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Russia Declassifies "Stealth" Warship
krez writes "Today's RFE/RL Newsline states The Russian Navy has declassified Project 20380, a warship designed with stealth technology. The ship has a range of 4000km, clips along at 30 knots (55 km/h). The ship has both offensive and defensive roles, and comes armed with the supersonic Yakhont first strike missiles, and the Medvedka 400mm anti-submarine missiles. This is a big step in Russia's attempt to re-establish itself as a world naval super-power, after a decade of budget cuts." Technical details are very very scant on here - if you know more, please post below.
... cos the fucking thing's invisible.
We cannot afford a stealth warship gap!
I'm not supposed to tell anyone about this, but I heard that it runs Linux.
All the stealth technology in the world won't save you when Boris is smashing bottles over live ordnance.
An FP is a terrible thing to waste.
The point of this ship must be that it doesn't show up on radar-but does sonar still work on it, or did the Russians manage to quiet the noise of the ship enough? If they didn't, then they're idiots. Even if this did happen, the ship is still dumb. Unless the ship can somehow cloak itself (impossible) satellites will be able to pick it up. The ship won't be able to move fast enough to avoid detection by satellites, rendering the ship's main function useless.
Colin Winters
I remember seeing footage and video of the Sea Shadow stealth ship. I'd be intersted in seeing photos of this one; does it look as wedgy as our own stealth ships do? Or does it look similar to "regular" naval vessels with some minor reshaping that ends up having a major effect on the radar cross-section?
i am a soviet space shuttle
More broken links - trying to find out about missiles gets you redirected to the homepage.
Hemos - click on the links to see if they work first.
I'd assume that Russia's intent with this craft is not to launch a war against the U.S., but to give them the ability to approach other radar-equipped ships at sea without raising the alarm, with the side benefit of being impervious to radar-guided weaponry. Very useful for drug interdiction, coastal patrol, and generally dealing with seafaring baddies who don't have minute-by-minute satellite imagery at their disposal. I think that includes 95% of the world (and most of the U.S. fleet as well.)
Just because the combined intelligence resources of the West could be brought to bear to track one of these things doesn't mean it's useless. Our carriers are pretty easy to spot, and look how handy they've been lately.
Let me see....
USA
Stealth bombers, w/ laser guided bombs.
Russia
Stealth ships, with supersonic torpedoes
Australia
Collins Class Submarine, with extremely noisy engines.
Something tells me we (AU) wouldnt win a war.
Hasn't the US had a stealth warship for some time now? I don't know if they ever deployed it, but there was an experimental Navy craft housed in Alameda CA that only came out at night until the project was no longer secret. It looked like a cubist Batboat, or an F117 strapped to a catamaran.
What ever happened to that project?
Let's just hope the US government doesn't resort to Slashdot as an intelligence source... ;-)
mailto:<?=implode("@", array("chris", implode(".", array("php", "net"))))?>
Right here, bitches
No, this aint a troll. See the headline.
There is a fine line between being a cultivated citizen and being someone else's crop. - A. J. Patrick Liszkie
It turns out its not a new ship at all. They consulted Microsoft on technology recycling. Funny that it looks a lot like a floating Mir...
Then 'Stealth' means it looks like a duct-tape bound pile of junk, similiar to what is usually found in my redneck neighbor's driveway.
Frankly, I'm surprised that the Russian government has money to spend on Military R&D when they just recently resorted to renting out the Russian segments of the ISS/Alpha as a tourist trap. Perhaps this practice is paying off?
Whatever is the case, I hope that this signals that the Russians are able to start competing in terms of scientific and technological advances again. Competition is good, and competition between superpowers-- so long as they're not openly hostile about it-- can result in some pretty impressive things.... The Apollo Program for example.
The next Slashdot story will be ready soon, but subscribers can beat the rush and slashdot the links early!
Of course, our Navy won't talk about it. I've a friend in the Singapore navy, though, and he says that the American Navy is very arrogant, and likes to show off by steaming close by, but being completely invisible on radar.
The article says this is the first ship of its kind in the world, but they note the distinguishing factor is that it is a stealth ship armed with supersonic anti-ship missiles.
Even Slashdot wants to hide some things
can be found here and here
Imperium et libertas
Autocracy and freedom
This is really interesting- could it happen to be a coincidence that this is announced the same day that Bush announced the U.S. withdrawl from the missile treaty even though Putin said it was a bad idea? On a side note, there seems to be hardly anything about this on all the top news sites, but it was on the front page of my newspaper this morning. How could something so significant be ignored so quickly?
The future isn't what it used to be.
First guess, this is a small(er) combatant, not a major fleet unit. (Based on previous Russian naval philosophy.) It could either be the centerpiece of a frigate navy, or the building block of a real navy. Given Russia's ongoing economic problems, don't bet on it being much more than vaporware for a decade at least.
for Dada.
~
MU!
Great, that's what the world needs right now, another arms race. What with the US deciding to ignore the AMB treaty and now this, the whole world is going crazy again.
America will be provoked into replying. This is bad. Russia barely has the infrastructure to support it's ailing nuclear warheads, and stop them firing off at the states, let alone getting locked into an arms race with the states again. They came of pretty badly last time, what makes them think it will be better this time?
--
This was going to be first post, but my computer crashed. Thank you Microsoft. Oh well, I have negative karma anyway.
From the submission:"This is a big step in Russia's attempt to re-establish itself as a world naval super-power, after a decade of budget cuts."
Well I wouldn't exactly say that Russia isn't a navy super-power. They countinue to produce the best submarines in the world. Right now their first fourth generation (Borey class) strategic missile sub is being built, and they're making a new attack sub also.
This Corvette is not just Russia's idea. Smaller ships with more powerful weapons are simply a better idea then putting personal and resources into a valuable, highly concentrated target. There are about 200 Corvettes in the world right now, and the production of them is a billion dollar a year industry. Russia uses these things for sub detection, coastal patrol, and escorting. They've got first rate anti-sub and ant-ship missiles, a helicopter, surface to air missiles, and a 55 million dollar price tag.
Hey, I know you're a big fan of those postings from alt.sex.stories, but there's no reason share this sick incestuous shit with the rest of us.
The future isn't what it used to be.
I remember a story hitting world news a lot of years ago (7-8) about the Russians privatising a major electricity company and a few weeks later as the military didn't pay their electricity bill 3 nuclear subs going China syndrome in a bay somewhere. The electricity company was stormed by a battalion of pissed of soldiers and the power restored diverting a massive nuclear meltdown!
So all things considered the Russians did well to almost keep up with American technology.
All speling, factual, tact, and/or grametical errers be the result of netwerk interpherance or# transmition ererrs.
check out the Bellona foundation's page : their Northern Fleet page is superbly detailed and they have tons of technical details about Russia's subs and surface ships. They even have some information about projects such as the Severodvinsk-class 4th-generation submarine class that got canned when the Berlin wall collapsed, or never got finished due to lack of funding.
"A door is what a dog is perpetually on the wrong side of" - Ogden Nash
"after a decade of budget cuts."
This is what you call all of about $300US being designated to research and development for their military?
"Technical details are very very scant on here - if you know more, please post below."
I have some technical details...
The thing is 3" long, made from a plastic, and powered my 12 caffeine-addicted mutant mice on a freaking wheel.
-EvilMonkeyNinja
Mild Mannered Host by Day
Wild Hammered Programmer by Night
http://www.rusarm.ru/exprod.htm
I've always wanted to know where I could pick up a battle tank. That and enough equipment to equip an infantry company or two. I wonder if they take VISA.....
Per Ardua Ad Astra
russia going to take over afghanistan? are we going to put those spiffy new cavation torpedos on board that sunk Kursk? that's some good stuff.
Too bad it won't fit under my christmas tree or in my backyard.
They appear to be not allowing direct linkage to the information on the Yakhont and Medvenka missile systems. You can still get to the info though - from the homepage click on Export Products, then click on Navy. Halfway down are links to the Yakhont and Medvenka.
Think outside the... Hey, where'd the friggin' box go?
Whether Europe becomes Bolshevist or whether we succeed in rescuing our continent and its people from this deadly threat will influence the future of many, perhaps all, future generations. This is the decisive historical significance of this war. The man who in the end frees our continent from its spiritual and military difficulties will be at the conclusion of the vast struggle, from the standpoint of history, the man of the war.
That does not change the fact that his opponents have done and are doing everything in their power to hinder the historical mission of the man who stands above his times. They are using their material superiority in population and weapons in an attempt to bring his work to naught. But all this will only increase the honor history will give him and add immortal fame to his name. Once the foul mist of vile and despicable wartime polemics has lifted, he will suddenly appear as the great historical figure of this enormous international drama, both to the living and even more to the coming generations.
Has it been 72 hours yet?
jgoebbels@propaganda.gov.3r
http://www.janes.com/defence/naval_forces/news/jdw /jdw010417_3_n.shtml
Here's the tidbit of interest: "The admiral also told reporters that the navy was launching the construction of the new Project 20380 corvettes, which will be used for coastal patrol, escort and antisubmarine warfare operations. The first of class is scheduled to be laid down at the Severnaya Verf shipyard in St Petersburg later this year. The design of this 1,900t stealthy corvette was developed by the Almaz Central Marine Design bureau."
Note that this article uses the term "stealthy corvette," which I suspect may have a different connotation from the 'stealth' technology we're generally used to.
Bon Voyage, destination: Taiwan
pr0n - keeping monitor glass spotless since 1981.
Do you have any idea how much it costs to develop something like this? It isn't being done for drug interdiction!!
Moreover, presumably all the ships in the US fleet are in constant communication therefore satelite imagery should be availible to all our ships...and in general to most of the first world nations. Those nations without satelite imagery availible probably don't have a navy large enough to really justify this sort of construction. Iraq had one of the larger armies in the world, border on ocean, and yet we didn't even hear a peep about their naval capabilities during gulf war.
Finally I doubt it is really impervious to radar guided weaponry. Stealth only works so well, once they get close enough they should be able to pick it up...satelite images should accomplish this.
If you liked this thought maybe you would find my blog nice too:
Er.... the thing is armed with supersonic anti-ship missles with a range of 300km..... slight overkill drug interdiction and coastal patrol no? Unless you consider blowing them out of the water before they are in your sea territory acceptable practice...
Kill'em! Kill'em all!
This is just like The Hunt for Red October. So all we need is Alec Baldwin, and we'll just hope that Sean Connery is the Russian captain, and we have their ship and nothing to worry about here in the U.S.
--- There is a man in a smiling bag.
A strategic advantage this ship's instrumentation has over US seacraft:
On the bridge are numerous PCs, which (amongst other things) allow the ship's manuals to be read in Adobe e-Book format *and* PDF format.
-- In the beginning was the WORD, and the WORD was UNSIGNED, and the main(){} was without form and void...
It was a short time after the creation of the F-117 Blackbird that the creator of that plane proposed a design of a submarine with stealth capabilities. It was turned down because of the loss of several knots of speed. Of course there are other methods of detection that stealh doesn't prevent, so it's fairly moot. Of course the designer didn't bother continuing on his design of a stealth aircraft carrier because he didn't expect much greater acceptance of a huge ship that looks like a new-age pyramid.
Slashdot gets worse every day... Pipedot: News for nerds, without the corporate slant
A strategic advantage this ship's instrumentation has over US seacraft:
On the bridge are numerous PCs, which (amongst other things) allow the ship's manuals to be read in Adobe e-Book format *and* PDF format.
-- In the beginning was the WORD, and the WORD was UNSIGNED, and the main(){} was without form and void...
This sounds like the Swedish Visby corvette, built by Kockums. They also make subs, most notably Australias Collins class diesel subs. Regards / ushac
Well - blow up a couple of drugtrafficking ships, and people will start thinking twice, wouldn't you say?
We do not live in the 21st century. We live in the 20 second century.
In other news. Russia announced today their "Hacker Protection Program" loosely modeled after the US Witness Protection Plan.
The plan is designed to protect intelligent Russian Software Engineers like Dimitry Sklyarov.
When asked for comment, Directory of Foreign Technological Relations, Boris Imatrov said "The US is quickly becoming a very oppressive government. In order to protect out technological interest we created Project 20380".
The plan is to man the vessel with the top 200 "hackers" living in Russia. In exchange for near total protection from US persecution (the ship is armed to the teeth and invisible to radar), the geeks will be responsible for making sure she is always patched with the latest Linux kernel and is resistant to all but the most coordinated DDOS attacks.
Do you have any idea how much money is being spent on the misguided war on drugs?
Something like this could very well be used for drug interdiction amongst other tasks.
Wasn't there a show on UPN with Hulk Hogan in some stealth speed boat with missles?
I live life on the edge
Iraq bordered on Ocean... Oh Yeah. One of the major reasons it invaded Kuwait was it had only 10 miles of swampy coasts. Kuweit had much more.
And, please, How does even a fly-every-minute detect object under clouds and fogs? In those conditions such a ship could be useful even against the US.
From the story:
"Using Windows NT, which is known to have some failure modes, on a warship is similar to hoping that luck will be in our favor," DiGiorgio said.
Bush's education improvements were
"I would go for New Zealand."
Nah. They speak English. After Afghanistan, it's France.
True, but there are more cost-efficient ways of doing that, like sending in a helicopter gunship or two..... or just use a sub to torpedo them.
I assume most country would require that ships suspected of carrying drugs be seized and searched as opposed to being fired upon first, even Russia?
Kill'em! Kill'em all!
PRAVDA.Ru had an interview with a deputy of the State Duma, deputy chairman of the committee for security, Georgy Maytakov. Maytakov was the chief of the intelligence of one of the divisions of the nuclear submarines, which were based in the Soviet harbour. Being the chief of the Pacific fleet, he repeatedly conducted the military exercises, on submarines too.
Question: Mr.Maytakov, what is your opinion about the events, which happened on board the Kursk? What do you think happened there?
Answer: The governmental commission with Ilya Klebanov at the head has done a lot to find out the reason why it happened, but unfortunately, in spite of the fact that the submarine has now been raised, it is very hard to understand, what caused the tragedy. We will probably never know, why a torpedo exploded. When the tragedy happened, the governmental commission had three versions to consider.
The first one is the collision with a foreign object. The second one - malfunction of a torpedo itself, the third one - the explosion of an old mine, from the times of the World War II. For the time being we know that the fuel blend of a 65-76 torpedo blew up, the governmental commission proved that. It should be mentioned here that there are various recorders inside a torpedo, and they allow to fix the information about the results of the practical shooting. Kerosene is used as fuel in those torpedoes and hydrogen peroxide is used as oxidizing agent. A powerful electric discharge is necessary to ignite the kerosene and oxidizing agent blend. Furthermore, the gaseous hydrogen and oxygen can be produced as a result of the hydrogen peroxide decomposition, and even a spark is enough for a blast. So, there are three conditions necessary for a fuel blend explosion: the destruction of a torpedo, the production of a flammable blend, high-pressure-air, or an electric discharge. These conditions must come altogether at one and the same time.
The torpedo explosion was equal to the blast of 150 kilos of explosive, which pulled out the back lid of the torpedo-tube, wrecked the partition between the first and the second compartments and the people, who were inside the first and the second compartments, died. Another blast took place in 2.5 minutes, a stronger one. Twenty-two torpedoes, situated in the first compartment, exploded.
Q: To what extent, do you think, the submariners of the Kursk were trained? How modern was the Kursk?
A: It was one of the most up-to-date submarines. The submariners are trained very carefully before they go to the sea. The sub was on the first line, which means cleared for action on the highest level. All the personnel of the sub undergo a complex of exercises, courses and so on in order to be able to survive. I can give you an example. When we studied at the military school, we had a diving course. When we served at the military vessels or submarines, we also had the diving courses. We were training and exercising all the time, to be able to seal or close up the holes, were taught how to struggle with fire and water - two major reasons, which can make a vessel or a sub sink.
Q: There is a popular Russian movie called Solitary Sailing, in which they show the Russian military exercises and the CIA was always trying to watch them. Is the situation different now? Has America become our friend?
A: That is an interesting question - if America has become our friend. There are no friends in big politics. There can be either allies or no allies. Any state is trying to guarantee its own interests. By the way, the movie that you mentioned was to the point. I remember those times: we had an objective not to allow any American aircraft cruiser get closer to a Russian vessel. Nowadays the situation is different. The American submarines, Norways Germanys reconnaissance vessels are near our shores. There are American submarines both in the area of the Barents Sea and in the Far East too.
Q: Do you think there could be an American submarine near the Kursk?
A: The governmental commission has made its conclusions about he possible versions: a collision, mines, torpedo malfunction. But this malfunction may be caused by different reasons. It is not ruled out that there could be a sub there, taking into consideration the fact that there was some object moving very fast, away from the area of the military exercises. I think there could be such a possibility.
Q: What is your opinion about Putin's visit to the relatives of the killed submariners?
A: The fact that he went there to meet the relatives is not presidents business, even if such a horrible catastrophe happened. There are other people to do that. Over 100 people died, but if 100 died in Chechnya - should the president go there too? This is the liability or responsibility of the adequate structures, of the commander-in-chief, of the defense minister. I can understand the president from the human point of view, but it was not reasonable for him to go there as the Supreme Commander-in-Chief. This resulted in very serious spending. According to the law about the status of a military man, there should be the adequate insurance allowances paid, depending on the status of a military man. We saw, how the president was attacked on, how intense the conversation with the women was, but all those military men and their relatives received a very serious compensation, the insurance for the death of their relatives.
Q: There is a legend that the sea does not like it, when the people raise the drowned sailors. Do you think it is normal that they have retrieved the submarine and buried the submariners?
A: I said that in the very beginning that it was not good to raise the people from the bottom of the sea. The sea became their cemetery and they had to stay there, like it happens traditionally. But there were different circumstances in this case. The president said they would retrieve the bodies and he kept his promise. There was a need to raise the sub itself in order to try to find out the reasons of the explosion.
Q: Do you think it is possible to raise the first compartment?
A: I think it is not real to raise the first compartment, sine there is no such compartment actually, but only the fragments of it. As we could see, the second compartment was destroyed almost completely too. I guess this story will remain a secret even for the next generation and on. There were a lot of such examples in the past. The sea does not unveil its secrets.
Q: To what extent are the submarines relevant from the strategic point of view?
A: The submarines have always been used for the army purposes. The difference is that they could be moved, in contrast to the land instalments, which could not be used. We moved our missile subs and so did the Americans. Talking about the strategic issue, like you said, the missile submarines are a requisite link of the missile and nuclear triad, the most secret link. You can see and down a plane, but you can never see a submarine. This triad consists of the land, air and underwater constituents.
Q: How good is the equipment at our vessels, bases, to what extent is our authorities attentive to it?
A: Not only the fleet, but the armed forces have fallen into decay over the recent decade due to the absence of the funding. The defense capacity has decreased considerably. This is the general state of the country. It does not allow us to maintain the forces, which were established during the Soviet times. We used to solve global tasks in the ocean, but now we have the goals, which should be solved in the littoral zone.
Q: The newspaper Version wrote that several dishonest officials of St.Petersburg set up a joint venture to sell the ships abroad. What can you say on the score?
A: I do not know if there was a joint venture there. One of the largest vessels - the Minsk and the Novorossiysk were really sold, the media wrote about it, and as far as I remember, those vessels were sent to China. But there was also the information, they were used as entertainment complexes, others say, they were being prepared for the army purposes and would soon travel. If talking about the Pacific fleet - the fleet that I know very well, I can say that there is quite a number of tugboats, which were sold to other countries.
Q: Do you think the president will be able to organize the Pacific fleet and other Russian fleets under the influence of the West, because of the improvement of the relations with the States? We know, there is a pressure exerted on our president.
A: It is precisely registered in the American strategy of the national security that America will do everything not to let any other power, with the exception for the USA, gain control over the resources, the USSR had. America will always keep to its interests - it is its first priority.
Q: So why does Russia have the understated interests?
A: It is about the economic situation in the country: we are unable to maintain the forces to guarantee our security. But on the other hand, the Soviet armed forces were based on the experience of the previous war. The civil war was over, the world war was coming, but the armed forces were organized on the ground of the civil war experience. This is the way our country is.
Q: So the army is totally not ready for the changes in the society?
A: This is one of the most serious issues. Yevgeny Shaposhnikov, the former commander-in-chief of the Commonwealth of Independent States, wrote that the country had collapsed, there was no Soviet Union, but there was the Soviet army left. He allowed to carry out the economic activity in the army at that time, during the period 1991 - 1994. Everything that could be of interest to the people - the uniform, military hardware - everything was sold. There is no place for the economic activity in the army, it should only deal with the military issues and take part in the arrangements, as provided and prescribed by the law.
Georgy Maytakov was interviewed by Ilya Tarasov
-- Anal sex: it's the wave of the future.
"Ya khont" is the most offensive sounding missile I've ever heard of.
"Ask me about Loom"
This news was released back in March 2001 in Russian:
. ht ml
http://www.mfit.ru/defensive/obzor/ob04-04-01-1
http://www.infoport.ru/main_popup.php?ID=312893
About mid March 2001 the project was presented at arms expo in Abu Dhabi.
News is not like brandy. It does not get better when aged for 9 months.
I think your sig says it all - shoot first, then check for a big cloud of white dust.
We do not live in the 21st century. We live in the 20 second century.
Um, notice that there aren't any -names- on that list, so they weren't actually -named-.
Sweden has a stealth ship as well. Here and here are some articles with a lot of technical details. This article has a few not-rendered pictures of it, and this article has even more info.
This is not a sig.
So if they lose contact with the ship, let`s say in an emergency, how do they expect to locate it quickly if it has hardly any radar signature ?
corvette project 20380
water displacement 1900 tonnes
price 1.6 mlrd roubles
export version called project 20382
first one will be build in st petersburg
pourpose: patrolling of coastal waters, escort and antisubmarine operations
sorry for my bad english
"It's such a fine line between stupid and clever" -- David St. Hubbins, Spinal Tap
The swedish navy also has a steralth ship. This link shows some data for the ship. the ship actually began trials earlier than stated in the linked page. Here are some drawing of the ship as well cruising, using airdefence missiles
So this kind of technology will probably be seen in many navies in the future. I can tell you that watching a ship this size come at you at 35 knots while your radar shows nothing is rather unnerving.
Und Central-Asia belongs to zee Germans! It iz vere zee Aryans com from! Ve should give zee Germans vat iz rightfully theirs!
Anyway, stealthiness in ships has been on the table from the same era that first stealth aircraft were designed. The main principles are:
My opinion is, that the Russia cannot regain it's position as a naval superpower. Sure, it has a navy with great many ships, but they are _old_. From around 1970-1980 cold war era. They are noisy, big, ugly, although they have a huge arsenal and quite impressive performance numbers. Updating such a navy to modern standards needs money - and that's what Russia doesn't have at the moment.
I think we're going to see more similiar military "declassifications" from Russia in the near future, as the USA resigned from the ballistic missile protection pact.
__
Zarathustra.fi
Modern man has no goal, no aim, no ideals.
Did you notice the claim DiGiorgio makes, "Your $2.95 calculator, for example, gives you a zero when you try to divide a number by zero, and does not stop executing the next set of instructions." I challenge any of you to try this experiment and if it works as he claims then throw that worthless piece of **** in the same place as you put that story.
...when can I buy one to cruise around my local lake in? Those supersonic missles sound nice...
"I don't trust goats," --To Catch a Spy
Whatever you think about the treaty, you have to give the Bush administration credit for their ability to manipulate the media and divert attention away from the important issues.
The first thing is that when the ship is travelling it will leave a wake behind it. Also I believe that the wake will disturb the organisms in the ocean that emit light. Getting a satellite to find the wake wouldn't be too hard.
Also a moving ship will have a thermal signature from the exhausting of heat/smoke through the smoke stack. Again visible on satellites. But could be reduced by cooling the exhaust.
To make the ship invisible visually there's always the old dazzle paint jobs from WWII (look at an old photo of a warship from that era) that works by disrupting the visual signature of the ship.
I believe that also the lastest method is to "fog" the air around the ship by spraying seawater into a fine mist.
Any other ideas?
"He who controls The Information, Controls The World"
The Hamina-class missile-boat:
l
http://www.mil.fi/merivoimat/toim_kalusto_5.htm
The tactic is to hide these ships in the vast archipegalo, and wait for the enemy to come close. Once the enemy is within range, they fire their missiles, and leave at top speed (hit 'n run)
Lesbian Nazi Hookers Abducted by UFOs and Forced Into Weight Loss Programs - -all next week on Town Talk.
Check here for more info (in norwegian only, sorry) on the Skjold-class MTBs. I'm not sure when they will be ready though. The boats are propelled by water jets which means they can turn really really fast. The swedish navy is also getting stealthy boats, and they got water jets too.
The first unit of the KNM Skjold class of stealth gunship is already beeen built and is actually here in the US on a display tour.
Bush uplls out of the ABM treaty with Russia & Co. and now they declassify a project to send the point that they haven't been sitting idly for the last few years. This craft is hardly anything to worry about. As others have said, its uses are limited and it is still detectable by some craft. But it is a sign that the Russian R&D is still going strong. And that's even more scary than anything else, because Russian military tech becomes global tech quicker than nothing. Russia is not likely to just ignore Bush's slap, but they wouldn't dare actually increasing their nuclear armaments so they're probably going to begin a more conventional arms race. And since China has the money, they'll be the sole beneficiaries from this race.
Pax Digitalia
Rick,
Actually, Western navies have been developing low-observable ships since the late 1980's.
For example, the current destroyers and the new DD-21 class destroyers for the US Navy sport a lot of features that were pioneered by Lockheed's Sea Shadow project, which was designed to drastically reduce the radar signature of surface ships. And the British are introducing new destroyers based on this research, too.
Note that these new ships' superstructures look like a bunch of pyramids. This drastically reduces the radar cross-section of the ship, and the addition of IR shielding on the engine exhaust stack reduces the observability of these new ships even further.
I took a little Russian in college (or rather, I took 13 credit hours worth and remember little ;^) ). "Medved" (prounounced a little more lik Myedvyed) is "bear", so "medvedka" is a diminutive form, i.e. a cute nickname* like "cute little bear". Check out this nifty online dictionary for things like this (type in "medved", hit "transliterate input", and away you go (if your machine and browser can handle cyrillic anyway).
*similarly "vod" is water, so "vodka" is "little water that we all know and love" ;^) [not to single out the Russians as heavy drinkers, iirc whiskey (the english mangling of the original gaelic anyway) meant "water of life"]
News for Geeks in Austin, TX
So what if Russia has a "stealth" ship being designed. Do not forget, no other nation has ever proven stealth technology other than the US.
And we are already building a fleet of stealth ships. DD-21 is our program to build new stealth ships. Our ships seem to have all the capabilities plus more. The difference is that we are very far in the development of the ships. The site has lots of cool PDFs include some cool artist renditions. The program was originally going to just create one class of ships but very recently was changed to create a whole new fleet of ships. The overall design goal is to increase lateral capabilities (ability to assist ground war by approaching shore and traveling down rivers). The program has recently been renamed to DD-X to reflect this goal.
As far as not being able to stop their missiles, that again is just not true. Aegis ships - a program I'm proud to be a part of - have been working on TBMD (Theatre Ballistic Missile Defense) for quite some time. This is different from NTW (National Theatre Wide) or what is common referred to as national missile defense. TBMD is not effected at all by the ABM treaty so that has been being developed for quite some time.
There are a lot of posts about Norway having stealth ships or other countries having stealth ships. The greatest part of the Norwegian Navy is their new frigates which runs Aegis. We sell alot of our technologies to other countries. Our Naval program is just so much better than any other countries. That's one of the benefits of having so many warm water ports.
This article is not even Russian government hype but just some newspaper trying to make a story that's just not there.
int func(int a);
func((b += 3, b));
We've had it for a while
Of course, our Navy won't talk about it.
We've had it for a while and talked about it quite a bit. And decided it was silly.
A large stealth vessel was part of the original stealth project, and is well documented. (It was a very fast powered twin-hull, which gave them an opportunity to absorb or redirect the microwaves that got into the space UNDER the main body of the craft.)
The problem was that it DID work.
But the rough surface of the sea also reflects radar. The stealth craft blocked this. The net result was a dark streak on the radar background, with the stealth ship exactly at the end of the streak closest to the radar antenna.
Effectively it was a big, black arrowhead on a dim green background, pointing exactly at the stealth vessel. The only thing missing was a label saying "Stealth ship HERE".
To solve this you'd need to deliberately transmit a fake of a surface reflection behind you - which means that you need active ECM for EVERY radar that shines on you. Then you risk showing up as a spotlight on PASSIVE radar.
Bantam Dominique roosters crow a four-note song. Once you've heard it as "Happy BIRTHday" you can't NOT hear it that way
Should of preview'd! It's http://www.dd21.com.
That's actually the page of the Blue Team (Lockheed Martin & Bathe Iron Works). The Gold Team has a page too http://www.dd21goldteam.com which is composed of Raytheon and Ingels Shipyard.
Two teams are designing ships in order to produce the best one. It's pretty late in the phase though and the contract was actually supposed to be awarded a while ago. Who knows what will happen know since 9/11 though and Bush's plans to restructure everything.
int func(int a);
func((b += 3, b));
I guess you're ready to pack your bags and give the US back to the Native Americans then.
Yes, it would take an "Anonymous COWARD" to post that.
Really??? Well I'm not afraid to say un-anonymously that I hate Zionist terrorist thugs and think that Sharon should be twitching on the end of a rope for all the people he's ordered killed.
The bin Laden video? Could be real, could be fake. Big deal. We've also got lots of video implicating Bush in the deaths of innocents, and lots more implicating zionist terrorists in the deaths of innocents as well (try as they might, the IDF couldn't shoot all the journalists).
Jerusalem? Yeah Jews built it but later they were kicked out. And if how they are behaving now is any indication, they probably deserved it. Get over it.
A more balanced view of the Palestine situation can be found here
You're using her as bait, Master!
Two peoples, one land. Both have reasons for it being their land. Who is the rightful owner? Both. But neither are really willing to share. The US should not take sides and should come out as a neutral party trying to help both sides get along. Instead, they continually side with the Isrealis.
Sharon and Arafat are both terrible leaders. What is really needed is two leaders commited to stopping the violence THEIR people provoke rather than take retalitory action against the other.
Martin Luther King was an example of a man who could bring two people together. This type of man does not exist in Isreal/Palestine as the land is too full of bigots and zealots. Where is the peace bringer?
The Hamas is nothing but a hate group. The Isreali and Palestinian Authority leadership might as well be the KKK. Why is there no single government that embodies both Palestinians and Isrealis? Why two governments? Because both camps are full of hate mongers and are not willing to work together. Thats the truth.
You want to help? Send a letter to your congressperson and ask for them to try to push the US in a neutral ground in this matter and to not to take sides. Sharon is always quick to say "We dont need the U.S.". Well good, we dont need him. Nor do we need Arafat for that matter. They both suck.
Hooo hoo hoo, boy, that's an amazing story there. Quite remarkable. Because we all know that the Chernobyl reactors were the height of Ukranian safety engineering, indeed it was virtually impossible for anything to ever go wrong at that plant. Therefore, it must have been the CIA. Or possible the Mossad. With the assitance of the Kerryton, Ohio Kiwanis Club. Either way, it's crystal clear that Walt Disney and his evil henchmen were definitely behind it. It had nothing to do with Homerski Simpsonski, Soviet Safety Commisar at Ukranian Nuclear Works.
...they're called submarines.
So, do you know why that sub that was sunk was called the Kirsk? Because cities in Russia have to sponsor a ship and it is then usualy manned with sailors from their city. This is common with all vessels and a very bad sign for the russian navy. They are not a naval superpower and barely were durring the cold war.
Re cently in the US Naval Institute's Proceedings, their monthly magazine, there was a great article describing how the amount of money that the Air Force recieves as a whole is staying the same, but their weapons of choice (F-22, B-2) are horrifically expensive. For instance, originally a force of 500-700 F-22s was envisioned by the Air Force when they decided to use the Lockheed variant of the F-22/23. However, due to budget overruns and contraints put on the program by the Air Force, that number has now shrunk to 150-250 aircraft. An analogous situation is happening with the B-2 - originally there were to be 200 of the long-range bombers. However, with current projections of $2B+ for each bomber, the number that the Air Force has for their force of B-2s is around 60, with very few of those bombers ever seeing combat, because who wants to risk a $2B bomber on a conventional bombing mission?
The overall effect of these expensive programs is to reduce the overall force structure of the Air Force. Even with the best technology in the world, a small number of planes can still be overrun by a larger number of planes. It has been suggested that the Air Force use something like the "high/low mix" that the Navy currently uses - the "high" being the multi-billion dollar carrier, with its power projection (read: ability to launch aircraft from anywhere), and the low being the much less costly guided missile frigate, with its land attack (Tomahawk), anti-surface and anti-submarine warfare capabilities. In the end, however, Congress will most likely end up giving more money to the Air Force.
I wonder if the 20380 in project 20380
just happens to also be the zip code for
Washington DC?
This so called stealth boat is also equipped
with yakhont 'first strike' missiles....
Unix, an obscure operating system developed by bored researchers in an attempt to get a better game playing experience.
WTF? This article has been up for how long with no Sunken Kursk comments? Frankly, I'm shocked.
Time to bunker down and prepare for a guided karma hit. No stealth technology to save my ass now...
They that would sacrifice their
Actually it doesn't cost much -- in rubles, that is. The Russia's legacy military-industrial complex is self-sufficient, as it does not require the services of private contractors. This gives them an opportunity to gain some share in the world's arms market. In 2000 the US held over 50% of the worldwide arms market with over $18 billion in sales. The next closest competitors were Russia with $7.7 billion, and France with sales valued at $4.1 billion.
The point about submarine warfare is to be as silent as you can be. Under water, you standard old radar doesn't work, visibility is close to zero. The only thing that works well is the sonar. Now, actively pinging your sonar (the pings you tend to hear in sub movies) is something you generally want to avoid, as it announces your position to all listening sonars in a large area. And because, in order for you to hear the echo of another ship, your signal has to travel back and forth, while other ships only have to get your signal, the diameter of the sphere where you are heard is about 4 timnes larger than that of the sphere where you hear the reflections. -> Don't Ping.
So everybody is sitting down there, listening and waiting for sounds from other subs. There are two kinds of noises emitted by a sub: It's screw noises and the water rushing past the hull. The rushing has a second bad effect: If it is loud (you're going fast), your own sonar can't hear anything beside that rushing. For other sub's, your screw is relatively good to hear. So two things: Build a hull that is very silent (makes as few turbulemces as possible, i.e. very good aquadynamical shape) and a similar screw which rotates as slow as possible while giving a strong output.
So stealth is all about being silent yourself. The only ones actively pinging are surface ships (they have nothing to loose, they are loud and sonarically blind because of the waves splashing against the hull) and helicopters searching for subs. Against that, you go with a sound-absorbing coating of the hill.
Shaping the hull so that it reflects sonar pings into different directions than where they came from (stealthy hull design) would drastically reduce its aquadynamical qualities. So you might be invisible to surface ships, but to the bigger threat, enemy subs, you are now providing a perfect targeting beacon if you move through the seas. Plus, because you are louder, enemy sounds degarde your own sonar readings, turning you very visible and blind at once. Not ideal. The only way to counter this is move very slowly, which is not good (sometimes you just need to get outta here fast _and_ silently, i.e. there's a helicopter around, it hasn't spotted you yet. If you are to slow, it'll spot you, if you are too loud, an enemy sub will spot you. Be fast and silent).
Last case in point: As stated, a stealthy hull has a worse aquadynamical performance. That not only means it's louder, it also adds drag, making it slower. But if somebody fires a torpedo at you, you can only turn and run. Torpedo's (excpet for the ones tested by the Kursk, as I've heard) are faster than submarines, but not that much faster. You can't really outrun it, but you can run away so fast that it'll run out of fuel before it catches you. Those knots of speed you loose with a stealthy hull are perhaps those that would have saved you.
EOP (End of Posting)
The ship is in the Skjold class, and is developed in Norway. The US Navy is thinking about buying, several of these. Take a look at
http://www.knmskjold.org/
And yes, some of the test systems are running Linux (because I, together with others, developed one of them.) We used RealTime Linux and Qt to make a distributed failsafe system for analyzing payload from optical sensors on the hull.
-- ess
The US has declassified Project 90210. Rummors have it that anyone who has seen this project have become violently ill and many have died.
Visit the Arcade Restoration Workshop @ http://www.arcaderestoration.com
Sure, Russia has economic problems. They also have a shitload of natural resources and plenty of poor people willing to work cheaply. Their economy may impair international trading, but a nation can usually find some way to get its citizens to contribute to the war effort. Bush thinks "Oh, don't worry about them, their broke." What he would say if he were intelligent enough to form a complete thought on his own would be more like "We shouldn't antagonize desperate poor people with immense military technology at their disposal."
(On Topic- somehow.. because its used underwater, like a ship?)
Wow! beats the heck out of the P11, thats for sure.
Sure boats have been usefull in the past.. but really I dont feel that they can keep up with the pace with stealth bombers capable of coming in, wiping out an area and getting out undetected.
Nothing more than a way of letting people know Russia is back on the map and showcasing how superior they are.
Think about it: you're looking for something that's a fixed shape and a fixed size (well, relatively fixed -- you can calculate by what angle the satelite is looking from) against a background that's usually pretty free from noise images.
'course, then there's always infrared. These nuke-yoo-lar suckers tend to run pretty hot.
Every year during my review, I just pray the words "slashdot.org" aren't mentioned.
:)
hawk
mmhh...
Check this out, seems your military industry is brain dead.
MOUHAHAHAHAHA
i had a sig, once..
IR passes through clouds and fog
"... Sure boats have been usefull in the past.. but really I dont feel that they can keep up with the pace with stealth bombers capable of coming in, wiping out an area and getting out undetected. ..."
Naval force is invaluable in modern warfare; there are numerous examples but an obvious one is the current action in Afganistan, a landlocked nation. Without the current cooperation from previously hostile nations, naval air power could have still done the job.
Stealth aircraft are neither undetectable nor invulnerable to intercept by missiles. Serbian forces were able to shoot down 2 stealth fighters in action against the former Yugoslavia. Conventional radar has extreme difficulty detecting them but there are currently 2 different methods to track them; both systems are well known to US and Soviet military and have been tested by both nations (and no doubt others).
Radar bounced off the sea from space can detect a ship's wake, which happens to point right at the ship. The process used is similar to decryption, where the natural ocean waves are the random noise and the wake is the message. Navigation radar and radio transmissions can be detected and triangulated. Infrared detectors in space can not only see plume from the smokestack, they can also see the wake from a large ship from space when cooler water is churned up to the surface.
Below the water, the US has very sensitive listening stations scattered about to detect submarines. US submarines can track a ship from quite a distance due to noise alone. Even when not underway, waves slapping up against the side of a ship make a distinctive noise (a problem submarines don't have). I suspect those "secret" ships have been followed by US submarines wherever they went for quite some time.
"Stealth ships" are a blue-water navy idea. But there hasn't been a major blue-water naval engagement in years. Today, the U.S. Navy is mostly used to project power onshore. Stealth isn't the primary criterion for that role. Armor matters more.
There's a good argument for heavily armored battleships for shore bombardment, but the old ones took thousands of people to run, and the Navy is short on people. The U.S. Navy had an "arsenal ship" concept in the early 1990s, but never built any.
I guess you guys (USA) figured a way round it but the stuff they paint on the Planes to make them super stealthy does work when it rains.
Bit of an issue if your tying to develop something stealthy that goes on the water.
Secondly, if your reasoning were to be applied to, for instance, the United States then all Anglos, Africans, Asians and their decendants should be exiled from North America because it belongs to the Native Americans who were here "several THOUSAND years ago" and who built great nations that were destroyed by European immigrants and settlers only a few hundred years ago. Does this illustrate the wrong-headedness of your and many other Jewish/Israeli defenses against their eviction of the Palestinians over that past several decades.
In the past all over the world there were very few checks on the powerful who wished to sieze more power or more land and influence. The peoples of the world were connected by fewer and weaker economic and social bonds. Cultural, geographic and technologoical diferences betwwen peoples allowed dominance of some nations or empires over others and the net destabilization of the invasion was low.
Today the world's cultures, nations and economies are much more interconnected and dependant upon eachother. Destabilization in one sphere has greater a destabilizing effect on the rest of the world than in times past. Additionally, liberal ideas and values have spread across the world. Subversion and subjugation of one people by another is no longer socially acceptable.
The Jewish reentrance to Palestine has come at a time when there is no longer popular acceptance of the kinds of suppression that the Jewish/Israeli people exert over the less powerful Palestinians. Popular sentiment against Israeli policy and condemning Israel's actions against the Palestinians was expressed clearly by the majority in the recent world conference against racism in Durban, South Africa.
The horrible and toughtless violence perpetrated by both sides in the Israeli conflict is damnable. It is true that the U.S. policy strongly supports Israel. However, this policy is clearly for net political and military/economic advantage. In an interconnected world, net advantages and disadvantages are more important than specific political issues. The U.S. must hold good standing in Israeli and Saudi relations in order to maintain military safeguards for the American economic assets in the Middle East region. Also, The historical U.S. support for Israel carries significance in that policy changes must not be made too quickly in order to maintain the credibility of the U.S. leaders, the policy that they execute and the regional stablity. To a lesser extent the democratic system in Israel must be supported as the expansion of democratic rule is a long term U.S. policy goal. The cultural differences between Israel and the U.S. are smaller than those between the U.S. leaders and the Arab and Musolem people. These factors are primary in the relationship with Israel and they weigh heavier than the plight of the Palestinian people. The Jewish Israeli's have taken advantage of this skillfully and caused great harm.
Personally, I find it highly embarrasing to live in a nation that supports the extermination of the Palestinian people. The onus for negotiating peace and combined prosperity in Israel lies with the Israel which has far greater wealth, power and political influence than the people they seem to blindly subjugate.
At this point the Israelis are fighting against a starving, and desperate enemy. Suicide bombing that is the mainstay of the Palestinian offensive is the extreme of desperation and implies a lack of rational thought. The Palestinian people have demonstrated that they are disorganized and without effective leadership. Therefore it must be Isreal's task to find a peaceful and equitable resolution. Assuredly, there will be no outcome but further terror and the eventual annihilation of the Palestinians without thoughtful peacemaking leadership on the part of the Isrealis.
check out the Bellona foundation's page [bellona.no] : their Northern Fleet page is superbly detailed and they have tons of technical details about Russia's subs and surface ships.
Now I understand why the Russians want to put the russian Bellona-co-worker Nikitin in prison!
Guess your comment is more wrong than the article. If you want to see something else than "cool artist renditions" there is a small picture at this page:
1 02 286.html
http://www.fedrelandsvennen.no/regional/mandal/
showing the proto-type KNM Skjold on the Potomac-river. (The article is in norwegian, saying that in January the building of six sister-ships of the Skjold-class will be started).
The Kursk sank on a training mission, and according to a revealing and meticulously researched print article in the October, 2001 issue of Men's Journal, the two primary reasons for the tragic death of the entire crew were: 1) faulty cheaper torpedoes, and 2) a Russian fleet chain of command that put covering their asses before the welfare of their sailors.
The Russian Navy is in dire straits. Submarine crews spend much of their time foraging for food. Their morale is terrible, training quality is low, and discipline is not what it should be.
Having the best equipment in the world is no substitute for having well-trained, motivated, sailors. Until the Russians can completely overhaul their Cold War-oriented, top-heavy, political-appointee command structure, and start spending money on training and sailors rather than on huge new weapons programs, they'll continue their rapid descent into military irrelevance.
Further reading about the Russian military from sources around the world:
BBC
India
Russia
Read the EFF's Fair Use FAQ
Jesus Christ, they've raised the Merrimac!
Ick. Man, "medvedka" is an insect about 3.5-6 cm long. Some people call "medvedka" spalax typhlus, some people think that it's gryllus gryllotalpa. Anyway, it doens't have anything common with bears.
Eh, don't forget we in Sweden also are working on a stealth ship..
/Gathers
http://www.naval-technology.com/projects/visby/
Two Soviet tank commanders meet in Paris. The first one asks "so, who won the air war?"
"The question of whether a computer can think is no more interesting than that of whether a submarine can swim" -EWD
It was code named Merrimac. Of course the North's radar left something to be desired as well. CSA Stealth Ship The Merrimac (CSS Virginia) certainly bears a striking resemblance to the Russian Stealth Ship.
This is complete bullshit. The fact that they own their suppliers is really irrelevant. Someone is paying lots of trained people to build shit. These people consume real resources such as food and electricity. The only way it could be self sustaining is if it was entierly paid for by foriegn arms sales.
Your right thats possible. Maybe they will sell it to drug smugllers...they are the ppl with the most to gain from a stealth ship
If you liked this thought maybe you would find my blog nice too:
a beowulf cluster of THESE!
No, Beowulf clusters can't imagine in Soviet Russia.
Bin Ladin doesn't give two shits about what goes on in Israel. It's a fucking excuse for him to carry out his addle-pated hate game against the USA, which he hates because it refuses to live in a backwards fifth-century-AD style like Saudi Arabia.
This is the core reason the United States no longer sees Russia as a key adversary and also why it won't let Russia into NATO - there is a clear realization that Russia continues to teeter on economic oblivion, and the US doesn't want to have to support Russia when the inevitable Sino-Russian war explodes (the Russians took Chinese territory decades back, and China has always contended that the property would once again be part of China).
Russia is an interesting place - it has interesting technology but teeters on the brink of becoming a third world nation.
I rembered a Poupular mechanics/Science articles a couple of years back talking about this.
Here is some more info.
I remember reading at the time that the general idea was to have as little radar cross-section as possible, very low noise, and almost now wake whatsoever.
The shape evidently took care of the low radar feed-back (as a matter of fact the whole squarish shape of all the 1st generation of stealth planes was due to the limitation of the radar echoing software simulation).
To reduce the overall noise they designed the ship to have the generators mounted above water, and only have electric engines in the submerged section.
And lastly the wake problem was well resolved by the catamaran like shape hull.
Murphy(c)
The Russian armed forces have had its budget cut out from underneath it. Its likely that most European nations put more money into defense than Russia can afford to at this point. Its likely that the Russians could not sustain prolonged combat with any of its traditional adversaries at this point.
First, it's HYDRODYNAMICS, the study of motion/s in an aqueous solution(water). As the water flowing over the surfaces of ANY vessel, it makes/produces noises that are detectable by sonar; since water is the BEST conductor of audio we have, this allows the topside ship to sweep given areas of known operations of the "enemy" and use triangulation of other sweepers to vector positional locations and speed as targeting references. Noises are minimized with flooring composed of rubber. Deck surfaces can be covered with sound reduction coatings as well, but this is a higher speed to stealth cost too, not to mention the turbulence added to the wake of the vessel when operating surface and especially sub-surface. One could also "try" a heavy layering of teflon on the hull, but production costs are way out of reach and probably not all that worthwhile to attemp as well. Minimizing and eliminating the signature sounds IS of utmost importance. We chart vessels by their sonar signatures and catalog them for reference when our navy is on patrol. We can tell the class of vessel, it's heading and speed by this, not to mention it's prop sounds and how fast her screws are rotating as well. Since R.F does NOT penetrate water far, and salt water even less; forget radar use. As for surface vessels; use IR targeting for locating ships! Thermal imaging can be used under water as well as on the surface. heat is dissipated faster in water, but close range should be possible.(I never used thermal imaging, so the above comment is made as a suggestion only). Sonobuoys are constantly dropped from recon planes in hostile zones to listen for enemy movements they were previously unaware of. Steel against steel makes a great homing device! Dropped tools, striking rock, coral or other submerged strata gives locations away to the "watchful" ears of the sonar ops. If subs make sounds approximating whales...do a study of wahale activities in the area, note the type of whales there and the noises they make against what YOU hear on the headphones. Abnormal sounds from creatures not normally found in the vicinity can also be a good giveaway too. Many things can and are used to locate the enemy, even "ancient" methods can be used as they are usually thought of as old, and are forgotten as well. The old, reborn has led many a man to his death. Nobody is immune to a well orchestrated attack of forgotten tactics!
206.39.38.2, DDN-BLK-36, DOD NET INFO CENTER. 800.365.3642 206.36.0.0-206.39.255.255 NET RANGE.
You don't need supersonic missiles to take out drug smugglers.
This is a weapon which threatens enemy battlegroups, or at least it would if the idea of a stealth ship was viable.
Ships can be tracked from space, and the US has researched this. A stealth ship isn't going to be able to conceal it's position from the USA, maybe it'll help confuse a few French missiles right before the US alters it's radar profile permanently.
Who cares about stealth ships? Besides the nuclear subs, the Navy is outdated and almost worthless anyways. Everyone knows that those super expensive carriers will be the first things sunk in a major conflict....
What is really interesting here is that Russia is releasing this information. It suggests to me that the motivation was domestic politics. Putin is hoping to benefit politically from the announcement, perhaps in the wake of concerns over ABM treaty and arms reductions. It is very interesting that the Russian leadership has to play similar games as US politicians and seek political gain from unveiling secret projects that during the Soviet era would not have been discussed.
Putin is trying to project the image that Russia is still strong and able to take a lead to a domestic audience.
I know you slashdotters are gonna love this one
Many Russian missile systems are called after rivers. For example, S-125 (SA-3) anti-aircraft missile was also known as Neva. Others used names like Tunguska, Dvina, Desna, etc.
It depends on the mission of the ship. I am pretty sure that the mission of this ship is coastal defense. For that mission her stealtiness is much less important than her cruising speed, 30 knots, and the range of her antiship weapon, 160 miles. That would let her leave port and, in half a day, be in position to attack a carrier battle group before the CV was in range to launch an attack on Russia. She would be able to use land-based air assets to give her targeting information to allow her to fire her missles long before she could detect the CV with her own sensors.
Though a little short on info, the US Navy's Fact File on the Sea Shadow is here.
A little off-topic, but the US Navy Fact File site contains info on all kinds of Navy military hardware. If you hear about a ship in the news, like the Enterprise, the Carl Vinson, or the Peleliu, you can find out more information (and links to most of the ships' web sites) there.
--Mythos
I tend to call "Israel", "occupied Palistine" i find it much more accurate. Israel would not even exist if the brit's and american's could resist waving their dicks around and imposing their will on the rest of the world like they owned it or something.. i can certanly see from the recent usa veto in the united nations that they still haven't lerned their lesson and will probbly require several more "9-11's" i find this most unfortunate because most of the american's ive met are usually good people when 1 on 1, it seem though when you get them in packs they can help but to act like a$$ H0les...
The Hebrews just invaded it
Anyway that's all ancient history
I think perhaps that comment was more on target than you meant it to be (no pun intended). If RADAR wasn't still the dominant means of seaborne tracking, people wouldn't have been spending the vast sums they have on Aegis technology, and rolling it out onto the fleet as fast as they can. They also wouldn't be nearly so concerned at suggestions that foreign intelligence groups have nicked the stuff, and might get it onto their ships, too.
On a side note, didn't the US recently decline to give Taiwan Aegis-equipped vessels as part of the military support they're providing, and give the "it's too powerful" argument as justification? (This is a genuine question; I have a vague memory but can't recall the details.)
If you disagree, post your argument. (-1, Overrated) isn't your personal censorship tool for views you don't like.
They're a clever people. It is like a country where the average IQ is 110 instead of 100.
Their submarines are simply known for their size and noisiness. Their Typhoon class submarines are just that: big and noisy. I have read quite a few documentaries on the Typhoon class and it appears more as an insult to the art of war. Inside each Typhoon is a swimming pool, jacuzzi, sauna, entertatinment room, and more for the crew's enjoyment and leisure. Although they are all nulear-powered, for their size and noise it is justified because they would need a large source of energy to bring all that shit with them.
Compared to the US Navy's Trident class submarine, the Russian Typhoon class is a bad joke taken to extreme measures. The Trident call submarine is more than two times smaller, holds the same ammount of crew members with one crew sleeping and one crew in operation, the Trident class submarine is nuclear powered with silent operation. I visit San Diego and go fishing quite often through the harbor. The US Navy has dry docks for the Trident submarines right there and you can see them docked! They have each and every Trident class submarine's rudder and propeller hidden with a large tarp because its silent operation is in the design of its propulsion system entirely.
I read in another documentary about how a submarine's crew can distinguish between civilian, cargo, and naval wartime vessels all underwater. Companies that build marine grade engines are ordered to build the propeller a certain way so it is distinguishable. Makes you wonder about the FBI and Magic Lantern virus. They are tracking everyone everywhere!
without prejudice
In 1947-48 the Jews accepted sharing the land. The Arabs refused! Since then the Arabs remaining in Israel certainly have had more rights than Jews living in Arab countries. Indeed the Arab citizens in Israel have had more rights than the Arabs living in Arab countries. So what happened to the idea of a Palestinian State in the West Bank and Gaza between 1948 and 1967...Jordan controlled the West Bank and Egypt controlled the Gaza strip. Why didn't they allow the creation of a Palestian State? They lost these territories in 1967 in their attempt to "drive the Jews into the sea." Just over a year ago at Camp David, Israel offered to give the West Bank and Gaza to the Palestians along with control over Arab sections of Jerusalem. Once again the Palestinians refused not only this, but also to continue peace talks. Instead they resorted to violence against civilian men, women and children
as the primary targets of their attacks. Why? Because Sharon visited a site in Jerusalem holy to both Moslems and Jews? Sharon had as much right to be there as any Moslem or Jew or Christian or any one else. Had the Palestinians instead returned to the negotiating table, we wounldn't have the mess in Israel and the West Bank and Gaza. Perhaps someday, a Palestinian leadership will emerge that will be willing to live side by side with Israel in peace. Two states, Israel and Palestine, living in peace side by side. This is the only viable solution. Unfortunately only one side, Israel, has accepted this notion.
As far as 911 is concerned, Bin Laden hates Christians as much as he hates Jews. He wants all Christian influence out of the Middle East. He also sees the conflict between Islam and Chritianity as a competition to be the world's dominant religion and culture. He's fighting what he views as the Christian crusaders. This has little to nothing to do with Israel or the Jews.
You can't target something using satellite imaging. To hit this will require eyeball guidance, or laser illumination from a targetting device. Either a plane will have to have a continuous view of it to guide the missile in, or a ship will have to be within eyeball range and guide the fire in by eye. Makes it pretty difficult to hit.
And this is only going to be a proof-of-concept, remember. You reckon every last thing that Lckheed's Skunk Works comes up with is going into production? They'll try out lots of different stuff to see what works and learn lessons from that b4 they build one for real.
Also, please note that world politics have changed since 1950. The Russians are no longer automatically the enemies of the US. It's not necessary to have the strongest army in the world, you only need a stronger army than the person you think is most likely to attack you.
Grab.
What methods?
Let's not forget that there is only one democracy in that entire region! Israel.
see www.slant-six.org
Yeah...as long as you are Israeli. If you are Palestinian living in Israel, you go unrepresented.
Israel has been a noble experiment on the part of the UN, but it is a failure. The characterization of Israeli "troops" as terrorists is not far off. The Arab body count steadily rises. Three here, four there. A police station bombed by an F16. Only evokes passing interest in the American press. But, let some Hamas wacko kill some Israelis and Sharon is ready to nuke and the US bends over apologizing for him.
Just the opinion of one white man who is not allowed to be critical of Israel without being branded a racist.
Truthfully, the Palestinians and Israelis deserve each other. If they can't find a way to forgive one another and find it necessary to propogate hatred from generation to generation, then they deserve to have their children shot dead in the street. Idiots.