Professor: Young People Are "Lost Generation" Who Can No Longer Fix Gadgets

antdude points out this story about one of the problems with our ever increasingly disposable world. "Young people in Britain have become a lost generation who can no longer mend gadgets and appliances because they have grown up in a disposable world, the professor giving this year's Royal Institution Christmas lectures has warned. Danielle George, Professor of Radio Frequency Engineering, at the University of Manchester, claims that the under 40s expect everything to 'just work' and have no idea what to do when things go wrong. Unlike previous generations who would ‘make do and mend’ now young people will just chuck out their faulty appliances and buy new ones. But Prof George claims that many broken or outdated gadgets could be fixed or repurposed with only a brief knowledge of engineering and electronics. "

Comments

Dupe

[Anonymous Coward]

This story is a dupe from my grandfather's generation, who cried about the same thing.

Re:Dupe

[rubycodez]

wrong, we over 50 were taught to fix shit, starting at age 10 in my case. Guys [1] usually fell into two categories, the electrical or mechanical.

[1] sorry wrong headed thinking about women meant females left out, though sewing and cooking are good skills everyone should have

Re:Dupe

[Rhywden]

That was a time when you could actually easily fix something. Take cars, for example. Fixing a modern car aside from trivial cases is not easy.
Hell, even exchanging a broken lightbulb can pose major problems.

Re:Dupe

[Feral Nerd]

This story is a dupe from my grandfather's generation, who cried about the same thing.

That's because it has gotten worse. My grandparents used to fix everything and keep using it until it was thoroughly broken. I still have a bunch of my grandfather's tools some of which came from my great grandfather and predate WWI. My parents's generation started to get used to the idea of disposability that came with the Americans after WWII and I have experienced how disposability became the norm. It does not even seem to occur to most people these days that things can be fixed. I have seen people dispose of perfectly usable smartphones because of an easily fixable software issue and bin laptops that they could have gotten several more years of use out of by installing an SSD and some extra RAM for a fraction of what a new laptop wold have cost (and keep in mind that the most demanding work most of these laptops ever do is run MS Word). The list goes on, and on, and on,.... And don't even get me started on plastic packaging, it's absolutely revolting. I will never understand why every single one of the cookies in a bag of American cookies has to come in a plastic bag of it's own and I don't remember Bounty bars tasting any worse when they came wrapped in paper.

Re:Dupe

[jedidiah]

Some things can be fixed but would you want to? My previous oven got replaced because it's failure mode was to go into it's cleaning cycle. I could have replaced the faulty control board but I didn't really want to. I didn't want another one of THOSE control boards nor did I want a same brand replacement.

I didn't want to wait for this "fixed" item to eventually burn my house down.

OTOH, many other things are so cheap that they are not worth the parts and labor it would take to fix them.

Re:Dupe

[AK Marc]

Nope. I don't know anyone over 50 who knows how to build or repair a steam engine. The shit to fix changes, but "fix shit" still exists. When I was 5-50, my parents were continually asking for help setting their clocks. It wasn't until 70+ when they got devices that were smart where they could finally "fix" the clock. The cable box sets clock from the network. But my father (probable 30 years older than you) never learned how to set time on a clock. Yes, he'd "return" it to the dealer and ask them to do it.

That you see no value in what kids can fix doesn't mean that it's worthless. I'd guess that when my father was a teen and continually "fixing" his car, his parents complained that he didn't know how to "fix" the horse. As he was raised on a farm to parents born before farm machinery was common (as in I doubt there was much machinery in farming in IN in the 1880s, but haven't researched it), so fixing farm equipment is a lower priority than maintaining the animals which powered the farm implements.

Same complaint, new generation.

Plus, my observation is that when it costs $100 to fix an item, but $90 to buy the same thing new, why would you fix it? Yes, that bites you when it costs $90 to fix it and $100 to buy it and you can't fix it, but that's rare. Things are disposable because the grandparents running the corporations that make the shit design it to be unfixable. Then complain when their grandchildren can't fix it.

Re: Dupe

[Anonymous Coward]

There's your problem right there. Because you expect everything to be unfixable you assume replacing a bulb is beyond your capability. Fact is bulbs in cars are a darn sight easier to replace. ...

Now get off my lawn.

Re:Dupe

[AK Marc]

Drop in an LED for a replacement, and the car could register it as a fault, because it's not draining the right amount of power. We are so smart we are dumb.

Re:Dupe

[khasim]

And the reason is ... because the stuff used to be BUILT by people. If a guy on the assembly line had to be able to get his hands onto a bolt to install it then someone replacing it would also be able to reach it.

Once we switched to robots for manufacturing it became a lot more difficult. A robot can reach where a person cannot.

Which means you save a lot of "wasted" space and materials ... but you have to take apart X, Y and Z to be able to read the headlight.

Re:Dupe

[ShanghaiBill]

wrong, we over 50 were taught to fix shit

I know plenty of people over 50 who cannot "fix shit", and I know plenty of people under 30 who can. I doubt that either you, or the professor in the article, has any actual data to backup your assertion. Since at least the time of Socrates, every generation has thought that their kids were dumber than they were, and civilization was doomed. Whatever.

Re: Dupe

[Nirvelli]

Went to replace the fog light in my 2014 Ford Fusion; the instructions start with "Remove the front bumper" and the entire process took over an hour due to the bumper being attached in some places with somewhat of a "just wedge it in there and hope you're not breaking something" approach.

Re:Dupe

[pushing-robot]

It all comes down to economic efficiency. Manufacturing costs have plummeted while labor costs have skyrocketed, so it's not a productive use of one's time to repair. Time is expensive, stuff is cheap.

Repair isn't the only skill that's suffered; we've forgotten how to farm, forgotten how to weave our own clothing, forgotten how to do many things that were required of a household a century or two ago. It's also why we get connected halfway around the world for customer service and don't get our fuel pumped and windshield washed by a whistling attendant.

Whether this is ultimately good or bad depends on your point of view, but unless we run short of raw materials, drive up costs via pollution taxes, or see an economic meltdown in the west it's not likely to change course. Rising wages in China and other industrial companies will only do so much before factories switch to robot labor.

Re:Dupe

[ShanghaiBill]

I have seen people dispose of perfectly usable smartphones because of an easily fixable software issue and bin laptops that they could have gotten several more years of use out of

Our economy depends on these people.

Re:Dupe

[Lunix Nutcase]

Your falsely extrapolating your life to everyone. There are plenty of people over 50 who can't fix shit.

Re:Dupe

[anorlunda]

My Ford Falcon used to get low voltage. The cure was to whack the regulator with a tire iron.

No special smarts needed.

Re:Dupe

[anagama]

I think there is an aspect to this that is being missed to some degree. Yes, it is true that repairing a device with surface mount components the size of dust by hand is a lost cause. It is true that manufacturers build their products in ways that makes opening them impossible or nearly so, and it is true that it is often cheaper to replace something than repair. None of that is going to change.

But off to the side, tons of people are making their own stuff with Arduino/Pi/etc.etc. People are learning about interfacing with the real world through sensors and adjusting it, or adjusting to it, with any number of methods. The barriers to these types of projects have dropped immensely recently and there are lots of people who take that broken toaster oven, and totally repurpose it as a soldering oven.

So, perhaps people _are_ less likely to try to fix things than they were decades ago -- instead, a great number are learning how to _design_ their own rather sophisticated stuff. Grandpa may have been able to repair his tractor, but his grandkid can automate it to minimize overlap when out tilling the fields saving diesel, time, topsoil, and mechanical wear/tear. The former skill is valuable, but the current skill is valuable in its own way.

Re:Dupe

[Anonymous Coward]

To a certain extent that is true. I just replaced the tailight on my mustang and to disassemble most of the trunk.

However, in another case I watched two people try to get a PT Cruiser running on my street. They worked on it for two days before I went over. I said "you know, the car is trying to tell you what's wrong!" The check engine light was on.

You can flip the ignition switch ON, OFF three times and it will print the error code on the odometer. A quick Google search and I resolved the problem to be a bad oil pressure sensor. $20 for the sensor, $10 for a socket to fit it ad the car fired right up.

Improved, more comprehensive diagnostics make a lot of things easier on new cars.

Re:Dupe

[Nemyst]

Yep. That Professor needs to check back, it's not the "young people", it's their parents' generation. The ones who've decided that repairable appliances reduces income for companies, that cheap materials are the way to go, that throwaway electronics pave the future. I'll be the first to agree that many changes have been for the better: you wouldn't be able to get cars as efficient as they are now without a lot of complex machinery and ICs everywhere. Many of our most beloved gadgets can only exist because of miniaturization and automation of production, at the cost of being able to repair them. It's just that when your washing machine's motor fails after a year, or you need to replace your convection oven's fan seven times before it stops making a buzzing sound, you realize that it's about as much about cost-cutting as it is about efficiency and actual, material gains.

Re:Dupe

[beelsebob]

I also object to "because they grew up in a disposable world". It's not because we grew up in a disposable world that we don't mend things. Instead, it's because we don't (and can't) mend things that we are in a disposable world. You can't mend things any more - they're much much much too complex to be able to do it without incredibly fancy machinery, generally that's custom to each item you'd want to mend. And that's even assuming you understood what the thing was doing, and why.

Re:Dupe

[burne]

wrong, we over 50 were taught to fix shit, starting at age 10 in my case.

I wasn't taught anything. I started to disassemble things early on. That was satisfying for about a year. Then I started trying to reassemble what I disassembled. Often things that were broken started working after me reassembling things and replacing broken parts.

When I was 8 my aunt gave me a broken radio. I discovered disco and a few years later punk and electronika. When I was 10 a neighbour gave me a broken TV, and a few weeks later a broken shortwave receiver. I was watching SSTV from half a world away a few months later.

I can't repair my current computer, phone, tablet, tv, etc. I can order the right part and swap that, but swapping sub-assemblies isn't 'repairing'.

Fixing shit is in my competence-envelope but current technology is mostly unfixable, unless you have unlimited facilities available.

Oh, I'm under-fifty.

Re:Dupe

[ranton]

wrong, we over 50 were taught to fix shit, starting at age 10 in my case. Guys [1] usually fell into two categories, the electrical or mechanical.

Even if I grant you that those who are 50+ can fix things as well as their parent's generation, you can replace the complaining with any other area of life. Perhaps complaints like "eat around the mold, don't waste good food" that I heard my great depression surviving great grandfather say one time he was at our house. I would put complaining about throwing away moldy bread as being similar to complaining about not knowing how to fix your radio today.

I am about 15 years away from 50 so I don't know all of the complaints my great grandfather would have had, but considering all of their complaints about hippies and Elvis and whatever I would bet he had complaints about your generation's work ethic and handyman skills as well.

Re:Dupe

[ranton]

Do tell where steam engines (aside from turbines in ships and power plants) are used in our society. I did not say we were taught useless skills.

Fine, do you know how to churn your own butter or butcher your own chickens? My grandfather did all of these things, but my dad (who is still a farmer) has no idea how to do either. And even if you are one of the rare ones who knows how to do those things, I doubt almost all of your generation can.

What your generation forgot about growing your own food is in the same league as what our generation has forgot about how to fix our own appliances.

Re:Dupe

[burne]

Drop in a LED (or worse: 'realy sheep shinese HID') and have your car impounded because you used replacement parts that weren't part of the original certificate of road-worthiness, and hence you made your car not roadworthy and thus illegal to drive in. Since you were driving at the time the fine officer stopped you...

(that cool headlight set will cost you several thousand dollars and a six months not having access to your car..)

Re:Dupe

[ranton]

My "actual data" would of course entail my relatives and friends, who indeed can "fix shit", while the current generation is mostly useless in that regard. Can't solder, can't crimp, can't change an oil filter or even headlight bulb, can't measure nor cut nor fasten lumber, etc. etc.

And for every millennial who can't change an oil filter or fasten lumber there is a 50 year old who can't program their digital clock or reconfigure their new cellphone without waiting for their kids to come home for the holidays. Different generations have different skills, and they usually align with the skills that were useful to them in their early life.

Re:Dupe

[Shakrai]

There was an amusing scene in Mythbusters about this, where Jamie goes to replace the battery in a Dodge Stratus they purchased and has to take one of the wheels off in order to access it. Needless to say he was unimpressed; I think his quote was "You see, what happened here is some idiot designed this in a computer and didn't think."

Even better was the fact that a friend of ours had recently purchased the same car, something we mocked him incessantly about, and this was just extra fuel for the fire. :)

Re:Dupe

[Shakrai]

I will never understand why every single one of the cookies in a bag of American cookies has to come in a plastic bag of it's own and I don't remember Bounty bars tasting any worse when they came wrapped in paper.

My Great-Grandfather used to swear that plastic was going to be the death of civilization. I'm not willing to go that far (it's hard to imagine modern medicine without plastics, amongst other applications) but I really really really wish we could go back to paper and glass for our foodstuffs; it just tastes better, in my not so humble opinion. Don't even get me started on the wastefulness of the plastic grocery bag....

Re:Dupe

[LordLucless]

Well, churning your own butter is easy. Just accidentally forget about the cream you were beating in your mixer. Done that before.

Re: Dupe

[neorush]

You have to disassemble most of the headlight housing and surrounding components on my Subaru. The dealership does it for the cost of the light bulb if I'm getting an oil change anyway...how much is $12 worth to you? I used to do my own oil changes, but after buying everything I might save $10 ...and there lies the problem...a full day of fiddling (and it still might not work)...or $30 for a new coffee maker?

Re:Dupe

[aberglas]

I do fix stuff. Often fairly easily. But I would have to admit that spending an hour fixing a $50 gadget that will still be old when done is not an economical use of time.

The other problem for me is the Australia Tax. Parts for white goods etc. are ridiculously expensive. E.g. solinoid for fridge $170 vs $28 in USA (which the wrong voltage and requires more time bodgying it up). That is because nobody fixes things any more. Anyone that is silly enough to pay a repair man $100 to come and say it is not worth fixing can afford to pay the ridiculous prices for parts.

Re:Dupe

[Russ1642]

What makes you think his grandfather is over fifty?

Re: Dupe

[Anonymous Coward]

On my 2015 Subaru STI, I take off three clips and reach in to swap the bulb. On my 2014 Dodge Grand Caravan, it's basically the same. I'll grant that some designs are bad (my 2011 Subaru Outback was very difficult to do headlights on) but it's not anything to do with modern cars, it's a simple design choice. Ford chose to make the fog light on the Fusion a great big pain in the ass to replace -- not because someone forced them to, or because it's the only way we know how in 2014, but because they wanted to.

Re:Dupe

[TapeCutter]

OTOH, many other things are so cheap that they are not worth the parts and labor it would take to fix them.

Exactly, I'm over 50 and that's the reason my mum stopped darning socks back in the 60's.

Re:Dupe

[sconeu]

[Citation Needed]

Look up Magnusson-Moss.

Re:Dupe

[AK Marc]

I've seen a BMW "fail" because of a taillight bulb swap, where the LED replacement was a 100% replacement for the original and met all the requirements (other than not drawing enough power). While an illegally bright reverse light was perfectly fine, as far as the car's monitoring system was concerned.

Re: Dupe

[Anonymous Coward]

why would you need to replace the fog light on a 1 year old car? Is it not under warranty?

Re: Dupe

[peragrin]

I did the math at one point and realized it cost me money to change my own oil. The filters, oil and disposal cost me more than paying some one to do it.

Re:Dupe

[AK Marc]

I did not say we were taught useless skills.

Yes, you did. You indicated that we don't know how to fix things our parents think we should fix. My father's parents were born before IC engines. So people like them would be more likely to know a steam engine than gas or diesel engines. Since this was about "grandparents", I can use them as an example, right? Even though they died in the '40s. They are still my grandparents. My father was all about IC engines, since he grew up in the '40s, where road racing and cruising got it's start. So every few generations, the desired skills are changed, and the old people complain. This is just another complaint by old people about young people not having the same interests.

Re:Dupe

[gweihir]

I learned to sew and cook as well, by choice. With the right POV, these are engineering disciplines as well, with a bit of art and aesthetics thrown in. Just recently fixed my backpack, which may not have been cost-effective, but gave me a lot of satisfaction. And I found that shortening my own jeans is actually faster than giving them to a seamstress and picking them up again later.

Re:Dupe

[gweihir]

Quite a few things are still relatively easy to fix these days. Contact error are still widespread, likely because they provide some kind of thinly camouflaged planned obsolescence. Then there are all those devices where battery replacement is not expected, but usually doable. Sure, you need a bit of experience and some tools, but that is not new or surprising. The most critical thing is however wanting to find out how to repair something.

Re:Dupe

[Rick Zeman]

This story is a dupe from my grandfather's generation, who cried about the same thing.

One huge advantage that the US had against the Japanese in WWII were soldiers and sailors in the field who'd been building and fixing engines and other mechanical devices since they were kids. The Japanese had to train theirs as adults..and there's no substitute for experience.

Re:Dupe

[peragrin]

Actually both paper and glass is being used more and more. Mainly because both are heavily recyclable.

Re:Dupe

[PRMan]

Replacing bad RAM on your motherboard absolutely IS fixing your computer. Just like when I replaced the window motor on my car, I bought a $25 sub-assembly and plugged in two wiring harnesses and put in 2 screws. Just because I never used a soldering iron doesn't make it invalid.

Re:Dupe

[Xel]

Okay, you could fix a toaster or a radio, but could you deliver a calf or clean a rifle? Every generation has things it can fix, and things it no longer can.

Re:Dupe

[NicBenjamin]

My "actual data" would of course entail my relatives and friends, who indeed can "fix shit", while the current generation is mostly useless in that regard. Can't solder, can't crimp, can't change an oil filter or even headlight bulb, can't measure nor cut nor fasten lumber, etc. etc.

You've got a really weird group of relatives and friends. My parents, step-mom, and assorted aunts and uncles include 8 people in the Baby Boom generation and approximately 0 know what crimping is. Dad and his brothers may be able to change an oil filter or headlight, but they long ago concluded that it made a lot more sense to pay somebody else to do that shit.

OTOH, a couple of my cousins can do most of that shit. Alan Lee has actually started business providing do-it-yourself services to people like my Uncle Alan.

Re:Dupe

[Xel]

37 year old here. There was a day when I couldn't change the oil in my car. Then I learned how, and now I can. The only reason I "can't solder" is because I've never needed to. The day I do, Ill go online, find out how, and teach myself.

Re:Dupe

[lgw]

Nah, it's nothing new. Friend of mine when we were teens had a 70s compact car - a VW Scirocco, or maybe that replaced this one - where you had to pull the engine to change the oil filter. No joke. The guy on the assembly line could install the filter easily because the engine wasn't in the car yet. Ahh, 70s cars.

Cars keep getting better - whens the last time you fiddled with points (or, heck, even had a mechanical distributer). What's changed is now there's no room in the engine compartment - everything's in there as tight as can be, to put maximum space in the cabin. There's a procedure and a tool for everything, and often service is easy if you've had the specialty training, but it's no longer designed for the average driver to just eyeball it and figure it out, beyond the most routine stuff.

Re: Dupe

[PsychoSlashDot]

There's your problem right there. Because you expect everything to be unfixable you assume replacing a bulb is beyond your capability. Fact is bulbs in cars are a darn sight easier to replace. ...

Incidentally... bullshit. I've got a modern (2008), Big Three car and to replace the headlight bulb, you literally have to remove the entire fascia from the car. Then you have to remove the headlight housing from the car. Then you have to excavate to extract the HID bulb from within the housing. This is nontrivial because you are working through a small hole to undo metal latches inside. Then you get to replace the actual bulb, which the oils on your skin can easily destroy. Finally, you reassemble the entire front-end of your car.

I've done it. But it's nowhere near as easy as my first car (a 1985 model, same manufacturer) was. That was trivial.

All of my corner lights and brake lights are trivial, but the headlights... nasty. This is simply because of all of the complex sculpted front-end structure. When cars were simple box shapes, it was easy.

Re:Dupe

[rubycodez]

at least there are great you-tube videos for those who do want to learn such things; more people should watch them

Re:Dupe

[lgw]

My "actual data" would of course entail my relatives and friends, who indeed can "fix shit", while the current generation is mostly useless in that regard. Can't solder, can't crimp, can't change an oil filter or even headlight bulb, can't measure nor cut nor fasten lumber, etc. etc.

"Kids these days couldn't adjust the valves on an engine to save their lives. By the way, kid, could you come by and fix my PC sometime, it's slow again."

What counts as a useful life skill changes slowly over time. What used to be skills to let you make cool stuff on the cheap from discards is now a mostly-useless expensive hobby.

Still, to some extent I agree with you. There's so little these days providing incentive to be "handy" for kids in day-to-day life that many just don't learn the basics, and couldn't, say figure out how to fix a stuck disposal by looking it over and then trying a few tools. Good thing there's Google - it's a different world now, where you can look up anything simple if and when you ever actually need to.

Re: Dupe

[rubycodez]

Really?, the people I know and myself have no trouble with those things. My dad and mom do those things!

Re:Dupe

[rubycodez]

No, it is about people and their abilities with the things they own. Big difference.

Re:Dupe

[FooAtWFU]

Oh really? Broken-window fallacy much? Think of what our economy could do if these people spent that laptop cash on something better...

Re:Dupe

[dbIII]

Nope. I don't know anyone over 50 who knows how to build or repair a steam engine

As an aside, the day before yesterday I was reading a current news article about the people involved in preparing a couple of steam locomotives and some rolling stock for a 4000km+ trip that's happening this year. One of those locomotives was actually built as late as 1956. While that's almost at the industrial scale there are a quite a few steam locomotives around the world that do short trips for tourists (as distinct from the long trip, spaced over months, for tourists above) as well as things like steam powered tugs and other historical ships/boats.

So while I agree with you I thought I'd mention it, also partly to balance the snarky dismissal from another poster who didn't appear to have read beyond your mention of a steam engine.

Re:Dupe

[rubycodez]

missing the point, talking about people's ablities with the things they have and use.

(yes, hunt and dress kill. butter and cheese no)

Re:Dupe

[ShanghaiBill]

Think of what our economy could do if these people spent that laptop cash on something better...

What is better than a brand new laptop?

Re:Dupe

[NicBenjamin]

If I was a betting man I'd bet he wouldn't only be complaining about handyman skills.

Women of his generation knew how to fix clothes. They could sew on patches, darn a sock, shank a button, etc. They needed to do this because back when he was born (probably the late 19th century) it would have been extremely unusual for people to have more then a couple sets of clothing and it would have been prohibitively expensive to travel all the way to town because Billy got a hole in his sock.

In theory most woman of the Baby Boom generation were taught how to do this in Home Ec., but it just doesn't make sense to repair clothes when every-damn-body has dozens of the damn things in the closet and you can get a new one for pocket money.

As time goes on the life-skills you need to function change, and the old generation always bitches to high heaven that the new generation can't do the old life-skills.

Re:Dupe

[luisdom]

Car factory worker here. Welding and paint shop is mostly automated nowadays, but assembly is 99% manual. It's just not designed with reparability in mind. Or it is, but in the sense that repair shops and sellers are here in Europe normally the same business , and with nowadays margins you better let them charge a whole hour to change a bulb.
Thank them they still let you change a fuse...
And for robot “reachability”, it's normally the other way around. Industrial robots in car making are bulky things not meant to access small or hidden spots. For that, it's better a human being.

Re:Dupe

[afgam28]

Then why is my over-50-year-old dad always asking me to fix his computer?

Re:Dupe

[gmack]

A few years back my friend went to get his BMW from my garage where he had left it for the winter only to find a flat tire waiting. I thought "no problem" we can just use the spare just as my father taught me. We pull the jack out that came with the car and attempted to jack the car up but the jack actually started to collapse under the weight of the car. At that point we gave up and called CAA and when the guy arrives says "why did you guys try to do this yourselves?" It seems the jack was mostly decorative.

Throw in modern cars with diagnostic readouts proprietary to the car and you find a car that is simply not designed to be repaired by anyone other than the dealership so don't blame training or our generation for the problem.

Re:Dupe

[dbIII]

No the professor is correct to being this up becuase she's addressing, and educating, the next generation of designers. It's something the kids should be aware of.
It's the same as when undergraduates complained to me about materials science practicals and how they should not have to do them because they were studying electrical engineering - if they don't know shit about physical properties how are they going to design something that doesn't fall into a pile of parts as soon as it gets bumped? When they get a job they can't depend on being part of a team that will cover major weaknesses in their education.
Design is more than looking good and performing a function. For example, some of the Apple computers (eg. eMac) looked nice but the procedure to change the hard disk or CDROM/DVD drive required almost complete disassembly and removal of more than 24 screws - a bad design.

Re:Dupe

[jellomizer]

Getting replacement parts is the biggest issue.
My garage door opener broke. I had to hunt around the Internet to find the broken worm gear.
I got it. It took days to ship.
When I got the part installed it works better then ever. But it is getting the right part which is the issue.
Perhaps with 3d printing we can make a lot of the missing parts.

Re: Dupe

[whoever57]

On my 2015 Subaru STI, I take off three clips and reach in to swap the bulb

On my somewhat older Subaru, the instructions for changing the bulbs in the tail lights are "take it to a dealer". It's not too difficult to change the bulbs, but it takes tools that most people probably don't have (ie. more than a Phillips screwdriver).

Re:Dupe

[penguinoid]

Fine, do you know how to churn your own butter or butcher your own chickens? My grandfather did all of these things, but my dad (who is still a farmer) has no idea how to do either. And even if you are one of the rare ones who knows how to do those things, I doubt almost all of your generation can.

What your generation forgot about growing your own food is in the same league as what our generation has forgot about how to fix our own appliances.

how to churn your own butter
how to butcher your own chicken
how to grow your own food

Do you think us younguns don't know how to do that stuff? It just isn't practical to do so, not worth the cost of labor. Same with repairing gadgets, especially when the problem is a burnt out/corroded circuit board or a broken not-sold-at-stores component. People haven't changed much, merely circumstances (mass production, disposable items, and we're no longer in the Great Depression).

As for not knowing how to do something, that is a problem that only old people who don't know how to use the internet have. Us young people have the problem of not thinking it worth learning how to do something (either due to economies of specialization, or laziness). Also occasionally thinking we know more than we do.

Re:Dupe

[russotto]

You replace a car battery maybe once every 3-5 years. Most people don't do it themselves, and it's not really a problem in an air-tool equipped shot to pull the wheel off (You don't actually have to remove the wheel, you can just turn it hard left, but it's easier if you remove it.) So it might actually be a reasonable trade-off to have the battery hard to remove in exchange for space somewhere else.

Cars where you have to remove the engine to change the oil filter (replaced much more often) are much worse.

Re: Dupe

[whoever57]

The filters, oil and disposal cost me more than paying some one to do it.

Really? In my city, there is free kerbside pickup of used oil and filters. For the same price as the paying someone else to do it, I can used the best quality synthetic oil and the best quality filters.

Re: Dupe

[Immerman]

My 2001 Volvo involves opening the hood, unscrewing the seal on the back of the headlamp, and replacing the $5 bulb. There are options if you care about ease of service and repair, you just have to actually consider that aspect when purchasing something, or get lucky. Otherwise you may well get stuck with something designed to be a revenue generator for dealer repair shops. (or appliances designed to be disposable as the case may be)

Re:Dupe

[AthanasiusKircher]

Fine, do you know how to churn your own butter or butcher your own chickens? My grandfather did all of these things, but my dad (who is still a farmer) has no idea how to do either. And even if you are one of the rare ones who knows how to do those things, I doubt almost all of your generation can.

I don't mean to be a jerk about this, but THESE are the two things you bring out regarding examples of difficult things your dad couldn't figure out how to do??

Churning butter only takes cream and agitation. You can do it in a mixer. You can even do it in a sealed jar just by shaking (though it will take longer). Eventually the proteins will separate from the whey, and you just form them into a glob, squeeze it out, and you have butter. That's it. There's no "secret" to churning butter.

As for "butchering" a chicken, I don't know if you're referring to the complete act of killing and prepping, or merely the work most butchers do these days, which is mostly a small amount of prep and then perhaps cutting the whole chicken into pieces like breasts and thighs. That later thing is anything any competent cook can do, and I could show you how to do it in about five minutes.

As for slaughtering, well, chickens are relatively easy. You can go for the messy way and just chop the head off, but if you prefer less mess and a calmer chicken, just use a killing cone, hang upside down, slit the throat, let the blood drain for a couple minutes. Dunk in scalding water, pluck feathers. The only mildly hard part is getting out the viscera, and that's only because you don't want to puncture the intestines (and get feces all over) -- so make a cut in the right place, then use you hand gently to yank them out. Cut off the feet and neck, and you're basically done.

Again, other than having someone show you how to cut to get the viscera out, this is a really easy process you can probably figure out pretty easily. It's not as hard as processing a large animal, where you actually want to produce useful cuts and such.

Sheesh. I mean, I understand that maybe your dad has no idea how to do these things, but he could basically become an expert on both of them in a couple hours. These aren't insanely complex tasks or anything that requires a lot of intuition and analysis coming from long experience.

Re:Dupe

[Falos]

Paying someone to build a laptop. Boom, the world now has two brand new laptops. Well, one's refurbished.

GGP may have some merit if such events manage to cause trickle down, at least. But the prole workers exist to shuttle money upwards (job exists because overhead's less than profit) so ultimately the re-purchase event is probably a funnel upwards, not down.

Toshiba and HP and Lenovo CEOs depend on these people.

Re:Dupe

[AK Marc]

So you are saying that my grandparents are better at fixing a 404 error than I am? My mother can't work her cell phone (eventually ported her number back to a land line). And had so much trouble with her laptop she eventually gave it up for an iPad. But the next generation can use them so much better, "fixing" problems with them that are less physical, and more user/programming based.

The parents value things differently, and that accounts for the vast majority of the difference. The kids these days can "fix" a locking up computer better than their parents.

we over 50 were taught to fix shit,

There was no qualification that it was only things they owned. Your new statement is a goalpost change from your previous assertion. It may be what you meant initially, but wasn't what you said.

Kids these days "fix shit", you just don't value the fixing they do. There's a difference. A Competent Man is a fictional creation the old people believe in. It's not as simple as when you were born.

Re:Dupe

[Immerman]

A bad design, or a good design for generating income for Apple repair shops?

Or if you're not feeling that cynical - Apple's design priority is aesthetics above all else. Their primary customer base are people that wouldn't want to open the case themselves anyway, so why compromise the aesthetics for ease of maintenance? Especially when a fair portion of them would almost welcome such a failure as an excuse to upgrade anyway.

That said, having once acquired a second-hand CRT iMac from such a person I do have to say YUCK! That thing was an affront to every DIYer on the planet

Re:Dupe

[FrnkMit]

It all started with this business of writing things down. People can't remember epics anymore! -- some old Greek dude

Re:Dupe

[dasunt]

That was a time when you could actually easily fix something. Take cars, for example. Fixing a modern car aside from trivial cases is not easy.

I may not drive the most modern vehicles, but they were built this century. Had a few problems with one - alternator went out (replaced it), serpentine idler pully locked up (replaced that - required disconnecting an engine mount), did the timing belt, pulleys and water pump at 100k, and had a faulty sensor, throwing the computer out of wack (pulled the trouble codes, did some research, pulled the sensor, tested the resistance (fine), threw it in some boiling water, and tested the resistance again (out of range) - hence explaining why the car would fail only once the engine was warmed up).

It's all in knowing what to do, and we're in the golden age of being able to research. I've worked on everything from refinishing wood floors (and damn they look good) to recapping electronics. And I'm under 40!

It's all in the attitude, the ability to search for help, and the patience and willingness to step back and think.

I think much of the excuse of things nowadays not being able to be fixed is people not willing to learn how modern things work.

Re:Dupe

[nmb3000]

Jamie goes to replace the battery in a Dodge Stratus they purchased and has to take one of the wheels off in order to access it

Not quite that bad, but I have an older Chevy Lumina and in order to replace the battery you have to

- remove a front-end crossbar, the bolts of which have about a 50% chance of being welded to the chassis with rust
- remove the windshield washer reservoir, which involves removing the pump that's attached at the bottom of the container (without spilling too much fluid on the battery)
- remove a bracket from overtop the batter which is connected to the chassis under the air filter housing, requiring at least a 10-inch wrench extender (12" is better)
- remove another bracket that holds the battery in place, also fixed with a bolt located 10 inches down a tiny hole.
- wrestle the battery out past the main fuse/distribution box, which it barely fits past without breaking it
- repeat the process in reverse with new battery

Here's a picture. It's a nightmare.

It's so bad I found several sites online describing the process and mocking the designers of the vehicle. I understand that space is at a premium under the hood, but FFS, this is just bad.

Re:Dupe

[CharlieG]

Not only can I fix a steam engine, I can build them :) (and yes, I'm over 50) - I can also design a circuit, and write code (which I do for a living)
Then again, I'm odd - I started my work life as a machinist, moved on to being an electronic tech, and then became a programmer

Re:Dupe

[Zeussy]

You missed: Timing belts, accessories belt, spark plugs, ignition leads, coils, distributors, ignition modules. Some transverse setups are a pig for these, especially transverse V6s. I make it a habit of when buying a used card, replacing most of that in quick shape.

Re: Dupe

[jd2112]

The filters, oil and disposal cost me more than paying some one to do it.

Really? In my city, there is free kerbside pickup of used oil and filters. For the same price as the paying someone else to do it, I can used the best quality synthetic oil and the best quality filters.

Even if they don't most places that do oil changes accept oil for recycling free of charge.

Re:Dupe

[Technician]

I made a hobby and career in electronics.

Early VCR's were expensive and repairable. You could buy parts such as pinch rollers, tape guides, video drums, etc. A $30 video head and a couple hours labor for replacement and full alignment would run close to $100 ( back when shop rates were ~35/hr.

VCR's became sub $100 devices and service people gave a few estimates and went out of business.

A common failure with microwave ovens is moisture gets into the keypad or LCD resulting in the conductive paint or ribbon failure. A timer can be had for over the price of a new oven. Even with free labor, it's cheaper to replace. Labor isn't free.

Me, I'm still in electronics, but no longer in consumer throw away junk. I service semiconductor equipment. $1-5 million equipment is still worth repairing. They don't let noobs practice on it though. Need other verifiable training and experience to even get considered.

There are tons of entry level positions that pay fast food rates. Look at ads for those wanting someone to fix smart phones. Assembly people working under microscopes get very little pay as it competes with overseas sweatshops.
Getting past that into a living wage is a little tougher.

Those with a student loan simply can't afford to even consider the field. About the only way in if you are interested is a few years in the military for both training and hands on in something besides entry level.

Straight electronics is easy to understand. not being a coder and having to rig up a JTAG connection to troubleshoot something that is undocumented is the pits. For an example of this pick up any used VOIP adaptor from the used market and try to unlock it. Unless you are really interested in learning to set up a server, wireshark, and possibly JTAG to get past a custom provisioned adapter is a total waste of time. There is no money to be made to offset the time investment in learning it. A New unlocked ATA can be had for under $50.

Paying u fix it fileds are NOT in consumer electronics. They are in HVAC, Plant maintenance, PLC programming, CNG, and other related fields. People will not pay much to repair the broken screen on a used phone. People will be desperate to get the spring replaced on the garrage door or heat pump fixed. Learn the going rates in the fileds. You are not going to pay for Obamacare and build a retirement nest egg fixing cell phones and flatscreen tv's.

Re:Dupe

[Applehu Akbar]

"This story is a dupe from my grandfather's generation..."

Those were the days! I remember standing in line to send telegram posts to Slashdot, then waiting all week for the printed edition to land in the mailbox.

Re:Dupe

[EETech1]

I used to do the fuel injection on these:

http://bigtimeclassifieds.com/...

With all the instrumentation (EGT AFR Knock etc) we had to have to monitor and calibrate three of these, changing out 24 knock transducer spark plugs with piezo cables on them while worrying about scratching a $200,000 paint job on someone's boat, with everything hot after running wide open for an hour, has my vote for biggest PITA.

Hint: The easy way is pulling the front two motors out, but it's hard to do that floating somewhere.

Cheers

Re: Dupe

[Zxern]

Or forget to put new oil in or replace the filter.

Re:Dupe

[I'm New Around Here]

Another problem is that the battery is also much closer to the ground, so if you drive through high water after a rain, your batter gets wet. My mom had one of those cars, and that did happen.

As for replacing it without taking off the tire, sure if you have a garage with a lift. Try doing that 'hard-left' trick with the car up on a jack in the parking lot.

Also, one of my customers had a friend who had that engine blocking the oil filter insanity. That didn't go so well either.

Re:Dupe

[AK Marc]

Yes, but you should be required to waste electricity to install an upgrade. The point is that the "repair" is harder today than it was 30 years ago. That's the trend. Especially when manufacturers will deliberately make things hard to repair.

Re:Dupe

[thrich81]

Let me tell you, as someone with a lot of experience fixing cars (most recently, pulled the engine and transmission from my '96 Volvo to fix a transmission input shaft leak), the fact that they aren't as easy to fix is not a problem. That's because they don't need to be fixed nearly as often. The old (make that "classic") musclecars from the 60's and 70's I grew up fixing, swapping engines, etc. needed something all the time -- points replaced, carburetors rebuilt, overhauls at 75,000 miles, brakes rebuilt every 15,000 miles, etc. You haven't lived until you have rebuilt a Quadrajet four barrel carb from 1975 and gotten all the little springs, metering rods, and gaskets back in correctly. Nowadays, except for oil changes, you can pretty much weld the hoods shut for the first 100,000 miles. And they run far better in every respect than the old,"fixable" ones. I do it as a hobby, but nope, I'll take the new cars any day. That Volvo engine pull will be my last. Same goes for electronics -- the old TV's, the "fixable" ones -- every few years it was down to the electronics stores for new tubes, if you could figure out which tube was bad, and didn't electrocute yourself on the high voltage supplies and capacitors in the process -- no thanks. Things are just better now -- if loss of fixability is the price, it's well worth it.

Re:Dupe

[rubycodez]

I am speaking of working on real world things, not twiddling knobs on what to the young generation are magic black boxes and giving up when that fails to for example look for simple electrical breakage; they do not "fix shit", they are clueless of how things work.

Re: Dupe

[Anonymous Coward]

Why does everyone forget to include the cost of their time? Figure it out; you'll be surprised. You'll find that, eg, driving 5 extra miles to the store with the $10 savings isn't worth it, because that's 20 extra minutes (city driving). Unless you _honestly_ enjoy changing your oil, or you have a specific reason (eg, I once had an unusual car that the dealer didn't care to work on properly) then it's probably not worth your time.

Re:Dupe

[HornWumpus]

You are talking about BMW. Inventors or the 'secret decoder ring' bolts/wrenches.

Cars were at their worst in the early 80s. I'll take LED lights inside trick light housings over computer controlled quadrajets any day. HID lights are enough of a pain that the first replacement should be LED.

We've got standard diagnostic ports and relatively simple injection/o2 sensor systems. Most reasonable cars work more or less the same.

TDI is a new kettle of fish, as is hybrid and pure electric.

Re: Dupe

[HornWumpus]

By the time the cars are out of warranty they have reverse engineered most of the codes.

But vendors of OBDII readers are scared, so you have to go to online resources to decode the extended information.

Re:Dupe

[AK Marc]

Yup, "I don't value what you do, get off my lawn." You didn't have anything valid to say. "Software isn't real, and fixing software isn't useful." I don't believe that to be a true statement. And the assertion by old people that the young generation can't fix anything is unsupported. They can't fix what you can, maybe, but there are things they can do you can't. You just don't value them.

Re:Dupe

[HornWumpus]

Bullshit.

Not knowing what cars you have had, I can say with confidence that they each had some major bitch and a half maintenance task.

Some are clearly better then others. But there is a nightmare in each one.

7th and 8th generation civics are the easiest cars to wrench in the history of cars. Beaters by now though. The sunroofs are a nightmare.

Re:Dupe

[AK Marc]

Yes, part of the point is that the makers make them hard to repair. Cost of upkeep hurting resale value isn't nearly as important as keeping a strong dealership through repeated expensive repairs. Then lament how the lazy children these days don't know how to keep their car running.

Re:Dupe

[rahvin112]

I can remember a Cadillac where to change the starter motor you had to take the head assembly off along with the dissembling of pretty much the rest of the engine to get to the point where you could take the head off. Because of all the labor it would cost like $1000 to change a $40 starter motor or a $5 solenoid.

Re: Dupe

[bill_mcgonigle]

it's a simple design choice ... that almost none of the manufacturers made before c. 1990. Lights were always trivial to change, so yes it is related to modern cars. Charge them under RICO if you want but more than likely it was simply follow-the-leader to increased dealer revenue.

Re: Dupe

[EETech1]

300M?

Re:Dupe

[stephanruby]

This story is a dupe from my grandfather's generation, who cried about the same thing.

You mean, this story is a re-run from Gilligan's island, except now George is the professor, not the skipper. And the characters have been switched around to avoid getting sued over copyright infringement.

Re:Dupe

[schnell]

It's just that when your washing machine's motor fails after a year, or you need to replace your convection oven's fan seven times before it stops making a buzzing sound, you realize that it's about as much about cost-cutting as it is about efficiency and actual, material gains.

I don't see it that way - I think that Dr. George is missing out on the real difference in generations. It's not that there's a new generation that is mechanically unable or prevented by evil industrial designers from repairing old products. It's that there has been a fundamental shift in the equation of time and money for many younger (educated, employed) people in the first world.

One of the things I never considered when I was in high school/college but appreciated dearly as I got older was that absolutely every decision in one's leisure time (at any age) was a function of money vs. time. At all ages of life, you have by definition more than one of the other. When I was in high school and working at Burger King, I was more than happy to spend a whole Saturday afternoon disassembling and reassembling my third-hand SLR camera to get the advance lever working again rather than taking it to a camera shop. In my post-collegiate bachelor days I unquestioningly built new PCs from scratch rather than spending the $100 (or whatever it was) markup to buy an equivalent one from a white-box computer shop.

Today? I'm 40-ish with a well-paying but time consuming job, a wife (who also works at a well-paid full time job) and two young children to take care of. I own a lawnmower but would rather pay a neighbor kid to do it so I can use that equivalent precious time with my kids, or even (a rare treat) taking a nap. I could save a reasonable amount by changing my own oil and filters (screw you BMW and your requirement for ludicrously expensive synthetic oils) but I take it to an auto shop because I don't enjoy the process and I'd rather have that time back to do something else. Time is important to me these days, not so much money, and that informs all my decisions.

Long story short - leaving money aside, many people from older generations don't "get" the modern emphasis on - MBA joke coming here - "the money value of time." Someone who says "why on Earth do you need to read your e-mail after hours?" is probably going to have no understanding of why you wouldn't want to buy something new instead of taking the time to repair it. If you don't have the money to pay someone else, or even better actually like repairing things then regardless of generation you will take the time to do so, I'm sure. But if - for generational, money or whatever reason - you are accustomed to time being more important to you than money, why not pay a professional to repair something or buy a new one?

Re:Dupe

[Charcharodon]

The reason you think it is hard is because you don't have the dealer repair manuals. Spend a few bucks and you will have step by step instructions on how to fix just about anything on your new car. And yes you can order them. Just tell the dealer that tells you no to fuck off and go to another one for both the books and the car. It's amazing how quickly they will change their tune and order you the books.

Re:Dupe

[EETech1]

I did a starter on a Chrysler 300M, and if you didn't want to take the exhaust and the motor mount off, you can take the solenoid off, then take off the starter motor from the snout, then take the snout off the block, and get it out in like 20 pieces.

After all that bull I really didn't want to put it all back together (paper clips in the brushes, shims on the shaft where I can't see) even though all I found was just a corroded steel on copper washer in the solenoid. I cleaned it up, and greased it up and put it back together, it seemed to work fine and it is still working 5 years later.

A new starter was outrageous, and the labor was even worse.

Funniest part was my friend watching me come out with piece after piece, I know she was wondering how it was ever going to go back together again, or if it was going to just crap out on her again (really a rusty washer??? All those pieces??? Should I just have it towed???)

Re:Dupe

[ArmoredDragon]

I don't think this theory quite explains it. I have my own:

In the past, nice things weren't necessarily easy to come by. Either most people were too poor to afford to simply dispose of the broken things so they fixed it themselves, or they were so pricey that it was worth paying somebody to fix it rather than replace it.

Take for example major appliances, like washers and dryers. It used to be that being an appliance repair man was a legit career (it still is on occasion, but rarely.) But now (and you can ask appliance repair people yourself if you don't believe me) people would rather just buy a new washer than have somebody fix the old one. Why? Because new ones cost less. The same can be said for TVs and TV repair men (there also used to be such thing as a TV delivery man who would come bring your TV to you and professionally calibrate it so that the picture would display straight -- a necessity that TVs haven't required for over 40 years now.)

Still though, poor people who can not afford to replace tend to prefer to try to fix it on their own, or ask a friend of a friend to help them out, or something similar.

The main reason we don't fix stuff as much any more, is that in spite of socialist doomsaying, everybody is now wealthier than we have been in the past. Rich and poor alike; all wealthier. The metric frequently used to argue that there are more poor now than ever is based entirely on income. However money is not wealth; income isn't either. Material goods are wealth.

To further drive this point home, let's look at Cuba's automobile economy. In Cuba, most people to this day still drive American made cars of the 50's era (the rest drive Russian made cars of sometimes later years.) This is mainly because after the communist revolution, cars were VERY difficult to obtain, and therefore expensive, so replacement was rarely ever an option. So, the solution to a car breaking down was to find *some* way to fix it, fighting tooth and nail to do so. In the US, if you wanted to keep a car from the 50's running well, you were just hell bent on keeping that "classic" alive, and it isn't cheap to do so either: Parts are scarce and usually involve finding some way of creating your own. The same was true for the Cubans, but for them it was far cheaper than replacing.

Re: Dupe

[ceoyoyo]

Because most people's leisure time has essentially zero cash value, particularly In small increments. Personal value can vary wildly on both sides of zero depending on how much you like/hate doing things to be self reliant and how much the bragging rights are worth to you.

Re: Dupe

[PlusFiveTroll]

The difference between your pre-90 car and a car now, is you were much less likely to walk away if your old car got hit. New cars are made of plastic crumply stuff on purpose. They are cheaper to replace than body parts. RICO wouldn't go anywhere, they'd just show they are trying to meet safety standards.

Re:Dupe

[bobjr94]

But my grandfathers radio's and tv's didnt use surface mount IC's with 20-80+ contacts on a chip. To put a jumper wire over a burned out trace or replace a burned resistor or capacitor isnt that hard and Ive done it many times. But when my motherboard dies, I order a new one.

Re:Dupe

[bobjr94]

It all depends on how its made. Some cars, you pull out 1 or 2 pins and the assembly pulls out, a 10 second job. And yes, some cars you have to pull a battery, bumper, grill. inter fender cover or use a tiny socket on a 2 ft extension trying to get a bolt out you cant see.

Re: Dupe

[ceoyoyo]

You know, the complaints about fixing apple stuff make me think there might be something to this.

You can change the battery in an iPhone in about five minutes if you already know which end of the screw driver goes in which direction. More like five if you've done it before. I once did one with no tool except a sharp kitchen knife because I was travelling and the screwdriver my friend got with the replacement battery was the wrong size. They've actually gotten easier to fix - the 3GS and prior had plastic cases with those annoying plastic clips. The replacement batteries are about $20. A spare battery for my Nokia cost about eighty dollars fifteen years ago.

Two of my cousins got notebooks for university. They're old now and frequently need something done. The windows one comes apart reasonably easily but again, plastic clips you can break if you don't know where they are. The apple one is all screws, and and only three easily differentiated sizes at that.

Re: Dupe

[DigiShaman]

It takes a village...

Re:Dupe

[DigiShaman]

Well, at least you can jump the bastard if needed.

I owned a 99 Miata in which changing the oil filter involved using a cut water bottle to capture the oil along with a baby diaper directly underneath it. And that's after turning the steering wheel completely in one direction to expose access to it. Otherwise, oil drips down the support member and dribbles two black lines of oil down the driveway. Fuck that shit! In fact, there are plenty of oil filter relocater kits because of that design flaw.

Re:Dupe

[jenningsthecat]

At least for automobiles, there's a simple legislative fix for this - if only government had the guts. Mandate that EVERY automotive engineer be forced to spend two months every year, (or one year in every four, or whatever), working in a dealership garage as an auto mechanic fixing the cars his company produced. A few experiences with having to lift an engine to replace an oil filter or a spark plug, (all the while listenening to the taunts of the 'real' mechanics he's working with), and that kind of design stupidity would stop right quick.

Yeah, I know it's a fantasy - but sometimes imagining a world where the government looks out for the interests of its citizens and the future of our planet by actually calling corporations to heel is all that keeps me going - especially when I'm faced with how determinedly stupid the human race can be...

Re: Dupe

[ceoyoyo]

So when you fixed those radios did you wind your own coils (or make the wire), blow your own tubes or fabricate your own transistors (depending on just how old you are and what kind of radios they were)?

There's always some level where it becomes silly to repair a broken part instead of just buying a replacement. The capability of the smallest reasonable part (especially electronic parts) has grown, but that's mostly because those things have become so ridiculously cheap.

I can remember checking individual cells in a cell phone battery once, when cell phones were gigantic and the batteries cost a fortune. Now you can get one for $20 and it's not worth the trouble.

Re:Dupe

[dbIII]

A bad design, or a good design for generating income for Apple repair shops?

A bad design for that purpose as well since it's a time consuming operation to get to the parts and it would be difficult to get the consumer to accept the full cost of the time. It was probably done at a loss with something else taking up the slack, and with warranty claims it's a losing prospect.
A design example for aesthetics that gets rolled out a lot was an early plastic kettle. It won awards, but it vented steam around the handle which burnt people, it couldn't take the heat over the long term so lasted less than a thousand uses, and the elements could not be replaced.
To me that's a failure. To a marketeer it's success. I think that's a short term view because the people I acquired the eMacs from (a 17 inch internal CRT model) have not used Apple computers in the years since, which sounds like a failure to me.

Re: Dupe

[dbIII]

Here is why I chose it as an example of something annoying:
https://www.ifixit.com/Answers...
Note that is starts AFTER removing the outer case, the faraday cage and one of the boards.
So that's really bad design compared with a battery replacement in a recent iphone where it's designed with replacement in mind.

Re:Dupe

[wagnerrp]

Now wait a minute. I thought BMW had hardpoints on the side of their vehicles, and a special jack that fit those hardpoints, specifically to make it easier to jack up.

Re: Dupe

[ceoyoyo]

Sewing isn't entirely useless. My mother taught me to sew, and we had mandatory home ec in high school (I'm male). I occasionally hem pants, have made emergency repairs to sails, tents, etc. I don't generally patch clothes, but if there's a shoddy seam in something (which seems to happen a lot now) it's nice to be able to spent two minutes to fix it instead of going out to replace it. It also impresses girls to no end when you can do something like replace a button of theirs that just fell off.

Re: Dupe

[ceoyoyo]

If everybody did that we'd soon realize that only about 20% of us actually do useful work. Then people might start doing things like working less. So they'd start enjoying their lives and having time to do stuff for themselves. THEN where would we be?

Re: Dupe

[bsd_usr]

I did the math at one point and realized it cost me money to change my own oil. The filters, oil and disposal cost me more than paying some one to do it.

You must not live in the US, because it's still cheaper to change it yourself and disposal is free. Just go to Walmart and buy a 5 quart jug of Mobil 1 synthetic (or to Costco when they have a 10 dollar off coupon for 6 quarts). Get your filter somewhere else, just don't get Fram. Wix are good though.

Most oil places charge you 70 bucks for full synthetic oil changes, but you can get 5 quarts of good synthetic for less than 30 bucks. A filter will be less than 10 bucks. So you're saving 30+ dollars. Also, oil disposal is free, just take it to Pep Boys, Jiffy Lube, O'Reilly, AutoZone, whatever. They take it. No questions asked.

Time? Takes no time at all. Because while the oil is draining you can inspect other items on the vehicle, such as tire pressure, power steering fluid, transmission fluid (if you're a girl and have an automatic transmission that is), and washer fluid. Stuff you need to do anyway. Once it's done draining, screw in the plug, change the filter (be sure to add a little fresh oil inside the filter and lube the seal - this is so that it fills quicker upon fire up), fire it up, and check for leaks. Done!

Re:Dupe

[Sardaukar86]

You are talking about BMW. Inventors or the 'secret decoder ring' bolts/wrenches.

I don't know anything about secret decoder ring stuff from BMW but this only means I have more to learn because this sounds very true to form according to my own limited experience.

My '04 745i sports a sealed unit for each headlight/parklight/indicator cluster. A failed bulb results in a NZD$3K+ replacement cost (plus labour if, like myself, you fear accidentally de-lugging the bumper and the dozen other things between the bumper and the headlight cluster).

Why yes, they did see me coming, thank you for asking!

Re: Dupe

[bsd_usr]

I'd still rather do it myself than have some shit head torque my oil plug to 200lbs.

Amen to that brother!!!

Some dip shit at Easy Lube or whatever it's called at the Long Beach Town Center (yeah, calling you out!) put an oil filter for a 2.0L. Ford Focus on a 2.3L Ford Focus and subsequently killed the engine. Why? Because the 2.0L has a much longer oil filter, so when you put it on a 2.3L it catches on road hazards ripping it out.

Re:Dupe

[Sardaukar86]

Now wait a minute. I thought BMW had hardpoints on the side of their vehicles, and a special jack that fit those hardpoints, specifically to make it easier to jack up.

That's certainly been my own experience, at least for models from '98 onwards.

Never had a problem changing a flat with the provided gear, unless you count being honked at by passing motorists for being so inconsiderate as to have a BMW with a flat tyre.

Re:Dupe

[adolf]

Replacing an incandescent bulb with an LED assembly is not a repair, but an upgrade.

Apple, meet orange.

Re:Dupe

[umafuckit]

Nope. I don't know anyone over 50 who knows how to build or repair a steam engine.

Why would you? Everyone over 50 was brought up with internal combustion engines, not steam engines.

Re:Dupe

[tlhIngan]

wrong, we over 50 were taught to fix shit, starting at age 10 in my case. Guys [1] usually fell into two categories, the electrical or mechanical.

[1] sorry wrong headed thinking about women meant females left out, though sewing and cooking are good skills everyone should have

But that's because stuff cost a lot more then than now.

I mean, in the 70s, 80s, if you wanted a big screen (larger than an say, 20" or so) TV, it could easily cost half a year's disposable income. If that thing failed, you're taking it to the repair shop because saving up meant giving up a lot for another half a year.

Cars too - these days, the modern new car basically needs very little done to it - change the oil every half year or so, and top up liquids. That's really all to it - you don't tinker with points, replace plugs, or do anything else until it gets to 100K miles or so at which point things are worn out to beyond tolerance. Back in the day, something was always failing or going rough or need tweaking so on the weekends you'd basically go fix it.

Same goes for everything else - I mean, today's TVs come in sizes we could never imagine even 10 years ago (I saw a 60" TV about 10 years ago and wondered at how big and unaffordable and luxury that is (think $20K). These days you can pick up one under $1000 on sale!). Nevermind back in the 70s and 80s where "big screen" was 19 glorious inches.

So yeah, today's stuff is far more reliable, and far cheaper than ever before. Moving a 60" TV for fixing - if it takes longer than about 4 hours, it's BER - beyond economical repair because the labor cost would be close to $500 already. Any more and you might as well pick up a new TV because you'd have spent that same amount.

If I had the money, I'd pick up the sweet 85" 4K TV I saw, but that was $17K. You bet I'd take it in for repair. But if it fails 10 years later, well, I could probably pick up one for $1000 and be done with it. I'd give the old set to the neighborhood kid who has nothing but a lot of time on his hands to try to fix - if he gets it working, he gets a free big screen TV (albeit oudated). If not, well, it just cost him some free time.

And that's the deal with things today - if my phone breaks, I won't bother fixing it - I could, and if it had sentimental value I would, but a new phone isn't that much more money.

And yes, I did the recycled computer thing too - work was selling their old PCs for $20 or so, and I picked one up, to experiment with. Turned out by the time I finished, I put in about $200 worth of parts, and no, $20 was its still expected resale value. By the time I got around to junking that machine, I had spent maybe $400 with upgrades along the way.

Repair is a hobby. Do it for fun in your free time. When my TV breaks, I won't fix it, I'd go out and buy a new TV and have it working in a couple of hours (including driving to the store and unpacking it). I can figure out what to do with my old TV later - recycle, repair it (myself - I can't pay a repairman to repair what is now a $800 TV new), or if it is somewhat functional, use it as a spare.

Anyhow, I wouldn't say today's kids lack skills - the maker movement shows that today's stuff is also a lot more complex - no longer just electrical or mechanical, it's both electronic, electrical, mechanical AND software all rolled into one.

Re:Dupe

[lister king of smeg]

My "actual data" would of course entail my relatives and friends, who indeed can "fix shit", while the current generation is mostly useless in that regard. Can't solder, can't crimp, can't change an oil filter or even headlight bulb, can't measure nor cut nor fasten lumber, etc. etc.

And for every millennial who can't change an oil filter or fasten lumber there is a 50 year old who can't program their digital clock or reconfigure their new cellphone without waiting for their kids to come home for the holidays. Different generations have different skills, and they usually align with the skills that were useful to them in their early life.

I think it depends on what people in that generation they look at, for example even though I am a member the described generation I can and have soldered electronics back to working order and spliced electrical cables, I can do minor car maintenance/repair and do complete teardowns of small engines (lawn mower, chainsaws etc) and fix them, I can build cabinetry and have roofed a building including making new trusses from scratch. I also know a number of survival/primitive skills, (rope making, fishing, trapping, fire building (sans matches and lighter) edible pants, etc. But then again I had parent that made me go into a scouts like groups and insisted that I take some practical classes in high school like small engines and made me learn to replace all of the fluids, spark plugs distributer and such before I could learn to drive. Then I have friends that look at everything as a magic black box that does things for the; then they take them to repair shoppes or buy new one when it stops. The big problem I see is people that have aren't taught the skills not because they are incompetent or uninterested but because then never were put it a situation to learn how and the up front cost to learn now it much higher because classes aren't free after high school and all there time is taken up working when classes are available.

Re:Dupe

[lister king of smeg]

Okay, you could fix a toaster or a radio, but could you deliver a calf or clean a rifle? Every generation has things it can fix, and things it no longer can.

clean rifle yes deliver calf never tried but have observed

Re:Dupe

[quenda]

You replace a car battery maybe once every 3-5 years. Most people don't do it themselves,

People cannot even swap the friggin' battery!? Seriously? If so, I think that is symptomatic of the creeping idiocy that TFA is complaining about.

Re:Dupe

[im_thatoneguy]

Nonsense, my dad couldn't fix our car or an appliance. He could build houses though.

If people were soooooo handy why were there so many appliance repair shops and car mechanics?

Re:Dupe

[Aighearach]

I'm only 38 and I fix stuff all the time. Most often it only requires pressing buttons, but I've saved my family thousands of dollars in my life so far just on repaired headphones. I see most people buying new headphones every 6 months or a year. A few stripped wires, a little burnt wire coating, tape, tie, done.

If the story is true it is great news. We'll be the first generation of retirees who are better at fixing things than the youngsters. Naw, the next generation will figure it out even if the millennials are airheads.

Re:Dupe

[Aighearach]

These days it is easy to fix something. Don't be an airhead Millennial. In the old days everything was easily accessed, but a huge amount of knowledge was required to fix anything beyond... what is still user serviceable! ;)

I wanted a new fuel filter, it was just as easy as ever. Meaning, not that hard but also a bit of a PITA, and dirty.

When something sounds wrong, I plug a $12 bluetooth adapter into the standardized vehicle data port that all semi-modern vehicles have, and I read the vehicle status and computer reports right from a tablet, sitting in the driver's seat. I don't have to be able to listen for engine knock; the engine has knock sensors and a standardized, open protocol for transferring that information to the user. This isn't the 80s-early 90s when fancy cars with computers required expensive specialized gear that was only sold to mechanics. Everything that is serviceable is more available to the user than ever before in the history of automobiles. Another great thing, there is less to service. Simple things like "serpentine belts" have really reduced the number of things that go wrong.

And if you want to take it to the next level, these days there are open hardware control platforms that you can install to replace the factory computer. Do-it-yourself isn't restricted to repair and accessories anymore.

Re:Dupe

[hyperfine transition]

>>Nope. I don't know anyone over 50 who knows how to build or repair a steam engine.
Amusingly, I know three, and one of them is under 50. But my sample is probably biased: the people I work with are all physicists or engineers.

Re: Dupe

[Aighearach]

Depends heavily on the car. Ok, in every car I've ever seen it is very possible to replace the bulbs yorself, but some of them are truly very badly designed resulting in lots of work. The best one I've seen so far was a Volvo, where you just unconnect a cable set, pick up a safety pin, and the whole headligh can be taken out from the front side. Super easy.

Most of these people aren't victims of bad design, they're victims of their own poor consumer choices. They don't choose the "ugly" car that has a utilitarian design and everything in the most convenient place, they choose the sleek rounded molded-looking thing, and sure enough, everything has to be carefully molded and put together like an onion to get that shape without using a bunch of heavy metal. So you have to take the bumper off to replace a headlight. It isn't a conspiracy. Different choices are available to the consumer.

"Nothing has changed" either, there were always cars that were harder to fix basic stuff on.

Re:Dupe

[Aighearach]

Drop in a LED (or worse: 'realy sheep shinese HID') and have your car impounded because you used replacement parts that weren't part of the original certificate of road-worthiness, and hence you made your car not roadworthy and thus illegal to drive in. Since you were driving at the time the fine officer stopped you...

(that cool headlight set will cost you several thousand dollars and a six months not having access to your car..)

You must be from some small dictatorship somewhere. Man, you have my sympathies.

Meeting people like you makes me really grateful to be an American.

Re: Dupe

[crowtc]

I'm a 40-something, and I used to handle maintenance on my car as well, but it's simply not cost effective anymore.

My car takes 6 quarts of SAE 5W20 - estimating a cost of $5.00/qt for semi-decent cheap oil, that is $30 right there. Add the $8 oil filter, and we're up to $38. Not counting my time, or costs of driving to purchase oil and dispose of it, we are now at almost $40.

I drive my car to the same shop, about 6 miles away from my house. In addition to the oil change, they top off the other fluids and check my brakes, hoses, belts, lights and even rotate my tires as part of a standard 'service visit'. All that for a 'package price' of $29.99. It was only $19.99 fifteen years ago, but cost have risen a little. The guy that owns the shop, and his small staff always pay attention to what they are doing, so I have had exactly zero major incidents with their quality of service.

I replaced the battery in my car recently and I ended up having to spend $20 on tools just to get to and remove the dead battery. The only reason I did that was because the shop was closed the week of Christmas and I didn't feel like bugging the owner.

Now, when it comes to electronics, I'm all over it. I've repaired a few televisions, my refrigerator, washing machines and several other electronic items around the house. Many smaller devices, however, seem to be designed to become basically scrap when they break.

Re:Dupe

[Aighearach]

I've got an LED assembly open on my workbench right now, it is from a bus interior (24VDC). All the parts are surface mount. Everything hand soldered. Even now things are done both ways with the same parts.

You should look at the robots used in auto manufacture. They're generally too bulky to reach anywhere a human can't. I recommend a tablet computer and a wireless web cam, so you can see what you're grabbing at. The robots have sensors on their hands, and can lift more than you. Those are their main advantages, not dexterity or flexibility.

The reason you have to take apart X, Y, and Z is only because the design requirements included "rounded," "maximum interior space to vehicle length" and "made of lightweight materials." There is no clear engineering solutions other than make it a giant molded blob that can't be taken apart at all, or make it like an onion. So they make an onion. A blockier shaped car, or one with less interior space to vehicle length, with likely have bolts in more convenient places; to both the human and the robot. The engineers don't make it hard to repair because of a conspiracy. They probably don't even like doing it. They do it meet the design requirements of some models.

Re:Dupe

[Aighearach]

What happened here is some blowhard bought a car without considering his design needs, and ended up with a car that didn't fit his needs or expectations. If they went ahead and made the car 6" longer and heavier, he may very well have passed over it in favor of something a little bit smaller, and with some trade-offs.

Re:Dupe

[ruir]

Thanks for the comment about the battery being low. I will surely use your insight in my next car purchase. I also have an Opel Meriva, know as vauxhall in the uk. The headlights are not a small feat to exchange, the rear lights are too much work to bother, much better taking the car to the garage. Last time I did that, I almost break some of the shell where they are all enclosed.

Re:Dupe

[Aighearach]

You replace a car battery maybe once every 3-5 years. Most people don't do it themselves,

People cannot even swap the friggin' battery!? Seriously? If so, I think that is symptomatic of the creeping idiocy that TFA is complaining about.

Even worse, people don't even read anymore.

What he said was not that people cannot swap a battery. What he said was that most people do not swap a battery themselves.

I do agree it is symptomatic of the creeping idiocy that TFA is pointing out.

I did recently swap my own battery, but that is only because I like it that way, not because I did any better of a job than a wrench-monkey would do. A lot of places offer free installation anyways.

Re:Dupe

[ruir]

Many also forgot how to cook real meals...

Re:Dupe

[Aighearach]

In what way would that change what the product executives tell the engineers to build?

Re: Dupe

[Z00L00K]

And then you can realize that Subies are one of the more DIY-friendly brands out there.

Other brands are next to impossible unless you first detach the driveline and lift up the body from the driveline.

Re: Dupe

[Z00L00K]

What you forget is that some workshops take shortcuts and use the cheapest possible oil and filter - if they even do the change.

Re:Dupe

[Aighearach]

A couple months ago I was on the coast in a rain storm, and a guy with a Ford truck was stopped on the side of the road, laying under it abusing his fuel pump with a tire iron. It would eventually click on and he'd jump in and start it, drive 10-20 feet, and it would die and he'd crawl under again. In the time it took me to eat my sandwich he made it a few hundred yards. The whole time I was thinking, he'd get home a lot faster in a tow truck, even if it beating on it with a tire iron does sometimes help. I could tell by his frustration that in the past the "fix" had been more effective.

Re:Dupe

[Z00L00K]

Add to it all the special tools needed.

Re:Dupe

[Aighearach]

You can also get $12 bluetooth readers that use a phone/tablet as the display. All the information is easy to access these days. It is like a golden age.

Your mentality may run deep, but it only extends to your forehead.

Re:Dupe

[quenda]

> A lot of places offer free installation anyways.

No such thing as a free lunch. Isn't your local *mart a lot cheaper without install?
Unless you have a chauffeur to take your car for a new battery, you are going to be waiting around while they lift out the old and drop in the new, so no time saved.

But on reflection, you probably live in a country with low minimum wage and cheap service. Mechanics around here are expensive, and I should adopt a more global perspective. I hear some countries even still have places where people will fill your petrol tank for you.

Re:Dupe

[kyrsjo]

Still, sometimes fixing things yourself *saves* you time and frustrations, as you can do it when you want, not having to coordinate with a technician.

Re: Dupe

[Anonymous Coward]

True re other value like bragging rights. And true that leisure time has no cash value. But I think it has equivalent value. That 20 minutes to save $10 could be spent doing something worth $10, like reading. Think of it as buying time.

Re: Dupe

[PsychoSlashDot]

Charger R/T.

Re:Dupe

[RuffMasterD]

Fast women.

Re:Dupe

[Aighearach]

Your "reflection" is rather... weak. It doesn't take a mechanic to install a battery, so just basic mechanics and you're already outside your areas of knowledge.

Why do you assume that in a backwater like the USA that auto shops would have expensive batteries? The advantage that the "*mart" has on car parts is that they're open longer hours, and you're already there buying something else. There is no reason for them to have lower prices on car parts, because even with higher overall sales than an auto parts store, they're probably not actually selling more car batteries. And it would make a horrible loss-leader because if you're buying a car battery it is probably not a normal shopping trip and so you're less likely to fill a cart with other stuff. And for an auto parts store, it is a no-brainer; they can have any retail clerk also install a battery. You probably assume you won't save time, because your job is already as a wrench-monkey. It is funny though that you think only a rich person with a chauffeur would be slower at changing a car battery than somebody who does it every day. Also, you seem to just assume that for other people it is automatic that changing it yourself more slowly, for the same price, is qualitatively equal to having somebody else do it. You can't have it both ways; if it is so quick and easy to change it yourself, then it hasn't cost the shop much at all to earn the goodwill of customers by helping with the easy stuff that doesn't require a mechanic.

A lot of computer stores will install RAM for free, too. It doesn't actually have to change the price, or cost them anything. If the store is busy, you'll just have to browse a few minutes before they finish it.

Actually in my State the only way you can buy gasoline is to have a professional pump it for you. People from other places whine about it a lot, but I've never once heard a good reason why they're against it. Studies have proven that you don't save a single penny by pumping it yourself; the price of gas is not in any way tied to the cost of operating the terminal pump. I've certainly never heard of a gas station (outside the Middle East) that sets their prices based on cost.

In some countries they have awful service, just because they have a culture that assumes good service would be expensive. Here in the modern world, we know that good service is good business, and it increases profit, it doesn't decrease it. And it doesn't have to cost more. It does require workers with a good attitude, something not available in all localities.

Re:Dupe

[msauve]

Huh? First, the GP is apparently not from the US and second, the US MMWA addresses warranties not regulation of motor vehicles.

(And if you meant that to imply that the MMWA means you can add on any aftermarket piece of crap to a car with no effect on the warranty, you're wrong again.)

Re: Dupe

[murdocj]

Of all the things I might consider when buying a car, the ease of replacing the headlight is pretty far down the list. Once every 5 years I'm going to have to pay my garage $20 to replace the light. I'm sorry, I'm just not going to worry about it.

Re:Dupe

[Drethon]

I have a newer Chevy Impala with much the same design. I'm hoping I never have to replace the battery. My Taurus on the other hand came out so easy I'm worried the new battery wont stay put. So far so good.

Re:Dupe

[zwarte piet]

I wouldn't call TDI new. They've been around since at least the nineties.

Re:Dupe

[AmiMoJo]

There are two separate issues here. Diagnostics and the actual repair.

Diagnostics are actually easier for the lay person these days. Plug in a cheap OBD-II device (£5 from Amazon) and use an app on your smart phone to read the error codes off. Now you know what is wrong, or can just google the codes if it isn't immediately obvious.

Repair depends on the make of car and how well it was designed, and I don't think older cars ere necessarily better. Old Renaults were always a bugger to work on, for example, making simple fixes like changing the alternator belt a pain in the arse. On the other hand some modern cars make repairs like changing light bulbs and fuses pretty easy and accessible.

I wouldn't say it is any worse now, and of course cars these days are much more reliable.

Re:Dupe

[AmiMoJo]

It's just that when your washing machine's motor fails after a year, or you need to replace your convection oven's fan seven times before it stops making a buzzing sound, you realize that it's about as much about cost-cutting as it is about efficiency and actual, material gains.

We have a solution to that in the UK called the Sale of Goods Act. One of the provisions of this act is that products must "last a reasonable length of time", with reasonable ultimately being up to a court to decide. For example, a really cheap laptop might only be expected to last four years, but a more expensive might be reasonably be expected to last six or more if looked after.

The retailer is on the hook for this requirement. If after two years your cheap laptop dies you can go back to the retailer and ask them to either fix it or give you a 50% refund (since you only got 50% of the expected 4 year life span). Doesn't matter that it's out of warranty, the law still applies.

If manufacturers of white goods use parts that quickly fail and are expensive to put right, retailers will stop selling their products. It's the retailers that end up paying for the repairs or replacements.

Re: Dupe

[Gilgaron]

My Mazda 3 manual said the same thing, but a quick search online showed that it was actually a fairly easy and tool-less operation. The manual admonished the owner doing it for some voltage danger nonsense... I think the real reason was that it was a little tricky in the dexterity department. I imagine with a specialized tool it'd be fast, and I imagine it is designed with the initial assembly cost in mind more than the maintenance cost.

Re: Dupe

[JudgeFurious]

My mom's 2003 VW Passat needed a new battery so I went over to her house to replace it. Found a replacement battery for like $50 or so and then when I got to her house I pulled out my smartphone and looked up instruction for replacing the battery on a 2003..... "Step 1: Remove the windshield wipers". WTF? The battery is up by the firewall and there's a plate under the wipers that has to come off for you to remove it. Called Firestone. They carry the battery and will install it for around $20 more than I would have spent for the batter alone. Doing it myself is just not worth the trouble.

Re: Dupe

[Gilgaron]

Ah, but at that point don't you have to weigh the cost of the bulb versus differences in fuel economy due to boxy utilitarian vs molded shapes?

Re:Dupe

[RabidReindeer]

I had a dentist whose Jaguar supposedly required the engine to be pulled in order to do a tune-up every 6 months because it was the only way to get at the sparkplugs. Some Cadillacs reportedly had this issue as well.

A Ford I used to own required pulling the dashboard to replace the heater core. Which is bad enough, but the mechanics cracked the dash. since by that time the plastic had become more brittle. The Ford I owned prior to that one could have its heater core replaced by simply undoing 2 wingnuts, removing a cover plate and lifting.

Electronics, however, are a different matter. You often have no more than 2-3 chips doing the heavy work and they're wave-soldered to the board, So lots of luck there. I did have to heave a perfectly good TV set with excellent picture though because apparently a 15-cent low-voltage capacitor managing the vertical height went sour and there were no available schematics.

Stuff like calculators are the worst, though. Bought one in the late 1980's for $5. Fully warranteed. If it failed, send $6.50 for postage and handling to the warranty deport. When the batteries died, a new set ran about $7.

Re:Dupe

[coofercat]

A good while back, an "overhead cam shaft" was a selling point (maybe not a major one, but it was mentioned openly by dealers/manufacturers). Nowadays, as noted above, the camshaft might as well be in a locked vault at the dealers house for all the serviceability benefits it has.

Things aren't repairable because we don't want them to be. If we all asked manufacturers for service manuals, they'd get around to writing some ;-) Of course, since this is /., I should also mention that DRM is specifically created to stop repairs (or modifications).

Re:Dupe

[RabidReindeer]

Nah, it's nothing new. Friend of mine when we were teens had a 70s compact car - a VW Scirocco, or maybe that replaced this one - where you had to pull the engine to change the oil filter. No joke. The guy on the assembly line could install the filter easily because the engine wasn't in the car yet.

I've seen video footage from factories where the engines were installed from the bottom. No auto shop I've ever been in was equipped to do that that I know of. They had to do it the hard way, removing the hood.

Re:Dupe

[vtcodger]

"Take cars, for example. Fixing a modern car aside from trivial cases is not easy"

Actually, that's not as true as most folks think. Fortunately, thanks mostly to the Japanese and no thanks whatsoever to "Detroit", modern cars are quite reliable despite having an awful lot of parts, The few things that actually require maintenance -- brakes, oil filters, light bulbs, timing belts, spark plug wires, exhaust parts, and the occasional broken sensor -- can be replaced by a shade tree mechanic with a few hundred dollars worth of tools, and a place to work on the car.

I've maintained my own cars for three decades, and it's not that hard once you find a copy of the service documentation and get to know the car. Only hobby I've ever had that showed a profit.

I'm not so sure about the current crop of electronic wonders. They seem to me to have an awful lot of dubious features and rather a dearth of useful documentation about what all those little CPUs are up to. I suspect that they may not age well.

Re:Dupe

[c]

And the reason is ... because the stuff used to be BUILT by people.

Well, no.

The reason a lot of things are hard to repair now is because they are built by people.

The problem is that people are (relatively) expensive, so things are designed for manufacturing efficiencies that reduce the amount of time people have to touch them.

One of the most obvious consequences it that complex assemblies are typical built from the inside-out, because it's way faster to install an engine if the suspension, fenders, bumpers, and hood aren't already on. A good designer will try ensure that things which tend to break are as accessible as possible, but repairability is only one constraint in a whole list of competing requirements.

The guy on the assembly line can reach the bolt, but that bolt is as good as gone once the next guy on the assembly line glues a part over it.

Re:Dupe

[rot26]

From Mercury, one of the ORIGINAL manufacturers that did everything possible to prevent owners from doing their own maintenance. My grandfather, who raced boats in the 50's and 60's, complained about this his whole life.

Re:Dupe

[Trax3001BBS]

I'm 16, I fix things quite often. I fix broken computers, I fix broken tractors, I fix broken power tools, I fix furniture. I can sew, knit, weave, spin, and work with leather and wood.

My Mom taught me to crochet and knit one day, when my Dad came home he had a fit I guess it was too girlish for him.

I can or like to think I can fix anything, but wood work (building something from wood) I always (always) screw up (over 50).

Re:Dupe

[LordWabbit2]

Haynes manuals are normally just as good (if not better since they give tips and advice, and howto's as well) Or you could just buy the workshop manual online, a couple years ago I bought the workshop manual for my CX500T - which is a pretty rare bike with no Haynes manual. There's one for the normal CX500, but not the CX500T and other than the physical engine the bikes are WAY different, one is aspirated the other fuel injection, with all the extra plumbing and wiring that entails.

Re:Dupe

[GLMDesigns]

If your coffee grinder doesn't work because the electric cord was left on the stove and burned would you know how to fix it? A friend of mine was going to through his out. I cut out the burnt wire; stripped the rubber; spliced the wire together; used some electrical tape and VOILA. It works. No need to throw it out. No need to go to the corner bodega for coffee or buying ground coffee. 5 minutes and you're done.

This wasn't difficult. My willingness and ability to fix it doesn't mean as much as their inability to fix it.

Re: Dupe

[Pascoea]

For standard oil I would tend to agree with you. It's hard to buy all of the components necessary for the 19.95 (or whatever) that wal*mart (or whatever) charges. The trouble is when you go to get a synthetic oil change the price doubles or triples. I can find a 5qt jug of good synthetic and an oil filter for less than 30 most of the time.

The half hour of my time, an hour if you count the trip to the auto parts store, is well worth it to know exactly what was done to my car. I've heard too many horror stories about what happens in those oil change places.

Re: Dupe

[Pascoea]

Incidentally... bullshit.

Agreed. Owner of a 2010 Subaru Legacy. When the second line of instructions (after "remove these three fasteners") is something to the effect of "Pry the inner fender well out of the way", your design sucks.

If you can't replace a headlight bulb on the side of the road, in the dark, by yourself, with zero tools and without crawling on the ground, your design is broken.

Re:Dupe

[Alioth]

What requires incredibly fancy machinery to fix?

While it takes some knowledge to fix a lot of things, fixing for example a faulty washing machine most of the time needs nothing more than basic hand tools and the ability to diagnose what is actually broken, then buying the replacement part.

There are some things that will require fancier stuff to fix, for instance replacing a chip in a BGA package on a circuit board requires specialist tools but a huge number of repairs don't require this kind of thing to be done.

Re:Dupe

[internerdj]

A coworker of mine bought a new Charger a couple of months ago. He wanted fog lights but couldn't get the deal he wanted for one that did. He bought some OEM fog lights and the final step of installation was having a dealership register them with the manufacturer and then the manufacturer confirmed with the car's local computer that there were fog lights installed. He had to drive 50 miles to find a dealership who wouldn't charge more than the installation fee to register the things.

Re: Dupe

[FictionPimp]

Exactly! I do contract work at $150 an hour. So any time I have to myself either has to be fun and enjoyable, or save me more than my $150 an hour rate. If it takes an hour to do and someone can do it for me for $50 bucks, then I'm going to pay for it. Not because I don't know how, but because I'd rather use that time doing something enjoyable.

Speaking of this, anyone have a service for going clothes shopping with your wife?

Re:Dupe

[Maxwell]

Headlights aren't covered under cars warranty anyway. The EU and Canada/USA have a set of requirements for lighting. Your local cop is not equipped with a photmeter so cant perform the test at roadsise anyway (see FMVVS section 108, 564)

OP was sold a scary story at the dealer.

On topic: there used to be two headlight types in - round and square. Easy to replace. Pop out, pop in. Once that restriction was lifted, they got more complex and more difficult to change the bulb...

Re:Dupe

[fnj]

Wrong car. I owned 70s VWs - a Rabbit and a Scirocco - and they were absolute masterpieces with respect to maintenance. The oil filters spun right off no problem. I should know; i lay on my back and did it myself enough times. There were vast amounts of open space under the hood. I was able to do the points and plugs myself many times with no struggle at all. I changed my own timing belt on a lark, and trust me I had NO experience. It was absolutely a piece of cake; the engine was non-interference, so no matter if I screwed up the cam timing it was IMPOSSIBLE for a valve to hit a piston. But I didn't screw up anything. It fired right up and purred when I was done. Took minutes, literally.

By the late 90s, all that had changed, at VW and every place else. The 99 Golf I still drive is a nightmare to do anything on. I've seen a mechanic struggle endlessly, cursing, with changing a snap-in headlight bulb that should be a 60 second job. There is just no room anywhere.

I've had TWO expert, experienced mechanics work together overtime for more than 8 hours just to change the timing belt. That particular job requires removing the engine mounts, suspending the engine, locking down the timing relationships with surgical precision using $200 worth of special tools, and following an intricate 200+ page procedure which I had spent weeks studying and researching the internet. I tried their patience by looking over their shoulders the whole time, calling out essential details I thought they were missing, making sure they turned the tensioner the right direction, etc, etc. The three of us probably spent at least $1500 in labor equivalent, and the parts totaled well over $400, including one-time use bolts. If the cam timing had been more than a single tooth off, the engine wouldn't have turned over for the hand check at the end. A little bit less off, and the valves could have kissed the pistons imperceptibly, a classic debacle for timing jobs on these engines which invariably results in the engine suddenly becoming a total wreck a couple of thousand miles later when a valve finally gives it up and drops.

It's pure INSANITY. All the tradeoffs are insane. Worshipping at the altar of aerodynamics has resulted in machines which any work under the hood is literally an expensive nightmare. I would buy another 1977 Rabbit base model in a HEARTBEAT if they would tool up and make it again. It weighed half as much as the current Golf and was significantly roomier inside, did not need power steering, even parking was light as a feather unassisted, there were no electric windows to jam or crash down inside the doors or have the motors fail, there was no alarm system to make false alarms. Best of all, there was no processing unit whatsoever anywhere in the car. Engine controls were vacuum advance and all-mechanical trouble-free fuel injection, PERIOD.

If I was worried about theft to park it in a bad area, I just spent five seconds unplugging the fuel pump relay under the dash.

Re: Dupe

[greenfruitsalad]

Somebody forgot to tell Renault. I used to have a Renaulte Megane (2007). Changing the bulb took 30-40 minutes. It involved wiggling your arm through opening in the wheel arch and breaking it in several places. There was an episode of Fifth Gear about that - https://www.youtube.com/watch?...

The alternative was to go to official Renault garage and pay 35 GBP (53 USD) for a single bulb change.

Now I have a brand new Toyota hybrid and the process is similarly idiotic.

Re:Dupe

[finkployd]

Depends on the car. Jeep Wranglers are not bad.

Re:Dupe

[kilodelta]

Churning butter is easy. Just requires effort and heavy cream. Into a container and shake it for about fifteen minutes. What you get out the other end is butter and buttermilk.

Re:Dupe

[kilodelta]

Old TV's were parts harvesting extravaganzas for me. Played with a lot of high voltage stuff when I was a kid - knew how to protect myself but it gave my mom fits.

Re:Dupe

[Maxwell]

great, except that is not what electrical tape is for. You should have used wire nuts (or 'caps') to connect the two wires. Heat degrades electrical tape, and a coffer grinder draws enough current to heat the cable. And it is likely in the kitchen where it may be exposed to more heat anyway. Your friend should smile nicely, thank you, then throw it out and buy a new one...

A proper fix would be to replace the cord at the terminals on the grinder. This would require disassembly, and may not be possible depending on the design. Anything else is a hack. Like the article says "young people are a lost generation who can no longer fix gadgets"

Re:Dupe

[MobyDisk]

That's actually hilarious. While I applaud that they display the error code, it is funny that it requires a convoluted "special knock" to make it display the error code. How about just displaying the code right away? Or a button labeled "display error message?" If someone built a car that sang the error by Morse code after you opened the front passenger door 3 times would we call this good design?

Re:Dupe

[DerekLyons]

There was an amusing scene in Mythbusters about this, where Jamie goes to replace the battery in a Dodge Stratus they purchased and has to take one of the wheels off in order to access it. Needless to say he was unimpressed; I think his quote was "You see, what happened here is some idiot designed this in a computer and didn't think."

No, what happened is Jamie is an idiot - applying the standards of batteries decades ago and his personal bias as tinkerer to a place where they are inappropriate. We don't replace batteries practically annually (as was the habit up until not too long ago) and we no longer need to routinely check the water levels and clean and tighten the terminals. With batteries that routinely last several years and which require zero maintenance - there's no need for them to be routinely accessible.

Re:Dupe

[unitron]

Replacing bad RAM on your motherboard absolutely IS fixing your computer. Just like when I replaced the window motor on my car, I bought a $25 sub-assembly and plugged in two wiring harnesses and put in 2 screws. Just because I never used a soldering iron doesn't make it invalid.

And therein lies the difference between fixing by repairing and fixing by replacing.

You're ahead of those who aren't even aware of the concept of a wiring harness, but way behind the person who would have fixed by repairing by rewinding the motor.

Re: Dupe

[invid]

I used to work on my '78 Chevy Nova because it was easy to reach all the parts of the engine. You could practically climb into the engine compartment. When I look at the engine compartment in my Ford Focus the parts are fitted as tightly as the stones in Machu Picchu. Now I take my car to the shop and let them handle it.

Re:Dupe

[GLMDesigns]

They've been using it over a year with no issue. I was there over Christmas and re-wrapped the electrical tape. (They had made a bubble by adding more layers to it as the ends kept lifting up. I took it down to the wire and re-wrapped it. The reason I didn't use wire nuts was that it would look butt ugly and I was just doing a temporary fix so that we could have coffee.

As often happens though temporary becomes permanent. The wire can be replaced at the terminals and if they still have it next time I go there I should do that. Nonetheless at the time I was there they hadn't brew coffee for two days as they couldn't grind their beans and were trying to decide which grinder to buy - and I wanted my coffee and the corner bodega was closed.

Re: Dupe

[virtual_mps]

Who the heck replaces a headlight on the side of the road in the dark? You'd have to 1) have the lightbulb and 2) (probably because of #1) already be down one headlight (they do come in pairs). The optimal solution would be to just get the bulb replaced when it burns out rather than being a lazy SOB and driving around with a bulb in the trunk without actually installing it.

Re: Dupe

[Pascoea]

Who the heck replaces a headlight on the side of the road in the dark?

The guy on a late night long distance trip in the middle of nowhere that happens to keep a spare bulb in the trunk?

they do come in pairs

I know. That's why I have a spare in my trunk, because when I replaced the pair I put the old non-burned out one in the package and put it in my trunk. Ya know, so I have a spare bulb if one burns out while I'm in the middle of nowhere in the middle of the night.

But, back to my original point, if you want something more realistic: If you can't replace a headlight bulb by yourself with zero tools and without crawling on the ground, your design is broken.

Re:Dupe

[msauve]

"Headlights aren't covered under cars warranty anyway."

Bulbs, maybe not. Lamps certainly are, at least for any reasonable warranty. The OP doesn't appear to be from the US, and to be subject to regulations which prohibit changes to some equipment with which the vehicle was originally certified. US FMVSS doesn't apply outside the US, as much as the US would like to think it rules the world.

Finally, at the time rectangular lamps became legal in the US, there were 4 different types of sealed beam headlamps available - 2 and 4 beam systems in both round and rectangular.

Re: Dupe

[twistedcubic]

I *used* to think car lights were easy to replace, since my first cars were early 1990s Saturns where you only needed to unscrew the cover and replace the headlight bulbs. It was almost as easy as changing a lightbulb in your house. And then I tried the same on my wife's Honda Civic, which was, well, not as trivial, and obviously by design.

Re:Dupe

[Blrfl]

There was an amusing scene in Mythbusters about this, where Jamie goes to replace the battery in a Dodge Stratus they purchased and has to take one of the wheels off in order to access it. Needless to say he was unimpressed; I think his quote was "You see, what happened here is some idiot designed this in a computer and didn't think."

What happened there was a special effects guy with no experience in designing products that had to last longer than film production shot his mouth off.

Putting the battery where it was had four benefits. First was that it lowered the car's center of gravity slightly by not putting the additional weight up high. Second was that it added some counter to the weight of the transmission, most of which was on the opposite side of the car and at about the same level. Third, it allowed for a much lower hoodline. Fourth, and most important, was that it got the battery out of the engine compartment, where there's no shortage of a battery's biggest enemy: heat.

That arrangement does actually work well. I bought a car on the LH platform (the Stratus was the smaller JA) in 1999 with the same arrangement and drove it daily through 12 years of hot summers and cold winters, all with the same battery that rolled off the assembly line with the rest of the car. It still started the car just fine, but while doing some other work before giving it to a relative, I threw in a new battery so the new owner wouldn't have to.

Re:Dupe

[Blrfl]

wrong, we over 50 were taught to fix shit...

You were taught to fix shit because it was shit.

Re: Dupe

[virtual_mps]

I meant they come in pairs on the front of the car. I generally buy them one at a time. If you replace headlights at a rate that requires you to buy them in bulk, you may be installing them improperly.

Re: Dupe

[T.E.D.]

Well, if its something you enjoy doing (like say enough to volunteer to work on your neighbor's) that's a different kettle of fish.

But for the vast majority of maintenance work, there are other things I'd rather be doing with my free time. Add to that the fact that I can get more paid overtime at work if I want it, and the calculation becomes fairly simple: would I be financially better off spending the time to (inexpertly) fix it myself, or drop it off with someone who fixes that issue every day, and spend the time I'd spend hacking on it at work earning money?

Re: Dupe

[Pascoea]

Headlights should be replaced in pairs. If one went out, the other is (more than likely) shortly behind it.

Who said anything about needing to acquire them in bulk? Buy a two pack, replace them both, put the spare in the trunk. Why is that such a hard concept?

Re:Dupe

[judoguy]

No kidding. When I had a '46 Dodge panel van, I once replaced a broken piston by pulling the oil pan and rotating the crankshaft enough to pull the piston out and replace it. Part of that was simply clearances but it's an example. I once replaced the slant 6 engine in a '72 van by myself in a parking space over a weekend.

I couldn't replace the spark plugs in my Expedition. I probably could given enough time and some specialized tools, but damn, what an ordeal it promised to be. On the other hand, I've done a boatload of residential wiring from knob and tube to modern. Almost all household electrical should be easy for anyone to do with a little reading. Most modern plumbing is also a lot easier than the old stuff.

Re: Dupe

[virtual_mps]

I used to replace in pairs, don't anymore. (The bare halogens are best just left alone. On my current car, the left bulb lasted 6 years longer than the right.)

The one in the trunk is likely to fail from rattling around in the trunk.

And regardless of whether I had a spare bulb, I'd never stop on the side of the road to change it, I'd just drive on the remaining light until a more convenient time.

Re:Dupe

[dcollins117]

As for slaughtering, well, chickens are relatively easy. You can go for the messy way and just chop the head off, but if you prefer less mess and a calmer chicken, just use a killing cone, hang upside down, slit the throat, let the blood drain for a couple minutes. Dunk in scalding water, pluck feathers. The only mildly hard part is getting out the viscera, and that's only because you don't want to puncture the intestines (and get feces all over) -- so make a cut in the right place, then use you hand gently to yank them out. Cut off the feet and neck, and you're basically done.

Stop already, you're making me hungry!

Re: Dupe

[Pascoea]

The one in the trunk is likely to fail from rattling around in the trunk.

You must get off on pedantry. Fine, put the fucker in the glove box where it isn't going to bounce around.

And regardless of whether I had a spare bulb, I'd never stop on the side of the road to change it, I'd just drive on the remaining light until a more convenient time.

Definitely your prerogative. Some people would make a different choice, especially when a "more convenient time" could involve many hours worth of driving. Which leads me back to my original point, again. Changing it out shouldn't require tools.

Re: Dupe

[Nirvelli]

Rock hits aren't covered under warranty.

Re: Dupe

[Nirvelli]

Changing a bulb should be a 1 minute job. Also I should have specified, I have been fixing cars since before I could drive and a typical owner would not even be able to reach the halfway point without accidentally tearing a piece off the bumper.

Re: Dupe

[virtual_mps]

But your point is basically "it shouldn't because I say so", which isn't really compelling. Who cares if it's many hours of driving? Most of the time if I lose a headlight I'm only really sure that it's out when I get to the garage and confirm that there's only one bright spot on the wall; there is sufficient redundancy in the system that driving on a single light is a non-event. In a case where it's really, really, dark and you really can't see well enough on one bulb, the odds are that the bright is still working fine. The odds that the second light will immediately go and that you'll be driving with no regular light is significantly less than the odds that the janky bulb stuff in the glove compartment or rattling in the trunk will have failed due to rough handling. This is simply a non-issue for any reasonable person, even if it really pisses you off.

Re: Dupe

[Pascoea]

So your argument about it being a "non-issue" is the same argument as mine? Because you think it's a non-issue? Compelling.

Find me a "reasonable person" on here that thinks it makes sense that you need tools, a half hour, and contortionist abilities to change a damn headlight.

If I'm driving in the dark in snow a storm I want both low-beams on. It's not a "convenience" thing, it's a safety concern. If you're cool driving around with impaired ability to see what's in front of you, giver 'er hell. I'm not cool with it. Period. And again, needing to lay in the snow to change a light bulb IS A BAD FUCKING DESIGN.

Re:Dupe

[ananamouse]

My daughter and I restored a 57 BelAir, her boyfriend drives a 67 Mustang, He almost has my 49 Willys running and together we will tackle the 84 Mustang. BUT: I would not try to fix the junk they sell in WalMart these days. The real problem is that crap from asia is not worth fixing.

Re: Dupe

[s0nicfreak]

In most areas the stores are close together, or there's Walmart where you just buy everything. I don't drive to the store JUST to buy oil; I drive to the store to buy groceries and yarn and pick up oil while I'm there. But if I pay someone else to change my oil, I have to drive to the oil change place JUST to get my oil changed and I can't get much else done while I'm there.

Re: Dupe

[greenzrx]

Your time might be cheap. Mine is not. I'll gladly pay a specialist to deal with it for me, while I do my own specialization.

I hope you don't think that the local lube shop is staffed by specialists. I spent my high school years working in gas stations, and I can tell you that they're like hot dog factories. you really don't want to know what goes on there.

Re: Dupe

[virtual_mps]

It's already been beaten to death up-thread. The benefits are things like more efficient space utilization and improved aerodynamics. The cost is that something that doesn't happen very often is less convenient. For the majority of car owners who were never going to change their bulbs anyway, there is basically no cost at all. I think that most "reasonable people" have no idea what is required to change their bulb, as galling as it may be for you. Calling it a safety concern is just about as hyperbolic as it gets. Seriously, how often do you blow a bulb? While driving? In a snow storm? If this is your number one issue, go ahead and get yourself a fifty year old chevy. It'll be a death trap in that snowstorm in a lot of ways, but it'll be really easy to change the headlight. (Not actually true: it required a screwdriver, and the screw was likely corroded and a PITA to remove in the dark on the side of a road. Even 50 years ago most people didn't really care about this issue.)

Re:Dupe

[s0nicfreak]

I know many people over 50 who PRIDE themselves in not being able to fix things, because fixing things is for poor people (in their minds).

Re:Dupe

[HornWumpus]

You need to get out more.

Any lift can be used to take an engine out the bottom. It's not uncommon.

Re:Dupe

[jandrese]

I don't think the engineers are oblivious to the problem, at least most of the time. You don't decide to be a car engineer because you know nothing about cars. Sometimes you're given a crap sandwich and have to make it edible. Marketing says they want the new V6 in the compact so they can market it as a sport version, but the engine bay was originally designed for a tiny economy engine. And you can't change the dimensions because the bodywork people aren't looking at this model this year, so you have to find some place to cram all of the parts and you end up with craziness like batteries stuffed into windshield wiper reservoir spaces or oil filters that you have to remove a wheel to replace or engines where almost every repair starts with "remove the engine". And then 3/4 of the way through the project the marketing guy comes by and says that they've been telling everyone it's turbocharged, so could you add a turbocharger and oil intercooler while you're at it?

Re: Dupe

[mheat]

Same here. My diesel takes a specialized VW spec synthetic oil, and I'm 90 minutes from the nearest dealer. I get it by mail, and it takes less than 1 hour to change oil and filter, which only happens every 10,000 miles.
Trip to the dealer: 3 hrs driving + fuel, 1 hr wait, $150.00 for an oil change.
Change a bulb: Headlight 10 minutes, tail light 1 minute. The headlight one is tricky the first time, you google it and away you go. However, I have been fixing my own stuff for 50 years, so the built up skill helps and the job is done properly.

Re:Dupe

[HornWumpus]

Just no.

A haynes manual will cover 2-3 models for 3-5 years. Each factory manual will be twice as thick as the haynes manual and cover one model and year.

If you believe everything is there, I've got a bridge to sell you.

Re:Dupe

[HornWumpus]

WTF are you babbling about.

it took 4 bolts, two wires and 20 minutes to pull a bug engine.

Re:Dupe

[jandrese]

Even back in the day there weren't too many people who would fix ICs. Mostly just the guys who built them originally (radio enthusiasts for example). Electrical faults are really hard to find because you can't see them. I also can't fault kids for not wanting to work on modern electronics. Everything is so damn tiny now that you need to be a master surgeon to replace stuff. I replaced a cracked screen on my wife's iPhone 4S and that was a nightmare of tiny (0.7mm-1.2mm) screws of all different sizes and fragile tiny parts that had to be disassembled and reassembled in exactly the right way. Plus there was some glue. I'm sure a couple of the corner screws went back in cross threaded, and although the repair was successful I doubt I could do it again on that phone without stripping at least one or two of the screws.

Re: Dupe

[jandrese]

Depends. I can do an oil change in my truck with 5 quarts of cheap Costco oil in a half hour or so. My wife's car on the other hand demands 6 quarts of unicorn oil and it's basically impossible to save money over having someone else do it.

Re:Dupe

[HornWumpus]

Wouldn't that be a job for a cow?

Re:Dupe

[s0nicfreak]

You didn't have to BIN it - you just couldn't use the new/updated software. They were still perfectly usable for doing something else.

My kids are on severely outdated desktops, thrown out by my husband's company when they were too outdated to do what the company wanted/needed to do; but they work just fine for browsing the web and playing old games.

Re:Dupe

[whitroth]

Not. I'm probably old enough to be your grandfather, or at least your father, and I never heard that from my folks.

The "just work" crap is true, along with the "sealed for our lawyers' protection" attitude in the US. As an example, a few years back I picked up a cheap multimeter. Several years later, it wouldn't turn on one day. I flipped it over to find the hatch for the battery... and found "No user serviceable parts inside" embossed on the yellow plastic case, along with "DANGER: electric shock!". I pulled out a small Phillips head, opened the stupid thing up, swapped out the 9V battery, and closed it up, thereby voiding any warranty, I assume, as well as nearly getting myself electrocuted (NOT).

*Maybe* half of slashdotters would do that... but would your friends? Or would they go buy another? For that matter, how many of you do any work on your car, even just change the oil? (And yes, I've done it on the street.) Change the filters? Or do you take it to the dealer for crap like that, and massively overpay?

              mark

Re: Dupe

[Cederic]

The BMW 1 series is an excellent car. My 120d had good fuel economy, was fun to drive, responded well on twisty country roads, accelerated easily to overtake, sat solidly at motorway speeds and didn't have a single mechanical failure in the four years I owned it.

It took a trained BMW mechanic quarter of an hour to change the front light bulb.

Tell me which of the design features above I should be prioritising on, because frankly it took four years for the fucking bulb to go.

Re: Dupe

[RandomAdam]

That sucks; I have a 2009 Subaru Outback.....replacing the headlamps requires opening the bonnet (hood), on the drivers side removing a plastic air guide (passenger side is open), opening the back of the assembly (no tools required) and swapping out the bulb.

Takes about 10 minutes passenger side and 15 minutes drivers side. I usually have a set sitting in my spares kit so that speeds things up by not having to make a special trip to get new ones.

Re:Dupe

[AK Marc]

So, if your tail light bulb is out, and you replace the incandescent bulb with an LED bulb (not an "assembly") you didn't "repair" the broken light?

Re:Dupe

[AK Marc]

So then apply the same statement 30 years ago. They didn't have that rep in the '60s with the 2002 and Isetta.

Re:Dupe

[redbaritone]

Us too! So, we just threw out our old grandfather, and rented a nice new one.

Re:Dupe

[samwichse]

You should see how they mounted the battery on the BMW i3. It's buried behind/under a bunch of stuff up next to the firewall.

Took one look at that and said "NOPE."

Re:Dupe

[Ulric]

Guys [1] usually fell into two categories, the electrical or mechanical.

Yep, those were the two categories I fell into.

Re: Dupe

[NicBenjamin]

None of the skills we're talking about is "entirely useless." The guy who knows what's wrong with his washer, and whether a relatively simple physical fix will work, has an actual advantage over the guy who just has to buy a new one. Sewing is actually probably more useful then the repair skills this thread is supposed to be about, because almost all the time sewing shit back together is actually practical. Spending hundreds on a proprietary electronic part, and then putting an hour or two into a) removing the faulty part, b) putting the good part in, and c) putting the rest of the appliance back together is just not practical for an appliance that can be replaced with a better model for $500.

But in the modern world you just don't need these skills. You can function fine without them. They're like balancing a checkbook, or cursive handwriting, plain old printing handwriting, knowing what a spavined mare looks like, etc. They impress people, and are somewhat useful, but nobody should freak out that they're going away,

Re: Dupe

[cfalcon]

Safety standards is not why you can't change a goddamned lightbulb, period.

Re: Dupe

[cfalcon]

ITT AC decides that it's ok if changing a lightbulb takes the same time that changing the brakes should.

Re: Dupe

[rhodium_mir]

Your time might be cheap. Mine is not. I'll gladly pay a specialist to deal with it for me, while I do my own specialization.

How much do you pay the specialist who pleasures your wife?

Re: Dupe

[n3r0.m4dski11z]

There are other reasons to change your oil yourself. For one, it gets you under the car to check for other problems twice a year. Notice a cracked CV boot or something that jiffy lube may or may not mention.

Secondly is choice of the oil and filter. Oil change places use the cheapest stuff they can get away with. There is a large difference in oil filters out there. I try and always use mobil one personally.

So sure it may be cheaper, but you most likley get crappier oil (is it even synthetic??) and the worlds cheapest filter.
Where I live, anyone who sells oil is required to take the empties. So disposal is not really an issue.

Re: Dupe

[Whorhay]

It's not really a "new" problem. Engineers have been making stupid decisions like this for decades. I remember a GM car, I think it was a Berreta, in the 80's or 90's that required partially unmounting the engine and tilting it forward to access the spark plugs otherwise they were flush against the firewall. And around that same time Toyota Corrola's required dropping the front axle or somesuch to replace the starter.

Re: Dupe

[ZahrGnosis]

I love my 2002 WRX but it is ridiculously more difficult to repair than my 1965 Ford. I just rebuilt the ford carburetor; there's hardly anything even similar that I can do that's nearly as simple to improve performance of the WRX computerized fuel injection system (beyond replacing spark plugs, hoses, and simple parts that are common to both generations of automobile -- headlights fall into that category I think; they're a bad benchmark for overall repair effort). I LOVE the car, don't get me wrong, but ease of repair is not a key selling point. In exchange, of course, we get much better gas mileage, performance, comfort, and safety to name a few -- I'm fine with the tradeoff, but it is real.

The counterpoint I have to the main article is that while people may not walk around with the ability to repair things, they do walk around with access to an insane amount of information to help them along. The number of youtube videos, bits of advice from message boards, and random web articles are really what keeps my Ford humming (and to a lesser extent the WRX), not to mention access to cheap parts shipped immediately. I think this generation will manage.

Re:Dupe

[mattventura]

But that's just a broken glass fallacy. It's nothing but waste.

Re:Dupe

[tlambert]

Hell, even exchanging a broken lightbulb can pose major problems.

That's because LEDs do not have an E26 screw base...

Re:Dupe

[n3r0.m4dski11z]

" Someone who says "why on Earth do you need to read your e-mail after hours?" is probably going to have no understanding of why you wouldn't want to buy something new instead of taking the time to repair it. "

Maybe I would need an MBA to understand this quote, but its true. I would not work when people aren't paying me (or work insane hours), and enjoy the art of repair.

Is it because narcissists are too shallow and self centred to notice that they are paying retail or being ripped off by the dealership?

Or is it work email? Work is never as important as free time. But then why would you answer your email after hours when you should be spending time with your kids? You claim that money is not important, however you seem to be basing things on having it (enough for a bmw and a house with a yard anyways).

For me, repairing means i spend less time working for money, or taking on side jobs, or hustling in some way. Why buy something again, when a smaller amount of money may solve the problem in parts? Why pay retail when the used market is negotiable and always cheaper. But then I wouldn't expect someone who leases a car to understand that!!! (see what i did there!)

Re:Dupe

[Aighearach]

If you can't differentiate between different manufacturers and identify brands like BWM that have different attributes than the pack, then even having a conversation that uses... any data points becomes impossible. It isn't just "them." There are different known "thems."

Re: Dupe

[Aighearach]

You'll just have to figure out for yourself what your priorities are. I didn't say what priorities people should have. I pointed out some obvious design tradeoffs, and where there are complaints about the tradeoffs I explained the design decisions that cause them. If your priorities match up with those tradeoffs, great!

For people who choose what they don't want and then whine about it, I'm not saying they should have different priorities. I'm saying they should understand the tradeoffs, and choose, and own their choice instead of whining and blaming. My vehicle doesn't have any of the access problems people in this thread are whining about... because I did some basic research with my own preferences in mind when selecting a vehicle.

Re: Dupe

[unencode200x]

The "Super" Walmart by my house has a Walmart-branded oil change and tire place attached to it. I think they do brakes too. You can shop while they do the work on your car (good to have an appointment).

Aside from a Walmart grocery and drug store, they also have a pizza place, sub shop, optometrist, health clinic, barber shop, and maybe something I'm forgetting. It's good and bad as they've driven other places out of our small town.

Re: Dupe

[Aighearach]

Only if you value both equally, and depending on the other design decisions. For example, you can accept a little less interior space at the same vehicle weight and length and have better access, without sacrificing aerodynamics. Just based on the tradeoff of space in the interior and in the mechanical areas.

When people hear "20% more interior space" they should also be hearing, "less mechanical room, more difficult and expensive maintenance."

There are lots of different tradeoffs. None of them are objectively better or worse, but they do exist. For every car with maximized interior space and little mechanical room, there is another one the same size and drag rating with more mechanical space and less interior room.

You can have an ugly car with decent aerodynamics and reasonable interior room. Cars these days are more "wooshy" shaped than is actually desirable for fuel economy. The best shape is water drop-esque. That gives a fat, rounded front end. The only reason for that to really screw up the position of lighting support and such things is if you're also trying to squish the engine compartment down into as small a space as you can. The stylish shape they're usually going for though is a water drop... falling backwards. Which is better than a box in the back... but not by much. It does at least reduce the effect of cross winds.

Re: Dupe

[zlives]

leisure time... is that when my eyes close during blinking?

Re: Dupe

[unencode200x]

The headlights in my current vehicle car are LED, self level when you start the vehicle, turn ahead of you in turns, and have several bulbs in there. I'm not messing with them.

Re:Dupe

[mjwx]

And the reason is ... because the stuff used to be BUILT by people. If a guy on the assembly line had to be able to get his hands onto a bolt to install it then someone replacing it would also be able to reach it.

Once we switched to robots for manufacturing it became a lot more difficult. A robot can reach where a person cannot.

Yes, An old British Leyland Rover used to be built by hand and when you lost a bit on the motorway it was OK, because someone else will have lost a similar bit up the road and you could just pick that up instead. A Honda was built by robots and lasts 20+ years on most of it's original components.

The problem isn't construction techniques, they've been a huge boon in terms of reliability, consistency and build quality. The problem is planned obsolescence. The problem is many manufacturers are deliberately designing cars not to be easily repairable so you'll buy a new one rather than fixing issues on the old one. Things like light fittings, sound deadening and other things that will annoy you are designed to fail shortly after the warranty.

You can still get cars that are relatively easy to work on, but these tend to be the same cars that dont break down often.

Re:Dupe

[mjwx]

However, in another case I watched two people try to get a PT Cruiser running on my street..

You managed to look at a PT Cruiser for more than 2 minutes without being sick?

Re:Dupe

[Trax3001BBS]

Electronics, however, are a different matter. You often have no more than 2-3 chips doing the heavy work and they're wave-soldered to the board, So lots of luck there. I did have to heave a perfectly good TV set with excellent picture though because apparently a 15-cent low-voltage capacitor managing the vertical height went sour and there were no available schematics.

I have the shop manuals for all my vehicles, my truck came with 5 books, one being the wire diagrams.

One of the speakers quit working so I made the mistake of removing the radio only to find the power to the radio is routed to many other systems including the dash lights, I drove around at night with no clue how fast I was going, gas, or able to view any other gauge.

I treated it old school, being the radio had a separate power supplied. Then took the time to look at the wire diagram, thinking damn it would of been better to of left the speaker alone.

At this time all the illuminated dashboard lights (clock, heater, etc) now go off when I turn on the head lights, just back ass-wards, It appears to be the dimmer switch which I haven't replaced or even looked at yet, yes power is supplied by the radio which is installed now; but the speaker works...

Re:Dupe

[Trax3001BBS]

You can flip the ignition switch ON, OFF three times and it will print the error code on the odometer.

That's sweet, mine the "service engine light" blinks out the codes stored in it's computer, between each code is a pause twice the time between each blink. I had to take a video of it to decipher. Lots of codes as the wire to ground erasing any stored codes doesn't.

One auto parts store here (there may be more) will hook a reader to your car giving you a print out of any codes for free. Of course there is the problem of getting a vehicle there, if it doesn't run.

Re:Dupe

[Aighearach]

With a user id so high, I already know you're not old enough to realistically conflate "30 years ago" with the 1960s. And yes, in the 1980s they did indeed already have that reputation.

Re: Dupe

[Iman Azol]

Late 70s, GM used Torx screws on headlight rings to "prevent theft," and wouldn't sell them to users. I did what everyone else did--hammered a Phillips screwdriver into the Torx screw, replaced the bulb, and put in Phillips screws.

Re:Dupe

[Iman Azol]

I "easily" fixed one of my broken shop tools when they stopped making spare parts. Had a friend turn a shaft, found bearings, dis-re-assembled. Took more time and money than replacing it entirely. A few days later, the trailing bearings failed. I recycled the steel and aluminum for $5, saved the motor to use elsewhere, and bought a Chinese import with a two year guarantee for half the price of the American one.

Re: Dupe

[Stuarticus]

Volvo V70 indicator bulb the same, not an easy procedure in sub zero winter temperatures I can assure you. However I am under 40 and British and managed it.

Re: Dupe

[Stuarticus]

If it's the same as my 2001 Volvo look at the front indicator replacement procedure.

Re:Dupe

[MooseMiester]

You make very good points. I believe there are additional aspects to this - There is a shrinking quantity of leisure time, combined with new perceptions of how one should spend it.

I started working in 1979. One got up, went to work, put in an eight, nine hour day and that was it. The only time you ever got called from work after hours was if the office was unexpectedly closed the next day. A very few, very important people had "pagers", and sure, the owner/senior management were taking client calls at all hours, but 97% of the workforce actually stopped working at 5:00. This is no longer the case for any position above store clerk, or mechanic. The expectation now is that work is the center of your life, and that you are always available. In those days workers were partly defined by their career and partly by their hobbies. Today, it's all about the career.

It used to be that building something in one's garage, restoring an old something, working on some artful thing - these were prized leisure activities. These activities were celebrated in the media, and on TV shows. While plenty of people still do these things, popular media says you should be always striving to better yourself - and that if you're not doing this, you should feel terribly guilty You should be working out, donating your free time to the soup kitchen, growing your own organic food, or something really huge like climbing half dome using one arm. That's whats celebrated by the media now. So being in one's garage building a boat or restoring a car, why that's selfish! So no wonder if you survey people, they are going to say "Oh yes, I spend my free time helping poor people and protesting the evils of capitalism" as opposed to what they probably really do...Play Video games, get stoned, watch TV....

To the article's point I believe it's hogwash, I know plenty of young folks, some of them aren't mechanical and some aren't. That's the way it always has been.

Re: Dupe

[Immerman]

I think I'll pass, but you've got me worried.

Replacing the heater core though is almost easy - something I've heard horror stories about on many other vehicles. (But then they went and used *plastic* for internal parts on an always-on heater core, so you are practically guaranteed to need to replace it periodically)

Re: Dupe

[TheRealLifeboy]

A great number of devices (toasters, irons, kettles, blenders, etc are designed to break and not be fixable. Being a boomer, I hate this. I don't want to create landfill by disposing my old appliances and I'd rather attempt to fix them or have them fixed. However, they use convoluted screws, flimsy clips that break on disassembly and parts (like an LG washing machine we had) that cannot be be opened (the gearbox / clutch unit) and although you can buy a replacement, it costs more than a new machine.

So I've found a way around this. Before I buy anything these days, I make sure that it can be repaired even when out of warranty and that there's a local repair-shop or service agent close by. Surprise! The devices that fall into this category don't cost more, all one has to do is be more selective. I don't even look at AIM, Safeway, Premier and similar brands anymore. Even many Philips devices also fall into the "don't buy - cannot be repaired" category.

It's a choice to say no to the bastard companies that sell junk designed to break soon after the guarantee expires. If we all did that, it would be a better world. Wishful thinking... sigh.

Re:Dupe

[schlachter]

My Nintendo 3DS XL recently broke when it dropped and the screen cracked. I was able to get a new screen on line for $30, thinking I'd spend an hour or two and replace the screen but it has become a huge hassle which has taken 4+ hrs and $10+ in new tools and it's still incomplete. I'd say I have a 50% chance of fixing it at all.

Lesson learned is I should have sold it on ebay as is for $50 and bought a new one for $150. It didn't pay to try to fix.

Re:Dupe

[mr.mctibbs]

Explain to me how the Christ you would "fix by repairing" a RAM chip.

Re:Dupe

[Whorhay]

I very sadly sold my car about seven years ago that had a mechanical distributor. And it was only about six years before that when I lost my car with points. With any luck though I'll manage to get my Fathers car that has a Hydromatic Transmission and an in line 8 cyclinder engine.

Re:Dupe

[Bing Tsher E]

Replacing bad RAM on your motherboard absolutely IS fixing your computer.

True, but figuring out the pattern to move the individual chips around to determine which bit in which bank of the RAM is bad, and thus which chip to replace... it's a lost art. But I grew up buying 1x64K and those more expensive 1x256K DRAM chips used at surplus stores, where they were sometimes only $8 each instead of expensive.

Re:Dupe

[jp10558]

Makes me glad I have a Subaru. Every one I've owned (3) or my family has owned (5 more) has the battery on a shelf right side, near the front of the hood. It's not blocked by anything. Now, the windshield washer reservoir is hidden down under everything with a fill neck, so that's probably how they get the battery easily accessible.

Then again, I've replaced batteries, but never the washer fluid reservoir.

Re:Dupe

[jp10558]

Well, that and tools. So, I've done some joint repair on household stuff (changed out carpeting for laminate, replaced faucet, replaced shower stall) with my sister. The basics isn't hard, and youtube and the rest of the net will teach you a lot.

But for Laminate, you have to buy a table saw to cut to size, plus a laminate blade. For the shower, you need caulk gun, and drill. Etc. These add up, and they're not really items you want to buy for one use, and then store somewhere forever.

Same for cars, there's a lot of special tools often needed.

Now, if you're regularly going to help people with putting in laminate, or repairing cars, buying the tools might make sense. If you just need it fixed once, paying someone else might still be cheaper.

Re:Dupe

[rubycodez]

You're confused, I make big money fixing software. Most people can't do that either.

Re:Dupe

[AK Marc]

Most people from our parents/grandparents generations couldn't fix cars either. But the old guys left who tell stories remember it like they all did.

What people fix changes. Whether they can doesn't. "Get off my lawn" documented nearly every generation since 2000+ years ago.

Re:Dupe

[Ol Olsoc]

That was a time when you could actually easily fix something. Take cars, for example. Fixing a modern car aside from trivial cases is not easy. Hell, even exchanging a broken lightbulb can pose major problems.

I've heard this for years, and it is like a younger person's version of "get off my lawn!"

All devices, all machinery, all electronics are combinations of simpler machines. I can tear down an engine, adjust and repair or rebuild it. I have done many in depth rebuilds when I was poorer and had to, and now just for fun I can look at the electronics and see what they are doing, and often repair them. I have built and modified and repaired Surface Mount device electronics - the latest being a software defined HF transceiver. (Though I did not design this particular one) A lot of people think SMT work is beyond normal people's work too.

None of this stuff is rocket surgery. I can do it, and if you look around Slashdot there are a lot of people who think I am pretty fucking stupid. So I suspect most here can likely do all that a lot better than I can.

Re: Dupe

[Ol Olsoc]

On my 2015 Subaru STI, I take off three clips and reach in to swap the bulb

On my somewhat older Subaru, the instructions for changing the bulbs in the tail lights are "take it to a dealer". It's not too difficult to change the bulbs, but it takes tools that most people probably don't have (ie. more than a Phillips screwdriver).

Don't y'all check on the replaceability of parts before you buy these things? Once upon a time (even back to the late 60's, early 70's, Chevy vehicles all had "special tools" you had to buy to replace a lot of parts. So I avoided them. There were a few early 70's Mustangs with the big V-8's where you had to remove the inner fender to replace the spark plug closest to the firewall (although many of us drilled and plugged a hole in the firewall to access them.

You should do this stuff before you buy the vehicle.

Just sayin'. My Jeep Patriot (2013) you can replace light type parts pretty easily. Rear light assembly - lift the hatch, place a screwdriver in the plugs holding the light assembly onto the body, wedge them up pull the assembly away, replace the offending light or rights, and reverse to reinstall. Took me a less than a minute to change the brake light on the left side.

Wife's Jeep Compass - replaced a headlight. Removed an intake cover over the battery (turned a plastic knob 90 degrees and lifted - 5 seconds) twisted out the bulb replaced it and reversed the order. Probably took 2 minutes.

This is the kind of stuff that can save you thousands of dollars every year with minimal effort on your part.Or you can make sure your dealer get's their vacation money a little easier.

Re:Dupe

[mgcarley]

I could only wish I could get diagnostic codes to easily: I bought an old Merc (1985 W126 chassis - a few months younger than myself) for the purpose of fixing it up, in part because I've never worked on a car before. I know a bit about electronics and stuff but being as old as it is, much of the actual engine-related stuff is based on vacuum hoses instead of electronics, so... it's unfamiliar territory,

Changing the headlights and fuses is easy, as were some of the relays. The voltage regulator was fairly easy as was the battery (one crossbar and the windshield wiper fluid reservoir), spark plugs, wires and the distributor cap. Changing the fuel-filter was definitely the hardest thing so far (and the fuel-pump won't be easy either, but that's still on my to-do list).

Needless to say, it's been a hell of a learning experience and fortunately, I'm not very large and there's enough room under the car that I don't even *have* to jack it up to get under there. By the end, though, I'll have managed to fix something and make it my own.

Re: Dupe

[unitron]

You mean replacing the windings?

Yes, pretty much, although to be honest it's been a number of years since I rewound a motor or undercut a commutator, and the car window motor referred to may not even have a commutator and brushes, but be some sort of PWM'ed stationary windings direct drive type, and the repair wouldn't be on a burnt out winding but on a fried switching transistor. I haven't disassembled any cars in a long time, either.

Re:Dupe

[unitron]

Explain to me how the Christ you would "fix by repairing" a RAM chip.

When burne referred to swapping sub-assemblies as not being 'repairing', and PRMan countered with the contention that "Replacing bad RAM on your motherboard absolutely IS fixing your computer.", I assumed we were talking swapping in a new SIMM or DIMM.

Trying to do electron-microscopy level microsurgery inside an individual integrated circuit package may well be nigh on impossible, but with the right tools, equipment, and materials, and some SMD soldering experience, one could replace an IC on a RAM stick, which would be repairing fixing, whereas just snapping a new RAM module into the socket would be replacing fixing.

Of course this pre-supposes that one could lay hands upon the correct replacement IC to repair the RAM module (after figuring out which of the several on there needs replacing), and it's not impossible that a little cannibalization might be required, but you might be able to turn two bad sticks into one good one.

Re: Dupe

[RockDoctor]

That's designed-in dealership work, not the inherent difficulty of the job.

Are Fords ("Fix Or Repair Daily") routinely that bad. Iremember being told that the design of the Maestro (or was it Montego - I give not two shits about cars) included a sub-frame holding transmission and engine together so that changing a clutch absolutely required a multiple-metre long optical alignment jig to get things back together. And that jig was only rented to main dealers, never sold. Designed-in bitchery to repair.

Re: Dupe

[cvtan]

Instructions for replacing the headlight bulbs in my Prius start with "remove the front bumper" Sounds Familiar.

Re: Dupe

[Nirvelli]

I drove a '93 Taurus for 7 years and replaced just about everything in it. It was all pretty easy, except the water pump was kind of a hassle because I had the biggest engine option and there wasn't a lot of spare room on the side of the engine. The hard to fix thing is a problem with new cars, because they're designed by computers which only consider efficiency, not people who consider repairability.

Re: Dupe

[Nirvelli]

I had a job fixing power tools for a construction company and saw the same thing. I always liked when a Bosch came in because they built those things with repairability in mind. Most of the higher-end tools from any company were that way, but Bosch did it with everything.

Re: Dupe

[RockDoctor]

Oh, the thing I mentioned last about the Monsetego (or whatever it was - is Taurus a Ford model?) was back in the days of human design. My source was a Ford engineer who was bitching to me while I was hitch-hiking and he'd just been ordered to design this optical jig monstrosity, by hand, explicitly to bugger up reparability for the buyers. About 1982 or 1983. His story didn't mean damn-all to me at the time because it was about 6 years before I started trying to learn to drive. But I filed the story as something to keep the next driver entertained with. IIRC the engineer was driving from Ford's Dagenham plant back to Halewood after being dealt this shitty hand, and he was well fuming about it.

Re:Dupe

[Em Adespoton]

I was going to make an opposing point...

the under 40s expect everything to 'just work' and have no idea what to do when things go wrong. Unlike previous generations who would ‘make do and mend’ now young people will just chuck out their faulty appliances and buy new ones.

Why does he target the under 40s? These days, most people I know above AND under 40 fit this profile. It's because the stuff we use generally "just works" and when things DO go wrong, the products are no longer designed to be easy to figure out how to fix, let alone fix it. Young people do a cost/benefit analysis and discover that their time is worth more than buying a replacement whatever.

What gets me is things like this: recently the diverter in my shower failed -- I took the device apart, discovered that there was a crack in the plastic arm, and a rubber gasket had worn out. I figured that I could epoxy the arm, and just needed to replace the gasket to make everything happy again. So, I went looking for the gasket. Turned out that the gasket by itself cost more than buying a new diverter unit.

Similarly, recently the cassette flywheel on my bike went. I figured there was an internal component that needed to be replaced, and there was -- but the tools and components to do this replacement were an order of magnitude more expensive than just replacing the cassette. As I ran out of time figuring this out, I figured I'd get a bike shop to drop in a new cassette for me -- only to discover that they didn't have that specific one in stock, and the cost of ordering and installing it would be more than buying an entirely new wheel they had hanging on the wall. So I bought the new wheel and kept the old one for parts.

Then there's my toaster oven, my breadmaker....

Actually, the one thing I've been able to fix recently without going over the cost of a replacement was the toggle switch on my vacuum cleaner. A pair of needle nosed pliers and a drop of solder did the trick. I'm pretty sure I would have had to purchase the entire toggle assembly, even though the only problem was a worn dimple and bent piece of copper.

Long story short, while I am quite capable of repairing these sorts of things, we have reached a stage where the cost to do so exceeds the cost of replacement. Produced parts are custom and produced to match the volume required for industrial assembly. Maybe instead of muttering "Young people these days" the professor should have asked the question "Why are they replacing instead of repairing?" The "can't figure it out" seems more like an assumption than a scientifically tested conclusion.

Re:Dupe

[Em Adespoton]

I think you just proved his point: the issue isn't that it can't be done -- the issue is that people can't be bothered because there are better alternatives.

In my grandparent's generation, you had the farmer's almanac and the local experts -- but that's about it for information sources, other than some manuals someone had collected. These days, you could be just about anywhere and still be able to look up what that error code on your car means and see video step-by-step instructions on how to carry out the repair.

So it used to be a valuable asset to be one of those people who could fix things, as the alternative was having a broken thing. Nowadays, the alternative is getting it replaced at a reasonable cost. And people don't bother memorizing how to fix things, because that information is widely available for looking up, should one want to waste one's time doing so.

Re:Dupe

[Miamicanes]

In what magical part of the world do car batteries genuinely last for 10 years? In Florida, you're lucky if your battery survives for 3 whole years.

Its a cost decision

[Anonymous Coward]

I have detailed technical knowledge. However my time is not worth fixing every small gadget that breaks. If I break a blender, its simply not worth me sourcing parts, waiting, and then spending an hour repairing it.

Re:Its a cost decision

[west]

Absolutely. With manufacturing costs crazy low, fixing things is a huge waste of time and effort *unless* you really enjoy having brought something back to life, in which case, good for you! From a straight economic decision, why should people want to spend time learning to be good at fixing things instead of using that time to learn other productive skills?

Someone needs to be introduced to the concept of "opportunity cost".

Re:Its a cost decision

[0123456]

A 3D printer could certainly have saved me $80 buying a new soap dispenser for our dishwasher when the plastic latch broke so it would no longer stay closed. There are a number of things I've thrown away because some small part like that broke and it wasn't cost-effective to fix.

Re: Its a cost decision

[WarJolt]

It's not about cost. It's about design. They used to build things to last. They'll build products with improper snubbing. They know that the back emf will eventually burn out the IC and they depend on it. It lowers cost and means you buy a new electric carving knife every couple of years.

Re:Its a cost decision

[Anonymous Coward]

Came to say this.

Lets say my 2500 dollar TV broke. At this point it is about 6 years old. I can buy the *exact* same tv and better for about 600 bucks. It would cost me at least 150 in labor to take it to get fixed. Then parts. Or do it my self. But it better take less than 6 hours to fix it or I am making less money than I do per hour.

At this point the only things I fix are things I can no longer get retail.

There was a reason people used to fix things. A TV cost 2500 bucks in 2015 dollars in 1950. It was worth fixing. It was usually fairly simple to tell what to fix (look for the burn marks or a bit of time with a probe) and a trip to the local electronic shack to get the one small part you need. Now it is a MB that you have to source from another country. It comes down to how much you value your time. It is purely a cost decision.

Re:Its a cost decision

[frisket]

Bollocks.

The goblet connector on my blender sheared. I could have gone out and bought a replacement blender for €150. Instead I ordered a part online for €9.50 which arrived two days later and took ten minutes to fit. If the motor had failed, I would probably have bought a new blender (of a different make).

The skill is in knowing when it is worth fixing and when it is better to replace. That's the skill which is being lost. Actually doing the fix is usually relatively straightforward.

Re: Its a cost decision

[Anonymous Coward]

Case design in particular. Products used to be designed so you could take the covers off with screws or something and then replace them, for servicing. Now you have to break something more just to open it up to work on it.

Re:Its a cost decision

[0123456]

Hey, it's the anti-Space Nutter Nutter. How's it going?

And yes, I would totally have bought a $1000 printer to print one $80 part and then throw it away. That's why I didn't.

For another example, one of the common causes for scrapping one of the cars I used to own was the coolant tank failing, because it was two pieces of plastic glued or melted together and the joint would eventually fail (after about fifteen years, in mine). Then you had to find a replacement coolant tank from a scrapyard which hadn't failed, or bodge in one from another model. I'm not sure whether a current 3D printer can produce something that would survive temperatures from -10 to 110C and pressures of a couple of atmospheres on a routine basis, but it's another area where it could save someone having to scrap a device worth more than $1000.

Re:Its a cost decision

[jedidiah]

Some brands are simply more maintainable than others.

Spare parts may be readily available. This isn't true universally. Most brands are cheap crap that are intended to be disposable. Ensuring that the product has a long useful life isn't even a consideration.

If longevity is something you care about then that's an informed choice you have to make at the time of purchase.

Re:Its a cost decision

[Billly Gates]

Not to mention obsolescence. Do you really want to fix the connection from that lcd screen to the dsp in that 512 Meg XP pentiumM laptop? My fathers bulky 720p mirror based TV is not CRT yet isn't flat screen either circa 2003 went out. It would cost $400 to fix. Worth it over a newer 1080p? No

Re: Its a cost decision

[Billly Gates]

Why don't you ask Ford or GM how great that strategy was in the 1970s and earlier 1980s

Re:Its a cost decision

[Opportunist]

So instead of waiting for a week for delivery, you wait for a week to finish printing...

Re:Its a cost decision

[DarkSkiez]

For things where the material used in your home 3d printer isn't suitable, you can 3d print a cast which can help some use cases.

Re:Its a cost decision

[Fwipp]

You could have also bought a $5 blender from the local thrift store.

Re: Its a cost decision

[Lunix Nutcase]

They used to build things to last.

Nope. Companies have always built things to last just as long as they found economically viable.

Re:Its a cost decision

[trout007]

KitchenAid?

Re:Its a cost decision

[Grismar]

You overestimate the value of your time. Or rather, all of use underestimate the value of a blender and the resources (material and otherwise) that go into it. But I guess we'll need another generation that will see the future cost to tell us what assholes we were for wasting perfectly good appliances.

Re: Its a cost decision

[O('_')O_Bush]

There are a lot of plastic pieces that companies won't or can't sell separately from the appliance, or if they do it costs 1/3 to 1/2 the appliance cost. That would be where 3D printers would come in handy, assuming you had the design to print from.

Re:Its a cost decision

[k6mfw]

If I break a blender, its simply not worth me sourcing parts, waiting, and then spending an hour repairing it.

Do you have to replace that blender frequently? There was a time when a blender would has forever, I still have my mom's Oster. A book called "High Cost of Cheap Fashion" besides clothes mentioned someone had a reading light for years but it finally burned out. So went a bought another (hey they're cheap) but the light didn't last very long. Then realizing these cheap lights actually cost more as having to buy a few instead of one over a certain time.

Re: Its a cost decision

[houghi]

Many tears ago, I bought a DVD player for 400 EUR. It broke within a year. I replaced it with a DVD player for 40 EUR. Even if it would have lasted just for one year, I could have bought 10 and they would still not losing money.

I see the same with clothes. My mother always said "Buy quality, it will last longer." and she is right. But paying 3 times for something that only lasts twice as long is not worth it.

So buying a new electric carving knife often will be cheaper then buying one that lasts forever and a month. And it is not the snubbing, it is the fact that they make money. If people realy did not want it, they would not buy it. They are just delivering what the market is asking for and that is cheaper, not higher quality.

About knives. I know that they make patato knives with a brown handle. The reason is that you will not see them and trow them away with the potato peels.

Re:Its a cost decision

[fustakrakich]

Then you had to find a replacement coolant tank from a scrapyard which hadn't failed, or bodge in one from another model.

Oh c'mon now, it doesn't sound like anything a bit of duct tape can't fix.

Re:Its a cost decision

[JMJimmy]

A 3D printer could certainly have saved me $80 buying a new soap dispenser for our dishwasher when the plastic latch broke so it would no longer stay closed. There are a number of things I've thrown away because some small part like that broke and it wasn't cost-effective to fix.

Steps to fix:
*Go to dollar store
*Buy superglue
*Glue plastic latch back together
*Profit

Re:Its a cost decision

[layabout]

not to mention that the newer device uses less energy and has better performance.

Re:Its a cost decision

[JMJimmy]

Bollocks.

The goblet connector on my blender sheared. I could have gone out and bought a replacement blender for €150. Instead I ordered a part online for €9.50 which arrived two days later and took ten minutes to fit. If the motor had failed, I would probably have bought a new blender (of a different make).

The skill is in knowing when it is worth fixing and when it is better to replace. That's the skill which is being lost. Actually doing the fix is usually relatively straightforward.

Or next time you were at [insert box store] and got a blender for CDN$24.99. Yes, it's $15 more, but then again when minimum wage is $11 it'd have to be a very fast sourcing/fix to be worth the time. That's the kicker - not only is there a $/h consideration for repairs, there's also a mental energy component. If I have a $500 mixer, it's worth my time to try to fix, but more often than not, we're talking sub-$50 items which just aren't worth the time or energy to bother with.

Re:Its a cost decision

[joelsherrill]

KitchenAid? I don't have enough time to give you my long-winded rant over the craptastic products that I have had the pleasure of repairing with none of my major kitchen appliances being over six years old. Let's start with a microwave door that developed cracks within six months of being new, oven controls that "stuck" and had to be replaced, dishwasher rollers that are apparently not made with heat rated plastic, an oven door handle screw that fell out inside the door, cracks in the back of refrigerator wall, broken refrigerator drawers and trays, and that's not counting that I can see the non-metal bottom of the stainless steel dishwasher starting to deteroiate. I currently have an ice maker in a box waiting for me to replace the broken one in the refrigerator and a new cover for the microwave since the handle finally pulled completely through. I found out that the cover needed six tabs which were broken on the old one (from the factory). So I looked up the parts and ordered them. Plastic tabs about 1/2" long and 3/8" wide with a screw hole. Whirlpool and every third party parts place wants about $25 a piece for the six plastic tabs ($150!!) that hold the cover in place if I ordered white or stainless. Luckily, you can't see them so I was happy with the $3.75 a piece black ones.

From the web, I can tell that the products under there other various names (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whirlpool_Corporation#Major_brands) are built with the same quality.

I have to give props to my wife who has on more than one occasion grabbed the parts when they arrived and fixed things herself. There are some amazing videos on YouTube showing how to repair appliances and the web makes it easy to order parts. Just a damned shame that you have to do it because the item you are repairing it shite the day it leaves the factory. Google "whirlpool lawsuit defective design" and add a word like refrigerator or icemaker.

Sometimes it isn't that one can't repair or doesn't want to. It is that the appliance in question is shite from the factory and parts are priced in such a way that repairs become increasingly expensive and you hate the damned appliance. If Whirlpool were to give me replacements, I would take them but I am adding them to the list of companies I don't want anything from. So Whirlpool ... if anyone there cares... you have a chance to redeem yourself. But my previous attempts to get satisfaction failed just like the appliances.

Re:Its a cost decision

[Shakrai]

The goblet connector on my blender sheared. I could have gone out and bought a replacement blender for €150. Instead I ordered a part online for €9.50 which arrived two days later and took ten minutes to fit. If the motor had failed, I would probably have bought a new blender (of a different make).

You have a €150 blender? I dare say that's not the norm in the vast majority of households. Mine cost $19.95.....

Re: Its a cost decision

[CanadianMacFan]

I needed to replace one of the wheels from the upper tray in my Maytag dishwasher. Found out that they didn't sell just the wheel and would have to replace the whole tray at a cost of over $300. I made something up to work as a replacement instead.

Re: Its a cost decision

[gnasher719]

Case design in particular. Products used to be designed so you could take the covers off with screws or something and then replace them, for servicing. Now you have to break something more just to open it up to work on it.

When I upgraded hard drives on lap tops, I always used to buy external hard drives. Because they are cheaper, and you can copy the internal drive to the external one before you start work, and then just swap the drives. The last time I did this, to my surprise the case of the external drive had no screws!

No problem, because taking the drive in both hands and applying _just_ the right amount of force made the two parts of the case fall apart. I can not in my life imagine any of my grand children being able to do that. I cannot even imagine them taking the case away destructively without destroying the drive inside.

But the most frightening tool use by a complete tool that I've every seen was on a cookery program in the UK, where a woman who intended to run a restaurant kitchen tried to open a cocoanut by stabbing it with a twelve inch knife. Apparently the film crew stopped her because it was too dangerous.

Re:Its a cost decision

[GNious]

This - so much this.

I have a mate, who seems to enjoy fixing things. As a result, the value in fixing stuff, for him, includes that enjoyment, and it is suddenly worth it.
For me, on the other hand, I find that I have little interest in the act of trying to take stuff apart, fixing it and reassembling it, and my time is "better" spent elsewhere.

This naturally means I'm more likely to throw things out than he is, and I'm part of this "lost generation".

Note: I've trained for both electricals and electronics in school, I have the base knowledge required for fixing many types of things (if not the hands for it).

Re:Its a cost decision

[Harlequin80]

JB Weld is your friend for these types of jobs.

I restore old motorcycles which means parts are generally not available at all. So you have to fix what you have. JB weld is the saviour of sooooo many plastic tanks that have cracked.

Alternatively I often build replacements for plastics out of fibreglass. Mud guards and bodywork panels in particular.

As for the original premise of this article I think there is a grain of truth in it. I know a lot of people around my age (mid 30s) that don't know how to change the oil & filter on their car. Or are too scared to attempt it. But they also don't have the easily disposable income to pay someone else to do it so their car doesn't get serviced at all.

That said my father comes from the camp of everything is fixable and will spend way more time then something is worth to get it going again. I find that a hard habit to break.

Re:Its a cost decision

[sjames]

Part of the problem is parts availability. I recently replaced a dishwasher due to lack of parts. By the time I add in that I had to pull the old one, install the new one, time spent going to pick out a new one, time waiting for it to be delivered, etc, I would have come out well ahead if I could have just picked the part out in an exploded diagram and had it shipped.

Re:Its a cost decision

[gweihir]

You lack professional pride...

Re: Its a cost decision

[sjames]

Absolutely incorrect. I have an old sewing machine that was my great grandmother's. It still works perfectly. It is old enough that the sticker inside gives a 5 digit phone number for the service center.

It's construction is heavy to say the least. 'value engineering' (read planned obsolescence) hadn't been invented yet. For quite a while after it was invented it was considered a sign of a shoddy company that is not to be trusted. But the frog in much closer to boiling now.

Re: Its a cost decision

[sjames]

That's the thing, that $400 DVD player wasn't quality, it was just overpriced.

That's part of the problem. Price and brand have little to do with quality anymore. You have to buy the cheapest because there's little to no assurance that the one costing 2 to 10 times as much isn't the same crappy product in a more expensive looking housing.

Re:Its a cost decision

[khallow]

Thank you. That actually is interesting.

Re:Its a cost decision

[whoever57]

I have detailed technical knowledge. However my time is not worth fixing every small gadget that breaks. If I break a blender, its simply not worth me sourcing parts, waiting, and then spending an hour repairing it.

This.

Decades ago, I worked for a large automotive parts supplier. A colleague wanted to get the bearings replaced in his alternator, so he strolled over to the alternator factory, where a friend of his worked and asked the friend to press in new bearings. When he picked up his "repaired" alternator, the casing had changed to that of a brand new model!

Then there is the time factor. A few months ago, when the alternator on my daughter's classic car failed, I just ordered a complete new unit. I could have ordered a diode pack, but I needed to get the car back on the road and I did not want to swap out the diode pack only to have to wait another week for another part if the diode pack was not the problem. I also did not want to take the alternator in and out more than necessary, because swapping it out is hard on my back. Not many years ago, I could have driven 10 miles up the road, bought a new diode pack and swapped it out, then replaced the alternator if the diode pack was not the problem, but now I have to rely on having parts shipped.

Re: Its a cost decision

[whoever57]

When I upgraded hard drives on lap tops, I always used to buy external hard drives. Because they are cheaper, and you can copy the internal drive to the external one before you start work, and then just swap the drives. The last time I did this, to my surprise the case of the external drive had no screws!

I never buy external hard drives. I buy internal drives and enclosures. Frequently it is cheaper and, in my experience, those external drives have not had screws to open them for years.

Re: Its a cost decision

[AthanasiusKircher]

It's not about cost. It's about design. They used to build things to last. ... [snip] ...It lowers cost and means you buy a new electric carving knife every couple of years.

Speaking about design, why the heck are you using an electric carving knife in the first place? Just buy a decent actual (non-electric) slicing knife, and keep it sharp. You can probably use it for a half-century and then will it to the grandkids. Learning how to keep quality knives sharp is an easy skill and will save you hours in the kitchen, not to mention probable injuries. (Dull knives make any cutting or chopping take much longer and require more effort, and they are much more prone to slipping when you try to force them, thus creating accidents.)

I can't stand cooking at most other people's houses, because they often have no knives that are actually sharp. Food prep is annoying with bad tools, and I understand why most people just give up and rarely cook with tools like that.

Anyhow, the reason for this short rant about old-fashioned knife maintenance is because part of our "design" problem these days is that we think we need some "gadget" to do everything. Yes, many gadgets are helpful. But a lot of times they replace a perfectly straightforward non-complex tool that would last for years with a complicated electronic device or at least something with a very special design, a bunch of breakable plastic parts, and no easy way to repair when it fails.

If you asked me to a choose a useless gadget that I'd NEVER bother replacing because I could just use a simple tool that will last for generations, the electric carving knife would be near the top of my list.

Re:Its a cost decision

[MightyYar]

Well, you are buying a €150 blender, which I don't doubt is probably made of some replaceable parts, and in any case might be worth spending money on the repair. Most people are getting something for €20. At that price point, even your €10 repair is arguably foolish.

Re: Its a cost decision

[ToasterMonkey]

Absolutely incorrect. I have an old sewing machine that was my great grandmother's. It still works perfectly. It is old enough that the sticker inside gives a 5 digit phone number for the service center.

It's construction is heavy to say the least. 'value engineering' (read planned obsolescence) hadn't been invented yet. For quite a while after it was invented it was considered a sign of a shoddy company that is not to be trusted. But the frog in much closer to boiling now.

Any idea what the inflation adjusted cost of that thing would be today? That would be very telling, and what do you get for that money today I guess.

Re: Its a cost decision

[EETech1]

Have you priced a Kirby lately?

Re:Its a cost decision

[EETech1]

1. Hook Up oscilloscope
2. Start Engine
3. Look at oscilloscope
4. Replace Or Rebuild correct part

If you have to make #1 from an Arduino and a couple of resistors, bonus points for you.

If you release the resulting #1 as Autoduino or Alternatoduino on github it's a double bonus.

Triple bonus for a YouTube vid.

Re:Its a cost decision

[Zxern]

You would use JB Weld inside a dishwasher? Really?

Re: Its a cost decision

[brantondaveperson]

True, but those clip-together cases are cheaper to manufacture and assemble - which is something that translates into cheaper products. SMD components are also cheaper, and save on board size - cheaper again.

It's not like this is a conspiracy - it's just that people prefer cheap stuff.

Re:Its a cost decision

[EETech1]

There's this glue called goop (not that goop from the hardware store) that they have at hobby stores that will hold aluminum tubing to nitro-methanol and oil soaked fiberglass. We used to use it for model boats and it would hold anything, to anything. It took a long time to set but it held on forever after that.

Re:Its a cost decision

[Guy From V]

JB weld is great stuff, I also like West System marine grade epoxy when I want a nonmetallic bonding material. Fiberglass powder and meshes where needed for structural reinforcement works insanely good.

Re: Its a cost decision

[sjames]

I'm familiar with survivor bias. I also know heavy construction that won't wear out when I see it. I can see the heavy motor windings that don't heat up much when it runs. I can see that the various rods and bearings show no signs of wear.

I imagine many are long gone simply because it has no bells and whistles that were invented later. It can be a bit of a challenge to set up since you have to route the thread correctly.

Re:Its a cost decision

[Harlequin80]

I was replying to his car example and the usage case of JB Weld for a coolant bottle.

As for using it in a dish washer - any particular reason why you wouldn't? Other than that it is probably a bit of expensive overkill.

Re: Its a cost decision

[sjames]

I really have no idea what it cost at the time.

Re:Its a cost decision

[trout007]

You misunderstood. I had that rubber coupling break on my kitchen aid blender a bunch of times.

Re: Its a cost decision

[ceoyoyo]

Some model cement might have done it too.

Re: Its a cost decision

[Bonobo_Unknown]

It's not about cost. It's about design. They used to build things to last.

Did they really? Then why isn't our world still full of old working things that require no maintenance? I mean I can agree with the impression that things used to be built to last, but I think it might have more to do with the fact that old things were put together by hand, and were very big and electronic components were big and simple. It used to be easy to find a faulty component and fix it, but now that everything's been shrunk and stuck on a chip it's no longer simply a matter of replacing a universally available component, you have to find and buy the correct chip, which can cost more than just going down to the shop and getting a new entire product. Old things are still around and have the fame of being reliable because they are simple to fix.

Re: Its a cost decision

[ceoyoyo]

Me too. If I'm going to be cooking somewhere I usually bring a knife with me. Sometimes it gets a weird look form people but then I make them chop something.

Re:Its a cost decision

[JMJimmy]

Superglue doesn't fix everything, and in some cases gluing things back together doesn't work(crumbling parts, missing pieces, not enough bond strength to accomplish the function). I've got got eleven kinds of superglue, and like thirty of epoxy, and you know what, I still can't glue everything together and make it work.

That's true, however, your standard hard plastic is ideal for run of the mill superglue. The harder plastics used in latch mechanisms like that will almost always leave a clean striated surface when they break. That is easily bondable (unless it was sheared off) and unless the glue you're using melts/softens at low temperatures it's an ideal fix. If it were a softer plastic, like that found in plastic gears, I wouldn't have recommended it.

Re:Its a cost decision

[stoborrobots]

On the one hand, I agree - I know lots of people our age who don't know how to change their oil or oil filter.

On the other hand, I know many people of all ages (from 16 through 70) who don't know how to do that.

At a guess, I'd average it at about 10% in any age group who could. I'm one of the few my age; my dad is one of the few his age. Only two of my uncles or aunts could; only a couple of my cousins. A few of my friends can, but that's only because I hung out with a bunch of motorheads when I was younger...

Re:Its a cost decision

[Tablizer]

Maybe in UK you can't.

Re:Its a cost decision

[ruir]

It is not just time and energy. Most of the cheaper appliances, and sadly the expensive ones too, are not anymore built to last. So you might be very well trying to fix something that won't work anymore.

Re: Its a cost decision

[ruir]

You were lucky. I had an external drive, and wanted to put it on an enclosure, I think it was seagate, and the damn thing was glued. On the process I broke up the controller. Good think some friend was needing a disk, and I sold it to him. Some things are not built to be open.

Re:Its a cost decision

[FatLittleMonkey]

I haven't tried it, but PLA apparently works well as the "wax" in lost-wax casting.

Re: Its a cost decision

[gnasher719]

I never buy external hard drives. I buy internal drives and enclosures. Frequently it is cheaper and, in my experience, those external drives have not had screws to open them for years.

When you buy an enclosure, you have no idea what quality it is and whether it even works. If you buy an external drive, you have an enclosure that works. And in my experience, the prices for external drives used to be identical to internal drives.

Re:Its a cost decision

[zwarte piet]

But then you find they put one way screws in or even rivets and if you manage to open it dispite those measures the frame was torn because the metal was too thin and that tiny plastic sprocket was ruduced to powder as designed and can't be sourced anywhere.

Re: Its a cost decision

[zwarte piet]

My cdplayer from 1989 shows no signs of stopping.(But yeah, those things where expensive then)

Re: Its a cost decision

[zwarte piet]

Yup, every time I try something like that it ends in some degree of bloodshed. Use scissors to open a package and a coconut you just throw on a stone floot till it cracks.

Re: Its a cost decision

[LordWabbit2]

I would say it depends on the item. I wanted a DVD player for the bedroom, my wife went to the local store and came back with cheapest ass DVD player she could find (if I had gone I would not have) so I plugged it in and was pleasantly surprised with all it’s features, so much so I went back the next day and bought another one for the lounge (and save playing them in the PSX2). That was more than 10 years ago, they are still going strong. However I used to buy mid range boots for hiking and would need to replace them once a year because I would work through the sole, bought an upper range pair and only have to change them every 3 years.

Re: Its a cost decision

[Alioth]

SMD components are not hard to replace (with the exception of BGA and their ilk). But the usual 0.5mm pitch QFP type stuff, to get the dead one off I use a hot air gun, and to put the new one on, flux, solder, normal soldering iron, solder braid and kapton tape are the tools I use.

Also I design most of my hobby electronics stuff to use SMD. Smaller PCB = lower price for the PCB, and a lot of the interesting chips only come in some SMD package.

Re:Its a cost decision

[boskone]

Correct.

Water heater won't stay lit.... If it was a vessel issue, I would replace the heater (myself for $400 and 4-5 hours including selecting and getting the heater to the house).

However, it's just the resistor in the thermocouple assembly. $50, with shipping, will yield me a part that I can swap in 10 minutes with a screwdriver.

This is knowing "when" to fix something.

Re:Its a cost decision

[HornWumpus]

If you like JB weld look up 'resinlab ep1290'.

20,000 psi in compression.

Re:Its a cost decision

[s0nicfreak]

It was faster and cheaper THIS time but not in the long run; if you had ordered the screwdriver bits you'd have them for next time.

Re:Its a cost decision

[west]

Ah, but did you factor in the several hundred hours involved in obtaining enough competence in minor engineering repair so that you could in fact diagnose, order and repair the appliance?

I will repair (or more often, destroy while *trying* to repair) things around the house, but I carefully avoid calculating how much time it costs me. As soon as I start calculating hours spent taking things apart, diagnosing, ordering replacements and attempting repairs, the cost/benefit equation goes out the window.

The analysis might be different if one was naturally handy (for one, the success rate might be a lot higher than my 50%). And if it could be considered mildly entertaining, then it becomes a totally different matter.

Re:Its a cost decision

[Trax3001BBS]

JB Weld is your friend for these types of jobs.

I restore old motorcycles which means parts are generally not available at all. So you have to fix what you have. JB weld is the saviour of sooooo many plastic tanks that have cracked.

JB Weld can't be beat. My motorcycle's aluminum brake assembly broke almost in half (where the leaver, pushes the brake pads out) I used JB Weld to join both pieces and it worked; holding up to all the stress while braking. but I did ride differently than before, just in case.

I always have JB Weld on hand, I don't trust any other Epoxy to work as well.

Re:Its a cost decision

[Harlequin80]

Maybe. I have a very skewed upbringing as everyone in my family was expected to be able to fix things. My sister even has her own complete set of basic workshop tools which my dad gave to her after he had them anodised pink (socket set, pliers, screwdrivers, & spanners).

I grew up believing that changing an oil & filter was a basic skill. Kind of like being able to change a light bulb. It wasn't until I was in my 20s that I realised that wasn't the case.

Re: Its a cost decision

[sjames]

Prhaps, but since my family was never rich, It must have been within reach for an average family. And she never had to buy another one nor did her daughter nor my mother. Since my sewing is limited to amateurish minor repairs, it serves me adequately as well.

Many of those craftsman homes were in fine shape when they were bulldozed to make way for a new high rise, freeway, etc. The steam engines were replaced by better technology when it came along but they had long ago paid for themselves and then some. Actually, a lot of those old sewing machines are still in use. Many have been sold and re-sold and are now used in an industrial setting. A number of them were destroyed by fires, floods, and other disasters large and small. Some were replaced when more advanced models came out,

I'm not advocating that machines be made to last well beyond the time they will reasonably be replaced, just that they should not be designed to fail long before they would be willingly replaced. It may not make sense to build a 100 year cellphone, but honestly, how much advancement are we likely to see in blender technology?

But primarily, I was refuting the claim that stuff has always been designed to fail. There was definitely a time when it wasn't and I have functional evidence of that.

Note to capitalists: business model

[smittyoneeach]

So it sounds like the marketing pitch is that you want gadgets, just not so integrated that you can't understand/repair them.
Not everything needs to be optimized to a fare-thee-well, with "an app for that".

Re:Note to capitalists: business model

[CrimsonAvenger]

No, you ignore this idiot.

When your CUSTOMERS start complaining about this sort of thing, you do something about it.

When a professor somewhere complains that your customers are doing it wrong by buying things that they want then tossing them when they break, you don't waste time worrying about it.

Note that any redesign of most devices to make them more repairable will almost certainly make them more expensive to buy in the first place. Whether you can make something that is repairable and lower cost over the life of the device (as opposed to buying cheaper and replacing instead of repairing) is debatable.

Re:Note to capitalists: business model

[thesupraman]

ROTFL, written like a good little consumer. The koolaid is strong in this one ;)

There is VERY little debate, it is often no more expensive to make something repairable, and thats not even the professors complain (or a good attempt at a strawman..), their complaint is that consumers are not bothering to even try and fix or have things fixed because they dont know how or that it is possible.

ie: they are well trained little consumers also.

Of course it is good for the companies selling items, but it is pretty damn stupid from ANY other point of view.

Re:Note to capitalists: business model

[virtual_mps]

Hmm. Seems to me it's also good for the following points of view:

1) Miniaturization
2) Reduced cost and/or power consumption via increased integration
3) Improved ergonomics (case design not dictated by repair requirements)
4) Aerodynamics
5) Durability (repairability generally requires additional access points, fasteners, etc., which are themselves points of failure)

Or maybe there are no rational reasons to design things in way that's hard to repair, and it's all just a big conspiracy.

Integrated this, integrated that

[by (1706743)]

Part of the problem could be that so many things are integrated now.

Entry-level audio gear, for instance, tends to use integrated amplifiers -- no longer can you fix easily fix a blown power transistor, as you could with older gear. Same thing with cars -- adjusting the timing on a car was sort of a rite of passage for many, but it's hardly feasible on a new car with computer-controlled everything.

Re:Integrated this, integrated that

[chipschap]

A blown power transistor? You whippersnappers don't remember the "good old days" of vaccuum tubes! Seriously, though, monolithic circuitry has lowered costs immensely, at the price of non-fixability. But then, a chip will last much longer than a vaccuum tube.

Re:Integrated this, integrated that

[hugetoon]

I second that and would also emphase that many gadgets are made unfixable on purpose: glued in such a way that they would break if You try to open them, outside screws with non conventional head types. These are not cost reduction measures but rather anti-tamper protections.

Re:Integrated this, integrated that

[0123456]

These are not cost reduction measures but rather anti-tamper protections.

Yes and no. In some cases you may be correct, but when I worked in consumer electronics, the devices were glued because it was cheaper and screws would have required us to use a thicker care just so there was space for the screws.

And 99.9% of people would just throw it away if it failed, so why worry about it?

Re:Integrated this, integrated that

[thesupraman]

Actually the amplifier chips are usually easier to source and replace than they used to be, certainly a lot easier to diagnose.
The problem is people dont care, they consider the cost to be low enough they dont bother to try, and unless you try (and inevitably often fail)
you dont build up the skill set to be able to repair things.

In fact I would suggest that over half of modern electronics failures are bad capacitors, or power supply issues - even after the ones that are
purely mechanical (wires, switches, etc).

Re:Integrated this, integrated that

[nine-times]

Sort of related, but I think it's also noteworthy that the complexity of a lot of devices has increased with the addition of computing. I might be able to fix a lamp, for example, so long as it's a simple electrical device. But if someone makes a fancy new "smart lamp" with a computer built in to do something fancy, and that computing part breaks, then I'll have a much harder time fixing it. On top of that, if there were "smart lamps" all over the place, and my 3 year-old smart-lamp breaks, then I'll probably go looking for a new one with new features, better energy efficiency, and more computing power.

All that aside, I wonder if it's really worth considering a 'problem'. The complaint is that people don't fix things as often partially because things work better and aren't breaking as often. That sounds like a good thing. Now, I do see value in trying to recycle and repurpose broken electronics, but I'm not much of a "maker" myself. I don't intend to be, and I don't planning on spending lots of time trying to repair or repurpose my own stuff. I have a job, and other things that keep me busy, and though I find things like 3D printers interesting, I wouldn't know what to do with one.

Re:Integrated this, integrated that

[trout007]

There is no way to adjust timing anymore. I had a 1998 Civic that was just when electronic timing started but they still had a distributer. I went to adjust the timing after replacing plugs and when I turned the distributer the car started to stall then to my suprise fixed itself. I stood there for a few minutes in wonder as I could move the distributer from one side to the other and the computer would figure out how to fix my mistake. I guess they left the ability to adjust the timing in case the computer failed.

Re:Integrated this, integrated that

[Krishnoid]

And if they're tightly integrated now, how about when the circuits are printed right into the product?

Re:Integrated this, integrated that

[by (1706743)]

Sorry, I should have been more explicit -- I was referring to ignition timing, not cam timing. As far as I know, ignition timing is now handled by computers, whereas it was a simple mechanical setup on older cars.

If you assume that this is Slashdot and everyone's an idiot, then you'll probably see idiots everywhere.

Re:Integrated this, integrated that

[by (1706743)]

Completely agree; more reliability & cheaper = I'm not going to spend my time on a newish broken piece of equipment if I can just buy something else. But if my old tube amp breaks, you can be sure I'll be taking a voltmeter to it =)

I guess what I would find interesting is to see if this is actually having an impact on, say, STEM degree seekers. Are first-year EE students less prepared than their predecessors who were born and raised changing vacuum tubes on their radio and consulting schematics?

Re:Integrated this, integrated that

[by (1706743)]

Hah, nice. I had a neighbor who had a GORGEOUS old (late 50s, early 60s?) Porsche Carrera 4 cam. He did all the work on it himself. He also had a new BMW station wagon. As he put it, "I can't even change the spark plugs on that thing."

It's not all bad of course -- things are pretty reliable these days. But, it seems to me that something's lost.

Re:Integrated this, integrated that

[by (1706743)]

Easy there, my daily-driver is a Dynaco ST-70 tube amp =) Had to replace a filter cap but it's been a real workhorse other than that.

Indeed, reliability on modern electronics is pretty amazing; it's certainly not a "worse" situation than before, just...different.

Re:Integrated this, integrated that

[Harlequin80]

UUURRRRGHHH Points...... KILL ME NOW!

The points system is mechanically simple. It is also one of THE most horrible systems in the world to get working nicely. I have never been a smoker but points are a reason I always kept a packet of tally-ho cigarette papers. You put the paper in the point and then slowly advance then engine till you can pull the paper out. Ok that is where you are going to get your spark. Ok now that is 70 degrees out, lets take the whole thing apart and start again......

First thing I do on any restoration project is unscrew the points assembly, wash it, dry it, spray it with a lubricant, put it in a zip lock bag. And then replace it with an electronic ignition system.

Re:Integrated this, integrated that

[drinkypoo]

Same thing with cars -- adjusting the timing on a car was sort of a rite of passage for many, but it's hardly feasible on a new car with computer-controlled everything.

It's hardly necessary. For those times when it is, you reflash the PCM, which is something that today's generation is certainly familiar with. They do it to their phones all the time.

Re:Integrated this, integrated that

[Mike610544]

Apple with the 'pentalobular' screws certainly seems to have had anti-tampering in mind. I don't remember seeing any other justification for those over torx.

Re:Integrated this, integrated that

[Z00L00K]

And still that's something you can fix with next to nothing in tools in the middle of nowhere in the dark.

Electronic ignition system - nope, then you can just start to walk.

Re:Integrated this, integrated that

[zwarte piet]

I suspect the crazy American claim culture plays a role also. They might be liable if you manage to open it and electrocute yourself because you didn't unplug the device first or modify it and set your house on fire.

Re:Integrated this, integrated that

[serviscope_minor]

Electronic ignition system - nope, then you can just start to walk.

But how often does an electronic ignition system fail compared to one of the older ones.

Cars these days have appliance like reliability. Compared to cars in previous years they need almost no running maintainance and almost never break. And that includes stuff you cant fix with no tools in the dark in the middle of nowhere.

Re:Integrated this, integrated that

[kimvette]

> There is no way to adjust timing anymore.

You do it via OBD-II and CAN via software now, not by a vaguely semi-accurate twisting of a distributor. It's a heck of a lot more complex than it used to be - multiple lookup tables to build but for many makes there are software suites online made my enthusiasts and even performance timing and fuel curve profiles you can download for various makes and models. The benefits are huge; timing isn't driven by RPM and vacuum any more, but by actual power requests made by the position of the throttle position sensor, and air intake is now metered rather than a moronic mechanically-driven butterfly valve that you'd find in a Quadrobog carburator, and the best part is modern ECUs are often learning ECUs, where they test the fuel to see how lean the mixture can run and how far timing can be advanced without pinging, maximizing BOTH performance and economy.

I'd rather give up having to constantly replace worn distributor caps and rotors and monkey around with a timing light for the increased overall efficiency and reliability. Yes, the coil pack-on-plug design is more expensive to service but when the coil packs normally last 200K+ miles, who the heck cares? That would have been about 10 distributor cap and rotor sets, plus many sets of ignition wires. Good riddance to distributors and quadrobog carburators.

Re:Integrated this, integrated that

[Trax3001BBS]

A blown power transistor? You whippersnappers don't remember the "good old days" of vaccuum tubes!

Vacuum tube T.V's are where I got my start in electronics. First look for the ones not glowing, take them to Radio Shack and use their tester to check if the tube was bad, heck there were even tube testers in some supermarkets.

A fairly new T.V. of ours quit working, checking it out the flyback transformer wasn't working. Changed out the power transistor fixed it right up, and looking good to my better half at the time.

How do you know if a flyback transformer is working? You find yourself in the next room if you touch it :} almost put me through a wall (a vacuum tube setup).

Re:Integrated this, integrated that

[Harlequin80]

Not really. Assuming you have had a breakdown as a result of a points failure or timing slipping due to a loosening screw you aren't going to fix it on the side of the road.

Lets work through this. Your vehicle stops for no apparent reason, or drops a cylinder and no longer has the power to move forward. You are conveniently somewhere safe and unlikely to be run over so you can get started of diagnosing the problem. Assuming your system is as basic as possible these are the MINIMUM steps you would have to go through. Assuming you have checked fuses etc first.

Step 1. Engines not running are usually 1 of two problems - fuel or spark (if it's not one of those you are essentially screwed anyway). So which is it? If I dropped a cylinder rather than just dead stopping I can spit on each exhaust manifold to see which one isn't as hot as the others. If it is 1, chances are it's a spark plug, if it's 2 look further up the system. Either way though the next step is to take out the spark plug, rest it on the engine and see if you have a spark. Tools needed, spark plug spanner. If you are in a car at this point you need an assistant to see if you have a spark cause you can't do that while turning the key, if you are on a motorcycle you can still do this yourself (if you could get the spark plugs out without dismantling the whole bike that is).

Step 2a - you have no spark. Stick finger in HV lead and turn ignition. Be unable to decide if you want to get whacked by the voltage or not. Don't get whacked. Ok so it is electrical. But you have no way of telling if it is coil, distributor, points, or bad connections. Check distributor cap, looks fine, coils not melted, open points cover, looks ok? Maybe if you are lucky you can see that a point arm has broken, or welded - outcome no going anywhere.

Step 2b. You have sparks on all 4 plugs. So the next assumption has to be fuel. Disconnect the fuel main line from your injector manifold or carb. Minimum tool, Phillips head. Turn on ignition, does fuel come out under pressure from the fuel pump? Yes. Refit main line. Real bitch to do without pliers. If it's a carbed car hit the bottom of the float bowls just incase a float has stuck. Also if it is carbed you probably want to drop the fuel out of the bowls in case you had water in the fuel. ring spanner

Step 3. Have spark, have fuel. Now what? The problems it could be have just moved from the simple to the really really hard. Check coolant for bubbles or white deposits - nope so not a cracked head. Stick hand over exhaust pipe - does it push hand off? Yep so I have compression. Engine is turning over and not sounding like bolts in a blender so I probably haven't dropped a valve. WTF could it be. OK by some inspiration I decide it is timing.

Step 4 - chasing the timing. First I need to be able to see the flywheel or some other mark to determine TDC. At the very least that is under a cover, probably held in by either allen keys or bolts - so socket set. Now I crank the engine to tdc. BIG ASS socket on a BIG ASS bar needed to turn engine over.

Ah forget it. I'm covered in grime, frustrated as fuck. All I can smell is petrol, it's pitch black and I have been here for HOURS. Hello tow truck, can you come and get me please.

Electronic ignition fails, mechanical ignition fails. On the side of the road it really don't matter which one died.

Then Prof George demanded everyone leave his lawn.

[jeff4747]

(There's really nothing to be said here. Slashdot just requires writing something in the big box in the mistaken belief that that will somehow create more thoughtful discussion)

fixing modern gadget

[Anonymous Coward]

Oh sure - if a tiny grain capacitor without marking is failing - I bet the author can't even de-solder it
find the same part and solder it back on

same with BGA chip - ever try desolder a 400 balls BGA chip in your gadget and try to find that chip in your radio shack?

Re:fixing modern gadget

[rubycodez]

actually common cause of monitor problems now is with capacitors that can be replaced.

Re:fixing modern gadget

[monkeyhybrid]

That's my experience too, at least with televisions. My dad fixed his first two LCD TVs after taking the back off, spotting the obviously blown capacitor, ordering a big bag of spares off eBay for pennies, and replacing them. A very simple bit of soldering and hey presto, working TV that is still going strong after a few more years of use. It's got to the point where friends and family have occasionally asked either of us to look at their malfunctioning TVs and I think all but one of them has been brought back to life in the very same way. I've even been donated a 'broken' TV that was fixed in the same way, so for something like £0.16 and 10 minutes of my time, I now have a rather nice TV for my spare room.

Re: fixing modern gadget

[ceoyoyo]

Desoldering them isn't too bad. Soldering the replacement back on though....

Re:fixing modern gadget

[Z00L00K]

Radio Shack - you must be joking... You can't find anything there anymore.

Re:fixing modern gadget

[zequav]

Yep, just fixed my Samsung 226BW a week ago by replacing two 820uF and one 330uF capacitors. Total cost: 2€.

Re:fixing modern gadget

[Alioth]

But it's usually not those things that actually fail. Most of the random failures on electronics I've seen recently are:

* bad memory modules in computers (trivial to fix)
* bad capacitors (easy to fix)
* linear power regulators breaking their solder joints to the PCB due to heating/cooling (easy to fix)

Although we did have some LCD backlights that failed because as the capacitors started to fail, the power transistor in the DC-DC converter would also go (but it was extremely easy to spot due to the melted hole in the power transistor). We just replaced the LCD backlight DC-DC converter rather than doing any soldering.

It's very rare that some BGA chip is the thing that died in your gadget.

Re:fixing modern gadget

[fnj]

If you can work out how to open the goddam thing up without breaking it, and source all the required capacitors.

Re:fixing modern gadget

[Guppy]

Oh sure - if a tiny grain capacitor without marking is failing - I bet the author can't even de-solder it
find the same part and solder it back on

same with BGA chip - ever try desolder a 400 balls BGA chip in your gadget and try to find that chip in your radio shack?

There are little repair places in China and Hong Kong that will do exactly that. I've heard it's amazing the kind of repairs and mods you can get done in little hole-in-the-wall shops over there.

One way to look at it

[Kokuyo]

When your toaster costs 20 dollars, how long can it take to take it apart, find the fault and put it together again, before it becomes a huge waste of time?

Or am I just the only one who values his free time? I'll gladly put in new flooring or do some basic plumbing or electricity work, if it saves me the hundreds of dollars a professional would cost, especially when him just driving here costs me a hundred per default. However, many appliances and gadgets cost little enough and can be ordered online... why should I waste my time on that?

Also, electronics are not my thing. So what doesn't have electronics in them?

Seriously, I can't know about each and every niche in life... I know how to forge knives and carve longbows already... do you expect me to make my own shoes as well?

Re:One way to look at it

[i.r.id10t]

Dunno. Depends on the toaster. My current one is a 4 slice model with wide holes, so I can do the nice thick bagels we get from a local bakery. Haven't seen a toaster like it in ages, and if it died I may be tempted to have it fixed or try to fix it myself.

Re:One way to look at it

[Dr_Barnowl]

This one is a King amongst toasters

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Dualit...

Re:One way to look at it

[thesupraman]

With a toaster it is almost certainly a simple mechanical or electrical connection issue, so its usually a 5 or 10 minute fix.

Or, you know, just dont bother and add it to the landfills, I know which path I wold prefer.

Re:One way to look at it

[camperdave]

When your toaster costs 20 dollars, how long can it take to take it apart, find the fault and put it together again, before it becomes a huge waste of time?

How long would it take to go to the mall or go online and comparison shop different toaster models? Some things are a huge waste of time no matter how you handle them.

Re:One way to look at it

[CanadianMacFan]

Many of those cheap things are made so that you can't get into them without breaking them. They are so inexpensive that repair isn't designed into them. For example the plastic case snaps shut or a rivet is used instead of a screw. I tried to get into a cheap blender to see if I could fix it but ended up busting the case.

Re:One way to look at it

[gweihir]

You also have to factor in the time spent to get a new one and to dispose of the old one.

Re:One way to look at it

[jfmiller]

Well, that depends on whether you are making $20/hr in the US or UK or living on less then a dollar a day in Ghana.

Re:One way to look at it

[Z00L00K]

Depends on how far it is to the shop.

Re:One way to look at it

[Sardaukar86]

When your toaster costs 20 dollars, how long can it take to take it apart, find the fault and put it together again, before it becomes a huge waste of time?

Precisely. The ideal solution to this issue is innovation; I've personally found the best approach is a small investment in Helium gas tanks.

With the combined application of a large inflatable balloon and the He gas I find that - given time - most of my electrical appliance issues simply float away to become somebody else's problem (SEP field generator courtesy of Douglas Adams).

Yeah, sure

[russotto]

This is why there are no forums full of information of how to replace the screen on your phone or tablet. This is why ifixit.com doesn't exist. This is why you can't order OBD scanners for your car.

It's only a minority of people who are skilled and interested enough to fix things. But that's always been so. It's just that now it's typically cheaper to replace broken things (well, not cars) than call in someone who can fix them, because labor costs for repair are so high compared to initial manufacturing costs.

Re:Yeah, sure

[Damarkus13]

Who here can fix a motherboard on a washer or dryer? anyone?

That depends on what component is fried. A dried up or blown electrolytic capacitor, no problem. Some small poorly marked discrete component, might be tough to figure out the proper capacitance (or whatever). Some mystery IC, good luck.

The problem isn't the physical act of replacing the component (except in size constrained devices, like smartphones). The problem is identifying the failed component.

Re:Yeah, sure

[MightyYar]

Who here can fix a motherboard on a washer or dryer? anyone?

The high cost of repairs on those things is exactly why I specifically bought a Speed Queen with a mechanical timer. So some of us still pay a little more for repair-ability :)

Re:Yeah, sure

[Anonymous Coward]

O. M. G. It's a double woosh. If the explanation of the woosh caused another woosh.

Re:Yeah, sure

[virtual_mps]

Replacing a screen makes economic sense for only a vanishingly small period of time, after which it's cheaper to ebay an entire phone than to procure the parts. Some people want to master the skill of changing such things out, just as there are people who want to master the skills of flint knapping or making homespun fabric. But that's just because they want to, not for any practical reason.

Re:Yeah, sure

[virtual_mps]

Actually, I did resolder my washing machine control board. (It was a victim of the early ROHS solder that tended to develop mechanical fractures.)

Re:Yeah, sure

[MightyYar]

My soldering skills are not... great. I gave a tech at work a case of beer to redo the cracked solder on my windshield wiper control board in my Chevy. It was all easy through-hole stuff, but I don't trust myself for something that controls the wipers and has to be out in the elements! :)

Re:Yeah, sure

[gzuckier]

i'm weirded out by the extinction of manuals, instructions, even readmes. especially all those phone apps, half of them arent as obvious as the person seems to believe.

Re:Yeah, sure

[Trax3001BBS]

This is why there are no forums full of information of how to replace the screen on your phone or tablet. This is why ifixit.com doesn't exist.

Oh yes it does exist, I'm reminded almost daily by the e-mail they send out.

Re:Yeah, sure

[Trax3001BBS]

You're proving the lecturer's point. Ifixit.com is filling the small gap left by the complete abandonment by product manufacturers of any sort of repair instructions or spare parts supply.

Ifixit.com showed me how to take apart my Motorola Xoom tablet, and there are tricks to taking off the back cover.

maybe its not the kids

[bugs2squash]

maybe these infernal new-fangled gadgets are close to impossible to fix, requiring special tools and facilities that papa's john deere did not.

Re:maybe its not the kids

[See Attached]

Mostly as tough as you want. Just fixed a current washing machine yesterday. Youtube helped, but just to get the doors off. Many things are still made of consituent parts, and the interconnects then are most likely to fail. I took apart a top-rated AA-AAA battery charger, that had some crud buillt up on/in it. A mystical clear plastic rectangle did me in, as it had some sort of invisible trace thru it, so that re-assembly was impossible. Contacted the Mfr (chinese) and they said disassembly was not possible. (what?). our culture is in love with "getting above it".. things like the Cloud (we dont hire IT now, its contracted), the Internet (experience things or gather globally), food (Buy food out of a paper bag, not hunt/kill). Started with the Ice Machine, eh? My John Deere started making some whizzing in the mower deck. Hoping it goes away, but I figure I'll need to replace somehing soon!

Re:maybe its not the kids

[drinkypoo]

A mystical clear plastic rectangle did me in, as it had some sort of invisible trace thru it, so that re-assembly was impossible.

sounds like time for a jumper wire, to go around where the plastic rectangle goes...

Re: maybe its not the kids

[See Attached]

normally, yes. run a thin jumper, but there were 30 parallel pads on the display that had to be connected as well. so I did what is done now, left less than stellar review for the device on amazon. is that the new normal? ?

some modern electronic gagets can not be fixed

[FudRucker]

surface mount micro tech components is so small that human hands with a soldiering iron can not fix it, and those electronic gadgets and put together so tightly with hidden clasps that snap together that simply taking them apart destroys them unless you are a specialist with those gadgets

Re:some modern electronic gagets can not be fixed

[Rob Riggs]

A soldering iron? You are using the wrong tool. We have new tools for handling surface mount components that work just as well as a soldering iron does for through-hole work. Real humans can and do fix surface mount electronics.

Re:some modern electronic gagets can not be fixed

[Alioth]

With the exception of BGA a decent soldering iron is fine for SMD. I can solder a 144 pin 0.5mm QFP quicker than I can solder a through hole 40 pin DIP component.

Re:some modern electronic gagets can not be fixed

[Rob Riggs]

With the exception of BGA a decent soldering iron is fine for SMD. I can solder a 144 pin 0.5mm QFP quicker than I can solder a through hole 40 pin DIP component.

I would love to see you fix a board with a bad QFP with only a soldering iron. A hot-air rework station is a far more appropriate tool for removing said QFP if it is in need of replacement. We are talking about fixing broken electronics after all.

Luddites!

[Anonymous Coward]

Obviously, when something breaks, you throw it out.

Then you simply download a new one and fire up the old Printerbot or Makerbot!

Duh! Only a LUDDITE can't see that.

Cultural Shift

[CohibaVancouver]

It's also a cultural shift - When I was a kid, I remember my dad being down in the basement for hours fixing stuff, working on the car or what have you, while my mum took care of us kids. Now that I'm a dad, I'm out at the park with my kids, or taking them to swimming lessons or just doing general Dad stuff. So while I have the aptitude for fixing stuff (likely inherited from my dad), I don't have the time - I'm busy parenting. It's just not acceptable for a Dad to be down in the basement or the garage for hours on end while the mum upstairs is going insane.

Re: Cultural Shift

[CohibaVancouver]

Yeah, maybe that day will come... But as of today, my kids simply don't have the patience / attention span to 'help' as I replace the brushes in the lawn mower.

Re:Cultural Shift

[feufeu]

Now that's illogic. How would you have inherited your aptitute to fix things from your dad if you weren't down in the basement with him ? Genetically ???

I rather teach my kids basic but sufficient swimming capabilities and spend the rest of our time on something intellectually more challenging like, say, repairing broken stuff. I'll spare my 'useless sports skills' vs. 'being constructive in any way' rant for tomorrow...

Re:Cultural Shift

[dbIII]

I remember being with my dad for hours fixing stuff.

Re:Cultural Shift

[Z00L00K]

Take up woodworking. That's a skill that can be useful today as well as tomorrow - making your own bench, stool or whatever is never going old.

It's not age-specific

[apraetor]

If this effect is real, then it's also being retconned into my parents generation (I'm 31) as well; I think it's more about the changing nature of our technological products and the fact that they are not constructed in a manner conducive to repair.

Eloi

[mrflash818]

H.G. Wells has given us a glimpse how things might end up for those that cannot create/fix/use anything: meatl

Also

[jkonrath]

This generation doesn't know how to shoe horses. And they're terrible with cave drawings.

Re:Also

[Rob Riggs]

And they're terrible with cave drawings.

We call it "graffiti" these days. And, yes, I agree it is terrible.

Re:Also

[zwarte piet]

Horses are yummy.

Re:Also

[schlachter]

It's not that we don't know how to shoe horses, it's just that horses are so cheap these days what when their shoes break off, it's cheaper to toss the horse off a cliff and buy a new horse that has newer, more secure shoes on it.

speak for yourself.

[Karmashock]

This guy is clueless. Large portions of every generation were useless at repairing things.

Re:speak for yourself.

[Dr_Barnowl]

You're the second person to make this mistake in the thread.

"Danielle". Not "Daniel."

ie, a woman.

Interesting bias. A professor of engineering has to be a man, right?

Re:speak for yourself.

[Spy Handler]

Understandable given that 99% of engineering profs *are* men. Not interesting at all.

Now if he had that bias when talking about McDonald's fry cooks, that would be interesting. Because that sector is well diversified with a near 50-50 male/female distribution.

Re:speak for yourself.

[Anonymous Coward]

professor of engineering has to be a man, right?

Not if she has nice tits :-)

Re:speak for yourself.

[dbIII]

Understandable given that 99% of engineering profs *are* men

It's not IT or computer science so the ratio is not quite that bad.

Re:speak for yourself.

[Kjella]

You're the second person to make this mistake in the thread. "Danielle". Not "Daniel." ie, a woman. Interesting bias. A professor of engineering has to be a man, right?

Well English doesn't have an indeterminate gender, you could use "it" or singular "they" but it sounds awful.

"A person walks into a bar. He orders a drink." - Male
"A person walks into a bar. She orders a drink." - Female
"A person walks into a bar. It orders a drink." - Lt. Commander Data
"A person walks into a bar. They orders a drink." - Gollum
"Messa walks into a bar. Messa orders a drink." - Jar Jar

So if you haven't bothered to check because honestly what's between their legs is totally irrelevant to the conversation you'll usually end up talking about them as if they were male.

Re:speak for yourself.

[PrimaryConsult]

Whether or not "they" can be used with a singular antecedent is up for debate. Unfortunately, the imaginary PC police keep trying to promote he/she and other awkwardisms for a problem that's been solved for over 200 years. Sourced blog entry on the subject.

Either way, I'll continue using "they" as a singular gender neutral pronoun, and if anyone has a problem with that they can go to heck.

Re: speak for yourself.

[ceoyoyo]

Interesting article. I notice that the author's examples all involve multiple people (everyone, everybody) even if they are technically singular. The GP's examples are explicitly singular - a person walks into a bar. "They" sounds more jarring in that context.

Personally, I see no problem just accepting that the masculine doubles as the designated sex-indeterminate pronoun in many languages including English. On the other hand it's not really important enough to fight the use of "they" either.

I did enjoy, when I was in undergrad, writing an essay as an ethics assignment about a hypothetical professor who abused *their* position of authority to push a political agenda in an unrelated class. This was a replacement assignment I was forced to write after my professor objected to my referring to the hypothetical character in my original essay as "he."

Re:speak for yourself.

[phantomfive]

Interesting bias. A professor of engineering has to be a man, right?

No, but men are always wrong, and they never ask for directions.

(j/k j/k)

Re:speak for yourself.

[Karmashock]

No, I just read the summary. I don't even remember reading the professor's name.

As to assuming a gender... the language is unusable unless you assign a gender to the person you're referring to. And that means I have to choose one or the other.

Flip a coin and 50 percent of the time you're going to be wrong.

Your presumption that you can impose political correctness horseshit upon me or anyone else over that kind of comment is disgusting. Unless you know the person you presume to judge, you have no basis to judge them.

You are effectively suggesting that from a little slip like that you can get far more insight into my character and values then is possible. The argument is fallacious, presumptuous, and stupid.

Kindly do not do that to anyone else. It literally annoys everyone. Even people like yourself that do that sort of thing hate it when people serve them a dose of your own medicine. So just don't.

Ever again.

Re:speak for yourself.

[Actually, I do RTFA]

Well, the fact that her last name is "George" and the last time she is referenced in the summary it is as "Prof. George", with "George" on it's own line, implies to me it's most likely a case of some for of skimming and/or bias towards the last use of the name.

It would be very interesting to run a test of how many people caught gender with a) an ambiguous last name and/or b) a more distinctively obvious at skimming speed female name.

No User Servicable Parts Inside

[The New Guy 2.0]

iPhones won't let you change the battery, and give you a hard time getting to the SIM card. Most other cell phones follow suit.
Want to change providers? You get a free new device.

Fixing tech is better done by Best Buy's Geek Squad since have all of the test devices that you would only use once to find your problem component.

Re:No User Servicable Parts Inside

[gnasher719]

iPhones won't let you change the battery, and give you a hard time getting to the SIM card. Most other cell phones follow suit.

Replacing an iPhone battery is very simple: Take it to the store, hand over your cash, it gets replaced. And it's not much more than you would pay for a genuine battery if you could find one. (Admittedly it is much more expensive than a battery that looks exactly like a genuine one).

For replacing the SIM card, you need a tiny little tool that comes with every iPhone. I think a paperclip will do as well.

Re: No User Servicable Parts Inside

[ceoyoyo]

Ha ha, seriously? I once replaced an iPhone battery with no tools other than a sharp kitchen knife because I was travelling, had no tools, and a buddy was in a bind. With an appropriate screwdriver it's a five minute job.

Replacing a SIM is a five second job using the tool provided with every phone or, more practically, with a paperclip. Those of us who actually leave our home countries once in a while and bought our phones instead of leasing them from the phone company do it quite successfully.

Re:No User Servicable Parts Inside

[Z00L00K]

Assuming I have an iPhone to start with.

And people over 40 don't know how to reinstall

[GoodNewsJimDotCom]

I see so many people who go: Hurr, Durr, my computer has a virus, I guess I'll just store it or throw it away.

Generally it isn't hard to reinstall an OS. It is a pain, but it isn't hard. And if you get sick of it, install Linux because almost no viruses target Linux.

My dad knows how to fix cars because he grew up in a world of no computers and cars were cool to get into then. I can't fix cars because I got involves in programming and video games.

Am I really supposed to be fiddling with fixing a blender? That sounds near suicidal for someone who isn't trained in it. And how cheap blenders are, there probably isn't a lot of market for a blender repair man either.

Re:And people over 40 don't know how to reinstall

[GoodNewsJimDotCom]

Conclusion: Everyone has different skill sets.
PS: I always think it'd be cool if they designed a car for the car heads to work on, but it'd be like that episode of the Simpsons where Homer bankrupts the company because people would get hurt working on the car, and then sue because the car was designed to be worked on. Every year it seems like cars get harder and harder to work on by a non professional mechanic.

Re:And people over 40 don't know how to reinstall

[Proudrooster]

I used to think the same thing, until I learned you can get a NEW Toshiba laptop regular price at Best Buy for $300. I can't believe how inexpensive new machines have become. I can't even buy a Windows 7 license for less than $100, yet somehow I can get a whole laptop for $300.

The savings in buying something old, putting money into it and fixing it up, especially in computer hardware just doesn't make sense anymore. Unless you just have to reflow the solder in your trusty toaster oven, it is probably easier to buy a new one than fix up an old one.

Re:And people over 40 don't know how to reinstall

[GoodNewsJimDotCom]

It isn't hard to get a virus on Windows. Many people can get a virus in their first week of owning a product. Going out and buying a 300$ product every week is not cost feasible. In fact there's probably a correlation between how gullible a person is for falling for Internet virus scams and their ineptitude for reinstalling windows... Call it the noob factor.

Re:And people over 40 don't know how to reinstall

[Z00L00K]

And today people in workshops ends up being code readers - that code, then it's that fault. They never look at the system as a whole.

A friend of mine had problems with a car, and it kept throwing codes, they replaced random stuff and finally he traded it in. Later it was discovered that they made a mistake at the factory and entered the wrong part number for the MAF so the car was equipped with the wrong MAF, but every time they replaced it they just looked at the numbers and mounted the wrong one again.

The person discovering it was not the ordinary code-reading grunt but someone with experience - just tells us all that nothing beats experience. And experience is not something you gain in the school bench.

Previous generations

[DaFallus]

Wasn't it the previous generations that decided that replaceable parts were too expensive? I'm only 32, so I'm pretty sure that it wasn't my generation that started manufacturing everything in a way that makes it cheaper to simply replace the entire unit rather than custom ordering replacement parts...

Too much time on campus and in the big city

[BobandMax]

If the good professor were to venture out to the sticks and (gasp) converse with the provincials, he would find many capable young people that understand mechanisms and basic electrical/electronics. My younger daughter replaced a water pump on her Mazda and only needed to ask me for the Permatex. (wipes away tear) It made Dad proud.

Re:Then Prof George demanded everyone leave his la

[RDW]

Since Prof George is (a) under 40 and (b) not a 'he', that seems rather unlikely: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/D...

Expectations

[SpaghettiPattern]

Why expect anyone to do economically pointless work? By the same standards you could wonder why we stopped grinding wheat. Or darning socks. Even though I am a tinkerer, I appreciate most people avoid fixing appliances.

Also, we are moving towards a society where working is no longer required. Youths today are perfecioning the art of chatting and consuming. Although such a life style is not my cup of tea, I realise that the alternative would be unemployed peoplen rioting. Governments and corporations will come up with a scheme to keep the masses happy and consuming. We will live in even more interesting times

Delicate electronics

[Sigma 7]

claims that the under 40s expect everything to 'just work' and have no idea what to do when things go wrong

I have a Samsung computer monitor that isn't properly detected if I use the DVI cable, although the VGA cable works fine. This prevents Mac OS from detecting the monitor, and confuses Windows. (The technical details: it's not transmitting EDID over the DVI connection.)

The quick fix for Windows worked for a while, but a driver update changed how things work and would be constantly confused by that monitor. The proper fix requires opening the monitor, using a multimeter to find what's wrong with the DVI connector, and fixing or replacing it. This is not something you can do on a weekend, as opposed to fixing a larger appliance.

The problem isn't around knowledge, but that it requires equipment not expected to be in a normal home. A house can have tools available to fix large mechanical objects, but not extremely delicate electronics that require an electron scanning microscope to properly fix. The repair costs for devices usually indicate that the whole device has gone bad as opposed to an easily swapped component, meaning the manufacturers also have trouble getting things to work as well.

Re:Delicate electronics

[BeerCat]

The problem isn't around knowledge, but that it requires equipment not expected to be in a normal home. A house can have tools available to fix large mechanical objects, but not extremely delicate electronics that require an electron scanning microscope to properly fix.

Best thread summary of the year (OK, so the year is still young...)

Seriously though, most houses will have a toolbox with sufficient "stuff" to at least make a stab at fixing mechanical parts (Hammer, screwdriver, awl, pliers). For electrical items, a bit more "stuff" is needed (soldering iron, multimeter), but still there are enough people interested that it can in the house.

Electronics, now is basically "when it breaks, it's trash" (although there are groups of people who are dedicated to restoring 1990s vintage computers - probably the last generation where a steady hand with a soldering iron could still work, and the motherboards weren't multi-layer)

Re: Delicate electronics

[ceoyoyo]

Horrors, some lumps of highly organized sand aren't user serviceable. My grandfather tossed rusty nails rather than smelting and recasting them.

Toasted discrete components can absolutely be replaced, although you might have to spend an hour learning to solder surface mount. Traces can be repaired. Fixing chips? The reason we use chips is because they're essentially free, unlike the discrete semiconductors they replace. To say nothing of the vacuum tubes. I haven't heard of many people repairing their vacuum tubes either.

Re:Delicate electronics

[geekoid]

"This is not something you can do on a weekend,"

why not?

Re:Delicate electronics

[zwarte piet]

But then again electron scanning microscopes have a way of killing whatever you put in them.

And get off my lawn!

[rumpledoll]

You damn kids. Harumph.

Except that now

[jpellino]

when you open the latest gadget, it's black boxes, nothing that you can see working, or replace without just desoldering a chip.

Re:Except that now

[RDW]

when you open the latest gadget, it's black boxes, nothing that you can see working, or replace without just desoldering a chip.

Prof George knows this of course:

"All of these things in our home do seem to work most of the time and because they don't break we just get used to them. They have almost become like Black Boxes which never die. And when they do we throw them away and buy something new."

The Daily Telegraph, knowing its readership (traditionally rather conservative and not exactly in the first flush of their youth) has chosen to emphasise the 'young people are lost generation' angle, which is reflected in the summary. But the message she's putting across in the Christmas Lectures is much more positive - the talks are intended for a general audience, especially kids, and she wants to get them excited about using everyday technology in creative ways, in the spirit of the Maker community.

Nice article here:

http://www.independent.co.uk/n...

If you have a UK IP address or VPN, the Lectures are available here:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/programme...

They're part of a series goes back to the time of Faraday, and has featured many eminent scientists (including several Nobel laureates). They've just been broadcast on national TV, as they have been since the 60s (I suspect quite a few of us who ended up being scientists in the UK got early inspiration from one or more of these lectures).

Oh, pleeez.

[Ralph Spoilsport]

I'm 56. I learned how to repair all kinds of crap, including electronics. Just last month the power switch on my lamp broke, so I bought a new one and fixed it in about an hour, which included the time it took to go to the corner hardware place to buy the replacement part. But that's rare these days, and as others have noted, much electronics is integrated circuitry. Occasionally, yeah, a transistor might die, or a a capacitor leaks or fries up, bu that's very uncommon, and many things have such tiny parts that even if you could repair it, you need special tools.

So when my laptop fries up I can't repair it with my Snap-On collection of wrenches. So, when something like a laptop fries, I go buy another one. I never buy new - I buy used ones for cheap. I'm not going to fix my laptop or microwave oven or telephone. To imply that I should is stupid.

If that kind of throw-away society is suboptimal for the professor, then the problem is the *throw-away society*, not some deskilling operation.

Re:Oh, pleeez.

[RealRaven2000]

or don't buy a laptop. build a PC instead. that is really one of the most simple things to repair due to its modular construction. The hardest thing you can do with a PC is to replace the boot drive (at least with windows) as your profile might be fucked up.

Re:Oh, pleeez.

[schlachter]

there's also a nice market for broken stuff these days via ebay...so often people don't fix stuff themselves but they allow others to do so.

you can sell your broken laptop, game system, phone, etc via ebay and recoup some value that can be used to buy a new one.

Most Of The Time

[Greyfox]

Gadget wanted an upgrade anyway and it failing is just a convenient excuse. My current TV's a good example. It's a 42" CRT I got with a tax refund back in '99. It's an early HDTV that doesn't have HDMI connectors. I'm just waiting for it to die for the excuse to upgrade to a larger 1080p flat panel. The only reason I haven't already is I'd want to do my entire media platform in the living room, which is really more effort than I care to put in until I have to.

Because it's true

[jamesl]

... claims that the under 40s expect everything to 'just work' ...

Because, in fact, most everything does "just work." And, the cost of the parts that need replacing makes repair uneconomical. And a new one does much more than the broken one ever did. And a new one uses less electricity. And who needs a crock pot anyway?

Consumerism...

[matbury]

...was supposed to be the US' economic saviour after WWII. It worked for a while but then grew into what we have now. Some people even believe we can save our environment through consumerism. To sum up some of the comments so far:

Consumer items are not built to last longer than their warranty so that consumers continue to buy more, more frequently.

Consumer items have become more delicate and more complicated over time and so easier to break and harder to fix.

Teaching and/or encouraging people to "make do and mend" is in direct contradiction to consumerism and is unlikely to be tolerated.

If too many people stop buying things, the economy will suffer.

The world, its chemistry, its physical nature, is changing dramatically because we measure and value our success according to how quickly we can dig stuff out of the ground and turn it into pollution.

bullshit.

[nblender]

Some things don't want to be fixed, like the Krupps toaster oven I have with the buttons that barely work... I fix all kinds of things so I figured the toaster oven would be a no-brainer. I tried to take it apart but it refused. It cut me, made me bleed, and then parts of it dented, and it still wouldn't come apart... It's a no-win... A new one is over $250. So we put up with it.

My son, however, takes big flat screen TVs from the electronics recyclers and tries to fix them. Usually it's a half dozen or so capacitors on the power supply card... Then he sells them locally. He also takes cheap garage sale android phones and has a good fix rate resoldering the micro-usb connectors...

Some kids are entrepreneurial.

Re:bullshit.

[geekoid]

There are a bunch of how to's on Fixya about that toaster oven.

Re:bullshit.

[nblender]

huh. Didn't know Fixya had become useful. Last time I looked, it appeared to have tantalizing information but when you clicked on a solution, it greyed out the screen and wanted money. So I've been filtering it out.

What about when devices discourage this?

[kentrel]

I accidentally dropped my kettle breaking the switch. I thought it would be easy to just unscrew the base, and reinsert it. Except it was screwed with what I later learned were tamper proof screws. I could buy the screwdriver online, but with the cost, postage, one off use, and three days without cups of tea I just bought a new one.

Re:What about when devices discourage this?

[geekoid]

Yes, but i you had the tool, You would be able to fix it next time as well.

And you can boil water in a Microwave.

Re:The devices have changed, not just the users

[Proudrooster]

I can agree with you and can verify this as someone is a maker. I decided that with the help you a YouTube video could change out the battery in an iPhone 4s. No problem, just watch the video then do the same. I totally miscalculated the fragility of the battery connector and pried it right off the board with solder traces and all. The new modern electronics are very, very fragile, especially the connectors.

So, I looked on Ebay for someone who specialized in the type damage repair that I had done and shipped the phone off to have a new connector soldered to the motherboard.

The second phone I repaired was a success now that I knew about the delicacies of the insides and how careful you had to be when wiggling off connectors.

We also recently used a toaster oven to reflow the solder on a failed HP motherboard, 384-degrees for 8 minutes and wow did it smell, but fixed the problem.

So yes, things can be fixed, but it is a whole new world of repair. New pentalobe screwdrivers, new spoogers and prytools, toaster ovens for reflowing solder, and of course guidance from YouTube on how to fix anything.

They are not supposed to

[Opportunist]

If not outright forbidden to do so. We live in a time where not only things get complicated enough that you'd need to study everything you want to fix for a while before you could even start finding out what's broken, more often than not some legalese bullshit is thrown between your legs where you may not even start working on something you allegedly bought. You see, back in my days we did something funny with the stuff we bought: We "owned" it. It meant that we could do whatever we damn well please with the stuff we bought. No such luck anymore, the more technology your gadgets contain and the more gimmicky it is, the higher the chance that you must not do anything but use it in whatever fashion the creator wants you to. No tinkering, no "fixing", no improving, and sure as HELL no talking about doing any of that!

Most technical appliances are actually defect at delivery. They refuse to do what you want, like, say, you buy a new game console and it doesn't play whatever you want it to play, despite the technical capability. You must now not go and fix the defect so it would do what you want it to do. In some countries it's even already an offense that could cost you a nasty fine or even land you in jail to fix your broken device. Let alone do it for others.

Re:They are not supposed to

[Proudrooster]

If you don't mind answering personal questions, 1) how old are you, and 2) what did you go to college for?

I would like to learn more about your viewpoint.

Re:They are not supposed to

[Proudrooster]

Sorry, put this in wrong post.. IGNORE.

Re:They are not supposed to

[geekoid]

"If not outright forbidden to do so. "
false.

"We live in a time where not only things get complicated enough that you'd need to study everything you want to fix for a while before you could even start finding out what's broken, "
false.

"more often than not some legalese bullshit is thrown between your legs where you may not even start working on something you allegedly bought. "
The legalize is only to protect the manufacturer. Do you think you should b ably to pop open you device, change thing and then get the manufacturer to help you or replace it?

"You see, back in my days we did something funny with the stuff we bought: We "owned" it. It meant that we could do whatever we damn well please with the stuff we bought. "
Still true.

"No such luck anymore, the more technology your gadgets contain and the more gimmicky it is, the higher the chance that you must not do anything but use it in whatever fashion the creator wants you to. No tinkering, no "fixing", no improving, and sure as HELL no talking about doing any of that!"
False.

"Most technical appliances are actually defect at delivery."
False.

". They refuse to do what you want, like, say, you buy a new game console and it doesn't play whatever you want it to play, despite the technical capability."
You want you electronics to do what they weren't designed for by default?

" You must now not go and fix the defect so it would do what you want it to do. In some countries it's even already an offense that could cost you a nasty fine or even land you in jail to fix your broken device. Let alone do it for others."
what countries?

You are utterly false and have jumped into the alarmist bullshit created by whiners.

You should be happy that you are completely wrong, but you won't be. You have self identified with a bias and crafted a false narrative from that, and as such you have an emotional investment into being right, inregardless* of the facts.

Stop it.

*Grammar joke. Sorry.

Re:They are not supposed to

[Opportunist]

It's easy to scream "you are wrong" without providing the correction. C'mon, either troll someone else or at least tell me where I'm wrong. I tend to take people less serious (i.e. not at all) if they just yell "NOOOOO!" without telling me why. Instead I keep telling my "wrong" story.

In short, if you want me to stop it, gimme a reason. I don't even want to respond to the few parts where you bothered to write anything but "false". I prefer my answers to have more than one bit. I prefer to have them some byte*.

*Geek joke. Sorry.

speak for yourself

[Charliemopps]

Speak for yourself asshole... I'm under 40 and can fix damned near anything. So can my kid. We just got done rebuilding a 50yr old tractor together.

Most people of any generation are useless meat puppets that seem to exist for the sole purpose of consuming celebrity gossip. We need them to blow their money on useless crap so technology and industry can advance and allow those of us with an IQ about 80 can have new tools to play with.

Re:speak for yourself

[Anonymous Coward]

Most people do not have tractors.

Re:speak for yourself

[pnutjam]

I think that this professor is also seeing a subset of the population that goes to school. Those that require a structured learning environment. They haven't learned how to fix stuff yet. Those of us who learn on our own aren't in her circle.

Re:speak for yourself

[geekoid]

People don't like the same thing as you, so you degrade them.

Is that how you feel like you matter? Give you some sort of illusion of control?
Cause that's what stupid people do.

Re:speak for yourself

[geekoid]

Now there, ladies an gentlemen, is a classic false dichotomy.

Re:speak for yourself

[pnutjam]

I think I may have created a false dichotomy paradox.

Circumnavigate Single Handed on a Boat

[anorlunda]

If you survive, you'll be a grand master fix it person.

Re:Circumnavigate Single Handed on a Boat

[geekoid]

I can Circumnavigate a boat. I mean, how hard can it be to walk around a boat? ;)

Basics are waning...or .. the new "relevant"

[See Attached]

I'd seen some young uns asking what time it was with a standard dial clock nearby. I learned that the new kids can't tell time from a clock with Dials, Digital only. This would at least result it now knowing clockwise , from counter clockwise. This seems disconcerting, Chirality starts with Right Hand, left hand... But... are we to only know what a Business Informatics tells us? Is symmetry part of the toolbox for a critical thinker these days? THats a tough one to lose. Took apart the washing machine to clean out the rubber boot/sump in the Frigidaire front loader. Eek... stinky work. No kids wanted to see.No more self sufficiency. Does anyone gage our success in WWII as being due to out-producing tools of War? Is the notion of a sovereign nation antiquated itself?

I'm not worried about it.

[mark_reh]

When the poo hits the fan and "civilization" collapses, they'll be good feed stock (as in dinner) for those of us who know how to actually do things.

Re:I'm not worried about it.

[PrimaryConsult]

If/when civilization collapses life is going to suck. Being one of the first to catch a stray bullet is probably preferable.

Re:I'm not worried about it.

[geekoid]

yeah, society been on the brink of collapse for 100 years.

Any day now...Yawn.

The fact that your plan is to eat other humans say a lot about you. None of it good.

Re:I'm not worried about it.

[Trax3001BBS]

When the poo hits the fan and "civilization" collapses, they'll be good feed stock (as in dinner) for those of us who know how to actually do things.

I've thought of this for quite awhile, if and when "civilization" collapses, garbage dumps could become the new gold mines. If you've ever walked a garbage dump as I did a few times as a kid, taking home others "discarded junk". you'd be more aware that a garbage dump is much more than paper, plastic and food scraps.

Note: I'd walk a portion of the dump when we took our trash to the dump itself, which was mostly in the fall and had tree limbs to dispose of.

Re:more like the declining world

[Proudrooster]

If you don't mind answering personal questions, 1) how old are you, and 2) what did you go to college for?

You can repair gadgets/appliances?

[Dereck1701]

Most gadgets/appliances these days are designed NOT to be repaired. Finding parts is often a royal nightmare, opening the gadget/appliance often results in damage and even if you can find the parts & get the appliance open its almost cheaper to buy a new one. A while back we had a washer's control board fry (likely a lightning strike), a few screws and unpluging a few connections was all that was needed to extract it from the machine. However after an exhaustive search we found a replacement board for it but it was over $400 for a washer you could buy $600 new. There are sometimes exceptions (I repaired a cracked screen on a $700 laptop for $125) but unfortunately these days more often than not its cheaper, safer, more time saving & easier to toss your broken gadget/appliance and get a new one.

Re:You can repair gadgets/appliances?

[blang]

I had a mysterious issue on my washing machine(20 year old GE top loader) , seemingly the dial did not work right, and often, the machine would get stuck on a part of the program, usually the spin cycle.

This was going on fro a couple of years. As a rule, I never would leave the house with the machine running, in case it would get stuck, and end up burning up the motor and start a fire.

A couple of months back I figured it all out. It is that stupid safety switch. The lid of the machine is just slightly bent , you can't even see it, but it is enough so that the safety switch is only barely connecting when the lid is closed.For now I just put something heavy on the lid, maybe I'll get around to fixing it permanently one day. I got the machine dirt cheap off craigslist. I bet the original owners would have kicked themselves if they knew what ailed their machine........

Yes and no

[davidwr]

Or: This is somewhat true now and it was somewhat true generations ago.

I don't know about Brits, but two generations ago most American kids didn't learn how to diagnose and repair mechanical equipment beyond an obvious simple thing like a broken bolt or using Elmer's Wood Glue and clamps to repair wood furniture. Yes, they still taught "shop class" and "home economics" but they weren't required like it was in the 50s or 60s.

Repairing a lawnmower engine or the non-integrated-circuit inside parts of a 1970s television or radio? Fuggetaboutit, that's what repair shops are for.

Today, most high school graduates either have or - by using Google - could figure out how to safely and effectively replace a light switch, repair a broken kitchen sink knob, replace (but not repair) a broken garbage disposal without calling a plumber, or assemble a "some assembly required" bookshelf.

But, like those who grew up in the 70s, only a few could handle more complex repairs.

Then of course there are things that fall in the "No Reassemble" category - once they are broken, you can't fix them without specialized tools and/or advance training. Integrated circuits and most things made out of thin glass like light bulbs fall into this category. I would also put surface-mount-technology computer boards in this category even though in theory you can repair these without specialized training or tools, in practical terms it's rarely cost-effective.

Don't just fix it --- Re-engineer it!

[Gim Tom]

I have often spent more time and money repairing something when it would have been much easier and cheaper to replace it. I am 67 and from the generation just after the Great Depression and I guess I learned that sort of frugality, or perhaps now false frugality from them. However, my late wife used to lament that I never just fixed something I would redesign or re-engineer it. And, yes I am an engineer.

2000?

[ArchieBunker]

At my job I've had to re-cap every LCD monitor we bought in 2006 and 2007.

Labor versus cost of parts

[jgotts]

If you have a nonworking computer in your car, you don't pay someone to spend hours looking at the circuit board. You get another one at the junk yard for $100 pulled off of a wrecked car, toss it in, and see if it works. You don't care why something doesn't work, just that it doesn't work.

Almost all electronics can be fixed, but it should only be done when it makes economic sense. Otherwise, the electronics should be disposed of properly, hopefully recycled.

If it doesn't make economic sense to fix an electronic device, then young people should be spending their time outside playing, or if they're older, getting more exercise.

We have something in our society called division of labor. Everybody depends upon everybody else to survive, but if we're all doing what we're best at then our leisure time is maximized. [Obviously that is how an ideal society would function and we have a long way to go.]

Re:Lack of Homeownership

[50000BTU_barbecue]

"hey've rented and ARE NOT ALLOWED TO FIX THINGS! If you're not allowed even to put holes in the wall"

LOL, you think it's better in a condo!?? You "own" that, but can't do squat!

false.

[WindBourne]

For example, it is trivial to fix nearly all smart phones and tablets. Upgrades are hard but googlebis working on that.

Re:false.

[ruir]

Is it? The new rage on compact/small systems is to glue everything.

Re:false.

[WindBourne]

yeah, still easy to do.

The number of idiots remains constant

[Theovon]

I'm using the word "idiot" as a hyperbole to refer to "people naturally disinterested in anything remotely techncal." Most people are this kind of idiot. Scientists, engineers, lawyers, doctors, architects, writers, and others who think abstractly are RARE.

Perpetually, many who ARE interested in technical things lament that those people seem to have missed out on the right opportunities or education, which is a sad, sad thing. The truth is that MOST people who are naturally inclined to care about technical things will learn technical things. Sure, there's the occasional person who is otherwise missed, but mostly, those efforts to educate disinterested people in technical things result only in incompetent, disinterested people CLAIMING to know technical things. Force someone disinterested to memorize a bunch of technical facts, and all they'll ever know is a bunch of disconnected facts. This does not lead to competence. Really, they still don't care and pretty much don't get it and would be better off, for everyone's sake, doing something else. You can't MAKE someone think abstractly; it's either present as a talent, or it's not.

That does not imply that everyone with abstract thinking ability will be competent. You also have to have passion for something. That's rare too.

Re:The number of idiots remains constant

[geekoid]

"and others who think abstractly are RARE."
but they don't have to be rare, it's just training.

"You can't MAKE someone think abstractly; it's either present as a talent, or it's not."
False. It is not talent at all, anyone can think abstractly, they just need to want to.

Re:Smartphone

[bugs2squash]

You can get replacement parts for iphones, I just replaced the charging connector on my wife's phone 4s, I had to buy a special toolkit (fancy security screws) but the instructions were straightforward and easy to follow and the actual part (an integrated assembly in itself) was large enough to handle.

To be fair, grandpa is unlikely to have faced these issues since it's advances in manufacturing that have made these highly integrated devices affordable and put them into so many hands. If he had been faced with the task of repairing, say, a Rolex watch then he would have been woefully under skilled too, but he wasn't because Rolexs are the preserve of the wealthy few.

It is the taxation issue, really

[Trachman]

It is not the labor costs that have skyrocketed. It is the taxes that are being collected and they creeped in and their effect has a ripple inflationary impact where due to the taxation and regulation certain things just do not make sense anymore. I know it is not a popular speech, and I always wondered why nobody wants to talk it.

And i am not talking abou the taxes that are taken from my paycheck directly, which is 43%, in my case (fed, state, city). There are less direct taxes on the property and capital gains, which I also pay.

Now there are true indirect taxes which represent the taxes which you are paying when you get services and goods from others, that are raising the prices of services of the people who are providing them, for they also need to pay taxes on the services provided or value created, or buy services that are mandated and recognized as taxes for they are unavoidable (aka Obamacare). This price inflation has a ripple effect and is further passed through economy.

In my situation (and I do realize that there are individuals who are different), Simple mathematical calculation, Lim f (individual tax rate) = overal taxation burden, shows that, again this is my case, approximately 85% of my income is given back as taxes, which is overall taxation burden. This trend can be repeated for the rest of the economy which is driven and fueled by governmental taxation, waste and spending, and government will never be as efficient as private individual, not even close.

That is the reason why it is cheaper to have to buy something manufactured by robots and bio-robots, rather than pay someone a salary and 80% taxes on top of it.

Have you noticed that in less taxed communities (some erroneously call them less developed societies), where taxation is virtualy non-existent, people do take care of their things and do fix them.

Re:It is the taxation issue, really

[Cyberax]

Dude, taxes are way down since 50-s or even 60-s. Stop smoking that untaxed crack cocaine.

Re:It is the taxation issue, really

[NicBenjamin]

They don't talk about this issue because you've got the economics wrong.

The government cannot force people to pay more then they want for labor in a market system. It is a free market. If I refuse to pay more then $10 an hour, and I know the government is gonna tax me 10%, and then take another 20% from the laborer, I will end up paying roughly $9, and the worker will take home about $7. The problem caused for me by the government's tax rate isn't that it increases my cost directly, it's that it's probably harder for me to get workers for $7 an hour take-home then it would be for $10.

OTOH, that $3 taxes is probably being spent on something. And if that something is something he was spending money on before anyway then his demand for take-home pay went down in roughly the amount of the tax.

BTW, actual reality disagrees with you on the efficiency of government spending in some sectors. Low health costs, for example, are strongly correlated with the level of government involvement in the system. The UK's NHS, in which private medical practices are illegal is lower cost then Canadian Medicare (in which private payment for medical services is virtually unheard of) is lower cost then us.

There are a lot of reasons for this. Most of them go back to basic economics. When you're sick your demand for health care is virtually infinite, therefore you'll pay anything, therefore the price a doctor can get is incredibly high. If there's some government body dictating what he can charge, or paying him itself, the cost can be kept relatively low by decree. If there isn't he can hire a bunch of six-figure business consultants to help him convince patients that his costs are 20% higher every year.

Re:It is the taxation issue, really

[Trachman]

I am economist by trade and by education. There is an entire schoold of econmics, called Austrian economics (one of the bright scholars was , which is standing behind. The caveat, is that Austrian economics thinks that informed individual will make a better choice than somebody else.

If you have no chance to hear about it, I am recommeding: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A...

People in UK and anywhere else where something is socialized, for example medicine, have an illusion, a false sense of security that they "got covered".

In reality, if something is provided free, or low cost, demand will be very high. Thus it is rationed. I have a friend in EU, who needs heart valve transplant and was told that the wait is 4 month. He will pay the money that he does not have to get "expedited"service. Government does have a role to play and that role is to help innovation, efficiency, transparency, simplicity, absence of the middlemen to be a driving force.

Re:It is the taxation issue, really

[NicBenjamin]

So you're arguing you're an economist, but you're also arguing that the supply and demand curves don't work? Seriously, taxes cannot increase the cost you are willing to pay for labor. They can affect the willingness of laborers to work, but that's a much more minimal effect then you were claiming to illustrate in your original post.

Moreover you've just contradicted yourself. An efficient system to produce widgets has no slack in it. It produces exactly as many widgets as needed every day. This means that if you show up with a rush order for widgets, an efficient system will not give them to you at normal cost. The ones in production at the moment, and the next few batches are all already sold. The efficient system can rush you extras, but it will charge you extra because a) it can and efficiant businesses are supposed to charge more when they can, and b) it incurs real extra costs (ie: overtime to produce new widgets, or breaking contracts with current buyers to give you those widgets) in delivering to you. It would be extremely inefficient for the system to have widgets just waiting for you, because some days nobody would show up with a last-minute order.

Which means that if your goal is efficiency in health spending, the system that forced somebody to pay extra for a procedure now rather then wait a couple months is the one you prefer.

Which in turn means that, according to the evidence you presented yourself, the government-run system is more efficient then the free market.

Re:It is the taxation issue, really

[ruir]

Oh tell me about it. I could easily have a 2nd job on my own, but starting doing the math, and factoring the taxes, at the end of the day I may very well spend more money than I am able to earn.

Re:It is the taxation issue, really

[Actually, I do RTFA]

factoring the taxes, at the end of the day I may very well spend more money than I am able to earn.

You know, your costs for your job are tax-deductible, right?

Re:It is the taxation issue, really

[Actually, I do RTFA]

I'm confused. You're saying there is an issue with a finite resource needing to be allotted. And that, it is horrible that a free market is not used to allot it. And the horrible consequence of not using a free market is that it doesn't use the free market? Instead, it uses, first-come-first-serve? (Presumably with some kind of need based line jumping) And I'm supposed to react to this news with... what?

Also, have you been sick in the US. It's a 4-month wait here too. Only you wait 4 months and ti costs you your house.

Re:It is the taxation issue, really

[ruir]

The problem is that the main costs are hiking up my percentile of IRS of my main job; having to hire an accountant, paying VAT and social security as a liberal worker. In essence, more bureaucracy and taxes to avoid people having second jobs and not steal jobs from others.

Re:It is the taxation issue, really

[Actually, I do RTFA]

Are you talking about starting a side-business? Because that's the only reason I can see an accountant or VAT mattering.

But I do think that keeping people from getting second jobs (while being able to survive on one job) would be a nice consequence

Re:It is the taxation issue, really

[ruir]

Exactly, a side job. However, there are other sides to the story. This measures are there to keep people on their toes and restrict the competition and entry of the market of businesses that would affect revenue of establishment and their cronies.

Re:It is the taxation issue, really

[Actually, I do RTFA]

So basically, you would start a side business, but the business-y parts of it (accounting) would make it unprofitable?

I'm not sure where or why taxes come into it.

Re:It is the taxation issue, really

[ruir]

Liberal professionals here have draconian taxes compared to regular employees. And then if you already have your day job, the additional income will also will make the bracket where you are on you daily job go up + the aforementioned additional taxes. It is not the accounting. Either you (already) have a steady flux of customers, or you will lose money. For the occasional gig, better forget about it.

Re:It is the taxation issue, really

[Actually, I do RTFA]

Okay, I don't know what country you are in, or what a "liberal professional" is.

I do know, in the US, that income is not taxed differently based on the type of labor. And I know that, in the US, additional income will also will make the bracket where you are on you daily job go up is false, because a higher rate doesn't retroactively apply to your dollars earned below the cutoff.

Now, the business may not be worth pursuing because of its payoff on a per-hour basis. But, again, in the US, taxes only lower that payoff, and have no impact on the money you earn at your day job.

Re:It is the taxation issue, really

[ruir]

Luck you then, because I am not US based. At the end of the year, all earnings get combined, and I will have to pay retroactively the taxes for my day job at a higher bracket than my employer paid for me.

Re:It is the taxation issue, really

[Actually, I do RTFA]

Where are you based? Because I don't know anywhere where taxes apply to the entirety of your income. They are usually written like 0% on your first X income. Y% on the Z between X and the next cutoff, etc.

Just fixed my washing machine

[Kjella]

To be honest, my first thought was this: Age of machine + cost of repair vs cost of new machine and found it wasn't worth getting a repairman out here, probably once to figure out what's wrong and once to fix and it wasn't worth the struggle to deliver 70kg to a repair shop and return it afterwards. I almost ordered a new one but then I figured, what the hell I could maybe manage to swap a broken transmission belt so I unscrewed the back lid. Turns out it had just jumped off from years of spinning, didn't even need a replacement part. Simple mechanical devices where a filter is clogged or the machinery needs oil is worth a look. Flaky electronics on the other hand, forget about it. It's mostly one big integrated lump of circuits that either works or it doesn't. And small, cheap or old appliances just aren't worth the effort as fixing cheap plastic or a bad solder might only last a short while longer as where there's one fault there's probably more poor QA.

People used to mend socks because cloth was really expensive and involved a lot of manual processes to make. Today I can get a year's supply from an hour's wages so why bother? Yeah I'm less self-sufficient but let's face it without the grocery store I'd starve so if it comes down to the basics it's not all that essential. In fact mostly useless if the electricity is dead. So if having those skills don't do me much good today and don't do me much good in the post-zombie apocalypse so why would I do it? It'd be a hobby. Nothing wrong with having hobbies, but they're a leisure activity that you do if you feel like it. For me that sounds a lot like maintenance and repair, which I hate in general. I hate housekeeping and I hate changing broken light bulbs just to maintain the status quo. Making broken shit work(ish) sounds like work, not fun.

Some new devices are unrepairable

[MpVpRb]

Regardless of your skill, some devices are designed to be throwaway

Some are assembled with glue or welding
Some are completely encased in plastic by potting or overmolding
Some components, like ICs in BGA packaging, cannot easily be replaced with common tools
Many manufacturers don't offer repair parts..at any price
Sometimes, manufacturers grind off the identifying information on common parts to make repair and reverse engineering more difficult
Schematics and repair manuals are often completely unavailable, or very expensive
Many products require special tools that are unavailable at any price
Even if you have the skill to build your own tools, software interface documentation is rarely available, and often the interface is obfuscated
I have been building stuff, fixing stuff and reverse engineering stuff for many, many years
Yes, I agree that fixing stuff is a valuable skill that should be taught and not allowed to die
But, much of the fault lies with the manufacturers who aggressively resist any attempt by users to gain control over their devices

This practice should be illegal, we should have the legal right to fix stuff we own if we have the knowledge to do so

Why are we letting this to happen to us?

[Anonymous Coward]

I mean, why should we buy phones that we can't change the battery in the first place?

It's like buying a knife that we can not sharpen ourselves, or a bicycle that we can't change a flat tire

The whole idea is so ridiculous but yet HUNDREDS OF MILLIONS OF MORONS lined up to buy stuffs that they are defective in its design !

Re:Why are we letting this to happen to us?

[houstonbofh]

I mean, why should we buy phones that we can't change the battery in the first place?

Because people get distracted by the new shiny, and forgot to look...

Re:Why are we letting this to happen to us?

[Immerman]

Or are the kind of people who take their bike to the shop to have the tire replaced for them anyway, so why would they care how difficult it is without the proper tools?

Re:Why are we letting this to happen to us?

[brantondaveperson]

Now be fair - normally the phone craps out before the battery dies anyway :)

Re:Why are we letting this to happen to us?

[JudgeFurious]

Honest question here. I'm an iPhone user (on my third one starting with a 3, then a 4, and now a 6). I've never had any reason to replace the battery in my iPhone. Is mine an atypical experience? I ask because my wife is an Android user (gives me constant shit about the price of my phone vs. the price of her phone) and even though she has always bought phones with removable batteries she has never had to change one either. Now years and years ago I had to replace a battery on a Sony Ericsson T-610 but that was "The beforetimes, in the long long Ago". Seriously, do people run into this issue a lot? Maybe I've just been lucky?

Re:Why are we letting this to happen to us?

[houstonbofh]

Depends on how long you keep your phone. My phone is going on 6 years now and really could use a third battery. My tablet is 2 years old and is just beginning to show signs of needing one now.

Re:Why are we letting this to happen to us?

[JudgeFurious]

Hmmm, interesting. We change our phones out probably around every two years. Sometimes we go a little longer. I think my wife had her last Samsung for almost 4 years and I skipped all the iterations of the iPhone 5 but more often than not I just tend to skip a generation (Had a 3, skipped the 3GS, got a 4 near the middle of its cycle and skipped the 4S and all the 5's. My 4 really was fine even when I traded it in to AT&T. Only reason I upgraded really was that they gave me a $300 credit for an aging phone. That almost paid for the iPhone 6 that replaced it.

My uncle says that about people under 60

[dbIII]

My uncle says that about people under 60 and he's mostly right.
One example is that even tradespeople are acting this way. The amount of waste from building sites is staggering. While previously offcuts were saved for when short bits were needed, or were joined together, now the materials are much cheaper than the time cost of sorting or joining.

Make something worth fixing

[istartedi]

Trouble is, a lot of today's appliances aren't worth fixing. I junked a blender recently. Problem? plastic coupling between the motor and the blades. What's that you say? Machine a new one out of metal? OK maybe... if the motor didn't already spark and smell like ozone when making one smoothie. No, crushing ice was not pushing this thing. It was specifically advertised as being OK with that. It was just. A piece. Of crap. Now a BlendTec, that'd be worth servicing... but even the consumer version is $400.00. Many of us can't afford that, or we rationalize the 5-year disposable $40 blender as potentially cheaper even though trashing things is somehow less satisfying. There is no pride in ownership when there's no pride in manufacturing. This is by design. The companies don't want people fixing things. Everybody knows it.

Maybe that's why the younger generation is more interested in making. If companies won't put pride in manufacturing, maybe individuals will.

Re:Smartphone

[gweihir]

That is BS. Selecting some rarer case as the representative example just shows you either have no clue or are intentionally misrepresenting things.

Re:The devices have changed, not just the users

[gweihir]

You always needed to know what you are doing in order to repair things. The critical skill is actually wanting to know and to learn. And it is easier than ever, with information right there like at ifixit and other sites and in blogs by people that did it.

Re:It's not that I don't want to

[gweihir]

And you think previous generations had their tools just magically materialize?

Re:Ending is better than mending!

[gweihir]

More than ever. The younger generations are setting themselves up to make the same tired old mistakes again.

Double edged sword

[zemned3000]

Like an awful lot of people I know, I actually enjoy understanding how things work and solving problems. When I was a teenager, I used to repair things for money. On an average day, I could repair 10 TVs and a few video recorders without reaching a sweat. I can honestly say that the 5 years worth of Saturdays I spent doing this to help me though Secondary and Tertiary education was awesome fun. It made me enough money to buy my first car and PC, which lead to even more tinkering!

I suspect that the way we live our lives means that very few people who are technical enough to understand how to repair things, be it a gadget or your neighbours 20 year old car can rationalise the cost in time it takes to do so. I would venture that this has a knock on effect, as those skills don't get communicated to the kids who have been press ganged into action with a wrench, welder or the cold end of a soldering iron.

It is a crying shame to see so much useful equipment in the local land fill site or metal yard. Having said that, I have seen the rather unpleasant underbelly of tinkering. Before the UK laws were tightened up,anyone could effect home wiring repairs; what this lead to was an unholy mass of cruddy electrical wiring in homes up and down the land. I have also seen repair work on cars that is more hiding the full horrors of the structural and mechanical degradation than actually resolving it. During my days as a repair boy, I also saw plainly deadly repairs that people had undertaken with bits of tin foil and good intentions. Obviously, this is not all due to tinkerers, but a fair share of the blame can be levelled here.

I would say that with common sense, tinkering is a joyful endeavour that is its own reward. At least until EVERYONE finds out that you are the guy to go and talk to...

As for the next generation, I'm hopeful that the resurgence in hackable electronics like Arduino and newly accessible technologies like 3D printing will bring a renaissance in how we interact with technology.

Re:Double edged sword

[zemned3000]

I think the system in the UK is functional as it stands nowadays. You are able to do your own electrical work if you want, but it needs signing off for a number of larger jobs. My dad built entire properties from scratch for a living, he was a little annoyed at the legislation, but saw the logic in it too (as do I). As with most new legislation, there is often a little time required for an equilibrium to be obtained. I would suggest that the changes to Part P in April 2013 removed some unnecessary red tape. I wouldn't be surprised to see some more resolutions in the future.

A more insidious aspect to all this is what certification does to the labour market and whether a self sustaining old boys network is being established in certain trades (After all, who decides on the apprentices they are going to take on to get that valuable experience?). But that is a different flame altogether.

The good old days are now...

[sdinfoserv]

Well: corporate manufacturing bids out components to attain the cheapest by a fractional cent costs – often from 3rd world suppliers using sub-par components final goods are specifically designed to wear out requiring replacement – Labor costs of actually fixing broken things exceeds the cost of just buying new one cheap ass ones. Consumers perpetuate the problem by refusing to pay more for reliable items. This results in the growth of Walmart and the decline of high quality merchants outside of boutique locations or niche markets Hell, look at the GM V6 – the home garage mechanic can’t even replace the spark plugs because the motor needs to rocket for plug access. Now – combine all these trends and this twit author is going to somehow blame people who grew up in a post disposable world? I’ll bet his house is filled with new cheap disposable shit too. So, rather than spending your weekend screwing with some $40 vacuum that broke, throw it, buy a new one and spend some quality time with your kids. Go fishing, teach them something, go have fun - They'll be better off and so will you.

Re:"In my day"

[PPH]

Get ff my lawn, kid. In my day, we didn't need any stinkin' microscopes. We'd start pulling vacuum tubes and testing them.

Can't fix or better not to?

[GrpA]

In the current world, it often costs more to repair something than to replace it. The only reason people will avoid attempting repairs is because replacement is more economical. There seem to be far more people familiar with repairing stuff now than ever before, especially with so many decent guides on the internet.

GrpA

It all works so well though

[EmperorOfCanada]

When I was a kid most of the stuff one would buy was crap, if it did work it didn't do much and more often than not it either didn't work or didn't work for long.

If I were to bike any great distance there was a good chance that I would need to at least fiddle my bike a bit or maybe even fix it. Definitely I had to regularly adjust and fix my bike. But my nieces and nephews bikes just go on and on working just fine. So in that extremely infrequent occasion when it needs some work they just have the bike shop do it (which would have cost too much in my childhood).

My first computer which was a VIC-20 didn't even come with storage when I got it. Thus any program I wanted I typed in, played with, and when the computer was turned off it vanished. Eventually I got a tape drive and was a marvel. The floppy drive for my C64 was completely over the top.

Then with the first PC we all had to fiddle with the config.sys to squeeze that extra few K that was needed for some program or a sound driver needed for another.

So all these experiences have turned me into somewhat of a technological hill-billy. I am perfectly happy to resolder a failed headphone jack in my laptop or replace a capacitor in a failed monitor. I will make the programs I want using languages ranging from Python to C++ and have zero problems creating fantastically strong replacement parts with just invented composites based on such products as JB Weld. My electric razor had a great cutting mechanism but the battery just wasn't good enough. So rebuilt it using a pair of 18650s and a heat sync to help defend the now slightly overworked DC motor. It isn't a proper Christmas nativity if the star isn't a green laser pointer controlled by an arduino and some 9g servos.

So in my world fixing things, improving things, salvaging things, and making things better are all an overlapping concept. I rented a car this weekend and it was a pile of crap GMC with OnStar. It was all I could do to stop myself from going under the hood to rip the onstar clean out of whatever sewage pit they kept it in and just reinstall it moments before returning the car.

Most of the people around me though stare at me funny when I rip apart an old all-in-one printer in 5 minutes so that I can extract those excellent 10mm rods. Or when I can take a faulty iPhone apart in a restaurant after the person complains of only ever getting 1 signal dot anymore and just wiggling the antenna wire returning them to 5 dot nirvana. As I am simply not taken aback by faulty gadgets or machines, yet I see many people use a cracked screen as an excuse for a phone upgrade.

But this is not just a younger generation thing. I think in the generation before me it was just as bad. They simply didn't have the tools to fix things like their reel to reel tape machines and things broke so fast that it pretty much wasn't worth the effort to fix them. A typical 1970s car that came with any features usually lost those features one by one very quickly. I can remember many cars from my early childhood where the power windows were dead, heater was dead, brakes made funny noises, the car backfired, the car wouldn't shut down when the key was turned off, etc. And these were cars that were only a few years old. But the problem wasn't something that a little fiddle could fix. These were fundamental problems such as all the wiring being wildly susceptible to corrosion; resulting in the car being beyond any reasonable repair. This too resulted in a generation of people who were largely incapable of fixing things.

But lastly it is almost certainly economics. In the 70s things were changing so quickly that in many cases it was better not to fix it but to buy the new and improved version. Now it might not be worth the time and money to fix things. I have collected a bunch of nice tools and skills for fixing things. I have various glues and epoxies. I have nearly every conceivable small screwdriver. I have soldering stations. But I also have so many years of experience

Re:It all works so well though

[geekoid]

"So in that extremely infrequent occasion when it needs some work they just have the bike shop do it "

You seem to not be doing well as an uncle.

"In the 70s things were changing so quickly that in many cases it was better not to fix it but to buy the new and improved version. "
everyone says that about some decade, and they are always wrong. 70s? BW and Color TV's where pretty simple to fix, As were radios. Any computer work and you were putting it together yourself.

There has always been people who fix and people who replace.
The fixing might change from replacing a diode, to replacing a board but it's still fixing.

Red Dwarf.

[TapeCutter]

My toaster has an IQ of 4000, it should be smart enough to fix itself.

Re:Right conclusion but wrong reason.

[MightyYar]

Same goes for clocks, watches, and other such stuff as many of the gears and such are replaced with circuit boards.

Yup. Our vacuum cleaner went on the fritz. I thought, vacuum cleaners are very simple - I can handle this. Cracked it open and... big fancy circuit board! This model had a "bag full" sensor and two speeds, so I guess they put it on a board. At this point I Googled and found that the problem is common and that the board is essentially toast. Fortunately the same Google search showed that Hoover still does a 7 year warranty so I slapped it back together and got it fixed.

But yeah, a simple vacuum is now complicated. Next time I'll buy something with only an off-on switch.

Kinda - kinda not

[MBGMorden]

What I've found is that there are a lot of people who right off hand know how to do things these days. HOWEVER, for those actually wiling to try, the internet (and mostly Youtube) has generated a ton of reference material to learn how to do all sorts of things.

Replace an element on my water heater? Youtubed it.
Replace the fan motor for the AC in my car? Youtube.
Install an LGA771 processor in a LGA775 motherboard? Youtube.
Tap an existing power outlet to wire in an overhead light and switch to my garage? Youtube.

As I said - most people don't just know how to do as much as they used to - but if you have any desire whatsoever to LEARN it's a great time to be alive.

Re:Kinda - kinda not

[geekoid]

So you have learned to follow instructions instead of figuring things out. That's not learning.
Well done.

1970 car

[deodiaus2]

My friend had a car in the 1970's having 2 spark plugs which could not be replaced without lifting the engine. I had a 1974 Subaru with a broken tail lens. I found the lens for a 1973, but holes were in different spot. When I redrilled new holes and put the old lends in, the lens cracked. This was designed to fail.

Re:1970 car

[geekoid]

Sounds like you failed. I don't think it's Subaru's fault you don't understand how to put holes in plastic.
What make and model is that mythical car that needs to engine to be lifted to take out 2 spark plug wires?

Not just cars

[witherstaff]

It's sadly not just cars. I think every designer should have to prototype a product and then have to try to field repair it before they put things into production. I have done furnace repairs where to change a simple hot surface ignitor or to clean a flame sense you have to dismantle half the furnace. Typically these are held in with one screw to keep in place. Why some furnaces are made so bad I have no idea. Anyone with half a brain should think 'hey, what parts might need changing?' and make it easy to get to.

Re:Not just cars

[Aighearach]

Why blame the engineer? It may be that they originally designed it to be easier, and then they told to make this part smaller, that part smaller, that part bigger, and leave X, Y and Z the same. It might not be a clueless engineer at all, but a clueless customer to buy the sucky model years and vehicle shapes (rounded or squashed front) that create the most design restrictions.

As for who designs a furnace that way... a company that also sells service contracts, that is who. It has "always" been that way. The engineers have always hated it, too. But forcing them to turn some screws all weekend suffering in Dilbert Hell isn't going to help.

Speaking of LEDs

[MillionthMonkey]

I had one of those LED light bulbs and it stopped working one day. Since I'm 44, I was able to fix it with a soldering iron.

Re:Speaking of LEDs

[zwarte piet]

You're lucky. Would you have been 39 you would not have been able to do so.

Re:Lack of Homeownership

[PrimaryConsult]

If you think about it, "renting" is a pretty good deal if you count your deposit as lost. You don't have to clean when you leave, you can make as many holes as you damn well please, and if you stay there for a good number of years the additional "per month" cost of that deposit versus the "improvements" you've made, you come out ahead compared to home ownership.

And nobody makes a good buggy whip anymore.

[Brannon]

Obviously this means that society is in decline.

Exclusively polling people over 50 each generation over the last several thousand years would lead us to believe that society has been in steady decline during that entire period of time--which obviously contradicts the trends of every objective measure of human quality of life & productivity. This itself is the single most compelling evidence I've seen that people get stupider as they age.

As someone pushing 40 I can say without equivocation that I've seen no evidence which suggests a decline in the intellectual capacity, work ethic, or general productivity in younger generations--I'm consistently impressed by most young people I meet and in particular by how well prepared they are for the world they live in, which isn't the same as the world 50 years ago so I'm not sure why we're surprised that some new skills are emphasized while others have atrophied.

O tempores o mores? Partially!

[drolli]

Me: Physicist who is very happy to be born 1975, and see the best of both worlds, hardware and software. I can use all devices you find in any electronics lab and used >10 programming languages.

There are several factors contributing to his impression. The time since we finally understood electromagnetism and built amplifiers/switches was very homogeneous in terms of technological development. We uses AM/FM for nearly hundred years - basically you can use the very first tube radios to receive the music from your fm transmitter you use to transmit to the radio in your car (hopefully only where it's legal!). So that means that for hundred years, you designed an antenna, a filter, maybe an oscillator and a mixer, another amplifier. In the LF-World it was even simpler. Give me an oscilloscope and a probe, and i find where the amplifier is broken. You could start learning this as soon as you learned how to read (i did).. The devices were expensive (buying a television was a big decision back when i was a child, and would reduce the monthly savings of a family below zero, or if you had a low wage you had actually to save to buy it. The same is true for audio equipment and computers (the computers i buy actually get cheaper each time). This meant that every device actually had a circuit diagram contained. You open the radio from 1920 (i found one), wonder what is broken, an find a circuit diagram inside. Our television actually had a circuit diagram with checkpoints and illustrated waveforms which you should see on the oscilloscope, and a list of parts/modules which typically would distort the signal. Yes, that was for free inside an envelope stuck inside the back cover of the device. So instead of inventing special screws, glueing things together to save the last 0.01cent during manufacturing, and only giving service manual to "selected partners" the manufacturers actually helped you maintain the value of the device. We had that television for 20 years, and it was repaired one time.

So what happens now?

a) There is a big change in technology, which is now stabilized yet, so there is not equivalent of the "standard electronics workbench", which costed $5000. There may be a JTAG standard for actually diagnosing devices, but no standard connector but usually a few spots on the PCB, undocumented. And no manufactuer actually tells you and promises you anything about it.

b) manufacturers donâ(TM)t like to give out access to software, or even diagnosis tools. Partially because of legal reasons, I suppose.

c) I make the observation that bricking by damaged firmware is a substantial fraction of the devices which really fail hard (in my case 2x embedded controllers in thinkpads and one google chromecast, and one time some embedded firmware in an ACER Laptop). One should say that statefulness is a curse if you try to fix things.

d) Taken aside a bluetooth headset and an MP3 player which were fried by a bad USB power supply, i did not observe any personal hardware failing. The only computers which i saw the hardware failing of at work were a few intel Boards with bad capacitors

e) The discrete analog part of the circuits get smaller and smaller.

So up to now this professor was pampered in EE with people who all did analog electronics as a hobby, a very homogenous group who all learned the same technologies. Now he is confronted whit people to whom this knowledge is not valuable because of the world they live in. But they are probably better in programming and fixing software, potentially even hacking the firmware of devices. So on modern devices they may actually fix more than he could. Sure, he may be able to re-solder the broken connector, but instead of asking that his students can follow him from day 1 in using the oscilloscope, he should accept that the mix of students has changed to more software expertes, as have the device functions changes software-defined functions; the EE course anyway should contain a lab-course which give you the basic knowledge. People who change the

Re:O tempores o mores? Partially!

[geekoid]

" (Believe me, once a rf circuit trace is damaged, it's hard to give it back the right impedance by hand)."
No that it matter to any significant degree in 99.99% of anything being fixed. It's pretty much hidden in the Dampening.

There isn't any electronic device that can't be fixed.

Re:The devices have changed, not just the users

[gweihir]

Not true. Mess up a motor repair, for example, and the thing may well self-destruct once you power it up again. Or getting eyes on the problem is easy, but re-assembly is not. Same for smaller things.

And no one over 40 has a working computer...

[AnontheDestroyer]

Because they're all ate up with viruses. Their iPhones and Android devices have more bugs than ours, too, for some reason. We learn how to fix things, they're just different.

Re:And no one over 40 has a working computer...

[geekoid]

50. No one over 50.

Ironic

[der_joachim]

I find it ironic that the generation that started pushing cheap, unmaintainable gadgets to the consumer 'to save costs' now complain that we do not fix our own stuff anymore.

Fuck you, babyboomers.

Huh.

[argStyopa]

If the "older generation" can fix stuff and the younger one can't, then why am I constantly fixing my parents' computer when it goes wonky?

Oh, wait, you're talking about a world filled with mechanical gadgets where "fixing" is the gross replacement of some broken part. Personally, I live in a world chock-full of pre-assembled crap that's not built to ever BE repaired, just replaced along it's planned obsolescence track.

Re:Right conclusion but wrong reason.

[goose-incarnated]

Same goes for clocks, watches, and other such stuff as many of the gears and such are replaced with circuit boards.

Yup. Our vacuum cleaner went on the fritz. I thought, vacuum cleaners are very simple - I can handle this. Cracked it open and... big fancy circuit board! This model had a "bag full" sensor and two speeds, so I guess they put it on a board. At this point I Googled and found that the problem is common and that the board is essentially toast. Fortunately the same Google search showed that Hoover still does a 7 year warranty so I slapped it back together and got it fixed.

But yeah, a simple vacuum is now complicated. Next time I'll buy something with only an off-on switch.

Why not throw the board away and connect a high-voltage switch to power? I did this to a broken vacuum cleaner once - simply threw away the board and wired a switch to directly switch the motor. Put in two switches in and you could have two power levels.

Of course, you don't get all the value-add that the electronics mainboard gave you, like "bag-full" indicator, etc. But really, just empty the thing each time you're done vacuuming, which is probably what you're doing anyway.

Nintendo taught me everything I need to know.

[torklugnutz]

If it can't be fixed by rebooting it or by blowing onto it or some combination of the two, it should probably be replaced. Or cleaned. Or returned for a free rental.

Capitalism like Communism

[Anonymous Coward]

The trick to doing (even the smallest size) SMD with a normal iron is solder wick. It will apply flux and suck up excess solder leaving a clean, factory looking, board behind.

WTF is the point?

[Anonymous Coward]

My wife had a kitchen appliance fail recently. It was an electric orange-juicer. I diagnosed the problem, determine the motor was burned up or the plunger switch failed(which allowed AC to flow through what was probably a Chinese electric motor from Alibaba in minimum order quantities of 100).

Either explaination required me to find a manufacturer part number/wait on hold for 30 minutes to argue my way past 2 levels of talking customer support scripts/rewind an electric motor with magnet wire I would have to order from AlliedEelectric/Mouser/Digikey(while counting the turns)/Crack open an ultrasonically welded plastic case on a plunger switch to sand the contacts/jumper the switch & drive 30 minutes to the nearest Radioshack or Homedepot so I could by a replacement cord which would allow me to bypass the devices intended functionality in order to leavy it in a 100% duty cycle condition(possibly resulting in overheating related failure which was the most probable explaination for failure in the first place knowing my wifes enthusiasm for home squeezed orange juice).

Just like I would have done for my employer if they had the same problem: my determination was the expected value of an attempted repair would exceed the cost of simply buying a fucking replacement. Assuming the knowledge that made this determination possible is worth $10 USD/hour, you couldn't pay me to spend 2 hours on this problem with 100% guaruntee of success. I didn't spend the 10 minutes it would take to disassemble the plastic injection molded case because there were security screws in use and moving every 2 years to follow the jobs means I've given up keeping an inventory of security bits/harbour freight tools on hand because there is no economical way to amortize out their purchase in labor cost savings when you relocate to follow better job opportunities every 24 months.

I threw the thing in the garbage(didn't even feel bad about it) because I knew any further investment beyond diagnosis would result in FURTHER unnecessary disappointment for my wife(with the expected value: she probably isn't in the mood for sex that night).

Being a "Real Man of Genius" TM I bought a replacement via Amazon Prime a couple weeks later for her b-day demonstrating:
A: I cared about her emotional condition enough to remember the feeling of loss she felt at no longer having a juicer machine
B: I remembered what her birthday was
C: I'm financially capable of spending $24.99 on KitchainAid plastic injection molded bullshit on Amazon Prime

As a result:
A: I saved myself 60-120 minutes poking it with a screwdriver/possibly injuring myself on broken PVC plastic shards/burning myself with electricity
B: We were able to go to the movies instead of getting in an argument about an unfinished project messying up the kitchen table
C: I got laid on her B-day
D: I saved my self-esteem the blow of not being able to economically preserve value of a gadget which was engineering with a mean-time to failure of ~5 hours of operation. I felt better about myself by letting it go and getting the fuck over the $20 loss.

Anyone want to tell me I made the wrong call?
I don't suppose you are overpaying on your mortgage for the shop space necessary for you to make bubble-gum/duct tape "HACKS" which extend the usable life of failed $100 devices by 25-100%? Do these clever hacks occur more than 2x time a month? How much time do you spend on them? How many $1000s of dollars do you have in unused specialized tooling collecting dust other than the 2-3x hand tools which allowed you to save that money? Is the answer greater than the total amount of labor cost adjusted capital savings you made by being a DIY home improvement hero?

Home Depot/Lowes shouldn't even fucking exist. Just pay the specialists to come in and leverage their economies of scale to save you time-money(a new unit expressing the reality that time has monetary value). Core competency? WTF is that?

Sincerely,
"Jack-of-all-trades"/Handyman/Professional Technician/Machinist who is tired of Depression era thinking wasting human potential in the age of Amazon Prime

Re:Right conclusion but wrong reason.

[Z00L00K]

Works until the manufacturer decides that the motor shall be a low voltage motor and the board a primary switched voltage regulator.

Probably the power supply

[DeathElk]

*Always* check the voltage rails first. Schematics may help but aren't always necessary. Look for swollen capacitors or black legs/PCB on or near the switching transistors(they're probably mounted to a heatsink). There is no reason a $2.00 part should bring down a $2000 television set.

Re:Probably the power supply

[geekoid]

"There is no reason a $2.00 part should bring down a $2000 television set."
are you... stupid?

The owner cord cost about 2 buck, and if I remove it it will bring down the TV. Are you saying that shouldn't happen? Are you saying when the NPN blows, some how the power should be magically rerouted? Perhaps through the rear deflector?

Consequences

[gnasher719]

Nobody has discussed so far what the consequences should be.

If you create a device or gadget or whatever, and you know that people are not going to repair it, then all the parts inside should be designed to break around the same time. Because any part that breaks earlier than the others decreases the useful life of the device and therefore its value, while any part that has still a long working life when the device is thrown away is just a waste of money.

Re:Right conclusion but wrong reason.

[MightyYar]

That is exactly what would have happened if the thing was not under warranty. I may have even tried to put a switch in somewhere. :)

The bag is an actual bag, but I spent the first 35 years of my life without an indicator. It's pretty easy to tell when it isn't picking up anymore. The sensor is just a differential pressure gauge - same thing as "stuff not going up the tube anymore".

warranties

[mdmenzel]

One issue that I think has been missed here is how common (and restrictive) manufacturers warranties are. For many things that are electrical or mechanical, if you attempt even the most rudimentary repair, you void the warranty. Not very helpful if you muck up the repair.

Re:warranties

[geekoid]

As has always been the case. At no time would you eb able to screw around with a product, and then make the manufacturer pay for your mistake.

The real issue here is that there is no issue.

His lawn...

[juanfgs]

did he make any comment about his lawn and how should young people should keep off from it?

Depends

[Dareth]

On my Toyota you can twist the socket base and slip in a new bulb with just a bit of cursing at the engineer who didn't give you that extra half inch of slack that would have made it much easier. On other cars you almost have to remove the front bumper assembly to get the lights out. Shops charge accordingly and make good money off labor on what "should" be an easy fix.

Unable to repair machines left by ancestors

[DickBreath]

VINA: War, thousands of centuries ago.
PIKE: That's why it's so barren up there?
VINA; The planet's only now becoming able to support life again.
PIKE: So the Talosians who came underground found life limited here and they concentrated on developing their mental power.
VINA: But they found it's a trap, like a narcotic, because when
( dreams | facebook | twitter | dancing with the stars | texting and driving )
become more important than reality, you give up travel, building, creating. You even forget how to repair the machines left behind by your ancestors. You just sit, living and reliving other lives left behind in the thought record*.

Re:Unable to repair machines left by ancestors

[DickBreath]

* thought record = modern video games

Re:Unable to repair machines left by ancestors

[geekoid]

Wow, that was pretty weak. You don't understand modern culture, or what the were talking about in that episode.

And old people are a lost generation

[geekoid]

because they can't fix software.

Your point?

I'm definitely over 40

[kilodelta]

And I know how to fix things. When my LCD TV just gave a blinking red power light I knew for example the power supply had shit the bed. So I took it out, found the offending capacitors (Yeah, plural! ) and determined the time to de-solder, order, replace and re-install made it cheaper to just buy a whole new power supply for $50, install and TV has been running well ever since.

Can also do electrical and plumbing stuff too.

Re:Right conclusion but wrong reason.

[kilodelta]

In my case I'd have figured out what the board actually did and crafted my own, better solution.

Churn butter at home

[Dareth]

Get a plastic container with a tight fitting lid. Get some heavy whipping cream. A small carton will do. Put the cream in the container, close the lid (yes I had to add this step), and then shake the hell out of it for a while. If you have multiple people pass it around and shake until it feels solid. What you get is butter. Add a little salt if you like and spread on some crackers. Good science project and pretty tasty butter too.

Re:Right conclusion but wrong reason.

[MightyYar]

While that sounds like fun, I frankly have too much on my plate already. I probably would have hard-wired the motor and called it a day if the warranty was up. If I felt like a run to the store I might put a switch on it :)

Re:Then Prof George demanded everyone leave his la

[serviscope_minor]

Huh a professor of necromancy and voodoo er I mean microwave and RF engineering.

Hostile Design and DRM

[allquixotic]

Many devices containing software are intentionally designed to be hard to fix/repair. With the exception of open source applications running on a PC, or open source operating systems on said PCs, an increasing number of appliances and "gadgets" have software that is completely locked down. If the software out of the factory is not 100% perfect and there is some kind of a defect, the consumer's only option in most cases is to buy a different device.

Worse, since the software is the same between each unit produced, the consumer could go through the RMA process dozens of times and still have the problem. If the manufacturer does not acknowledge and fix the problem, the user is SOL.

This is largely a consequence of consumers not truly owning the devices they buy anymore, due to companies valuing their "IP" over (digitally-infused) consumer appliance serviceability. Try fixing a shoddy driver on an Android smartphone from a major US carrier (90% of them are locked down) and let me know how you make out, with "brief" engineering knowledge. Ditto for the faulty ECU in your car, or the faulty temperature regulator in your fridge, or...

The only situations where the OP may have a valid point are with things that have not yet been designed, in mainstream models at least, with significant digital components. For example, if your toilet starts leaking, the knowledge and technique to repair this low-tech item probably hasn't changed in at least 40 or 50 years. But these examples are quickly vanishing, as even toilets are starting to have digital components. Usually, you are *lucky* if your manufacturer provides you with some kind of instructions on how to buy and replace the complete electronics package in something like a dishwasher or a washing machine. If you are attempting to repair it without actually chucking the whole component and installing a new one, good luck -- provided you're not an Electrical or Computer Engineer.

Programming is the key

[RawBit]

Products are way too sophisticated nowadays for them to be easily fixed. But if we teach our kids programming, then they will have their mechanical/electronic abilities very well developed. Solving problems virtually via software is similar to solving mechanical issues physically.

why?

[gzuckier]

in an economy which depends on huge multinationals making and selling you new disposable junk all the time, and a recession based on a reduction in demand for all this junk, to repair your old stuff is unpatriotic, antisocial, and subversive. go out and spend.

Internet, Youtube etc great source of repair info

[kenj123]

The internet is providing a real renaissance for repair info for me. I have a sailboat and learned quite a bit about working with epoxy on various internet sites. on my house there is wood exposed in a few places. I've been treating them with epoxy and they are holding up quite well now. At work we have quite a few printers, I told purchasing don't buy any more printers unless they have unjamming instructions are on youtube or somewhere else online. my brother has a farm. he's a pretty good manager and excellent repairer. of 150 farms in one study his income over cost was the best rated because he has so few repair bills. One time he needed to replace cogs on a his older combine. new from mfg would have been 500ea. he found on the internet the right ones (for 50$) but the shaft was wrong. between him and a friend they cut the shaft part out and swapped them. Saved a couple grand on the upgrade without too much extra work. My general rule of thumb, i will repair my self if i can extend the life of the product a few years if the cost is cheap even if the item looks weird and was obviously repaired. I will improvise a repair job as long as its safe and i can do for 20% or less of the cost of the correct repair method. if my improvised repair doesn't work I'm not out too much money.

Can be fixed not same as current gen

[WillAffleckUW]

Look, I could fix my HDTV that burnt out. It's probably only the HDMI interface module.

Or I could spend a tiny bit more and get the same size HDTV now.

Capiche?

The problem is in designing things

[ToddInSF]

with little to no concern about their end of life.

When you design things for one single use, and design them to be thrown away when they can no longer be used for that one single use, you are simply transferring the real cost of that item, the expense of disposing of that item, to the public.

It's a new century and we still design items and package items wastefully, as single use throw-away objects.

From Styrofoam meat platters to yogurt cups to ground coffee containers, even the packaging is mostly unregulated.

Why not incentivise designing consumer goods so that they are multi-function, multi-use ?

In the future, every object you can buy, needs to be disassembleable, and useful for other purposes.

Attempting to recycle things that were never designed to even be recyclable is simply not enough. Not only do all consumer goods need to be easily sortable for recycling, they need to be designed in the first place to be useable for other purposes.

If young people today don't understand how even the most basic devices work, much less how things are made, we have only our culture and society to blame.

Manufacturing and designing things to be cheap and disposable carries a hidden cost to society, while making some corporations a great deal of money via hidden public subsidies for those products.

Let's talk about how greed destroys everything, and how it's creating a class of people that can't do anything and don't know anything.

Now in India

[Mister Null]

In Deli a man's fridge wouldn't work. The problem was tracked down to a transformer that was non-functional, As he said "Here in the States we would just throw the whole thing away but there he found someone who would rewind the transformer with new wire. Problem Solved. So it is not just a problem of how old you are but also where you live.

Re:Emancipation all round

[HornWumpus]

Same as the old generation.

Young people are stupid

[uninformedLuddite]

I recently helped a young couple who's car had a flat battery get their car started. They were totally despondent and she was in tears. The car was a manual and pointing down a hill and they had never even heard the term clutch or bump start. Kids huh!

I'm not so sure...

[kackle]

Points never gave me grief, ever. (Is that because I was lucky enough to first learn about them using a dwell meter?) I have replaced more electronic ignition modules and their coil packs than I can remember (dozens).

Of the first 12 failures on my latest car, 11 were electronic engine problems (versus mechanical), half of which, killed the engine without warning while driving.

Re:I'm not so sure...

[Harlequin80]

You must live somewhere dry. Water and electrical points systems have left me stranded a couple of times. (Admittedly this has always been on a motorcycle)

Re:Lack of Homeownership

[Trax3001BBS]

"hey've rented and ARE NOT ALLOWED TO FIX THINGS! If you're not allowed even to put holes in the wall"

LOL, you think it's better in a condo!?? You "own" that, but can't do squat!

So you purchase a house without reading the covenants, which could disallow just about anything.

On the other hand I've gone against our neighborhood covenant by planting a tree, yet not a word was/has been said, and it's huge now.

Its in you or it's not

[lsatenstein]

From the age of 5, I had already built a home telegraph. I had bell wire (house wire for doorbells), I got doorbell push buttons, lights, and made a partyline circuit. I learned morse code, at a very few words per minute.

By age 8 or 9, I was fixing tube radios. Usually it was a dead tube, or a bad electrolytic capacitor.
By 11, I was building kits from Heath and Eico. My preferred were from the latter.
By 15, I was fixing all appliances, changing tap washers, and finding out about watch and clock mechanisms.
By 17, I was Mr watch repair for Sears, I was charging bargain prices. And I did all the other stuff too. I was into hi-fi, Vinyl longplay records and the finest of turntables (rec-o-cut, Garrad), I had my vtvm, my sweep generator, and Heath Oscilloscope.
By 19, I was a carburator expert. I had all the tools for changing spark plugs, rotating tires, and knew the V8 engine design by heart.
We were learning sponges in those days.

Today, kids are whiz kids an smartphone apps. They know not about epicycloidal gearing, "angles and draw" for watch anchors and escape wheels, "watch beating" incabloc, jeweling, carburators, plug-changing, welding, and so much more.

I left that for a masters degree in math, but I have never stopped playing and loving it. My thoughts were always impressed with the watch mechanism engineers who could work with near microscopic sized parts and movements.

Ahh them were the fun days. It was an enjoyment to do all that I did as a hobby. Today, I maintain my home and garden, and look at my grandkids. I am disappointed at how little they know.

Knowledge is power

[giveen1]

Its kinda fun, finding all these broken gadgets on eBay, buying them cheap, doing a bit of repair or just even reflowing the solder and then turning around and selling something.

Not the young uns fault

[MoarSauce123]

The reason is that there really is nothing left to fix in a 2 cm microchip that contains everything. You cannot even replace just that chip because it is surface mounted and has pins so small that any soldering iron would destroy the board before getting the chip out. Also, the vast majority of manufacturers of any gadget no longer offer parts or do so only for a very limited time. And if they do, they charge for a handful of parts more than a new device would cost. And that all assumes that you can get your hand on service manuals. Just look how much they charge for service manuals for cars if they can be bought by consumers in the first place. There is still some 'tech' left that did not change or shrink into tiny packages. As MBGMorden writes, for those cases YouTube is golden. Using YT I learned how to fix my stairs, water heater, bath tub faucet, vinyl siding and a few more things I no longer recall.

Disconnect from self-sufficiency

[AllergicToMilk]

I think the problem isn't so much that this generation doesn't know how to tinker. That seems to be a common complaint with every generation. I think the real problem is that, with each generation, we get further and further from the life skills that sustain us. Farming, blacksmithing, animal husbandry, basic mechanics, basic electronics. All are quite accessible with a little training and practice but there is no reason or drive to know the skills. Ask a kid under 10 where the meat in his hamburger comes from. The kid won't know and his parents will yell at you for scaring their precious. So much of this situation is attributable to our restricting the manner and freedom with which children play and also due to technology and infrastructure having advanced so far that our disconnect from self-sufficiency is nearly complete.

Not true at all

[blang]

At the same time they can fix fewer gadgets, as well as more gadgets.
And another reason why we often don't WANT to fix something is because it is too expensive to fix.

Point in case: In the old days, if your radio or TV stopped working, you would take it to a Radio or TV repair shop, and they would fix it for much less than it cost to buy a new one. People would go to TV and Radio repair vocational schools. Now Radios hardly exist, and if the TV breaks after the warranty time, it is cheaper to toss it out and buy a a new one rather than finding someone who can repair it.

I am mostly clueless about electronics, but when my old monitor broke, I was determined to fix it. Googled and found videos on youtube showing me how to go abnout it. Learned that there are things called capacitors in the power supply, and my particular model contained a batch of capacitors that were often failing. When they swell up, they are probably toast. Bought soldering iron and other useful tools. Ordered the spare capacitors, and managed to get the monitor working. The monitor was worth maybe $30 tops, and I probably spent 5 hours in total on the repair and $100 on tools. Could have bought one twice as big, lighter and faster, with modern connectors for a little over $100. Later I was however able to fix my neighbor's laser printer by following same method, looking for bulging capacitors to replace, and I tried a couple more repair project where I was not successful. I have earned the cost of the tools at least. However, I _should_ have just tossed the monitor, if I had acted in an optimal manner. If it had been 1990, I would not have learned how to do this, as there was no youtube to teach me. Such a monitor would have been worth $500 and it would have been worth it to pay a repairman $100 to fix it.

It is not just a generational ting. It is a wealth thing. In poor countries (compared to tech today, UK and a lot of Europe could be considered "poor" in 50's compared to now. Less than 1 car per household, no TV, maybe a radio, working class jobs, hand me down clothes were the norm. So it woudl make sense to repair things and learn how to repair things. Now youth spend small fortunes on brand name clothes. And for the cost of a 1950's TV or radio (in 1950's dollars), you can now buy a ton of advanced electronics, and most of the gadgets are not SUPPOSED to be repaired. If there is no repair shop for a gadget, even in a medium to large city, how are kids supposed to get the idea that they should repair it themselves. Broken items are just taken in return and replaced with new product, the bad ones shipped to china for refurbishing, and the resold. Also, a gadget made today is only supposed to last a few years. My family's black and white TV purchased in 1970, was our only TV until we upgraded to a color TV in mid-80's. I'd like to see someone still running their windows 98 PC today. Or their Nokia analog cell phones? Products today are mostly obsolete by the time they need to be repaired. You can't blame that on the kids.

In poor countries, where they can afford few gadgets, there are plenty of cell; phone repair shops. 20+ year old cars are repaired. Parts are machined. People repair their bikes, using only hammers, nails and pliers as tools. It cost under $1 to get bikes repaired by professional bike repairmen slightly more skilled in the use of hammer, nails and pliers, but in a poor country, $1 is not something you waste on things you can do yourself.

SO the professor can rest his worries. There are plenty of people that fix whatever they can fix. Some in rich countries tinker and repair for fun, but in poor countries they still do it because they can't afford not to. If you add a few more dimensions to the picture, such as economy, history and geography, nothing really has changed with the kids.

Re:He's wrong

[McFly777]

Funny thing is that when I read the original electrical tape splice comment, I assumed that he had soldered the wires before taping; probably because that is how I would have done it.

If you want a scary wiring story, and that about the previous generation who is supposedly so good at fixing things, I will tell you about the wiring in my in-laws' house. The hall light (3-way switched) stopped working. My father-in-law had installed the 3-ways about 50 years ago shortly after the house was built, because the contractor didn't have a switch at both ends of the hall. When I opened the switch box, I found that he had done the whole job by only twisting the wires together. (In case you haven't done the job, 3 way switches require you to join wire-to-wire at various points; not everything goes to a switch or other hardware with terminals.) At least he put some tape over the wires (which had long since lost it tackiness). Some corrosion between the loosely connected wires had interrupted the circuit.

As to using wire nuts in general, they work great in static situations like house-wiring (inside the boxes). Where they don't work as well is in dynamic situations like an appliance cord. Even in the static situation the nuts should be taped over as well, although you can usually get away without. (I'm not sure what code requires now.*) More important is to be sure you have the correct size nut for the number and type of wires being connected. Besides "biting" into the wire, the nut should apply enough compression to the set of wires to insure good contact.

*Disclaimer: Dammit Jim! I'm an engineer, not a licensed house electrician. So, I am speaking from the standpoint of what works, not what is legal WRT electrical code.

Butter

[McFly777]

Well, churning your own butter is easy. Just accidentally forget about the cream you were beating in your mixer. Done that before.

I'll do you one better. Although I have started with heavy whipping cream to make butter (on purpose), I have also gotten it accidently. I inadvertently purchased some non-homogenized organic milk (it was on sale). The cream had separated to the top of the jug, and the small bit of shaking on the drive from the store to home caused it to solidify into butter. Surprise!

I poured out the milk into a pitcher, cut the jug open to remove the solidified cream, and kneaded a bit of salt into it to make a very usable half-cup of butter.

Any brand/product suggestions for repairability?

[Paul Fernhout]

Parts also become unavailable. We just had to replace an entire LG washer (about five or so years old) because could not get a new mainboard that had burned out.