Slashdot Mirror
Did the Ignition Key Just Die?
cartechboy (2660665) writes "Do you still use a metal key to start your vehicle? We already knew this was old tech at this point, but now it might fully be killed off. In the wake of General Motors' 'Switchgate' fiasco, we've heard the CEO tell a Congressional committee that the recall may force GM to ditch ignition keys altogether in favor of push-button systems. If this became a reality, it would end decades of complaints from customers. Bloomberg approximates at least 18,000 complaints have been filed since NHTSA was formed in 1970, peaking at more than 2,000 in the year 2000. Those complaints resulted in roughly 21 million vehicles being recalled. The push-button ignition isn't perfect, but we know electrical trumps mechanical more often than not. Are you ready for an era where the ignition key doesn't exist?"
Are you ready for an era where the ignition key doesn't exist?
If you aren't ready for advancements in technology then what are you doing reading this website?
Seriously.
My throttle is stuck open and I don't know how to shut the engine down!
"When information is power, privacy is freedom" - Jah-Wren Ryel
Get into my car?!?!?
Haaaa!!!!!!!
With a key, you switch it to 1 and can run accessories. You switch it to 2 and the ignition computer is powered. Switch and hold it to 3 and you crank. You decide exactly how to start your engine.
With the newer systems, you just push the button and it decides what to do. You lose the control. What if you want to crank for a while because it won't start? What if you want to switch it to position 2 and push-start a manual transmission car? You can't.
I like the standard keys. And really, just because one manufacturer happened to use a defective part, we lose them? Key switches have been around for decade and are reliable. Just fix the reliability issue in that one model and that's it.
For people like me with a 35 year old car that's in perfect working order, this is awesome. Car thieves can't even figure out what the 5 pedals do let alone how to drive with them (.. for those going "5?", my model has the headlights down there for whatever reason)
So this will be another old-time-tech that will make my vehicle even more difficult for would-be thieves. Example - http://www.freerepublic.com/fo...
Here's what I'm thinking:
1. We're trading traditional car-stealing techniques for hacking techniques.
2. Now instead of the otherwise mature, reliable technology of a mechanical ignition lock system, we're going to have to worry about zero-day vulnerabilities in a complex system?
3. Another facet of vehicle security: What about the steering lock mechanism? If it's electrically actuated, then what's the point in even having it? It can theoretically be hacked like the rest of the car.
4. Another approach to hacking your way into stealing a car: Manufacturer 'back doors' into the system? I'm thinking there'd have to be some sort of 'manufacturer access' backdoor built into the system, which once uncovered will just make it easier to steal a car.
I'm sure I'll think of more later on but that's what I've got off the top of my head.
Are YOU using the TOOL, or is the TOOL using YOU? Think about it!
Was this created by a content farming script or something? OK cool, so no more keys due to 'switchgate' how about explaining that scandal a bit ?
Or explain how the irritatingly passe use of appending 'gate' onto the end of anything resembling a scandal now applies to a car recalls rather than just political scandals.
Also, how about explaining how a push button start would correct the situation?
And finally; props for writing a summary that literally contains all the information contained in the article. (Well almost all of it.)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Betteridge's_law_of_headlines
My dad's base-model Nissan had one five-ish years ago, and that was such a stripped model that it didn't even have a factory radio.
I thought the only cars with a key-in-slot ignition were fleet models and the ones that hadn't been redesigned in half a decade. Oh, and American-brand cars, but I repeat myself.
Are you ready for an era where the ignition key doesn't exist?"
A physical key still unlocks the doors when the car's battery has died. A physical key doesn't itself have a battery to die, leaving you stranded in a blizzard in the middle of nowhere after you stop to pee on the side of the road. And perhaps most importantly - A physical key doesn't cost some $300 to replace when you drop it in a puddle. If that particular scam doesn't solely account for the auto industry's desire to move to keyless fobs, I have a bridge for sale.
Those recalls were predominantly due to issues which arose as a direct result of companies cutting cost by deliberately making parts weaker, cheaper, less durable, etc. It is simply naive to suggest that these same companies will apply more care or consideration when designing all electrical systems.
All a switch to electronic system will do is replace infrequent mechanical recalls with increasingly more frequent updates of shoddy on-board software. Eventually, drivers will be expected to download and install car software patches themselves. Once again, company costs will be externalized at the expense of quality.
May the Maths Be with you!
So these key fobs that are used on push-button ignitions have their own issues. RF interference is one. A guy I work with had his car towed because he couldn't start his car, had a module replaced on car, only to find out that it was RF interference that was the culprit.
I can mend the break of day, heal a broken heart, and provide temporary relief to nymphomaniacs.
I have one car with an ignition key and two cars with start buttons.
Every time I get in the car with the key it goes something like this:
Sit down
Reach for start button
Curse under my breath
Dig through pocket for key
Start vehicle with key.
I'd love to be done with mechanical keys.
In a newer engine, the computer controls all aspects of starting and running; timing, spark intensity, fuel quantity, mixture, etc. Holding down the key and cranking is no longer everything needed to start a cranky engine.
John
What if you want to switch it to position 2 and push-start a manual transmission car?
... then you push the button twice without your foot on the brake. It goes to run mode just like the second detent of a traditional key. Pressing once goes to accessory mode. More presses simply cycles between accessory...run...off.
Using a key is so 19th century. Pushing a button? 20th century. Embedded RFID is where it's at. Get in the car; it turns on. End of story.
How about a moderation of -1 pedantic.
FYI, you can still switch it to the position to run the accessories and not start he engine. Just don't step on the brake, then press the button once, and you'll get just the radio. Press it again (while again not stepping on the brake) and you'll get the rest of the accessories/instruments, and a third press (again, without the brake pedal depressed) and everything turns off. Simple.
Now, my car is an automatic, so I have not tried the roll/start on a manual transmission with a push button ignition, but it seems to me that with all of the accessories and instrumentation turned on, I don't see why it wouldn't work. And, as far as your point of needing to crank it for a while, if that's the case, there are issues that need repairing, so it's not as if you're being deprived of some designed, intended function of the vehicle.
Same here!
With an ignition key, I know that I'm in control. If I step out of the car, I'd normally remove the keys (unless there were other passengers already) and do whatever I have to do before returning, knowing that my car would still be there. With the remote, even if I stepped out w/ it, leaving the car unlocked, anybody can just get in and drive some distance. Maybe he won't get far, but the damage would have been done.
Not just your above points, but these remote controls now cost an arm and a leg, as opposed to the standard mechanical keys where you could buy duplicate or triplicate keys depending on how many you needed at reasonable prices.
In my button start (2013 Hyundai Elantra) you press it once for the equivalent of 1 key turn (accessory mode) twice for running without a start, and hold the brake down and press to start. Holding it down while running for a couple seconds will kill the engine no problem, or tap it while in park. You lose the physical key but all the functionality is still there.
In Nissans and Toyotas with push button ignition, hold down the brake and press the button to crank. IIRC, it keeps cranking while you're holding down the button, although I haven't really tested that much, since I don't want to keep the starter engaged for too long once it's actually started. If you don't actually want to start the car, don't hold down the brake; just press the button to run accessories. Press it one more time to turn everything on.
I don't know if you can push-start a manual with this system, but it seems like you could.
My 2006 Chevy has a key, but the computer still starts the car. Turning the key to "3" just tells the computer to start the car, you don't have to hold it until the car starts either. Our newer cars do the same thing as well.
SAAB dealt with this issue mechanically decades ago. Mechanical key in the center, where the handbrake is located. No stress on the mechanical switch due to heavy key rings.
Worked very well, unless they had (have) a patent on it, seems like an easier more reliable fix.
I am so ready for all new vehicles with fob starters to come with three fob sets, by default.
I push the brake and push the button once for ignition. If I want accessory I hit the button twice. If I want to turn the car on without starting the engine I press it 3 times.
You can do all of that with a keyless ignition. Leave foot off brake, push once for ACC, twice for ON. Foot on brake, press to start. It cranks until the engine fires, or at least as long as it makes sense.
Here's how it works in my car: press the button once without the clutch depressed, the ignition computer is powered. Press once more and you're in accessories-only mode. Press once more and the car is off. From off, press the button once with the clutch depressed, the computer cranks the engine for as long as it takes to fire up. If you want to push-start the car, you turn it on without pressing the clutch pedal, put it in 3rd, roll down a hill, let off the clutch and the engine fires up.
Just FYI how those things work in a push-start car.
That is all.
I like the standard keys. And really, just because one manufacturer happened to use a defective part, we lose them? Key switches have been around for decade and are reliable. Just fix the reliability issue in that one model and that's it.
It isn't one manufacturer. There have been over 20 million recalled vehicles due to ignition switch problems, from basically every manufacturer, over the last 30 years.
That doesn't qualify as "reliable" in my book.
upon the advice of my lawyer, i have no sig at this time
Those complaints resulted in roughly 21 million vehicles being recalled.
How many of these recalls would not have happened if the manufacturers listened to their own internal reports saying that the parts had problems? We can subtract GM's most recent 2.6 million for a start.
Nice try, trying to blame the key type.
Modern transponder keys are reliable, so when my F-150 lock cylinder acted up I removed it, dumped out the lock wafers, and reinstalled. All I need is the transponder for anti-theft. I'm mechanic and can't be arsed to code and reinstall my replacement cylinder but might one day.
The control you get from the rotary switch (which could as well be on the dash as it USED TO BE) remains.
Ignition key switches tend to fail over time because most are poorly engineered. I can deal with a pushbutton but I'll wire more options as I want them. Between buttons, switches, and simple Bosch-style relays you can have many options.
The last two cars I've owned have been Renaults. Not only do they key-cards, but they're wireless too. No need to actually dig them out of your bag! How can other manufacturers be so behind???!
return 0; }
It's 4040 lbs of deadly steel driven by fiery explosions, not a goddamned iPad!
I guess a blue glowing "Start" button is acceptable for a Tesla, since that's all futuristic and stuff.
the preceding comment is my own and in no way reflects the opinion of the Joint Chiefs of Staff
Remember back in the day when cars had different keys for door, ignition, glove box and trunk, and your trunk key might fit another guy's door, your glove box key might fit another guy's ignition? Sounds pretty stupid today, and we use keys very different...but that was kind of a zero day exploit wasn't it?
Technology changes always hurt for a few years, and then they improve, and things are better. Vulnerabilities or flaws that last on the scale of five, ten, twenty years are horrifying for people in the computer industry...but they're kind of normal everywhere else.
I'll miss it, but as long as there is a failsafe in place for getting into the car with a dead battery, which most already have, all will be fine. I do worry, though, about the ability of some people to figure out how to turn the engine off in an emergency. The runaway Toyota business was quite pitiful...
The traditional key is just a security token that allows you to connect the electrical contacts that start and operator your car. Pushbutton start cars replace the security mechanism with something more modern. (Wireless short range, presumably encrypted communication)
Traditional car keys are easy to copy. It's an upside because you can do it at wal-mart for a couple of bucks. It's a downside because it's not really secure. Getting new keys with your pushbutton system involves a bunch of BS with your auto dealer and a non-trivial amount of money. I could see car makers using this issue as a wedge to milk customers when they need new/more keys, but a lot of modern mechanical car keys use special/exotic designs that aren't copy-able by anyone but the automaker anyway.
My new Prius has a pushbutton start and I really like it. At first it's weird not going through the ritual of messing with your keys to start your car. You just have the thing in your pocket. Touch the door handle, car unlocks. Sit down. Press button. Go. It's actually really convenient, particularly if your hands are full and you don't want to fish in your pockets.
The car does have a mechanical fallback so you can get in if the car is completely dead. The keyfob has a little metal key that slides out and can open the driver side door. That's it.
My car (2013 Fiat 500) uses an ignition key, but has no accessory position (which is REALLY annoying). It also stops cranking automatically - I cannot hold it in the crank position to keep it cranking.
Trust me, even if they keep the current key system, they'll find ways to remove user control.
As the owner of a 2004 Saturn Ion, I am so ready for the ignition key to go away. It is expensive and very difficult repair. I spent over $1000 twice to fix my ignition key. When an ignition key goes bad you need to fix much more then the lock and key. It will usually burn out the electronics, sometimes the starter motor, and you have to be careful to not damage the air bag. Another problem is that locksmith's rarely work at a repair shop so the repair will take longer because you need to go to 2 different locations.
Since when? Electrical systems can fail, too, and they can be just as poorly designed as poorly designed mechanical systems. Electrical is really only better for complex systems.
Instead of getting a replacement key for $12.99 now it will cost you $350 for a second key.
The Govt needs to step in and tell them that the MAX cost to customers can not exceed $40 for the transponder and PROGRAMMING fees together.
Honda rips people off with their keyless system $100 programming fee for their tech to spend less than 5 minutes with the tool plugged into my odb-II port.
GM wants in on the rip off action now as well.
Do not look at laser with remaining good eye.
In all honestly, the problem is the "ignition key system" not the starter which is what you are referring to. A push button ignition system moves the entire starter process to a computer controlled process, making it harder to do stupid things (like switching the engine off while it's running, putting it in park while in motion, etc)
Now, what this means is that if you have a problem starting the car, you will have to do something else if it's not starting properly, and that will likely involve opening the engine compartment to press a "manual start" button which is the equivalent of holding the key down. The button belongs here, because that's where the mechanic needs it.
As for emulating the functions of the ignition switch:
Press once and release with your foot on the brake to turn on
Press and hold for 4 seconds with no pedals down then release to go to accessory only
Press and hold for 4 seconds with your foot on the brake to keep trying to crank until the button is released.
The important reason for "+Brake" is because a kid who is in the car shouldn't be able to start the car by accident. Most kids under the age of 14 can't reach the pedals
In a newer engine, the computer controls all aspects of starting and running; timing, spark intensity, fuel quantity, mixture, etc. Holding down the key and cranking is no longer everything needed to start a cranky engine.
No, but sometimes it is an effective and useful diagnostic tool.
Oh, right, we're not supposed to work on our own vehicles anymore, how silly of me to forget.
An enigma, wrapped in a riddle, shrouded in bacon and cheese
One more target for EMP.
Seastead this.
I've driven a BMW 135, X1 with a push button start. And I hate them. Maybe it is different for other manufactures, but here's what happens:
1. I push the fob key into the slot, and I accidentally unlock the trunk.
2. I've got to push some dash start button, which seems to have some kind of timer control. It's not a temporary switch to the starter motor. You can just tap it and it will engage thee stater. I worry what happens when my fuel pump or battery is a few years older and it takes a little longer to start.
3. Turning off the key is another ceremony in hitting a button then pulling the fob out.
If they had it so inserting the fob one click was "acc" a 2nd clock was "on", and pushing it in was "start" for as long as I push it, along with just pulling the whole thing out was "off", where I can start and stop the car in one fluid motion, then we would have something. But I hate this "Japanese tea ceremony" of starting a vehicle. I've got it down to one motion with my tumbler key. I don't want that replaced with an inferior process.
Slashdot's rate-of-post filter: Preventing you from posting too many great ideas at once.
Same here!
With an ignition key, I know that I'm in control. If I step out of the car, I'd normally remove the keys (unless there were other passengers already) and do whatever I have to do before returning, knowing that my car would still be there. With the remote, even if I stepped out w/ it, leaving the car unlocked, anybody can just get in and drive some distance. Maybe he won't get far, but the damage would have been done.
In Europe, most cars use a key card system, if you remove the card from it's slot, the car won't drive.
That doesn't qualify as "reliable" in my book.
I agree, but you have to look at the type of morons that are having problems. They're the type that would screw-up an anvil. There's nothing you can build that one of those Republicans can't break. By removing the key, you're just switching from something with a well-known failure rate to something, that while it might have a lower failure rate, has a much harder set of symptoms to diagnose. Republicans already have enough problems just starting and driving a car. Imagine how much more trouble their kind will have learning a new system. There's a reason Republicans have stuck with Chevy and Buick garbage. They are unable to comprehend more advanced cars like Toyotas.
It wouldn't work because accessories have nothing to do with ignition. I'd assume it'd be like trying to push-start a car with the key in the accessory position, which will most certainly not allow spark to happen or (maybe) fuel to flow.
I like the standard keys. And really, just because one manufacturer happened to use a defective part, we lose them? Key switches have been around for decade and are reliable. Just fix the reliability issue in that one model and that's it.
It isn't one manufacturer. There have been over 20 million recalled vehicles due to ignition switch problems, from basically every manufacturer, over the last 30 years.
That doesn't qualify as "reliable" in my book.
Right, because it's not like there's ever been, nor ever will be an issue with push-button ignitions that may incite a recall of millions of vehicles, right?
Wrong.
FYI, contrary to the summary's baseless contention, "Electrical" is not always greater than "mechanical." Otherwise, parking brakes wouldn't still be engaged with steel cables.
An enigma, wrapped in a riddle, shrouded in bacon and cheese
You don't want a car completely reliant on the electrical system. Batteries freeze, cars rust (killing the ground), cars wind up flooded or driven into a lake, weather can produce unseen effects.
I for one, do not want to be in car like that after the electrical system has failed, and you can't even open the damn doors without electricity.
I want a car that I can push start if needed. In fact, the less "electrical" anything there is in a car, the less there is to go wrong.
When you go to a car show, I see a lot of cars from the 50's and 60's -- and you know what I'll see 30 years from now -- the same cars! You won't see "modern cars" sold as classics 30 years from now because once the computer in those cars dies, the car is a paperweight. Nothing works. The engine isn't even capable of running without all those sensors and computers.
I'm rebuilding a '69 beetle right now, and I'll tell you that there's a certain comfort in knowing that I know the entire car, bumper to bumper, there's no mystery about how it operates, and I can fix any piece of it, myself, with common hand tools.
If telephones are outlawed, then only outlaws will have telephones.
You lose the control. What if you want to crank for a while because it won't start?
We lost "control" decades ago with the advent of vacuum/RPM spark advance, it's been down hill from there.
Some things need to be automated, but once we got to this automatic transmission business I think it went too far. Most drivers today don't have a clue how their cars actually work, they just mash the peddles and turn the wheel. If they had just a little bit of an idea about how cars worked, they'd be a whole lot safer and able to *think* though common driving hazards. But I'll get off my soap box now..
"File to fit, pound to insert, paint to match" - Aircraft Maintenance 101
would anyone want that unsafe crap where even a child can start the car, let alone thieves...
I mean, up till now, auto makers have offered push-button keyless start as a premium option you had to pay extra for. My Hyundai Genesis Coupe, for example, had push-button start -- but it was a GT version of the car. The base models still had standard ignition keys.
Personally, I like the keyless start functionality, but I highly doubt it will prove any more reliable than ignition keys in the long run. These systems rely on the battery operated transponders on people's keyfobs, and IMO, those are the weak spot. A metal key is relatively hard to damage. If you manage to drop it in the toilet or sink or the swimming pool, it's going to be just fine. The transponders, not so much.
Of course, with the insane prices the dealers started asking for replacement keys with the digital computer security chips embedded in them, I guess people might be happy to see those disappear?
And, as far as your point of needing to crank it for a while, if that's the case, there are issues that need repairing, so it's not as if you're being deprived of some designed, intended function of the vehicle.
Unless, you live in a cold climate such as Fairbanks, Alaska during the the middle of winter and you stop at a shopping center which does not have electrical outlets for the block heater thus allowing your engine to cool to a nice refreshing -20 F. It does sometimes take a few extra cranks to get a gasoline engine to start, even if it is tuned and in working order.
Pushing the button with the fob in the dash and foot off the brake will turn on ignition and not crank the engine. Pressing it a second time will put the car in ACC mode. Pushing it with a foot on the brake starts the engine. At least that is how BMW does it.
I don't get how a push button is in any way superior to a turn key, if Ford and GM can't get a turn key working right in 70 years then just maybe it reflects on those companies more than the fundamental design. If you can't manage to turn a key then just maybe driving isn't for you.
I've never seen a car that has a problem with its ignition and while there was recently a scandal, the vast majority of cars never have this issue.
What is more, if all cars were push button ignition cars, I'm quite sure that more cars would statistically pop up that have a problem with their push button system.
I've decided to stop wasting my time responding to AC trolls/sockpuppets... so if you want a response from me... login.
Same here!
Not just your above points, but these remote controls now cost an arm and a leg, as opposed to the standard mechanical keys where you could buy duplicate or triplicate keys depending on how many you needed at reasonable prices.
SURE you can buy the key for under $25, but it's going to cost you $75 to have the dealer program the ECU or that key will not be able to start your car.
"File to fit, pound to insert, paint to match" - Aircraft Maintenance 101
Have gnu, will travel.
Even in newer cars, the crank action is bogus. For example, newer Fords, when you move the key to the start position and let go, it automatically cranks for a set duration, as opposed to turning the starter motor as long as you have it in that key position. So, essentially it is a push button start, but using the momentary position in "start" as pressing the button. However, turning the key back to "off" does kill the engine.
Personally, I'm neutral. On one hand, the Prius and Nissan keyfobs that just sit in a pocket are cool with one less thing to flip open. On the other hand, having to stick the physical key in the vehicle with a very low power transmitter handling the passive anti-theft access gives a bump in security.
i want an ignition key for my computer.
Except it doesn't control starting, unless the car is also offered with push-button start. There's still an ignition wire that completes a circuit with the starter. Don't believe me? Turn the key to start while the car is running. You'll be greeted with a pleasant grinding noise as your starter motor cries out in pain. Having said that, it certainly does the rest. If you're still having to crank has truly serious issues if the car can't compensate by adjusting something to correct the AFR, timing, etc.
It isn't one manufacturer. There have been over 20 million recalled vehicles due to ignition switch problems, from basically every manufacturer, over the last 30 years.
You say that like it's a lot. Shit, Ford alone beat that in one recall back in the 80s (ish...?)
# "The unavoidable price of reliability is simplicity"
-- C.A.R. Hoare
These are my friends, See how they glisten. See this one shine, how he smiles in the light.
Is it really an "advancement" of technology, if adding autorization credentials to my car (copying a key) costs $70 instead of $2? Tech advances usually cause things to get cheaper, not more expensive. I consider not-fully-mechanical keys to be a technological regression, since that's what the evidence (Home Depot cash register receipt) suggests.
Contrast that to your experience with hard disk and CPU tech advances. Electronic keys should cost ten cents to copy. ;-)
This line of thinking – mechanical keys are not perfect and sometimes don't work properly, therefore we must replace them with something else – fails to take into consideration that whatever we replace it with will also not be perfect and will also sometimes not work properly, especially in new and unexpected ways that we are not prepared for. Fact is, the mechanical ignition key is a pretty well-debugged piece of technology. It isn't fundamentally broken, and doesn't need to be "fixed" by throwing it out and hastily replacing it with something else, especially something without a century of usage behind it.
I'll be honest: I'm an old-fashioned person who liked having the ability to shut off a computer by physically opening the circuit that powered it (i.e. flipping a big crimson switch). As a tech, I get frustrated with equipment that has a "power button" that really only serves to put the device in low-power standby mode, such that turning it "off" and back "on" doesn't reinitialize it (requiring me to instead pull the power cable from the wall ... which only works if it doesn't have a battery). The "open the pod bay doors, Hal" approach doesn't give me warm fuzzies, mostly due to experience with the real world where new technology routinely fails to live up to the naïve expectations of the young and/or credulous.
http://alternatives.rzero.com/
Back in the cave era push button start was common (with separate key), though often it was on the floor. Progress eventually integrated the two into the key.
Only thing new is having the button push on a computer.
Sent from my PDP-11
Electrical trumps mechanical? Electrical systems ARE mechanical systems. The problem wasn't the failure of the key, the problem was that if the ignition system turned off, all of the cars safety system would fail. That's an inherent design flaw that would be dangerous irrelevant of how you started the car. What happens if the alternator failed and the battery died on the interstate? The same damned thing. The car should still be operable without electricity. That's your problem.
The year 1995 just called: "what's a manual transmission?"
Followed by - The year 2050 just called: "what's a transmission?"
Really, if you need to start your car, nothing beats that big old hand-crank over the front-bumper!
These are my friends, See how they glisten. See this one shine, how he smiles in the light.
We lost "control" decades ago with the advent of vacuum/RPM spark advance, it's been down hill from there.
Down hill as in easy. Each generation of cars have been more reliable. It was such a relief when I could finally afford my first fuel injected car. Sure, I can't fix it any more, because it doesn't break. I love to drive stick shift cars, but I don't delude myself into thinking I'm safer driving them. I'm not. Vrooom!
It does sometimes take a few extra cranks to get a gasoline engine to start, even if it is tuned and in working order.
The computer that controls ignition knows that too.
"Our two-party system is like a bowl of shit looking at itself in a mirror." - Lewis Black
In my Lexus, one press with foot off brake is accessory, two gets me the ignition/computer fired up. At any point even with the car totally off, depressing the brake and then touching the button fires it up (position 3). Also the engine in a no start condition will crank until it state or you take your foot off the brake.
Karnal
when you pry it from my cold dead ignition.
You doubleclick the button to get into the run position. L2REED dumbass.
Even most cars with keys work the same way as a button. Turn the key and release; the starter will continue to turn the engine until it starts. The key twist merely begins the engine start sequence. The powertrain computer takes over from there.
I have traveled internationally. Automobiles in Germany have a keyless ignition with push button start. If your fob is within proximity of the control panel, the button starts the engine. They have it in Ford, Mercedes, and BMW autos that I have rented. I liked the system.
Eternity: will that be smoking, or non-smoking? I Corinthians 6:9-10
That's weird. I love simplicity, but I also love being able to have a pump gas and race gas tune at my fingertips at any given moment. I can still pick up an ECU for my '89 RX-7 for less than fifty bucks, and for a bit more, I can pick up a nicely modified one. I'm not worried about computers controlling my engine, provided the factory tune isn't god-awful or doesn't do what I tell the car to do.
The first car I ever bought, like all the cars I've ever bought, was an old banger. Some kid had abused it for 10+ years and sold it on. Eventually it ended up a few years from permanent scrapping but was still roadworthy enough for me to buy.
It had "push-start" ignition. A previous owner had had the steering smashed in a theft and obviously just replaced the ignition with a push-button. You had to have the Ford electronic key touching the ignition slot so it could do the one-wire communications to the immobiliser, but it was "push-button start".
It worked. The car did 100,000 miles just while I had it.
By contrast, a car that a family member hired in Scotland had such a complicated "modern" ignition that you had to have this big plug-block of an ignition key (that had no metal connectors so was presumably RF-based), shove that into a cassette-shaped hole on the dash (that was entirely plastic), then hold down the brake pedal (with no indication of that being necessary or why, and it was a manual car), pressing a button on the control stalk to actually start the car. I once tried to move it for them and 30+ minutes later gave up and told them to do it themselves because I couldn't get the fucking car to start with all the proper "keys".
The problem is not push-button ignition. That's easy. The problem is drive-by-wire systems that think they know better than the driver and crap, untested designs. I'll happily take a car without an ignition key, or with RFID ignition or similar. Hell, I open my car with RFID (the first car above actually had IR-based remote central locking), starting it with the same is no big deal. What I won't take is a car that will cut off the engine while it's running without my express instruction to do so, or one that pisses about when I have all the keys and I can't figure out how to start it in a hurry with the given instructions.
Push-button ignitions are the toys of the 90's boy racer. There's nothing special there. The tech that people hate is the crap where you take vital mechanical and electrical interfaces away from the driver and replace them with indirect interfaces that rely on everything working perfectly.
The ignition key connects 12V to the starter motor, and a few other systems. One relay can do that. One button / RFID reader / whatever can initiate that. What's more important is to make it as direct as possible, without some computer deciding to override it just because there's been a buffer overflow in its handling of a DAB radio station, or whatever.
Ah, but you do have the control you speak of, just in a different way.
In my experience if you press the button without triggering the appropriate safety interlock (brake or clutch) the car goes in to "on" mode without starting the engine. I can say for sure this works on Kias and Fords, no idea on others.
I would be tempted to assume that push starting works the same way, but I can not confirm as the only manual push button start vehicle I've driven was a test drive in a Focus ST with the salesman in the back seat.
Cranking longer just seems to happen as necessary. My housemate's Optima will pull a 5-7 second crank on a cold morning with just a press of the button.
I used to get high on life, but I developed a tolerance. Now I need something stronger.
Same here!
With an ignition key, I know that I'm in control. If I step out of the car, I'd normally remove the keys (unless there were other passengers already) and do whatever I have to do before returning, knowing that my car would still be there. With the remote, even if I stepped out w/ it, leaving the car unlocked, anybody can just get in and drive some distance. Maybe he won't get far, but the damage would have been done.
In Europe, most cars use a key card system, if you remove the card from it's slot, the car won't drive.
Really? Most cars? I don't think so. Maybe most high-end cars but get in to a cheap hatchback be it European or not in Europe and you'll have a key start.
Yes, I was referring specifically to cars where the computer is already in full control of the engine, including starting with a push button. As is TFA.
John
it's not as if you're being deprived of some designed, intended function of the vehicle.
Let's have a computer analogy. I write a piece of software that can fail in some known way (say, it can't open a file containing a cache of previously-retrieved information). Instead, it warns of the error, re-retrieves the information, and continues operation (essentially with a 0% cache hit rate). I release a new version that fails the operation if it can't open the cache. I'll receive complaints from customers. Similarly, extended crank time is a warning of impending trouble, but allows the vehicle to be used at a degraded level of operation. Proper handling of failure modes most certainly *is* "designed, intended function", and if you flub it, then you deserve the complaints you get.
It is pitch black. You are likely to be eaten by a grue.
I have an unpopular theory that things should be as simple as possible, and specifically as purely mechanical or purely electronic as possible. The mixture of both gets me worried.
In general a computer is most advanced when it has no moving parts: no fan, no spinning disk. Keys are okay, but not on a smartphone.
On the other hand, I would rather advances in cars be mechanical, not electronical. It amazes me how little cars of the same size and shape have improved in miles per gallon over the decades. A 2014 Volkswagen Golf gets 39 MPG, but a 1982 Volkwagen Golf got 37 (http://www.fuelly.com/car/volkswagen/golf).
A lot of this can be chalked up to my first car being a 10-year-old 1985 Oldsmobile, full of automatic but old features, which all failed. My second car was stick shift, crank windows, etc., on purpose. Simpler is fewer things to break, to go on the fritz, to flake out, and to be expensively repaired.
What if the battery is completely dead and you want to roll start it? I'm for keyless cars; I'm just playing devils advocate.
Are you ready for an era where the ignition key doesn't exist?
Before this we had:
Are you ready for an era where the hand crank doesn't exist?
And before this we had:
Are you ready for an era where the horse doesn't exist?
I have a feeling we'll get through it.
(all?) cars still use those goddammed thermoelectric switches to control the flashing of turn signals?
Yes, but why don't they use the same concept. A knob. There have been cases when I want to move from 2 to 1 without turning everything off, and it seems like I cannot do that.
Get a replacement ignition/key and simply carry one of each(door/ignition key).
In fact some 'luxury brands', notably buick and cadillac, as well as some GM vehicles used to come with that setup as standard.
So my first two keyless cars were nice, Nissan, and reliable. However, I must state something here - except for GM's more than obvious mistake, keys don't generally fail that badly. In the case of my Nissan Cube, when it hit 3 years old and around 40k miles, I had a key die on it. This wasn't covered by the warranty, and I had to replace it. Then I had to hit the dealer for them to program it. The only time I have to deal with the dealer on key issues before was when I lost a key and had to re-train a smart-key with the car, and the pricing of the pure-electronic keys is not friendly. My lost Nissan key was replaced for $80 on eBay, plus $50 a the dealer to program it. My co-worker who just lost his 2009 Mazda CX-9 keycard, and who's second key is flaky, is now looking at a combination of smart-key and physical chip-key replacement, times two - that's $500 just for the two keys themselves, plus $100 from the dealer to program it all up. These keycards from the dealer are $450 each, and just like tires, you can't drive without them. Ouch! I like my car's key. It's something that can be replaced and doesn't cost like someone stole all four of your tires.
Make sure you use the correct hand so you don't break your wrist.
But it's :q without saving, :w! with saving, and/or shift-ZZ. Just to be sure, press esc twice first. If your terminal uses a difference escape sequence, please RTFM.
Have a very dandy day!
"we know electrical trumps mechanical more often than not"
We do? In what sense? A mechanical switch is simply a mechanically activated contact plate/circuit. That's as simple as it gets, really. Sure, you've got mechanical wear and tear, but mechanical items have progressive wear, often - their failure mode is not immediate unless it is a catastrophic failure.
Mechanical/electrical switches for ignition have one/two failure modes: your car won't start, or your car will stop. The second is drastically less likely than the first, and applies to almost every motorized vehicle, ever. It hasn't exactly been a major concern.
A simple mechanism is inherently less likely to fail than a complex one performing the same task. Good systems people know this: cyclomatic complexity is bad.
From what I'm understanding, 'switchgate' is merely the failure of the electronics associated with the mechanical switch, and circumvented safety measures.
This sounds a lot like the many lines of bullshit we've been fed by various government and corporate bodies, in the past. They're pushing this shit through regardless, using something they fucked up for an excuse to fix it with something nobody wants. (My recollection is that the 'complaints' have largely revolved around the $200+ chipped keys automotive makers have been using, after all... We don't hate the keys, we hate electronic meddling -unubtrusively- with our mechanical devices (ie cars).)
Basically, automakers just want more control of your vehicle, and the revenue stream which results from fixing it.
(Side note: Remember when they said electronics would reduce the cost and maintenance on vehicles, in the late 1980s/early 1990s? That was true, in so far as the cheap stuff that broke was often replaced. But they're replacing everything with electronics now, and so many of the things that should not be 'electronic' (ie just need a simple electrical signal to work), are.
~/ssh slashdot.org ssh: connect to host slashdot.org port 22: too many beers
Every dangerous activity - like hurtling along at 70mph - should have a physical kill switch. Not a button that you hope the firmware will read in due time, but an actual way to "turn off" the engine physically.
A friend of mine worked in one of the Cadillac dealerships when the first all-electric locks were a luxury item. he tells the story of the guy driving into the dealership and tapping on his window and saying "help, get me out" There was a puff of smoke from under the hood and his doors would not unlock. It may have simply been a
More serious, we had a case quite a few years ago where a large vat of molten metal was supposed to tilt sideways until it poured into the waiting ladle. The vat kept turning until it poured the entire load all over the floor. the mess had to be jack-hammered up and the damage was substantial. The cause was traced to a firmware failure, the network control system was busy and failed to receive the stop signal.
Every serious mechanical device should have a physical override to ensure it can be stopped even if the software fails. Anyone who's seen any science fiction movie since "2001" came out knows this.
My dads 1950's car had a push button start, welcome to nostalgia.
Obvious troll is obvious.
The year 2014 called. Manual transmissions still exist. Also every electric car has a transmission.
Actual evidence disagrees with you. Those things that have made it possible to not know as much about what your car is doing, which you say have contributed to a lack of safety, have been a contributor to an impressive decline in automotive deaths and injuries.
That's not to say that things couldn't be better than they are... but you're full of it if you think the situation was better when cars were less complicated.
I think those are the last two wagon manufacturers that still have a 6 speed in them.
Somebody correct me if I'm misinformed.
What about hybrid cars? What about electric cars?
What if you want to crank for a while because if won't start? So you know what's best for the engine, not the computer that's controlling the ignition and fuel?
I suppose you wish there was still a choke level to pull out when you're cold starting too.
It's true that today's engines are much more complex, but this also means they are much more sophisticate: today all new cars have to comply with very strict emission and fuel efficiency standards, which means you basically can't do without electronic fuel injection.
That's correct, but the same system also has lots of other complex behaviours which could cause confusion.
How do you turn the car off but leave the radio on for the passenger - e.g. at a gas station?
A: Come to a stop. Put the transmission in neutral. Press start/stop button. Engine turns off, and the power system is switched to "accessories" mode.
Q: How do you turn the power off completely?
A: Put transmission in Park. Then press start/stop button
Q: What if I want to turn the power off and leave the car in neutral e.g. for maintenance?
A: You have to switch into Park first. The press start/stop. Then use the transmission shift override to select Neutral.
Q: How do you turn the car off in an emergency - e.g. stuck accelerator pedal?
A: You can't just press start/stop, as the vehicle speed sensor inhibits the button, so you can't turn off the ignition whilie the vehicle is moving. This isn't even in the manual. However, pressing and holding start/stop for 10 seconds will cause the ignition to turn off completely. This is a surprisingly long time in an emergency. In fact, in several "unintended acceleration" episodes, the drivers said they tried to turn off the push-button ignition, but couldn't turn it off.
Q: How do you give a prolonged crank, if the car fails to start (e.g. poor fuel, or cold weather)?
A: You have to let the computer attempt 3 failed starts. After that, the behaviour of the start/stop sequence changes. After the 3rd attempt, a momentary push of the button, will make the computer crank the engine for up to 30 seconds, for as long as the brake pedal remains depressed.
It has a permanent "key" type knob with positions 1,2,3. 3 only works if the key is in proximity.
Your whole post screamed of typical Ludditism but then I saw the note about rebuilding a Beetle. You're one of those guys. Move along readers, there's nothing to see here!
All of the cars I've owned with electrical gizmos in doors could still be opened manually, and with a key from the outside if the battery was dead.
Even your Beetle still has to have a working distributor, coil and alternator to push start with a dead battery.
I do miss working on my own cars though. When I was a grad student in the 1970's I had no money so I did everything - honed out master cylinders, tuneups, water pumps, put in a manual choke because the heat riser rusted out yadda yadda yadda. Of course once I got a job I didn't have time to do this crap.
Now that I'm retired I do have some time, but I work on small engines now because cars - well they just aren't as rewarding. When you are retired 5000 miles is a year's worth of driving, and spark plugs now last 100,000 miles. Do the math.
The traditional key in ignition device is mixing two distinct functions: authentication and mode selection.
The link between the two and the mechanics of the failed device contributed to the problem. Wireless electronic proximity isn't necessary.
What is necessary is a simple reliable device for authentication, a key which is turned to allow other functions to operate. For instance, keys used for industrial or military controls for this purpose. They look like ordinary keys, not the large vehicle keys now common.
Then the selection of ignition mode is entirely separate, and turning to "off" or "accessory" which disengages hydraulics and safety systems while the vehicle is in motion should be disallowed.
When you get your ignition key fails the way that GM ignitions fail it will cost way more than $12.99. I have wasted $2000 in repair money for my faulty GM ignition key. If the key gets stuck it will burn out electronics and the starter motor.
... and how easily it is to do incorrectly. Mechanical doesn't have to mean "bad."
and a system that turns on the starter until it detects firing and turns it off if it's been on too long to prevent damage won't work?
Starter motors can draw up to 1000 amps. It's a good thing to not leave it cranking for too long.
It will damage the battery and overheat the starter motor.
If I step out from my car, I know no one can drive off because it won't start without the smart card I keep in my wallet inside the vehicle.
Even if I leave it running, I know as soon as the car is turned off it can't be turned back on.
If I leave the car on and get out, it beeps at me when I close to door. To lock it I'd need to do so manually. It's impossible to leave my car in a state where anyone can drive off in it without being notified.
Step 1: Sell your Toyota
Table-ized A.I.
As long as they install a key-holder in a convenient spot. :-)
Dear Slashdot: next time you want to mess with the site, add a rich-text editor for comments.
Are you ready for an era where the ignition key doesn't exist?
If you aren't ready for advancements in technology then what are you doing reading this website?
Seriously.
Are we talking about "advancements", or actually useful changes?
Just because Marketing says it's an advancement doesn't make it true.
Personally, I'm neutral. On one hand, the Prius and Nissan keyfobs that just sit in a pocket are cool with one less thing to flip open. On the other hand, having to stick the physical key in the vehicle with a very low power transmitter handling the passive anti-theft access gives a bump in security.
There's no transmitter in my key. You're thinking of the RFID keys, which are pretty good security: coupled with a decent quality alarm with multiple immobilizers it makes a car pretty much unstealable unless you have a flatbed.
But there's no reason you can't simply put the RFID into the alarm keyfob instead of the key. In fact, most of the pushbutton starters I've seen in recent years work exactly like that -- there's an RFID in your keyfob, and if you don't have the keyfob in your pocket (or within a few feet of the car), the car simply won't start. If the car gets out of range of the keyfob, it'll trip the fuel line immobilizer.
I was driving down the street and noticed something odd about the car in front of me... the keys were dangling off the back of the trunk! We came to a red-light and I hopped out and tapped on the woman's window.
She was rather startled but I put on my most innocent face and she rolled down her window a little and I said "Miss, sorry for startling you but your car keys are dangling off the back of your trunk!". She did a double take and then realized that it was true! Her button ignition switch had worked because the keys just happened to be 'close enough'.
I said "wait a moment, I'll get them for you now" (I didn't want to get them first because she might have driven off and would then not have had her keys at all). I went to the back, got the keys, and handed them to her through the window. She smiled and said thank you.
I went back to my car and managed to get my seatbelt back on and ready to go before the light turned green again.
True story :-)
-Matt
Same here!
With an ignition key, I know that I'm in control. If I step out of the car, I'd normally remove the keys (unless there were other passengers already) and do whatever I have to do before returning, knowing that my car would still be there. With the remote, even if I stepped out w/ it, leaving the car unlocked, anybody can just get in and drive some distance. Maybe he won't get far, but the damage would have been done.
In Europe, most cars use a key card system, if you remove the card from it's slot, the car won't drive.
Really? Most cars? I don't think so. Maybe most high-end cars but get in to a cheap hatchback be it European or not in Europe and you'll have a key start.
Renault isn't high end and it won't start if it doesn't detect it's card in the passenger compartment.
When I read this post, I almost rejoiced, because I thought this recall would finally cover my 2005 Impala's ignition problems. Sadly, the only thing that makes GM issue a recall is a series of deaths and crashes, so my car won't make the list until I'm dead or bloody.
Anyone considering a GM with an electronic ignition should take seriously the Passlock fiasco, which was never resolved. Hundreds of thousands of consumers, myself included, own otherwise perfectly working cars with one serious flaw: cheap ignitions that were tied directly to the Passlock security system. When the cheap ignition switches started to oxidize even slightly, we were locked out.
The lucky ones could sit for 15 minutes with the key turned forward, which trips the security system and allows the car to start (once or twice before needing another 15 minute reprogramming).
Replace the ignition switch you say? Unfortunately, about a year later (often sooner), the switch oxidizes and the problem returns. Dealers charge thousands for any action (replace the switch, or bypass the security). I eventually tracked down a repairman who knew the problem and was able to wire in a capacitor that tricks the security into always thinking a key was present. I can't wait to see how their fully electronic systems work after about 5 years.
Umm they don.t
My Traverse plays a clicking noise through the speakers to let you know the turn signals are on.
If you think it's expensive to hire a professional to do the job, wait until you hire an amateur. --Red Adair
Or individual switches like an airplane. accessories on, fuel pump on, main power on, engine start
What if you want to switch it to position 2 and push-start a manual transmission car?
... then you push the button twice without your foot on the brake. It goes to run mode just like the second detent of a traditional key. Pressing once goes to accessory mode. More presses simply cycles between accessory...run...off.
Good thing I learned Morse code to get my ham license so that can tap the button appropriately.
I've been driving for 40+ years. Dozens of cars; cheap cars, expensive cars, foreign and domestic. Never one problem with an ignition key or switch. I've driven two keyless cars; 50% of them are unreliable. You don't mandate abandonment of a simple, effective, inexpensive part - you mandate that the manufacturer not cut corners until failures begin.
Of course, this is all academic - the REAL reason is a step towards a mandated remote shutdown system.
Step 1: Sell your Toyota
While it's flying down the highway out of control?
Slow down, cowboy! It has been 4 hours since you last posted. You must wait another few hours.
With the Tesla you simply walk up to the vehicle with the proximity fob. The car unlocks and you get in and drive. No key. No button. The On/Off switch is the lever on the steering wheel column you use to put it in drive, reverse and park. When you get out of the car and walk away, it locks itself. You can also use a mobile app to lock/unlock, warm up car etc...
After a year the only problem we ever have is leaving the engine running and walking away from our gasoline car because you get so used to how the Tesla works.
Greed is the root of all evil.
The mechanic doesn't need a physical button.
They use buttons on the diagnostic software they buy/rent from the manufacturer. You can't do too much without it these days anyway, regardless of a push button ignition or not.
I never claimed the automation didn't help safety or should be omitted. I said people should be trained a bit more about how a car works as part of driver training.
One way to do that is to break out the manual transmission and learn how to stop on hills. They should be taken out to skid tracks and learn how a car handles on slick surfaces too. A few induced skids and recoveries would go far, as would knowing how ABS feels when it's working. Why? Because the drivers that know how to recognize the performance limits of what they are driving and what to do when they exceeded these limits are the safest. All the automation in the world can't help you once you have the wheels skidding, but there just MIGHT be lots of options left that could avoid an accident.
Personally, I learned how to drive in a 56 Chevy Pickup truck in the fields and learned what sliding sideways was and how to control it when out feeding the cows in the snowy winter fields. This experience has saved me from accidents more than once and gave me the skills to be out safely driving when the other loonies where stuck in their driveways.
"File to fit, pound to insert, paint to match" - Aircraft Maintenance 101
Q: How do you turn the car off in an emergency - e.g. stuck accelerator pedal?
A: You can't just press start/stop, as the vehicle speed sensor inhibits the button, so you can't turn off the ignition whilie the vehicle is moving. This isn't even in the manual. However, pressing and holding start/stop for 10 seconds will cause the ignition to turn off completely. This is a surprisingly long time in an emergency. In fact, in several "unintended acceleration" episodes, the drivers said they tried to turn off the push-button ignition, but couldn't turn it off.
Turning the ignition off should be your last option. Your first is to shift the vehicle into neutral, pull over and stop, then shut the vehicle off.
Improve (regulate) the minimum quality of ignition switches. I'm sure there have been problems in other components as well. Are they looking for drastic replacements in those components? No?
The problem with the start button is that it leads conveniently to a big brother technology similar to the government controlled kill-switch for smartphones. I don't think many drivers want intrusion from even car manufacturers let alone the government.
I find old cars uncomfortable, inefficient, and outright dangerous. Some do look nice, but this is definitely not enough to ignore their disadvantages. Old cars are for car shows, just like the Commodore 64 and the Apple II belong to a museum. Also, you don't see many cars from the 70ies-80ies in car shows, just like you don't see any computers from the 90ies in museums: because both are outdated crap that are not exceptional in any way to give them merit for having around. Right now we are at a technological limit (both in cars as in computers). We need to reach the new generation of automobiles (self-driving, fully electric and who knows what else?) so that the pioneering cars of the new era can become the classics in 40-50 years time. I'm sure the first fully-electric car to become affordable and drivable under realistic conditions will become the VW-Beetle of that new generation. The Prius will be more like the Model-T, or something. And yes, your VW-Beetle will still be in the car show, sitting next to the Model-T on its left and the Toyota Prius (or similar) to its right, and maybe the Bugatti Veyron (or similar) on the opposite side portraying the peak of the mechanical technology. Because they will be all exceptional for their era, either as pioneers or as high-points. But everything in between? Total junk.
A good mechanic/lock smith could have assembled a new ignition lock with the correct tumblers, so your old key would fit.
I was promised a flying car. Where is my flying car?
It was called Remote Start. I had one installed in my 1996 Taurus. Worked great, from over a 1/4 mile way.
Yes, I had to put the key in or it would stop the engine when the brake pedal was pressed, which was necessary to take the transmission out of Park.
Can't be that hard to do today, most of the systems I've seen are based on transponder remotes that have to be inside the car to start it by button.
deleting the extra space after periods so i can stay relevant, yeah.
FYI, contrary to the summary's baseless contention, "Electrical" is not always greater than "mechanical." Otherwise, parking brakes wouldn't still be engaged with steel cables.
They aren't. Mine isn't.
Diesels aside, where are you gonna get the juice to run the ignition system if the battery's totally dead? And for that matter, the fuel pump? I doubt the engine is gonna spin the alternator fast enough while push-starting to run those things, and even if it does, that dead battery is gonna be soaking up pretty much everything it produces for the first several minutes, leaving little or nothing for the rest of the car's systems to run on.
Push-starting is meant for temporarily dealing with dead, worn, or damaged starters or maybe a flywheel that's suddenly become stripped out. Get a jumpstarter pack and some cables if you're dealing with a dead battery.
Better to have a switch to tell it to turn on.
It's universal except for the newer cars.
I love to drive stick shift cars, but I don't delude myself into thinking I'm safer driving them. I'm not.
I am, however.
Support my political activism on Patreon.
In a manual transmission vehicle the power steering and power brakes will continue to provide assistance as long as the vehicle is in gear since the wheels will drive the engine through the transmission.
Have you ever had to depower an electrical device - blu-ray player, computer, laptop, hell, even my Onkyo receiver - to force it to reboot?
If your answer is yes, you should absolutely reject this keyless idea for reasons that should be utterly self-evident.
And, while we're at it, let's remember that the alternatives here aren't the Hobson's choice of "mechanical key that failed" vs "much more reliable electronic system".
The fact is that if they were motivated to do so, carmakers could very well design a much more failure-proof mechanical key. They just would have to actually invest in it, instead of driving every mechanical part to the minimum-functional substance to the point where it fails, and then backing off by 0.0001%.
-Styopa
It's electrical too. Just like a key switch is both mechanical and electrical. They're both devices for converting mechanical actions into conductive connections.
The difference between the two is that a good key switch is harder to design. It's got to deal with the ham-handed people who line the key up approximately and jam it in -- some people have a light touch with machines, others don't. It's also got to deal with the folks who put a quarter pound of keys and assorted novelty items on their keychains.
Post may contain irony: discontinue use if experiencing mood swings, nausea or elevated blood pressure.
RFID cards and chips, not so much. way more expensive the way car companies do it.
if this is supposed to be a new economy, how come they still want my old fashioned money?
If you have to push the brake pedal down all the way to trigger the 'keep cranking until start' mode, you couldn't pop-start since the car wouldn't be moving :)
Flipside: I can't remember what car it was on, but I'm pretty sure I've pop started a keyless manual transmission car before. You put it into accessory or 'on' mode, roll and pop and depending on model/manufacturer goes 'Oh hey, this looks like a popstart, trying running the ignition'. It depends on the car though and what the requirements are to trigger the fuel pump, injectors, and ignition.
Hopefully somebody with access to Mitchell, Alldata, or a manufacturer's online service manual can verify this.
I am 40 something and I remember the reliability of old cars was crap. If it didn't run out of power there were a hundred other reasons it wouldn't start it the body hadn't already completely rusted off. I will take a new car over an old one any day.
love is just extroverted narcissism
What could possibly go wrong with an object traveling 65mph, and you can not turn it off? Ignition Switch Failure? Never heard of it.
I agree, but you have to look at the type of morons that are having problems... There's nothing you can build that one of those Republicans can't break... Republicans already have enough problems just starting and driving a car... There's a reason Republicans have stuck with Chevy and Buick garbage. They are unable to comprehend more advanced cars like Toyotas.
Just out of curiosity, do you have any actual evidence that this is specifically a Republican problem, or are you just blowing smoke out your ass? I mean, you wouldn't just make shit up just for polemical effect, would you?
I for one welcome our Keyless Hacker Thief Overlords and their sound rule of "No car for you, wireless n00b!"
-- Tigger warning: This post may contain tiggers! --
As long as you can still pop the clutch with a dead battery.
Another reason I like having an older car with a plain old stainless steel non electronic key. I can just hang it around my neck under my wetsuit when I go surfing and leave the car locked.
Those with newer cars are hiding their keys in wheelwells etc while hoping nobody nefarious is watching, or having to use annoying lockboxes to put their keys in.
Probably not a big deal for the average slashdotter though.
Now, my car is an automatic, so I have not tried the roll/start on a manual transmission with a push button ignition, but it seems to me that with all of the accessories and instrumentation turned on, I don't see why it wouldn't work.
That might work if the battery at least had enough juice to power the accessories. If it was really dead, it most likely wouldn't recognize your button pushes, so it wouldn't know it was in position 2.
If you are not allowed to question your government then the government has answered your question.
With the remote, even if I stepped out w/ it, leaving the car unlocked, anybody can just get in and drive some distance.
How are they going to start it when your remote is not within "seeing" distance?
If you are not allowed to question your government then the government has answered your question.
"but we know electrical trumps mechanical more often than not." When it comes to cars, this statement is completely false. It is actually the exact opposite. Electronic vs mechanical has been the underlying problem to 90% of car malfunctions. Too many things have been converted to an electronic version that is now vastly inferior to its mechanical counterpart. The only reason it's done is because it's cheaper. These dipshit vehicle engineers keep throwing more garbage on the cars that we don't need, delivering a worse product each year that is prone to more and more unnecessary malfunctions. Sometimes the old simple and solid method is just better and should be left alone. To all vehicle engineers....fuck you...try working on and actually having to fix all the stupid shit you people keep coming up with.
Well, you can't wait until after it crashes. I hear the value takes a serious dive at that point.
Peter predicted that you would "deliberately forget" creation 2000 years ago...
Key switches have been around for decade and are reliable.
You clearly have never owned a Saturn. (In their defense, this WAS the only thing that failed on the car in 10 years and only cost $35 to replace.)
Peter predicted that you would "deliberately forget" creation 2000 years ago...
I can get extra keys for both our care for a few bucks each. Replacement RFID fobs are horribly overpriced from most dealers, and some require you to re-key the car.
The new generation of cars these days is doing a good job of showing that less can be more. Less crap to break. After all, I generally just want to get to work and back, and don't need an infotainment system, or even power windows. But I am an unabashed Luddite.
With my wife's hybrid, pressing the button with your foot off the brake turns on accessories. Press the button with your foot on the brake "turns on" the engine. IC engine ignition, obviously, isn't under the manual control of the driver, but otherwise it's not that different from a conventional car.
Log in or piss off.
Consider the OP is about Chevrolet pieces of shit which are almost 90% owned by white trash who vote Republican more than 95% of the time, yes I would say there is no need to defend the GP's claim. It is obvious. This is because Republicans are too stupid to correctly insert and ignition key. They are so stupid then can screw anything up.
Big fat fucking citation needed on the baseless bullshit about electrical vs mechanical trotted out in the summary please?
That sounds good to me. May I also suggest "reheat on" and "arm missiles". Sorry, it's a tough commute.
If you are not allowed to question your government then the government has answered your question.
Here is what it could look like:
http://www.adrenalin-pedstop.c...
If Pandora's box is destined to be opened, *I* want to be the one to open it.
The reason for failure was that there were multiple indents for positions and the key could be torqued in a way which changed ignition mode. A key & lock which does not need to be a mode selector need not have these problems. For instance, a dash-mounted lock with a key whose positions are 180 degrees apart.
. If you're still having to crank has truly serious issues if the car can't compensate by adjusting something to correct the AFR, timing, etc.
It's funny, because I've had the car do exactly the wrong thing. My car would start normally most every time, except maybe once every couple of months I could crank and crank and it wouldn't turn over until I stopped and tried again after a few seconds. Ultimately turned out to be a recall on the PCM where things were so bad that in fact it could stall the engine on the interstate in certain scenarios (never happened to me). Ever since recall, been no problems to crank.
XML is like violence. If it doesn't solve the problem, use more.
That's one thing that really sucks about modern cars. Since the control timing, fuel injection and all that stuff, you now absolutely MUST have some electricity in order to run. In the old days, once the car was started, you could disconnect the battery and it would hum right along. Now, if you do that, it will either just die, or possibly destroy something valuable and then die.
If you are not allowed to question your government then the government has answered your question.
The more drive-by-wire horseshit I see on cars, the more I appreciate my 100% analog, 100% mechanical 1964 Buick. If it goes a bit wrong, I can FIX IT. Usually with a screwdriver, by adjusting a screw or prying on something a bit.
By contrast my truck is a modern diesel marvel of computer engineering. If it goes wrong (and it does, oh yes) I take it to the dealership and hope they can figure it out. Sometimes they can't, and they spend hours searching the web and calling the factory dudes. Good thing there's a warranty, eh? Because the suite of electronic test gear to troubleshoot the five or more computers on the truck costs a lot of money. Ain't no little OBDII reader going to get that done.
There are some things computers are awesome for. Engine control by computer is one of them. Better mileage, better power, better everything.
Some things they SUCK at. Door locks and ignition locks by computer is begging for trouble. If your battery goes flat (and it will, oh yes) you cannot get in unless there's a -mechanical- door lock. Not to mention people hacking your codes, reverse engineering the locks, etc.
I think it would be worth it for manufacturers to upgrade to a better mechanical lock for sure, but the key lock will never die so long as cars use batteries that can fail.
A better question would be "did the ignition key on GM cars just die". And the answer would still be no.
Direct fuel injection, ABS/ESC/antispin, more advanced engine controls (today including ignition and injection timing, tomorrow maybe replacing the cam?), AC, etc. are all nice things. The make the car safer and more efficient, with very few downsides except making it more complicated to repair. ESC is actually quite fantastic - selectively applying brakes to single wheels to point the car in the direction commanded by the driver, not something really possible to do by a human in real-time (to many buttons, not enough appendages).
However, the gearbox didn't *go away* - it's just basically just another layer of stuff on top of a system which is very much there. For electric cars which doesn't have a transmission, a forward/backward type selector makes sense. Not so much when propelled by an IC.
Oh, and yes, it is very nice to be able to disconnect the torque from the wheels, and to downshift/upshift as *I* like, as I have information the computer/hydraulics does not have.
I don't know about that; I hear they are worth more as parts.
Table-ized A.I.
Electronics in my experience do great for a few years and then die requiring a replacement.
Mechanical items made with good quality out of metal often last *DECADES* or even longer.
Sure mechanical made out of plastic fails. Electronics might last longer if they were made heavier grade but they are made as cheap as possible too.
She was like chocolate when she drank... semi-sweet at first and then increasingly bitter.
..."Electrical" is not always greater than "mechanical." Otherwise, parking brakes wouldn't still be engaged with steel cables.
You're obviously unaware that many cars are moving away from mechanically-activated parking brakes, in favor of electronically-activated. See this gear selector for the 2014 Acura RLX Sport Hybrid for one example:
http://media.caranddriver.com/images/media/554518/2014-acura-rlx-sport-sh-awd-hybrid-gear-selector-and-electronic-parking-brake-photo-554550-s-520x318.jpg
P-R-N-D are the usual park, reverse, neutral, drive selections...then "sport" is a shifting mode. Pull up on ght "(P)" to activate the parking brake (press on the accelerator to deactivate). The "brake hold," when enabled (can be disabled via that button) will, after you come to a stop, keep the brakes form releasing until you press the accelerator to tell the car you want it to start moving again. Prevents accidental rolling back/forward into other cars or intersections, etc.
http://www.honda.com/newsandviews/article.aspx?id=7506-en
A physical key still opens a door, even when the battery is dead.
Both my electronic keys have failed after 8 years, but the metal key still works. The mechanical touch switches gradually failed. One failed by having the elastomeric cover break open and fall off and the other just stopped the "open" function, though "lock works".
None of this would be so bad until you get the cost to replace an 8 year old pair of keys. To say I went ballistic would be putting it mildly.
Give me a metal key any day.
A friend drove his 4wd to a nice spot, jumped in the creek...oops electronics drowned. At least the mechanical key let him back in to wait for help, but if you are dependent on an electronic key it ought to be more robust, especially on an expensive (mis)adventure vehicle. I think we still need mechanical backup as I have seen more show-stopper electrical failures - mech tends to wear slowly showing signs something should be fixed when convenient; electrics like to just stop when least convenient.
If you don't need to use the metal every day it could also be made smaller which would be nice, just check that it still works regularly because a broken backup isn't worth the weight.
Q: How do you turn the car off in an emergency - e.g. stuck accelerator pedal?
A: You can't just press start/stop, as the vehicle speed sensor inhibits the button, so you can't turn off the ignition whilie the vehicle is moving. This isn't even in the manual. However, pressing and holding start/stop for 10 seconds will cause the ignition to turn off completely. This is a surprisingly long time in an emergency. In fact, in several "unintended acceleration" episodes, the drivers said they tried to turn off the push-button ignition, but couldn't turn it off.
Karnal was talking about Lexuses--maybe this is a recent change, but you only need to hold the button for 3 seconds to turn the engine off. Or press it 3 times in a row. See, for example, page 484 of the 2012 ES 350 Owner's Manual. It's similar in Nissans... hold for more than 2 seconds, or press 3 times within 1.5 seconds (page 6-2 of the 2013 Altima Owner's Manual.
Even though they knew HD was possible, and better, they convinced many of us to buy libraries full of our favorite movies in DVD format...which they knew we would then replace with BluRay. Running headlong towards the latest fad or "next big thing" is often ill-advised. Thanks Slashdot for a bit of sorely needed skepticism from time to time.
The USA is only 4X older than me...perspective
The tradeoff is that you get really lousy results from crashing one of those old cars.
With newer vehicles the "cranking because it won't start" isn't an option even with a key. The ECU handles that entirely so you don't even have a chance at burning out the starter.
I don't know everything.
its just the car companies keep their computers secret. if they open sourced the design then people could replace the chips.
Some models have moved to electric parking brakes.
You must have been real unlucky with your choices! I've always driven old (read as 10 to 20 years old, late 90's to late 80's) cars at high mileage. My current one is 14 years old 110000 miles and still going strong but even that has cost money...Sadly all electrical fixes (ABS Unit (£300), ECU (£200)) oh yeah, a spring broke once (£20 and an hour)!!!
GM can poke their electric keys and all the other useless shite modern cars have built into them to make life easier for lazy incompetent fools. I'll stick with my nuts and bolts thanks!
Small hint key fobs are like watches and need new batteries every 3-5 years.
i thought once I was found, but it was only a dream.
As long as the push start systems have the ability to remove a key from the fob and remove the push button to reveal a manual key entry to circumvent the push start system then yes. That gives both worlds and a way to start the car in the event everything related to the push start system fails. That's how my car works now and how every other car I know of works when it has a keyless start.
Several of the farm tractors I was familiar with as a kid had a toggle switch for the ignition/electrical circuits, and a separate pushbutton to engage the starter motor.
In retrospect, combining everything into one switch to rule them all may not have been such a good idea.
If you get rid of the ignition key, I just wish it wouldn't be something with yet another battery to eventually replace.
I realize, this is ironic, in that I have an electric car. Having a keyfob, that I thought was going bad after only a few months (and completely started working again without me changing the battery, opening it up, etc.. it's been weeks since it seemed to be flaking out), with a battery in it that I have to replace, esp an annoying flat watch battery... is a pain. If everything took AA or AAA, or had a manual
Yes, other things on my car are "too electric" too.. the back window, door locks *that I can only lock with the keyfob* from the outside.. Overall, I really like the car, but this over-mechanising of things can be a pain.
With a key, you switch it to 1 and can run accessories. You switch it to 2 and the ignition computer is powered. Switch and hold it to 3 and you crank. You decide exactly how to start your engine.
With the newer systems, you just push the button and it decides what to do. You lose the control. What if you want to crank for a while because it won't start? What if you want to switch it to position 2 and push-start a manual transmission car? You can't.
I like the standard keys. And really, just because one manufacturer happened to use a defective part, we lose them? Key switches have been around for decade and are reliable. Just fix the reliability issue in that one model and that's it.
With many cars with keys from the past ~7 years the "START" position is a request at best. The key only has to be momentarily moved to START, and the engine will keep cranking for as long as required to start the engine (usually up to a maximum of like 10 seconds). This can be tested by holding the accelerator to the floor (which will put the car in "clear flood mode" where no fuel is injected to the engine), and turning the key to start, and it will keep cranking the engine after you release the key, until you release the pedal. This logic already being there makes remote start or push button start a dead simple change.
Hold the key to START longer than required to start the engine, and the car will ignore you and the starter will disengage after the required time anyways.
Although I can appreciate your concern about not having full control of your car, many people are stupid, even when it comes to such things as starting a car. I remember once hearing a guy outside the building trying to start his crappy old Chev Lumina.
Rrr. . .
Rrrr-rrr. . .
Rrr. . .
Rrr-rrr. . .
Rrr. . .
Rrr-rr. . .
Clearly he was too stupid to just hold the key at start:
Rrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr-vroom!
Personally, I'm neutral. On one hand, the Prius and Nissan keyfobs that just sit in a pocket are cool with one less thing to flip open. On the other hand, having to stick the physical key in the vehicle with a very low power transmitter handling the passive anti-theft access gives a bump in security.
There's no transmitter in my key. You're thinking of the RFID keys, which are pretty good security: coupled with a decent quality alarm with multiple immobilizers it makes a car pretty much unstealable unless you have a flatbed.
But there's no reason you can't simply put the RFID into the alarm keyfob instead of the key. In fact, most of the pushbutton starters I've seen in recent years work exactly like that -- there's an RFID in your keyfob, and if you don't have the keyfob in your pocket (or within a few feet of the car), the car simply won't start. If the car gets out of range of the keyfob, it'll trip the fuel line immobilizer.
Most push button systems have an active RFID transmitter in the fob to give the range (key can be in your pocket and allow you to unlock the door, or start the car). If the battery in the fob dies there's the emergency key to open the drivers door, then usually the fob is held by the ignition button, or there's a hidden slot, to allow passive RFID to authenticate the fob and allow you to start the car. Most cars from the past 7+ years include RFID immobilizers (passive in the case of standard keys).
I suppose I can live without a key, although I always use a mechanical one.
But I hear that the next model will not have a steering wheel. You just tell it where to go and it goes there in the best way possible. No controls at all.
The model after that knows where it is best for you to go, no need to tell it anything.
Now, my car is an automatic, so I have not tried the roll/start on a manual transmission with a push button ignition, but it seems to me that with all of the accessories and instrumentation turned on, I don't see why it wouldn't work.
That might work if the battery at least had enough juice to power the accessories. If it was really dead, it most likely wouldn't recognize your button pushes, so it wouldn't know it was in position 2.
In which case any car from the past 25 years wouldn't have sufficient juice to power the ECU, EFI, and electric fuel pump for a push start either (which would be somewhere from 6-9V on a 12V system). Older carbureted cars requiring spark power only can be push started with less.
A button is an imperfect replacement for a four position switch.
off/lock
accessories
run
start
A button is either on or off and depends on additional signalling and context to guess what you actually want it to be doing.
Why cant they just make a four position keyless switch?
Why am I now required to shift into park and press the brakes to be allowed to engage the starter?
And if I mistime the brake pressing and get accessory mode, I then have to press it again to get run mode and then I have to press it again to get off mode and then I get to try it again. A bit of a pain.
Sure hope I never have to restart the engine while at high speeds if it stalls out for any reason.
Why do I have to shift into neutral, kill the engine, then put it into park if I want the radio to stay on uninterrupted?
An engine in gear should reignite in the run position if the wheels are moving the it fast enough. Havent tried this one yet.
I doubt modern transmission shift into any drive gear while the engine is off, which would be convenient to park in similar fashion to manuals, if say your parking pin was broken.
SURE you can buy the key for under $25, but it's going to cost you $75 to have the dealer program the ECU or that key will not be able to start your car.
If you're trying to program an immobilizer key, and already have two that are programmed for the car, it's usually a matter of sticking one authenticated key in, turning the ignition to RUN, then sticking the second in and turning the ignition to RUN, then sticking the new key in and turning the ignition to RUN. I got two immobilizer keys from eBay for $14, Home Depot cut them for free, and I programmed them myself.
Q: How do you give a prolonged crank, if the car fails to start (e.g. poor fuel, or cold weather)?
A: You have to let the computer attempt 3 failed starts. After that, the behaviour of the start/stop sequence changes. After the 3rd attempt, a momentary push of the button, will make the computer crank the engine for up to 30 seconds, for as long as the brake pedal remains depressed.
Strange. In my Ford a momentary move of the key to start will leave the engine cranking for as long as required (up to 10 seconds). Is ~10 seconds what a "failed start" is considered? Most manuals don't recommend cranking for more than 10 seconds, and recommend cooldown periods between attempts.
""Do you still use a metal key to start your vehicle? We already knew this was old tech at this point, but now it might fully be killed off. In the wake of General Motors' 'Switchgate' fiasco, "
Or your could just not buy a POS GM and you won't have that problem. Just saying.
I seem to have enough cap or something. I have fuel injection, etc and it runs w/ no bat just fine.
Driving an old car, like your 69 beetle has a number of downsides too:
1. It's much less safe in a crash than a modern car and the cars that are likely to hit it are much heavier and will crush you like a bug (pun intended).
2. The gas mileage sucks.
3. The engine is underpowered and has very poor acceleration by modern standards (53 horsepower woohoo!)
4. The steering and handling is poor by modern standards and doesn't include either power assist or airbags.
5. There is no traction control or anti lock brakes.
I don't much care for Volkswagon anything, but even if I had a classic restored beetle I wouldn't use it as my daily driver. Get yourself a new Ford focus instead, the life you save may be your own.
Just what cars need, more software, that comes WITHOUT WARRANTY, or FITNESS FOR A PARTICULAR PURPOSE, and CONTAINS KNOWN DEFECTS.
I feel so secure knowing that my ONLY REMEDY is the COST OF THE SOFTWARE.
Sorry we missed the bug where if you press gas gas brake brake left turn right turn wiper sunroof sequence the engine explodes, it was meant to be a little easter egg! Heres a ham for the Widow, and a new upgrade for your next Kwality Built GM car!
it's bad enough that GM's "Kwality Built" cars contain enough defects, penny pinching and incompetence to kill even a skilled operator, but what about their software?
At least the hardware is built by "Engineers", even if they are American "Engineers" who don't really need a degree to call themselves "Engineers", but what about the "Software Engineers" Those high school and college dropouts? More concerned about their little easter eggs than testcases and safety. Good luck suing one of those.
From TFA:
"Ultimately, the problem was resolved around the 2007 model year, when GM made changes to the ignition switch..."
If the problem was resolved 7 years ago, why exactly do we need to switch to push buttons?
Stupid Nissan I've driven. Can't Shut down engine while keeping the radio / accesories on. Only lose functions with the push button, nothing really useful gained.
The problem is not completely dead batteries - if your battery is completely dead, your petrol car won't start whatever you do. However, there are loads of times when your battery doesn't have enough power to turn the starter motor, but does have enough to spark the plugs. In these cases, bump starting is desirable.
I used to have an old diesel XM hand me down whose alternator died. I drove it for about a month before I had enough money to get it fixed... I just parked at the top of hills, and bump started it by rolling down them every time. You had to careful no one could park in front of you, and angle the wheels outwards (low speed no power steering is not fun). My friend had an old Peugeot 205 that failed the same was when we were at university... that didn't get fixed until it died about 2 years later.
Well a button would be more reliable than a key as it's essentially the same thing with less moving parts.
We don't believe in radical loony monotheistic religions from the middle east -- we're Christians.
This.
I own three cars (between me and my wife). I have three keyrings. Each keyring has one key, except the Honda Civic that I use to drive to work - it has two (one for the car, one for the front door at work).
My dad used to carry a 20 pound keyring, I didn't understand it then, and I don't understand it now. He had keys for cars that he'd sold 10 years previously, and front door keys for house that were two residences ago. His keyring was a FINO (First in, never out) queue.
I don't think any of the German cars I've owned has ever had an accessory position. It's an Americanism, as far as I can tell.
Sent from my PDP-11
You must not be familiar with modern starting interlocks. Take GM's "Smart Start," as featured in my 2005 TrailBlazer. You click it over to start, and it starts. You pretty much just made the ignition switch send a signal to the PCM saying "Hey, this guy wants the truck to start." It then goes through the Park/Neutral check, and if everything checks out the PCM powers the starter relay control, which will begin cranking either until a set time has elapsed or the engine detects that the combustion processes have begun.
If you try turning it over again with the engine running, the PCM just LOLs and doesn't do ANYTHING with the starter. The story goes that "the inline-6 ran so smooth and quiet people didn't know if it was started or not (since apparently tachometers are no indication of this), so they developed Smart Start to stop people from grinding the starter."
A vehicle generally will not try to adjust AFR during the crank cycle. In fact, it pretty much rolls a little rich until the upstream O2 sensor is heated up, at which point it will begin adjustment of fuel ratio dynamically.
It must be fortunate to live in simpler times.
No I am not ready. There is something special about having a key to a car that can not be replaced. Besides I am not sure if this system is secure enough to be the replacement to having a good laser cut key
> Turn the key to start while the car is running. You'll be greeted with a pleasant grinding noise as your starter motor cries out in pain.
Unless you happen to drive a recent VW. I drive a 2008 GTi and once the car is started, the starter will not engage. You can keep turning the key all you want but it'll never grind.
Except you're not really, in certain conditions.
Many modern systems have a start interlock which makes the ECU/PCM control the starter for you.
Throttle-by-wire means that where your foot is at isn't NECESSARILY where the throttle blade is at. This can be used in reducing the rev limiter while not in gear, to restrict speed, to control cruise control electronically, to reduce engine power during transmission shifts to minimize clutch wear and potential shock load.
Shift-by-wire means you pick the gear range, and the computer does the rest. Either through the PCM or through a dedicated module.
Lights? The switch is just something to tell your BCM what to engage the relays on.
Interior dimming? In some cases, like the driver and passenger door modules in the GMT360/370/305, the BCM measures the setting of the dimmer knob and sends info over the serial bus telling those modules how much to dim their lights.
Rear wiper? The 3-speed switch is just three different resistors. A module measures the resistance, and tells a module in the back what it wants. Same thing with the front wipers too, sometimes.
The horn? Sure, it's a switch, but it goes to a horn relay now, so that the built-in car alarm or lock/unlock or whatever else can also have control.
There is so much we can't truly play god with on vehicles these days. And that's how we have vehicles that feel so advanced. There was a time where everything was very straightforward, and that time has past. It's unfortunate that we didn't bring the beautiful and majestic styling of the days of old with us, at least.
I mean old as in pre- fuel injection etc. Cars being built now will easily go 200k with little maintenance.
love is just extroverted narcissism
I hate the RFID keys, and electronic keys, that I can't get wet. I kayak surf frequently, and the mechanical keys are not harmed by saltwater. So the lack of an electronic *entry* system (recognizing ignition is a different system than entry, but they are often conflated) is incredibly valuable to me. I don't want a key that I have to protect with the same caution that I use to protect my mobile phone (I leave the mobile in the *car* when I'm surfing!)
I give up the ignition key when they pry my bicycle from my cold, dead hands-- oh wait, it doesn't have one.
The terrible, terrible problem with the GM ignition keys was they neglected to spend an extra buck per car to save around 13 lives, and as I understand it, those were apparently idiots who like to hang ten pounds of crap from their keys. Wouldn't it be cool if we had some form of rational decision-making in the modern world?
Oh well, how's my "internet fast lane" coming along?
"Eventually, drivers will be expected to download and install car software patches themselves."
I can hardly see that happening. You'll need a valid support and maintenance contract and the patches will be downloaded automatically or you'll have to visit an authorized service center if the downloads fail for some reason.
There have been cases when I want to move from 2 to 1 without turning everything off
Kinda repeating something I said earlier... In my Acura, the magic sequence for that is to put the shifter in Neutral instead of Park before pushing the button. That causes it to go to accessory mode instead of full off. (Not defending that... I think it is kinda silly, but at least in some cars a way exists.)
Options:
a) The most important thing to me in the world is how I start my car because I have no real problems because I'm a pampered first world citizen
b) Huh? Key? Button? Who cares? Why are you asking me this?
You can read RFIDs, so you can copy them. They're just bits. The problem is that the typical individual doesn't have the knowledge or want to spend the money for the equipment to copy an RFID. (Though given what car dealers seem to charge to duplicate RFID+mechanical keys, it's tempting to spend the cash on an RFID reader and burner instead.)
What I want, though, is a key that's waterproof. If I'm going to do something that'll get me soaking wet, like surfing or boating, I don't want to have to carry around some electronic keying system that can't cope with salt water, like the remote control for my current car. (If I'd gotten the highest-priced trim package with the car, it would have come with a pushbutton combination door lock, which would have been nice, but would only have come with the bigger engine, not the gas-efficient one.)
Bill Stewart
New Fast-Compression-only CPR http://preview.tinyurl.com/dy575ks
I thought people in Fairbanks left 'em idling while they shop.
Just make it so that the position the key would be in, if there WERE torque due to the weight of a keychain, if the detents and springs wore out is the ON/RUN position, and NOT the STOP/OFF position. As I understand it, the positions in many vehicles are \ / _ for OFF/LOCK, RUN, and START respectively. Why not instead use _ | / ? Here, you have to pronate your wrist to insert the key, and switching it to ON/RUN requires you rotating the key so that the edges of the head are straight up and down, and then to start you rotate forward past that point supinating the wrist for a moment to fire it up, then when you let go, it naturally returns to a vertical orientation.
Like, DUH...
Or even better, put the keyhole back where it belongs, away from the steering column, and implement my earlier suggestion about the position the thing should be in when operating. As for steering-wheel lockout, why not make that something that happens when you REMOVE the key? You could even have the key hanging off the dashboard and STILL do that by having the locking mechanism behind the firewall, controlled either with a cable or push-rod assembly, or something similar. A pull-rod would be better still, or a failsafe system that does NOT engage the steering-lock if the wheels are MOVING, or if the gear-selector lever is in any position other than PARK.
Honestly, though, isn't it time we ditched this metal key BS? How about a combination lock? This tech has been around for years... (decades?) and if done right, would be at least as reliable as the one it's replacing. A simple cypher-lock would do, and being mechanical, you wouldn't have to worry about finicky electronics... The OFF/STOP, ON/RUN, and START functions could be handled with a simple, big, red switch, like they are on MOTORCYCLES. They work fine there, why would there be a problem in cars?
Oh, one last thing. The ON/OFF switch should ideally be way the hell over on the far side from the passenger, where only the driver can reach it, so it won't accidentally get hit it, etc. Just common sense. Basically more or less where it is in a military Hum-Vee. (Not the civilian version... a REAL one. It's mounted on the upper left side, just a bit above the three-part light-switch.
You don't lose control, you just need to learn the new method of controlling what happens. Press it with your foot on the brake and the engine starts. Press it without your foot on the brake, and it cycles between off, accessories on and ignition circuit powered.
If you were a little older, kid, you'd be remembering the reliability of older cars much differently. You grew up during the dark days of American car making. I'll take the simplicity and rock-solid build of a 1960's American car, any day.
-- sudon't
Air-ride Equipped
My Toyota cranks just long enough to start the engine, whether you hold the button down or not. I guess if you're used to manually cranking using a key, you're going to hold the button for about the right amount of time anyway, and it might seem like the car is cranking according to how long you are holding it down.
I have some bad news for you.
Pretty sure I've done that accidentally.
Now, some of the stuff they've put in to safeguard engines has had dire consequences (like the folk with runaway cars that could not kill the engine - start/stop button didn't work, electronic transmission would not switch down from higher gear because the engine would be damaged or transmission, etc.)
There should always be a kill switch that just flat out depowers the ignition. Yes, it might be a bad thing (steering gets hard, transmission might not shift), but in some cases that bad thing is worse than the bad things if you can't kill it.
You also used to be able to get engine codes out of cars when you had a malfunction without a code reader by twiddling the key a few times on-off. Can't do that with the buttons as I found out with my GF's 2013 Dodge Journey.
The worst thing is electronic transmissions that over-ride human shift choices. Having a tranny that won't allow you to disengage it in an emergency is idiotic. Sometimes engine or tranny damage is better than the alternative.
The "mechanical" ignition is electrical, it uses mechanics to create an electrical circuit. It's about as simple as it gets, a basic switch.
The "push-button" ignition is not just electrical, it's electronic and is considerably more difficult to engineer and fix than the switch. It also relies on a separate keyfob (which is much less physically robust than a key) with which it must communicate using radio frequencies (which can fail), and the keyfob must have its own independent source of power (which can also fail). Also the radio authentication mechanism can be hacked by a 3rd party even if they don't have access to the keyfob.
This suggests that the push-button ignition system is much more likely to fail more often than the key. Yes, even simple switches fail, but replacing it with something even more likely to fail is perhaps not the best idea.
In Europe, gas prices are about 2x US => manual is standard. 95+% of the cars in use are manual. We still pay premium for the automatic. Since pretty much everyone can drive manual, (1) few automatics are offered outside the luxury class and (2) hybrids are total nonsense here.
The odometers did not even have a digit for 100,000. The rare car "turned over" back to zero. Title forms still have a check box for that. It's one thing the Car Talk guys were right about.
with these new system's if you did that the door would lock when you walked away. even with the new auto start systems if another person entered your car it would not start it can tell hes not the driver and the only way to bypass is it to insert the remote/key.
steel vs plastic steel wins.
yea i say late 80s and 90s was the best time for cars hell many are still on the road if they haven't rusted out. but now they throw so much crap in there cars its just more to go wrong and it does often. i wont even buy a new car with a auto trans all i see them do is fail sensor this sensor that. witch of course these days limits me to only a few model cars that still offer standard trans.
Click to start to shutdown
But please keep it up. This only helps me sell more quality used cars that don't have automatic transmission and push button starts.
Considering vehicle reliability, safety, and function have skyrocketed, it compensates for that. I don't think people remember how shitty your average car was in the 80s.
Doesn't anyone remember KISS?
If the only function was to start the car, then a simple off/acc/on switch plus a momentary button for start, is all that's needed.
If we add the requirement of anti-theft security, it gets harder. Conventional keys would suffice to lock/unlock the doors, while a button would start the car once you're inside. Who said that two levels of security are magic (1) the doors (2) the ignition switch? Why not one, or three, or four levels?
I'm genuinely baffled why a) this has not already happened and b) that it's generating so many comments and so much negativity. My ten year old car (a Renault Mégane CC) has keyless entry and start. It's awesome; I just walk up to the car and grip the handle: it unlocks. I get in and press the start button: it starts. It's very convenient and works perfectly. It's much better in every respect than the old fashioned mechanical lock and switch. To lock the doors I just press a button on the handle. All of this obviously only works if I have the keycard on me. It's even clever enough not to let me lock the doors from the outside if the keycard is still inside the car.
It does have a backup system in case it ever should fail, which I agree should always exist. For unlocking the door the driver's side door actually has a mechanical lock hidden behind a cover in the handle which you can pop off with the emergency key, which is hidden inside in the keycard. And for starting the car you can insert the keycard in a slot in the dashboard. There's no old fashioned ignition switch.
Right to repair, goddammit! I fucking well voted for it, now give it to me!
Manual transmissions already existed in 1995. In fact, the majority of cars had manual transmissions back then, too.
That's terrible user interface design - it's not discoverable. The older key systems are at least discoverable, you'll see it go through accessory position on the way to start, and it's therefore pretty intuitive.
Oolite: Elite-like game. For Mac, Linux and Windows
I'm there already. I bought a Ford C-Max Energi about half a year ago. About the only thing not mediated by a computer is the latch on the glove compartment.
I keep my wireless fob on a key-ring in my pocket. I'm still uncomfortable about this change to the User Interface as it means that I don't necessarily have the feedback of knowing I have my keys with me that I had back when I had a real key. And the key fob contains a small key-blade as a backup/emergency solution should the small battery in the fob expire (I've already replaced the battery once.) That small key-blade seems to be the ultimate back-door as far as security goes.
As for wet key fobs - my previous car had a remote lock/unlock/alarm built into one of the keys that came with the car. That died when I rushed into a lake after one of my kids while carrying the key in my pants pocket. It wasn't worth it then to replace - but it would have cost $300+ to do so.
As far as I can tell, my car is now a kind of colonial embedded computing system that happens to roll along the highway at deadly speeds. It's already been into the dealership for software updates (that took two days to apply.) I suspect that as automobiles become even more dependent on automation for their functionality, the resale value of the cars will decrease as the manufacturers eventually put limits on the support for the systems - or go out of business - or go through bankruptcy. GM - having gone through bankruptcy - now has a nice, legal excuse to stop supporting older processors in automobiles that don't impact safety.
I don't see a third-party market developing to support or enhance these systems like there is for mechanical systems. Yes, there are car hackers who download some firmware into their engine computers - but I don't see it happening for navigation systems, entertainment/audio systems, etc. And I doubt it'll happen with EV, hybrid, or plugin-hybrid vehicles.
Tesla being nothing but an electric car is paving the way towards how to have high quality cars. In essence, you make it update-able. Other car makers are going to follow this suit fairly soon.
I prefer the "u" in honour as it seems to be missing these days.
How do you turn the car off but leave the radio on for the passenger - e.g. at a gas station?
Either jump out of the car (leaving it running) - it will complain when you leave that there is no key. It will stay running until shut off without the key in the car, not advisable (someone could drive off. I had my friend "test" this by driving around the parking lot.) I'd park the car, then hit the start / stop button twice without foot on brake - once to kill the engine, then the next engages the accessory position.
How do you give a prolonged crank?
In my experience - I have a remote starter, and on occasions that I jump the gun on the remote start (i.e. only give it one minute to "warm up") my car seems to have an issue re-starting while in the car post remote start. At this point, when I put my foot on the brake and TAP the start button, it will crank seemingly forever (>15 seconds) until either the vehicle starts OR I take my foot off the brake. Due to security concerns (see above), my remote starter automatically shuts off the car when a door is opened, requiring a re-start to go.
This is for a 2008 ES350.
Karnal
That is only true for some makes/models. Yes, I've owned cars that where easy to program if you had two keys it already knew. But I currently own two cars that require the manufacturer tool to program any new keys, regardless of how many working keys you have. (08 Honda Accord, 08 Nissan Quest).
"File to fit, pound to insert, paint to match" - Aircraft Maintenance 101
We have a Toyota RAV4 with the keyless technology, and it's worked pretty well, but there was one night when I tried to start it while a train was passing about 200 feet away. There must have been some pretty good RFI from the train, because the car would not start until the train was gone. So, I'm wondering if we could find ourselves in a situation in which solar flares or some new use of radio by the military might suddenly render all the motor vehicles inoperable. (It's not like this kind of thing hasn't happened before.) Then, too, there's the problem that these keys seem to be notoriously easy to hack.
"Who controls the past controls the future. Who controls the present controls the past." -- George Orwell
Since these systems need a special key fob to work and the fobs can sell for hundreds of dollars to replace I see this as a bit of a money grab. I highly doubt that the actual cost to manufacture these fobs is more than a few dollars. This smells like a nice way to gain some extra markup.
if we move to be completely keyless, how do we open the doors when the battery is dead?
Even your Beetle is 100% reliant on the electrical system - it's a spark ignition engine, and it relies on at least the battery being able to produce enough current to excite the alternator field coils to even be push started (unless it's a super old model with a dynamo with permanent magnets).
I used to own a car old enough to have a dynamo (and I had to push start it many times because I was too broke to afford a new battery). However, that car needed quite a bit of preventative maintenance on the electrical system to have any kind of reliability, such as gapping and cleaning the points regularly, gapping and cleaning the spark plugs regularly, and the distributor. It also needed me to regularly check and adjust valve clearances and many other pieces of routine maintenance that my modern Honda just doesn't require. My modern Honda despite being significantly larger and having a more powerful engine gets just as good fuel economy.
The old Mini? If I owned one still it'd be to drive on nice days and for something to tinker with. It was a fun car, but it required a lot of work to use as a day-to-day drive. My Honda is better in every single respect as a day-to-day drive.
Oolite: Elite-like game. For Mac, Linux and Windows
"...but we know electrical trumps mechanical more often than not"
Do we?
a friend who worked @ nhtsa told me the audi investigation showed gas pedals mangled by the operators, who insisted they were braking;-\
I live in Minnesota. I get the feel of ABS several times in even a mild winter. (It's nice to be able to steer over to where I'll have a better chance of stopping.)
"When you have eliminated the unacceptable, whatever is left, however improbable, must be the truthiness" - Holmes
I want to be able to turn my car on when I want to. I really don't trust that there wouldn't be some external kill switch that would essentially Lo-Jack every car and put it in the hands of some centralized authority.
Where did you get that figure? Besides me, only a very few folks know how to drive.
I'd keep them driving though, it keeps the price of cars down through the volume of replacements needed.
Even keyfob active keys doesn't keep cars from being ripped off. But neither does manufacturers that only put in a half dozen different physical keys in their lineup of physical keys. IMHO: If you don't want your car ripped off, drive an old beater that no-one but you wants.
... "When you pry the source from my cold dead hands."
Conversely, I can take my keys to any locksmith or hardware store, or even Walmart, and get a copy made for two bucks or less. And I can stash a copy somewhere outside the passenger compartment in case I need to replace a lost key right now (or lock myself out of my vehicle), with no worries that it won't work when I need it.
BTW, good luck with that pushbutton door lock after freezing rain. Chances are you can knock open or melt open a frozen keyhole with no tools beyond a match, but pushbuttons can get solidified to the point that you need half an hour with a hairdryer to get at all the ice.
~REZ~ #43301. Who'd fake being me anyway?
My metal key can get wet, get dropped and still work. My electronic remote can't get wet, the battery could die, it could stop working from being dropped. Electronics are more convenient but not more reliable in my opinion. However as long as we don't use Retina Scans, I definitely don't want Snake Plissken's friends scooping out my eye to steal my vehicle :-$
FYI, you can still switch it to the position to run the accessories and not start he engine. Just don't step on the brake, then press the button once, and you'll get just the radio.
Why the hell do we have to have these obscure geastures like "turn on the ignition while holding down the brake" and "turn on the ignition while winding down the window" to do various things instead of having a simple multiposition switch (possibly a key switch)?
Car designers seem to be taking cues from computer UI designers - hide away options so they are completely non-discoverable instead of making them obvious (have you noticed that a lot of software no longer tells you the short cuts in the menus? They just expect you do know somehow).
http://blog.nexusuk.org
Keycards that are inserted in a slot in the dashboard or are kept in the driver's pocket have been available on cars on the European market for the last 10 years or so..
My 1959 series 2 Land Rover has a key on the central dash that just operates as a switch to break power to the ignition coil. The starter motor is activated by a big button. There is no steering lock. Works perfectly just as it has for 55 years.
Why the hell do we have to have these obscure geastures like "turn on the ignition while holding down the brake" and "turn on the ignition while winding down the window" to do various things instead of having a simple multiposition switch (possibly a key switch)?
Seriously? Obscure?
You've had to hold down the clutch to start manual transmission cars for years. Also, many recent cars with automatic transmissions have required you to step on the brake before turning the key. I don't see the big deal, really.
You've had to hold down the clutch to start manual transmission cars for years.
Its certainly good practice to do so, but nothing forces you to.
http://blog.nexusuk.org
Incorrect. most manual transmission cars in recent history have an interlock where the clutch must be depressed all the way to engage the ignition circuit. My last vehicle was a 2002 Nissan with a manual transmission, and the vehicle could not be started without the clutch fully depressed to the floor.
Incorrect. most manual transmission cars in recent history have an interlock where the clutch must be depressed all the way to engage the ignition circuit.
Not one I've ever driven. Of the vehicles I regularly drive (1998 VW Transporter, 2003 Toyota MR2 Spyder, 2005 Peugeot 207), not one of them has such an interlock, nor have any of the (more modern) courtesy cars I've driven.
http://blog.nexusuk.org
*sigh*
Well then, it must be my imagination , huh?
gosgog:
Hell they had that back in the thirties, it was the next move past having a hand crank to start your car! BFD!!
It has its upside - when was the last time your engine 'flooded' ?
Maybe these are an option, or only used on some very specific models? I don't think I've ever driven in a car that had such a switch. Many if not most people don't depress the clutch when starting the engine, as it is not really necessary when the gearbox is in neutral (as most people do when parking).
To key, or not to key, that is the question...
Even your Beetle still has to have a working distributor, coil and alternator to push start with a dead battery.
Actually, it's a generator, not an alternator, that was used in most of the old bugs.
Having experience GMC "quality" first hand, I am positive that they can screw up an electronic ignition key even worse than a mechanical one.
So, they are going to ban the only reliable way to stop the engine, in an emergency like the ones Toyota had...
Not Good.
Believe me, I have plenty of experience with freezing rain and cars; I currently deal with the problem by living in California. :-)
And yeah, I do prefer simple non-electronic keys - my previous two cars were Chevy vans, which meant that not only was it easy to replace keys, and carry a AAA-made plastic key in my wallet in case I got locked out, but I could also break in with a screwdriver without much trouble.
Bill Stewart
New Fast-Compression-only CPR http://preview.tinyurl.com/dy575ks
No fair! I moved back to MT from the SoCal desert a couple years ago, and I got reminded about the weather real quick :) I've got two older Ford pickups myself. They have keys. And the lights and wiper on the dash and the dimmer switch on the floor, where the gods intended. ;)
BTW re your sig, the local EMTs set up in front of Costco a while back and trained folks all day long. Takes about 30 seconds to become proficient.
~REZ~ #43301. Who'd fake being me anyway?
I've been ready for that for years. I just didn't want to pay $$$ extra for that package (came with 'keyless entry' iirc).
I prioritized that my car can park itself and follow lanes using a camera (including that the car complains that i'm distracted/asleep).
A new electronic key for a Corvette is less than $40. It contains a wireless transceiver, the battery lasts for years, and the whole thing can survive multiple accidental trips through the washing machine. Ask me how I know.