Slashdot Mirror
An Experience of "Kira489"
Rape. It's a violent crime, arguably the most violent crime, even more savage than murder. The psychological repercussions are severe to the victim, causing even years of trauma. It's frighteningly common--and it's often associated with the Internet. We've all heard the story in which a fourteen year old girl living in Maine is given a plane ticket to Arizona by a forty-seven year old man claiming to be a eighteen year old boy in an America On-line chatroom. She accepts--heck, she's in love and her parents are a pain--and flies to meet him. Of course, upon seeing him, she knows he's not the eighteen year old stud she'd fantasized about, but being alone and lost in a foreign city leaves her with no obvious choice but to leave the airport with him. Of course, he takes her to the local motor lodge and rapes her.
Unfortunately, the media loves these stories, the more horrible the better. It's the media that establishes ideas in people, but I did not realize strength of the current attitudes about Internet users until a friend of mine was raped by someone from the Big Bad Internet. After the rape, which had taken place in her house, she went to her local hospital, where she was tested for sexually transmitted diseases, and her physical wounds treated. The rapist remained in her house, and she was advised to call the police. The police escorted the rapist off her property, and persuaded her to press charges, claiming she had a rock solid case. To this, she consented.
Apparently, the detective in charge on her case didn't agree that the case was closed when he learned she had met the rapist on the Internet. "They [Internet users] are nothing but relentless sex addicts," he told her. "Furthermore, every conversation on the Internet is logged. I can get access to these logs, and if I find that you ever hugged him on the Internet, I will show that this is not a matter of rape, but consentual sex." He proceeded to ask if she had met others from the Internet, which she had. Upon finding out that she had met me on numerous occasions, and even had sex with me, the "slueth" felt satisfied he had proved his point, "No one on the Internet ever wants to do anything but have sex."
Despite the fact that my friend was injured to the point that, according the documented hospital report, she had bruises and tears in her vagina, and the fact that people willingly having sex usually do not injure one another, the police threatened my friend with the possibility of putting her in jail if she was lying!
It is ludicrous to believe that all people associated with the Internet are sex-crazed maniacs, or that meeting someone in real-life is recipe for disaster. I've met a great deal of people from the Internet, for both personal and professional reasons, and I've yet to be raped. Yes, like a few of my real-life friends and relationships, I even slept with a few people I met from the Internet. I even spent a week with one Internet pal snowed-in together during the blizzard that hit the midwestern United States this past January.
Was I concerned about my safety at any of these times I met someone from the Internet? No, I wasn't--no more than I would be meeting someone I didn't know very well in person for dinner and possibly spending the night together. I've never met someone from the Internet expecting sex, and while I'm sure there are many that do, I would hazard a guess that the number that do is not any higher than people who know each other in real-life would in a similar situation (e.g., sharing a hotel room in a distant town).
I once met, with the permission of her mother, a girl in high school, since I happened to be traveling through her town and had some extra hours to spare for dinner. She later mentioned that a real-life friend of hers admonished her for meeting me, claiming she hardly knows me. Well, how much do two people know each other on a first date for coffee or dinner? Interestingly, the media refuses to acknowledge this similarity.
It's important to be careful when meeting someone from the Internet--just as it's normal to be careful in any situation where you've not spent a large amount of time together in person. It's important to realize that a person's remarks and responses in a chatroom or a MUD may be contrived, no matter how fluent they seem to flow. Likewise, there are plenty of phony men and women in every community, and you're just as likely to encounter them in real-life, rapists or not. Regardless, it is certainly not in the interests of society for those who enforce the law to ridicule rape, no matter the circumstances of how the involved individuals initially came in contact with each other. Rape is rape; it's a matter far too serious for qualification.
I certainly would choose to be raped rather than to be tortured to death. Of course rape can sometimes include torturing to death, but most rapes aren't so seirous cases. I don't want to belittle rapes, but some cases just aren't as severe than some other cases.
But I must agree that it is really stupid to say that nobody on the Internet wants nothing but sex. And it is also wrong to accuse those that are raped. But on the other hand -- it's is also awfull that also innocent men are convicted of rape. sometimes it's just the wrong guy and sometimes the woman has changed her mind afterwards.
BTW - I think that woman can rape man, although reverse is probably much more common (and that makes it even more difficult to be believed when woman has raped a man).
Hello?? Is hugging on the internet, or sex with an other person automatically an agreement that you're willing to have sex with someone else?
Seems to me there's only one question. Even if she invited him into her house, even if she thought she was pretty close with him, no is no, and that's it.
It's not because i meet someone on the net, and have a whole bunch of chats with him, that I would automatically fuck him.
Come on!
As much as I hate to hear myself say it... sue the detective or the city PD, he has no right to further victimize her. Apparently he's been in a cave and missed the whole "she asked for it, look at hows she's dressed" thing that happened in the late 80's(?). It doesnt matter if she dressed as a french maid and let him in, if at any point she said "no" or "stop", it's rape. Kudos go to her tho for not letting it slide, it needs to be brought out and reconized.
--Mephie
Good reason to remain anonymous. I'll never have an account, too dangerous.
Besides, the events associated with the White House has set back the cause of assault victims by 300 years.
It's no longer rape, it's just an inappropriate relationship. Just ask columnist Ellen Goodman.
It's no longer force, it's preconsensual intimacy (really!).
Clinton trashed every woman who crossed his path, and every man accused of rape is merely following the blueprint and talking points he laid down. This article illustrates this perfectly.
Don't mothers tell their daughters not to go with strangers anymore? The ones I know don't tell them much of anything - they don't want to impose their values on anyone. "Mom, today is different, the old rules don't apply. You have no right to tell me how to live my life."
The Internet brings all sorts of people together, thinkers and predators alike.
Castration wouldnt work, it may serve as a deterrent, but rape is more psychological than physical. A castrate can still impose his will on someone and "rape" them. And a castrate would be MORE dangerous because he has nothing to lose.
;)
--Mephie
Yes I realize I could've dropped the term eunich around alot, but not in this croud.
Even though the criminal has made terrible act, it is not right to revenge it with another terrible act. And I would be rather raped than castrated. And if a innocent man would be castrated, what then? Would you bet your testicles and/or your penis that it wouldn't happen? Maybe you didn't know it, but false accusations and convictions do happen.
Usually, I just don't talk to anyone I don't know in real life on the Internet. True, there's the occasional "anonymous" Slashdot or Segfault post, but I never go into much depth about anything personal. Actually, it's kind of like that in real life, too, because I don't want to seem like one of these predators (which I'm not).
"Rape. It's a violent crime, arguably the most violent crime, even more savage than murder."
Let's ask a murder victim their opinion, shall we?
""
No comment... Hmmm, guess you're right, rape is so much worse than murder!
What this article shows is a problem with a detective that is ludicrous on it's face. If what is said is even half true the lawsuits should be hefty and someone is going to be a former detective soon.
I doubt it. They don't talk much. Rape victims
might have trouble recovering, but at least they
have a chance. Murder victims never recover.
I do mean "never", which is a very long time.
seems like a really crappy way to get more readers onto this site. cloak a sex story as a public warning. start it with "Rape." It makes a guy like Murdoch proud! Why not just start a penthouse stories section?
"So I went over to this guy's house that i met on the internet and i was really excited, but i never expected what would happen next...."
I hear a lot of cops get training for these situations. This "detective" obviously didn't, or didn't use it. It's hard to believe that someone with such a small mind is out there trying to outwit criminals and solve crimes.
john
This reminded me of an experience I had once. I met a girl in real life, and introduced her to the Internet and chat rooms. She met a number of people this way. Not too long after, we broke up (she dumped me), but we both continued to use the same chat room, although I avoided addressing her directly. At some point, something in her must have snapped, because she started making comments that strongly suggested I was some kind of sexual deviant (although I've never done anything wrong), without specifying just what I'd done. Further, she continued conversations on this topic (me and my supposed deviancy) in private to the point that certain people wouldn't even converse with me, without giving me a reason!
So, I was accused of something without being told what it was, without being able to face my accuser, and without any opportunity to prove my innocence. She played the 'victim' role to the hilt. From an earlier conversation I had with her, I suspect she was sexually abused as a child, but I can't confirm that. At this point, the truth of any comments from her are dubious. This has kind of soured me on the Internet chat idea.
Or to put it another way, my lawyer advises me that if I catch an intruder and shoot him, make damn sure he's dead. 'Cause dead people don't sue.
And dead people don't whine about how lousy their treatment was at the hands of their murderer either.
My GF studies criminology and we have discussed this many times. It has been shown that sexual/violent offenders are almost always a lost cause. I understand that people are sometimes convicted wrongly. However, couldn't the 3 strikes rule apply to sex offenders as well? By the 3rd conviction I think it would be safe to say it's not a case of mistaken identity. When they reach that point I say get out the knife and hack away.
If rape is worse than murder, than why don't more rape victims kill themselves? Granted some do. But for those that don't, it's apparantly better in their opinion to keep on living. Thus, not worse than having been murdered.
Eight years ago I met a man, the seemingly mature chairman of the English department of a Catholic college in southern Connecticut, via a computer bulletin board. I went expecting a platonic meeting with the possibility of romance, and instead, to make a long story short, I ended up locked in a small room for the weekend and (to put it delicately) received unprotected sodomy 11 times over my tears and protests. Looking back, I can understand how his misconceptions might have come about, and there was much I could have done to prevent it, but there was still no excuse for what he did to me. I feel lucky to be alive and healthy.
It was a long time before I tried meeting anyone online after that, but three years ago I very innocently met someone for a cup of coffee and we've been together ever since with barely a conflict, knock on wood. Like any other social institution, the net has its good and its bad parts. It's a shame "Kira489" had to go through what she did and it's a shame law enforcement remains aggressively stupid, but even people who have bad experiences can later make real friends and have real relationships that work well in "real life". Coward or not, I'm living proof.
Rape. It's a violent crime, arguably the most violent crime, even more savage than murder
Rape is a violent crime, but a murder victim never recovers, even partially.
There exist people for whom one could make the argument that they deserve to be murdered.
Nobody ever deserves to be raped.
The only fitting punishment for Amway distributors is ...
Sorry, that sig has been bothering me for a while now. Is it for real?
The poster's sex is not really relevant.
The statement in the original article was:
Rape. It's a violent crime, arguably the most violent crime, even more savage than murder.
I don't know what world the author is living in. Who is going to argue that rape is the most violent crime? Forced to choose between submitting to one of two evils, who would choose death over rape? Answer: Not many people.
I am set to go on my first date with a guy from the Internet this Friday. Could you all listen to this and tell me if you think I'm being safe enough?
We met online three weeks ago in an EFnet chat room on IRC. I've talked to him a number of times on the phone. Everything he's told me about his life seems to check out, though I haven't tried to run a background checks!
We're planning on going on a regular "date" -- no sex this weekend. We're meeting in a public place, then probably going to dinner and a movie. I won't have a car with me, so he's going to give me a ride home.
Am I being safe enough? I'm new to all this and obviously don't want to get killed!
This is a fairly pointless comment. It is in every person's best interest not to put him or herself in a situation where he or she will be falsely accused. So what? Does anyone do this intentionally? Is it possible to avoid this entirely? Not even if you live as a hermit. That's the nature of false accusations! Anyone can make them, even with no proof available.
Would you tell a woman not to put herself in a position where she will be falsely accused? I thought not. Rather sexist, isn't it?
I agree with you entirely. For two reasons,
1. there are SOME people who CAN change. Sometimes people need a second chance.
2. people are often accused of things they don't do... believe me, I've seen my share of crazy accusers...
shoot everyone in his family then, eh?
fool.
I used to be active on Boston Citinet, a precursor (look it up...)
of the Internet; it was (almost) advertiser-supported; just a few years too early. It folded around 1991, but was free, and had a local phone number. No time charges.
I met a woman, also on Citinet, through a third person (also a woman) who had met both of us FTF and thought we'd be a good match.
Well, it lasted a few months, but there were certain off-limits topics we didn't talk about. Being amazingly inexperienced with sex (another story for another time), she could have done terrible emotional injury, but, God bless her, was a kind soul.
Fwiw, she was technically savvy enough (iirc) to set up a direct modem-to-modem link via POTS; no ISP or BBS or other intermediary. I gave an ATA command when I saw RING on my screen, and there we were.
Makes me wonder why so few folks do it.
Quite right. Rape is an intrusion of the mind, more than physical intrusion. The physical wounds (if any) heal rapidly but the mental scars never go. Some manage to cope, but none manage to forget. Castrating rapists either physically or mentally serves only to satisfy society's lust for revenge, and does not help the victim or the rapist. Rapists are very sick people, and should be treated as such - locked up until they are cured, or die; whichever is first (erring on the latter).
Its a shame that the state does not spend as much time and money on helping the victims of violent crime as they do on the criminals. Still, if there has to be a choice I'd rather my assailant was locked up that have him/her loose because I need councilling.
Teach your mothers/sisters/girlfriends how to defend themselves. Get them into martial arts. Buy them lots of really big, expensive SHARP rings. Get them steel-toed boots for the classic jimmy kick.
Rape is about power. If a rapist has no physical power over you, there can be no rape.
A.C.
If by "full recovery" you mean a return to a level of function and morale equivalent to that before the rape, accompanied by a full psychological resolution of the trauma... no
Rape trauma never goes away -- you can "deal with" and ease its pains, and often a woman (or man, let us not forget that it can work both ways) who gets raped ultimately grows beyond her previous self and becomes, in some respects, the better for it after investing all the energy in healing. But neither the fact of it, nor the fear or distortion that comes of it, ever goes away completely -- usually it doesn't go away at all, but rather gets "reconciled" as much as the thing can be, and eventually built over.
Oh yeah, you wanted personal experience. My SO was raped by her boyfriend eleven years ago. It took her three years to realize that it hadn't been her own fault (he was her boyfriend, therefore he had conjugal rights to her, therefore she should have let him, therefore her unwillingness justified his violence, etc). It took another two to be close with any man again except through the net -- where she didn't have to face the fact that every biological man has a penis and a libido and most of them are stronger than she is.
I would then proceed to say how over the next few years she came to terms with it and is now "recovered," but it wouldn't be even remotely true. Eleven years after the fact, and it's still there, still hurting (both of us -- loving a rape victim isn't an easy thing), still healing at the same agonizing pace.
And, FWIW, the cops weren't interested in her case either. I mention it in part because the net has and does provide her with a lot of healing, rather than the initial assault. I hesistate to credit IRC or Usenet with much of anything socially beneficial, but they were, and still are.
Something tells me that you're missing the point.
There are people who have all the sensitivity of a rock...
Try "poring"; look it up. "Pouring" refers *only*
to liquids or "flowable" powders. Not incidentally, a fine, responsible,
and mature message-- seriously.
Or, a little less violent, pull down hard and toward
the back when it's erect; the pain will be formidable,
and the sac that constrains the max. size will probably rupture.
I've read that you can hear it pop...
hmmm....
/nick somethingelse
tough.
You're being silly and a show-off.
I know what I'm dealing with. I've been raped twice. I never let my self-respect, or my trust in men be taken away. I never wondered if it was my fault. I'm not addicted to drama. I don't have the need to feel tragic. You don't have to be hard-core. You just have to be strong enough to deal with it and move on in your life.
I agree. There was a good article on Salon about how everybody always trust the victim and never the man accused of rape. They gave some figures than quite an important number of rape accusation are groundless, which means plenty of innoncent men had their life destroyed and are still in prison because of false accusations. Beside, women that wrongly accuse men of rape are weakening the accusation of real victims.
Now I don't say rape is right of course, but I think everybody deserve a fair judgement. In a country where politicaly correct is ruling public opinions, one has not to forget that an accusation is not necessarily a proof of guilt.
That was how I interpreted the quote...I think the original poster didn't quite get the point of it.
My sympathies Kira489.
A good counseller or therapist, may be of aid to her, if she is feeling under-resourced?
That cop was a pig & this is clearly a mis-carrage of justice. There maybe a way you can get some legal aid & bring the cop down & that creep who raped you too? Of course, it depends what is important to you; you well-being is paramount.
Thank you for sharing your story, as it is a timely warning for others, to take care.
Again, I wish you well in your healing.
bobbyg
Plus, the quotes from the quotes from the detective don't sound too realistic. I have the feeling we're not being told all there is to tell. We certainly don't know enough to decide guilt or innocence, being told the story by someone close to the purported victim, who is surely somewhat biased. And for the claim that "rape is rape", that's not true. Rape is only rape when it is proven to be rape, and when it is not, it is not rape. Not everyone who says they've been raped has been, and we need the definitions to keep innocent people from going to jail.
You used to need much more technical aptitude and $$$ to get online, and the sex predators and the corresponding 15-17 year old girl targets just weren't there in large enough numbers for this to happen as often (if at all). (sorry to generalize, just illustrating my point)
Now, with $21 a month AOL, $999 computers and all, both the perv and unwary victims have a highly available, accessible and convenient way to get on the net.
But in part - isn't this mostly a good thing, that more people can benefit from accessible internet resources? Someone was complaining in an earlier thread about how stupid people just have too easy access through AOL.
Isn't that like saying stupid people have too easy access to publice schools, libraries, theaters and malls? After all, the net is somewhat of an extension of our society in general, isn't it? You have people that want to learn, shop, be entertained and meet other people and the net is just another place in our society to do all of those thing now, too.
But just like in any other venue in our society, there are unpleasant elements that need to be avoided. This is the same old statement, but you need to educate your children (as well as yourself!) on the dangers that are present in the world, online and off.
You don't get in a car with a stranger.
You don't play in the street.
You don't give a stranger in a chat room your home address.
etc.
So, what dead horse didn't I beat yet here...
I think you missed his point entirely. Dead people don't complain about being murdered. That was his point. If rape was the "most violent crime" then the suicide rate among victims would be extremely high, but it isn't.
It is said that 1 out of 3 women are during the course of their lives sexually assaulted. 1 out of 3 women don't end their own lives. In fact, men are more likely to kill themselves than women are.
I think many people hold 'false securities.' That is, they tend to think of things as innocent until proven guilty. I would say the internet is a particularly good example of this because of its flashy, 'cute' exterior as viewed through a browser. Those of us who know and love the internet also know the seedy side of it, and how to avoid. Maybe an 'internet ethics' discussion should be had early with children potentially at risk?
I would suspect that death is easier than going through life after being put through something as truamatic as rape.
We all have to die eventually, but given a choice, would you prefer to be killed or to be assaulted? The instinct to survive is pretty strong.
On the other hand chemical castration is only a solution if it is closely monitored (to make sure the drugs are taken regularly), or the rapist really wants to use it himself.
Oh, and by the way, there are female rapists as well, allthough seldom compared to males...
I would suspect that death is easier than going through life after being put through something as truamatic as rape.
Then by that logic, it is better to first murder the victim and then rape the corpse. Also by that logic, it would be better to rape the victim, and then kill the victim since it's so difficult going through life after being put through something as tramatic as that.
Think again.
Then what is more barbaric? To castrate the rapists chemically, or let him keep raping?
But then, I've always believed, and the crime statistics from the US in recent years have strengthened that belief, that the main problem in the US is the viciousness that criminals are treated with, the prevalence of guns, and the extreme social differences...
No other country has so large a percentage of their population in prisons as the US...
Yet the statistics show that it doesn't help. The US still have one of the worst crime rates in the world.
The rape statistics are especially appalling. If you go by the statistics, rape is becoming common in the US to the extent where you'd have to be extremely antisocial to not know anyone that has been raped.
I've visited the US several times, and enjoyed my stays. But the thought of living in a country so filled with hatred and violence on a permanent basis? I'd choose almost any country in Europe anyday.. With some notably exceptions (you know where I mean...).
It's macho bullshit.
I think you nailed it right there.
The 'Net can be an escape from real life. If you have to take it too often, you're not fit to date or be dated. BTW, I'm married, so now I have a reason to escape real life ;-)
is that what the point of this article was supposed to be? how stunningly original. in the future, please try to keep this pornography (REEL-LIFE DRAMA) off of /.
Well, you can say all you want about stats, but I, a pretty average guy with pretty average friends, have found the numbers to be about 2 out of 3, with less that half reported.
I hope that your friend takes the matter above this clown's head. Anyone who shirks his duty to investigate a crime on the strength of a victim's complaint on the grounds that he dislikes internet users is just as much of an asshole as if he'd decided that she must be lying because "all women lie."
Even if all of the tens of millions of people on the internet *were* only on the net to look for sex, that still doesn't excuse this pig (Yes, I'm sterotyping police officers, so sue me!) from getting off his fat arse and doing his fucking job.
If rape is so serious that no one deserves to be raped, don't rapists deserve to be raped?
It seems to me that there are two individuals named in this post who qualify (to my limited intellect) as criminals ... the original sexual assailant ... "No means no", and the criminally incompetent cop. Personally, I'd love to see his name attached to posts on the internet, as a loss of reputation is probably the worst that can happen to him under todays sets of laws. Then he would really know a small piece of what the iinternet is about.
One note - I would encourage you to use the word "survivor" when referring to someone who has been raped, rather that "victim". If you constantly are referred to (and refer to yourself) as a victim, it's very disempowering.
Rape is not something that is "unusual" or affects "a small percentage" of the populace. it permeates all levels of our society. Approx 1/3rd of women will be raped in their lifetime, that's an epidemic.
--
Only men can end rape.
(I post this under AC because I don't have an account yet, if you want my email is Morose@usa.net, nick name is Morose... I have no problem tellin ya)
I offer all the sympathy. Rape is probably one of the worst things that can happen. It's affected my life quite a bit (indirectly). I've had 2 girlfriends in the past, that have been raped. I have never been, nor do I want to be put through something like that, but I can imagine what it is like for the victim of those sick crimes. The thing that is never mentioned in stories like this in the media, is that you are just as likely to be raped by anyone else as you are from someone on the net. Date rape happens all the time, same as rape from complete strangers or even people that have been friends for years. It's all the same. Pay close attention to what they say in X-Files (I know, cheesy reference, but it's true). Trust no one. Best of luck to your friend in the future, I'm sad to hear of what happened.
-Morose
I'm with Gleef here. We have the Big Bad Internet and everything that happens on it is totally new.
Total strangers never met before the Internet, right?
People never got shot/stabbed/raped/folded/spindled/mutilated by someone they picked up at a bar before the internet, right?
Jesus HP Laserjet Christ, people. GET A CLUE. Focus on something else besides all the horror. Personally, I met my bestfriend via the internet... 4 years and our relationship is absolutely wonderful. I just recently moved to Maryland to take a job that an internet friend got me.
I know several women who have been raped and still have nightmares, feel it is there fault etc. who is to say that they will ever recover. One of my friends still is scared of being alone with another man. This is about 4 years after the fact. I wouldn't call that even partial recovery.
Yes I realize that one day these people will go on to live there lives, maybe get married, have kids...the whole 9 yards. But they may also be cursed with a life time of nightmares, and fears which people should not be forced to have to undergo ever. Rape should be treated as seriously if not moreso then murder. It's a disgusting and vile act. [period]
I'm sorry to hear that your friends were not killed instead, as their lives are certainly not worth living anymore since they've been raped. How terrible that they lived. Truly, being sexually victimized is much much worse than being completely destroyed, which is the result of murder.
Thanks for setting me straight.
I don't think you can compare meeting someone in a bar with meeting someone you've known for awhile online. The person in the bar knows nothing about you, whereas the person you've known online knows your likes, dislikes, fears, etc. The online conversing is a personal relationship even if that person is not physically in front of you. In fact, I would be more afraid to meet someone I've known online rather than a complete stranger. The stranger doesn't have any incentive to like or dislike me, because he/she simply doesn't know who I am. The person met online is more confident. He/she can be much more friendlier off the bat at first meeting because that person already knows what I like talking about etc. Of course there is always the stranger who wants to just harm anyone, but I think that is a small minority.
So, am I saying this behavior is to be expected? No. But some people will do these crimes because THEY CAN and it's just so darn easy for them. As soon as the offer is made to meet physically, that in itself is a very consensual meeting, because each party realizes the danger and each party imtimately knows what the other person is like. Just think of the confidence this gives to the criminal. It's an open invitation.
People are much more confident on the net than in real life, simply because no one can see who they really are. That's another big difference from meeting a stranger. When you first meet a stranger, you are already witness to his social skills, mode of speaking, shyness, etc. That person has to make a greater deal of effort to get you to like them. On the net, however, it's very easy to get someone to like you. You don't have to speak, you have time to think before you type, and most of the time no one can see you.
All this talk. If you feel strongly about this then DO SOMETHING. Educate. Volunteer. Vote.
If I can offer a thought via an analagous situation, perhaps it will help. If a person is paralyzed from the waist down in an accident, we don't talk about the fact that they have "come to terms with it" as being a "'recovery." A recovery is where that person (following surgery perhaps, many hours of physical therapy, etc.) is able to walk normally again.
Before anyone objects, I will state that yes I realize that there "levels of recovery". Which is what I am saying here. Recovery from rape is the same, and it sounds like there's more work to be done.
You're doing the right thing, it sounds like. Be with your SO as she works her way back to a place of peace.
The friend you refer to didn't find justice. This stems from a general disrespect in our world for other people's property. Your most valuable property arguably being your own body. Therefore when it is violated, the justice system "rates" it as something less important than say speeding on an interstate. The criminal in this case probably didn't even get an $50 fine. Change starts with each of us. Respect property.
First: I know I'll be moderated down to -1.
The new scoring scheme is so good, I can't even express it. It allows me to see all the _great_ comments on any topic, without having to go to nested.
But I feel we need the 'reply' button at the end of the page back.
I've only read two replies that questions the accuracy of the original post. Why did the guy stay in the girls home after she ran off to the hospital? This action alone may suggest that there is possibly another side to the story. So I have to pose this question to you: Who's rights are more important? A girl who was raped? or A guy who was wrongly accused of rape? Ultimately, that is the question the detective faces also.
ok... i am VERY against rape... i personally think along with Dante that rape is a much worse crime than murder and should be prosecuted in a death manner... however, i know of girls with vastly different ideas on harrassment... one girl christine is very feminist and considers guys making lewd comments harrassment. Last time i checked there was a difference between rape and verbal harrassment or even a drunk guy groping women... however, the emphasis is placed on "raped" because of two things a. its the first thing listed and b. its the only one that is not left up to the imagination. By placing the emphasis on rape, the conotation of harassed is upped as well... give me stats on how many women are raped and violently abused in a sexual manner or define what harrassment means and then i'll be more likely to believe the stats until then i'll view these as i view many vague stats, as overblown to make a point...
No, castration is not too harsh, if it is done chemically.
As for the intensive martial arts training, - it is bullshit!
for one guys also practise martial arts, so still, if both have the same training, the man is "strongest".
Second a girl/woman at 20 with a normal build can practise as much martial arts as Bruce Lee, and it would make no difference at all. It might make her more confident, but the chance that she could overpower me (6 foot 2, regular workouts and martial arts training) is about the same as a snowballs chance of surviwing a month in hell. Girls are not build like that, it`s natures law.
After reading quite a few of the subposts I have been thinking about something.
... I would just like an explenation, cause I don`t understand it.
Would anyone care to explain just how the F*** it is pissible for a women to rape a man? Seducing is maybe possible, but then again, it is not if the man does not in some way want to. If it is not seduction, but really is rape, I just don`t get it. If the man REALLY does not want to be with the female rapist and he really feels that he is being pushed into something, how can he perform?
I know some will freak out over this and tell me that "rape does not have to be full intercorse" but hell
Mike Tyson and his victim were staying in the same hotel, not the same room. She had stopped by his room for a visit when he raped her.
ok, this is rather a rant, but...
Well, obviously, right after sex, she said 'i'm just going to pop over to the hospital to get checked for stds and care for my injuries, since you just raped me.' and he thought that was just fine, and wasn't bothered by the repeated exclamations of "stop", nor the violent struggle.
Also, why was she getting tested for stds? Since when do, mere hours after sex, herpes pop up all over? Is HIV detectable the day you contracted it? No. And there aren't any stds that can be accurately tested for the same day. I doubt that a hospital would administer that testing, especially since they knew that she was raped that same day.
The quotes from the detective sound paraphrased. The whole story is a) biased, b) not even told by the person it happened to, and c) doesn't even contain any points of real value.
If this woman was raped, as she very well may have been, then she needs to fight like hell to make the guy pay. But the information presented here is not reliable at all, and, in fact, sounds suspect. And all this has resulted in is people trying to sound sensitive and insightful saying things like
(changes points mid-stream)
"rape is worse than murder", since it leaves emotional scars, etc. Well, so does being beaten as a child, tortured, and any number of violent crimes.
The reason, of course, that rape is worse than murder is because it involves sex AND violence, which are both very bad things, despite the fact that we love to hear about them.
endrant
I've also been raped, and I agree with Dierdre and CodeShark that while it's a horrible experience, it is something that one can recover from, and live a normal life. My experience didn't involve physical violence - I was drugged, immobilized, and taken advantage of. Yes, I was angry at the person, yes, I had a hard time dealing with it, but there comes a point where you have to stop wallowing in self-pity and writing bad poetry(those things ENHANCE the trauma, as well as looking for sympathy from others) and move on.
Maybe it was easier for me to recover than people who have suffered more violent rape, but the point is that I'm still alive, I've recovered, and it has almost no effect on my daily life, except for an added healthy dose of caution, which I wish I had had in the first place. And I, for one, much prefer being raped to being killed(although I haven't experienced being killed).
The patience I have for those who say they'd 'be better off dead' is about the same that I have for suicidal angsty teenagers. If you would be better off dead, then why are you alive? I think it's ridiculous to claim that rape is worse than murder, or that the scars of rape are with you for the rest of your life. While it's not something you'll forget, the pain will subside, if not go away. Why give your assailant that much more power over you, knowing they 'ruined your life'? You alone have complete control over your life and how you choose to cope with the trauma.
statistic: less than 6% of reported rapists are convicted. that doesn't seem like the hallmark of a system that is hellbent on lynching rapists.
No it isn't. When you're scared, sometimes you don't do what you really need to, i.e. resist.
Actually, violent force-feeding would count as rape.
I agree with you. Ive know many people off the internet that are like this. I like a quote in a mag I bought, it reads "Koko the gorilla chated live with members of AOL in what may or may not have been the first use of AOL's chat by a subhuman primate. Ive visited several AOL chat rooms and can honestly say that most of the users are sub-Koko. Ill find a 10-carat diamond in a Cracker Jack box long before I find intelligent conversation in a chat room." -PC Computing.
Thats all too ture anymore, and in the above message. I cant show any pity for the girl that ran off and got raped. Its your OWN fault if that happens, do stupid things - get bad results.
Yeah, I think all this "free market darwinian competition" which is the religion in the US is just driving everybody insane. It's not only an economic jungle, it's becoming a social jungle as well. Of course the NRA is there to make sure everybody is well armed and ready to kill its neightbours... when you have a hammer, all problems tend to look like a nail... and when you have a gun ?
Perhaps they are not convicted, but even if proved innocent the damage to their reputation is still done
I'm logged out to post this, though I could survive it if Slashdot hiccupped and outed me (no overly dark secrets here). I'm gay/bi, male, and was a virgin until 28. The position I found easiest was, shall we say, 'rape conceivable', in other words I 'took the female role' (a poor analogy but very apt in this context). In three years I've had sex a few times, _all_ with guys I knew from the Net. One was visiting the country from Australia! Every single one was respectful and in fact every time, verbally clearing matters was _assumed_: so was protection.
I could argue that getting to know people and their personalities, and gravitating to other geek/computer types who also were somewhat introverted and Net-oriented, was the safest thing I could have done. It certainly was better than going out to bars, or picking up people on the street or something. The Net repeatedly gave me the opportunity to set up VR-sexual situations with such people and SEE HOW THEY HANDLED IT. I've done that with some people whom I'd never get near IRL- plenty of warning- violence and refusal to listen isn't an erotic cybersex trick, but it is a damned good warning.
Have virtual sex online _first_, _before_ letting 'em know anything about you. And know what to look for. And always be ready to say NO to any degree of hurting-their-feelingsness.
You don't have to be paranoid- just very _selective_. There's risk in all things, but the net does make it possible to try out stuff in pretty good anonymity.
I hope I don't _get_ raped. The way I swing it _could_ happen. If it did, I would want not to be killed: and I spent over 25 years with no sex at all, so I might like to spend another 25 years that way. I don't know, and hope I don't have to face that.
I think it's brave and wise of CmdrTaco to run this story. It is of general interest, and the net angle localizes it to us Slashdot readers.
Actually... jail is not good to people who do these kinds of things. Jail can be very enabling to drug users/dealers, can be accepting to burglars, even murderers (not to mention manslaughterers). However, rapists begins to push the limits of the tolerance of criminals- and child molestors sometimes have to be locked up in solitary for their own protection, because the liquor store robbers and drug dealers and barroom fighters are quite likely to torture or kill the child molestor right there in jail.
FWIW.
come on matt,
let's not mix up issues here.
the discussion is about rape, not about the war in kosovo.
and about regulation: that will never solve the problem. it would be comparable to saying: 'if the governments would forbid women to wear sexy clothing, rape percentages would drop dramatically'
okay, a bit too heavy a statement, but think about it.
one third? explain were you got this information please (i am truly shocked)
I'll tell you how it happens. Some girl, say a rather unstable ex-gf you want nothing to do with, slips you angel dust(at least, i think that's what it was)into your cigarette, and, while you're completely incapacitated, unable to move, hallucinating, and unable to speak coherently, she proceeds to undress you and have her way with you. You don't have to be willing to achieve erection. With the proper stimulation, it can happen, no matter how freaked out or angry you are - and being spaced out doesn't help. And it's traumatic as well for men, depending on circumstances I'm sure, but I think it's easier for men to get over. I suppose it's because men don't have the feeling of being 'violated', unless you consider my third scenario below. Instead, you just feel betrayed and used. Plus, I don't think men consider sex quite as big of a deal in general as women do.
I've also heard stories of guys held down by others while a woman rapes him. He does become aroused, but just being turned on does not mean you want to have sex, or that somehow it implies consent.
A third, even more unpleasant possibility, which I've not heard of, but wouldn't be surprised if it happened - you're tied down or held down, and she has a strap-on. Nuff said.
It CAN happen.
But if you don't how can you make a case you were raped? If the other party doesn't know you were willing? I think that if you've not intervened or said 'no', it can't really count as rape. That opens the door to all kinds of problems, such as the "I had sex and afterwards decided I didn't want to" problem.
(see subject)
Some years ago a documentary showed the UK police interviewing a rape victim. IIRC two male officers were browbeating her to try to get her to admit that she had wanted sex, and demanding details of her past sex life. The woman was obviously distressed and not very bright even at her best.
The resulting outcry caused a major shift in police methods. These days a woman who walks into a police station and says "rape" is (well, should be) handed to a specially trained woman police officer who will deal with her from there on.
Only women can end Rape.
Until women stop acting as prey and being indoctrinated into being prey, they will continue to be treated as such and suffer for it. It's quite evident in the culture and is pervasive not just in things we would call acts of violence.
The notion that one is a captive of one's situation once a person is in an airport in some strange city only demonstrates this pervasive indoctrination of helplessness and being prey in social situations in general.
Airports, even American ones, are just crawling with the sort of people you need to have on your side in a kidnapping or rape situation.
It's obvious that a good deal of media moguls have really been attacking "the net" since the beginning, and the effects of the "war" have been showing up as being less tactful of real social situational "realities" than they had in the past as people experience what actually DOES happen.
Although, and this doesn't matter in the scope of the conversation, I have never really been a big chatter, nor have I ever had sex with anybody over the 'net. Local BBSes, well, that's another story. I don't know whether a lot of people are really surprised or expect a different kind of fascination because "Internet people" have this romanticised image of "they're from another state/country/culture" that they wouldn't have otherwise been able to imagine being with if they were droll local hicks... and this is probably where some of the negative association is being perpetuated.
My best friend was raped a couple months ago. He (the rapist) lied about wanting to lose his virginity to her, and when that didn't work... She later learned that she was not his first, and though she's coping with it (probably better than I am), he has taken something from her that she'll never get back, and has hurt her in a way that I can never forgive. And she wasn't his only victim. In fact (invitation to prove me wrong), most rapists don't stop with just one. Is castration more barbaric than the crimes it would prevent? I believe that the best prevention is to talk to girls about rape, how to avoid dangerous situations, and recognize signs of a rapist's intent. That, and extensive martial arts training. But there is only so much one can do on the defensive side.
The cop that said that Internet users are all "sex-crazed" should get it straight. Even if porn and virtual sex is 50% of the net, that doesn't make everyone a pervert. What kind of detective is this? And to have the audacity to accuse her of lying? I know this stuff happens a lot, but its still incredibly evil. I suppose the guy is ticked off by women who claim to have been raped when it really was consensual, but i'm not sure how often that happens.
Where are internet conversations logged? IRC, ICQ, AIM, all logged?? Hmmmm... I don't know about that. But you guys will know more than I about that. (Not a big IRC fan)
Kind of a depressing story, but I hope Slashdot does a followup on what happens.
Anyone can say "this is a log of the chat session" and produce a manufactured log saying anything they want. I, in fact, have an "authentic log" of the session just described:
---Begin chat session--
Rapist-to-be: Hi.
Raped-to-be: Hi.
Rapist-to-be: So you wanna get together to make the two-backed beast?
Raped-to-be: Well, only if you give it to me rough. I mean really rough.
Rapist-to-be: Pick you up at 7?
Raped-to-be: Sure.
---End Chat Session---
Now what band of soap-opera-fanatic jurors are gonna be savvy enough to know that this was just made up? She needs an attorney who will argue that while logs can be manufactured and don't themselves constitute a credible defense, it's difficult to reconcile how her rapist was camped out on her sofa quaffing her Coors while she was being fed through a tube in the local body shop. Granted, DNA evidence will likely be brought into the matter, and we all know how unreliable THAT can be....
As incapable of critical analysis as jurors tend to be in this country (a biproduct of the defunct American educational system), I have no doubts the alleged offender's defense would stand up in court. Hell, he'd probably be entitled to a $10^7 defamation settlement.
About three years ago I went over to an ex-GF's house to watch a big game with her and to keep her company (folks out of town). I managed to surprise a burglar who had forced his way in and was in the process of raping her... (I *knew* that car was unfamilar)
The guy got five years w/out parole (from the judicial system) and three broken ribs/lacerations/broken arm (from me tackling him and throwing him down a flight of stairs.)
My exGF got a bunch of scars, and nightmares she'll have forever.
Hardly fair.
Yeah, a jury of rapists would make for a great
trial. No problem there.
--- Micah
I've worked with survivors of rape, and I have to say that the response of the cop is extremely typical. Many many women are afraid to go to the police for (a very well justified) fear of being revictimized. Most cops (and probably most men in general) will always doubt a rape survivors story. It sounds to me that in this case the cop was just searching for an excuse to discredit her, and as he was ignorant of the internet, he used that.
I would encourage your friend (if she feels comfortable doing it) to contact a local rape crisis center (if there is one in her area), most of them have advocates that will go with her to talk to the police, to the courts, as well as just to talk to her about healing.
--
Only men can end rape.
I've had the same thing happen to a friend of mine. He was a sleaze, but not a rapist. One day, the girl he was seeing, who had a history of mental illness, decided that he had raped her, and started threatening to press charges. She spread it all around town, and finally the guy was forced to leave, his reputation ruined and his life being threatened. I think there are a number of incidents where such things happen - where a woman decides afterwards that the sex was not concensual, etc. Which is unfortunate, because this abuse of the system makes it more difficult for women who have actually been violently assaulted and raped to have their story heard, and it ruins a lot of people'e lives.
First Rob thanks for posting soemthing like this. Second I am posting as AC becuase if you read the rest of my comment you will understand.
What is pointed out in this article is so true and so stereotypical. I am a male and I was accused of RAPING somebody once. Why, because her boyfriend came to knwo about it and she would rather ruin my life then ruin her relationship. Do you have any idea of the humiliation not to mention the time and the money lost because of such an accusation.
And then that ignorant police officer making those statements. If she has been hurt and that can be proven medically, it is not consensual sex and trust me I know, since I had to go through a trial to prove my innocence.
Does this mean that we all perverts and rapists and the dredge of society since we hang out on the "internt". Hell, if it was not for internet, I would not have a job. Will someone explain it to that ignoramoose who is running around tellign people he is there to serve and protect.
Mitch, I can only offer my sympathies for your friend because I have an idea of what she is going through. As for the rest who have their own ideas for the "kind of' people on the internet, all I have to say is "EDUCATION".
Sorry about the rant, but something in me just blew up. And if you made it this far, thanks for listening.
Back on topic: personally, I'd like to strangle the bastard who did this. Slowly.
Wanna know what really pisses me off, more than anything else? Sick people who do stupid unforgivable things like this, and how nice women are forced to be paranoid and afraid out of necessity. It's a sad state of affairs when a first date has to be in a public place, in broad daylight, and with a group of friends. Honestly, I think if someone ever attacked a woman in my presence, I'd kill him, or get put in the hospital trying. And if someone were to attack a girlfriend of mine, God himself wouldn't be able to help him.
I personally know two people who have been attacked. Thankfully, the first had the good sense to run and scream bloody murder, and her attacker took off. The second one was attacked by a drunk guy who entered the store where she worked. She shattered his knee (15 years of soccer does wonders for leg strength) in 4 places, and HE'S suing HER. Amazing. I wish she'd have gotten a second blow in before security tossed the guy from the store; she says he was pulled up off the floor just as her foot would have caught him in the side of the head. It's truely sad when a woman can be attacked, and then have the attacker win any type of sympathy at all as a victim. It doesn't mattter if she invites him in. Doesn't matter if she's drunk. Doesn't matter if she's butt naked. I honestly can't believe some of the morons above this post who seem to think so. It's just beyond me.
Personally, I'd like to see rapists and child molesters released to society, and all the police turn their backs for an hour. Jail or prision is too good for the animals that do these kinds of things.
To the person who wrote this: I hope your friend can learn to love. Just stay by her side, and make sure she knows that you'll always be there, and let God take care of the rest.
--
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Just lurking, thanks!
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Just lurking, thanks!
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Just lurking, thanks!
Agreed! One thing that many people don't seem to realize is that rape and fraud are risks that people have been taking in getting to know people long before the internet became an issue. Personal ads and penpal networks have always had these problems, but the media didn't make a big stink about it.
I've got mixed feelings about the attention the media does give such cases. Hopefully it will raise awareness so people will be more careful. On the downside, you get scary attitudes developing like the Sheriff mentioned in this article, by people who don't have a grasp of the full issue.
It is easy to conceal who you are through email or snail mail. It is foolhardy to assume that a person is safe, just because you think you know him from correspondence. But just because Kira489 was a little foolish doesn't make her at all responsible for the rape.
I for one think rapists (this one included) should be decapitated. The lower "head" for the first offense (plus prison, of course), and the upper head for the second.
minor nitpick: "weary" means tired, "wary" means cautious. I think you meant "wary" in your heading.
----
Open mind, insert foot.
Castration and then a nice shot in the back of the head, execution style. One less piece of shit on this cesspool of a planet.
Have a nice day!
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Your honor is perfectly understandishable.
Castration is the removal of the testicles, but testosterone is produced in the testicles, so by removing them, you are removing supply of testosterone, which is what I imagine plays a big part in the power and control aspect of rape.
All "peers" means in this sense is normal, every-day citizens, not some board of judges, elected/appointed by the governor or anything.
Sure, it'd be nice if say, this person that started the Melissa virus had a jury of computer geeks, or people that at least know what a macro is. But it won't happen.
Half the FOP (Fraternal Order of Police) lodges here in Maryland have websites, and private e-mail lists or bulletin boards for members. I've helped a couple of them set up their sites, and so far none of them have been sex maniacs.
There are plenty of 'net-hip cops out there, and more of them are getting online every year, so police like the ignorant one mentioned above will gradually get rarer.
--Robin Miller
Cheap Computing columnist
There exist people for whom one could make the argument that they deserve to be murdered. Nobody ever deserves to be raped.
Nobody ever deserves his favorite poodle to be painted green either, but it doesn't mean that painting poodles green is worse than a murder.
But doesn't the question that original statement answer looks bogus in the first place? Why should it matter, is rapist better than a murderer or worse?
Contrary to the popular belief, there indeed is no God.
You dare reduce the serious and violent act of rape to the level of the silly and annoying act of painting curly-haired toy dogs an odd color?
I merely point out the pointlessness of statements like this.
Contrary to the popular belief, there indeed is no God.
The statistic isn't 1 in 6 women is raped. The statistic is 1 in 6 women before college are sexually assulted. The other statistic is 1 in 3 women will be sexually assulted during their lifetime.
Sexual assult does not necessarily mean rape. Sexual assult can be anything perceived to be aggressive done in a sexual manner. Pinching a girl's butt while she walks by can be considered sexual assult.
Do you have any idea how hard it is to prove that someone was raped? It's basically one person's word against another and unless other parties come foward, there is no reason to believe that a woman is right and the man is wrong.
I've heard more than my fair share of stories about women who cry rape when their boyfriends find out they've cheated on them or the man they slept with breaks their heart.
The entire situation makes me sick.
--
The world is neither black nor white nor good nor evil, only many shades of CowboyNeal.
I've been on the Internet for almost 15 years, since the days when all the Internet was to me was an email gateway and a hacked-together list processor.
I can truly say that the Internet as a medium has given me some of the most rewarding relationships that a person could want. It is *definitely* a major part of my life, and anyone that says I'm defect for using the Internet as a social medium can kiss my ass and go back to dishing out snake oil as far as I'm concerned.
Which is why I feel that stories that inflame the net-rape cases really are dangerous. It only serves one purpose: to further propagate the rape meme through society.
IRC, E-mail, Newsgroups, ICQ - all of these mediums strip away a *lot* of barriers to social interaction that would not ordinarily allow people to get to know each other. It's so obvious that it feels droll to even bring it up - the Internet is an incredibly powerful social medium. I wouldn't know 3/4's of the people I know if I had to rely on modern social mechanisms to meet people and interact with them.
And no, I don't have sex with any of the people I've met online, but I am *very* close to a lot of them, and I would definitely consider some of my IRC friends to be among my best.
But it goes without saying that all this technology of interaction that is the Internet (with all its formalized and well engineered protocols) simply can't replace the *SAME* degree of protocol in real life social situations.
Yes, there *SHOULD* be a protocol for meeting someone online. Never make the first meeting alone, never put yourself in a situation where you're going to be alone with the other person in a (cause->effect) situation. You should *both* be causative in the meeting - in other words, on fair ground, with equal opportunity to break the connection if needed.
Hmm...
Perhaps, out of this Slashdot story, we engineers could actually *SUBMIT* a protocol? Why couldn't we get an RFC together for 'meeting online friends' and submit it?
A protocol is a protocol, and if *WE*, the *ENGINEERS* of the Internet, don't submit it - well we can hardly complain when the MASS MEDIA come in and define those 'protocols' for us in their terms.
Terms that are carefully calculated to create controversy, and sell ad space...
; -- the corruption of government starts with its secrets. a truly free people keep no secrets. --
The Detective was probably correct, at least from a jury's point of view. You get 13 non-geek "peers" up there and the guy who did the rape takes a walk. Sad but true.
Reason: the jury would believe all the TV movies they'd ever seen and have the same point of view as the detective. Call it media poisoning of our judicial system -- that's why juries are out of date; you can't expect people to make good decisions about things they don't know/don't care about/are already biased about. Hell, look at the OJ trial.
----
Every year during my review, I just pray the words "slashdot.org" aren't mentioned.
: It's no longer rape, it's just an inappropriate relationship. Just ask columnist Ellen Goodman.
It's no longer force, it's preconsensual intimacy (really!).
Do you have a url for that article?
A more permanent means of castration would be more effective. The form of chemical castration performed at that time required the man use drugs periodically to maintain his treatment; He stopped. IIRC.
[fuming about effing' liberals]...
Posted by u4ic-fx:
Also, i think it would be relavent to point out that this cop obviosly for whatever reason, feels he needs to intimidate the girl to ensure a conviction. From the original post it is obvious that the cop has little practical knowledge of irc/icq/webchats/ etc
As far as nerds being abused by cops, hell, who HAVN'T the police abused?
u4ic-fx - he who cary's the bigest stick, better watch out for the next guy
Posted by Aelfgifu:
I don't think this has any place on Slashdot. I could make up a similarily touching and horrific story next week, and submit it. It would include the innocent victim, who was so trusting with a person she met on the internet (a friend of mine, of course) and the cops who were so mean and unfeeling.
Yes, it happens. 1 out of every 3 women will be sexually assaulted at least once in her lifetime. But I don't think hearsay stories (since this is his friend, and he is repeating what he heard about how the cops behaved, etc.) will do any good is stopping assaults.
Giving women the sense to be wary and cautious (whether in a chat room or bar room) and stand up for their right to be heard will help. How about giving girls enough self-esteem to where they aren't looking for love and acceptance from some anonymous ASCII person? Or if she is going to meet this person, how about in a safe and public place? Or with friends!
It is so frustrating to me that women (my friends! my family!) are so stupid and guilable that they just open themselves up to danger, and then wonder why.
Before anyone flames me (if anyone even reads these) Yes, I have done stupid things and put myself in danger in my stupid youth. And yes, I have paid the consequences, and was too afraid to seek help. This is what frustrated me so. You can't control what happens to you--you could be coming out of Chuck E Cheese and be attacked--but you can be cautious, and hope that you can be the other 2 women who aren't living with the aftermath of a sexual assault.
Heather
Posted by Aelfgifu:
Doubt it would stop anyone from carrying out a rape. Remember, castration is removing the testicles, not the penis. And even if you did remove the penis, one could always use something else. Remember, rape is about PowerandCONTROL not getting off.
Posted by Kwizatz Aderach:
One in six women raped or harassed befor high school ?!? Wow, i'm glad I don't live in the US...
Posted by nernin:
you may be leery of "absurd crime stats" but think about how many women you know have been raped. i only know 2 who havent. total. of every single woman i know/have known. how many do i know who have reported their rape? none.
how many of these women have been raped more than once? more than half.
how many times have i been raped? more than five.
how many times have i reported it? none.
arguing about the validity and reliability of these stats is not the point.
to serve the need of a lobbying group? stopping violence against more than half the population is a lobbying group? thats an interesting concept.
this is not a statistical issue. this is a day-to-day reality for *at least* one woman you know. if you think otherwise, then you haven't been listening.
*e.
Posted by thex:
To say that death is preferable to a life of pain is just stupid. Most of us live with pain every day, but not all of us are victims. Even rapists can be victims, does that mean they have a right to hurt others?
Spiritual dogma aside, you can recover from the trauma and shame of rape. You can rebuild your self-esteem and help others rebuild theirs. You can become stronger for having been harmed. It is hard to see how you can recover from murder.
Anybody who says death is better than life doesn't value life enough. But then again, most of them probably spend their entire lives avoiding pain, so what would they know about growing through it?
Where is the effort to reach out to the boy who has not yet raped? Shall we leave him to suffer alone? Perhaps it is too hard. Perhaps we should just punish and comfort. Righteousness takes much less effort than empathy. Punishment is a cheap alternative to justice.
Show me someone who wants to live, and I will show you someone who has already left behind the stigma of 'the victim'. Show me someone prepared to be hurt again, knowing better than most how much it can hurt, and I will show you the courage that idealogues will never know.
peace, love, unity, respect
thex
Posted by Stephen "The Carp" Carpenter:
Its amazing hat people are so ignorant.
My current girlfriend and I live together...
we met on "The Internet". A co-worker of
mine met his wife "On the internet"
(amazingly on the same online service that
I met my girlfriend...tho 7 years
apart)
I have met a total of about 5 people "From the
net". Course one of them was scared of meeting
me...(for the reasons of this story above)
but things have always gone well.
Posted by Stephen "The Carp" Carpenter:
It is amazing what people get away with
in our society.
Every day women are brutally raped yet...we
would rather expend money and respouces
on drug raids and "Consensual crimes" rather
than going after violent criminals.
Then we have the actual attitude towards rape.
We have the "but she was asking for it" group
who either don't believe her or just don't care.
Then we have people who cheapen the word
rape by applying it to consensual sex...
because they were drunk/stoned/whatever and
don't want to take responsibility for their
actions.
The whol eidea just makes me sick. But more so
that people use it to attack the "internet"
I mean, for every person who preys on
netizens...there are many more rapists out in
the real world who don't need to use a computer
to find their prey.
I think that it is time that we as a society stop
trying to blame the net and actually do something.
Posted by u4ic-fx:
Not that I dont feel sympathy and compassion for the victims of such incidents, but realistically
a little common sense go's a long way, there are many guidelines for meeting people from the internet and unfortunatly, untill you actually meet that person, you'll never know if anything of what they've said is true, that being said
for those who will continue to find new friends online and meet them irl here are a few common sense things to take into consideration..
talk on the phone first, before meeting someone for the first time, hearing their voice will give you an indication of whether or not they are who/what they say they are ie a 40 year old claiming to be 18 etc
insist on a meeting in a public place, with your friends and their friends ie a coffee shop
make sure atleast several people online have given u "references" about the person..
yeah its being a bit paranoid, but hey, better to be paranoid, than a rape/kidnapping victim,
for complete lists of suggested idea's check a search engine for bdsm sites (yeah its off topic) but they usually have a faq about saftey for meeting someone for the first time.. its not totally relevant but alot of the concepts cross over, above all think with your brain, not your sexdrive
Don't look so shocked. You knew this already.
Show-off? Huh? I'm simply saying what everyone else already knows. It's relevant and on-topic; what's your gripe?
Lots of "freaks" respect concerns about safety and consent more than lots of "normal people". Perhaps you need some more precise insults.
--
Xenu loves you!
:) ALL HAIL BRAK, indeed.
:)
Back on the BBSes, I never saw the point of cybersex, and generally if I chatted, I'd chat with people I already knew in RL, or people I'd probably never meet.
Yep, with every medium there are new dangers, but these are still the same people. If Ann Landers warns all the moralistic people away from the Internet, then she might have a self-fulfilling prophecy on her hands. Not that I ever listened to her...
Let Brak do the credits!
pb Reply or e-mail; don't vaguely moderate.
We? I treat people like people.
I live in a relatively free and democratic society, if you don't want to be dominated, then stand up for yourself. If you never learned how, then I'm sorry.
Not everyone has good parents, or learns all the right lessons, but some of us learn how to think for ourselves, strive for what we want, and avoid the battles that don't need to be fought.
Personally, I'm an Atheist, because I never saw the point in religion. I'm not terribly aggressive because I don't see how that would get me what I want out of life. I don't personally understand rape because (a) I don't have relationships with people I don't love and (b) I'd never want to do that to someone I love. Make your own morals and live by them, because if you don't know what you want, you're already in trouble.
I share the wish for swift justice in cases where the brutality is obvious, but I can't blame society for everything. If you want to be treated like a person, act like one, and don't put up with people who can't do the same.
(In this case, sue the people who let their stereotypes get in the way of their job, and rely on support from whatever friends you have. Then try to put the past behind you. Sometimes good people end up in horrible situations, and it can take a long time to recover from them.)
pb Reply or e-mail; don't vaguely moderate.
He was referring to the openness phenomenom caused by the net.
The detective, I mean.
I'd give my left arm to see him produce a transcript of all her chat sessions on the net.
Of course, I understand fully why catching the cop in his lie wasn't at the forefront of her mind, but, God, he's done her an incredible disservice and should be held accountable for having done so.
To my sense of justice, he's almost an accessory after the fact. Harboring a fugitive...
Pisses me off.
Don Negro
Don Negro
Perl 6 will give you the big knob. -- Larry Wall
I'm very sorry to hear of what happened to your friend. My heartfelt sympathies. I hope she gets that bastard - and the asshole cop/detective too. I would file a complaint against him, even.
Use common sense when meeting strangers - whether through the Internet or not - it really doesn't matter HOW you made initial contact - but rather in the first face-to-face meeting. For Gods sake, do it in a public place! Never invite someone to your house or even tell them where you live!
You can bet they monitor if not log allllll that shit...
...in our own ways. Of course, there are definate head cases out there, but thankfully, the people I've met online are all wonderful people.
I'd rip that cop a new one and then see him in court. That was completely rude, uncalled for and unprofessional in every sense.
...also often "limit" it's visitors to a relatively local area.
Hell, I've been abusing cops as long as I've been a geek... Guess it came from the 80's mohawk/punk days. :)
Seems you have a new friend... :)
I never said I condoned it... Nor did I say that AOL was in relation to this story... ;>
However, I suggest you have a parent, a friend or a taxi take you to and from said meeting place. Once you're in the car alone with him, you're at his mercy.
Find out what he's really like first, perhaps through a few dates. You'll know pretty quickly if he's a schmo or not.
Now, correct me if I'm wrong, but who the hell are you to determine who/what is "normal" and what is not? It would seem that a rather large number of people here have met their SO online or at least the Internet had some hand in it.
I am no exception.
I am a whack job, but I love it.
There is no such thing as normal. Unless of course, you love statistics. Then there's an average. But not a normal.
Having been in the "dating game" as much as the next guy, I'd rather meet someone online than in a bar any day, thank you.
Just because you're not logging your MUD's conversations doesn't mean that no one is. There are these things called sniffers, y'see.... ;)
...". That kind of statement is just a scare tactic toward his victim.
Of course, I agree with you about the cop's statements "All this stuff is logged, and I have access to the logs!! And if I find out you even hugged him
I think the sooner we realize that cops are of no real benefit for protecting individuals and take it upon ourselves, the better. I, too, speak from experience.
Things are rather different for the rape victim.
Matthew.
I've learned my lesson well. I now only meet groups of people with other groups of people that I already know. Gathers are relatively safe. Also if you're meeting a potential sexual partner, it may not be a bad idea to have a couple friends meet first with the new person. Sex on a first date generally isn't a good idea anyway.
Clinton made me a Republican. Bush made me a Libertarian. Trump is making me question reality.
I've found that I am very open on the net, but after using the internet for, hmm, 5-6 years, I've become a lot more open in real life, as well. It might just be me growing up, but the way I was headed, I couldn't talk to anyone about anything. So, I guess, as far as I'm concerned, there isn't so much a split between internet personalities and real-life personalities...
Run a pencil-and-paper RPG campaign with your far-off friends: Gametable!
This is especially true when the rapist uses weapon in order to get the wictim to submiss. If
the wictim submisses, I think that it often means the the wictim would rather be raped that killed
or mutilated.
And I thought that civilized world had left the notion of corporal punishment. But of course I forgot that it is still legal to spank children in USA -- so I shouldn't be so surprised that these kind of opinions are so common in USA. BTW - I am sure that be whackkin the arms of those who drive under the influence of alcohol, we could prevent many of repeated acts of driving under influence of alcohol.
Torture can take long time and include raping. And you can always kill yourself after the rape if you really feel that life after rape is not worth living. In fact -- in many muslim countries the relatives of raped girls do exactly that -- killing the victims of rape for the honour of the family.
I cannot but agree with everything exposed in this article. I have myself met a great many people in person that I've met before in the 'net (including my fiancé). It is not much more different than meeting people by any other means. Why people fail to recognise that those cases where someone gets raped by some sex maniac from the 'net are due to the victim having being too naive just escapes me.
In Soviet Russia, Jesus asks: "What Would You Do?"
You've proven the anthesis of your argument.
Phone users aren't given a bad name by crank callers because crank callers have a different label. No one generalizes the actions of crank callers to the actions of the phone using population as a whole.
"L'IT c'est moi!"
Whatever happened to the notion of a "jury of one's PEERS"?
In Liberty, Rene
I'm still trying to figure out how you get to know someone without spending time with them. I'm sure I'm coming across as bitter.
I think the cautionary aspect of the tale is not so much about rape (don't bring strangers home on the first date, duh). It's about nerds being a new minority for cops to abuse.
When dealing with cops, it's sometime best to follow the Church of The Subgenius motto:"Act like a Dumbshit and they'll treat you as an equal."
Just as it is in a woman's interests not to put herself in situations where she can be rapes even though no on deserves to be raped, it is in a man's interest not to put himself in a situation where he will be falsely accused.
I didn't think that you could be disbarred for sarcasm.
It's not possible to avoid anything entirely, but you can reduce your chances.
How can you know whether someone is going to falsely accuse you of rape? Well, you could get to know them before you have sex. The poster who started this thread had sex with a girl who had a jealous boyfriend. Hmmm... emotionally dysfunctional and dishonest -- this is nature's way of saying "keep it in your pants."
The fact is, you can spot the crazy ones (usually). Trust your intuition, instincts, "gut feelings" or whatever. This "inner voice" has been brought to you by millions of years of evolution to alert you of danger that may not be obvious from first-order analysis.
Would you tell a woman not to put herself in a position where she will be falsely accused?
Of course, but women are rarely accused of rape at all, much less falsely. Ironically, the two women I know who were raped were actually raped by other women. It's actually worse for them, because people don't take their trauma as seriously.
Hey, how about forming a meaningful, trusting relationship over a period long enough to evaluate whether a woman's playing with a full deck? Can your microscopic brain grasp this concept?
I guess all of us should kill ourselves... espically us Christian/white/conservative/males. we cause all the pain in the world ya know.
I can't speak for the world, but your post has certainly caused me pain.
If you read what you are disagreeing with, you'll find that the author of that said that 1 in 6 college students will be raped before graduation. The usual 1 in 3 statistic refers to people overall ... college students are younger on average than the general population and are therefore less likely to have been raped .... yet.
If you want to be less leary of the statistics, do some research for yourself. I agree that any number like this is subject to a variety of forms of statistical bias, but you will find, if you do the research, that 1 in 3 is about the right order of magnitude no matter how you define the problem.
It is also consistent with my personal experience.
I'm a nature photographer.
You are absolutely right that I misread
the quote. Thanks for pointing this out
to me.
Rereading it, I disbelieve 1-in-6, it is,
in my experience, way too low.
(I'll stick by my statement that comparing
the general population with the general
college population will give you vastly
different results, however, and that was
the point I was originally trying to make.)
Thanks!
-Joe
I'm a nature photographer.
| It was crazy... she couldn't even sign on to
... Avogadro's number.
| check her mail without all of these messages
| popping up from strange guys asking
| her what she was up to. She was almost
| completely turned off to the internet from this
| experience.
This reminds me of what I went through as a freshman in college. Everybody was given a mainframe account - and among its uses were such niceties as email and (local) chat.
Unfortunately for me, the login ID I was given ( "charlet" ) could apparently be mistaken by freshmen in drunken stupors for a "female" ID. (stands for CHARLEs Taylor). Eventually, I just turned off the chat/messages features altogether and told my friends to just send e-mail.
I can imagine AOL being worse by about a factor of
-- Rick
First let me give a thanks to Rob for posting this story. It certainly doesn't hurt to have an article with some substance to it.
This is the first time I've ever heard an something like what the police officer expressed. How many people really think this of us? Don't people realize that the people on the internet are the same people that exist everywhere else, but perhaps with animinity knocking down a few walls (Note to self: ask Rob to add a spell checker...).
I remember when one of my aunts first got on the internet. She enjoyed those chat rooms, using that Microsoft video chat I can't recall the name of at this moment. My cousin, who should have known better, told her to join the adult groups so as not to have 10 year olds constantly trying to talk to her.
When I next saw her, she asked if sex was all anybody on the net was interested in. Having been a frequent user of IRC and generally avoiding the sex groups, I was wondering why she was having such a hard time doing so. I wonder how many others make the same sort of mistake.
Rape is not worse than murder. Give me a break. I am _not_ trivializing rape but I get tired of people trivializing murder.
Trivializing murder is also an argument often used by death penalty supporters and it annoys the hell out of me. People seem to VASTLY underestimate the will to live.
For example, to take your scenario of torture and legs and arms being cut off, I would say that yes that would be much preferable to being killed.
Nonsense. If the author thought she would be better off dead she would be dead. Period. Don't underestimate the will of people (and other living beings for that matter) to live, even in what seems to us to be the most miserable circumstances.
And you don't know what you're talking about. I'm so sick of people trivializing the act of taking someones life.
A rape victim's life may be very bad for some time after, or even for the rest of their life, but unless they prove it by commiting suicide, they'd rather live their life than be killed.
Your friend needs to get out a little more often! ;)
Someone already touched upon the anonymity/masq effect of the text-based chat, and the effects of these things are profound. Road-rage springs out of a very similar thing, with our cars becoming our masqs, and every strange masq an enemy/victim until proven otherwise.
**>>BELCH
The only time I persue, let alone enjoy, any form of on-line chat is when the qroup in question is seriously involved in an engrossing persuit, like Quake.
;)
Comments are usually brief, humorous and punctuated by rounds of heavy artillery. What more is there?
The few irc/chat rooms I've experienced are entertaining ONLY (to me) on the level of dismally entrancing spectacle, like a car accident. I get enuff of that here on Slashdot, so why bother?
**>>BELCH
If the internet were not involved none of these cases of a 14 year old flying out to be with some man they think they love would make anything mor ethan the local news. There seems to be this inherent assumption that there are more perverts, rapists, child molesters, or whatever on the internet than there are in society at large. But, there is no good evidence one way or another that I have found that isn't anecdotal. So, here is my proposed challenge to the Slashdot effect.
Let's find a good study one or the shows one way or the other whether there is a greater or lower occurrence of perverts, rapists, child molesters, with internet ties than without. I bet any difference would be statistically insignificant.
The study also should compensate for the differences between the people who are on the on the internet vs not. For example: the is a minimum affluence level for hte internet where the person has to at least be able to afford a computer and internet connection.
Personally, though, I think at age 14 it's pretty ridiculous to think someones parents would give consent.
leapfrog, the mediocre.
<sarcasm>
But capital punishment is a powerful deterrant. Don't you think that if that was the punishment for convicted murder that the amount of murders would drop?
</sarcasm>
Looked at the number of people sitting on death row lately...
Rapists and Murderers are {mostly} mentally ill. Maybe they need to be locked up *and* 'reprogrammed' for better interaction with society. But don't think that a 'big stick' deterrant will influence someone who is mentally unhinged already.
And if the police even APPEAR to not support her case she should sue them. This officer is unfit for duty in the same way as the judge who in a rape case allows the defenses "what she was wearing provoked me" or "everybody knows she is a slut... she wanted it even if she doesn't admit it".
It's just amazing to me the preconcieved notions the ignorant will carry around with them. It's depressing to know things will not get better, and we'll never have a completely computer-literate or even literate world. I'm sick of people, especially parents/breeders, looking for scapegoats (Internet, Judas Priest, Beavis and/or Butthead) instead of instilling responsibility in their offspring. I have no idea how old the victim is here, but the people of this town should demand an apology from the officer for the comments he made to her.
"The Constitution admittedly has a few defects and blemishes, but it still seems a hell of a lot better than the system we have now."
Send your friends messages of love at fuck-you.org
No, it says "raped or harassed" (my emphasis. I suspect that rape accounts for a quite small fraction of that 1/6. That makes it quite a misleading statistic. How about separating the two?
Here in the Central Valley of California we have been dealing with the murder of the tree female tourists near Yosimite. It is so sad and senseless and hard to deal with. Why were these women killed? Did they do something wrong? Could they have prevented their deaths by doing soemthign else? Even in your friend's case, could she have done something different to preven her rape? Certainly she could have avoided the meeting but that is an observation of hindsight.
Unfortunately, there is no way to predict why these things happen. There are people who make stupid decisions all the time and nothing bad seems to happen. There are people who take every precaution and use very good common sense who are then brutally murdered or worse. If any comfort is available to the victims and their families let me say that usually there was little that could be done to prevent the event. Violent crimes such as these are usually perpetrated for reasons that the victems can do nothing about and have little influence on.
It is up to us as a society to support the victems and their families and make sure they aren't blamed for their own tradgedies. We must not succumb to the easy temptation to look for a reason behind every event. There are some things that just aren't explainable in terms most of us understand. All we can do is offer grace and compassion for the victems and support their desires for justice.
could we start an internet petition and put it on the writer's homepage so that she could show it to a congressperson/senator (they might not get stuff done in washington dc, but they can in their hometowns), and see if the collective power of /. could have some pull?
Wow... now _here's_ a nice philosophical argument to waste an afternoon on... :-)
I think it _is_, and my reason, hard-boiledly pragmatic as it is, is that, to the person attacked, murder happens, and then it's over.
Rape, OTOH, is the gift that keeps on giving.
Cheers,
The idea of meeting people online has sparked many discussions among my group of friends this year. My roommate sees nothing wrong with meeting others in chat rooms, and will argue until he is blue in the face that it is no different than meeting people out in "the real world." Now I'm not a chat person myself...the extent of my Internet socialization is the occasional game of bridge on Yahoo! where I will exchange greetings with those I am playing with as a matter of courtesy.
If I were to ever become the chat room type, I think I could keep myself limited to using it for informational purposes. That is, I see IRC and similar things as fine forums for collaboration, catching up with friends from far away, etc. I personally would never use it to try and meet others to establish relationships that would eventually result in a face-to-face meeting.
The whole idea makes me quite leery, actually. I understand that there are a lot of you out there who have "success" stories, and that it has turned out to be a good experience. That's great, and you are fortunate. But please, spare me the details...because I find personal anecdotes used as support of a view to be largely worthless and a very weak form of argument. Your personal experiences do not extrapolate to the whole situation. Until we see a substantive study by a research group of sociologists, psychologists, or whoever is qualified to do such a thing, we should really withhold judgment about this behavior. I cannot say it is better or worse than meeting people in real life, only that I have a gut feeling about it that I cannot ignore.
Several generations ago it was common for marriages to be arranged, and it still happens in some societies. Decisions were made for people based on socio-economic status and reputation, not on the chemistry two young people established. In these times we are used to the idea that in most cases, we need to get a complete picture of a person before we consider embarking on a serious relationship. Personality, looks, intelligence, habits--some or all of these are important to all of us. That was a major change in the way people met and decided to spend the rest of their lives with each other. What I wonder is what the growing number of people online will do to this process. I think we should all be patient with it and be extra careful until we have a sense of the wider implications and the trends.
nice article i gotta say.
i'd have to agree completely that *MOST* people on the internet aren't sex crazed maniacs. And where does this cop get off saying that all chats on the Internet are logged? what kind of bs is that??
--Dave
No more questions. You go to meet your maker, or whatever your religious beliefs are.
This time, I rape you. I force you to submit your most private parts to me, against your will. I force you to lie there; maybe I tie you down, maybe I have enough of an advantage over you, size -wise, that I don't have to.
I take away your trust in men, I take away your self respect, I take away your self-image.
I cause you to constantly wonder if it really was your fault. I tell you you wanted it, so it must be your fault.
You have to live with this every day. I took away your sexual/emotional/physical comfort and replaced it with fear, trepidation, anger, and emptiness. You may never recover. You might live in fear forever.
And it's hell...
And I go on and do it again and again, because I want to. It's not all like TV, where the woman that was raped is hard-core, someone who is willing to stick up for herself, go to court, and send that guy off to jail.
Wake up, guys. You have no idea what you're dealing with.
--Mandi
Anyone who says they would prefer to be murdered than raped has the same wiring problems rapists have. It's macho bullshit. Death is irreversible. People can and do recover from rape.
If I had to choose between being raped and being murdered, I would pick the rape. And I'm sure my friends and family would rather have me alive and raped than dead and gone forever.
Seriously, THINK about it. Would you prefer your loved ones to be raped or murdered? "Well, I really miss my daughter, but at least she wasn't raped" -- get REAL.
Just have to remember the traps when you're putting in that new Empeg, or paying someone else to do it for you...
The only real problem is that the prick'll bleed all over the inside of your car.
Anyone remember the car security system from the beginning of RoboCop? *bzzzzzzrrrzzzrrrzap* *thud* *smoke*
A host is a host from coast to coast...
Unless it's down, or slow, or fails to POST!
I generously make the assumption that Mitch
passed third grade) not having learned to spell
experience, I understand how Mitch
would give this friend a pass on simple common
sense.
From these two sentences it would appear that
the rapist magically appeared in her house.
How did the rapist get there?
---------------------------------
"The Internet interprets censorship as damage,
The facts matter.
Otherwise, we have ``mob rule''. Lynchings.
War.
Certainly, rapists ought to be punished.
Just as certain, the universe punishes
stupidity.
Confucius say ``Those who invite Tiger to
lunch, are.''
---------------------------------
"The Internet interprets censorship as damage,
logan
In our legal system, you don't have to convince the detective to bring charges, you need to convince the DA. The detective was a real asshole to Kira. She should file a complaint against him with his supervisor, going up the food chain until she gets someone to listen.
The fact that she may or may not have hugged this person online is beside the point. A woman is allowed in this country (USA) to say no at *ANY* time (as is the man). Anybody that tells you different has their head up their ass. It may take a while to get people to realize this.
Also, your friend can also file suit in a civil court against her attackers and against the DA for not bringing charges.
Just cause it is the internet doesn't make it right. That's like saying that a woman asked to
be raped for wearing a skirt. Total bullsh*t.
Indeed, it seems that many people are so much less introverted when conversing upon the 'net that they don't really take heed to the fact that there is a real person on the end of the conversation. They'll spill their guts about anything and everything, and often telling the things about their personal lives we don't want to hear.
Through many different ways I've met people from online games, IRC, etc and despite the fact that the conversations were purely ASCII, using all those characters like (* ! $ _ etc) help to emphasize sarcasm, humor, sadness, etc. And many times, you really can get a good idea whether or not the person you're speaking (typing) to on the other end is really who they say they are, or if they're just "blowing smoke up your ass".
For example, I'll describe to you someone who I've worked with a bit, and have known only via the web. He runs some websites, and I occasionally write small, custom Perl scripts for his sites. Now, when first meeting him I found that he was 15 years old. Okay, that's fine. I can respect anybody as long as they can be somewhat mature whilst conversing and avoid talking like a "warez d00d'. But then he goes on to tell all sorts of tall tales. They're not all impossible or unlikely, but take them all together and you see what I mean. A few of them are:
His dad makes $350,000 per year. (not hard to believe all by itself)
He makes literally thousands of dollars per month without hardly any effort because he runs all of his porn sites so well. (Wow, thousands? that's some site!)(
He expresses his concern about being able to pay me for my scripts (very inexpensive), yet says he's got this really expensive sports car. (strange finances, fast cars?)
Talks way too much about how many "girlfriends" he's got and how often he's "getting a piece". (*UGH* like I care or need to know)
And you get the idea. Why do people try so hard to impress others on the Internet? Or in any other way, for that matter? Shit, I've always been more impressed by a simple friendliness and honesty than tall tales of money & sex. If I find a person whom I can hold a "geek-ish" conversation with, that's enough for me. I'm not interested in their personal lives' details that supposedly describe how popular they are or how successful they are.
Give me some simple intelligent feedback amongst all the noise on the net. Then I'll be impressed.
I only post comments when someone on the internet is wrong.
And you think people make a full recovery from rape? Have some personal experience to share?
Deirdre writes: "You miss the obvious: most of the "women" acting like "sluts" online are men."
Yeah, that's surely probable. (I don't know; I've never IRC'ed, only ICQ-chatted online with a few people I've met in newsgroups.)
But I'd guess it's also possible that some girls are taking the opportunity, protected by (what they at least percieve to be) the safe anonymity of the 'Net, to act out a lot more brashly than they normally would -- precisely *because* women are supposed to be such demure and chaste creatures (lest they be "asking for it").
If society's expectations in "real life" were to become a little more realistic, those girls would perhaps act a little more daringly IRL without endangering their reputations (and above all, not fearing that they'd be accused of "asking for it" in "meatspace"). But since society's expectations of "correct" behaviour for women are *not* realistic, some girls act out their "wilder side" in on-line conversations in stead; and since that's just a compensation for a problem with the whole *world* they live in, they may tend to over-act a little.
Just a guess, but it seems plausible to me.
Christian R. Conrad
Christian R. Conrad
MY opinions, not my employer's - Hedengren, Finland.
Christian R. Conrad
mail me at iki.fi ; same user ID as here
Lx writes:
/. is for, IMO.
/., so what do you *expect*?!?
"I can't see any link this has to the net at all, frankly. One slimeball, somewhere, has, according to someone else, somewhere, a misconception about the internet, and about rape. That was about a paragraph of the whole story,"
Yeah, but that was the main *point* of the story: That this dumb-ass dick thought the internet and rape are inextricably *linked* somehow. (The fact that it's only a paragraph of the whole story is neither here nor there -- a short and simple point can be put shortly and simply. And the rest of the story is the necessary background; the point being shorter than the background is only natural and shouldn't be a problem, except to the illiterate.)
That's very much news for Internet nerds, I would think -- or do you *like* being thought of as a rapist just because you're on the 'Net? No? Didn't think so... And neither do I. So the question becomes, what can be done about it? That is precisely the kind of discussion
"and we're not even told the story to the finish! Was the situation resolved? What was the man's story?"
Uh, I got the impression that the case -- as well as any action Kira might take against the clueless dick -- is still pending. But maybe it's my reading comprehension that's deficient.
"I don't doubt that these events occurred, but it's simply playing on people's emotions to post such a one-sided story."
Yeah, let's invite Microsoft to post rebuttals to every story about *their* egregious behaviour too, and not dignify the stories by giving them any attention until Microsoft acknowledges them...
Silly, right?
Often, we can discuss rationally even though we have only one side to go on, because we know the parties from before and already have an opinion about them. In other cases, even if it later turns out that the facts were wrong, it doesn't invalidate the discussion but just makes it hypothetical: The conclusions would still be the correct ones, *if* the facts were this or that. And in this case, I think the story had such ample background precisely so we sould be able to judge its plausibility better for ourselves.
"And, as you can see, all it produced was bickering about rape, and very little about the internet, the supposed link it had."
Either you're using the wrong score level, or the good posts were posted, and active moderating took place, after you posted that but before I replied -- I've seen quite a lot of good thoughtful posts on what I percieve to be the *real* issue. Sure there are a lot of adolescent-seeming comments too; but this is
Christian R. Conrad
Christian R. Conrad
MY opinions, not my employer's - Hedengren, Finland.
Christian R. Conrad
mail me at iki.fi ; same user ID as here
Of course it goes without saying that anyone should be careful about meeting anyone whose origins and crudentials are dubious.
/. is sufficient to determine guilt in such a serious matter.
That said, I hardly doubt that a posting on
I am sorry your friend was hurt, but like the law, I must remain dispassionate. If you simply came here to vent or fish for sympathy, you'll probably feel satisfied. If you want me to tell you who is guilty and who is innocent - that is left to the legal system.
I'm not sure what compelled you to post this - it really is cheap button-pushing.
When I was a student the quoted stat was 1 in 3. You say 1 in 6. Thats a very large margin of error. How could both be right?
This is why I am leary of these absurd crime statisitcs. Most of them lump in a high number of unreported criminal activity simply because they "assume" its happening even if it isn't reported.
I obviously believe violence against women is morally reprehensible. I also believe that those statistics are generated to serve a need, or more typically, a lobbying group.
Your protest is quite droll. Do phone users get upset thinking that crank callers are giving them a bad name?
It bothers me very little that a detective thinks all internet users are perverts.
...it's quite easy for the "reverse" rape to occur. Read the post above about the nature of rape (ie, it's about Power and Control, NOT sex).
You also assume that the man can always leave. Not so. While the average US male is larger and stronger than the average US female, there are huge chunks of society where this is not true. Hell, I'm a strong, 6' guy, and I used to date a 5" 4' girl who could kick my ass if she wanted to.
As you note, rape doesn't have to include intercourse. Would I consider it rape if someone forced me to go down on them? You bet. It's even quite possible to keep a man erect without "normal" sexual stimulation. As your local dominatrix about that. I wouldn't know. Also, ever considered that the woman might be using other "aids" in the rape (ie, something long and round...)
Rape is about the worst thing you can do to another person. Unfortunately, in this country (the US), it's a crime that is mixed with sex, which we don't deal well with as a society. The result is a total mess, from all sides. If we're lucky, maybe we can get to the point where people who force sex on others get their just rewards, and those who cry "rape" as a cover for their other problems get ostricized as they deserve for crying wolf over such a serious charge.
-Erik
There are always four sides to every story: your side, their side, the truth, and what really happened.
I have met people from the net, but the only really successful meetings were those people where there WERE no expectations of liasions or anything even vaguely romantic and/or sexual. I think the whole concept of net->analog relationships is just a Bad Idea (tm).
There's WAY too much potential for self-deception as well as deception by the other party.
_Deirdre
I've been raped. I disagree that it necessarily stays with you the rest of your life. Yes, the guy was a scumbag. Yes, you become more careful. I don't think it really hangs around as much as you think. Of course, it has been a few years.
It has made me more careful, which is why when a net.friend offered to pick me up at the airport, I had my former boyfriend tag along with him. Fortunately, they knew each other (which was odd enough!).
_Deirdre
You miss the obvious: most of the "women" acting like "sluts" online are men. Usually 15-year-old boys (speaking from having spent WAY too much time online).
_Deirdre
Agreed. I've seen REAL love blossomming in chat rooms. They were in love for 2 yrs, yet they have seen each other ONLY ONCE -- because one is Japanese living in US and another is Hong Kong people moved to UK. When they broke up, the girl's very sad (I'm more familiar with her).
:)
And in another case, a girl knows her boyfriend thru ICQ. Just a month... and they are in love. Since then they like to go shopping, playing etc together.
The point that internet sex isn't to be believed is understandable... but it depends more on the persons involved. If they think there's no responsibility on the net and everybody can do what they like, disaster will follow soon. But if they're treating it seriously, happy ending isn't unimaginable.
Yes, being honest AND careful is what most people needed
- Maddog
I am his friend from work :)
I met my wife 8 years ago on the online service Delphi.
Delphi was not the 'net, though. It was started in Boston, and most of the people chatting there were local to the Boston area. We would get together for barbecues, parties, etc. all the time, so meeting face-to-face was not quite the leap for us that it is for IRC chatters today. You would generally know at least a few people who had met the person you were going to meet already.
I flew to the city where my future wife lived at that time, and we met at the airport. I suppose it was naive of us, but I don't think either of us had any reservations about meeting in person. It was obvious to both of us that our relationship was increasingly romantic, but we certainly weren't sex starved libido addicts. Without the net we certainly would not have met, but beyond that were differences in age and family background. The network allowed us to form a relationship based on our selves, which trancended our differences.
I realize that the 'net now is different from Delphi then. Widening access is changing the landscape on-line. Everyone needs to be aware of the risks involved, but I am sad for the loss of naivete and innocence . Without the openness and sense of community of the time I would be without the love of my life. I regret that anyone might miss out on the chance I had because of the actions of people like the sexual predator in this story.
fortunately i know noone that has been raped from online people, including all the people that i used to hang out in the chatrooms with... although most of them were old enough to know better, i still think that AOL should be wiped off the earth... bad security, ugly everything, put me in a small window and make me think i'm online type of program... plus they make it easy enough so that anyone that can type 4wpm can get online and get into anywhere... sorry people, but if you can't have half a brain about going online then you shouldn't be online.
:-)
secondly, i have friends in real life here that talk to people online... we (all friends of mine and their friends) have told them not to meet anyone without anyone else around... i know that if i found one of my friends raped, the person that would do it would have a hard time finding where they lived afterward... maybe even go off and drop them off somewhere in the hillbilly section of tenesee... i liked driving through there, why make it painful for me?
8Complex
I think this shows us something about the society that we live in. Though I don't agree that all internet users a sex craved maniacs, you do have to be careful out there. There are freaks everywhere in life. You just have to know how to protect yourself.
I did not mean to imply that all people who use the internet to meet others are freaks, or that all people how engage in virtual sex on the internet are freaks. But, people how use the internet to prey on others are. Along with all other the other rapists, child molesters and pedifiles out there in the world.
The only fitting punishment for rape is to cut it off.*
*******************************************
Superstition is a word the ignorant use to describe their ignorance. -Sifu
Yes,
* *
But castration is powerful deterrant. Don't you think if that was the punishment for convicted rape that the amount of rapes would drop?
******************************************
Superstition is a word the ignorant use to describe their ignorance. -Sifu
Who knows. I figure it's worth a shot though.*
If all I have to do is point people to a web site to make money then why not.
*******************************************
Superstition is a word the ignorant use to describe their ignorance. -Sifu
I disagree. I think it would make alot of people think twice. For things like date or gang rape I think alot of people would think twice about it. If if even saves one person from rape then it's worth it. Or, since it's the general consensus that rape is worse than murder who not just make it punishable by capital punishment? That takes care of the CONTROL argument.
********************************************
Superstition is a word the ignorant use to describe their ignorance. -Sifu
Interesting typo in the topic.
The only difference, ONLY difference at all when meeting someone from the net vs. someone from, say, a bar, is that you are more at ease from having conversed with them on several occasions.
I used to be the road-warrior service technician for a company, I made 44 flights in one year. I knew atleast one person to meet in every region they sent me to. I met literally dozens of net friends. I'm a 290lb 6'3 male, so I don't figure on getting raped by anyone, but they were all more or less what they were like online. Go figure.
With some of them, we got along better in real life. Others, we didn't relate quite as well in real life.
It's a simple rule of thumb. You meet just as many psychopaths online as you do in real life. Some of them are more obvious online, and some of them are more obvious in real life. Having known someone both online and in real life gives you a lot of insight into what makes them tick, but you should still be cautious.
I think people definately should meet people in real life after knowing them online. Take for instance the issue of romance. Eventually it has to come to a head. The two of you will either not hit it off in real life, or find that you work even better in real life, or just call the whole thing off. It's better to figure out exactly what your relationship with someone is, than to just let it fester on endlessly. But just like picking someone up from a bar, or from work, or the gym, don't take 'em upstairs until you're sure you know them.
This is just like television, only you can see much further.
Heard something on the news recently; a guy who'd been convicted of of rape multiple times was chemically castrated, as part of his sentence. was controversial, at the time, indeed.
Following his release from prison, he raped again.
Yeah, painful events in life are often times deterrents. It _might_ deter some rapists, but for those who have already committed rape and are castrated, there is no guarantee that it will prevent them from raping again. I guess some nice punishments for a rapist could be: - You commit rape, your right hand will be blown off via shotgun and then cauterized by red hot steel. - You repeat offense, you will have your left hand ground off and partially cauterized with red hot metal and finished off with salt. (Grinding is achieved via a belt sander applied in no less than 100 applications.) - You repeat offense yet again, you will then be treated to honey and red ants in the privates region until castration, death, or 8 hours. Whichever is longer or results in death. I'm pretty sure the above punishments should deter crimes in most any cases once word gets around.
- Wing
- Reap the fires of the soul.
- Harvest the passion of life.
- Wing
- Reap the fires of the soul.
- Harvest the passion of life.
First off, I seriously hope that Kira will be able to recover from her ordeal and be able to live her life fully.
I'm male and throughout high school, I never really understood Rape. I mean, I had gone for years believing that it was nothing more than someone who was sexually out of control. And I never understood why my female friends either avoided the subject like a I was screaming and dying from ebola or why they got extremely upset.
But luckily, I had a good many friends who took the time to explain a few things to me. For that, I am grateful.
It isn't the sex, it is the power and control. Power.. control. To control and manipulate another human being, to be able to use them as one pleased. To unleash the full of one's darker side onto another human being.
Why would people want to do that to another person? Why would ANYONE want to do that to another person? Why would you, do that?
I think alot of people avoid that line of thought. The consideration that they might have that kind of personality within themselves.
I mean.. your "basic rapist" is like anyone else. Nevermind the internet. But he or she can be anyone.. your next door neighbor, the teacher at your school, your old friend of years and years, parents, and even children.
What made them step over that line and continue doing what so many people consider to be so horribly bad?
I personally don't have an answer to that. And I don't think many people do either.
To the persons who think murder is worse than rape, I beg to disagree. I think Rape is worse. Rape has all the characteristics of murder, but the victom often survives at a cost. The friends and family are affect like in a murder, but must not only deal with their grief, but that of the victom's. A long path to healing takes place, one where the victom must work through the questions I asked above. The Why? Was it something I did? Why would someone do this to me? Why? Why?
I think it is very true though, when women say that men don't understand. Alot of men don't understand. Many do, but there are still so many who don't. And to be truthful, I don't feel that even understanding really stops rape. Rape happens because an individual, a human being, decided that they will do this for their own personal reasons. They are convinced in their mind that the person who will be the victom deserves what they will be getting.
I don't know.. the net isn't the problem, it has only dredged up into the open what has always been a problem. People will disagree, but that is their choice.
As for castration, castration does no good. Hormone treatment does no good. Rape IS about CONTROL and POWER. Just because you remove one tool, doesn't mean a person can't commit rape. Rape. To take from another human being what they have refused, what society has refused the rapist. No, removing an organ or dampening the effects of a hormone does little good.
A person can rape as effectively with their hand, a broom stick, a candle, a bottle, rope, whipes, whatever. Just as equally effective as with their own organs.
On the topic of men being raped by woman, another topic which my friends were kind enough to share their thoughts on. Because rape IS about control, it doesn't matter what gender the rapist is. Male, female, neutor, old or young. The point is to have power and control over another.
For a man, to be used and had in any way his captor would have him, it is in every way as demeaning, humiliating, and traumatising as it is for a woman. No more, no less. With one difference.
The support structure and the mental association is there for women. But for men, it is something which either is rare, or not available. There is no sanctuary for men.
And I highly doubt that traumatized women would enjoy sharing the facilities with traumatized men.
Maybe I'm in the wrong when I think that rapists should probably be dragged into the streets and shot. The media would like that. Sensationalism and a message to other would be rapists.
But that would be inhumane. I just wish the rapist had wondered whether it would be humane to rape his or her victom.
My two cents.
- Wing
- Reap the fires of the soul.
- Harvest the passion of life.
- Wing
- Reap the fires of the soul.
- Harvest the passion of life.
Lesson 2: Don't use AOL. Aren't there some privacy issues involved there, too? Has AOL addressed any of this?
Hear hear. Anyone out there ever been raped by a bot in RL? No. Hmmm...
/.ers are the same. Why am I this way, because I've already done it for 13 years off and on growing up (from age 6) and I quit a few years back because of the inanity of the users. I dabbled with cybersex and never met anyone in RL. I got bored, because I could not have a decent conversation in the MUDs anymore, and I left.
/. ?
First of all, there were never prank phone calls before Alexander Graham Bell was born. There were never mass media scares before Gugliermo Marconi was born. (I am referring to an instantaneous form of broadcast).
It seems that every new media brings along those who exploit it for evil purposes. Gee whiz, imagine. There are just some sick people out there, who sometimes get good at the media. They exploit it as much as their victims are exploited by them.
I exploit this "new" medium, does that make me a predator? No, I live a fairly well balanced life. Why then does Ann Landers mark all the users evil? Not including the victims who write in, and then the technical experts who constantly write in to refute it, and then probably whoever is in charge of her syndication, and so on, and so on, until we see that the same f*ed people online are those who are equally f*ed offline.
When we were all growing up, there was that weird guy or lady who lived at the end of the road, and we all stayed away from his or her house. If the internet is actually viewed as a representation of an enlarged neighborhood, then that means per capita we should continue to avoid that weird guy's house but only a larger scale. This then begs, how many nice people lived on your street?
I use the net for simple purposes, being the giant repository of stuff that it is, but aside from the occasional post here, I don't chat with people who I'm not already acquainted with in RL, except for the occasional email to a open source/free software advocate. I'm willing to presume that most
Now, I'm happy. And it's cases like this when it irks me that just because people have heard the word internet, it makes them experts. Rob, if you read this post, I've got a question. How much space does an average thread take up in bytes? Secondly, do you still have every one of those threads to the beginning of
The facts are that people are stupid. It appears that their computer is responding in a sense, even though they know the person is real. It's still their computer that is talking. And really how frightening is that one-eyed box in front of you?
Everyone in my generation ahs known those forever, first as a tv, then as the monitor. Hmmph, I'm done ranting. Screw em all.
ALL HAIL BRAK!
ALL HAIL BRAK!!!
This may be something that matters, but it is not, in any sense of the words news for nerds. I read the disclaimer, but this type of material really isn't what I come to /. for.
/..org exist, and are nothing more than exchanges of information. Until then, we might be forced to live with the notion that we are sexual maniacs.
On another note,
The stereotypes created by the media about the internet being used only for sex is obviously incorrect. The solution? Point out that sites such as
Kent
Poopdick.
I remember a few years ago when I was only 13 and involed in the BBS scene (before the days of the internet and the web) we had a term we used called "Modem Muscles". This was the term we used when we referred to people putting on a front about who they were online as means of impressing people. There were blacklists on most boards and you'd begin to notice the same people were blacklisted on every bbs you'd logon to. I remember reading posts from these people about all the great things they had done with warez and ansi art and bbs'ing and the sort (people didn't really brag about money and girls that much, though it did happen, just stupid stuff that had to do with computers) Well, look at what we have on our hands now boys and girls. Modem Muscles has met the Internet. Unfortunately when a concept like this was extended from the geek community to the general public we got all the baggage of rape, robbery, and things of the sort (no longer just "I have 25 gigs of warez!"). I sit back and laugh because we all understood the problem years ago and handled it very maturely, but there's so many morons online now it's out of control. I tell everyone who I know that uses the stupid AOL chat rooms (the trendy thing to do now it seems) to be wary of the people on there and make them guilty until proven innocent. As for myself, I only chat on IRC in #linux and #3dsmax , reserving other chats for people I know personally who I just want to talk to, instead of using the phone. Sure it's ok to meet new people online, but i wouldn't recommend meeting them unless you get to know them very well. AT LEAST talk to them on the phone for a while, it would be way too wierd to not know someone's voice before I meet them when I could have. Just two cents coming from a 17 year old kid who's experienced the online community before the 'net was so popular.
--
the story of Kira489 is, unfortunately, not anecdotal. over the years, i've heard several stories of people getting raped by people they met over the 'Net. many times, the case is one of predatory pedophiliacs.
on the GOOD side, i met my wife over the 'Net. sorta. she and i had mutual friends that went to college together, and they used the 'Net to introduce us. (my wife is from South-Eastern MA, i am from Southern Maine, and our friends went to college at WPI.)
as much as the (evil idiot) Press likes to harp on the bad examples of people meeting on the 'Net, they don't have much to say about the good examples....
i guess that's a price to pay for living in a society that loves sensationalism... 8\
_______
When politicians are involved, everyone loses.
Well I had someone try stealing a radio from a bobbytrapped car (I think I there might still be a link to this in my userinfo somewhere) and the criminal did just that. The fuckers parents as well as the police blamed me for putting a CD Player in a convertible knowing that it was (how did they call it) an 'Attractive Nuisence'. He ended up with a trip to the hospital and I ended up at the police station because I planted hidden razorblades behind the console.
Yes, they do use this excuse. Everyone else is to blame but the criminal. I've done stupid and maybe criminal activities myself in the past, but they were of my doing, not my parents or societies.
I get similar responses with my nick. teasea; it's my initials, say it out loud if that will help. But as long as I stay out of #largethrobbingmember or its ilk, no one bothers me. Never been on AOL. Sounds terrifying.
Freshmen in a drunken stupor: isn't that redundant?
tom
While in this case I'm sure things were as they seemed and she was attacked it is appalingly easy for a woman when pissed at an ex-boyfriend to yell rape and make that man's life a living hell. There are 2 edges to that sword and unless we make the police do their jobs it will always be easy for a woman to yell rape when upset, and it will always harbor the "she's a tramp" so she didnt get raped attitude. The laws need to be changed so that a rapist if they truly did that, get's their nuts crushed in a nutcracker.. but if a woman is just being a raving bitch to some poor male... she needs to be as severely punished, and publically punished for doing so.
There are more jerk men out there than crazy women, but the numbers are starting to balance out.
Just ask my Ex-girlfriend... she thinks that screwing every man she meets on the net is normal, and I was being a child for having a problem with it... (Silly me!)
Do not look at laser with remaining good eye.
to not be in the situation so you cant be accused you either have to keep away from women all together (Espically feminists they are all wacked) or become a homosexual..
you can be in a normal relationship and still be accused because the woman decided that being a childish raving bitch and lying to make your life hell is more fun. and many feminists say that any male/female intercourse is rape.
so if you are male you are dirt....
I guess all of us should kill ourselves... espically us Christian/white/conservative/males. we cause all the pain in the world ya know.
Do not look at laser with remaining good eye.
exsqueeze me? on MSU campus there was an appaling rate of false rape charges.. almost 30% (michigan state records for 1997) and UofM were worse!! the rate is directly linked to the strength of the Feminnatzi movement on the campus (Feminisim is the worst thing to ever hit this planet.. Let's fight for humanisim!) I know of at least 6 cases from 1996 that were quoted in insight magazine that were false charges. and usually filed because the girls parents found out that she was being a tramp. (One had over 17 sex partners that year)
On campus rape is the war cry of the feminatzi groups... and they actually sucker men into the frenzy.. it just blows my mind that even in the face of proof of innocence the innocent are still abused in the name of helping women.
remember any minority automatically get's victim status.
Do not look at laser with remaining good eye.
Ohhh kayy.... ... Sounds like they need therapy and a good support group not a national "bash men" sign. and sadly these women masqurade as "normal" women,and are quite nice until you get in their way or dont agree with them...
.. I met her on the net. Silly me!
Why not? because some people are so good at lying you never know until it's too late or when you become inconvienent to them. As for the feminatzi's?? I have learned to run away screaming every time I encounter one. I have yet to meet one very active feminist that lead a normal child hood, was not abused, or is not wacked in the head. And the activists pride themselves in that fact... I was told, "Most of us are rape victims or were abused by men in our lives"
So yes... I would say get to know them, ask their friends EVERYTHING about them, run a background check, talk to their parents (Espically if they hate their parents), siblings, etc..
A trusting relationship can only be built when you are sure there is trust there... otherwise assume that new friend is the biggest liar on the planet until the police department faxes you.
Now this does not apply if you have been friends with this person for a loooong time (3-5 years minimum) Hell, I knew most of my friends for 10-20 years and I still learn new things every day about them.
BTW the lunatic I was ranting about
Do not look at laser with remaining good eye.
I for one think rapists (this one included) should be decapitated. The lower "head" for the first offense (plus prison, of course), and the upper head for the second.
Explain again how there could be a second offense after the removal of the *ahem* "lower head"?
Yeah, I'm surprised that shoplifters don't try to get away with, "But the display just looked so enticing... it was almost begging me to steal it. It's the store's fault for making it look so good that I had to steal it."
Hmmm... I'm sure someone will now post a link to a story where a thief actually tried this ploy.
Edu. sig-line: Choose rhymes with lose. Chose rhymes with goes. Loose rhymes with goose.
Comparing? THEN use THAN.
Several years ago my wife wanted internet access. Since she was not that computer savy I used one of the numerous AOL disks we were using as coasters and setup an account for her.
After this experience I have one piece of advice that I give women that are about to sign up with AOL or a similar service: Use a manly sounding nickname.
It was crazy... she couldn't even sign on to check her mail without all of these messages popping up from strange guys asking her what she was up to. She was almost completely turned off to the internet from this experience.
Needless to say, we canceled the account and I just let her run through my dedicated line. She may not have all of the fancy(?) features of an AOL, but she can check her e-mail and browse the net in peace.
Edu. sig-line: Choose rhymes with lose. Chose rhymes with goes. Loose rhymes with goose.
Comparing? THEN use THAN.
It seems to me that a full-blown discussion of rape, and someone's venting about a stupid investigator is not something that falls under the category of 'news for nerds'. It's not news, and it has nothing to do with nerds. The only thing slightly nerdy about the article is that the word 'internet' is mentioned in it.
I suggest that rape, along with euthanasia, abortion, drug legalization, pedophilia, and other annoying hotbutton subjects have no place in this kind of forum.
Just my opinion
-lx
I think this fairly ridiculous, and I would not live anywhere where this was made law. I am not going to ask someone, in a tender and romantic moment, 'is it ok to have sex now?' I find it horrific that people want to make laws telling me how I can and can't have sex, as long as the people involved are consenting, and consent is a pretty obvious thing. If the person does not specifically tell you to stop, and makes no effort to stop you, then it is consensual. What exactly is the point of asking for consent prior? So that if one of the parties decides afterwards that they didn't like it, they can't say it was rape? In any case, it's still one person's word against another.
-lx
Yes, there have also been "Gnome vs. KDE" stories , but those aren't posted anymore(because they are hotbutton topics, out of which come no resolution). I can't see any link this has to the net at all, frankly. One slimeball, somewhere, has, according to someone else, somewhere, a misconception about the internet, and about rape. That was about a paragraph of the whole story, and we're not even told the story to the finish! Was the situation resolved? What was the man's story? I don't doubt that these events occurred, but it's simply playing on people's emotions to post such a one-sided story. And, as you can see, all it produced was bickering about rape, and very little about the internet, the supposed link it had.
-lx
I disagree with you completely here. I don't want that law because I don't want someone telling me how to conduct my sex life. Because I personally like the chemistry of two people coming together with intentions understood but unspoken. I object to sex being made legally required to be diplomatic. What's next, one must sign a consent form before engaging in sexual activity? There are too many laws as it is, without laws to regulate such a natural and personal act. I think I have asked all of my partners for consent before having sex for the first time, but the idea of the government enforcing that personal decision makes me furious.
You're also making an assumption that really irritates me - "Sex is the man's responsibility." It isn't. it's just as much the woman's responsibility, and if someone is making sexual advances to you and you don't want them to, it is your responsibility to say no. That works both ways, for both sexes. Why is it somehow the man's responsibility to ask for consent? Why shouldn't the woman ask? I might just as easily hop out of bed in the morning and accuse a woman of raping me.
Women aren't the pitiful, defenseless creatures you assume, and men are not the brutish, evil ones. Let's have a little equality here.
-lx
Well, I still have to disagree that lack of resistance does not constitute consent. I've had experiences where I had relations with someone I didn't really want to, but was pressured and guilt-tripped into it. I fully consider it my fault for not stopping the activities before they went too far, but I didn't - and I don't blame the other party, because, although initially reluctant, I didn't tell them to stop. As far as they knew, I was consenting.
I didn't enjoy the experience, I felt bad about it afterwards, and probably ruined a friendship because of it, but it was most definitely not rape, and that's what we're talking about. It would have been nice if they had specifically asked, but I had every chance to stop what was going on. It's simply a bad decision, and that's something one has to deal with.
What it comes down to is self-esteem. You have to have enough of it to be able to respect yourself and say no. Otherwise, you'll end up doing things you regret.
I agree that asking is not such a big deal, in fact, I'm for it, and i'm DEFINITELY against using force to have sex with someone, but I just don't think it should be a requirement to obtain verbal consent. I realize you didn't suggest it specifically be law, that was Lord Kinbote.
Point is, that rape should be a little more narrowly defined. I consider rape to be when someone is physically forced into sex. It's not when someone has sex and doesn't want to. Although neither are good things, they are so vastly different, I don't think they should be lumped together.
-lx
These lechers are really giving the internet a bad name. I wonder what regulation could be used without infringing upon freedom of speech? Maybe if we ever stop bombing europe we could address this =]
--------- Matt
I know several women who have been raped and still have nightmares, feel it is there fault etc. who is to say that they will ever recover. One of my friends still is scared of being alone with another man. This is about 4 years after the fact. I wouldn't call that even partial recovery.
Yes I realize that one day these people will go on to live there lives, maybe get married, have kids...the whole 9 yards. But they may also be cursed with a life time of nightmares, and fears which people should not be forced to have to undergo ever. Rape should be treated as seriously if not moreso then murder. It's a disgusting and vile act. [period]
-- LINUS TORVALDS, (cnn): Because their operating systems (Windows) really suck.
I'll concede that without argument.
Before you start talking about castrating rapists, maybe you should talk about reforming violent dictators and ensuring that prisoners are not tortured, hmmm?
First, I for one haven't made any comments one way or the other about castrating rapists; please don't lump posters together as a generalization. It's insulting to all involved.
My point in my previous point was to contradict the trivialization of rape on the basis that worse things exist. I by no means meant to suggest that torture was either fictional or trivial. As far addressing one problem before the other, I don't think a realistic discussion of human atrocity would allow us to do so: rape is horribly wrong, as is torture. I don't think they can really be ranked by anyone with an intact sense of compassion, and that's the point that I wish I'd made more clearly.
http://slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=nomic
Granted, torture is certainly a frightening concept, and a genuinely lousy way to die, but I'm going to go out on a limb here and suggest that rape is a tad more common than torture-to-the-death, neh? I don't remember seeing any statistics along the lines of "1 in 10 women are violently tortured to death." Arguing that rape is a "less violent crime" misses the point entirely. Rape happens, commonly, to a lot of people.
http://slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=nomic
Here is something a little disjointed, but it fits into the discussion...
"On the Internet, nobody knows you're a dog."
The point being, misrepresentation runs rampant on the Internet. To a great extent, this is a Good Thing - it's 'freedom of speach' to speak as the Anonymous Coward. But often, the implicit anonimity of the Internet is exploited, not just by rapists and pedophiles, but by undesirables of all sorts.
The alternative is full identity disclosure and complete accountability for all actions. A kerberos-enabled panopticon.
But it is not the technology that is to blame. A predator will use whatever means are available to further his predation.
Yes, rape is the worst crime. I know this as the significant other of a victim. She was raped by a member of her therapy group. She was betrayed by a peer, within a support system - where you are encouraged to let your guard down, and learn to trust other people.
But you're right, the mere accusation is enough to ruin the life of the accused. People are branded for life, by simple association with the word, and some (few) unkind and immature women take the word all too lightly.
-- What you do today will cost you a day of your life.
** GRAPHIC CONTENT DISCLAIMER **
Imagine if you will, being a less-violent than the typical male person.
Imagine being, on average, of lesser physical strength than an average man.
Imagine walking, unsuspecting, down a peaceful street. Minding your own, and thinking about your day just past, and the day to come.
Imagine being shoved begind a hedge, knocked down, bludgeoned and bloodied.
Imagine having your clothing ripped off by someone you can not even see, because your own blood covers your eyes.
Imagine feeling the penetration (anal in your case), forceful, brutal, unyielding. Imagine feeling your tissues tearing as it continues, with your own blood serving as the only lubrication against the force of someone bigger, stronger than you.
Imagine your genitals bruised, bloodied and torn, for hours.
Now imagine reliving that, every time you close your eyes, for the rest of your life.
Imagine feeling the repeated penetration, smelling the sweat of your assailant, and hearing your screams over his grunts, ALWAYS.
Imagine not being able to walk down that, or any dark street, without expecting it to happen again.
Imagine never being able to trust a man again, to never be held by one without tensing at the possibility that he too may do this to you.
Imagine fearing sex, and even if you manage to try, imagine never feeling safe and happy during.
Imagine living everyday in fear of what might happen that night.
Hell, boy, given the choice, I'm sure most women would choose eviceration too. At least then the end is merciful.
You make a good point about wrongful accusation, and mistaken identity. But you don't know. You can't know. I don't KNOW either, but the number of times I hear her cry at night makes me believe that I am better informed than most.
Rape, wether violent and bloody, or 'less severe' as you say, leaves an indellible mark, a pain that goes right down to the bone.
It bruises the soul and it breaks the spirit. It is a crime so painful, emotionally, and so vile, that no amount of 'dignified' physical torture can compare. It is a violation on the most fundamental level - and nothing compares.
The unknowing have no right to rationalize it.
-- What you do today will cost you a day of your life.
i'm not surprised to see this comment from an AC. please take no offense, like Rob i believe whole heartedly in the right to anonymous posts. i believe (and i'm sure im in the minority) that a nick is who you are. i've had my same nick for years, i use it online, in games, even IRL sometimes. personally i would consider /leave # above changing my nick. there are people on the internet who want to be anonymous and float about and changing nicks is mild help in retaining your anonimity. i belong to a different class than that.
/msg me. we'll at least have two things in common. we both read /. and read down through the depths of posts with our thresholds set boldly to -1!
/mode +b # *@* always helps ;]
why dont i use my real name instead of my nick if i dont need any anonimity? well there are plenty of johns and adams in the world, i use my nick as a callsign. if you see another maestro around, it may be me. send me an icq or
i know im very much the same person online that i am in real life. i dont think i could make many friends if i was constantly changing my nick. how would people ever get to know me? isn't a big part of being a friend?
keep your identity.. deal with lamahs some other way.
maestro
I think the main reason is because you don't have the fear of being laughed at or made fun of if you say or do something stupid. I myself am very open when I'm online (if anyone doubts this, just look at my website ;-), and have made friends from around the world, some of whom I've even been able to meet in person.
Sure, people get raped and such meeting someone whom they've met on the Internet, but it certainly happens in real life too, and I'll even go out on a limb and hypothosize that it happens more in RL than on the Internet since on the Internet, if someone has a hostile personality, you'll be able to see it right away and not even consider wanting to meet them.
In a nutshell, I think the advantages of meeting people on the net far outweigh the disadvantages.
I demonstraited this to a local news channel once a few years ago, they were doing a report on how kids can be attacked by perverts on the internet. I logged into IRC and used the nick blueyes I set "her" name to Christina koleman and she was blasted by all sorts of freaks looking to invite her into a private channel. Some were young idiots asking her for sex others seemed to be charming old farts who were attempting to will her into talking with them about herself. Eventually I stopped when the messages reached 20. The news reporters were upset that they hadnt filmed it.
Microsoft aggravates my tourettes syndrome.
A big part of it is, I think, the whole "mask" phenomenon. When people can't see you, you feel freer. Performers are familiar with this: they put on a mask (sometimes real, sometime simply an acted persona, whatever) on stage and they feel more comfortable talking to an audience.
To quote the cartoon, on the 'net no-one knows you're a dog. The people you are talking to can't see you, you can't see them. So all the normal social pressures which would prevent you from saying certain things are weakened. This applies to flamage as much as intimate discussions: it's one of the reasons flamewars get so vitriolic online. The rule "never say something to someone online which you wouldn't say to that person's face" would be complete unnecessary if it weren't for the fact that, *not* being face-to-face, you feel freer to say things.
-- Meet the Residents -- http://www.residents.com/
This detective was obviously an asshole.
But the whole internet angle is only a new twist on a problem with a long history, which is that women who are raped cannot effectively press charges unless they are basically the purest most chaste thing on the planet. Any hint that a woman ever actually wanted sex in her life, and this is the way the whole damn justice system will treat her.
It is sad that these kinds of backwards attitudes are still around.
So? I agree. It's right up his alley.
But
We'd all like for rape victims to not have their ordeal continued, but most rape cases boil down to "he said/she said". Occasionally (not often) people make up stories. Doesn't the male have the right to have the police at least consider the possibility?
The police often threaten to proscute witnesses who tell lies. Sure it's insulting, but it's also a good way to get people to "clarify" little details.
Which is more important: justice or protecting the victim's feelings? We'd all like to get both, but it's not always easy.
P.S. Don't get me wrong -- I still think the detective crossed the line. I just think the line is a little blurrier than most of the posters I've read.
This may be one best fielded by Katz,
but I'm curious to see why people are
so open on the net. I've seen others as
well as myself open up and talk about very
private things as well as curse out and
use language I never would in real life
to complete strangers. Is it that ASCII
text and animated chat room icons lets us
hide behind a false face: One we can draw
ourselves and discard at anytime.
I think so. I think that whenever talking
to someone who hides behind a cute nick and
quickly turns the conversation to an unusually
intimate level clearly indicates a possible
sexual preditor. Women need to watch out.
check references. use their skills: ping and
traceroute to see where they really are talking
from.
But this doesnt mean everyone is "out to get you".
Just use commen sense and caution.
my 2 cents.
-Z
I'm afraid. I'm afraid, Dave. Dave, my mind is going. I can feel it. I can feel it. My mind is going.
I'm curious as to what happened/happens next? Does your freind continue to press charges? So the detective doesn't believe it was rape. His opinion is realtively unimportant. You can press charges anyway. The judge, jury, Attornies opinions are the ones that are important.
I hope your freind didn't give up just because of one very miss informed detective!
I'm not minimizing rape as a crime. But innocence is always an adequate defense. The idea that there's a crime so horrible that guilt doesn't even need to be proven is sickening to me.
Ugh. Point taken. I've had a rotten week, and the finer points of sarcasm are lost on me. You're right, of course.
Now, if you'll pardon me, I need a nap.
This may be one best fielded by Katz
Did you not notice that Mitch Haile wrote this and not Jon Katz?
Not so long ago, a woman's rape charge could be successfully attacked in court with claims like, "Look how she was dressed! She must've wanted it!" This is just the same sorry attitude resurfacing on the "new frontier". I guess it was never dead, just dormant.
So sorry to hear of your friend's experience. I hope she can learn to trust again someday.
Peace.
Ask your doctor if getting up off your ass is right for you! -- Bill Maher
The only difference is in where the victim first met her attacker.
A friend of mine was raped by her boyfriend. No one believed her because, after all, she was in a sexual relationship with him at the time. That doesn't change the fact that she was forced into sexual activity without her consent, regardless of her previous sexual history.
The problem is not in the medium, it's in the way the courts handle rape cases. Your entire sexual history is put up in front of a jury, as if it's your fault that someone usurped your consent. And for all the men (and some of the women) reading this, if you agree, it's time to get involved in changing laws and attitudes about sex crimes.
It brings to light, however, a growing possibility that such Internet crimes might escape adequate prosecution, due to the detective's "logic". That is, the ludicrous proposition that a person who "hugs" someone virtually has opened the door for a claim of consensual sex.
Let's bring it closer to home. I'm a man. For a moment, let me pick a volunteer, another man; You, sir! Yes, you with the buzzcut and the goatee. Thanks for volunteering, pleased to meet you. There, we shook hands. We made contact, in fact, of a physical nature. I put out my hand, and he clearly consented to touch it. Now, on occasion, I hug other men, usually close friends and family, but I'll make an exception here for this fine fellow. There, he again consented. Does that mean I can now engage in anal sex with this man, whether he protests or not, at any point in the operation, based on his "consent" to the hug? Of course not! (Gee, look at 'im run...)
The point is, we have the ability to refuse to comply with any action at any time, whether we ever performed the action before or not, whether we planned to perform it or not. We are not required, nor should it be assumed we are willing, to engage in sex just because we once did. Kira489 probably did virtual-hug her rapist. She might have done alot more than that, virtually. She might have done more than that physically, and it means nothing! The second she said "Stop," and the assailant refused, it was rape. Period. Frankly, I say execute the rapist, but that's my opinion.
Back to the medium of the Internet. Folks, we can't say this enough: all those people who have been raped, robbed, beaten and killed by people they met online probably either never thought about the possibility, or simply figured that "it won't happen to me." Just like we all do. The fact that it can must weigh heavily in our decision to meet someone. I know it's titillating to chat with some people on the wire. I know several people who, in fact, invent elaborate personas to role play online, with unsuspecting people. Many of whom, I'm sure, are being just as fake as my friends. But when we take the chance of opening up to someone online, and exposing ourselves to a meeting in "meatspace", then all those defenses we have collapse: IP masqing, finger-deactivation... none of that works when the person is standing right in front of you.
Be not as these, I say. Think. Be a little paranoid. The cost of serious misjudgement of character is too high.
Believe nothing, not even if I say it, if it violates your sense of reason -- Buddha
Two different names. If you are the same person, you never mention that, and I haven't read that many and never pay attention to the names (so I'm not influenced that they are an AC)
Anyway, yes the author/main character of the story recovered. I was also mixing in child abuse/rape, which severly distorts some people's behaviors. She wasn't that old, if my memory is right. That can have long term affects.
Is euthanasia considered a killing worse than rape? I can't answer that, because I don't want to have to decide. But a rapist is not the best thing to be locked up for. There are only a three crimes that will get prisoners treating you worse. At least I think that is what it was when I took Pyschology.
"I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it" - F. Voltaire.
Yeah, I think that is the basic idea, but some people believe that Internet chat people are normal. You don't need some else along all of the time, just make the first time you meet somewhere open and public, like a mall or a restaurant. Unless the person is a good liar, you should be able to tell what will happen.
To some people, murder is better because you don't have to deal with it. Read When Heaven and Earth Changed Places and tell me what you think. The author thinks she would have been better off dead. There is also some articles at Salon Magazine about it too. Rape stays with you for the rest of your life. When you are dead, you aren't thinking "Hey, why did this happen to me?" Have you ever talked to a rape victim? It is not pretty. A slow and painful death is worse than rape, but not a gunshot to the head.
Of course, never expierencing either makes me not the best person to judge.
"I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it" - F. Voltaire.
Ah, but this is exactly not the case. Online, one can much more easily fake who and what they are. They can then not show who they truely are until you meet them, at which point it is quite probably too late to be able to do anything about it.
As strange as this may sound, I actaully don't mind talking to people about their lives. Esp. if it in turns helps them out to get some of it off their chest, since they're able to talk to someone about it. Perhaps this is strange, but in general I like to help people, even if all I can do is lend an ear. Perhaps I should be a shrink, or perhaps I just need one.... :)
I disagree with simple regard to the part about if she is hurt it is not consensual. There are those out there that enjoy a little pain along with the pleasure, and personally I have nothing against them provided it is all consensual. Both sides need to agree to how far they want to go and what they want to do, and that should be done before-hand. In general I've found it to not be a problem, though if you're that concerned, and don't feel you can trust your potential partner enough, then you shouldn't be doing such things with them anyway....
This kind of hyperbole hurts everyone. While rape is a horrible crime, it certainly is not as bad as murder. Society also thinks this, viewing how we punish each crime. I'm sure that you feel bad for your friend, but would it have been better if she were killed? I don't think so.
"Those who would give up essential liberty for temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety" - Benjamin Franklin,
all this comes back to the place of women in a male dominated society. until we treat women like people and not like objects we're going to have situations like this
You know, what irritates me about the media's coverage of the Internet in general is its constant negative tone. It's always "the big bad Internet" which is responsible for some form of illegal, immoral or otherwise despicable event. Some issues that crop up regularely:
While I certainly do not approve on some items on the list, the coverage they get in the media is way out of proportion and entirely in the wrong direction.
It is nearly impossible to get any accurate figures on the % of total Internet bandwidth that is used for these activities, but let's suppose it's 10% (grossly overrated, IMHO, and that is without the 'adult' sex percentage). Yet they get 90% of all the attention. And that irritates me, since that leaves 80% wasted on 'good' items.
There is an enormous amount of time spent by individuals to make this Internet one of the greatest things since printed books. 99% of the information, programs, images, you-name-it that are put on the 'Net for free and without restrictions, it's positive side is simply ignored. To me, the Internet is a tool, a damn useful tool, a nice place to hang out and widen my view. It is part of my daily routine, just like books & television (no, I don't read papers; guess why :)). It made a big difference for me, and a lot of others. It probably did for you, too.
So why is there such a negative tone in coverage of some Internet-related issues? I'm not sure, but it probably has something to do with the fact that it's hardly controllable by any government body, makes up it own rules (most of the time anyway), is global, completely ignores geographical, cultural and racial borders and is easy to access. To some, that must be their worst nightmare... And others, like the media, simply can't deal with it.
So, while I sincerely sympathize with kira489, yet I cannot help to think it as another case of bad luck and naivety. It could have happened by any other means: an ad in a paper, a night out in a bar, a telephone chat box. But do we shutdown papers, close bars, and cut off the chatboxes? No. But we do point at the Internet and say: "Look what it leads to!" Internet is just any other medium for people to get into contact with other people. I have done it, others have, with good and with bad results.
So instead of pointing the finger to Internet, we, the media and the Internet itself, should be more concerned about the prevention of such events. Some readers already gave helpful tips for this instance, like meeting a public places, have a friend nearby, or even take martial art classes :-) But seriously, these are the kind of helpful things I expect to find on the 'Net.
Where has the time gone when parents told their kids not to go with strangers offering candy?
Thanks for your patience. - Nemosoft
"Fix it? It has been disintegrated, by definition it cannot be fixed!" - Gru in Despicable Me.
It's a simple substitution of every instance of the word "Internet" with the word "Telephone". Not completely grammatically accurate, but you get the idea.
...a little food for thought...
perl: s/Internet/Telephone/g;
Rape. It's a violent crime, arguably the most violent crime, even more savage than murder. The psychological repercussions are severe to the victim, causing even years of trauma. It's frighteningly common--and it's often associated
with the Telephone. We've all heard the story in which a fourteen year old girl living in Maine is given a plane ticket to Arizona by a forty-seven year old man claiming to be a eighteen year old boy in an America On-line chatroom. She accepts--heck, she's in love and her parents are a pain--and flies to meet him. Of course, upon seeing him, she knows he's not the eighteen year old stud she'd fantasized about, but being alone and lost in a foreign city leaves her with no obvious choice but to leave the airport with him. Of course, he takes her to the local motor lodge and rapes her.
Unfortunately, the media loves these stories, the more horrible the better. It's the media that establishes ideas in people, but I did not realize strength of the current attitudes about Telephone users until a friend of mine was raped by someone from the Big Bad Telephone. After the rape, which had taken place in her house, she went to her local hospital, where she was
tested for sexually transmitted diseases, and her physical wounds treated. The rapist remained in her house, and she was advised to call the police. The police escorted the rapist off her property, and persuaded her to press charges, claiming she had a rock solid case. To this, she consented.
Apparently, the detective in charge on her case didn't agree that the case was closed when he learned she had met the rapist on the Telephone. "They [Telephone users] are nothing but relentless sex addicts," he told her. "Furthermore, every conversation on the Telephone is logged. I can get access to these logs, and if I find that you ever hugged him on the Telephone,
I will show that this is not a matter of rape, but consentual sex." He proceeded to ask if she had met others from the Telephone, which she had. Upon finding out that she had met me on numerous occasions, and even had sex with me, the "slueth" felt satisfied he had proved his point, "No one on the Telephone ever wants to do anything but have sex."
Despite the fact that my friend was injured to the point that, according the documented hospital report, she had bruises and tears in her vagina, and the fact that people willingly having sex usually do not injure one another, the police threatened my friend with the possibility of putting her in jail if she was lying!
It is ludicrous to believe that all people associated with the Telephone are sex-crazed maniacs, or that meeting someone in real-life is recipe for disaster. I've met a great deal of people from the Telephone, for both personal and professional reasons, and I've yet to be raped. Yes, like a few of my real-life friends and relationships, I even slept with a few people I met from the Telephone. I even spent a week with one Telephone pal snowed-in together during the blizzard that hit the midwestern United States this past January.
Was I concerned about my safety at any of these times I met someone from the Telephone? No, I wasn't--no more than I would be meeting someone I didn't know very well in person for dinner and possibly spending the night together. I've never met someone from the Telephone expecting sex, and while I'm sure there are many that do, I would hazard a guess that the number that do is not any higher than people who know each other in real-life would in a similar situation (e.g.,
sharing a hotel room in a town).
I once met, with the permission of her mother, a girl in high school, since I happened to be traveling through her town and had some extra hours to spare for dinner. She later mentioned that a real-life friend of hers admonished her for meeting me, claiming she hardly knows me. Well, how much do two people know each other on a first date for coffee or dinner? Interestingly, the media refuses to acknowledge this similarity.
It's important to be careful when meeting someone from the Telephone--just as it's normal to be careful in any situation where you've not spent a large amount of time together in person. It's important to realize that a person's remarks and responses in a chatroom or a MUD may be contrived, no matter how fluent they seem to flow. Likewise, there are plenty of phony
men and women in every community, and you're just as likely to encounter them in real-life, rapists or not. Regardless, it is certainly not in the interests of society for those who enforce the law to ridicule rape, no matter the circumstances of how the involved individuals initially came in contact with each other. Rape is rape; it's a matter far too serious for qualification.
--The more you know, the less you know.
What I can also tell you is that recovery doesn't happen by some accidental process -- it requires
extremely good help (especially from family members and close friends), and counselors well acquinted with the recovery process.
I could write about this for pages, but instead will offer that I am willing to e-mail information upon request.
Secondarily, I am following this thread and will offer my side of the debate with any individual who says that "full recovery is not possible", because that point of view is destrucive of the hope a victim needs to be able to overcome the effects of the rape.
Good luck to Kira, and any others who have so similarly suffered.
...Open Source isn't the only answer -- but it's almost always a better value than the alternatives...
No one recovers without alot of soul-wrenching hard work, and alot of good folks involved in support along the way.
The problem isn't that people don't recover, it's more that we as a society don't know how to NOT DAMAGE THE RECOVERY PROCESS. It is so-o-o-o easy to feel sorry for the victim. So-o-o-o hard to learn how to be with them without reinforcing the trauma. Finally, and often the most difficult part because it is overlooked -- there's more than one victim. [The rape victim's family and friends, mainly] Rape recovery also involves helping these others to heal so that they can assist in the process rather than hindering it.
To those out there still suffering, I hope I can help.
...Open Source isn't the only answer -- but it's almost always a better value than the alternatives...
Most of which at various times (some longer, some shorter) felt like they were better off dead. However, that's a normal part of the recovery process, not a place where a person has to emotionally stay for the rest of their lives. Even the author of the book you quoted doesn't suggest that a victim will remain forever "broken".
There's a cliche which I would like to modify and suggest here:"time (plus a healer's gentle influence) can heal (almost) all wounds.
...Open Source isn't the only answer -- but it's almost always a better value than the alternatives...
Actually, I don't think people meeting over the Internet is much if any more risky than meeting and dating people in real life. How do I know? Because nearly four years ago I met someone on the Internet and in June we'll have been married for two years.
It's all about making your own choices. The Internet gives people of all race, gender, age, sexuality, and physical status the ability to converse with one another over the web without the hinderances of todays society. What do I mean by that? Dating Stress. Society today puts so much emphasis on fitting in, being perfect, being sexy, and doing everything right, that it's a wonder two people find eachother at all!
Think about your first date. Remember brushing your hair for an hour making sure it looked just right? Remember pacing back and forth until your date arrived? Remember not knowing what to say or talk about? Remember being so worried about that first kiss that you missed an entire hour of conversation? Remember the first time you broke up with that person?
Well just think, what if you'd talked to that person for a time period, say, a month before you ever met him/her? What if you could get to know everything about that person you'd want to know without having to worry about how sexy you are, or what you're wearing, or if she can see that big zit behind your ear. What if you could get to know a person without having to worry about society's pressures? Dream world isn't it?
Unfortunately, a high percentage of these people who are trying to do just that don't have the capacity to balance dream from reality. They've been talking to "MrRomance" for a week now, and have been told everything they ever wanted to hear. Of course, "MrRomance" is a 12 year old boy who's read too many of his sisters "Sweet Dreams" books. Chances are, if she'd just talked with this individual for an extended period of time, (say weeks or months) she'd have noticed he was never on before 3 (school) and had to go to bed by 8. I'm not saying everyone is simply naive who get themselves into trouble on the internet, but I do think if 99% of these people would use their brains along with their hearts, we wouldn't have so much to talk about.
I just wanted to post to prove that there are sane people who aren't sex addicted using the internet. I first started using it when I had my jaws wired shut for a month and a half. I couldn't talk to anyone in real life, so I resorted to IRC. The internet saved my sanity, while allowing me to meet my future husband. It can't be all that bad.
A few tips:
*If you're seriously trying to make things work on the Internet.. be honest.. Hopefully the people you'll talk to will end up being as honest as you.
*If you're interested in someone, keep talking to them for an extended time. Don't arrange phone calls, or meeting them for real until you're completely comfortable.
*Don't initiate "netsex". If you're seriously interested in this person, keep it clean. If he/she's a pervert, he/she'll lose interest.
I have a lot of thoughts on Internet Relations. If you'd like to talk to me more, feel free to email me. You can also find me on the undernet (IRC) as PCkid as an @ on Linux.
-Kara Pritchard
There are lot of quite charming men IRL that turn out to be rapist. They get away with it often because they are charming and if people know that the victim responded to intial advances, such as consented to go out with or meet the person, then people say, all too often, that is not really rape. No matter what the truth is.
The way the internet differs from real life is threefold.
1)It is easier to fake being nice, but rather that it can make it easier to lie about somethings like age, sex, income, etc.
2)It makes it easier for a predator to hunt because it makes a wide variety of victims available. The predator can select victims that are particularly vulnerable and suited to his tastes so that he has fewer surprises and can find what he wants more easily.
3) Once a victim is targeted the predator can use the excuse of distance to lure his victim to a location that gives the predator an advantage.
--- If you don't want to know the answer, don't ask the question.
I presented a paper in college about rape. One of my conclusions was that the standard for consent on initial sexual encounters should be explicit verbal consent just prior to the act. In other words, ask and get a straight answer before having sex for the first time. I came to this conclusion partly because some rapists do not seem to think using a little force to get sex was rape.
The room full of college guys shouted me down and told me that was too much to ask of them, that i was being silly. It seemed like common sense to me; my state has some good laws concerning rape, including that a lack of resistance does not constitute consent. It seems to me that explicit verbal consent was a good idea, for their sake, just to be sure they were within the law.
The laws in my state were revised not too long ago and don't have some of the nastiness that many older rape laws do. Laws alone won't change things, attitudes must change, and that is not easily done.
--- If you don't want to know the answer, don't ask the question.
Actually, the laws are gender neutral here, so a woman is just as liable if she does not gain consent.
Note i said that explicit verbal consent should be gained immediatly prior to the act in an initial sexual encounter. I did not say this was the law, it was my reccomendation. Surveys show many men who don't see themselves as rapists use force to get sex. I don't see how it is too much to actually get verbal acknowledgement that the first time you have sex that what you are about to do is what your partner expects. Done correctly this could be romantic and/or sexy.
The law just says a lack of resistance does not constitute consent. It does not specify what does.
--- If you don't want to know the answer, don't ask the question.
*sighs*
This is an issue I have had to deal with for the last four years. It was then that I moved from BBSing to the 'Net and the gateways of meeting people online opened up. Since then, I have met...oh, quite a few...about 5 or so people that I met in chat rooms in Real Life. And, although she would kill me if she saw this, I met my fiance online as well. I'll get to why she'd kill me in a moment....
Fact is, though, we *do* make friends online. But, just like meeting friends at college, you have to be paranoid and cautious. Perhaps, more so. Most of all, use a bit of what we have in Common Sense. When I met my first person, I traveled to LA, so you can imagine that I was very cautious even though we talked on the phone quite often for several months. We met in a public place, with plenty of people, and talked before we ever left anywhere else together.
That set the pattern for all the rest of the meetings.
I did not have to read any "Rules of Meeting People In Real Life" before hand, I just used my head before I jumped the gun. In fact, I had never seen a list like that until *after* that first trip. I knew there were risks involved and I could forsee the consequences, so I took measures to prevent them. Nothing is perfect, however, but a good bit of precaution can go a long way.
And you might end up making a good Real Life friend out of it.
Now, on to my fiance. She is actually one of the first people I talked to in a "Internet" chat room and we became friends over time, even collabing on some stories. Over time, our friendship was more. Now, at that time, the idea of a 'Net relationship was not on my mind...the idea was kind of...well, silly. But, at the same time, I could not deny that I felt more than just friendship. Through our collabs and our long phone talks, we got to know each other pretty well. So, it was decided, that for once and for all, we'd have to meet face to face -- just to find out.
We met, I met her parents and family and we took things slowly. A step at a time, just to make sure we *knew* what we were doing and not making some huge mistake...possibly one that would ruin a good friendship. We knew that it would be risky, open to much criticism, but after that first week with her, I knew I did not want to be apart.
And, for the record, there has never been any sexual intercourse. She is a stick-by-her-guns kind of woman and she will not until marriage. Male as I am, this has frustrated me, but at the same time, boosted my pride in her.
That was back in '96. It's '99 now and our eventual marriage is just around the corner. Her parents approve of me -- and them being very traditional Chinese descent, I had a big mountain to climb there *wipes brow* -- and so does her extended family.
However, she *hates* to let people know how we met. She fears the stigma and heavy critisicm that 'Net relationships have. Hell, even I had some negative beliefs about such before hand. If someone asks about it, she will tell, but she will never volunteer. I, personally, think we are freaky and abnormal, because we have succeeded in building a loving relationship from what started, in the beginning, as a chat and e-mail. I would, however, not recommend it to people who do not have the patience for it.
One thing, though, that has helped us succeed: brutal honesty. And we know all about honesty on the 'Net now, don't we? Heh.
As with any community and culture, there are the bad elements who are self-centered, self-serving, and with no personal respect for others. At time, we are all guilty of this, but the majority are better people than that. The minority, those who lie, devise, and purposely cause harm for their own satisfaction are those to look out for. And, of course, they're now on the 'Net as well.
I'll never tell someone not to meet someone off the 'Net, but I will urge them to think carefully, ponder about the consequences, and not to take risky chances until you have gotten to spend more time with a person in real life in public.
As with all things we do, online and off, we have to use common sense and consequences to guide us.
Nothing else will suffice.
Yeah, she should have known that anybody she met from the internet was going to be interested only in sex. Whatever. If a cop said something like that to my daughter he'd be in deeper kimchi than he realized existed. To suggest in any way that a woman was "asking for it" is like saying that a murder victim was asking for it because he should have known the guy had a gun when he yelled at the guy. For a cop to behave like this is a serious breech of the public trust.
I for one, believe murder to be worse then rape. I will consent(pardon the pun) that there are varying degrees of each that would weigh judgement either way a bit, but for the most part, murder is a worse crime.
I know a girl very well who was raped when she was 15. It wasn't date rape, they hadn't met on the internet, she knew him. It was the worst kind of rape, incest. It went on for nearly a year, until she confided in a friend about it, he had brainwashed her to a point, but not enough to cloud her own sense of right and wrong. This was 8 years ago, she still remembers it, it still haunts her in nightmares on occasion, but she has learned how to deal with it. She knows it was not her fault. (Though she didn't know this at first) She can freely talk about it and help others. It never goes away, it is there forever, but she, and many DO become productive, emotionally stable people. (Assuming any of us are truly emotionally stable)
...murder...It is for good, it happens, you are dead, noone can truly grasp the implications of death as we don't know what happens when we die. Faith can tell us, many with more faith then I will say they know, but noone really knows. I have seen people die, a best friend, stabbed to death at the age of 12, and there are others I'm sure who have known those who were murdered.
Ask my raped friend's parents if they wished she were dead, ask her if she felt it would have been better if he killed her. For years she might've felt that way,but not now.
Then ask my dead friend's parents, ask his friends, ask anyone that knew him if he would have been better to have been a rape victim instead..
To quote a man wiser then I..
Time heals all wounds
Once I thought I was wrong...I was mistaken.
I knew that I had heard another story of astonishingly insensitive and negligent police work recently. It even had that nasty internet angle. I had to dig in the newspaper bin, but I found this in Last Wednesday's newspaper:
--begin fair use--
By Tom Gardner
The Associated Press
SPARKS, Nev -- After calling 911 in November to report that she had been raped, Jennifer W. says that police laughed at her, called her a liar and warned her that she would have to pay for the lab tests if the reults came back negative.
Finally, last week, the man she accused pleaded guilty to raping her. And he also admitted raping a teen-age girl more recently.
No jennifer, a 24 year-old junior at the University of Nevada at Reno, is suing the Sparks Police Department, its chief and three othe members of the force for more than $200,000. Her federal lawsuit alleges that her civil rights were violated and that the police were negligent.
--end fair use---
Lots more describing how she met two men thru the internet. Not only did the police not believe her, but they threatened to prosecute her unless she withdrew the complaint!
One of the two rapists sent her a taunting email "I got away with rape." Jennifer was called a liar by Sgt Robert Schmidt when she produced the email.
Two months later, a 17 year-old student escaped from the rapists' apartment half-naked.
Go to www.e-thepeople.com to write a petition. I would do it myself, except my writing skills aren't the greatest ): . I hope someone goes there and writes one up to prevent anyone in the police from doing that kind of thing.. a petition against predjudice towards internet users for rape victims. If someone does write a petition, I hope it ends up on slashdots front page so we can fill the thing up and send it off to (insert appropriate political office here).
As many others have stated, the first time she said "NO," it became rape, regardless of any other actions that came before.
Even taking into account that the universe punishes stupidity, that reason alone is probably a very good reason why we have laws to protect us from ourselves, and each other.
Provided that this is true, there's a few major problems here. IANAL, but I do know that some states, mine included, take the position that anytime someone says "STOP" and the other party continues, they are commiting rape. Doesn't matter if she (or he) hugged on-line, doesn't matter if she was wearing a really skimpy dress or was "asking for it." (There's a concept to churn the stomach) Seems to me that this woman needs to file a complaint with someone...the DA's office, perhaps? Also, every internet chat is logged? Huh? I don't know what system the parties involved were using, but wow. Talk about a waste of drive space.
I usually don't use the same nick for long on IRC and some of my more ambiguous nicks have prompted a lot of DCC chats from guys.
I think the technology is starting to advance beyond the intellect of the people using it.
That said, I have no problem meeting girls on the computer, but I'd much rather get to know them before talking about really personal subjects. There is really only one girl I've met that I could say that about, but we are just friends. But I can tell her about things I would never tell any of my real life friends. I'll probably meet her in a couple months, I've known her on the computer for about three years.
I have met other people I first talked to on a more local chat room, so the people were within about 30 minutes of my house, but I don't talk to any of them anymore. There's just certain people you connect with and others you just grow apart from I guess.
But I digress...
"There are no cool guys in musicals." -- Coach McGuirk
Case in point: I met my wife on the internet. We started exchanging emails, seemed to have a lot in common, moved to the telephone, and then went to the face-to-face meeting step (in a public place). From that point on, who cares that we met on the net?
Now there's the flip side. A very good friend of mine met a girl in a chat room, and got himself involved in a messy long-distance relationship with what he later found out was an underage girl with some serious problems (clinical depression). He allowed himself to become co-dependent, and feared ending the relationship because of what she might do to herself.
Thankfully, he eventually managed to get free (and the girl does seem to be doing better), but I can only imagine how much worse it could have been.
Doesn't the US Constitution entitle someone to a jury of their peers?
/.ers or the technically savy internet stalker.
;)
Somehow I don't think people who learn most of what they know about the world from the Big Three networks are anywhere near being the peer of most
So if you are innocent they will find you guilty and if you're guilty you'll likely get off?
Hell, I know a lot of highly educated people (engineers and software developers) without a shred of common sense and still pressume the worst of skilled internet users.
If what I said is nonsense,
I'm making a point with it.
If what I said makes perfect sense,
you obviously missed the point.
She should receive these without even asking. I guess that I too had fallen into a complacency believing that these attitudes had died. Apparently it will take much longer than we think to get old false judgements and the opinions that bring them to death.
I was raped myself after a dance... I know the hell it brings. So much worse later, always haunting you. I only wish that society would accept that a man can be raped by a woman.
I sat there saying "no" "no" "no"... I was so depressed that night I wanted to die. She kept forcing herself on me. I couldn't think sraight enough to stop it and spent most of the night shaking and crying inside, sometimes letting the tears show.
To think that our society still accepts this kind of crap, says people could ever ask for it is disgsting. I would sell my soul if only to save this sin from ever occuring again. Unfortunately that's impossible. And as long as society permits these atrocities of justice to continue, the deeds for which they are brought will continue. Our viscious circle shall keep going as society fades to black. I for one do not want to be here to see it.
GAT d- H s++:- g- p3 !au a- w++ v* C++++ UL+ P+ L++ 3 E--- N- K- W+ M-- V-- po Y+ t+ 5+++ jx R G++++ tv b+ D-- B--- e*
Heh.. I find that if I meet girls online, they are usually some what no all there.. At least what I have found.. The net and real life is something totally diffrent.. Thank god that I don't care about relationship and sex.....
I ate my tag line.
-=Ellis (D)25=-
I would suspect that death is easier than going through life after being put through something as truamatic as rape.
--
InstantCool
Rape doesn't always involve penetration. Just cutting it off won't deter an offender away from raping somebody.
Lock'em up forever seems like a good idea.
--
InstantCool
This is something that can happen all too often. It's _really_ easy to create one's own persona on the 'net. (Just look at the highly schizoid 'Anonymous Coward') or to hide behind pseudonyms and disguises (ibid).
I guess the best thing to recommend to a 14-year old is that if you're gonna chat with people, chat with friends you've met in real life first.
"Kids, don't chat with strangers."
I spent two years working as a counselor to rape
and harassment victims, and spent a great deal of time pouring over Ohio laws and regulations on
this issue.
Rape is rape is rape. If she said "No," it doesn't matter if she pranced in front of him naked, drunk, high, and anything else. A hug in a chat-room means nothing; the cop was ignorant of the prevailing trends in dealing with issues of rape and harassment, and did more to promote the prevailing rape culture in dealing with this issue, not help fight it.
One in six women are raped or harassed before graduating from college. Its not a blown-out-of-proportion statistic; its a scary fact. Educate yourself on your state's laws, learn what resources there are available for victims of harassment and rape, and if you know someone who is treated this way, support them. Listen to them, make yourself available, and make sure the individual (male or female) understands that its _not their fault_.
Matt
Okay, Dragon Master step off your soapbox and give your head a chance to deflate. Regardless of how much martial arts training you have, you are not invencible. And martial arts, believe it or not, is not always based on size or strength. Tai Chi for example is based mainly on 'Chi', or energy, and can be mastered by students regardless of size or strength.
Martial arts is a discipline which develops not only strength and stamina but also control and self confidence/reliance. Although you may very well be skilled in your art, I can guarantee you that there are those that can best you. And one of those could just as easily be a well trained, 20 year old, normal build woman.
Martial arts training is one of the better, if not the best methods of rape prevention (provided the trainee is not the potential rapist, of course) and if more women (or men, to be fair) were able to better defend themselves in such a stressful and terrifying situation, we would have fewer sickos willing to risk attacking someone for fear that she may be the tri-state golden gloves champion.
"I think the mistake a lot of us make is thinking the state-appointed shrink is our friend." --Jack Handey
I knew a guy who went to jail for rape. He always said he was innocent. (i speak of him in post-tence because i havn't seen him for a long time) He was seing a girl for some time and she had serious problems. Then one day she pressed charges... She had been raped she said. The court sent the guy to prison without any strong proof (they had sex thats all) and got out after a year or so (I live in Sweden NOT the US). He will always have difficulties finding a job (who will hire a rapist) and people will always frown upon him. If a girl screams RAPE! the court always believes the girl not the guy!
exept in Italy...
In most cases the guy is probably guilty but if he isn't...
But it is not the technology that is to blame. A predator will use whatever means are available to further his predation.
Too true. I know one or two predators... and just because hundreds of people recognize them on sight does not mean they won't destroy a person if given the opportunity.
I also speak from experience, as a good friend of mine (whom I met online) was emotionally and verbally abused over the course of several months by the nastiest person I know.. it ended in a horrible mess that indirectly involved a score of other people. I'm still angry about it, over a year later; I'll never forget that trauma, and I was only an observer after the fact.
You mean like the Green Card posts all over Usenet a few years back?
Not a bad idea...
"This post brought to you by Mr. Whatsisname, the detective who thinks the Internet is built by and for rapists and sex fiends."
Nobody ever deserves his favorite poodle to be painted green either, but it doesn't mean that painting poodles green is worse than a murder.
I insult you. (Place least desired term here.)
You dare reduce the serious and violent act of rape to the level of the silly and annoying act of painting curly-haired toy dogs an odd color?
Absurd. And just as much a wrong attitude as the cop held/holds.
Personally, I'd rather be tortured to death rather than raped. At least it's over and you don't gotta live with it for the rest of your shattered life.
Not to mention that I'd get over it and come after you. I'd probably get over being raped too, but then I got way more self esteem than the average female seems to. Sucks really, if only I could find an easier way to give other people self esteem.
Smash 'em.
Jilles
It sounds like this cop was very anti-internet and was out to punish anyone who used the Internet. I would have to consider his attitude the same as saying, "Well you had sex with your husband so your sex crazed so you were not raped by this guy." This detective should be removed from the force for his actions in this case. He took the rape victim and made her a victim a second time.
You're right about juries. A lawyer will always try to find jury members who have no opinions about anything. I tend to believe that anyone has the ability to think will have opinions on lots of things. O.J. got off because Marcia Clark did a crappy job. The jury made the right decision for the information they were given.
I honestly hope that no one makes a joke about this or something. It really is serious. Rape is horrible, and personally, I think rapists should be put in a large room with eachother and shot, but thats me. As far as how this applies to the Internet...apparently that particular officer has taken the "I am the law and know all" attitude, as opposed to "I am human and need to learn about this" that is more proffesional and shows more courage than hitting someone with his opinion like it was his night-stick. The media has fun thinking the Internet is a bunch of sex freaks who go around kidnapping people they meet in chat rooms and pedophiling eachother and whatnot. Let them think that, it sells newspapers. Then look at all the good that has come out of the Internet, and the availability of this resource to get informed, and ask them why they are destroying their own tool?
You describe one possible scenario, yes.
But juries are strange things, and behave unpredicatably. They could just as easily decide that the cop is a woman-hating pig who doesn't know the internet from a hill of beans.
I'm not saying that the american judicial system has a great track record in this sort of case, but every now and then a little justice slips through the cracks. It's worth prosecuting the bastard, especially if one of the cops involved thought she had a solid case.
You should always meet people in a public place, and if possible bring a friend along. If the person you have gotten to know over the past days, weeks, months really does care about you and is your friend they will more than undersatnd these precauations.
If they are offended by your supposed lack of trust, then I'd say they are not worth your time anyway...
I'd give a great deal to be able to NOT live in a society that loves sensationalism. If you find one that has no sensationalism and fast Internet connections, I'll move tomorrow. : )
I am waiting for all the greys out there to figure out that the Internet is another interpersonal communications medium, like phones and letters and newspapers and cans tied together with string. The same behaviours we see in "the real world" also happen on the Internet. Go fig.
Why yes, I AM a rocket scientist!
I don't understand this.. we're comparing apples to oranges here, folks....
We can't very well say "Why don't more murder victims kill themselves?", because of obvious reasons.
Now, not wanting to start a flame war, but we need to focus more on the case at hand, I think..
Karnal
Not to be insensitive, but what was the point of that? Just a friendly reminder not to meet someone you've met on the internet without another person along? Isn't that common sense?
Oh, and I think an article that starts with the line Rape. It's a violent crime, arguably the most violent crime, even more savage than murder is silly. I mean come on, more savage than murder?!? Hey, no one has ever recovered from a murder.
DrLunch.com The site that tells you what's for lunch!
Perhaps, but in my personal experience there are other reasons as well. I can recognize myself from the general description of someone more open on the 'net than in RL, but the explanation doesn't quite add up.
While I've always followed the principle of not revealing more about myself than is relevant to the situation, I've never hidden behind a throw-away identity - I've used this same nick since I was 13, when the first BBS I called asked me to come up with an alias. It's not that I wouldn't like creating new aliases for specific situations - I do have a few in various MUDs etc. - but I consider these to be merely further aspects of my identity. Some people may know me only as my old, no longer used MUD character, but doing something stupid under that name would still leave them thinking that whoever was behind it was an idiot.
IMHO the 'net reveals at least as much about people as it hides, by removing (sometimes!) all those layers of stereotypes that get between personalities. The comments about people with female-sounding names getting harrassed online are a case of RL preconceptions leaking onto the 'net - the other side of the coin is that people with neutral identification can engage in discussions without their gender getting in the way.
But aside from the openness, I feel the main reason it is easier for me to converse on the 'net is the very medium itself. I know several people who are more fluent when writing than when speaking, and I know that applies to myself. I suppose it comes from a type of introverted personality, subtly perfectionist to the point that I dislike uttering anything without having considered the phrasing and its possible interpretations fully.
While I'm nonetheless fairly relaxed in normal social circumstances, and have also been getting more and more open IRL as well, I know there are even those who take this kind of behavior to such extremes that it becomes not just another personality type, but a pathological feedback loop. Even for these people the 'net may be a way to communicate free of nervousness and uncertainty. Nobody stutters when typing.
Of course, this in itself may be enough to place me in a minority here - I have watched people I know join chat lines under fake names, tossing around flame bait, and then suddenly switch to honest personal discussion when someone gives a sensible reply. For me even trying that would probably either split my personality terminally, or simply fail.
believe me on this one.
Death is something that comes fairly quickly, and once done, is done for good.
Rape is the gift that keeps on giving... you live with that your entire life.
Hell can happen in life even easier than in death.
Do any actual scientists work here, or is it just one long game of truth or dare?
http://wut.rhps.org
There have been much less 'nerdy' stories here before.
Open Source. Closed Minds. We are Slashdot.
A friend of mine knows a girl who was a potential victim of a rapist. She had been training ninjutsu for 9 years, and when the rapist tried to rape her, she applied her skills. After a visit to the hospital, the guy went to prison. As this was in norway, she was in little danger of being sued. That would be harder in the US, though.
Anyway, the point is, martial arts do make a difference - at least on the victim side.
I think you're mixing the will to live and the instinct to stay alive here. Most people who think they're better off dead and who doesn't kill themselves doesn't choose not to take their own life - they just can't bring themselves to do it.
This comes, of course, from evolution. Not killing oneself is a major survival trait, and in non-sentient beings there exists no suicidal thoughts. Humans, on the other hand, are sentient beings. This means that rational thought control our lives, instead of pure instinct. Still, some instinct still lingers. This instinct is what hinders most people with suicidal tendencies from killing themselves, and it is also what prevents most people from going around their neighbourhood, killing people they don't like - shooting one's own speices is not a good thing.
I realize this is a bit off-topic and that my prose sucks, but all these posts about "if she thougt she'd be better off dead, she'd be dead." really irritated me. The duality of a suicidal mind makes that state even more miserable. I still think it's good when people recover from this, though. There's evolution for you.
Terje
If that is not a rape then I dont know what is one.
Correct if I am wrong, but when Mike Tyson was arrested for rape didn't he and the "victim" were spending a night on a motel? Why the history above is consent sex and Mike Tyson's one is not?
[]'s Victor Bogado da Silva Lins
^[:wq
--
--
Jason Eric Pierce
In Canada, a recent Supreme Court ruling has established that a sincere belief of consent is not a defense. In other words, if Joe Normal engages in what appears to be consensual sex with Jane Average, he is at risk of being charged and convicted for sexual assault.
Unless sanity re-enters the Canadian Judicial system, not only will the modern Lothario bring a shiny condom to his trysts but an affadavit and two witnesses.
"Don't criticize a man til you've walked a mile in his shoes... that way you're a mile away and you've got his shoes." Jack Handey, Deep Thoughts one of my favorites.
Maybe this person _did_ meet in a public place. The rapist could have been totally nice at the time, they hit it off great, etc. Then, they get back to the house and the guy pulls some Jekyll and Hyde routine. It isn't a whole lot different form anywhere else in this world just because it happens to start on the internet instead of a bar, gym, etc. It also isn't any more or less insidious that it happened the way it did. Like the author said, rape is rape. I don't care if she did invite the guy back and had _maybe_ led him on, via chat, to think they'd have sex. She has the right to refuse and he has the responsibility to not force the issue.
Do really dense people warp space more than others?
I appreciate your empathy, as far as it goes, but this is still the way these trials very very often go, both in and out of the courtroom.
You are male, aren't you?
You're male, aren't you. I mean to say that this kind of "it's not that bad" thinking usually comes from people who it's not likely to happen to.
I don't mean to sound cold (really), but what exactly makes rape such a traumatic experience. I can't imagine it being so bad. What am I missing here?
Let's agree on a few premises:
1) The act of rape requires a very sick and malfunctioning mind.
2) A person driven to seek courtship in a virtual environment can be considered, in most cases, to have at least a slight malfunction. Perfectly normal people don't mate on the Net.
3) The particular nature of the Net allows for people with these tendencies to function socially in an environment with vastly different and less threatening rules. Since there are no checks or balances on expression, and there is the possibility of perfect anonymity, it may be assumed that the path of least resistance for the socially unskilled is to use the Net to interact.
Then it can be successfuly argued that the very same tool that permits so many people to communicate and enrich their lives in ways that their various neurosis would otherwise disqualify them for... is the very same tool that permits latent deviants to take the first determining steps along the path of psychopathic behaviour.
The tool, or crutch, is not at fault. It would be like arguing that the monkey wrench is evil because it can be used by sick people to kill other people. Even when 99% of the time, it's just a damn useful tool.
I think the reason the Net and its denizens are so easily mischaracterized is because of the incomprehensible technicisms of its innards, the unregulated and self-policing nature of the encompassed society, and the almost mystical way it allows the fat, the ugly, the shy, and the terminally nerdy (hitherto largely ignored by the meatcultureworship of the Impossibly Beautiful, the Unimaginably Rich, and the Irresistably Powerful) to do what only 'normal' people were supposed to. To work, play, politic, fight wars, gain power, fall in love, and live happily ever after.
Incomprehensible to us longtime virtual citizens, I'm sure. But you'd be suprised how most of the unwired unwashed think of Net social interaction in the same brainband they think of telepathy: too wierd, too unpredictable, and the province of a mutant understrain of society only.
THS
---
"Poor girl looks as confused as a blind lesbian in a fish market." - Simon R. Green
You're male, aren't you. I mean to say that this kind of "it's not that bad" thinking usually comes from people who it's not likely to happen to.
Grow up. "Males" are also victims of rape. Your opinion is worse than that of the person you replied to. At least "he" said rape is a terrible thing. You totally negate the male victims of rape by claiming that "it's not likely to happen to [them]." It happens to men and it's at least as bad as when it happens to women, if not worse. I know a man who was raped and all of the conventional support and recovery groups turned him away. In one case the "counselors" even castigated him for coming to them for help in dealing with what happened to him. What, because he's "male" he's not human and doesn't have the same feelings that other victims have? That's why I will never donate to any of the local organizations, or their national parent organizations. Fortunately, it is an event that people can recover from and go on to live happy, healthy, love filled lives with all of the human joys that people who have never been raped enjoy.
Sure, a dead person never has to deal with the nightmares and the fears that a rape victim has to deal with. But they never have to deal with the love, happyness, and joy that a rape victim has to deal with either. Who has been harmed more, the person who has had everything taken from them or the person who is left with something to rebuild their life from?
Statutory rape and rape are different things. In some places a couple can be loving and caring, have sex, and because of a little thing like age it's considered rape (a 19 year old boy and a 17 year old girl two weeks shy of her 18th birthday...) Most states provide for "experimentation" in their laws. It's common to have clauses that allow for four year age differences as long as they are above a certain age. In Utah (where I live) the law is such:
1 - Either individual is less than 14, then it's statutory rape in all cases.
2 - Both individuals between 14 and 17, then it's ok.
3 - One individual 18 or older, then they have to be withing four years of each other. So a 17 year old and a 21 year old are "legal" to date and do what they want.
Of course, it has to be consensual in all cases.
Not that this has anything to do with the discussion at hand. The cop is woefully misinformed and Kira489 was terribly assaulted by the rapist and completely unprotected by the law.
Reading back over this, I think it would be wise of me to point out that I'm not saying that rape victims find joy, happyness or love in the act of rape. It's in the rest of their lives that I am saying they can experience these.
If you believe in corporal punishment, it would be as easy to argue for "rape" as it is for "execution" in certain cases.
The frequency of an event happening doesn't make the event any less impacting on the lives of the people involved. Let's not trivialize horrible things in our effort to promote how terrible rape is. We all know it's bad, but saying that it's worse than some other awful thing is silly.
Usually in situations where the parents have to give consent for their 14 year old to engage in sex it's an after the fact thing. The idea is that young people do experiment. If a 15 year old boy and a 15 year old girl experiment together, the parents may not always want to send their children off to jail (or their neighbor's children.) So the law allows for the parents to make the decision of whether their children were particularily harmed.
I interpreted it to mean that even if you are found innocent, being falsely accused still affects your life.
Not to mention that I'd get over it and come after you.
No actually, you wouldn't get over it. You're dead. Everything that you were is gone, everything that you could be is gone, everybody who cares about you has a gaping hole in their life. Rape leaves something that can continue to grow. When you are dead, you're dead.
Yes you are right, facts do matter. But only the relevant ones. The only apparent fact in this case is if she consented or not. If not, then the guy raped her. You can quibble over "facts" all you like, but get real here. Having a passionate online "love affair" does not give open ended consent to any interaction. In fact, if two people have wild, orgiastic sex on Tuesday, it doesn't mean that anything is going to happen, or is agreed to happen, on Wednesday. And even if consent was given on Tuesday to get nasty on Wednesday, it doesn't mean that people can't change their minds on Wednesday.
If you want paranoid (and in this case paranioa is a good thing) here are some more tips:
- cab money, you don't want to be dependant on this guy for anything
- make sure your friends/family know where you are going and when you can be expected to be home
- if you are a drinker, stay sober
It looks like you've already crossed one of the lines that people here have been recommending against: meeting people for the first time with a group of trusted friends.
But be aware, that the odds are better than 90% that this guy is nice and you don't want to ruin a chance at a great relationship by treating him like Jack the Ripper. Just be aware and don't get into situations where you have absolutely no control.
The media-effect has reared it's ugly head. Every now and then, I see an article in Ann Landers or a piece on 48 Hours about what horrible, perverted, violent people are on the Internet and how you must protect yourself and your family from them. There is an element to truth in this, but no more so than in the rest of society (they've got to live somewhere; they're not just bits).
I wonder if there's a way to promote a more realistic picture of the Internet community. The analogy I prefer to use is that communicating over the Internet is like visiting a foriegn country. Learn the culture and don't trust anyone more than you would a perfect stranger.
-Jennifer
I don't think the rape was the point. I think the bias displayed by the detective was the point. There's another issue here besides whether or not a rape took place. If the detective had said (in an appropriate circumstance), "Well, you're a black woman and everyone knows that black women can't get enough. How could it be rape?" There would be all kinds of protests. Now just insert "an Internet user" for "a black woman" and that's the problem.
-Jennifer
About ten years ago, when I was on Compuserve and frequented their CB Simulator, I met a lot of people FTF whom I had first "met" online. I even met my wife that way. During the same period, I was running a popular BBS, and set up a twice monthly meeting at a local pizza place, and anyone who used the BBS was invited. Sometimes we had upwards of 30 people showing up and having a good time.
Back then, I didn't worry about such meetings too much. But these days, I'd be more reluctant to meet with someone IRL, simply because so many more people are online now. It used to be that you had to have at least some minimal technical skills (and, let's face it, money to blow, at $12/hr for CI$ access). Now, just about anyone can get online.
I worry that I'm being paranoid, and I know I'm being just a wee bit elitist. But there ya go. The only online acquaintance I've met IRL in the last five years or so is someone with whom I corresponded for more than a year, and with whom I worked on several published books, beforehand. I felt like I knew him well enough by that time.
Am I going overboard on this? How do the other relative old-timers feel about this stuff?
-Joe
Very true. That was another barrier to entry, when it comes to BBS's. So with CI$, you had the cost barrier, and with BBSes you had the location barrier. With both, there was the technical skills barrier.
Now, although it's not quite as easy to get online as Apple and AOL would have us think, it is remarkably cheap and easy to get on the 'net. The true masses aren't yet online, but we're getting there. If only one person in a million is likely to use the online medium to set up the opportunity to physically attack someone, that means that at best for each million new subscribers, there's one more predator out there (if not more, since such people may very well be more predisposed to coming online than the average person).
That tends to make me nervous...
-Joe
True, it is mostly a good thing that it is so much easier to get online these days. And, you're right that parents need to take responsibility for making sure their kids aren't likely to be victims of 'net-enabled stalkers/rapists/etc.
Like everything else of any worth, the Internet's a two-edged sword, and learning to use the good side without being cut by the other is as important as always.
Still, a part of me longs for the days when I could feel a bit more secure about meeting online acquaintances IRL...
-Joe
Its one of those tragic life lessons. Really not exactly a LESSON, but something you learn. Its not JUST the Internet you have to be careful about meeting people through, but every other sort of social gathering as well. Bars, Personals, blind dates, dating services and so on and so forth.
While it is a terrible experience to go through, I can only image, I've ben told that reliving the experience through court battles, bad police officers and enforcement always makes it that much more worse. So while you all hope that this person is doing the right thing and pursuing it further, they may not want to relive it anymore.
I always thought that having sex with a 14 year old was illegal regardless of consent or the lack thereof. Maybe Arizona is different?
I am curious about the gender of those that have taken part in the discussion of rape "on" the Internet. Rape is still primarily done by men against women (though there are significant exceptions to this)and I wonder if those who wrote that they did not find the environment inherently dangerous were men.
Perhaps I am more careful than most, but when I left home for college nearly 6 years ago, I made it a habit of mine not to walk around the campus at night by myself, nor would I go out with any man that I didn't know well enough to trust. There were no exceptions. I was a young female in Seattle and acknowledged the fact that just because of those two characteristics, I was a potential target. It isn't a conincidence that I had known the man who became my husband for more than 4 months before I went out alone with him and we'd been friends a full year before we ever went on a date.
Is my experience unusual? Are there others who don't believe this kind of caution is warranted? Is the security of Internet contact with strangers simply an illusion, and should we treat the people we meet online as we would any stranger walking down the street?
The guys who don't want this law to pass are only scared that they won't get any action and that the woman will say no. They figure that if they don't ask then they won't feel so bad when they wake up the next morning because she never actually told them no. This is still rape, but they can fool themselves into thinking it's not if they don't have to ask permission before having sex. In their minds they can 'assume she's ready' without having real consent. This is the whole idea of date rape, and it has to stop. There is no reason to not ask and make sure your partner is ready before your first time together, and making it a law is one of the best ideas I've heard in a long time.
Lord Kinbote
Ok the Fema-Nazi can be a little annoying at times if you choose to try to challenge them. As for your comments that you have never met a Feminist that was not been abused by men at some point, you are looking in the wrong place. I know alot of them very personally and well they are quite normal. Also look at the feminist arguements. Women DO make less for the same work as men, I will grant you that this division is decreasing but it still to this day exists, also look at how things were 20 years ago. I will agree with you however that sometimes White Males (They need not be Christian or Concservative)are unfairly blamed for things becuase of the past. As to your idea to be gay to escape the scurge of women, you must be on CRACK. There is not reason to turn away from a large group of people due to a few bad experiances. There are horror stories out there about any group. You are choosing to believe in a few stories about the worst of people. Most people are not rapist, murders or the boggie man. The world is full of mostly decent people but yes there are a few wackos out there. This however does not mean that you need to run a background check just to get to know someone. As for meeting them in real life after chatting on the internet. A few simple precautions would stop things like this from happening. Do not invite them to say with you hotels are a little expensive at times but hey better safe than sorry. I recently moved and if I waited 3 to 5 years before calling someone a friend I would incredible lonely. The point is that you are paranoid. Bad things can happen even to good people but that is no reason to shape your life around a few stories.
First I would like to say that what happened to you is a horrible thing and that in no way do I condon what happened. Now on to the important part of things. I will tell you so you need not ask I am a man but by your stadards I have every right to comment on this. I was raped once and I must say I thought I was horrible I was mortified the entire time it happened. I was tied down but I was not beaten just stripped and forced to have sex. It was a woman that did this to me no gender is free from rapist. It was somthing that hurt me and my pride alot. It did for a time cause me to be warry of people but I did get over it. Size does not alwyas make the difference who can rape the other. The woman that raped me was smaller than me in fact.
The reason I am posting is not to add to your logic or reasoning but to defend the "frat boy". From the start you seem to miss his entire point he never says rape is in any way acceptable under any circumstances he deplores it but he is right Rape is not as bad as what can happen. I will agree dealing with rape is difficult but IT CAN BE DELT WITH There are many groups which focus on aid women who survive rape. As for rather dying if you feel that way you are a fool and you might as well end things. Many bad things happen in life and well I have been taken to the cleaners many times but I still go on. I lead a fairly normal and happy life even though I have had some terrible things happen to me. As for the way you move on this arguement you first tell a terrible painstacking story of a woman who was raped. Where as anyone reading this would agree that this was terrible it does nothing to further your arguements. I mean I could sit here and describe what it would be like to be torturted to death but that would make my arguement any more believable it would just pull on a person emotions. After you tell this terrible stroy that might bring a tear you go on to say that most women would preferr death? I hate to say this but are all your friends really that weak willed? Rape is not an end to things just a bad thing that can happen in life. I found out the woman I loved was cheating on my and that hurt alot worse than being raped but at niether time did I wish someone had just killed me. You end you story with a line about "Imagine living everyday in fear of what might happen that night." There are many horrible awful things that you could imagine if you let yourself and there are many things that cause people sadness but to let something rule your life is your mistake not the rapist. Make no mistake what they did is wrong but if you let that take over your life and destroy you then IT IS YOUR OWN FAULT Though this entire story you lead the reader to believe that it is you that went thought this but then you say "but the number of times I hear her cry at night makes me believe that I am better informed than most." Which tells us you have never experianced this only heard about it? And yet you feel that you can end this by telling the Frat boy "The unknowing have no right to rationalize it." To this I HOW DARE YOU, you sit there on your pedistal and tell of one person for there personal thought and tell him he has no right to rationalize because he has not been raped but yet you who have not been raped has every right to tell him he is wrong? I understand hearing a close friend cry can be hard but if you think that makes you an expert or even allows you to understand what happens then you are lying to others and yourself. As far as the conclusions you draw about rape go I would agree with all of them until you say "It is a violation on the most fundamental level - and nothing compares." This is entirly false. I have lived though rape I have survived though many indignaties and I can tell you there are worse things. Since you will scoff the woman I loved that cheated on me did so with my friend of 9 years. That was a violation far worse than anything I felt before since of after including being raped. It is a crime, it is painful in every way but there are worse things. During your story you say "Imagine feeling the penetration (anal in your case)" Does this mean that you believe your gender innocent of everything in this realm?
It seems that you insult the ideas and thought of the person that you have coined as "Frat Boy" when you in fact know nothing of what it is like to be raped or Tortured to death. So perhaps before you decide that I am a typical Male fool that does not know what he is talking about perhaps you should get some perspective. Ask yourself from the outside would you rather listen to you friend cry at night or would you rather make certain to keep the flowers on her grave nice and neat? To gain any other perspective you would need to be raped and I hope you never have that happen. I considered post this AC but I decided that to say what I wanted to you I had to do so with you knowing who I am.
When I first read the subject of this post, I thought it was sincere rather than sarcastic. Although you may not be aware of it, torture is all too common today, in countries all over the world. Before you start talking about castrating rapists, maybe you should talk about reforming violent dictators and ensuring that prisoners are not tortured, hmmm?
Your advice that this person seek a rape crisis center is certainly sound, as is your assertion that most police doubt a rape survivor's story. However, you have seem to have some unsound bias which I feel leaves out an important point or two.
The tendency to blame the victim in any situation is one shared by both women and men, and is well-documented. It's also well-documented that a 'weaker' victim is more likely to be subject to such bias.
This doesn't just apply to rape - it applies to nearly every situation with a victim. Such bias is much more prevalent in situations where:
* the percentage of the populous that is victimised is small,
* it is more easy to blame the victim than to place blame accurately and there are no controls in place to mitigate this,
* or where the situation itself is relatively unusual.
In this case, if there's nothing to force this issue to the forefront, it will continue to be easy for people to blame the victim instead of addressing the problem with rational thought. Such has always been the case for rape victims, and the fact that this particular situation is even less common than rape in general will make the fight to have it recognized for the brutal crime it is even more difficult.