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Now you can carry Cygwin with you! I have been looking for something like this for a long time.

You have been looking for a long time? I have been carrying around a flash card with ssh keys, Putty, a fat installation of Cygwin with every tool you oodled over, along with ethreal and various other network tools for like 2 years. I also have a backup of all this stored in a subdirectory on my iPod.

This is like something a Wired! subscriber would get excited about: A distribution of win32 tools where all you have to do is put the CD in the thingy and press "I agree". :rolleyes:

How about more headlines on Cygwin when there are major updates? If it were up to me, any time good projects like Linux from Scratch get updated, I would make that a headline. The way I see it, we want to attract the people who actually think to threads, and not the perpetual computer noobies who give up when "that thing they clicked on did not go the first time around". :shaking fist at slashgods:

you will have faster, smaller and more effecent packages

You wanna learn something about the GNU/Linux system. You should try out Linuxfromscratch (lfs) http://www.linuxfromscratch.org/! But somehow I think it doesn't really do the job either. Still the system contol in gentoo is nothing compared to lfs.

When I worked as a sysadmin, I used Knoppix several times to errorcheck Windows computers. At home, I have used it to run Linux from Scratch on a clean computer. It's great to have all tools available and no fear of removing or messing up an important partition by mistake. Also you can surf and play games while compiling.

Linux From Scratch lists depends on its site, as well as build instructions: Gnumeric-1.2.10

It seems to depend on a bit of Gnome-ish things. But having some Gnome stuff isn't a bad idea, and you don't _NEED_ all of Gnome for it to work.

Gentoo is o.k. to learn from but still not too hard to install. In my case, I learned a lot about how Linux filesystems are organized, the Linux boot process, all of the various boot and miscellaneous scripts in /etc, and especially how to compile software by compiling Linux from Scratch.

Of course, I did this when I had lots of free time on my hands before I started college, and I'm glad I had the chance to. If you really want to learn about Linux, install Linux from Scratch.

I think distrowars are stupid as fuck.

Yes they are. That's why I use Linux From Scratch

Linux.
from.
scratch.

And another thing... .rpm? .deb? Pfft! I got your package management scheme right here.

Maybe it's not the first trojan targeted at Linux users, but together with the official sounding domain, it could trick some users into downloading and running the binary.

This is an unfortunate reality today. Back in my day, the only way to be a real Linux guru was to compile and build your system from scratch using a dev box.

Nowadays, any average person can easily install Linux and instantly become "31337". Today's typical Linux user has no idea what half the files on his system do, or where they came from. Unforunately, the majority of you with moderator points fall into this category so my post is doomed!

I would advise those who are new to Linux to visit the Linux From Scratch website and set aside a weekend of learning. There is no better method for gaining useful knowledge regarding the reduction of hard drive clutter and increasiong optimization, and security.

Maybe it's not the first trojan targeted at Linux users, but together with the official sounding domain, it could trick some users into downloading and running the binary.

This is an unfortunate reality today. Back in my day, the only way to be a real Linux guru was to compile and build your system from scratch using a dev box.

Nowadays, any average person can easily install Linux and instantly become "31337". Today's typical Linux user has no idea what half the files on his system do, or where they came from. Unforunately, the majority of you with moderator points fall into this category so my post is doomed!

I would advise those who are new to Linux to visit the Linux From Scratch website and set aside a weekend of learning. There is no better method for gaining useful knowledge regarding the reduction of hard drive clutter and increasiong optimization, and security.

It's the fact that we're seeing this kind of thing now which in my mind lends credence to the idea that Linux's relative obscurity is the main reason why we haven't seen such things in the past, rather than any inherent superiority in the multiuser system.

To me there are also a couple of obvious questions to be asked, here...

a) I wonder how many more of these things we're going to be seeing...and I'm assuming that this one is only the initial harbinger of a tidal wave of them, and...

b) I'm also wondering if the authors of any of these are going to be on Microsoft's payroll. Attempting to write Linux-specific malware in an attempt to discredit/sabotage the operating system would be IMHO entirely consistent with Microsoft's track record of corporate ethics. (or lack thereof)

The good news of course is that to a degree the multiuser system still offers *some* protection, in terms of it hopefully being the scenario that the regular user downloading this file will be someone other than root on many systems, and that root will hopefully be someone with more of a clue than said regular user.

Of course, the best defense in situations like this is to *always* use projects like this one in order to create/install your Linux system. As I've said in another of my posts, while Red Hat have made some valuable contributions to Linux in terms of isolated pieces of software, with their overall OS they are still taking the fundamentally broken approach of attempting to make Linux into just more homogenised, predigested "content" that they can then use to make money. As long as that is the main thing they care about, (as opposed to actually making a robust system) they're going have a system which won't be all that much less broken than Windows. On an individual basis, kudzu and Red Hat's other apps are good...but on an integrated basis, I wouldn't use Fedora or RHEL if you paid me.

LFS'er can conjure up some weird 'batches' *indeed* :)

but ... I found it *verry* odd that an LFS'er doesn't know about the `uname -r`--thingie ... unless he's a wannabe-LFS'er :-)

People keep buying faster and better computers because microsoft has managed to bullshit them into believing that they need all the latest and greatest features and eyecandy that their marketing department can concieve.

I long for the good old days when top of the line was a 386 and programmers knew how to get the most out of the limited hardware by actually optimizing their code.

I still use my old P2 450 MHz and my parents use an old P1 200MHz and it is more than enough for everything we want to do.
(I am a programmer, and my system is loosely based on LFS)

If you ever feel especially masochistic, check out Linux From Scratch. It's essentially a walkthrough that takes you step-by-step through the process of compiling a fresh toolchain which you then use to compile all of the necessary applications needed to construct a basic Linux system. Once you're done, you will likely find the process rather fulfilling (in addition to all that new knowledge rattling around in your head).

There is always Debian.

Install an absolutely basic Debian distro, skip dselect and tasksel, and apt-get what you want and need for your basic distro, then build up from there. If you want to invest a lot of time in configuration, but build a system completely tailored to your wants and needs there's Gentoo and LFS - depends on how much support you want to find, how much time you wish to invest, and how much package management infrastructure you want.

as a distro, take a pick from one of the (easy) favourites: RH, suse, mandrake and learn the basics. don't use X, there is a console alternative for almost everything. when you got the console in your fingers it is time for your exam!

I agree with this approach in general, but I think that Linux From Scratch is really the best "hard" distro to learn from. Unlike Slackware, LFS is set up specifically with learning in mind, with very explanatory step-by-step documentation. Just about every aspect of the installation is done by hand- the instructions even show you how to write your own boot scripts.
It takes a long time to get an LFS distro up and running, but by the time you do, you will know your system inside and out even before you've started experimenting with different configurations.

Install linux from home, yes. Then install Linux From Scratch. It's like Gentoo, except you do everything by hand, and it tells you what each package does. You'll learn a lot.

I think LFS is better for education then Gentoo. LFS gives discriptions and explinations, Gentoo does not.

Linux From Scratch is a better candidate for this, IMO. A list of mirrors for the necessary files and the book is here: http://www.linuxfromscratch.org/

Roll your own using http://www.linuxfromscratch.org/

I've found most distros have thier own GUI tools to simplify configuring your system but all these tools simply mask what's going on underneath where everything is really just shell commands and scripts strung together. When the GUI fails what you want to do, you're lost without knowing what goes on underneath. Beyond that, if you become familiar with Redhat tools and GUI and your work installs Debian you're starting over. I'd also reccomend learning Bash shell scripting which is the ultimate in telliing your Linux system what to do.

for an example of what's been done with Linux from scratch check out ByzantineOS

Install a linux system at home (I prefer SlackWare), then perform an install of linux from scratch. I think its probably the best teacher out there as you actually see what components are getting installed on the system and get a little of the why. There will probably be some intricacies in whatever distro you pick but that will give you a very solid background. Also, pick up Unix power tools from somewhere - learning the tools inside that book is a better education then any class I ever took.

Gerard Beekmans is the guy who started the Linux From Scratch project. It's not one of the most popular distro's, but I'm pretty sure it's an important project in terms of inspiration, useful info, and generally helping Linux conquer the world.

On the other hand, I think LSB really misses the target. Early versions required X11 to be installed! LSB 2.0 specifies RPM as the packaging system. I think it's pretty clear that this specification is tracking Debian/Progeny/Componentized Linux, and is hence no standard.

Rather than challenge distribution makers to come up with business models that better match open source processes, I would instead challenge sysadmins to quit drinking from the commercial distribution teat. Take a dip into Linux From Scratch, learn what little work there is in building a stable core yourself, and enjoy the freedom of knowing what you're doing.

:w

Cool. Just compiled 4.0.2 under lfs. This post was very useful.

It's just that.

You can run Linux on just about anything. If you want a well known distro like RedHat, Mandrake or Suse, then you're looking at 100MB at the very minimum and some decent processing power, unless you go for one of those mini-distros.

The best is just to make you own. Put in exactly what you want, then make copies of it and deploy it. May I recommend http://www.linuxfromscratch.org ?

I was lately pondering the possibility of making my own ghost image of a default install and then creating a boot disk which would restore the system to the initially installed state. I looked at the size of the 2.6.6 kernel as it sat on my HD and wondered,"How will I ever put that and anything useful on a floppy?"

The Linux operating system has, for the longest time, appealed to me because it was slim, light, lean, and efficient. It is not just the window managers which are getting larger, though. The kernel is becoming positively huge. Applications such as Mozilla are happily following the path of their Windows counterparts. It seems that as Linux picks up public awareness the developers are heeding to the pressure to create a more featureful system in order to appeal to the public.

What public are they appealing to? The Linux world no longer seems to be targeting the computer gurus. The Linux world is increasingly developing to appeal to people who have difficulty remembering commands. The applications are catering to users who are illiterate in the sense that the only functional interface that they can use with any reliability is a point-and-click interface with a minimum of keyboard interaction.

Consider print managers. Three years ago, to install a print manager, I had to wade through configuration files and driver definition files. Then print managers evolved to give lists of printers to choose from. Now print managers go out of their way to present only one or two choices when identifying the printer. The number of acceptable screen options is directly proportional to the literacy of the user. Incidentally, lprng, cups, foomatic, etc. do not work with my old BJC-4200. Standard lpr with magicfilter is still my way to go. This may become obsolete, however, since the Canon BC-20 black block ink cartridge is increasingly hard to find.

Perhaps it's time to define how bleeding edge we need to be. I may be perfectly content to run a 2.4.26 kernel for the next ten years since many of my hardware accessories and drivers are experiencing trouble with the new 2.6 kernel series. Maybe Glib/Gdk/Gtk 2.4 will be the latest I ever go. I only use the libraries anyways. To keep my system light I build an LFS and use UDE.

Maybe Tanenbaum is right about microkernels being the only true solution--but it's tough to find a Radeon 7500 vid card driver for a microkernel based system to play DVDs.

Maybe I'll start to seriously look at those BSD CDs on my desk...

Beyond Linux From Scratch has step-by-step instructions for installing many packages from source, including the latest Xorg.

<humor>

</humour>

Yet Tanenbaum vehemently insists that Torvalds wrote Linux from scratch

Everyone knows that Linuxfromscratch is written by Beekmans.

My GUI works fine.

UDE running on LFS.

I don't know why everyone else has so much trouble.

Is it because you wish to learn all the deep internals of Unix systems? Try Gentoo

Just a joke, honest!. Actually, any of the major distributions will almost certainly do you just fine. Each have their ups and downs. My very first was slackware, about 10 years ago, but I wouldn't suggest it to a new user today unless you are very comfortable with command line configuration and post-installation setup. I still use it because I like it.

RC1 was a disaster for me. I have standard hardware all over and ran into problems with Geforce 4 cards/Nvidia drivers, Sound Blaster and USB devices. RedHat 9 worked great with the same exact hardware. Made me wonder what was going on.

On a side note, Those same systems ran SuSE 9.0 just fine and Debian. Definitely not the hardware failing.

I've come to realize that perhaps I should build my own Linux distro just for kicks. So far so good. I'll still use a regular distros but at least I'm much better prepared in case something like RedHat / Fedora happens again. Here is how I did it.

its a lot more complicated than almost any other distro I can think of

Well IMHO linuxfromscratch.org is a bit more complicated than Gentoo as far as the install. It's all copy and paste, but you will learn a lot if you care to, as all the commands are explained in detail in the install manual.

Gentoo is an organized sort of linuxfromscratch, and I definatly like it better.

Done and done.

Then install a Linux from Scratch.

I just put fresh installs of 7.3 on two new servers. I update openssl and build a fresh kernel from source before deploying them, of course, but I build most of my key apps from source anyway, and with the most recent 2.4.x kernel, I haven't found a need yet to use 8, 9, or Whatever Comes Next.

Posting anonymously so I won't invite hackers to come test my security, but everything's been swimmingly fine with the hardening procedures that I use (OpenNA Linux's books are outstanding). Fedora? What's that?

I'll probably be moving to a Linux From Scratch system for my next round of servers anyway, so I can avoid getting locked into distros.

Why not roll your own Linux using the help from the guys at Linux from Scratch. The guide is fantastic and easy to follow. Additionally, you could try rolling a cut down version that fits on a floppy or a mini-cd using the cut down glibc libraries. Linux will still run on very humble hardware, but maybe you shouldn't be expecting a generic desktop install which is meant to be easy for end users to also be ultra lightweight.

If you really want to find out how linux really "works" you should try Linux from Scratch.

I believe that being able to build on top of open source software is one of the best parts about it. Customizing an open source project, in my mind, doesn't make it a proprietary or closed source project by any means.

It is not too difficult to build your own customized OS based off Linux, even using Red Hat (Although it wouldn't be my choice of distributions to start with).

While looking for a better source/package managment system than those recommended by linuxfromscratch.org, I found this: srcpkg

Works with both compiled-from-source and packages. Supports uninstall. Very easy to use.

If you must use RedHat it's really spelled F-E-D-O-R-A

(Remembering to avoid all products labeled 'Enterprise')

One might argue that building your own is most profitable.

Back in the day (96'), I actually bought my first Linux distro that included 5 disk (~5 or ~10 bucks wasn't bad for dialup days) from Slackware and it included the best tutorial to date about how to install Linux. Yes it was hard because you had to follow directions and read but now, I can install any Linux distro from that knowledge. You will not fear what you understand.

If starting out and you really want to know Linux then try the slackware installation then moving onto compiling your own kernel distro. If you just want to run linux than Redhat is quite easy to install.

Or...

• Install a live CD (like Knoppix).
• Visit the Linux From Scratch project site.
• Download the LFS book, plus the all of the GNU/Linux source tarballs, patches, etc.
• Build you own basic Linux system, from scratch.
• If you're feeling adventurous, you can also read the "Beyond Linux From Scratch" book and build X11, Gnome or KDE (or both), etc.

For christ's sakes, must absolutely _everything_ be turned into some anti-MS rant?! Someone gets Gate's CC info and people try to spin it into being MS's fault. This is totally and completely bullshit. There are tons of serious reasons to speak out against the Microsoft, when you go off on them by trying to spin something this idiotic all you do is make everyone else who has valid points look like idiots in relation.

Nobody cares about them being ruled a monopoly anymore becuase of the mindless drones going "Linux raa, Microsoft boo" in Orwelian duckspeak every time they open their mouths. I exclusively use a copy of GNU/Linux I built myself and even I find this crap to be aggrivating! You want to help the forces that are working against Microsoft? Shut up. Just shut. The. Fuck. Up. To say that it's Bill's fault that his CC numbers is stolen is on the same level as saying that a girl diserved to get raped for wearing a sexy dress. Asshole or not, he is the victim and not the perpetrator.

So goddamn tired of the Linux zealots that it makes me ashamed to know I am one.... sheesh...

Screw Anonymous Coward. Kill my karma. I don't give a fsck.

Does LFS do what you want?

I'm presently running Gentoo on my dual boot snow ibook. The fact is that I would prefer Debian; I used to run Debian exclusively on this machine's predecessor, a blueberry that couldn't handle the static electricity of the winter of 2002-2003. :) Unfortunately I spent half a year trying to get Debian X to work on this machine with no luck. I finally discovered that the version of X with the correct drivers is still considered experimental. I never could get any luck figuring out how to rehome my machine to get the right XFree86, and finally decided Gentoo would be easier, which it was.

I like Gentoo. I admit it seems speedy (though this is the fastest machine I've ever owned). I used to like compiling my own Linux distro through Linux From Scratch and sort of like the idea that everything on this machine was compiled for source (though since I didn't do it manually myself I don't have quite the same since of satisfaction). That said, Gentoo currently doesn't offer anything that will make me stay with it after Debian catches up. Worst of all, I have some doubts that all of the software I can emerge is under licensing schemes I want; they seem to be a little bit more lax about that than RedHat and Debian.

Nah. Automating all of that is a service for which a vendor could charge money. Base it on the number of CDs the customer wants and you don't do the actual processing until you get a payment. That way someone can't put in all their requests and then copy the printout when you tell them exactly what they're getting. If the customer doesn't like it then recommend they build their own.

It's possible that someone from LinuxFromScratch has been down the road you're walking before and wrote about their experience. Documentation is easy to come by in Linux; helpful documentation is not always easy to find.