Slashdot Mirror
More News And Links On Yesterday's Terrorist Attack
Ian Peon writes: "SF Gate has a short article on how the Internet "proved its mettle as a communications facilitator in a time of crisis." Kudos to all those who kept things running!"
An anonymous reader writes: "The who, what, and how are detailed in this Boston Herald story. The weapons were smuggled in the razor cases. And in order to get to the cockpit, they terrorized the stewardesses, killing a few in order to lure the pilot out. Once the pilot was out, they took control of the plane. They have identified a car driven by 5 arabs had flying instruction in arabic. The men have been traced back to different arab countries."
This WorldTribune.com story claims that Israeli intelligence reports favor the idea that the attacks may have had the backing of Saddam Hussein's Bagdhad government. According to a submission from UberOogie ,Osama bin Ladin denies involvement in the attacks. The claims, speculation and disclaimers will no doubt continue.
Connord D writes: "View the Survivor's Register Please, PLEASE go to the survivor registers, register that your looking for your family, tell your friends, pass the word around and identify those that have survived and those that are missing. Help worried families either confirm the fates of their loved ones so that they can mourn, or help them find those people that are missing." And Brian Mears, LAN Systems Operations Manager for Computer Sciences Corporation, writes: "I have created a forum on my website to allow families and friends of survivors to post messages and communicate with each other concerning this most tragic period." Here's the link: http://www.ntadmin.net/forum/.
It would be a godsend if the various survivor registries would pool their data, or if someone sets up a google-like search engine to reach all of them at once.
oo7 writes: "CNN has a stream of the first plane crash. If you'd like to download it you can from the videos section of this site; it has news updated as fast as I can and streams as fast as I can capture. Please forward any unknown news and links that you may have."
pKa writes: "The last image from WTCs 77th floor webcam is available on a few sites around the net. The original WCTA.org cam-site is dead, but available in Googles cache, where you can see the dark screen (camera already dead, most likely) at 09:52:52, 09/11/01 - just before the buildings crashed. Article (in norwegian) with screenshots available here" The stream of concern that yesterday's events will lead to an illiberal attitude toward privacy is growing into a torrent: vena writes: "CNN reported on television broadcast earlier today that the NSA was now going through volumes of recorded cellular calls for calls made by passengers on the planes. Clear admission."
GothChip writes: "Ananova are reporting that just hours after the terrorist attack on New York, the FBI started approaching ISPs asking for help in installing Carnivore."
mkelley writes: "This is only the beginning folks...looks like the internet is going to be blamed for this...Wired has a story that is sure to cause panic. This is going to be the goverment's way to push wiretapping into your email and web surfing. In this time of crisis, people in high places are going to use this to get their agenda through. "Blame the Internet" is going to be the rallying cry for everything ..." If you're interested in the details of the planes the terrorists chose, a Semi-Anonymous Coward writes: "American Airlines flight 77 confirmed down, crashed into the Pentagon, Washington DC. Flight 77 (Dulles to Los Angeles) is scheduled as a Boeing 757-200:
Boeing 757-200 data and history:
American Airlines Boeing 757-200 photos:
- American Airlines flight 11 confirmed down, crashed into World Trade Center New York. Flight 11 (Boston to Los Angeles) is scheduled as a Boeing 767-200:
- Boeing 767-200 data and history
- American Airlines Boeing 767-200 photos
- United Airlines Boeing 757-200 photos: United Airlines Boeing 757-200 photos"
I have some pictures I grabbed from the WallStreetItalia.com webcam.
-russ
Don't piss off The Angry Economist
And also the obligatory plug for Poliglut.
.sig
Thanks for all who have sent in news and emailed their thanks during the crush yesterday.
Several stories, a diary of the events and many links available from the
Link available on amazons frontpage. So far, $481,726 has been collected. Please help, most of us can spare a dollar...
MSNBC (The TC channel) was saying that two suspects had apparantly attended flight school in Florida last summer. It didn't have any more information on WHO the suspects were however. Here is a related story there.
"You can take our lives, but you can never take our Flerbage!!!!"
Note Iraq's basically unique reaction at http://www.cnn.com/2001/WORLD/europe/09/12/mideas
It Is the Nature of Information to Transgress Artificial Boundaries
You know, I have to speak up about something: I am sickened by the cowardice I saw yesterday on Slashdot. There were many that were calling for appeasing the terrorists. Many called for just "moving on", and not making a response. Still more said that we shouldn't "make them mad" by striking back, which would invite more terrorism. Many even said that we should try and "understand" the terrorists.
Hogwash.
Tens of thousands of people have died. These are not freedom fighters, these are mentally disturbed people with great resources. Should we have tried to understand Kaczinsky when he sent mail bombs? Or do we remove him from society?
The perpetrators must be punished, and the countries that give safe harbor to these countries must be punished. As an American, I believe the response must be overwhelming force. Terrorism on American soil? This must not be tolerated.
You people who think that we are inviting more terrorism have it exactly backwards. That is how the terrorists want you to feel! The want you to feel fear, to give in to whatever demands they make. We must NEVER do that. Once they find out that we will do nothing to their attacks, particularly on this scale, it will invite every crazy to cause more damage.
It's time for Sheriff Uncle Same to ride into town, and kick some bad-guy ass. The cowards who wring their hands over what needs to be done make me sick. Go hide under your bed, and allow the grown-ups to do what needs to be done.
Sometimes it's best to just let stupid people be stupid.
The following was a letter emailed to the President by a friend of mine, and I think you would all be interested in reading it.
I am writing you to express my thanks for your sincere and thoughtful remarks on today's national tragedy. Like you, I offer my condolences to the families and friends of the victims of this horrific attack. I also write you on behalf of potential victims of a growing and unreasoned response to this travesty.
Interspersed with the reports on today's national tragedy, I have been hearing other news that is as disconcerting as the senseless loss of life. Namely, that Federal Law Enforcement Agency spokespersons are talking of limiting not only civil liberties of free passage, but veiled references to endorsing the curtailing of privacy-enabling technologies, all of which are cryptography-based.
It seems that those who truly care about freedom and all that it entails are being afforded no time to mourn this day's losses. I believe it no product of wild speculation to suggest that many policiticians and media pundits will once again renew their calls for limitations on public access to strong cryptography. These movements will be built on the graves of the dead in New York, Washington and Pennsylvania. The claim will ultimately be made that if cryptography had not been so readily available, our intelligence agencies would have been able to detect and summarily thwart today's attack on the contintental United States.
Suffice it to say that I can no sooner embrace such notions than I can embrace the terrorists who brought this tragedy to our nation's shores. And anyone suggesting such a course of action should be met with resistance equal to that which you call on us to muster against the forces of terrorism.
The day we sacrifice our liberties in the name of "security" is the day that the terrorists' goals will have been achieved. To reiterate the wisdom of Benjamin Franklin, if we surrender our liberty in the name of security, we shall have neither.
It is unfortunate that it seemed necessary to compose this note less than twelve hours after this day's attack, but it is every citizen's duty to take every possible action to avert national disaster; especially one in the making.
Thank you for your valuable time. It is my hope that the perpetrators of this crime against the United States will be swiftly brought to justice. God bless America.
who sacrified himself to save others, on United Flight 93.
Thanks slashdot for the fantastic work you have done over the last 2 days. When other services have been down or out, you have been able to fill us in and have provided a forum for people to use, and provide links to working news sources.
This isn't news for nerds exclusivly but it was well worth the exception.
Has anyone heard any credible speculation as to the destination of the plane that crashed in Pennsylvania was? The other three planes obviously had specific targets: the Pentagon and the two WTC buildings. The fourth crashed southeast of Pittsburgh. As nice of a city as Pittsburgh is, I'm sure, I can't recall any significant landmarks or financial centers that exist there.
- Rev.My wife and I were speculating last night: will they rebuild the towers? They will almost certainly fix the Pentagon because only about a fifth of the building was damaged, but what about our landmark center for capatailsm? Thoughts?
std::disclaimer<std::legalese> sig=new std::disclaimer; sig->dump(); delete sig;
Numerous editorials in todays NY Post have advocated ignoring the law and using racist, mob logic to correct the injustice of yesterday's attack. These frothing calls to action are not only irresponsible, they are barbarous.
... should be as simple as it is swift - kill the bastards. No, I don't mean hunt them, arrest them, extradite them and prosecute them in a court of law. I mean a far quicker and neater form of retribution for this cabal of cowards. A gunshot between the eyes, blow them to smithereens, poison them if you have to."
"Who is responsible for yesterday's carnage? That's no great mystery."
- editorial 4006
The law of the land is innocent until proven guilty. Until there is concrete evidence pointing to the perpetrators of the terrorist attacks, there can be no action. If the US attacks without evidence, then we are terrorists as well, and would deserve all the condemnation we are piling on our - still unknown - attackers.
"To hell with Bill Clinton's 'gather the evidence and proceed to court' approach."
- editorial 4022
"The response
- Steve Dunleavy editorial 3999
Both of these editorialists call for dismissing the due process on which our justice system is based. They call for the removal of equal treatment under the law. These demands for extreme measures are demands for the creation of a dictatorship, of a police state. Assassinations, executions without trials, condemnation without evidence - these are the hallmarks of regimes like Stalin's Soviet Union, Mao Tse Tung's China and Hitler's Germany.
Consistent and reasoned responses are imperitive in civilized society. Everything else is barbarism.
If the passengers on those planes had been armed and able to defend themselves, the disaster would never have happened.
-- Ed Avis ed@membled.com
Those who are willing to give up freedom for safety, deserve neither safety nor freedom.
Chris
I made a few small logos which i'd like to share:
... i dont know.
http://www.abde.net/images/911-TN.jpg "9-11"
(9-11 as in september 11, and also as in emergency, etc)
http://www.abde.net/images/remember.jpg "Remember the Skyline"
http://www.abde.net/images/wtc-2002.jpg "WTC 2002"
(as in, rebuild)
do copy and pass it on if you think its worth sharing. these are
meant as an expression of solidarity, of remembrance
Don't blame me - I voted for Howard Dean. http://dean2004.blogspot.com
Great articles on Slate right now:
s p? Show=9/11/2001&idMessage=8265
s p? Show=9/11/2001&idMessage=8270
Why the Towers collapsed:
http://slate.msn.com/code/explainer/explainer.a
How good were the Pilots?
http://slate.msn.com/code/explainer/explainer.a
------
Let me give you the lowdown
If some one has a concise report of the damage to the WTC beyound the towers(which buildings, what damage, etc.) it would be of interest to those of use in the hinter lands
I have set up a rather extensive set of image and video mirrors.
http://www.watership.org/media/
I have made tar balls of the images and the movies so everyone will be able to set up their own mirror.
http://watership.org/media/images.tar.gz -(26985k)
http://watership.org/media/movies.tar.gz -(200189k)
i am not sure on the copyright issues. But anyone is welcome to dload and set up content mirrors.
Producing satire is kind of hopeless because of the literacy rate of the American public. - Frank Zappa
I noticed that no TV or radio stations were doing ANY commercials around here yesterday. I was thinking how good it would be for some sites that got a LOT more traffic yesterday to donate some of the profit to the Red Cross or another relief organization.
Slashdot mentioned getting 3x as much traffic..how about donating some of the after-expenses profit?
This is interesting:
I'm a reasonably intelligent person, I know that the NSA is basically admitting to recording all cell phone traffic, I know this will include my private calls...
And I don't care. Maybe I will in a week or two, but right now...
Anyway, I'm usually very pro-privacy, so I found my reaction on this one interesting.
Every year during my review, I just pray the words "slashdot.org" aren't mentioned.
Perhaps now it is time to think if a big amount of money should be spent on the missile shield, if even the pentagon can be hit by a terrorist attack.
Although the attack was quite well organized, it probably didn't cost too much, and the shield wouldn't be useful against this kind of attacks.
Given the current situation of the middle east, this kind of things are much more probable than a missile attack from some distant country.
and they've never had any problems with terrorism on this scale
Yeah, but for the Brits, one car bomb and a dozen dead a week in downtown London is an acceptable loss. Who are you trying to kid?
.sig: Now legally binding!
This is a horrendous situation and I hope most of the people got out of the buildings before the collapse. As a Canadian they might as well have hit Toronto because it feels the same. While the US media has ignored it there have been lines at blood banks across Canada, and every Canadian city has offered to help however they can (and they are actually offering for real. Toronto prepared 15 EMS teams with ambulances and all of the equipment ready to go on NY's request, and our hospitals and air ambulances prepared to take any overflow that might exist).
Having said that it is INCREDIBLY irritating seeing the natural habit of pointing to easy solutions to get the knee jerk solutions : For instance every report has been making a BIG deal about 2 of the people possibly having come from Canada (though strangely apparently they had New Jersey licenses from preliminary reports). Guess what: They flew FROM US airports, and they apparently had UAE passports, so could someone tell me why this "Canadian connection" is given such relevance? Secondly during the attack all attention was immediately placed on international flights despite the fact that the four flights were originating and destined in the US, but of course it's easy to think of foreign airports as lax versus the super secure impenetrable US airports. I just had to get this off my chest because while I would do anything for New York right now, it's hard to tolerate the habit of looking outwards for blame. As a caucasian I really feel for anyone of Middle Eastern descent as all of them are being painted with the same brush and people should remember that not every Muslim is a terrorist, and not every Middle Eastern descended person thinks this is cool: The vast majority are horrified.
It seems that ESR has written an opinion piece on Newsforge that is sure to get slashdotters up in arms. Sorry couldn't resist the lame pun. Seriously though, it seems like ESR is promoting his personal agenda during this time of crisis. Hardly appropriate.
std::disclaimer<std::legalese> sig=new std::disclaimer; sig->dump(); delete sig;
It comes down to completely disarmed passengers. If the government has mandated that nobody has a weapon, and you've got something sharp, you're more powerful than everyone else. If guns are allowed on airplanes, brandishing a gun doesn't make you powerful. It makes you a target. Given a sample size of several dozen people, it's very likely that one of them is a better shot than you are. Worse, she knows to shoot you, and you don't know who she is to shoot her.
-russ
Don't piss off The Angry Economist
FWIW I'm very impressed with the response of the American people to this unprecedented crisis. I thought the newscasters did an unusually objective job of covering the event (despite the recurrent technical problems), and the talking head experts had very interesting things to say. Fox even wheeled out Ollie North and Newt Gingrich for comments, and even they had surprisingly incisive things to say (!).
;-) ), and people kept the crass jokes and politicking to an amazing minimum. I am the moderator of a forum that reflects a much less (ahem) savvy/sophisticated subculture, and I was impressed to see my users put aside their flamewars for a day and engage in mature discussion.
:-)
The discussions on Slashdot were atypically mature (at least at moderation level 3
We live in a period of extreme political cynicism/complacency, but yesterday reaffirmed my faith in the American people and our elected representatives. Probably everyone will revert to their non-noble selves once the shock has worn off, but I just wanted to say that it's cool, for a moment, to have old-skool solidarity with your neighbors in the face of a common enemy.
Peace,
Gonz
Our organization has been very busy. Check my posts from yesterday. People in Dade County FL can use our site as the day goes on to help in our efforts. Click here or cut and paste [http://ckfonline.org/arc/]. Thanks for everyones help everywhere.
Prospecting Stinks. Stop Wasting Time on Cold Calling.
Harry Browne of the libertarian party thoughts:
http://www.antiwar.com/orig/browne2.html
When Will We Learn?
by Harry Browne
September 12, 2001
The terrorist attacks against America comprise a horrible tragedy. But
they shouldn't be a surprise.
It is well known that in war, the first casualty is truth - that
during any war truth is forsaken for propaganda. But sanity was a
prior casualty: it was the loss of sanity that led to war in the first
place.
Our foreign policy has been insane for decades. It was only a matter
of time until Americans would have to suffer personally for it. It is
a terrible tragedy of life that the innocent so often have to suffer
for the sins of the guilty.
When will we learn that we can't allow our politicians to bully the
world without someone bullying back eventually?
President Bush has authorized continued bombing of innocent people in
Iraq. President Clinton bombed innocent people in the Sudan,
Afghanistan, Iraq, and Serbia. President Bush Senior invaded Iraq and
Panama. President Reagan bombed innocent people in Libya and invaded
Grenada. And on and on it goes.
Did we think the people who lost their families and friends and
property in all that destruction would love America for what happened?
When will we learn that violence always begets violence?
Teaching Lessons
Supposedly, Reagan bombed Libya to teach Muammar al-Qaddafi a lesson
about terrorism. But shortly thereafter a TWA plane was destroyed over
Scotland, and our government is convinced it was Libyans who did it.
When will we learn that "teaching someone a lesson" never teaches
anything but resentment - that it only inspires the recipient to
greater acts of defiance.
How many times on Tuesday did we hear someone describe the terrorist
attacks as "cowardly acts"? But as misguided and despicable as they
were, they were anything but cowardly. The people who committed them
knowingly gave their lives for whatever stupid beliefs they held.
But what about the American presidents who order bombings of innocent
people - while the presidents remain completely insulated from any
danger? What would you call their acts?
When will we learn that forsaking truth and reason in the heat of
battle almost always assures that we will lose the battle?
Losing our Last Freedoms
And now, as sure as night follows day, we will be told we must give up
more of our freedoms to avenge what never should have happened in the
first place.
When will we learn that it makes no sense to give up our freedoms in
the name of freedom?
What to Do
What should be done?
First of all, stop the hysteria. Stand back and ask how this could
have happened. Ask how a prosperous country isolated by two oceans
could have so embroiled itself in other people's business that someone
would want to do us harm. Even sitting in the middle of Europe,
Switzerland isn't beset by terrorist attacks, because the Swiss mind
their own business.
Second, resolve that we won't let our leaders use this occasion to
commit their own terrorist acts upon more innocent people, foreign and
domestic, that will inspire more terrorist attacks in the future.
Third, find a way, with enforceable constitutional limits, to prevent
our leaders from ever again provoking this kind of anger against
America.
Patriotism?
There are those who will say this article is unpatriotic and
un-American - that this is not a time to question our country or our
leaders.
When will we learn that without freedom and sanity, there is no reason
to be patriotic?
Harry Browne was the 2000 Libertarian presidential candidate. You can
read more of his articles at www.HarryBrowne.org, and his books are
available at www.HBBooks.com.
For those that are interested, the Lamont-Doherty Cooperative Seismographic Network (LCSN) has recorded the activity that happened at the World Trade Center so you can realistically feel what was felt there and nearby for the impact and collapse of the buildings.
LCSN Link: http://www.ldgo.columbia.edu/lcn.html
Artificial intelligence is no match for natural stupidity.
I was impressed that Slashdot and the internet in general did as well as they did yesterday considering the no doubt unprecedented load and traffic.
I see even classic Slashdot is now pretty much unusable on dial up anymore.
So, I have 142 average to high-res images on a page I threw together, as well as several videos. The site, http://www.students.bucknell.edu/ekrout/images/911 _In_America/images/gallery/index.html, should be able to take high-abuse in terms of bandwidth, etc. It's a resource, so feel free to use it. Thanks.
If you celebrate Xmas, befriend me (538
Hey, I'd settle for stationing a Marine in the cockpit of each plane... At least it'd force potential hijackers to smuggle on guns or bombs (which is much more difficult).
Every year during my review, I just pray the words "slashdot.org" aren't mentioned.
The United States' sky was blue, perfectly blue. Empty, simple, clear, clean, blue. Throughout the country, millions of people looked up at the sky on Tuesday to see the most perfect, cloudless sky that has existed for many, many years.
Except for over New York City. The sky over Manhattan was obscured by thick, black smoke and dust from the remains of the World Trade Center. They did not share our sky, and we did not share theirs.
The rest of us Americans shared something else, too: television. We spent hours glued to our televisions, placing panicked phones calls every few minutes to friends and family, not to share mutually-known news, but to share the thick silence of horror. Every station broadcast the latest news, without interruption. They all used a common title: "Attack on America," sparing us the usual battle over which network's tragedy-moniker will stick.
By afternoon, many of those that had remained home to watch the news realized that they needed some face time, and headed to the streets for some human contact. Those that had spent the day at work had gotten very little done, finding themselves a part of impromptu television communities in neighboring offices. It was, of course, all that anybody talked about. Strangers gathered on street corners, nodding acquaintances traded news tips, people sobbed and prayed on the sidewalk.
All beneath that perfect blue sky. With every last airplane in the United States resting safely on the tarmac, not a single contrail scarred our endless collective ceiling.
The blood drives started by mid-afternoon, setting up cots in office parks, buses, and abandoned shopping malls. The turnout was so tremendous that crowds of people were turned away, asked to return the next day to give of their blood.
Then there were the American flags. Where happy orange pumpkins and brown ice cream cones had flapped in front of homes and businesses, now crisp new star-spangled banners hung. On Charlottesville's Downtown Mall, four girls bearing carnations walked down the street, offering bright yellow flowers to babies and businessmen, homeless women and waitresses. Nearly everybody in sight bore boutonnieres in their buttonholes, and it was impossible not to cry.
Late afternoon brought perhaps the most surreal event of the day. Congress assembled on the Capital steps and sang a verse of "God Bless America." Republicans, Democrats and Independents sang together, slightly off-key, unaccompanied by music. Under our great blue sky.
Janes has made info from their All the World's Aircraft data available online for the 767 and 757.
Your password has expired, please login to change it.
If Passangers on planes are allowed to be armed and "defend themselves", this kind of thing would happen more often...
--The space between my ears was intentionally left blank--
You said, "Consistent and reasoned responses are imperitive in civilized society. Everything else is barbarism."
What happened yesterday was not just a terrorist attack on the WTC and the Pentagon and not just a terrorist attack on the US. It was a declaration of war against the civilized world.
Any country that supports or harbors terrorists on any scale had better sit down and take a long, hard look at what they are doing today, they probably won't last the next decade if they continue. The people that did this must be exterminated including any who support them.
While I'm not a fan of military action, I would now join the military to take revenge not for my nation, but for the world. The terroists have shown us they can take our own planes and cause such enormous destruction and through this they show that they despise the foundations of civilization itself, trade and travel. There is only one consistent and reasoned response to this, and I feel it is never again.
marotti.com
Afghanistan has been openly harbouring a known terrorist though, and while people worry about a US over-reaction, really the US has been INCREDIBLY restrained in the past couple of years: The USS Cole, the two US embassies, and the attempt to blow up some or all of the Las Angelas airport during the millenium celebrations. We have no idea what, if any, attacks have been thwarted by intelligence (which is the problem with them: The more successful they are the less they are appreciated).
This corresponds to the date of the demonstrations done against the World Economic Forum on September 11 a year ago.
After searching on the Internet (google.com) a site turned up: www.s11.org. After going to the site I saw pages talking about plans in the future to go up against global coporations. S11 appears to be a group that harbors a strong hatred for global corporations and governments.
One thing that struck me as unusual was one of the index pages had something written to the effect of "On September 11, 2000 at 9am we were successful in stopping the World Economic Forum." I found this unusual because on September 11, 2001 around 9am (NYT) the 2 planes crashed into the World Trade Center.
Yesterday I did a whois (Internet) lookup of s11.org. There were a couple of unusual things about the whois record for s11.org. The record (at the time I looked at it) was created on September 11, 2000. The other unusual thing about the record was the expire date was set to September 11, 2001.
I remember the contact for the whois record having a California address. A Los something city I cannot remember the name for.
A few hours ago I attempted to go back to the s11.org site but was getting time out errors. After that I did a whois lookup on the same domain but the domain records had been changed. The whois record now shows a Last Update date of September 12, 2001 and is owned by a domain name squatter.
It is quite unusal that the whois record for this domain name changed so suddenly at this point in time and is now owned by a different organization.
Even though the site has disappeared, you can still see some cached pages of the original s11.org site by going to google.com and searching for s11.
You can also see a graphic of the same 'global justice' graphics used on the S11 site at another site:
www.channel6000.com
One other set of unusual information that seems to indicate a well-planned attack are the relationship easily found between flight numbers of the hijacked planes and the date:
The flights that were hijacked, from United and AA, were numbered as follows:
11, 93, 175, and 77 11 = Yesterday 9+3 = 12 = Today 1+7+5 = 13 = Thursday 7+7 = 14 = Friday
Found this link on Slate:
e rrorism.htm
http://www.ksg.harvard.edu/visions/Publications/t
Written back in '98 apparently, it gives some good insight into plans for dealing with this sort of thing -- I suspect that the "monitoring" aspect of it will get a huge boost from yesterday's attacks.
Do you personally feel that we should forget about what happened? I think we should all be reminded every day about what these cowards did to the United States, in hopes of rallying the troops, so to speak, against the perpetraitors.
If you celebrate Xmas, befriend me (538
Over at nancies.org, we made a Red Cross banner and put it into rotation, which is (IMHO) even better than donating whatever paltry income that sites make from advertising these days.
f
http://www.nancies.org/images/banners/redcross.gi
Anybody is welcome to use it, of course. We linked it to redcross.org, but the Amazon.com thing may be better.
-Waldo
For the record, I personally am not sure what the United States should do about these attacks. I do however think that some thought should be applied rather then just bombing everyone that moves regardless of civilian casualties.
I live in Brooklyn NY, and I witnessed the second WTC tower fall yesterday from the sidewalk in front of my house. There is a Palestinian refrigeration supply store next door to my apartment. They were as upset about the attacks as you are. However, they also feared for their safety and elected to close there stores and go home for the day (as did all the stores in my neighborhood owned by Arabs).
My point is that if we are to do something, it should be a calculated helpful thing to people, not just the obligatory military response. I'm not saying that a military response is not justified I just thing that calmness (i.e. not calling people cowards that disagree with you) should be the order of the day.
Rudy Giuliani's speech urging restraint and togetherness was the right message.
In the aftermath of yesterday's gruesome terrorist attack, I'd like to recommend that we fly black ad banners on our sites for a few days in memory of the victims and their families.
Our hearts and prayers are with them.
GET FREE APPLE STUFF!
Check here for Nasa images of the smoke plume from MODIS.
Krispy Cream is people
How would reading OUR email have stopped middle-eastern terrorists? It wouldn't. And the NSA ALREADY reads THEIR email.
Curtailing the liberties of the many for the transgressions of the few is more evil than flying airplanes into buildings.
If the NSA and the FBI need to read all email to catch criminals now, then how come they never needed to read all US mail before?
"They that give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety."
-- Benjamin Franklin
"There are laws that enslave men, and laws that set them free. " - Sean Connery as King Arthur
FAA keeps flights down... looks like indefintely.g hts/index.html.
- news-95625820010911-070921.html.
http://www.cnn.com/2001/TRAVEL/NEWS/09/12/faa.fli
FBI thinks they have names of hijackers...
http://www.theindychannel.com/sh/news/stories/nat
"Yes.. no matter what the culture, folk dancing is stupid." -MST3K
I agree completly. However, I would want our government to make sure that adequate evidence is first presented. Bombing terrorists groups now may result in allies viewing US actions in a negative fashion. If Bin Ladden is shown to have had a role in this then I would give Afganistan a brief time to turn him over. If they didn't then the US should "ride into town, and kick some bad-guy ass".
s /
I am glad to see Nato and many of its members stepping in with support for the US.
http://www.cnn.com/2001/WORLD/europe/09/12/nato.u
This is the same Britian that has near-weekly bomb attacks from North Ireland?
Liberty in your lifetime
Their choice, and their responsibility, not ours.
/. If the government wants us to respect the law, it should set a better example.
Taco's notions of journalism can sometimes be almost as shaky as his spelling, but I think he and Hemos both have an excellent sense of what to do with the tremendous platform they have and they showed it yesterday.
Three other random thoughts:
First, when I went to donate blood yesterday, I was very touched by the number of people who rushed to help, and in particular by all the foreign students there. (Japanese, especially.) We may all have our differences, but it's good to see that almost all of us are basically on the same side.
Second, and this is kind of out of nowhere, hopefully this incident will take some of the steam out of "anarchist" rioting. If you have honest objections to the IMF, World Bank, Starbucks or whatever, by all means protest, demonstrate, get arrested, but please start leaving it at that. The "black bloc" folks may think they're the ultimate badasses with their slingshots and gas masks, but yesterday should have made it clear that there's two kinds of people in the world and they're over here with us.
Finally, and I'm aiming this mostly at myself but encouraging others to join in -- yesterday brought home just how insane it is to get enraged over whether one should say Linux or GNU/Linux or what Craig Mundie said about Linux. The world needs free software, it needs fair use of information but it doesn't need more hate. Certainly not over software.
If the passengers on those planes had been armed they probably would have mostly shot each other in panic in the second or so before one or more of them managed to puncture the fuselage and depressurize the airplane. Besides, since nobody spotted the hijackers as terrorists until they acted, they would have been just as able as any other passenger to get on board packing heat. I'd prefer a solution that makes the survival of the passengers and the safe landing of the aircraft possible, and even probable.
I see even classic Slashdot is now pretty much unusable on dial up anymore.
I know this is off topic for this story, I posted this info on the story about gas prices but with the 700+ +2 comments I doubt many people saw it.
On the radio in to work today they were interviewing Michigan's Attorney General, Jennifer M. Granholm, about the sharp raise in gas prices. According to the major gas distributors, the price of gas at the retail level should NOT be affected. Any gas stations that have raised their prices significantly are doing so illegally.
She encouraged everyone that drives past gas stations, in Michigan, that have raised their prices greatly to report it to the attorney general website so that they can take action against said gas stations.
She also said to remember which gas stations are doing it and never by gas from them again.
I am also sure that the Attorney Generals of other states will also be looking in to similar cases in their states. The url for your state's attorney general is www.ag.state.$state.us and replace $state with your 2 letter abreviation.
All I have to say is thanks to everyone at Slashdot for doing such a great job. Not just the Slashcrew who kept Slashdot alive during tremendous traffic, but to the many contributors that make this place a great community of information and a tremendous resource to us all.
:)
When ABC, CNN, and FoxNews were down Slashdot was there to disseminate mirrors, other official and unnoficial news sites (BBC, etc..), and countless valuable info. I know the servers were a little stressed, but overall I think this is a testament to the planning of the Slashdot site (network, servers, admins, VA Linux, etc..) and shows how the major news sites can learn a thing or two from us nerds
JOhn
Campaign for Liberty
An act of unthinkable and horrific violence was brought upon our citizens today. An act committed by cowards. An act of unthinkable magnitude. The media is wildly speculating the complete ramifications of this act. I assure you, the impact will be huge. At this point in time the Asian markets are opening at a 5% drop (The lowest level in 17 years). The fiscal impact is simply the tip of the ice burg.
Money, lives, and property are not the issue of the day (in my opinion). I personally lost friends to this tragedy and I do not wish to lower the value of human life in any fashion. In America values, ideals, and our rights have always taken a precedent over human life, and this is simply another example of this.
All that is possible must be done to bring those responsible to trial. The must be punished for their actions but, done in a legal and just way. They have infringed on the rights of countless 1000's but, this DOES NOT give us the right to remove theirs. I whole-heartedly support the death sentence for all (those responsible and those who harbor them) involved but, we as a nation must do so in a fair and just manner. If we do not do so, all the lives lost today will be for nothing. They (whomever they are) will have won and triumphed over us. They have wounded us and we will have struck ourselves the fatal blow. We cannot remove the rights of the citizens' (any citizen, victim or attacker) of this country. Doing so simple crumbles the foundation on which this country was built on.
We as American's must understand that this will take time. Tomorrow we will not wake up and see the men responsible in custody. This is for good reason. The reason we do not act out in overt aggression is because our country was founded upon the ideals against those actions. We would put ourselves on the same level as the cowards responsible.
Today at least 4 men gave their lives for a cause they believed was just. We as Americans may not believe people could do such a thing. What we must understand is that Americans do this everyday, and especially on this horrible day. So far at least 250+ men and women died attempting to rescue the victims of this act of terrorism. These are the heroes. We shouldn't speak of this horrid act; we should speak of the bravery of the countless firemen, policemen, and random people that risked their lives for the sake of saving another. This is the pride of America today. This is the silver lining to the horrid cloud that has settled over our cities.
Tonight, America sleeps, scared and confused. Tomorrow I hope America rises with a sense of unity and strength. I hope that this will be the tie that binds men and women of all ages, races, sexes, creeds, and beliefs together to help build our cities and our spirit back up higher then before.
Sleep tonight praying for unison of the American spirit. Let us not wake and demand blood but, demand justice and peace. This is what America stands for today in my heart and I hope this is what it will be when I awake from sleep tomorrow.
God Bless.
And may all those who perished today have their place in our hearts as martyrs for America and their place in heaven.
AT 12:55 in the Senate today Senator Kerry just suggested that we should rebuild the twin towers. He went on to say that this is the only adequate monument that could possibly be raised, a tribute to our democracy and capitalism. He said to those who would mark the new building as a target: "We have no shortage of tall buildings or monuments; this is not a question of targets, it is a question of our strength and of our national resolve."
America: The Good Neighbor.
Widespread but only partial news coverage was given recently to a remarkable editorial broadcast from Toronto by Gordon Sinclair, a Canadian television commentator. What follows is the full text of his trenchant remarks as printed in the Congressional Record:
"This Canadian thinks it is time to speak up for the Americans as the most generous and possibly the least appreciated people on all the earth.
Germany, Japan and, to a lesser extent, Britain and Italy were lifted out of the debris of war by the Americans who poured in billions of dollars and forgave other billions in debts. None of these countries is today paying even the interest on its remaining debts to the United States.
When France was in danger of collapsing in 1956, it was the Americans who propped it up, and their reward was to be insulted and swindled on the streets of Paris. I was there. I saw it.
When earthquakes hit distant cities, it is the United States that hurries in to help. This spring, 59 American communities were flattened by tornadoes. Nobody helped.
The Marshall Plan and the Truman Policy pumped billions of dollars into discouraged countries. Now newspapers in those countries are writing about the decadent, warmongering Americans.
I'd like to see just one of those countries that is gloating over the erosion of the United States dollar build its own airplane. Does any other country in the world have a plane to equal the Boeing Jumbo Jet, the Lockheed Tri-Star, or the Douglas DC10? If so, why don't they fly them? Why do all the International lines except Russia fly American Planes?
Why does no other land on earth even consider putting a man or woman on the moon? You talk about Japanese technocracy, and you get radios. You talk about German technocracy, and you get automobiles. You talk about American technocracy, and you find men on the moon - not once, but several times and safely home again.
You talk about scandals, and the Americans put theirs right in the store window for everybody to look at. Even their draft-dodgers are not pursued and hounded. They are here on our streets, and most of them, unless they are breaking Canadian laws, are getting American dollars from ma and pa at home to spend here.
When the railways of France, Germany and India were breaking down through age, it was the Americans who rebuilt them. When the Pennsylvania Railroad and the New York Central went broke, nobody loaned them an old caboose. Both are still broke.
I can name you 5000 times when the Americans raced to the help of other people in trouble. Can you name me even one time when someone else raced to the Americans in trouble? I don't think there was outside help even
during the San Francisco earthquake.
Our neighbors have faced it alone, and I'm one Canadian who is damned tired of hearing them get kicked around. They will come out of this thing with their flag high. And when they do, they are entitled to thumb their nose at the lands that are gloating over their present troubles. I hope Canada is not one of those."
Stand proud, America!
Technoli
I see many folks advocating the immediate violent retaliation response, even before evidence is gathered and proof is assembled to identify the culprits. This is foolishness.
The people behind the attacks obviously had excellent planning and coordination, and were totally dedicated. The response has to have better planning and better coordination, and be just as dedicated (though not to the point of suicidal attackers.) Knee-jerk reactions against an enemy that has demonstrated such ability to plan are foolish -- the enemy may already have planned for them -- and nothing would look as foolish as throwing military might around only to miss time after time.
Reflexive, violent reactions are why a matador wins over a bull in a bull fight, despite the bull's larger size and greater strength. The attackers have demonstrated they have skill, planning, and patience enough to manage this attack -- the response *must* be just as planned and methodical to prevent them from doing any more.
This does not mean a nice response, this just means it must be an *effective* response.
There is more to this than just trying to find the leader behind the attack. The entire organization must be rooted out -- I would prefer to see that done first, in fact, so that the leader behind this can see that nothing of the organization, nothing he was in charge of, none of the people he led or trained will be left to survive his execution, that there will be no legacy left behind, while we rebuild and continue on.
I read it was $750 million, and would cost $1.5 billion today.
That is a lot, but with (I estimate here) 100 million taxpayers in the US, we are looking at $15 a head.
A small price to pay to help show the world we will not be cowed by terrorism.
Many people (Bill Gates, Larry Ellison, and others) could even actually pay for such a thing with their own personal funds, as mind boggling as that may seem.
It can be done.
We might also want to consider sending a few billion dollars to Israel.
Just because it CAN be done, doesn't mean it should!
I'm not sure how to take this comment. Bush hasn't done anything wrong yet. I don't really understand why anyone would be giving him a hard time. I happened to fully agree with his current game plan. Also, the White House is controlling everything that's going to the media right now. I think they're doing a great job so far. They have yet to officially blame anyone yet, and the FBI, ATF, MassPort, US Marshall Service, US Attorney General, and about every other know law enforcement agency has jumped on board to try and find out who exactly is to blame. I'm sure the majority of American's are convinced that it was a certian Saudi who's haggin out in Afganistan, but until they know for sure the White House hasn't made a statement about it.
Um, this is my sig.
Your speculation is bullshit. Your claims are groundless. Privacy advocates do not have the blood on their hands. It was lax security at the airports that caused this, and even they are not to blame. Those that are to blame are somewhere in the middle east giving each other high fives that their plan worked as well as it did.
I'm the big fish in the big pond bitch.
http://www.cetan.com/wtcpics/
Thumbnails and large images.
In Soviet Russia...michael would be rotting in Siberia!
The thing is, the US can't win. If we don't act, then we are accused of "not caring about anything that doesn't happen in the US". If we do act, then we are accused of imperialism.
Perhaps the rest of the world perceives the US to only act internationally for its own interests. This would explain the "can't win" situation. In other words, if the US only intervenes internationally when it will protect US economic or other interests, then the "they don't care, damn imperialists!" attitude may be justified.
Think Afganistan, Kuwait, Sudan, Iran, Iraq, Libya, Central America and all the other self-serving and sometimes less-than-successful US actions internationally.
I, personally, am not anti-US, but I think many of you Americans are quite blind to the justice of your actions around the world, at times. Kudos to the many posters who argue reasonably and encourage us all to see the many sides to this issue.
Christopher
Mozilla
And forwarded them on to your nearest FBI office - you may have something, maybe, maybe not - but by your fuzzy recolection of the address on the WHOIS record, it sounds like you don't...
:(
Reason is the Path to God - Anon
AP is announcing that a police/FBI raid is occuring at the Westin hotel right now: Story HERE!
---------The early bird gets the worm, but the second mouse gets the cheese.
Remember that /. is more or less a place to pick arguments, and that is what I saw yesterday on this site. Please tell me how you can watch people jump out of the world trade center in saddened panic and then respond with the devil's advocate position.
With the request of many radio stations and mass emails going around, i too hope you will wear red, white and blue tommorow and replace your favorite sports flag with the american flag.
If not for the "pledge" to the united states, then do it for the honor, valour and unity of everyone working together.
This country is going to have to return to the harsh lessons of previous wars: if you want to make an omellete, you have to break some eggs.
Please send this letter or something similar to your representatives in Congress. Email is largely ignored, so I recommend printing and mailing.
Encourage your family, friends, coworkers and neighbors to do the same. Billions of dollars will be needed to rebuild the damage. Donating money is a good deed, but the United States must use these billions that we now need, not send it to those who celebrated carnage and destruction.
The terrorists attacked WTC for two reasons, the first of which is that it was symbolic. The second reason is that it would cause massive loss of life.
Now, back some decades it apparently seemed important, for some reason, to build the tallest towers, etc. In fact, a similar argument was used to go to the moon. That's all well and good, but haven't we moved past that?
Malaysia is the latest nation to believe that having the tallest building somehow enhances its national prestige. Is the U.S. really so insecure that it feels it has to compete with nations like Malaysia on this basis? Or is it a case of needing to impress the primitive folk, both within and without our country?
Wouldn't it be better to focus our energies on protecting our borders, skies and buildings in a way that doesn't diminish the freedoms of the residents of the U.S.?
I'm not saying symbolism isn't important to the human psyche, but perhaps if we got past the "mine is bigger than yours" phase, it might change the nature of the battle for the better.
Yes, but just because they were guilty before doesn't mean they're guilty now.
That said, I think the situation is something like this: the Taliban probably would never have signed off on something like this (they have their hands full oppressing their own people -- to those who didn't manage to pick out the news stories going on between the WTC/Pentagon coverage, Kabul is burning even as we speak), know they don't have what it takes to take on the US, and are probably wishing this whole mess just goes away. They are scared, and are probably seriously reconsidering the wisdom of harboring bin Laden.
Osama bin Laden, on the other hand... well, he *claims* he had nothing to do with it, but certainly approved of what happened. I don't know if it is necessarily fair to *blame* him per se for what happened (it could be that it was just a handful of his followers doing something they think the boss would like -- this was not a particularly sophisticated attack by my estimation), but we've certainly got more than enough reason to haul his ass in for questioning.
I think that the Taliban will turn him over eventually, especially if the little internal rebellion thing (could be CIA-inspired, you never know, but...) they're dealing with proves a bit too much for them. They're talking the talk right now, but I can guarandamntee you that they're scared shitless.
People thinking we should start bombing now are missing the point. There are nuclear powers in the region, particularly Pakistan and Israel and very possibly Iraq. The people celebrating this act of terror in the streets of the Middle East are as much decieved about us (if not more so) as many of us are about them, for many of the same reasons, and can't be held culpable because their governments try to prevent them from knowing any better. The thing to do is to twist the arms of the Taliban without getting violent, have them turn over bin Laden by convincing them that he's a liability, and let the man rot for the rest of his life in solitary in Colorado.
/Brian
If we want to live in a safe, civilized nation, we need to give up some of our lesser freedoms.
You make me sick.
You clearly have no understanding of the principals this country was founded on.
There are countries where the government watches over everyone, where nothing is private. I'd sugest you move to one of those places; maybe Iraq? Or Afghanistan?
If a terrorist act can get the American govt to take away it's citizens freedom, even "lesser freedoms", then the terrorists have been successfull.
___
The way to see by faith is to shut the eye of reason. --Ben Franklin
Actually, there is a problem with this.
Please don't get me wrong. I agree we should bomb the shit out of those responsible. If it's Bin Laden, draw and quarter the prick.
The problem is that there is resistance to the Taliban in Afghanistan. If we go and bomb everything, we will be most likely bombing innocent people in the process. Yes, I am aware everyone who died yesterday was innocent. And yes, my heart is in my throat as I write this. But we have to be selective and not start killing for the sake of killing.
If it is Bin Laden, then we should give Afghanastan an ultimatum: give him up or else. If they don't, then go in blazing. Not the other way around. But this time, follow through!
After this is over, we definitely need to review our foriegn policy vis a vis Israel. This is one of the biggest reasons innocent Americans are being targeted.
There are innocent Afghans who probably would like to see the Taliban gone as much as we would. My fear is that we end up killing those people as well.
-Fred
Slant-Six is running some interesting articles about the situation, including a summary of the hints the government has been giving us that war is nearly inevitable.
Got Rhinos?
Geeze, I was wondering when someone would say something like that. And I DO say this as someone from a country that has supported bombings in Serbia, among others, something for which I feel deeply ashamed of my country.
The motherfsckers behind the WTC attack *MUST* be found, prosecuted, executed. Not because we hate them, but because they're dangerous, because crime calls for justice. Because we can't let this go unpunished. Because we have to set an example. And we need that example to be one of justice, not vengeance.
As much as gut reaction makes me want to torture them with my bare hands. I have very dear friends in NYC.
If we go after the civilian populations as well, we'll only prove them they're right to think of us as oppressors who don't care for their lives. And then, we won't be worth a dime more than the WTC attackers.
-- B.
This sig does in fact not have the property it claims not to have.
if anyone wants to know, here are lists of the buisnessness at the world trade center
t ml
t ml
1 World Trade Center (North Tower): http://www.morrisville.edu/Library/wtc/tenants1.h
2 World Trade Center (South Tower): http://www.morrisville.edu/Library/wtc/tenants2.h
The goal of computer science is to build something that will last at least until we've finished building it.
Terrible.
Having people brought in so soon (either for questioning or as suspects) worries me a lot. These attacks show a very high degree of sophistication, and not just in their timing (as many news orginizations have bleeted out of late).
First, you have the fly-by-wire system, installed on all big commerical jets, which just plain won't let you fly the plane into a building. This system has to be disabled without completely destroying your ability to manuver. I have been told that there are very few people around who know how to do this. This person would either have to know which planes would be used for the job in advance and then disable those planes while they are sitting on the ground (while also getting around security on the ground and getting into the hanger, and also not doing so much damage that it would be picked up on preflight checks). Alternativly, the person to disable the system could be on the plane during flight, in which case he/she probably knew they were on a suicide mission. The list of people who can carry out such a job AND are willing to commit suicide must be very, very small.
Secondly, there is a matter of how to hit the WTC. Those buildings were designed to take an aircraft smashing into them, so just flying them into a random position isn't enough. What really made the towers collapse (so say the structural engineers) was the fires breaking out and weaking the steel supports at the top, thus forcing the bottom to take on more weight. To do this, you want a plane with lots of gas in it to cause a bigger fire. Indeed, the planes involved were going to the other end of the country, and would thus have lots of gas on board.
There are probably lots of other details I'm missing, but this is enough to show that these attacks are far more sophisticated then a lot of people know.
Now you want to tell me that these highly planned attacks became so sloppy in implementation that people are being rounded up the day after? Given, humans make mistakes (or maybe the FBI got lucky), but this still seems unlikely. This is what worries me. I think the FBI is starting a witch hunt and will arrest anyone, and the American public will back the entire thing.
Not a typewriter
So far the best graphics I've found, far surpassing any of the lousy diagrams I've seen on CNN, come from the Spanish paper El Pais. This page includes two interactive, animated flash documents (Grafico -- currently the first two pictures) which shows the paths of all four planes, the way they hit the buildings, and how the supports in the towers got severed, leading to the collapse.
n tilla10.swf and http://www.elpais.es/multimedia/internacional/estr uc.swf .
Helps if you know spanish (which I don't), but the pictures speak for themselves.
The actual animations are at http://www.elpais.es/multimedia/internacional/pla
Libertarian Party's Harry Browne's position.
"Your comment violated the postercomment compression filter. Comment aborted"
The problem is that many who read those newspapers are going to be influenced by them in various ways. If a newspaper allows itself to be used as a vehicle to express irrational and unrestrained anger and hatred, then I think it should make it clear that this is what it's doing, in the (probably vain) hope that readers won't be led to believe that what they're reading are reasonable responses to the situation.
In efforts in trying to help
We will donate to the redcross from every t-shirt sold
or please donate directly to the redcross either by blood or money
Well, then, if they won't give up their trash, take out their infrastructure to the point where a troop of Cub Scouts could overthrow what's left of the Taliban armed forces. That would hurt the guilty where they live (especially when the resistance got hold of them) and be beneficial or at worst neutral toward the innocent bystanders.
/. If the government wants us to respect the law, it should set a better example.
AOPA Has information on when the airspace system will be reopened. I expect it will be a few days till its back to something like normal over much of the country and the weekend till its OK in New York and Washington DC.
And I would expect the state of emergency in NYC to continue threw Rosh Hashonah next week. It will be quite strange driving into New York City this Friday for Shabbos and Yom Tov.
Erlang Developer and podcaster
While there is a certain amount of complexity involved in this, I wouldn't say that this is beyond Bin Laden's capabilities. Remember that a few years back they managed a coordinated attack on two embassies in Africa within minutes of eachother. So they definitely are capable of the logistics necessary to pull off this kind of attack. Let's look at what is really required to pull this off:
1) Terrorists with the ability to fly an airplane, a skill that can be readily obtained at any number of places given money to pay for it (and certainly Bin Laden has cash).
2) Knives. Knives are VERY easy to get onto a plane. I have more than once wondered why nobody questioned my bringing of a pocket knife, etc, on board. When I heard about what happened my first assumption was that it had been done with knives (not good for taking on counter-terrorists, but if you don't plan to ever land the plane they are very effective).
Now, given that, the actual hard part is setting up the terrorist cells to pull this off and plan the operation. It was probably executed by four seperate cells opeating independently but with a coordinated schedule. It's likely that each cell had NO IDEA that other planes were involved. Somebody centrally plans where to strike, which planes to take, and then just issues orders to the cells.
Don't get me wrong, Iraq is definitely on the top of a short list of suspects, but I don't think Bin Laden can be reasonably rules out given his history. At the same time, I agree that we shouldn't leap to conclusions.
This sig has been temporarily disconnected or is no longer in service
Why don't you stop the conspiracy theories for a short while and let the facts of the disaster unfold, instead of trying to incite more hysteria No attack this big can go unnoticed without leaving behind enough fingerprints to point to those responsible.
make world, not war
- Every single traditional news outlet basically failed yesterday, and if it weren't for mirrors of such sites' data, we wouldn't understand the events of 9-11 as clearly.
Interestingly, the major news outlets that didn't fail was the Washington Post. Why? They use the Akamai infrastructure, which provides distributed caching of static content. The Post pages were quite nippy, even during the first hours. (Ironically, one of the victims of the WTC crashes was the co-founder and CTO of Akamai.)What does revenge possibly solve? Killing is wrong, period. Killing more people is not going to bring back those already fallen. Killing more people is not going to make the world a better place. We must take a stand that violence must end, that we will not take it, and that we are not going to stoop to their level.
Have you seen the situation with the Palistinians in Israel? Israelis have been targets of terrorism for decades, and have been "retaliating" for these attacks for decades as well, with bombings, missile attacks, land troops, etc. All that has happend is an increase in hostility and loss of life on both sides.
There are ways of preventing this that actually work. Let's not make the situation worse by causing yet more death and destruction. The world had enough of that yesterday. We need no more today.
fear this:
http://www.azzam.com/html/talibanhelp.htm
Please give your mod points to others, Im at the cap. They will appreciate it more
I keep thinking about how these events could have been thwarted. We probably cannot prevent every single hijack attempt, especially not such a sophisticated one. But my mind keeps wandering back to the fact that the hijackers only had razors and knives. I can't believe fellow Americans would allow a few hijackers armed with knives to take over a whole plane, containing 60 or 70 able-bodied persons. A report on Poliglut indicates that people DID attempt to overcome the hijackers on the plane that was headed toward Camp David. The only thing I can think of is that the passangers were not told they were going to be killed, so were just going along with it. However, this is refuted by the calls the flight attendent on flight 77 (I think) made, indicating that the terrorists "put" everybody, including the pilot, at the back of the plane, and then *told* them to call their loved ones to tell them they were going to die. I don't understand how two or three terrorists can simply move the entire 60-70 people to the back of a plane (armed only with knives mind you), and *then* tell them that they were going to die, with not ONE person attempting to overcome them. I'm boggled, and hope that in a similar situation I would do my best to thwart the hijackers. Perhaps, like on the Camp David plane, the hijackers told the passengers they had a bomb and thus the passengers did not want to try anything funny. But if you're being told you are going to die anyway, who cares...might as well try...
I really hope that Americans tried to do something...
It's 10 PM. Do you know if you're un-American?
I'd most certainly pass. I leave death defying defiance to hotter heads. Pick your battles.
Guess who'll win if the 50+ people have the guts to rush them all at once. This boils down to people thinking that they'll be allright because the nice terrorists will let you go once they get what they're asking for- that's what we've all been told.
In that situation, you're in reality dead until out of dumb luck they let you go or you're rescued by someone else- or you win your life back.
I am not merely a "consumer" or a "taxpayer". I am a Citizen of the State of Texas
It's very important that we not let terrorists pull our strings. Certainly, closing up newly discovered vulnerabilities is reasonable -- depending on how it's done -- but the best "revenge" really will be to not be swerved an inch by this attack.
"Those who have never entered upon scientific pursuits know not a tithe of the poetry by which they are surrounded."
As a citizen of Colorado, I think I speak for everyone here when I say that we don't want him.
Very, very unlikely. Israel has the might, the ability, and the will to turn everything from the Mediteranean to the Indian sea into a big sheet of glass. They don't need to be so circumspect.
Remember, the Islamic world is derived from the lineage of Ishmael, and the Jewish world from Isaac -- the sons of Abraham. No hate is worse than the hate between blood.
Potato chips are a by-yourself food.
This Article has some good updated info on what the US has found out about the terrorists so far.
Whoever still has petroleum to sell at $100 or so per barrel.
I see even classic Slashdot is now pretty much unusable on dial up anymore.
Given that one of the pilots appeared to be a student at Embry-Riddle, he's be familiar with the devices.
Eric
"Seven Deadly Sins? I thought it was a to-do list!"
I'm not saying this is going to happen, in fact, I think it's unlikly, but what did the US do after it dropped the first atomic bomb? Dropped another. Why? To show that we could do it again. Result: Japan surrendered.
I keep thinking to myself that the reason no one has stepped forward and claimed resposibility is that the attack isn't over. Once airlines are running again, I fear a second wave of terrorism.
If you think about it, the FAA would have to ground planes until they are able to establish new security procedures nation-wide. That alone would badly damage our economy. Not to mention that I'm sure none of us would feel safe at home or at work for awhile.
Just my horribly pessimistic 2 cents.
Terrorists have been crying wolf for far too long now. Any country that turns its face away from the fact that they have known terrorists operating from their country, and don't ask for help from the USA now, should not expect any of their citizens to be safe from the wrath and coming justice of the US of A. I don't care what their religion is, or who in America believes that killing innocents to 'make a point' of our decadence is right. If you're going to cry wolf and try to distribute your FUD, you'd better be able to back it up with force and boldy stand in the light by your assumptions, instead of cower in the shadows, denying all involvement. I've said it before, and I'll say it again: "It's time to kick some ass."
Arlington, VA, home of the Pentagon, is my hometown. My mother heard the explosion from just a couple of miles away.
This is a truly national tragedy. Whatever they do with the site, if they rebuild or not, they will surely include a memorial to those who have died, which is the right thing to do.
sulli
RTFJ.
Why should we increase our support of Israel ten-fold? So that we can get attacked again? It's high time we realize the we are vulnerable, and will always be vulnerable as long as we maintain an open society. Does that mean that we shouldn't respond to this latest attack? Of course not. But at the same time, we should realize that our foreign policy is literally driving large numbers of people into suicidal frenzys!
Rather than go into a blind rage of fury, we need to look long and hard at how the rest of the world views our policies and talk about whether the risk those policies create offsets the benefits. We may very well find that the lives lost in NYC yesterday are the price we pay for cheap gas. After all, oil is the only reason we give a damn about the middle east. I know I'm being overly simplistic, but the reality is that our actions have consequences. We need to be willing to talk openly and honestly about these things. Letting the rage of the moment cloud our judgement in this time of crisis is the worst thing we can do.
I know that ground support for most such things would be very important, but it really seems like these people wouldn't have needed any help once the planes were in the air, and wouldn't have needed more people in advance.
People have sited the close timing of the attacks, but that would only take an afternoon with a set of flight schedules. Getting groups of people on a set of planes at the same time is the sort of thing that anyone planning, say, a family reunion can pull off, and get on one of the planes themselves.
The weapons seem to have been small blades attached to plastic handles. These are neither hard to come by, nor hard to get in sufficient quantity, nor hard to get by security (someone clean-shaven who doesn't want to check luggage?), nor hard to assemble.
The hard part really would be getting a group of people who could fight effectively with knives and could frighten people into obeying with some people who could fly airliners, who were willing to die intentionally, without tipping off any intelligence agencies; but if the group has formed, there's no need for more people left behind (aside, perhaps, from a spiritual leader; but the leader doesn't need to have any idea what's going on).
Probably the hardest thing would be thinking of the attack in the first place-- noticing that it would be easy to take control of an airplane, and that an airplane would make a very effective weapon. But again, there's no reason that the person who realized this couldn't have been one of the people who went along.
We will probably find out that the terrorists had families and friends, and that some of these had some idea about the plans, because even determined terrorists can't always keep a secret. But, for instance, bin Laden probably actually didn't know what the plans were, or exactly who was involved, even if the terrorists turn out to be from his group, precisely because he wouldn't want to be vital as a living person to the success of this and other acts; he'd want to be able to say that the reason it worked was simply because there are people who are both clever and sufficiently angry at the US, and that, as long as the US behaves badly, this is certain to happen every once in a while, even without any obvious leaders.
"we know who our enemies are and hardly need proof to go to war with them"
OK, then tell me: who are they? What is their address? What are their names? Who are we at war with? You don't know, do you?
Right now we are at war with Fear. Later today, or in a few days, we may know precisely who the enemy is. Until then, declaring war is absurd.
Civilization is not an illusion. Some people act barbarous at times. Society tries to prevent them from harming others, but often it fails. That doesn't mean you give up on it.
that the passengers on the other planes didn't act similarly. However, the word is that the terrorists on the other planes were telling the passengers that they would be alright if they were obedient.
Have we entered into an era where we can't ever again make assumptions about the safety of the passengers? These terrorists have now demonstrated what to do and how to do it; no doubt there will be many, many copycats.
Sad to say, but in a hijack situation, maybe passengers should probably assume they are already dead and do everything possible to bring down the plane before they become a flying bomb. And I hate to say it, but we may have even entered a time where the military would be negligent if they didn't shoot down a hijacked plane heading towards a metropolitan area.
I know that arming crew members with standard firearms is too dangerous in a plane (explosive depresurization etc) but what about giving them something like this (tranquilizer gun): http://www.pneudart.com/projector/proj_179b.html
Especially if there were at least two people armed with those on each flight. (say pilot and head steward/stewardest)
It give them a chance to stop such future trageties in the future.
Just a thought.
==>Lazn
Please excuse the consistent use of male nouns and pronouns in the following. It made this easier to write and to understand, so is it that bad this once? Also, please ignore any Owellian reference you think you may see. That's the farthest thing from my intent. Hope this helps a little.
I'm going to write something now that is so thoroughly and utterly Canadian in sentiment, although I'm sure it's a view shared by many other countries and individuals the world over. The United States is like our big brother. That is meant in the most fraternal of ways. It is a role Canada, and many other countries, willingly accept. The analogy is accurate in a number of ways. As the economically and culturally larger, more physically powerful sibling, you sometimes flaunt your power and tease your smaller brethren. But when one of us falls and skins our proverbial knee, you are always first to arrive on the scene, to make sure that everyone is ok, and safe. In return for the safety and protection you provide, we make you laugh, we sing and dance, and make arts and crafts of every kind for your amusement. We do some extra chores for you when the need arises, and we even put up with your teasing. We do this gladly, usually, for the benefit of letting you have your way most of the time, is the ability to fall asleep every night knowing that things aren't going to be so bad tomorrow, because somewhere out there our big brother is looking out for us.
And the best thing is you really seem to relish the situation. America and it's citizens, although as equally capable of being evil and misguided as any population on the planet, inarguably live in the freest and most progressive society in the world. Although other countries all over the earth have certain benefits and advantages over the U.S, when taken as a whole, America is without peer in so many more ways. Have no doubt, you can be cruel sometimes, but you always seem to make up for it in the long run, and certainly you've contributed the most to our home, this beautiful and singular planet we share, and that definitely entitles you to some concessions.
We hate to admit it, and will only do so under a firm twisting of our arm, to make us say uncle as it were, but we do look up to you and we think you're pretty great. Our big brother has done great things; you're the strongest, fastest, smartest, kindest, most noble and good big brother... a little brother or sister could ever ask for. And now you're hurt, someone sucker-punched you when you weren't looking, in your own backyard no less. We are all in shock; we are all hurt, by seeing our protective and kind sibling get rocked back a little bit. Someone snuck up on you from behind and gave you a black eye, and I know I speak for a lot of people around the world, all your loyal brother and sisters, when I say we can't wait to see you get back up again. We can't wait to see you rise to your feet, shake the dust off, and accept our hugs and affection as we try to reassure you that we're right here to offer any help you need. We can't wait to see you gather yourself, re-affirm your bearing, and then go get the guys that did this too you. We can't wait to see you catch up with the bad guys, and wipe them off the face of the earth, once and for all.
We know you'll take your time. We know you're going to make sure you have the right people before you act. We know you'll do your best to protect the innocent as you exact your completely justified revenge. We know you're going to get them this time, no matter what it takes. And we are so happy to know that soon our home, our global neighborhood, will be a whole lot safer for all of us. We are so proud to be your siblings, America. We may argue sometimes, but it's nothing serious... not like this. You really are the best, and we are so grateful for all you've ever done. We couldn't ask for a better friend and brother. Go get them. We've got your back. Peace to each and every one of you.
Years later, a doctor will tell me that I have an I.Q. of 48, and am what some people call "mentally retarded".
They hit the "headquarters" of our monetary power and the headquarters of our military power, why not the headquarters of our political power as well? (that would also make the White House a potential target)
I don't think the last plane was headed for the Pentagon, I think the only reason they sent two planes at the WTC is that they couldn't take out two buildings with one plane.
While I would tend to support this position in most circumstances, planes are special. At altitude, firing a gun on a plane is very likely to puncture the skin of the aircraft causing depressurization. On the street an errant bullet in unlikely to cause any significant harm. On a plane, the opposite is true. Any errant shot has a very real chance to take down the plane.
From looking at the various accounts of what happened, it is obvious the terrorists somehow managed to gain control of the plane. Barring inside jobs from certified airline pilots who would have somehow managed to infiltrate the airlines, and assuming the people initially controlling the planes are the good guys, we should re-think the way PLANES are built and the processes surrounding loading and boarding planes, so that:
bleah.
Extraordinary Vacations. Exceptional Prices
Okay, fair, but how many other states have dank cement pits for holding people two nasty to be allowed to become martyrs?
/Brian
Do you personally feel that we should forget about what happened? I think we should all be reminded every day about what these cowards did to the United States, in hopes of rallying the troops, so to speak, against the perpetraitors.
I'm glad to see another viewpoint in the same vein as mine.
After the emotional rollercoaster that was yesterday, a group of us went out en masse to unwind over beer. Our first stop, an Atlanta restaurant/lounge called Mumbo Jumbo, sported not a single television. This was something of a respite, having spent our morning and days surrounded by streaming video on large screens. Six hundred dollars of bar tab later, we moved on to a brewhouse up the street, which had multiple TVs. For a while, a group of us sat outside. After a bit, most of us migrated back in to commune and discuss. Occasionally someone would grab someone else's chin, turn the head, and say "Let it go," but it's a horribly unsimple task. The historic cry of 'Remember the Alamo' crawls to the surface, horribly apropo.
The first few days, we as a country will take the time to save those who were wounded, free those who are trapped, and pray for those who have died.
When the smoke has settled, we as a country will mourn. I myself will be wearing a black armband during this period, and I hope others will do the same. The injured and families of the fallen need to see and know that we support them, and that we care. It may not speed the healing, and it will not erase the scars, but the repairs will be stronger for it.
When the mourning is done, things will change. As a country, we've gotten lax. I travel pretty regularly, and I have no doubt that several of my standard carry on items (such as my Gerber Multitool) will be moved to my luggage. Security inspections will be tougher. Time to travel will be increased.
The coming months will be difficult as things are sorted out. There will be arguments about privacy, and increased pushes for surveillance technologies that could have prevented this. There are many facets to this that will be examined and fought over.
With recently uncovered facts, we now know how these deeds were perpetrated. No guns, no explosions. Simple hand implements and the knowledge of how to use them. Airline staff aren't combat trained, but what if they were? How could things have happened differently if people were better equipped, mentally and physically, to handle a hand to hand attack? Could you defend yourself against someone with a knife? Having studied some martial arts and sword fighting techniques, I'm glad I can say I could hold my own against an untrained attacker or even a slightly capable one.
What about support? How many people reading this are experienced enough to perform first aid or CPR? We have first hand amateur video of a brave doctor rushing into the dense dust and smoke to assist injured people at serious risk to his own life. In his running narrative, he mentions going to assist those who need help, because "he's not one of them." Finding yourself unhurt in a disaster environment, what would you do? What CAN you do?
An interview on CNN yesterday with a security expert who investigated the previous WTC bombing pointed out that this was a 'high concept' attack, as opposed to 'high tech'. We as a country are dependant upon technology to make things easier for us, to take the hard work out life. If not for the macabre aspect of the notion, I'd almost think the Amish were laughing at us now.
To paraphrase a piece of David Eddings fiction (and poorly), the United States reels from crisis to crisis like a drunken sailor. Everything is fine as long as the party is still going, and no one gets hurt. Now, in the wake of tragedy, the entire nation is galvanized into awareness of the world around them. Our populace, as a whole, has likely learned more about foreign policy and U.S. world involvement in the past two days than it has been aware of over the past two years.
Many people have likened this incident to the imfamous day of Pearl Harbor, and it's fitting only in that we are now a united people in the sister causes of mourning and vengeance. Many people I've spoken with take small comfort in knowing there will be a reprisal, and that it will be strong and it will not be forgotten.
Even now, other countries and world organizations are moving their pieces and formulating strategy to insure this doesn't happen again. When the reprisals are done, and justice is delivered, then what? What lessons will be learned and how will we apply them?
- billn
It occurred that there ought to be a "safe mode" for planes straying into sensitive airspace on purpose or not.
I would propose a small black box hooked into the avionics system that could lock out normal control input and force the plane to climb to a safe altitude and circle. The circling flight path should be made to that the plane slowly drifts out of the area.
The box would have to be inaccessible from inflight access, and should be triggered by a powerful radio signal with a particular message. The strength of the required signal should be such that it would be literally impossible to generate in absence of a full blown commercial radio station.
Once the plance has drifted far enough away that the signal strenght has gone down, control would be restored. Even if terrorists were to take over a radio station and broadcast the message the consequences would be harmless, and the powerful signal is extremely easy to find and shut down by authorities. In order to overcome this the terrorists would have to attack radio stations on the ground simultaneously with the hijackings. Since there are many commercial stations with high broadcast power in most areas of value, backups are easily found. This idea is hereby submitted to the public domain, and cannot be patented.
But you wouldn't want mace (or pepper spray) used in a flight.
.25 sec burst).
Why?
Let me relate a personal incident: My GF (at the time) had a keychain style pepper spray device. We loaded it with the inert spray, practiced a while, then loaded it with the real stuff. When we loaded the real thing, the safety accidentally got released, and as it was being loaded, a very small squirt of the pepper spray occurred in our apartment kitchen (I am talking maybe a
We gagged, we sneezed, we choked. Nowhere in the apartment was "safe" from that little bit of pepper spray. We ended up going outside and drove to one of her relative's house, waiting for the pepper spray to go away.
However, in an airplane cabin, with recycled air - there is no "other place" to go to...
Reason is the Path to God - Anon
and what happens a few years after we leave?
Need a Catering Connection
Lets assume we could and will nuke the entire Middle East. Total annihilation? What about their operatives already in other countries? In the United States?
Also remember that nuclear bombs can be built in briefcases and a lot of fissionable material has gone missing from the former Soviet Union. We nuke their homeland; New York gets vaporized the next day.
Liberty in your lifetime
I have heard several news reports say that the terrorists used knives and gained entrance to the cockpit probably by killing stewardesses to trick a pilot into leaving, killing him and entering.
Now, my question is: if there is a significant incident on board an airplane (something to make the pilot leave the cockpit), are they not required immediately to report this to, well, someone?
It seems like if this was how it was done (knives, stewardesses), there would have been advance warning.
Just a question. No flames please.
-l
In order for this scenario to play out, we would have to have, by routine, had jet fighters armed with air-to-air ordinance, and either ready to scramble somewhere within a 10 minute radius, or already in the air. Either that, we would have to equip trained law officers of these municipalities, or post soldiers, with munitions such as Stinger missiles in a position where they could get to the right place in time to make the right shot.
Then there is the issue of what happens if you miss ? If you hit the target, does it cause just as much damage when/where it crashes ? Not to mention if our free U.S. culture would even tolerate armed troopers on every corner ?
Finally, there is an issue of figuring out what's going on and who is doing what and where ? Meaning, there are several planes in NY airspace. Unless the pilot punches in 4 key the transponder code, or gets communications down to the ground that he's one of those "many other planes", how do you a plane that is both a 5 minute proxmity to Newark Aiport as it is to the WTC isn't heading in the direction of the former ?
Of course, as I say this, there are fighter jets, armed and afloat above my offices as I write.
healyourchurchwebsite.com - WWJB?
He means the horizontal center. A glancing blow on one of the corners wouldn't have done it. Remember, the buildings withstood the kinetic energy of the impact. What collapsed them was the burning jet fuel that eventually melted the superstructure. In other words, they had to hit the center in order to put as much fuel within the building as possible.
Why not a "panic" mode that puts everyone in the plane but the cockpit to sleep? Couldn't that simply be done with an air pressure change?
If our ancestors had thought as you do, we would still be part of England.
Carefree highway, let me slip away on you.
Charles Lindbergh's Des Moines Speech of 1941
It is now two years since this latest European war began. From that day in September, 1939, until the present moment, there has been an over-increasing effort to force the United States into the conflict.
That effort has been carried on by foreign interests, and by a small minority of our own people; but it has been so successful that, today, our country stands on the verge of war.
At this time, as the war is about to enter its third winter, it seems appropriate to review the circumstances that have led us to our present position. Why are we on the verge of war? Was it necessary for us to become so deeply involved? Who is responsible for changing our national policy from one of neutrality and independence to one of entanglement in European affairs?
Personally, I believe there is no better argument against our intervention than a study of the causes and developments of the present war. I have often said that if the true facts and issues were placed before the American people, there would be no danger of our involvement.
Here, I would like to point out to you a fundamental difference between the groups who advocate foreign war, and those who believe in an independent destiny for America.
If you will look back over the record, you will find that those of us who oppose intervention have constantly tried to clarify facts and issues; while the interventionists have tried to hide facts and confuse issues.
We ask you to read what we said last month, last year, and even before the war began. Our record is open and clear, and we are proud of it.
We have not led you on by subterfuge and propaganda. We have not resorted to steps short of anything, in order to take the American people where they did not want to go.
What we said before the elections, we say [illegible] and again, and again today. And we will not tell you tomorrow that it was just campaign oratory. Have you ever heard an interventionist, or a British agent, or a member of the administration in Washington ask you to go back and study a record of what they have said since the war started? Are their self-styled defenders of democracy willing to put the issue of war to a vote of our people? Do you find these crusaders for foreign freedom of speech, or the removal of censorship here in our own country?
The subterfuge and propaganda that exists in our country is obvious on every side. Tonight, I shall try to pierce through a portion of it, to the naked facts which lie beneath.
When this war started in Europe, it was clear that the American people were solidly opposed to entering it. Why shouldn't we be? We had the best defensive position in the world; we had a tradition of independence from Europe; and the one time we did take part in a European war left European problems unsolved, and debts to America unpaid.
National polls showed that when England and France declared war on Germany, in 1939, less than 10 percent of our population favored a similar course for America. But there were various groups of people, here and abroad, whose interests and beliefs necessitated the involvement of the United States in the war. I shall point out some of these groups tonight, and outline their methods of procedure. In doing this, I must speak with the utmost frankness, for in order to counteract their efforts, we must know exactly who they are.
The three most important groups who have been pressing this country toward war are the British, the Jewish and the Roosevelt administration.
Behind these groups, but of lesser importance, are a number of capitalists, Anglophiles, and intellectuals who believe that the future of mankind depends upon the domination of the British empire. Add to these the Communistic groups who were opposed to intervention until a few weeks ago, and I believe I have named the major war agitators in this country.
I am speaking here only of war agitators, not of those sincere but misguided men and women who, confused by misinformation and frightened by propaganda, follow the lead of the war agitators.
As I have said, these war agitators comprise only a small minority of our people; but they control a tremendous influence. Against the determination of the American people to stay out of war, they have marshaled the power of their propaganda, their money, their patronage.
Let us consider these groups, one at a time.
First, the British: It is obvious and perfectly understandable that Great Britain wants the United States in the war on her side. England is now in a desperate position. Her population is not large enough and her armies are not strong enough to invade the continent of Europe and win the war she declared against Germany.
Her geographical position is such that she cannot win the war by the use of aviation alone, regardless of how many planes we send her. Even if America entered the war, it is improbable that the Allied armies could invade Europe and overwhelm the Axis powers. But one thing is certain. If England can draw this country into the war, she can shift to our shoulders a large portion of the responsibility for waging it and for paying its cost.
As you all know, we were left with the debts of the last European war; and unless we are more cautious in the future than we have been in the past, we will be left with the debts of the present case. If it were not for her hope that she can make us responsible for the war financially, as well as militarily, I believe England would have negotiated a peace in Europe many months ago, and be better off for doing so.
England has devoted, and will continue to devote every effort to get us into the war. We know that she spent huge sums of money in this country during the last war in order to involve us. Englishmen have written books about the cleverness of its use.
We know that England is spending great sums of money for propaganda in America during the present war. If we were Englishmen, we would do the same. But our interest is first in America; and as Americans, it is essential for us to realize the effort that British interests are making to draw us into their war.
The second major group I mentioned is the Jewish.
It is not difficult to understand why Jewish people desire the overthrow of Nazi Germany. The persecution they suffered in Germany would be sufficient to make bitter enemies of any race.
No person with a sense of the dignity of mankind can condone the persecution of the Jewish race in Germany. But no person of honesty and vision can look on their pro-war policy here today without seeing the dangers involved in such a policy both for us and for them. Instead of agitating for war, the Jewish groups in this country should be opposing it in every possible way for they will be among the first to feel its consequences.
Tolerance is a virtue that depends upon peace and strength. History shows that it cannot survive war and devastations. A few far-sighted Jewish people realize this and stand opposed to intervention. But the majority still do not.
Their greatest danger to this country lies in their large ownership and influence in our motion pictures, our press, our radio and our government.
I am not attacking either the Jewish or the British people. Both races, I admire. But I am saying that the leaders of both the British and the Jewish races, for reasons which are as understandable from their viewpoint as they are inadvisable from ours, for reasons which are not American, wish to involve us in the war.
We cannot blame them for looking out for what they believe to be their own interests, but we also must look out for ours. We cannot allow the natural passions and prejudices of other peoples to lead our country to destruction.
The Roosevelt administration is the third powerful group which has been carrying this country toward war. Its members have used the war emergency to obtain a third presidential term for the first time in American history. They have used the war to add unlimited billions to a debt which was already the highest we have ever known. And they have just used the war to justify the restriction of congressional power, and the assumption of dictatorial procedures on the part of the president and his appointees.
The power of the Roosevelt administration depends upon the maintenance of a wartime emergency. The prestige of the Roosevelt administration depends upon the success of Great Britain to whom the president attached his political future at a time when most people thought that England and France would easily win the war. The danger of the Roosevelt administration lies in its subterfuge. While its members have promised us peace, they have led us to war heedless of the platform upon which they were elected.
In selecting these three groups as the major agitators for war, I have included only those whose support is essential to the war party. If any one of these groups--the British, the Jewish, or the administration--stops agitating for war, I believe there will be little danger of our involvement.
I do not believe that any two of them are powerful enough to carry this country to war without the support of the third. And to these three, as I have said, all other war groups are of secondary importance.
When hostilities commenced in Europe, in 1939, it was realized by these groups that the American people had no intention of entering the war. They knew it would be worse than useless to ask us for a declaration of war at that time. But they believed that this country could be entered into the war in very much the same way we were entered into the last one.
They planned: first, to prepare the United States for foreign war under the guise of American defense; second, to involve us in the war, step by step, without our realization; third, to create a series of incidents which would force us into the actual conflict. These plans were of course, to be covered and assisted by the full power of their propaganda.
Our theaters soon became filled with plays portraying the glory of war. Newsreels lost all semblance of objectivity. Newspapers and magazines began to lose advertising if they carried anti-war articles. A smear campaign was instituted against individuals who opposed intervention. The terms "fifth columnist," "traitor," "Nazi," "anti-Semitic" were thrown ceaselessly at any one who dared to suggest that it was not to the best interests of the United States to enter the war. Men lost their jobs if they were frankly anti-war. Many others dared no longer speak.
Before long, lecture halls that were open to the advocates of war were closed to speakers who opposed it. A fear campaign was inaugurated. We were told that aviation, which has held the British fleet off the continent of Europe, made America more vulnerable than ever before to invasion. Propaganda was in full swing.
There was no difficulty in obtaining billions of dollars for arms under the guise of defending America. Our people stood united on a program of defense. Congress passed appropriation after appropriation for guns and planes and battleships, with the approval of the overwhelming majority of our citizens. That a large portion of these appropriations was to be used to build arms for Europe, we did not learn until later. That was another step.
To use a specific example; in 1939, we were told that we should increase our air corps to a total of 5,000 planes. Congress passed the necessary legislation. A few months later, the administration told us that the United States should have at least 50,000 planes for our national safety. But almost as fast as fighting planes were turned out from our factories, they were sent abroad, although our own air corps was in the utmost need of new equipment; so that today, two years after the start of war, the American army has a few hundred thoroughly modern bombers and fighters--less in fact, than Germany is able to produce in a single month.
Ever since its inception, our arms program has been laid out for the purpose of carrying on the war in Europe, far more than for the purpose of building an adequate defense for America.
Now at the same time we were being prepared for a foreign war, it was necessary, as I have said, to involve us in the war. This was accomplished under that now famous phrase "steps short of war."
England and France would win if the United States would only repeal its arms embargo and sell munitions for cash, we were told. And then [illegible] began, a refrain that marked every step we took toward war for many months--"the best way to defend America and keep out of war." we were told, was "by aiding the Allies."
First, we agreed to sell arms to Europe; next, we agreed to loan arms to Europe; then we agreed to patrol the ocean for Europe; then we occupied a European island in the war zone. Now, we have reached the verge of war.
The war groups have succeeded in the first two of their three major steps into war. The greatest armament program in our history is under way.
We have become involved in the war from practically every standpoint except actual shooting. Only the creation of sufficient "incidents" yet remains; and you see the first of these already taking place, according to plan [ill.]-- a plan that was never laid before the American people for their approval.
Men and women of Iowa; only one thing holds this country from war today. That is the rising opposition of the American people. Our system of democracy and representative government is on test today as it has never been before. We are on the verge of a war in which the only victor would be chaos and prostration.
We are on the verge of a war for which we are still unprepared, and for which no one has offered a feasible plan for victory--a war which cannot be won without sending our soldiers across the ocean to force a landing on a hostile coast against armies stronger than our own.
We are on the verge of war, but it is not yet too late to stay out. It is not too late to show that no amount of money, or propaganda, or patronage can force a free and independent people into war against its will. It is not yet too late to retrieve and to maintain the independent American destiny that our forefathers established in this new world.
The entire future rests upon our shoulders. It depends upon our action, our courage, and our intelligence. If you oppose our intervention in the war, now is the time to make your voice heard.
Help us to organize these meetings; and write to your representatives in Washington. I tell you that the last stronghold of democracy and representative government in this country is in our house of representatives and our senate.
There, we can still make our will known. And if we, the American people, do that, independence and freedom will continue to live among us, and there will be no foreign war.
I think you should spend more time around people who shoot guns. I think you might find that they are not as stupid as you [think they are].
Nothing can protect you from a determined attack. Having no weapon will fail to protect you from even a casual attack. Why give up your weapons simply because they do not always work? Who ever expected perfection?
And I agree with your point #2. Having a gun makes you a threat. So the people around you will behave nicely. And given the symmetry of the relationship, you will also behave nicely because they will be [or so you can expect] armed also.
-russ
Don't piss off The Angry Economist
Even better, Fire a gun at 10,000 meters (dunno how many feet, 30,000??) and see what happens when you blow a hole in the hull and the pressure drops rather quickly...
if (!signature) { throw std::runtime_error("No sig!"); }
I know this is a bit off topic, and I can't substantiate it at all, but at one point during the news coverage yesterday, a reporter mentioned that the government will be using a "Black Hole" to capture thousands and thousands of phone conversations and will begin processing them, looking for information. Did anyone else hear/see this report? Is it an admission of Echelon?
I'm a strong believer in the silent majority. You're talking about outlets that encourage hotheads. I think a lot more people think like myself and the original poster that cool heads are in the majority and will prevail.
From hell's heart I fstab at /dev/hdc
Yeah, especially those guys that trained bin Laden, eh? You may have heard of them. They're the CIA.
And it's interesting that we find Afghanistan such a problem now. We didn't seem to feel that way when they were fighting the Soviet Union. Kipling and the Russians can tell you about barbarism in Afghanistan, it's not a new problem.
There are plenty of examples. Remember Noriega and Pinochet?
There is no excuse for what happened yesterday, none at all. No matter how oppressed you are, no matter how badly you've been hurt, killing civilians will not make you safer or hurt less. This is the very lesson we need to send to terrorists, but they pay attention to what we do, not what we say.
I fully support an informed and measured response. That probably will inevitably involve some civilians whose only crime is being too poor to move out of their country. But damn, people, we would have a lot less trouble with monsters if we didn't shortsightedly create and fund them to protect our interest of the moment.
You can buy bullets with less destructive power now (frangible bullets). If there was a market for bullets which didn't go through the walls of an airplane, you can bet somebody would devise them. Right now, they don't exist because nobody would waste their money buying them.
-russ
Don't piss off The Angry Economist
I thought the moment I heard that phrase that it was stupid. That kind of thinking would lead you to conclude that Dr. Mudd shot Abraham Lincoln.
--
E_NOSIG
Good point.
Maybe they were just getting nervous. Sort of like cramming before the big exam.
The surprise isn't how often we make bad choices; the surprise is how seldom they defeat us.
Giuliani is an amazing mayor. Whether or not you agree with everything he does is not the issue. The point is that he is decisive, no-nonsense and gets things done. He is not a PR person, he is a decision maker. It is a shame that his term is ending soon (term limits), but but I know he will move up the political ladder and hopefully will become active in federal government where someone with passion and talent like his is sorely needed.
I'm a citizen of both the US and Canada, and I draw a different conclusion here. If you asked around the world today and said "what country thinks they are the supreme country and their president is the most powerful man in the world", most people would point to the US. If you asked "which country treats the population of the rest of the world like mongrel scum and commits horrendous atrocities on those people", many people would point to the US.
Maybe this will finally wake the people of the US up to the fact that even the most friendly neighbors (Canada and Mexico) are often pissed off at the way the US treats the rest of the world. "The American Way" is not the only way, and isn't the same as "the right way".
Even the fact that you suggest that somehow the US might have the option of enforcing it's views on which religions are "A-OK" and which are "unamerican" shows the kind of arrogance the rest of the world can't stand.
The destruction of the WTC and the Pentagon were horrible tragedies, but they were the direct result of the US pushing the rest of the world around with its monetary and military might.
Instead of asking "who can we kill to avenge this?", maybe you should ask "why would someone hate us enough to do this?"
Bye bye Karma, but this rant was necessary.
My initial response to how they took over the planes did not involve weapons. A highly trained in-duh-vidual could be far more dangerous than a freak with a gun. 3-4 trained assains would not need weapons to kill a few people, then hold someone as a hostage threatening to kill them as well.
How the HELL are we gonna ensure THIS cannot happen on any domestic flight?
I am much in support of the cockpit/cargo isolation idea.
Krispy Cream is people
this page
http://www.google.com/search?q=cache:UMjaQkVab38:
goes to this page
"http://www.google.com/search?q=cache:jROXIfaHOGQ
and contain these menus.
http://www.google.com/search?q=cache:4sEeLq-RWiU:
http://www.google.com/search?q=cache:FmV2KzkX_1E:
Novel theory: Modern Man evolved from psychopath
Do you really think that you can discredit Terrorist Islam?
The Romans couldn't discredit Christianity, even when they used their followers as streetlamps and lion food.
We can't even discredit Scientology!
I don't think that this will work.
--The basis of all love is respect
Jerry Pournelle posted this tonight on one of the SFF Net newsgroups; I
have no reason to think it isn't authentic.
Dear Jerry,
Following is a message which my one of my best friends passed along with
permission to distribute to those who might be interested. It fills in the
details that I missed in my original conversation with him and attempted to
relate to you.
Tom has given me permission to distribute the message - please feel free to
post it if you deem it appropriate.
Sincerely,
Art Russell
Major, US Army (Retired)
Message Follows:
Today was a tragedy for all of America and to my family, a very personal
one. Lynn and my Niece Liz's husband, Jeremy Glick was on United flight 93
this morning. When the Hijackers took control of flight 93. Jeremy called
my niece who in-turn conferenced him to 911. Jeremy relayed to the police
what was happening as the hijacking unfolded. As our niece Liz listened,
Jeremy told the police there were three Arab terrorists with knives and a
large red box that they claimed contained a bomb. Jeremy tracked the second
by second details and relayed them to the police by phone. After several
minutes of describing the scene, Jeremy and several other passengers
decided there was nothing to lose by rushing the hijackers. Although United
Flight 93 crashed outside of Pittsburgh, with the loss of all souls. Jeremy
and the other patriotic heroes saved the lives of many people on the ground
that would have died if the Arab terrorists had been able to complete their
heinous mission.
Please offer your prayers for all of those who perished or were injured in
this tragic of all days and to our niece Liz Glick and her 2-month-old
child, Emerson, who are left without their loving Husband and Father. May
we remember Jeremy and the other brave souls as heroes, soldiers and
Americans' on United flight 93 whom so gallantry gave their lives to save
many others.
Lynn, our four adult children and I are headed to New York to be with our
family during this time of great sadness
All of my best,
Tom
Why haven't any of the big news agencies reported that Bin Laden was recently appointed the Taliban military commandre in chief?
6 03 7
http://www.vny.com/cf/news/upidetail.cfm?QID=21
Would you be willing to give up some of the liberties we have in this country in order for the government to crack down on terrorism, or not?
The results may surprise you. Remember the (FDR?)quote -- "Those who give up a liberty for convenience deserve neither"? (not accurate, but too tired to look it up)
actually, I have to disagree. Their coverage wasn't that much better, although you were atleast able to sometimes get a page. the BBC had by far the best coverage... my office was even streaming live coverage from them through Real Media Player from 9:00 until 10:30.
I agree with the Akamai comment tho.
The reason for cutting the ads was the fact it almost doubled our bandwidth. Better that people see the site and use the numbers later to ellicit ads than to have the site down.
ACK
In the aftermath of these attacks, a lot of scary things are happening. People are suggesting that we nuke the entire middle-east, or at least go violently destroy anyone even suspected of any involvement. The FBI wants all ISPs to install Carnivore. The govenment wants more illegal wiretapping.
9 5 which calls for "justice, not revenge".
If any of these are as scary to you as they are to me, I encourage you to sign the petition at http://www.thepetitionsite.com/takeaction/2246224
Ben Franklin said: "Those who would sacrifice essential liberty for temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety."
The text of the petition is copied below:
====
In the aftermath of the ruthless attack on the World Trade Center and Pentagon, we implore the leaders of the United States to ensure that justice be served by protecting the innocent citizens of all nations.
We demand that the President maintain the civil liberties of all U.S. residents, protect the human rights of all people at home and abroad, and guarantee that this attempted attack on the principles and freedoms of the United States will not succeed.
We plead for a thorough investigation of the terrorist events before any retaliation.
We call for PEACE and JUSTICE, not revenge.
"Those who would sacrifice essential liberty for temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety."
Hi there. I'm sure many peple won't read this because it was posted so late in this discussion, but I thought you might like a quick word from some of the ER's I've been in today down here. (Columbia, NYU, and Vincent's). Tragically, everyone is really just standing around waiting for live people to come in, and there seems to be a general lack of this. Every now and then a fire fighter comes in, but is generally stable at this stage - likely incidental damage.
Yesterday, one of the firemen was brought in - in his mid fourties, I would suppose. He had a brother and 3 sons who were all firefighters; one of the latter was not accounted for all day yesterday. He himself had gotten caught in the first collapse, had gotten out and went in the second building and was then caught in that collapse and received some blows of debris into his back, for which he was being treated. It's that kind of bravery from the very salt of the earth which makes me so proud to be an American. God bless to all.
K
Wasn't it possible to rescue people from the rooves of the burning WTO buildings using helicopters?
Was UA flight 93 shot down over Somerset County PA? (Even if the F16s were not air bourn at the time, what about a SAM?) Would the USAF admit doing it if they did? (This Economist article suggests doing so would have been illegal.)
Sound like our terriorists, hunh? What happens if we actually *made* those terrorists with our own actions? What do we have to say for ourselves?
If the above happened, then we screwed up, big time. And we must learn from this.
I say now is not the time for comdemnation, but a time for reflection. Let us not judge those less we walk in their shoes and drink from their cup. Let us not restrict the freedoms of others less we loose our democracy. Let us follow the doctrine of the second testiment, the god of compassion.
I am a Catholic, and I believe in compassion. That is why I feel we need to destroy those responsible.
I do not ask for vengeance; that's not my call. I ask for whatever action is necessary to prevent this from happening again. Thus we show compassion for the next round of terrorism victims. If you can come up with a more effective way than rendering those responsible incapable of repeating their crimes, I ask you to speak up now.
It's like police. You can sit there, and explain how the Man has beaten you down, how the government has made you into the menace you are. The cop doesn't care, because he does care about the civilians he is protecting. And whatever you say, all he wants is for you to drop the gun. Now.
To some people, this is about vengeance and judgement. To me, this is about prevention. Protecting our civilians is what our military is for. To say that we shouldn't counter is to say that we should never have responded to Japan back in the forties, it is to say that we should let these people walk all over us.
People will die. Innocent people will die. I will gladly kill a hundred to save thousands. That is Christian calculus.
--The basis of all love is respect
$765K thus far. I kicked in my $50. I bet /.ers and others could get it up to a million bux by the end of today, at this rate!
sulli
RTFJ.
Right! Then we can go bomb Iraq....
OBL is already wanted for conspiracy in other events, but this amount of international ire is large enough to spread to more than one target.
I just got this e-mail from a friend and I thought it was good to share (note: I am not a Canadian):
:)
A TRIBUTE TO THE UNITED STATES
This, from a Canadian newspaper, is worth sharing.
America: The Good Neighbor.
Widespread but only partial news coverage was given
recently to a remarkable editorial broadcast from
Toronto by Gordon Sinclair, a Canadian television
commentator. What follows is the full text of his
trenchant remarks as printed in the Congressional Record:
"This Canadian thinks it is time to speak up for the
Americans as the most generous and possibly the least
appreciated people on all the earth.
Germany, Japan and, to a lesser extent, Britain and
Italy were lifted out of the debris of war by the
Americans who poured in billions of dollars and
forgave other billions in debts. None of these
countries is today paying even the interest on its
remaining debts to the United States.
When France was in danger of collapsing in 1956,
it was the Americans who propped it up, and their
reward was to be insulted and swindled on the streets
of Paris. I was there. I saw it.
When earthquakes hit distant cities, it is the
United States that hurries in to help. This spring, 59
American communities were flattened by tornadoes.
Nobody helped.
The Marshall Plan and the Truman Policy pumped
billions of dollars! into discouraged countries. Now
newspapers in those countries are writing about the
decadent, warmongering Americans.
I'd like to see just one of those countries that
is gloating over the erosion of the United States
dollar build its own airplane. Does any other country
in the world have a plane to equal the Boeing Jumbo
Jet, the Lockheed Tri-Star, or the Douglas DC10?
If so, why don't they fly them? Why do all the
International lines except Russia fly American Planes?
Why does no other land on earth even consider putting
a man or woman on the moon? You talk about Japanese
technocracy, and you get radios. You talk about German
technocracy, and you get automobiles.
You talk about American technocracy, and you find
men on the moon -! not once, but several times
and safely home again.
You talk about scandals, and the Americans put theirs
right in the store window for everybody to look at.
Even their draft-dodgers are not pursued and hounded.
They are here on our streets, and most of them, unless
they are breaking Canadian laws, are getting American
dollars from ma and pa at home to spend here.
When the railways of France, Germany and India
were breaking down through age, it was the Americans
who rebuilt them. When the Pennsylvania Railroad and
the New York Central went broke, nobody loaned them an
old caboose. Both are still broke.
I can name you 5000 times when the Americans raced
to the help of other people in trouble. Can you name
me even one time when someone else raced to the
Americans in trouble? I don't think there was outside
help even during the San Francisco earthquake.
Our neighbors have faced it alone, and I'm one
Canadian who is damned tired of hearing them get
kicked around. They will come out of this thing with
their flag high. And when they do, they are entitled
to thumb their nose at the lands that are gloating
over their present troubles. I hope Canada is not one of
those."
Stand proud, America!
This is one of the best editorials that I have ever
read regarding the United States. It is nice that
one man realizes it. I only wish that the rest of the
world would realize it. We are always blamed for
everything and never even get a thank you for the
things we do.
I would hope that each of you would send this to
as many people as you can and emphasize that they
should send it to as many of their friends until this
letter is sent to every person on the web. I am just a
single American that has read this.
I SURE HOPE THAT A LOT MORE READ IT SOON.
Another e-mail with a message (cartoon) to the attacker(s).
Ant(Dude) @ Quality Foraged Links (AQFL.net) & The Ant Farm (antfarm.ma.cx / antfarm.home.dhs.org).
Please note that the Amazon donation is capped at $50 (although I presume you could donate more than once). Also, I didn't see any mention of the donation being tax-deductible. Crass, I know, but for some people it's important.
The Paypal donation link is unlimited, and Yahoo had a link to a Red Cross donation as well. Sorry, I don't have the link.
You may also donation directly at http://www.redcross.org although their site seems to be getting pretty slammed.
Sure to be controversial, but Micheal Moore has a very interesting message about the attacks. He mentions that the person whose name has been mentioned the most in connection to these attacks, Osama bin Laden was trained by the CIA.
Laid off by a dot-com? There's a place for you in the military. All the services are recruiting actively right now. And they need smart people.
Terrorists are usually small cells of people, very small and pesky targets. They are usually not nations or governments in charge of large land masses.
A nuclear weapon is good for destroying large land masses, such as cities. Direct hits can also destroy hard targets such as bunkers, but will also "erase" the local area. This is a sure way to piss off all the locals. As far as I am concerned, a nuke is a terrorist attack, as it is anti-civilian rather than anti-military.
If you dropped a nuke on the terrorists, you would make the surrounding countries mad at you, both the governments themselves and the individual civilians. You would start an old-fashioned, military-to-military war, and you would create dozens of terrorist cells for every one you destroyed.
The weapons you need for this war are the surgical ones. This would be assassins, commandos, SEALs, that sort of thing. The biggest weapon I would imagine would be an F-119 with laser guided bombs.
Sure, you're going to piss off the locals by persuing our enemies on their soverignty. But not as much as if you kill 50,000 of their civilians. See what that did to us!
--The basis of all love is respect
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More of that innovative MS technology at work.
"that's not encryption - it's a new perl script that I'm working on..." - from some Matrix parody
Email your legislators as well. That's what I plan to do. You've got a better chance of audience with them, and they're the ones who actually draft the laws.
Here are three other good "letters" I've found. I like yours as well.
If you're worried about encroachments on your freedom, you should be voting Constitution or Libertarian.
Constitutionally Correct
My "Cockpit/Cargo Isolation" would involve 2 doors to the airplane, and no possibility of travelling from the back to the cockpit... under the threat of killing passengers or not.
Yes they could still force the plane to land by being on a cell phone to the air traffic controllers or something like that, but they would have no hope of compromising the control of the aircraft.
Krispy Cream is people
Sure thing pal. Your path is one that could be followed. It'll turn into a global Vietnam for us probably, except that the death and destruction will be on our own soil instead of on the other side of the globe. I hope you're first in line to join the Army too if you want to kick these people's asses so bad. Let's see you put your life on the line over in the middle east.
Then there's the fact that if we go around randomly turning cities into rubble to get at a few terrorists we'll end up creating a lot more than we kill. People with nothing left to lose are hard to stop. Eventually they'll probably kill you or someone you care about. They'll probably kill me and others who don't want to take that route too, but in the end, we're all US citizens and in a war, that's all that matters.
It's not enough to bash in heads, you've got to bash in minds. - Captain Hammer
Flight training school: 4 * $3500 = $14000
Cardboard cutters: 8 * $5 = $40
One-way plane tickets: 8 * 150 = $1200
You forgot:
A dozen suicidal terrorists: priceless.
"In order to have the desired effect the hostile nation must feel the pain deeply"
Great, for anybody who wishes to understand the terrorist mindset, look no further.
http://rareformnewmedia.com/
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/binl aden/interviews/al-fagih.html#alqaeda
Very interesting interview about someone familiar with Bin Laden and his followers.
At the very bottom of the page, it asks "Secondly, does the average American worker in an office in New York or Washington have reason to fear?"
Scary stuff! 2 years ago someone feared for the exact 2 cities that were hit!
I agree fully. I was, and still am, for a national missile shield, but that is definitely a 'nice to have' in this time of need-to-have. And right now, the USA, and the world, need to have retribution for all those who thought that even threatening terrorist action against the USA was a good plan of attack.
I don't really care what the differences between you and I are at this point, it's just time to stand up together and tell the little boys of the world crying: "Wolf!" that it's time to stop. And the only message that's going to make sense at this point, is a message of force: swift and devestating. God bless you brother (or sister - whichever it is ;) ).
When so many news sites were going down yesterday we set up an aggregated news feed on the US attacks at our site. It's the top item on the main page.
PLEASE DONATE BLOOD! There is a continent-wide blood drive on. New York hospitals are critically low on blood supplies and many of the wounded are being transported to Canadian hospitals Toronto, Montreal and Ottawa to make space for the expected flood of critical patients in New York.
You can contact the US Red Cross or Canadian Blood Services to set up an appointment.
Has anyone thought of the possible connection to the mysterious crash of Egyptian Air 990 in Nov of 1999? That plane was also a 767. No evidence of mechanical failure was found. The US investigators believed that the copilot may have drove the plane into the Atlantic in an act of suicide, but the Egyptians disagreed. Could there be any connection?
Please. Civillians have been targets in every significant conflict in history. This, like most other pitched conflicts, has very little to do with right or wrong but more to do with what side you are on.
If you are a supporter of Islamic fundamentalist regimes and militias, I don't care if you spend your days feeding the poor and teaching children to read - you have thrown your lot in with those who are opposed to my values and the safety of my family and you are a suitable target for whatever insideous weapon we should chose to toss at you.
Islamic fundamentalists say:
Greater love has no man than this, that he lay down his life to slay his enemies.
Christ said this:
"Greater love has no man than this, that he lay down his life for his friends."
You are naive to think anything less than wiping terrorists out completely will solve this problem.
Unfortunately, the assumption that killing anyone, including terrorists, is the true naivety. Terrorism is the symptom. The disease is the desperation that much of the world endures while being steamrolled under our economic imperialism (what you call 'economic expansion'). The cure, is to reach out and re-build our reputation as protectors of liberty rather than protectors of our own god-given right to gorge ourselves on junk food while the rest of the world starves.
How nice that all the trolls have come out to play...
Civillians have been targets in every significant conflict in history. This, like most other pitched conflicts, has very little to do with right or wrong but more to do with what side you are on.
And this justifies attacks on civilian targets how?
If you are a supporter of Islamic fundamentalist regimes and militias, I don't care if you spend your days feeding the poor and teaching children to read - you have thrown your lot in with those who are opposed to my values and the safety of my family and you are a suitable target for whatever insideous weapon we should chose to toss at you.
Exactly what values would those be then?
If you stop and consider the situation for a moment, there is very little difference between the actions you are suggesting, and the actions of the terrorists who attacked the WTC, which I believe was my point in the first place...
*** Where are we going? And what's with this handbasket?
But many third-world countries are now struggling under american-imposed economic "measures" that only insures that the country's assets are bought at bargain-basement firesale prices by american croporations who then move on to milk those countries' wealth.
Because the french know very well that if they let the yankees run them, it will drive them into abject submission. They haven't forgotten Roosevelt's AMGOT plans of 10 years earlier, where France was to be stripped of her industrial capability, in order to render her dependant on american industry for it's staples.
Who cares about trailer parks?
The marshall plan was repaid many times when whole industries were greatly harmed by american protectionism.
The US aircraft industry was able to offer cheaper planes because it was heavily subsidized by general Curtiss Lemay's warmongering warplane buildup. And american salesmen are very good at bribing officials, too.
And how were the americans able to go to the moon? By using slave labour plucked from Germany's war industry. The americans by themselves would never be able to do that technological prowess, they are unable to school enough good engineers, but instead, they import their scientists from abroad. Young americans are only interested with money, so instead of becoming engineers and scientists, they become lawyers.
I wonder what weed that guy has been smoking, because it seems to be mightily good!
The Pennsylvania Railroad and the New-York Central railroad have been dead for 34 years; they have been merged into the Penn Centrail railroad, whose subsequent bankrupcy (the biggest bankrupcy ever in the whole universe) rocked the industrial establishment to it's foundation. All thanks to the automobile industry who, at great public expense, had hammered at a fully paid for transportation infrastructure, and replacing it with one that killed more people than all the wars ever did since the birth of mankind.
Here is a canadian with a pretty browned-up tongue!!!
Has a passenger ever landed a heavy jet? I don't ever remember hearing about this.
In these cases, would the pilot incapacitation have been prevented with isolation?
All airlines have at least one peson other than the primary pilot in the cockpit who is capeable of landing the plane. Many planes have 2 other landing capeable pilots.
Krispy Cream is people
I lived in the US for several years, my wife and many of my best friends are American. Here, for the very small amount it's worth, is my judgement:
The American people are generally compassionate, generous and decent. They are however, deluded into thinking that
(a) they live in a democracy
(b) they have a vague idea what's going on
(c) american actions abroad are for humanitarian reasons
"When was the last time your country was visited by nameless...."
If you lived in Kosovo, the answer was last year.
If you lived in Cambodia, 20 years ago.
If you lived in Palestine, last week (via Israel, which is entirely supported by US). They didn't need to hijack any more planes, because the bombers were already paid for by American taxpayers.
America itself was hijacked years ago by narrow corporate interests. It is often in the interests of these corporations to bomb other countries, or to prevent the development of democracy in these places. Ordinary Americans are as much of a victim of this as anybody else.
The foreign aid you talk of is paid from American taxpayers to American corporations. It, along with defense spending, is a form of corporate welfare. Meanwhile single mothers are told to be self-reliant, and 70% of the country has no health insurance. You're all working far more hours than you were a couple of decades ago, and your wives have to go to work as well now. The gap between rich and poor has reached levels that surpass those in Victorian london.
I know you think corporations are your friends, but then again you're submitted to roughly 30,000 3 minute segments of pure corporate propoganda per year. These ads are sandwiched between programs created by, and largely for the benefit of, large corporations. Pravda never had the resources of Madison avenue.
You're all getting fucked, and you don't realise it. The thing that really brought it home to me was buying a 1968 Buick LeSabre. At the time of manafacture, this was considered an average american family car. When I compared this car to one made in 1998 the difference in quality was
striking, even given the huge advances in computer aided design, manafacturing techniques, material science, the older car was of far superior build quality. The older car required roughly 3 times as much steel, and the extraction and processing of steel has become considerably more efficient over the last 30 years.
So, the old car required maybe 12 times as much manual labour, and 3 times as much steel to build than the newer car.
Average wage in USA - 1968: $5571 1998: $28861
Base price of Buick LeSabre - 1968: $3600 1998: $22000
So, in 1968 at an average wage it would have taken 7 months, 3 weeks worth of salary to pay for a new Buick LeSabre. In 1998 it would take 9 months. However, somehow you think you're better off now than you were then. This is largely because the media tells you that you are. Typically they point at rising share prices to prove it. Maybe the 10% of the population that own 90% of the shares are better off, but the rest of you are getting fucked.
The picture presented about the world outside America is even more grossly distorted to the one presented inside. There's nothing wrong with Americans, but there's definitely something wrong with America.
http://rareformnewmedia.com/
No, the really skilled terrorists are the ones trained by the CIA to fight the Soviets. Osama Bin Laden is one of them. Maybe arming Moslem fanatics with the best weaponry and teaching them advanced espionage techniques to avoid detection by superpowers wasn't a good idea.
We made him, now it's time to recall him.
What's the difference? It seems to me it's entirely a matter of semantics. In the past (and largely in the present) whoever won the war got to call the other side "criminal". The point is to get away from that and create some sense of fairness in international justice.
It is tempting, if the only tool you have is a hammer, to treat everything as if it were a nail. - Abraham Maslow
Build in some means of fire suppression that can control a fire involving at least one or two entire floors of the building, and make that system able to survive a major aircraft impact.
.. I'll let the engineers take it from here ..
The basic structure probably would have survived more or less intact, thanks to the core's penetrable structure, if it hadn't been for the fire that involved at least one entire floor below each impact point, presumably from pooled fuel. The heat from the fire was what caused the collapse of the upper sections of the building, and when the framework failed and the upper sections fell 20-30 feet, that overloaded the remaining parts of each tower and caused the rest of the tower to collapse.
Go back and look at the footage -- you can see this yourself. The collapse was essentially straight down, with scattered outfall of debris -- vertical enough to shear off the fascia panels, which you can see standing about 40 stories high for several seconds after the north tower collapses. If the crash had caused the structural failure, the collapse would have been asymmetrical and the building would have toppled sideways. Thus, this was essentially fire damage and thermal weakening of the steel.
How to make this system survive an impact? Best suggestion I can make is an armored standpipe system, possibly near the corners so at least some of the standpipes survive, with heat activated discharge nozzles that flood the floor if it gets hot enough to threaten the structure itself. May not put out the fire, but could at least cool the framework to where it remains intact
73 de N5VB (ex-KD5BIV) AR SK
Buy a handheld aviation GPS. $1000 for a nice one that will happily tell you exactly where to point the plane and let you know if you're off course to teh left or right.
I shouldn't laugh at how easy this is, but you're right. Reading your comment made me picture a terrorist pilot with a talking GPS calmly giving computerized directions totally unaware of the horror it's facilitating.
Kinda makes you look forward to AI so that the GPS can refuse to give directions. "You want to land this plane where?!"
Some people have a way with words, and some people, um, thingy.
Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that.
~ Rev. Martin Luther King Jr.
The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing.
The terrorists who bombed the WTC think that their "buildings were burned" by the USA (or by USA's support of Israel). It does not matter whether this is true of not: they feel it exactly the same as the American Colonists did. Trying to differentiate them is not that easy.
I dunno about that. Listening to O&A yesterday afternoon and the Stern show this morning, just about every caller was calling for blood. Those that didn't were ridiculed and not allowed to explain their side of it.
I listened to Stern this morning on my way to a job (I'm in Canada, BTW) -- now I know that Howard Stern is actually quite intelligent; he knows how to work the crowd and how to stay on the air this long. A stupid man would not have the success he is having.
But hearing him call for nukes and wiping out all Muslims... that sent chills down my spine. Not so much because he said it but because I know there are countless morons who believe he is right and help "spread his word" without thinking. While he may have been doing it for ratings and calls, there are too many people who'd take him seriously.
Listen up, people: the Muslims are not to blame. Nor the Iraqi's, nor the Afghanistans. This is not an attack by a race or religion: this is an attack by a bunch of crazed psychopaths and extremists, and indirectly by the governments who support and/or harbour them. The Muslims are scared shitless and it's disgusting that even here in Canada, death threats have been called in to Mosques and Muslim high schools. I've heard that tens of thousands of callers are reporting their mid-eastern neighbours as suspects because they're different.
Make no mistake: the people terrorizing the Muslim and other middle-eastern population are no better than the shit-eating scum who are terrorizing the United States.
The solution is not to wipe Afghanistan off the earth, and it certainly is not a nuclear solution. Many people living in Afghanistan cannot afford to move or evacuate, and I am uncertain as to whether the Afganistan goverment can afford to evacuate them. Regardless, the majority of Afghans are innocent civilians and retailiating against them is barbaric and useless. Bombing innocent people is wrong no matter where they are, and a nation as wealthy and powerful as the United States should know that!
What's the solution? I don't know. I would far prefer surgical strike(s) and occupation of the regions which are known to support these extremists. Cut them off at the source, but minimize the civilian casualties. That is honourable. That is noble. That is a civilized response. Not "Nuke the sand niggers off the face of the planet" as I have heard and read.
Another solution (additional solution) would be to put a eight or even nine digit USD price tag on known terrorist's heads. Obviously this idea needs more fleshing out but I wonder how loyal their followers would be?
Get it straight: Not all white people are card-carrying members of Aryan Nation or the KKK. Not all Americans are stupid white trash who can't see the world beyond their borders. Not all Muslims are terrorists and extremists. How would you like to be terrorized because of how you look or where you're from?
-- tzanger, a 25-year-old white father in Canada, totally disgusted by the racism and knee-jerk reactions going on around him.
There is a thing called a Glaser Safety Slug. It's basically a pistol bullet loaded with shot suspended in oil. Devastating against flesh, but it won't penetrate even wood: It's market is for people who want a gun for home defense, but don't want to risk having the bullet go through the wall and hit a neighbor
"Research is what I am doing when I don't know what I am doing." -- Wernher von Braun
I went on a trip to Washington, DC this past January. We passed through our fair share of metal detectors, in airports and federal buildings we toured in Washington. There's one thing I noticed about all of them: they never check your wallet. I have a wallet with metal clips that would certainly set off the detector. You just put it in the tray, walk through, and pick it up on your way out. They don't even look at it. I commented at the time (to my friends, not to the guards--I didn't want them to get any ideas) that a small knife or a switch blade could easily fit inside a wallet. Perhaps I should have risked an interrogation and told the guards.
American domestic flights are notorious around the world for having lax security. Airlines are more concerned about getting passengers in and out than they are about terrorism. This is a trade-off we made because we felt that we were immune. Obviously, this is going to have to change.
If you listen to self-defense instructors, a gun is only worth-while if you are willing to use it. Most people will hesitate, lose the gun and have it used on them.
Add to that, the fact that most people in a high stress situation couldn't hit the broadside of a barn from 2 feet away and I would be willing to lay good money that a majority of the casualities would result from friendly fire. I'd be more afraid that the Grannie behind me is going to put a bullet in my gut as she draws her weapon than Mr. IRA is going to accidentially shot me while targeting the officer on the other side of the plane.
Oh, and I won't even go into how hard it is to judge shoot/no-shoot situations. My friend who was entering law enforcement said the simulator was a bitch. Or the problems if someone has too much to drink or experiences a little in-flight rage.
How about the only thing you get to bring on board the plane is bit of string. It's the only thing I'd trust any fellow passengers with and that's with deep reservations.
I don't want knowledge. I want certainty. - Law, David Bowie
As unfortunate as it is, people do not feel guilt until they appreciate the immediacy of the consequences of their actions.
Remember that when someone you love is killed in retaliation for our retaliation. Yesterday's attack was not the first stone to be thrown. It was just another step in the cycle that we will perpetuate. We won't be able to kill all the terrorists with our retaliation. In fact, even if we do manage to get a lot of them, they'll probably become martyrs and more will take their place. What it comes down to is that we're no better than they are when our security is threatened. We'll lash out and kill "innocents" as well. We've done it before and we'll do it again. The innocents we kill over there will be guilty of the same thing as the people killed yesterday. They were citizens of a country at war.
It's not enough to bash in heads, you've got to bash in minds. - Captain Hammer
It's good to report leads to the authorities, but don't obsess over things like this.
-- @rjamestaylor on Ello
No. The whole point is this: if you shoot the terrorist in the head, your bullet will continue through his head and through the wall of the jet. This will immediately cause a large hole to be torn in the airplane, and it will crash. It doesn't matter how smart you are about your weapon, or how good a shot you are.
There are no trails. There are no trees out here.
I think this is a very immature attitude. Would you nuke Michigan just because Timothy McVeigh came from there? Do you naively assume that every Afghani is evil just because there are terrorists living in that nation?
Only when we act decisively, will the violence decrease and eventually end.
You're assuming we have the knowledge and capability of killing or at least cowing everyone who has the desire and ability to strike at us. You're also assuming that when we commit such an act that it won't fuel hatred in even more people. It gets back to the idea of the only way to get rid of a foe is to kill him and everyone who cares about him, and everyone who cares about them, etc. We talking global genocide here, or what?
It's not enough to bash in heads, you've got to bash in minds. - Captain Hammer
Okay, basically what it boils down to is this, those who are responsible should be dealt with. If Bin Laden was acting on his own in a midwest city, fine, go arrest his ass and put him in prison.
If it was Bin Laden acting out of a foriegn nation without their support (basically they let him be there but weren't actually funding him, helping him plan this, etc), then we should simply ask that government to hand him over. If they refuse, to do that (or at the very least hand him over to an international court), skip to the next paragraph.
If it was Bin Laden being sponsored by a foreign government, then that government has committed an act of undeclared war and we should deal with them as such. Historically speaking that means bomb them til they surrender, then go in and reconstruct their government as we see fit (see Japan and Germany for reference material). Note: focus of attack should be squarely on government and military. After we have torn them down, and this is the most important part, we should fund reconstruction of the country (buying good will and perhaps a future stable ally ).
I make a point of mentioning a reconstruction effort because WW2 was in large part created by not doing that with Germany during WW1 (IMHO). They were in bad financial shape which is what allowed a dictator like Hitler to come to power. By building them up financially (perhaps leaving it even better than we started), we burn out one more holes for terrorists to hide in.
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Wow. Yeah, that's it exactly.
Every year during my review, I just pray the words "slashdot.org" aren't mentioned.
Only excerpts (I have no interest in reading more) - the unbelievers are not people and are to be converted, by the 'sword' if necessary.
It's pretty easy to find those kinds of genocidal passages in the bible as well. Especially if you quote with a purpose.
But then again, the Christians haven't crashed into any towers or exploded car bombs in busy streets lately of which I am aware
What about the christian Timothy McVeigh? Or the catholics and protestants in Northern Ireland?
And of course, it is far from clear that this was done by moslems acting on religious grounds in the first place.
I'm pretty old and I've come to the conclusion that evil is amazingly evenly distributed among different religions, political views and ethnic groups. I used to think not, but I've learned.
This reminds me of one of my profs. He's a conspiricy theorist because "it makes life more fun." Dude... didn't you know? The plane that hit the pentagon was flown by Jimmy Hoffa and Elvis!
Yeesh... some people...
Killfile(TGK)
No trees were killed in the creation of this post. However, many electrons were inconvenienced.
There's just about no place on Earth where flaming wreckage would do more damage than a plane flying into the WTC...
Nicotine free Amish .sig.
I bought a GPS a couple of months ago, even the $300C model I have would be adaquate to navigate a plane if you had someone capable of using the planes controls. Even if all the electronic navigation aids on the aircraft were non-functional a small handheld GPS unit would be adaquate. (Even with selective availability it would get you within 100meters in pitchblack, never mind this was done after sunrise.
I would like to add that the walls of the new towers should be covered with the names of the victims of this atrocity.
Yes, Lindbergh supported the Nazis.
But he only did so because he didn't take the time to understand them. He saw only a government intent on improving their nation through efficiency and nationalism.
He later came to acknowledge how wrong he was and regreted his words. But by that time it was too late, his reputation had been destroyed.
My point was not ad hominem. But I think right now Americans must go into the coming weeks with an open mind because it effects our long term future.
Not all bullets are made of solid lead.
-russ
Don't piss off The Angry Economist
There's a problem with your theory. Crime went down in those states which passed concealed carry laws. But I don't suppose that facts will convince you.
-russ
Don't piss off The Angry Economist
The idea that a gun makes you invulnerable to even casual attack is simply wrong.
You are right, of course. Didn't you read what I wrote? I said that no weapon will make you vulnerable to even a casual attack. I didn't say that having a weapon would make you invulnerable to a casual attack. The two are not logically equivalent. So, it's safe for me to say that, based on a sample size of one, all gun control advocates are illogical.
-russ
Don't piss off The Angry Economist
I seem to remember hearing that the WTC towers were constructed with large amounts of asbestos. (Apparently the PA was able to circumvent environment restrictions for this project).
There has certainly been some engineering work done- "ASB abate" on the towers over the last few years.
Does anyone have the details? Is there a severe asbestos risk in the area? Is the smoke and dust highly carcinogenic?
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More blood will be shed, no matter what we do. If we act, we may kill dozens. If we do not, others will kill thousands. Christians cannot stand by and watch evil occur. If the only way to stop a great harm is by causing a small harm, then harm we must.
Christianity has never been entirely pacifist. The last days of Christ appear that way, but that was because Jesus knew that he was the one who had to die. When a Roman soldier asked Christ what he needed to do to enter the kingdom of Heaven, Jesus said nothing about leaving the army. He told the soldier to be honest and fair in his dealings.
If it is Christian to abhor the use of military force, why does nobody speak out against good Christian nations holding military forces?
All this being said, we must be very careful in our use. If we strike back in vengeance, we are likely to get full of ourselves, kill a lot more than the target, and both defy the will of God and create more enemies to strike back.
If you know a way to stop this threat without the use of deadly force, please let us know. If you don't, ask yourself whether the Christian thing to do is to let them strike again.
As Christians, we must forgive our attackers. As Christians, out of love for our neighbors, we must make sure this does not happen again.
--The basis of all love is respect
Not all plane parts can withstand fire from rubber bullets. Are you honestly suggesting that the solution would be to allow everyone to bring whatever they like on a plane? At least with our current system there is some way that some portion of suicide attacks will be stopped. Your solution would mean that a suicide attacker could destroy any plane at any time, and the only barrier of entry would be the purchase of a shotgun.
I can believe I took the time to respond to this. Jesus.
There are no trails. There are no trees out here.
It would be interesting to see what happened to crime in a European state which allowed concealed carry. Of course, Australia and Canada are running the reverse experiment, and so far, their crime has gone up.
-russ
Don't piss off The Angry Economist