corporation.

      "Efficiency" matters a lot to bringing an established product to the market cheaply, but it means fuck-all to inventing new products. And while one company is busy "brutalizing their employees and reaping the rewards associated with turning human beings into pliable, docile, terrified, machines", their competitor has just bought a start-up that figured out how to do that job with actual machines, so they win.

      Mindless drudge-work is slowly vanishing as a kind of employment, and this is not (in the long run) a bad thing.

      --
      Socialism: a lie told by totalitarians and believed by fools.
    42. Re:They should call it an anti-retention device by bsolar · · Score: 1

      If in your country it's actually allowed to conduct this kind of surveillance without the consent of the worker you have worse problems that fancy badges.

    43. Re:They should call it an anti-retention device by wasteoid · · Score: 1

      Why would we need management, if we have these new devices? Aren't they supposed to replace management? That would be the real cost-savings to most companies.

    44. Re:They should call it an anti-retention device by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Your anarchist startup can always compete, since they have zero in-house bureaucracy, they round all the corners in accounting, cheat on all taxes (with willing and 100% employee cooperation) and over there, Joe Random Worker can independently respond to practically all customer concerns.

      They also have good relations with the syndicalist trade union which just cut off your plant's electrical power, clogged the sewage pipe and dug up the road in the middle of night.

    45. Re:They should call it an anti-retention device by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      lol!

    46. Re:They should call it an anti-retention device by CCarrot · · Score: 1

      Not if this technology actually delivers and makes the workforce more efficient--even if it's through dehumanizing total control. Your hippy dippy startup won't be able to compete.

      So while you're giving extravagant perks to your employees such as unmetered bathroom breaks and letting them skip their quarterly non-work related conversation log review, your competitors are brutalizing their employees and reaping the rewards associated with turning human beings into pliable, docile, terrified, machines.

      The worst thing about fascism is that it can actually deliver; as long as you don't get side tracked by useless and expensive crusades of ethnic cleansing or territorial expansion.

      Perhaps business could be improved by advertising that your emloyees are free-range and/or organic? Seems to work pretty good for the egg industry...

      I kid, but it occurs to me that I do buy free-range eggs and meat (forget whoreganic, I consider it a useless and near-criminally inefficient practice), precisely because I don't want to support the practices of typical non-free-range farms...so maybe such advertising would be effective after all?

      --
      "I love animals! Some are cute, others are tasty, what's not to like?" - Betsy Schroeder, Jeopardy contestant
    47. Re:They should call it an anti-retention device by Anti-Social+Network · · Score: 1

      They'd just hire an extra intern (who isn't "critical/important enough" to have a tracking badge) to run around with their tag, doing productive-looking things, while their secretary is "alone" in that office "organizing paperwork"...

      --
      Goddammit just when I get my first +5 the Beta rolls out and kills everything
    48. Re:They should call it an anti-retention device by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I knew those damn plum-apricot hybrids were trying to take over the world!!

    49. Re:They should call it an anti-retention device by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      To the stockholders in summary emails.

    50. Re:They should call it an anti-retention device by nurb432 · · Score: 1

      Not if this technology actually delivers and makes the workforce more efficient

      Nothing at this level of draconian motoring will deliver. It will only breed rebellion and sabotage, and in the end, self-destruction.

      --
      ---- Booth was a patriot ----
    51. Re:They should call it an anti-retention device by Darinbob · · Score: 1

      Once you're left with a workforce who realize they have no viable alternatives, then you can really start squeezing them.

    52. Re:They should call it an anti-retention device by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Not if this technology actually delivers and makes the workforce more efficient--even if it's through dehumanizing total control. Your hippy dippy startup won't be able to compete.

      Well then fine, instead of working for anyone (as they all do this), and instead of starting my own company (as I would fail) - Fuck working, I will simply steal everything I can from these "bosses" and perhaps do away with them afterwards.

      It's not like I have any humanity or life left at that point anyway, so it's all the same to us...

    53. Re:They should call it an anti-retention device by Bite+The+Pillow · · Score: 1

      If you hire people who know what the alternative is, and the company is small enough, they may make personal sacrifices to ensure the company with the digital boss goes under so it does not become a reality. And that was the point - hiring people who object to this.

      And if you hire wisely instead of taking every rat from the ship, you can probably do more with fewer people. Breaking even is not hard to do in this scenario, and recruitment/replacement costs could start to eat up the budget gained from the digital bosses, leaving the victory with the hippies.

      It is one of many possible scenarios, it is just as likely as is yours, if not more so.

    54. Re:They should call it an anti-retention device by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      ... You mean, like, what we got now?

      The EU isn't just about standardizing laws and creating free-trade agreements. It also allows workers to freely move between some 17 different countries.

    55. Re:They should call it an anti-retention device by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      ... Why would the managers tell them?

      Why would the managers hide it? They want the employees to know big brother is watching. Some bosses already count toilet breaks. It means the employees won't do anything where the boss will disapprove. Besides, the second some manager says " I saw you and the secretary together in the supplies closet for 20 minutes", all employees will know they're being watched.

    56. Re:They should call it an anti-retention device by Opportunist · · Score: 1

      You might want to read the fine print of that. Yes, in theory you're free to move about. In practice, though, it's not that easy. Even ignoring such petty things like having to leave everything behind you to start over in a country where you don't even speak the language.

      Trust me, it's way easier for money to move than for people.

      --
      We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
    57. Re:They should call it an anti-retention device by lessthan · · Score: 1

      Thank you! I felt alone. Every time I try to explain to someone that there is a such thing as too much efficiency, I get the "How did he escape the loony-bin ?" look.

      --
      Space Shuttle was a program that strapped humans to an explosion and tried to stab through the sky with fire and math
    58. Re:They should call it an anti-retention device by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The effecient fascist thank god, is a myth. Fascism discourages innovation, their pursuit of blind obedience not only breeds corruption but also opens up Bavarian fire drills. It closes them off to noticing and taking action to actual problems as opposed to whatever pretense. The expansionism in the first place is an unsustainabble attempt at propping up their failing system.

      Its persistance as a myth is troubling. Perhaps it is from confusion of strictness with efficency. Fascist rhetoric is full of "the ends justify the means" to excuse their actions. Mussolini never made the trains run on time.

      Even if it actually increased efficency it would still be a losing path long term. Improvements due to innovation are orders of magnitudes better than strict compliance. It is the same flawed penny-wise and pound foolish logic as cheaping out on maintence of volatile industrial plants. Try to save a few cents and lose millions.

  3. Virtual slave by mtrachtenberg · · Score: 5, Funny

    In related news, I am pleased to announce my new "virtual slave" hardware, which intercepts communication from the "Virtual Boss" device to PHBServer and provides an excellent replacement stream of communication indicating you always participate in meetings, visit precisely three fellow employees for ten minutes each day, and never go to the bathroom. ("Virtual Slave eXtreme" will be available soon, with many customization options.)

    1. Re:Virtual slave by Opportunist · · Score: 1

      I think that's the tech equivalent of "as long as they keep acting as if they're paying me, I keep acting as if I'm working here".

      --
      We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
    2. Re:Virtual slave by DoofusOfDeath · · Score: 1

      "Virtual Slave eXtreme"

      I don't know what it is, but I'm prepared to pay you $10,000 for it right now.

    3. Re:Virtual slave by mtrachtenberg · · Score: 1

      For $20K, it will broadcast how your PHB's PHB's PHB spends his day.

    4. Re:Virtual slave by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I'm very interested in developing plugins for your new Virtual Slave as long as, you know, they don't actually have to ... um ... plug in the slave.

    5. Re:Virtual slave by gstoddart · · Score: 1

      For $20K, it will broadcast how your PHB's PHB's PHB spends his day.

      Wow, so the range is enough to cover the golf-courses and steak houses? I'm impressed.

      --
      Lost at C:>. Found at C.
    6. Re:Virtual slave by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      And for those who signed intellectual property agreements which gives the company rights to intellectual property generated during non-work time, the new tags will be inserted under the skin so the company can track their investments 24/7.

    7. Re:Virtual slave by techfilz · · Score: 1

      In related news, I am pleased to announce my new "virtual slave" hardware, which intercepts communication from the "Virtual Boss" device to PHBServer and provides an excellent replacement stream of communication indicating you always participate in meetings, visit precisely three fellow employees for ten minutes each day, and never go to the bathroom. ("Virtual Slave eXtreme" will be available soon, with many customization options.)

      And so began the Umbrella Corporation ...

    8. Re:Virtual slave by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Gattica is only a few years away...

    9. Re:Virtual slave by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Actually the guys at Hitachi already have this under development.

    10. Re:Virtual slave by burisch_research · · Score: 1

      That's the least impressive option, as it's a 50 line script that inserts something from the list of "steak house", "golf course", "mistress", and several less palatable options.

      --
      char*f="char*f=%c%s%c;main(){printf(f,34,f,34);}";main(){printf(f,34,f,34);}
    11. Re:Virtual slave by udippel · · Score: 1

      "Since when have you been working here?"
      "Since I was told that I'd be laid off otherwise."

    12. Re:Virtual slave by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      PHB, meet BOfH! I wonder who wins that fight?

  4. Why? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    What problem are they trying to solve?

    I'd be looking for a new job.

    If the work I'm doing and the things I'm accomplishing aren't enough, they should be looking for a new employee.

    1. Re:Why? by jythie · · Score: 4, Interesting

      They are trying to solve the problem of wanting to fire individuals but needing cause, and an application like this is pretty much an automatic paper trail generator that can be mined to fit pretty much any firing.

    2. Re:Why? by jellomizer · · Score: 5, Insightful

      I have to agree, this goes against everything that is said about good management. Most good MBA schools would disprove of this.
      Why?
      1. There is a calculated benefit towards (water cooler chats), this increases overall productivity, by allowing informal collaboration and knowledge exchange.
      2. The issue between Introverted and Extroverted employees. An introverted employee in a meeting may seem very quite and engaged, however they are there listening and taking in the information, where they may come up with better solution later on. Extroverted may seem like they are engaged however they are just talking a lot of nonsense, and off topic, because they like talking.
      3. Employee intensive is Work Environment + Pay. If they feel like their freedom is being taken away from them, it is equivalent to paying them less. If an employee feels like they are being paid fairly they will perform better then one who feels like they are not.
      4. Synergy. How can you have Synergy if people are not working together, and knowing each others strengths and weaknesses?

      --
      If something is so important that you feel the need to post it on the internet... It probably isn't that important.
    3. Re:Why? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      What problem are they trying to solve?

      Insufficient satisfaction from the current state of the general Japanese business fetish for micromanagement?

    4. Re:Why? by buswolley · · Score: 1
      Bingo.

      Although there are several other bingos too./

      --

      A Good Troll is better than a Bad Human.

    5. Re:Why? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      What problem are they trying to solve?

      Having employees.

    6. Re:Why? by OldeTimeGeek · · Score: 3, Insightful

      What problem are they trying to solve? They want to recover the cost of managers. They can't get rid of the technical staff - they actually need them - but they can get rid of that expensive middle tier by automating the tracking part of management. Which all they think there is to management.

      Before you all say "Woohoo", think of this: The CIO is now your boss. You are no longer a person, you're a resource. The only way he knows you or of you is a set of numbers on a report. You either make whatever metric they use to gauge your performance or you don't. They don't care if you're sick, or if you're taking care of a child, or if you've got a personal problem - you don't make the numbers and you're gone.

    7. Re:Why? by mark-t · · Score: 1

      I thought most states had "at will" employment, where an employer could fire an employee for any reason that did not run afoul of human or civil rights, or for no reason at all. Granted, I realize that some employers will have hiring contracts in place that can make it more difficult, or at least considerably more paperwork for the employer to fire anyone they want whenever they want to, but I think those are the exception, and not the rule. That said, I can't see much need for this technology outside of companies that *do* have such employment policies.

    8. Re:Why? by jythie · · Score: 2

      Even when the state or country has at-will firing, you still have to justify it to other members of the management team. Either horizontally or vertically, there are often political consequences for firing people for personal, arbitrary, or even counterproductive reasons.

    9. Re:Why? by unrtst · · Score: 1

      The tool is scary and all, but none of your points apply to this tool or why it is bad.

      All your points are making assumptions based on the interpretation of the data.

      For example, the amount of talking done in a meeting... I would be looking at the extremes as cases to investigate further - both the guy that drones on the entire meeting and has difficulty making his point, and the guy that didn't make a peep (or just said "OK" a couple times). The same could be done by actually sitting in on the meeting, or virtually sitting in (conferenced in), or close to it by reviewing meeting minutes. The data *could* be used in a good way to help identify the meeting groups that do need assistance more than others.

      Same goes for talking to others. Some of that is good. Zero is bad (and note, introverts have no problem chatting with others; it is a numbers thing - they'd rather talk to one person at a time than a group). And they guy that does nothing about wander around talking to people all day and hiding in others offices is bad too (most likely)... at the very least, it raises some red flags that would be just as easily seen by directly involved management, and would (theoretically) allow fewer managers to effectively manage more employees - which in my mind, would be a good thing (the fewer managers in the world, the better, so long as things are still running smooth).

      With the sheer volume of data these things would create in even a mid-sized office, the data is only going to be good at identifying edge cases. Doesn't seem too bad to me. That said, the risk for abuse is awful. Using data from these as a means to fire someone is very ugly. Managing purely by numbers is awful. But, AFAICT, this tool doesn't force that.

    10. Re:Why? by Rakhar · · Score: 1

      My manager at work has actually had HR completely reverse a firing for someone that didn't come to work for three work days in a row with no notice whatsoever, while calling up at the end of each day and promising to be in the next. Reason? Not enough paperwork on said person.

      Of course on the flip side, if you follow the policies at my workplace to the letter, each and every employee should be fired roughly once per week. It's not possible to follow every policy at once.

    11. Re:Why? by mark-t · · Score: 1

      Even when the state or country has at-will firing, you still have to justify it to other members of the management team.

      Only if you don't want either a) morale among the employees to fall so far down that up won't even exist anymore or b) to look like a total douchebag to people who may be a position to make your own life more uncomfortable than it currently is.

      If you *are* a douchebag, and you don't have a problem with other people in the company knowing it, and your employees are as interchangeable and replaceable as office pencils, then those two things may not be that big a deal.

  5. I think I have to say... by cayenne8 · · Score: 2
    ...Fuck THAT!!

    Or...Take this job and shove it.

    Way too intrusive....treat people like adults, and only punish those that cannot act like an adult, but don't punish and track everyone else that is getting their job done.

    --
    Light travels faster than sound. This is why some people appear bright until you hear them speak.........
    1. Re:I think I have to say... by i+kan+reed · · Score: 1

      treat people like adults.

      Well, sure, they will, but those that work for a living aren't really people, are they?

    2. Re:I think I have to say... by cardpuncher · · Score: 0

      It's not people who work for a living that are at particular risk, it's people who work for a living AND have ordered their affairs in such a way that even a short absence of work would result in financial disaster.

      Fortunately for employers, most people do arrange their lives in this way. It's easy to see why - you can have your house, car, wife and 2 veg, shiny stuff and the occasional vacation at the time you feel entitled to them, rather than when you're old, jaded and impotent. Of course, the more stuff you acquire on credit or contract to pay for in endless monthly installments, the more jobs of precisely this kind become available and the more money there is for the people who employ them.

      It's not even a new phemomenon, back in the days of the company store, it would be well stocked with alcohol at the end of the week so that the workers' wages would be in till by the end of the weekend and the penniless workers would have no choice but to be in work bright and early on Monday morning.

      If more people had a "fuck you" buffer in their finance stream, the employment experience would be very different. Most people, though, don't even consciously think about their leap into premature indebtedness and most of those that do would take the badge rather than feel they were "reduced" to using public transport or drinking water from the tap.

    3. Re:I think I have to say... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Well, sure, they will, but those that work for a living aren't really people, are they?

      I don't work for a living and I'm really a platypus. What's your point?

    4. Re:I think I have to say... by sosume · · Score: 1

      Depends on the pay. I doubt that a company using these will be able to attract decent employees for decent pay. Either they get all the losers who are unable to get a decent job or they will have to pay triple to get the 'A-Players' to wear this. ANd the 'losers' are not the type of employees who can work independent or attend constructive meetings anyway.
      Unless *every* company introduces these or they are mandated by the state, I cannot see this technology work.

  6. Let me be the first to say... by Adeptus_Luminati · · Score: 3, Funny

    .... I quit. I for one, do not welcome our Orwellian overlords.

    --
    No trees were killed in the making of this post; however, many trillions of electrons were horribly inconvenienced.
    1. Re:Let me be the first to say... by Anne_Nonymous · · Score: 1

      This is a popular reaction, and yet I suspect the majority of complainers willing carry a similar cell phone/tracking collar around all day.

    2. Re:Let me be the first to say... by jordanjay29 · · Score: 1

      The GPS in your phone (especially inside many older office buildings) isn't quite that precise. There's a huge difference between monitoring someone's movements on a planet-wide scale (GPS) and within an office building (this device). Presumably there would be a network of ranging devices intended to create a local GPS-type field for the devices to pinpoint their location.

      Also, with a cell phone, assuming it's a business phone purchased entirely by my employer for business use only (if I have to bring my own device, there's no way I'm letting my employer stick their own software on it), they could monitor my phone calls and app usage, but not much more. I haven't yet heard of an app for smartphones that can monitor its surroundings (via mic, camera, etc) without making the phone user aware that it's running.

    3. Re:Let me be the first to say... by sdoca · · Score: 1

      There is a big difference to carrying a corporate cell phone and this device.

    4. Re:Let me be the first to say... by meta-monkey · · Score: 5, Insightful

      You say Orwellian, but it's also what everybody on Star Trek lives with. The computer keeps track of every person on the ship, their location, and their vital signs, and never seems to require command-level authorization to dispense information. Any kid can query the computer and it'll respond "Counselor Troi is in Commander Worf's quarters. Her heart rate is accelerated and her pulmonary system is taxed." And we think of Star Trek as a utopian ideal.

      --
      We don't have a state-run media we have a media-run state.
    5. Re:Let me be the first to say... by x0ra · · Score: 1

      To you talk to talk, or can you walk the walk ? It's easy to say "I quit" in an online forum, much harder in real life.

    6. Re:Let me be the first to say... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I haven't yet heard of an app for smartphones that can monitor its surroundings (via mic, camera, etc) without making the phone user aware that it's running.

      They certainly exist; however it's unlikely your employer has installed one. Most likely it's a criminal gang.

    7. Re:Let me be the first to say... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      But Star Trek shows for the most part only one small slice of life in the Federation: life aboard a military vessel or starbase.

    8. Re:Let me be the first to say... by mjr167 · · Score: 1

      Yes but they only use the computer for good and never evil. There are advantages to being able to find people. The problem is one of trust.

    9. Re:Let me be the first to say... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      But Star Trek shows for the most part only one small slice of life in the Federation: life aboard a military vessel or starbase.

      That just makes it worse. Being in Star Fleet or the Federation government puts you in the upper class of society. The lower classes would have it even worse.

      Take these guys for example.

    10. Re:Let me be the first to say... by operagost · · Score: 1

      Even trust is not enough, as the GP's example shows an innocent request can have dire consequences.

      --

      Gamingmuseum.com: Give your 3D accelerator a rest.
    11. Re:Let me be the first to say... by Floyd-ATC · · Score: 1

      The worst is that damned communicator that just won't ever stop beeping whenever some idiot wants to ask a stupid question or tell you some irrelevant story about a sign he saw or a funny cat video. Wait, we actually have those now. Nevermind.

      --
      Time flies when you don't know what you're doing
    12. Re:Let me be the first to say... by JesseMcDonald · · Score: 1

      You say Orwellian, but it's also what everybody on Star Trek lives with.

      Not everybody on Star Trek, just those in Star Fleet, an all-volunteer quasi-military organization. I would hardly consider Star Trek's "Federation of Planets" a perfect society, but the handful of ordinary citizens who appeared on the show seemed to enjoy quite a bit more privacy and independence than the average member of Star Fleet.

      --
      "The state is that great fiction by which everyone tries to live at the expense of everyone else." - Bastiat
    13. Re:Let me be the first to say... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      To be fair, Starfleet is more akin to the military than the private sector, but your point remains quasi-valid.

    14. Re:Let me be the first to say... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The difference is that Star Trek features people that (for the most part) aren't slave drivers and treat their subordinates well. Star Trek is a utopia not because of its technical features but because of its social ones. On Earth and in Starfleet ships, nobody starves, there's little to no crime, little to no disease, no wars, etc. Star Trek could easily become a dystopia (they even have one in the canon, aptly named the "Mirror Universe"), but it isn't because of how people behave.

      Technology isn't good or evil. It's how it's used that causes the problems.

    15. Re:Let me be the first to say... by BlazingATrail · · Score: 0

      The computer has also located Lt. Data in Worf's quarters. Data current status is listed as "fully functional" and speed setting is set to "oh my god".

    16. Re:Let me be the first to say... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I think the one difference in the Star Trek world is the fact that greed and the need for money has been eliminated. There is no threat of not having food/shelter or the ability to provide for your family if you didn't stay working. Work, therefore is meant to provide for the self-actualization as Maslow described, and is mostly done on a volunteer basis.

      I do see your point though.

    17. Re:Let me be the first to say... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      So do you work on a warship, meta-monkey?

    18. Re:Let me be the first to say... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      That's a military ship. Not everybody lived like that (e.g. colonies).
      Plus everybody at that time is assumed to have a better moral compass than we have. Nobody from inside would abuse the system.

    19. Re:Let me be the first to say... by mjr167 · · Score: 1

      Yes... but does anyone care if Counselor Troi is in Commander Worf's quarters? She could be doing some weird klingon therapy...

      What if Ensign Ricky is getting ready to off himself and thought it might be good to talk to Troi before deciding to hold engineering hostage because he doesn't want to go on the away mission?

      Lately we like to talk about disconnecting ourselves. But one of the reasons we connected ourselves is because we have responsibilities and sometimes these responsibilities are time critical. If your kid is stuck on a street corner in the freezing rain because he can't call you cause you turned your phone off to have a relaxing spa day, is that a good scenario?

      However, a co-worker of mine and I were at a conference giving a paper once. My co-worker's wife texted him about 30 times with messages a long the lines of "call me right now it's an emergency" right before our presentation. So he stepped out and called her. The emergency was his wife had found a stray dog... And yes, we were out of town so WTF did she think he was going to be able to do about it?

      The flip side to being connected is that responsibility now lies on the shoulders of those who are trying to contact or locate us. If the computer tells you that Troi is in Worf's quarters, don't leap to conclusions and go telling the entire ship that Troi is banging Worf. Don't text your husband 30 times demanding he call you about stupid things he can't do anything about.

    20. Re:Let me be the first to say... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      ...Any kid can query the computer and it'll respond "Counselor Troi is in Commander Worf's quarters. Her heart rate is accelerated and her pulmonary system is taxed.".

      Computer... please display video on screen 94-R.

    21. Re:Let me be the first to say... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      but in Star trek you are on a freeking starship in space; and occasionally need to be transported. and it's a fiction. and if you are into that kind of fan fiction you can find the tech being misused just like that.

    22. Re:Let me be the first to say... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I would stick the damn thing in a desk fan. on high.

    23. Re:Let me be the first to say... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You say Orwellian, but it's also what everybody on Star Trek lives with. The computer keeps track of every person on the ship, their location, and their vital signs, and never seems to require command-level authorization to dispense information. Any kid can query the computer and it'll respond "Counselor Troi is in Commander Worf's quarters. Her heart rate is accelerated and her pulmonary system is taxed." And we think of Star Trek as a utopian ideal.

      To be fair the Enterprise also lets any random kid launch a FTL capable shuttlecraft that can be armed with antimatter weapons without any kind of authorization, uses the admin password for their C&C systems as their transponder tag, and only accepts passwords spoken aloud even when in the presence of unauthorized personal.

      Operational security is not the Federation's strong suit.

    24. Re:Let me be the first to say... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Star fleet is a military organization, as much as they like to pretend that they're not. Different rules apply.

    25. Re:Let me be the first to say... by mjwx · · Score: 1

      You say Orwellian, but it's also what everybody on Star Trek lives with. The computer keeps track of every person on the ship, their location, and their vital signs, and never seems to require command-level authorization to dispense information. Any kid can query the computer and it'll respond "Counselor Troi is in Commander Worf's quarters. Her heart rate is accelerated and her pulmonary system is taxed." And we think of Star Trek as a utopian ideal.

      The difference is, in Star Trek no one really cared what you were doing, let alone what you were doing for every minute of every day. You could essentially get on with whatever you wanted. Thats why we think its a utopian ideal, an information of total information availability that was free of micro managers.

      Also the Enterprise was essentially a military vessel, but if you didn't like it you could leave.

      --
      Calling someone a "hater" only means you can not rationally rebut their argument.
    26. Re:Let me be the first to say... by Bite+The+Pillow · · Score: 1

      Counselor Troi is in Commander Worf's quarters. Her heart rate is accelerated and her pulmonary system is taxed

      This sounds familiar. But in case it's not, pardon the interruption. Please, continue...

    27. Re:Let me be the first to say... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      ... computer keeps track of every person on the ship ...

      In that universe, a star ship seems to have very few records. I remember it knows when people board/exit the ship and use certain equipment, but otherwise it doesn't save any tracking data. We also don't see bridge officers using the tracking tools to discover who is fucking whom, or sharing personal activities.

    28. Re:Let me be the first to say... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You say Orwellian, but it's also what everybody on Star Trek lives with. The computer keeps track of every person on the ship, their location, and their vital signs, and never seems to require command-level authorization to dispense information. Any kid can query the computer and it'll respond "Counselor Troi is in Commander Worf's quarters. Her heart rate is accelerated and her pulmonary system is taxed." And we think of Star Trek as a utopian ideal.

      Yes, but in Star Trek the leaders are all wise and uncorruptable.

    29. Re:Let me be the first to say... by aristotle-dude · · Score: 1

      This is a popular reaction, and yet I suspect the majority of complainers willing carry a similar cell phone/tracking collar around all day.

      Over my dead body. I have refused to carry a company blackberry. If there is an emergency, my manager can call me on my personal iPhone or email me at home.

      The closest thing to a corporate chain is a company laptop that I sometimes take home and on business trips.

      --
      Jesus was a compassionate social conservative who called individuals to sin no more.
    30. Re:Let me be the first to say... by aristotle-dude · · Score: 1

      You say Orwellian, but it's also what everybody on Star Trek lives with. The computer keeps track of every person on the ship, their location, and their vital signs, and never seems to require command-level authorization to dispense information. Any kid can query the computer and it'll respond "Counselor Troi is in Commander Worf's quarters. Her heart rate is accelerated and her pulmonary system is taxed." And we think of Star Trek as a utopian ideal.

      Naive people might think of it is a utopia but I see it as a socialist dystopia similar to brave new world.

      --
      Jesus was a compassionate social conservative who called individuals to sin no more.
    31. Re:Let me be the first to say... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Their comm badges are tracked, not them. And the only option is to locate the comm badge on demand, not measure heart rate and how enthusiastic the person is. Plus they don't work for money. There are no corporate overlords that treat them as slaves for profit. They work because they want to work. Big diff about being forced to work to survive and work because you want to.

      How the F you got rated +5 ???

    32. Re:Let me be the first to say... by RivenAleem · · Score: 1

      They could be watching a scary movie together, couldn't they?

    33. Re:Let me be the first to say... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "You say Orwellian, but it's also what everybody on Star Trek lives with. The computer keeps track of every person on the ship, their location, and their vital signs, and never seems to require command-level authorization to dispense information. Any kid can query the computer and it'll respond "Counselor Troi is in Commander Worf's quarters. Her heart rate is accelerated and her pulmonary system is taxed." And we think of Star Trek as a utopian ideal."

      They are sailors serving in a military capacity as the crew of a warship. They don't get the same assumption of rights as civilians, and for very good reasons not just related to centuries of military tradition.

    34. Re:Let me be the first to say... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      true. but that is also a world where all the nations of the Earth are long past their differences; the Earth belongs to a planetary federation; no one leaves nasty misogynistic anonymous comments on Admiral Janeway's Twitter feed and the Enterprise is a military workplace.

  7. Misunderstood? by AmiMoJo · · Score: 5, Interesting

    Japanese companies have tried stuff like this before, but not so that bosses can harass their employees. They genuinely want to know how to make the business better by finding out how people actually work... You know, like a good boss should.

    Obviously the potential for abuse is massive, but I think the article author is projecting their own thinking on to this idea. Aside from anything else abusing it would probably be illegal under Japanese law, as it would be in most European countries.

    --
    const int one = 65536; (Silvermoon, Texture.cs)
    SJW, n: "Someone I don't like, and by the way I'm a fuckwit" - AC
    1. Re:Misunderstood? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Japanese companies have tried stuff like this before, but not so that bosses can harass their employees. They genuinely want to know how to make the business better by finding out how people actually work... You know, like a good boss should.

      The best way for a boss to learn how to improve the business is for the boss to get out of their office and walk among the employees (and customers...if that's appropriate for the business). I have seen too many managers over my many years of working spend way too much time in their offices doing "whatever", or constantly on the phone, or constantly buried in email or paperwork. Sometimes they work for a sensless boss themselves.

      If you want to find out what your employees are doing, how the work environment is, or how to improve the business, try talking to the employees on a regular basis...and by regular I don't mean during the annual employee review. get out once a week or even once a day and circulate among the employees. For those with "remote employees" the problem is made difficult by distance, but the once a week staff meeting or once a week person-to-person call along with a personal visit by them or you or both every few months would make sense.

    2. Re:Misunderstood? by Opportunist · · Score: 4, Insightful

      If I had any reason to believe that the device was for improvement of workflow and elimination of redundancy, I'd gladly wear it. The problem is that the way employees are treated today, there is exactly zero reason to believe that was the idea behind it.

      --
      We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
    3. Re:Misunderstood? by Gr8Apes · · Score: 1

      This is the NSA's wet dream come true. There is no "potential" for abuse, it's a given. The only question is who all will abuse it?

      --
      The cesspool just got a check and balance.
    4. Re:Misunderstood? by JustNiz · · Score: 1

      >> They genuinely want to know how to make the business better by finding out how people actually work..

      Then they should start by learning to respect people and actually ask them instead.

    5. Re:Misunderstood? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      There are costs to such a stressful life too.

    6. Re:Misunderstood? by i+kan+reed · · Score: 5, Insightful

      I don't know what world you live in where Japan has a healthy work culture. Abuse of psychology for net harm of workers is considered normal.

    7. Re:Misunderstood? by gothzilla · · Score: 1

      Like what happens in the show Undercover Boss?

    8. Re:Misunderstood? by Gramie2 · · Score: 2

      Agreed I was working for Japanese companies (in Japan) for seven years, and it was soul-destroying.

    9. Re:Misunderstood? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It's abusing by the mere presence, even if it were a dummy employees will take it into account.
      Now, if employees can cheat and work less, it's management problem. There are either too few or too incompetent managers.
      This ideally, in a world where a firm is there to make the best possible business.
      In this world, where work is a way to keep people busy, management is just an interface to the financial system, and all ISO certifications and practiced are aimed at making employees easily replaced drones working for whoever offers more, this is exclusively an instrument for abuse. Saw that coming? LOL read up the short dystopic novel, "mensa" was the name IIRC.

    10. Re: Misunderstood? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You know the intentions of all Japanese companies, but the author is projecting? +5 Insightful?

    11. Re:Misunderstood? by Rossman · · Score: 1

      It's not that simple and I expect you know that. A lot of people view "the bosses" as, on a different level, and they are uncomfortable sharing their real feelings for many reasons including fear of the consequences of doing so. That is why there are shows like Undercover Boss, actually.

      In other cases, workers may not even know what makes them more productive - so it would be hard to actually get this information from them by simply asking them. It is easy for workers to say what makes them feel better, but not what makes them more productive necessarily.

    12. Re:Misunderstood? by jellomizer · · Score: 1

      There are too many people who think being a good boss, is about being tough, and managing people like a machine. En essence the Traditional pre-2000 MBA, where it was designed for managing manufacturing jobs, not intellectual collaborative jobs.

      --
      If something is so important that you feel the need to post it on the internet... It probably isn't that important.
    13. Re:Misunderstood? by AmiMoJo · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Japanese companies are very different to western ones. They consider employees to be assets, and really do consider themselves a family. They are often undervalued because western investors consider high wages to be a weakness and a burden. Japan has the highest number of 80+ year old companies anywhere though, so clearly it works for them.

      Of course not all are that good, TEPCO for example, but Hitachi has a good reputation.

      --
      const int one = 65536; (Silvermoon, Texture.cs)
      SJW, n: "Someone I don't like, and by the way I'm a fuckwit" - AC
    14. Re:Misunderstood? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      How would this fit in with the Joel test:

      http://www.joelonsoftware.com/articles/fog0000000043.html

    15. Re:Misunderstood? by jordanjay29 · · Score: 1

      I'll bet you most American companies won't sing that same tune. They've been heading towards more work and less pay for decades.

    16. Re:Misunderstood? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Ladies and gentlemen, I give you a weeaboo.

    17. Re:Misunderstood? by Princeofcups · · Score: 4, Informative

      I don't know what world you live in where Japan has a healthy work culture. Abuse of psychology for net harm of workers is considered normal.

      Several points:
      1 - These studies usually look at general office workers, like public service or marketing departments, where there is no real way to gauge competence. So people think they need to put on the APPEARANCE of working 12 hour days to advance.
      2 - These workers also SLEEP at their desks. That's right. It's not about actually doing productive work. Many young Japanese workers stay up all night, catch a few winks on the train, and a nap or two at work.
      3 - People often take 2 hour lunch breaks to do shopping or whatever. It's all about arriving before the boss, and leaving after him.
      4 - Respectable tech jobs are no better or worse than they are in the US. People generally work overtime when needed, but at enjoyable work.

      This is the same as the statistics that said that Japanese live ridiculously long. It turns out that the general practice is to lie about age of death to get more government money. There's what people tell you, and reality, and they can be very different.

      --
      The only thing worse than a Democrat is a Republican.
    18. Re:Misunderstood? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      read up the short dystopic novel, "mensa" was the name IIRC

      Manna. You're looking for Manna.

      And its amusing because after the computer became responsible for micromanaging employees, the companies didn't need all those human managers anymore.

    19. Re:Misunderstood? by Opportunist · · Score: 1

      That's the big difference between "eastern" and "western" company culture.

      The main difference being that they have one. Well we do too, but our company culture is more akin to something that you usually find on a petri dish.

      --
      We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
    20. Re:Misunderstood? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "They consider employees to be assets, and really do consider themselves a family."

      Sorry, that's true for a few large Japanese firms who are famous for their lifetime employment policies in the west. But it's not generally true of Japanese companies. Also, a reverence for authority pervades eastern cultures like Japan's and China's. Most workers in the west would revolt against the conditions that workers in those countries endure. (Frankly, I think open trade policy with countries where working conditions are tantamount to slavery have turned out disastrous for Western economies). The use of this sort of spy on your employees technology might not be accepted in the west, but in Japan workers will only grumble about it privately, (western workers might say spinelessly).

    21. Re:Misunderstood? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      > Then they should start by learning to respect people and actually ask them instead.

      Well, whenever you ask employees what would make their job easier and make them more productive, they always answer "gee, I just wish the boss would breathe down my neck a little more," right? :-P

    22. Re:Misunderstood? by kheldan · · Score: 1

      Whether Japanese business models are 'misunderstood' or not isn't relevant. I'm sure that many Japanese bosses are very respectful of their workers, and as you say, treat them like family, but that's not 100% the case and I think you know that. If it was 100% true then technology like this wouldn't have been developed in the first place because it wouldn't be considered necessary. If you don't trust your employees, then what's the point in employing them in the first place? Furthermore, doesn't it make much more sense to judge the value and efficiency of your employees based on their productivity, achievements, and the quality of their work rather than micro-managing them down to the level of how many minutes they spend in the bathroom relieving themselves and recordings of their conversations with other employees? Furthermore I really don't think that people like or want to be treated like 'assets' by their employer, at least not in the sense of being 'property of the Company', but they do like being treated as 'assets' in the sense that they're valuable and appreciated by their employers. Finally who can say they would enjoy being treated like an errant child or a convicted felon where they work, monitored constantly?

      --
      Are YOU using the TOOL, or is the TOOL using YOU? Think about it!
    23. Re:Misunderstood? by dacut · · Score: 1

      Japanese companies [...] genuinely want to know how to make the business better by finding out how people actually work.

      Their website actually bears this out. The good use of this technology will map out how well teams are communicating (which can sometimes make or break a project). We say that inter-team communication is good, and sometimes have meetings to this effect; but this can show whether the company is practicing what it preaches.

      Alas, I share the same concerns as the naysayers. I highly doubt this would be used by any American company in a way other than to penalize individual workers for brief moments of inactivity.

    24. Re:Misunderstood? by Em+Adespoton · · Score: 1

      If I had any reason to believe that the device was for improvement of workflow and elimination of redundancy, I'd gladly wear it. The problem is that the way employees are treated today, there is exactly zero reason to believe that was the idea behind it.

      We're talking about Japan here -- this is someone trying to improve on the Toyota workflow analysis method. In Japan, the company with the best workflow analysis system is the one that wins. This is very likely exactly about workflow improvement and redundancy elimination. Any employer in Japan caught abusing this information would be in serious trouble (read: fired and likely unable to get another management-level job, as well as no longer able to show his face at the same restaurants, clubs, etc.).

      But you're right if you apply this to the USA -- abuse would be 100% guaranteed, even if it was implemented for all the right reasons. In the US, there's not much of a (short term personal) downside to abusing the information from a management perspective.

    25. Re:Misunderstood? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      1. Can I play with my children while I'm at work for 12 hours? Who wants to sleep or watch a movie at the office? That's what my sofa is for thank you very much!
      2. I sleep all night and so far it has been very healthy for me, thank you. If I sleep on the train, then I know I didn't get enough sleeps and that I am exhausted and that's not healthy at all.
      3. I don't fricking want a 2 hour lunch break. 30 minutes is all I need. I want to be home before 6. I don't care about shopping for clothes or whatever during work time and I sure as hell don't want to leave my groceries in my car in summer or in a company fridge (ever). I don't even put my lunch there.
      4. The overtime seems to be "needed" far too often in what I hear from most US companies, where employee seem to enjoy working 50 or 60 hour weeks. Sorry, but I was very productive in my 40 hours already, no need to goof off another 10 or 20 hours a week.

    26. Re:Misunderstood? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Tell me more about the 20-year-long recession they've been suffering through?

    27. Re:Misunderstood? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I know that when you said:

      ...elimination of redundancy...

      This wasn't what you mean, but...

      Why make an employee redundant, when thanks to Virtual Manager you can compile a whole dossier of minor infractions to manufacture a pretext for sacking them (or just harass them to the point where they quit voluntarily).

    28. Re:Misunderstood? by PrimaryConsult · · Score: 1

      The business model / culture is *very* relevant. One of the problems Japan has in business is actually communication: they are afraid to embarass people through direct confrontation (it is actually considered impolite to do so), a tool like this can help a management team identify communication issues where the subtle hints of "actually that's a terrible idea" are getting missed. There is also another beneficial use; there is a suicide problem there, and this could be used to help find suicidal employees and refer them to psychologists before it is too late.

      As for potential abuse, Japanese are by and large more responsible than many other cultures, pretty much across the board. It really is unlikely to be abused there. Other technology people enjoy in Japan that wouldn't work elsewhere:
      -Public toilets with toilet seat warmers (because men can both lift the seat and aim)
      -laundromats with washing machines that provide the soap and also dry the clothes (because people don't put stupid things in washing machines)
      -Vending machines everywhere, even in public streets and alleyways (because no one is going to try and break them to steal goods / cash)
      -High speed escalators (because less able or clumsy people know their own limitations)
      -Trains that run almost perfectly on time (because no one holds train doors for the ass who shouted "hold the door"... or rather, no one would even be arrogant enough to make such a request in the first place)

    29. Re:Misunderstood? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I confirm such device is illegal where i live.

    30. Re:Misunderstood? by Neo-Rio-101 · · Score: 1

      Japanese companies have tried stuff like this before, but not so that bosses can harass their employees.

      Have YOU ever worked in a Japanese company before? No?

      Well I have worked in a few, and I'll tell you, while there are good and bad ones, the majority would LOVE to harass their employees into staying later, working harder, and sacrificing their salary. Then tell them that they're no good, and lucky to even have a job with them, and if they left the company it would be like a betrayal of trust.

      Call up a Japanese headhunter, they could tell you a few stories. They told me quite a few.

      --
      READY.
      PRINT ""+-0
    31. Re:Misunderstood? by kheldan · · Score: 1

      You just pretty much ignored anything I had to say and just launched into another pro-Japanese business practices infomercial.

      --
      Are YOU using the TOOL, or is the TOOL using YOU? Think about it!
    32. Re:Misunderstood? by Rich0 · · Score: 1

      Yup, from my trips to Japan I definitely got the impression that looking busy was key. A coworker who was over there delegated a 15 minute job to somebody and they came back in two hours with it done. Of course, his Japanese colleagues stayed much later and came in much earlier, and often had lots of stuff to show off the next morning that they created after he had left.

    33. Re:Misunderstood? by PrimaryConsult · · Score: 1

      ?? Where did I say anything pro-Japanese business practices?? In any case I will spell it out for you: the purpose of this technology has NOTHING TO DO WITH LACK OF TRUST. And while a safe westerner assumption *would* be abuse of such technology, it is far less likely to occur in Japan due to general cultural differences. You know how some cultures find it normal to stone a woman for adultery and we think it's crazy? A Japanese employer treating his employees like prisoners is equally as crazy.

    34. Re:Misunderstood? by kheldan · · Score: 1

      If it's so great then why do you have Japanese workers who commit suicide over their jobs? How is that 'normal' in any sense of the word? How can any set of circumstances, cultural or otherwise, be a good thing if it's ever causing people to feel the need to end their lives?

      --
      Are YOU using the TOOL, or is the TOOL using YOU? Think about it!
    35. Re:Misunderstood? by PrimaryConsult · · Score: 1

      At what point in any of my posts did I say the corporate culture was better? I was stating it is different, and in the specific context of the culture and technology discussed here, I pointed out how a device capable of tracking communication patterns would be helpful in fixing the deficiencies. In my original post I provided other examples of culturally dependent technology.

      Your posts however have been a long list of reasons why the technology is bad, but they are founded in the assumption that the employer is out to screw the employee. That isn't the case in Japan, just like it wasn't the case in the US from the 50s-80s. Your reasoning also seems to be founded in the assumption that the problems it is attempting to address are not important. I suggested preventing suicide as a counter to that. How is my arguing that "this device could help prevent suicide" translate into me stating that suicide is a good thing? The fact is whenever people fail hard enough at *anything* in Japan (education, work, love, family, or reputation) suicide is seen by many as a respectable out. It is not unique to work, and they are trying different things but reversing over a millenia of tradition is difficult.

    36. Re:Misunderstood? by kheldan · · Score: 1

      I keep saying the technology is bad because it is bad; any technology that makes it easier for people to spy on and monitor people is a misuse of technology, plain and simple, and should be discouraged at every opportunity. You come off as extremely naive: you state " it wasn't the case in the US from the 50s-80s", which is completely wrong, that's when it all started. You seem to believe that Japanese businessmen are so wonderful and would never do anything to improve their bottom line at the expense of their workers or their workers' human rights, which I also dispute, because humans are humans, and regardless of which continent (or island in this case) they're on, there are always those who want to control everything and everyone around them. I see no reason to believe that Japanese bosses are any better in that regard than anyone anywhere else, especially in this day and age where things are so bad everywhere that you find out what people are really like.

      As a side note, I wouldn't at all be surprised if you're one of those people who have no problem with the government and corporations monitoring you 24/7/365 and who says "I have nothing to hide so I have nothing to fear" when anyone asks you why you don't seem to care about your privacy being violated.

      --
      Are YOU using the TOOL, or is the TOOL using YOU? Think about it!
    37. Re:Misunderstood? by PrimaryConsult · · Score: 1

      You love to put words in peoples mouths. I never said Japanese businessmen were wonderful, I said it was not in their culture and cultural pressure would prevent abuses like this from going on for very long. Example: A company tied their timecard system such that you had to smile for a camera in order to clock in (and a note would be sent to the supervisor if the smile wasn't good enough). The press got wind of it and they quickly shitcanned that idea. A similar situation would occur with abuse of this technology. Might I also inform you that Japan is a country that has unions, and while patronage is down now (because they are currently unnecessary), should companies start abusing their workers you can bet they will return in force.

      You make so many assumptions in your posts, including ones about me, that it seems you are only talking to hear yourself speak. I will make one about you: you have not yet graduated college and have never left your continent of origin. You have no concept of people from different cultures having different values and that they would view and use the same tools differently. Continuing to argue with you would be pointless because you aren't even dimly aware of this basic fact of society, and seem to have no interest in exploring it. Your "humans are humans" approach is flawed because humans have created society to suppress the basic urge to take and exploit. In the west we lean towards laws and regulations, in the east they lean towards social pressure. For crying out loud you are lumping a culture where CEOs will kill themselves for tanking a company, with one where CEOs walk away with golden parachutes!

      For the record, I am absolutely NOT a surveillance nut who espouses "if you've done nothing wrong you've nothing to hide". I once had that ignorant attitude in college, and I grew out of it shortly afterward. Hopefully once you finish college your ignorant attitudes will change as well.

  8. WTF by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Fuck that noise....

  9. Good luck with that by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    And the company that uses this is gonna wonder why all their employees suck. Nobody worth anything would put up with this.

    1. Re:Good luck with that by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      And the company that uses this is gonna wonder why all their employees suck. Nobody worth anything would put up with this.

      Are you sure about this? I would say it would be the ones worth nothing that would not put up with this, because it would create demonstrable evidence that they are worth nothing.

      Many workplaces have employees that contribute nearly nothing to the organization, but are given most of the credit, and similarly have employees that contribute much to the organization and are given little credit.

      This is simply a tool to take personality or any other personal biases out of the equation when it comes to helping judge the worth of an employee, it removes the human element and replaces it with measurable data.

    2. Re:Good luck with that by jedidiah · · Score: 1

      It appears to generate completely meaningless metrics that have no real value in evaluating employees or their contributions.

      On the other hand, it's the sort of soul crushing nonsense that you would hope that none of your professional (or even just legal) workers would tolerate. It seems more like something for your illegal sub-minimum wage part time menial laborers.

      --
      A Pirate and a Puritan look the same on a balance sheet.
    3. Re:Good luck with that by The+Cat · · Score: 0

      If the employee is worth nothing, why were they hired in the first place?

      Sounds like a management problem.

  10. Is removing the badge from your shirt a crime? by gurps_npc · · Score: 1

    I mean really, most people would take the badge off before sitting down at their desk.

    --
    excitingthingstodo.blogspot.com
    1. Re:Is removing the badge from your shirt a crime? by mark-t · · Score: 1

      Not a crime, but probably an act that would still get you fired if you did it more than once after being told not to.

    2. Re:Is removing the badge from your shirt a crime? by i+kan+reed · · Score: 1

      1. Put your badge back on
      2. Update resume.

    3. Re:Is removing the badge from your shirt a crime? by Jason+Levine · · Score: 5, Funny

      I can see the reports now:

      Employee report #27135: "Employee arrived in the office, turned on their computer, and then crammed himself into a small drawer in his desk for the duration of the work day. He didn't move during this time except to climb out for meetings. Employee emerged from his desk at the end of the day."

      Employee report #27136: "After speaking with four other employees in an energetic fashion regarding the new tracking systems, these employees went to the restroom and proceeded to flush themselves down the toilet. It might be worth noting that, following this, unknown individuals sent e-mails from these employees computers insulting their managers, most of HR, and the company executives. These unknown individuals then noted that the flushed employees had quit. As the unknown individuals didn't seem to be wearing tracking badges, it is not known what happened to them next. They either left or are living in the ventilation ducts."

      --
      My sci-fi novel, Ghost Thief, is now available from Amazon.com.
    4. Re:Is removing the badge from your shirt a crime? by Psyborgue · · Score: 1

      Thank you for genuinely making me laugh. That's the funniest thing i've read all week.

    5. Re:Is removing the badge from your shirt a crime? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Sounds like reports straight out of the SCP Foundation.
      It just needs a talking vending machine and we are go.

  11. Inevitable outcome by korbulon · · Score: 5, Funny

    "Employees appeared to slowly converge on the toilets throughout the morning, where they remained for a few minutes before departing the building and eventually arriving to the nearest large body of water, where they remained for the rest of the day."

    1. Re: Inevitable outcome by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Employees skipped across the water before sinking and jumped tall buildings in a single bound.

    2. Re:Inevitable outcome by meta-monkey · · Score: 1

      It's sad that first I assumed all the employees jumped in a lake and drowned themselves before realizing you meant they threw their badges in it.

      --
      We don't have a state-run media we have a media-run state.
    3. Re:Inevitable outcome by korbulon · · Score: 1

      It's sad that first I assumed all the employees jumped in a lake and drowned themselves before realizing you meant they threw their badges in it.

      Only in China.

    4. Re:Inevitable outcome by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The funny part is he meant that the badges were flushed down the toilet, not take to a lake and tossed.

    5. Re:Inevitable outcome by meta-monkey · · Score: 1

      Oh. I figured all the employees got together in the bathroom to talk, said "this is bullshit" and proceeded to the nearest lake. Why would the toilets empty into a lake instead of a waste processing facility?

      --
      We don't have a state-run media we have a media-run state.
    6. Re:Inevitable outcome by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      In Japan most sewers lead to Ocean.

    7. Re:Inevitable outcome by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Who said lake? The waste processing facility may be the nearest large body of water.

      I actually didn't fully get the joke yet either, until the other comments helped me understand. But even still, the pre-existing comments missed the point. (Kudos to korbulon... well done with your post.)

      Here's the final clue for the slow (like I was, initially...): Who said that the badges went out a door? (I suggest that they departed the building via water pipes.)

      As for recording conversations for the rest of the day, I suppose they all sounded like super-energetic "ploop"s.

    8. Re:Inevitable outcome by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      ...Why would the toilets empty into a lake instead of a waste processing facility?

      More unregulated corporate cost cutting.

  12. Good luck with getting people to wear those by redmid17 · · Score: 1

    I'd just leave in at my desk in a drawer most likely. If I actually worked for a company that tried to implement that, you can guarantee my resume would be going at either at EOD or lunchtime. If your company is suffering because of lack of productivity, the problem might lie with the workers. It probably lies with their boss. Either way, micromanaging 98% of workers* is counterproductive. Much more effective to hire competent, motivated people in the first place and/or replace the people managing them.

    * I can see this being useful in a low-skill job with extremely high turnover, but that's about it

    1. Re:Good luck with getting people to wear those by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      someone wrote a book on this

      http://marshallbrain.com/manna1.htm

    2. Re:Good luck with getting people to wear those by Opportunist · · Score: 1

      Not even in low paying, high turnover jobs. Why would anyone give half a fuck about being fired from one of those?

      --
      We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
    3. Re:Good luck with getting people to wear those by Fwipp · · Score: 1

      Because you need to pay rent and buy food?

    4. Re:Good luck with getting people to wear those by Jason+Levine · · Score: 2

      Are there sensors that can measure height? If so, you can really mess with them by hanging the badge from the ceiling. "Employee seems to enjoy clinging to the ceiling for the entire workday."

      --
      My sci-fi novel, Ghost Thief, is now available from Amazon.com.
    5. Re:Good luck with getting people to wear those by Opportunist · · Score: 1

      Go across the street, there's another Starbucks hiring.

      --
      We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
    6. Re:Good luck with getting people to wear those by Fwipp · · Score: 1

      Whether they're hiring is different than whether or not they'll hire you.

      "Oh, I see here that you were fired from your previous job. Why is that?"
      "Well, sir, they kept monitoring me to make sure I was working, so I broke company policy and subverted the monitoring system."
      "Thanks for your time, but we don't think you're right for this position."

      High unemployment and low minimum wage work in concert to trap people in wage slavery. Even die-hard libertarians acknowledge that the current economic climate is an employer's market - which means they have five other applicants with less self-respect than you that they can choose from.

    7. Re:Good luck with getting people to wear those by sjames · · Score: 1

      Even in the low skill high turnover positions, I wouldn't be surprised if taking the cost of the badges plus monitoring and giving it to the employee instead improved productivity and reduced turnover.

    8. Re:Good luck with getting people to wear those by bluefoxlucid · · Score: 1

      Tres Roeder: A Sixth Sense for Project Management. Tres Roeder: Stakeholder Management. Read them, then get back to me. You can down Sixth Sense on your kindle in a little over an hour if you're sober.

    9. Re:Good luck with getting people to wear those by Opportunist · · Score: 1

      Well, if you're honest with your prospective employer, you deserve to not get a job.

      Quite frankly, if your job is a hellhole, I don't see any moral obligation to have any semblance of loyalty to your employer.

      --
      We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
    10. Re:Good luck with getting people to wear those by psmears · · Score: 2

      Go across the street, there's another Starbucks hiring.

      Don't have stats for Starbucks, but at another well-known coffee chain, it might not be quite as easy as you think...

    11. Re:Good luck with getting people to wear those by Fwipp · · Score: 1

      I agree, I don't think there's any moral obligation to respect an employer that doesn't respect you, and I think the idea of managers micro-tracking their employees is abhorrent.

      But whether or not it's *moral* to quit or get (intentionally) fired, doing so is a bad decision for many people, especially those who live in/near poverty. Even if they can get another job quickly, there's still very likely to be a period of unemployment (that they can't collect for) in between the two, which is really hard to deal with when you're already living paycheck-to-paycheck. (They also may find it difficult to get enough hours, as new employees are often at the bottom of the totem pole, and only get what nobody else wants.)

      They pretty much have to put up with whatever shit the employer throws at them, as long as it isn't too far out of standard industry conditions.

    12. Re:Good luck with getting people to wear those by SethJohnson · · Score: 1

      I empathize 100% with your reaction to this. I would similarly rebel if asked to participate in such a system.

      Hitachi are not ignorant, however. They sell business systems as a significant part of their offerings. It's likely that this product concept is not so much marketed at enabling micromanaging as much as allowing for bigger-picture mapping of business processes within a complex organization. Though I'm not sure how it captures communication performed via email or telephone.

    13. Re:Good luck with getting people to wear those by mark-t · · Score: 1

      Which doesn't dismiss the respondent's point... they care about being fired from such places because they need money to pay rent and buy food or else they wouldn't immediately be going to try and get a job at another such place.

  13. Is it morally wrong... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    ... to kill the bastard who though this was a good idea?

    1. Re:Is it morally wrong... by Evtim · · Score: 0

      I see what you did there http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/B...

  14. Too much data to be useful by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I can't see these being useful. You get a lot of data from a lot of employees and eventually it's just going to be too much data to be effectively useful, hampering creativity and the ability to solve problems. Then there's the other problem, let's say this works perfectly and only perfect employees are kept, who pays for the employees who can no longer get jobs because they aren't willing to be automatons?

    1. Re:Too much data to be useful by nitehawk214 · · Score: 2

      I can't see these being useful. You get a lot of data from a lot of employees and eventually it's just going to be too much data to be effectively useful, hampering creativity and the ability to solve problems. Then there's the other problem, let's say this works perfectly and only perfect employees are kept, who pays for the employees who can no longer get jobs because they aren't willing to be automatons?

      "Perfect Employees" Of course this this definition of perfect is a bit swayed towards people that show up, sit at their desks, do not converse with their coworkers, and spend the minimum amount of time in the restroom or on lunch break.

      No mention of if the people are actually getting any work accomplished. Talk about inappropriate selection pressure. At best it finds people that are good at subverting the process.

      --
      I'm a good cook. I'm a fantastic eater. - Steven Brust
    2. Re:Too much data to be useful by Opportunist · · Score: 2

      It's just a very good tool to get rid of people you can't get rid of easily any other way. I don't know about your country, but here, if you have been with a company for a long while, it gets increasingly difficult (or expensive) to get rid of you. Being able to "prove" that you're slacking makes it so much easier.

      You needn't put everyone under surveillance. You just have to make everyone think that they are.

      --
      We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
    3. Re:Too much data to be useful by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      OP here, totally meant it to have quotes around it. I've worked in this type of environment where we had 7 minutes for the bathroom, couldn't be early, couldn't be late and couldn't work overtime in a mind numbing call center. This always ends up selecting for the employees with the least amount of ambition and slowly guts whatever it's part of.

    4. Re:Too much data to be useful by Em+Adespoton · · Score: 1

      I can't see these being useful. You get a lot of data from a lot of employees and eventually it's just going to be too much data to be effectively useful, hampering creativity and the ability to solve problems. Then there's the other problem, let's say this works perfectly and only perfect employees are kept, who pays for the employees who can no longer get jobs because they aren't willing to be automatons?

      You're holding the data wrong.

      This isn't supposed to be used for managing individual employees -- it's meant to be used the same way as the old Xerox Parc badges -- to analyse trends, bottlenecks, causal relationships, etc. The consumer of this data isn't the manager, it's his workflow analysis team's statistical modelling system. Sure, you can drill down to indivisuals, but that's not really the important bit. The important bit is more along the lines of answering questions like "How can we organize our employees to maximize functional effectiveness stemming from social interaction? Yoshida Hiro appears to not contribute in meetings and be less productive when others approach his desk; maybe he should get a corner cubicle where he has more privacy to get his work done..." etc.

    5. Re:Too much data to be useful by nitehawk214 · · Score: 1

      Yep, that totally reverses the meaning I understood from your post. We are on the same page here.

      I once worked in an office where headphones were banned because one time one guy failed to answer his phone because he had headphones on. (And the boss was an asshole, but that kind of goes without saying in this case.) The result was everyone putting speakers up and cranking them way up to try to drown out the inane chatter across the too cramped office. Apparently we were children and everyone must be punished because one person made a mistake. This "helicopter bossing" is the same.

      Lucky for my immediate coworkers that they are fans of Tool.

      --
      I'm a good cook. I'm a fantastic eater. - Steven Brust
  15. This wont end well by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    If my use of the wii has taught me anything, its how to game systems with the littlest possible physical work. I will need to start energetically shouting during meetings. Or make a phone app that will shout into the badge for me while its in my pocket.

  16. Microwave it! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I imagine 5 seconds in the office microwave oven should fix it

  17. As predicted by Marshall Brain? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    Fiction becomes reality:

    http://marshallbrain.com/manna1.htm

  18. patent time! by swschrad · · Score: 2

    Hitachi has invented the RoboToady. now, the only reason to keep brownnoses around is to fill out the foursome at golf.

    --
    if this is supposed to be a new economy, how come they still want my old fashioned money?
  19. Badge Meets Clippy? by handy_vandal · · Score: 3, Funny

    "It looks like you're trying to Fire A Subordinate. Would you like me to call Security?"

    --
    -kgj
  20. Manna by tlhIngan · · Score: 5, Informative

    It seems like more people should take a read of Marshall Brain's Manna, a book about this very thing. (Online version).

    It goes into what could happen (and given current economics, the rest of us are housed in tiny apartments to keep the away from the owners). And yet, it also details an alternative view where automation is NOT shunned, but instead used to fulfill what people originally dreamed them to do - do all the chores while the humans relax, or speculate, or invent, or do other things.

    Quite an informative read if you have a couple of hours.

    1. Re:Manna by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      yup. first thing i thought of too.
      i only read the story a few months ago.
      freaky how fast reality catches up.
      -dywolf

    2. Re:Manna by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Quite an informative read if you have a couple of hours.

      It may be interesting (I haven't read it), but fictional stories cannot be INFORMATIVE. It may be wrong, or it may be right, but it is proof of nothing. The author can make the story go where ever they want.

    3. Re:Manna by meta-monkey · · Score: 3, Insightful

      I read Manna a few years back, and I think about it often as I ponder our increasingly automated world. Google's self-driving vehicles are going to destroy so many jobs. At first, sure, they'll be required to have a person sit in them in case anything goes wrong, but once the technology proves itself, they'll get rid of that requirement. And don't think they won't...those with the gold will get rid of that rule because it cuts into their profits.

      Eventually, no more truck drivers. No more UPS guys. No more mail carriers. No more taxi cab drivers. No more pizza delivery boys.

      I don't know how many millions of jobs that would wipe out, but what will those people do?

      And the thing is, it could go either way, just like Manna. But in the US, we know exactly which way it would go. And that's scary, because when people get hungry because they have no jobs, they don't stay hungry. They tend to get out the pitchforks and torches.

      --
      We don't have a state-run media we have a media-run state.
    4. Re:Manna by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      but fictional stories cannot be INFORMATIVE

      ?? why take such a narrow definition? nobody else does:
      informative adjective 1. providing useful or interesting information.

    5. Re:Manna by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      They tend to get out the pitchforks and torches.

      I've never seen that happen - have you? are you counting the occupy movement? Regarding jobs, I think that any job that can be automated should be, it's silly to think that we have people sitting in long-haul trucks day after day for their working lives, pulling levers and pressing pedals, operating heavy machinery through winding roads in all kinds of weather... Those aren't the jobs we need to protect. How about replacing those jobs with teachers + professors? artisan craftsman? artists, musicians, entertainers, all sorts of services? I remember when my city used to clean up the parks - they stopped years ago.

    6. Re:Manna by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      i only read the story a few months ago.
      freaky how fast reality catches up.


      The story was written 11 years ago.

    7. Re:Manna by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I liked the story. However I felt the cut over to the alternative was rather bolted on and contrived. A better cut over would have been the existing population living in the dorms figuring out how to exploit the robots and creating a better society. I think it would have been a much more satisfying story. It also left huge dangling loose ends as to what happened to the US?

      Idea was fairly sound, execution a bit rushed.

    8. Re:Manna by meta-monkey · · Score: 4, Interesting

      I was thinking old school, like the French Revolution.

      I agree, I certainly don't approve of inefficiency for the sake of menial jobs. I'm not suggesting we throw our shoes into the Google car's engine.

      I would love to see those people re-educated as artists, craftsman, teachers, whatever. And that's basically what the second half of Manna is about. My point is that we're far more likely to wind up with the first half of Manna. The very wealthy own the robots, unemploy the poor, and the poor are corralled into cheap public housing to sit and wait to die. In America, today, what'll happen when the robots take the driving jobs, and the Siris and Deep Blues take the call center jobs is the poor will be left to rot with their food stamps and unemployment benefits cut, and they'll be told it's their fault for being poor because they're too lazy. That is a dystopia to which I am not looking forward.

      And it's sad, because in America TODAY we could basically guarantee everybody three squares, a small apartment and healthcare for less than what we spend on a war. Those people would then be free to better themselves without worrying about starving. But that will never happen, because the government is bought and paid for by the wealthy, and the wealthy want an underclass of wage slaves scrambling over each other for menial jobs.

      --
      We don't have a state-run media we have a media-run state.
    9. Re:Manna by meta-monkey · · Score: 1

      Well, it was only a short story. Still, I thought it was prescient, and I think the abrupt cut served to really show the stark contrast between what would happen if the wealthy own the product of robot labor or if the masses share it.

      And I thought they told you what happened to America. America winds up as a feudal shithole, with a small minority owning everything but with basically no cultural or scientific advances once they're taken care of, and the poor basically in prison.

      And it's happening now, and we know exactly which way America is going.

      --
      We don't have a state-run media we have a media-run state.
    10. Re:Manna by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Eventually, no more truck drivers. No more UPS guys. No more mail carriers. No more taxi cab drivers. No more pizza delivery boys.

      So you presume that the delivery trucks will come with a little robot to bring the packages to your door and leave a "sorry we missed you" sticker after ringing the bell once?

    11. Re:Manna by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I've never seen that happen - have you?

      Tunisia, the Arab Spring, the French Revolution.
      And to a lesser degree, yeah, the occupy movement if you consider "pitchforks and torches" to be a metaphor. If the masses are unhappy, you get a popular uprising. Sometimes they just shout and try and get their voice heard, sometime they lop off heads. It kind of depends on the situation.

      those aren't the jobs we need to protect. How about replacing those jobs with teachers + professors? artisan craftsman? artists, musicians, entertainers, all sorts of services?

      This part here is wisdom though. Lashing out at the self-driving car because its "destroys jobs" is like lashing out at the backhoe because we used to employ dozens of people with shovels for a week. This is progress. It's making the world a better place. There is an infinite amount of work to be done in science, art, and even politics.

    12. Re:Manna by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      What of parables?

    13. Re:Manna by Khashishi · · Score: 1

      Fiction can be informative when they stop being fiction.

    14. Re:Manna by Khashishi · · Score: 1

      s/public housing/private prisons (paid for with public money)/

    15. Re:Manna by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Google's robots already drive the cars. You do the actual driving, and they tell you were to go "Take right at the fork." "Turn left in 100 feet" etc.

      Soon people won't be able to drive without one of those. They'll get lost in the city without their smartphone telling them where to go.

      Maybe the city will take down the street names signs and directions, because google with automatically reflow the traffic, so you might get home sooner, but seldom go the same way, and so you'll be lost without it (or without your Verizon/ATT/Sprint/TMobile data plan).

    16. Re:Manna by langelgjm · · Score: 1

      Accidentally moderated redundant, meant to give you an insightful... posting to remove!

      --
      "Anyone who [rips a CD] is probably engaging in copyright infringement." - David O. Carson
    17. Re:Manna by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      But that will never happen, because the government is bought and paid for by the wealthy, and the wealthy want an underclass of wage slaves scrambling over each other for menial jobs.

      Well, what's the point of being wealthy if you don't have anyone poor to compare your wealth against? What's the point of owning a private jet or a luxury yacht, if everybody else has access to one too?

      (captcha: tailored)

    18. Re:Manna by nitehawk214 · · Score: 1

      Why re-educate? I know plenty of extremely talented musicians, painters, brewers and other skilled people that are doing other things because they want a stable paycheck. The worst part is, many of these people are working jobs they do not enjoy because they need the pay.

      --
      I'm a good cook. I'm a fantastic eater. - Steven Brust
    19. Re:Manna by Bite+The+Pillow · · Score: 1

      Why should more people read it? The people who would learn from it are most likely already aware of the dangers, or at least open to it. The people who most need to learn from it would disagree with any obvious points, and possibly not see any subtle points.

      It can't be informative as a work of fiction if the reader does not want to be informed, and the audience will suffer a self-selection bias where the people who most need to read it won't.

      Your comment is exactly the guy with an outdated sweater vest and pipe at a dinner party who insists, "Well you absolutely must read [author].." with an explanation of all of the dazzling insights the author has and all of the wonderful things to be learned, but you're talking to a chihuahua. The audience you mean will not learn anything from this if they read it, if it were read to them, if they were strapped in to a chair to listen to the book on tape, or if it were tattooed on their eyeballs. I applaud you for recognizing a hint of the plot of something you read, but that's really all that happened here.

    20. Re:Manna by RivenAleem · · Score: 1

      Do you know how many jobs were eliminated when the horse-drawn plough was invented? What about the number of lumber workers jobs lost when the chainsaw was invented.

      The industrial revolution caused major upset as machines replaced humans. Why is this any different? Now we have more scientists, doctors and artists than we did then. There will be a period of unrest, but given a generation (or less if people cross-train) it will rebalance in a new state, waiting for the next upset.

      It is like in Willie Wonka (not sure if it's in both versions) where the father of the family lost his job screwing on toothpaste caps, only to get another one maintaining the robot that did the job in place of him.

    21. Re:Manna by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It is like in Willie Wonka (not sure if it's in both versions) where the father of the family lost his job screwing on toothpaste caps, only to get another one maintaining the robot that did the job in place of him.

      You are making a assumption that many economists make. However, it is an incorrect assumption.

      EVENTUALLY everything will be automated. What jobs are left? None. They are automated. Long term the value of human labor goes to 0. Productivity goes to infinity basically. 1 guy can run a fleet. Instead of needing a fleet of people to run it.

      In the movie they skipped the other 20 people doing the same job as the father. Did they all get jobs fixing the machine? You missed the fact the grandfather was so depressed he stayed in a bed for 20 years because he lost his job from the wonka factory because he had been replaced by cheap imported labor and automated machines. He only got out of bed to see that 'wonderful' factory again.

  21. my company doesn't need this by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Funny

    We don't need this because we trust our employees to be adults who get their work done. That's why we give them the breathing room they need and only burden them with daily standups and mandatory pair programming in our open bull-pen office. With this type of dynamic, collaborative work environment we are able to attract top talent.

  22. Microwave by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    That thing is going in the microwave as soon as the boss is out of sight.

    "I don't know what happened, I was just sitting here eating my lunch.."

  23. Translation error by DoofusOfDeath · · Score: 1

    I think Hitachi goofed up their translation. "Perfect" is not the correct word.

  24. Obstruct/Corrupt the data by themaddogmedic · · Score: 1

    Step 1: Bring your friendly dog to work. Step 2: Distribute treats to all coworkers Step 3: Attach badge to dog collar. Step 4: Enjoy bosses' consternation! ... Step 5: (probable) .... clean out desk & look for other job.

  25. Hilarious by rebelwarlock · · Score: 1

    Never have I been happier to be an independent contractor working at home. I know there are "solutions" to people like me already (like the oDesk spyware crap), but thusfar, I've been able to avoid them.

  26. This should be fun... by shemyazaz · · Score: 2

    I work for one of the American Hitachi divisions. God help me if they decide to force them on us.

  27. Re:Mean While, In the US... by captjc · · Score: 2

    It will be hailed as the greatest invention since the Blackberry. All those useless drones who aren't working every second of their 40 hours and take more than their "fair" share of the free coffee will finally pay! I can even be used to make sure people get truly "fair" pay, "You were here for 50 hours this week but you only really 'worked' for 39 of them...no overtime for you!"

    I can see this not only becoming standard in most workplaces and probably even made mandatory in a few states (with appropriate exceptions for executive level management).

    --
    Slow Down Cowboy! It's been 1 hour, 47 minutes since you last successfully posted a comment
  28. Cue people starting to "work" at working by Opportunist · · Score: 3, Interesting

    No, I don't mean "doing their job". I mean they will start to game the system. People who want to slack off have been very inventive and creative when it comes to slacking, so this will be no different. They will come up with ways to tweak that. Don't want to go to a boring meeting? Let a coworker take your badge along. He'll do it for you next time and everyone's happy.

    Of course this does not increase productivity, but rather decrease it for the necessary overhead involved to game the system. But hey, I didn't come up with the idea, management gets what management wants, and if they want me to spend time fucking with their spying system rather than work so my "characteristic figures" look the way they should, I give them what they want.

    For reference, see the success of the "how many keystrokes did the programmer make today" for measuring the productivity of programmers creating code. It's not that much different from this junk.

    --
    We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
    1. Re:Cue people starting to "work" at working by houghi · · Score: 1

      What is often overseen that the manager ALSO has a job and that is weirly enough to manage his staff. This is not the same as to monitor or even to command or overlook.

      The manager gets the job and it is said that he is now the manager of department Foo. However the targets seldom reflect this. Instead of getting targets about managing, he gets targets about productivity. Often THEY are micro-managed as well.

      Some just become managers, because it is time and often they are completely wrong for the function. The best managers I had were those who had the least idea about how I did things. Those would be looking HOW to get answers I was seeking. From customers, departments or other sources. That way I did what I was good at and he did what he was good at.

      The worst were those that had a much better knowledge and said 'I will do it myself.' They did not spend any time managing. I was unable to learn how to do it myself, so I was wasting company time as well.

      --
      Don't fight for your country, if your country does not fight for you.
    2. Re:Cue people starting to "work" at working by psithurism · · Score: 1

      they will start to game the system...how many keystrokes did the programmer make today

      I was thinking the exact same thing: I'm in front of my computer typing furiously right now. I kinda wish I had a chip to record this moment of what looks like extreme productivity.

  29. Needs more automation by meta-monkey · · Score: 3, Funny

    It needs a speaker, too.

    "Attention worker #47293, you have exceeded your pooping allotment for the day. Exit the stall and proceed back to your desk. Thank you for your compliance."

    --
    We don't have a state-run media we have a media-run state.
    1. Re:Needs more automation by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Imagine the possiblities! The boss will also know who is sleeping with who, and how much time they spend in the janitors closet!

    2. Re:Needs more automation by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "Attention worker #47293, you have exceeded your pooping allotment for the day. Exit the stall and proceed back to your desk. Thank you for your compliance."

      "But, but... I haven't finished wiping yet... :'(

    3. Re:Needs more automation by wasteoid · · Score: 1

      I could give two shits about the new policy, but since I need the badge to open the toilet, I can't.

    4. Re:Needs more automation by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You don't need a badge for this, the high end standalone public stools in downtown Malaysia (3rd world country) already automatically open its sliding doors after 15 minutes. You have to pay a few bucks for this privilege.

      I'm sure corporations can adopt this and charge it to the payroll tax they bill to the employees anyway...

  30. At least there is no cameras by Subgenius · · Score: 4, Interesting

    True story: My CEO (US company, California) tasked me to install 3 motion-detection CCTV cameras at all of our remote staff locations (3 part timers, in their homes, in eastern Europe), and then review the footage daily to determine if they 'were at their posts' during working hours (and did not take 'too many' breaks during the day). Of course, the reason for this was to 'make sure we are getting what we paid for.' I'm glad this device was not around last year (or will be very expensive THIS year).

    No, I did not install the cameras, I just let the issue die. (still have a job, too).

    --
    Toil is Stupid. Don't be Stupid.
    1. Re:At least there is no cameras by ducomputergeek · · Score: 2

      Last two companies most of the dev staffs have worked from home. Some have been in other states. But it was software and we could track things like did we make milestones, how often and what did they check into the repository, etc.. They were, however, all salaried. Frankly I never cared if it took them 4 hours or 8 hours to solve a problem or add feature so long as it was delivered on time according to what the project needed.

      The other rule was quite simple: If the phone rings between 9AM and 5PM office time you'd better damn well answer it. I'm not calling you to chat I'm calling you because something is broke and needs to be urgently fixed. And I stuck to that. if I wanted a status update I'd send an email.

      --
      "The problem with socialism is eventually you run out of other people's money" - Thatcher.
    2. Re:At least there is no cameras by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I see a lot of self serve froyo shops have those.

    3. Re:At least there is no cameras by cusco · · Score: 1

      If you still want to take a company-paid vacation in eastern Europe let the remote staff move the cameras to wherever they want. As long as they point it at their workstation often enough that you can have a few screen shots to give management it can look out the window at traffic almost all day (triggering the motion detector). Have to admit, that is one of the dumbest management brainstorms that I've heard of in a while.

      --
      "Think about how stupid the average person is. Now, realise that half of them are dumber than that." - George Carlin
    4. Re:At least there is no cameras by bluefoxlucid · · Score: 1

      Froyo is old, get a better phone.

    5. Re:At least there is no cameras by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Last two companies most of the dev staffs have worked from home. Some have been in other states. But it was software and we could track things like did we make milestones, how often and what did they check into the repository, etc.. They were, however, all salaried. Frankly I never cared if it took them 4 hours or 8 hours to solve a problem or add feature so long as it was delivered on time according to what the project needed.

      The other rule was quite simple: If the phone rings between 9AM and 5PM office time you'd better damn well answer it. I'm not calling you to chat I'm calling you because something is broke and needs to be urgently fixed. And I stuck to that. if I wanted a status update I'd send an email.

      Yep. Too many times the bean-counters subscribe to the "hamburger grinder" theory of productivity where the employees are essentially nothing but machines. Run them longer, run them harder, you get more output.

      Creative jobs aren't like that. You cannot simply equate time-in-chair to productivity or even linearly associate time or activity to productivity any more than you can make a printer print faster by tugging on the paper.

      Actually, even hamburger grinders have their limits. Crank one up to about 4500 RPM and what comes out will be more like cooked shredded meat than raw hamburger. Don't allow them downtime for maintenence and your customers are going to be complaining about the metal fragments in their dinner.

    6. Re:At least there is no cameras by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Don't I wish I worked for you.
      My first two jobs permanently taught me that the moment work knows I have a cellphone and not a landline, I am permanently "available" at no extra cost to my employer, and any lack of answering would get me a "Why were you ditching work *again* last night" as opposed to a "yeah, we tried calling but you weren't there"

    7. Re:At least there is no cameras by qazsedcft · · Score: 1

      May I ask which country in Eastern Europe it was? I'm pretty sure in the EU that is completely illegal.

  31. Read this! by Impy+the+Impiuos+Imp · · Score: 1

    I assume the sensitive accelerometer analyzer can tell the difference between subtle movements while talking (hey, you could probably read body like mouth reading! Haha nobody can patent that now!) and jerking off.

    --
    (-1: Post disagrees with my already-settled worldview) is not a valid mod option.
    1. Re:Read this! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Damn, I was hoping for 'most active employee of the month'

  32. Awesome by bhlowe · · Score: 1

    Wow. As a software/hardware product.. that is freaking cool.... No, I wouldn't want to wear one.. But the analytic side of it is fascinating. You could also tie it in with facial recognition, so that if the employee removes the badge, that would be known and reported too. Your slacking off days are numbered!!

    1. Re:Awesome by cusco · · Score: 1

      Where I would like to see this used is animal behavior studies. Attach them to social animals such as chickens or cattle and see how they actually interact through the day.

      --
      "Think about how stupid the average person is. Now, realise that half of them are dumber than that." - George Carlin
  33. doesn't take into account human nature by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    That makes the silly assumption that capital wouldn't just keep 100% of gains due to automation while leaving labor to starve in the street, and berating them for being lazy and cluttering up the gutters.

    1. Re:doesn't take into account human nature by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      That's exactly what happens in the first half of the story, actually. The money concentrates at the top, consolidating in the hands of the few, while everybody else is shoved into tiny publicly-funded housing in abject poverty. Mind you, I find the second half too farfetched to be remotely believable, but the first half aligns with your points exactly.

    2. Re:doesn't take into account human nature by Khashishi · · Score: 1

      I assume that the plutocrats made a cost-benefit decision and decided that a sedate population living in terrafoam was safer than a rebellious, starving society.

  34. I Want Out by Bob9113 · · Score: 1

    How screwed up has our society become when it makes cheesy 80's hair metal seem substantive and poignant?

  35. Social butterflies by wiredlogic · · Score: 1

    How is it supposed to determine that the people who spend half their day socializing aren't doing any productive work?

    --
    I am becoming gerund, destroyer of verbs.
    1. Re:Social butterflies by GameboyRMH · · Score: 1

      It's not supposed to, they're making it CXO-compatible!

      Cheat code: Boost your WorkerScore by playing the sound of a golf ball being hit from your computer.

      --
      "When information is power, privacy is freedom" - Jah-Wren Ryel
  36. Com Badge by rossdee · · Score: 1

    I guess the Governor of New Jersey could use these things - he has absolutely no idea what goes on in his office.

  37. Announcing the Hitachi BM by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Because the workplace wasn't shitty enough already.

  38. Solution by failedlogic · · Score: 1

    Putting this in a Faraday cage is sure to generate a report "Employee is well shielded from management and employees. Recommend promotion to CEO."

  39. Coming to a government agency near you by jasper160 · · Score: 1

    I am sure some DHS/TSA/NSA/Dirty Cop would love to see these fitted in every vehicle, back pack, and on you.

    --
    No good deed goes unpunished.
    1. Re:Coming to a government agency near you by Opportunist · · Score: 1

      Go ahead and listen in, I dare you. I had Chili for dinner and I'm about to give you my best shot!

      --
      We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
  40. You got it all wrong, this is GOOOOOD. by aix+tom · · Score: 2

    After all, it's the first step of automating management, and replacing all that management types with a bunch of shell scripts.

    And who gets to write those shell-scripts in the end? Who? Exactly, we, the techies.

    So it may be a slight inconvenience for a time, but in the end we will only have to do what the shell scripts we wrote ourselves are telling us to do. Sounds pretty much like paradise to me.

    1. Re:You got it all wrong, this is GOOOOOD. by genner · · Score: 3, Funny

      After all, it's the first step of automating management, and replacing all that management types with a bunch of shell scripts.

      And who gets to write those shell-scripts in the end? Who? Exactly, we, the techies.

      So it may be a slight inconvenience for a time, but in the end we will only have to do what the shell scripts we wrote ourselves are telling us to do. Sounds pretty much like paradise to me.

      Yes but will those shell scripts be written with vi or emacs?

  41. American Beauty... by seoras · · Score: 1

    ...would have been a whole lot different if Lester Burnham had been wearing one of these.
    Lester: "I jack off in the office toilet everyday"
    Catbert HR guy: "Yes we know Lester. You're ID badge registered the excessive calories you burned while in the head and it's mic picked up you talking dirty to your imaginary girl friend during your cubicle 'workout'. The company doesn't allow wankers at your pay grade and level, only my level and higher. Your fired."

  42. Everyday the internet does it when i think it cant by Infestedkudzu · · Score: 1

    I'm at a loss for words.

  43. WHO will be this generations's Zorro?!! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    combining a traditionally favorite /. troll topic with tales of cubical revolt, I present : The Mad Shitter

  44. Often overlooked with 'globalization'.... by rts008 · · Score: 1

    Japanese companies are very different to western ones.

    That's an important point here, and often overlooked.

    I see that as the side effects of Japan having a sometimes very different culture and social norms/values than in the west hemisphere.

    What works well in Japan, may not work here in the USA, but that works both ways.

    I foresee severe backlash in the US workforce if this tech is attempted here. On top of all the other stuff causing unrest in this country, something like this could tip the balance for a revolt of some sorts.

    (Not singling out Japan, just trying to stay on-topic.)

    --
    Down With Slashdot BETA!!! I've been around the corner and seen the oliphant; you can only abuse me from your perspecti
  45. I wonder what management will think by shellster_dude · · Score: 1

    ...when their virtual boss tokens get hacked by their competitor or APT.

    1. Re:I wonder what management will think by Opportunist · · Score: 1

      Not to mention that they sure contain a lot of nifty hardware...

      --
      We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
  46. Snitch by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    More than a boss it's a snitch.
    Not sure how legal it is though.

  47. You can't measure what really matters by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    I'm a software architect. I design and write code for tools and infrastructure that other developers use to build applications. Session management, build tools and automation, stuff to build application access control on top of, etc. I am at my most productive when I am sitting quietly, staring into the middle distance. Or sometimes when I have struggled with a design issue, rejecting multiple mediocre solutions. Then I hop in the shower, and *the* solution pops into my head.

    Measure that. Go ahead, I dare you to try.

    1. Re:You can't measure what really matters by Opportunist · · Score: 2

      I do measure just that. It's actually easy.

      I don't tend to micro manage my teams. First of all, I'm lazy and I sure as hell have something more important to do than tell a programmer how to type. Second, they hate it and I can sympathize, I hated it too when I was still in programming. And third, they're adults, I don't see the necessity to treat them like kids who don't know how to work.

      I give them a project and I expect to hear from them when they need resources or when some department gives them troubles. Other than that I expect them to report back when they're done.

      They meet their deadline, they do fine. They don't meet their deadlines, they don't do fine. What's hard to measure about that?

      Stuff like that is only hard to measure if you insist in micro management and having some arbitrary performance figure for your monthly report. My solution is to simply make up a performance figure so the powers that are are happy.

      --
      We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
  48. Alternately... by Somebody+Is+Using+My · · Score: 3, Informative

    The virtual boss will see - contrary to what the eyes of the real bosses tell them - employees who never get up from their desks, never go to the bathroom, and never hang around in the break room... because those badges are left behind on the desk all the time whenever the employees get up from their desks, go to the bathroom, and hang around the break room.

    Because employees will quickly learn to "game" the system, rendering the whole thing useless.

    Hell, most of the time those badges aren't even necessary to get into the office, since somebody inevitably will open the door for you. And inevitably the employees are going to discover that their badges are ratting them out.

    Not that any of this matters. This is just another way for managers to collect "metrics" on their staff, to prove with the magic of numbers that their staff is working, rather than - oh, I don't know - looking to see if the work is actually getting done. But the latter would actually require the managers to understand what their reports are doing, and that requires knowledge and effort on their part. Better to just rely on computers to create a useless spreadsheet that they can point to during the yearly reviews.

    1. Re:Alternately... by Opportunist · · Score: 1

      That's basically my gripes with management. When someone only cares about creating some magic numbers (called "performance figures") you know that he doesn't know shit about his job. Else he could do it without magic numbers and actually understand a report.

      And don't gimme that "but he doesn't have time to read it" shit. Then sit down and take the time to read it instead of playing golf, you slacking sponge!

      --
      We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
  49. Or retain the ones who feel undervalued. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Some people wouldn't mind the extra visibility.

  50. Yet another proximity detection device? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    And what about using these proximity detection technologies to do something else than just facilitating harassment?
    Oh wait, someone already did it! http://www.sociopatterns.org/

  51. It's not as horrible as it seems. by aaronsb · · Score: 2

    I know this might sound a little crazy, but I don't think it's designed for the whole workforce to wear. It's used during a study in a large environment to see how the workforce performs tasks. You assign it to a number of statistically neutral individuals, and they represent the workforce as a whole. An analyst (or consultant) determines work patterns and can charge the company $10,000 to move the water cooler from one side of the office to the other to promote efficiency in movement, or even relocate a team within a building so they don't have to walk across the building to interact with them.

    Sure, it's orwell in a can, but it's not designed for every day use. Can you even imagine the nightmare of tracking those on people that don't want to wear them?

    1. Re:It's not as horrible as it seems. by mbone · · Score: 1

      Can you even imagine the nightmare of tracking those on people that don't want to wear them?

      Sure. Do you know how call centers work? Having your actions tracked is part of the job. Don't follow the system, and you won't have a job.

    2. Re:It's not as horrible as it seems. by Opportunist · · Score: 1

      What nightmare? All you need is to tweak the average call center software a bit. If there's a market for it, rest assured you'll find some company who will gladly develop it for you. The rest is the same as the usual call center readiness surveillance.

      --
      We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
    3. Re:It's not as horrible as it seems. by strikethree · · Score: 1

      Sure, it's orwell in a can, but it's not designed for every day use.

      Sure, the technology behind nuclear power can be used to make high-powered explosives but it is not designed for that.

      Sure, the technology for CALEA could be used for spying on all Americans, but it is note designed for that.

      Sure, RICO could be abused, but it is not designed for that.

      Wheeee. I could go on and on. :)

      --
      "Someone needs to talk to the tree of liberty about its ghoulish drinking problem." by ohnocitizen
  52. Oh yeah! by Arkan · · Score: 1

    Micro-manage me like one of your Foxconn (girl) employee!

  53. Wow by riis138 · · Score: 1

    I don't know anyone who would put up with this. Even from a management standpoint, the cost this would require to implement would far outweigh the benefits.

    --
    Somewhere, something incredible is waiting to be known. -Carl Sagan
  54. Old article. Product is not all useless by parallel_prankster · · Score: 1

    I am surprised no one has said this so far. The earliest link for this is from 2007 - www.techdigest.tv/2007/06/hitachis_new_bu.html This product seem to be here - www.hitachi.com/design/field/solution/microscope/ It will become obviously illegal in many countries for companies to force your employees to wear this so I dont think what the above CNN article mentions is what this product will be advertised for at all. It is not a bad idea, I just think the scope of privacy abuse is huge. So, I think, one way this product could be used is by making it optional for people and making them aware of all the things it is recording. I mean, either have a turn off button or a way for you to leave it at your desk. I can see that this is a good way to measure which organizations within a company talk to which ones. It wont help in tele-conferences etc, it can add to that data though.

    1. Re:Old article. Product is not all useless by Opportunist · · Score: 1

      Oh yeah. You're free to wear it at leisure and only if you want to.

      Huh? Why Bob got promoted and not you? Well, because he was so much more productive. We could measure it with his little tracking bug. You didn't want to wear it, remember? But by no means we don't want you to pressure you into wearing it, it's your free choice.

      --
      We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
  55. Meet the New Boss by rlwhite · · Score: 1

    Same as the old boss.

  56. Might as well get robots by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    This what they really want

    1. Re:Might as well get robots by Opportunist · · Score: 1

      You nuts? When a robot breaks down you have to fix it or buy a new one. When a worker burns out, you simply dump them and grab the next one off the street for free.

      --
      We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
    2. Re:Might as well get robots by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You nuts? When a robot breaks down you have to fix it or buy a new one. When a worker burns out, you simply dump them and grab the next one off the street for free.

      That's only because of stupid government regulations. If there were no environment regulations, we will see robot making factories popping up all over the place. Environmental regulations also prevent companies from just dumping their broken robots down the river to save costs.

      And if government stop regulating the roads and "public" spaces, we can let spare robots loose on the streets to be picked up like workers would. Hey, if I used my own money to build a robot horde, it's my goddammit my RIGHT to unleash that robot horde into the city!

  57. This will work until by Registered+Coward+v2 · · Score: 1

    the first discovery request. The recordings and data would be a potential goldmine for attorneys. Not just employment cases but criminal as well. So, Mr. CEO, how do you explain your employees talking about how you were able to fix prices? How about your admin talking about the stock tips you get from friends?

    --
    I'm a consultant - I convert gibberish into cash-flow.
  58. This Is Sort Of Already Happening by sabinelr · · Score: 1

    It's called phone support. I worked for a company which, while unnamed here, makes you think of electricity. The phone support we did was for a product which, while unnamed here, makes you think of never leaving the office. At the beginning of the shift, you had to put on the phone headset and sign in to the phone. You couldn't sign in early, and you only had a couple of minutes of grace time if your "watch" was inaccurate by a couple of minutes. Breaks were generated by some computer program and had to be followed exactly. The company which farmed out the phone support function, which while unnamed here, makes you think of something extremely small and cushiony, did not want to pay extra for overtime, so if you didn't sign out of the phone after exactly 8 hours you would get yelled at. If you had to suddenly visit the restroom, you had to track down a shift lead and request to go out of ready, and you were at that person's mercy, depending on call volume or the shift lead's own fear of getting in trouble.
    Now tell me if this is a substantial new development.

  59. A good argument for unions by mbone · · Score: 4, Insightful

    I cannot imagine a better argument for unionization than such gizmos.

    1. Re:A good argument for unions by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yep, I can't believe how anti-union people in the USA are nowadays. Evidently all the lessons of the age of robber barons have been lost.

      You'd better do something to organize against your employer. They're organized against you.

    2. Re:A good argument for unions by Sir_Eptishous · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Right, and they(the 1%) know that.

      That is why they have been successfully dismantling the unions in the US and the rest of the world since the 1980's.
      Unless more of this information comes to the forefront of American culture and Media, it will slide in "under the radar" and then it will be too late to bring back unions.

      --
      We play the game with the bravery of being out of range
  60. End police corruption by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Tomorrow, with this badge.

  61. A solution in search of a problem... by hey! · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Years ago I worked on early mobile field work software on GPS enabled PDAs. Periodically I'd take an installation and training trip so I could hear the stakeholder concerns. One of the concerns I frequently heard from field workers in private was that the boss would be tracking their movements every moment of the day, and he'd use this to go after workers he didn't like. This was new stuff, and it had a bit of a creepiness factor for people who'd never used a computer in their life.

    My response was always this: What would *you* do if you wanted to show someone is goofing off instead of working? You'd go to the site where he claimed to have done the work and see if it actually got done. It's what you'd do, it's what I'd do, and it's what your boss does if he has any common sense. If he doesn't, *he's* the one who's goofing off. Field work is hard; traveling around and keying a few bogus entries is much easier, and would be sufficient to fool the system.

    With a few exceptions like security guards, you don't need technology to tell if a worker is doing his job. You need to manage your employees by measuring the things you expect them to accomplish.

    We are far from having a technological substitute for intelligent supervision. Anything that falls short of that is just pandering to management laziness.

    --
    Post may contain irony: discontinue use if experiencing mood swings, nausea or elevated blood pressure.
    1. Re:A solution in search of a problem... by Opportunist · · Score: 3, Insightful

      We are far from having a technological substitute for intelligent supervision.

      The cynic in me would say that you pretty much analyzed why we need that technological substitute.

      --
      We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
    2. Re:A solution in search of a problem... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Gaming the field tracking system? USPS package delivery tracking site says "no one at the business, notice left", and no notice, no one rang the doorbell? Old hat already.

  62. Another way for spreadsheet geeks to tortue you by speedlaw · · Score: 1

    I'm grateful for self employment......

  63. Will Management Be Wearing These As Well? by crunchygranola · · Score: 1

    Will management be wearing these, and having their performance judged by the exact same criteria?

    No, I thought not.

    Although volume upon volume is written to prove slavery a very good thing, we never hear of the man who wishes to take the good of it, by being a slave himself.

    ---- Abraham Lincoln

    --
    Second class citizen of the New Gilded Age
  64. Wow, that sounds really dumb . . . by Kimomaru · · Score: 1

    If you have a gig whose output and quality that can be monitored by a device like this, maybe you should look for a different gig.

  65. Does Hitachi... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    eat its own dog shit^h^h^h^hfood?

  66. increasingly unemployed working class by SethJohnson · · Score: 1

    Eventually, no more truck drivers. No more UPS guys. No more mail carriers. No more taxi cab drivers. No more pizza delivery boys.

    You're right. And with technologies like Watson being deployed, reduced need for telephone CSR workers. Jobs for English-speaking people with a high school education are being scraped out of our economy through technological efficiencies.

    "Plumbers make great money! There will always be work for plumbers," people say when arguing against the value of a college education. That perspective doesn't take into account plumbers don't need to speak English and those jobs can be filled by hard-working Spanish-speaking immigrants, thereby reducing the standard wages to something below the imagined level of "great money." STEM curriculum is going to be essential for protecting the current generations of students from becoming the unemployable middle-class of the future.

    1. Re:increasingly unemployed working class by meta-monkey · · Score: 1

      STEM curriculum is going to be essential for protecting the current generations of students from becoming the unemployable middle-class of the future.

      That's what the indentured serva....errr, H1-B visa program is designed to do...drive down STEM wages so the wealthy won't have to pay middle class wages to engineers, either.

      --
      We don't have a state-run media we have a media-run state.
  67. Sigh by ledow · · Score: 2

    A "perfect" boss does not need to instruct workers to wear a badge, need to know who you talk to, how often, where or how energetically, need to track everything, need to know how often / fast you walk around an office, who (or indeed) how much you stop to talk to.

    Because he doesn't hire fecking idiots who he thinks need to be babysat by metrics in order to do their job. And he trusts them as professionals. And only needs bother even investigate if there are specific allegations or failings that he becomes aware of (and he WILL become aware of them if he's any kind of decent boss).

    It's shit like that that propagates that entire fake management crap.

    If you ever consider any of these things metrics even WORTH bothering to measure, you're a fecking idiot of a boss.

    1. Re:Sigh by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      And how many companies actually do that? Meaningless Metrics are how most companies "manage" employees. I've had micromanagement make me completely unproductive, doing paperwork to prove I've done my work, instead of the actual work.

    2. Re:Sigh by strikethree · · Score: 1

      If you ever consider any of these things metrics even WORTH bothering to measure, you're a fecking idiot of a boss.

      Have you ever considered that there are a LOT of idiot bosses out there? Really, I have met many of them. Thankfully, I was not usually subject to their idiotness. (I know, I know, idiocy. I like my word better.)

      --
      "Someone needs to talk to the tree of liberty about its ghoulish drinking problem." by ohnocitizen
  68. poor metrics lead to a toxic office / bad output by Joe_Dragon · · Score: 1

    Bad metrics lead to stuff like

    People not wanting to do harder / longer tasks vs easier / quick ones

    People banking up quick stuff for a slow day other then working on it right away

    Hurts teamwork all the way to fighting over who will do the task / take credit for it.

    Leads to people who game the system to be able to do little to no work.

    Makes people hate the guy who goes out of way to do as much as he can as others don't want to work at that very high volume as it makes them look bad.

    Also can lead to safety being pushed to the side to make your numbers.

  69. Suppositories... anyone? by kimgkimg · · Score: 1

    Waiting for the suppository edition which is shaped like a tiny microscope...

  70. Orwellian? Not really. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    "Never attribute to malice what is more easily explained by incompetence."
    Only a totally clueless manager would ever allow this in the workplace as even though it would appeal to their sense of "control" but they would realize that "their" managers would want them to wear it too, and thus they would oppose it.
    Senior Executives would be exempt (because they are just "better" than everyone else) but once they got a look at the costs involved (physical, software, and legal) they would kill the project.

  71. Is there an App for that? by DarthVain · · Score: 1

    Seriously. Every technology they just mentioned is in every modern smartphone. How many people do not have a smartphone working for a tech company in Japan (if one isn't even issued)?

    Make and app and require its usage.

    Anyway the privacy issues aside.

    I see people taking turns sitting in a room with a box full of badges, doing their best impressions of each other while the rest hit the pub...

    Then the left out guy is bitter, and heaves the box off the roof of the building and some manager gets to see his whole department apparently commit suicide.

  72. Dear Hitachi by clickclickdrone · · Score: 0

    Fuck off. Also, I've added you to the list of companies whose products I'll never buy again.

    --
    I want a list of atrocities done in your name - Recoil
  73. iphone by sckeener · · Score: 1
    It doesn't seem to be needed. All one has to do is give every employee an iphone with a company app on it that does the above.

    Tell them the app delivers their company email.

    They won't be concerned because they 'do nothing wrong' at work and won't think about the fact that the company will know everything else about them as well. They'll assume it is just internet surfing, long phone calls, and texting that the company wants to track when in reality it is everything, a drag net of employee data.

    That said, they'd drown in that much data. More likely they'd turn on such 'features' when they are already wanting to get rid of the employee.

    --
    "Only one thing, is impossible for god: to find any sense in any copyright law on the planet." Mark Twain
  74. Yes... that will really work by jonr · · Score: 1

    Instead of doing your job, your actions will be tailored to suit the device. You will spend most of your energy and brainpower to look to the algorithm, instead of actually doing your work. We have seen this from ultra-competitive workplaces, e.g. Microsoft, where middle-managers and "top" employees were more concerning of how they were doing on their performance reviews, often sabotaging their coworkers work, than actually working.

  75. Good invention... Sellable Product. Bad Ethics. by sageres · · Score: 1

    but one has to remember that there are such things as ethics. Just because a sick idea came to your mind one has to remember that it might be quite unethical to unleash it on the world. Hitatchi being an electronics company did it for business and money sakes hoping to capitalize on various businesses in Japan or for example on outsourced remote employees. But they should have known it is wrong. Thanks, Hitatchi. I used to own a TV from you few years ago, a VCR many years ago, and number of other items. Never again will I ever buy your products.

  76. Creepy by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Why am I reminded of that Twilight Zone episode where you were only allowed to think happy thoughts, lest you get sent away?

  77. Yyyyyeeeah, NOPE. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    NOPE. NOPE. NOPE.

  78. That's just plain insane....Period. by gx5000 · · Score: 1

    That's just plain insane....Period.

    --
    End of Line.
  79. Calm down by sjbe · · Score: 5, Insightful

    I have a hard time believing someone can be so ignorant of history. Do you think slaves were happy? What about feudal serfs? Or pre-unionized steel workers? Or the children working in textile factories?

    He said "happy workers are productive workers". He did NOT say "all productive workers are happy workers". See the difference? What he probably meant was "companies that use policies that keep their workers happy are more likely to have workers that are productive". Sure you can force someone to be productive under miserable conditions but you can get terrific productivity as well by treating your employees nicely.

    Capital has never, and will never, care about the happiness of their workers unless those workers force them to care

    True and there has been tremendous progress on that front. Working conditions in the US are FAR better in most cases than they were 100 years ago, sometimes to a fault.

    1. Re:Calm down by Electricity+Likes+Me · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Sure you can force someone to be productive under miserable conditions but you can get terrific productivity as well by treating your employees nicely.

      Actually you really can't - its a policing fallacy. People count the costs of welfare, but don't count the costs of their police force.

      Similarly, a part of that "force people to be productive" is paying a whole bunch of managers to stand around and bear over them.

    2. Re:Calm down by geoskd · · Score: 1

      but you can get terrific productivity as well by treating your employees nicely.

      No you really can't. People have a "natural rhythm", a pace at which they work. Miserable people will tend to work well below this rhythm. People who are generally not distracted will work pretty close to this pace. People with strong external motivation will work beyond this pace for a time (usually until it burns them out). Left to their own devices, people will not tend to work the hardest they can, they will do just enough to get by. The goal of any good manager is to get their people to work somewhat above their natural rhythm without burning them out. If they are pushed too hard, then they get burned out and game over.

      The idea that happy workers are the most productive is patently false, and needs to stop being repeated. Its bullshit in its purest form.

      --
      I wish I had a good sig, but all the good ones are copyrighted
    3. Re:Calm down by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You are incorrect, pyramids across the globe and other great works, such as the great wall of china could not have been built at the time without slave labor. That "productivity" was not from happy people. So the cost of the police state was not a great factor for a very very long time, nor is it now in certain areas of the world. The slave masses don't like their situation, but what can they do?

    4. Re:Calm down by RespekMyAthorati · · Score: 1

      Working conditions in the US are FAR better in most cases than they were 100 years ago

      And that is due 100% to organized labor, and progressive politicians who support them.

    5. Re:Calm down by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I understand that real research on workers perceived level of happiness (always tricky to deduce) shows that happiness and productivity are not closely linked. It depends on the industry and the nature of the work force. Maybe game developers are happy when they are productive, maybe steel workers are happy when they can have a lot of time off.

    6. Re:Calm down by Electricity+Likes+Me · · Score: 2

      Actually you're incorrect.

      Modern archeological evidence shows that the pyramids were almost certainly not built by slaves. While it's true the Egyptians had slaves, from the building layout and likely meal compositions, the pyramid builders were actually working a well-paid, high status job (and why not, its building the tombs of the emperor - working on things for the whitehouse is usually considered to hold prestige as well).

      Fast-forward to World War II and see how well slave labor worked out for the Germans building rockets. They sank staggering amounts of resources into the enterprise, and despite it were still having frequent problems with V2s being sabotaged or not working from poorly built components. A problem Von Braun himself recognized.

      Just because you can enslave people and do something doesn't mean you're being remotely efficient about it.

    7. Re:Calm down by HiThere · · Score: 2

      OTOH, the Great Wall of China *WAS* built with slave labor...i.e., with labor of political prisoners. IIUC it was often intended that they be worked to death, unlike many other projects where a high death rate was accepted as "the cost of doing business". I include in this latter group the Grand Canal. That was built by conscripted peasants, but it really was desired that they survive. Many of them didn't, but that wasn't really intended. But the Great Wall was an intentional sentence of internal exile, and many of those working on it were intentionally worked to death.

      --

      I think we've pushed this "anyone can grow up to be president" thing too far.
    8. Re:Calm down by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      And yet your own post would seem to confirm it. Miserable people work below rhythm, people who are not distracted work at rhythm. Essential needs being met and no immediate externalities preventing them from concentrating on work could be as good a definition for "happy" as one is likely to get in a general sense. Other workers can be made to briefly outperform the "happy" workers, but then burn out, a devil's bargain at best. So unless you have a pool of available workers who are trained and instantly available, "happy" workers are indeed your most productive over the long term. Otherwise you don't care about individual worker prodictivity at all and merely seek "high employee productivity" overall by burning through workers. This model works great (ask China) until you burn through the available pool of new workers.

    9. Re:Calm down by sjbe · · Score: 1

      Actually you really can't - its a policing fallacy. People count the costs of welfare, but don't count the costs of their police force.

      Speaking as an accountant I can pretty much assure you that the people watching the money are watching the cost of management too. You absolutely can get productivity (amount of work per $ spent) out of people by force. It's pretty evil to do but it does work. The entire concept of slavery is built around this principle. Slavery didn't go away because it was economically unviable. It was just deemed to be evil and rightly so.

      Similarly, a part of that "force people to be productive" is paying a whole bunch of managers to stand around and bear over them.

      That's not as hard as you might think, particularly in locations with cheap labor.

    10. Re:Calm down by gordo3000 · · Score: 1

      horseshit. organized labor only existed in certain industries, and many others have never had organized labor or it's influences on employee's work. in general though, all those jobs require EDUCATION. Highly educated employees have always had pretty good working conditions, even when working very long hours. And that same story has played out around the globe. Hell, Organized labor didn't make car factory workers have a better life on it's own. Increasing the required skill level far enough so that people couldn't be wantonly replaced gave them real influence. Else they were just a bunch of replaceable, unskilled people who wanted more than the guy next to him.

      When janitors organize and try to go on strike, they have NO skill that can't be replaced by anyone looking for a job. When my neighbor who worked at GM went on strike, I'm really well educated and have 0 chance of learning how to build engines in any reasonable amount of time to keep the company running.Conversely, it's also why a union is no longer required for good pay in the industry (look at things like the Boeing plant in SC or many car plants that are non-union). Those wages aren't held up by the unions; the problem is you don't want your skilled work force to get pissed off. If you take 3 years training up employees to build Boeing 787s, you can't afford them quitting/not caring/ not wanting to be careful and interrupt your flow.

  80. But by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    What's stopping me from removing the badge and leaving it on the desk while I stand off?

  81. Who watches the data? by PPH · · Score: 1

    Just your boss? Or your bosses boss as well?

    I can see first line management get just as paranoid over such a device as the employees. Bad managers lead to unmotivated employees and goofing off. Guess who gets fired.

    --
    Have gnu, will travel.
  82. Re:In other words Government is the new Overlord by BoRegardless · · Score: 0

    When we honestly look at who is controlling society today it is not corporations or 'capitalists', but government that takes over 50% of the entire GDP output of the country.

    Government does this by over a half dozen methods beyond taxes and fees, including dictates on what you must buy and use in both personal life (extras for cars) and business (protecting everything from snail darters to calories of our meals.)

  83. IEEE Spectrum article on the device by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Here is an interesting article featuring the Hitachi Business Microscope:

    Can Technology Make You Happy?

  84. Opportunities by Shomra · · Score: 1

    Wait. Is this saying there's going to be a growing market for robots who can wear badges and be programmed to do things management wants while the rest of us do actual work? Oh, baby, this could be a goldmine!

    Remember, every solution is an opportunity to create a new problem.

  85. Solution looking for a problem by erp_consultant · · Score: 1

    Going by the summary of what this tool is supposed to do (and without the benefit of having used it) I can only deduct that it's worthless. Let's take the example of how often people speak up in meetings. The implication is that the more you speak up the more you are contributing. In other words, the extrovert is more valuable than the introvert. Nothing could be further from the truth. Is it more valuable to make one good comment in a meeting or ten useless comments? It's like judging a programmer on how many lines of code per hour they produce. Is it not better to judge the programmer on the quality rather than the quantity of the code?

  86. Libertarianism explained! by gestalt_n_pepper · · Score: 5, Informative

    Tyranny by government dictators: Bad.
    Tyranny by corporate dictators: Good.

    Any questions?

    --
    Please do not read this sig. Thank you.
    1. Re:Libertarianism explained! by buswolley · · Score: 1

      Interestingly, many libertarians are against unions. Yet unions, to me, are just exercises in capitalism. In my own self interest, I form a contract with others to ensure more profitability for my expenditures.

      --

      A Good Troll is better than a Bad Human.

    2. Re:Libertarianism explained! by gestalt_n_pepper · · Score: 2

      Money is power. Government is power. In a broader sense, unions are an attempt to equalize the power playing field. Naturally, this is why they are fought tooth and nail by monetary power (i.e. wealthy owners).

      --
      Please do not read this sig. Thank you.
    3. Re:Libertarianism explained! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      you get the same response as the other guy:

      im not a libertarian myself (i'm actually quite liberal....but i also support facts and real debate, not lies), but that's NOT the viewpoint of a libertarian and you misinformed /. idiots need to stop spreading these BS lies. you wouldnt know a libertarian if he bit you on the arse, and it only makes you look stupid.

      most of the people you /. morons talk about as libertarians are really just big business conservatives who have latched onto this label because they want to think they are different or special or simply misrepresent themselves. and in the process they give libertarians a bad name. real libertarians are about rights and liberty, regardless of who is seeking to get in the way of that, and oppose anyone who would take it away. If X is bad because government does it, it's not automatically good just because it's being done by a business. It's still X...it's still bad, and a libertarian would still be opposed to it.

      in short: you're full of krap and dont know what youre talking about

  87. Excellent news for master frauds by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I once heard of a woman who worked two jobs in the same building. She was eventually caught and lost both. With this device there is the potential to sniff and duplicate real work from other people, and work dozens of jobs all across town. If you're good at interviewing, just get the jobs and then let the badges fool the boss into thinking you're productive. Make cameo appearances once in a while. Once it's set up and you've got enough to retire, pull in a few friends. In the long run, you have a whole cabal of virtual workers. Let's face it, most of those meetings aren't important anyway. This could go on for years. If management ever finds out, they'll be too embarrassed to fire people. You've got them by the balls now. Welcome to the club.

  88. I have never and never will need a job by ralphaostrander · · Score: 1

    That bad.

  89. Most interesting read in decades..... by rts008 · · Score: 2

    I don't know whether to thank you, or curse you!
    I went to the author's page and read "Manna" just now, and the first half of that book scared me tremendously(more than any other sci-fi work I have ever experienced), then the second half was soul-tearing.

    What I mean by soul-tearing, is seeing the possibilities in the Australia Project, and loving the whole concept...at the same time knowing it could probably never happen on this planet.

    Too many entrenched entities(gov't. and corp) would see this as a worse cancer than USA saw communism.
    In the real world, the Australia Project would only be nuked out of existence before it could get viable.

    We have to protect those corp. markets and profits for national security, ya know. (it IS NOT about protecting people or 'democracy')

    Which brings up an interesting thought to me:
    The last war that the USA was successful at, was WW2. We had a common rally point:we were attacked, and fought back. We were fighting to actually protect our citizens and land...the Axis expansion was coming to our shores.
    Since then, all of the wars we have been in have all been about protecting markets and profits[1], and we have universally failed.

    I think that troop motivation has a significant factor with that, in that there is now common rally point for the people to get behind. (another part is HOW we have went about war)

    Well, in the end, I'm going to count reading 'Manna" as a positive experience, so thanks! :-)

    [1] the whole anti-communism thing is rooted in protecting corp. markets and profits, and is also the root of the anti-socialist attitude in the USA

    --
    Down With Slashdot BETA!!! I've been around the corner and seen the oliphant; you can only abuse me from your perspecti
  90. Wet Dream by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I can just see the NSA jerking off to the idea of this

  91. Lovely by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Just lovely. They are going to need a virtual employee to go with it. I would rather starve first. Why not a chain so they can chain you to your desk?

  92. Strike Back by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    If the programmers, engineers, and specialists here are so damn smart*, why is someone not developing the Virtual Manager and Virtual CEO? It's not as if these products would actually have to deliver anything good, just as long as they deliver something at all. I always read about how over-exaggerated the importance of the CEO and most managers are, why not create some convoluted system to spit out CEO and managerial decisions. There is plenty of shitware and crap solutions sold because of peoples responses to marketing programming. Maybe if a few of these managers and administrators felt the threat of automation, they just might treat people as people rather than fleshy robots.

  93. Scarecrow apocalype by SteveFoerster · · Score: 1

    In a libertarian society, there wouldn't even [i]be[/i] corporations. Corporations are a state-created means of shielding company owners from accountability for the actions of the firms they control.

    And you seriously can't tell the difference between switching from buying stuff from one provider to another, and emigrating?

    I mean, is this anti-libertarian straw man day, or something? This thread looks like a scarecrow convention!

    --
    Space game using normal deck of cards: http://BattleCards.org
    1. Re:Scarecrow apocalype by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Scarecrow Apocalypse is the name of my Slipknot cover band!

  94. I worked in Japan about 25 years ago. by oscrivellodds · · Score: 1

    Back then all employees, including engineers such as myself, had to sign in to a book each morning. At precisely 8:02 one of the office ladies came and picked up the books from each department and placed a little red stamp in place of the signatures of anyone who had not yet signed in. For the first hour or so of the day, most of the guys smoked and drank coffee and talked about last night's activities. I almost always arrived at 8:05 because I refused to board trains where people were being physically stuffed into the cars. I found that by waiting for 1 or 2 trains to go by, I could comfortably and safely just get on the train, but arrive 5 minutes late to work.

    Once a month, every month, my kacho would lecture me about being on-time. I was required to write an explanation for each time I was late. I couldn't write one and make copies, I had to write on separate sheets of paper why I was late for each date that I was late, about 20 per month. This would take me the better part of half a day, what with coffee and bathroom breaks. It was absolutely comical.

    One day I needed to send a document to the US. I checked the office supply cabinet for a large envelope and there were none, so I asked one of the office ladies where I could get an envelope. She handed me a form and said I should fill it out, then get the kacho's and bucho's signatures on it and take it to the General Affairs dept where they would file it and give me some envelopes. I asked if they were going to give me a pallet full of envelopes and she said, no, they usually give them out 3 or 4 at a time. I foolishly asked why she thinks they do this and she said I guess it's to keep people from taking them home. Then I asked how much do envelopes cost compared to the time required to fill out the form, get two signatures, and file the form. She said she never thought about it like that but that I might have a good point.

    Japan has a long history of treating people like either children or machines. This concept doesn't surprise me at all.

  95. Dont get it. by drolli · · Score: 1

    Sensible performance metric: Does employee x get the shit done?

    Insensible performane metric: how often doe he stand up while getting the shit done.

    I know people who would be excellent according to such a device, however nothing beyond powerpoint engineering ever leaves theis desks.

  96. Unions by TheRecklessWanderer · · Score: 1

    I'm pretty sure it would go against collective agreements currently in place. In many regions, employers are now allowed to have cameras in the work place for the purpose of observing the employees at work.

    --
    Mean what you say...say what you mean.
  97. Taylorism comes to the Office environment .. by DTentilhao · · Score: 1

    It looks like Taylorism, aka time and motion is finally coming to the Office environment. And remember when you go to take a leek, your urine is automatically tested for pharmaceuticals.

  98. They seem to have confused the . . . by bogidu · · Score: 1

    . . . definition of boss with that of micromanaging slave driver.

  99. the Power of Magnets by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    For some reason your badge keeps breaking down, and needs to be replaced every week.

  100. Re:In other words by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Also, would never fly with union workers.

  101. Toilet by nurb432 · · Score: 1

    That would be flushed on the first day, as i walk out the door.

    --
    ---- Booth was a patriot ----
  102. People have twisted those definitions by dbIII · · Score: 3

    It's because the words have been applied far too much to be sheeps clothing for wolves. Some of those that most loudly shout that they are Christian are instead merchants in the temple. It makes others wary of anyone that makes similar noises in case they have an extremist or confidence trickster on their hands.
    As for "conservative", when people verbally push how conservative they are in politics it's sometimes part of a shell game to get away with doing something radical. I've got one of those in my state that is really 99% fascist and is trying to change or destroy everything he can - so much for "conservative".
    So when you fit the original definitions I can see how it's a bit tough that people assume you are a disguised wolf instead as soon as you mention the label. Maybe don't. Democratic Socialists would be laughed out of this place or called Communists as soon as they bring up their label.

  103. Lower/Middle Management Made Obsolete? by GPLToaster · · Score: 1

    Oh well, according to Scott Adams, they were only there so as to do the least amount of possible damage anyway.

  104. what an awful place to work by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    who would want to work in a hell-hole environment like that.

  105. Create app for phone that buzzes 70 times a minute by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    And simulates other random office productive noise. Leave badge on phone, problem solved.

  106. Re:Mean While, In the US... by l0n3s0m3phr34k · · Score: 1

    luckily for some of us we're salary, so it's OK if we don't work a full 40...

  107. Re:Mean While, In the US... by mysidia · · Score: 1

    "You were here for 50 hours this week but you only really 'worked' for 39 of them...no overtime for you!"

    Sorry, nope, under the FLSA. In the US, for ordinary non-exempt employees: you have to count any rest period as time worked that's 20 minutes or shorter of continuous rest.

    Rest and Meal Periods: Rest periods of short duration, usually 20 minutes or less, are common in industry (and promote the efficiency of the employee) and are customarily paid for as working time. These short periods must be counted as hours worked.

  108. Pretty boring by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Turns out it's basically just The Golf Channel.

  109. What left? by rsilvergun · · Score: 2

    Maybe you're from France or something, but in America we don't have anything that even remotely resembles a Left Wing party. There's a few pundits who're left wing on _social_ issues, but I can count the number of economic liberals that show up in public discourse on one hand (Robert Reich, Liz Warren, Rachel Maddow and that old guy who plays her second fiddle).

    Heck, when Liz Warren suggested reinstating Glass-Seagal to prevent another crash like in 2008 the question wasn't if it was right or wrong, but why she was even bothering having a discussion on something when it's got zero chance of happening ...

    --
    Hi! I make Firefox Plug-ins. Check 'em out @ https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/youtube-mp3-podcaster/
  110. Its allready here.. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    "not a produce or tech Pitch, just a fact" Aruba networks already has this tech developed, but does not need a special badge to operate..
    wireless networks are getting so developed. Your smart phone becomes the item of interest..It can be tracked as you move through the building from access point to access point, triangulation and bam, they found you.. Moving past that, the next step is using your smart phone as your Auth token as well. Instead of using a key or badge to get into an area, you can just walk in.. The Tech will track you by your cell phone, if you are standing infront of an area blocked by a door the AP
    s will trace your position and unlock the door according to your right and permissions.
    Basicially the base is set, once they can nail down a tech that will reliably track you, the rest is a piece of cake..

    What makes this type of tech somewhat Shady is "if your on the network being observed, the owner of that network does not have to make a statement about it, or ask your permission" heck, they dont really have to inform you that you are being tracked.
    Dont be fooled, just because somethign publicly surfaces, doesnt mean its been around for a while, or that is not in place yet..
    1984 any one?? Where's my soylent green..

  111. slack by cascadingstylesheet · · Score: 1

    Everything, and everyone, needs some slack.

    You wouldn't engineer machinery with zero tolerance. There has to be some give, or the machinery fails.

    Humans deserve no less.

  112. Killing productivity by manu0601 · · Score: 1

    What a smart way of killing productivity! Make work environment a surveillance hell, and top performers will flee as soon as possible.

  113. woooohooo by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    so from now on - I'll leave my badge next to my PC speakers

  114. Sorta already exists for hospitals by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    The Vocera system uses something similar, a wifi badge that doubles as a wifi VoIP handsfree communicator with voice recognition (very Star Trek). With the wifi AP's doubling as location triangulators, doctor positions (and assets if a wifi beacon is on it) work out pretty well.

    http://www.vocera.com/

    But Hitachi's devices being without a speaker means it's strictly a surveillance sensor, in the tapping sense. If the device is not recording audio per se, but human conversation sound levels by locally processing the microphone input, people might feel a little better, but the raw location tracking will make some people's skin crawl.

    There was also the Charm Badge/Tag built by a MIT spinout company, which appears to be

    http://www.tagsense.com/

    that was a expo/event tracking/monitoring solution using semi-active tags for attendance tracking, as well as providing a contact information exchange service for conference attendees who want contact information for people they talked with.

    Also, this Hitahi system dates from 2008?

  115. Enemy of State! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Hitachi should be careful on this... they don't wanna be the World's enemy.

  116. Why is it by barakn · · Score: 1

    This device, by monitoring employees, allows bosses to defer their responsibilities to the device. It therefore allows one class of employee to become worse at their job by ensuring another class becomes better at theirs. So the one group of people that needs this technology applied to themselves the most is bosses, those lazy fucks.

    --
    "I'm so moist I'm sticking to the leather." -Kermit the Frog on The Late Late Show
  117. Obvious solution: MOVE. by ulatekh · · Score: 3

    The state I live in has weak labor laws, and the company believes it can do as it pleases. My fellow co-workers and I have been looking for other jobs for a few years now, but the market sucks. (BTW, all of us have at least a bachelors degree, mine is in engineering). There are thousands of jobs around here that pay minimum wage, but almost nothing paying any more than that.

    I have an obvious solution for you. MOVE.

    That's what I've had to do for years, just to stay employed. My last move was 200 miles. The one before that was 650 miles.

    I see my family a week at Thanksgiving and a week at Christmas. Sure that sucks, but it's what I had to do in order to avoid what you're going through.

    --
    "Once we've identified and embraced our sickness, we'll have strength...and that's when we get dangerous." - John Waters
    1. Re:Obvious solution: MOVE. by geoskd · · Score: 1

      I have an obvious solution for you. MOVE. That's what I've had to do for years, just to stay employed. My last move was 200 miles. The one before that was 650 miles. I see my family a week at Thanksgiving and a week at Christmas. Sure that sucks, but it's what I had to do in order to avoid what you're going through.

      Its not that simple, My wife and I both work. We both have to. I still make slightly more, but my wife works for the state, and consequently still has decent benefits. If either one of us had to move to get another job, it would effectively unemploy the other. The odds of both of us being able to get new jobs simultaneously in divergent fields is low enough to make the prospect pretty much pointless. I have had several head hunters bring up opportunities for me in other states, but in locations where my wife would be unable to find work, so once again, we are talking about effectively unemploying one of us.

      Not everyone is in a position where they are responsible only for themselves, and even if they are, It sucks having to upend an entire life because our governing corporate bodies no longer feel the need to uphold their end of the social contract.

      --
      I wish I had a good sig, but all the good ones are copyrighted
    2. Re:Obvious solution: MOVE. by Zynder · · Score: 1

      If we all had that luxury! It takes money to move and if you have the best job in a town of mostly minimum wage, as geo stated, exactly how are you supposed to pay for this move? While it was common 10 years ago, many companies have cut out moving expense bonuses just as another cost "savings" measure. Ya know, more of that exact same stuff geo mentioned in his post. You also say you only see your family twice a year. To me, that means you have no spouse or kids. Get back to me when you do and tell us all stories about all that money you have now.

  118. Wow by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Are you sure at&t didnt make these first??

  119. Technology isn't evil... by freeze128 · · Score: 1

    ..It's how the technology is used

    I think this Virtual boss is a GOOD THING, and should be implemented..... but only in prisons.

  120. turns me on by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    this concept turns me on. I am going to make my female employees wear it...

  121. Manna by peter.kingsbury · · Score: 1

    Strongly recommend reading/buying this from Kindle (for less than a dollar). It's a great and important read.

  122. I'll wear it only IF by fluffythdestroy · · Score: 1

    my salary goes up cause I KNOW I work more than my boss and/or my other colleges at work. But since it gathers data and gives it to the boss, I hardly doubt it will be used this way.

    --
    PC Gaming enthousiast that gives comments, opinions and reviews on Games. I'm just having fun with games while doing let
  123. Re:Mean While, In the US... by captjc · · Score: 1

    Wow, I'm an engineering contractor and I specifically want wages. Around here salary means, "If you don't put in at least 60 hours a week and are on call 24/7, you should consider yourself fired!" 9-5 doesn't exist, more like 8-8 and weekends. If you have a conference call with China, forget about sleep that night!

    Salary has become a way for companies to abuse unpaid overtime.

    --
    Slow Down Cowboy! It's been 1 hour, 47 minutes since you last successfully posted a comment
  124. Veridian Dynamics... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    we don't trust our employees and now... we don't have to.

    Veridian Dynamics - it sucks to work for us.

  125. Greetings by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I for one welcome our new uber-badges...

  126. what no community answer? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    My last question, "were is my soylent green" Goes unanswered??

    Hmm is the community collectively, mentally dead???

    The new /. regime??

    Or are they distracted like little cats with shiny toys with bells?

    Or moving past that, they Uber overlords have requested silence on the subject, since it may require individual, emotive thought..

    Have a truly positive through provoking day.
     

  127. What next by LThesaint · · Score: 1

    A goverment will issue every married couple a ring that will monitor your marriege as well as well you can be a fit parents often time how do you have sex. Then they review to find a beat way to screw you up and sell the report to marriege canselors, devorce lawyer, child service and inforcement. You know what next

  128. Political Stereotyping by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    So lumping all libertarians into one large group and stereotyping them is ok? Just like there are varying degrees of liberalism or conservatism, there are varying degrees of libertarianism. And there are many sub-cultures. Some of which are more focused on individual rights over government and/or corporate rights.

    I'm not a libertarian myself, but I have several friends who are and all of the differ to some degree about a great many things.

  129. Looking forward to my future promotion. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    "Embedded inside each badge, according to Hitachi, are "infrared sensors, an accelerometer, a microphone sensor and a wireless communication device."

    Perhaps I like to spin my badge as I work; I will quickly be promoted to the rank of astronaut as my supervisors are amazed at my ability to withstand high G forces. Also, being an engineering firm with no such position, I will be the most obvious choice to head our new space division. The upward mobility afforded by these new devices looks pretty good to me, where can my company sign up?

  130. The Next Revolution by Tannasgh · · Score: 1

    With each passing day, I become increasingly alarmed by the sheer dearth of new tech which purports to increase productivity. With each article I read where companies seek to eak fractional incremental gains out of employees who are already working half again as much as their parents did just to get by, these additional Orwellian intrusions are pushing me to avoid work environments where privacy has lost any meaning. I wonder if managers will use this tool to monitor lunches, toilet breaks as well. It all feels like a return to a time when a company could essentially own an employee. These are the types of situations that lead to revolutions because you cannot quantify morale or spirit. Put a lid on a pot too tightly and it tends to end up poorly.

  131. C'mon, to a geek this would be a godsend by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    OK, so you're going to give me a badge that radios in my movements, and then you're going to *hand me the hardware*? Gee, exactly how long will it take for folks to figure out the protocol and start spoofing info?

    I'd *love* to have this in a company that's large and silly enough to treat it as gospel. Will they fire you if the computer swears that you were running around the office all day? (Or at least, the radio *says* you were running around the office all day).

  132. So like, just in the office? by Pherdnut · · Score: 1

    Or would it track you all the way to the gun store and back?

  133. Assymetry of Power by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Whenever I hear this "libertarian"-esque BS about how any employer or company who abuses workers with bullshit like this would be "punished" by the market as workers quit and go elsewhere ignore the simple facts. The most pertinent fact though is simply THIS:
    In general and relatively speaking, it is far easier for the employer to replace you than it is for you to replace your job!

    Now there are exceptions but it is more true than false.

    In a world of "surplus jobs", maybe this libertarian bullshit of two "equal" parties engaging in "mutually consenting" terms of employment holds. But in the REAL WORLD, people can't easily just quit or get to "choose" a "better" job with a "better" employer at a whim. OTOH, an employer could post an ad for a job and get dozens of takers within days.

    Sure the crappy employers won't get the best employees. But the "good" employers don't have infinite jobs available and once they've filled out their positions the remaining workers have no choice but to take whatever jobs remaining jobs are available even if those employers are less than desirable because bills gotta be paid and ones gotta be fed and sheltered.

    Libertarian "liberty" basically amounts to liberty only for those who have money and "capital" to exploit those who are poor and powerless. Frankly that is no less oppressive than so-called government tyranny.

  134. Coroprate, er, corpulant, er ... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Should "coroprate" be spelled "coprolite" ()

  135. On Obama and friends please by niftymitch · · Score: 1

    This is rife for abuse at too many levels.

    The most obvious to me is the manager with twenty direct reports.
    Clearly he cannot pay micro attention to each so the mgr would then
    elect to focus on one or perhaps two and exclude all the others. There
    is no way to accurately compress a day into less than a day.

    Sexual harassment... oh my.

    Some meetings you need to be quiet.

    Now let us invert this.
    Obama and all the NSA depth search limit contacts
    to him and his cabinet as well as the legislative branch.
    This information and its meta data would let us know
    a lot more about the inner workings.

    Perhaps stated differently the manager also needs one
    and his employees need access. In specific union representatives
    and legal proxies. HR harassment police need these on
    all managers in a position of power.

    Golly help anyone that shakes a bottled smoothy too often or
    too vigorously.

    --
    Truth is stranger than fiction, but it is because Fiction is obliged to stick to possibilities; Truth isn't. Mark Twain.
  136. Bosses & workers by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    gosgog:

    You workers live in a Republic right? Own your own businesses? Have shares bought in the business in which you work?
    Your answer to the 1st questions are probably Yes. If in the next Question its a NO....then someone else put up the Capital to start the business, to take all the risks to stay in business, to pay taxes to governments to keep in business, to put up with whatever rules & regulations are involved in running that type of business & property expenses etc., and to make the business profitable. So, what do you contribute? Your Labor...yes, your ability to do your your job the proper way.
    So what does your Boss provide for you? A Living wage? & in this day and age...8 daily hours 5 or 6 days a week? Overtime? Some of the expense of Healthcare?
    Bonuses for good work? Pension plans? Opportunities for advancement & so forth! But, bear in mind, the education you brought to the job is what got you there & it may provide for advancement. The rest of how your working conditions are are dependent on how valued your abilities are. plus you're attitude toward the company.
    Obviously, if you don't like your job, don't like your Boss, don't get reasonable money, etc....THEN QUIT BITCHING, QUIT THE JOB AND GO FIND ANOTHER SOMEWHERE ELSE. The world doesn't owe you a living...YOU OWE TO YOUR OWN ENTERPRISE TO SUPPORT YOURSELF. Disabled, then yes, that's what we have Governments for,.

    1. Re:Bosses & workers by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The world may not owe the workers anything but neither does the world owe the business "owners" anything either.

      If workers aren't happy they can quit sure but they also have a right to "bitch" and have govt force changes in work rules as well. If the bosses don't like that, they can setup shop in Somalia or other "libertarian paradise".

      One thing to keep in mind is that workers and consumers ARE THE SAME THING. This is something that seems to be lost on "bosses". If bosses could go whatever they wanted to drive down wages and working conditions for all the workers without complaint and "bitching" and without recourse, how the fuck are peons going to spend on goods and services that keep those bosses rich???

    2. Re:Bosses & workers by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      And why exactly are bosses "owed" compliant workers who can't "bitch"? Workers can bitch and force changes to work rules if they want aside from just quitting. Workers have every right unless you support some kind of corporate, fascist style govt where workers can only keep quiet.

    3. Re:Bosses & workers by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Oh please! Most workers work in big established corporations not startups. Hitachi has been around for a long time. If anything most CEOs have little skin in the game and take no PERSONAL risk at all! They can drive companies into the ground and walk away with golden parachutes while the run of the mill worker might lose his house!

      Its complete rubbish to think that MOST bosses are founders of businesses who put up capital and took risks. That is far from the norm.

      You are a moron.