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TiVo Upgrade Isn't
creff writes: "TiVo's new software, version 2.0, disables features on recorders that do not have a subscription to their service. I would like to pose the question of ethics and legality of this move to the slashdot readers. Do they have the right to modify an item that you own? I don't remember clicking on any EULA..." Another reader submitted a long thread about this "upgrade".
It is unfortunate that TIVO chose to update unsubscribed units to 2.0.1, and they should allow you to revert, but the griping seems a little strong.
I love my Tivo, am glad I paid for the lifetime sub, am generally happy with the improvements in 2.0.1, and don't care that they take statistical info (it's more anonymous that what the credit card companies are selling, folks)
How can not using the advertiser's intellectual property infringe copyright law? You are not duplicating it, selling it for profit, quoting it without attribution etc. Surely this is like an author saying, "I want a royalty from you because you skipped past my book on the library shelf."
Many of the comments are about why TiVo is economically motivated to do what they did. That's fine -- but it's all about setting expectations. Tell people what they can expect, and they'll put up with an incredible amount. Don't tell them, and do what they would not anticipate, and you can easily expect to lose them as customers. Is it economic to aggravate many of your hard-core users? In the long run, I doubt it.
Which begs the question: Why are you surprised they turned on you? When will people learn that anytime the company uses closed source, they can leverage against you. And it's made worse whenever there is a reliance to operate the most basic features of the product, because they can change on the fly.
When you look at the Tivo situation, it's very clear that this product is really two. One, it has a hardware side, manufactured by Sony and Philips, and branded as such or rebranded under the Tivo name. Second, it includes software (closed-source) written by a company which profits solely by subscription to services the software access (sounds familiar? see Microsoft).
I agree wholeheartedly with you if you believe Tivo screwed you. I agree 100% that Tivos should operate manually without subscription, because you bought the hardware; it's what's sensible, and that's what good businesses should do. I agree Tivo should not penalize you for their stupidity in having a bad business model if they are now unhappy with their returns.
But I am simply amazed at the naive nature that got you screwed. Readers of /. should be the most aware people of what happens when you rely on a closed-source company to supply function--they usually take advantage of it[1]. You knew this, still bought the product, ran the risk, and ended up getting bitten.
You are not safe unless you know what's there. I know that sounds overly pro-open source and maybe a little naive of myself in saying it, but it's a theme that comes up again and again, showing itself to be pretty true. Heck, I even consider Tivo's hardware deficient. While elegant, if the company went belly up, you have no recourse to access saved programs. This isn't the same as getting customized hardware, i.e. a broadband router, which you can go and replace--this contains a software component and information you save and want to retrieve for later access.
[1] Examples of this: First, readers know MS's tactics. They force you to upgrade for functionality that should have been in the original. At least the original sorta still works. And you know when your machines is upgraded, albeit you have to pay for the upgrade to do it legally. Second, readers know about the DirecTV situation, when they nuked illegal cards one week before the superbowl. While not the same as the Tivo situation, I bring it up because anytime a company has a connection to you that you cannot control, mistakenly believe you control, or are not aware of, it's prime material for them to utilize it to their benefit. Not right and the customer feedback may be nasty, but that historically has not and will not stop companies from trying.
TiVo does NOT have any setting whatsoever for changing dialup telephone numbers or NTP server IP's. Your argument is moot. TiVo DID make the claim in their advertising and product manual that the machine works without a subscription, this is about them taking away these features post-purchase. Sneaky.
I read about the "protest" against tivo on slashdot today, and found it to be pretty bizarre. Why did this person buy a tivo if they didn't expect to subscribe to the service? How can they be ticked off about a software upgrade that they didn't even pay for? I personally think its unreasonable for to expect that the tivo would retain much if any functionality in the event that one doesn't subscribe. It's much like buying a telephone, not paying for a phone line, then complaining that the phone doesn't work. Regarding the statement that "I guess spending $400 on their product is not good enough for them." The bulk of $$$ spent on the hardware doesn't go to tivo, it mostly goes to the hardware manufacturer (sony, philips, etc..) and tivo only receives a small license fee for the technology. Tivo makes most of their money off of the subscription fees. Just my two cents.
"I watch what I want, I do what I want" Only, you don't do what we don't want you to do...
I am a Tivo owner and just wanted to point out to any who are interested that the upgrade is incredible. There are a ton of new features, most notably the season pass manager which allows you to prioritize shows so that conflicts will be automatically in the event of two shows being on simultaneously. In general, the interface is great, there are tons of options, and Tivo has totally changed the way I watch television. I can't recommend it enough, if you haven't seen it working go find someone who has it and check it out. I don't work for Tivo, I am just a very satisfied customer. I bought my Tivo for about $1000 when the first were coming out (the 30 hour model) and shelled out $250 or so for the lifetime subscription (which apparently only goes along with my unit, don't know if they offer that anymore) but I don't regret one cent of that. I've had the thing for well over a year now and I've never had a single problem with it, and many of my friends who have seen it have gone out and bought one just because they didn't like going back to regular TV after seeing Tivo. Anyway, wave of the future man, check it out. Tivo rocks my world. Everyone at Tivo, keep up the great work.
get into a tivosh set db [dbopen] trans { set setup [db $db open /Setup]
dbobj $setup set ServiceState 3
}
dbclose $db
Then disconnect your tivo from the phone line.
I have a Hauppague (sp) WinTV PVR, which is designed as a video recorder. They only support win9x at the moment, with a beta Win2k driver.
The supplied software isn't too bad, but it lacks decent scheduling.
Viewing and simple recording works under linux, but it's onboard mpeg2 compression chip isn't supported in it's current configuration.
-Yarn - Rio Karma: Excellent
It would be great, you know, if open source evangelism really worked. If "Open Source" became a feature that ordinary consumers looked for, along with Total Harmonic Distortion and Size in Cubic Feet. Without that level of penetration into the brains of the masses out there, I'm afraid that we advocates are left holding the bag. We are "locked in" to a religion that isn't taking hold.
The parent is one such example. There is no open source video recorder with the features of Tivo, and as long as there's Tivo, there probably won't be an open source version. Developers are motivated by laziness, impatience and hubris; and as long as Tivo is "close enough", they will be lazy and impatient (why spend a year developing when we can just buy one), and hubris doesn't apply when you are developing for an audience that doesn't want what you've got.
As a result, more hackers are hacking Tivo than are trying to develop an alternative. And those people wanting a religion instead of a platform are left holding the bag. It's no use telling Tivo users "I told you so" without having an open source alternative in hand; if the open source religion says "it's Tivo or nothing" I'm afraid there will be very few converts.
So Tivo made a mistake and sold a bunch of early units without explicitly requiring the subscription. I imagine they didn't think anyone would NOT get the subscription, but they also didn't anticipate hackers opening the boxes and sharing workarounds for people to avoid paying to upgrade the hardware, either -- something the "closed source" companies don't have to worry about. And now, not making any money, trying to stop the bleeding, they've assumed that anyone actually using their services is actually trying to use their services. How rude of them!
It's doubly ironic that one of the only alternatives is Microsoft. If Tivo dies, we'll all be running WebTV, you know. Or is that what you want?
(*nod) Ah yes. Forgot about that. Still, if you expect to use your Tivo for more than two years, this is still a bargain.
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Nope, no privacy loophole. The only 'gotcha' is that the 'lifetime' refers to the lifetime of the recorder, not of the subscriber. If it goes up in flames the day it gets out of warranty, you're screwed.
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> Problem is, that doesn't do any good for a normal non-geek. The issue is that Tivo is
> breaking something that people bought after purchase. What about the technophobes of the
> world? Their big breakthrough this year was understanding what a digital recorder can do for
> them -- can't expect them to get right into hacking!
The average technophobe would never get the idea to try to run the thing without the subscription in the first place. For the most part, it's the hacker mentality that would ever say "what if I just didn't pay for the service?"
In any case, read the avsforum thread referenced above -- Tivo themselves have said that the record button change was not intentional and that it will be fixed in the 2.5 release. I, for one, accept that -- I wouldn't expect Tivo to do a lot of QA testing on how their software reacts on machines that are not subscribed and so shouldn't be dialing in anyway....
(*shrug) I'm not trying to be an apologist for Tivo, but I find it pretty amusing that someone would buy the device, use it in an unsupported way, and then complain when it doesn't work. That's what 'unsupported' means -- if it breaks, you get to keep both parts.
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Preach it, brother....
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First point I'm not going to argue, particularly. I'm going to stand by my assertion that the AVERAGE Tivo purchaser plans to buy the service, and saying that everyman actually takes a minute to make the choice whether to buy the service is silly.
Second point: Incorrect. The Tivo clock can be set via NTP from any server. Alleging that Tivo has some monopoly on NTP is silly. And again, I maintain that if you want to use the device in an unsupported way, Tivo has no obligation to be your NTP server. If you choose to connect to their network for NTP, you also should accept the consequences, the "AUP" of their network. If you don't understand the implications of dialing into Tivo's network to set your clock, you probably shouldn't be trying to use the Tivo device without a subscription. You can't have it both ways.
As to the lifetime subscription: I continue to say that if your Tivo unit and Tivo itself last more than two years -- a pretty good bet as best I can tell -- it's a good deal. YMMV. Caveat Tivor.
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I really don't have much sympathy -- even if you don't want to pay for the guide data, plugging the thing into the wall to use Tivo's dialup to access Tivo's network to sync to Tivo's NTP servers means you're using their service and therefore are going to get the upgrades and other such things, and rightly so. If you don't want to take part in the Tivo process, don't plug it into the phone jack -- Tivo doesn't owe you a free clock sync if you're not paying them to use their network.
That aside, there's a couple of options. One is that Tivo offers a 'lifetime' subscription to the guide data for a flat fee of $200. Sounds expensive, but just think of it as a full-featured Tivo for a one-time cost of $600.
Failing that, you still have your old 1.3 version on there in a separate partition. Tivo upgrades load the new OS onto an alternate root partition, then when it's successful, resets the boot sector to boot from the upgraded partition. The old one is still there, as the new 'alternate,' waiting for the next upgrade.
There's a holy MESS of information in the Tivo Hack FAQ (start at www.tivocommunity.com) about how to get a serial console on your Tivo box and change around your boot partitions as well as a bunch of other stuff. Unplug your Tivo from the wall so you don't get any MORE upgrades (therefore blowing away your 1.3), and start reading. You can get your 1.3 back, although there are all SORTS of caveats and readme's about doing a revert like that. Stop complaining and start reading and learning.
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That would mean that the Tivo itself is illegal under the DMCA, since it "decripts" a video signal producing a MPEG stream, and is marketed to the United States. Sorry, already violated, all bests are off the table.
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WolfSkunks for a better Linux Kernel
$Stalag99{"URL"}="http://stalag99.keenspace.com";
--
# Canmephians for a better Linux Kernel
$Stalag99{"URL"}="http://stalag99.net";
I think about people like my uncle who buy something, figure they own it and if it quits working, they take it back. I didn't read the TiVO contract but it certainly does not sound like they make it abundantly clear that you would be forced to buy the expensive service later and that they would cripple the product if you didn't. Even if he couldn't return it, my uncle would put the damn thing back in it's box and stuff it up in the attic. Having been burnt, he wouldn't consider similar products in the future. I'm with him. I won't consider buying something like this and I'll be real quick to point out to others why they shouldn't either. Legal or not, it's dishonest.
Wansu, th' chinese sailor
It would be very hard to prove that there was actual intent to do harm. Also, the computer is explicitly not protected from Tivo. They automatically have access to it if you hook up your phone cord.
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"Hot lesbian witches! It's fucking genius!"
more like... for those of you that didn't subscribe to the data that tells the car how to run properly, the car won't run properly. The tivo only records a half an hour because that's all it knows about programs if it doesn't have guide data. It works in half hour "chunks", unless it has the guide data that tells it that the program you're currently watching is longer than that.
:)
It's more akin to the "gps system" in your car not working correctly because you didn't buy the map data! Sure, it can tell you your exact latitude and longitude, but it would be nice if you could figure out what street you were on.
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Got a source for that? I'd be interested in reading the legal definition of "effective", in re access control. Obviously, eight bit is far from effective-- but so is the CSS (a lame version of a 40 bit system).
Calm down already, from TiVolutionary's response in the forum:
"For the record...
In our next release we are reinstating the use of the record button (the only thing that changed between 1.3 and 2.0.1 for customers who bought units that shipped with software prior to 2.0. We did not really mean to change that functionality. We do apologize for the inconvenience this caused for the time it takes to get the new software out.
In 2.5, with no service, on boxes that were purchased with a software release prior to 2.0, pressing the record button will record for 30 minutes, and then stop. Nothing else should change in the no-service-state."
Joseph Elwell.
Philips != Tivo.
Tivo pays Philips to manufacure Tivo units. Tivo makes no money on hardware sales. Their entire business model is based on the subscriptions services.
Frankly I agree. Although I appreciate the fact that doing so will harm the environment that the Tivo exists within - DVR manufacturers et al will be less prone to make their systems easy to get into - if someone is still interested in doing so, it's their right to and it's perfectly reasonable.
If Tivo wants people to use their service, they need to make it worthwhile. Not effectively manditory.
-- This and all my posts are in the public domain. I am a lawyer. I am not your lawyer, and this is not legal advice.
No, I mean that their service must be better on its own merits than a competing compatable service. Particularly if the competitor scores a big win by having it be free. (as in the case of a hack for the Tivo that lets it get info from many various free sources on the net)
Threatening more or less to deny the ability to do such things in the future if they're done at all is not a merit.
-- This and all my posts are in the public domain. I am a lawyer. I am not your lawyer, and this is not legal advice.
Until then, whatever legal immunities they might have, they have a moral obligation to make the devices work for all customers.
Companies have no "moral obligations" - their only true obligation is to their shareholders, and their obligation to them is to make money.
I would agree that legally, they are required to make the unit function as advertized for all users, else they could face a false advertizing lawsuit.
Just my 2 bits =)
As I understand it, TiVo (the company) gets very little in return for the hardware you buy. Their bread 'n butter comes from selling the listing service. To boot, they give you upgrades once in a while.
Being a programmer myself, I can see how and why some of this functionality disappeared. The new OS/app improved the record-button functionality by allowing you to pick up the current buffer, but it needs to know when the program started in order to do that. When you've got a project manager breathing down your neck, you've got to cut some corners. If I were looking to cut a corner or two, I'd drop support for the freloaders.
I sympathize with the time-setting issue, though. There should be an option to manually adjust the time, and I don't think they should have upgraded your unit if you hadn't subscribed to the service (heck, they wasted even more dial-up time on you to send down the bits).
On the other hand, they're still stuck supporting the OS when people call in (regardless of whether they paid for the service or not). It's expensive to support multiple versions of a product. Plus, they probably want to drop support for transferring data to units with the older app at some point.
For what it's worth, I'm a happy TiVo owner. My VCR is collecting dust, and I never worry about racing home to catch a program that I really like. There's something to be said for that, "don't be a slave to your TV" campaign they ran. Then again, I spend a lot of time saying, "Ack! I have to watch this soon or it's going to disappear!"
Play...watch TV for hours...grow more fat...Okay, so maybe I'm still a slave to the tube. But it's more fun now.
-Scott Hutton
So the manual says:
It says that the service can be changed. But if I am not a subscriber, I don't use the service. In this case, they are changing my hardware. That I purchased. They can completely rewrite the service, and it should never effect someone who is not subscribed.This space for rent. Call 1-800-STEAK4U
This space for rent. Call 1-800-STEAK4U
Hahaha, nice use of whois. Fortunately that number is not mine anymore, so your troll won't work very well.
Being heavily into the TiVo underground scene (tivo.lightn.org), I thought I'd share some information about the situation.
While I am generally a supporter of TiVo, I have to agree with this guy. TiVo stated that TiVos that upgraded from 1.3 to 2.0 would still be able to manually record shows (boxes that ship with 2.0 are limited to the 30 minute buffer period). While this was technically true, they certainly downgraded functionality that people paid for.
The one touch recording was supposedly removed because it was causing confusion since it would just automatically start recording that 30 min block. So it wasn't too useful to begin with, but certainly useful in certain situations.
I think the now playing changes are the most significant, as they represent a direct effort to remove functionality from 1.3 software.
The "nag screen" is not new. Few people on the avsforum new about it in the beginning when everyone subscribed, but when it came to people's attention, there was some heated debate, with me against TiVo. I never felt they gave an adequate responce to how having a nag screen makes the subscription to the service completely "optional."
The backdoor to the 1.3 software is known and the method to set the clock is also, although it is certainly not user friendly. Check tivo.samba.org (I think the input format is the same as the date command arguement).
Downgrading is impossible short of a complete backup of the Tivo harddrive. The database format and structure has changed and there is no easy way back. Although a lot of people did backups when they upgraded their tivo's hard drive. Just don't restore from an image from another brand or to a lesser version of software than the tivo shipped with! And some people are working on being able to do a complete drive setup on any sized disk from scratch.
There is a EULA in the manual, but I think it only applies when you subscribe to the service. The same debate about loss of functionality was made when people saw of the changes in 2.0 as negative (no matter how minor). The general consensus was that TiVo couldn't support multiple versions economically, so if you subscribed to the service you had to accept the changes in functionality that came with software upgrades. This situation is certainly less clear...
Also, it is general held that until recently (and maybe still), TiVo paid manufactures a certain amount of money for each box sold. And they certainly spend a lot to obtain each user (advertising money, check the financial reports). Most of their income comes from subscription fees. To some that just indicates a bad business model and they won't care, others might.
But in the meantime, TiVo is one of the only companies (as well as one of the first) to deliver such a product. Thanks to my TiVo, I can watch decent TV whenever I want, instead of being tied to a schedule. I tell it what I want to watch, and it records it, in return for $9.95/mo.
I'm more than happy to pay for this service, and TiVo is more than happy to provide it. Why do you feel compelled to be so vengeful against TiVo? If you think it's a bad model, more power to you. Noone forced you to buy it.
If someone comes along and cobbles something together that grabs TV listings off the net, then more power to them. But in the meantime I'm glad that TiVo exists to provide me with this service.
Only on slashdot can a posting be rated "Score -1, Insightful".
So when I bring my Ford Taurus in for servicing and the tech replaces one of the on board computers so that it shuts down the engine if any subsequent servicing is performed at any place other than a dealership....Well that's just my reward for ignoring the invisible free hand of commerce...
Please remember Einstein that AT&T was and IBM was nearly broken up for behavior like this - the hard coupling of hardware and service and software.
The TiVo doesn't allow access to the MPEG stream though, it's played out through an analog connector and stored on a proprietary filesystem. No DMCA issues there, although those folks that insist on finding a way to offload the MPEG streams will probably be making slashdot headlines.
- MbM
- MbM
Yes, but much of the information is stored on a proprietary filesystem known as MFS (media file system). It's complicated by the fact the standard scripts only allow upgrades, not downgrades (hence why TiVo refused to reload the 1.3 software).
The proceedure for restoring the old software isn't easy, it's still on the disk but you need some means of accessing it. For those not familiar with the TiVO it goes something like this:
The tivo has a connector on the back for interfacing a DSS satellite system, with the addition of a null modem adapter a user can access the PROM menu and change configutation data like the kernel bootup params. The 1.3 startup scripts used to have a backdoor -- bash would be run if you added the variable shondss=true (sh on dss port) to the kernel commandline. Unfortunately that's one of the things they remove in the new software. Bugger.
Ok we'll boot the 1.3 root partition, just a change of root= right? nope. The UI is loaded on the MFS and the supporting applications on the root filesystem, mixing and matching them can cause real trouble. Ok, let's not start the UI, let's set 'runmyworld=false'.
So now we've altered the root=, added shondss=false and runmyworld=false and we finally have a bash prompt. What now? well now we have to remove the new version of the software via tivosh (a convoluted shell built around tcl).. I won't even get into that mess.
Oh.. one other thing, the database format used on the MFS partition has changed between 1.3 and 2.0. I'm not aware of how much has changed, it may only be portions used by the subscription in which case you could revert.
At any rate attempting to revert the softare would void your warranty and possibly screw up your tivo. Fun huh?
- MbM
- MbM
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There are lots of people who would have
bought one of these things (like me) who
won't now (like me) because of this.
I hope it's way more than just a class-action
suit. I hope they broke some international law
by screwing up the Canadians, and have to pay
billions in fines or their CEO has to do hard time, or something like that. If the extortion
claim is brought up, I think they can be prosecuted under RICO.
Wish I could just make my regular linux box
be a PVR.
Tivo is too new on the scene to be arrogant enough to create this kind of PR. And the
messages from the Tivo spokesman only confirm
that they do mean to be assholes about the whole
thing.
Peasants, please storm their castle.
-fb Everything not expressly forbidden is now mandatory.
The article, and many responses clearly state that the TiVo advertisied the service as optional. hmmmm, odd that all the TiVo boxes have a BIG UGLY STICKER on them saying "TiVo Service REQUIRED". (then again, you trolls will say sue them for false advertising since it will work w/o service. sigh.)
Windows
1. Asus Digital VCR
2. Cyberlink PowerVCR II - My favorite.
3. ATI Raedon Digital VCR
Some Unix ones I found.
1. WebVCR - needs Video4Linux
2. vcr - needs Video4Linux
3. FFMpeg - Comes with a software vcr
There's a LOT of FUD flying around this discussion, and really, I expected better from the Slashdot crowd. I own two TiVos, just having hooked up my second one yesterday, and the guy who submitted this story is not exactly an unbiased source of information.
First of all, why would you WANT to use your TiVo without the TiVo service? Even in version 1.3, that made the TiVo a slightly more annoying version of a VCR, sans video tape. A few features worked, but it's really not doing what it's intended to do. There are also other options besides paying $10/month, you can pay $99/year, or $249 for lifetime (of the unit) subscriptions to their service.
Second of all, how did he get the updated software, unless he was dialing in to TiVo? If he really wanted to use the box without TiVo service, why was he dialing in with the modem? If he was happy with his boat-anchor mode 1.3 box, why not just yank the modem cable out of the back? Why? Because he wanted the clock set by TiVo, so, he basically wanted to dial-in to their service for free. This costs TiVo money, of course, they don't make much (if anything) on the sale of a box, as the units are manufactured by Phillips or Sony, TiVo the company only makes money on the subscriptions.
It's not like TiVo came to his house, ripped open his box, and installed the software, NOR DO THEY DIAL IN TO YOUR BOX, which is a common misconception, for those of you who didn't read the article. Your TiVo will simply dial-in to the nearest UUNet access number with it's built-in modem. His box had to dial-in to get the software, and if he's dialing in, it's hard to blame TiVo.
There's a lot of good TiVo information on the AVSForum boards over at:
http://www.tivocommunity.com/
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When in danger or in doubt, run in circles, scream and shout. --Robert A. Heinlein
No, he could have set the clock himself, all he had to do was plug a serial line into the port on the back of the TiVo. I don't think that TiVo is obligated to provide you with a clock-setting feature, since you're obviously not interested in making the device function properly, because you're not using the service which usually accompanies the device.
It was ReplayTV that inserted the commercials during pause, not TiVo.
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When in danger or in doubt, run in circles, scream and shout. --Robert A. Heinlein
Sheesh. If you were seriously thinking about buying a TiVo without the subscription, then you are going to be wasting your money anyway.
Yes, unless you get the lifetime subscription, it is $10/month. Unless your time is worth nothing to you, then the it is well worth the price.
My TiVo has allowed me to watch what I want, when I want. I consider it to be one of my best purchase decisions... ever.
So instead of spending time bashing a product that you haven't really tried out, why don't you go talk to a friend that has one (and has the subscription)?
So much effort is spent by corporations to try to get me to buy things I don't want and I don't need. TiVo is one of the few companies that actually turns out a useful product and service.
So what if they messed up the features for people who don't have a subscription? Perhaps they made a mistake, perhaps it was intentional. It doesn't really matter to me and the other TiVo subscribers. If you bought the device thinking it would be greatly useful without the service then you were misled. Maybe they are to blame for that too.
AC, please post a link directly to an AVS forum message where TiVolutionary claims to be the CEO.
To continue with a retarded car analogy... If a car manfact. decided that they should put a safety valve on a fuel injector because ppl were pushing the car above the safety limits the wheels (or any other arbitrary mechanical part) were tested for, you cant claim they are infringing on your rights. They are covering their ass. Whether you think that it is a direct attack on a feature you like or not, is irrelevant. You know it's not your decision, and therefore, your outrage is simply misdirected.
Often wrong but never in doubt.
I am Jack9.
Everyone knows me.
Often wrong but never in doubt.
I am Jack9.
Everyone knows me.
I dont see anyone bitching when someone builds a better birdhouse and it isnt what you think is better.
Are people going to complain BMW is infringing on their rights when they come out with a combined muffler-catalytic_convertor, that you have to replace as a large (read:expensive) single part...and this part will be standard issue for all future BMW's and you wont be able to buy the old part from BMW anymore? "But I used to be able to replace the muffler and convertor separately...and my dad says you used to be able to pull the platinum plate from the convertor so you didnt have to replace the whole convertor either."
BR It's rediculous to say that something you pay for is forever yours if it doesnt exist in a vacuum. You use their service, you know they can change your software, you live with that. Or you could always try to install an old catalytic convertor and muffler separately in the sanctuary of your own garage. Just dont let the smog guys test it.
Often wrong but never in doubt.
I am Jack9.
Everyone knows me.
Often wrong but never in doubt.
I am Jack9.
Everyone knows me.
Um, no. If the unit is unsubbed, it's not calling. You think an unsubbed unit should be calling in and tieing up lines and downloading software if you're not paying for the service? I don't think so. If you're not paying for the service, unplug it from the phone line and don't expect any software upgrades. It's not too hard a concept to grasp.
There is a terms of service agreement with the TiVo units. Just because the story submitter says he didn't remember clicking any EULA doesn't mean there wasn't one.
Read the manual that came with it and you'll see TiVo was and is within their rights to do this.
If you had read my post I acknowleged that much has been done. But also, tvio has removed all those nice things they "supplied" to allow hacking with the 2.x upgrade. (the shell via the serial port is now gone. A hacker outside the company figured out how to get into it again during the boot-up sequence.) Sorry, that might have been their direction at the beginning, but it is obviously not the case now. One simple update and they can even remove the extra hard drive space from hacked units.... It's a matter of time until they do. The only way I would believe otherwise is a public announcement from them that they will not lock out hackers/ hacked units and will refund 100% to all hackers if they do... (which will never ever happen, they want the option to lock us out.)
Do not look at laser with remaining good eye.
Actually they are.. If this was done after the sale. If I was sold a car that produced (say for conversation sake) 20,000 Foot pounds of torque (Damn fast car!) and then without my say-so or knowlege put in a limiter that reduced that to a safe 3,000 Foot pounds.. That is illegal. It is significantly modifying the vehicle's specifications, I no longer have what I was sold.
If it was to reduce it by 3-5%, barely noticeable, then I would agree.... but tvio did not change anything to a tiny extent. they performed major modifications.
Do not look at laser with remaining good eye.
So why hasn't someone hacked the tvio to change what phone number it dials/use the serial port for updates, and write a simple server in perl to gather this information off of the net for free? it can't be that hard to do (I'd do it if I had a tvio and a subscription, but I refuse to have my tv viewing habits sold to every corperate peeping-tom that is willing to ante up for tvio-s peepshow.) This thing can be hacked/reverse engineered easily. Hell, someone already got an ethernet card stuffed into the thing.
Time to tell tvio that these units are OURS, and we are going to do with them what we damn well want to. (Note, some people will whine that we will be putting tvio out of business...wahh bla.. only the technically savvy will be avoiding the tvio tax and tactics.... the normal drone (90% of their customer base) doesn't have the brain-power to set up a linux box, let alone open a tvio and sucessfully hack it.)
Do not look at laser with remaining good eye.
Pretty retarted example there, Here's a better one.
Would you be happy if BMW, on a "free safety check" at the dealer, removed your tachometer and the FM radio band from your radio? you'd be screaming bloody murder and looking for heads. In your screaming you find out that this only happens to people who dont pay for the extra protection coverage package that includes the on-star (Or whatever company you use) monthly fees.
But this is EXACTLY what tvio did. They removed features from the unit that were there at the time of sale. If you are sold something and then get something that is not what you sold them, then the US govt will force you to pay restitution or make it right. HP had to give thousands of US customers all their money back on the HP Journada 420 because the display wasn't a true 16 bit display (it was 12 bit) and 99% of all these customers couldn't tell the difference. TVIO just removed features that many people noticed right away, and I smell a class action lawsuit coming...... and TVIO will lose if it comes to it.
So sorry, TVIO effectively entered the customers homes and stole property, until they return it and apologize they are liable.
Do not look at laser with remaining good eye.
Then buy a DirecTivo and get lifetime TiVo service for $249. It'll run you $650 or so, but it's not such a bad deal for (effectively) two DirecTV receivers and two VCR's in one box... (No, you can't use the second tuner yet, but it will be enabled this summer.)
Don't buy UltimateTV; they don't have a lifetime service option and you'll be paying monthly fees to them forever.
Deven
"Simple things should be simple, and complex things should be possible." - Alan Kay
As for why he had it plugged into the phone: well, its his system dammit, and he can do what he wants with it!
He. Called. Them. Up.
He wanted others to spend money to give him something for free, and now it has bit him. Boo hoo.
Exactly! TiVO chose to "upgrade" his system even though he is not a subscriber. He did not!
As a Lifetime subscriber, I'm annoyed that they are wasting time and money supporting deadbeats, making it easier for TiVo to go out of business and my losing my subscription money. On the other hand, if they are going to support deadbeats, having them run the latest software is surely the cheaper solution.
If he was a hacker instead of a script kiddy, then he would have gone to the tivo-hacker sites, and figured out how to set the time himself.
Me? I look forward to buying new TiVo hardware in a year or so, and hacking the old box.
I find this whole debate funny as it is so typical for the USA. To illustrate, I have a (digital) TV from Thomson [a French TV manufacturer] hooked up to a Sony VCR through means of a SCART cable. My TV supports showing the TV guide as well, but it grabs that from the CEEFAX/Teletext/Teletekst pages [which you can manually set/configure]. Aside from this it also gets the clock synced with the clock from the Teletext. When you're looking at the programmes' overview you can select one and opt to record it, the TV and VCR will work out the details through their SCART link. Also, if you change config on your TV wrt channels it will sync this with the VCR. Who needs a TiVo when you got set-ups like this?
Jeroen Ruigrok/Asmodai
SO how does this releate to TIVO? Simple once you buy the TIVO, the VCR, the video disk, the cassette tape, the cdrom, or whatever you are basically agreeing by your usage of the item to biug business telling you what to do with it. This happens in the record industry (napster, you can't trade what you own), AT&T Cable, I can't filter out the ads in the tv guide, TIVO you are stuck with their upgrade. This is the same as if your ISP changed its policy on how it billsyou. Your only repercussion would be to stop using the device.
This is the new age of big business doing what it wants and screw the consumer.. didn't you know that? Microsoft is growing and growing, AOL is too, AT&T.. PG&E in CA is getting what they want.. and do you know who has to pay the most? The residential customers... who pays the least... other companies (Oh and if you don't know what I am talking about think energy crisys in ca)..
Yeah this may be slighly off topic, but tivo is just another company that thinks it can screw the user just like any other big company....
I don't want a lot, I just want it all!
Flame away, I have a hose!
Only 'flamers' flame!
I agree with your point, but not your example. "Piracy" would occur if someone illegally redistributed the TiVo code. If you were unauthorized to connect and download the upgrade, it might be considered unauthorized access of computer resources ("hacking"). But since the TiVo was automatically authorized by the TiVo folks to get the upgrade, they can hardly say they didn't want it to happen and come after you for it.
It's just like deep linking - if you don't want me to get information from you, don't give it to me. You can't freely give me things when I ask, and then complain that I was somehow unauthorized to have them.
Caution: contents may be quarrelsome and meticulous!
Your right to not believe: Americans United for Separation of Church and
OK, the part about "BillG just feels like making you say Uncle" may have been untrue, but on the other hand it was pretty funny and in line with Microsoft SOP. Heaven forbid we judge them on the basis of their past track record or anything.
Caution: contents may be quarrelsome and meticulous!
Your right to not believe: Americans United for Separation of Church and
You could make the argument that the TV broadcasters have a copyright over the whole broadcast, including both commercials as well as programming. To play a derivative of this copyrighted work (that is, to leave out the commercials) might be construed as a copyright violation.
IANAL, but I could see how someone who is might take up this argument.
Caution: contents may be quarrelsome and meticulous!
Your right to not believe: Americans United for Separation of Church and
Wow, you didn't preview that one at all, did you :)
Caution: contents may be quarrelsome and meticulous!
Your right to not believe: Americans United for Separation of Church and
...but are the listings copyrighted material?
If not, isn't that a requirement before the DMCA can be invoked?
± 29 dB
This is a good idea, but please don't call it "OpenTivo." That's just begging for a trademark suit. Coming up with an original name shouldn't overtax anyone's creativity.
---
As copyright owner of this comment, I authorize everyone to defeat any technological measure which limits access to it.
He bought a product that runs a cron script (or something like that) that connects to the Tivo servers and does things, which includes downloading updates. He knew that the product does this.
If your box connects to my server on a regular basis and request software and then downloads and executes it, and you even know that your box does this, then the "without authorization" condition has just gone out the window.
Secondly, most of the changes don't qualify as "intentionally causes damages", although I think the nag-when-switching-channels is pretty intentional. The other changes (e.g. not showing the manual record times) are just user interface mods where the "damage" to non-subscribers might just be unforseen.
---
As copyright owner of this comment, I authorize everyone to defeat any technological measure which limits access to it.
DMCA doesn't outlaw all RE where encryption is involved. It outlaws RE where encryption "effectively controls access" to a copyrighted work.
In the context of writing a Tivo server emulator, what copyrighted works are protected here? Packets of usage statistics that were generated by the Tivo? The time of day, generated by the server? Get real.
DMCA does not prevent writing a Tivo server.
---
As copyright owner of this comment, I authorize everyone to defeat any technological measure which limits access to it.
www.snapstream.com
There is no linux version at present, but they are open to suggestion.
I use it on my windows box. Does the trick!
The secret of success is honesty and fair dealing. If you can fake those, you've got it made. (Marx)
don't you have to sign a contract to make it legally binding?
No. That's a basic principle of contract law. As long as the four elements of a contract exist, (a meeting of the minds or an agreement, consideration, mutual performance and an offer an acceptance) there is a contract. An example would be if your neighbor says that he would pay you $1,000 if you mowed his lawn and you got out your lawn mower and cut his grass, there would be a legally enforcable contract even though you signed no paper. There was an agreement (as to the work and the consideration), consideration ($1,000), mutual performance (each side has a responsibility to fufill -- you cut, him pay $1,000) and offer and acceptance (your behavior in performing the requested work is evidence of acceptance).
I have discovered a truly marvelous sig, unfortunately the sig limit is too small to contain i
It's a module. Linus has specifically allowed the distribution and use of closed source, binary kernel modules.
I have discovered a truly marvelous sig, unfortunately the sig limit is too small to contain i
Replay TV could be what you wanted in the first place, it offers all the functionality of a non-subscriptioned Tivo, and *NO* monthly fees. Mines been working great, never a nag, and changing channels doesn't plug it's own services charges...
I'm working on this exact thing at the moment-- I've managed to get xawtv to display output from my cheapo hauppage winTV capture card, so that's a start.
.wav file for audio. Supposedly it integrates with mpeg2encode for realtime encoding straight to mpeg, but the docs don't describe what I would need to do to make bttvgrab aware of my mpeg2encode installation. If I can't make the realtime coder work, then I will do scheduled post-encoding. The problem then means I have to figure out how to multiplex the audio and video back together, something else I'm not sure how to do with most of the encoders. (again, mpeg2encode seems to do it, but I'll be darned if I've made sense of that program's 10 million config options yet...)
VCR looks like a good way to go (and WebVCR is just a frontend to VCR) but it requires the avifile libraries, which are located on http://divx.euro.ru/ , a site which gives me a whopping 28 bytes per second. I've been trying for WEEKS to download the avifile libraries I would need to use VCR, but to no avail. I can't find a mirror, either-- if anybody's got one, post away!!!!
FAME looks good to-- it takes video4linux output and uses an assembly encoder to make short work of compressing it. This could be run via cron, if only I could get it to compile on my Mandrake 8.0 install.
FFMpeg, SAMPEG, and MPEG2Encode all have promise, too, but again, one problem or another is keeping me from getting them to run. MPEG2Encode is compiled and appears to be working, but it has to be the most complicated encoder I've ever used in my life. If anyone has a good sample config file handy for NTSC VCD and SVCD bitrate encoding with MPEG2Encode, let me know.
And lastly, bttvgrab is working too, but it dumps to a wacky format (.pmm?) and a separate
So, in short, there are nearly a dozen programs for linux to do exactly this, but like everything else fun with linux, putting it all together is going to be a challenge. Anybody with more information, please post!!!!!!
Don't you just love how the DMCA answers all these confusing legal questions? It's so convenient.
--
There are no trails. There are no trees out here.
The moderators don't work for TiVo.
FP
"Tell me doctor, with all of your defenses, are there any provisions for an attack by killer bees?"
They also don't moderate for TiVo. The AVSForums are completely independent. It's a fan-site.
FP
"Tell me doctor, with all of your defenses, are there any provisions for an attack by killer bees?"
You CAN'T pause, rewind, and resume live TV, but you CAN do a lot of other "tivo-like" things...
It records on standard VHS tapes, but you stick a special label on the tapes. A magentic/RF loop stores extra info in a chip in the label. Admittedly the label costs a little more than the tape did, but on the other hand you can buy hundreds of tapes and hundreds of labels and they're far easier to "install" than bigger hard drives.
You set the timer manually, optionally using VideoPlus+ codes - not as cool as tivo, but cheaply/freely available on various TV guides on the 'net or on dead tree.
When it records, regardless of whether the timer was set manually, using VideoPlus+, pressing the "record" button, or using the "record record record" thing to record for 30m, 1h, 1h30, etc... when it records, it checks teletext to see what programme it's recording, and makes a note of this on the SmartFile label.
Here's the cool bit... Wave a tape in front of the machine, and the RF loop checks the contents of the tape, and a list of the tape's contents is shown on screen - date, and programme name (or times if teletext was unhelpful / unavailable). Wrong tape? grab the next one in your collection and wave that. Got the right tape now? Stick it in the machine, press the "smartfile" button, choose the programme off the menu, and it'll rewind of fastforward to the right place and play away.
Don't want to keep a programme any more? press SmartFile, choose the programme, press Clear, and it won't be physically DELETED from the tape, but it'll be marked as blank space. when you're later looking for a tape with enough space to record tonight's film, you can wave tapes in front of the machine and it'll tell you the longest contiguous section of "blank" space on that tape.
OK... so it's not as cool as "tivo with subscription". You can't pause and resume live TV, you can't "buy a season pass", it won't automatically record stuff it thinks you'll like, you have to manually set the timer. You can't INSTANTLY seek to, and start playing, a programme, but it's pretty damned fast, and of course storage space is limited only by how much you want to spend on VHS tapes and SmartFile labels. SmartFile VCRs are also considerably cheaper than TiVO.
Disclaimer: TECHNICALLY I'm biassed, because I work for (a very different part of) Sony... OTOH you're probably biassed too, because Sony are members of RIAA and MPPA and they fake movie reviews :-) I'm writing this as a satisfied owner, not a Sony employee, honest!
Nick Waterman, Sr Tech Director, #include <stddisclaimer>
That would be true, IF this was only a matter of what the service permitted.
This actually disabled *features* of the TiVO you purchased, and has nothing to do with the 'services' you get through subscription (listings, etc).
The box, all by itself, now does LESS than it did BEFORE, all by itself.
That's gotta be illegal.
I really don't care what TiVo expected people to do. They sold a product that (as advertised) would work without a subscription. They're later going back and crippling that product, so that it no-longer works without subscription.
That's bait and switch, and is illegal. Plain and simple.
As a side note, I see great value in a tivo without listings, it's a VCR, except higher quality and of larger capacity. They advertised it as such, but with more features as well. I currently use a VCR, so a digital VCR would be a great purchase.
Now, as for poor TiVo, who we're supposed to feel so sorry for... Tough.
As a programmer I'm still supporting much of my early work. It needs more bugfixing and I negotiated worse contracts (less pay for fixing those bugs). But I *can't* ignore those unprofitable contracts. I entered into them honestly, they are the stepping stones that got me where I am today, and I'm legally and morally obligated to continue doing what I contracted to do.
I may not understand why some of my customers still prefer to use software I wrote in the late 80s, but I didn't sell it to them with a time limit, they're free to do what they will do.
So, understandably, I have little sympathy for TiVo. They're where they are today because they sold a ton of units, many to people who simply wanted a digital VCR. It is NOT acceptable to hang those customers out to dry now.
Especially since, if they wanted to have them stop calling in, they could simply allow for manual setting of the time and remove the nag screens, then people could happily use their units in the manner they intended, without any phone calls or future software updates.
This is actually worse than I stated, TiVo didn't just ignore old customers, they deliberately went out of their way to disable those old units that were functioning correctly.
And they act as if it's the customers fault, for buying a product and expecting it to work as advertised.
Companies have the same moral obligations as the shareholders. And vice versa.
This whole limited-liability bullshit has gone too far. Many people would be perfectly happy buying stock in a company that contracted killings for the mob, as long as they wouldn't be held liable and as long as they thought it was profitable.
Explain why customers, who can't buy a senator and get a law passed, should follow the laws that companies buy. Law and the society it enables are based on the expectation of fairness, the law is blind and all that. If the law works in your favour, why would I follow it?
This is made worse by companies with 'no moral obligation' in the eyes of their stockholders corrupting our legal system for a quick buck.
They clearly did NOT (note, past tense) that the service was required. That's a recent change. Customers who bought original units were assured they'd work without the service - they even sold to people in Canada and other unsupported areas, which should prove that they intended this.
TiVo units contain a hardware bug where they lose time at aproximately a minute per month, there is no way to set this except by dialing in, which was allowed even for unsubscribed people.
The unit is broken (bad clock) and short of a recall, the best bet is to have them automatically update the time frequently. This is TiVos fault and their fiscal responsibility, imho.
As for this whole idiotic business model of selling for a los... It's TiVo's choice to do so, and it's their choice to require a contract or not. They didn't require a contract for services in the beginning, so people fairly bought those units wanting only the hardware.
The law only insists that each side in a contract get something, not that it ends up being profitable for both parties.
Would you accept it if you bought a P3-1Ghz with 1GB of RAM and 150GB of drive space for $1200, then had the company give you a P2-500 with 64MB because "you should have known that is was unreasonable to expect that much for that price" and that when you complained they told you to quit whining, or they'd disable the computer all-together?
So they made a deal that wasn't terribly profitable, they'll do better next time, or someone else will. Not my problem.
I know you're just answering the "do I need to sign" but what you just said shows that shrink-wrap contracts aren't valid...
1) There's no meeting of minds because this implies knowledge beforehand.
2) There's no consideration. They aren't legally entitled to prevent you from using the software, so they can't offer it to you.
As soon as you buy something, you've got 100% rights to use it in any way it was advertised, or a reasonable person would believe it should be usable. (to paraphrase the law)
Exelent. So when I sell you a pack of gum that has a license inside that lets me break into your house to take a piece whenever I want, is that ok?
I mean, im within my rights if I decide that you initally paid to little for the pack of gum, and I want to remove 5 sticks by your logic.
I figure youre a troll, but what the hell. Trolls like gum.
All Troll + "offtopic" mods are meta moderated as "Unfair", because you abused the system.
What value added? People don't have to pay $10/month for their VCRs to work because the embedded firmware "adds value" to the otherwise useless hardware - the software is part of the product itself.
As you pointed out, people DO already pay for the internet, where the TV guide information they want is freely available... so why should they ALSO have to pay Tivo?
I predict Tivo willl fall by the wayside unless it changes, and the winner will be a PVR that simply connects to your ISP (dial-up or broadband via ethernet port) and gets the information for free, or maybe one that doesn't even need it to provide most of what people want - TV pause/resume/skip and manual programming (just tell it the show channel/time, and it'll record it forever until you tell it to stop).
The serial cable is only an option for hackers. From reading the AVS forum I thought the problem was that people were just doing a call (or is a "test call" different?) to get the date, but then - without being a subscriber - they were getting the 2.0 software automatically and then losing functionality (although I guess they allowed it to continue downloading because they thought they were getting something for free).
-)>
Later tonight I will visit the homes of all pro-TiVO stealth software upgrade people.
I have a contract with the automakers to "upgrade" your automobiles ... you will now be limited to 6.9 miles/hour and 6.9 miles/gallon. The reason I will do this is that the automakers have decided to implement a "subscription" model of service.
<-(>
Maintain a questioning attitude
I believe Juanita
-)>
Later tonight I will visit the homes of all pro-TiVO stealth software upgrade people.
I have a contract with the automakers to "upgrade" your automobiles ... you will now be limited to 6.9 miles/hour and 6.9 miles/gallon. The reason I will do this is that the automakers have decided to implement a "subscription" model of service.
We know you "own" the automobile (hardware). We just want to force you to "subscribe" so that you have the same level of functionality you had when you bought the automobile (hardware)
<-(>
Maintain a questioning attitude
I believe Juanita
Later tonight I will visit the homes of all pro-TiVO stealth software upgrade people.
I have a contract with the automakers to "upgrade" your automobiles ... you will now be limited to 6.9 miles/hour and 6.9 miles/gallon. The reason I will do this is that the automakers have decided to implement a "subscription" model of service.
We know you "own" the automobile (hardware). We just want to force you to "subscribe" so that you have the same level of functionality you had when you bought the automobile (hardware)
<-(>
Maintain a questioning attitude
I believe Juanita
Warning: Off-topic...
"Busineses don't get special treatment under contract law. They're just parties, like individuals are."
That's exactly the problem. The reason that corporations are running roughshod over individuals is because they have the same rights as us, but scads more money.
I, for one, don't see any good reason that a corporation needs the same rights as me. Corporate america today seems like a bully who's too big for you to fight, and who relies on the fact that you're too scared to report him.
---------
---------
Get back to me when my brain starts working.
From reading this, it seems that he just bought the thing. (Sort of... it's not entirely clear.)
If it was still within the n-days return period, I say take it back, complain it doesn't work as advertised. Then buy another one if you still feel like it.
THEN (now that you've learned your lesson), do some of the hacks described, and don't plug it into the evil phone line.
Personally, my view of Tivo, Inc. just went WAY down. They just scored a major win with the award of their patents, they're inches away from smacking Microsoft & Ultimate TV with an ugly stick... and they still feel they need to do this to their customers?
Bad Tivo. (Whack!) No stock options for you! Go sit in the corner until you learn to play nice!
(Still, just to be fair... didn't UltimateTV do some silliness like inserting ads while you're fast-forwarding? This was a change from out-of-box functionality... but not nearly as invasive as what Tivo has done!)
"...America's great minds of today, teaching America's great minds of tomorrow. Poor bastards." -- A Beautiful Min
I have absolutely no interest in paying a subscription fee for a directory service.
A "directory" is not sufficient. What TiVo provides is a database which combines show times, actors and directors involved (so you can record, e.g. "all Hitchcock movies"), user preferences and feedback and some interactive TV tie-ins (e.g. you can hit select during promotions for upcoming shows to select them for recordng).
I would really like a stand-along digital recorder that would record the raw MPEG-2 video/audio stream from a DirecTV receiver. I am willing to pay $500 for such a device, but I'm not willing to pay $15 (or more) each month just to use it.
TiVo costs $600 for unit plus lifetime subscription (lifetime of that unit, that is). A friend of mine said, "buy a TiVo, it will change your life." I said he was being silly. It's only TV after all. I hate to sound like the SNL skit about the mentalist on broadway, but buy a TiVo. It will change your life.
The features just keep getting better too. You can now start watching something, decide half-way through that you want to record it, and because TiVo has a half-hour buffer, you get the WHOLE THING. You can set priorities on season passes so that if they conflict, the conflicts are resolved according to your tastes. It's just too cool.
As I tell my friends: I don't watch TV anymore. My TiVo does it for me.
--
Aaron Sherman (ajs@ajs.com)
I don't have a TiVo (and now, never will)
Nothing personal, but this is the one aspect of Slashdot that I truely hate: the negative rumormongering.
As someone else pointed out in this thread, the TiVo folks have acknowledged this one as a bug, and are turning the feature back on in an update. It's a result of the addition of one of the most asked for features: saving the live-TV buffer when recording a program on the fly.
Note timed recording still worked just fine for non-subscription TiVos....
so perhaps I don't understand what "guide data" is. If it's essentially just TV listings, well, free sites for that abound on the Net. yahooTV, for one.
Sure, you can use those. It will be hard to split out the detailed information like actors and directors, but you could hit IMDB for that. The only thing you don't get is the database of user feedback for each of those programs. This is not just a rating system, but a personalized rating system. Thus, the TiVo can look at what you like and say: aha! You're going to like "Slashdot: The Motion Picture" too. And, then it will record it for you, if you have free space.
--
Aaron Sherman (ajs@ajs.com)
Even if this was a fluke, it shows me the danger inherent in becoming too used to any service over which I don't have control. As far as possible I avoid that, and so, TiVo is still out for me.
But that doesn't make any sense. Like TiVo, don't like TiVo -- I could care less, but the whole concern is over TiVo updating your box so that standalone features broke.
It's like saying that your VCR manufacturer gave you a prom-update that broke the VCR for people who don't use the prom-updates.
You only care if you sign up for the service, and then drop it. Given that the way to go with TiVo is to sign up for the lifetime membership, why the heck is this a concern?!
The only possible concern would be that you use their service and then they drop their privacy policy on the floor AND remove the opt-out features on the box AND you care (which I would). If that's your concern I suggest you buy a TiVo+service and don't throw away your VCR. Works for me....
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Aaron Sherman (ajs@ajs.com)
The problem is that TiVo's technology is only mildly interesting (though patented...)
What is really grabbing people about the TiVo is the combination of their technology with their centralized database of show times and preferences data. As digital VCRs go, the TiVo is only very cool. What makes it kick-ass is the ability to say "record everything directed by Hitchcock," or "record my favorite show whenever it happens to be on, but only the first-run showings."
In order to do this, you would have to have a quality source of guide data....
--
Aaron Sherman (ajs@ajs.com)
I believe this sort of software is also called 'fuckware'. I believe the meaning is clear.
--
Compainies do this kind of thing because many people are sheep and will actually fall for bogus claims of "reserved rights" and disclaimers for things that can't legally be disclaimed. The people who belive this garbage are throwing away their rights by being dumb enough to believe that those rights don't exist, simply because A Big Corporation told them so.
My advice: Don't be one of the sheep.
Easy, automatic testing for Perl.
...Tivo and Thinkgeek have an advertisement which is paying for their own defamation.
Or maybe there is no bad publicity?
http://ernie.eit.uni-kl.de/avifile/avifile-0.60.20 010429.tar.gz
helps?
If not, I'm trying to dload the one from the Russian site, but having the same throughput problems. If the above site isn't what you need, lemme know and I'll tell ya if/when the
http://divx.euro.ru/avifile-0.53.5.tar.gz
dload completes and I'll give ya FTP info.
KM
Kinda like Moe, but just a little more Kool
Hey!
/ cvsroot/avifile co avifile-0.6
i file/avifile-0.6/.
Also on the russian site, at the bottom it says this:
Recent development sources are also available in anonymous CVS at sourceforge.net:
$ cvs -z3 -d:pserver:anonymous@cvs.avifile.sourceforge.net:
(simply press enter when prompted for password).
Its CVSWeb interface address is http://cvs.sourceforge.net/cgi-bin/viewcvs.cgi/av
Kinda like Moe, but just a little more Kool
From the TiVo hacking FAQ:
:o)
--
1.4. Why is the TiVo hackable?
The biggest reason for this is that TiVo used Linux for their Operating System. Linux is an open source OS that is widely
available for many different platforms. The other reason is that TiVo uses standard off the shelf IDE hard drives. This
makes the hard drive upgrade easy since you can go to any computer shop and buy an IDE drive.
--
1.10. Can I hack my TiVo so I don't need a TiVo subscription?
NO NO NO. This is something that will NOT be explored. TiVo has been very gracious in not coming down on all this
hacking described in this FAQ and we will do nothing to harm that. Nothing will be looked at to get around the
subscription service so don't ask! Regardless your TiVo will function as a VCR already with manual record mode.
--
If you want the TiVo FAQ, it's not that hard to find (let's not Slashdot them with idle click-thrus).
Xix.
"Everything is adjustable, provided you have the right tools"
Looks like the word "protected" will let Tivo an easy way out. They could argue that if the user really was concerned about the integrity of his Tivo, he could easily have "protected" it by not plugging in the phone jack. He wasn't using their service after all, so then why would he need to be connected to the phone at all?
The ONLY way that TiVo makes money is through its subscription service.
What, they're not selling all that juicy viewing habits data they're gathering? Morons! That's were the real money is, and why TiVo expects users to pay for that data gathering (TV listings are free from a number of sources) is beyond me.
Still, if you expect to use your Tivo for more than two years, this is still a bargain.
Doesn't look that way to me. I jumped over to Yahoo and did some quick price comparisons, a 30-hour Tivo can be had for about $300, a 30-hour Panasonic Replay goes for about $430. The Replay comes out of the box with the lifetime sub, no additional fees to pay. So in essense the Replay subscription is half the price of Tivo's.
The major difference, of course, is that Tivo gives you a choice as to how you want to pay (lifetime vs monthly), Replay doesn't.
If you're going to get the lifetime sub you'll save money buying a Replay.
I don't believe you had to purchase the service at all. If you look in the forums I think you will see this happening to many people who have no subscription AT ALL ('unsubbed'). The ONLY thing they have done is make the "test call" to set their clocks on the unit because there is no way to do that manually. Sure you could blame them for buying a piece of equipment that only allows you to set the clock by making a call to the company...but that's really a stretch. That's almost entrapment. How should I know that just making a test call is going to result in *software being downloaded and installed* on my machine? Consumer's shouldn't have to be always on edge wondering if every little feature of something can potentially be used to scam them in the future.
"Batteries...sure, use any type you like. (BUT THEY'LL BLOW UP CAUSING YOU TO HAVE TO BUY A NEW UNIT HAHAHAHAHAHAHA)"
It's 10 PM. Do you know if you're un-American?
Well, the reason that I went with Tivo instead of Replay probably boils down to the fact that Tivo runs on Linux. I'm sorry to say that I didn't do enough investigation to see if Replay does too : (
Also, I thought I remembered that Replay didn't have the 'back 8 seconds instantly' button. I find myself using that so much to catch lines that I missed the first time, sometimes I find myself reaching for the remote at movies or with radio programs!
BTW, Tivo also offers lifetime memberships for $200, so with Replay you must get a lifetime subscription, whereas Tivo (until recently) at least offered the option of subscribing month-to-month. I say until recently because these practices being implemented in the new upgrade screw the guy who wants end his month-to-month subscription.
Oh yeah, just remembered - the fact that I could choose to pay month to month for the subscription on Tivo was part of my decision making process. Also that Tivo has so many big name corporate partners.
What kind of specs are available for the TiVo hardware, anyway?
------
Ditto.
Next project: Spend some time checking out the status of Linux drivers for my ATI All-in-Wonder-128 32M card.
And if that doesn't give me any love, install Windoze Scripting Host and goof around with VB for a weekend using the bundled software. I can capture and encode MPEG2 video in real time when the box is suitably overclocked. All that's missing is a 30G hard drive and a user interface.
A little bit of Perl (yeah, it'll run in a Windoze console too!) and a suitable lynx -dump to and I've got my TV listings.
"Basically Tivo wen't from being a cool company whose product I was thinking of buying to just another company whose product I will avoid."
Oh Horseshit.
The Tivo has been out for HOW long? If you've followed it at all, you've seen all the cool hacker upgrades you can do with it. So until now, a Tivo has been nothing but good.
And you still didn't buy one. You might have it on your fantasty list of things you want to buy, but the odds of you ACTUALLY buying one are nil.
Take your sour grapes elsewhere.
Democrats or Republicans. They are both taking us to the same place and they are not afraid of us anymore.
The one touch recording depends on you having guide data.
When your subscription runs out, a message will appear saying "hey, your subscription ran out!". This will appear for ~1 month if I remember right. During this time the tivo still functions and is downloading guide data.
After the month, the TiVo goes into boat anchor mode (ie: the unit is pretty useless; always has been, always will be when in this mode). It stops updating guide data and other related information until the subscription is removed.
After about two weeks your guide data will run out. So what's the point in having the recording function work when it's going to stop working in 2 weeks anyway?
Before you could record a half hour while watching tv. You can no longer do this. Whoppie do. Somehow I fail to see the severity of this loss.
You can still have manual recordings for an arbitrary length on arbitrary channels.
I like tetherware, because it seems apropriate, but it's obviously taken. So:
Leashware!
Slogan "Treating the customer like the dog that they are"
--Remove chicken to e-mail
Does anyone know of any good places to start looking? And no, goatse.cx is *not* a good starting place, even if that guy could hold eight nonremovable drives in there. :P
If I buy a cell phone, it is next to useless without a service subscription of some sort. If I buy a wireline phone, it is a paperweight without a service plan from my local telco. My DSL does me no good if there's not a DSLAM at the other end of the line. We buy things that need subscriptions all the time.
... so why was TiVo modifying their hardware?
All of that is true but the problem is that the TiVo ISN'T (!!!) useless without the subscription! However with the 'update' to the version 2 software TiVo have removed functionality from people they actually had nothing to do with. These are not subscribers, so, even according to TiVo, they are not their customers either
Besides, with digital TV/HDTV you really do want to get the original MPEG2 stream instead of decoding it once, and then encoded again when you record. Any set-top boxers/satellite recievers with firewire out?
I don't know about the availability of DVB (== Digital Video Broadcast, a standard developed and deployed in Europe for digital TV in MPEG-2 format) content in the U.S., but there are solutions available that do just that. Have a look at http://www.linuxtv.org or http://www.cadsoft.de/people/kls/vdr/
For my setup at home a guide is absolutely useless. I have cable, directv, C-Band (wildfeeds - no schedule available), 4DTV (Like directv on steroids), DVB/MPEG satellite (again no schedule possible), and Starchoice (Canadian DSS). (Everything legal and paid for). Since my TIVO has only one a/v input, I have a multi-position switchbox selecting what goes into my TiVo.
A guide would be useless because it would only cover one or two of my services (directv/cable) and the TiVo would have no way of knowing what my external switch had selected.
I knew this when I bought it, and made the choice to put up with the nag screen for the ability to now run through video tapes. (My wife refuses to re-record on video. She hates the quality degradation that even a second recording on a tape has.)
I set the clock by calling in once, when I bought the unit. Then I unplugged the phone jack.
If it's worth doing, it's worth doing for money.
Although some might contest this is a bait and switch (albeit delayed a bit), its probably legal, although unethical. The idea that they got you to buy a tivo when a subscription wasnt required, and then took the features away after you had paid for it just another example of the American Way(TM) of doing things. Get people addicted to it, then rape thier wallets, because its not the consumers that matter, its the shareholders.
The Doormat
If you're not outraged, then you're not paying attention.
Well go on. Nobody is stopping you and we'll all cheer from the sidelines. But don't send me betas, I'd like the 1.0 (1.1 would be even better) version.
So? How long could it take? Hours? A weekend?
Because the market is letting them. The consumer base has spoken with their dollars, and they've said that this sort of setup works just great for them.
If change is to come, it needs to come in the form of an alternative that consumers like better, or for the consumer base to decide that this sort of scheme makes the product worth less than what they paid -- and they'll abandon the idea wholesale.
When you sell to non-geeks, geek concerns fall by the wayside. Geeks are still a minority (and probably always will be).
Actually, Bruce Tognazzini wrote an article about this same issue not too long ago on his popular AskTog site. This issue is not new to the TiVo, RePlay (which markets a TiVo-like product) just did similar things to all their customers.
The article really makes some excellent points regarding software downgrades and manufacturer responsibilities.
So, the difference between a software upgrade and a virus would be.... what... something you want vs. something you don't want?
That's like saying that the definition of a 'weed' is a plant that grows where you DON'T want it to.
-- You can't idiot-proof anything, because they're always coming out with better idiots.
- it will probably come with the new "improved" software only
Correct. All the new units should come with 2.0 on them. And they certainly will not work without a subscription.- they sold these things.
Actually, Philips, Sony, and Hughes sell the hardware. TiVo sells the software (aka "the service".) Pay attention to the name of the product... "Philips Personal Video Recorder with TiVo Service" You own the hardware, but you do not own the software on the drive (or any of the content of MFS -- backgrounds, fonts, sounds, etc.) TiVo is well within their legal rights to do what ever they want to the software. Please keep in mind this nut left it plugged into the phone line calling into UUNet and thus costing TiVo money while paying nothing. - ... gain unauthorised access
...
Right. First, the TiVo is not a "computer" in that sense. Second, how can it be claimed to be unauthorized access when it called tivo and did exactly what it was designed to do (and likely had done before)? He plugged it into the phone line knowing it's going to call TiVo everyday. Unsubscribed units do get upgrades -- though they will be the last to get it. And if he bothered to look, you certainly can set the date manually.This is not a mistake. It's not an accident. The 2.0 software was intentionaly designed to be a pain in the ass without a subscription. TiVo doesn't make anything off the sale of the hardware -- they sell the "with TiVo Service" part. Everyone of those boxes will try to call TiVo everyday (if it cannot call in for several days, a watchdog reboots the box) either via the 800# -- which costs tivo in the neighborhood of 5 to 7 cents a minute -- or by a local UUNet modem pool which certainly costs TiVo money. They are not likely to change their stance on this. They are also moving to make it harder and harder for people to hack the hardware -- a PROM with a crypto signature on the kernel + initrd image, an initrd image with copies of core files which it will replace if changed, no more "shondss", etc.
And, the TiVo is much more than a TV listing as found "in the Sunday paper." (Last time I checked, the sunday paper was far from free.)
Wow. I couldn't agree with you more.
Tivo is the best hing to happen to the TV since the VCR and the company is struggling.
It's amazing how people can actually complain when they're too cheap to simply pay the fee most of us to get the product as it is intended to function.
But if he was not a subscriber, then why did he use their service to set his unit's clock?
Furthurmore, you have totally missed the point of my post. Let me try again:
I go down to the local DratShack and buy a new phone. The PFY behind the counter tries to sell me a service plan.
Me: No, I do not wish a service plan. I just want a phone.
PFY: But without a service plan, you cannot place nor receive calls.
Me: I'm too cheap to pay for a service plan. I want to be able to call 911, for which the phone does not need to have a service plan. Furthurmore, when I go on trips, I will buy a cheap prepaid phone card so that I may place calls during my trip.
PFY: OK, but you might not be able to get firmware updates without a service plan.
Me: Over-the-air updates don't bother me. Sell me the damn phone!
PFY: OK, but this could bite you.
Now, other than the obvious fact that this account is fictional (the PFY knows far too much to be working at DratShack), this is exactly what this gentleman did: he tried to buy on the cheap, and the Tivo docs quite plainly tell you that without service, your Tivo's functionality is greatly reduced.
Just as an unregistered phone might stop working at any time, an unsubscribe Tivo might stop working at any time. If that is unacceptable to you, then either buy a subscription, don't buy the unit, or accept the consiquences of your actions.
www.eFax.com are spammers
I'd like to post an alternative point of view to the prevailing view here.
/.).
First, allow me to establish my credentials. I am a long-time Linux hacker, an engineer, and a strong believer in freedom. I'm also the owner of a DirectTivo unit.
Now, when I purchased the DTV I knew that it would not function without two subscriptions: the DirectTV subscription and the Tivo subscription. Never the less, I bought it, and paid the price for a lifetime Tivo subscription.
The Tivo docs very clearly tell you that a Tivo without a subscription will be much less useful than one with a subscription. Tivo makes their money on the subscriptions, not the hardware (a common sight here on
Now, while I agree that it wasn't nice of Tivo to downgrade the functionality of the units in the fashion they did, their primary focus is the folks the get money from, i.e. subscribers. If this guy wanted to do things on the cheap, he should accept the responsibility for his descision.
If I buy a cell phone, it is next to useless without a service subscription of some sort. If I buy a wireline phone, it is a paperweight without a service plan from my local telco. My DSL does me no good if there's not a DSLAM at the other end of the line. We buy things that need subscriptions all the time. You should go into those purchases with your eyes wide open.
This guy didn't.
www.eFax.com are spammers
Lets not forget the other cool features of Tivo that are not mentioned here. First and formost being able to come into a program 1/2 way recorded being able to watch it from the start. How many times have you gotten home from work late only to find your favorite TV show in mid record, and then having to wait for 1/2 hour or more to rewind the tape and watch the show? With tivo you just go into now playing and start watching the recording from the begining WHILE it continues to record the rest of the show for you.
What about if your watching that cool documentary on Linus on TLC and your girlfriend calls. Without a PVR, your stuck doing one of the following. Not paying attention to the show and chatting with your girlfriend. Not paying attention to your girlfriend and watching Linus. Preying you have a video tape in the VCR and preying it's at the right spot and hitting record, then listening to your girl. Asking your girl to call back after the show.
None of those are really options that lead to sucess but with Tivo you got a choice. You can pause the show for upto 30 minutes and chat with your girl. You can hit record, and with 2.0 you'll get the last 30 minutes of the show all recorded together as one program to be watched later. Or if you're using a Tivo correctly you already recorded the show at an earlier viewing and are just watching a recorded episode and just have to hit pause and talk to your girl all you want.
Think of it this way, you and your buds want to watch an event, it could be anything. The latest Antiques roadshow, or maybe an Iron Chef episode, but it's not on when you all get together. No problem for a person with Tivo, cause they've already recorded it and as Emril says BAM! your ready to rock and road.
The upgrade's abilities far outway it's detractions for me atleast. Maybe you have a different idea what you want, but then maybe you don't need a Tivo to begin with, so why did you you buy one?
Sure the service is optional, but some of the advanced features are not optional. Setting his clock can be done by hand as has been stated. Any slashdot geek could probably do it with no problem at all. It's just a linux prompt!
recording on the fly? Well guess what that is an option that took a programmer a while to figure out and code. That costs money. Nag screens again they are there for a reason, Tivo does not make money on the stand alone boxes. They've subsidized them and hope to get money back on their investment through the service agreement. Is the box still functional? Yes, could the person have continued to used the service as was without having it dialup? Sure unplug the phone cord. That simple.
He snoozed he lost end of story. The fact that slash dot is paying so much attention to this is rather shameful. For 99% of the paying customers an upgrade to 2.0 is a good thing lots more functunality. Do I feel sorry for those who are too cheap to pay for the service? No.
Okay you need to get a clue here. The person called tivo, or atleast his device did. It said hello, my name is george What's up Tivo? Tivo said Hey what version are you running george? George replied I'm running version 1.3. Tivo responded first by sending an mail to george's tivo stating it was going to be upgraded. Then the next time the connection happened Tivo was upgraded. That was a full 24 hours later.
This person was warned the upgrade was going to happen. He chose to leave his tivo connected and he lost out on functionality. This is not Tivo going in and forcing an upgrade down this person's throat. He chose to leave his phone line hooked up knowing that Tivo made nightly calls even if he was not subscribed. To obstenively set his clock functionality.
Runestar
Not to mention with a Ultimate TV box you have to have a dish. They don't work for standard cable period. No dish no service your purchase is useless.
Tivo and Replay are the only ones that work Over the air or via cable boxes. At least that's what I know.
Runestar
Then what they should've done was not allowed people with subscriptions to dial in to do the time checks. They should've made it so you could set the time yourself, or make it so you manually have to dial a long distance or 900# to do it (NOT automatic or people will bitch). So then it's NOT on their own dime. But they designed the box that way so they should have to deal.
err that should say "without subscriptions"
I'm sorry, I have absolutely no sympathy for you people. TiVo is an excellent product, and I would never think twice about "tipping" the creators $10/month for DAILY updates of time data, guide data for 15 days in the future, and the feature-rich menus that involve rather in-depth program searching, down to actors names. The software will even pick programs for you based on your likes and dislikes! What more could you ask from this?
It is stated on every (at least Phillips) box with a large blue sticker that it "Requires subscription to the TiVo service" for full functionality. If you don't read the box, it's your own damn fault. It's like drinking weed killer because you didn't read the label to find out it was harmful to humans.
This post, and the other anti-TiVo posts here are disgraceful. They do NOT have a "moral obligation to make the devices work for all customers". Not at all! They clearly state both on the box and in BOTH manuals that you need the TiVo service! It's like bitching that you bought a cable modem but can't use it because it didn't clearly state you needed to have cable modem service with it. You just can't separate some things. And as far as morals go, the dealers and manufacturers sell TiVos at a loss, only to be reimbursed later in advertising and subscription money that TiVo brings in.
So the fact is, you can get TiVo without a subscription. It costs an extra $200 or so - just like the box SHOULD cost if the manufacturers were selling them with a standard mark-up. I have less than NO sympathy whatsoever for people that whine about this sort of thing. If you bitch about the money, you obviously have less than half a clue as to what goes into these things, and what it costs to keep them up-and-running with the full subset of features, not to mention the added features that are coming out every few months (like DirecTV dual tuners, coming summer 2000). Give it a rest.
Do you honestly think MS' product will even attempt to run if you haven't been prompt with your monthly payment? Shudder to think that MS would actually change their ways. Think again sucker. MS is more greedy and avaricious than TiVO ever could hope to be. The number one reason is that they can get away with it.
At least with tivo it *is* possible to hack around this stuff because it's linux and has been reverse engineered. I wonder what kind of bastardized OS MS puts on their money sinks? Surely nothing that can be reverse engineered. Why dont you MS shills crawl back under the rock you came out of.
As for the "can't justify spending $10 a month for program data that is free on the web and comes in the Sunday newspapers", I see once again evidence of idiocy. YOU PAY FOR THE NEWSPAPER. YOU PAY FOR WEB ACCESS. NOT FREE. Sure, these are certainly cheaper ways of getting that information - the Web access by virtue of you using it for many other things. But do either of them automatically integrate the program info with the tuner? Allow you to record by show title - not caring about the time and channel? Link the program descriptions with all your recordings so that you don't have to label everything? No. The $10 per month is for the value added service to that information - not the information itself. I certainly feel it is worth it, and have the lifetime subscription, so I have no monthly fee - I just have effectively paid as much for my TiVo as I would have for a Replay unit. Replay sucked.
Don't worry, there will soon be many plain digital recorders that don't have a service, but are just like a manual VCR with a hard drive instead of video tape - probably some models with integrated tape for archiving. There will be a need for the sub $400 market using digital recording. There will likely be a price war with the subscription units which will almost be given away to keep customers from going with the non-subscription units.
I'm also so sick of all the ragging on TiVo's $10/month by people not wanting to pay it who then went and bought Replay because it didn't have a monthly fee. These idiots don't realize that the extra they paid for the Replay could also have bought them the lifetime TiVo subscription.
It is a _very_ bad idea to ship a product with certain features and then afterwards attempt through subterfuge to take it away.
Even if your lawyers find a way to make it 'legal' the bad press it generates ALWAYS really hurts a product. Not to mention that the product Tivo is trying to push is something very new in concept. You're going to have a real hard time getting new customers after pissing off all your existing ones.
Or in caveman talk: If give.. cannot take back.. ugh... if pay for, mine! not yours! You want change? ask Ug first! No smack him on head while he sleep and do anyways!
Do not spread "09 F9 11 02 9D 74 E3 5B D8 41 56 C5 63 56 88 C0" over the internet, thank you.
This is nothing new. DirecTV has been sending down "updates" that kill unauthorized access cards for years now.
HackHu (www.hackhu.com) is a good site for info on DirecTV "update" news.
It never crossed my mind to use a TiVo without the service. I did some research before buying one and realized that it just didn't offer that much without the service (granted, it apparently used to offer more). I think TiVo is covered legally due to the disclaimer in the manual stating that they can change the service at any time. That may be perceived as sleazy to the people who bought the device with the intention of never subscribing, but I don't think they've broken any laws.
IMO, the service is easily worth $10/month or $250/lifetime. The new features in the recent 2.0 software are just gravy. Now that we're into repeats being aired, I just went through and changed all of my season passes from 'Repeats and first run' to 'First run only'. If the show is a repeat, it doesn't record it. When the new season starts up, it will record my favorites automatically. That's just one example of why I think TiVo sometimes gets overlooked. It's hard to describe everything that you get for $10 in a few sentences, so TiVo is sometimes perceived as a glorified VCR.
Check out all of the features that $10/month gives you. It may not be worth it to you, but do that research before buying a TiVo. IMO, it's easily worth it (I bought 2).
This is mainly in response to all of the 'Bah! My Cocker Spaniel can do the same thing with a video capture board' posts. TiVo's software & service do offer some pretty advanced features.
What if the Hokey-Pokey really is what it's all about?
PSO version 2.0 is due to be released in a few weeks. Sega has indicated that they are going to charge to play this version. European and Japanese players have been paying for the original PSO. ~$10 for 3 months IIRC.
What if the Hokey-Pokey really is what it's all about?
30 hour Panasonic Showstopper with no monthly fee: $550 (after rebate).
30 hour TiVo: $300.
Lifetime subscription: $250.
Total $550.
Why is this so hard??
What if the Hokey-Pokey really is what it's all about?
I would attribute it to ReplayTV's deceptive advertising. They take advantage of the fact that most people are too stupid to do the math.
What if the Hokey-Pokey really is what it's all about?
I think my Grandma would agree that sacrificing a little book time to keep up with news about the technology that got me a job paying more than anyone else in my family at the age of twenty-two is a good thing. :)
- If you add $250 to your budget, you'll have a lifetime subscription and all of these issues will be moot.
- TiVo generally has more features and is easier to use than Replay. If you browse the user forums for both devices, you'll see that Replay users ask for new features and changes much more than TiVo users do.
I bought a 60-hour TiVo from Phillips, and although I did spend a lot ($750 including subscription), the device is amazing. The software works great, it has lots of features (2.0 is way better than 1.3 in my opinion), and it's totally changed the way I watch TV (for the better, obviously).--
Lord Nimon
And the men who hold high places must be the ones who start
To mold a new reality... closer to the heart
Very simple - the whole world is not the USA! Reverse engineer the protocol in another country - then you are governed by their laws and the american lawmakers can go f**k themselves.
-- You ain't seen me, right?
that would give TiVO-like video recording functionality (live pause, etc.), using a commodity PC with fast HDs, and video in, but without being hobbled to a subscription service? Hmmm...
There's 10 types of people in this world, those who understand binary and those who don't.
It's not illegal if if it's licensed by the company (DirectTV) that encrypts the signal.
Nonsense. I've seen the ads, I know how these things were sold. Who sold them, whether the manufacturer or Tivo, is besides the point. The point being that the customers bought them and the customers own them. Including the bits on the hard drive, subject to normal copyright law restrictions (I own the books on my shelf, I can't copy or resell them but they still belong to me, not the author or publisher.) Tivo has no more right than my 13 year old neighbor to alter them without permission. Those customers (the majority) who subscribe to the service will have given them consent, but customers who bought it for it's stand-alone abilities only have given no such consent. Leaving it plugged into the phone line might well be described as bad judgement - but it was behaviour encouraged by Tivo who made it at least seem that this was the only way to set the clock. Plugging the phone line in no more gave Tivo consent to crack his box than my plugging a line into my personal computer gives you consent to crack it. Anyway, if the expense of providing NTP service to non-subscribers was a concern, they could have simply chosen to only provide it to subscribers (and perhaps even point out the obscure method necessary to set the clock manually.)
My point stands, this was a simple crack job, and if Tivo won't fix the mess they have made of other people's machines quickly and apologize for it profusely, they can and should find themselves facing both criminal charges and a class-action lawsuit.
"That old saw about the early bird just goes to show that the worm should have stayed in bed."
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Friends don't let friends enable ecmascript.
Excellent post. Should be modded up. Well, unless your bullshitting of course, I don't know enough to be sure but it doesn't look like you are to me. ;)
Gotta say Tivo just lost a customer though. I had been thinking about buying one for awhile, had it budgeted for next month. But a bullshit move like this... *sigh*. I don't even care if it is possible to hack the thing back into shape. First off that probably wouldn't be true of one I bought next month, since it will probably come with the new "improved" software only, but more importantly, this is just a total disrespect of the customer and of basic concepts of fairness and decency, not to mention the law. They sold these things. They didn't lease them. Modifying the software like this... well it is illegal and immoral and a damn good sign this company is not one that I want to give any money. I hope they get sued. Better yet, criminal charges should be filed. Seriously. I believe there is a federal law in the US now that makes it a rather serious criminal offense to gain unauthorised access to a computer, and an additional offense to use that access to remove or obstruct capabilities/functions etc of that computer, interfering with its legitimate use... well it's late and I didn't phrase that well, and of course IANAL, but if I owned a Tivo I'd be talking to one. Sadly with our current legal regime in the US, suing them would be an uphill battle, so it probably won't happen unless one of the pissed off customers happens to be rich. Maybe a class action suit? I don't know... but this is definately wrong.
Considering how great Tivo has been on some issues in the past, maybe they will reverse their error. Maybe we shouldn't all just suddenly decide they are evil because of one mistake. Ok not maybe, certainly. Mistakes are made, it's only human. The key will be how they respond in the next few days though. If they stand by this illegal cracking of boxes (it deserves emphasis) that they do NOT own against the owners wishes though, there is simply no excuse for that. On the other hand, maybe someone at Tivo with a little power will pull their head out of the orifice it's jammed in and we will see an apology. Maybe they will fix the damage their little cracking expedition has caused. If so, I urge the victims to forgive them. If not... I say crucify the bastards.
"That old saw about the early bird just goes to show that the worm should have stayed in bed."
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Friends don't let friends enable ecmascript.
You have to pay a fee for any PVR you go with. With TiVo you get the option of paying monthly or a lifetime subscription (of the box, not your lifetime). They give the option. UltimateTV is montly only Replay is lifetime only (their boxes cost $200 more than TiVo's -- which up until a month ago was the cost of a TiVo lifetime subscription)
1 - They admitted the mistake and are going to fix it
2 - It is lifetime of the *BOX* not your lifetime. You really think they are going to let you use TiVo for ever for only $250 - puhleeze.
Do some research before you post
Did you read from the linke?
:)
Paying for the service isn't the issue.
This guy bought the Tivo unit and it has functionality that works in both the subscription and non-subscription scenarios. So, this guy has function X without the subscription and now function X has been disabled.
Look at it this way. Say you buy Microsoft Visual C++. But not the professional version. After a year of use, a new *upgrade* disables 'saving' and tells you that you need to upgrade to Professional or subscribe to TechNet. (or whatever the hell it's called) Clearly that is *unethical*.
Now if you download shareware (you hanv't paid them a dime) and they want to disable features after a certain amount of time, then no problem. But this guy BOUGHT the tivo and now it less functional than when he bought it.
It doesn't matter at all that they are a business with the interest of making money. The change is bogus. If i were him, I'd buy another Tivo unit and do the old swap/return deal, then figure out a way to mess with the unit so that shit doesn't upgrade. The swap/return idea isn't ethical either, but sometimes one must fight fire with fire
Chaos, Mayhem, and Destruction: Not
Sounds like it would be a better idea to get hold of a GFX card with grabbar functions and write some good software for it.
Besides, with digital TV/HDTV you really do want to get the original MPEG2 stream instead of decoding it once, and then encoded again when you record. Any set-top boxers/satellite recievers with firewire out? ^_^
Hack your own future!
You could just as easily argue that by letting his Tivo call up and get the upgrade, he was pirating the Tivo software.
Excellent. Reminds me of the Windows/Office XP registration bogosity, where you have to get permission from MSFT to continue running the software you (most likely) paid for if you ever upgrade your motherboard or hard drive, or if BillG just feels like making you say "Uncle."
This momentous event has inspired me to coin a neologism (note 1) describing software or hardware products whose vendors exercise an inappropriate, unwarranted, and unsolicited degree of remote control over its post-purchase operation:
Tetherware.
Google doesn't find any occurrences of the term on either WWW or Usenet, so I hereby claim all proprietary IP rights to the word "tetherware" and all variants thereof on an exclusive worldwide basis.
Happily, a license to propagate this meme is available for only $1 per use, payable via PayPal to jmiles@pop.net. Use of the term "tetherware," in public or private, without remittance of the license fee will result in the remote disabling of your personal communications apparatus via techniques previously employed by Vader et al., Imperial Business Software Alliance, c. 1977.
I've even come up with a tres trendy slogan for my new invention:
"Tetherware: Where do you want to be dragged kicking and screaming today?"
(Note 1: If you don't know what a "neologism" is, see http://www.m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionary?neologism and choose the meaning that most clearly applies.)
Dahlmann tightly grips the knife, which he may have no idea how to use, and steps out into the plain.
the article states: "TiVo won't let you set the clock on your own recording unit. You have to connect it to a phone line so they can set it for you..." Sounds like the box won't work at all without the hookup.
"You saved 1968." - Ms. Valerie Pringle to the crew of Apollo 8
Looks like the word "protected" will let Tivo an easy way out.
Indeed, the law makes clear distinction between "a computer" and "a protected computer". However what protected means here is unclear to me. It may be protected by this law or protected by user. The former qualifies, the latter may be argued (a rape can not be justified because the victim was too weak to defend herself.)
why would he need to be connected to the phone at all?
Because it's his unit and the user is free to plug it wherever he pleases, including even less obvious possibilities :-) If seriously, the cable might have been plugged to evaluate the service with possible intent to subscribe. Failure of a homeowner to install a better lock would be a very weak defense at the trial of a burglar.
The question is, what if you forgot to check the weekly listings, or couldn't do it for some other reason? Maybe you don't think you have to safeguard against that, but obviously, a lot of people think that the conveniente is woth $10 / month.
The illegal we do immediately. The unconstitutional takes a little longer.
--Henry Kissinger
It depends on how long you kept the cat locked in the box, doesn't it? :)
--
"I'm surfin the dead zone
--
"I'm surfin the dead zone
In the twilight, unknown"
A quick search on google turned up this link: http://microsoft.toddverbeek.com/tv.html ...
Enjoy!
--
"I'm surfin the dead zone
--
"I'm surfin the dead zone
In the twilight, unknown"
If you don't like the TiVo service, you could always buy one of these.
More expensive, naturally.
--
"I'm surfin the dead zone
--
"I'm surfin the dead zone
In the twilight, unknown"
For many of us, the 5-10 minutes saved each week are well worth $10/month. And that's not even counting the savings from automatic labelling, faster fast forwarding and other features that random access allows for.
Alternatively, does anyone know why this same TV Tuner won't work under Linux? On Mandrake 8, I just get the same channel it was playing last under Windows, and under Red Hat I don't get anything at all. With both I use XawTV.
The only "intuitive" interface is the nipple. After that, it's all learned.
"The question of whether a computer can think is no more interesting than that of whether a submarine can swim" -EWD
Isn't there a rather obvious difference between TiVo's grabbing that information without his approval and his choosing to post a sample of such information in order to show others what kind of information TiVo is gathering about TiVo users? I see no hypocrisy here.
Remember "Interactive Network" (iN) that allowed you to play along with TV shows with their handheld unit that plugged into the phone back in the mid 90's?"
I do! Just found it in my closet, along with NBA finals information when i turned it on. Contrary to ESPN's predictions that the Lakers will win the championships this year, Michael Jordan and the Chicago Bulls will three-peat!
" Well, you know *shrug* " - Mr. Generic Guy
knowingly causes the transmission of a program, information, code, or command, and as a result of such conduct, intentionally causes damage without authorization, to a protected computer;
There's a $5000 damage requirement, but you get to aggregate that over all the victims.
And trying to use such an act to sell a service may be extortion.
Note that in this case, the user did not agree to some shrink-wrap license which might be said to justify the act. He didn't subscribe to the service.
Somebody with a TiVo and this problem should file a criminal complaint.
And Tivo offering to fix the problem if you complain isn't a defense for this crime.
He had to connect to the phone to set the clock, because Tivo wouldn't let him manually set it. While connected to the phone, the unit called "home" in the middle of the night, and downloaded a new OS -- one that removed features that had existed previously, features that he had paid for.
When he bought the product he made a choice to trade a certain amount of money for certain features. Tivo, after the fact, disabled some of those features. He didn't get to unilaterally retract some of the money he paid them after they delivered his Tivo, did he? Why should they be able to unilaterally retract features?
"They're a business" is not an answer. Busineses don't get special treatment under contract law. They're just parties, like individuals are.
"Those who have never entered upon scientific pursuits know not a tithe of the poetry by which they are surrounded."
I was considering purchasing an addition to my home entertainment center. I was considering TiVo as my new addition. To learn that I would have to PAY a constant subscription rate just to get it to work??
Does UltimateTV work the same way? I am so tired of being part of "residual" income for companies. I would buy the product, then I own it, not have to worry about paying to keep using it.
Its not like you dont pay for Cable already or DSS or your TV. Now you have to pay monthly to get some advanced VCR on your TV.
I can program myself out of a Hello World Contest!!
TiVo is losing money. For last year they posted a 100 million dollar loss. Their income was only 3 million dollars.
TiVo PAYS Sony and RCA to manufacture the boxes. Yes, that's right. It's not the other way around. TiVo actually has to subsidize the cost of manufacturing the boxes.
The ONLY way that TiVo makes money is through its subscription service.
Hopefully TiVo won't continue to make the boxes less and less functional, since they might soon be out of business.
Sounds like Iridium. And we know how successful that business model was.
TiVo will just join the line of great ideas and products that were stupidly marketed. "Your business model sucks" realities are everywhere you look these days.
T
Milhouse: "Why don't we put it on the internet?"
Besides, with digital TV/HDTV you really do want to get the original MPEG2 stream ... Any set-top boxers/satellite recievers with firewire out
No. The transmissions are encrypted, and manufacturing a device producing cleartext digital output and marketing it to United States customers would violate DMCA. Sorry.
Will I retire or break 10K?
That would mean that the Tivo itself is illegal under the DMCA, since it "decripts" a video signal
Decryption brings the DMCA into play only if the decryption involves an "effective access control," that is, an 8-bit or longer key. An unscrambled analog signal enters the TiVo unit, and an unscrambled analog signal leaves. The TiVo system circumvents no access control at any point during its normal operation.
My original point refers to the decryption of a digital stream. In the eyes of the law (ignoring for a moment constitutionality and other aspects of "good law"; to some politicians, any law lobbied for with dollars spent on products for which Americans voted with their wallets counts as good law), digital + decryption + key + no specific contract with copyright owner == DMCA violation.
Will I retire or break 10K?
If the unit is unsubbed, it's not calling
If the unit is not calling, its clock is potentially hours or days off, as there is NO menu option to set the clock without calling TiVo's servers. Read the longer thread.
Will I retire or break 10K?
I'd be interested in reading the legal definition of "effective", in re access control.
The DMCA (17 USC 1201) defines an effective access control as one that, "in the ordinary course of its operation, requires the application of information, or a process or a treatment, with the authority of the copyright owner, to gain access to the work."
Obviously, eight bit is far from effective
DigitalConvergence doesn't seem to think so. DC cease and desisted somebody who cracked the CueCat barcode reader's third-grade 8-bit XOR encryption.
Will I retire or break 10K?
but are the listings copyrighted material? If not, isn't that a requirement
The listings may be copyright the TV networks. But even if the listings may not be copyrighted, other parts of the protocol may be. For example, there may be a big piece of copyrighted data passed around (like the Dreamcast IP.bin's license screen code) that must match a copy in ROM bit-for-bit. Or a hash of some copyrighted data may be involved (see also GAIM troubles). Either way, you have copyright + access control + circumvention == DMCA violation.
Will I retire or break 10K?
It's not illegal if if it's licensed by the company (DirectTV) that encrypts the signal.
It's also DirecTV's right to refuse to license any decryption that produces a cleartext digital output.
Will I retire or break 10K?
Heck, we could even get the listings from the net and provide those too. Reverse engineer the protocol and enable whatever features you want! ;).
No. If you try to reverse engineer them but find out that the protocol is encrypted, you just violated the DMCA because you published your results on a site accessible to United States viewers. Sorry.
Will I retire or break 10K?
First I would like to comment that you should actually take the time to read an article that is posted rather then start on a rant.
If you would have read the article you would have noticed that he did not download and install any software on his own. The unit needs to be plugged into a phone line in order sync it's time. They offer this time-sync for free. Now if Tivo offers these units as stand-alone/no service needed to operate. You can still:
1. Rewind/Record Live Programs.
2. No need for a tape
3. No need to label a video tape
4. One touch delete.
5. One touch record.
This is advertised on the box. Now Tivo has disabled such features as:
One Touch Record
Labeling no longer works right.
Very annoying subscribe screen.
Now it is hardly fair that they change your unit because you do not want to subscribe to they're service. They offer the devices for sale without a need for their service. Now it appears they have changed their mind. Well just because they created a product that didn't actually need service to be useful is not the customers fault.
Imagine you have a Palm VII. You love it but did not sign up for the palm.net service, then all of a sudden palm decides that you can no longer use your organizer without subscribing to they're internet service, you would be pissed!
I promise you there will be a class-action lawsuit over this, and I would whole-heartedly support it.
From RB (a TiVo employee), taken from the AVSForum:
"For the record...
"In our next release we are reinstating the use of the record button (the only thing that changed between 1.3 and 2.0.1 for customers who bought units that shipped with software prior to 2.0. We did not really mean to change that functionality. We do apologize for the inconvenience this caused for the time it takes to get the new software out.
"In 2.5, with no service, on boxes that were purchased with a software release prior to 2.0, pressing the record button will record for 30 minutes, and then stop. Nothing else should change in the no-service-state.
-RB
I read the av forum and was really surprised at the tone of the posts from TiVolutionary, supposedly a "face" to the TiVo company. Is this a pointer to the bigger issue of hardware ownership? I think it's pretty dangerous (legally and ethically) when a person can in no uncertain terms purchase i.e. you go to *favorite retailer goes here*, grab a TiVo, go to the cashier, and walk out with YOUR OWN unit with a receipt to prove ownership. Then find out later that no - that's not really how it works. The fine print in that case is bull$hit. The TiVo guy on that forum basically said that if you do not subscribe you are NOT A TiVo customer and go F yourself. He needs a boot in the ass to remember that TiVo is partnered with the hardware company, period. Being a complete Dick to the owners of those devices makes all parties look really bad.
Legally he may be right, but ethically and comercially he's dead wrong. The TiVo brand is all over that product (that thingie you walked out of Best Buy with a receipt taped on the box). With the official response that TiVolutionary Bozo posted I wonder how many people not only made the decision to NEVER subscribe, but also advised friends and family how the TiVo company is about "their" product. Yeah, so maybe the legaleeze that nobody reads lets TiVo off the hook, but I understand that the marketing shows that the TiVo subscription "enhances" the operation, but doesn't preclude the basic features. Why anyone would knowingly spend $400 and be OK with a nag screen on every button astounds me - so I am probably right in assuming that "feature" isn't exactly described on the packaging or other literature. When one person whines you say ok they are a freak. When an entire community screams - maybe, just maybe the company made a bad move.
I believe that any company selling a device that requires some sort of subscription, or that they plan on "upgrading" only do so with a lease of some type. AND THEN MAKE IT CRYSTAL CLEAR WITH 40 PT TYPE THAT YOU ARE RENTING NOT OWNING THE DEVICE!! I get tv and Internet from my cable company. They are very clear that I am LEASING the digital converter box and cable modem. This gives them the undeniable right to change it whenever they see fit and me the undeniable right to have that crap picked up if I don't like an "upgrade". ALL BECAUSE I DON'T OWN IT! And I don't have a $400 purchase receipt the wipe the tears with either :-D
Any service that can update itself is potentially a cause for concern, because the user is no longer in control of their hardware. Do you really want to buy something that may start to behave differently after you bought it?
:-)
When I read about the "time bombs" that were to be built-in to SDMI, this is exactly the sort of thing that came to mind. For those of you who might not be aware, the SDMI group proposed that the SDMI restrictions be implemented in several phases. They would first roll out "phase 1" to get the technology in the market, and then upgrade those players to "phase 2" when a better watermarking technology was ready. When a phase 1 MP3 player detected a phase 2 watermark in the audio, it would ask the user to install new firmware. Some suggested that when this so-called "millenium time-bomb" was activated, the player could refuse to play MP3s until the upgrade was installed. (I'm leaving out a lot of the details here. This information was revealed at MP3.com a few years ago, but I cannot locate the articles now.)
The same thing might be in the future for all of our software, if the "software as a service" model takes off. There were mumblings that in the future, different components of Microsoft Office could be licenced individually. (If you don't want the spell checker, for example, you don't have to pay for it.) Also note that Microsoft wants people (or at least corporations) to start paying yearly subscription fees for their software, instead of purchasing it outright. What happens if they change their pricing scheme? Or decide that they're going to start renting the spell checker, grammar checker, and thesaurus as a bundle, instead of offering them individually?
Of course, I'm probably just paranoid.
---=-=-=-=-=-=---
Slashdot gets worse every day... Pipedot: News for nerds, without the corporate slant
I bought an "upgrade" for my Delorme Street Map USA a while back and in the previous version they has a feature that you could install some software of theirs onto a palm pilot and hook the Palm up to their GPS and get position and speed readings on the Palm Pilot. In the "upgrade" they took this feature out and made you pay an extra $40 for it. That pissed me off so much I will never buy another Delorme product again. I suggest the rest of you don't either!
Is it just me, or does it seem that just maybe the networks/studios/MPAA, et al called up Tivo and said:
After reading articles like the one that idiot Dvorak penned (http://www.forbes.com/2001/04/16/0416dvorak.html) I don't think it's too far fetched to think that Tivo may be getting pressure to pay for the "privelege" of allowing users to use these features.
I smell a class action lawsuit by Tivo purchasers coming...
-- "Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former." -A.Einstein
I'm pretty sure I read a long time ago about a case where the author of a shareware program tried to remotely disable or remove any products of his that the user had not registered for. It was brought to the courts and found illegal to remotely access a user's computer, without the user's permission even if that person was trying to access software that they made and even if they gave it away for free.
Since in this case they actually paid for TiVo without signing away any rights their case should be even stronger.
Up here in Canada we have a satellite service called Starchoice. For $49 a month I get a fairly good selection of channels (Iron Chef rules!), BUT, and this is the big one, the system is still effectively a beta! There are numerous glitches, such as the guide randomly resetting itself, program information not being available. Effectively I'm paying $50 a month to beta test their damn system.
There is also the fact that despite paying a fortune for the stations, most of them show commercials as well. Talk about double dipping! I mean the shows have commercials which makes money, the shows are then sponsored which makes even MORE money, AND we pay for the right to watch them which makes even more.
Don't get me wrong, I don't mind paying for quality, but when there is that much money coming in, and no increase in quality... Very aggravating. Alas where I live it's that or nothing, and since I need the TV for my work I have no choice.
---
stinkgeek.com - you know your life as a nerd is empty so why not fill it with useless crap at a premium price?
Whats that I smell? Why it's the pungent stench of hypocrisy!
---
No, it;s business. If you yourself committed the exact same act, it would be illegal and extortion and you could be prosecuted. TiVO however are just doing "business".
Business and crime are the same these days, it's just those that committ the former have better legal services at their disposal.
---
You don't need to shell out $50 or so on a device to let you record stuff crippled by Macrovisions "Quality Protection."
I have an old Betamax VCR. I stuck that between my satellite systems signal output and my VHS VCR and it cleans the signal up, conveniently removing the Macrovision stuff perfectly. Now when I order a PPV on the system I can get my moneys worth and tape it. Sweet!
Hope someone finds this useful. Macrovision are evil.
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You already have no privacy. Get over it.
This breaks quite a few features on TiVo that are useful:
Season Passes -- you need to know the upcoming schedule to make this go.
Suggestions -- Without knowledge of the entire database, ratings, and upcoming showings, collaborative filtering fails.
The abilitiy to search by director, actor, etc.
In a perfect world, there would be an ability to subscribe to any database out there and use the TiVo functions as a recorder, but this creates an even larger number of problems:
Revenue streams - The reason why you can buy a TiVo so cheaply is that the cost of the box is supplanted by the income from ongoing subscriptions. I had a meeting with RePlay TV some time ago, and as it turns out the box is sold at a loss (well, it's not sold anymore, but still, it was sold at a loss and I believe the TiVo is sold at a loss as well.)
Payment - Someone has to prepare, review, and organize the catalog data. Short of an IMDB for current live TV listings (which are put together by an aggregator at the moment, and then TiVo buys that data) put together by the public, this isn't going to happen.
I agree with your ideas, but in practice, they don't work.
I watch Emeril over Iron Chef. (So sue me.)
I'd miss Battlebots. They don't go as fast as F1, but the chance to see flying metal parts is about the same. ;-)
"Rub her feet." -- L.L.
Sorry, you are wrong.
The world won't end in darkness, it'll end in family fun, with Coca-cola clouds behind a Big Mac sun.
The world won't end in darkness, it'll end in family fun, with Coca-cola clouds behind a Big Mac sun.
"Um... have you purchase a Tivo??? Read the agreements that *you* agree to when you purchase it... you agree to sign up for the service. The service is one of the features clearly listed all over the damn place. Just because it's a "feature" you have to pay for does not make it any less a feature. Sorry, you are wrong."
If your talking to me, then yes, I have purchased a TiVo. What part of "plucked down $400 for a silver vcr" didn't you understand? I don't recall ANY agreements that I agreed to when I purchased it, let alone any agreements that were presented to me. I walked in, pointed, paid, left. No big stickers, no flashing lights, nothing. I agreed to buy a silver box. Thats it. As for your arguement that its a "feature", a feature is not something you are legally obligated to use, nor pay for if you don't require that "feature".
SealBeater
-- Its survival of the fittest...and we got the fucking guns!!!
"Oh, another point, you don't have to _sign_ anything to agree to a contract. In the states, you don't have to sign any forms for phone service, and you certainly don't have to sign anything to agree to a software license... even prior to UCITA."
No, your right, you don't have to *sign* anything to agree to a contract, however you do have to agree, hence the "clicking OK" on software licenses. If I am presented with no contract and even if I am presented with a contract and I don't agree to it, I am under no contractual obligation. My purchasing a piece of hardware cannot be conscured as my agreeing to a legally binding contract. If I buy a phone in a store, I don't HAVE to purchase phone service with anyone, either now or in the future. I can do whatever I like physically to the phone, and if the phone company were to do something that effected the software of my phone, I would be extremely pissed. So would most *reasonal* people. Unfortunately, that particular breed of person is becoming rare.
SealBeater
-- Its survival of the fittest...and we got the fucking guns!!!
Actually sir, you are quite misinformed. There is one big difference: You do not own a directv smart card. It is clearly marked as the property of NDS, thus they can do whatever the hell they want to it. This is why you cannot sell a card unless it is sold *with* a receiver.
Furthermore, as one of those "H card hackers", I resent your "cheap assholes" statement. I live in Canada, directv does not sell its services in Canada, thus I am *not* stealing from directv by way of a lost sale. The supreme court of Canada agrees with me, and this "hacking" is LEGAL in Canada.
Verify your facts before you make yourself look like an ass.
Matt
Disclosure: I do not own a TiVo, and have no interests in the company.
Don't take life so seriously; it isn't permanent.
PS: Look up the defination of "theft":
1. (Law) The act of stealing; specifically, the felonious taking and removing of personal property, with an intent to deprive the rightful owner of the same; larceny.
Since Canadians watching directv in this manner are not depriving them of anything, it's not theft, don't call it stealing. It would be theft if they sold their services in Canada since I would be depriving them of a lost sale, but this is not the case. Directv cannot legally operate in Canada due to our broadcast laws, it's not my problem that their satellite signal penetrates my private property. The courts seem to agree, as they have lost most every court case they've ever brought to Canada.
Don't take life so seriously; it isn't permanent.
suggestions@tivo.com
Fire away.
Does anyone actually have a Java program designed to control air traffic, or for the operation of a nuclear facility?
Uh... UltimateTV is a TiVo ripoff, and ain't no way in hell that MS would ever sell a Linux-based product. I'd say it's an excellent chance that your average UltimateTV unit is running WinCE.
/Brian
When you dial into TiVo's network, you are connecting to their systems on their dime. It is their network, and they should be compensated for it.
Plus, it was made pretty clear when I bought mine that there was a $10/month fee associated with it. That it was part and parcel to the entire setup, and that you had have the subscription.
Check out the TiVo FAQ site and the AVS forum, you'll find that a lot of information is known about the internals of the TiVo, and how to hack it, etc... The one thing that you won't find is a way to circumvent the subscription model. Why? Becuase TiVo has been so open with their specs and information, and no one wants to hurt that relationship. It is a company that is selling their product at about cost, and making their money on the subscriptions. They are being nice to the geek community by giving us the information on how to make our TiVo's better by ourselves. However, don't fault them because you agreed to pay a subscription fee and then didn't.
"If we knew what we were doing, it wouldn't be called research." - Einstein
I'm sorry, I have ZERO sympathy for the guy who wants to dial in to set his clock yet not pay for TiVo service.
First thing is if you set up a shell on your TiVo, you can connect from another PC and set your time manually. You never need to dial TiVo again.
Second, come on. The guy *KNEW* that TiVo expects a subscription. How can he rationally expect TiVo to be a viable company without subscriptions?
Third, if he wants TiVo-like functionality, he could have saved a bit on his $400 investment. Buy an ATI Radeon All-in-Wonder or a Hauppauge card. There are others as well.
"Population 1,656"
- TiVo is losing money. For last year they posted a 100 million dollar loss. Their income was only 3 million dollars.
- TiVo PAYS Sony and RCA to manufacture the boxes. Yes, that's right. It's not the other way around. TiVo actually has to subsidize the cost of manufacturing the boxes.
- The ONLY way that TiVo makes money is through its subscription service.
Hopefully TiVo won't continue to make the boxes less and less functional, since they might soon be out of business.Cryptnotic
My other first post is car post.
In my opinion, the current cultural blindness to the moral responsibilities of corporations is one of the root causes of the general degeneration of today.
The Mongrel Dogs Who Teach
Sheesh. How we can complain about people taking away our rights when we seem willing to abdicate them ourselves?
The Mongrel Dogs Who Teach
From the ads I've seen, TiVo created that impression quite deliberately. As such, they should have factored the expected cost of non-subscribers into the cost of the machine. Also, through malice or incompetence, they apparently designed software that can set the clock (officially) only through a dial-in. Therefore they are automatically tying non-subscribers to their network and are obligated to support them, too.
If TiVo doesn't want to deal with non-subscribers, then they should give a fix that allows core functionality of the machine (clock set, recording, etc.) without a connection. From then on, they can refuse all calls from non-subscribers justifiably and they can cease upgrading/fixing the software of non-subscribers.
Until then, whatever legal immunities they might have, they have a moral obligation to make the devices work for all customers.
The tie-in to service is why I hesitated from getting TiVo at all. I feel vindicated. You can be sure they will never get dollar one from me now.
The Mongrel Dogs Who Teach
It already has Linux loaded. You could modify the current Linux OS in Tivo if you needed. That way you already have all of the drivers. LEPP
How hard do you all think it would be to emulate their servers? Intercepting the phone call would be dead easy. Heck, we could even get the listings from the net and provide those too. Reverse engineer the protocol and enable whatever features you want! ;).
SSL Certificate
How do they use this closed source MFS filesystem without linking it and bundling it with the kernel, which is GPL'd? For all those that point to TiVo's and say 'see what linux can do..' - look again, and the same statement can be made, but in the context of 'OMG, look what they did to our values....'
I think what we really need is an OpenTivo system. Seems like it would be possible to either modify an existing Tivo to call an alternative service provider (an OpenTivo server) or better yet, a standard distribution that could be used to build OpenTivo boxes.
Tivo's a great idea, but it's clear that PVR's are going to be a commodity item in the next few years (video tapes are dead media). Someone needs to start working on a standardized open program guide as well.
Of course OpenTivo should have built-in ethernet and P2P filesharing ala napster. We all need to start sharing Junkyard Wars and Tenchi with our friends.
Hop to it! What are you waiting for?
You can set the time on your Tivo, just do a test call periodically. You don't get the new software downloaded to you, and you have your time sync'd up. If he would have just made a test call periodically, then there would not have been an issue. He should be pointing the finger at is own dumb self.
BTW the other very easy way to set the time on your Tivo is to plug in to the serial port and just do a regular date command.
First of all, why do I need a reason to justify that to you? If I bought the equipment and own the equipment and the advertisement only said "subscription required for advanced features" then I should, on my prerogative, be able to choose to use the equipment without subscription and without advanced features.
Second of all... Did he ACTIVELY tell the device to call into Tivo and ACTIVELY approve of a feature reduced update to be downloaded to his box? Tivo the company only makes money on the subscriptions and selling aggregated information on your television viewing habits whether you are subscribed or not. Therefore we call this an exchange... You get your clock updated by Tivo and in exchange you give them your statistics (oh you could set the clock yourself by going into a secret menu, but there is no set the clock option for a user not comfortable with back doors).
Tivo did not come into his house, but Tivo's software did have his box appropriate the use of his telephone line to connect to their service, upload information on his viewing habits, download a feature reduced software version, and installed it without informing him that this version will significantly reduce his ability to use the device and did not provide him with the option of refusing the upgrade.
Education is a better safeguard of liberty than a standing army.
Edward Everett (1794 - 1865)
I was happy with the functionality of the TiVo unit without the service, so I bought the TiVo and did not subscribe.
Take it back to the retailer and demand (be polite - but do not accept no for an answer) and get your money back.
Tell them the unit is now broken as far as you are concerned.
but he also agreed to subscribe to the Tivo service.
Um no he didnt. The article, and many responses clearly state that the TiVo advertisied the service as optional. He signed nothing when he exchanged money for the cardboard box containing his PVR. If he had signed a contract - like you do when you sign up for phone service and receive a 'free' or 'discounted' cell phone (ex $29 per month * 3 years = free phone).
You are off base here - he most certainly did *NOT* agree to pay for the service. They have broken the unit he paid for. Like the other poster described, X,Y,Z Features for $MMM. Simple. I hope someone sues/charges these people - this is extortion... and yet another example of corporate hubris.
Tivo is fully justified in taking away any feature they want: YOU have broken the contract, not them.Completely wrong.
Now, you might not think that's a good way to do business,
X,Y,Z Features for $MMM. They offered. He accepted. He is not responsible to their ongoing concerns.
but consider that Tivo doesn't make a single dime from the unit sales,
X,Y,Z Features for $MMM. They offered. He accepted. He is not responsible to their ongoing concerns.
their model is entirely software/service driven.
X,Y,Z Features for $MMM. They offered. He accepted. He is not responsible to their ongoing concerns.
Therefore, I think it's completely fine for them to disable their software for people who violate the service contract they agreed to when purchasing the unit.
They have broken his unit. He did not agree to any contract. TiVo should be charged criminally for vandalism, extortion, bait-and-switch, false advertising, contract violation, etc etc.
You don't like it? Fine, buy the Philips or Sony unit and write all the PVR functionality yourself.
Why? Again, the citizen::business relationship: X,Y,Z Features in some thing for $MMM. They offered. He accepted. He is not responsible to their ongoing concerns.
don't buy the unit if you don't agree to the terms.
.... need me to repeat the way this works - again?
Did you read the article? You really couldnt be *more* 'off-base'.
I have a VHS video. It records stuff really well, and the manufacturer never pesters me for subscriptions.
I also have a mid-80's Mercedes, which doesn't have a catalytic converter at all. And Vardy Continental don't send a Merc salesdroid round to bug me, either.
I suppose you need to choose whether you want to go the groovy techy route and pay, or go low-tech, own all your own stuff outright, and live with a few less features...
A note on just what a pain this unwanted software upgrade is...
At our house, we do subscribe to Tivo service. When the 2.0 upgrade happened (automatically), the Tivo stopped responding to remote control commands from anything - the tivo remote, our programmed remote, etc. Unfortunately, since Tivo's got no buttons on the console, this generally renders it useless. Power cycling proved fruitless.
Eventually we sent it back to Sony, and the problem was attributed to "hard drive failure". This seemed both odd and unlikely, as the unit had continued to go about its recording business.
When we received the unit back with the new hard drive (old software), we checked it out - everything seemed to function. Plugged it back in, the software auto-updated, and guess what ? Stopped responding again. Thanks, guys.
My Tivo is still sick !
I alternate between posting +5 and -1 Comments. Karma: +53 -47 = 6
Disclaimer - I don't own, nor have I ever used Tivo, but isn't one of the big selling points the 30 second skip? Why would they disable that? What do they have to gain?
If you have the extended warranty, you might be able to take it back to the place you bought it from. I know the Circuit City ESP plan offers "Guarranteed Showroom Performance". Bring it into the store and tell them it no longer records properly.
Most of the times when my TiVo dials up I hit (NOT) a busy signal . I told TiVo (NOT) about this, but they said (NOT) that for the number of paying subscribers in my area, they could not increase their capacity.
... PLUS a service contract. This phone is way more than $99 when you get it without the service. I could still use it as a clock/calendar/phone book/games without the service.
LISTEN. You obviously did not buy the cheapest TiVo - $400? I got mine for $200. So you either have a larger capacity or Direct TV included and probably - from all your manual recordings - use it quite extensively.
For your needs, why didn't you get a PC, with a big HD, video capture card, software, etc? Because it's way more expensive. Ah, I understand. So why is the TiVo only $200-$600? Because you get an appliance for a 'no pain' initial purchase price, and pay for the service PLUS make up some of the real development & parts+labor that it really took to build this.
TiVo did not 'force' subscription so far. Neither did they interfere with any of the hacking - bigger HDs, etc - so far. Read the TiVo Hacking forums, you'll get the hint that a lot of people are very thankful to the TiVo people for providing such a nice device and actually are against any hacks that would cheat TiVo out of their service.
Do you have a cell phone? I just got a new one, Nokia 8260 for $99
Morons like you will convince nice companies like the folks at TiVo to make sign-up mandatory as soon as you buy this box - and take strong counter measures against any 'nice' hacking they tolerate so freely now.
If you need a court of law to laugh at you and explain to you that you have no grounds for your complaining, why don't you go and sue them?
There already is, buy the Radeon AIW. No monthly fee.
If you're not a subscriber, how can the subscriber agreement be binding on you???
Without the TiVo Service, your Recorder will have extremely limited functionality. The TiVo Service is required for proper operation of the Recorder. (page 70)
The TiVo Service Agreement itself reads:
TiVo may, at its discretion, from time to time change, add or remove features of the TiVo Service or change the terms and conditions of this agreement. (page 76)
So even people who subscribe can have features removed at TiVo's discretion. That doesn't strike me as a good sign. On the other hand, anyone who hasn't subscribed to the service wouldn't be bound by that agreement now, would they? So this doesn't really shed any light on whether what TiVo did for non-service users is legal. (It's certainly pretty unethical if you ask me.)
"Biped! Good cranial development. Evidently considerable human ancestry."
As I read the /. front page I noticed that the banner ad at the top of the screen was for TiVo, making a big deal about how it runs Linux. Clearly trying to appeal to some of the folks in this audience. Hah -- wait 'til they get a load of this thread.
"Biped! Good cranial development. Evidently considerable human ancestry."
If you dont own one, I'd just go kill myself if I were you. These things are the best things since sliced bread. If you gotta ask WHY, dont even bother waiting for an answer, just pull the trigger and quit breathing my air.
somebody moderate this higher! funny! and so true!
Anyone interested in this kind of stuff but who shudders at the cost of £400 (cost in the UK) Plus £10 Per months of £600 up front there are alternatives. I haver personaly found that digiguide is good and with a subscription price of £4.99 a year! Its only a tv guide but their website has links to some third party software to allow you to use your PC tvcard to record your sorted. you need a PC with a decent amount of disk, tvcard (£60), digiguide(£4.99 per year) and the recording software (around $35 i think it was) all comming in significantly cheaper than the tivo, plus you can throw an extra hard drive at it if you find you need the space, or even burn your favourite tv series to CDrom or something :-} PS. if you have a tv card already you can always try out digiguide and the recording software, on shareware trial for 30days
-- Vagnerr - (www.vagnerr.com) Never attribute to malice that which can be adequately explained by stupidity.
I had been thinking about buying one for awhile, had it budgeted for next month.
Well don't let this stop you.. if the money is already earmarked, you can always buy a ReplayTV for about the same money. It's interesting to me after reading a lot of messages today that there isn't much talk about Tivo's non-subscription based comepetitor. I looked at all 3 major PVR's and decided among other things that ($0 < $10)/month was pretty cool. As such, I've been quite happy with mine for a few months now.
It's probably a little OT, but I'd be curious to hear why a lot of folks appear to be sold on Tivo over Replay (well--aside from today, of course). Is Replay not as widely available? Is there a killer-feature missing? (always curious how the other half lives)
Instead of just fluff, like FM radio, how about the change of the engine control software to add a speed limiter that can not be suspended unless you subscribed to a safe driver course needing monthly issues. You can still drive your car safely. You can even go up to 30 MPH! I think your description is right on. A 30 minute record feature is like a speed limiter. It forces the non-subscriber to much less than the full functionality of the hardware. Non subscribed TVIO's will be like the cripled cars. They are useful for the occasional trip to the corner 7-11 and nothing else. I expect to find them cheap in the local classified ads.
The truth shall set you free!
I think it's time to remove all software of the TVIO boxes and get OSS replacement software written. Please keep me posted. You paid nothing for the new upgrade version of the software and it's worth every cent.
The truth shall set you free!
RTFL. Or at least RTFL more carefully. He didn't have it dial in because he was too lazy to set the clock himself. He had it dial in because he couldn't set the clock himself. TiVo doesn't let you set the clock on your own. You have to dial in! If it weren't for this one little camel's nose under the edge of the tent, he wouldn't have had it dial in.
At this point, I'm glad I never got around to getting one of these things. This, plus the other thing I've heard they've tried (putting a commercial on the screen during pause) shows that they care more about money than their customers.
I'll wait for a more "open" solution.
--
"Open source is good." - Steve Jobs
"Open source is evil." - Microsoft
Since the TiVo is basically a computer anyways, would it be possible to just remove all of the proprietary software, install Linux, write a driver for the remote and mpeg card, and have an open source interface?
As this reads, this 'upgrade' attempts to mainstream the geek technophilic black sheep into the rest of the ignorant flock. From a business perspective, it makes perfect sense.. Why should a select few get some benefit of the product that Tivo does not yet SELL to everyone?
Sorry, but the technocratic elite is getting it's wings clipped once again. Not unlike the myth of Icarus, really.. We should be used to it by now.
The REAL jabber has the /. user id: 13196
The REAL jabber has the user id: 13196
What you do today will cost you a day of your life
Because of TiVo's deceptive advertising, apparently.
CEE5210S The signal SIGHUP was received.
I don't see what TiVo has over ReplayTV if TiVo's going to make them into doorstops with stealth downgrades if you don't pay. Isn't that essentially the same thing? If anything, ReplayTV gets points for truth in pricing, while TiVo loses points for deceptive marketing.
CEE5210S The signal SIGHUP was received.
This is great... From the first story the guy is obviously angry that Tivo can get his information:
"they download all sorts of information, like what you watch, how long you watch it, even the buttons you press on the remote and the amount of time between each button press!..."
Then he follows this up with:
"I will be posting a log file that was saved on the TiVo to be sent to them over the phone line. Check back soon... "
Under UK law, the customer's contract of purchase is with the supplier, not the manufacturer. The goods go back to the shop and the customer is entitled to a refund.
I don't know if there are equivalent rules in the USA but I think the guy should take the unit back to the shop. If they won't take it and give a refund, he should sue the shop.
No matter what they dial, you can pick it up on the other side, just like it was their server answering.
MadCow.
I used to have a sig, but I set it free and it never came back.
One example of this is Microsoft's Asheron's Call, where you had to spend 50 dollars in the store for the software and then PAY to play it online, you could ONLY play it online ... why be forced to pay? Games like Lineage and Neocron (will) give their software out for free and only charge for use. The Dreamcast game Phantasy Star Online you buy the software and then get to use it for FREE on the SEGA servers. What is wrong with this picture?
Help Brendan pay off his student loans
There is a difference though. What if GM made cars that could ONLY use Super America gas, or worse yet, GM Brand gas ... they wouldn't get far. When you by a telephone you are generally not buying it from the company, you don't buy your light bulbs from the power company and you don't buy your water heater from the gas company. You have a choice of where you go from many of these choices (other then the utilities). When you are driving your car you have a choice of getting gas at any number of places, such an option does not exist for TiVo but I can use almost any ISP with my DSL modem.
Help Brendan pay off his student loans
Everyone knows that TiVo is either losing money or barely breaking even on the sale of their boxes - subscriptions are their bread and butter. They therefore have nothing to gain by letting them operate at all without a subscription. In fact, those are essentially lost sources of revenue.
TiVo's plan is obviously to annoy non-subscribers into subscribing. Unfortunately, I know that if someone tried to do that to me, I'd kick that fuckin' box to the curb.
Oh well, I'm wasting my time on this post anyway. It's probably the 400th one by now.
One thing that struck me from my quick review of the referenced thread is that the moderators (TiVo reps) sure did take an insolent tone in the forum. Obviously, a lot of people are upset with them. I'd be upset, too, if I had one of these things. The fact that TiVo's response is so inflamatory ("screw you guys, you're not really our customers") doesn't help the situation.
How about putting a good face on your company, guys? Try being a little consolatory. Apologize for any confusion. Explain what provisions in the license agreement allowed TiVo to disable unsubscribed boxes. Thank the users that are currently paying for your service. Try making the rest of us feel like we might want to do business with your company at some point.
I, for one, won't be purchasing a TiVo unit anytime soon.
Wow... the idea of using the TiVo without the subscription plan is a good one. I never thought about it and I was happy paying the service fee. But I'll be even happier probably not paying the service fee. Heh.. this is just like hearing all about the Napster lawsuits... then going out and trying Napster to see what it was all about. The rest of that story is written in the stacks of burned CD's on my desk.
I am Jack's HTTP Server
what about short-leashware or just leashware? same thing, but I've more often heard "she's got you on the short leash" than I've heard "she's got you on the tether"
terradot, growing awareness
Actually, Tivo can give you a choice of recording from the beginning of the program (including what's in the rewind buffer) OR dumping the rewind buffer and recording just the live input (the old functionality.) I'm not sure why they couldn't have continued using the old behavior for serviceless customers-- this would have been scarcely more work than the solution they adopted ("sorry, Dave I can't do that.") Disabling the functionality entirely demonstrates utter disregard for the commitment to service-free operation they advertise in their literature.
I don't own a Tivo, so I don't know for sure, but aren't you supposed to *pay* for the directory listings? It's no wonder the Tivo folks made that go away for non-paying customers. As for the one-touch recording going away with version 2.0 of the software, that does sound a bit draconian. Can't see why that would require a data subscription.
I have a friend who's a project manager at Tivo, and she tells me that they make no money on the hardware itself. They depend on subscriptions to the service to make money, which probably explains why they're starting to crack down. I've got to ask her about the other issues, now that my curiosity is piqued.
Read the story before you post.
According to the article, TiVo (the company) executed a forced/push upgrade on TiVo (the unit) during a nightly download of user information which disabled useful features that were previously available on a nonsubscription consumer electronics device. This isn't installing a buggy Service Pack XX (R) and complaining. This is a spam listserv without an opt-in/opt-out feature.
-----
Bow before my sig, for it is good.
Now you could maybe argue that TiVo's engineers should have accounted for that case and fallen back to the old behavior so as to not break their legacy non-subscriber users. But you know, as someone who wants his TiVo service to keep running as long as possible, I can't work up all that much enthusiasm for the idea of TiVo spending engineering and QA resources supporting customers who're costing them money (they were losing money on every unit sold for a while, maybe still are, and making it back in subscription fees).
Then again, the idea of using a TiVo without the program guide is strange to me to begin with, so clearly I just don't get it. The guide is one of the nicest things about the unit; I have stopped knowing or caring exactly when most of the shows I watch are downloaded to its disk, and network schedule shuffling doesn't mess me up unless it's so last-minute that the listing service doesn't get notified. If you want to manually set your record timers, a VCR is cheaper.
Frankly, I consider the fact that the unit works at all without the service to be an unexpected bonus; the box was clearly designed and intended to be used with the service, and doing otherwise, it seems to me, is just asking for this kind of thing to happen over time.
Geez, the company that made my VCR seems to be doing just fine without requiring me to subscribe to a service, or stiffing me for a monthly fee...I guess TiVo's business model must suck the high hard one.
Have you ever tried to call the company that makes your VCR and ask them to record a show for you, because the time changed and you forgot to reset the timer ? Chances are good they would laugh at you. For that $10 a month fee (which is hardly stiffling), my TiVO records the TV shows I like and even knows when they have been prempted so I don't miss the last 15 minutes (I hate that). I can set it up to record shows with certain actors or directors. It makes some pretty good guesses about shows I might like to watch and records them, based on what It knows I like to watch. It use to be I paid $65 a month for 200 channels of Digital cable and nothing was ever on. Now with TiVO there is always something waiting for me when I get home from work. This works so well for me I bought the lifetime subscription. I highly recomend the TiVO, because once you've had one you never want to go back.
Fascism should more properly be called corporatism, since it is the merger of state and corporate power - Benito Mussoli
But then I think that's true of *all* TV - that it's really not that important to get my panties in a wad about it - so I guess I'm in the minority.
You are right, if you don't like television, TiVO has nothing to offer you.
Fascism should more properly be called corporatism, since it is the merger of state and corporate power - Benito Mussoli
At least in your scenario, you're allowed to keep driving the BMW until it breaks down for whatever reason. This is a case of the company (TiVo) enforcing the changes on whoever it could connect to, in order to milk more money from those who refuse to pay for something you get in your daily paper or the Internet. That would be like BMW sneaking mechanics into your garage at night to take out your muffler and converter, and then forcing you to buy their new integrated part...and if you stop paying them ten bucks a month, they sneak the mechanics in and take it out.
"What's so random about flipping a coin? Ever heard of the I Ching?"
Actually get something back? You mean, like the hundreds of dollars it costs to buy the thing in the first place? Geez, the company that made my VCR seems to be doing just fine without requiring me to subscribe to a service, or stiffing me for a monthly fee...I guess TiVo's business model must suck the high hard one.
And as for paying for entertainment, I believe that's called the 'cable' bill. On top of that are 'commercials', which I have to suffer through even though I pay the 'cable' bill, and even though there are *more* of them now than there were in the pre-cable days when every channel was broadcast over the airwaves *for free*.
(And you KNOW you'd be better off without the internet. Just ask your Grandma whether you should screw around on the net or read a book, I doubt she'd direct you to your computer).
Max
My god carries a hammer. Your god died nailed to a tree. Any questions?
Well, by golly! I already have those options with my VCR. It involves two steps: - checking the weekly listings - setting my VCR to record I don't watch enough TV to actually need 6 hours of tape, so I don't even have to swap casettes during the week. All this takes 5-10 minutes. Guess I don't need a TiVo after all. Max
My god carries a hammer. Your god died nailed to a tree. Any questions?
I suppose if TV matters that much to you, then go for it. I never cared enough about the programming to think I had to 'safeguard' against anything. I figure if I forget to record something, it must not have been that important to begin with.
But then I think that's true of *all* TV - that it's really not that important to get my panties in a wad about it - so I guess I'm in the minority.
Max
My god carries a hammer. Your god died nailed to a tree. Any questions?
Personally I am not sure whether this is legal, since you have purchased this equipment, along with the original features, and as long as they're not bugs but real functionality that isn't replaced in the upgrade with something comparable then it seems to me that is just plain simple theft, no matter if they break into your frontdoor, your window or through your modem or network connection.
I'm cynical enough to think that these companies will charge for the data if they think there's money to be made. Even if it looks free, the subscribers will pay for it in slightly increased rates.
--Mike
By the way, totally offtopic: in respect to consoles, pick up a Gameboy Advance. It rocks. I'm spending more time with it than I spend with my Playstation 2.
It's even like they stop selling the old muffer and go out one night and remove all the old ones off peoples cars so that in the morning they'll all have to buy the new ones from ya.
I'm sorry, but what exactly is "vengeful" about my message? Predicting the demise of a company because the market they are in doesn't have a high barrier to entry may be uncomfortable for the company involved, but otherwise, it's simply factual. To me, TiVo doesn't seem any different from a lot of other recent startups in that regard. If you disagree on my conclusions, maybe you can explain why.
BTW, I don't own a TiVo. I had digital TV recording available to me years before TiVo came out, but I hardly ever watch TV anyway.
The only way they could justify any decent stock valuation is with a profitable "subscription model". Sooner or later, more consumers are going to figure out that they just don't need the company.
I think you can expect a flood cheap, hardware-only TiVo-like devices in a year or two from Asian manufacturers, in addition to a lot of PC-based recording. There will probably be free, simple, non-proprietary web-based lookups of program information and broadcasters and cable stations will increasingly make that information available in a standard format. That will be followed by a lot of huffing by TiVo about how their "innovation" isn't properly rewarded and some nuisance patent suits by them that they probably shouldn't win. In the long run, TiVo will likely just disappear. If the investors are lucky, some generous or desparate consumer electronics giant will pick them up.
You would want people to stop thinking about the problem because it might violate DMCA? Pfft. There's no law against brainstorming. Perhaps by entertaining all possible solutions to the problem, a 'moral' solution can be found (after all, one thing leads to another). Contribute to the technical aspect of the conversations (if you can), but save the sh*t-house lawyer stuff for people who care. Encourage people to think, yrricde. Its for the best.
UNIX *is* user-friendly. Its just more selective on who its friends are. --Scott Adams
Wow.. this is a great idea to not use the TiVo service with a recorder... ;)
Glad I thought of it
Opnotic's Opus
To anyone who feels screwed by this whole Tivo thing: Make sure you fill out the Federal Trade Commission's Online Consumer Complaint Form. Here's the URL: https://rn.ftc.gov/dod/wsolcq$.startup?Z_ORG_CODE= PU01
If you've never owned a TiVo, this story might come as a shock. But the reality of it is, nobody in their right mind uses a TiVo without the service. The "$400" he paid for his unit pays for the hardware from Philips (honestly, he paid too much, I got a 30-hour unit for $230). TiVo currently subsidizes each unit sold, they lose money until people subscribe to the service. So it makes sense that they'd want to practically force people to use it. Frankly it was surprising that it EVER worked at all without the service. This is nothing new. Go to www.tivocommunity.com, you'll find an exhausting amount of posts about this change. For the rest of the TiVo loving world who actually pays, we continue to enjoy a fantastic life-changing product. If you want to subscribe to this FUD, it's your loss. Go ahead and kill TiVo, a company who's developed software that runs on Linux, and is open to hacking. We'll always be able to fall back on UltimateTV from Microsoft, or ReplayTV that *cannot be purchased* without service built into the price.