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Descent Into Linux (Part Two)
I should have known it wouldn't be so easy, because one of the laws of technology is that it never is. There's rarely such a thing as getting a computer, turning it on, and having everything work right out of the box. It's never happened to me, not with any of my dozen-or-so computers, not even with my beloved Macs.
Still, I was excited. I cleared the dining room table and carefully opened the smaller box. My wife had warned that the delivery service had dropped the box on the porch. "Ooops," the driver had said, laughing, as the box tumbled off the dolly.
When I pulled the computer tower out of the box, its case came off right in my hands. The guts of the computer, rattling around inside, spilled out all over the floor - the modem, the motherboard, six or seven screws, and the ribbons I later learned should be attached to the hard drive. The metal shelf on which the hard drive was resting was bent by at least two inches. The outer case was so damaged it didn't fit over the computer. It looked like the drop on the porch wasn't the only one. Maybe the term Open Source was to be taken literally.
I'd rarely seen the insides of a computer before, and was mesmerized even as I watched the parts of my box scatter across the floor. My yellow lab Stanley scarfed up the motherboard and paraded around with it proudly for a minute or two, as if it were a downed duck or quail, until I pried it out of his slobbery mouth.
I could have just sent the whole thing back to IIS, I suppose, but it wasn't their fault, and I had come too far to wait another few weeks. I was edging towards obsession. I stuffed everything back into the box and drove to the nearest CompUSA. Only extreme desperation drove me there.
To me, CompUSA is computer Hell in its literal incarnation. Everything about the place is designed to insult, alienate or abandon customers. There are few salespeople, and they rarely know a thing about computers. Most try to duck the hapless, overwhelmed, increasingly frustrated customers who get shunted from pointless line to pointless line, and wind up begging total strangers for help. The chain isn't satisfied to make buying computers and equipment a brutal experience; playing for what you buy is just as hard. CompUSA works to ensure that there are always too few cashiers, and they're apparently required to be hostile and mono-syllabic. I'm happier buying a used car from the sleaziest dealer than buying a toner cartridge at CompUSA.
Until I went to one of the Fry's electronics stores during a trip to California, I didn't know that computer salespeople even could be helpful.
The service manager of the Tech Support department at this particular CompUSA store had always been happy to take tons of my money for my various Mac crises and repairs, but he took one look at the carnage I pulled out of the box and practically tossed me out of the store. "No way I'm touching that," he said.
"How come?" I thought PC's were supposed to be easier to repair than Macs. "It's got Linux on it," I offered hopefully.
He shrugged. "I don't know Linux. I don't want to work on it." I hadn't even told him about the dog slobber.
By now, the plastic front had come off as well, and the motherboard and modem were rattling at the bottom of the machine. People in the long line behind me were picking up screws as they bounced off the floor and handing them to me.
"Do you know any other place I could take it?" I asked.
"Nope," he said.
Discouraged, I thought I'd have to send my Linux box back even before I turned it on, but before I retreated, I remembered that I was out of computer paper. I stuffed the mess into a shopping cart and rolled it towards the paper aisle.
At which point, I spotted a CompUSA employee in a red shirt moving rapidly down one of the aisles, a middle-aged geek with a beard and glasses. (I don't know how, but I have some metaphysical chemistry with geeks. They know me; I know them.) Without even being asked, he came over to see what strange object I had in my cart. No one at CompUSA has ever been helpful when I asked, let alone when I didn't. I was amazed.
"What you got there?" he asked, fascinated, in the way any true geek would be at the sight of an exposed computer. I told him what had happened, and he shook his head. "They could fix this. I've seen this before. Shipping problems."
Looking around, he motioned me over to the farthest aisle where his boss couldn't see. In a minute, we were both down on the floor, where he had pulled the Pentium from its cardboard box and spread it and all its parts on the floor. He did know Linux. Soon, two or three geeks had gathered around, watching, kibbitzing, offering advice.
"Let's see," he said, "let me slip the board in'the modem goes here?" He picked up the screws and attached the monitor connection, then bent the casing with his hands, all the while looking around warily for his boss. It was a good board, he said, and good modem too. "He'd kill me if he was me doing this," he said. I said I understood; from what I'd seen at CompUSA, helping customers was probably a firing offense.
"You better have this looked at it," he said. "This is really a mess, but nothing much appears to be broken. And it's good stuff." The plastic on -off switch snapped off in my hands - "maybe a touch of Crazy Glue," he said. The housing for the hard drive needed to be straightened, he said.
I was stunned at the guy's helpfulness, and grateful. He slapped me on the back, and we shook hands. I nearly hugged him.
I put the more-or-less reassembled machine back into the box, and drove it to a small PC repair place. The tech there, a geek poster boy in Airwalks with the skin color of a fish, seemed happy to take it in; he'd clearly seen worse. He told he'd once gotten a motherboard a dog had actually chewed.
Oddly, none of this has discouraged me. I've been spending the last few months traveling around the country for a book, interviewing geeks. They live for crises like this, and I can hear their voices in my head: all problems are solvable, be confident and patient, figure it out, stick with it.
I e-mailed one of the most resourceful, Jesse Dailey, in Chicago and told him what happened. A young man of carefully chosen words who rarely expresses emotion, he was moved, deeply sympathetic. "It's a bit like having a sick pet in a way," he counseled. "Gotta keep your hopes up and keep praying for it."
So, I'm still descending the road to Linux, stalled a bit, humbled, bloody but unbowed. Still using Microsoft Word and my Mac. Waiting for my machine to get fixed, I've started on "Running Linux." I like it. It's clear from the preface that this is a book - and project - for me.
"We invite you to dive in, enjoy yourself, be the first on your block to know what it means to tweak your dot clocks and rdev your kernel image," write the authors.
Linux, they say, is something of a rebellion against the world of commercial software, although an unplanned and disorganized kind of insurrection.
"You must expect the unexpected," write Welsh and Kaufman. "You must always yield to the driving force behind free software: that being the desire - no, need - to develop and maintain the most succinct and powerful system anywhere. To put it in a nutshell: you must hack."
Linux, they say, is something of a rebellion against the world of commercial software, although an unplanned and disorganized kind of insurrection.
"You must expect the unexpected," write Welsh and Kaufman. "You must always yield to the driving force behind free software: that being the desire - no, need - to develop and maintain the most succinct and powerful system anywhere. To put it in a nutshell: you must hack."
So okay, I'm ready for the unexpected and ready -- past ready -- to hack.
Alex, the PC tech fixing the box, just called to say putting the Linux box back together again was possible. A tech from IIS had called him to help him run through the system. He said I needed a new case, a new on/off switch and some new screws. It would cost $173. But he thought the modem and board were fine. He thought it would work. I didn't ask about the dog slobber.
And oh, he asked, what was Linux like? He'd heard a lot about it.
I don't know, I said. I've never seen it.
you can e-mail me at jonkatz@bellatlantic.net
> Also, he's the best writer on Slashdot.
haha, my ass he is, I dont think using the word "geek" 90 times per article qualifies as good.
Get over it, you're a geek and so are lots of other people, doesn't mean you have to write about it every damn day like it's some new amazing thing.
- he only thinks he knows what a motherboard is, and the dog really grabbed something else
- the dog did indeed grab something, and he thought it'd play better if he said it was the motherboard
I'm leaning toward the second option, if I must accept that the dog was involved at all. He's certainly writing for what he considers to be a "general audience," and in computing journalism this usually means that someone with an imperfect grasp of a subject (the author) tries to "simplify" things so that the audience can understand. They've probably heard the word "motherboard" before.Think of all of those one-liner recapitulations of the year 2000 problem: that's this technique in action, and it's why the mainstream press is utterly useless at explaining technical issues. The author barely understands them, having been given the assignment yesterday, and has a target audience that's clueless. Stir in an "expert" who can't simplify effectively, either, and you've got your article and your pull-quote ready to go.
The solution is specialization. You don't see coverage of opera on Freshmeat, do you?
Mind the Gap
For I all I may disagree with the Pournelle's politics, and for all that I'm not so keen on his fiction, I'd take him any day over Jon Katz.
I think the common thread from both efforts, by the way, is that RedHat really need to take a look at their install manuals if they want to live up to the hype they're getting.
Actually, that's not what I meant. I don't begrudge anyone buying a preconfigured Linux box, and in fact I hope a lot more people do so. I might get picky with the fact that someone purporting to be investigating Linux misses out the first step, but we already know that it's difficult for new users to install, and I'm more interested in how difficult it is for new users to use.
On the other hand, I do find him patronising of people who help him, and I think this "geeks" thing is just a hook he uses - Jon Katz, talker-to-geeks.
Look at the way he treated the poor guy who helped him at CompUSA - he could have been a hero. Instead he ended up being portrayed as a nervous, dysfunctional "geek" who still managed to make his employer look bad.
And he still hasn't got Linux working. For the insight we've had, he might as well have been explaining the trials of ordering a pizza.
I was going to write more, but it's been said already ... This post (titled culture: a flame) is as good a summary as I've seen of the view I share. I think we're being taken for a ride; I hope I'm pleasantly surprised, but I doubt it.
Having said which, I still would be genuinely interested in a long time Mac user's first view of Linux - there was someone else posted earlier who fell into that category. Maybe the soapbox should be ripped from under Mr Katz and let someone with serious intentions have a turn.
(by the way - thanks for not descending into name calling in this discussion - it's increasingly a rarity on this site to be able to get away with reasoned criticism)
Okay, Katz doesn't know a whole lot about computers.. So what? He's written tons of stuff about computers and the people that use them -- and managed to stay moderately accurate.
Every experience that he has here will let him understand more, and help him as a technology writer. I hope he'll manage to get a Linux box working, because then he'll finally be able to do something with his computer...
Maybe he'll find Perl to be fascinating, or find the multi-user paradigm to be nothing less than extremely useful. Maybe Gnome will tell him there's a better way. There are any number of things in Linux that he could one day wonder about and say, "How did I ever live without that?"
There was a day sometime in the past when each of us didn't know anything about computers. I hope everyone can try to remember back to that time, and decide to help Jon a little more. Please, guys, don't bicker. A lot of Slashdotters like reading his articles, even if some don't. If you don't want to read his stuff, don't make (too many) comments about it.
Anyway...
Good grief. After reading all the flames I'm very dissapointed in the slashdot community. You people seem to be amazingly intolerent and hard-headed.
When Katz first got here and posted some "geek culture" spiels, he was accused of being a poser. Well, to remedy that, he's gone out and bought a new computer for the primary purpose of proving himself to the slashdot crowd. As this article shows, he has had some perfectly legitimate problems (broken hardware) just getting the damn thing running, and, unlike some of us, I suspect he has other things to do with his life than the necessary fiddling to get Linux going right now. Not all of us have assembled our own computers and know hardware inside and out, but that doesn't mean we are lesser people. Running Linux is not the only that makes one a geek, in fact geekiness is not at all restricted to the world of the computer. Katz is a liberal arts geek. When he talks about geek culture he gets it remarkably right, he understands the mindset, even though he isn't a technical whiz.
The title to this article may be a bit badly named, but Katz is trying to explain why he isn't quite there yet. Probably, "if it isn't one thing it's another" sort of problems have been dogging him (no pun intended) ever since he decided to set out on this mission to come closer to understanding the Linux community. People just don't seem to want to cut him some slack. This is disapointing and I honestly hope that it doesn't discourage him. He says he has a thick skin for flames, but slashdot these days is like walking over a bed of hot coals.
Anyway, people really need to lighten up. Contrary to popular opinion, as long as there is a Linux community of active developers and interested users that is helpful instead of flaming to new users, we have no reason to reject the poor huddled masses seeking the freedom of our favorite free operating system. Yes, Jon Katz is interested in Linux for it's social and political aspects, rather than it's technical ones, but weren't those the reasons that prompted RMS to start the GNU project? The technical execelence of free software was, to Stallman, a "side effect" of the intened goal - software you could share with your neighbor, and a community of programmers where you help each other rather than necesitating competition. A rather noble goal, and one that has, to a large extent, succeeded.
Anyway, please give Katz a break. I'm sure he's trying his hardest, and you can't really blame someone for that, can you?
The only time that I've ever seen the inside of CompUSA was when I was looking for an audio cable for my CD-ROM to sound card. I found one, but didn't buy it. They were asking $22.
something clever
Gods! It's... it's... it's.... JERRY POURNELLE!
Except without the computer knowledge...
...and he flipped up the fan and removed the daughtercard, and took out the MB to add the ram. QED. Nice machine, too. ;) now, with some of the 'Chinese puzzle box' Performas I could understand, but a 9500?
Of course, if it takes him a half an hour to do that, he's a dreadful luser
Want a complementary (not compl_I_mentary, compl_e_mentary- I am a writer _too_ ;) ) set of articles? ;) ;) )! (astonishment) ;) :)
I'm getting tired enough of watching Katz to consider trying his job myself instead of just complaining. Qualifications? I'm a Mac user, always more techie about it than Jon, and two weekends ago I spent 18 hours downloading linuxppc- ever since I have been setting it up and getting more and more out of it.
That means 'fighting with it merrily for late night after late night'
I started with KDE, and I might be the first person (or among the first) to run Window Maker on linuxppc. My inexperienced but tenacious onslaught on this migration to a truly personal linux box has been fraught with curiosity, shock, frustration and triumph. You can run those Afterstep animated backgrounds on WindowMaker! (shock) they are nothing more than a screensaver in the root window! You can use the resources of a mac graphics weenie to make tiles and killer backgrounds that are great on linux! www.airwindows.com/art/index.html (triumph. enjoy) You can discover that KDE does let you point and drool your way to dialup PPP access, but it _fakes_ configuring etc/resolve.conf and gets rid of its configurations afterward, leaving you hosed when you try to make wmppp work as a total newbie! (outrage) You can get really aggravated with the demented random keybindings and discover that MacOS is infinitely more supportive of keyboard shortcuts, and that many X apps are sorely lacking in keyboard shortcuts (emacs does _not_ count
Yep, you heard right: two weeks and I'm already running Window Maker, have a smattering of themes I made myself (currently I still need to macweenie more tiling patterns to do titlebars and menu backgrounds), and last night I even got wmppp to fully work and never have to invoke kppp again! I also crashed under netscape and kppp and had to boot to manually fsck the disks, and for the very first time I figured out to go 'fsck dev/sdb5' and it worked! Nobody told me and the first time that'd happened, I didn't clue quickly enough, and simply reinstalled everything, figuring it wouldn't hurt to walk through all that again...
Anyway, here I am- having a morning MacOS session (hey, I don't _run_ a server, and you can boot to MacOS for games and stuff, no harm in it) but I could just as well be posting from linuxppc and writing essays in vi in a transparent aterm (another hack I figured out through stubborn persistence). *wave* hey Rob! CmdrTaco! If you must have a Mac-fellow essaying about Linux, would you care to have one who can actually sit down and run it? I'm still a newbie- hell, I'm having trouble setting up any account other than root, so I daren't IRC to #slashdot yet- but I'd humbly suggest my experience could be every bit as valid as Jon's. I am _using_ linux. I don't think it rules the universe- but there are sure some things it does that'd be tough to do anywhere else, and I look forward to exploring that.
And, again: here, I saw fit to take pretty much my entire MacOS personal texture and pattern collection, and my desktop pictures (all mine, original works) and put them up on my site for Linux people, approximately quadrupling the natural-media tile quotient I've seen out there
www.airwindows.com/art/index.html
Because it's good to share with friends. Also because I'm curious to see if slashdot will exceed the hammering I got from macintouch.com when my essay on Microsoft's ClearType and hand-antialiased fonts got mentioned.
So, Rob, care for a different perspective on newbie issues and why to run Linux?
I take it you ran 'top', then? I myself found it most delightful (though it's a bit frustrating what with the huge lists of processes- I must get rid of some of those silly daemons I'm not using :) ) ./configure make make install :)
This would mean you're running Linux, and probably the window that got stuck was some kind of KDE. Keep poking about in xterms- and do _not_ get hung up on RPMs, Jon, if you set up linuxppc on one of your Macs you'll be grateful you learned to do tar -xfz [file] and
Chris, who's tickled. By God, I think he's got it!
Well, fair enough, though I would point out that Jon exemplifies a type of user that you- we? Linux folk are going to be dealing with. For convenience's sake: my Email but honestly, if Katz is actually _using_ linux at all, I think he's interesting and amusing to hear from. It's like a tagalong kid brother, determined to fit in, and with such a relentlessly upbeat attitude that you can't help but warm to him eventually- Katz makes Linux sound quite hard, but _cool_, because of his relentless hero worship. ;) I may be fairly lost on Linux, but I've been saying all along: there are Mac hackers, too, just as there are watercolor-painting geeks and slab pottery gurus out there. Frankly, the 'hacking curve' on a Mac has discontinuities- there's a pretty sharp break between resource hacking and system comprehension, and MacOS programming, and the latter requires the skills of a guru, or the purchase of expensive software from Metrowerks that has libs which can handle much of the sheer complexity of MacOS. ;) ;) I don't think Katz should stop doing articles. There's a place for his breathless optimism and desire to belong. My own angle is more conceptual BOFHishness and gentle cynicism, combined with simple enjoyment of computer tricks and a relentless fascination with what these things _mean_ in society- and if CmdrTaco wants to find me, he knows where to look (at least now he does, since I've posted my Email ;) ) :) I believe I actually ran it once. For that matter, I also own Microsoft Typing Tutor- the 16K cassette tape version (seriously!) I have it on display in the customer area in the fixit shop where I work, but I think I ought to take it back home- nobody finds it as amusing as I do, and if they did, they'd probably steal it, and where am I going to get another copy, Redmond? ;) ;)
I'm a different breed of Katz... er, I mean, quite another type of linux user
I never quite got to that point, but you can't stop a hacker personality from fiddling with stuff, and so I'm currently looking at a MacOS desktop that looks like a weird NeXTStep design, with antialiased fonts, and with a desktop picture that has stuff to remember drawn on top of it like a more visually appealing 'root-tail' (meaning it's antialiased against the 2X picture and scaled back to size).
However, doing this has meant rebooting after every picture update, because Desktop Pictures seems to not appreciate having its picture changed out from under it while it's running. I can do something like this simply using root-tail- it is far less sophisticated in some ways (my alpha MacOS tool can set all entries to different sizes and you can set positions by clicking in a little window with a small representation of the resulting screen) but it is less _fragile_, and that means it's more accessible- something you can _do_ without it blowing up in your face.
THIS is what I am learning 'using the beast'.
There are things I do with MacOS that I just plain like, and that I don't see a parallel to in Linux- yet. But MacOS was never intended to be customized to the extent you can customize Linux- and this is the direction I expect to be going. And, frankly, I don't think it is appropriate for Apple to take OSX in that direction- even if they can.
I don't need a Slashdot license to write essays, for better or worse I am already doing that, perhaps in a less focussed manner because most of those essays began as my own Usenet posts- or Slashdot posts
I am pleased at the kind word, AC- I'm a writer too, and we live and die by style.
As a final campaign promise, I assure you all that I don't own a copy of Microsoft Word and will not be generating mangled ASCII. Though I do own Excel. (c) 1985- the version that fits on an 800K floppy
But I digress. Am I as longwinded as Jon Katz yet?
The people at Fry's tend to be a little better educated than those at CompUSA (at least in my experience). You don't go there for the service - you go there for the prices.
Creeping above, spotting lurker, dropping grenade, I get a frag.- quake haiku
Codifex Maximus ~ In search of... a shorter sig.
Posted by faywray:
Look, haven't you ever heard of "suspension of disbelief?" Or were you not paying attention during English class. Too busy drooling, huh? It's possible that much of the story is exaggerated just to make it more interesting. It's all for our entertainment, so why don't you lighten up a bit?
And put it this way, learning of any kind is always a noble endeavor.
I'm even worse off than he is. All of you people who have been learning about and using these machines for ages are LUCKY. If you knew what an "ignorant user" I am you'd probably come and smother me in my sleep.
But without the users, many you arrogant people would be hard put to earn a living. Sorry. Just trying to be as mean and nasty.
Perhaps you should give some complicated endeavor a shot. How about something that you know little about but which captivates you? For instance, why don't you build a house from the ground up, train your housecat to jump through hoops, or perform brain surgery?
Oh, but I forgot. If you don't know anything about it, then you must be too stupid to learn. What a pity.
I hope that someday you get over your insecurity and no longer feel the need to antagonize people who aren't exactly like you.
Posted by HolyMackeralAndy:
I just finished setting up and configuring a Caldera box. I've never done Linux before, only read and heard about it. It took me approx. 2 hours start to finish. It's fun to follow another persons experience with Linux but dude, lighten up, this is not that big of a deal...maybe you should go back to your Mac.
Posted by Hamlet of Elsinore:
/. thoughtful reply to flame ratio diminishes....
Good luck getting "Slobber" up and online. Great story. Funny to read. I can even understand your visit to CompUSA, of all places. I share your impatience to rip open the packaging and play with a new toy. I drove to my local UPS depot in the evening to find my new P2-400 among the 75 or 100 brown trucks after the driver left a "no one's here, back Monday" note. UPS depots are cool at night, the hidden machinery of delivery revealed.
I am a little bit surprised that you have not been inside (m)any PCs in your years of their use. Perhaps it is an uncommon personality trait to open up the box and poke around. It is the same trait to peer into dark corners of an operating system to see what features are in hiding there. That is one reason for the resentment that many in the Linux community have for MS. Many of the features are buried, undocumented, unconfigurable. The one-size fits all, "you'll want this", "we know best", nature of Windows' setup and operation raises the wrath of the folks who want to get under the hood. With Linux, perhaps you need to enjoy being forced to make all sorts of decisions at install. I can imagine the difficulty if you do not enjoy the choppy seas of the install. With Linux today, we have to pay some dues in the engine room before enjoying the speed of the ship up on the bridge. But I'm no expert, a little skill gained putting Slackware onto a laptop four or five years ago with all of the pcmcia woes, a new install of RH 5.2 to learn about PPP service, keep up my Unix chops. I spend a lot of time in NT. For now.
Keep up your posts. Enjoy your new machine. I hope the
Posted by phelddgrif:
:-)
I must admit, I didn't read all the posts. Why? Because it seems like half of them are pissant losers who like to flame people. I admit I used to flame people, back when I was 16 and had a 2400 baud modem (back then the baud rate was the same as the connect speed, now it is not because of compression). However, *I* grew up. Obviously their are a lot of people reading this site that have not. Please people, think twice before flaming and put yourself in this guy's shoes. What did he do wrong to deserve that kind of treatment (and foul language).
Personally, I like this guy's writing. I must admit I was hanging the edge of my seat while I was reading the entire article.
Myself, I must admit I'm a Linux person. I've had a box for a year now (up to RedHat 5.2) and I've setup and configured PostgreSQL, Apache, X-Free86, Samba, etc. and they all work and do what I want them to, more or less. However, their is no all knowing UNIX god out there and I admit I'm far from that image. But I'm working on it....
I'd say give this guy a break. He wrote an entertaining and informative article from his point of view. The only person(s) that can call him a liar/cheat are himself, his family, and his dog who slobbered on the motherboard (which doesn't sound far fetched from the stories I've heard from friends of their dogs eating their keyboards...)
All in all, a job well done and I'm sorry I was long winded. I'll pull on my asbestos suit that I have in my closet (from back in the day of old school flaming) and wait out the storm.
Course, as much as UPS destroys (and I've had some stuff badly mauled by them too), you'd think that they'd fire the morons responsible. When an employee causes his boss financial loss like that, most companies fire the employee in question so they don't have to eat the loss again.
/dev/brain /dev/brain: No such file or directory
# find
find: cannot open
What is your Slash Rating?
Linux has nothing to with software or technology. It's a test of the human spirit.
It's just a friggin OPERATING SYSTEM. How much of a "test of the human spirit" is inserting a BOOTABLE Red Hat CD-ROM and turning on the damn machine? (Granted for a typical Mac user, that would be a stretch of technical capacity.)
It's idiotic cultist statements like that which contribute to the undying arrogance of this so called "community".
If you can read this message, your threshold is too low.
But how many typical Mac users have ever RE-INSTALLED their OS after they got their system? I can venture a guess of not very many at all.
If you can read this message, your threshold is too low.
Based on my experience in this industry. I have had MANY dealings with Mac users over the years, even co-hosted a radio talk show about computers and was the service manager for a major local systems vendor which did mac repairs as well as PC.
My statements come from the many years that I have spent supporting the general public's computing needs, both PC and mac. I have nothing against mac users, I am just fully aware of the typical skill level of each group.
If you can read this message, your threshold is too low.
If its your dime I will stay on the phone and walk you through the install of redhat or slackware.
To the flamers:
Wow you guys suck. I have no idea why any of you think your so damn great. If Bill Gates him self wanted help with a linux issue we should help. Not do our best to belittle everyone that does not get it the first, second, third, or even the fourth time.
You guys almost make me ashamed to be a linux user.
This guy is not giving linux a bad rap. You are!!! My guess is that the flamers have bigger egos than real technical skills.
If anything these are issues that need to be addressed. Not a user problem. I would be fired if I said "Well it's not my code. The users are idiots." Instead of railing on him and filling his e-mail box with insults you should be e-mailing him offering help.
Linux is a operating system not a elite club of ego-maniac's.
Last one in jail is a fascist.
>Yes, it is right to refuse a damaged package, but once a member of your house accepts it, it is yours.
I once got a computer back from repair, opened the box, and the CPU had fallen out.
I filed a complaint with UPS, and they paid for return and repair.
Ooh, a sarcasm detector. Oh, that's a real useful invention.
Is it? Perhaps I'm not one to judge these days, since I'm quite well acquainted with the innards and interfaces of most of the software on my machines, but I imagine using a computer thinking "this will be the hardest thing I've ever done" can't do much for one's success. Have some confidence in yourself and your problem solving abilities; the human brain can solve some incredible problems with a little persistence.
Now, don't rush into the job blissfully ignorant with plans to remain that way; don't fear every little thing. Computer hardware is quite literally dumb. It really doesn't know what it's doing. It only knows how to do it. Of course, this is at a most basic level, you say, but once one understands that an entire machine is just the sum of its parts in working order, and that every mystery to its workings can be solved by gradual awareness of how each of its parts work, the task doesn't seem so herculean.
I understand that "pee cee" hardware is odd. A better part of it is downright crap, really, and it's a shame one has to be ever so careful about what to buy and what to avoid (because of proprietary interfaces to open hardware). If you're from a Macintosh world, but you're set on exploring new architecures and you have the cash, I would suggest buying Alpha hardware, or maybe PowerPC hardware, or even an old Sun or SGI. The hardware design at these levels is something you won't approach in PC design. Of course, the software availability is proportionally lower these days.
My advice for operating system installation? Stick to the guide unless you know better. But as you catch yourself thinking you might just do something your own way, size up the changes your actions might effect. Turn back then if you wish; there's no shame in playing it safe when you can always change it later.
Trust your instincts, because your computer won't.
Well, since I got my boxes backed-up, and still haven't gotten the okay for the hardware for that trinux network monitor I want to set up - cool packgae BTW - this was just right for a Friday read. Funny, overall. Could be titled "How I fucked up a 2-car funeral".
/. so often. So, keep writing, Jon, I'll read it all, and the entertaining responses you incite!
What I like about Jon's postings is that they always provoke spirited responses; the other reason I read
"shop smart:shop s-mart" ash
Aye, it's enough to make me wonder anyway. As many other people have said, no sane person would EVER accept an obviously-damaged product from a shipper! It shouldn't even be opened (any more than it already is on reciept of course - happens when things get dropped/squashed/etc), the carrier should immediately be told "This is damaged, return it NOW."
Sam: "That was needlessly cryptic."
Max: "I'd be peeing my pants if I wore any!"
Umm, did we rea the same article? The one where Jon Katz says his wife reported seeing the UPS guy drop the box the computer was in? Have you ever seen the kind of damage UPS can do to a package? If if was dropped IN FRONT OF HIS WIFE, I don't care to GUESS how many other times it'd been dropped. It's UPS's fault. Don't blame the company that built the thing for the shipper's doing.
Sam: "That was needlessly cryptic."
Max: "I'd be peeing my pants if I wore any!"
I'm glad slashdot is trying to provide actual content, and sometimes this guy's articles are decent, but I've noticed a pattern. Each one seems to, at some point, go into this "geek outreach" mode, as if he's trying desperately to prove he's one of use too, whatever that means.
And doesn't anyone edit these things? The grammatical and structure errors are truly frightening. This is a good direction to go in, but it needs a ton of work and more thought put into it.
--
Y'all realize that the dude in charge of all the CompUSA retail stores is also a founding member of that pro-"Microsoft innovation" association, right?
Here's the details: Hal Compton, president of CompUSA (retail arm) is a member of the steering committee of the Technology Access Action Coalition (TAAC). Here's the Slashdot article mentioning TAAC. TAAC's got a web site at http://www.technologyaccess.org, but they've messed up the style sheets there. If you can handle the nausea, start here instead.
I guarantee you I've stopped shopping at CompUSA because of this association, and recommend that people go elsewhere.
Like Jon says, "everything about the place is designed to insult, alienate or abandon customers." -- the same pattern that I hate about MS "innovation".
So now it's Linux's fault that some computer got delivered damaged. You heard it folks! A broken computer case is analogous to Open Source.
The windbag has written so much about software that he has admittedly never *seen*, not to mention never *used*, it simply *boggles* the mind!
What is next? A book? I can just see it: _Avoiding Linux_, 900 pages of rant with (badly scratched) CD-ROM.
Given the opportunity, anyone with half a brain could have gotten countless Linux sytems up and running in the months that Katz has been talking about doing it.
If it's meant to be humor, why is it not put in the HUMOR category instead NEWS?
This fails to be newsworthy from just about any point of view, not to mention that it fails to be ``news for nerds'' about ``stuff that matters''.
No, you can't make several valid criticisms of the article, just one: it's a bunch of incredibly lame bullshit.
The three obviously fictional parts I like
the best:
1. Case screws coming out. I once dropped
a PC off a 6 story building, and the case
screws didn't unseat at all. Even the cheap
sheet metal in a PC is almost impossible to
unthread. The case would buckle and deform
first. UPS would have had to remove the case
from the packaging (note that Katz didn't
indicate that the packaging was totally
compromised or missing) and drop it over 80
feet to concrete in order to have much of a
chance at unseating the case screws.
2. The dog picking up the motherboard in its
mouth and walking around for a while. Funny
image -- crazy ludicrous made-up bullshit
that insults the reader's intelligence, though.
You're staring at the innards of a thousand-
dollar piece of equipment, and your dog strolls
over and picks up an expensive flat board studded
with thousands of tiny sharp pins in his mouth
without you stopping him, and he likes the
sensation of having his tongue pierced enough
that he hangs on to it for over sixty seconds
(a very long time; try watching a clock for
sixty seconds) -- and you let him keep it that
long?
3. The power switch breaking. It would be
almost impossible to break a piece off a power
switch on a modern PC even if you hit it
edge-on with a hammer. And you can't get a
power switch these days that's not inset into
the case, requiring case disassembly before you
can get the hammer test going.
The problem with bad writers making up fanciful
nonsense in tech stories is that they're bound
to be caught in the lie. It's no wonder Jon was
fired from Wired.
Felix
An anonymous coward writes:
>So, dropping one case, seeing a small subset
>of power switches, and biting (I assume) a
>motherboard allows you to extrapolate your
>conclusions to what happened to Katz?
Have you been trepanned, or are you seriously
defending Katz and suggesting that he didn't
make up most of his implausible story?
By the way, he recently posted saying that he
took pictures of the damage for insurance
purposes. Wonder if that was before or after
his pain-loving dog managed to slobber on the
motherboard for over sixty seconds without
anyone stopping it.
>Or perhaps your omniscience just let you watch
>over his shoulder, and your perfect recall meant
>you didn't need to take notes.
Hey, if you want to believe Katz's bullshit,
don't let me stop you. I'm just pointing out
how entertaining it is to have a technologically
incompetent buffoon with the writing talent of
a half-poisoned one-fingered monkey try to pull
off a lie.
>Shouldn't you be playing Netrek somehwere,
>SC-boy?
Your own particularly uninspired writing style
reminds me of someone. ugcs, right?
Felix
Ummm, hello??? I know I have the damnest time taking a compliment, but even I have never waged World War III over being told that REAL computer people can be kind, considerate and helpful!
It's a small world and it smells funny; I'd buy another if it wasn't for the money; Take back what I paid (SoM)
Okay folks, however dumb accepting that shipment might have been, you have to say this: Jon is being awfully persistent. I mean come on, the guy has problems installing the thing, decides to go out and buy a system preinstalled, waits forever for it, it shows up, and he immediately does the geek thing: goes and tries to get it fixed.
How many of you call up on warranty before you try it yourself or with a few friends (or strangers...)
Keep it up, Jon.
>So far Jon's writing in his spare time
There's no such thing for a writer. They'll do almost anything, any way, to expand their audience.
They're kinda like hackers only they write in a "natural" human language rather than code. Just as you or I will get a thrill from making a few deft tweaks to the code to get a performance boost or to squash a bug, "writers" love to have people read their stuff. So they write some more. Even when folks give bad reviews, flame and scorch them for their poor work, they know that someone read their stuff and get a thrill.
Unfortunately, he doesn't seem to be very good at presenting his work. I mean really, if wrote code the way that he writes English, I'd never have gotten anything to compile!
Good judgement comes from experience, and experience comes from bad judgement.
- W. Wriston, former Citibank CEO
If you guys want to see some real, hilarious, war stories about a real road warrior and his adventures with laptops, the weather, his wife, customs officials, etc. look in DejaNews for author Mosl Roland in newsgroup com.sys.laptops.
Or hit his page here: http://pege.org/dir/fun.htm
At least he has a good excuse for writing in "broken english" and his stories are funnier as well.
He'll have you ROTFLYAO.
Good judgement comes from experience, and experience comes from bad judgement.
- W. Wriston, former Citibank CEO
Earth to Jon...
What the hell are you thinking? I don't think people come to SlashDot.org to read monotonous articles dripping with egotistical observations about something the writer clearly lacks all understanding of.
Normally, I do not even approach flame in my comments, but this is getting VERY annoying! Jon, if you want to learn and truly understand the Linux/openSource community, listen and ask questions -- stop talking with authority if you are ignorant. I would be the first to help you with what I know. Unfortunately, I am still a newbie myself.
The difference between you and I is that, though we both view ourselves as newbies, I have the decency to reserve my observations about things until I'm sure I understand. Not that I remain quiet -- I seek to understand. I haven't ever seen you post a QUESTION on slashdot, or in any other way attempt to be part of the community. You seem content to sit on high and observe. Well, try to follow the first rule of writing: don't write about things which you have not experienced, rather, seek the experience first.
That is all. In the meantime, shut the hell up!
- proteus -
We may not imagine how our lives could be more frustrating and complex—but Congress can. – Cullen Hightower
Sometimes, passing the UPS depot on the way to school I'll see UPS trucks moving with the rear door open. On more than one occasion I've seen boxes on the ground near the depot's driveway or dragging behind trucks. If this isn't bad enough, I'm sure you've all seen the episode of the 20/20 news show where Barbara Walters, the show's anchorperson, makes all kinds of funny faces while she watches UPS employees stomp open packages at christmas time in order to steal stuff.
To all those who argue Katz's computer was ill-assembled, remember that a trip off the back of a UPS truck at 35mph would destroy even the original IBM AT steel case. Who knows how many flights of stairs, loading docks or trucks the computer fell off before the delivery person dropped it off Katz's porch.
Do you pay attention to the world around you! Jeeze this world up until recently was and is dominated by Microsoft! The most easily accessable stuff anywhere is by Microsoft. Don't flame Katz for being a Microsoft user, hell I bet you were at one point in your life. Also he's trying to get out of using proprietary software by switching to linux. So use a little sympathy.
So, this seems to be turning into a terrible situation. Just remember, until you start installing Linux, it ain't Linux's fault :-)
I feel for you Jon. I've just had to perform major surgery on 2 of my Linux machines after one of them experienced a serious thrombosis of the CPU, and the other quickly offered to give some spare parts for a transplant. *sniff* That little guy is so noble...
WHY is it that otherwise proud geeks are often willing to discount their own savvy in order to continuously trash Apple? All I know is that, after spending years with every kind of box imaginable, if I can't fix a given Mac, or INSTALL MEMORY IN LESS THAN 10 minutes, then SHOOT ME NOW. But one thing is for sure: you won't find me posting to SlashDot about my convenient anti-skills.
"Until I went to one of the Fry's electronics stores... I didn't know that computer salespeople even could be helpful."
Ohh please... I've been to all of the Fry's stores in the SF area. Their sales people blow! They rarely know much, take for ever getting parts from the back, and tech support there is a rip off. I prefer to just spend my time fixing problems (that's all the fun).
Anyone seen that Fry's employee application? It is in yahoo somewhere... kinda funny.
Jerry Pournelle has actually seen the inside of a computer. He's hooked together his own LAN. He was playing around with windowing systems and OS/2 before 95 took over.
He may have a small army of techs to help him out, and his political views could "use work"...
...but I give JP enough credit to say he would probably send back the UPS box, and then eviserate IIS in print.
There's two ways to read this -- either Katz is a fool and his dog really did EAT HIS MOTHERBOARD, or he's making it up. I think he's making it up.
Katz wants an audience, any audience, even if it means being a clown and making a fool of himself in front of a public which does nothing but throw things at him. That's pretty low, but the alternative is even worse.
Hell yes, you have my vote. I'd far rather read an article from you just on the basis of your single article. If they're about Linux and the spelling is good, they've got to be more worthwhile. Maybe we can poll you in?
Admittedly it won't be nearly as amusing to watch the commentary, but it would be interesting to see some serious newbie competition against Katz (with comments from the peanut gallery, of course).
Slashdot flames Jon Katz.
/.?
Jon Katz writes a book about hanging out with his new buddies @ Slashdot.
That's scary. And yet, it makes a certain kind of sense from a media perspective. If you can turn Monica Lewinsky into a story, why not
I guess this explains what he's been doing over the last two months, and why he wants the Slashdot audience so badly.
I hope Rob gets some of the royalties...
I have a Linux system that handles my voicemail, firewalling, and home automation at home that's running in worse shape than it sounds your computer arrived in. Motherboard and powersupply sitting on a shelf, no case. Harddrive on its back next to it, piece of paper keeping things from shorting and a floppy drive taped to the top of it. Couldn't find the connectors for the serial ports so the modem shucked its case and is hardwired to the serial port through a ribbon cable.
Looks sort of like something out of that movie Pi.
:)
Everyone knows they take returned parts re-shrinkwrap them and put them on the shelves.
I personally returned 3 defunct motherboards. The last one wouldn't even post. I cut some of the leads with a razorblade, marked the box and returned it. 2 weeks later I found it on the shelf again.
I only go there anymore because I relish telling the door nazis to FUCK OFF!
DN: Can I see your reciept?
Me: Are you suggesting I might be stealing?
DN: No.
Me: Good. Bye.
"Reactionaries must be deprived of the right to voice their opinions; only the people have that right." - Mao
Portland?
Where did you find these knowledgable techs in the Portland store, and where do they keep them?
If you want a good geek store, try ENU.
They won't help you, or EVER answer their phone, but they know what they're talking about.
"Reactionaries must be deprived of the right to voice their opinions; only the people have that right." - Mao
You've never seen the inside of a computer before
but you are somehow able to tell that it's the
motherboard the dog has just wondered off with?
That must be quite a dog.
Somehow enough screws have come loose during shipping that all the parts are rattling around inside the box? You've picked the wrong audience. Anyone who has worked with PC hardware knows this just isn't going to happen unless someone goes out of their way to make it happen. The only way this could make any sense is if it was shipped in that condition.
By the time you get to a line at CompUSA, you are still dropping parts?
I'm having a hard time taking any of this seriously. It is presended as an account of your recent problems, but it sounds more like you've made the whole thing up.
Jon has yet to use Linux. Calling these articles
:)
"descent" is a bit dramatic. I prefer "ascent".
Linux has a more primitive interface (before X),
but that interface is far richer than the MacOS or
WinX environment.
Still, I like to read these installments. I can
avoid coding for a bit.
Good Luck, Jon.
I find that things which are sent via regular ground delivery, when they are big like computers, are heavily handled. Things sent via next day or 2nd day air are almost always in perfect condition. This costs too much with 60lb monitors of course. Lesson of the day for those that don't know, inspect packages delivered to you before signing for them. Most geeks love to get a deal and they don't take crap from delivery companies.
Katz, isn't there a LUG (Linux User Group) somewhere near you? You really need the help.
Ironically, I can usually find cheaper computer equipment at the local Sam's Club (a huge store that sells products in bulk) .. CD-R's, 17" monitors, and even games. I'm fairly certain that the '$0' sales with the massive rebates are only gimmicks to get people into the store; they probably don't even stock more than 10 items for said sale. Ever since they took out the game machines, things have gone down hill. Buh.
---
"Colors blind the eye
Desires wither the heart."
-- Lao Tsu, "Tao Te Ching"
Jon,
:-)
You're climbing up to Linux, not descending. Descent would be if you had to go to Win98...
richie
...richie - It is a good day to code.
No amount of bouncing the box around by UPS trained monkeys is enough to cause that kind of trouble.
Wrong. You have obviously never seen UPS in action, because if you had, you would not make such a silly statement. I used to do customer service for a computer reseller, and if you'd seen some of the f'd up stuff UPS has done to our shipments, you'd agree with me.
My guess is the bad handling by UPS snapped the standoffs that hold the MoBo right off the case.
I once had to take out memory from a Mac. It took me half an hour.
Then you must be one slow ass installer. Since
you don't bother to say what Mac it was, I'll
just assume you didn't know what the F you were doing.
I've installed memory in just about every Mac model every made, and I can not recall a single instance where I had to remove the processor to install memory.
As for removing "internal structures", so what? Like you've never had to do that on a PC? I know I have....
It's idiotic cultist statements like that which contribute to the undying arrogance of this so called "community".
You mean like your needless slam against Mac users?
Look buddy, quit saying "we", 'cause you certainly don't represent my views.
This is the first Katz article where I read every paragraph without skipping. Maybe having a beginning flowing towards an end was the missing ingredient.
BTW, always ship ocmputers FedEx: UPS is well-known for their "computer abuse" -- they've knocked a few screws loose from my computer, too...
David E. Weekly (dew)
David E. Weekly
Code / Think / Teach / Learn
h4x0r for
So far Jon's writing in his spare time, on a project he's undertaken at readers' (Re: us) requests that's turned into a fiasco he's funding out of his own pocket. Wouldn't you want to rant and rave about the grief you suffered before you even got to start the real job?
He's an admitted Mac guy and you're surprised when he's not familiar with the inside of his PC. I've seen MCSE's who couldn't figure out how to put a harddrive in a PC. You don't HAVE to know hardware to know software. (But you're right, it does help.)
Next, he takes it to CompUSA. Why? So he can run Linux RIGHT NOW! Anybody willing to spend that kind of cash (and knows their spending it) deserves a little support so he doesn't bail. And yeah, $173 to replace a case is a bit steep, but I figure $85 for the case, $25-$35/hr for the tech and about 3 hours of time to move and test each piece of hardware; testing being the time consuming part.
Now, let's play nice with Jon in the future and maybe we can prevent a blurb in his final article stating "The linux community mocked and ridiculed my every effort and should be treated as raving lunatics."
I've been on slashdot so long I'm starting to get out of touch with the cool stuff if it ain't on slashdot.
Great story, but what's up with this statement?
> Until I went to one of the Fry's electronics stores during a trip to California, I didn't know that computer salespeople even could be helpful.
When shopping at either store, I assume that I am on my own. When I'm at CompUSA I can actually purchase things. (And return them if necessary.) At Fry's, they have the hardest time completing a transaction.
I'm confused as to how Fry's can be considered helpful under any circumstance.
Hey! This is getting good. Don't stop now. Besides, the little paranoid, self-righteous twerp who won't identify himself seems to provide a reasonable archetype for all of the other paranoid, self-righteous, arrogant Linux wackos who are flaming Katz on this site.
---sheath
He can take it. And let's face it, only morons reward every kindly phrase with immediate knee-jerk approval or devotion. If Jon's aim is true and he really is sincere in his interest in exploring the free unix and open source realm, and isn't just kissing butt for acceptance and credibility, then he will find less and less resistance to his writings in the future.
;) If some of it hits close to home and pains him, well that's just life in the big city, and he knows it.
In the meantime, he's stated over and again that he expects flamage. It's always entertaining (to me) and some of it's even intelligent, if not a tad mean-spirited for my refined tastes
He'll either bail out or mosey on, hopefully a tiny bit wiser than before.
I really don't understand the typos, though. I hold professional writers to higher standards than I do myself or my neighbors. This is an informal discussion, but his postings qualify as essays, and should be treated with respect (by the author), even if the subject is off-the-cuff.
Lastly, most Linux users I know ARE a bit like religious zealots. If that makes for bad press copy, fsck'em.
Linux. You're soaking in it!
**>>BELCH
At least the Linux Zealots worship a god whose miracles are repeatable and there for all to see!
Which of the following miraculous feats is more impressive?
1. 'Parting' the red sea (at dead low tide) so a bunch of slaves can scamper accross to the other side
Or...
2. Running ip masquerade on an os purchased for $15 at a local computer store and providing shared internet access to a small but active household network so a bunch of slaves can browse and play net Quake to their hearts content?
**>>BELCH
Hmmm... how old were you when you read it ?
Good question! I was 29 or 30 or so at the time (34 now) and thought I was in for an enjoyable ride. I lost patience with his eternal rambling about 'Phaedrus' and whatall and dumped the book about 3/4 of the way through. I'm sure some would say "Well that's not fair, you missed the best part!" Too bad for me, is all I can say. I'll get over it.
I probably do have some 'issues' with self-proclaimed intellectuals. I'll get a look at his new book (from the library) to see how he tries to justify his worth as an 'intellectual' to himself, his family, his dog and society.
I'm aware that "Zen..." is considered a very 'grownup' book, but I think this is largely due to its density and obscurity, and a few good soundbites here and there. I remember my brother being assigned that book when he was a kid. Sheesh.
The life lessons and wisdom in 'Huckleberry Finn' FAR outweigh anything I saw in "Zen..".
But of course, *I* am not an intellectual, so how could I *possibly* know any better? Gotta have the worker drones too, eh?
(grin)
**>>BELCH
I haven't had problems with Fry's although it helps that I live near one. So, if something doesn't work it is easy for me to get back inside of 30d ays and get a new one or a refund.
I don't generally recommend Fry's to friends unless they know exactly what they want. Or, I pick out the thing for them. The salespeople are pretty clueless. I do object to one point made by another poster, that it is better to do mail order or internet. While on the surface it may appear cheaper, adding shipping tends to bring the price much closer. Then, there is the value of instant satisfaction, combined with peace of mind that within 30days I can walk in and return the part for a full refund, without going through shipping and RMA crap.
I do like their return policy though. My computer crapped out on me one time, and I couldn't figure out what it was. I thought it was the video card. So, I went to Fry's got a video card, and tried it. Well, that wasn't it, turned out after some tweaking it was my CDROM. So, I returned the video card and got a CDROM and my refund of the difference, and that was it. Computer was back up.
I dont supose youve considered the idea that new
users might be turned off by the general level of hostility that Katz receives here?
Katz has been nothing but accomodating to the audience here. Im not sure that I would bother to learn Linux just to understand somebody elses point of view. Would you?
Quite honestly I think Katz has been much easier to get along with than the collection of OS bigots and AC's that choose to whine and cry every time he posts.
I started with nothing and I still have most of it.
I really dont understand the hostility here towards Jon Katz. The idea seems to be that the guy doesnt know Linux so hes worthless. Thats not much of a yardstick. I know plenty of Linux/Unix users that I wouldnt let mow my lawn.
Katz has been nothing but accomodating to the audience here. Im not sure that I would bother to learn Linux just to understand somebody elses point of view. Would you?
Quite honestly I think Katz has been much easier to get along with than the collection of OS bigots buttheads, and AC's that choose to whine and cry every time he posts.
I started with nothing and I still have most of it.
I feel like I'm reading the confessions of Sabrina the Teen-aged witch. Why is so much web space being given to this. Anyone who can load Widows can certainly load any of the latest Linux distrubtions and fairly standard hardware. They just stick the disk in and answer a few questions. This guy spent three paragraphs describing his detailed experience of opening a box.
Ruben
http://www.mrbrklyn.com/amsterdam.html http://www.brooklyn-living.com
Thanks for writing, Jon.
I'm enjoying your comical adventures.
I try never to shop at Fry's. Selection is lousy and they sell broken stuff that has been returned who knows how many times as new.
There is no way that they check the motherboards, cards, software, etc. that they place back on the shelves with those blue and white stickers showing the return date.
Shopping the Web gives infinite selection, often comparable or better price (even with shipping) and BETTER customer service. I built my wife's current computer entirely with mail order components, and it's a screaming machine!
It's really cool to be married to a woman who appreciates raw computer power.
Sure, the article is full dumb stuff. Here is my favorite sample:
But we do ourselves no favors flaming the eyebrows off the guy. Although I agree that he has shown such a weakness for digging into Linux that the above quote is ludicrous, I always thought that the Linux community was very good at helping newbies find their way. So far I don't think we have done a good jobs of this.
Jon is still struggling with a whole bunch of new stuff, and he does not see a coherent picture of what Linux is and might do for him. Some people are not good at configuring hardware, even though they are experts at using computers for the work they do. Jon is approaching the entire Linux exploration, I believe, as an application user who wishes to tap the considerable power of Linux to perform jobs that are important to him. He is an example of a mainstream user, and his story is important to teach us the problems they might have in converting to Linux. That makes his success important for the Linux community if we are truly interested in increasing the Linux user base. Jon needs a per-configured system so he can begin to explore Linux in ways he is capable of now. At this point all he has is confusion, without a vision of the potential. Once he has a running system, there will come a time where he will see the power of the OS, and he will be converted.
Jon still needs to experience his Linux epiphany.
What's that, you ask? Let ma answer by describing mine.
My first Linux box was Slackware running kernel 1.8.13. Not really old, not really recent. I was trying Linux to learn more about all this UNIX stuff, having gotten tried of DOS, OS/2, and Windows.
After getting everything installed, I was trying to get ethernet working with a card that the HOWTOS said was supported, but did not work. (Needed to use the ether= directive at the boot prompt, but I didn't know that then!) Somehow I got my console in a mode where the text on the screen was blinking: on-off-on-off. The console would only accept keystrokes during the "on" half of the period, which was about 1 second long.
What to do?
DOS/Windows thinking: reboot the system, and all will be well. Kind of hard to type the "shutdown" command while synchronizing keystrokes with the on-interval of command line, but I got it done. After the system came back up, the login prompt itself was blinking.
Ever try to type a password, which is not echoed to the console, when you have this blinking thing going on? I gave up after 20 attempts.
What to do now?
Window Thinking: re-install everything, and all will be well. Ugh!
Inklings of Linux thinking: "Multi-user, Network OS". "UNIX supports serial termianls." What if I hooked up another PC with a null modem cable, and then ran Procomm? Could I log in this way?
So I tried it. Ran Procomm, guessed st the serial port settings, hit return a couple times, and there it was ( Hot Damn! ) a no-fooling login prompt.
Epiphany - Linux can accept many login types because it is multi-user. Not like DOS/Windows/OS/2, which are single-user at a time systems. This means that Linux has to keep on truckin'. Cool, seriously cool! I never looked at computing the same way again.
I think Jon will have his moment like this, and he'll be converted, and he'll never look at computing the same way again. We need to lighten up, help him out if we can, and let him discover it for himself.
I completely disagree.
If you consider Slashdot to be an analog of the Linux user base as a whole, as I do, whose prime interest is to further the acceptance of Linux, then we have to decide whether we are a geek's club or a community.
I believe that becomming a community is a key to ensuring Linux's success. A community where all people of whatever talents and abilities are welcomed, a commnunity where their voices are heard. If we truly are a community, then we need have no fear of Microsoft, which becomes, in fact, irrelevent.
If we are to become a community, we must take RMS's motto more directly to heart (which I paraphrase here): "Free, as in speech, not as in beer."
Katz, and any other visitor to this site, and by extension all members of the Linux using community, must be free to speak. And we should respect that freedom, even if we don't agree with the content, or we will become a club, and will deserve the obscurity into which we will descend.
Jon,
How about posting before and after pictures of the box? I'd love to see the carnage wrought by UPS.
As much as I am all for keep Katz on Slashdot as a competent writer, I was disappointed by this article. I'm also beginning to agree with all of you out there who said Katz (as a feature author on Slashdot) needs to know more about linux/unix tech-related issues. This article was pretty cheesy, and I'm not generally one to flame. Frankly, I wouldn't mind an article on his descent into Linux, as it were, if it /were/ on this topic; unfortunately, as someone else posted, the majority of this article has nothing whatsoever to do with the Linux OS. And /hello!!/, why didn't he just return the trashed machine when it arrived so battered and bruised?? I lost a bit of respect for Katz's "I am a geek" mentality if this is the way he is approaching technology & computing. Not to mention his love of Macs (userfriendly, maybe-- a CS prof here calls it a "fake" OS-- how often does it reboot?? Even windows is better.) It seems melodramatic to say "Linux has nothing to with software or technology. It's a test of the human spirit.". Sure, it's a struggle to learn, but it's about a love of technology, a feeling of achievement when you learn something new or fix a problem.
Linux is cool. He seems to be trying to find out why. I wish him all the luck in the world -- and would love to read the article that really talks about his experiences. UPS mistakes aside.
anneke
--Anneke
"Real Women Use Linux"
Nice story, but what did it have to do with linux?
Look, i have nothing against folks trying to learn something new, but you got to be able to call a cat: "a cat", and a dog: "a dog". I have grown up not taking crap from no one, nor allowing someone to string me along. No matter how much you may want to see this guy install linux, or here his long "story" about installing it (without actually doing anything) this may not actually be the place for it. You can say what you want, but scroll back up to the top of this page, and see what it says in the title. "Slashdot: News for Nerds. Stuff that matters." If his last three or four articles were shortened into one, and then there was actually a part about linux in it, then it would fit, but all i see so far is a ploy by someone to become a part of the "hip" crowd. Linux is an OS, nothing more nothing less. There are many ways you can use linux, the most common way is as a tool to get a specific job done. However, the so called "linux community" is mostly made up of people who uses linux as an all in one swiss army knife. You cannot become a member of this club, because there is no sign up fees or registration forms, you can't ask to join, or tell folks that you are a member. You will know that you belong when you can contribute something back to the community and/or to others. This can be in simple things as helping others learn linux, writing software, donating your money or time to different projects or just being nice to others and providing accurate information about linux. You don't even need to use linux to be a part of the "linux community."
My only advice for you is this:
If you want to install linux, do it for the right reasons, not because you feel pressured to do it. Because you will resent the entire experience and it will leave you feeling hurt and resentful. And i suggect that if you do write another article, please focus on the title of your topic, else you will be fooling your readers into expecting something that you are not providing. And this is considered to be the worst form of writing. So, heed my advice.
Its spelt "L-I-N-U-X", but pronunced as "Free Beer"
It's *assholes* like you that help make Linux inaccesible to the general public. Katz is obviously not a moron; he is only ignorant about computers. I'll wager he knows a LOT more tha you about a good many things, Dork.
I can't believe what a fucking dick you are.
support gun control: take guns from cops
Oh MY God.. SOmeone else who wondered why they were charging $22 for a CDROM Audio cable.. I went across the street to Computer City (before the buyout) and bought one for $4. This was the exact same part smae manufacturer and brand name. CompUSA Sucks.
That darn Slashdot is so cool... Hey did you pay the phone *(#(Q%$#$ NO CARRIER
I can't believe that there are people that, after reading that entire article, the only thing that comes to their minds is "what moron would accept a damaged package"!! If you find that you don't like Katz's writing, why continue to read it and then complain about it? It seems that the true morons are the ones that haven't figured this out yet.
Oh, and for you flamers, Katz DIDN'T accept the damaged box. Read the article again, the package was at his house when he got home.
by your own logic, wouldn't your reply to my post then "spur" more complaining on my part and make you just as guilty as i was for progessing the flame posts? i guess there is some logic there since i've obviously replied, but it's like saying that two people shouldn't argue a point because arguing only results in more arguing.
Doofus.
Ever tried to upgrade the memory in a Quadra 800? If you're never done that box before, it will take half an hour. And if you escape without bloodying your hands, you're lucky.
Schwab
Editor, A1-AAA AmeriCaptions
Face it, Jon (and those like him) are NOT like us!
Ah, but Jon is trying to pass himself off as a "geek". He keeps claiming he's such a cool uber-geek (Hell, he can even spot them with his super-special GeekRadar (tm), that's how geeky he is!), when he clearly is not technically skilled.
I keep reading his articles, hoping it will get better, but it's not. This whole story just rings false ("I'm not up and running Linux after three months because the dog ate my motherboard...").
I fear that Mr. Katz, in making such a big deal about his foray into Linux, has set himself up. He's talked about it so much, now he's got to have some kind of big show, a massive revelation when he finally Logs In. Truth is, Linux is cool, it's different, it's great, but it ain't going to be the huge religious awakening he's making it out to be.
You killed a window? That must mean you're running Linux!
:-) And have fun.
/me stands back for a second, contemplating this momentous occasion...
Congratulations!
Lamont,
I guess that you have not worked on the imac yet, then. The two memory slots are above and below the processor module. To access one of them, you must physically remove the CPU.
Anyone know where to get a copy of this 1975 BBC film? I love the book and I would love to see Tim Curry and Michael Palin in the film (with screenplay by Tom Stoppard, no less)!
Wombat
i had few problems here and there setting up my first linux machine but nothing like this. just so you know, there is not reason in the world why linux would cause the fronT of your case to break off or screws to come loose.
perhaps in your next tedious monologue you can *actually* discuss linux instead of the faults compUSA, UPS, or case design.
good luck.
--pompom!
i've experienced three different fry's stores: palo alto, san jose, and phoenix AZ. the PA and SJ stores lived up to almost every bit of frys' bad rep about their customer service being sadistic at best (my friend made the mistake of trying to pay with an out-of-state check and the PA store. BIG mistake!). at the one in phoenix, OTOH, i've had the best customer service that i've had at any computer or electronics shop anywhere. i've actually had meaningful conversations about linux with staff people at the phoenix store! even so, i always go in to any store like that assuming i'm completely on my own. the pessimist is, after all, the least likely to be disappointed.
tim
hiding in shadows / i hear you coming closer / you will explode soon -- a quake haiku
Don't remember which store it was where the droid told me when I returned a DOA 8X CDROM drive that it wouldn't work because I was using it on a 486, which was too slow. (Heaven forbid that the drive might have been broken!) I then exchanged it for a new Creative 8X drive (for $10 less), which I took home and had it work first try.
Moral: Do your homework before you step foot in ANY compuer store.
Your Servant, B. Baggins
Some Macs are an absolute pain in the ass to work on..hell, just taking the case off of a 6500 is enough to make you want to throw it out the window. Replacing memory on the 7100 wasnt fun, but at least I didnt have to remove the processor(actually, since its soldered on, that would be tough.)
Now if you want easy to work on..anyone been upclose to one of the new Blue G3s? Everything folds out before ya, and all the parts are accessible..
As far as opening the imac.. it is actually fairly simple..just lots of plastic and contortioned plugs.. I'm sure an imac newbie with dedication could upgrade his own memory.. It's not really hard, it just takes longer to get to it(unscrew this, pull those off, slide this out, etc..)
Chris
--
driph
Yes, I agree. Your spelling was atrocious. Proofraeding is not that dificult.
Yes, but as your comment demonstrates, you really need someone else to do it for you.
I miss Meept.
Ha... we all know that is only possible from Emacs!
I shall ignore the second part of your story because it is absurd. As other posters have noted, you should have examined the package before accepting it; the shipping company is liable for damages that occured in transit.
In the first part of your story you mentioned the flames over the unintended characters most of us see when you post stories you composed with MS Word. You do not need to "learn Linux" in order to remedy that. You only need to learn basic HTML and compose your posts using it. There are numerous 10 minute HTML tutorials on the Web to which you can turn. Download BBEdit Lite 4.1 an excellent freeware (i.e. gratis, but no source code provided) editor for the Mac; use it instead of MS Word.
You are on the Web. The Web came about precisely because of the myriad of incompatible document formats and the difficulty in retrieving them that Tim Berners-Lee found at CERN. If you are unwilling to learn even the slightest bit about the tools of this environment, then go back to the print world and take the rest of the clueless, sycophantic journalists with you.
How can you be so damn ignorant? no...wait I already have the answers:
'Nuff said.
P.S. If you have a Mac, then why the bloody !@#$ are you not installing LinuxPPC?!!
It seems that with John Katz, Slashdot has its very own Jerry Pournelle.
Finally! A year of moderation! Ready for 2019?
Thanks for the great e-mail, and all the offers of help -- tech support, insurance advice, even some free computers and proofreading. I'm answering all the e-mail but wanted to post some general answers to some of the questions: /., I sort of relate to the impeachment trial. I'm prepared to stipulate that I'm a moron if it will encourage the angry and obsessive to find something more important to do. But it wouldn't.
l. To the sweet souls offering to proof my column, I can't accept that for free. I'll try and work on marking some more time for proofing, but it's hard..I'm doing columns, books and magazine articles, and am about to set off on a book tour (not the geek book, another).
A couple sent LOL messages wanting to make sure this wasn't a put-on by me or Rob.Alas, it isn't. I've got a picture of the carnage in case I need it for insurance purposes, but as some people have suggested in e-mail, it's only made me more attached to the computer, which is now home, in a new case. I'm struggling to get it to go online. Soon as I can, I'll post from it. That will be a major kick.
This hasn't soured me on Linus at all, quite the opposite. I even went into terminals on my box and killed a window on the desktop that wouldn't go away.
Small potatoes for most of you, a huge techno-leap for me. I am more determined than ever to do this, and actually learn how computing works. I am beginning to finally get what hacking really means.
As to those of you worried that I'm bothered or put off by flamers or name-calling, I promise you, no chance.
Flamers are like airport noise...part of life. On
Anyway, I'm very close. I am also very psyched.
jonkatz@slashdot.org
Okay Jon. Enough is most certainly enough. Not only has the quality of your "articles" become
even lower than before but now what little content they had appropriate for slashdot has completely vanished.
In case you haven't noticed slashdot (for better or worse) is aimed at the technically savvy. Not at the average consumer who needs someone to assemble a pc for them and can't even smash return 20 or 30 times and get redhat installed. Slashdot isn't for you. It *ISN'T* for everyone. If it was for everyone it would end up getting so amazingly watered down we would be left with something even worse than ZDNET.
So Jon, please cease your innane ramblings. They do not belong here. When you have something new to tell me about new G3 or alpha chips or you can contribute something cool about the new HTML->potscript engine you wrote last night then you can come back and annoy us again. Until then please stick to reading the TECH section on CNN and posting your drivel to the masses who don't know any better.
Because we do know better.
--- I do not moderate.
Oh please, welcome to the real world. There are no weak minds in the fact that Katz brings down the technical level of slashdot everytime he posts.
Like it or not Slashdot *DOES* cater to a minority. Would you honestly like it to be differnet? Do you want to read the drivel in the CNN Tech section? Or the mindless rants of numerous hacks from ZDNET or wired?
Katz is a useless addition to slashdot. He offers nothing except pedantic fodder written only to entertain himself and the other "windoze converts" out there.
--- I do not moderate.
I just took the time to re-read Katz last few postings to slashdot. I don't think any of his postings are spoofed nor do I doubt the validity of any of his claims...
Quite simply Katz is a moron. A moron of the highest order. We shouldn't be suprised, the world out there is full of them... they mostly fill up roles as CEOs or head of MIS departments but Katz is living proof that a writer with national exposure can be more moronic than the "Tech Reporter" on any local news program.
Instead of flaming Katz... we should be congradulating him on accomplishing as much as he has with his obvious mental defects.
HERE HERE KATZ! KEEP TRYING!
--- I do not moderate.
I dislike Katz's ramblings as much as anyone, and wish he would go away, but I don't think voting is the way to do it.
Wonderful - so the majority of people who care think Jon should stay, but because you ****ing elitist morons think he should go, you are going try try to annoy him and Rob so badly he leaves anyway. Great.
Do you have any idea what an arsehole this makes you look ?
Okay, I have to say something here. Let me start by stating that you are a splendid writer. However, the first sign of your impending trouble was the nonchalant "Oops" from the delivery guy. You should have immediately started bitching. OOPS? What the hell do you mean OOPS? That's a Computer there my friend, OOPS isn't allowed!
Secondly, If you were not familiar with the inside of a PC, (Don't take this as an insult) What are you doing installing Linux? Granted, eventually Linux will have a spiffy install that autodetects your hardware (some do now) but it Helps to know what hardware you have, and what it looks like! Any legacy card will have Jumpers to set IRQ's and such, and it's kinda important to know. My advice, just grab some sort of technical manual on how computers are built and scan it. It should help you. Then when you are confident, Tackle Linux. I'm all for it!
-- Give him Head? Be a Beacon? :P)
(If you can't figure out how to E-Mail me, Don't.
I know Rob refuses to do so, but Slashdot should really eliminate Anonymous Coward posts. The vast bulk of the mindless junk posts and are written by Anonymous Cowards. I know sometimes AC is nice if you can't remember your password or what not, but privileges can only exist so long as they are not abused, and the privilege of anonymous posting has been pushed well beyond the point of abuse.
It's fine if you want to flame away at Mr. Katz, but at least have the guts to sign a name to it. It can even be a pseudonym for goodness sake.
My attention that is. I hope your basement has Radon.
hackworth
jp hackworth hackworth@newstrolls.com http://www.newstrolls.com
hehe.
I was more amused by the posts that have followed his articles than the article itself.
jp hackworth hackworth@newstrolls.com http://www.newstrolls.com
Jon has gone out of his way to point out that most linux geeks are extremely helpful, and you roast him for it! What sort of thanks is that? Back off. If we (as a /. community) don't cool it, his next article will appear on MSNBC under the headline "Why Linux Users are Like Religious Zealots and Not to be Taken Seriously". Alienating new users will assure that linux stays on the fringes of the computer world FOREVER.
0 1 - just my two bits
i'm not sure i've ever read a more vapid response.
It's really easy. Take any old machine. Yeah, even your old 486 that you don't even bother to boot anymore. Now, here's the key: ACTUALLY INSTALL LINUX FROM THE CDROM. Got problems? NOW'S the time to go read all those manuals. Nothing from those will stick unless it's relevant to what you are doing. I like your writing, despite lack of proof-reading (and I'm pretty anal about that kind of thing), but installing Linux is one of those things you just have to hurl yourself into. No amount of preparation (even a couple of prior installs) will guarantee that you won't run into problems on your current install. I have heard of people who don't know squat about hardware or software getting everything to work the first time. Then, there's me, armed with somewhat better than a vague understanding, faced with an apparently endless series of problems. What the hell...if you don't run into any problems, then you don't learn much, do you?
Zathras was once confined to the larval stages of using Linux.
... Zathras too went to CompUsa once, very sad ...
Now, Zathras has emerged from the cocoon of adverse hardware problems, software floggings, and verbal abuse. Linux has become a very good friend to Zathras. Linux has introduced Zathras to many new friends. Must be persistent, patient, and willing to hack. Linux is not hard to use. It's just different. This is good.
Oh yeah, almost forgot
Zathras only go to Mom&Pop-Computers or Computers-R-Us now. Much nicer folks there. They understand Zathras.
--- "Zathras talks to dirt, sometimes talks to ceiling and walls, but dirt is closer."
He made a joke about sometimes when he is bored he would take packages and kick them around. sometimes couple of the others would get involved and play some odd form of kick the box marked fragile.
thats just ONE of the storys...
ill never have anything shiped through them. ever.
No wonder people who know nothing about PCs have problems with them. They're too stupid to return damaged goods.
Christ, I'm an IT professional, with all the tools I need to fix the damn thing, but if it comes broken, IT GOES BACK!
I never thought Katz was wasting time and space until now.
Why should I care about the opinions of anyone this dumb?
This isn't news. Hell, maybe it is to the those unfamiliar with JK. Maybe it will cause some Amway maggots to get him into the trade.
If he wanted us to think he's a gullible idiot then he succeeded.
Get a spell checker, get a grammar checker, and get off the news board.
Really, sorry about the language.. but this is the least newsworthy item I have seen yet...
(maybe its a script for the next Porkys movie?)
..
.
Hey You! Off My Planet!
. * Did aliens forget to remove your anal probe?
Agreed - it's nice to see for a change the sort of thing that people have to get through. It's just that a writer gives all the steps, doesn't just say "well, the computer was damaged, so i went and had it fixed". It doesn't really make for gripping reading that way.
/. news articles - people shouldn't expect them to be written the same way. And you don't get the right to act like an asshole towards someone just because you're not face to face with them.
.02 -
These aren't the normal
my
Leilah
~ Leilah
I completely agree with you. For a long time I thought Katz was just another trendy Wired staff asshole trying to cash in on something he did not understand. Still, this episode touched me because we have all had hardware trouble (yes, I would have refused the shipment too) and we have all had bad experiences with Compusa.
I feel like the guy is at the very least trying to get into this. My big annoyance is he needs to dive straight in and stop talking for just a little while till he has lived with Linux at least one week.
We have the strangest duality in the Linux community. If you talk like a wire head then you will boat loads of help. If you talk like a newbie trying to see other side with no clue, then you get bitch slapped back into the hands of Microsoft and Apple. It is sad. Linux users have been alineating new users for awhile with this attitude. The message is that if you don't live and breath computers do not apply. That is sad.
ACK
I am NOT being sarcastic but I damn glad you are running Linux. For a long time, I felt you were just another trendy Wired staff soul who wanted to cash in on something you don't understand (Linux obviously). This article really indicated that you were trying.
When you are ready for PPP or wanting to get the sound working let us know. Some of us are not so damn ready to flame newbies. Many of us do want to help.
ACK
>He's a writer. He's writing. He's doing what he >does, and there's nothing
>wrong with it
On the contrary. He's just writing about his own hardware problems rather and putting a Linux headline on it. This doesn't do anything to benefit Linux, Katz's readers, or anything but his own ego.
If this article is meant to entertain, it has a long way to go. If it's meant to inform, it has even further to go. Katz seems to like to see his work in print, but just because someone published it and many people read it, doesn't make him a good writer. Writing, like Linux, requires discipline. (That's why I have problems with both- but you don't see me posting Linux articles, do you?) This article hasn't been proofread, let alone purified by the crucible of revision.
Once he understands his subject, perhaps by actually installing and running Linux, he can probably write an entertaining and informative retrospective. Until then, he should be taking notes, not posting.
And request a reuimbursement from ups.
Not to nit, but new pc cases generally have new power switches preinstalled!
Great article Jon, your comments about Comp USA and Fry's are right on.
Let's examine the evidence:
www.freedomforum.org:
Server: Microsoft-IIS/4.0
His home computer:
A Macintosh, which he seems to use only to
run MS Word.
His Linux story - Several months on, he's still finding any excuse to avoid running it.
Could someone in his locality make a housecall and install Linux for him? Anally? From floppies? With a sledgehammer? Please?
K.
-
-- Proud descendant of semi-nomadic cattle-herders.
Oddly enough, I found that the best deals on new brand-name computers are at Staples, Best Buy or Circuit City. That's where I got my last two computers. Of course after the purchase, I promptly visited Fry's for peripherals, but the raw computer price at Fry's for my HP Pavilion 6350 was $ 850, versus $ 699 at Staples.
Don't expect them to know anything about the merchandise, of course.
D
PS I thought Jon's article was hilarious - and outstanding. I'm rather stunned at the hostile quality of many of the posters. Hey, if you don't like Jon, don't read his stuff.
But the new NEC monitors don't look as good as Sony. I now have a Sony 19" that looks better than my NEC 21.
When I first started buying monitors, there was an enormous difference between NEC and the competition. Now, virtually every montitor made is more or less usable, but I still pick the quality brands. A few years ago, monitors were sold that could make you blind from their sheer blurriness.
D
This is the funniest thing I have read all day.
:)
I love sarcasm.
Chris
Why not? Because it would be kinda dull.
However, I will refrain from being too unkind, unlike the typical elitist fanboy Gnazi dork-pretending-to-be-geek who will soon fill this forum with their holier-than-thou flames. "It's only a bloody operating system, not a religion!". Blind zealotry will do as much to kill off the Linux cause as any Microsoft FUD pogrom.
It is a bit complicated, and frustrating! But fortunately, it eventually starts clicking into place. Not everybody started hacking on C64s at the age of 6. Those that did can't really understand why some people would find computers so frustrating at times, just to accomplish basic tasks, as opposed to finishing off that flying cow theme for Enlightenment.
Cheers.
-- GtHS.
... so sprach Graham the Happy Scum
...I thought the point of the article was supposed to be his "descent into linux"...?
I shop at CompUSA. But I know what I want when I go there and I know how much it should cost. The CompUSA prices are higher than mail order but for small ticket items (<$100) are typically the same price as mail order + s&h.
At least the sales people do not harass me like those at other stores (i.e. Circuit City, where I now refuse to shop).
Face it, Jon (and those like him) are NOT like us! They don't recompile the kernel on a daily basis just because it can be done! Jon is making an honest effort to become a Linux USER. And if Linux is to take over the world (or the 40% of the desktop market that Linus wants to see), the Linux community is going to need Linux USERS, and that means that we do need Jon. Oh, and if you don't like what Jon has to say... then don't read his postings.
I could competently admin Irix for years, had programmed about a squintillion lines of basic (sad but true - everyone learns somewhere), C, Fortrash, C++, Java, ... written web sites, blah blah blah... All before I'd ever seriously seen the inside of a computer.
... what sort of baroque crap is that for this day and age anyway? But you get used to it and then forget it and get on with the real task - writing programs.
:)
Being happy with software and OS's (ie. Linux) has NOTHING to do with hardware. If Jon gets freaked by scary trashed hardware then I'm all with him. There is NO NEED to know what bizzaro decades old SCSI controllers look like in order to have a clue.
The first time I installed an OS I was freaked 'cos I was dealing with hardware - I mean cylinders, heads, sync frequencies,
Anyway, Jon didn't write a Linux article, but it's still funny
I open the case of the computer they give me. If I get yelled at I quit. (the coolest instance of this was when I opened a sun enterprise 10,000 and nobody blinked.)
Thank you for not thinking.
I find it interesting that most of the flames that are posted are posted from the point of view "we", which I assume means all /. readers.
/. community.
I can say that I personally have really enjoyed this series of articles, and much of what he says about Linux is right on target. (i. e. Linux, besides being technically superior to many other OSes, is really about freedom)
You can flame if you like, but please do it from the viewpoint "I" instead of "we", because your flames insult the intelligence of the entire
Josh Hoyt
I hate Fry's WAY more than CompUSA, but this experience at Computer City took the cake. BTW, they're out of business now. :) Anyway, I bought some CC 3.5 floppies; they say "Computer City" and "Exchange if defective" on them. I took two or three bad ones back to the store:
Me: These disks are bad. Please exchange them.
Them: Yup, they're bad. Do you have a receipt?
Me: Yes, at home. But the disks say "Computer City" on them. Obviously, I bought them at a Computer City.
Them: Sorry, no tickee, no laundry.
Now, Fry's is equally customer hostile, but they have that huge selection. I try not to buy there, but you see that cheap MB/CPU combo in the paper and the next thing you know...
Mmm hmm. Went there for CAT5 and some wall modules (fully networked houses rule). Actually *found* some, which was weird, and proceeded to the checkout. Everything scanned for something like 40% more than what was listed on the tags. I told her so. She glazed at me. So I went, got a tag, and showed her. Ad infinitum for every part I bought.
By the end of this - 20 minutes worth - we had a greasy little manager sneering at us, a pissed off 16-year-old checkout girl, and a livid group of customers standing behind me.
I finally bought the shit, after bitching out every manager in the building, and left. Never went back. And yes, I know, there are places to buy these things for about half of what I payed.
...suckling from the sweet amnion of life...
And that's probably why I only browse at CompUSA. I've never really needed tech support there. When I need that, I go to the Internet these days and make up my own mind. It's worked so far.
Actually, come to think of it, I bought my computer at CompUSA almost three years ago. The salesman was friendly, but very used car dealer-like. Thankfully, I had done my homework ahead of time, and this time around I'm ordering one off the 'net from Gateway or Dell or Micron.
Anyway, I wonder which CompUSA Jon went to. . . I'm in Northern NJ, and I'm familiar with three of them in the area.
-Augie, done rambling now
Common people, give Katz a break....all of us had to be new to this at some point, and some of us did not even come from a *nix background.....I'm a modertly accomplished geek in Windows (if possible), OS/2....Be and the like, and still found learning Linux rough (still learning it, but I'm over the hump)....Jon is simply talking about the process...no, he hasn't gotten to Linux yet....hes just talking about the drive there. Katz is writting about technical stuff, hes providing perspective, something alot of people evidnetally need to keep in mind. Try remembering the first time you started really screwing around with a system.
As for some of the other things people are pestering him about....mind you that he didn't send the system back cause he wanted to play with it ASAP.....not because he was stupid...a sentiment I can easily understand. Linux needs non-technical people using it in order for it to get enough software to be viable in the long term. Free software is great, but there is currently a huge application gap that needs to be filled. Having a user base allows for commerical development, which will fill some of this (mind you, I prefer good old fashion free OSS software, but the choice of having multiple applications to choose from cannot be a bad thing, I'm sick of having to boot into NT just to do something for which there in not a Linux equivelent)......as for the proofreading, there are as usually so many error littering this site that I am surprised that this is even an issue....its just another excuse to flame Katz. I f you dont like this, fine, dont read it....but some of us are enjoying a different perspective.
Like I said.
To Mr. "You have trouble with Macs, you must be a moron": I've had Macs arrive HDOA (Half-Dead On Arrival) before. I had an LCII whose HD was terminally frotzed, and my 7200's serial ports were toast out of the box. Hey, it happens.
Equal time: My PC's first NEC monitor died in under 3 weeks, too.
I apologize for misquoting you. I still don't think he deserved a flame, even if it was only on "warm".
Yes, I did the logical thing and made the vendor give me a working product. In each case I spent hours troubleshooting before I was convinced that it was really a HW problem - and which piece was faulty. Repair shops are notoriously unwilling to take my word for what is wrong. They usually first try to blame it on my software.
I'm also not afraid to open boxes up; I trust I can put them back together without making things worse. I don't consider myself an expert, just fearless. Okay, I've made a dual-boot MacOS/Linux system that required counting up HD cylinders; maybe I am an expert.
My point is, many people lack that basic cavalier attitude regarding electronics. I don't hold that against them; I don't do cars - or MS-DOS.
That's me. I had time on my side, and I have confidence in my expertise. I can't say what I would have done if I were working under a deadline. In Jon's case, unless I were planning to use Linux long-term, I'd probably have leased the machine for a month.
Tech Support? You call what they have at CompUSA techsupport?
No kidding. The Computer City I used to go to had some fairly intelligent folks to talk to. The only good part of their assimilation was that they had a great clearance sale for a week or so.
Your right to not believe: Americans United for Separation of Church and
>>How many of you out there would accept a new car with the engine disassembled and sitting in pieces in the trunk and think "I know a pretty shitty mechanic who has always fucked me over in the past. I should take this to him so he can fuck me again because I really don't want to wait for new car."
Amen....I havent laughed that hard in a while...
>>I've known a few people who, and I've been known to myself, go into CompUSA wearing a red shirt of roughly the same fabric and weight as their shirts, and spend a half-hour to an hour being genuinely helpful to customers. So far, I've never been escorted out of the building for this, but I have heard of it happening.
umm...look, i'm sure that your doing a nice charitable thing, but is anyone else thinking "WTF?? Do you smoke to much crack, or just have way too much free time??" *why* would you do such a thing?
ok...back to the crackpipe
>>And I'm sure that we all would be happy to see links from various pro-MS websites to your articles so they can see exactly how easy Linux is to purchase and use.
Im sorry...are you reading a different article than I am?? Because the one Jon Katz wrote certainly did nothing to create the image that linux is easy to purchase and use. As a matter of fact, it made it seem like the biggest clusterfuck imaginable...but hey it might just be...or maybe the crack, but in any case try reading the article again with your eyes open.
The whole thing remainds me of Three men in a boat, laughing all the time. It makes a nice comic article.
Mr. Katz, I can sympathize with your plight. I, myself, have never had a computer upgrade or construction go right without considerable difficulties.
Even so, if you receive something broken, the most sensible thing to do is send it back to the vendor . Some vendors will ship you a replacement even before they get the defective machine back, if you're that impatient. They'll usually make it good for you free of charge. Take it from a guy who gets really impatient himself.
It's no wonder you have such vehement detractors...
(P.S.--find someone, anyone, to proof your columns for you before you post them. That's two in a row with rather serious editing glitches in them. I'd happily volunteer for the task if you like--email me at robotech@eyrie.org.)
Editor Emeritus and Senior Writer, TeleRead.org
PB 520 are the worst. It took me 3 hours to get a damn internal modem in the thing. By far on of the most inaccessible designs, expecially if you have big hands.
"You're not putting the bad word on that machine are you?" ~The Man ~The Man
This is by far the best piece of his I've seen on
I think a lot of people are missing the point here, overall: these pieces aren't supposed to be detailed, dry treatises on using Linux, or any other OS. They're not supposed to "furthur the cause" of Linux or Open Source, either. (I'm confused as to why some folks are looking to Katz as some sort of spokesperson.)
They're just about an average Joe using technology. They're more humanistic than technical. They're a little bit fluffy, a little bit fun. The kind of thing you'd find on the last page of MacUser or Wired.
With Katz, I think it's a total waste of time arguing about factual details and his supposed "lack of common sense" (hey, idiots: did it occur to you that if the box _had_ been sent back right away, the rest of the story wouldn't work?). When your overanalyse pieces like this, you miss their point & you miss their charm.
OTOH, you could easily argue that such pieces are not a good fit for
=moJ
- - - - - -
Member in Good Standing,
please please please lighten up people.
=moJ
- - - - - -
Member in Good Standing,
=moJ
- - - - - -
Member in Good Standing,
The last time I went to CrapUSSR I simply wanted to see what their DVD selection was like. I knew they carried DVDs, but I couldn't find them anywhere. I talked to a redshirt and asked where they were.
Red-We keep them in back.
Me-Well, that's stupid. What titles do you have?
R-What do you want?
M-I don't know I'd just like to browse.
R-Well I can't let you do that.
M-Do you have a list of what you have?
R-No, but I can look up a title for you.
M-There are thousands of titles, you want me to guess what you have?
R-If you tell me what you want...
M-I want to browse your titles.
R-You can't do that.
M-And your computers can't display inventory by category?
R-I don't know what you mean. If you just tell me what you want...
M-A manager. I want a manager.
At which point I pulled out 5 100 dollar bills.
As the manager came up, I pointed at the money and said "You just lost this money, the idiot here can explain." I grabbed the money and left.
I then went to Tower Records to drowm my misery in new music. Lo and behold, they had largest in stock DVD selection I had ever seen. I picked my movies, paid, went back to CrapUSSR and found the manager the reciept. "We have most of these," he said. "Well, tough shit for you. Remember, you can't move inventory if people can't see it. You just lost a customer for life."
I have since spent another grand at Tower, including Pi.
--
It's not easy being green. -K.T.F.
I've been stymied on that one for a while myself. Could you PLEASE write up something for it? A HOWTO, a /. feature, an email to me? Telephony doesn't really seem to exist on Linux, but if you've done it...
I just hope you weren't exaggerating.
--
It's not easy being green. -K.T.F.
In case you missed it, here are the results: /. usually gets something like 10K votes on a poll. This poll was held in November after only 2 or 3 postings by Katz. Maybe the feelings really have changed on /. or maybe once again we will see that the people bitching about him are grossly in the minority.
Yes 358 / 13%
No 2034 / 75%
Undecided 84 / 3%
Huh? 206 / 7%
The poll was "Should Slashdot dump the jerk?"
Maybe the poll should be administered again with a less cryptic heading? After all
How 'bout it Rob?
--
It's not easy being green. -K.T.F.
Your (and your wife) are presumably adults who ought to know that, if UPS (pronounced "oops") or any other shipper shows up with a package that looks damage, you should either refuse delivery outright, or immediately report damage once the package is opened, as the shipper is responsible for the package up to the point where you accept delivery for it. I really don't care what happens in the rest of the story; you just shot your own credibility, and I actually thought you had some to this point. Any computer ignorance you might have pales in comparison to this.
-- Blame any errors on your own stupidity. All wrongs reserved.
Are you unable to grok the humor that was obviously part of that statement? Open up a little.
This thread is the sound of numerous /. chains being yanked with predictable results.
I mean, if the clues haven't already been evident in Episodes I, II and III of "Jon's Adventures in Linux Land," then the part about Stanley the Yellow Lab slobbering all over the forlorn mobo ought to be a dead giveaway.
Or haven't you noticed, as Jon stated several times quite loudly, that he is Writing a Book.
--------
Bill Gates Is My Evil Twin.
They say linux is something you either get or you dont. In your case, Im thinking you dont.
Thats ok.
I do however like your stories. They are entertaining. Reminds me of the comical stories in the back of hunting or fishing magazines.
i too find it hard to belive that the screws all
came apart in shipping. but i won't waste bandwidth to talk about that. what troubles me is that someone would pay $200 to fix a computer "broken during shipping." maybe it wasn't insured, but i would hope people would have more sense than to ship an expensive device w/ no damage insurance. i need to take a moment.....
Jeez Louise! Lay off this guy willya. He is trying to understand what it is that makes a geek tick and, despite several unexpected setbacks, he is persevering. People like Katz who have the courage to step outside their comfortable little boxes and experiment with new ideas are necessary to carry a message to the outside world that there is another way.
Yesterday, I flammed.... today I reconsider my attitude..
Anyone that willing accepts merchandise that is damaged.. and then pays a third party to repair that damage needs more than guidance on how to properly partition a harddisk, they need therapy.
OTOH.. Maybe after all is said and done, Katz will have the foundation to successfully build *AND* install his next Linux machine. After all,
how many people just have *one* *nix machine at home?
-vE
-vE ten.xeh@dloc
I always thought Fry's slogan was:
"We hire underpaid, underqualified, limited English proficiency employees and pass the savings on to you..."
I don't think I'll ever understand you I've-never-seen-the-outdoors--gee-maybe-I-should-w ipe-off-my-monitor-today jerk offs who think to criticize absolutely everything everyone else does. Shut up you geeks. Talk about intraverts. Get some human friends and learn how to interact with the rest of us. But most of all, quit your constant bickering at folks from outside our community. The linux community is awaiting acceptance of the rest of the world with open arms. If you can't help that's fine but quit hurting the effort.
Good article Jon. Sorry about the annoying people.
There are a few case designs on Macs that are real bagbiters. The 8500 for example requires that you remove the CPU daughtercard, all PCI cards AND the motherboard (and all internal cables to the motherboard) to get at the RAM DIMMs. It's actually much easier to change the CPU on this machine than the RAM configuration because the CPU daughtercard is in a slot right next to the PCI card slots.
Very bad design. Fortunately Apple responded to the problem by coming out with much improved designs in subsequent machines. The new blue G3 case is a design that I have wished for for 15 years. A side panel swings down with the motherboard on it - 2 minutes to make any internal changes.
I never truely believed in organized FUD by the media until now.
Come on Jon... how unlucky can you really be?
Well, I called IIS, since it's a local call and there was no contact info on the Web site other than the Webmaster, and talked to Larry, who claimed to be "in charge". They were aware of Katz' experience but unaware of his second article's publishing and the ensuing discussion. I suggested they take a look and post a response. So we'll see...
Well, this is off topic, but your Web page reference is no good and your e-mail address is not available, so this is the only means I have to respond to your question.
Every person, whether geek or non-geek, has hangups to work out. Like being behind the wheel of a car, it's a lot easier to be agressive in cyberspace--you don't believe you'll be held significantly accountable or jeopardized for your antisocial behavior. Geeks in general are socially challenged and are probably statistically more likely to be flamethrowers. I submit parents have more to do with it than anything, with personality and negative schoolyard experiences secondary influences. The resolution is individual maturation combined with inner healing, an incredibly difficult goal given the number of individuals in this condition. Have you read the non-glossary material in the Hacker's Dictionary yet?
If you wish to respond, please do it via e-mail, don't post, and consider modifying your contact info.
Katz describes Linux the hard way, and he hasnt even got there yet.... How easy can Linux be? Ive installed it on a plane (well on a laptop on a plane...)
Surely its not so bad for all newbies as Katz portrays?
I was a Computer City upgrade tech for 2 years. I worked in Florida and we also had a Compusa in town. Just wanted to give some more info from the inside (and I see there's at least 1 person who posted who was a tech at compusa).
First, they pay badly. Both stores. My Mgr the last few months was a former Compusa tech, and he said they paid a little less than Computer city, but that could vary geographically. Our store had several salespeople that genuinely tried to help customers, as our Manager used to work at Walmart and was very customer focused. Our department bent over backwards often to help people, and yet some people still expected more. Things like fixing their system that had a virus because it wasn't their fault and it doesn't matter that it's 4 years old, or someone buying clearance "as-is" merchandise and returning irate because it didn't work and it's our fault. You get the idea.
I had many regular customers that came to me for upgrades and advice, and I was told that they refused to go to Compusa because they could never get help. Now, the most interesting part is that the buyout happened after I left, but my good friend who was in sales was still working there and promoted to Sales Manager 2 months before. She stayed after the buyout and got all kinds of promises from Compusa, and gave them a chance. (She was one of very few female managers, also.) About a month ago, she got fed up and quit. From her mouth: They had her working 80 hour weeks, they lowered the sales staff's pay, and they treated the employees horribly. Of the 20 or so people I worked with that stayed after the buyout, I believe 2 are left, the rest quit.
If employees are treated badly, they aren't motivated to enjoy their job and help customers. It's sad, because it's easily fixable.
I must agree, as a long time Mac user I knew nothing about command line or bios or /root etc.
I bought a minitower , drives etc etc and started from scratch. I read and learned and joined a user group and I'll be a year before i can say I'm running linux right now I'm "using Linux" and learning as I go...
Top marks to this guy! I mean, you can be as snobby as you want about newbies stumbling into Linux, but at the end of the day if it is going to be a success, it needs people, real people, to participate. Stop your whinging - it was just like this in the early 90s (oops, y2k awareness mode ON: early 1990s) when everyone was complaining about the AOL hordes joining the net. Ok, a pain at first, but if it wasn't for them the net wouldn't have expanded as widely and as fast as it has. So all aboard the Linux train - it may not achieve world dominance, but for flip's sake don't discourage potential passengers.
Just saw your comment - HUZZAH! Good rational thinking in an age of newbiephobia.
I think that this man's troubles are quite *cute*, when I installed Linux on my laptop, it took a group of five friends, in different areas of expertise to get it up and running. XFree86, I did myself, and that was one of the hardest parts. :)
Good luck
I try to be a reasonable person, but if an UPS or other delivery person DROPPED a computer package in front of me and/or it looked damaged, I WOULD NEVER ACCEPT IT!!! EVER. Even if I had waited months to get it. Even if I was writing an article for money, let alone fame.
Tell him/her to get out a return form, and reach for the phone to call your vendor. Once you accept a package, you enter return hell if you need to send it back. Your vendor should have been able to fix this quickly or refund your money.
I'm sorry, but the damage and lengths you went to to fix this sound like a BAD movie. I will find it difficult to bother to read anymore of this "series" if the author is this out of touch with how to deal with a simple situation like a damaged shipment.
By the way, I understand you might have been thinking that the Linux way is to overcome, to fix, and to adapt. But another part of Linux, let alone common sense dictates that you should get what you pay for. Maybe more than you paid for, but NEVER any less.
- speaking only for myself, as always
> My PC's first NEC monitor died in under 3 weeks, too.
NEC sucks. They may look good for reviewers, but then they fall apart. In under 3 mo. my new NEC monitor was basically shot: lines on the screen, funny noises, etc. I had to pay shipping to send it back, and then they sent a *refurbished* one! Great. I got some other dope's that was sent back and 'fixed'. Some poor person will get my old one when they 'fix' it, too... Anyway, not more than another 3 mo., the same thing started to happen to this one. I tried to get a *new*, good monitor out of them (because I had never really gotten a new, trouble-free monitor for my purchase price). They didn't yield. They only covered shipping so I could send *another* monitor back and recieve *another* refurbished one. There are a few minor problems with this one, too (like the OSD being fuzzy sometimes), but nothing that makes me want to deal with the damn tech 'support' at NEC again.
BTW, the CTX monitor I had before the NEC lasted quite a few years, so it wasn't my computer or vid. card sending out some weird signal to fry it.
I will never buy NEC again.
A brief history of my time: 16 years with hardcore geeks, back to Purdue. Harvey Mudders too. I'm a beginner.. in coding. I should have began this trek years ago to speed my communication with the brilliant dudes like you.
I liked the article. It expresses an admiration and respect for geeks, he's doing it his own way. I'm doing it mine... you're doing it yours... etc.. in a steady digression.
He is articulate and I liked the dog slobber.
Carl Forhan
Songbird Productions
http://songbird.atari.net
Thank YOU! I agree whole heartedlly with your response. It's funny, I am recently seperated (soon to be divorced) from a geek (male) who is one of the most brilliant programmers I have ever run across.
;-)
(Don't giggle, I've known *many* in 16 years of SF +F Fandom and playing poker with reclusive intellectuals (*giggles*).
You gals/guys are the brightest on the planet. I'm not afraid to say that, partially because of two things.
1. you forget and then get cranky with the rest of us.
2. The rest of us are different, not stupid. What we want/need to find is simply on a different path.
So, what do you do? Meaning people.
I hang with intellectuals weekends, and farmers and country folk week days. We're all different. Chico Mendes couldn't read until he was a grown man with children. He learned... he fought. (South American Rainforests). So I didn't begin reading Linux until I was 34 and this man had to chase down his dog (still laughing on that one)
IT is all PROCESS....
(Putting my soapbox away and returning to "Running Linux"
Carl Forhan
Songbird Productions
http://songbird.atari.net
Because the tech people are helpful. Comp USA may give your money back but they won't help you make decisions about hardware and go over specs with you.
the golden rule of Frys is : "Never make returns"...
Here in Portland we buy a lot there and the geeks that work the floor are knowledgable.
Carl Forhan
Songbird Productions
http://songbird.atari.net
I've read the replies to the Katz article until I'm dizzy in the head.. really. I don't understand people with so much to give intellectually, who have such gifted minds being such buttheads to one another.
I constantly get warned that this is the way it is.
I think you all are using the knowledge that flaming happens, as an excuse to keep flaming happen.
You sit behind your desk (some of you) and because you aren't out physically exercising, by yourself or with a domestic partner, this becomes the means of expression of the whole psyche of an individual.
It's funny.
But it is sad too...
I don't know what the resolution is.
Anyone have any thoughts?
Carl Forhan
Songbird Productions
http://songbird.atari.net