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Employers Who Hold Back Their Employees?
greggman asks: "So, I'm watching 'Tonight 2', the night news program here in Japan and they are showing E3 coverage. I guess one game that hit it off was a game by KOEI called Dynasty something or other. They visited KOEI here in Yokoyama Japan but they had masked out all faces from the team. When the interviewer asked why, the company rep said 'because other companies would try to steal our employees'. That's messed UP!! I consider that to be akin to treating your employees like slaves. If you can't afford to keep your employees and therefore have to make sure they don't find out about better opportunities then you deserve to go out of business. It's their life not the company's. It almost seems like there'd be a law against action like that. All I can suggest is that you don't support companies that actively prevent their employees from bettering themselves." Couple this with the long hours, the draconian employment contracts, and the insane deadlines, and I begin to wonder if this guy has a serious point. For all the money that programmers make, do Employers do more to make their jobs harder than most?
"What do you think? I'm not saying a company should go out of its way to find opportunities for their employees but deliberately getting in the way seems to cross some kind of line to me.
I've actually run a company before and these kind of questions came up. At least once somebody called and actually asked permission to recruit somebody from us. He was a friend but had a good opportunity. I talked to one of my partners and he said we shouldn't get in the way. We were lucky our employee chose to stay as we were not big enough to really offer more but there was no way we were going to prevent him from deciding for himself which we felt like would be immoral and un-ethical."
Seriously, I don't think it's a big deal, yeah they don't show their face on TV, so what ? If some competitors want to get their names, you know they will.
I also make a 6-figure salary for doing a job that could easily be done by a semi-literate monkey with a bad attitude. I don't have to repair hazardous equipment, carry around radioactive waste, or clean up anyone's vomit. And I don't, really, have to put up with the crap the developers would love to give me. This job is easy in the grand scheme of things, and the pay is outrageously high. If you're not making as much as the developers, you're taking it up the ass and I have no sympathy - learn to negotiate next time.
Eventually you will find yourself on some boring project that is without any meaning to which you can relate. One day you will realize that your ass is getting fatter from resting on it all day, while your gut ever increases. One day you will look at the screen, rub your blurry eyes and sigh. You will be thinking about the mortgage and the car payments. You will be thinking about a wife whose ass has grown even fatter than yours, and whose personality becomes more astringent with each passing day. You will pine for a light which is natural and doesn't flicker at 60 Hz. You will have nostalgia for that time when your muscles weren't flabby and when your skin didn't have an unhealthy pall.
On that day, my friend. You will realize Programming is real Work.
Well, I myself have worked in Japan for a number of years now (coming on 6) and yes, it is a different world here. The thing about the game company does not surprise me in the least. I actually worked at a game development company for about 6 months before getting a better position as a computer programmer/scientist at a big pharmaceutical. It was my first time programming non-scientific software using Visual C++, so i expected long hours to start with and i'm not complaining about that. I learned a lot actually. But things quickly slid downhill respect wise from about the 3rd week after i started working there (once the novelty of having a foreigner around wore off). I was required to go out all the time, eating greasy food many nights a week 'socializing', going to picnics, etc. Nobody really wanted to be there in my perception unless they were either the bosses or just plain dorks with nothing else to do. After i stopped going to these things i started getting worse treatment. Every time i spoke up at our weekly meetings my ideas were shot down. Well, i've got enough sense to know that not all my ideas were necessarily good, but it was the scoffing attitude i hated. Everything had to be done by consesus, which was what the boss decided in reality, so meetings were usually a waste. One time, we even went (6 out of the 9 of us) to a conference in the US. I got yelled at for talking to people! No, i wasn't giving away information, just making contacts. They had no clue what the word 'schmoozing' meant. Met some cool programmers at the conference too but was told by my boss that they only wanted to get information from me on our development efforts. hmmm... and here i thought it was just that we all wanted to get pissed up for the night! I even got shoved once by my boss for talking without his permission. Almost decked the mother. They were really paranoid about everything. Finally, when i decided to say 'screw it' and quit, they wouldn't let me! They said i should just work harder (>70 hrs per week was mentioned). errr, yeah. They wouldn't release me until i discovered a MAJOR and illegal error in my contract and threatened them with it. The list can go on and on but i'll stop there. Needless to say, i managed to find a sweet job about a month after that so it all worked out in the end. My advice to those wanting to work in Japan? Be careful about working in the game industry. It's really hardcore, if you know what i mean. ALso, make sure other foreigners are working in your company and make sure they specify what you'll be doing before starting the job. Do some research and find out what their culture is like. Not all companies require you to go out and kiss your bosses ass 4 nights a week. Basically just use your common sense, trying to see through the cultural haze if you haven't been here before. And finally, be a team player but don't take shit from nobody! Who cares if it's 'just a different way of doing things'! It doesn't make it right and you'll end up a basket case if you try to fit in too much. Oh, and if you're asked (even in a surface sense) to participate in decision making (no matter how trivial) then that's a good sign. If you're not, get out, cause the end is nigh!
and I'm just looking for a better job within the same company. I've had three offers to work in different departments, I told my manager I was leaving and mentioned one of the offers and lo and behold the next day that offer was retracted without any reason (from "When can you start?" to "We don't have anything, sorry").
So I haven't told him about the other two and just told him I'm leaving regardless (even though now he's offered a promotion, pay increase + training after I complain). It's come to a point where if anything else happens we will all be having a chat with HR in the same room which I believe my manager would avoid even more then me leaving.
Btw, this is in the US so I doubt very much Japan has the market on this.
This seems to make sense to me. "Deep off-hours system work" means you (one person) are inconvenienced. Puting the down time during 9-5 means the entire programming staff as well as secretaries and other support staff which rely on the file servers being up are all ground to a halt with nothing to do.
Does this not make sense?
Atari totally did this until Adventure, the first game ever with an easter egg in it. Atari wouldn't credit programmers (who at that time were often also game designers, artists, sound engineers, and compossers) so the programmer of Adventure put in a hidden room to give himself credit. Atari did that for the exact same reason this company hid their faces. Its because of that the Activision came to exist.
Who created Pokemon? That should be common knowlege, right? Its the biggest thing the world of kids right now. "Nintendo created pokemon" is what Nintendo wants you to think. Shigeru Miyamoto (Donkey Kong, Excite Bike, Ice Hockey, Mario series, Link, etc) is the only Nintendo designer they've choosen to give any credit to. I guess Mario, Donkey Kong, and Zelda were big enough (to get their own cereal!) cultural icons their creator had to get noticed.
Even in most games when do you see the credits? When you beat the game! Most people don't get that far so never find out. Quite different than movies.
I guess Sid Meier should get credit for putting his name all over his product (and Brian Reynolds games like Alpha Centuri, Colonization, etc). At least people know him.
Every company hides its talent. It lets them pay the ones with the best talent the same as the ones without talent.
I hear the same gripes from insecure programmer peons about their team leads, and from team leads about architects. Or nurses about their supervising physicians.
Every cog in the wheel depends on the others. Some are rewarded with higher pay than the others. There is a place to argue the merits of this... it's called the job market.
Any system administrator that bitches about the hours required shouldn't have job. It's your job to be on call to keep machines up. You get paid to support programmers, so STFU and do your job. Some system administrators get paid to support financial analysts, or scientists, or surgeons. Accept the nature of your role, or get another job. Support staff is not inherently less talented than development staff, but it's just that... support staff.
Of course, I'm just an anonymous, cowardly developer gloating that I have zero-stress job that only requires fifteen hours a week to pull down six figures. Go get a higher paying job doing something else and leave sysadminning to those who love it.
...how would the rival companies know who they are?
"Yes, may I speak to your head game designer? The guy who looks about 30ish, long dyed-brown hair, angular face, stubble... oh, and I think he wears an orange T-shirt."
Notice also that it's Koei. Not Matsushita, not Toyota, not Nikko Securities, not the Ministry of Education. For young hi-tech Japanese these days, job loyalty doesn't mean much more than it does to their American counterparts. The newsstands in Japan are always full of career magazines with advice on the best way to job-hop.
The fact that management is concerned about losing employees should indicate that it is, if not a major problem, at least a possibility.
I also dispute your claim that "The working conditions for technical workers are far better than what you will find in America." Even in high-tech, the offices are cramped, the hours are long, and the bureacracy is thick. And don't forget the infamous Tokyo commute. I think most Japanese high-tech workers can only dream of working in U.S.-style conditions.
Finally, "yamato" is just an ancient name for Japan. Perhaps you meant wa, or giri, or some other oft-(mis)used term.
Heh, that is one thing I really do hate about the programmers. They seem to have all these 1-week deadlines; they figure if they can hand off a mostly-compiling chunk of code to the production group (me) at 6 pm on a Friday then, well, they made their deadline and damn the sysadmins if the new release isn't online until Monday. I have a rule about Fridays too: anything given to me after 4 pm waits until next week. We all have to draw the line somewhere...
My job isn't only to compile it, but to install it on the production systems. It's an ASP sort of thing... Presumably (ha-ha) they've already checked that it compiles and tested it before I get it. In practice, they give me a big chunk of untested code that might or might not compile, and will be genuinely pissed if the systems aren't running it by the end of the day. Naturally I can't tell you what company this is, but if I were you I would not do business with all ASPs just to be on the safe side.
Sure, blacking out their faces might be a little extreme Extreme? It's inane. Can you call directory assistance to get the number of "the guy who looks like this"? Cameras set up all over the place doing face matching, so you can track their patterns and have an attractive recruiter "accidentally" bump into them? Not releasing names is one thing, pictures of faces quite another.
Ooh, a sarcasm detector. Oh, that's a real useful invention.
Yamamoto?
I worked as the inter/intranet web designer for a small company one summer (at least that was the third task they assigned me after ignoring my reccomendation on what they hired me for in the first place) This was a place called "Carney Interactive", a small place in Alexandria VA that did a lot of training multimedia for gov't contracts. We wanted to get people to feel that we had a good, competent, talented group. I said "well, we do. We've only got about 20 employees, why don't we put some bios on the web to show everyone what we're like?" The guy I was working for (Jim Carney) looked at me like I was a lunatic. "But other people will try to hire them from us. There will be headhunters. No. I forbid this" he said. I was shocked...this was the first time I'd encountered something like this. after about another month there, realizing the insane hours he demanded towards the end of the product cycle in order to get the bugs out before these things went out the door, I wasn't surprised. everyone in there wanted out, they just didn't know how. I hope when the tech boom swelled it took some of them with it. good people, generally.- --------
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All that glitters has a high refractive index.
You see, without that little doohicky, the universe stops.
http://propheteer.org
The default assumption that of overwhelming cultural relativity ("who the fuck are you decide what is backwards and what is not") is the the same philosophy that would allow, for example, the government of China to say "Human rights are a western concept - in China there is no need for freedom of speech". While it would be unreasonable to expect another culture to be identical to that of the US, expecting all aspects of non-American cultures to be beyond reproach is silly. (After all, there's so many things screwed up with American culture, that I can't imagine that other cultures could be perfect)
It is true that ignorant cross-cultural comparisons often lead to prejudicial stereotypes; I, for example, would be unsuited to make general statements about Japanese culture, in the business place or elsewhere. However, I see no evidence that this poster is speaking from a position of ignorance or shows a marked lack of experience with the Japanese workplace.
Perhaps you know something which would contradict their observations. If so, please share that - calling all Americans cultural bigots is like shooting fish in a barrel, only without the tasty fish afterwards.
Here in America, employees are their own product and must engage in their own marketting of themselves. What the employer is doing in the abovementioned example is literally _stealing_ the identities of the employees to prevent their existence from being known. The employer is simply hiding something that does not belong to him-- the faces and identities of the employees. It is little different than an employer's decree that employees may not list what they did for the employer on their resumes.
-Dean
No. I've yet to see a union that's done anything constructive. All they do is blackmail companies to try and extract unreasonable pay and working conditions.
"The invisible and the non-existent look very much alike." -- Delos B. McKown
Perhaps things are different in the US, but here in the UK, that's just simply not true. Railway workers have recently been on strike because management tried to impose a uniform that included a red waistcoat, and they didn't like it. Virtually all the recent strikes in the UK have included an element of the unions insisting on jobs for life -- no redundancies in the future. The rest of the country don't have that luxury, and it pisses me off to see public service workers striking to demand it. Striking means misery for millions trying to get to work / send a letter / whatever else.
"The invisible and the non-existent look very much alike." -- Delos B. McKown
Maybe they are concerned about their programmers getting assassinated by anti-game terrorists.
Death to the demon [YOUR NAME HERE]!
"Trademarks are the heraldry of the new feudalism."
Japanese compaines, which are well known for their high quality (and TQM, etc), value their employees as assets to the company.
I have read somewhere that there actually are two types of Japanese companies. The big keiretsus (think Mitsubishi) where good students get employed and spend their whole life as safe sarariman, and the small contractors who try to survive around the keiretsus and offer no job security, not so good work conditions. The contractors are used as buffers by the keiretsus.
Is that vision right?
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Men with no respect for life must never be allowed to control the ultimate instruments of death.
GW Bu
Personally, though, I think nickname credits are usually just meant to be cool. These kind of nicknames also go back a while -- remember "NAMCO ORIGINAL program by EVEZOO" from 1982? Then again, I'm sure protective companies like Koei would rather not credit their oh-so-treasured personnel by name...
Those who claim this kind of thing is peculiar to Japanese culture are misinformed. In fact, I would suspect it to be typical in the computer game industry. Computer game positions typically pay 10-20% less than "traditional" IT positions. It's also a "hit-based" industry. Computer games have become so ruinously expensive to produce that you either get filthy rich with a monster hit (like HalfLife), or you find yourself bankrupt when you discover your vision doesn't resonate with the market (like Daikatana).
I have some personal experience with this kind of "forced anonymization". I used to work for $(MUMBLE_SALTPILE_MUMBLE) in Redwood City, CA, which at that time was a game console company. One of the products being internally developed was a saved game file manipulator which would let you manage the very limited battery-backed RAM for storing saved games. Naturally, such a program does not consume a noticeable fraction of a CD-ROM, so the author walked around the office with a video camera saying Hi to various employees, compressed it, and put it on the CD-ROM as an easter egg.
Shortly before going gold, our corporate counsel ordered the video deleted from the CD. The reason? Competitors might see the video and recruit our people away.
The irony is that $(MUMBLE_SALTPILE_MUMBLE) voluntarily threw away so many people through its myraid "reorganizations" that it hardly mattered. Today, their stock is in the tank, and they haven't released anything imaginative in at least three years.
$(MUMBLE_SALTPILE_MUMBLE) isn't even the first company to do it. Those with longer memories and grey hairs will remember that Atari, back when it was owned by Warner Communications, absolutely forbade any author or artist credits for the games and software they published. Their position on this softened slightly when the easter egg in the 2600 VCS game Adventure became widely known, but it was this policy that was one of the primary motivations for a bunch of Atari people to jump ship and form Activision.
Schwab
Editor, A1-AAA AmeriCaptions
Besides, US companies have done this before...ever heard of the IBM Songbook?
Not unless you're a slave.
As others have noted, it's primarily a culture thing. In the US, covering someone's face is the same as saying that they're not worthy to be considered human beings. Those accused of serious crimes often have their faces covered, for example. The face (and especially the eyes) is the window on the soul. Covering someone's face is like saying, "You have no soul." Which, if you'll read some history, is the argument used to justify slavery here. It was said that it wasn't a problem to enslave Africans--they weren't really human because they didn't have souls.
I'm not sure I understand the story about your girlfriend - if this is the case, how do Japanese companies hire anybody? Assuming that leaving your job is reason enough not to get hired, presumably being fired from your job is also reason enough.
So how do they find people who have not been fired and who are not leaving their job? Do they only hire people from companies that go out of business?
Or was it that she had already left her job when she was looking for a new one?
Tim
I graduated from Rose-Hulman in '94. Starting salaries are up significantly since I left. This year they averaged $51,378. I've unofficially heard that the CS students were starting higher than the engineers. The highest offer was $72,000.
e rs .htm
http://www.rose-hulman.edu/news/articles/joboff
Joe
Joe Batt Solid Design
I often end up working for morons with no specs and no documentation, ridiculous deadlines and THEN they take away my resources (human & other,) but they don't want to know about the schedule slipping.
I earn my salary to buy my Aspirin and Tums. I had it a lot easier before I got into this racket.
MSBPodcast.com The opinions expressed here are my own. If you don't like 'em... Think up your own stuff.
I sometimes wonder about the average age of the slashdot crowd these days... either its getting lower or a lot of you were born with spoons in your mouths...
1. Be thankful you work in an industry where your employer thinks enough of you to want to protect you from predatory competitors.
2. Be even more thankful that you work in an industry that contains competitors willing to spend more money to poach you in the first place.
If your biggest worry is that your employer might be "hiding" you from the guy down the road who'll pay you an extra $30K a year to do the same job, then resign and take out full page advert saying you're available...
No? Can't take the chance of losing the security of your current job?
Life's like that.
'sapientia potestas est'
Actually, I think the U.S. has "been there, done that". Remember the Organization Man?
The salaries you quote for IT are way off.
.com industries) And from what I've experienced, they're about right for the value most IT people provide to their employers.
The "typical" programmer, Unix admin, or network guy in the US makes $50,000, some more, some less. Contract workers are a completely different story, but they're the first to go when budgets get cut.
Just because the crowd you know, or the Slashdot crowd for that matter, makes a killing in IT doesn't mean that the majority do.
Try reading a salary survey from a weekly like Computerworld. Granted this one is from mid-year 1999, but things don't change much year-to-year in the "real world" of IT. Look at the figures: Average programmer = $45,000. Average network admin = $49,000.
These numbers are completely on-par with my knowledge of IT in media, manufacturing, retail, and even pharmaceutical companies. (having consulted in these less glamorous than
Here's a challenge: Try finding a commercial web site that gives credit to the individuals who created it.
"It's here, but no one wants it." - The Sugar Speaker
The more I think about this the less I agree with the questioner. The company is not doing anything to hold the employees back. The employees know full and well who the competitors are and if they were interested in leaving, they would contact them.
I do think it is unfair that the employees are not getting personal credit for their work. If, note the IF, they do get full credits when the game is released, I don't see this as unfair. when you are in major crunch time few things ruin your day like the non-stop ring of moronic recruiters who are sure they can offer something better.
If you don't like your job, leave! Sometimes people can't leave though. My girlfriend works in a very specialized security position, but is currently in the middle of a workers-comp claim and can't leave her job without giving up the claim. The company has abused her through this for over 2 years and pays her 40% less than her co-workers because she can't leave. As soon as the legal paperwork is settled she is sending out her resume to every competitor they have.
The message I have is that if the people get the credit when the game is released then more power to them and the company - they will get poached when the game is _finished_ with major kudos, and until then they don't have to put up with 13 calls a day from pain in the ass recruiters.
* not all recruiters suck, but they do tend to be annoying.
- Chris
-- I need more coffee. It's Monday. There is no such thing as enough coffee on a Monday.
That during the insanity of the 1999-2000 dot com craze (remember back then ;-) ) one company I contracted with wouldn't connect anyone calling up a developer when rung through the main receptionist. Unless you already knew the employee's extension, you were instead routed by the receptionist to their manager who would check that you weren't a head-hunter.
One developer's girlfriend got **really** pissed off when she was grilled over who she was, where she was calling from, where did her boyfriend lived, etc. When finally asked why she wanted to speak with him, she told the manager that she wanted to know what time he would be home so she could properly f*ck him. The developer went ballistic and stormed the CEO office and threaten to quit. The company's policy soon changed after that.
Don't lump your situation into everyone elses. Sure, it's not uncommon for programmers to make more money than sysadmins in the same company.
A bad sysadmin can compromise data. A bad programmer can slow everythign down. A bad janitor causes a stinky workplace. Bad management causes reduced workflow. It's childish to hide behind the 'All your servers are belong to me!' attitude; yes, you could destroy them. The janitor could also burn down the building. You do not determine what you get paid by what you are capable of destroying.
"You can have the best code in the world, but if you have a bad sysadmin, your data can be compromised."
Well...
You can have the best sysadmin in the world, but if your code sucks, it still sucks.
If you are not happy with the compensation you get for the hours and duties you have, seek new employment, or renegotiate current employment. I can assure you there are plenty of other sysadmin positions in the world where people are happy to do what they do.
Also, if you feel it's common for programmers to get paid more than sysadmins (IT IS, btw..), and this makes you jealous, why not seek a programming career? And if that's not your thing... perhaps that's why they get paid more than you?
For many syadmins, for the first few years, it's a power trip. Once you get over that, you may get into the real sysadmin jobs, where you actually get respect from your developers and managers, where you get paid a 6 figure salary, and don't feel bitter all the time.
The attitude will show up in your work too. I can think of several deveopers at my previous job whom, after a couple weeks on the crew, came to me and actually thanked me for my help, and mentioned that I may be the first sysadmin they've had to work with who didn't have 'head up ass' syndrome.
If you don't like the way your department is run, do somethign about it. If you can't, because you aren't allowed, perhaps you overestimate your position in the corporate food chain.
8 people and around 170 sun servers is *not* rediculous, one of the benefits of heterogenous networks and unix is that one admin can handle a lot of machines.
You seem to feel that your life revolves around your job, and you'll find many programmers who's lives does NOT.
The fact that they work 9-5 should tell you something; they have a life.
Not working 9-5 as sysadmin usually means you can set your own schedule. Yes, you have to do 3am upgrades sometimes.. but, you should also be able to work shifts that meet your lifestyle requirements.
And how do you compare 'rank' between programmers and sysadmin? I don't understand.
i was under the impression that in japan the employees were expected to spend their entire carrer working for the same company, and that since they earn their way up the ladder by learning everything about the field, they would be of great value to another company.
*shrug* different country, different culture...
this is just a placeholder till i send back my real sig from the future.
Of course, the real golden rule is "He Who Has The Gold, Makes The Rules".
>>Maybe their employees were extremely ugly or hideously deformed, and they were just trying to spare us the horrror.
I thought the slashdot crew was US based...
Jesus was all right but his disciples were thick and ordinary. -John Lennon
Mis-used is the word. Counted the number of "I've never been to Japan but I heard that..." postings in this thread?
Seems that any time there's a discussion about a foreign country we see "I've never been to (fill in country name) but don't they (fill in painfully ignorant, stereotypical viewpoint).
z@ph0d: Lifetime-employment died with the bursting bubble.
Geekoid: The term is karo-shi. Also died with the bursting bubble.
As Riktov has pointed out, the younger employees, especially coders, are VERY mobile and talent scouts will park outside Koei waiting to pounce on their best and brightest. They have a VERY good reason to be secretive.
If you don't want to repeat the past, stop living in it.
The fact is, everyone knows that's there's a huge number of "hacker groupies" that are dying to get their claws on these "men of men." Not only do they have secure jobs, but they have stock options!
"My last boyfriend was a star football player," says Jenishi Satorrokapu. "He was a real asshole and only wanted me to cook dinner, clean the house, and give him oral sex. There was no feeling or emotion to him, no love at all! Then I discovered "geek-men", guys who are perpetually lonely and desperate for a date. They go all out in making me feel wanted and loved! Why go out with an asshole when you can go out with your best girlfriend, instead? Besides, they work such long hours that a girl can go out and, uh, have a little fun on the side!"
Increasing, these Geek Groupies have been tracking down star video game programmers.
"OH LOOK! There's Jatoro Nagaou, the writer of the Final Phantasy Star XIX soundtrack!" exclaimed Nigiri Sappora as a rush of girls flocked to the front of the KOEI headquarters gate.
KOEI, being wise and prudent, has decided to take action against these Groupies.
President Miyamoto Yakarimato stated "The problem is, see, is that these guys don't get out much. They spend 110 hours a week on salary and stock options coding our next game. When one of these wild vixens gets ahold of him, it's all over for him. Instead of jerking off in the bathroom, or using something like the Sony VIBRABO doll, they have a real female to poke an prod around. Job vs. nookie, it's a really easy decision for them to make. It's devastating to their productivity. Even while they're at work, they spend hours browsing porn sites looking for new ideas for their new Rabu girls. We really can't win without drastic measures."
These drastic measure include forbidding the press from taking pictures of the programmers and development team to protect their identity and their productivity.
GNU/FSF founder Richard Stallman stated "FSF is not interested in sex or stock options. Where do I apply, by the way?"
If you were me, you'd be good lookin'. - six string samurai
Instead of relying on your employer to provide 'advertising' for you, why not set up a personal web page for yourself ? It would be a simple matter of describing your past work experience, and the name of your current employer, plus a bit about what exactly you're doing. As long as you don't mention anything that could be construed as leaking confidential information you should be okay (or show it to your employer/lawyer first). Google should take care of the rest.
The wording can be chosen between desperate for a new job and very happy with current job.
Whether Japan or the US, the same thing happens in corporate life. You cannot steal an employee, you can only convince them to get up and walk of their own accord.
--The basis of all love is respect
As a requirement to graduate at UIUC, everyone has to take a non-western humanities class of some sort. Mine was "Introduction to Japanese Culture."
One of the topics discussed in that class was the way Japanese businesses work, a concept that seems fundamentally wrong to most Americans. I can't speak as someone who's been to Japan, but we were told that Japanese corporations value loyalty and unity very highly, especially when compared to their American counterparts. At a Japanese board meeting, the CEO will introduce a new plan for the future, and everyone will show their support for it, regardless of their feelings. Anyone acting as a dissident would corrupt the "Wa" (loosely translates to peace and harmony among people), thus hurting the company.
Along the same lines, workers are expected to keep their jobs and advance through the ranks based on time spent at the company, rather than exceptional work and ingenuity. We were told that a Japanese worker leaving a company for a job at a competing firm would start at the bottom of the ladder in his new job, regardless of past experience. However, that's been changing in the past few years as competition met greater acceptance in the marketplace. It appears that now, those rules are losing their strength, since competing firms will offer pretty nice incentives to draw the best employees away from a company. It's interesting to see the spirit of competition overwhelming the traditional conservative ethics of the workplace (imo).
Of course, that's all based on a class I took. I don't really know anything about Japan.
chris
I consider that to be akin to treating your employees like slaves.
It is pretty clear that you've either lost your grip on reality or history. Most likely both.
Of course a company isn't going to advertise all the great things individual members have done to other companies! What benefit is there in that? While you work for the company, you stand as a team, and that should be sufficient. When you're applying for a job, drinking beer with your friends, it's then that you can insert the missing "I" into team, but to expect the company to? You're off your rocker.
Now granted the company handled this pretty poorly -- a better decision may have been to not include a picture, etc. at all -- but that is far from a company holding an employee back.
Stop expecting your company to be your recruiter, and get off your ass and do it yourself (or retain one). Stop being an idiot. Cliff, stop posting idiot stories.
Humbly,
-Bill
SlashSig Karma: Excellent (mostly affected by moderatio
Soooo... because *one* industry does it, everyone does?
I have no idea who made my car. I have no idea who made the hardware behind my pilot, or my laptop, or my CPU, or my graphics card... you get the point.
The exception does not make the rule.
SlashSig Karma: Excellent (mostly affected by moderatio
They wanted to give credit to the 'team' rather than individual employees, back in the early days. This didn't go unnoticed, and you had a lot of unhappy programmers / game designers out there. This, BTW, has changed. Well, at least, I though that until I read your story.
> we respect your work... but programming is creative
Then you obviously haven't run into an excellent systems administrator.
The application programming team has quite a bit investested in a single-threaded billing code that is horribly inefficient and can't get the bills out on time. What does the creative systems administrator do after the obvious tuning efforts? Looks at the way your processes hit the CPUs, then adjust the time slices of the scheduler, disables interrupts on specific system boards, and errects processor sets to get you that 25% boost because your team has programmed itself into a corner.
He then goes on, after a process trace, to tell you where your programming efforts have failed, beyond the obvious single-threaded issue. You pull information from the database via TCP/IP, and you only pull a single record at a time, so you're stuck in the overhead of database transactions. And yes, he has the metrics in hand to prove it. Fix your code, he says!
A good systems administrator is proactive. He anticipates things before they are going to happen, and either solves them before they happen, or has a solution ready for when it does happen. And he keeps the programmers honest. Do you want me to throw more hardware at this, or do you want them to fix their code, Mr. Corporate Accountant?
You can't say that a systems administrator isn't creative. If they're not creative, either their job doesn't place weighty demands on them, or they're not very good at what they're doing.
That aside, a systems administrator keeps your systems alive. Do you want a good one, or a bad one?
Lets face it; really good programmers can be easily worth a great deal. It's about time the industry be made to recogize this.
We need agents. Not just recruiters, but agents, just like professional atheletes and actors. I think a lot of techies would actually smirk at the idea, but it makes me sick when big game/tech companies make wads of cash, but only the CEOs and other mgmt get the dough, and the coders get the shaft.
I have no sympathy for the programmers.
.profile and wants it restored from daily backups.
:-)
At my current place of employment, it appears that the application teams are considered to be of a much higher caste than us lowly system administrators. They work a purely 9-5 day, and schedule any system work for deep off-hours. Code releases? Done during business hours.
It's crazy. I mean, we're the ones responsible for keeping the systems running. You can write the best code in the world, but if you have a bad sysadmin, your data can be compromised. Heck, your app may not even run at all! And of course, we end up doing the chode work like installing JDK's, installing Oracle (since root needs to run the root.sh script, we have to be around every time Oracle is installed).
There are 8 of us, and 170+ Sun servers. Each programmer works on only one application. That's not to say their job isn't important -- but the world isn't all about programmers. Us sysadmins get called at 3:30am when a disk fails. Or when the power goes out. Or when some application bonehead deletes their
And you say programmers have it rough...
Oh, and I make 2/3 what programmers of my same rank do.
But at least I get root. And they don't.
Actually some colleges do have courses in systems adminstartion. As for creativity, a good sysadmin is that just like a good programmer is.
A good unix sysadmin is really a jack of all trades. You need to know bits and pieces of many things, as well as be a good troubleshooter and be able to keep up with the information glut and fast moving industry. Maybe you see htat sysadmin playing a game at 3 in the afernoon, but if something needs to be done at 3am who does it? The sysadmin, everyone's job is important and everyone contributes doesnt matter what you do (unless your a llama).
And DeVry/ITT tech will train a monkey not a sysadmin.
this space for rent
As someone who is about to exit college and enter the programming field, I have a vested interest in this stuff. However, before we all jump and attack companies like a bunch of blind monkies, let's look at a few things. First, it takes more than just programmers to make a good game. In fact I've played a lot of well coded games that sucked. A lot. The thing is that people (esp. higher-up types in companies) don't necessarily get this. As such they'll use anything they can to woo top shelf programmers to their company. And just like in the big internet boom/bust that we have been witnessing, all of the bonuses and little extras add up to cost a fortune that will bankrupt a company that isn't producing a really incredible product. Think of it as a rate war. Airlines used to have rate wars that would be great for people flying but would bankrupt the littler companies, regardless of whether the littler companies actually had better service. This is a typical phenomenon and Japanese companies realize that this stuff happens a lot throughout industry and they wish to avoid it by avoiding having their employees be enticed away by people who, in some cases will put them out of business, but more likely than not will put the company from which they pirated the programmers out of business at the same time that the pirating company runs itself into the ground. If everyone goes under except for the few big guys who can survive a storm like this then everyone here will just be complaining about monopolies/collusion in the gaming industry. At least try to accept that there may be other ways of viewing things and that not everyone is out to get you and take you for all your worth. Paranoia is good, but only to a point.
Most definitely. I hope that in a few years I won't be adding the tag comment "sadly so" to this, but we'll see. Anyway, these are my feelings now and thanks for paying attention
-Mike
I think Dodi Al-Fayed and Princess Diana would disagree.
Programmers deserve much credit, but artists do as well. It takes an effort from both sides of the fence to make a game successful; programmers & artists. In my opinion the company in question is being protective of their employees, and that is not the big issue. The big is that credit is not being given where credit is due. That is the underlying issue.
I also agree that if a company did this to me, I would brush off the old resume, call a head hunter, and find myself a new place to work.
I would not ever, ever rely on the better job to find me.
Just my two cents.
Pete
What's a sig? Pete Brubaker
I don't think this is all that unusual. Certainly in the mobile telecoms field I've heard of companies (saying nothing about the one I might happen to work for..) removing all reference to the word 'mobile' in peoples job-descriptions, unit-titles etc, to try and make it harder for headhunters to target people in those specific areas.
If you have people you know work in areas with skill-shortages, you're hardly going to encourage people to try and poach them are you? If your employees are genuinely unhappy, they're going to move of their own accord, but surely any employer is within their rights to try and stop headhunters targetting specific people who are currently quite happy in their current jobs?
Mabye so. But companies should try showing some yamato first, as a sign of good faith.
The goal of most employers are to keep their human resources. They've invested time and money in them: Headhunter commisions, training (on-the-job and formal), etc.
In addition, these resources house valuable corporate intellectual property. To let them leave is to give away this property to competitors.
At the same time, it's in the best interest of the shareholders, company owners, or Venture Capitalists to minimize salaries - to maximize profits.
Therefore, the best policy is to have the human resource (1) sign a non-compete agreement so that they can't work anywhere else without hiring an unaffordable lawyer, and (2) have the resource wear a bag on their head.
I didn't intend to imply that America is supreme. However, when it comes to work environments, it's doing better than Japan, and the Japanese people are "waking up" to the fact that they don't have to take that shit anymore. But nothing would disspoint me more than if Japan were simply to slide into being a baby America. The 'group mentality' of the society is what I cherish most about my experience here.
It's unfortunate that you are unfamiliar with other countries' business practices and can get modded up for an exagerated but boldly-stated dismissal. The job situation in Japan is not what it is in America. In fact, it's my impression that no other country pampers their IT the way we get pampered, but I'll stick to what I know.
In Japan, when you join a company, the job is your life. Your friends and family are distant second. 10-12 hour days are the norm. You skip lunch and dinner not infrequently. If you leave at 5, they look at you funny, as though you're not a team player. And, if you're not a team player, you don't get promoted or get raises.
It's virtually impossible to get fired, but I can think of better things to do than languish in an entry level position my entire life. Moving to a new job is difficult, because a primary virtue is Loyalty, and if you quit your old job, how can they expect you to be Loyal to them?
The Japanese are in the process of westernizing to a more individual society. People are just now daring to try to change jobs, and wondering exactly why the hell they're spending so much time on the job. Management is starting to notice this, and I expect they're a bit panicky. Which is unfortunate.
They have a long way to go before they arrive at America's freedom. When I leave work at 8, at least half my office is still here chugging right along. There's nothing like working in Japan for a while to make you appreciate American Corporate Culture. I'm more than looking forward to getting back home.
Do not forget that Japan is not USA. Ive never been there actually, but after reading some books Japan shows to me as a completly different country. Their whole lives passes under the motto: group is more important than You. It's completly normal for them, and thats the way they live!
BTw, does anybody know that life of typical (80..90% of female population) woman looks like this:
a. childhood
b. basic school
c. high school
d. about 2..4 year of some stupid job (for which You don't need almost any education)
e. marriage
f. end of work!
g. being housewife to the end of life!
while under g) relation between Her and Him, compared to USA/Europa ones are almost weird (at least for me).
What I'm saying is that Japan _is_ different so slashdot is for sure not the place to discuss this topic. get go to library and buy some books about Japan, or, better, go there for year or two.
But I've almost always jumped from job to job because I was bored, not for the money.
How we know is more important than what we know.
"Apple had to take out all the Easter eggs in all their mac apps."
I'm curious. What Apple applications are you talking about? The OS?
Adobe, on the other hand, has easter egg upon easter egg crediting just about everyone and their pets.
Consigned to flames of woe.
There is a simple solution to this problem. Don't work for a company that has these policies! Then hope that the company you choose not to work for doesn't become a monopoly like Clearchannel or Microsoft.
You seem to be implying that it's OK for ethics to be compromised in favor of higher profits.
Does that extend to murder, extortion, kidnapping, slave labor, or unfair competition?
You yourself said that "It may be unethical". I was merely pointing out that the fact that companies are in it for the profit does not trump the possibility that it is unethical.
Apple had to take out all the Easter eggs in all their mac apps.
The official reason is that the credits list is not inclusive of all engineers of the project.
The REAL reason is that all the microsoft headhunters would pretty much try to hire all the programmers on the credits list.
Sure, many Mac users were not happy, but it keeps good Apple employees, and Apple didn't slide downhill since. IS it wrong? The "slavery" comparison is a bit strong, but I work in the US, so maybe it's different.
Couple this with the long hours, the draconian employment contracts, and the insane deadlines, and I begin to wonder if this guy has a serious point.
First off let's get real about the situation, no one is forced to work anywhere, well at least not in the United States. If a company you're working for places you in situations like these, then you are the idiot for staying there at any case. There are jobs out there and anyone who says there aren't is probably under qualified to move along unto another company that is going to treat them better.
As for Draconian contracts, again taking a look back to just two years ago, and even with some companies up to date, one has to stop and give themselves a reality check, scenario: You drive a truck all day breaking your back lifting heavy boxes for 14 hours, salary about 40,000.00. You run around all day trying to catch criminals, average salary for a cop 35,000.00.
Take a look at a typical programmer, Unix admin, network engineer; 50,000 - 150,000.00 without having to break your back, duck bullets, etc. Atop that most companies give you healthy benefits, cool offices, gizmos galore.
Having my fair share of being `around' sometimes I stop and wonder how I even get paid my salary when things have become so easy for me. One thing I always am is humble about the situation since I see how much worse things could be. So to this guy and his write up, I think he took a specific situation overboard without looking at the entire picture.
Want Root?
First, it should be noted that a contributing factor to Japan's economic woes is a severe labor shortage, so I'm not surprised KOEI is so paranoid about other companies looking to steal its employees.
In the U.S., however, a lot of us are lucky just to have jobs, at least in the dot-com sector. Not that you should sign your life away just so you can keep up the payments on the Audi and hold on to those stock options (snicker), but let's dispense with the grand delusion that tech workers are in any position to call the shots to their employers.
You agreed to certain terms of employment by accepting a job offer. If your contract prevents you from creating Quake mods during new moons on even-numbered months, then that's what you deal with. My last contract specified that any technology I created that was related to the company's "core business operations" belonged to them, without credit or further compensation, even if I created it on my own time. Sound unfair? Probably. But I agreed to it.
Fortunately, that start-up is dead and almost forgotten, and I ended up at a much better gig. But now tech companies are being asked to do more with fewer resources (i.e., personnel), and cushy HR buzzwords like "self-direction" and "employee enrichment" have been tossed right out the window with company stock prices. Some of us are in survival mode, bucko, and don't really give a damn if we work in Sunnyvale or Siberia, so long as the check doesn't bounce on Friday.
Got a job? Good. Now get back to work.
There are other reasons a company might do this, apart from treating their own employees badly. The game industry is highly competitive, and individual employees hold a lot, a great lot, of sensitive information in their noggins.
Imagine your company is about to release The Next Big Thing in games, and you're in fierce competition with other companies in your field. It's not unimaginable for a competitor to lure away a couple of your key developers by offering outrageous salaries. This would seriously set back your development efforts, possibly putting you behind your competitor. Your competitor, then, can finish their own product and beat you to market. The raided developers can just be let go as soon as the competing product is ready (they might not even have done anything meaningful at their new company). After all, the competitor didn't hire them to gain their skill and expertise, but to deprive you of it. Hansje.
"I don't mind competition- I just don't want anyone else stealing my customers."
-- marketeer explaining to me why we should sole source to them (above market prices) for a product which they originated but others had copied.
Corporate operatives don't give s**t about you, me or anyone else except the Board of Directors and their immediate hierarchy. Remember that and try to survive. If you find yourself becoming a corporate operative you have not survived- you have succumbed.
Something might have been lost in the translation here.
The employees are free to go and find better pay / different work. Although the head-hunting climate there might be rather ruthless.
I guess the company doesn't want their people being excessively spammed or harassed by 'talent scouts'
Koei (www.koei.co.jp/bgate/english/index.htm) used to make some awesome series for SNES.. like RoTK (www.3kingdoms.net), PTO, etc. I guess for U.S. market they didn't find too many customers.. and it seemed slightly harder to get their games here. Over time the support for classic series (for snes and other consoles, as well as pc) for ENGLISH speaking audiences.. almost disapeared. Their page (www.koeigames.com) is updated once a year it seems.. I've emailed them several times.. about why they won't release more titles for the English-speaking market.. first (and only) email I got a reply to.. was assuring me that the company wasn't in financial trouble (I offered to keep their site up to date (for free ofcourse).. as they don't seem to have enough people around for that ?)
Last KOEI game I bought was RoTKVI for PS, even thought I don't own one (nephew does).. just to support their efforts in my market.
Hrm...
Understanding their reasoning does not make it right for them to do this.
So, what's your point? If it's their problem, wouldn't you expect them to do something about it?
They are not stopping anybody from leaving, they're just not actively advertising who works for them. There's a big difference there.
----------
Never underestimate the bandwidth of a 747 filled with CD-ROMs.
As somebody said in another post, no matter how good you're treating your employees, someone can always give them a better offer, if they really want them. A lot of employees don't really understand that, and that's why they don't actively search for another job when they are happy at the current one. But when a headhunter grabs hold of their phone number, they immediately start to doubt whether they are really happy or not.
That's why there aren't many tech companies that don't try to keep the list of their employees secret.
Sure, blacking out their faces might be a little extreme, but you can understand their reasoning. They might be treating them very well, but they are afraid someone will offer them double the salary just to get them out of there, and they can't afford to double everyone's salary to keep them.
----------
Never underestimate the bandwidth of a 747 filled with CD-ROMs.
I think this is a very short-sighted sort of view, and seeing this pissing contest is rather annoying to me.
While it's true that developers play a very important role in a business, so also do systems administrators. In the environments I've worked in, the application itself is nothing without a working server on which to host it. My current place of employment, as well as my last, relied heavily on web applications and interfaces for their customers. If those servers go down, those applications that the developers worked so hard on, are worth naught.
It takes all kinds to run an enterprise. While I couldn't write a C program to save my life, most of our application developers also couldn't troubleshoot an ecache parity error on a Sun Enterprise 10000 domain either.
It's best described, I think, as a "symbiotic relationship". The fact that you seem to be rather hell-bent on the idea that developers are *more* important than the sysadmins is rankling. We all have important, but very different, jobs to do, none of which requires more skill than the others.
"During your times of trial and suffering, when you see only one set of footprints, it was then that I was riding the pogostick."
A good traveller has no fixed plans and is not intent on arriving.
SCREW any notion of professional pride!!!
/. (But, that is another argument altogether!)
If your company is willing to throw away $41,500.00 and then have the balls to come back and tell you can not get a raise in these hard economic times there is a little more on the line here than your professional pride.
I am the Director of Information Systems for a Taiwanese based corporation that has a large presence in North America. So, I will tell you what; the VPs above me do not screw with me in regards to this stuff any longer. If I take the time to draw up an operational and cost summary and my expert opinion is not question... but ignored?! I will and have been on the next plane between the US and Taiwan. This stuff is serious bullshit; these people hired you for a reason. You are here to make the business systems decisions that they are not informed enough of to make for themselves. One uninformed choice can cost the company serious money and possibly set a precedent for future blinded decisions, which can induce unbelievable future monetary waste. This activity is unacceptable behavior out of anyone in this field whether you are an ADMIN, MGR, DIR, or VP.
I have been yelled at many a times by our Taiwanese VPs with regards to insubordinate behavior sometimes in Chinese of which I do not understand a word. But as I told them "I am an IT analyst first and a corporate director second and stupidity or closed minds are not something you can have if you are going to be in this business." There is no need to waste good corporate money when there are very stable cost effective solutions that do not always have the name Microsoft attached to them. At the same time, I also wouldn't pigeon hole MS as evil either. If you look at the big picture MS has done allot of overall good in the industry regardless of the sometimes popular opinion here on
"Help me Obi-/.-Kenobi,your my only hope!" -$
If I were your sys admin and you took root on one of my UNIX boxes and I did not authorize it. I would have you fired for violating the corporate network and systems security policy. I have had many programmers fired for doing such. You people have to learn that you only get access to what you need to do your job not whatever you want. A sys admins job is to protect the data on the boxes he serves from all those not authorized to view its contents, including developers. And if they do not fire you after I complain I would simply jerk your personal network access and site the network and systems security policy as the cause. They will either fire you, you will appologize and promise never to do it again, or you will be left to defend your actions for being a self indulgent asshole. But you will never againi get access to the servers on my network because companies really frown on the violation of there security policies.
"Help me Obi-/.-Kenobi,your my only hope!" -$
MCSE does not count.
That sysadmining with training wheels!
"Help me Obi-/.-Kenobi,your my only hope!" -$
If the company wants to blank-out the faces, what the hell is wrong with that? How's that "keeping them back"? Employees are free to find other work through whatever means they can. Is it the employer's job to advertise their employees to others? Absolutely not!
The employer's duty is to pay the employee the negotiated salary, stock options and benefits for services rendered. It was a consentual transaction.
Comparing this to slavery only insults those who have been and still are subject to slavery in its true form, and illustrates just how ignorant you are.
In case you need a refresher on what slavery is: slaves are those who are forced to work and produce without consent. They are forced. They have no choice. Attempts to escape captivity results in force, often deadly.
My car gets 40 rods to the hogshead, and that's the way I likes it!
I'm half-Japanese and spent two years there during the 90s. As well I travelled there to visit relatives. I speak the language well enough.
The funny thing is, people over there thought I had somehow this magical insight into the Japanese psyche. It was only experience.
The conditions you describe are slowly in the process of changing, however. My cousin and his wife came over a couple of years ago to tell of the economic crunch forcing many out of work. Unfortunately the prospect of change is scaring many Japanese when they should be embracing it.
I am hopeful, though.
Just my two cents' worth.
========================================
Death will come, and will have your eyes
-- Pavese
I don't really consider removing the faces discouraging the EMPLOYEE's from finding out about employment opportunitites, its just keeping other companies from ACTIVELY recruiting them. I am working on the website for my company at the moment, and one of the things I wanted to do to add some extra perosonality to the company was put up BIO's of some of the more interesting employees--however upper management shut it down saying that the only thing the BIO's would be used for is headhunters that wanted to take their employee's away. Interesting perspective, ya?
mov ax, 13h
int 10h
mov ax, 13h
int 10h
Then you can use the excuse of Commercially Sensitive Information
I'm trying to teach myself to set people on fire with my mind... Is it hot in here?
I do not agree. First, competition in -especially- the gaming-industy is very tough; so much so that maybe prospective new employers are not exactly interested in the employee themselves, but in what he/she knows about their former employer and its products.
Secondly, I think that head-hunting is a serious problem for some employers. And in this case, it isn't like the company is forbidding its staff to look elsewhere, it's shielding the staff from all too enthusiastic competition.
Don't you agree that it's rather the prerogative of the employee to start "looking around", instead of having competitors luring people away, people that just might be quite happy where they are ?
I do not deploy Linux. Ever.
...'nough said.
Guyote was here.....
The reason the companies don't hire people who left their previous job, is that they don't like the thought that they will leave them as well. So, if you have reason to leave your previous job: they went out of business, extra study, settling down in a more permanent location, a reason that they see as not deserting your previous company, they will find that acceptable and possibly hire you.
There is a lot more to it than just that, but it can't be summed up easily in a single /. comment.
The next job my girlfriend got the same story, very close but rejected again. Following that, she didn't tell them about the previous job. She got the next job she applied for.
Bringing this back on topic, the reason these people are worried their employees might leave them is because game programmers are rare. This is where the system breaks down. The company wants them there, but can't see that they need to give them more incentive. A lifetime job should be good enough.
Better to stay silent, and let people think you're an idiot than to open your mouth and remove all doubt
Women are still second rate. Age means everything. Forigners are still outsiders.
True, they have brought technology into their culture and worked with it well (thanks to the japanese culture fitting in with quality manufacturing - Demming, Juran, et al. made sure of this in the 60-80's IIRC). So yes, I guess Japan has changed. But, only slowly evolved into something compatible with it's old lifestyle.
Without going into too much detail about Japan's social problems, I think Japan's history is catching up. As you say, the fact that their society functions at all is impressive. But it's hard to say if Japan can keep up with the change without changing attitude it's been keeping
Better to stay silent, and let people think you're an idiot than to open your mouth and remove all doubt
Have you seen the way the average male just expects the female to get beer, or cook food for him?
Have you tried to get Japanese citizenship? (the only people who get citizenship are famous sports players - mostly sumo) Have you seen the way that people just stare at you, just because you have blond hair? Or talk about you, right to your face, because you're a forginer, you can't possibly understand Japanene?
And have you seen the realationship between students or even workers, the senpai/kouhai (junior/senior) relationship that happens everywhere?
These issues have not disappeared, or somehow got magically better. The government is slowly adapting to change. The people, even slower. Japan has been around for just as long, or longer than most countries. It has had time to change.
Talk to any Japanese person about change, and you will begin to understand. Most people think "if it ain't broke, don't fix it", and don't realise that their system *is* broken. I'm not just talking about big issues like these, I get it every day, from a lot of people.
No, Japan is not changing. I come from a country with only 200 years history, and we changed a lot in those 200 years. True, we had a big head start, but compared to Japan the change happens a lot faster.
Better to stay silent, and let people think you're an idiot than to open your mouth and remove all doubt
There is still a very strong opinion in Japan that you should spend your whole life in a single company. Sure, that way of thinking slowly changing, but it is still a cultural part of Japan. Change, esp. in Japan, happens slowly. Japanese compaines, which are well known for their high quality (and TQM, etc), value their employees as assets to the company. So, it is in the company's best interest not to broadcast their identities, especially in the current Japanese economic climate. The company is not holding the employess back. They have every right to go and ask different compainies for an offer. Basically, the Japanese managers value lifetime employment. Japanese employees are beginning to value it less.
True story: My (Japanese) girlfriend decided to quit her first job after getting serious sexual harrassment (also very Japanese). When she applied for her next job and had been tentatively confirmed, management changed their minds very quickly in the interview when she told them she left her last job, and they didn't care that it was sexual harrasment.
I think a story like this is almost insulting to the Japanese culture. Before you critisize, try to figure out why. The rest of the world isn't like the US. There is something outside the little box you live in.
Better to stay silent, and let people think you're an idiot than to open your mouth and remove all doubt
At work, they never mention my name, or anyone else's, with the product. Generally, the only time I get any feedback is when bugs come in, and they're often assigned in a fairly critical manner. But they pay me a bunch of money.
At home, I work on a project with about six others around the world. We usually get at least one fan email a week. And when people report the inevitable bugs, they're always extremely polite. We've also been interviewed by an online gaming site. But, alas, the pay, $0, could be better.
I saw a great bumper sticker once: "Labor unions: The people who brought you the weekend."
The more I see of kneejerk responses like this:
...the more convinced I am that working conditions are going to have to get back to turn-of-the-century sweatshop conditions before a majority of workers are willing to say, "Gee, wait a minute. This sucks. Remember those days off our parents used to have?"
No. I've yet to see a union that's done anything constructive. All they do is blackmail companies to try and extract unreasonable pay and working conditions.
-- Support Ometz le-Serev.
Its a valid point, companies like hiring out of other companies pre-trained stock... saves them the effort of training. Which really pisses me off.
/. rant
I just got out of school and I have seen next to zero companies willing to take on anyone with less than 2 years experience in the industry (game industry for me). Which puts me further in a jam; how does one get experience and learn more about the job if no one hires them? Hell at this point I'd almost work for peanuts. Its times like these that really make me regret leaving programing to persue game art.
A similar thing happened in the Animation industry back in the 60's and 70s.... all the studios put off hiring new talent (disney, WB, etc.) and as a result when all the old experienced animators retired in the 80s there was no one to take their place. Hence we ended up with shitty animation in the 80s, (aka the Black Cauldron). History does repeat it self. I am sure almost every IT field out there will soon start running into this problem.
Its a lot easier for investors to trust money to someone who has been in buisness than a new guy despite his creds.
end
home
"If I were bound by all laws everywhere I'm sure I would have committed a capital crime somewhere."
-Legion
Hmm, see also this column in the Washington Post.
-J
Karma: T-rexcellent.
Look at it a different way, if they are bound by non-compete clauses then why do they need to be blacked out. The only reason I can come up with is to make them less marketable so they can be kept for less.
t
In many places you can prevent people from working for your competitors though.
t
Even if they get ripped in the press its not a bad deal. There is no such thing as bad press.
t
I think part of the problem is I'm a game programmer and I see games (right or wrong) as part of the entertainment industry. In this light, blocking out the team is like blocking out the actors, directors, etc from some movie production interview or not showing the band in a music interview. If that happened they'd all walk. As it's entertainment, many game creators, want exposure, press, etc. It's one of the reasons making games is a more exciting type of programming than other types for some people.
So, not getting credit for your work (and I'm not just talking about credit at the end of the game) is a huge issue for alot of people.
I was at a company where the lead artist on a game had been working his ass off for a year making all the game art. 2 months before shipping another artist made the opening movie. When the press came, marketing showed off the movie and only interviewed the movie artist. The other artist quit. From his point of view his game, the game he'd sweat for, was getting credited to a different artist.
There are plenty of other examples. So, when I saw KOEI masking the team's faces part of my reaction was taking that idea into account.
Also, I've worked at a large Japanese video game company and I can tell you they look at the team members as only slighty higher than copy machine operator. Ie, easily replaceable (or if they don't then they are hoping the employees don't realize it) The average artist salary is less than 60% the U.S. counter part as are the programmer salaries. I don't know if that's because there is too much talent here or if it's because people don't leave because of the previous culture of working at the same place for life. My department all worked 10am to 11:30pm nearly year round. It was clear that several of them had been there 6 to 10 year under those conditions basically giving their lives to the company. Of course it's their own fault. They could leave anytime if they wanted. My impression is they are just not aware about how much they are really giving up and when the company folds, or lets them go, or they just raise their heads an notice their life passing by they will see they gave it all up for nothing.
So, upon seeing the KOEI interview I felt like KOEI was trying to continue the deception, intentional or not, that keeps all these people under these kinds of conditions.
The last company I worked at, an American company, did a very good job of crediting people for their individual contributions whenever the press came by. Note, I only said American company because the previous paragraph was about Japan. I'm not trying to suggest that there's anything special about an American company but more something special about that particular company.
I don't think employers should actively try to get in the way of an employee looking for a better job. However, I do understand the employers point of view that they are a resource that they have invested time and money in to and don't want that taken away. In the end I think it that employers should look at it as what's best for the individual, they shouldn't encourage employees to find some place else, obviously, but they have no right to get in the way.
:).
When I was first hired at my company, within a month some random person at another company called me trying to hire me. I have no idea how they got my extension (since I hadn't given it out to anyone, and no one had been at this extension before I got there), but after realizing what they wanted I claimed that they must have the wrong person and I forwarded them to my boss who chewed them out and I'm sure I heard him yelling into the phone from down the hall. Hehehe, I've actually been considering using this as an excuse to ask for a raise: 'See how in demand I am? What are you going to do to keep me here?'. However, I like where I'm at, so I don't really want to step on any toes right now.
However, if anyones willing to pay more than 90k for an excellent programmer in Boulder, CO, I might be willing to entertain some offers
Things you think are in the Constitution, but are not.
You're right. Now that you mention it, it does make sense for something like this to come from Japan. I admit I've never spent time there, but Japan was used frequently as an example in my International Business class about a group-minded/oriented culture where people act for the good of a group or collective instead of trying to help their own arses.
I actually just posted a statement in agreement to the poster of the story, but now that you mention the cultural context it makes sense. And I know that my views are probably skewed by my American culture. I still don't think it's 'right', but that should be quailified as being 'right' from my perspective as an individualistic American.
Thank you for pointing this out, if I had some mod points, I'd give you at least one or two for being insightful.
Things you think are in the Constitution, but are not.
Yeah, and that never happens in the US, does it?
I believe its called karo-jisatsu
"Suicide through overwork"? Interesting idea, but wrong.
The illegal we do immediately. The unconstitutional takes a little longer.
--Henry Kissinger
Actually, it's standard policy for successful game programmers in Japan. The japanese market for games is huge and hot programmers are an incredibly sought-after resource. In fact, the programmers most likely perfer it that way; otherwise they'd constantly be harassed by headhunters.
The illegal we do immediately. The unconstitutional takes a little longer.
--Henry Kissinger
Your top employees are valued assets. Smart companies protect their assets. They don't go around releasing their product secrets to make things easy from the competition and neither do they make it easy for the competition to draw away their top performers. As has been said many times, there is nothing holding the employees themselves back. Expecting the company to favour individual careers by helping staff get recruited away over the company's own needs is foolish. Career advancement is personal work. If you want fame and fortune, slave away at your own startup for peanuts, or become an actor (and still slave away for peanuts).
At some point, you do have to decide if continuing to do the best you can is worth it, if the outfit you are working for is completely out to lunch. But the alternative is to leave, keeping you integrity intact. The solution is not to slack-off, poison the well, and burn your bridges before you leave, or ar asked to leave.
Granted, however, women have the vote, and I believe I just read that the new PM is appointing some women to important governmental positions. Foreigners may be outsiders, but they are no longer forbidden entry, or even citizenship. I don't know enough to speak to the age issue.
This may not seem like much to you, but again, remeber my point: Western civilization had over half a millenium to phase these changes in. The Japanese are now being told that they have to adapt to these changes in a mere generation or two. World War 2 was no more uncivilized of them than Napoleon was for the French (and as for the tortures inflicted upon those they conquered, don't forget Robuspierre (er, sp? Hate French) and the Committes of Public Saftey that immediately preceeded). The status of women is no worse now in Japan than it was in America 75 years ago.
The only reason their changes seem so long in coming is that they started out behind by a good 600 years. The fact that we can compare them today favorably to ourselves 75 years ago is fairly impressive.
The only "intuitive" interface is the nipple. After that, it's all learned.
"The question of whether a computer can think is no more interesting than that of whether a submarine can swim" -EWD
Whoa there. You're talking about a country that, in the last 150 years, has done what it took Europe some 600-1000 years. Our culture was able to evolve along with the technology, but theirs was not. I would say, the fact that their society functions at all is fairly impressive. Look at China, Vietnam, Korea (North or South), or anywhere else in Asia, and pick out a country that has done a better job of adapting to modern times.
I'd say, change happens slowly, but less so in Japan than elsewhere...
The only "intuitive" interface is the nipple. After that, it's all learned.
"The question of whether a computer can think is no more interesting than that of whether a submarine can swim" -EWD
"It's just a job. I do it to make myself and others unhappy."
It's an old cliche, but it's as true as anything else: money isn't everything. If you can find a job that will support you and doesn't suck your soul and mind, then you'll probably take it. Why not greatly improve your chances of coming across such a job, and actually look for one?
[|]
How things have changed. Back when I developed for the Mac, a letter came in from Apple stating that developer's names shouldn't appear on third-party products. Probably something Steve Jobs dreamed up.
A new policy with many brick and mortar companies which started online departments is to have very strict no-compete clauses (you can't work in the same field for atleast a year) and also to claim anything created while you're at the company (code or otherwise) belongs to the company.
If you don't want to get stuck with something like this, make sure you ask the right questions before you're hired, and get a look at the contract well before you decide to consider the position. Usually these things can be cleared up, but once you've signed on the dotted line you're pretty much locked in.
_f
Haven't you ever wondered why pretty much every near-future cyberpunk type setting has some concept of 'corporate extractions?'
Vintage computer games and RPG books available. Email me if you're interested.
I could be wrong, but isn't it 'karoshi?' "Work death" would be the translation, I think.
Vintage computer games and RPG books available. Email me if you're interested.
One: Yes entire game teams have been headhunted. Two: It a fricking joke. Photos of the game staff in the credits have been around since Altered Beast (Sega 1990?), where they all had their eyes masked out.
III.IIVIVIXIIVIVIIIVVIIIIXVIIIXIIIIIIIIVIIIIVVIII
The exact same thing happend to me, but at a smaller company. It was at a Large Local/Small National ISP and I was working in the Network Operations Center. By the time I left, one person in the life of the company had worked in the position longer that I had. I left because I got sick of seeing people I trained promoted above me. I belive companies do this to try to keep people that are very good at the job where they are. All it does is lead to burn-out in high stress positions like call centers and NOC's.
As an example...
;) For some reason, the whole thing reminds me of Spacely's Sprockets vs. Cogwell's Cogs, but anyways... :)
;)
;)
I work at your typical Global Megacorporation. According to our managers, we're "The Best Place to Work". That's why our company's employees are leaving in droves. I guess they keep it "The Best Place to Work" using their topheavy stack of managers, and regular benefit cuts.
Its gotten to the point where one corporation has taken it apon themselves to do most of their recruiting not from colleges but from the company I work for. On the way to several of the buildings, you'll pass their large billboards advertizing ungodly starting bonuses
Naturally, the company I work for isn't thrilled about losing their techie base. So, naturally, they gave us large raises and actually made our benefits nice... oh, wait, no they didn't. Instead, they sent out an email, saying something to the effect of:
" is in town. They're trying to recruit our employees. Don't let them! They're having a career fair soon. Don't go! Don't even go near on . Also, they're calling people. If you see a call from their recruitment line, , don't even pick up the phone."
How thoughtful of them to assist us, if we decided to leave! I mean, their career fair's address, their job line... they all but forwarded our resumes for us
Ah, but, if I were to leave, I'd miss out on all of the PHB (Pointy Haired Boss) amusements that go on. Like the copying machines...
Like most Global Megacorps, this one manages by slogan. The current slogan is to be "Lean". So, one high level manager saw fit to have the copying machines removed from all over the buildings, to be more "Lean" - save on maintinence costs or something. This runs in cycles. Another manager always comes along, half a year later, and puts the copying machines back, as part of an "efficiency" issue. Both managers get promoted.
Of course, it gets worse. When they took our machines last time, they posted a sign telling us where the nearest copying machine is. How nice! Well, our annoyance quickly turned into amusement as soon as we looked at the sign, and saw the arrow heading across the hall and into the security office. This is the most secure location in the building. It is where they conduct their high-level clearance government projects. To get through the blast-proof door, you have to enter a personalized multi-digit combination on the keypad, wherein it buzzes, and opens, and keeps buzzing until it is closed. It is constantly observed, regulated by the NSA. Noone takes any papers in with them, and likewise, none go out, without special permission. Naturally, I'm sure they'd just love it if we stood there, banging on the door, yelling "Can I come in? I need to make a copy!"
- Rei
You know when it's okay to shout fire in a crowded theatre? When it's on fire.
The Sysadmins all go home by 6 pm (we are generally nice to our sysadmins, and rarely interrupt them off hours).
I've pulled all-nighters only to have to finish the debugging of the program in the car on the way to the customer. But, I work for a government contractor, and I am the team lead. My deadlines are carved in stone, and if my team can't get the system working by the deadline, then it is my fault, because I was the one who negotiated the timeline (in theory). As a result, I am the one who has to pull the extra long overtime when things go wrong. I often request help from my team members, but I NEVER mandate OT. And believe me, things always go wrong. I generally try to pad my estimates to compensate, but that padding often gets yanked from the contracts, hence my "in theory" bit. I don't have my degree in Computer Science, and I don't make six figures. I also have over five years of experience in software development and live in Santa Barbara, which is not well known for being cheap to live in. But, I don't have much grounds to complain on (especially about the cost of living--it's worth it). I chose my job and negotiated my position. I work with people who are absolutely wonderful to work for--including our sysadmin staff, one of whom gave up his new years eve celebration to man the office for any possible Y2K problems.
I have root access to my machine. I can get root access to the servers. Why? Precisely so I don't have to call the sysadmin when the server goes down and it is my fault (or the CA power company's fault). That's why they make regular backups, because sometimes I can screw up.
There are only 25 employees at my company, and EVERYONE works together. Our marketing director knows how to use grep (that one surprised me). Our president wrote the code that started the company. Our old testing department (of 1) now works as a junior programmer.
I've never worked for a huge company. I've seen what it was like visiting friends at their workplaces. I don't know if I look good enough on paper to get a six figure job working at such a company. After reading some of the rants here, I can be sure that I don't need to try. Now excuse me, I have work to do...
Network Security: It always comes down to a big guy with a gun.
This is JAPAN. The culture CANNOT GET MUCH DIFFERENT than the United States.
Corporate Culture in Japan is something totally different than going to the bar after work with a few coworkers, and is much more akin to citizenship in a very patriotic country. Health Club, medical, dental, living spaces, restaurants, movie theaters, all of this can and in some cases usually is provided by the company for their employees. Read up on the RPG Shadowrun to get an example of Japanese Corporate Culture taken to an extreme, then realize it isn't too extreme.
Furthermore, the corporate world of Japan is very much their replacement for the warriors of old. Employment with a corporation borders on feudal vassalship, and this is not only accepted, but considered normal by many. Sitting over here stateside, where an employer wouldn't dare try a stunt like that, and saying that it should be illegal in a society that doesn't match ours is a little bit ridiculous.
Your Mileage May Vary, but that's the reason *I* see for these particular actions, and I don't see what the big deal is.
You thought that this sig was what you think that I thought you wanted me to think. I think.
Marketing makes unreasonable requests, tries to sneak in late requirements, gives beta customers assurances that any little thing they want they will be in the next drop, never worry about fucking the engineering or operational groups, and whine about teamwork and other groups failing to produce.
Sales lies. To the customers, to Marketing, to Sales, to Engineering, to anyone. It's their job to lie. I refuse to believe that any sales department that has not seen wholesale execution of its staff has suffered unfairly. Gawd I hate Sales.
As for your claim that the engineers who fail to produce are promoted - you are correct. They become engineering management.
--
--
You nah, me nah. Screw you guys, I'm going home.
Don't discount the political maneuvering of the techies =) We're can be a little more draconian than most managers give us credit for. At least in my experience... I've seen (been in) more than one mini-revolt/powerplay that has significantly changed management structure. Managers who piss us off don't tend to last that long.
perl -e 'print $i=pack(c5, (41*2), sqrt(7056), (unpack(c,H)-2), oct(115), 10)'
Keeping valuable employees is necessary. A company must try to keep their employees, or they will fail. The crucial difference lies in how they do this. My previous employer was smallish on a global scale, but was a huge and successful local ISP. They didn't understand much about how to keep valuable employees, payed extremely poorly, tended to ask for too much of the staff in terms of volunteer time, didn't offer training or benefits packages, and generally treated us all like slaves. Myself and two other teammates in the corporate tech services group brought these concerns to our manager, were told they wouldn't do anything about it, so I left. They since got bought by PSINet and now face an uncertain future. A few good people remain there, but mostly due to inertia (the company did improve their compensation a little after a mini-wave of people left, including myself)... many more good people have left because of the company's lack of respect or reward programs. I resigned when I accepted an offer from a major competitor. When chatting with the GM of the company I was leaving, she tried to get me to stay using a little bit of FUD. Was that dirty tactics or honest misinformation about the company I was going to?
Either way, they held their employees back. The only thing that could have made me stay was loyalty and enjoyment of the workplace. Companies like the Japanese developer (don't forget that we are also talking about a very different culture with we discuss Japan) wouldn't be well tolerated by most North American workers, and lack of mere acknowledgement for your work is likely to drive employees away. We all need pats on the back, money, perks, etc... otherwise we get PUSHED away.
perl -e 'print $i=pack(c5, (41*2), sqrt(7056), (unpack(c,H)-2), oct(115), 10)'
A 'night news program'?
Well, well, let's see what's the subject tonight... (switching on TV@tokyo.jp):
"AV(*) Male Actor Shiratama Dango(**) makes his debut on the US Pr0n Scene"
So much for a news program, what do you think?
(*) Adult Video
(**) I am not too good at reading Japanese names so this part of transcription might be wrong - but the rest is accurate
Programmers are the carpenters of our time.
Wow, you're going to have to show me how I can use code as shelter next time it rains. That's gotta be a neat trick.
Last time I checked, the carpenters of our time were still carpenters. But programmers don't need to feel left out...most carpenters have been doing exceedingly shoddy work for the past few years, too. I look around at the quality of construction in a lot of the new developments going up lately, and I figure they'll barely last longer than it takes for software to go obsolete.
An organization the size of Apple or Microsoft might want to ban credits because although Apple is an organizational model of small teams, it's got so many of them that contribute in some way, that it would be impractical to figure out who's in or out. So although it seems at first somewhat hive-like to sign the inside of a Mac with only "love, Apple", it is unfortunately a very practical and "necessary evil".
Some speculated that it had to do with outside recruiting, and that may be a coincidence with Apple's extremely private and occasionally secretive internal culture.
But that is way different than blacking out the faces of known contributors in a photo! :)
===
AS a software engineer, I see your point and agree with it, but I disagree with some of what you posted.
Sysadmins worth there salt are creative. You have to be to maintain any self respecting security.
All the good sysadmins I know write many tools and automation code/scripts.
I see a day where sysadmins make more then programmers. Mostly because a programmer glut is on the way. How many people graduate from college in hopes of becoming a programmer? 30 times the number that want to be sysadmins?
By the way, even though the Police and fire persons are getting paid that does not mean the aren't hero's. Ever watch a police officer go into a fire fight, cover a person with there body and retrieve that person to safety? I have, and you can not tell me that was not herioc.
What about the fire persons that have gone into a deadly situation, just to rescue someone? They could easily claim it was too dangerous and get NO reprocutions from it.
These people probably make less then half what you do, but a gaurentee you they're more valuable to society then any single programmer.
btw the janitor/master key reference was pretty funny.
The Kruger Dunning explains most post on
The working conditions for technical workers are far better than what you will find in America
Japan is where people have actually worked them selfs to death.
I believe its called "karo-jisatsu"
The Kruger Dunning explains most post on
You violated one of the key rules of getting promoted:
Never be so good you're irreplacable.
I've been there, fortunatly I was able to shmoze with peole in the department I wanted to be in, extend my help with a couple of small projects, claimed training time for my new respocibilities.
I was also smart enough to recognize a 'small' project that I knew would balloon(access projects always do). Then as its became 'critical' to that deptarment I was the only one with the knowledge to take care of it. all at the expense of the manager that wouldn't let me move on.
Some companies actually to fullfill there growth opportunity statement.
The Kruger Dunning explains most post on
Non-Disclosure agreements only go so far. I have swapped between companies that do similar things and while I have not taken a CD of source code with me I can still remember the approaches I took to solve similar problems. This means that I can be more efficent (and there for worth more) then the average programmer. Someone has already paid me to find solutions to these problems and now I am just reapplying these solutions.
This is virtually impossible to prevent in a contract.
"Do you think we could wipe out world hunger forever if scientists figured out how to make AOL's Free CD's edible?"-
No matter what you pay your programmers or how well you treat them someone will always have a better offer for them. Especially if they have an insight into your new gaming engine. Hiring people like this in not just hiring a developer it is also getting alot of R&D that the other company has paid for.
If I was manager at a high profile game company I would go out of the way not to broadcast the identity of my programmers.
"Do you think we could wipe out world hunger forever if scientists figured out how to make AOL's Free CD's edible?"-
What, me worry?
40 hours week. (Realy!!!)
I leave at six and nobody looks funny at me - then again there aren't that many people left in the building at six (i come in late and leave late).
I don't get the same salary as i would in the US (maybe 2/3). On they other hand, my hourly salary end up pretty much the same as if i was in the US working 12h/day.
<DISCLAIMER>I am not a Dutch citizen, and to be one i would have to stick around for 4 more years</DISCLAIMER>
True way to happiness
I've been in the exact same shoes for four years now. There is such a thing as doing your job too well. If you do your job better then everyone else, why would they want to let you leave that job? My job is 80% IT, but I'm stuck with a title that reflects 20% of my actual job. When I expressed interest, they said you need at least a couple years working in IT. I've been here over four years, but since I didn't have the #)*$$ title, it didn't matter. I've sinced learned that hard work doesn't pay off at said company and am enjoying my time much more. =)
they had masked out all faces
Maybe they're Ninjas. Did you ever think of that?
Duh. How about some cultural sensitivity?
PDHoss
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Writers get in shape by pumping irony.
but how can you possibly say that what you posted isn't 'flamebait'
"and dear god does this website suck now." -- CmdrTaco
Just a random thought... but could this be some sort of hype possibly...? Their way of subtlely "saying this game will kick the ass of all other games!" If you look at it in that light, and if the programmers are actually credited somehow when the game ships, then you could really think of it as a stroke of brilliance.
If this is truly the case (pure speculation of course)then the programmers probably even agreed to it willingly, enjoying the joke.
/me notes marketing strategies for his future gaming company
Time for some tasty Shiner Bock!
For the simple fact that in this case it is tax payers money that is being wasted. Otherwise, do what they say until you can find something else. Unless you can manage to make them listen to you, which'll probably involve piecharts, laser pointers and power point presentations. ugh.
plop
This reminds me of some of the novels by William Gibson where you have to physically extract high level employees from other companies with force. Pretty freaky-deaky stuff.
plop
Have the employers gone any further than that? (e.g. deleting emails between competitors) Maybe there is a really tight market for programmers in that field. Think before you type.
Maybe their employees were extremely ugly or hideously deformed, and they were just trying to spare us the horrror.
More likely, thought, that the management is comprised of a bunch of assholes....
Help save the critically endangered Blue Iguana
How about never sending employees off on any conferences or any sort of professional course, despite repeated requests ? that happens too.. (Oh, we don't have the cash.. but btw, all managers travel Business class)
I agree. Always they complain about the lack of money for projects ("do you think you can work on this project in your free time? that budget is almost used up."). But all the sales guys and managers have their ego's tied up in how much they are on the road. If Joe spends more time on the road than John then, obviously, his dick is longer. So they spend a week at a time at the Hilton near some airport after buying the airline ticket one day in advance (hell, even if you're flying coach, that one day in advance ticket is over a thousand bucks) and don't forget that they get to keep the airline miles. They spend more on rental car, plane ticket, hotel, and per diem in a week then I make in a month (maybe two months). Nine tenths of the trips could be handled with a fucking telephone call (or an email, but that's pretty technically difficult for most of these guys).
And then, we have to listen to them complain about how hard it is to be away from home (two minutes later we're listening to how drunk they got in the airport bar or how the strippers in X are better looking than the strippers in Y.)
If someone makes a comment about how male geeks are neanderthal, social retards, tell them to spend 10 minutes in a room with three male, 40 y.o., ex-military, salesmen. We all look like GQ Models in comparison.
Waltz, nymph, for quick jigs vex Bud.
The bulk of that 50% figure is AOL Time Warner. Of course you could most likely attribute that to AOL being an ISP with a proprietary interface that tends to route surfers through their own pages. So I'd say that AOL certainly commands a great deal of the audience which makes up its customer base. Look below AOL and I see dominance, but nothing that's so frightening. I imagine if you looked at folks who use another ISP AOL's dominance wouldn't be so great.
AOL Time Warner Network 32.0%
Microsoft Sites 7.5%
Yahoo! 7.2%
Napster Digital 3.6%
I currently helping administer a few freebsd servers for shell services (doing it for free in order to be able to use the servers as web space and remote database testing). Most of what im handed to do is kick around a few domains and upgrade the mail server. I also keep a check on the other admins.
Before this hobby started I was working at a truck brokerage. I kept the computers running well enough that I had a lot of extra time on my hands. Well soon enough the boss figured out im spending a lot of my time doing nothing and sent me on my way. 4 weeks later *BAMN* a thunderstorm hits.. and all the computers were still running. Network hub fried, a few network cards fried and the breaker on the ups got tripped and the breaker for the server room got tripped.
The next day they call me up early 8am (mind you i dont get up till 11 am cuz of my evening job). I ignore the answering machine and doze back off to sleep. Then I wake up at 11am and check the answering machine, the boss wants me to call him (no info about what's going on). I give him a call and he lays down what has happened, they even had some knuckle head try to fix the network but couldnt. So off I go to save their buisness life. I get there, the hub has been replaced, the network cards in 1 computer is missing the server is opened up.. i replace the nic in the server and add one to one of the workstations, reset the network addresses. I think the knucklehead wiped them out cuz he thought that they were automatically assigned, no i left it easier than that and designated ip addresses for every machine so they wouldnt have any problems if any other machine wasnt up (including the dhcp server, if i ever made one). I had their network up in less than half an hour and reinstalled windows on accounting's computer (dunno how it lost so many startup files) and reinstalled their accounting software. Fixed the printer.. and got a $400.00 check for my trouble. (tho part of that check was considered for past payments they forgot to send me)
About the time I got the network functioning correctly and had the dispatchers database back online, one of the dispatchers asked the boss how I got it fixed so fast and that other guy couldnt get nothing done. The boss responded "Well, I guess you just have to know what you are doing..." That pleased me plunty.
After that day I have seriously considered going and looking for another sysadmin style job. Im working retail right now, and it's not my favorite thing to do. Right now im getting my butt chewed out for catch 22's. Either i help a customer and get chewed on by management for leaving my (locked) register, or i ignore the customer that needs help and stay at the (locked) and silent register and get talked about behind my back by the customer for not helping them.
Im getting ready to tell management to fly a kite and start searching for a sysadmin job again. (i was getting paid more as a sysadmin at the truck brokerage than i am now working in retail)
Consider yourself blessed if you are sneezed on by a dragon and only get wet, it could have been a fireball.
In my VERY recent experience, I left a consulting position to take a job with a client. YES, there was a no-compete clause and the company DOES have a lot of cash on hand to engage in lawsuits.
Generally speaking, people leave jobs all the time. It's a cost of doing business. Unless you are doing material damage to the company such as taking a customer list, they probably won't be able to sue you. Remember, if you're going to sue someone, it's best demonstrate that some real harm has been inflicted.
No damages, no recovery.
As for the contracts that say, "anything you create belongs to us," is utter nonsense. If you painted portraits as a side hobby and a museum gallery were interested in them, would the company be entitled to them first? I don't think so. People, in the normal course of their lives, create things without being required to do so by an outside entity. At work, with company resources, anything you do belongs to the company - that's how far the scope extends.
Nor can they claim that you "owe" them anything for training or procedures learned. A technical profession REQUIRES that one stay current.
Anyone can present you with a piece of paper to sign. Just because they tell you that they can sue you, it doesn't mean that it's possible to sue you. Let's face it, people can be real bastards. People take advantage of each other all the time. It's common sense to know what you can you and, more importantly, what THEY can and can't do to you.
Those who do not know their rights are condemned to perpetual servitude.
There's other interesting things as well, but I wouldn't want to post their names is this forum, though I have no respect for either of them. Send me an email and maybe we can talk.
One of the projects I look after is our teleworkers. Currently we use an ISDN line that provides data at 128K until the phone is picked up, then the 2nd BRI is dropped as data and becomes voice. Recently, our supplier of our ISDN routers went out of business. As a result, we took it as an opportunity to investigate other solutions (a Megalink at the office to ISDN lines, or VPN... both result in substantial $$$ savings). My manager sent out a message to all the other groups saying we wouldn't be setting up any more teleworkers while we investigated other options. No sooner did this happen that I was told to order an addon to a PCMCIA adaptor that would connect to ISDN as opposed to POTS. When I mentioned that this wasn't a great idea (no voice cabablility which is essential, don't have a laptop for the new teleworker, plus, nothing on the office end for them to dial into) I was told to just order it, they didn't want to hear about problems.
I'm not the only one either. Over half of our second level group has had loud arguments with management in the last few weeks, and they don't appear to see the problem!So, I spend $400 of taxpayers' money on a piece of gear that we couldn't use. When it showed up, I was told to make it work. When I again brought up these problems, I was told I was "making excuses and putting up road blocks". I actually got in trouble for this!!
Similarly, I was asked to look at different DHCP solutions. I did. Surprise, after costing out W2K, Win NT4, Linux, and standalone hardware devices, Linux came out the cheapest. We have 3 people in the office who are familiar enough to support a Linux based server running DHCP. When I submitted my paper with costs, support issues, and finally my reccommendation, I was told that when writing up the paper there was too much personal prejudice, that Linux wasn't the answer just because I liked it. So instead, we bought a W2K license ($1500) put it on a big Dell Server ($40,000) which serves up addresses to ~500 users. Geez, I've got a 486 at home that could do the same thing running Linux.
So, as I said, I'm looking for a new job. They offer lots of training, I work with a great bunch of people, but management can't admit when they're wrong, can't treat us with respect, and refuse to even consider a technology they know nothing about (not that they know much about any technology, they just think they do).
Okay, rant mode off!I can see it now...you beat the game and get this:
Produced by: Three Guys Graphics by: This one tall guy, and maybe a girl.
------
Let me give you the lowdown
FYI -- these are the guys that write the control software for the engines, fuel management, shift patterns, etc. In F1, the margin between the top teams is so small, that any gain in something as small as reduced shifting time between gears is a major deal. Over the course of a race, those reduced times add up, since their are sometimes thousands of shifts per race (e.g., Monaco).
there are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots
Game Programmers don't begin to earn what normal IT programmers do, and many of the game programmers are technically more adept and more committed to their work. For example, the same person would make between $55,000 and $85,000 as a game programmer, and $80,000 to $110,000 as an IT programmer (in modern languages like C++, Java, etc.) So don't think game programmers are rich.
As for retaining employees, absurd tactics like hiding them away, keeping them from visiting conventions, etc., are bad short-term solutions. The best way to retain employees is to have a good company culture. In America that means the people with any motivation leave the bad companies and go contract for other bad companies (or if they're really lucky, a good company.)
Most companies suck though. One reason is the stock market. As soon as a company becomes "public", they're beholden to the almighty quarterly earnings per share increase. Virtually all long-term positive goals (that ultimately would result in greater profits over a longer period) go right out of the picture because the pointy haired upper managers focus on doing anything possible to make this quarter's numbers good enough to keep their jobs.
Bah now I'm all pissed off again.
.sigs are for post^Hers.
spoken like a true college student :)
print out this post, then look over it in 8 years and see what you think...
.sigs are for post^Hers.
anybody dork. I'll have to write that one down :)
.sigs are for post^Hers.
"Lean"! HA, I work for one of the Big Three Auto Co.s (hint: #4 on the Big 200 from a few articles ago). We have "Lean", we have "Six Sigma", we have "shareholder value", we have "consumer vision"... Ill tell ya man, we got's em' all.
Recently, after a company wide survey of employees cited 'stress' as a major problem (we didnt get the resutls of the survey as we were promised) they decided that to 'fix' the problem what would they do? They hired a team of consultants to conduct 16 hours of 'stress managment' at every facitliy. See, were going to solve the problem by helping you learn to deal with stress. Terrific!
Ive taken to simply mocking and laughing at the whole mess - the meetings, the double-speak-CYA-pinheads-skyrocketing-to-the-top jerks, etc etc.
our CEO has a real fancy for the word "robust". Robust, Robust, Robust. "We'll fix this problem by being pro-active with a lean and robust solution." is the way to say it - so, Ive taken to saying "ding" whenever anyone says "robust" within earshot... some of the other engineers will have their PHBs in talking to them in cubes near mine, when thier boss says 'robust' I say "ding", as if in normal conversation with someone here, and listen to them snicker while there boss asks 'what?'.
Our culture has become so fixated on their work life - that the unholy unnatural abomination that this unhealthy fixation has caused is just laughable... people are not meant to care about this kind of modern work, and these things we hear about (and witness) is the dis-functional result of PHBs (with obvious questionable balance) and their attempt to deal with their fsked up fixation on work. Basically, I believe that because people *REALLY* dont care about there work lives, but are forced to pretend and dilude(sp?) themselves and their own conscience, that these kinds of no-mind/boneheaded things are the manifestations of this situation.... its the sureal result of mass hysteria. Rent "brazil" from your local independant video-store.
FYI: Speak Softly and carry 'a bow' - I always hated playing warriors with their feable/inflexible swords, Rangers and Thieves got to use (cross)bows.. now thats the weapon to have...
No. I've yet to see a union that's done anything constructive. All they do is blackmail companies to try and extract unreasonable pay and working conditions.
I live in a very heavy CAW (union) town. Let me tell you that the employees demand VERY reasonable conditions and pay in exchange for giving their time to make the company money. My city wouldnt be in the place it is today had it not been for the community-centered policies of the union and its leadership. Bosses/owners will exploit (to no end) if people dont stand up and demand to be treated well. Workers do the work - workers should realize the reward.
Ill tell you what friend - Im a taxpayer, and a techie. Give me the name of your bosses-boss && tell me where your office is; Ill look up the MP - Ill then phone both these bastards. I will tell them I had heard about this f'ing fiasco, how Im outraged at how our tax $$ are being wasted. Give me a little more detail, be carefulll not to give anything that could enable me to point the finger directly at you, and Ill rip these twits a new a-hole.
I am BOTH of *THERE* bosses, I will simply voice my compalint.
I work for a hardware/software company and when we finished a "motherboard" the layout guy put his name, the EE's name, and my name (firmware) in the silkscreen printed on the card. Everyone thought it was cool, no big deal, they were printed real small and did not stick out. Well, upper management found out and made us take the names off and replace them (at most) with our initials instead. They didn't want the competition to know who our engineers were, for a variety of reasons, but one was the fear of employment offers. I'm not saying management was wrong, just that it happened.
Stupider like a fox! - H.S.
The average Japanese salaryman in tokyo works 6 days a week, 10 hours a day. He does get two weeks off a year for vacation typically, but his sense of loyalty will reduce this to about 4 days. After work each day he is ususally obliged to go out for a drink with his co-workers, and then take a one hour (or more) train ride home, long after his kids have gone to bed. He sees them on Sunday - if he can stay awake.
While that sounds pretty bleak, it is slowly changing during the current depression cycle in Japan. Newer, smaller companies are instituting 5-day work weeks and sane hours. Similar to the paradigm shift in the US, men and women are changing jobs to better their positions, rather than stick with one company their whole life.
Fortunately, my friend works for a foreign company which has a western job environment. That's the best way to work in Japan - for a foreign company, then you can partake of the amazing wonders of Tokyo and not have to work like a dog. :)
--Mike
Mike Massee
Hey managers, take a fucking clue. This is what happens when you don't train: You end up with a work crew of once basically competant guys who've given up on fighting tooth and nail for the training to learn how to do their job right, and who instead settle for half-right, half-assed work.
I don't care, I get paid by the hour, not by the job, or by how well the job is accomplished. I don't get a share of the profits. And I don't get anything close to a fair raise based on my performance. Why should I care if the company does well or take any pride in my work?
I feel myself growing stupider day by day...
You see? You see? Your stupid minds! Stupid! Stupid!
Offtopic? How the hell is this offtopic?
Go Kathryn Thurber!
In a bullfrog game named Syndicate, corporations (I think) battle for world control, including stealing each-other's top researchers... I'm sure that that's what this is really all about. :-)
This could be related to the recent slashdot article on Dynasty: Blood somethingorrather and the real-life violence it causes in South Korea. The more publicity these guys get (the more people who know these guys faces) the bigger chance there is of violence against them.
Of course, it could be the corporations, but if your programmers are fearing for their safety from real-life mafia types, would it look good to say that at an E3 convention?
Good, enlightened managers will do their best to keep their employees happy so they don't have to think about leaving the company. Of course, managers may not be able to provide everything that their employees want. It's possible that people may leave because they want greater challenge or want to work on different technology, and the manager can't offer it. But to use threatening or coercive means like this to keep employees from straying seems mostly counterproductive to me. (And yes, I'm commenting on American practices, even though the original article is about Japan.)
Intergrity???? Pride??? Refusal to be a lemming???Any number of reasons. Not to mention that in this case they are spending his and MY money.
"Consistency is contrary to nature, contrary to life. The only completely consistent people are the dead." A. Huxley
...just apply the Golden Rule.
Do Unto Others As You Would Have Them Do Unto You.
This case of blacking out the programmers faces is clearly a violation of the Golden Rule, and therefore, unethical.
For young hi-tech Japanese these days, job loyalty doesn't mean much more than it does to their American counterparts.
Perhaps not loyalty in the sense of sacrificing one's free time / etc. to the company, but there's not nearly as much job hopping as you seem to think--mainly because the people who do take full-time jobs take them because they want job security, which is something Japanese companies are (even now) much more willing to offer than American companies. Even Japan's labor laws prohibit "arbitrary" firing of full-time employees, though you can of course find a reason for anything if you look hard enough. There was also a survey done recently by a government office which showed a slight increase compared to 2-3 years ago in willingness to stay at a single job indefinitely (as with all surveys, take with as many grains of salt as you need).
The fact that management is concerned about losing employees should indicate that it is, if not a major problem, at least a possibility.
Yup. Going from 0.1% to 1% is a tenfold increase--anyone would be worried at a tenfold increase!
No, I don't have any actual data on frequency of job changing on hand at the moment, but I can tell you my friends (same age group, early-mid 20's) are all pretty shocked when they hear how often Americans change jobs. (Incidentally, the number I heard a few years back was once every 2-3 years... has that changed significantly?)
Even in high-tech, the offices are cramped, the hours are long, and the bureacracy is thick. And don't forget the infamous Tokyo commute.
As opposed to American companies, where you have to run across the building to talk to a coworker, the hours are long, and the bureaucracy is thick. And don't forget the infamous Beltway parking-lot traffic jams.
It all depends on your definition of "better".
--
BACKNEXTFINISHCANCEL
Companies look at employees as a resource
Indeed. And so do their competitors. If you take the entire team away from a competing company, you kill their entire development process. How long would it take them to restaff, retrain, get a team that works well together and knows the software inside out?
You could easily drive your competitor out of business in one fell swoop.
I can see why they would want to hide the faces of their programmers. But I usually wear a mask to work anyway.
---------------------------
'No rational religion claims "supernatural" exists, that's an atheist slander.' - seen on slashdot.
I wish somebody would come and extract some of the high-level employees from my company with force.
---------------------------
'No rational religion claims "supernatural" exists, that's an atheist slander.' - seen on slashdot.
Its important to note that "Tonight2" also features strip clubs and "love hotels" regularly with the obligatory pg-13/R? shots. Maybe that's why I watch it so much...
Anyway, I think it was more of an image thing than trying to avoid stolen employees. Like, our employees are so awesome that they might be 'stolen' oh no!
Its not like any employee would put being on Tonight2 on their resume... unless they were applying to some porn sites for web work.
Interactive Visual Medical Dictionary
Then fire those programmers and hire some engineers. Too many people claim to be able to write software, but very few know why their software works, and even fewer can articulate the rationale behind its operation.
There's a well known 80/20 rule in software development, " 20% of the people do 100% of the work. The other 80%? Try to avoid them!"
Employers have long put forth free market theories to justify their positions. These theories assumed roughly equal bargaining power and good information for both parties (employer and employee), neither of which was really present. Now that employees do have good information, and, we might assume better bargaining power, can we expect employers to stop citing economics and start doing silly, desparate things? I think so.
who's moderating the meta-moderators?
There are a host of irreplaceable men in the country's graveyards.
Or something like that.
Anyway, you're an idiot if your project depends on having a particular individual doing a particular job at a particular time. Anytime I see this happening to any project I'm running, I move the person off to another job and put in an understudy for the role.
Tempestdata is correct. If I've expended time, energy, and resources (including money), why shouldn't I try to keep the employee? I don't mean by chaining them to their desk; but it may just be a financial reality that I can't afford to pay them what they guy across town can, and would rather not have the new employee "bought" away now that I've spent some of the fewer resources I have training and nurturing them. Dancclark, don't act like the workers are all altruistic angels who suffer as slaves beaten down by the man. That's just not the whole picture of reality. If I'm a decent boss, and I treat you well (including a decent salary, and training to further you), why can't I expect a little loyalty. And why can't I take such simple steps as blurring your face on television to keep the guys with deeper pockets from purchasing you, after I've made you what you are (assuming, of course, that I actually have made you what you are)?
Hot Damn! It's the Soggy Bottom Boys!
After changing jobs a couple times and finding a better environment to work in, I've found I actually read it again.
-- .sig are belong to us!
All your
A feeling of having made the same mistake before: Deja Foobar
You know everyone complains about horrible employers and granted there are many really bad ones out there that are just out to tear you open and take everything you make but there are also many companies that are on the other extreme and many in the middle.
Fact of the matter is no one would have these jobs if people individually took the initiative to resarch the corp they are going to work at. In the technical field we are in the unique position not to ask for work but to take a position.
Even in the econmys current state for skilled people there are 100s (yes 100s maybe 1000s) of companies that are clawing all over eachother for good talent.
If you are one of these people DONT COMPLAIN. Get another job and this time really RESEARCH the corp your going to sign a contract to. Make sure you know the culture and that you would fit in. Ask other employees about the place (most people in HR will even give you #s of people within the company you can talk to).
Remember money is not the only factor (though it is a big one) you have to be happy to. Personally I spent 3 months job hunting 2 years ago and turned down over 15 offers some higher than what I make now. But after all the research and time I found a company I am truly happy with (of course time and econmics can change things but for now they are excellent). I enjoy work (thou sometimes the clients and the sales people tick me off) the culture is great and even if it is not the most stellar salary I feel I am fairly compensated and appriceated for my work.
This is not the perfect company (I would say its on the good end though) and it did not walk up to me right away I had to search for it. It takes a lot of guts to turn down a good offer (even when you know the company is crap) but its well worth it to hold out.
For those of you that are saying "Well I dont have those skills that employers are clawing for." I say "GET THEM THEN" no one is going to hand you a silver platter or a box with root. You have to build your skills on your own (unless you got a rich family or something). And yes learning these things may take work so just live with it.
Oh and as for the sysadmins.....if you can convert a mainframe application into a web based application that is not only user friendly but also intergrates 3 other systems without trashing the orignal mainframe then....what are you doing as a sysadmin????
"Don't mess with him, he taunts the happy fun ball."
I don't consider this a bad thing really, I'm glad my employer wants to hang on to me. On the other hand, I would have given anything to have been "stolen" (or rescued) from my last job...
Being a programmer is generally a thankless job. I think its a mistake for this company to take away some of their employee's kudos. I also fail to see how obscuring their faces on TV is going to protect them from recruiters. All a headhunter needs is your name and/or phone number to contact you.
To understand what's right and wrong, the lawyers work in shifts ...
Well, it used to be the case... but AFAIK, it isn't any longer. Yes, lots of the Japanese companies still have employees there who have only ever worked for that company. And yes, new employees can probably expect to stay with the first company that hires them for many many years. But it's no longer guarenteed....
It worked both ways, you see. The companies got loyal and productive employees because the employees knew they had a job for life (Obviously a sign of the different mentality... a lot of Americans would slack off) and the employees were more productive and loyal to the company because the company was going to keep them around for life. Compare that to the "standard" in American companies where turnover can run as high as 80% in a single year. (Okay, gross generalization, I know... only in a few fields does it run that high... restaurants, merchandizing, Silicon Valley...)
Also, because of the "lifetime contract", they weren't afraid to train their employees. Compare that to the Dilbert-esque world we seem to live in (yes, I swear, my life seems more like Dilbert's every day) where training is something that happens to employees right before they mysteriously leave the company.
Kierthos
Mr. Hu is not a ninja.
Yes corporations are stupid-greedy. Denial of training, fear of promotional tracks that could include transferable skills, it's all part of the dumb corporate culture in '01.
That's why, when recently laid off from a midwest company of mentioned immaturity, I thanked my lucky stars. The going is tough, but at least I'm going forward.-dp
It sounds out of hand, but the programmer's market in Japan is quite lunatic in reality, and it's been known to happen that a company will find out what a programmer looks like, then have people (attractive, if they think it'll make a difference) waiting outside that company's offices to bump into the person "accidentally" when he/she (but mostly he) comes out.
So, in a way, the craziness you propose is not so crazy after all.
Virg
Peter Norton's face every time I boot up at work. Lets get with the program Peter...
+++ UGUCAUCGUAUUUCU
That's a very immature way to look at a job. At a job, they pay you to do what they say. Why should you care if they use Linux or W2K or a bunch of monkeys in a box?
I was "offered" a job in Japan some years ago. The problem was that no one could say what my position would be, what the terms of employment would be, or what the salary would be. All of these decisions were the exclusive perogative of the President of the company, and I had to absolutely agree to accept the position, whatever it might be, before meeting the President. They thought it reasonable that I sign my life away, but unthinkable that I make the President lose face!
I spent five years working for one of the largest brokerage comanies in the US. I maintained and updated their nightly satellite data distrubtion system. After five years of pager duty and fire stomping I told them I wanted out. I wanted to get into their web development. I wanted some new skills. They said, "OK. We'll see what we can do." They were hiring newbie web developers for what I was making, pushing high-profile projects with contractors. I was quietly kept where I was, protecting and coddling the bread and butter. I told them I was quitting if I didn't get something new to do, so they said, "How about we let you redesign the system first, and then we'll let you work on other things." I spent a year leading a project got it to the integration testing phase. They offered me the title of the lead for that system. Hell, I was doing that for three years already! I jumped ship and went to contracting. That system never went production. The entire group fell from a dozen people to two who maintain it now. Everyone else left the group within a month.
Sometimes it pays to keep your talent happty and at least in the company. Losing one key player can have much bigger impact.
- Sig this!
Hiding your engineers is pretty typical for the entertainment software industry. The cheapest way to recruit quality employees is to steal them from another company. I've had managers from other companies attempt to steal my employees away with false promises and trivial pay increases. Top game development talent is always hard to come by. There's a protocol in the game development community that says that a manager will not steal a programmer from another manager. Doing so is basically a declaration of war. There are several videogame companies -- id and Prolific come to mind -- that have voicemail greetings that specifically tell recruiters to fuck off.
You're absolutely right! :)
All sysadmins I know are good programmers and viceversa.
Here in small companies, they hire only programmers to do entire job.
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Please visit vegnews.org
A really sad little drama, really. Corporations these days want their employess to act like entrepeneurs. This, of course, is code for employees to take on responsibility for their own training, career management, etc. so that the shareholders don't have to. This is otherwise known as getting something for nothing.
Juxtapose this amusing trend with the Japaenese BSOD over their staff's faces and things really start to get bizarre.
Feels like the making of a William Gibson novel...
CrazyLegs
"Pork!!" said the Fish, and we all laughed.
If giving due credit where credit is due is so bad for the business, ask yourself why the movie industry includes the full name of every little moron that once held a coffee cup on the set of a movie in the credits at the end?
Software is not supposed to be about how to work around a useability issue. - Ken Barber
A former collegue was hired as a technical writer in some faceless IT startup, on the basis that he was a native English speaker. Great perks, promise of a bright future with the company, stock options, etc.
After a couple of releases of the product, management let the word out that, now that everything had been proofread twice and only minor changes would be required for future releases, that bloody foreigner is costing too much so everyone is invited to make him feel unwelcome so he will leave voluntarily and we won't need to fire him.
Interrestingly enough, he later learned, when interviewing elsewhere once he started feeling the heat, that recruiters had tried reaching him but were told "No, this is a local company. We never employ foreigners, therefore have no one by that name working here".
Software is not supposed to be about how to work around a useability issue. - Ken Barber
-Being discouraged from presenting at security conferences (professional ones, not HOPE2K or DefCon)
-Having to fend off attempts by my current employer to seize intellectual claims of ownership to research that occurred before I began employment with this company
-Being told that any projects I was working on with other people on the side would become property of this company
-Being told that the solution to the above-mentioned problem was simply "Just don't put your name on it."
I think it's terrible that so many IT companies have started doing this, but it's really not just programmers who are suffering under it. And in a lot of ways, I can understand how some of the things that are a problem for me shouldn't be for a programmer either. After all, when you're hired to write code, that code naturally should belong to the company paying for it, just as I consider any reports or work to be the property of whoever funds them. But research I do on my own time, to keep my own skills up? Good lord! Based on that logic, this company owes a royalty to every company I ever worked at!
For your security, this post has been encrypted with ROT-13, twice.
You have to remember this is Japan, and see it within that cultural context. Along with this comes different ideologies and different work ethics compared to the US. It seems to work for them, but probably wouldn't propagate very well in the US or here in the UK. In the UK software industry there is a tendency for staff to leave a job and move on, sometimes only staying for several months. This brings with it some advantages, as programmers learn a whole new set of skills with each employer they work for, and carry these skills with them as they switch between jobs. UK employers almost expect this to happen, it's common practice now for employers to ask for a reimbursement in training fees if an employee leaves after only a short time. This happens because salary and working conditions at most UK software houses aren't good enough to retain staff. Japan has never had a problem with this, but Japanese companies find it hard to migrate their work ethics when they move operations abroad, such as Nissan in the UK. It's no hindrance or obstacle to Japanese staff, as they aren't contractually obliged to stay with the same company until they retire. As long as staff are given credit for their work and creativity, which I think they are, then I see no real problem with this.
~~~~~~~~~ "I must create my own system, or be enslav'd by another man's." William Blake, Jerusalem.
A contract is an AGREEMENT, thus, you should never sign it is there is anything in it which which you don't agree, like pre-employment poop-scans.
You always have a choice: http://www.ip4noman.org/refusal/
yes
It seems that some /. don't run companies. I have run 3 so far. So let me say a point of view.
1) Most Tech people take a lot pride in "their" system ( I have come to the realize that any system within the office belongs to the Tech's and it's better for the company that way ).
2) back when dot com numbers were flying high. Loyalty was the dollar nothing else.
3) Those that stayed with me, I was forced to pay very high.
3A) Now we eat, drink, get drunk, on the cost savings of those that left chasing the dollars.
4) Those that have tried to come back, I wont let into the door.
5) I tried to prevent some of my best talent from leaving, I USED my contracts and enforced them. end result was positive. They stayed until the contract was done, and those loyal to me reviewed their work with a microscope.
6) Those that were loyal, now realize that the new economy gives me the chance to hire equal talent at better prices. So what do they do, show me that they can get the better talent hired and split the savings as a bonus for themselves.
7) those that were loyal I gave company stock to. I sold the company and they walked into a nice pile of cash.
As a business owner. I fear recuiters. Because they entice with money, but never with value. I had to make people understand with an open book policy that their bonus and earnings was based on the overal company growth.
Sometimes the money is upfront, sometimes the money is on the backend. but at least when you have an open book policy, you know what your value is to the firm.
ONEPOINT
PS. If you saved your company $50 per day as a new cost savings. would they give you a bonus for that savings? if yes then stay there and talk to them about open book management. If not, ask why, then if the answer is not good enough, LEAVE for a company that will give you that bonus.
if you see me, smile and say hello.
Ok before I start a reply to the above, let's talk about how to protect yourself.
1) one of the first things you should learn is that a lawyer can be the greatest benifit to you. So take the $150.00 to have you employement contract reviewed.
2) this one is very difficult but will stand up in a court of law.
Start a daily business work diary, log your actions and the actions that are done to you. Include e-mails that are part of the project. anything that is related to work also should be included.
After about 1 month this will be a habit, the time effort is about 15 minutes of your day but well worth every penny.
At the end 90 days, Submit a copy your diary ( printed ) in a standard memo form. By submitting it as a memo to an officer of the company, they are required to accept reciept. Reciept is the KEY here. If they read your diary, you'll be safe from most actions. Also you have just placed yourself in the firing / hiring line, because nobody ( nobody = corp. officer ) likes to recieve 80 page memos, also they will hate to know that there is somebody watching their actions. Now a good "nobody" will also put you on the path to promotions because if they read your monthly diary they will see the advancements, problems and results of that department. As "nobody" move up the chain of command so will you.
Now to the above post:
>How about a boss who steals credit for everything his employees do and claims it as his own initiative even if he so much as received an e-mail from the employee with the complete project from start to finish?
my statement #2 resolves that issue
>How about that same boss demeaning the employee to his superiors while claiming the employees work?
To open ended of a question? I think this reply might resolve the issue. A document review and work review board should clear you.
>How about the time, effort and money the employee invests in his own training that is not compensated by the company but is used by same?
That is what your hired for, your talents that you are bringing in house. If you find that you have aquired new talent ask for a raise or other compensation.
>How about a program development that is used by this company in their world-wide organization without even so much as a *nod* to the developer?
hate to say this: Most firms don't look at the "tech's " as freinds but and part of a production line that should be reduced in cost. I hate to say that but I have noticed from other "techs" that it seems to be an industry norm.
> How about the company who accepts further development from the self-taught and self-trained employee and does not offer patent or compensation for such development.
Your should have it in your log book the work you have done and ask for a raise. It would be justified if the work you did was after normal work hours and if the company "might" profit. otherwise get legal and patent it yourself.
> How about the same employee who has SAVED the said company 9 million dollars, 4 million dollars and much more without even getting a thank you for it? Indeed, the employee was written-up by the manager for spending too much time on the same programs that cut mfg. steps in plant-wide, company-wide production from 35 steps to 2 saving 2 hrs. production time per shift over 3 shifts.
Ok, You had a big problem. but following some of my rules above should have help you out. Worst case I would follow this rule " The sqeeky wheel get's the grease "
as for the rest of your comments, well I see that you found an oppertunity to advance your career and grow. ( pour that man a pint ). Alas, your had to fight the stuctures of the 80's. If you worked for GE and had followed my rule #2 since your employment you would never have been fired. I know of no case where GE personel have been fired that have produced consistant savings for them. what happens is they get transfered and/or promoted even when they have those huge layoffs.
Note: I don't own any shares of GE or releated parties
ONEPOINT
My web site is artistcorner.tv . It's hip hop news if you can tell me how to make it better I would be thankful
if you see me, smile and say hello.
If I want a new job, I'm perfectly capable of picking up the phone.
The line "the company rep said 'because other companies would try to steal our employees'." to me sounds comical. Surely this is no more than a lame attempt to hype their latest efforts? Lets face it, what self respecting employer would ever consider a candidate worthwhile because they've been on TV? Conversely, generating an air of secrecy and excitement may prove a productive ploy - and has the desirable side effect of masking a bunch of callow youths, who quite possibly look far more impressive incognito - especially if any of them sport the western programmers' appearance after a long night of code cranking.
http://joel.editthispage.com/stories/storyReader$4 0
r $2 4
http://joel.editthispage.com/stories/storyReade
--
Two witches watched two watches.
Which witch watched which watch?
Finally an article where I can reply to without sounding like a retard (I'm not a full nerd unlike most of you). The difference in corporate culture here is frequently referred to as shareholder primacy versus stakeholder theory. Common law countries are generally based around the shareholder primacy ideology - that is, shareholders are the owners and are the primary interests to be taken into account of. Indeed, they have control of the company through resolutions. Japan and so forth runs a stakeholder theory where everyone, including employees, directors, the public community, the industry all have relevant interests in the company. This is relevant I believe because it's not as 'greedy' as all of you US people assume it to be. In US, it's assumed that everything is money grabbing, because of the shareholder primacy crap, but in Japan, it's viewed as preserving the interests of the company as a whole and relevant industry and perhaps the country's employment (ie if a hideously looking employee was headhunted to the US). Also note that Japan's corporate strucutres are generally 'insider' systems that is, where shareholders have large blocks of shareholdings and thus monitoring is of a much higher standard than the US where lots of small shareholders do jack and can't be bothered to monitor the company. This is relevant once again as companies are under a much more (arguably) stringent management and if they fail, they are shamed by their bosses, and indeed themselves because they have failed to live up to the expectations of the community by affecting it adversely (as per above stakeholder argument). - Not IANAL.
I could mention the insane contract clauses that are routinely signed (ok, maybe not in California) that say you cannot work for a competitor (or anyone who competes in the same field)..
How about never sending employees off on any conferences or any sort of professional course, despite repeated requests ? that happens too.. (Oh, we don't have the cash.. but btw, all managers travel Business class)
How about needing to buy books with your own cash, because the company doesn't have any sort of allowance for that ?
My point is that there are lots of companies out there that would try to hang on to their workers at all costs, regardless of the consequences.. they work, very simply on the premise that, if you reduce options, you get "desperate employees" who are "forced" into doing well at their present job.. in other words, they are not "distracted" by other offers...
I've seen all of this and a few more (the Dilbert joke about the PHB making Alice demand all sorts of outrageous things from the client, so she wouldn't be recruited is too close for comfort )...
So... employers help employees better themselves ? not hardly..
Wait a second. You can show a woman topless on Japanese TV, and you can even show them getting bukkake-fied (for lack of a better term) as long as the male genetalia is censored. But they covered up their faces? Wow...talk about censorship. You sure this isn't China? :p
The game was Dynasty Warrior 2. Cool. Check it out.
Masking out the development team? Well, may be they affraid their fans will ask them for their autographs... ;-P
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Error 500: Internal sig error
Yes, they have great benefits lots of the time, but they don't make much, have longer hours that require them to do more work in their free time than most people in IT, and earn that extra pension since they do jobs that people often choose not to do because they would risk death (cops) or being abused by students and parents if they try to stand up for themselves (teachers).
Our CS department is losing 3 teachers, including the head of the department, in the next 2 years, and we asked how they expected to replace them. They told us seniors that they really don't know since any CS professor that's qualified could easily make twice as much in the open market probably, doesn't have to stick around and hold office hours for students, and doesn't have to deal with the BS of being a teacher. If the head of a CS department at a college (which pays more than your average teacher) realizes they are screwed when compared to what other businesses can offer an IT person, then I think you should check your facts on what people really make again.
I could be wrong, but isn't it 'karoshi?' "Work death" would be the translation, I think.
Death from overwork.
(Dying in an accident at work would not be called 'karoshi'.)
> they have great benefits lots of the time, but they don't make much, have longer hours that require them to do more work in their free time than most people in IT, If they have longer hours, then they can't have much free time to do more work in. Aside from your blunder in logic, what I think you are trying to say: "cops and teachers have to work more than IT people" is simply not true. Sorry, no banana.
You take eight very good programmers and their employers and fly them to a computer fair on an island in the phillipines. They are then separated: the programmers get to walk about on the fair, with stands that have been especially chosen to be appealing to the programmers (better pay, work more in line with their qualifications etc). Employers are put in little boxes and are subject for comments meant to annoy them ("You really think he's going to stay with your rotten company?" etc). When a programmer makes some kind of deal with one of them, it is taped and shown to his current employer. The employer can then abuse him for the rest of his time at the employers business.
What do you think?
xkcd is not in the sudoers file. This incident will be reported.
Thanks for the kind words. Since the majority of my coworkers are ethnic Chinese, I am reminded of cultural differences daily.
It's their life not the company's.
Japan is different from America. I haven't been there, but I'm told that Japanese culture doesn't place quite the premium on individuality that American culture does. Perhaps those who have spent time in both places could shed some light on this.
I have to agree that the face masking was a pretty cowardly move in any case.
Is there a programmers or a technical personal union? There ought to be, can you think of a group of workers that need it more with the important skills that we have? A couple big names in the tech industry that don't own companies and aren't owned by them either should set one up. I'd join, wouldn't you?
"A witty saying proves nothing." - Voltaire
I don't know how this got marked funny. Oh for some mod points...
Reboot macht Frei.
there's always a tension between the greed of a company versus the greed of worker
where the company wins all conflicts, you have a pure capitalist society, where the worker wins all conflicts, you have a pure socialist society
both are bad, extremes on a continuum, companies trading in the rights of their workers' offspring a likely scenario where the company is king, and 2 hour workdays and the whole workforce striking because the company cafeteria doesn't serve caviar a scenario where the worker is king
since this newscast was something controlled by the company, then their greed controlled the forum and therefore the decision to block out the designer's faces
fine, it was their press junket
let the worker fight back by communicating to other prospective employers themselves covertly if they feel like it, nothing is preventing them from doing that
it's an arms race, always has been, always will be... declawing the company will only tip the scales towards one extreme, declawing the worker the same, in the opposite direction... as long as both are in balance in the arms race, the "happy" medium will prevail, we'll all have to wake up in the morning and have to go to work, and the company will always have to scramble to put enough (just enough) money in our coffers to keep us waking up in the morning and going to work (nobody mentioned anything about doing that happily)...
*sigh* c'est la vie
intellectual property law is philosophically incoherent. it is your moral duty to ignore it or sabotage it
As has been mention in this and a hundred other replies, in Japan, there is a different, stronger form of company loyalty than exists in NorthAm. In NorthAm, a headhunter offers you money, in various forms (raises, car, travel expenses, paid vacations), and maybe a little prestige in the form of a title.
It doesn't work that way in Japan. Japanese headhnters are experts at what they do, using all the tools that the human psyche allow. They specialise in finding out what will work for you. If that happens to be money, then it's easy. Maybe is a new title, with a home closer to somewhere important to you. Perhaps a guarantee of work for your children. If it happens to be thinly veiled threats, they can get away with it, because it would cost you a great deal of pride to say that you were speakin with a headhunter, even though it would be very rude to refuse him a conversation.
see the problems? Japan is not NorthAm. It can be as much for the protection of the staff as the company.
Even if it looks like a duck, and quacks like a duck, you can't be sure until you see the RealDuck
I've worked for a company which would attempt to
stop people acquiring marketable skills. While
you could program in C++, only one person was
allowed near Corba/Oracle/Sybase, ie: the
complementary skills which would allow employees
to easily find another job...
Smid
In my case, I was looking to move from call center flunkie doing technical support for voicemail (a job I took because I needed a paycheck, doing what it took to earn a living) into the sort of IT position for which I was much more suited, both in terms of experience and temperment.
I couldn't get so much as an interview for an internal promotion, and my requests for use of the company's training materials were turned down because the "request is not related to job functionality." Correct. I had already learned everything I needed to know to do my particular job.
Here's the funny part: My annual review with the company was excellent; my merit raise was higher than average, and in fact, my manager RAISED the raise suggested by my direct supervisor.
Yet they wouldn't let me out of the call position. When the stress of the inbound call line flaked me out, I pleaded to be moved to a non-call job, even with a pay cut, even if that meant pushing a broom and cleaning toilets. "Well," they said, "it's a call center."
Unable to retain me, I left the company, bitter and disappointed about their promise of offering growth and opportunity (in a company with 50,000+ employees!) that translated into being pigeonholed into taking calls for the rest of whatever life I chose to spend with them.
While this particular case was extreme, I've seen promises of growth in other companies as well, and have never once seen them deliver. I wonder if the whole idea of "growth opportunity" is nothing but a b*llsh*t ploy designed to recruit, and then we hope we can string 'em along long enough to make our money off the OJT we did.
Remove the caps and hold to a mirror.
Well said Tempestdata, its only natural to look at your (skilled)employees . :--)) lol
as precious resources when you have invested time, money and Satan knows what else in them.
Why the F' would you let them go easily ?
It's like a pimp investing time and money into his bitches
Why would he let his whores leave his flock after such an investment
You want to keep the ho's/employee's close to the stable
(So I hear
Why is this website so kickass ?? Find out for yourself --> Danny D
Geez, It's not a Nobel Peace prize
Why is this website so kickass ?? Find out for yourself --> Danny D
Of course not, but how is it unethical for a company to try to retain an employee. Both are trying to maximize profits.
Is it unethical for the employee to leave the company high and dry after using them for free training and experience ??? Answer that !
And check out my website
Why is this website so kickass ?? Find out for yourself --> Danny D
What you say is true. Japan has a much different idea of the employer, employee relationship and this is indeed a cultural Miscue. The relationship between employees and employers is seen as a family relationship where the employer is the parent and the employee is the child. When a employee leaves a company to work for another it is seen as a betrayal. There is also the idea that Japanese seek to avoid shame. Employees leaving to seek better oppurtunities that their previous employer could not provide may bring shame on the company. I'm not sure what you mean by yamato because it is my understanding that yamato are the original inhabitants of japan, much like the native americans in the united states.
-Ian
This comment seems ingenuous at best. I work in telecom in Canada, and I have been 'right-sized', 'down-sized', and 'terminated' on a number of occasions. I work in marketing and sales (and I'm an EE), and I have had the unhappy experience of listening to my technical team, selling what they told me they could make, and then watching them fail to produce. When that happens - surprise - they fire the marketing team and promote the engineers. So I got fired for doing my job too well? (If you want examples, ask!) So long as companies take that approach, I will keep my eyes and options open. No matter how much I like my boss and colleagues, if the company isn't willing to offer me a contract, then I owe them as much loyalty as they are showing me.. zero.
Besides, I don't see the industry rags reviewing the sysadmining at various companies. They review their PRODUCTS. And their SERVICES. And in a lot of the companies I work for or sell to, those services are just as important as the products. For example, you may write a nice Internet banking program, but if the admins don't keep the servers up and running, and your program can't reach my account data, what value to me is that program? In technology sales, I like the creative part of my job - finding ways to use the network and other tools to create value for my customers. But if I neglect the drudge part of my job - entering the godd*mn orders, filling out the forms, following up with the install team - guess what? I don't do diddly for my customer. Your attitude reminds me of the old saw about the brain, the stomach, and the *sshole.
Do you get it already?
Do you?
I think... it's insane that certain tribes in this world are allowed to torture their babyboys at birth... I have heard that they.... it's insane... it's like, so cruel... They take their FORESKIN away! It should be forbidden such torture!
You see, my point is, some cultures just think differently about certain things. This is no reason to suggest they're bad, and there should be laws against such things, now is it? You have to embrace what's different because differences are beautifull, no matter how they may initially upset you.
I sometimes have to deal with Java 'programmers' these days. They're still stuck in writing process flow diagrams with their 'three month lifecycle' 'product that is creative and saves the face of the company' my ass. I've also worked with guys that integrate SS7 stacks with ATM stacks and *still* understand what the fuck they're doing. Stroke of genius.
I've seen sysadmins trashing a live Oracle filesystem because they never thought of that high reliability SCSI crossmount to the second Oracle server. I've worked with 'Programmers' in the DOTcom cumpanies that only watch their stock options prices.
</BABBLE>
Cut it out people, if you really need to prove that 'your' profession is so much better than somebody else's then by my definitions you're not 'Funny', you're pitifull. It all depends on how good you are in what you do, not in what label you, or your professional owner (sorry had to make it relevant to this discussion with that remark) has classified you.
Notice that this is in Japan. The company mentality is so different from the one here that you are misunderstanding the statement of "Other companies will steal our employees". The working conditions for technical workers are far better than what you will find in America.
Things like company picnics, baseball teams, and retreats and seminars are looked forward to by all employees. That's right. Their concept of yamato means that they put the company before themselves, and then the company takes care of them. Maybe we could learn a thing or two.
This
The game, possibly Dynasty Warriors 2, was actually not that good in my opinion. While this statement seems off topic it occurred to me that maybe Koei blanked the faces as a subtle marketing ploy. "Hey, don't let 'em see the programmers. Our games are that bad ass and someone will try to steal them." Come on now. It's not like the game doesn't roll the programming credits after you beat it.
This signature thing isn't working. The ink won't stay on the glass.
How about a boss who steals credit for everything his employees do and claims it as his own initiative even if he so much as received an e-mail from the employee with the complete project from start to finish? How about that same boss demeaning the employee to his superiors while claiming the employees work? How about the time, effort and money the employee invests in his own training that is not compensated by the company but is used by same? How about a program development that is used by this company in their world-wide organization without even so much as a *nod* to the developer? How about the company who accepts further development from the self-taught and self-trained employee and does not offer patent or compensation for such development. How about the same employee who has SAVED the said company 9 million dollars, 4 million dollars and much more without even getting a thank you for it? Indeed, the employee was written-up by the manager for spending too much time on the same programs that cut mfg. steps in plant-wide, company-wide production from 35 steps to 2 saving 2 hrs. production time per shift over 3 shifts. How about the employee who finally had enough and wrote a rebuttal to a poor review and was consequently ignored by HR because his manager had friends in high places? How about one yr. later the loyal employee of more than 15 yrs was fired - along with 7,000 other people for performance issues? How about that employee now working for a service industry who treats him with the respect and integrity the other should have recognized all along? How about that side of the coin kind sir or madam?
And Apple stole its interface from Xerox! Do you know why there's only one bite out of the Apple logo? One bite and you spit it out UGHHH!
oh c'mon, this arguement is bullshit. if you know any good programmers they are half sysadmin, regardless of their title and if you know any good sysadmins they are half programmers regardless of that the company calls them.
thats just the truth of the matter.
---
"i was saying gnu-rd"
Companies look at employees as a resource, and often invest time and money in training employees for certain work. It is not suprising that they would try and 'discourage' an employee from seeking job opportunities elsewhere. It simply depends on the point of view.
- Tempestdata
And sysadmins wonder why we programers hate them. To continue, though.
At my current place of employment, it appears that the application teams are considered to be of a much higher caste than us lowly system administrators. They work a purely 9-5 day, and schedule any system work for deep off-hours. Code releases? Done during business hours.
And what do I, as a programmer actually doing work during the day see the sysadmin doing? Playing SimCity or Railroad Tycoon on the fileserver. This is supposed to deserve equal or more respect from the boss? Not. Sysadmin is by definition a part time job. Like network traffic, though, it's of a bursty nature. Plenty of time for slacking, which sysadmins always seem to be doing.
It's crazy. I mean, we're the ones responsible for keeping the systems running. You can write the best code in the world, but if you have a bad sysadmin, your data can be compromised. Heck, your app may not even run at all! And of course, we end up doing the chode work like installing JDK's, installing Oracle (since root needs to run the root.sh script, we have to be around every time Oracle is installed).
And the janitors keep the building clean and presentable. They're responsible for the image of the company. If they didn't lock the doors at night we'd be compromised!
There are 8 of us, and 170+ Sun servers. Each programmer works on only one application. That's not to say their job isn't important -- but the world isn't all about programmers.
And the company doesn't sell sysadmining and tape archiving to customers. It sells OUR product. Besides, one person can USE a great many apps. Writing an app, though is hard and requires one or more people dedicated to it. It's tough and CREATIVE work. What does the sysadmin create? Nothing He is only a user of other people's apps. Besides, I don't see the industry rags reviewing the sysadmining at various companies. They review their PRODUCTS.
Us sysadmins get called at 3:30am when a disk fails. Or when the power goes out.
Um, this is what you agreed to do and are paid to do for this job, right? No one sprang any surprises on you. It's like cops and policemen. They are not the heroes they like to tell everyone they are. They are doing what they are PAID to do. A hero does his deed for free or for the benefit of others. The moment they accept, nay, demand payment for their services, heroism it ain't. At best they're mercenaries (e.g., bounty hunters). The regularly paid ones are employees like everyone else. It's their JOB. And it's fitting that you work at 3:30am once in a while since you sit and play much of the day at work.
Or when some application bonehead deletes their .profile and wants it restored from daily backups.
Again, that's your JOB. Now be a good boy and fetch that file for the ones making the money for the company that prints your paycheck.
And you say programmers have it rough...
Yes. We do. We have to produce something. Not just keep off the shelf hardware/software running. And sometimes we have to write a custom app for you to use too. Don't worry, we'll keep it simple to operate.
Oh, and I make 2/3 what programmers of my same rank do.
Be glad. You barely do half of the work programmers do so what are you complaining about?
But at least I get root. And they don't. :-)
And the janitor has a master key to the building. Your point?
Just as the 19th century classics of Comminism predicted the companies will try to turn you, a living breathing human beung into an anonymous 'human resource'. As soon as you sign your contract you loose your identity, you rights, everything and become a 'man hour' similar to a kilowatt of energy or a barrel of oil. Maybe programmers now have it better than others but their still essentially working class deprived of means of production.
well, from my perspective, they(managers) have had to deal with(and deal out) back-stabbing to rise to their present position, so why expect them to rise above their petty stupidities? Think a bit: programmers pretty much realize and accept when they have been in the presence of someone who is better than they are, but managers are a completely different species. There is no comradery in the corporate world, only the constant waiting and manuvering, until you are replaced by someone else who has better connections. Managers lose any trace of humanity soon after they enter the ranks of their peers(take my own brother for instance, like a breathing automatron for all the personal emotions he has left). All we(programmers) can do is help each other out, create personal networks of other programmers, and if there is a job opening that one of us knows about, get it out where the rest can see. Screw the managers, they are used to it by now . . .