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Windows XP: Prices, And One Reaction
Jim42688 writes: "Looks like the prices Amazon was reporting for Windows XP a while back were right. On the back of today's ad for CompUSA, it lists the prices to preorder. Home Full, 199.99, Home Upgrade, 99.99. Professional full, 299.99, Professional upgrade, 199.99." Perfect timing -- Fwis writes: "Use your power as a consumer to Boycott XP.
The site is now functioning smoothly, and we invite you to log in and
participate in discussions, polls, and news stories related to Microsoft's release
of the XP line of products." There are some interesting links on this page if you (or someone with purchasing power at your company) is considering XP.
i'm a windows user... i'm sorry...
... please read the WHOLE THING before flaming, becuase it says it's winxp rc2, but it's so much slower it shouldn't matter.
& p= 3
but anyway, check out these benchmarks of win2k vs winXP
http://www.anandtech.com/IT/showdoc.html?i=1501
Runnin' On Empty
I'll just pirate. Anyone know where I can get an .iso for Office XP and Windows XP?
C:\>ping www.boycottxp.com
Pinging boycottxp.com [209.75.39.140] with 32 bytes of data:
Request timed out.
Request timed out.
Request timed out.
Request timed out.
Personally, I'm waiting for WindowsRG.
5 49_winrg2.swf
http://www.newgrounds.com/portal/uploads/27000/27
For the record:
I don't care paying for quality software (I've just spend 100 pounds ~ 130$ I guess, for Mathematica For Students, Linux edition) because I know there are some niches were free software isn't good enough yet.
Make It Secret . Free JavaScript implementation of AES for your browser
wtf for? If you don't like it, don't use it. But really, rabble rousing and grass-root pogroming support for a 'boycott' of an OS is just plain idiotic. Whoever thought this 'boycott' was a good idea had better step away from their computer for a while and consider it long and hard. Because it really does look like a case of little man syndrome- vicious hatred of winners and success for no other reason than to spite it...
Someone please explain why their is a freakin boycott?
/. boycottxp.com. Is that a record, or did the site go down right after posting by coincidence?
Show by example, good idea!
Slashdotted on Sunday.
Yes I know Windows XP will have may things that many people don't like. I for one though think it's more good than bad. Since it puts NT and 9x together I'm kind of glad that a lot of home users will now have an actual stable OS. I think that's a bigger thing than a bunch of features that many of I will most likely never use.
One thing I do think about sometimes. A lot of linux distibutions come with various programs already on them that do things like cd burning and such. Now Windows comes along with new things built in. Before you would have to go get the program seperately. With linux it was already in there depending on what distribution you have. Now with XP these come with the OS. It's not exactly the same thing but still it kinda makes me think sometimes.
I will add though that I do think those prices are a little too high.
http://www.maximum-cars.com - My little hobbie.
warez
did we overload it?
Robby Russell
PLANET ARGON
Robby on Rails
Less than a day after my post about how the "Boycott X" sentiment is a complete waste of time! Of course it was moderated down as a troll because I hurt some idiot's feelings.
Of course the Slashdot crowd will say they're boycotting XP. Anybody on this board who has every actually purchased a Microsoft product, raise your hand. Warez and computers that have windows pre-installed do not count. Come on, let's see those hands...
Oh, look, nobody!
Hypocrites.
Linux... Priceless
I got a copy of XP Pro (2600/final) last week from the usual suspects.. Installed it, played around with it for a day or two, formatted it away. XP is far too sugar coated for me and I think most slashdotter's that give it a try will say the same. You can turn some of it off but not enough. I like Win2k better and that is where I'll stay for awhile. XP isn't for me.
MS is a monopoly... proven
MS has done "bad things"... proven
MS is still doing those "bad things"... proven
MS has added more "bad things"... shown
Why give them right to entrench these practics again, and fill the war chests...
Buy votes
Hire more lawyers
Well?
The page for Home Full states that WindowsXP won't be ready until "Thursday, November 01, 2401".
Oh well, at least M$ isn't pushing the envelope...
I think what pushed me off the fence was this:
I have been a Microsoft desktop OS user since after Windows 95 came out. Before that I used OS/2 1.3, 2.0, 2.1 and 3. Unfortunately they lost.
Here's what pushed me over the edge:
I need a hotmail account to get features to work. After updating to IE 5.5 SP2 quicktime 'broke'. Java VM is being removed and the users are left up to select their own. Windows Media Player is ingrained in the OS as bad as IE now, and I never have liked it.
I'm working hard on designing a desktop platform that my wife can use, and once that happens over the next few weeks, There will not be a Windows machine in my house on any of my 8 computers.
As a rock-in-roll Physicist once said, No matter where you go, there you are.
Ummm... sucko, the reason everyone is complaining is because the home version is really crippled compared to even windows 98 or ME. and who wants to pay for a brain-dead upgrade with a pretty face?
its not linux, heance evil...
Insightful but Overrated Troll
Well I would boycott but considering that I'm not even interested in upgrading ever to any future version of windows it would be a lie to say that I'm boycotting it. I dual boot linux and windows. Right now linux seems to satisfy all my needs so I do not need a new windows.
Wow it's amazing how well this ties in with all the anti-ms bullshit that has been floating around slashdot lately.
Boycott XP? What the fuck. You're either going to buy it, or you're not. I seriously doubt they are going to change the price over a few measly boycotters.
They're pretty much assured all their clients will be running XP. Like when 95 came out, everyone switched. If you didn't you missed out on a lot of software because 3.1 couldn't run it.
So how about ya'll clam up. If you don't like it don't buy it.
Gracias.
You're nothing; like me.
Ok folks, we've got the site back up, we'd love to hear what you have to say!
Lets see...Modified UI to make it look slightly different than the last version of windows? Yup. Lots of monopoly leveraging technologies designed to crush smaller companies ekeing out a living? Oh yeah. Requires an upgrade to the latest hardware? Bingo. Slower than the last release by a good factor? You bet. All I see, despite all the hype(that many slashdotters are buying into), is just another useless windows release. One that to the regular consumer, means more money down the tubes for hardware they don't really need to check their E-mail, and write letters in Wordpad. Of course, Microsoft will be kept afloat by the 'oh but this ones based on NT! It's stable!' fanboys out there, but anybody who has seen NT in action knows it's inadequacy on older hardware, and people are finally getting used to the idea that they don't really need the latest version of windows or the latest processor for what they do.
Personally, if support for windows 9x dropped to a certain level, I'd just stop using windows altogether. To be perfectly honest, as soon as I can play the majority of my windows games using linux and my savage4 accellerator on another, non MS OS, I'll drop windows altogether. I'm just sick and tired of seeing microsoft pushing it's competitors out the window by including it's own version of an existing utility.
I own original copies of OS/2, Beos, Caldera Opendos, and Linux Redhat. I also downloaded Xgui, Gimi, and a host of other shells. My opinion? I don't have enough choice still. I could run Xdos on my 8088 and still run dos apps. Why is it so hard for the US DOJ to crack this obviously abused (on a regular baisis) monopoly?
Oh yes, and look at every windows release -- you'll see a huge group trying to fool themselves that 'THIS one will be good!'. They existed in winME, why not this one?
It's been a long time.
really crippled compared to 9x? how so?
These are hard times. Everyone has to learn to do more with less. The IT department is not exempt from this economic reality. The CIO who blows the budget on the fastest new computers and the latest bloated commercial software had best keep his resume up to date.
"I didn't get rich by writing a lot of checks!" -- "Bill Gates" on The Simpsons
How in the hell is this preventing piracy when all the real pirates have circumvented it? Does MS really think the pirates are so ghettoized that these no need to activate versions will not proliferate in the face of privacy concerns to every reasonable citizen out there (all 20000 of them)?
Link to Betanet
An Education is the Font of All Liberty
MS-Win95b is acceptably stable given enough RAM, HD and maintenance. The only thing that has caused me to upgrade a few to Win98 is USB cameras not installing on 95.
MS-WinNT may be more stable, but some hardware and software still refuses to run under it. I believe XP is an NT descendant, so I'd worry about this.
Upgrading is fine for journalists who have stories to write, and for other software reviewers. I just don't know why the rest of us should upgrade. To get a bunch of bugfixes & security patches? Feh! If I need'em, I'll get them separately.
If this software is good, then buy it, use it and enjoy it! Then again, if it is just a piece of crap, don't buy it, use it -or enjoy it! It is up to you! Boycotting a great piece of software just because it is made by M$ is wrong I think. I have never tried XP, and propably never going to buy it, but if it is good, people should have the right to use it, and maybe we can learn from it and improve out favourite penguin or devil-OSes ...
Find nice cocktail recipes @ www.spitzy.net
How humiliating. The site is still down.
Give me a break.. a bunch of linux users don't like microsoft. How fucking often do we need to visit this? Oh wow!! linux users aren't going to buy microsoft products!! WOW that's a suprise!! I never expected that. But not buying them isn't enough, you need to form a support group to complain and rationalize it?!?! Give me a break and get a life.
Seriously, are we approaching the day that windows will cost more than the computer it runs on for most people?
Shut up, be happy. The conveniences you demanded are now mandatory. -- Jello Biafra
"To abstain from or act together in abstaining from using, buying, or dealing with as an
expression of protest or disfavor or as a means of coercion."[dictionary.com]
"An expression of disfavor"? Okay, it might be a stress release, but unlikely to accomplish much.
Or fighting coercion with coercion? Lame and hypocritcal. (The ability to coerce is one of qualities people dislike in a monopoly.)
The besty reason not to use Microsoft products : They're a Scientolgust conspiracy!
There's plenty of evidence :
All those two-letter product code NT, XP, ME are all scientologist jargon. OT "Office Two-thousand" is too.! See www.xenu.net
The disk defrag software is scientologist controlled! This was sufficient concern for the German government to ban it!
The "Satan" figure of Scientology is called Xinu (or Xemu, or Xenu). Clearly, this is a play on "unix". Scientology, and MS, is anti-unix!
Windows 2000 Professional, boxed product, is $249 at Amazon.com. As a pre-install, Windows 2000 Pro adds $99 to a Dell computer over Windows 98. XP at $299 is not a winner. The OEM deal has to be a lot better than this, or nobody will buy.
I thought XP was supposed to be when all the version merged together no more win9x/NT break. It still appears that we have seperate version, now they are just on the same release cycle. It used to be that it took 2 to 4 years for a new release to come out on each side of the calender, home and office alternating. Now it seems that microsoft has merged these cycles and I am betting that we will see OS release every year to 2 years.
A further note why are they releasing a home and an office (professional) version? How much difference can their possibly be? Were is the server vesion I have seen announced.
I think microsoft is going to be in real trouble over this release because of these factors. Installations of windows 2000 were slow due to the random releasing of server version and confussion over what to apply were. This is just going to compound the issue. I know they are trying to bolster OS sales (windows 2000 has never taken off) but this is not going to help at all.
Papa Legba come and open the gate
Hey, I'm an editor at boycottxp.com, we got hit hard there but we're back up now and we should stay that way. It might be a little slow at first but keep checking back as the traffic levels off. We're excited to hear what you have to say.
My Karma was at 49, then they switched to words. All that work for nothing!
Because unlike Win98 or WinME which are built on the unstable Win9x codebase, WinXP is built on the same codebase as NT4 and W2k. If WinXP even allows half of the Win9x apps that didn't run on W2k to run, it is well worth paying for the increased stability and application support.
W2k has not had any unexplained crashes on my system for a year. I have rebooted less than a dozen times this YEAR with w2k. There are application software problems, but they are predictable.
My only complaint with W2k is that many win9x applications are not compatible with it. WinXP (in the beta) appears to do a good job of solving that problem.
People just don't have the choice of not buying XP. As with most MS produce it will come pre-installed on most hardware. You'd have to go out of your way to buy a new system without windows - most people don't even know there are alternative OS's let alone be prepared to switch. People running ME/98 will most likely be tired of constant crashing etc. and will upgrade to XP. Microsoft will still have the big monopoly.. cough, market share.
People are paying for their own prison-cells. The things we saw in the development of XP (Secure music, weaning people off mp3s, raw sockets (the raw socket conspiracy theory)) are just the start, showing us what they really think.
This comment does not represent the views or opinions of the user.
A version of Windows XP (because the only reason I still use Windows is for my ATI-TV card, and to review computer games) that only has these features:
1. Basic OS/Gui.
2. Directx 8
That's it. I don't want a media player, a browser, or all of the other stuff. If they had this out, I'd pay $30 for it, and be perfectly happy. If I wanted the other pieces (browser, chat module, blah, blah, blah), I could choose whether to buy them from MS, or go and use something else (so an extra $15 for MS Explorer, or I could put Mozilla on the box).
Now everybody wins. MS is happy because it gets $30 from me (and the potential of more money if I choose to pay $99/$199 if I want all the bells an whistles), the DOJ is happy (because it makes a truly level playing frield, since other companies can compete with the other add-ons (at least in theory)), and I'm happy because I can review my games.
Of course, I could be wrong.
52 Weeks, 52 Religions with John Hummel
So can I upgrade from Windows 98 directly to XP or do I have to buy Windows ME and upgrade to that first?
Does anyone know about the "transparent encryption" that they talk about in the professional edition?
I realize it's not likely to be really strong, but if it's decent (and not critically flawed in implementation), it might be an incentive for me to upgrade eventually. I've never seen a good encryption scheme for Win that wasn't a major hassle. If you know of one I'd like to hear of that too.
I can't escape Windows because I write software for it occasionally, and need the ability to work with Word/Excel/Access file types.
I heard somewhere (but have no idea if its true) that the encryption requires a different file system be implemented (NTFS vs FAT32, IIRC). How would this affect an upgrade?
I would be very interesting denying Linux distributions include stuff other than the kernel. I would then like to see the sucess of such strategy. You blame Microsoft for including the IE in its OS, whereas the same time linux kernel extends itself (see khttpd) and linux distros like suse include plenty of CDs of free software (6+ I think)
Seems to me that even if everyone decides not to 'use' XP, at least most everyone will try it out. Slashdotters are a curious bunch and I doubt many will be able to keep their hands off of a warez copy of the OS. Like me, dling it now. =)
I would like to formally announce that I am boycotting the Audi A8 sedan. I feel that its list price of over $62,000 is entirely too high, and that it would be advantageous for consumers to buy a more practical sedan.
I would also like to announce the establishment of an Internet petition to urge Audi to stop selling cars. We as consumers cannot tolerate this excessively high pricing scheme!
Don't make me bring Ralph Nader into this. You saw what he did to Al Gore. Just wait until he starts fighting against corporations.
For more information, click here.
Well, mr. talk show host, I was talking to a friend who was testing this new version of Windows, and boy is it a dog"
[insert reasons that the talk show host can agree with]
just enough to poison the well. simple reasons for regular folks, like the whole Passport fiasco.
heck telling them the plain truth about the copy protection stuff and registration stuff will do the job.
now mind you, I would never do something like this, but you can't even make a copy for your kids machine, or for your wife. You got to buy a whole nother copy! I paid my money. I should be able to do what I want with it!
That should be good enough to do the job.
- - -
Radio Free Nation
an alternate news site based on Slash Code
"If You have a Story, We have a Soap Box"
"It is a greater offense to steal men's labor, than their clothes"
DId anyone else see the DMCA story repost about Time Warner cable? Now its gone? Wtf?
The ultimate network admin tool needs HELP!
So WindowsXP is going to sell for $199.
SO WHAT!
SQL Server is $1500. Who gives a shit? Why should I boycott XP just 'cause it's $199?
Why don't you people get a fucking life and quit bashing MS for no reason?
Karma...what's that? I just speak my mind.
AnandTech's review came out July 10, 2001. It looks like a typographical error by AnandTech. I doubt they installed an old version of XP to do the test.
Microsoft released RC2 on August 1. RC1 was released July 3.
Bush's education improvements were
Boycott makes sense if I would buy something but I don't in order to "punish" the manufacturer. How many slashdotters would buy Windows XP if not this boycott?
Microsoft did it again? Or at least they are
trying.
They tarnished the generally positive word of
windows to mean chances of getting your machined
hanged.
Now, they are trying to do the same to the practice
of eXtreme Programming (XP). Programs written
with strict adherence to XP should be compact
and powerful, not bloated and slow.
They must have taken the concept of paired
programming to the extreme. With all the
young boys and girls at Redmond fighting for
the keyboard, what a shame to paired programming.
Double the time waster, double the bloat!
WindowsXP Vs. Linux Mandrake: Some Aesthetic Observations is the title of this excellent article that I recommand to read.
The people that are going to boycott windows XP are going to be the ones that weren't going to buy it in the first place. Not that effective, eh?
Why boycotxp.com? Any bussiness is and should be free to set the prices however they like! The only exception are public services (water, electricity, health service) and Microsoft, thank god, hasn't reached that status, yet. So, if you don't like XP's price, don't use it!
That site sure is running great. It stays up for 2-3 minutes every hour. Linux sucks. Maybe he should consider an XP upgrade.
I'll boycott XP the same way Taco bocotts the RIAA and MPAA.
Off Topic.
./ story, too? Can anyone answer this? Has this ever happened before? Prettttty Ominous....
What the hell happened to the story about the woman who got her ISP account yanked because the MPAA complained to Time-Warner, her provider? It had a link to salon and everything.
Did the lawyers yank the
Ok, mod me down now, but please answer the question first.
SDMI: Finally! Music that won't rip or burn! Brought to you by the fine folks at RIAA.
I find it curious that people complain that microsoft bundles products when most major linux distros do the same. I'm sure getting free office software or free network software makes people not want to buy the commercial alternatives. In this regard perhaps we should boycott all linux distros as they hurt commercial software makers (am I starting to sound like microsoft?) :)
The Slashdot Effect: A new for
It's not boycotting if you weren't going to get Windows XP anyway.Well I guess their site has not fan base.
...when they find out that most people will say "there's no way I'm gonna pay $100 for winXP when win98SE fullfills all my needs".
This will ultimately hurt Microsoft. They exists on a basis build by the fact that so many people know MS' OS because thay pirated it. When people can't pirate it (because of new "smart" anti-piracy stuff in it) and are not willing to buy it, I guess they will somewhat modify the price for winXP.
I also think that many companies at some point will switch away from XP after their workstations for the 17'th time have become the tool of some 12-year old script kiddie doing all the fun stuff with raw sockets.
As a free OS (as it in reality is for many people) Windows is an excellent OS with outstanding support for hardware and tons of software, although it has some design flaws. As a non-free OS XP will never get into all the old win98 workstations.
I think it will only have a small effect in the way of moving people from MS' OS over to free OSes though. Most people (and the free OSes!) are not ready for that yet.
fear my zig!
Aside from the urge to boycott microsoft completely...
I'm quite happy with win2k as my MS platform. It's the best thing they've produced so far, and after hearing about some of the sugar-coating in XP, sounds like it still is.
Like I'm gonna switch (of course, they'll make their licensing prohibitively harsher... but we'll move to sunrays next)
-Elendale
IANAT (I Am Not A Troll)
Most of what you said I agree with but not "Of course, Microsoft will be kept afloat by the 'oh but this ones based on NT! It's stable!' fanboys out there, but anybody who has seen NT in action knows it's inadequacy on older hardware, and people are finally getting used to the idea that they don't really need the latest version of windows or the latest processor for what they do.
Firstly Joe Public probably only has the vaguest idea of what NT is, so there is limited mileage on the "based on NT" bandwagon.
Secondly NT is stable on older hardware - it's the more modern stuff that tends to trip it up (it really doesn't understand IR ports and USB very well). NT server on fairly standard hardware can easily have uptimes of more than a year (provided you don't and try and log on to the box - there is (or was - it may be fixed now) a memory leak in the GDI routines which breaks the explorer shell fairly terminally after about 6 months. All the services still work, but the box is a bit of a basket case if you need to do something interactive.
I'm not sure about people and new machines/OS. The machine I'm using now is triple boot box (Mandrake, Win98, W2K Advanced Server) with dual 350P2s and 256MB of ram. So fairly long in the tooth now. I've not seen anything that I want to do computer wise that I can't do on this box. So no reason to upgrade here. But I see lots of computers with a much higher spec being sold as the owner has upgraded to a more recent machine. What are these people doing with their machines?
So I think people may realise they don't need the new machine, but they still seem to want one. Then there is the monopoly leveraging that superwhizzy app only works on XP, to "encourage" people to upgrade to it.
and look at every windows release -- you'll see a huge group trying to fool themselves that 'THIS one will be good!'.
W2K was actually a good release. Probably too good. Having looked at XP from the server end (and particuarly the directory services bit of it, which is what I do at the moment) there is almost nothing that has changed that makes even a marginally compelling case for moving to XP. Of the top of my head the only change that is of note is how XP handles changes to group memberships (The gory details are that in the multimaster environment if person A is added to a group at DC1 and person B is removed from the same group later at DC2, but before the change had propogated from DC1 to DC2, this causes a conflict that is resolved by using the most recent change, which means neither A nor B are in the group after all the changes have replicated). This is a design flaw in how groups are stored and replicated in W2k (basically the group including all the members is replicated when changed in W2k, as opposed to deltas of the membership list which is how I think XP does it), but it isn't that hard to work around.
Through my university computer store I can buy MS products for $5 per CD. Is it worth it for $5?
--mcoker
In XP you can roll back schema changes too, I've just remembered. This is nice, and may save a little bit of time during testing (rollback as opposed to rebuild), but won't impact a production environment.
I finally installed Windows 2000 on my work PC and was - for the first time in the history of Windows - actually impressed with its performance and stability. For the first time ever, I wasn't rebooting my PC five times a day (which is a frustrating contrast to some of my Linux boxes that are approaching 1 year of uptime). I was so impressed with 2000's stability, that I installed it on my home PC and my girlfriend's laptop, which was experiencing the good old Win98 10-a-day reboot exercise.
So this article got me wondering if there was anything that XP would offer me in the future that just might coerce me to upgrade in the next year or so. So I found a link on MS's site that let me "Check my upgrade options" . I was shocked to see that the only upgrade path from Win 2000 is to the XP Professional Edition, which costs $100 more than the Home Edition.
Why is this the case? Isn't XP Professional is nothing more than the XP Home Edition with a few more add-ons? Anyone have any insight as to why MS restricts you from upgrading 2000 to XP Home Edition?
My money is on the fact that they figure only business and power users are using Windows 2000, so they just want to rape people for the extra $100. Upgrading my three Windows 2000 PCs to XP would cost me $600.
It'll be a cold day in hell before I shell out another $600 to MS.
Typical slashbots. All that vitriol, and MS is still doing great putting out quality products.
Hell, I'm going to boycott Gnome 2.x and KDE 3.x, so nyah!!!!
IMHO, I think MS has a plan to basically force all
businesses using Windows NT (possibly 9X) to XP, by using a similar tactic they used with Office XP. Businesses will either have to upgrade (by my best guess June 2002) or loose the upgrade pricing. MS will also announce that they are dropping support for WIN NT. This will box businesses into a corner, but it will make Win XP a financial success.
I don't know of any business (and I work with some of the biggest) who want to upgrade. Most of the Fortune 100 has not upgraded to Win 2K, and are quite happen remaining with NT since it has become fairly stable for a Desktop OS. Microsoft has already stopped releasing Service Packs for NT and its only a matter of time before support for NT is dropped. For instance SP 7 for NT was to be release in May. It never happened. Now you have apply individual hotfixes to patch NT.
Boycotting is irrelevant because it won't affect MS's bottom line. Your probably not going to have a choice with in a year anyway, because you won't see any driver updates or patches released for the older OS's. It won't surprise me if Windows ME/2000 contains timebomb bugs in them so that in 2003 all kinds of bugs start appearing in system. Since no one except for MS has access to the source code, how can you proof it?
At this time, the MS OS have matured to a point where it has just about ever feature imaginable. The only way MS can continue its revenue stream is either by FORCING customers to upgrade or by a subscription service.
Our best option is through support for Open Source Projects to provide an alternate to MS. Support can come in many, many ways. For instance, donations of cash or even equipment to Open Source projects can help. Don't tell me you can't afford to send in $25 or $30 a year for a donation. You don't have to be a programmer to help out either. Can you do art, create audio effects, or write documentation? Don't waste your time boycotting, when you can support your favorate Open Source Project!
Thanks for reading this!
Won't be long before the OS costs more than the hardware.
Hell, ask anyone... Using Linux probably has never been easier. I, for the first time, installed Red Hat 7.1 a few weeks ago... Until then, I had been a diehard Windows user... Not because I wanted to be, mind you, but because I didn't think I could use Linux, or that it could replace my desktop.
So I yanked out my Windows HD, put in a clean one, and installed Red Hat. Hell, it astonishingly simple. The biggest problem I had was KDE or Gnome? But then I started using it...
I'm not a completely naive Windows user... I mean, I read Slashdot, right? But when you have to spend 75% of your time reading websites and manuals and going back and forth to websites and trying to figure out the terminal, and... Well, it's frustrating. Too frustrating.WindowsXP makes things easier for the average, not so bright computer user. People won't have to upgrade, they'll buy new PCs with XP already on it. And they won't even bother to ask "Can I get Red Hat, or Mandrake, or Slackware on that?" And the reason is simple. Despite the fact the MS is a monopolistic megolith, along with groupls like the MPAA and the RIAA and others who eat away at people's freedoms (to choose, to speak, whatever), they (WE!) will tolerate it because there isn't a better choice. And until someone designs a new operating system, one that can run Windows programs, and offers the ease of use that Windows does, you'll never have a real alternative to Windows.
I'm an economist(-in-training). I know that competition drives prices down, and forces product quality up. But if someone doesn't come along and design an alternative, all we'll ever get to do is sit here, bitch about it on Slashdot, and feel sorry for people that don't know the difference.
I'm going to keep using Red Hat. Not full time, not even half time. But I'm going to try to learn to be proficient on something that isn't Windows, so I don't have to use Windows. But in the end, it's just a hobby, and I'll keep coming back to /dev/hda1, where I keep Windows.
-Josh
For instance, with my W98SE box, I can login to my Windows 2000 Server box and join the domain I set up there. It's not the same support as my W2K Pro box, but the differences are technical minutiae.
You won't be able to do that with XP Home. The only networking XP Home will be able to do is peer-to-peer, NetBEUI over TCP/IP. XP Home will NOT be able to join a domain, period. They're doing this to force companies with 2K domains to buy Pro rather than Home.
One good thing: W2K Pro CDs will drop down in price at the computer fairs when XP arrives. It's faster and better than XP and it makes 9x feel like the toy OS it is. So far, no BSODs here at Catseye Labs with W2K.
One day, we will be able to stand back and see that 2K was the high-water mark for M$ operating systems. With all the unnecessary crap that M$ is loading into XP, the ugly interface, Product Activation, phoning home, etc. etc. etc, M$ is basically doing to itself what the DOJ couldn't do. Now is the time for Linux to get its act together and make a desktop experience that is easier, better and faster than XP. Shouldn't take much. Mandrake with KDE is almost there, IMHO.
Knowledge is power. Knowledge shared is power multiplied.
And, also, sex is not really neceessary.
Cozmo's Top 10 Reasons why Windows XP is the best desktop OS ever
;)
10) Remote assistance lets support people connect to people's
machines and fix problems over the internet.
9) Locking toolbars: No more accidently fucking up your IE toolbars
or your taskbar. They stay where you want them.
8) Cookie management in the new IE. You can block and accept cookies
to your liking based on hostnames. So.. you can let hotmail write
cookies, but choose to block some random ad site from doing it.
7) New visual themes in explorer. New "skins" that let windows different.. finally.
6) "My Computer" can be on the start bar now (the new default) so you
no longer have to minimize everything and search for that stupid icon
on your desktop. It kicks ass once you get used to it.
5) Compatibility modes let your programs run thinking they're in
win9x, win95, windows2000, etc so that things that wouldn't normally
work, will.
4) The new task oriented shell. It is nice once you get used to it. If you open a
directory of pictures it will let you view a slideshow of them, print
them, etc. If you open a folder of mp3s it has tasks on the left
that will let you burn them to audio cd, play them, etc.
3)No reboots required to install or detect hardware (most of the
time)I've been spoiled by this one. In fact the number of reboots has been cut down to ~10% of what they used to be. I think win2k sucks now
2) Built in cd burning. Burn data cds in the shell or audio cds in media player. Very convenient especially for users that would normally not be able to figure out how to burn a cd.
1.5) Remote desktop. Uses terminal services ala win2k server, except you can take over the desktop on the remote machine. It supports more colors than the win2k version,and even does sound. It is like vnc only it is actually fast and redraws the screen properly.
1) It is replacing that hunk of shit Win9x/me
--I assume full responsibility for my actions, except the ones that are someone else's fault.
I am a diehard daily user of one of the BSD's, but I am no fool, I keep an install of win2k around, as it's the only ms opsys that I can tolerate, and one would have to be a pretty myopic computer user to think that unix is the ONLY solution (I do think it's the best, but I'm not pretentious enough to think I'll never need to use it or won't at least need windows experience)...but anyway..2k isn't all that bad, I just wish ms wouldn't use their Operating Systems to push their ideology down user's throats and keep competition down at the same time
The private buyer pays a far, far higher price for Microsoft products than do large manufacturers.
Microsoft's major buyers are large manufacturers. Microsoft does what they want, which is make slower systems that require more powerful hardware.
Note that Microsoft no longer gives a full CD with every computer. You get only a recovery CD. If you use it, you must re-install all your applications.
Bush's education improvements were
Businesses will move because they want the perception of support/patches/upgrades. Try downloading IE4 so you can put the desktop upgrade onto Win95/NT sometime..
"Lets see...Modified UI to make it look slightly different than the last version of windows? Yup. Lots of monopoly leveraging technologies designed to crush smaller companies ekeing out a living? "
Two things. One I read today that Wells Fargo is deploying Windows, and that they will not be using Luma, the new FUI. And for one of the reasons that Windows zealots use against Linux. "The interface is different, users will not be able to handle it." Also note what is now intergrated that was formally third-party. Microsoft keeps that up and soon the applications market for windows will be very thin indeed.
...as I am running the final very fine on my p3/450 @ 517, 128 mb ram.
Mental Illness Patrol -- Acting out hostile feelings.
person tried Win2k... liked it. Bought 2 copies for home use. Was happy with purchase. Sees no reason to upgrade to XP. Cost is a major factor when "NEED" is not a big deal. Cost is not so much a factor when you "NEED" something more reliable (he didn't mind the price of win2k cuz he thought it was worth it).
/. and I absolutely LOATHE the idea of upgrading any of my clients to XP, and will actually recommend AGAINST it. (fyi, it has nothing to do with some lameass "boycott" website that looks strangely similar to /.)
Although, I'd have to say that instead of "XP pro being nothing more than XP home with a few more add-ons" would better be described as follows: "XP Home nothing more than XP Pro with all the good stuff ripped out."
Also, if they're banking on businesses as the cash cow for XP, they're going to be in for a rather expensive wake-up call. Hell, I could be considered a MS ass-kisser by most people who post to
Protector of Capitalist views,
Meorah
much of this is flat out not true.
1) the UI is totally themeable. Of course linux has had this for a long time, but this is a definite improvment.
2) Of course it requires an upgrade. New versions of windows are not meant to run on legacy hardware. a new 1300$ computer gets you a 1GHz machine with all the fixins. When was the last time a major system upgrade came out that _didn't_ slightly newer hardware? You can say "linux 2.2 -> 2.4" all you want, but that's not comparable. I tried to look up redhat 6 and redhat 7 specs, but they don't list them. My guess is, they went up.
3) you forget to mention that XP is based on the NT kernel, but with the hardware / game support of the 98 base. Every anecdote I've read online says that for the average 98 user, XP is a godsend. It doesn't crash nearly as much. MS has finally ditched DOS, and this is a good thing. Is it as stable as linux? probably not. But an improvement over 98 is an improvement.
4)Windows ME has been panned by lots and lots of people. Everyone knew it was a stupid service pak with a price tag. It sucks.
With that said, I won't be buying XP. I use linux fulltime, with a rare trip to NT 4 for video editing (old card / old drivers). I have 98 sitting around for the rare quicktime file and games, but otherwise... I can't justify the upgrade price. A bunch of overmodded uninformed trolling isn't going to do any good, however.
I know it's a pipe dream, but I'd like to try. The problem is now that XP is coming 2000 won't be available anymore and amazingly enough all the 'cool' stuff won't work with it.
It's just frustrating. I hate hotmail and I don't want to have a 'passport' to use software on my computer(s)
As a rock-in-roll Physicist once said, No matter where you go, there you are.
Not totally transparent, since you have to "mount" the drives (actual partitions or just a virtual drive saved in a file), but E4M is a wonderful (free, OS) encryption scheme that works across all windows versions (although win98 has a shutdown bug).
Price is right, and it works fine for me. Although NTFS has a built-in encryption on its filesystem that is truly transparent, but since I can't see the code behind it, I don't trust it.
I dont bother to upgrade software unless what I have isn't working. Win98se runs all the productivity software I've purchased, supports my hardware, and runs my favorite games. I have no compelling reason to spend my hard earned money on a product that from what I understand, benifits MS more than me.
It was like that when I got here.
It seems most people on this FUD factory believe:
1) Microsoft won't sell many copies of XP becuase people think their current Windows system is fine.
2) Microsoft's products aren't very good.
How can those both be true? If they were poor products people would be switching or upgrading.
I don't know who's pulling the strings over at Microsoft these days but XP is far and away the best piece of MS software (and probably the best piece of software period) I have even used (yes, I'm using a bootleg :). Win2000/9x and Linux don't even compare (OSX looks nice, but awfully confusing and slow as hell). Anyways, XP is incredibly stable (I've been install software, hardware, messing with everything, and it hasn't crashed or slowed down a bit in 3 days). It's also incredibly fast, definitely a big improvement over 9x and Linux... apps are much faster, and games are faster and definitely much smoother. It's stunningly beautiful (fade effects, transparency, etc.) but in no way slow or skippy. Multi user support is the best there is. The tasked-based approach is a bit half assed but definitely better than anything else out there (no more digging through 4 layers of 'start' 'k' or 'g' panels to find the apps I use).
An upgraded OS with tonnes of new features that's 1. Faster and 2. More stable than the previous version... has this ever happened before... EVER!?! :)
Does it make up for the shit they've been selling us all these years? I don't know, but it's a long way towards getting there. As for the annoying security features, if you wrote something this good you probably wouldn't want people stealing it either (and if you're really determined you still can: I did).
>I was shocked to see that the only upgrade path from Win 2000 is to the XP Professional Edition, which costs $100 more than the Home Edition.
Does anybody know the history of DOS/Windows pricing?
It seems hardware competition is fierce; greater functionality and lower prices to the point of putting memory manufacturers out of business.
I'd like to see a comparison between PC hardware and MS OS prices.
Does anybody know a link to this info?
When I die, please cast my ashes upon Bill Gates -- for once, make him clean up after me!
I'm not really in a position to boycott it since I have to write software for it. From what I've seen it's not too bad, and has some new features that W2k didn't have. Overall, I'm probably going to stick with W2k on my desktop for quite a while still.
One other fairly positive thing that I have to say about MS is their support for developers. Mac came out with OS X and then tried to give support to developers. Just try and find drivers for OS X and it's already been out for months! MS lets developers know a couple of years ahead of time that they are going to have a new OS come out. They give developers a bunch of Betas to work with, a bunch of release candidates, so that by the time they have the OS released, there actually are a good amount of drivers released for the OS. Apple released an OS which was basically a beta that people had to pay money for, and then didn't really give driver developers good support. Sure Windows XP isn't going to support every piece of hardware ever made, but I bet when it's finally released it will support a lot more than OS X does.
Knome and KDE copied MS. when you are browsing files you can just type a URL in the address bar and you got a 100% copy of IE! it does the exact same thing.. isnt that what MS is introuble for by integrating there browser with there IS.. I dont really remember wanting that option when I installed Redhat 7 or mandrake.
SAP - Secure Audio Path, adds static to music if not 'authenticated.
WPA - Windows Product Activation - can deativate software if it thinks its running on the 'wrong' computer.
No Java, MS takes its toys home
Built in support for Passport - let the spam begin.
Before the Hard-drive manufactures came to their senses it was rumoured that XP would fully support the 'copyright' protection scheme IBM thought up for HDs. Anyone have info?
For more info see these fun loving fanatics:
XP and Privacy/Copyright
Anarchists never rule
It's a moot point for me to boycott XP, since it's never going to run on my Mac anyway. What I plan to concentrate on is a boycott of Passport, and any services that require registering with it.
.NET, through media tie-ins with WMP, or through other goods and services bought by means of my name and vital statistics sold through Passport. It's even conceivable that I won't have the option of "Don't want it? Don't buy it!" -- if my employer, for example, were to require use of Messenger, and Messenger requires a Passport account, I become an unwilling MS customer, and my name goes onto Passport's ultra-secure (?) database.
.pdf format).
MS knows that the big money is selling services through Windows. Therefore, it doesn't matter how many copies of XP go out as warez or how few home users install it at first, because MS will make its money back through
What I hope to see is for MS to get out of the services business, and to stop their leveraging their OS monopoly to get me to require MS products I don't need. The Electronic Privacy Information Center [epic.org] has a detailed list of complaints about Passport (note: the official complaints are in
--- Work, worry, consume, die. It's a wonderful life. -- Bill Griffith
From someone who's running XP RC2:
- If you have a legal copy, WPA is no problem. You just click 'Next' , then 'Finish'.Done. And Microsoft can't use your PC spec info; it's a one-way hash code.(BTW, it's been cracked.)
- It's not bloated: It runs perfectly fine on my p250 128MB, with visual styles enabled. All the patronising features (simple file sharing and that puppy on the search bar) can be easily disabled.)
- It's stable.Mostly.
- It's got a pretty nice stealth firewall (grc.com's ShieldsUP says so, anyway.). And the built-in cd-writing's convenient too.
- It DOES run every one as administrator by default, for Win9x legacy reasons. Not hard to change that, but the default 'Limited User' profile has problems with older apps and games. The trick is to put the users in the predefined 'Power Users' group.
- It's still Windows. If you hate Windows, it probably won't change your mind, but nevertheless it's the best Windows to work with.
It's got lots of other features too, so if you have a question before you consider upgrading, I'm here for you(so nice of me isn't it)
There is no such thing as 'world peace'.
It's not just a modified UI... It's a skinnable one, so that opens up path that UI developers can take. And since I'm assuming that you've never used it before, or at least more than just looking at it, you would know it makes subtle yet effective changes in responsiveness and usability, key factors in the operation of any device regardless of operating system. So, yeah, pretty colors go a long way, although (i'm guessing) most /.ers wouldn't know that since they're power users anyway...
/. is populated by Linux zealots!
Windows XP doesn't require an upgrade to the latest hardware. The people it tends to hurt are those that bought computers with Windows 95 on them. They're old. Windows 95 is old. Sure Linux or what have you can run on older hardware forever, but Windows is a commercial beast that needs attention, and its just about time for those old Windows 95 to revive their "computing experience" and upgrade.
Again, if you actually used Windows XP, you would know that is isn't all that useless. Things like System Restore do wonders in undoing the number of headaches caused by some Windows applications... It's automagical.
You know, there are always fans of any operating system, so the fact that there are Windows fans shouldn't be of any surpised. *gasp*
As far as the stability of 9x vs NT... I don't know. I'm using XP right now, and it crashes sometimes (yet I attribute those crashes due to my lack of RAM) but it doesn't crash nearly as bad as 9x. 9x just doesn't play nice when stuff goes wrong. At least in XP, you have a whole slew of user friendly tools to get you up and running again.
XP will be the doom of Microsoft. One day in the future, XP will be studied along with the Apple III, IBM Micro Channel Architecture, and Intel/Rambus as an example of corporate arrogance trumping common sense with DISATEROUS results.
/. poster has put it (brilliantly, I might add), that with XP, Microsoft has done to itself what the DOJ never could have done: Release a product that will ENABLE competition, and possibly ruin the company.
As one
XP is the product of the two biggest sins a corporation can commit: arrogance and contempt. It's arrogant in that it's overpriced, offers NOTHING new over WIndows 2000, and in fact, takes away from it.
The "Home" version strips you of network capability, unlike 98/95/ME/2000, it CANNOT be used as a client on anything but a peer-to-peer network. It won't allow you to log into a NT domain. I haven't tested it to see if Novell Client 32 will allow logins to a Netware server, but I'd suspect that it's broken as well. It has no support for SMP at all (though 9X didn't either), to get SMP requires the $200 "Professional" version upgrade. None of this is because XP can't do SMP or serve as a network client, it's because MS chose to deliberately CRIPPLE it, and yet sell it for a radically increased price over ME/98.
The Home version upgrade is 100% more expensive than ME! (ME could be had for $50 to upgrade from 98). For what benefit? None that I can tell. Sure, you are likely to gain some of 2000's stability, but you will surely lose game compatibility (which is why the deplorable Win `9X is still the gamers OS). Is that worth $100? Not to me. And I'd bet not to many joe blows.
MS comits the sin of contempt with Product Activation, and it's spyware nature. XP "decides" how far to let you upgrade your hardware before requiring reactication. Which can lose you your data if there is but the SLIGHTEST glitch in this process. MS is better known for creating "unintended consequences" in it's "features" than it is in writing bug-free code. XP constantly monitors your hardware configuration,assigning it a "checksum" number via some formula, and if it gets too far from the "checksum" number originally generated when you installed it, it will CEASE to function.
I hope they have those support lines well staffed.
That's right, now on a XP system, the system owner does NOT have root access to the machine! This is something no MS OS has attempted to do before.
Even if XP didn't have the fatal flaws of arrogance and contempt, the fact that it's a 100%-200% increase in price over 9X alone would be enough to doom it. In this time of economic crisis, particularly in the tech sector, a 100+% increase in the "MS Tax" will do nothing but slow sales, ESPECIALLY when you expect MS to make licenses of ME, 98, and 2000 scarce quickly.
The "window" of opportunity for Linux is open.
=== The price of freedom is eternal vigilance
This whole idea is just retarded. You know what guys, i love linux! i do, it's great. It's stable, it's free, it's flexible, it's just plain cool. Now, with that said, why don't you try to dump an ADAT down to your pro-level sound card and then master a CD in linux . . . having some problems? ya, me too.
Let's face it, no professional or even semi-professional level soundcard is supported in linux, and even if they were there is no pro-level audio software around for linux. Now, i know what you're gonna say, but what about BEOS?
What about BEOS, i don't know if you've noticed but its taken a nose dive. They had a shot there for a brief period, but then right as they were starting to take off they decided to "change focus" to networking from AV, a wise move considering no one has that area covered yet. At this point BEOS support is almost as rare as linux, rendering it more or less useless.
Let's face it, at this point only mac and windows have any real abilities in this area, and mac is too damned expensive. XP is the next phase of windows, and it marks the end of the 9x/NT schism which is fantastic, cos i'm tired of the driver divide.
Lastly, the raw sockets, umm, who cares? Raw sockets have been around for a long time, this is nothing new. Security for raw sockets? Again, who cares, XP isn't meant for shell users. Besides, maybe once the net is flooded with malformed and spoofed packets ISPs will start doing what they should have done long ago and start blocking packets that couldn't possibly be real right at the source.
"The crows seemed to be calling his name, thought Caw."
This piece of shit "stable" software crashes my certified Dell system every fucking time I try to use it.
i am just wondering what is this story doing on slashdot? there have been far too many m$ related stories on /. for my liking. as i see it, you either upgrade to winxp or you don't. from many of the posts it is obvious that many people don't have a clue what winxp is but they just flame away. i have been using rc1 for a while and i don't have any problems with it - all my software / games work and i see no real difference in speed compared to w2k. instead of trying to boycott m$, why don't all you guys get involved in oss developement and give the world a reason to switch to opensource. after all, what's the use in having 10 window managers in a linux distro if the average joe cannot use it daily for their productivity needs. i am a avid supporter of opensource (linux, freebsd, openbsd) but in my opinion windows still has the upper hand in certain applications. just my 2 cents...
Today what is the situation?
Roxio has a monopoly in CD recording software by way of CD Creator. Roxio dictates to manufacturers how to do the hardware interface. Roxio charges an extremely HIGH price to consumers to obtain this software.
I had to upgrade from CD Creator v3 to v4 for Win2k compatibility. Roxio wanted like $90 for this upgrade.
I was able to buy a brand new CD-RW drive with bundled CD Creator for $99. A new 10X drive which was faster than my old 4X Yamaha.
I would hardly say that Roxio by itself has been benefiting consumers.
Besides, all Microsoft has done is license the software from Roxio and include it in WinXP by default.
If anything this is an example of how bundling can benefit consumers.
Chances are, the Roxio software in WinXP is limited in some fashion. Obviously Roxio did this in order to leverage sales of their Deluxe product.
But since WinXP contains some rudimentary support for CD-R drives in some fashion we now have a standard! Hardware makers can write drivers that plug into the existing WinXP OS. Software makers of all sorts can leverage the existing CD-R handling and create more full featured writing programs.
I see this as increasing consumer well being, similar to the way Microsoft increased our ability to network when they integrated TCP/IP into Win95 and eliminated the need to buy third party products like LANtastic.
i dont think ive ever "bought" an OS
Dos, win3.11, win95 a b & c win98 & se, several flavors of NT, a few different linux distros
have yet to pay for any of it
But what about Ahead Software who makes Nero Burning ROM software. Guess they're screwed, huh?
Good God Almighty...look at what Slashdot has come to.
Microsoft has fucked everyone inside and out.... The only postive looking product they have have made is the xbox which looks like it will be the shit. Well, that and my microsoft intellimouse. hmmmmmm in the end I'm just a fucking poser running linux.
Nyquil = Nectar of the devil
And yet mine stays up for months at a time. Go figure.
Must be the operator.
I can't see how this makes you a troll. You are completely correct sir. Why do people need to boycott MS pricing? If there is anything that should be boycotted, it is every OEM computer company who pre-installs Windows and offers consumers no choice of opting out. Yes, MS cuts some pretty sweet deals for OEMs who only bundle their OS, but this is a pretty lame ass excuse not to offer in some manner a proper, no OS system. But vendors don't want to hear about that.
So what if the normal user can't use Linux, they can't use Windows either. Face it, Redhat 7.1 is much less trouble to install than Windows, fact is that the Average user doesn't understand Windows either, so Why rant about why they don't understand windows also? When the pc manufacturers come to an agreement to not ship windows anymore, we will be rid of that problem. Here's why.
IBM, Compaq, and HP have reasons to dislike Microsoft, they make up probably nearly half of the manufactured computers, throw in companies like gateway, who would do it just to make an extra $100 (windows is expencive), and you leave people having to get a specialist to install windows for them, or have one custom built! Linux could work on the desktop through that route, or by apealing to the gamers (convince id software to no longer support windows). Of course other game companies would follow.
Why would that help? think about windows 3.1 vs dos... 3.1 had better office stuff, better internet capability, and it was easier to use. Yet, Dos was still the major setup, until windows 95 came along, and supported games, well. Which is still the only thing that windows9x/me does better than anyone else.
"And we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son to be the Savior of the World"
1 John 4:14
Just for shits and giggles, here are some prices from a June 1990 Byte magazine (the one with a rave review of Windows 3.0):
Windows 3.0 retail: $150
Price of a Dell 386 with color monitor and 40mb hard drive, 512K, 16MHz, a midrange system for running Windows: $2,399
Price of a 25MHz 486, a high-end system: $5,295
No conclusions but I thought maybe somebody would find this interesting!
I'm a Windows user - the folks use the machine, I like games and Word, etc... for reasons - and I see no point in shelling out all this cash for XP. Even if my machine could support it (which it can't), I see nothing really groundbreakingly "new" or "special" in XP. For my money and computational power, Windows98 is the pinnacle of OSes that Microsoft has put out. The only reason I'm not saying 95 is because I like my USB. 95/98 wasn't that bad a Windows release; not too sugar-coated and it did what I needed it to do; nothing more, nothing less, and it allowed me to tweak as I pleased.
Cue The Sun...
u r so so lame
What he posted wasn't even remotely brave. Slashdot is not a pro-linux environment and hasn't been for a long time. Every MS/Linux article now has hords of posts like this, i.e. hords of posts talking about how MS products have upsides and linux products have downsides, and linux isn't for everyone (often mixed in with some idiotic thing about linux users looking down their noses at beginners).
/. you're reading, but his post is really very redundant. Not to mention silly - if it installed fine, you generally need to learn how to do things like using the gimp - as if learning to use photoshop is substantially easier. Using netscape doesn't change from windows, and none of your standard word processing software is difficult to use (I expect that he's not using TeX).
/., and then to claim that it's actually dangerous to do so, or at least any more dangerous than to post anything here. Please stop with the calling pro-MSers brave. They might have been on /. three years ago - not now.
I don't know what
But oh well. It's hip to bash linux here on
They laughed at Einstein. They laughed at the Wright Brothers. But they also laughed at Bozo the Clown. -- C. Sagan
I game just fine on 2000 professional ... Ive run programs that were compiled 10 years ago for a very old dos
Then how do you play closed-source games originally designed for MS-DOS? Windows 2000 Professional is known to have some serious issues with respect to support for DPMI services, sound, and mouse and joystick input, and Microsoft has repeatedly stated that "these bugs are marked WONTFIX; if you want games, wait a couple months and buy an Xbox console and a Microsoft TV Tuner card."
Or do you just dual-boot into DOS and lose all access to NTFS?
I wouldnt know of any other commerical OS that would let you hotswap processors or anything
Several commercial UNIX systems let admins disable processors, exchange them, and enable the new processor. But you shouldn't have to reboot to install a device that connects to the back of the computer, especially a 1394 or USB device.
Will I retire or break 10K?
All these diatribes slamming Windows XP...
But nobody has brought up the built in porn, er image viewer/slideshow. Now that's a reason to upgrade...
-acidboy
Linux still has a long way to go. You can't expect people to use an OS where much of the software is distributed in source code form. People (regular people, not geeks) don't like to compile. Many don't even know what compile means.
/tmp, gzip and untar it, run ./configure, run make all, run make install"
Also, the lack of a nice installer/uninstaller is crippling linux. Installshield (which I hate by the way because of certain technical reasons) and related tools do have a place in the hierarchy of things.
I don't know what the popular opinion is, but I see this as a major drawback. RPM is not the solution, it's just a kludge... For GUI based apps (KDE, etc), Linux needs a graphical installer (and uninstaller!) similar to InstallShield, wise, etc.
I think linux is great as a server or single utility OS.. But as a desktop for the average home user, noooooo... I shudder having to tell my mom "download this thing in your
And I'll be keeping my fingers crossed that the next day she doesn't say "I don't like it, how do I uninstall it?"
Just my $0.02
Take all those amazon prices and slash $15 off of them and buy at costco.
Also, note. these are prices before the OS is even released and at quantity 1. HELL, give it a month (after release) and the price will drop another 15. In 6 months it will drop 25%
Either way you look at it, WinXP Home cost the same as Win9x/Me and WinXP Pro cost the same as Win2K Pro. And you get a better OS with more features. Looks good to me.
As O'Reilly states, WinSock is more a specification, a set of APIs. Anyone could write an implementation. Several did. It just so happens that Peter Tattam wrote the best for Windows 3.1. Also he wrote a scriptable dialer which back in those days was what a lot of people needed to negotiate the hodgepodge of dial-in methods required by the much less consolidated ISP industry. And Tattam gave his package away as shareware so it could spread very fast.
It gets better though from the perspective of an argument against bundling. There were quite frequent warnings as you can see in the alt.winsock FAQ about having the "right" WINSOCK.DLL installed with all others removed. And with the change to Windows 95, I can remember the huge amount of hype over whether one should go "32-bit". Here's a sample from back then which includes advice to simply remove Trumpet Winsock under certain circumstances.
Unfortunately for the opponents of bundling, the problem with this otherwise perfect example is that it is inconceivable that a modern consumer OS would lack either a TCP/IP stack or a dialer. Trumpet Software had the clear market leader. Microsoft in Windows 95 bundled both its own TCP/IP stack and a dialer DUN. This bundling introduced potential incompatibilities that even led for some to advise uninstalling Trumpet's product. So should the government have had the right to force Microsoft to stop invading this software niche? Should it have mattered that Tattam wasn't the head of a much larger company such as Netscape? Should it have mattered that Tattam wasn't American?
By the way, Trumpet Software is currently developing a new 32 bit OS PETROS.
To be sure, whenever Slashdot has a story that involves M$ products, everyone gets hot and rustled with the age old "Why the hell do people still use Windows" thread. Primarily I see two arguments that surface:
Windows has better/more software for my needs.
(I would argue with 'better', but point taken).
Windows is and will always be easier to use than Linux.
I am sick and tired of hearing that excuse. And before you mod me down for being a snobbish troll, consider my reasoning first.
Barring great paradigms such as Graphical vs. CL interfaces, I don't believe that there is such thing as a 'More intuitive than another' OS. Obviously Linux has got GUI covered. Face it people, you are good at what you know. The reason that windows users don't think that Linux is easy to learn is because it isn't Windows . When you have spent maybe 10 to 15 years using M$ operating systems, you have grown very used to the way things work there. eg., I want to know the filesize of this document, I rightclick, and select properties. Does anyone really think that a person who has never used a computer before (after learning what a mouse is and does) is going to think "Oh, I think I'll right click on that icon and select 'Properties!" ? Like C++, swimming and Italian cookery, using a particular operating system is a learned skill.
Case in point? I hear that the Macintosh is supposed to be the end-all be-all of OS simplicity and intuitive design. *Yeah Right.* Just ask any windows/other user that is inexperienced with MacOS, and they'll tell you that it is a bloody nightmare. I work in IT at a University and I see this all the time--we have a small enclave of Mac users who are unbelievably frightened of PCs and our PC users are afraid to touch the Macs in fear that they'll cause the dreaded 'OsError' Bomb to come destroy the machine in spite. Not to mention the 'Boop of Death'. (True script involving my friend Renee at the library)
Renee: Ok, I'll just click the...
Mac: 'Boop'
Renee: Ahh! Ok, how about...
Mac: 'Boop'
Renee: Aiee!! I'm trying to close you! Stop Booping!
Mac: 'Boop Boop Boop'
What I'm getting at (and there is a point I suppose), is that making any platform shift is shaky at first. Linux comes naturally for me now, but I spent a good long amount of time in confusion. If we want people to understand computers better and have the ability to make these kinds of migrations painlessly, then they need to be educated about the abstracts of how computers interact with humans, and not through a computer literacy course that deals strictly with an OS. Maybe then
By saying `if it is good people should have the right to use it' you are implying that a boycott will somehow deprive someone of this right. A boycott is simply declining to buy a product and using free speech to express an opinion about it to others. You would have to be a timid creature indeed to equate this with depriving someone else of their rights.
your mom shouldn't download or install anything on your computer. independant of the OS.
my mother also doesn't have the root password of her linux computer, just as nobody else. i also wouldn't give out the nt-admin password. why should I ? she couldn't do anything useful with it anyway !
and "installshield"... if you do a rpm -e pkgname, doesn't it remove the package ?
if you install something with configure et.al - it's the same as if you're developing something with Visual Studio - you don't get an uninstaller for these apps neither !
Windows 2000 - from the guys who brought us edlin
BTW, a workaround - Install the MS OS, use FIPS to non-destructively make a new partition then install Linux on it.
Personally, I don't give a care weather Windows XP is a success or not, let's be honest here, how will this affect other operating systems? It's just a pretty GUI that you have to buy.. there isn't any massive improvements. Nothing to see here folks, move along now.
What I'll be watching though, is the X-Box release. I'll be HELPING it become madly successful, and I hope all of you do the same. Go out, help out microsoft and BUY AN X-BOX! Why help the Other Side(tm)? Because if X-Box becomes the gaming platform of choice, above Windows, then there IS NO REASON TO USE WINDOWS ANYMORE. Yes, you've heard me right, why do any of us keep a spare windows partition? Yep, games. Windows XP won't affect me, weather I upgrade or not, but if X-Box becomes successful and everyone makes games for it, then i can finally fdisk my windows partition to hell, and so can the rest of you. I can finally convince all my friends to switch over to linux because they'll all be happily playing games on the X-Box.
So Windows XP? What the hell, the masses like it or don't like it I don't give a crap, but with X-Box, you betcherass that I'll be watching closely and helping the MS X-Box movement along ^_^
i mean... wtf for really??? are people really that jealous of how far MS has gone? Has MS personally ever hurt you??? Gosh people can be so harsh, and I hear WinXP is great. well if people keep on boycotting and talking to authorities about their "monopoly" tactics I dont think they will ever get a chance to advance . Thanks a lot LOSERS
boycott XP.. a lot of dumbasses who haven't tried it deciding to hate windows because it's non hackerific. I haven't met someone who's really tested WindowsXP, compared it to other MS releases, and still said it sucks. Quit being such little hackers and hating windows for no reason at all.
...at least in my experience. I've been a Win98/Linux dual booter for several years. Win98 is such crap it's hard to be productive, so I've been using Linux more and more, usually Mandrake. I ordered my new laptop with Win2K, so I could use Windows without constant crashes, spontaneous system screwups, and general bitrot. While Win2K has been generally reliable, it came with very little compared to Mandrake 8.0, and a lot of the apps I had to install needed updates to get working. After a month of downloading, installing, twiddling, and diddling, I still don't have a system as good, reliable, or comprehensive as with an out of the box Mandrake 8.0 installation- plus a few of my own apps- which I can have up and running in a couple of hours. With XP, which is brand new, this can only be worse. FWIW, I'm a technical writer, web publisher, web backend developer, and Java programmer.
I would normally disagree with any illegal behaviour, but since the Jusice Department has found Gates, Monkey-Boy Ballmer and the rest of the Redmond Retards guilty of anti competitive behaviour, I would have to agree with the parent poster.
All features mentioned are better supported under Linux:
10) Remote assistance lets support people connect to people's machines and fix problems over the internet.
Linux has been remotely administrable from the very first versions. Just ssh to the machine and su to root.
9) Locking toolbars: No more accidently fucking up your IE toolbars or your taskbar. They stay where you want them.
Use Mozilla. Problem Solved
8) Cookie management in the new IE. You can block and accept cookies to your liking based on hostnames. So.. you can let hotmail write cookies, but choose to block some random ad site from doing it.
Use Mozilla. Problem solved.
7) New visual themes in explorer. New "skins" that let windows different.. finally.
Use Mozilla. Problem solved.
6) "My Computer" can be on the start bar now (the new default) so you no longer have to minimize everything and search for that stupid icon on your desktop. It kicks ass once you get used to it.
The terminal in and Linux distro lets you easily access all files and directories without needing to scroll though long lists of filenames. Also, you can use konqueror (conveniently launchable from the panel) to do this too.
5) Compatibility modes let your programs run thinking they're in win9x, win95, windows2000, etc so that things that wouldn't normally work, will.
Why use buggy win9x/95/2k/xp programs when you could use stable open-source software?
4) The new task oriented shell. It is nice once you get used to it. If you open a directory of pictures it will let you view a slideshow of them, print them, etc. If you open a folder of mp3s it has tasks on the left that will let you burn them to audio cd, play them, etc.
Again, MS thinks it known what you want. What if you don't want a slideshow? What if you want only part of the mp3s burned to CD? You can do all this in Linux remotely via a textual console.
3)No reboots required to install or detect hardware (most of the time)I've been spoiled by this one. In fact the number of reboots has been cut down to ~10% of what they used to be. I think win2k sucks now ;)
Linux, however, requires zero reboots to install anything but a kernel update or hardware.
2) Built in cd burning. Burn data cds in the shell or audio cds in media player. Very convenient especially for users that would normally not be able to figure out how to burn a cd.
Linux features many GUIs for the excellent CD-Burning tools and ofcourse the option to burn a CD remotely via command line on a slow link. Can your shitty WinXP do that?
1.5) Remote desktop. Uses terminal services ala win2k server, except you can take over the desktop on the remote machine. It supports more colors than the win2k version,and even does sound. It is like vnc only it is actually fast and redraws the screen properly.
One word: VNC. Linux VNC lets you work on seveal desktops simultaneously on the same host. You can access the existing desktop or start a new one for the remote link, and works reasonably well on slow links. Also, esd includes support for remote sound tunnelling.
1) It is replacing that hunk of shit Win9x/me
So is Linux.
Make even shorter URLs - 8LN.org
Lucky bastard. Mathematica is one hot piece of software and cost megabucks ($1,495) for non-students/non-academics. It is sad (and surprising) that nothing even close exists in the open-source world.
Sigh...
1. Basic OS/Gui.
2. Directx 8
Isn't that the idea behind the X-Box?
It's not too late. Have you seen the GNOME usability report from Sun? http://developer.gnome.org/projects/gup/ut1_report /report_main.html.
Consider using CDRDAO for burning VCDs. Search the web for detailed instructions on how to do this.
There is no reason to pay for properitary software, when there is free software that can do the same, and probably more.
Make even shorter URLs - 8LN.org
Now Windows costs over one week's pay for people in this country. It is the most expensive componet in the computer, it costs even more than a 17" monitor!
This is nuts. How can MS justify this? New features like a 'firewall' !? A talking dog from MS Bob? What next, MS Windows YP for $600 + a Active Pay Gate Homage TM feature?
Fine .. if you say so .. now give me your IP address and I'll net nuke you. Your "first reboot in months". Yeah riigggghtt!!!! What a joke, your statement is so ridiculous noone here believes you. Win9X is fscking CRAP. The only time a Win9X box is stable is when noone is using it (and its not a network either, for people to nuke for example).
It's funny 'cause it's true.
I honestly do think Linux is easier to install except for one thing: the partitioning. Mind you this is not a fault of Linux. People just want to keep their old Win install around. If Linux gave no choice like MS (don't care what is on the drive, just use it) the Linux install would be smooth for everybody who doesn't have a shoddy ISO burn.
Everytime you look at porn a devil gets their horns.
Supposedly, what you have to do is "remove/uninstall" XP, then reload your other version of Windows.
Actually, Microsoft won't admit it but they want home users to pirate their software. This way windows will be the only OS they will know and then Microsoft can keep holding its market share in the more important (to them) buisness sector.
You can realize this when you hear all the BSA commercials are all pointing to buisnesses. Has anybody told you not to pirate a copy of windows at home? No!
Microsoft would better prefer that the customer whose unwilling to pay for software will pirate their software than install Linux.
Just my $0.02.
Make even shorter URLs - 8LN.org
Comment removed based on user account deletion
Let me clairify a fow things.
Firstly Joe Public probably only has the vaguest idea of what NT is, so there is limited mileage on the "based on NT" bandwagon.
I was actually referring to the group of people who will start baking the latest microsoft acronyms at me and considering that to be final.
Win NT may run with stability on an old PC, but it can't say much else. I spent two years using it on various worksatations (from a p166 to a PII 333)and it was stable alright, but it was also brutally slow compared to even an older system using (even!) win9x. Stability at the cost of speed is not the answer. Linux et. al. can claim speed and robustness, why can't the financially daft microsoft?
Oh yes, and you have too much ram to really be considered low end. Try 32 or 64 megs. 64 megs of ram will run just about anything without swapping -- except under NT.
It's been a long time.
A boycott doesn't stop anyone who doesn't want to participate from buying it.
Second, not buying stuff from MS on general principal is perfectly valid, would you buy products from a company owned by Nazi's (or any other evil organization of your choice)? I'm not comparing MS to Nazis, I'm simply demonstrating that maybe there are products you might not want to buy on general principal. Seems a valid reason to me...
disclaimer: "brain missing" isn't supposed to be an insult, I'm just kidding ; )
Sticking feathers up your butt does not make you a chicken - Tyler Durden
The mere fact that there is this outlash against the bloated XP product line is a sign of a true community of individuals who want some choices in their computing experience. Needless to say, this is a good thing.
On the other hand, by encouraging this popular support and vocal outlash, Microsoft has the conniving sidegain that they do indeed have some competition - I mean, look at all those people who are so vocal in their support to use other, non-Microsoft products. Microsoft needs a strong Linux/OS community to justify the nonfact that they have some competition in the desktop sector of the computer industry.
I don't really mind the fact that Microsoft has a huge market share and Linux doesn't - the only thing I ever wanted from my computing experience was the same as I want in a bookstore - choice and freedom to choose. Microsoft isn't giving us either.
Look, I hate zealots, they do nothing but distract from the real issues and make us all look like fools. BUT, you're being a damn idiot, the reason it would be different than FUD is that he would be telling the truth, not half truth, not flat out lies, the plain simple unadultered truth.
Sticking feathers up your butt does not make you a chicken - Tyler Durden
man xp is the best Windows platform and I use it...
of course i use mac OS X as my main machine but i also a pc, and XP is still crap compared to OS X !
but against all orther windows XP is the best period. Price (what are you stupid or something if you wanted it you find a way to get it...)
NT using an obscene ammount of resources is considered a feature - that way it can't allocate the resources to run viruses because NT is busy.. um... running.
ram is cheap
geforce2mx is cheap
celeron1100mhz are cheap
Get a job looser.
Seriously, are we approaching the day that windows will cost more than the computer it runs on for most people?
Brand new current model imac - $AU 1800
MS Office:Mac - $AU 950
Its nearly already the case with MS Office.
Buy a freaking Imac. That's what I'm going to make my parents buy next time they buy a computer. Apple's got that hold your hand shit the average user loves so much down to a science. Buy hardware, plug it in, have it work. You're not paying significantly more for the box anymore, so why punish yourself?
I'm trying to teach myself to set people on fire with my mind... Is it hot in here?
These fuckers at boycottxp.com have some censorship over their poll. I've run a stress test against their site thrashing their poll with Windows XP votes. And, mind you, after site has recovered (after an hour or so) the number of votes for Windows XP has DECREASED. It should have been increased by 1011 votes. Welcome to the world of censorship and duplicity.
It's my understanding that RH has a two default partitioning schemes for Workstation and Server installs and you only need to worry about partitioning when doing a custom install.
They could probably take a leaf out of FreeBSD's book and have and A)uto option in diskdruid/fdisk which picks some reasonable defaults based on the size of disk available.
dave
It's driven me up a wall several times, whenever I've added or subtracted a hard drive or CD-ROM. If you have one hard drive, the first partition is C:, the second is D:, and so on until you have your CDROM, E:. OK, if you add a second hard drive, C: stays the same, but D: is now the first partition of your second hard drive, E: is the second partition of the first, and the CD-ROM is F:. This results in over half of your programs having to be reinstalled, either because they can't figure out that the CDROM has changed drive letters, or that they're on a different drive letter, or both. It's a major pain. If you add a CDR to your system, it may insist on being E: instead of F:, which bumps your regular CDROM to F: and you get to reinstall all those programs again. There's no way you can just tell the system to use certain drive letters - no, it's going to be the way it is and you just have to deal with it. Oh, yeah, if you wipe one of your partitions to install Linux in, you'll have one less drive letter and so the CDROM letter will change again and ... well, it's time to reinstall all that crap again. It's the most asinine partition identification system possible.
In Linux, switching around hardware, the names of the CD-ROMS (hdc1 + hdd1) stay the same, no matter what you do with the hard drives. Now THAT'S logical!
When did you first decide that you need a
graphical interface to install a piece of
software?
If you do, and mom does too, compile the source
, test it , zip the files, write a tk widget around the unzipping of the files with a few user choice prompts in it for the user , and have a little progress bar in another widget for the copying over.
This whole project can be completed by a non-programmer with references and 3 yr technical computer user, with less than two years linux experience in a week. You will learn a lot more and so will mom.
I had X do this to me today with kde 2.1.2..
Irritating isn't it.
Get everyone you know (hey, everyone here on slashdot) to call up Dell or Gateway's sales support. Tell them you're ordering a system and you'd like them to sell you something. Let them recommend everything. And finally, when they sense the deal being cinched, ask for Linux instead of XP. When they say they can't provide Linux, argue with them. "Why not? Didn't they just rule Microsoft a monopoly? By not supporting an alternative operating system, aren't you just feeding the monopoly? I can't bear to have Microsoft on my machines, so I guess I'll have to see if someone else has the cajones to get rid of Standard Oil. Thank you, though, for your time."
Or something like that.
Imagine if everyone on slashdot did that for days on end. Hrm..
with your assumption about me. When people disregard some of the technical advantages *BSD has over Linux I try to find out the real scoop.
The difference isn't in what you could do, it's between what the guy was saying and what MS has done. You were defending MS comparing their tactics to what he was saying, but they are not the same thing at all as MS has attempted to spread blatant lies and misinformation about Linux while he was advocating no such thing at all.
Sticking feathers up your butt does not make you a chicken - Tyler Durden
"Trolling is not tolerated here"
... which is the same thing as saying "censorship will be rigorously applied".
Well hey, it's your bedroom and your linux box. But don't you have anything better to do? Instead of urging other to boycott XP for reasons that have more to do with ideology than technology why not go make your preferred OS better? It's a lot easier just to be negative...
fdisk is no easier than the Linux alternatives. The reason you think that is because most machines come with Windows pre-installed and partitioned.
Look, I don't care, I use Windows for my day to day tasks and I use Linux to learn about computers, so I can be closer to my machine. Windows is great, I don't see why we should boycott it. It's nice to see that now we can choose which OS we want to use and I don't want anyone to tell me which one I should use.
since you give no reference to your preferred OS, I can only assume you use Windows
ever 5 year olds know Windows isn't stable
I always find it rather pitiful when zealots from any side spew false information to promote their cause... whether it be PC vs Mac or Windows vs Linux, fools on both sides tend to make up more information than they research. For example...
"Linux has this kind of stability ever since version 1.0. Linux separates the kernel from the GUI. Windows NT and 2000 built having the GUI in the kernel. Finally with Windows XP they copy the Linux approach and separate the GUI from the kernel. "
He is dead wrong here. Both in Windows 2000 and XP, the video drivers live in kernel space for performance reasons. But what is called the "Window Station", which takes care of drawing/widgets, et al lives smack dab in user-space, under the guise of csrss.exe, which also happens to provide the entire Win32 API, since the NT kernel itself only has about 200+ APIs collectively called the Executive.
Furthermore, the Window Station has always had both the capability to have multiple desktops, as well as the capability to redirect its output. Why Microsoft waited this long to expose that to end users is a mystery to me.
At any rate, here's how an XP/2K machine works (except for fast-user switching, which is new to XP).
System boots the kernel, loads drivers, etc (XP does nearly all driver loads in parallel following the dependancy tree, and remembers what loaded last time and prefetches that from disk before it is needed.)
Once that process is complete, Window Station 0 is initialized with Desktop 0 -- this is the primary console on which the GINA runs (the GINA provides login/auth, and the screen you see when you press CTRL+ALT+DEL).
Once a user logs in, Desktop 1 is initialized, which is where explorer.exe (the shell) and your programs live.
When a Terminal Services client logs in, a new "Job" is created by the kernel, and Window Station x is initialized within that job space. That Window Station also inits Desktop 0 and 1.
XP Adds the capability to init other Desktops on Window Station 0 as other users, which is where the Fast User switching comes from.
Natural != (nontoxic || beneficial)
I'll pass on XP until I see how all the other sheep upgrade their computers. I'll be willing to bet XP gets a lukewarm welcome.
.NET Passport account to use Outlook Express (see http://www.pcmag.com/article/0,2997,s%253D1470%252 6a%253D13705%2526app%253D3%2526ap%253D4,00.asp). Only the complete morons will actually believe M$ when they say their data is safe with them.
First of all, all the "buzz" about personal computers that enveloped most of the US for the last few years is pretty much gone by now. Nobody except the minority geeks give a crap about new and shiny OS upgrades and apps. The majority of users already log into AOL, use AIM, check their email, manipulate pictures with their digital camera, well you get the picture. They already have what they want already and they are not talking about it around the dinner table or party.
Second, just wait until the suckers who do upgrade find out that XP drivers dont exist for their old legacy hardware. Or it runs too slowly (64 Mb MINIMUM, 233Mhz CPU, not everyone has this people). Or their old DOS or Windows 3.1 or early Win32 apps won't run either. Or that you're going to need a
Third, for the majority of people who have been upgrading from Win95 to 98 to 98SE and to ME because M$ says "this upgrade is more stable" (http://www.geek.com/hwswrev/software/winme/ + various reports of crashes with ME) have probably had enough of M$'s crap. How many times can you be burned and still fall for that bulls**t? Sure, XP "probably" is going to be more stable, as it's based on 2000, but what about the interaction between app and OS? I have apps that run on Win98 crash on 2000, due to some coding shortcuts. To the average user, this will appear as an instability, and thus feel like they've got burned again by the M$ and shill reviewers hype machine.
It'll be an interesting sociological and psychological experiment to see just how much bulls**t the general public buys into or tolerates...
Boycott is perhaps too strong a word - ignore would be more kindly. Besides, you probably can't boycott it indefinitely without significant effort. If you buy consumer computer equipment in the next few years (especially laptops) it will be *forced* upon you whether you like it or not. If the boycott means "give me the choice to not consume this product" and it shakes up suppliers then I'm all for it. I can certainly think of better ways to spend 299$ (US$ .. larger number up here in Canada). Ways that don't involve technology even ... or at least what passes for "technology" in these days of hype.
... and perhaps with ITC and computers in general. We need to be geeky and technophilic about *REAL* important technology. Shift Magazine's article "Why technology is failing us [and how we can fix it]" will explain:
...
... IMNSHO the most useful thing they could do now is exit the market intact and redeploy that capital in other sectors (Bill? time to retire!) because there is really nowhere to go but down for a good long while otherwise. But hey, yah gotta love the "free" market: it can't be "free" without vast waste, irrationality, duplication and utterly pointless uses of resources going along with that freedom. We all need to remember *that* the next time some analyst on CNN says "the market" or "the economy" (like they are discrete describable objects) is "adjusting" or that some kind of rational "equilibrium" is being established ...
...
Hey I'm all for technology, being sort of a geek and all, but it's time for this fascination with truly mediocre and overpriced software to end
http://www.shift.com/mag/9.3mag_toc.asp
The stupendous waste of money and capital that was poured into IT/dot.com and that could have gone into more thoroughly revolutionary technology is staggering when you stop to think of it. In reading the Shift piece about Silcon Valley's "non-revolutionary" landscape (traffic jams, malls, SUV's, etc), Ivan Illich's "Ideology of the automobile" and "Tools for conviviality" come to mind: at least there's a place to start grounding technology in human needs
In that context Microsoft is not an innovator - it's been proven over and over again; and that just in the area of the IT industry alone. In fact a huge chunk of the IT industry *itself* is more hype than anything else so this makes it even more compelling to avoid spending even more on MS products. Taking into account the fact that, for what we *do* need computers for the free OSes are now more than "good enough" for anything and everything the utter irrelevance of MS as a "technology leader" is clearer than ever.
What Microsoft **is** significant for is its vast pool of capital - which is most likely going to be **horribly wasted** reinventing the wheel, slowly, in a way that benefits shareholders. They are like a huge bank that doesn't have enough loans in play
All the other reasons for "boycotting" MS can be found detailed here http://www.vcnet.com/bms/ - yup, all the bad stuff MS did and then denied while what it really should have been doing was truly innovating. Sorry,.NET and C# are too little too late. It has been proven MS can't play nice and it seems high time to me for them to go sit in the corner for a really long long time.
Meanwhile perhaps someone could buy their cash pool in a breakup firesale and put it to use
No, the reason I think installing Windoes is easier at this point has nothing to do with fdisk. It is easier because there is no way to configure it. Windows doesn't worry about anything but it's own data. Since Linux is the underdog and often installed on dual-boot machines this makes it appear more difficult to intstall due to the partitioning step (which only dual booters really need to do).
Everytime you look at porn a devil gets their horns.
After reading all of these comments, I'm really sad to admit that many of them are complete lies (or at least, false accusations). I've been using WinXP since it's RTM last week (being a beta tester, I got a free copy). I'm also a hacker, hardware enthusiast and general computer nerd... So far, it's actually impressed me (and my wife) and am glad to say that I'm quite happy with it.
There seems to be a lot of complaints about the UI: You can turn off the cuteness! There are tons of compaints about the WPA: I changed the motherboard, CPU, RAM and CD-ROM (to DVD-ROM) and still haven't had to call anyone. If I do later, then, presumably it should only take a few minutes... And, plus, we all know it's been cracked already: if we're such enthusiasts, we can crack WinXP so it doesn't complain anymore. The speed? I just finished Max Payne, and it was running at the same speed it did in Win98SE (on my Duron 800, 192megs PC133 system).
Sure, I love Linux. It's a great hobby operating system when it comes to home use. It may be powerful in the business world, but for my uses? It's far too clunky and lacks a huge number of features and utilities that I need to work with. The answers I get? "It's coming!" or "Make it yourself, it's open source!". Those are both silly, considering I'm using an OS only the paranoid will steer clear from that has everything I need, now.
If you're going from Win2k, then yes, here isn't a huge difference and may not be worth the extra money (yet), but I honestly thing it's worth the upgrade from Win98... (of course, I didn't pay for it, so it would all depend on your financial position... rent would be more important, for example).
*shrug* Basically, I'm just getting sick of hearing the same complaints from so many people who haven't even TRIED it yet... (quoting Beta 2 stats and misinformation, such as WinXP Home not supporting dual monitors, is annoying, to say the least).
As long as the people that run this site allow this kind of speech on their main page, they will never be taken seriously and will never get the media attention they're after. What a waste...
"Yes, Geekette? What is it? You're blue with exhaustion!"
"I had to run from the evil Gatesgamel! He shot flying Rainbow Disks at me, labeled with evil symbols like 'XP' and 'Do not make illegal copies of this disk'! He sent his Ballmercat after me! I was nearly geeked to death!"
"Great geek in the morning! Gatesgamel, so close to Geekville? Quick! Everyone! Geek for your lives! And hide your little geeks! Don't let them listen to his words! They'll follow him and never geek again!"
I am a linux user now, by choice, and I hate it when I need to use most microsoft products. But, without microsoft being so good at convincing people that they needed to upgrade to this that and the other how would things be now? Most people here run their free (as in..blah.blah) OS on an x86 machine, without microsoft this architecture would have probably not been around today. I was just trying to think of a reason why that is good, but I couldn't. At least that microsoft dream of having PC's on every desktop thing means that, indirectly, there should be more people to work on those fun projects people come up with..
-sorry, i'm drunk and decided to post.
You can't get exactly Mathematica, but you can get better functionality overall with different open source packages.
the point is NOT the fact that you happen to be on a slow link, have no time to waste on the download, don't have any empty cds, or stuff like that. the REAL point is that there is an OPTION available for you to do it for free, unlike with windows.
--- d'oh
Are there open source alternatives? You bet. No, not quite the same bundle of functionality, but overall better: Maxima (symbolic math+functional programming), OCAML and Haskell (functional programming), R (graphics, interactive numerical programming), Python (graphics, 3D visualization, interactive numerical programming), and many others.
And what, precisely, can you do in Windows that you can't do in Linux other than run games?
Once I can play my games in Linux I see no reason whatsoever to use Windows for any purpose. Linux does the job, and better, for everything I need, from email to programming Perl or C to CAD to running any kind of server my heart could desire.
Can any of the I-want-to-suck-Bill boys out there name a single useful function that Windows is better at than Linux? *And* provide proof?
Max
My god carries a hammer. Your god died nailed to a tree. Any questions?
Uh, check your user number, dude...
"Anybody remotely interesting is mad, in some way or another" - Doctor Who
Is there an echo in here?
Xix.
P.S. I apologise if the above links are broken. I can reach cached copies, but not the pages themselves. Blame the PHBs.
"Everything is adjustable, provided you have the right tools"
EVERYONE here saying that it is somehow "wrong" or "uncapitalist" of us to boycot XP is 100% WRONG. The boycott is one of the most basic, fundamental tools of capitalism. It is how WE, THE CONSUMERS, tell a corporation they have crossed the line. WE, THE CONSUMERS, REFUSE to GIVE them OUR MONEY. Corporations do NOT have ANY intrinsic RIGHT TO OUR MONEY.
I went to look at the linked site, and here is the title of the first story:
Linux vs. M$ (in the home market)
Once I see that M$, I just know it's unlikely you are going to see well balanced arguements. It's one step up from declaring M$ = p00pyp4nts.
I do not care if XP is the best OS under the Sun, I refuse to put more money in a company with the dubious moral attitude of MS regarding the computer market, its clients and what competition should be.
It is also important that people that do know how to use a computer keep alive alternatives to MS, otherwise there is absolutely no chance that there will be solutions available when the time comes to break the MS "embrace". (example: sooner or later most goverments around the world will realize how foolish it is to depend on one company for the format in which they are storing information. Most sensible goverments are horrified to thing to delegate responsibility of strategical resources in the hands of private, foreign companies. Most goveerments will sooner or later realize that MS is a foreign company and that they have them by the b@@11s because MS holds the key to access their own information).
IANAL but write like a drunk one.
W2k gave me problems with The Sims, NT4 drivers (all that were available at the time) for my scanner, and an initial problem with RealAudio (fixed in a newer version of RA). That is all I can think of at the moment. There may have been a few others.
For all the hand wringing and spleen venting of the Linix community against the scourge of Redmond, your operating system of choice has perhaps a 6% share of the U.S. market. Adding the governments (principally in Europe) to the whine won't make any difference. Look at how long this dependancy on a 'private, foreign company' has been developing, and yet nothing has been done about it.
America is the most powerful nation in the world today(although I give it 200 hunfred years on the outside) because of one single concept and that is freedom.
To me freedom == choice.
Donning my flamesuit
M$ with no motivation rather then greed have now made is impossible for people from the same countries that make computer"s to use the software to run them due to cost. This is a perversity. Now there is motivation for hackers of these countries to create their own software industry which could overtake America's oneday. All thanks to Linux ofcourse
The rule is: that if you crash innovation in your own country then you provide cause for innovation in other. The Japinesness automotive industry ate Americas because of the exact arrogaince that M$ have started to display. To have a software industry dependand on, or owned by one company is a path to ruin.
Crush competition in one area leave yourself open to another
I tried everything it displayed; I just can't see the difference. I suppose it's a joke along the lines of Dogbert's new operating system . . .
hawk
Sorry, but this is far from the reality. .stabs and .symtabs section. COFF should be similar.
When programming under DOS (MZ), Unix (ELF) or Win32 (COFF). The debugging info is not in the middle of a text (code) segment.
Under DOS debugging info was in the overlay, under linux it's (if my memory is right) in the
Debugging info affect load time, but not execution time.
Usually programs with debug infos have less optimization too.
That's why you can strip a program with debugging infos, it's just remove the ELF/COFF/... sections that contains the debugging info.
You need two computers for this to work:
Get a retail copy of XP, so they can't complain about EULA violations.
Install it on one of your machines. Register and validate it. Then wipe the partition.
Install it on your second machine. When prompted, call Microsoft and have them re-validate your install on this machine now. Then wipe that partition and re-install back on the first machine.
Repeat hourly until you start getting busy signals when you call their number.
I run Debian most of the time. Occasionally, I boot into Windows for the odd Blizzard game, but that only happens about twice every two weeks. I actually don't mind running Windows at home, because my Windows partition is expendable, so if anything craps out, I just wipe and reinstall. ( Also, since I barely use it, it tends not to break. Go figure.)
Many Windows users' biggest fear is that something will happen that will cause all their hard-worked-on files to be wiped out. For me, this is not a problem because I don't do anything important in Windows.
Rather than telling people that Windows should never be used for anything, and that Linux is better for everything, we should simply tell them that "these are the things that GNU/Linux can do better than Windows, and for anything else, feel free to use Windows if you want." Eventually, that list will grow, and with more Linux users, there will be more Linux-native apps. That, my friends, is how we shall take over the world. [laughs evilly]
Whether MS licensed it's winsock (I don't think they did) or not this has to be the best example of bundling benefiting the consumer I can think of and one of the best things MS ever did. Back in the day using IP on windows was a nightmare. Every ISP/online service/app had it's own IP stack and they all went by the name of winsock.dll. If you used Compuserve and decided to try Delphi the installation program would likely overwrite your previous winsock. The new one either would not work or worse worked 90% of the time and then caused everything to lock up. I used batch files to copy/rename wisock.dll for every ISP I used. Of course windows 3.x was a nightmare in itself. I used OS/2,then tried Slackware linux but I always needed a dos partition for acceptable game performance. Anyway, when windows 95 came out the integrated winsock was my favorite feature. Had MS not included it, I doubt they would have kept their market share.
but then again, why are we reading slashdot?
sulli
RTFJ.
I had always been able to start downloading large files (uhh, .iso's! yeah, that's it! ;) and then start playing a game on top of it, like Warcraft II, under Win98SE. The desktop would disappear and the game would play on. When I noticed the lights stop flashing on my DSL router, I would save the game and go 'inspect' my downloads. Win98SE was very stable doing this (well, for Windows anyway). It usually wouldn't crash but maybe once per playing/downloading session.
.avi viewer for Linux. *sigh* Oh, well, my requests for Linux are getting more esoteric, which is a sign of progress, I guess...). The first time I tried W2K in this situation, it locked up after about 60 seconds of game play (this was on a fresh install to an empty partition). Hit the reset button, try again, crash after 60 seconds.
.tar.bz2 image I had taken of the install, and started downloading the same .iso ;) and started playing the same game, and continued until the .iso ;) was done. No crash.
I thought I'd try W2K since Linux, although I love Debian, just isn't quite there (I love Free Agent and Windows Media Player 6.4. Pan doesn't quite do it for me, and while there are progs to run most mpegs quite well, I haven't found a good
I then wiped out the partition, and reloaded Win98SE with the
W2K isn't always more stable in all situations.