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Can the BSA Investigate Your office for Piracy?
Kool Moe was the first of several to note that the BSA is sending letters to companies saying they're offering a 'software truce' until December 1st... From the letter: "If your company takes steps to be sure they're fully compliant with all software licenses, the BSA will not fine you should they find you were not compliant previous to this date. If not, all bets are off and if the BSA finds you in violation, you could "face penalities totaling hundreds of thousands of dollars." The question is of course, can the BSA just come into your office and look? Is this a scare tactic? I'm definitely no expert since almost all of my stuff is free.
If the BSA has grounds, they will obtain a search warrant and will be accompanied to your premises by US Marshalls. This happened to a company I worked for about 14 years ago. A disgruntled employee notified the BSA that we were not in compliance with software licensing. They sent the obligatory letter, which we ignored, then they showed up with the Marshalls. We were effectively shut down for 4 days while they conducted their search.
There's a simple solution to this...
Kill any disgruntled or soon-to-be disgruntled employee.
Employees who resign will find themselves on an island where giant white baloons scurry around the place.
I am incredibly worried that the Billgates Security Action-squad will come check my PCs at home.
Billg: I don't know much about what you do or what you're worth, but I wanted to buy you out just to be safe.
Homer: Woohoo! We're rich!
Billg: Okay boys...BUY HIM OUT!
------
Let me give you the lowdown
Yes they can, it's called the DMCA. They don't have to come in. They are allowed to close you down without even having to say hello. In fact, if you try to prevent them (ie closing off ports used to validate licenses) you are in violation.
Wow! if they fought back using the manual that came with Windows, it would be a short battle.
The truth shall set you free!
Looks like they're slashdotted. I can't hit the BSA homepage. Re the MD adds, [see above] they're even running them in primetime, and they're running a lot of slots in Baltimore. I see it 4-5 times a night, and I watch too much TV.
_________________________________________________ Did they get you to trade your heroes for ghosts?
Searching bags/licenses/etc is an action that ultimately protects the other companies profits and doesn't concern me in the least. So I'm not so willing to have my rights violated in their interest.
No children were hurt or lives lost in the pirating of this software.
There is nothing so silly as other peoples traditions, and nothing so sacred as our own.
Being audited this past week would have make migrating to windows 2000 even more painful for me. There is only one good way to upgrade a NT4 domain to Windows 2000 NTDS, and that's by upgrading your Primiary PDC. For smaller shops who only have one domain controller to start with, that could create problems.
Our goal here is to retire our NTPDC, so we purchased a new server with Windows 2000 preinstalled. To upgrade the domain to NTDS, I (in direct violation of our license agreement!) installed WindowsNT4 as a BDC on a workstation, promoted that workstation to a PDC, and upgraded the workstation to Windows 2000.
In the end, it worked as well as could be expected and its time I uninstalled Windows 2000 from that workstation.
In the end, I'm thanful MS isn't as anal with their licensing as say, Citrix. At least with a MS system you can bump the number of CALs without actually having them, and the OS doesn't really check its cd-key agnist other windows 2000 servers on the network. (This is good because I have only one copy of Windows 2000, but 3 server licenses under an eOpen license.) MS licensing is complicated and annoying, but at least it's not in the way to the point that you can't get the job done.
I'm going to go back in my box and will think within the limits of my box: MS Sucks Linux Good I read too much Slashdot.
A couple of months ago they were running those radio ads here, and sending out letters. They apparently work, since no matter how hard we argued that they weren't going to knock the door down, the head honcho wanted us to have a complete inventory. The results were no shock: we were compliant for all our software, so the BSA's scare tactics didn't garner their members any additional sales from us....
I've got one better: the security system at the bank I worked for used electronic keycards. Not the magstripe kind, the kind you wave in the general direction of the sensor.
Well, the keycard set those things off. Apparently I profile as An Honest Person, though, because the security person would usually wake up from their doze, I'd shrug at them, maybe wave my keychain-with-the-card-on-it, they'd wave me through. Never got stopped. Go figure.
Slashdot's token middle-aged housewife
There's a great TV commercial in this. Do any of the Linux startups have any money left?
When the BSA guy shows up, I'd talk for a few minutes, ask him what it's about... then signal security to come in with guns drawn. Get it all on videotape, and call the police with the BSA guy in the room, and videotaped... "Sir, someone showed up at our business making demands that sound like extortion. He is trespassing, and when we declined to become his next victim, we were afraid that he would become violent. Our security has him detained, but frankly we're all very scared. There is also the possibility that he is impersonating law enforcement, you'd have to listen to his deranged story. Please come quickly."
Stores do not have the right to search you. Say 'no' and leave. I do this all the time -- and I'm entirely honest. I don't steal things, I just refuse to be searched. They can't do a damn thing about it.
:-)
The only stores that CAN search you are ones that make membership contingent on you being searched -- I believe they make you sign forms to get the membership. (I am specifically thinking of Costco.) I am thinking that this may be something you could fight, but it would probably be a big scene.
But in any non-membership retailer, just say no and walk out. You're doing everyone a favor.
Don't give up your rights voluntarily to 'be nice' -- if everyone does that they disappear!
They can't come and look, nor can they impose fines, that is for courts to decide, now I know there are laws against impersonating police officers, are there any laws against impersonating an arm of the justice system in the US or elsewhere?
Any sufficiently advanced man is indistinguishable from God
Of course they can come in without a search warrant. This isn't criminal law we are talking about, it is tort law - which is a completely different animal. Want an example? How about MS shutting down the local government of Virginia Beach VA in order to look for license violations (link: http://www.theregister.co.uk/c ont ent/7/14496.html ).
I've always wondered something: In an employment environment where techies can get a new job by turning into a different driveway in the morning, why do people continue to work for tyrants? How come your ex-boss' company still has employees? And even more to the point, how come none of them have turned him in to the BSA?
If anyone writes, faxes, telephones, emails or visits our company, asking about our current software usage, who is not a current or prospective client, the standard reply should be:
"For reasons of security, we do not discuss our software installations with non-clients."
You should not be drawn into any further discussion, no matter who the correspondent claims to be or claims to represent, without authorisation from the managing director.
It is possible that the correspondent is attempting to glean information about our software that would make it easier to hack into our systems. All software has bugs, and by identifying which particular software we are using, it makes a hacker's life a lot easier. For instance, there may be a vulnerability in a particular version of a particular program.
This does not affect our company's need to prevent software piracy and security holes.
Such as? Copyright/license violation is generally civil. (Which is not to say it's polite.) It's not usually a crime.
Slashdot's token middle-aged housewife
You know, those things that say technically you don't own the software, that it is on loan to you from the company. Just waiting to see a little line about how they would have the right of search and siezure of your equipment if pirated software is suspected to be on the computer.
1...9...8...4
I don't buy software, and it's all free!
They can't.
____________________
Ni!
This is ridiculous. Although I do not even agree with that policy, it didn't even fall under it. The guy was not openly professing homosexuality on campus. He was being perfectly "normal". What happened was that his picture was taken at a gay rights parade, and published in a newspaper. The BSA saw this photo, and fired him.
Today, I hear a lot of people complaining about gay pride parades and such, saying something along the lines of this: "I don't care what you do or like, just keep it to yourself!" This is wrong. Twenty or thirty years ago, this is exactly what was happening. People were just keeping it to themselves. No problem, right? No problem until someone finds out about it, cans your ass, and gets you blacklisted.
This is why the whole gay rights movement started. To get it into national attention and to get people to recognize that it is "normal" and that people shouldn't get fired or blacklisted over their sexual orientation.
(To save you some time: No, I'm not gay.)
--
Can you even play MP3s on that thing?
What the hell is wrong with these damn people? They are surely getting to be incredibly desperate.
They think that a warning is enough to force people into compliance. Check this one out BSA Pirate Software Vans.
Funny if you know it's not true. But just remember how many people actually belive the internet is going to be shutdown for maintainance on April 1st.
--->----
I'm not too terribly worried about the Boy Scouts of America checking to see whether I've stolen software.
Don't post on slashdot. Get back to work.
So tell me a little bit about this duel boot system you propose. Do the two operating systems fight it out when you power the computer on, and the stronger of the two gets to run?
What if you run a home business? Could the BSA fine you if other computers in your house are running unlicenced software??? Would it be concidered an invasion of privacy?
So let me get this right:
The troop of *Boy Scouts of America* is going to ride into my office on *British Small Arms* motorcycles equipped with *British Small fireArms* to validate my software on my *Beige Small Application* server?
Hm. how many more ways can I use BSA other than their original intention?
A host is a host from coast to coast, but no one uses a host that's close
No. It means that a failure to comply with the BSA's audit request can convince a judge to grant a search warrant.
(i.e., the non-compliance is regarding the audit, not the licensing.)
Why would the Boy Scouts of America want to do anything like this? This doesn't sound like it builds character for America's youth!
The idiots have also paid for radio spots I heard while I was in Washington DC last month....
I mean, it works when you pretend to be an answering machine.
"I'm sorry, we're not in the office right now. Please hold your warrant up to the camera and leave a message. Thank you, come again!"
Can't you just send them a reply stating that they are welcome to inspect each machine at a cost of $100K per machine, therefore they could not involve the police as it has then become a contractual negotiation / dispute?
Any sufficiently advanced man is indistinguishable from God
anyone else get the feeling that some unnamed companies *cough*M$*cough* ..excuse me.. are feeling a little desperate, and are reaching wildly for some leverage, even if it means clubbing their own customers?
whoever thinks that chasing after and threatening your own customers is a good business practice is either certifiably psychotic or else really desperate for leverage somewhere.
sounds to me like some company who is in danger of becoming a set of severed limbs in the next few years is squirming violently in its death-throws.
face it Bill, your dead, you just haven't stopped wriggling is all. =)
There are a thousand forms of subversion, but few can equal the convenience and immediacy of a cream pie -Noel Godin
I can just picture a bunch of jack-booted-thugs with little microsoft logos on their jackets slithering down black nylon ropes from building rooftops and popping in the windows of offices around the country to run the filedrawers and poke around on everybody's drives to look for pirate copies of office or whatever.
If they show up at my house/office/wherever, I'll beat them to death with an old UNIX manual in a laundry bag (sort of a geek's blackjack...).
---
Play Six Pack Man. I
Just a few years ago, the Boy Scouts of America managed to prohibit homosexuals from being scoutmasters, and now they are into software piracy investigations! Will wonders never cease...
Matt Barnson
Matthew P. Barnson
I learn what I think when I read what I write
It would be EXCEPTIONALLY unusual for a plaintiff to also be a court-appointed representative; I think this is illegal in most States, (IANAL). If this were to happen, it would make for a lot of Good Fun in the Appellate Court; judges tend to frown on private entities attempting to assume their authority. On the other hand, the law is whatever a judge says it is ...
anus (pl. ani) Latin for "ring".
Free your mind and your Ass will follow -- George Clinton
Does anyone have the URL for the case where Microsoft lost a piracy case because they were illegally investigating someone's computer files?
-- Ken Kinder ken@_nospam_kenkinder.com http://kenkinder.com/
The good thing about BSA is that they use FreeBSD, Apache, PHP, MySQL, all free (as in beer) software for thier web server instead of NT, Solaris, Oracle, iPlanet, Novell, Weblogic, Verisign, ASP, Java, etc..
Maybe people should learn from thier example, and trash expesive pay software.
Atleast they won't have to worry about some jackass company fining them $150k a pop becuase someone installed M$ Office on thier desktop ($150k) and on thier illegal Windows NT machine ($150k) to send a picture made in thier illegal Adobe ($150k), even through the company bought $200K of software from Micro$oft and $100k from Adobe.
Sometime companys can just go way to far becuase not everyone is a lawyer.
MarNuke
Ok so openly homosexual males can be girl scout leaders and openly homosexual females can be boy scout leaders
Company executives need to be informed that they should seek the advice of an attorney immediately.
They should never allow an instant audit. But they should do an audit themselves as soon as the jackboots leave.
blessings,
"Only in their dreams can men truly be free 'twas always thus, and always thus will be."
--Tom Schulman
Not long ago the BSA were chastised by the Advertising Standards Agency, here in the UK, for using language considered too threatening in these letters and implying that they (the BSA) were an official body. The ASA said that the letters "did not warrant this tone of fear". Interesting eh? Go here for the full adjudication.
And openly heterosexual males cannot have daughters and openly heterosexual females cannot have sons
Linux and free software frees us from the small minds who would keep us grubbing in the dirt for their own petty purposes.
Making money selling software is akin to making money selling your children or renting your sister by the hour. Its something you do when have no skills to market and only inventory to flog.
The sooner we're done with the boxed set pimps, the better we will all be.
MSBPodcast.com The opinions expressed here are my own. If you don't like 'em... Think up your own stuff.
The BSA only really goes after big businesses. so all those little home businesses and 15 employee corporations have nothing to fear.
-The_Faceless-
If I have a formal contract with companies that sell software stating that I will have a license for all copies of software then I can see this happen. This is why thins like UCTIA must not sspass we need to everything in our power to not let this happen.
Apparantly I profile as an extremely dishonest person (in their eyes).
I was stopped going out the door of a Best Buy after purchasing a $500 monitor. The bell didn't even go off. They just asked to see my receipt. I told them I didn't appreciate being treated like a thief and that next time I would say "No thanks" and just walk on by. One of the goons there said "I'LL stop you!" I talked to the manager and (against my better judgement) I told him I'd give them one more chance.
If they ask to search my bag, I tell them "No thank you" and continue walking. I also told him there were exactly two ways to get me to stop. One was for his goon to grab me and at that point I would insist on the police coming to the scene and I would press charges. The other was for them to accuse me of shoplifting, in which case I'd get them for false accusations, illegally detaining me, humiliation, libel etc...since I DO NOT STEAL
When I went in to that store next, and every time since, they don't check ANYONE'S bags any more. (unless they set off the buzzer) I was stopped at a competitor's store once since then. When asked, I turned around and said "Why?" The goon said "That's okay. Sorry to bother you, sir."
If harrassed and you know you're in the right, make it clear you won't put up with their bull.
But why is the rum gone?
When I was 16 or 17, I pirated Photoshop. Do you know how much Photoshop costs? Do you think I would've ever bought it had I not been able to pirate it?
Having pirated Photoshop, I began using it. I got familiar with it. Then, I got pretty good with it. A company offers me a job as a graphics designer. What software do you think I will ask for? How likely do you think it is that the company will not pay for the Photoshop license?
(By the way, this is only an example. I couldn't do graphics design if you put a gun to my head.)
--
Can you even play MP3s on that thing?
No, it was the Police. Granted, it was the MPAA who asked the police to do so, in exactly the same you you can turn your neighbor in for smoking pot. The problem isn't that the MPAA are assholes. There's lots of assholes out there. The problem is that the government of most nations has become thugs for hire, and are little distinguished from a mafia protection racket.
A Government Is a Body of People, Usually Notably Ungoverned
When you buy software nowdays, it can Self Destruct with no refund or even better, start blowing $100,000.00 holes in your finances. You thought tobbaco was bad and required a warning on the package....
The truth shall set you free!
In several smaller countries, they have been training police and 'accompanying' them on raids. Notably Singapore and Mexico, but at least one other, whos' name escapes me.
Eric
The louder he talked of his honour, the faster we counted our spoons. -- Ralph Waldo Emerson
Basically, I stood in line for an hour, walk from the register to the door - nothing in between them but air - and the "doorman" attempt to stop me from walking out without being searched. I informed him I was protected by the US Constitution from unlawful searches & seizures. He stated "it's store policy, and I'm on private property", so therefor I must comply. I explain that the moment I paid, and received a receipt, for the merchandise, it was now my private property. Since they had invited me in as a shopper, I had every right to be on their property, but I had no intention of inviting them into mine (the bag). I then challenged him to call the appropriate law enforcement agency and have them come with a warrant to search my property if he had Just Cause to accuse me of shoplifting. I also stated that, should the police not find any unpaid for items in my bag, his store can look forward to hearing from my attorney. He immediately instructed me to pass through the exit without the search (most likely due to the line of "eyes & ears" taking all of this in).
That was the only time I've been challenged, and I refused to back down or be intimidated. Prior to, and since that time, I have always quietly exited without regard for the various "doorman/woman" located at any store.
Bottom line, if they have "probable cause" and call for police, they have to right to detain you until the police arrive and perform the search. They have NO right in any event to search you themselves. If you doubt this, then open a small store and post a policy that all customers are subject to a strip search at any time for no reason except that they are on "private property" - then attempt to enforce this on the first customer to walk in. You will be hauled away for invasion of privacy, harrassment, indecent assault, and/or any other such crime their lawyer can think up.
I AM, therefore I THINK!
umm, shrinkwrap liscense arn't valid, I have several lawyer friends, they are all in agreement, the party needs to actully "sign" the agreement. I've yet to sign any damn eula, not to mention if the BSA comes after me there going to be in for some problems, I've already got the blank papers filled out for invasion of piracy and theft of ip
Oops....you'll know what I'm talkin about in a bit.
BSA appears to have their servers down. Could this be another instance of slashdot recklessly endangering a business's computer infrastructure by linking? You be the judge.
Catch me on AIM: SigningiS
I prefer a void in conversation to a vacuous one.
[root@localhost /]# telnet www.bsa.org 80
/]# telnet www.bsa.org
:)
Trying 128.121.228.59...
Connected to www.bsa.org.
Escape character is '^]'.
GET / HTTP/1.0
HTTP/1.1 200 OK
Date: Wed, 08 Nov 2000 23:01:05 GMT
Server: Apache/1.3.12 OpenSSL/0.9.5a (Unix) AuthMySQL/2.20 PHP/3.0.16
X-Powered-By: PHP/3.0.16
Connection: close
Content-Type: text/html
[root@localhost
Trying 128.121.228.59...
Connected to www.bsa.org.
Escape character is '^]'.
Virtual FreeBSD (bsa2.iserver.net) (ttyp2)
login:
...at least they know good software when they see it
I/O Error G-17: Aborting Installation
I wonder if in accepting the user agreement you have already given the right to search
Don't agree to such agreements! If you "click through" in order to use such software, then complain about it... You are just as bad as those people who buy a house next to an airport then complain about the noise.
99% of the legal problems in the software realm can be solved by getting rid of these bogus agreements. If a license is supposed to be a contract, then get an explicit agreement between the two parties. It doesn't matter if it's the GPL or the EULA, let's see a signature before you sue on the basis of an "agreement".
A Government Is a Body of People, Usually Notably Ungoverned
INAL but, doesn't the "Innocent uptil proven guilty" concept only apply to criminal cases. I think for civil cases, the burden of proof is the other way around.
Yes yes, we all know I meant dual. And dont blame me, my hands do all the typing for me these days =P
Apparently, the number of actions totalled 550 in the year leading up to March 97 (when the article was published), of which only 10% were raids, the BSA claims.
Check it out her e, courtesy of Google's cache.
hahaha first off...EULA arent legal contracts. Second of all, they may license it...but theyd still need to go to court to get permission to search anything....see first part to find out why they wouldnt succeed.
The problem is people/companies are chicken shit, wont say no and accept the fine. Just like when they got their lunch money stolen by the class bully.
well i hear laws are in the works (maybe passed already) that says if you lick the acceptence button it's as good as signing a paper... same goes for e-mail "signatures"... it's the cost of doing buiness in an electronic age...
I believe sex is highly over rated... unless it involves me
I'm not kidding, they sent me some junk mail about a year ago to encourage us "worker bees" to turn in our company if they were using pirated software. It had little cartoon bees on it..
I found it kinda odd that they had my name.. Also how would you even know if a large corporation purchased a licence or not and even if you did know, would you really want to bite the hands that feeds.
Also friend of mine had a former employee quit and then turn his company into these people. Of course they had all the licenses they needed but it was a needless pain to prove it.
If it is pirated, you obviously haven't agreed to any such licenses. If it isn't pirated, there is no reason for concern. Either way, no search warrant should be issued. Or something like that :-)
I don't see how they can possibly enforce any such policy upon customers that refuse. They basically count on the ignorant shopping drones to allow them this unneeded practice. They don't search people who don't buy anything - wouldn't they be the more likely to be shoplifting? The entire practice is ridiculous, and I think anyone who submits to it is a fool.
I AM, therefore I THINK!
If all your office software (Operating systems, productivity software, etc) is free, the license is owned by you, or you specificaly contracted someone to use that software (not an off the shelf product), then chances are good that you will have no problems, even with a raid, which is highly unlikely. The biggest issue with WinXX operating systems is the ability and somewhat necessesity to install a copy of the software on every machine that is required to use it. If I want to be able to edit a word document on any system, I need to install Word/Office on every system, even if 99.999% of the time I will only be using it on one computer. Unless I want to go through with the hassle of installing/deleting the software every time I plan to use it I am technically in violation. If you're using a workstation/server based model, such as using exported X displays on a linux system, then you install the software once on the server and even if the software has a limited site license, that license will be enforced by the software itself. It doesn't matter how many different places I can access the software from, if I only use it from one or two locations at a time, I simply purchase a license for that many simultanious instances of the program and the problem is solved. I get the flexibility, the software company gets fairly compensated. Another issue is there is a TON of software for windows while off the shelf products for linux and other UNIX based operatins systems are rare. Sometimes this is used as a negative, but in this case its quite positive to avoid copyright infringement issues. If I'm running linux on 100% of my systems, unless I'm running wine, vmware or some other emulator, I can safely say that I'm not running ANY software that works on a microsoft operating system. This almost eliminates the possibility of piracy, accidental or otherwise. Even linux software that is not free is usually distributed free for personal use or under some type of temporary trial license. For instance, Realserver for Linux, which costs a HUGE chunk of cash for a large operation, is free to use for less than 25 simultanious connections. One last reason for using a unix based OS is that your employees are less likely to bring stuff from home to run on "their" computer. You won't be affected by the next Melissa VBS "virus". Consider this. -Restil
Play with my webcams and lights here
I'm pretty sure BSA is an acronym for Buttheaded Software Administrators.
Exactly. If you were arrested, would you start spouting off at the mouth about your criminal past, and let the cops come into your house and search it freely without first contacting an attorney? Of course you wouldn't, because when you allow a party to search your premesis/property without the proper documentation and without the advice of an attorney, you're stepping on a legal land mine that will leave your company and any suits that you'd want to bring crippled. If someone from the BSA showed up at my door, I would politely recieve any documentation they had for me, shut the door in their face, and promptly get on the horn to my attorney. It's the only sensible course of action.
-
I'd rather have a bottle in front of me than a frontal lobotomy.
Since I run a billed by the hour business I'm sure they can appreciate that I bill them for our time.
Since it's such an important venture only the very best does. So they get supplied with our principal chief technology consulting architectural advisor whose hourly rate is $500 (American money that is).
In the certified letter into their general direction I won't neglect to mention our 100% short notice surgarge for new customers.
The only thing left will be the scheduling, but I'm sure we find a mutual satisfying time.
They might be disappointed though. After working for Digital for three and Sybase for five years I sure as hell understand and appreciate the necessity of software licensing. And they won't find even a stoopid unhappy paperclip which is unlicensed.
Lemme summarize: Two days of the time of my principal chief technology consulting architectural advisor at 500$ an hour is $8000 plus our surcharge of $8000 is 16k for two days amusement watching some dweeps trying to figure the GPL.
Ej, you oughta love the consulting business.
ich bin der musikant
mit taschenrechner in der hand
kraftwerk
I have a friend that is an administrator at a engineering firm. He was aware of several copies of a cad program being run without licenses. In several e-mails to his supervisors he spelled out very clearly that this was bad and they needed to "get legal". An ex-employee turned them in to the BSA who went to the feds. The first time my buddy had a hint that it was really a serious situation was a voice from behind his cube saying, "Take your hands off the computer and step out of the cubicle." The BSA under supervision of a single federal agent proceeded to basically shut down this company while doing a full audit. After it was all said and done the company got fined several million dollars, my buddies supervisor was also fined heavily, something like 250,000. The only thing that kept my friend from also being fined was that he had proof that he had raised to issue up the chain and was told to ignore it.
That was just the federal fines for copywrite infringement, last I heard the civil suit brought by the software manufacturer was still in litigation, but was expected to bankrupt the company completely.
I remember a case about 3 or 4 years ago the church of Scientology was able to raid some ones home for what they considered copyrighted material that this guy was hosting on his web server it was not the police who did the search but the lawyers for the church who did the search there was a big up roar about this
since this would be a civil proceeding I think the rules on a search would be different
I wonder if in accepting the user agreement you have already given the right to search
They're a bunch of bluffers, the magic word is "call".
No, the magic word is "Ch-Ching!"
If you call their bluff, they'll take you to court, and you'll wind up spending lots and lots of your money proving that you're not a dirty rotten stinking pinko software pirate. Simply by taking you to court they screw you, even if you've done nothing wrong. And look at the big deep pockets that fund them - they aren't going to run out of cash anytime soon.
I'll bet they only get away with this crap with smaller companies that would rather pay up for some more Windoze licenses than hire lawyers and fight. A large company would simply tell'em "talk to our lawyers", and said lawyers would tell them to take a flying leap at a rolling donut.
But with lots more big words.
I think I have heard those ads. When I hear anything involving the BSA, my ears automatically close.
At the place that a use to work, a very large manufacturing plant with government contracts, we had a conversation directly with microsoft that went something like this:
Microsoft: This is insert TAM's name here. We want you to tell us if your are out of compliance with our software agreement.
Our rep: Well, to be honest with you we are really trying to stay compliant but, We have new machine coming in that come with licenses, department buying they're own licenses, a major OS upgrade we just complete, so, we really are not sure if we have accounted for every license we are using.
Microsoft: Well, sometimes its difficult to keep up. Thanks for your time. Have a nice day.
We never heard anything about this issue again.
Historically, the claim of consensus has been the first refuge of scoundrels.
"Let me open these blinds so the snipers can see in." - Kevin Giffhorn
Funny story about doing that at frys, I walk in with a laptop, nod to the security gaurd show it to him, go give it to the tech people. 20 minutes later I go get it and take it out, as I walk out the same security gaurd stops me and tells me that he's calling the police for theft...Ever since then I intentionally buy somthing thats very heavy(like some cd-rs) and as I rush past the security gaurds I let the bag whap them.
Oops....you'll know what I'm talkin about in a bit.
I tried to publish this story last week but it was rejected. Anyway, the gist of my opinions included BSA Liabilities.
The primary authority of a software truce is protection against civil lawsuits with the companies they represent. This doesn't include other software from other companies, nor does this protect either party from the local, state, and federal laws against piracy. This means if the BSA uncovers a software piracy crime and they don't report it to the authorities, they become and accessory after-the-fact! Therefore, accept their software truce with a grain of lawyer.
I have seen the TV ads in Baltimore. They are bottom-of-the-barrel cheap. They encourage employees to turn their companies in, despite the fact they do not have permission to accept the truce. They also imply that the BSA is, or will call in, the Feds themselves. Very misleading. To top it all, they call themselves the Baltimore Software Alliance, which they are not.
----------------------
What kind of crazy formula is that? How in the world can they expect us to believe any sort of crap like that? Any statistics they come up with our pure guesses, it's impossibile to determine the number of "illegal" programs out there obviously. I could tell you there's X number of stars in the sky, based on the fact I can see Y many in an area Z big. But then there's the elusive L ... which you can't see ..
Legally, in the US, the 4th amendment to the constitution grants everyone protection from unwarranted searches and seizures. They would need to be a law enforcement officer (which they are not) WITH a search warrant (which they won't have either) to be able to force a company to show them their software licenses.
Unfortunately, the fourth ammendment is now a joke. We really do allow police to peek in your windows, we really allow cops to claim it was a mistake if they execute an illegal search, we allow drug tests without suspiscion, etc. Warrants are like candy, and if you do get one overturned the cops will slash your tires in many areas.
Completely OT, this is thanks to the Reagan/Bush appointees on the US Supreme Court. I want to extend a hearty thank you to everyone who voted for the AWOL criminal who will add more of these folks to the Supreme Court. I want to extend an even more hearty thank you to all of you who voted for Nader, thereby making it very likely AWOL criminal will make Supreme Court appointments, especially if you live in Florida or New Hampshire.
If the BSA wants to "audit"/extort companies to see if they have any misappropriated software, then what about their code?
I would bet a substantial sum of money that all BSA members have used some code released under the GPL in their products. Maybe another organization should audit the source code and confirm that none of it has been released under the GPL.
Something like this: "Hello, this is the GPLSA. We've received a tip from a disgruntled developer that you may have illegally charged consumers for GPL-derived works. We'll be stopping by later today to check all your source code. If that's a problem we can get a search warrant."
It astonishes me how many variations of this saying there are: "Cut off nose despite face" "Cut off nose to spit in face" "Cut off nose inside face" etc.. etc.. Just for the record, it's "Cut off your nose to spite your face"
Well, neither is the MPAA, and remember what happened in the DeCSS raid.....
They'd probably use SMS to prove that they didn't have it in inventory. They would not open up their "security" ;) to let an outsider look in.
He COULDN'T get arrested..
UPS Sucks
Friday at 4:50PM, huh? Good.
I'm at the bar by 3:30PM.
Maybe because we don't live in the same magical fantasy-land you've created for yourselves?
Moof!
Actually, this is an excellent case for ensuring that all your employees ONLY use open source software, or worst case, if you have to use licensed software, that you not allow employees to install whatever they want on their systems. Otherwise, the company may end having to pay for 100 copies of Quake3 that the developers installed on their workstations, amongst other things. It sucks, but hey, this is what happens when you have organizations like the BSA around. Don't these guys realize this just further strengthens the case for only using free software?
Frankly, I would just ensure that my operation was only using free software, and not do business with companies that support these jack-booted thug like tactics of the BSA. I don't care what their argument is, you simply do not play cop with your customers. Its BAD for business. As a business owner and a customer, I simply would not, and will not, stand for this sort of nonsense and we would never shake our customers down like this - if we ever wanted to do business with them again.
From now on, we're going to ask our vendors if they are part of the BSA and insist that if they are, that they sign a contract with us that precludes them from disrupting our operations with this sort of nonsense. And if they won't sign it, then we're taking our business elsewhere. I suggest others do the same. I intimately understand what is behind the BSA's arguments, but their methods are unacceptable IMHO.
In all my years with many software and hardware companies, we never had to resort to these scare tactics, or worse yet calling in the feds on our customers. We simply did business with companies that were willing to pay for our software, and we didn't worry about the ones that didn't. What company in their right mind would want to use software from Vendor X in the future if they had been treated like this?
Python
Python
And for those readers who don't have a sense of humor, WE KNOW it's not the Boy Scouts of America, it a joke, get it? Ha, Ha?
Somehow, I'm not surprised that it exists to protect Microsoft, instead of me. But you'd think that such things would cut both ways.
A few cellphones ago, when I was still in school before PCS became widespread, I had one of the earlier model Erikson dual mode digital/analog cellphones.
You know those annoying-as-hell anti-shoplifting sensors that go off if some dumbass salesdrone forgets to remove the tag from your purchase, or if the magnetic pad they rub the other model on fscks up, and you carry merchandise through them (never mind the fact that you just fscking BOUGHT the stuff)?
Well, I discovered, never mind how, that if I sey my cellphone to force itself to use the analog network instead of digital; if I had an active call at the time, my cellphone would set off those very sensors! Not only that, you didn't need to walk through the sensors to set them off, my phone would set them from a distance of ten feet or so!!!
It didn't work with ALL of those sensors, but it worked with enough (I assume only a certian model (but a pretty common one nonetheless) was vulnerable).
My friends and I had no ends of laughs by dialing into my answering machine at home, dropping the phone into my pocket, and walking through the mall, setting off alarm after alarm, and watching the rent-a-pigs scurry around all confused and not knowing what was going on or what to do.
Alternatively, if I timed it right, I could force an alarm to go off on myself, and, by acting all indignant and pissed off, usually wrangle a big apology and store credit (usually $20-$50) to make up for the "insult". This worked especially well in your larger chains; the WalMarts Kmarts, etc.
Sadly, though, that cellphone is long since gone, having dropped calls, and run the battery empty at inoppertune times far too often for my tastes. And I've been unable to duplicate the effect with any cellphone I've owned since.
Oh well.... but it was great fun at the time!
john
Resistance is NOT futile!!!
Haiku:
I am not a drone.
Remove the collective if
Imagine all the people...
i worked at a small company (less than 100 employees) and when the original sysadmin left he was threatening to call the BSA and report all the unlicensed software they had...don't know what happened, but later i was cleaning up an old storeroom and found enough disks to probably prove we'd bought everything legit...
"Leave the gun, take the canoli."
this is just a placeholder till i send back my real sig from the future.
Can they fine you? Sure. *I* can fine you!
But only a court can force the issue.
The nasty thing about laptops and Office is that MS changed their license, also their license changed depending on who you bought it from!
Back in the days of Office 4, as I recall, if you bought a MS boxed copy, the license said you could install it on a work machine, and if you were the main user of that PC, you could also install it on a home machine.
Sort of a variation of the Borland Paperback Book License.
But if you bought your licenses from ASAP, that particular clause wasn't there!
That clause also disappeared on later editions of Office. We had an awful lot of unhappy users when we told them they couldn't take home CD's and install it at home anymore.
--
When you sympathize with stupidity, you start thinking like an idiot.
And shame on you for your bad grammer God of all that is Taco.
I believe quamper was referring to Kelsey Grammer, a part-time troubled soul, and longtime confidante of CmdrTaco.
Thus, "your bad grammer." Just a capitalization problem.
You're right about the comma, though.
In the Molecular and Cell biology department, BSA stands for a commonly used biochemical, namely Bovine Serum Albumin. Albumin is a protein found in egg whites and the blood (serum). BSA has an 'average' molecular weight for a protein, stores well, is easily detectable using photospectrometry. It is slightly viscous when you first make it so... Imagine some giant monster goop-like blob that's BSA coming to inspect...
Americans have a hard time understanding this, because the UK taxes televisions, and they periodically have vans that come out looking for RF emissions typical of a TV in suspected tv-tax evaders.
I don't know which is worse. The BSA playing bullies or that the law backs them up. If they didnt have the law on their side there wouldn't be a case and we wouldn't be discussing this in the first place. So is the real problem BSA or the law? I personally bet on the law in this case. And this can quickly lead to another discussion. Who is the law supposed to protect vs who does the law protect.
<flamebait>
According to what i have heard and read over the last few years i have come to the conclusion that the American laws are mainly trying to protect big corporations and those who have a big wallet. I personally find this very disturbing and I sincerly hope that I have simply been exposed to a bunch of bad examples that are not representitive. If this *IS* true then i dont understand how the average american citizen can accept this. Considering how much we hear about the "freedom" and "rights" the americans have i find it funny that we hear about bad examples so often.
</flamebait>
P/S: I am from Denmark.
A lot of Microsoft developers use Visual SlickEdit, which is made by Microedge. I would not be surprised in the least if there were several pirated copies floating around. It's very easy to pirate this editor.
--
And the men who hold high places must be the ones who start
To mold a new reality... closer to the heart
Solution: if you use pirated software and don't have time to comply-
write a worm that will seek and delete all copies of the offending software, activated by a specific combination of commands/keystrokes.
So while you appear to be hitting the send button on your email client, it's essentially propagating itself through the network, searching and destroying.
This approach works even better when you have 'ghosted' machines, (when you clone installations to make all machines have the same set of software).
Of course, you would have to set up a miltary style of authentication and security etc. that can be executed in dire situations and minimises false alarms.
sample scenario:
When the troops come in the front door, you get advanced warning (i'm sure most companies have receptionists).
Exchange immediate authentication for the worm activation.
"step away from the keyboard!"
"*keystroke keystroke keystroke, click.*"
boom.
Repairing the damage may take resources, but they are nothing compared to what you need to pay or what you will face.
what a coincidence...
When I was a sboolboy I was attacked by a bat!
The secret of success is honesty and fair dealing. If you can fake those, you've got it made. (Marx)
but since you would be in violation of (what I consider bad) laws if they were able to get enough info on you to go to the right law enforcement agency and that law enforcement agency were able to get a warrant based on any info they might have then that law enforcement agency *would* be able to inspect your stuff. This could of course get messy very quickly and IMO anybody who thinks that have law enforcement digging around on your machines would not be a bad thing is a idiot because once they go through the trouble to get a warrant and do it they WILL find something. The best thing to do is of course to go free as in speech.
Cypherpunks: Civil Liberty Through Complex Mathematics. Those who live by the sword die by the arrow.
Maybe they should make you sign somthing that says "we can search you" every time you buy somthing there, or the 1st time you buy somthing there. Otherwise, they BETTER have a warrent, because im not being searched by ANYONE. Without a warrent its illegal.
ETRN x
As someone who doesn't have a problem with closed source software, I think that I would still recommend free solutions to any large organisation, wherever feasible.
Tack the administrative costs of any potential BSA audits on to the initial cost of any non-free software, and you have a potentially HUGE cost on your hands. Certainly greater than supporting an open-source alternative.
This seems to have developed in recent years, the BSA or the companies that back it are getting greedier and chasing potential customers away.
Things have gotten out of hand and the BSAs behavior is a symptom, IMHO, of how out of wack copyright and other IP laws are.
Python
Python
Unless
:-)
a) They are a government agency with some sort of enforcement powers
or
b) They are mentioned explicitly in a company's site license, as an inspector to ensure software legitimacy
Otherwise they have no grounds to actually turn up and demand entrance.
Unless, of course, they claim that they are in "hot pursuit", attempting to make a citizen's arrest
IANAL(BMDI)
I Am Not A Lawyer (But My Dad Is)
--Remove SPAM from my address to mail me
Its one thing for the BSA to do a little PI work and get a law enforcement agency to get a search warrant and search your premises.... its entirely another thing if the BSA thinks that it can then set the penalty for any discovered breaches.
They can take you to court over the infringement and seek damages, but they certainly can't assign a punishment in the event that you have pirated material in your possession... and there is something horribly wrong with the system if they can.
'sapientia potestas est'
The add they have been running here is that they are blanked auditing everyone. there has to be something illegall about that. Thats like saying you are all pirates and we know you are pirating software so we will check everyone.
But we will give you a month to check all your stuff before the black boots come kicking in your door.
I didn't know that the govt appointed bsa to an official agency with the powers to stomp on the constitution and rights of companies and people.
But what do I know, I'm just a programmer. And the fact that my company has recieved a letter...and all the m$ junk we have is legitimate.
If ignorance is bliss, the world is full of blissful people
I sure hope they don't find out I'm using a pirated copy of Red Hat.
My good friend and first IT boss worked at a firm where JUST such a thing happened in his department. Just like the case mentioned on the first page, it was a tip-off from a disgruntled individual that prompted it. The Department was distributing software without official endorsement from the company but it was the company that ate the costs because of the audit. My 2 cents.
They can litigate, and cost you more in legal fees than the price of the software. Then the State/FBI gets a warrant and searches your systems, and if you are guilty, you're made to pay.
Just like the MPAA and the RIAA, the members of the BSA are cutting the branch whereupon they sit. They are alienating their consumers, and trying to make a buck quick, since they KNOW that they are on their way out. The simple solution to this problem is to switch to Free Software.
Yeah, yeah.. Free Software is only Free if your time is worthless.. Well, what is the TCO of Commercial Software: purchase, upkeep and license management included? How about we add the potential of litigation to that cost? Still cheaper than Free software?
Can you imagine what an Iron Fist they would have if there were NO free alternatives? I can see it now: Terminator 95 - the new Microsoft Pictures movie in which Bill Gates goes back in time to kill RMS and Linus comming to a DVD near you!
The REAL jabber has the /. user id: 13196
The REAL jabber has the user id: 13196
What you do today will cost you a day of your life
A disgruntled student turned in my High School in 1998 for allegedly having more installs of software than we had licenses for. The BSA sent a certified letter stating that we had to do a full audit and prove we had licenses for everything or they would come in and raid us, that non-complience was enough evidence for a search warrant, etc, etc. Our lawyers seemed to agree that it was within their rights. Luckily, we had all the licenses, but I don't think that is quite legal. I can see the FBI doing that, but this is a private company. Seems like this is a great way to "get even" with someone, because even if they are licensed, it takes many, many, many hundreds of hours of work, even for a school with 120 computers.
-mark
-mark
If your computer says LINUX, run...computers can't talk! [unless you have text-speech software]
Slashdot: not quite a DDoS, but the next best thing.
I see that you have, inadvertantly I hope, left the Bull Shitters of America off your list. They, of course, have to bull shit there way into your office and then bull shit you into allowing them to rummage through your software. After which, it follows, they bull shit you into paying for licenses you don't have, don't want and that due to bugs are virtually useless for anything except burning onto cd disks and using for coasters. Just say fuck off.
Congrats on that one -- probably the first truly smart/clever quip I've seen on slashdot. Post more ;)
Don't post on slashdot. Get back to work.
I have seen commercials on this for the last 2-3 weeks in MD.
I don't believe they can just walk in and check .. but just like the police, if they have probable cause, they can.
As I tend to work for larger sized companies, we are usually what they are looking for .. a nice easy score all in one go.
my current employer is VERY strict on what can and can not be on our computers. I had to fight him to allow me to use my copy of DreamW and Homesite (registered to me)
My last company (one of the divisions of @home) on the other hand .. has a f*-load of pirated software, games, images, etc all over the place.
If I were bitter .. I would have typed something like that here .. but i'm not bitter, I *ENJOY* having my cable shut off 3 times in 2 weeks because of a clerical error.
but realistically , what can they do ? Stomp in like the gestappo and demand you turn your computer on .. thats like the pr0n police stalking teachers - so they can steal their kiddie pr0n.
--Ne auderis delere orbem rigidum meum, non erravi pernicose!
At first I thought it was a joke when someone said boy scouts of america, but then others followed...Come on people.. I wqsnt even able to reach the site, has it been taken down? I am kind of dissapointed that I couldnt send them an email telling them I wanted to poop in their face :-)
Has anyone thought of countersuing the BSA? If I kept good enough records (and the right number of copies of software), and some anonymous tip turned me in... Hmm... (apparently store reciepts are sufficient, so my previous dilemma is moot :)
Download your mp3s any way you want, and support the artist via FairTunes
They can't get a warrant, but what they can get is every bit as invasive as that. What they will do is present evidence to a federal district court judge at an ex parte hearing (meaning you won't be there) that suggests that there is evidence of copyright infringement on the premises and that if you are forewarned, you will be able to remove said evidence. The basis for the request might well be affidavits from disgruntled ex employees. If they are successful, the BSA will be given a court order which allows them to enter your place, accompanied by either US Marshalls or the local constabulatory, and to sieze computers, disks, etc. that might hold evidence of infringement, but which will definitely shut your business down and publically embarrass the company. Faced with a choice of having those things happen, your boss will probably elect to have them in to search without going through those steps.
Isaac
The Register reports that the BSA will be detecting pirate software with Imaginary Hardware. I imagine that they could cover more ground using black helicopters instead of vans.
134340: I am not a number. I am a free planet!
Not true. They usually don't pull their request out of their asses, and the federalis can consider their request for permission evidence for alleged piracy.
They don't have to be a government agency to show up with one.
Comment removed based on user account deletion
What about the Motercycle company
The poster already named them. It's Birmingham Small Arms you're referring to.
Besides, a BSA would make a lousy streetfighter. Stick to CBR9xxRRs and GSXRs.
Here in Beautiful Pittsburgh, we have been subjected to the BSAs radio ads for the past three months. They say "If you are a business and you have never had or never will have disgrun tled employees then you needn't worry." It's just scare tactics. How much do you want to bet they will offer to do software audits for you? For a fee, of course.
Yes--the BSA can raid your office. Here's how it works.
The BSA actively advertises for disgruntled employees or former employees to turn in companies that cheat on their license agreements. When they get a complaint they typically attempt to substantiate the allegation (that is, is the source of the complaint credible as a witness?). The process is quite similar to ascertaining the credibility of an informant by the police. We'll get to the reason why below.
If the BSA thinks there is something to the case, they will send a scary letter from the lawyers--we have reason to believe you are in violation of license agreements, etc. The letter will ask the company to "voluntarily" permit the BSA to come and audit the company's network to determine whether or not the company is in violation of license agreements.
If the company agrees to a "voluntary" inspection, the BSA shows up, installs a network app that scans the network for software from the BSA membership, and totals up the number of copies. They then ask the company to document purchases of all of the copies on the network--and they bill the company for the retail price of any copies that cannot be documented. Full retail can be a pretty stiff price to pay--but most companies figure that full retail is cheap compared to the cost of fighting the BSA in court. If the company pays up, the case ends.
If the company ignores the first scary letter, they get a second scary letter from the BSA lawyers. That is much more direct, and to the point. If the company agrees, the same "volutary" inspection happens.
But let's suppose that the company ignores the scary letters. If you've watched a videotape recently you will note that videotapes sold in the U.S. include a warning that copyright infringement is punishable under federal law, and is investigated by the FBI. Federal law permits private individuals (including corporations and associations) to gather evidence of a crime and present it to the feds for them to pursue. The BSA's initial complaint, buttressed by a "good faith" effort to enlist the company cooperation (that is, the first and second scary letters), is regarded by the FBI as justification for a warrant. (That's why the BSA evaluates the credibility of the complaint--that's a key part of the request for a federal warrant.) The FBI and/or the U.S. Marshals, with the BSA, arrive--unannounced--at the company site, with a federal warrant.
When they enter the premises they will serve the warrant, and they will announce, loudly, that everyone in the premises must stand up and step away from their keyboards immediately. These people are feds--they carry guns. They mean business. And they are serious. If this happens where you work, by all means, stand up, and step away from your keyboard. Do not try to be a hero for your employer and attempt to delete the 3000 bootleg copies of Leisure Suit Larry that you know are distributed across the enterprise. They can 'cuff you and arrest you.
Once the feds have "secured" the scene, the BSA people step up and install their network spy application to identify all the software on the network that doesn't have a license. If they find any (and they almost certainly will) they and the feds will propose a settlement: pay full retail, plus a whopping fine (like $1500 per copy) for each bootleg copy found. Or, face criminal prosecution by the FBI for copyright infringement--followed by a civil court action for damages after the criminal case is finished. Any company with half a brain (or anything resembling a competent lawyer) is going to cave and pay the "settlement". The cost (and the adverse publicity) of a criminal court proceeding is sufficiently onerous that its just smarter to pay up.
I have seen this happen at a former client, and recently declined an engagement with a prospective client because they just been raided by the feds and the BSA. There are too many good clients out there to bother getting associated with known bootleggers. (And if they cheat on their licenses, there's a good chance that they'll try to jerk us around too. Or at least that's the way we view it.)
This is, on the one hand, a compelling argument for paying for licenses and using license monitoring software to ensure compliance. On the other hand, this can also be a compelling argument for free (open source, home-brewed, or abandonware) software.
but, doesn't the "Innocent uptil proven guilty" concept only apply to criminal cases.
Except that this is treated as a criminal case. If it wasn't do you think US federal law enforcement would have anything to do with this? The standard answer of police (of all kinds) in a civil matter is "get a lawyer".
10 Billion in the GLOBAL economy is a mere drop in the ocean.It's not even that impressive if it were just applied to the USA... Sounds as lot less impressive expressed as 1.6 USD per person.
But what if you have all the licenses you need and ignore them or even better tell them, that if they want the licenses checked they better pay for the time and work that costs?
"By the way if anyone here is in advertising or marketing... kill yourself." -- Bill Hicks
I used to think the same thing. However, after a drawn-out argument with a lawyer friend of mine, she has me convinced that they can "search" you. The first reason they can is that a business can take "reasonable" measures to prevent theft. You're going to have a hard time proving that just looking in your bag on the way out is unreasonable. Also, did you know about their policy of checking bags before you entered their store? That's a form of implied consent. If you've been through their routine before and do it again, you've given up any right to not be searched by them.
Personally, when I go to Fry's I just walk at a normal pace out the door. If there's a line at the pink marker station I just walk out (waiting in line twice is unreasonable I think). If they ask me to stop and submit to a bag check (thereby immediately moving me to the front of the line) I will. I don't think they would invest money in paying the door monitor if they didn't think it saved them money in the long run. What costs (or saves) a business money ends up costing (or saving) the customer money.
p.s. I could be wrong, but I don't think I am. . .
Oh well, at least I tried!
Why this sounds like you're criticizing Microsoft's manuals. How unfair! Microsoft's OS manuals are excellent and thorough. For example the OEM copy of Windows 98 that came with my laptop included, at no additional charge, four thick books, including the 1300 page User's Guide, the 900 page Complete Guide to the Registry, and the 650 page Programmer's Addendum; the best part of that last was the plenitude of source code examples, to help users who might be inclined to use DEBUG to whip out a quick utility... Of course that can't compare with the comprehensive boxed set of hardbound manuals, and the ten-disc set of source code CDs, which came free with my copy of NT...
What? You mean you didn't get these manual sets with your copies of MS's fine OSes? Something must be wrong! Perhaps. in violation of their licensing agreement with MS, your OEM short changed you? I think you should call the BSA and complain.
Yours WDK - WKiernan@concentric.net
Worked for a company for about two months and one morning Federal Agents came in and audited all the Hard Drives. Apparently, a disgruntled ex-employee called the people who made a particular piece of software and told them that the company had payed for one license and was using 25 copies. Bottom Line: They had to have probable cause. They had to have a search warrant. They had to be accompanied by federal agents. So unless the BSA has somehow changed Federal Law, they can't just walk through your door.
I have found in the past that software companies don't usually bother checking local laws when putting together licenses and related material.
:)
If they are smart they put a clause in to the effect that "If any of this isn't legal then the rest still stands".
They count on a lack of legal knowledge among their customers.
This behaviour is hardly unique to software companies. It wouldn't surprise me if the companies know full well some of their conditions have no legal standing what so ever.
German courts for instance ruled that any agreement or license that was not shown on the outside of a box when buying software (ie. couldn't be read before purchasing) was not legal. Likewise, most limited warranties are not applicable in Holland simply because they interfere with Dutch consumer laws.
No doubt such things continue to exist, written in German and Dutch. And will probably continue to exist even after the vast majority of people know full well they are nonsense.
Except some kind of FUD to prevent all software used in the EU being purchased in Germany
How are they going to come in and investigate their piracy claims. I know we wouldnt let them in too redily. Also I *might* have a pirated copy of some software or some 30 day trial software on day 186, but I am about to buy the legal versions.
Are Companies Responsible for an individuals action????? or am I screwed all by myself?
Fry's shrinkage weenies come asking about my backpack, I wiggle it in their face and tell them "Take a look. I have nothing to hide."
The fsckers at the Burbank Frys have stopped hassling me ever since I got the transparent backpack.
The person who opens a store directly competing with Frys but with less attitude would prolly bury them. I try to get computer stuff at either the swaps or at Rogers Systems in Valencia...I hate giving Frys money I could give to nicer folks.
---- Hey Grrl Geeks! Your very own geek news site has arrived!
Knowledge is power. Knowledge shared is power multiplied.
Back when I was in Jr. High (1985 or so), and the hot machine of the day was the Commodore 64, a group of us CONSTANTLY traded copied games/etc. Anyone else remember Copy Q :) I better search my closet and make sure I destroy mine, since that program is now illegal to have...
Anyway, I've heard stories today of the SPA raiding schools and busting kids for doing what we used to do openly back then... Worse yet, the SCHOOLS themselves do so.
Now the BSA is setting itself up as a private law enforcement agency, and threatening to act as such. You are guilty until proven innocent.
The litigious nature of the post-80's US culture is sick. Why is it that when you turn loose the trial lawyers you lose the "rule" of law? (IE, "innocent UNTIL proven guilty", "probable cause", protection against unlawful search and seizure).
Or is the Constitution subservient to software licenses and statutory law (DMCA) based on them?
In 2000 America, is a non-lawyer truly free?
I hope so...because if I never agreed to any such license (or, indeed, never even purchased software WITH that license), perhaps one could haul the BSA into CRIMINAL court for trespassing and/or "unlawful detainment" or something similar, for the unwarranted harrassment. At least some sort of harrassment charge, perhaps.
A vote for the lesser of two evils is still a vote for Evil.
Hacker Public Radio is our Friend
My buddy Javier has recently tunred his employer in for pirating and using software from Macromedia. Macromedia apparently contacted his employer through their legal team and are going to sue him for 30,000 in physical damages and 150,000 in compensatory damages. His boss called him at home at 5 in the morning to let him know that he knew it was him and he was going to take him down with the company and that he was going to have to hire a lawyer and file bankruptcy because he helped his employer install the software.
I was kind of blew away by this. I told him to go talk to a lawyer but he said that he found resources on the web that claim he could not be involved in this because he is a work-at-will employee and it would fall under "Vicarious Liability" as his boss encouraged the use of such pirated software by buying him books and tutorials on how to use the software.
Any thoughts would be appreciated.
It's all for our safety/protection/the children, so what are you complaining about? Remember the terrorist bombing/shooting/robbery or Flight 880/Denny's/Flight 007?
Fight Spammers!
This ad was one of the most disgusting things I have heard in a long time. The gist of the ad was "Do you want revenge on your employer? Phone us and report them as software pirates."
I promise that I'm not kidding or exaggerating here. The commercial actually states several times how much trouble you, the disgruntled employee, can get your boss in if they don't have good records of their software licenses.
Now, I believe that businesses should legitimately purchase software and track their licenses, but it's often difficult to know where ALL such things are at any given point in time. This clearly is intended as a scare tactic aimed at executives, since we all know that if you look hard enough, you can probably find something that some employee brought in from home on a company computer.
What really sucks is how easy it is for law enforcement to get warrants these days. It seems that most judges just rubber stamp the requests. For example, that student who had all his PC's seized by the FBI on a warrant gained only because his IP address showed up in a server log...
The Constitution states that PROBABLE CAUSE must be shown before the government may search OR seize property or persons.
Or is this part of the Constitution like the 2nd, 9th, and 10th amendments, still there but ignored because those in the government find them inconvienient?
In 2000 America, is a non-lawyer truly free?
All of this despite of my being an atheist, of course.
I do not wish to remove from my present prison to a prison a little larger. I wish to break all prisons. -R.W. Emerson
yay, in under a minute. That should serve them right. I wonder If they're using microsoft software. Maybe I should go pay them a visit and force them to show me their licenses.
If the BSA can only find companies from internal snitches...
Then are 1 person or 2 person business, or for that matter family business at risk? Could they [BSA] ever find out.
"I don't want to believe, I want to know." --Carl Sagan"
The one remaining affluent market that is not yet saturating is Europe, but as a whole Europeans are much more open to free alternatives to expensive commercial software.
As well as laws in Europe being less friendly to the sort of stuff that software companies like to put in their licences in the first place.
Don't try this at home, kids.
Also, be sure to report yourself for copying linux cds at http://new.bsa.org/usa/report/report. pht ml
there are 3 kinds of people:
* those who can count
there are 3 kinds of people:
* those who can count
* those who can't
bull shit artists
MrCreosote Meow!Thump!Meow!Thump!Meow!Thump! "You're right! There isn't enough room to swing a cat in here!"
Estimated PCs Purchased = a
Office suites Purchased = b
% of pirated software = (a-b)/b
So, they count every PC, whether or not it's actually running an office suite. Hmmm. What about free (as in beer) software? Well, they apparently don't count it. So, they get these inflated figures, and scare everybody into giving them some sort of regulatory power.
Scary stuff.
I'd rather have someone respond than be modded up.
When you get the first letter.. just clean off your network or encrypt the stuff that you dont want to really delete then call the guys and say its ok... offer them a coffee while they find NOTHING ILLEGAL.. wave them goodbie and back to normal.. Of course it takes some work and effort.. but for a small startup company its probably better than the other solutions. :)
Since nobody was nice enough to provide a link to anything of note, here's a link to the article on the BSA site.
... GO slashdot effect!!
Note: Looks like the BSA site is already taking a beating
Click here for a link to the article from the BSA web site
And shame on you for your bad grammer God of all that is Taco.
Here is the official anti-piracy website in Italian.. couldn't find it in english
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*chuckle*
:)
What a silly bunt!
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The Business Software Alliance might be able to investigate you for piracy, but only if you (a) have contracted with them to allow this, or (b) they can convince a judge that they have probable cause to believe you have comitted an offence.
This also applies to the Bavarian and the British Columbia Software Alliance, but may not be true of the Brest Software Alliance,, or anywhere else where the old French business codes apply. Perhaps Singapore?
davecb@spamcop.net
Here's the commercial they're airing in Maryland.
First they send a letter, asking you to cooperate with an audit. If you ignore or refuse then they will be back with contract lawyers and federal marshalls and shut you down in order to secure the evidence against you (your servers and hard drives). Most choose the audit as it is cheaper than a shutdown. This has happened even in remote Alaska.
a farmer has the right to protect his herd from preditors. right to, and including when the herd dies because the farmer didn't think it was nessary to water the herd... *grin*
What I find is BS is if they are for real they should got for the throat when they find violators. I've worked for two companies that were audited, one very large other small. Both were treated the same way. First they warn you they want to do an audit. So everyone cleans up there machines in general. Then they do their audit and list the violations. Do the bust you, no they negociate a settlement. Both companies brokered a deal for buying x number of copies of software in violation and n dollars of fine. If we broke the law how come we still didn't have to buy enough licences for our business. I say its just another scam to make money.
If they have to whip out the lawyers and you lose they'll show absolutely no mercy in an effort to make an example out of you. Remember, copyright violations have criminal penalties associated with them, so they can try to put people in jail on top of taking far more money than you would have had to pay had you just let them walk in and audit you. So, no, they technically can't but if you have half a wit of business sense, you'll just let them for fear of the consequences.
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This sig has been temporarily disconnected or is no longer in service
Check out this story from some poor uk tech site:
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The Business Software Alliance aka The Pirate Busters is growing so frustrated in its hopeless efforts to cut down on software piracy that it has decided propaganda and misinformation is the way forward.
Visitors to Glasgow Central Station yesterday were surprised to be confronted by a Ford Transit van with a small radar and rusty Sky satellite dish mounted on top. What was this apparition? Why, the BSA's latest weapon in the war against software-stealing scum.
A wise reader asked one of the "consultants" what exactly the dishes were able to do and was informed they could detect PCs running illegal software. When pushed a little further, she admitted the van was "just a dummy" but the BSA still had a fleet of the real things rushing around Scotland detecting and nabbing unsuspecting criminals.
Expressing incredulity, things turned nasty and our loyal reader was threatened. He'd "better watch out" because the BSA with its new super software-finding equipment will "get him easily". He quickly ran off and slid into the shadows before he was photographed and his face wired to Interpol and the CIA.
Actually, I've never seen the phrase written, so my mistake is phonetic. 'despite'... 'to spite'... In any case, now I know better, and it makes more sense.
The REAL jabber has the /. user id: 13196
The REAL jabber has the user id: 13196
What you do today will cost you a day of your life
and someone who has worked at philmont... =)
I completely agree with disallowing openly gay members. Try putting this situation in perspective. With the exception of fathers of their own daughters, males are extremely prohibited in their participation in the Girl Scouts. You can work for an existing park, or camp, etc, but you aren't allowed to "just join" and be a leader.
This sounds quite scary, but if you work in a small office with legitimate copies of the software (If you only have four servers and have the original box for each copy of Windows you are running plus the ten that came with the workstations you have) and the BSA tries this, can't you sue them for a list of offenses? I mean, I know I haven't kidnapped anyone, and if some lawyer wrote me a letter asking me to search my residence for a kidnapped kid, I'd ignore it. If the feds busted down my down later searching for the same kid on the word of the lawyers who wrote the letter, not only is that person liable for slander, but for a multitude of other crimes as well. I mean, I would like to own my own company so someone could send the BSA my way, I think a few good lawsuits could bankrupt those nazis...
-Sternn
On the way out, they have absolutely no right to deny you the right to leave unless they're willing to place you under citizen's arrest with probable cause. As stated before -- refusal to be searchde is not probable cause.
If they don't have probable cause (as mentioned in a previous post), then all that they can do in response to a refusal to be searched is to ask you to leave (job done). If they try to stop you from leaving (short of a formal arrest), then it's called 'illegal confinement'. If they touch you in the process, you can probably add assault, and any assortment of civil and criminal complaints (talk to your lawyer on this). There's a reason why the stores responded in the way they did in a previous post that addressed this issue head-on.
`ø,,ø`ø,,ø!
Free Software: Like love, it grows best when given away.
IANAL, but my understanding is that in the US, "probable cause" is what is necessary to get a warrant, not what is necessary to go without a warrant. The cops cannot legally search anything without a warrant except under very special circumstances (such as that you grant them permission); they can, however, make an arrest based on something they saw without conducting a search.
Completely OT, this is thanks to the Reagan/Bush appointees on the US Supreme Court. I want to extend a hearty thank you to everyone who voted for the AWOL criminal who will add more of these folks to the Supreme Court. I want to extend an even more hearty thank you to all of you who voted for Nader, thereby making it very likely AWOL criminal will make Supreme Court appointments, especially if you live in Florida or New Hampshire.
So you are saying that I should have voted for gore, so I can have more goverment programs. Everyone seems to need a govt program according to gore. Since I have a job, pay my taxes (which by the was support all these govt programs), and don't ask for free handouts from the govt, I should have my own govt program? I should want more govt control telling me how I should shit, have sex, think?
Look at it this way, with bush we can have guns, and with guns we could have a revolution. With gore we can't have guns (they will become illegal) hence they are the supreme authority. What next gore for dictator?
This happens to be about the BSA, not the republicans or the democrats. And I'll vote for whomever I like because at least that is a right I currently still do have.
If ignorance is bliss, the world is full of blissful people
So, why should anyone else?
Please cut the Blackhat Spy Agency some slack.
The next step is they send the Lawyer Bigfoot letter demanding proof that the company doesn't "pirate" applications. The so-called "fines" are actually settlements extorted from businesses.
> The Business Software Alliance can almost certainly scrounge up one unhappy ex-employee in every large company on the planet.
If they found one at Microsoft, do you think they'd listen to him? Then again . . .
``Uh, Steve, it came to our attention that since you don't have a site license for your software, & we found three hundred copies of Windows 2000 without a license in your Redmond offices. You're gonna get sued for software piracy."
``What??? We own the &%$!! software!!! Are you stupid???"
``Steve, if we could have passed the IQ tests, we would have jobs as real police officers."
Geoff
I think I see a trend here. Maybe for them it really would be easier to muzzle the entire internet than to produce p
- Duplicating software for use or profit
- Installing a single package of software on more than one computer workstation without authorization from the copyright owner
- Giving or selling an unauthorized copy to another company or individual
As of December 1999, the copyright law provides for the recovery of damages for copyright infringement. Recovery includes payment of up to $150,000 per infringed work, destruction of illegal copies, and payment of attorney fees and costs. The law also allows the government to prosecute copyright infringers and provides for criminal penalties, including fines of up to $250,000 and jail terms of up to five years.Yes, my bad. Clearly commercial != closed source, and it is closed source commercial vendors that are holding their customers hostage. I have got nothing against commercial vendors that release their source code. In fact, I encourage them (by purchasing distributions instead of downloading them).
1.) Write a simple commercial application and attach a not so simple EULA. Make the application something useful for your target audience - perhaps an automatic evil EULA generator.
2.) Scan your web server logs for a download from microsoft.com or bsa.org of your "application."
3.) Demand an audit of Microsoft and / or the BSA. Use a network scanner to scan for your "application."
4.) Make them open holes in their firewall so you can remotely scan for and disable your "application."
4.) If they don't comply, call the Feds. Hey, its their rules.
It would be interesting to see their reaction with the situation reversed. I'm sure its no fun to be audited. Would they fight against this action in court and risk setting a precident against themselves?
They can sue me, and perhaps collect damages, or I suppose they could ask the state to prosecute me, and maybe the state would fine me, but I can't see where the BSA themselves could do anything more than send me a bill.
As for their investigations, they can leave a message just like everybody else, and it would help if they were polite about it. If I choose to cooperate, then I so choose, if not, then they go get a real cop or they go whistle.
Speaking of the BSA, have you read this bit from The Register? Pretty funny stuff.
This next song is very sad. Please clap along. -- Robin Zander
why didn't somebody register this domain before they got it?
I made the world software piracy level according to the BSA go down by setting back the clock on my computer ;)
Grades, Social Life, Sleep... pick two.
--Justin Mitchell
"2nd Place is a fancy word for losing" --Bender (Futurama)
This can be found at The Register in this story
A partial quote
Visitors to Glasgow Central Station yesterday were surprised to be confronted by a Ford Transit van with a small radar and rusty Sky satellite dish mounted on top. What was this apparition? Why, the BSA's latest weapon in the war against software-stealing scum.
A wise reader asked one of the "consultants" what exactly the dishes were able to do and was informed they could detect PCs running illegal software. When pushed a little further, she admitted the van was "just a dummy" but the BSA still had a fleet of the real things rushing around Scotland detecting and nabbing unsuspecting criminals.
When I started my new job here at the university where I used to study, one of the managers told me how Micro$oft used to come around on a regular basis (yearly I think) and audit all the software the uni was running at that time...
Seems one day one of the reps came around and saw some burnt CD's of some of the M$ OS's on the managers desk...
The rep doing the audit politely told the guy that he should make those disks as backups, mainly because the uni has a select licence agreement and the disks were still on the university grounds.
I think that since then the manager has done that with all the CD's he copies
"Minds are like parachutes: most people use them only as a last resort."
Man, I would sure hate that. My parts are my parts and they shouldn't investigate them!
But I think we should all stand up and tell the BSA we don't want our private parts investigated!
Check it out. It's no joke.
Or, maybe metal detectors because of the Oklahoma bombing? Yes, a metal detector would have stopped them from driving a truck into the building.
Why not require everyone to travel nude, so they can't hide anything?
Fight Spammers!
IANAL either, but I think it's more like "...proven guilty beyond all reasonable doubt" that only applies to criminal cases; in civil cases, the burden of proof is still on the prosecuting side, but they only have to prove that it was likely or some such crap.
..play that atrocity of a Flash game on the BSA website? ...
I'm speechless, especially on the question "What is Gnutella?"
Legally, in the US, the 4th amendment to the constitution grants everyone protection from unwarranted searches and seizures. They would need to be a law enforcement officer (which they are not) WITH a search warrant (which they won't have either) to be able to force a company to show them their software licenses. And that over-rides any click-wrap EULA crap on the software (no matter how evil and draconian it might be).
Theoretically, a law enforcement officer "in hot pursuit" would be able to perform search and seizure without a search warrant before hand. But I don't see that as a possibility with software licenses.
No, it's just another big-business and/or big-business crony trying to quietly slip you under their domination, they love trying to do that when you're not watching.
Here in Italy BSA is working with law enforcement, giving technicians to form "task forces" (hehe) which come to the place where your activity has "legal" address. If that place is you're home, they will however check your PC, to verify the serial numbers of your installed software. If you can't show that you actually bought it, you have to pay. The maximum penalty is three years in jail.
I worked at an east-coast univerisity until this summer and they were audited by the BSA. Basically one of the colleges in the University was ratted-out by a disgruntled employee. Interestingly, they only wanted to audit the one college, not the whole university. After many meetings between both party's lawyers, the fine was announced. It was somewhere in the six-figure range, even after being appealed down. The upshot was that even though only the single college was audited, the university decided to self-audit the rest of the university. So you can tack on all those hidden adminstrative costs to the official fine. Yours truly was part of that audit, what a nightmare. I'm making sure that any non-free software is legit. That school really has to watch their step from here on as they're now on the BSA *hit-list.
For reference, if you are ever audited by the BSA, you'll need proof of ownership. That means an invoice, credit card statement, or any other piece of paper that establishes who you bought it from, payment form, vendor order number, and the quantity purchased. Lawyers love paper trails....
Can they do this ? I think it all depends in which country you are ie. what laws apply.
I am pretty sure though they will need a warrant for this and they will have to be able to show some proof that the warrant is justified beforehand. I've seen large newspaper ads here in Holland a while back, saying that they "would be coming to your business to check your licenses soon" without mentioning this fact. I think they might rely on ppl being intimidated into allowing them to enter the company's or persons premises to investigate thus circumventing the need for a warrant. I for one wouldn't let them near anything without a warrant, if only for the fact that this is the proper procedure. I might have some confidential material on my pc's when they come to "check my licenses" and i couldn't justify just letting them peep at this stuff without a legal obligation. Does anyone know how often they are able to get a warrant and on what grounds ?
I have found in the past that software companies don't usually bother checking local laws when putting together licenses and related material. They count on a lack of legal knowledge among their customers. German courts for instance ruled that any agreement or license that was not shown on the outside of a box when buying software (ie. couldn't be read before purchasing) was not legal. Likewise, most limited warranties are not applicable in Holland simply because they interfere with Dutch consumer laws.
Does anyone have any direct experience with this ?
beauty is only a light switch away
Whatever happened to being presumed innocent until proven guilty? Why should the companies have to prove that their software is legal? BSA should have to provide concrete evidence that the software is pirated, not just raid someone based on a "hot tip".
b) They are mentioned explicitly in a company's site license, as an inspector to ensure software legitimacy
If you order a lot of closed source software in high volume, especially Microsoft Open License Plan, or Microsoft Select software, b) is indeed the case.
If you don't comply, they can revoke your existing licenses and then charge you with theft. Under the DMCA, they also have the right to remotely disable any software covered under the license agreement so that it is no longer functional.
If you live in the US, that is.
I love stores that want do this (like Fry's and CompUSA)... mostly because I just walk past the person. The conversation usually goes like this:
employee: "Excuse me I need to look at that bag!"
me: "No thanks," as I walk out the door.
employee looks dumbfounded and sits back down, dejected.
Whats bothers me most about this whole bag checking thing is that in big cities (like SF/NYC) these stores won't usually check your bag/backpack when you come in... so if you have no spine you are basically allowing them to search your bag everytime you go in one of these places. Fun.
--- I do not moderate.
As a consultant, I keep a lot of disk images of my client's installers on my laptop. I don't use the software myself (unless I own it too), but it is a great convenience for reinstalls and the like. What will the BS(A) spooks think of this? I bet they don't say 'hey, handy idea'.
...the little antennae that keep popping out of the top of my computer on a regular basis. Now I know that it's just my computer signalling the BSA about any illegal software I may be running :)
kc.
kc.
"You'll have to speak up, I'm wearing a towel." - Homer J. Simpson
I have a couple of laptops, all running win2k. When I bought them they had boxes of manuals and crap. But I move around a lot in my work, so I chucked the manuals etc. Does this mean I can't run the software anymore? I had to re-install office 97 on a machine that crashed. I have purchased a copy of office 97 for each of the machine, but due to my manual destructive tendencies, I had to use a serial number from the internet. Did I lose ownership to the software then? If the SPA came kicking in my door, could they sue me for not maintaining a copy of some little piece of paper I never read/signed?
Download your mp3s any way you want, and support the artist via FairTunes
. . . and some other remedies, but the BSA overstates its clout and risk. The Copyright Act provides only an award of actual damages to the plaintiff, actual unjust enrichment to the defendant (probably close to the retail price of the software used), or at the election of the plaintiff, statutory damages, which is a jury-determined award of no less than $500 and no more than $20K per work infringed (arguably, depending upon facts, not the same as per copy used). A prevailing party can also get (and typically does) an award of attorney fees. In cases of willful infringement, a prevailing plaintiff can get an additional statutory award of up to $100k.
That being said, nothing permits BSA to fine anybody, or to get anything from anyone until a judge or jury makes an award. As to searching and seizure, the Copyright Act DOES provide for ex parte searches in some cases of known infringement, when the searches are warranted.
However, in some recent 6th Circuit cases, a court held that an illegal search or seizure can constitute a civil rights violation and various torts, and that the lawyers representing a plaintiff can share in liability jointly and severally with their clients. So, they better get it right.
If a plaintiff does sue, however, they will ultimately be able to get complete discovery, which will likely include a tour of premesis and right to view computers on-site.
In short, BSA has a lot of clout, unless a defendant is prepared to defend himself. And this clout (threat of suit, threat of statutory damages, threat of attorney fees, threat of ex parte search and seizure and threat of being nasty) is what they use to justify their fine.
There are, however, counter-tactics that may be taken. Filing an action of your own, and making an appropriate offer of judgment can be used to create the possibility of an award of fees for a defendant, when the plaintiff wins but doesn't get their "fine" from the jury. If an ex parte search is unlawful, the defendants can seek remedies as well.
Whether any of these counter-tactics are available, or if available, advisable depends upon specific facts. You should always consult with counsel who has considered your specific case before making any decisions.
Here is how things go along in Mauritius where software is heavily pirated and used in commerce.
A friend of mine turned in a cybercafe owner because he refused to pay his wages and did some other evil things to him.
He went to a Microsoft office, and met a guy in charge of Piracy. He was advised to contact their lawyer, and he signed an official 'turning in' paper. Because the cybercafe owner was also selling computers will pirated versions of windows pre-installed, the lawyer sent someone to the shop who really BOUGHT a computer to check whether pirated software is really being delivered and to use this as evidence.
After a few days, the lawyer, a guy from the BSA, an independent technician, and members of the local police raided the place and confiscated nearly everything. The owner gave the lamest excuse of all: he was the victim of a theft and the robbers stole all his licenses!!!
In addition to running a cybercafe with pirated software and selling computers with pirated software, the owner was also detained for giving computer courses on pirated versions of Novell.
My friend was rewarded a few weeks after with a good sum of money.
Remember that its not straightforward, people dont just enter the BSA office and say "Hey, ABC company is using pirated software and the BSA people come rushing in with the police"
Remember, the BSA officials are NOT law enforcement agents. They do NOT have the right to come search your office, unaccompanied by the police and they won't and yes, a search warrant is required, at least where I live.
Dont put your employer in an embarassing situation. Dont use pirated software at office ok?
Maybe he sucks but you get your salary from him.
Not in my backyard (Australia). Our legal system derives from the English, so this one probably applies to most cricket playing nations...
Thornton vs. Shoe Lane Parking(Ltd). In his judgement, Lord Denning said "No person in a thousand ever read the terms and conditions".
Result: Long winded and finely printed conditions that guarantee the software publisher right to everything from your first born boy child to open access to your house day or night aren't worth a hill 'o' beans.
(Applies differently to businesses mind you - The escape clause applies to individuals, but not corporates).
(The original case was one of a guy slipping and injuring himself in a car park having driven his car inside, and accepted a ticket from the machine beside the sign that read "accepting a ticket means that you agree with all the mindless drivel in this terms and conditions document" followed by about 80K of text in 6 point courier with all kinds of escape clauses. The guy sued, the company pointed at the sign and blew him a rasberry. He went all the way to the House of Lords (The highest Court in the UK), and Lord Justice Denning said "No, YOU get stuffed...".)
I love it when the little guys win! :-)
I find your ideas intriguing and I wish to subscribe to your newsletter.
A company i used to work for was on the receiving end of a similar threat from the Software Publishers Association. Although all these arguments (they have no right, they're not an enforcement agency, etc) are correct, what actually happens is they inform you they have reason to suspect you're guilty of sw piracy, a federal offense (via disgruntled phonecall or whatever), and offer you the "choice" of prove yourself or they'll sue you. it's definitely "guilty until proven innocent", but unless you have all your license info in order, you're more likely to go for the cut-a-deal, let's do this w/o the feds version because it's cheaper, simpler, and faster, even if your inventory shows you're short on receipts and you have to pay their fine. they are acting in place of lawmaker, police, judge, and jury, but they would have no force if we a) weren't using their stuff, or b) could simply demonstrate our compliance w/ their licenses. so they don't kick your door in, they just threaten to have the fbi do it if you don't cooperate.
Recently on our local radio the BSA has been running "ads" stating something like the following:
:)
"Pirating software has large penalties, most buisnesses are caught because disgruntled employees and ex-employees report them. Unless you have no disgruntled employees or ex-employees you may find yourself audited"
...sounds like the IRS
If you think education is expensive, you should try ignorance -- Derek Bok, president of Harvard
The BSA is not a government agency. They do not have the power to come on your premises without your permission. They cannot use guns and cops to force their way in if you don't let them. They cannot confiscate any of your equipment without a court/government order.
All they can do is file a lawsuit, like anyone else can. So when is industry going to file a suit against the BSA for harrasment?
A Government Is a Body of People, Usually Notably Ungoverned
"One phone call can start an investigation."
"Unlicensed software: a costly mistake."
You see, the police are the strong arm of the government regarding criminal matters. The BSA isn't looking for criminal prosecution. The BSA is looking for civil damages. For a civil matter, the police are not needed for a court order to be served.
Of course, IANAL.
What COULD (and probably will) happen is (a) they will strut and threaten and lawyer you until you decide it's easier and/or in your best interests to comply so they'll get out of your hair and you can get back to doing REAL work, or (b) failing that they'll actually go and get a court order. The latter would probably be preferable (for you, the anally harassed), because even with a court order they (representatives of the BSA) couldn't do it themselves, the stuff would have to be confiscated and/or checked by court-appointed representatives - unless of course the BSA is cunning enough to get themselves appointed as said representatives...
Which all still leaves the burning question in my mind: what IS the proper plural of "anus"?
It is not legal for any civilian to make any search whatsoever in your property unless he or she has your approval. The only thing the B.S.A. could do is to address the local authorities. Only the police (FBI or whatever) can do a search in your property and only if they have a warrant.
So just relax...
think about it, theyll soon want a psych evaluation before they hire you so you dont come back and shoot them up or narc them out for software piracy.
We are legislating our country into anarchy. infinite information + infinite laws = chaos.
welcome to the police state, its going to be a scary scary world.
http://www.livejournal.com/users/cixel
If enough people are genuinely hassled by the offensive policies, [not only in later additional cost if they are caught 'stealing', but more importantly, even those companies/individuals which are honest will still have to go through the supreme hassle [and wasted productivity, etc] of being audited.
In the past, there really weren't any usable alternatives to commercial software. Now there are, in spades!
So heres to the BSA harassing ever unfortunate lout ignorant enough to enter needlessly into oppressive and overpriced contracts to get the same [or worse] functionality he could get freely.
Still, gotta feel sorry for those professional software niches not available for free yet, that many people need. [High quaility rendering/animation, for example]
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man sig
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the pen is mightier then the sword. the sword is mightier then the court. the court is mightier then the pen.
they have hired thugs for that. Officially the thugs are called 'federal marshalls'; unofficially, they are hired guns who work for major corporations that contribute to major politicians.
It's like this: Bill goes to Al Bush, and explains how all these people are robbing him and that because of that, he may not have money to contribute to the next campaign or sponsor the conference in $PLUSH_VACATION_SPOT. Al Bush then appoints a couple BSA people as special agents and sends them out with a few of the regularly armed boys. They knock on your door with a warrant and proceed to confiscate everything you have to stay in business.
Remember the golden rule. The BSA will always act in a legal way, because it is so easy for them to change the definition of 'legal'.
Aah, change is good. -- Rafiki
Yeah, but it ain't easy. -- Simba
The BSA relies on employee (or ex-employee) snitches. Once they have an informant, they can either persuade a law enforcement agency to get a warrant or go the civil route and subpoena your records. I've also heard tell of licensing agreements that give the vendors permission to inspect your premises and computers 24/7 to make sure your software is legit. I'm sure the vendor could assign its inspection rights to the BSA. Of course, that begs the question of how they know you've got any of that software whose licensing agreement lets them do this.
Seems like they could just copy all their software on to some CD's and reinstall it when they leave. And why cant you just have a duel boot to linux and windows and hide the windows partition? The linux being legit of course. I dont think its going to happen.
Can they raid your offices? No.
Can they forcibly audit your records or systems? Not without first filing a lawsuit, and then only as part of the discovery process-- which can be very invasive.
Can they levy a fine against you for alleged infractions? Sure. They can do this with or without evidence.
Are you obligated to pay the fine? No. Unless the fine is, in fact, a damages award resulting from a trial or settlement of a lawsuit.
Can they do something awful to you if you refuse to pay the fine or comply with the audit? That depends. I'd personally rather not go to court over this.
Why? Wouldn't this get thrown out in most jurisdictions unless there was strong evidence (i.e. someone has snitched) of wrongdoing? Yes. But the BSA and its members could very legitimately refuse to sell you any further software or licenses. They could also block your IPs from their download sites. You don't have a Constitutional right to buy their software. They can refuse your business.
But this is insane, isn't there something we can do? Yes. Don't buy software that is not Free.
I do not have a signature
Two quick points:
1) BSA is hedging their bets in case anyone wants to audit them... their web-site runs FreeBSD/Apache according to Netcraft
2) On their home page they mention Software Piracy costing the Global Economy over 10 billion dollars. Where do they get this number? Isn't this irrational, since usually, any money saved in one sector, is most likely going to be spent in another (new car, bigger house, nicer clothes). Okay, I *MIGHT* buy it if they said that it was costing the Global Software companies over 10B, although I'd still like to know where they are getting their numbers, but they don't say that. They say Piracy is hurting the Global Economy. Fine... prove it. Can they break thier numbers apart per country? Per Company? And how does the availability of software affect the "Global Economy" also? If for instance a Chinese shoe manufacturing plant is able to be productive and turn out more shoes (and thus in turn have more units that are sold) wouldn't this balance the 3 copies of MS Office 95 that they are using illegally? At least politicians try to lie believably. The BSA's "Global Economy" seems (to me at least) to reak of Marketspeak.
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Here is a story of a company I know,
A former employee of a engineering company called AutoDesk and reported that the company was using 14 or so illegal copies of AutoCAD. Within a couple of days the BSA and AutoDesk's own piracy division came in the middle of the night and started checking computers to see what software was loaded. The next day the employees came to work and were interviewed to find out any information they knew. The company settled out of court and ended up paying over $500,000.00 for the software.
I have heard of three other instances of this happening. I have only heard stories where AutoDesk is involved. They come in the middle of the night take inventory and fine you in the morning.
I don't know what involvement the local or federal agencies play in this but it would seem like the BSA or whoever would have to get a search warrant. But if they had some kind of prove that software was stolen how hard would it be to get one?
Heres my ultra-paranoid explanation. I would think that by getting ahold of this organization, that you might be putting yourself at risk of being investigated. Once they have you asking about prices and costs, they have you. you have no choice but to pay from that point on. Best bet: if you own pirated software, and want to make it legitimate, this may be your answer. But if you don't intend on paying for it, don't call this place up.
"they'll track you down like animals, like dirty, dirty animals."
-f
"Coming soon from Valve Software: BSA Counterstrike 1.0! Make sure to install a copy on every machine on your network!"
"Pinky, you've left the lens cap of your mind on again." - P&TB
"I can see my house from here!" - ST:
I live in Panama. we have a solid democracy and are very good at civil rights and all that. but the BSA actually storms into offices with judge orders and check computers, files, etc. they have penalized several high profile companies already with tens and hundreds of thousands of dollars (and we're talking offices of influential people or government officials as well as small companies)
we all know tha the main backer of BSA is microsoft (in the panama branch at least). So far they haven't broken any laws by doing what they do, they're just bullies at it....
oh, and they usually do it on friday at 4:50PM...
There are two kinds of people in the world: Those with good memory.
They can ask, but without a search warrent they can't come in. PERIOD. If they get one, they better have damm good reason other than a hunch. (can you say countersuit) It's the hastle factor. I am upgrading more of my software to open source to reduce the liability risks. Do you believe you could be at risk for not keeping the papers that come with your computer with a preinstalled OS? In my collection I have an OLD Tandy model 100 with Microsoft Firmware in it. I wonder if I am at risk if I can't find the receipt?
The truth shall set you free!
There isn't any "government" involved in this at all. It is just a lawsuit and your only hope of settling is to pay up. And, since it is an organization of lobbists and lawyers, you're not going to be able to fight it, either.
We better hope they don't succeed in getting this as a criminal penalty (like illegal use of music) or then you will have police coming in to check out your software licenses.
Yes - someone was arrested in Chicago for "illegal use of music". This might have been a copyright violation, but somebody found a way to criminalize it. As long as the BSA just files suit, you can't go to jail - just go broke.
And even so, since it's not mandatory to register your software, there's no way for them to know where to start. Microsoft, Adobe, et al can't just issue a list of US addresses who haven't registered any software and send the vans out, because even if that software is there, it could very well be licensed.
I think that we're safe, regardless. I probably have a piece of unlicensed software somewhere around here, but what's the incentive for the BSA to come after me, when they could just as easily go after some fortune 100 company that might happen to have 10,000's of unlicensed copies of MS office floating around on company notebooks.
I actually doubt that this is feasable, let alone cost effective. Picking out a single screen in a crowded office is not that easy, throw in a few walls and a couple of moblie phone signals, and you are going to be lucky to get anything. Also a lot of piracy goes on in small firms that buy single copies from shops, so no site license to check against.
Actually what they would probably do is get a Lawyer to go to a judge and get a court
order (not a criminal search warrant) based on the fact that most licensing
agreement require you, if questioned, to prove that you own the software that you are
using and maybe an anonymous report of software piracy. At this point you would
probably be ordered, by a judge and at you expense of course, to inventory your software
and to show the proof of ownership to the lawyers of the BSA's
satisfaction. At this point if you did not comply you could go to jail for violating the
judges order. If you did comply and you did not have proper licensing, you could be
sued, or the BSA could take the legally gather evidence to a federal prosecutor and get
them to charge you under criminal statutes.
IANAL but I play one on the NET
Historically, the claim of consensus has been the first refuge of scoundrels.
Recent reports have shown that the US market for PC's is at least beginning to saturate (it hasn't actually saturated). This will slow sales in the US market.
Except for a handful of small wealthier nations (e.g., Taiwan, Singapore, etc.) most second and third world countries are too poor per capita to pay the high prices for American commercial software. The software police will never be able to keep up with the amount of piracy in these countries.
The one remaining affluent market that is not yet saturating is Europe, but as a whole Europeans are much more open to free alternatives to expensive commercial software.
As a result of this, I think we will be seeing much more of the Microsoft police in the future as Microsoft and other large software vendors attempt to replace the lost revenue. Even our company has received Microsoft/BSA letter and we only have a few hundred employees.
This would be fun: as an employee of, oh say, Microsoft, go around some evening and install Oracle products on your fellow employees computers. Then rat out the company to the BSA. Wonder if the BSA would pursue its largest member?