O'Reilly Showcases PS2 Linux Gear

cascadefx writes: "The O'Reilly Network is currently running an article that showcases the much talked about Playstation 2 Linux distribution. Nice parts of the article include analysis by a Blizzard developer on the Linux PS2 as a gaming platform and a screenshot and pic of the hardware that comes with it."

Comments

It's really too bad...

[IIOIOOIOO]

There's no way to execute a PS2 Game DVD from the linux system if you boot up in Linux. The only way to play a game on the box when it's been Linuxed is to reboot with a game disc in the drive. Also, while you can develop your own stuff, there's no way to write it out to a CD/DVD that can play on any PS2 without the linux kit.

Re:It's really too bad...

[NanoGator]

Makes you wonder what the point of it is, doesn't it. What does Sony expect one to do with this kit?

I can imagine a meeting along the lines of "People like ot install Linux on game machines, lets sell them a version!" "Okay, just make sure they can't make games for it. If they want to do that, they must pay royalties."

Re:It's really too bad...

[casio282]

You're forgetting the fact the the PS2 has a USB port. So it should be able to work with any USB media source, e.g. CD/DVD drives, as well as hard disks. That means writing as well as reading...

Re:It's really too bad...

[b0r0din]

Also, while you can develop your own stuff, there's no way to write it out to a CD/DVD that can play on any PS2 without the linux kit.

Couldn't you just transfer a developed game onto another machine using the ethernet though, and write to a DVD that way? I'm not sure how the game is actually read, but I'd assume someone can figure a way to backwards engineer it.

This is a pretty sweet product, and relatively inexpensive for its usefulness. Too bad I just updated my current system, or I'd probably go out and buy both the system and kit.

Re:It's really too bad...

[IIOIOOIOO]

Yeah, I'm talking about being able to share my stuff with anyone who DIDN'T shell out the big bucks for the Linux kit.

Re:It's really too bad...

[Anonymous Coward]

Makes you wonder what the point of it is, doesn't it. What does Sony expect one to do with this kit?

See how much profits they can rake in from people that buy anything as long as its for linux.
If successful, they plan on a new, capitaly fruitful future:
Sony's Linux on the Refridgerator
Sony's Linux in the toilet
Sony's Linux on the countertop
Sony's Linux on the soles of your shoes

Makes you wonder why people purchase something that has "linux" attached to it...

Re:It's really too bad...

[Anonymous Coward]

You're kidding about the free streaming news, right?

http://realserverlive.princeton.edu:8080/ramgen/ en coder/secure/LIVEmsnbcTV46300K.rm

Re:It's really too bad...

[mjstrom]

Actually, that might be exactly why they did it. If you look at the results of the survey that they did prior to releasing the distro, the majority of the reponses indicated that they would use it as a hobby instead of for some professional reason. (can't find the link right now and its not appearing on the PS2 linux site).

Besides, the main source of revenue for Sony on the PS2 is royalties - from what I recall, the unit is basically sold at or below cost. So they have to have to restriction to still make money. If they don't make money then they won't make the PS2 anymore.

And if you were a commerical software company and you had choice of:

A) Fork big bucks over to Sony to write games for the PS2.
B) Pay $200 for the linux kit and nothing else.

which would you choose?

Re:It's really too bad...

[casio282]

The PS2 wasn't designed to be able to read CD-R/DVD-R media anyway...only developers' blue boxes can reliably do that. So to call this a cripple isn't exactly accurate.

And how long do you imagine it will take someone (or someones) to reverse-engineer the layer separating developers from the hardware? If that were possible, one could put together what's basically a runtime environment to distribute with/around homebrew ps2 games that would run on vanilla systems.

Or am I crazy?

Re:It's really too bad...

[Anonymous Coward]

Why not just burn CDs with a minimal Linux OS along with the game you want to execute?

Insert CD. Boot. Linux Loads... Game Starts.

It worked that way back when I had my Apple II+ (except with floppies).

Re:It's really too bad...

[Anonymous Coward]

You'd probably have to make a PS2 Emulator for PS2 to be able to run games from it :-)

Re:It's really too bad...

[jms]

I give it about six months before the device driver layer is disassembled, and new device drivers start to appear that allow full access to the hardware.

Six months or less.

Re:It's really too bad...

[HeUnique]

Maybe because PS-2 cannot boot/read DVD-R & CD-R/CD-RW ??

Re:It's really too bad...

[HeUnique]

But it won't help you very much...

The PS-2 machine itself doesn't read CD-R or DVD-R media's - so you can't even bypass the POST (or maybe it's the drive limitation) - what would it help you?

Re:It's really too bad...

[TheDefunctMunky]

I think this will go farther than being just a toy. As the article mentions, it should be very easy to port Linux applications to the PS2. As for the problem of not being able to burn the programs to a CD, I would assume that if you ripped some of the boot code off the DVD you could burn that on a CD and using the network card, you could transfer the files to your notebook or desktop and burn them from there and I think the PS2 would read them. I am glad that some company has finally gotten the guts to release a full open source operating system for their game console. I hope that other companies follow in Sony's footsteps, although, I doubt Micro$oft will...

Re:It's really too bad...

[Anonymous Coward]

The PS-2 machine [or drive] itself doesn't read CD-R or DVD-R media's

We'll soon see if that's really the case.

Re:It's really too bad...

[Anonymous Coward]

Ever heard of a mod chip? They have mod chips for PS2 that actually let people run copied dvd games that are on cdr's.

So that right there would get around the problem

Re:It's really too bad...

[Anonymous Coward]

See above...you can read cdr's, dvd-r's. BOoting from them requires a mod chip tho :) SOme of the ps2's (depends on the model) can use a exernal mod chip so there is no need to soder or open your ps2 for this.

Re:It's really too bad...

[CMiYC]

The PS-2 machine itself doesn't read CD-R or DVD-R media's

Well. Actually, the drive reads CD-Rs just fine.

Re:It's really too bad...

[Anonymous Coward]

This is true. If you mod your PS2 you can read CD-Rs fine (for playing backups of course) and you can copy games using DVD-R. I think the drive can it's just that the hardware tries to limit this.

Re:It's really too bad...

[Jaysyn]

How else do you expect to port NetHack to the PS2?

Jaysyn

Re:It's really too bad...

[SWTP]

Excuse me but why would you? Thats not what this is about. I am not flaming or chastising but I consider this a grass roots dev kit for, in SetTop box terms, almost free. And this is cheep!

Its like the version for the PS1 to allow a person or usualy a group so inclined to take their ideas and put them into form. A lot of the PS1 Yarrow's were bought by small groups. Some projects actualy made it to being sold as a real game!

I dont blame them in locking certain items that really do not cover what this is all about. They have the right to put locks for both protecting there market and the people that develop games for sale. I think the orginal kit had that limit of only another Yarrow or what ever it was called could play it. Its more for a better term a "comunity" to trade ideas etc around. A place to try ideas.

If you want to do all including access the DVD then there is the "normal" development kit with base cost, license fees and all the hardware it takes to do it. Its just what do you want to do. For the price its dirt cheep for what you can do. Esp since it has a real OS!

Besides the USB there is a NET connection! :)

Re:It's really too bad...

[zeno_2]

Could you not burn the data to an external usb writer?

And I dont think Sony ever wanted this to be a cute thing to do before popping in your ps2 game disks, so ya, it would be neat to be able to be in linux, and start a ps2 game from the desktop, im not going to boycott it because you cant if you understand what im sayin.. not that big of a deal.

Re:It's really too bad...

[Anonymous Coward]

>Makes you wonder what the point of it is, doesn't it. What does Sony
>expect one to do with this kit?
>
>
>
Dunno....Use it as backup method of acessing the internet? Linux does have support for this you know. Use it as a stand-alone/networked computer for research projects? Want to bet NASA and other goverment labs will be buying a bunch of these kits?

The world doesn't revolve around you PC-focused lamer gamer types so get over yourelves.

Re:It's really too bad...

[undercanopy]

funny, the PS2 read my home-brew DVD-Rs just fine. I haven't tried games, perhaps there's some software-based restrictions on loading games from DVD-R, but the hardware will read the disks without a problem.

Re:It's really too bad...

[Anonymous Coward]

What is the difference from right now on my PC where I must reboot into windows to play games? A game console *should* be like a toaster, it should just work with the minimum of fuss. We are still a few years away from the Tivo/PS2/PC all in one device...

Cheers,
_GP_

Cool! Where's my checkbook?

[eaddict]

I have been looking for a more open game console. I couldn't justify JUST games. I'd like to do a bit more.... Hurray!

Re:Cool! Where's my checkbook?

[jamesidm]

> I have been looking for a more open game console

Well the most open console available is Korea's GamePark 32. Some good info can be found at Lik-Sang and also dev'rs.

The console basically uses standard flash media for cartridges and plays back mp3s, has the same resolution as a SNES, etc.

Pretty cool

[creative_name]

This is gonna be pretty cool. A lot easier to do than the Dreamcast mod at least. I'll more than likely get one of these (assuming I can get the $$). I agree with the other guy though, it'd be cooler if you could play games outta Linux.

but is it...

[56ker]

going to be any easier to code for the Linux platform than the other consoles?

Re:but is it...

[Anonymous Coward]

As a ps2 game programmer, I would guess it will probably be harder. The ps2 is an incredibly complex machine. It has 5 processors - the IOP, SPU, EE, VU (2 of these) and GS. With this many processors, all doing different things, development isn't easy. Sony has said they won't release the specs to some of these processors, but they will be abstracted instead. This is probably for the best. I personally program a lot for the SPU and IOP (as well as the EE), and they are very painful. Its not fun. But a lot of the PS2's power is in these secondary chips.

Btw, I post anonymously because I'm not sure how much of this I should say.. =)

A nice toy, but that's where it'll end

[petesmart]

As cool as this is, I fail to see it providing any significant advantages. Most people will stick with their trusty desktop and not bother forking out. I on the other hand, am due for a pay rise soon.....

Re:A nice toy, but that's where it'll end

[HeUnique]

Go read the article again - it's for people who want to play with some linux apps on PS2 or learn to develop applications or games for PS-2.

You can't release games with it since a burned CD-R/DVD-R won't be able to be read by any PS-2 machine, but you can learn how to write games on it and maybe get hired as a PS-2 programmer..

Re:A nice toy, but that's where it'll end

[Anonymous Coward]

The advantage that I see is this.

1. Someone has kid(s) at home and they currently own a PS2 (Good chance of that). The kids love to surf the web and use online chat services a lot.

This is now a new option for thoses kids, rather than use the "main office computer". If they are around 8-12 years old, you probably don't want them banging around on your computer ALL the time, and you could buy them their own computer, but that will cost around a grand.

I would imagine that the PS2 stuff will be pretty solid, and if it only cost $200 more, then it is a no brainer for people with kids.

Hmmm almost an Internet Appliance....

Steve Michael

I am not saying that this will replace the PC; but it will definately supplement it.

Re:A nice toy, but that's where it'll end

[zeno_2]

I dont really see the big problem with the dvd drive in the ps2 not being able to read cdr's and such, just use an external drive, and it shouldn't have that problem.. If it does it wont for long =).

You can't release games "as a retail product" because its probably on line 5443 of the EULA that states you wont be able to do that, as this is going to be a hobbyist machine.. But, with that website mentioned above, they have space available to do a sourceforge type of thing, so you will be able to 'release' your creations, and others would just download it and save it to the HD.

Im gonna buy one of these.. I probably wont buy an external cdrom, because I can just share out a drive on my network and pull it across that way. I dont really plan on doing that much, as most of the programs and other stuff i get comes from my cable connection anyway. What im really lookin for is some good tutorials and guides on creating games on this thing, even something like a final fantasy 1 type of game, using the ps2 controller would be great.

Re:A nice toy, but that's where it'll end

[petesmart]

I aint reading it again, I wasn't overly impressed the first time ;)

I'm talking about the general public, geeky or otherwise. People wishing to become programmers will have to go a damn sight further than using this. But that is not to say that this isn't a good start.
Hence, this is a great toy, and, but how many people can justify having one? As cool as I think it is, I probabally wont be going out of my way to get it. As far as scrotum grabbingly georgous toys so, this has to be quite high up there. But the vast majority of people, as much as they love the idea, won't bother.
And if this thing ever makes it onto the high street, I'll take it all back, and you can gloat and feel smug ;)

Re:A nice toy, but that's where it'll end

[Anonymous Coward]

If you're interested in parallel programming it most certainly is worth the cash.

Re:A nice toy, but that's where it'll end

[Anonymous Coward]

"...You can't release games with it since a burned CD-R/DVD-R won't be able to be read by any PS-2 machine..."

Correct, but there is this nifty thing out there called the internet - hrm.

Such a waste of time...

[Anonymous Coward]

Linux on my PS2? BAH! This is a horrible waste of time!

Why bother running GAMES under Linux

[qurob]

I'm sure there's tons of cool things you can do with Linux on a PS2, but why bother with games?

It would make ports real easy to do, but you'd be missing the potential of the console.

Anyone got any idea of what you'd lose, performance wise, for say a raw game vs a linux based game on a PS2?

Re:Why bother running GAMES under Linux

[Scrameustache]

"Bother" running games?

Simple awnser: for the money.
With this kit a small operation can start creating a game, get far enough to prove to investors that they have a good product underway, get more money, get the real develloper kit, finish the game, release the game, get rich.

Re:Why bother running GAMES under Linux

[someme]

With this kit a small operation can start creating a game, get far enough to prove to investors that they have a good product underway, get more money, get the real develloper kit, finish the game, release the game, get rich.

Hey, I didn't notice it was that easy. Seriously though I guess the amount of small teams getting money for their development through programming a pre-version with this kit which they couldn't have gotten writing a pre-version on just any platform is zero.
Or am I wrong in my impression of what this ps2gl thing is - an opengl version that is layered ontop of ps2 specific graphics functionality? So what you do is show off your opengl skills not your ps2 skills. And you could do that just as well on a pc. No console required.

Re:Why bother running GAMES under Linux

[Scrameustache]

And you could do that just as well on a pc. No console required.

Touché
But I rarely play on a computer, I'm a console kinda guy...that had not even ocurred to me.

On the plus side for my idea (despite your cynical demolition of it): beta testing for consoles is much easier for consoles, you don't need to do compatibility testing for all the possible video/sound card, OSs, etc. So that's a plus for my utopic small operation. (I want the small operations to exist, I want mre original games, less cookie-cutter crap-o-rama...you may sayayyyyayayy I'm a dreamer...)
:)

Re:Why bother running GAMES under Linux

[Anonymous Coward]

From Linux for Playstation 2

What are the differences between the Linux (for PlayStation 2) development environment and that used by professional game developers?

The final major difference between the two is the operating system. A licensed developer creates games for the PlayStation 2 which use a light weight proprietary operating system kernel. This kernel offers much less functionality than Linux, but has the advantage of offering slightly faster access to the hardware.

re: No "Runtime Environment" to go through.

Re:Why bother running GAMES under Linux

[Anonymous Coward]

"So what you do is show off your opengl skills not your ps2 skills. And you could do that just as well on a pc. No console required."

Do you understand what parallel programming is all about? The PS2 is the closest thing you can get to a fully SMID complaint device, the PC is not - not even a little bit - tiny pipes and big buckets vs. huge pipes and tiny buckets!

Sony has tapped into the future of media programming with the PS2...

OpenGL!? Why? How about writing code specific to the PS2 hardware directly? I for one will not be using OpenGL - down to the metal man (via the RTE, but pretty close)!

A Different Path to Gaming Mainstream

[rnicey]

Just imagine, if you will, the ramifications of a major console with Linux at it's heart. Although it's not the default OS on any big console it's probably just a matter of time.

Instead of constantly trying to catch up with Windoze in supporting games, imagine if there was such a console producing masses of software which would be ready to spill out in quick porting efforts.

I have the sneaking feeling it's not too far off. Gotta give Mr. Gates credit, he's seen it coming (xbox).

Not just any Blizzard developer

[geekd]

The Blizzard developer quoted in the article is non other than Sam Lantinga, of Loki and SDL fame.

In my very limited email correspondance with Sam, he proves to be a great guy. SDL is an awesome development API, and he already ported it to the Playstaion 2 Linux.

Re:Not just any Blizzard developer

[56ker]

You've explained what SDL is - but what's Loki?

Re:Not just any Blizzard developer

[geekd]

Loki was a game company that ported current (or slightly old) games to Linux. SDL was originally developed there for thier porting process (it's quite similar to DirectX).

Loki ported Myth 2, Alpha Centari, Sim City 3000, Tribes 2 and others.

They went out of business a few months ago.

Re:Not just any Blizzard developer

[ksshah]

Assuming that you aren't being sarcastic or anything like that, Loki is a company that used to port games to Linux. They ported Quake II, Tribes 2, Civilization, and a bunch of other games. They stopped after a lack of monetary support.

Re:Not just any Blizzard developer

[0x0d0a]

I have to agree. Sam is really cool, and the benefit the Linux world has gotten from his work is tremendous -- it's fostered a whole arena of people coding and a fair degree of commercial development.

Regardless of how awful the rest of Blizzard might be, Sam is a Good Guy (tm).

Not too useful

[Gizzmonic]

The PS2 is a gaming box already, why limit its potential by adding the overhead of Linux? The whole point of consoles is to deliver maximum performance with a stable platform.

While it was cool playing Doom on Dreamcast Linux, this is definitely for personal amusement and not for "real" gaming. Commercial developers won't touch it, and the inability to produce games on removable media will limit the usefulness of the PS2 as a homebrew game maker. In short, this entire kit is a waste of time.

Re:Not too useful

[Scrameustache]

this is definitely for personal amusement and not for "real" gaming.

Yeah, when I play games, personnal amusement is the farthest thing from my mind! ;-)

Re:Not too useful

[TurboDog99]

Actually, there wouldn't be a tremendous amount of overhead. If you were to write a game based on Linux for the PS2, it would most likely run in single user mode, so all you would be running is the C library, SDL, and the drivers. Nothing would be running in the background, and you would have a tremendous amount of development tools available to you on your desktop machine. People forget that Linux is really just a kernel, and that you can use just the pieces that you need. A kernel with only the drivers for the Playstation devices would be small and efficient. If Sony were to support Linux as the standard OS for the next Playstation, they wouldn't need to put so much effort into a development environment, and they would have a much larger base of potential developers than with a proprietary OS. Easy development with familiar tools is Microsoft's advantage with the XBox.

Re:Not too useful

[CMiYC]

In short, this entire kit is a waste of time.

Says who? You? Well then its a waste of time to you. Last time I checked, I do not have any of the tools I need to develop games and/or applications for my PS2. In fact, I'm looking through all of my directories right now and GCC doesn't seem to support the PS2. So no, it is not a waste of time. I think it'd be kind of fun to try and write my stuff to run on my PS2. As far as limiting the usefulness of a "homebrew game maker" seems to me anyone with the Linux kit would be able to play the games. You are, afterall, getting a network adapter with it. The kit isn't so that I can go off and make a fortune as a game designer. Its so I can do something off the wall with my PS2. It also means I'll probably hold on to the hardware for longer now because I can do something "else" with it.

Re:Not too useful

[zeno_2]

Well wow heh.. The PS2 is a gaming box already, why limit its potential by adding the overhead of Linux? The whole point of consoles is to deliver maximum performance with a stable platform.

I have a question for ya. Do you have a hobby? When you do whatever your hobby is, do you compare yourself to pro's that make a career out of what you do as a hobby?

While it was cool playing Doom on Dreamcast Linux, this is definitely for personal amusement and not for "real" gaming. Commercial developers won't touch it, and the inability to produce games on removable media will limit the usefulness of the PS2 as a homebrew game maker. In short, this entire kit is a waste of time.

This isn't a cheap dev kit that they are releasing for all gaming companies to use instead of the real dev kit. Sure commercial developers wont touch it, they have a dev kit already. Sure they aren't going to touch it, because their dev kit is professional use that comes with much more documentation then this does.

And im wondering where you get the idea that you will not be able to produce games on removable media. Sure, if your about as smart as a rock you might think that, but anyone with a half a brain will figure out a few things to get around this. And trust me this isn't a mountain were trying to get around. If you get a ps2, with this kit, your going to have quite the amount of choices when it comes to 'produce' games on removable media. Well first off, you are probably not going to be producing your games on removable media, unless its just a copy or two. Your not going to be making mass copies of your game to send out, its just not going to happen. Doesn't reall matter much, its a very good way to blow a ton of money that you wouldn't have to. But for someone who's as smart as a rock you may chose to do that. I myself will probably take advantage of the network card that comes with the kit. Hmm.. im on a pc now with a cd burner, and im pretty sure its possible to take something off of one hard drive, and put it onto another. So, theres one way, copy the file to my pc and burn it. Don't have a pc, buy a usb burner, use it on the ps2. Dont want to spend that kind of cash? Go make some friends with cd burners and have them do it. In fact, you could even *post* your game someplace on the internet for anyone with a kit to download. Wow, there is a couple ways right there.

Im not going to be buying this box because its fast. I do not care whatsoever how much 'overhead' linux might cause, cause frankly I wont be able to code good enough for the thing anyway to maximize the performance in the first place. Im not going to try to create quake 5 or anything, but it will give me something that I can create, and have game controllers built into it that will work. Im sure this is probably the case for many who are interested in this. Im frankly appalled at your post, you must have mistaken this 'hobby-ist' tool to the dev kit that probably costs a few thousand bucks. Remember, 200 bucks for this kit. Heck, mount this thing in a car for a great mp3 player, and if your rich enough, you could have another in your house and use the hard drive as a removable one to switch between the two, and add new sonds from your home ps2. Theres all sorts of shit that you can do with this thing, but, if you can count the amount of brain cells left on your hands, then the "entire kit is a waste of time" as you so politely put it.

Now, id like you to come up with a single response to that. I didn't think so...

Re:Not too useful

[Anonymous Coward]

"The PS2 is a gaming box already, why limit its potential by adding the overhead of Linux?"

You simply don't have a clue. Huh? That makes no sense... at all.

Maybe some people would like to try their hand at parallel programming without having to by a super-computer? Hrm... Or maybe some people would like to use a gaming box to write games? Maybe? No?

"In short, this entire kit is a waste of time."

In short, you are a waste of time - why did I even bother replying to this garbage?

PC replacement?

[ekephart]

If one has a PS2 and this Linux distro, why would one even need a computer at all. Set the cable modem next to the monitor/television and you are set. I don't follow Windows emulators but, if also there were a very good one out there I could watch the Simpsons and play Civ3 during commercials, without even having to SPIN THE CHAIR. This is truly beautiful. :,)

Re:PC replacement?

[Indras]

I could watch the Simpsons and play Civ3 during commercials, without even having to SPIN THE CHAIR. This is truly beautiful. :,)

You truly are the pinnacle of the information age.

Re:PC replacement?

[blazin]

Get a KVM switch and you could turn in the swivel chair for a recliner... Get one like Homer invented on the Simpson's, and you wouldn't even have to leave the room... Ever.

Re:PC replacement?

[Anonymous Coward]

that is my interest in Linux for Playstation 2. I'm a comp sci major and I mostly use linux. I have an old PC (486) that is just getting me by but I need to goto the lab whenever I need to get something done that requirs speed. Everyone tells me I should upgrade to a new PC. But, being a poor college student I don't have the money to buy one. However, I do have a Playstation 2 (of course I have the money for game systems we all have priorities ;)) I could install Linux on it an viola! a brand new programming, paper typing, E-mailing, and web surfing computer is born. =)

Re:PC replacement?

[CMiYC]

Guess you didn't read the article. But that is not surprising. If you think about it, the PS2 makes a pretty limited general purpose computer. It features very little upgradibility and limited general computing power. As I recall, it only has 32megs of system RAM. That's fine for running a couple of applications, but nothing memory intensive.

3d modeling

[Kizzle]

How about running a 3d modeling program on there. The ps2 has a extremly decent video system. Could that be used to render stuff faster?

Re:3d modeling

[Anonymous Coward]

Well, for modelling it would be OK, but you'd hit the same problem as with using NVidia's cards for it:

You want high performance anti-aliased lines, and Z buffered, shaded triangles. Game cards (and the PS2) are highly optimized for laying down multiple textures on triangles. Modellers don't use much in the way of texture maps, and even using them for preview doesn't help much, since the time to render shaders into textures so that gamer hardware can apply it to a triangle is large enough that you might as well just do a lowres, normal preview and get better image quality.

Using PS2s for a render farm would be the absolute height of stupidity, since they have relatively slow CPUs, and very little memory. $299 (for the PS2) + $200 (for the linux kit) will buy a rack mount athlon that will be several times faster running prman.

Drive will only read "official" PlayStation discs

[hashashin]

One paragraph that jumped out at me:

Those interested in buying and playing around with the PS2 Linux kit should be aware of some things before getting it: Access to the PS2's DVD drive is restricted so that only official PlayStation discs can be read; and CD-Rs and DVD-R discs won't work in the drive. However, the USB ports on the PS2 are standard, so some USB external CD and DVD drive models that are supported under Linux could be used with this kit.

Too bad it can't even read CD-Rs, though I suppose there's probably a mod that would let you do that.

Port wars

[Scrameustache]

So that's the plan!

The evil Xbox's main attraction to devellopers is the fact that you can make games that will be a breeze to port back and forth from the PC to that console and vice versa.

Sony fights back with something that makes it as easy to port to and from linux and the PS2!

Wouldn't it be nice if game companies would sell their games along with a dumbed-down linux distro now? With instructions on how to make a partition on your windows formatted machine so "normal" users could cross over...

that's it...I'm starting a game company! ;-)

Re:Port wars

[martissimo]

hmmm if i was gonna compare which has more value (porting ease vs linux or windows), there is one clear cut choice as too which path is more profitable. Probably close to 90% (arbitrary stat, just a guess here) of home PC users use Windows, and even a *bunch* of Linux users have dual boot just for the purpose of gaming.

Don't get me wrong, i only choose to boot windows when i plan on gaming, and would love to see more games that are good on Linux... but frankly i cant see this as a major factor in why Sony put out this Linux kit.

Should be some cool home brewed developments come out of it though...gonna be kinda fun to watch how this shapes up

Re:Port wars

[XMunkki]

Actually porting from Xbox to PC is usually harder, as you have many configurations to worry about. Developers use the features Xbox has (gf3) and a corresponding PC would most certainly need these same features. When porting from PC to Xbox, there comes a question about the 64mb memory size.

So sure, it's easy to get started with xbox, but porting is always another issue.

they need help with PS3

[moankey]

Well so far the Sony heads have said they need the next PS to be 1000X the power of todays and since it will be impossible to wait for hardware to catch up they need distributed computing to help, yet they cant provide details, probably because they dont know ...?

What better way to develop the next PS3 then get a bunch of open source free for all coders, developers, and testers to get it done first so they can take it or know where to start, all the while making $199.99 a pop.

Hopefully someone will make an ISO of the CD and tell people how to use their existing Keyboard, mice, and HD to set it up without ponying up $200 clams.

Re:they need help with PS3

[Flous]

The 200$ probably bearly covers the hardware. I mean, it's a 40 gig HD, keyboard, mouse, ethernet adaptor and video adaptor. I estimate that the actual linux distribution comes around 50 bucks, which is pretty cheap for a boxed distro.

Re:they need help with PS3

[CMiYC]

So instead you are going to buy your own mouse, keyboard, harddrive, network adapter, and video adapter resulting in saving money? Also, to use a burned copy of the CD you're going to need a modchip so don't forget to factor that in. When its all said and done, you've done what? Saved your self $20? Oh wait, no, you cost yourself at least $20.

This effort has nothing to do with the PS3. Its based on their GScube arch which is nothing like the current PS2's arch. So I'm kind of at a loss how anyone buying the kit is going to help Sony. For one thing, I find it hard to believe that they are making $200 a pop. They are probably making far less. They are using this as a public relations ploy. Make a little on the hardware they sell, but make a lot in the minds of the users.

Re:they need help with PS3

[Emil Brink]

Its based on their GScube arch which is nothing like the current PS2's arch.
Only if consisting of multiple instances of the PS2's Graphics Synthesizer rendering subsystem in parallel is "nothing like" the PS2. Reading the first sentence of the second google hit supplies this clue. For free.

Re:they need help with PS3

[belroth]

I'm sorry, I tried to resist and failed...

Well so far the Sony heads have said they need the next PS to be 1000X the power of todays and since it will be impossible to wait for hardware to catch up they need distributed computing to help

You mean I should imagine a beowulf cluster of these?

Re:they need help with PS3

[Anonymous Coward]

"Well so far the Sony heads have said they need the next PS to be 1000X the power of todays and since it will be impossible to wait for hardware to catch up they need distributed computing to help, yet they cant provide details, probably because they dont know ...?"

Yeah - they do know how, read:
http://www.wired.com/wired/archive/9.05/gs3.html

My main reason for getting it...

[Blackwulf]

A lot of people are saying it's not all that useful because it can't play DVD's in Linux and stuff...I want to get it because it allows you direct access to the PS2 graphics hardware and will give me some experience in programming console games. I would have killed to have gotten a Net Yaroze (for the original PlayStation) just to get to play around with it. With the Net Yaroze, you developed on a PC and uploaded about a meg and a half max through a paralell port. At least now I can develop on the box (through ethernet) and play my game right there, and then send it to other people with PS2 Linux.

Would you want to make this your only Linux box? Not really. Make it a server? Nope, not really. Use it as a way to program PS2 games without paying the extraordinarily high Sony licensing fees? Yep. That's what I'm using it for.

If I want to hack Linux, I'll just hack the linux PC I already own.

Re:My main reason for getting it...

[ProfMoriarty]

Use it as a way to program PS2 games without paying the extraordinarily high Sony licensing fees? Yep. That's what I'm using it for.

According to the article, while it's possible to go to the metal with Linux, the major question I would ask is ... Linux APIs =? Native APIs.

If so, the I would agree that this would be a fantastic way to get our feet wet.

OTOH, it may not be so great since they "turn off" access to the DVD that are not "Official". So programming a cool game under Linux will limit the distribution of that game to ... you.

Ahhhh ... the magic of /. and its effect ...

Re:My main reason for getting it...

[icebeing]

OTOH, it may not be so great since they "turn off" access to the DVD that are not "Official". So programming a cool game under Linux will limit the distribution of that game to ...
you.

Er, not really...

one word: tarballs

ice.

Re:My main reason for getting it...

[kwashiorkor]

Uhm... the kit comes with a network adapter. NIC + broadband connection = distribution network. No need for discs, or licensing. Quite wonderful really.

Re:My main reason for getting it...

[CMiYC]

So programming a cool game under Linux will limit the distribution of that game to ... you

No because it comes with the network adapter. So I can send it to other people with the Linux Kit. Where's the fun in that you ask? Well, its fun because I didn't have to play the high license fee. If all you had to pay was $200 to develop for the PS2 and produce commerical games, don't you think companies would jump on that like mad?

Re:My main reason for getting it...

[Blackwulf]

According to the article, while it's possible to go to the metal with Linux, the major question I would ask is ... Linux APIs =? Native APIs.

If I want to program in the Linux API, I can just use my Linux PC that I got here next to me. The Linux kit will offer direct access to the PS2 proprietary video and rendering engine, which is what I want to get my grubby little hands on.

And everyone else mentioned the broadband adapter, so I won't do the whole "me too!" thing.

Re:My main reason for getting it...

[ProfMoriarty]

The point that I was attempting to make, was that programming USING the "Native APIs" may be different that using the "Linux APIs" ... IOW, you can't just take a game that you create under the Linux version of the APIs and recompile for the "Native APIs" and you have a game ...

Now, granted, I don't have one, so thats the main question that I had ... do the "Linux APIs" for programming the PS2 even resemble the "Native APIs" ...

If they are really really close, then its a better deal than if they aren't even similar.

Also ... what performance impact will there be if you're running under Linux vs. Native?

Re:My main reason for getting it...

[ProfMoriarty]

Again ... this depends on the programming set that you get to work with ... there MAY be something in the libs that won't allow sending a game that you make to your friends ...

Of course this is all conjecture and pulling out of my @$$ since I don't have one ... but yet we DON'T know what the Linux stuff is going to be like ...

We do know that they won't allow access to a CD-R through the DVD drive ... the article stated that much ... what else have they hampered ...

Re:My main reason for getting it...

[CMiYC]

According to the Playstation2-Linux.com site it is perfectly acceptable to send the games/programs you create to other Linux kits. We do know what the Linux stuff is going to be like. The group that is putting the whole thing together is pretty forthcoming in their message boards. Furthermore, we are only being limited to how the hardware is accessed. Other than that, it is a fully fuctional linux system.

Re:My main reason for getting it...

[ProfMoriarty]

Hmmm .. I stand corrected ... to a point ... you must own a Linux kit in order to play any games that I would happen to create.

Re:My main reason for getting it...

[Anonymous Coward]

Come on, your game should be able to adapt to a completely new api without touching more than 5% of the sourcebase.

Well seeing as how I'm a troll now...

[NanoGator]

Heh i got modded down for being a 'Troll'. I honestly didn't mean it that way. Oh well.

"Actually, that might be exactly why they did it. If you look at the results of the survey that they did prior to releasing the distro, the majority of the reponses indicated that they would use it as a hobby instead of for some professional reason"

I remember something along those lines. I think if that was behind the decision to not include things like DVD support, then Sony misinterpreted people a bit. I think the expectation to porting Linux to the PS2 is that a hobbyist would be able to access the entire machine. But it sounds like Sony crippled it, presumably to prevent ppl from exploiting it.

That's kind of the problem with having a company release a product that has it's own interests to protect.

Pity, Sony could have had a really good reputation for being 'hackable' if they had supported it. I might have bought a PS2 just to play with the apps that other people make.

Preorder at playstation.com for $199.99

[IdleMindUI]

Not an awful price for the hardware, but not great, for $200, you get

• Linux (for PlayStation 2) version 1.0 software
• Monitor Cable Adaptor (for PlayStation 2)
• Internal Hard Disc Drive (40 GB) (for PlayStation 2)
• Network Adaptor (Ethernet) (for PlayStation 2)[10/100 Base-T]
• USB Keyboard & USB Mouse (for PlayStation 2)

Here ya go!

Re:Preorder at playstation.com for $199.99

[Anonymous Coward]

Heck, that's very reasonable for non-PC hardware. Think about this, if you bought that same stuff for an Apple Mac it would set you back about $1000.

Re:Preorder at playstation.com for $199.99

[Anonymous Coward]

I hate to inform you chief, but that's ALL PC hardware. Most of it is off-the-shelf hardware, except for the ethernet card, which uses a common chipset (I forget which one).

Re:Preorder at playstation.com for $199.99

[toopc]

Heck, that's very reasonable for non-PC hardware. Think about this, if you bought that same stuff for an Apple Mac it would set you back about $1000.

$1000? Is that Canadian dollars or something? Head on over to pricewatch and you pick this stuff up for under $150 without even trying. A USB keyboard & Mouse, a cable, an IDE hard drive, and ethernet card does not cost $1000.

Do you honestly believe Sony is giving you $1000 worth of hardware for just $200? Is this the same Sony that does stuff like this?

Re:Preorder at playstation.com for $199.99

[qurob]

Throw in a Playstation, and you've hit $500

You can build a badass PC for that cost, and you'll be able to run Windows on it. And, it'd be WAY faster than your 32MB ram (or whatever) PS2

Re:Preorder at playstation.com for $199.99

[GTRacer]

Yeah, but with over 10 million PS2 already in end-users'hands in the three major territories, there's a huge number of ready-to-go code monkeys.

Anyone really into Linux probably doesn't need this. Anyone really into games prolly has the PS2 or wouldn't mind one. Get a union of about .1 percent and you've got 10k users ponying up 2 c-notes apiece.

I was going to preorder mine, despite not knowing jack about C porgramming, but I bought a Japanese PS2 to go with my North American one. But hopefully the kits won't sell out and I'll still be able to get one ordered before May...

GTRacer
- What's this button do, again?

Re:Preorder at playstation.com for $199.99

[qurob]

There's 10X the PC's, and a more available, cheaper Linux solution.

It's VERY nice to have, but it's not going to inspire a renaissance of coding.

But if it gets just a couple more people into the industry... I guess its a good thing

Time warp back into 1984 where people typed in BASIC code from computer magazines to play APPLE II games

2240 DATA 3,3,2,,1,3,2,3,5,,,2,,2,,2,,2
2250 DATA 3,2,2,3,,4,,5,,,2,,2,,2,,2
2260 DATA 3,5,,,2,,2,,2,,4,3,4,2,1,2

Those were the days!

Update - PS2 linux stalled due to legal troubles..

[Hater's Leaving, The]

They had to lay off 85% of the testers due to them being under 18.

Or is that another story?

THL
(erm, sorry?)

Re:Update - PS2 linux stalled due to legal trouble

[SuiteSisterMary]

Never ceases to amaze me how many people just love to use the law when it suits them (Oh, say, anti-trust laws, or the copyright laws that give the GPL it's legal weight) but cast aside the ones that make just as much sense (like, say, child protection labour laws) when it doesn't suit them. No, wait. It did cease to amaze me a long time ago. I live in fear of the day when the unwashed masses suddenly realize that they outnumber the legal authorities.

Linux-only hard drive

[Mooset]

If you really want one of these it might not hurt to pre-order it on Sony's site!

They do have an interesting warning on there. The Linux kit's hard drive will not work with other games. So you'll have to buy a second hard drive for Final Fantasy 11 and swap them out!

DROOL ...

[ProfMoriarty]

Beowulf'ed PS2s ...

I guess its Kernel-Hackin' time ...

Google Cached Link

[NOT-2-QUICK]

SLASHDOT + PS2 + LINUX = oreillynet.com slashdotted

The google cache of the site is here

Now...who can honestly say they are not in love with and sexually attracted to google!!! :-)

Open Source Development Kits for PS2

[taya0001]

Anyone know if their is anything like this in the works for the PS2. I know their are a few for the dreamcast.......

Already /. More on This at ......

[LuxuryYacht]

Linux for Playstation 2 Community

Pre-Order Linux for PS-2

Re:Already /. More on This at ......

[LuxuryYacht]

The bout between Sony, Nintendo, and Microsoft with their video game consoles could become even more heated when Linux enters the fray this spring. Sony will sell online the "Linux (for PlayStation 2)" Release 1.0 in the U.S. in May 2002. (A European version will come out that month, too, and the Japanese version earlier in April.)

<script></script>
This kit will include a Linux distribution on DVD that runs on the PS2 hardware, additional software, documentation, a 40GB hard drive, an Ethernet adapter, a USB mouse, a USB keyboard, and a computer monitor cable. The package will cost $200. (The PlayStation 2 is sold separately, though.)

While Linux has been brought to other consoles (such as the SEGA Dreamcast) by hobbyist programmers in the Linux community, this is the first distribution officially released, sold, and supported by a major hardware manufacturer for its game console. Since the demonstration of the kit in January this year at LinuxWorld, over four thousand people have registered at the Linux for PlayStation 2 Community Web site. The site offers discussion forums and file space to help Linux PS2 developers coordinate with one another on projects.

Besides the sheer geek thrill of being able to do it, there's a practical reason for running Linux on a PlayStation 2. A lot of people expressing interest in this kit are hobbyists looking to gain experience in developing for a major game console. The Linux PS2 distribution makes home-brew game programming and experimentation on the PS2 platform affordable for such individuals. The only other alternative is to become a professional, licensed developer and lease a PS2 development kit from Sony--and the professional license and development kit cost many thousands of dollars.

[Items in the Release 1.0 kit.]
The items that come with the "Linux (for PlayStation 2)" Release 1.0 kit.
(Almost) Full access to the PS2's capabilities

The PlayStation 2-specific libraries will be released under the LGPL; there are no proprietary licenses involved. Sony's distribution of Linux is based on Kondara Linux, which in turn is based on Red Hat Linux. The documentation with this kit will give all the same information about the PS2 hardware that Sony provides its licensed game developers (but it won't give access to the system's anti-piracy mechanisms). This will include full details on the PS2's proprietary Emotion Engine core instruction set, the Graphic Synthesizer, and the Vector Processing Units. "The idea was to simply provide a functional and complete distribution of Linux on the PlayStation 2, while also giving access to the PlayStation 2's unique hardware," says Sarah Ewen, who works for Sony as one of its Linux engineers responsible for supporting the kit.

Related Reading
[Physics for Game Developers]

Physics for Game Developers
By David M. Bourg
Table of Contents
Index
Author's Article
Sample Chapter

Those interested in buying and playing around with the PS2 Linux kit should be aware of some things before getting it: Access to the PS2's DVD drive is restricted so that only official PlayStation discs can be read; and CD-Rs and DVD-R discs won't work in the drive. However, the USB ports on the PS2 are standard, so some USB external CD and DVD drive models that are supported under Linux could be used with this kit.

In terms of programming, the following graphics libraries are provided: libSDL (a fast, 2D graphics library), mesa, and ps2gl (a simplified GL clone, which makes use of the PlayStation 2's hardware). Ewen says, with these tools and enough effort on a programmer's part, it is possible to create games with graphics that are comparable to those of commercial PS2 games: "So the limitations really are few. You have almost unfettered access to the [graphics] hardware. There is nothing stopping programmers from coding 'right to the metal' using the Linux kit."

As for the portability of code from Linux on a PC system to the PS2, most applications written on a PC will compile on the PlayStation 2 with little or no modification. The significant difference is having to pass the --host option to the configure script. The kit supports languages typical to a Linux distribution, like C, C++, Perl, Python, Ruby, and Tcl. The only one missing is Java, although Kaffe has been ported by others in the Linux PS2 community.

"Porting between Linux on the PC and Linux on the PS2 is very easy. Both the PC and PS2 use the same endianness, the same word sizes, et cetera," says Sam Lantinga, a software engineer at Blizzard Entertainment (makers of the Diablo and Warcraft game franchises). With the kit, he ported to the PS2 his Simple DirectMedia Layer, a cross-platform library he created for handling access to graphics and sound, that is mainly used for helping to develop Linux games. "The only kind of code that I can think of that wouldn't run on the PS2, if it ran on a PC, would be either very memory-intensive applications or applications like WINE that require an x86 CPU core."

[Screen shot...click for full-size view.]
X Windows running on the PlayStation 2 with the "Linux (for PlayStation 2)" kit. (Click for full-size view.)
Open source, open possibilities over the competition?

For Sony, there is no plan to make this kit a significant revenue source. The company won't be advertising it through the usual methods since it doesn't want to confuse consumers who have no interest in Linux or programming. "We're definitely not trying to enter the desktop PC market [with the Linux PS2 kit]," says Ewen, who points out that Sony already sells its own brand of PCs.

Regardless, there could be benefits for the company if the PS2 is seen as more than just a game console. Lantinga predicts that this kit, with its inclusion of an Ethernet adapter and hard drive, could spur the development of online applications and services, things that could give the PS2 platform an edge over Microsoft's Xbox. "Linux is the natural choice for Sony to leverage the vast amount of non-Microsoft expertise available around the world," says Lantinga.

Then there's the advantage for Sony that more games will inevitably appear for the PS2, thanks to this kit. Lantinga easily ported Maelstrom to the PlayStation 2 and played it with the console's game controllers on a television set. "That was very cool. Any other 2D game [made with Simple DirectMedia Layer] that uses 640x480 or lower video resolution should run just fine on the PS2," he says. "So I expect that when the Linux kit ships in the U.S., there will be a number of games almost immediately available for it. It should be fun."

Howard Wen is a freelance writer who has contributed frequently to O'Reilly Network, and written for Salon.com, Playboy.com and Wired, among others.

Re:Already /. More on This at ......

[BoRoG]

This is just a bunch of stuff from the article put together.

Re:Already /. More on This at ......

[LuxuryYacht]

This is the entire article posted here, since it was already /.ed

And what does this mean?

[Anonymous Coward]

General Protection Fault 0000
CPU: 0
EIP: 0010:[<c01d2acd>]
EFLAGS: 00010282
EAX:00000006 EBX: c4b9392c ECX: 00000006 EDX: 000000d8
ESI: c1847012 EDI: c4100c68 EBP: c1847012 ESP: c7e912e50
DS: 0018 ES: 0078 SS: 0018
Process kpnpbios (PID: 2, STACKPAGE=c7e9f000)
STACK: c4b9392c 04000001 c4100c00 000000e6
c8883265 c4b9392c c4100c00 0000001f
000080e6 0000ec00 00000015 c4100d40
c3052000 00000800 c30527ff 00000246
c5eec794 04000001 00000005 0000e401
c88829af c4100c00 c4100c00 00000020
CALL TRACE: [<c8883265>] [<88829af>] [<c010851a>] [<c0108698>]
[<c0218eba>]
[<c0130078>] [<cb680018>] [<c01b3fef?] [<c0116390>]
[<c01b41f3>]
[<c0105000>]

[<c01056e6>] [<c01b4180>]

Code f3 a6 0f 92 c0 0f 97 c2 38 c2 0f 95 c0 fe c0 88 43 6a eb

<0> Kernel Panic: Aiee, Killing Interupt Handler
In Interupt Handler - Not Syncing

Re:And what does this mean?

[Anonymous Coward]

Oh my. I hate to have to break it to you ...

Your computer has ANTHRAX!!

Re:And what does this mean?

[icebeing]

Your X-box acting up? ;^)

Sounds like a crappy bios to me.

Hackable consoles

[olman]

You're forgetting that the console is not the product. Far from it. The real product is the license fees they're getting from each and every game produced for it. And, of course, tidy revenue from all of the extra doo-dahs like feedback racing wheels etc.

So, you give away the console for free, or at least pretty close to what it's costing for you to build one and cart it over to the shelf.. So that you can start carting money to the bank from all the games and stuff people buy for your console.

The decision to limit what you can do with your cool linux port is probably due to beancounter paranoia. The same reason you cannot use SCART RGB output for DVD playback. RGB spec doesn't allow for Macrovision, so we must not support it. Anyone with half a brain concerned about people taping DVDs to VCRs? I don't think so. But a corporate beancounter doesn't exactly fit into the "half a brain" category.

What's the point?

[Smirks]

Ok, so you can now buy and run linux on your PS2, but seriously, why? What is the point of doing this? Are you able to do something above and beyond what you could do on your standard linux workstation?

Re:What's the point?

[Anonymous Coward]

Are you able to do something above and beyond what you could do on your standard linux workstation?

Yeah, you can play PS2 games.

After a reboot, natch, but try *that* on your Standard Linux Workstation! ;)

Re:What's the point?

[ryants]

Ok, so you can now buy and run linux on your PS2, but seriously, why? What is the point of doing this?

It's kind of a Zen thing: if you have to ask, you won't understand the answer.

Re:What's the point?

[CMiYC]

Read the article, it gives the #1 reason. It gives people a chance to program for a console. Sure its going to be very much like programming for Linux on a PC, but not exactly alike. There is an inherent challenge in dealing with the limitations of a console meanwhile exploiting its strengths.

Re:What's the point?

[Anonymous Coward]

"Ok, so you can now buy and run linux on your PS2, but seriously, why? What is the point of doing this? Are you able to do something above and beyond what you could do on your standard linux workstation?"

Yeah - parallel programming on closed proprietary hardware designed to push polygons... Like as if you didn't know that right?

A Preview of the Potential Evils of CBDTPA

[Ogerman]

From the FAQ on the playstation2-linux.com page:

The PlayStation 2 contains a subsystem for operating peripherals and audio including the SPU2 (Sound Processing Unit), the IOP, the HDD, the DVD drive, controllers, memory cards, USB and other peripherals. The hardware specification for these units is not disclosed. The Runtime Environment provided on DISC 1 includes binary software device drivers for controlling these hardware units. Source code for the Runtime Environment is proprietary and will not be disclosed. However, DISC 2 contains Linux device drivers (with source code) which show how to access all these devices through the Runtime Environment interface. This gives the developer access to the functionality of all the devices but not the complete hardware specification.

If CBDTPA passes, this is precisely the kind of scenario we'd have on all PC hardware. Sure, you could still use Linux with it, but you'll have to use proprietary binary drivers to access any I/O device. Replace "Runtime Environment" in the above paragraph with "government certified anti-copying device" and you've got a near perfect preview of CBDTPA. And of course, note that "hardware specifications are not disclosed." In other words, if you reverse engineer a device.. say a USB scanner.. to write a Linux driver, you'd be in violation of the proposed law. Only the manufacturer would be able to legally provide the drivers to access their hardware. And we all know the wonderful track record of PC hardware manufacturers in supporting alternative operating systems. I for one, will not support any company who produces proprietary hardware in the name of "anti-piracy."

Warning: PS2 Linux insulates a lot from the system

[Ryu2]

First off, you must boot off of Sony's bootloader disc. The code on the bootloader, which runs before the kernel gets loaded, is basically a NT-like hardware abstraction layer that prevents you from getting direct register-level access to the GS (graphics/sound coprocessor) chip, the DVD CSS mechanism on the DVD-ROM (so no CSS-supported DVD player possible in Linux), memory card (Linux uses a special memory card format different than normal Playstation games, probably to prevent you from getting at and modifying saved game data), and possibly others as well.

The VGA box is only supported under Linux as well -- a shame, as Dreamcast has a VGA box which is actually supported by most of its commercial titles, and really makes them look better.

Shades of Coleco Adam?

[3vi1]

Don't get me wrong, this is a really cool 'toy'. That's no flame to Linux, just what I expect from experience:

Does anyone remember the Coleco Adam module?

Do you remember the Intellivision ECS module?

Do you remember the Atari 2600 Piggyback module?

Remember Atari 2600 BASIC?

I do... and trust me: They were all cool 'toys'. I sincerely doubt that much anything useful can be done with this kit, as long as the stipulation remains that you must have the kit to run anything created with it.

I really like SDL. I've submitted bug fixes for mouse and sound issues in the past, and Sam always responded quickly and enthusiastically. SDL really makes 2D programming easy. We'll have to see how good of an OpenGL implementation the kit has before we can venture out of the 2D world. At least Atani or I can now port Bliss32 to it. :)

I do like the 40GB HD though - beats the hell out of the 8GB one in my X-Box. Can I start hoping against hope that MS lets us do the same thing with our X-Box's... er... legally? :)

If any kids are out there, thinking about getting into programming via this module, I would warn you off that path. This is just Linux for the PS2 - it's not a 'Games Creation Kit'. I can't see how it would be any easier to learn programming with this kit than on a real PC.

-J

Re:Shades of Coleco Adam?

[Anonymous Coward]

Writing games that are portable (via SDL) on the PS2 is absolutely pointless. All the PC-port games for PS2 suck!

The PS2 is a very different beast - parallel programming! Hello?

OpenGL? Why!? Down to the metal - the PS2 Linux kit is for people who a) want to write games, and b) people who want to learn about parallel programming...

If you don't want to do either - don't by a PS2 Linux kit - buy an XboX.

A totally open source game console...

[downix]

already exists. In 1999, Hasbro, fresh from it's purchase of the Atari trademarks and intellectual property, opened up the Atari Jaguar from all patents, copyrights, and similar materials.

Yes folks, a totally public domain game console.

You can even get the code to produce your own custom chips from the Jaguar, called Tom and Jerry.

But, what's the point? Open source does not make it excellent source. PS2 having Linux does not make it a monster. It's just another feature for the PS2 to exploit.

sweet

[Anonymous Coward]

this is so going to be my set-top that plays all my divx stuff

PS2 Linux is *not* for mainstream

[sph]

Most people seem to forget the target audience of the PS2 Linux. It's *not* for desktop or server use, definitely not for average gamer or even typical Linux hacker. It's not for mainstream in any form, if it was it would be available outside of the net as well. It won't be very supported officially, it's supposed to be community-supported. PS2-games and DVDs won't work in Linux. Software made on PS2 Linux can't be run on another PS2 without Linux. Bootable CD/DVDs can't be burned even on PC, because PS2 won't boot from burned discs (at least without hardware mods).

It's for people who already know Linux and possibly programming, and want to play with PS2 hardware, try what it's really made of. Documentation and development tools for processor, vector units and graphics synth are included. And I'm going to get it, because I'm very interested in that very nice piece of hardware.

I think it's quite a smart move from Sony. PS2 has always been criticized as being a very difficult platform to develop to. PS2 Linux will make it possible for a couple of thousand (no, it won't sell much more) hobbyists, and even game developers without previous PS2 experience, to familiarize themselves with PS2 hardware. It won't brew a large community of home-made PS2 games, but it may give a good start for a few of PS2 coders.

Re:PS2 Linux is *not* for mainstream

[ZhuLien]

I think a lot of people miss the point. When computers started to become popular in the late 70s through to the 80s, the people they were popular with were hobbyists. There was never a mainstream during these times and we had a lot of great choice and fun with the variety of computers available. These days, unless you are a collector or into one of the less-mainstream brands (ie: Amiga, BeOS, 8bit OSs or even Linux) the PS2 probably wouldn't appeal to you. As with previous Consoles/Computers (SG1000, SC3000, CD32, Intellivision and probably many more) the PS2 fills in a gap for people who want an alternative *hobby/desktop/home* computer. Sure, consoles aren't optimally designed for general purpose, but not many general purpose computers are designed for games - yet they seem to do their job. I am sure a PS/2 with Linux will site nicely on my desk along side my Amiga4000/WindozeBox/AmstradCPC etc as another cool computer to work on/play with - heck, can probably get rid of the WindozeBox finally to make room for it! It's not *just* the OS that counts, but the fact of not being a horrible clone PC!

Re:PS2 Linux is *not* for mainstream

[Anonymous Coward]

Here here! Finally someone who gets it!

yeah...

[Anonymous Coward]

but i wonder if you can run Lin.... ahhh damnit nevermind...

PC is better I think

[CanadaDave]

If we can have the ability to plug video cards into TVs (which I think this ability already exists, I'm thinking S-Video is probably the easiest way, I'm just not sure if any video cards have S-Video adapters, All-in-Wonder maybe?) then it seems like having a PC attached to the TV is pretty cool. Then you can play all your favourite PC games (downloaded from Kazaa or paid for). PS/2 games are too expensive and tough to copy right now. And once they are copyable, someone will probably have an emulator going for Linux anyways. It just seems to me that a PC is a better all-round solution to all of this. The main reason I think, is that I can keep plaing my Windows games (NHL2002, DiabloII, etc...) instead of having to fork over more money for games that will only run on PS/2.

the cd-r problem

[Anonymous Coward]

mod'ers, listen up here.

the ps2 has standard usb ports. you can get cd readers, and writers for usb. im not sure about dvd readers and writers, though.

you just cant use the _built-in_ reader.

geeze, people :P

-brady

Yaroze

[3vi1]

I forgot to mention one (well probably more, if you count the Oddysey 2, that Astrocade module, and some really obscure stuff): Yaroze.

I played around with Yaroze on the original PS1. It was indeed cool.

But (there's always a but)... it really wasn't good for much of anything beyond making little demo's or really simple games. I can't blame Sony: you can't expect to buy a *real* developers kit for the price of Yaroze.

The sad thing is that I like the Yaroze concept *more* than PS2 Linux, because at least it was a tool directly concentrated on one thing: programming. This PS2 Linux is all over the map when you think about running other Linux apps.

I don't know how useful having a whole OS on the console would be unless you're a grandma who only needs a PC for occasional e-mailing.... and how many grandma's have their own PS2's?

Maybe it's just me...

Don't see the point? Open your eyes ....

[binaryDigit]

Think about it, how many PS2 are out there? This is a potentially awesome opportunity for someone to produce something very cool and very successful. Follow me on this, picture the PS2 as Sony's answer to Apples Digital Media Hub. You can hook your digital cam (or memory stick of course) to the thing and look at and edit pictures on your PS2 via USB/FireWire. Who needs a internet appliance. Just use your PS2 to take those pictures you took and email it to your buddies. Or have it setup a web page to share with your buddies. Use your PS2 to demo albums or DVD's or games and then order them online.

All of the above would be possible without the user having to have a hd, so you'd have access to the entire population of PS2 users. If Sony can properly market the hd (or ship PS3 with one), then you start being able to do things like editing your movies via FireWire (of course burning them onto DVD's would be an area of contention with Sony, but I'm sure they'll think of some proprietary solution ;)

People are forgetting that just because the current incarnation of LinuxPS2 is restricted, it doesn't mean that they can't open it up more if the apps being developed would benifit them. Also keep in mind that they can come with a distro that boots from the cd/dvd and uses the memory card as swap space (i.e. a small tight app deployment distro). This is even easier if they decide to use larger capacity memory cards (or switch over to the memory stick).

This seems to me an exciting and rare opportunity to A) get in early on a "new" platform (i.e. hardware+software) B) have that platform have a huge potential audience right off the bat (vs praying that this new platform has more than a few hundred users ala Be).

Gentlemen, start your editors ....

Link fix

[3vi1]

Could someone mod me [-5, dumbass w/broken link]? :)

It should have been: Bliss32.

Sorry about that!

Make games? Hell, I'll play em

[WankersRevenge]

Why make games on the PS2 when you can play them - aka - am I the only fool who wants this so I can play MAME arcade games in my living room? Talk about an adolescent dream being realized here....

Would be great for watching digital TV

[mocm]

With the USB ports working under Linux and a decent MPEG decoder optimized for the PS2 graphics hardware, it would be great to watch digital TV with one of those Haupauge USB DVB receivers. The drivers for them are coming along (no thanks to Haupauge) and it should be possible to adapt mplayer or xine for playback. Then you would have a nice STB which isn't as noisy as a PC. Get Java running and even MHP might be possible.
Even if it doesn't work with the USB receivers you could still stream it to your living room and put your PC into the basement.

Just a stupid gimmic

[Anonymous Coward]

The fact that marketing people can sell marginal products to geeks never ceases to amaze me.

<marketing> Here is a new shiny object to blow $200.00 on.</marketing>

Spend the $450-$500 on a pc and load your own damn linux distro.

Huper

Wow now we can play snes games on PS2

[MeNeXT]

If the press release is accurate we can play nintendo games on this thing....

I wonder what nintendo has to say about it???

the sega dreamcast offers better value

[Anonymous Coward]

First off their is a linux version that runs on it and it is FREE, secondley it plays vcd's and svcd's as well as mp's and ogg's. Thirdly there is a broadband ethernet adapter(which is impossible to get) and them rascals are snagging serial cards made to work with it as a "piracy device".

Makes you wonder exactely "how much" they think we should spend, and how the government is colluding with the industry to maintain both of their interest.

Re: VIDEO != RENDER

[lugonn]

The video system DOES NOT do the final output renderings. That is what a CPU does. The video system displays a "preview" of what your rendered scene will look like.

True, the previews/hardware have gotten better over the years to where you can see textures/bump mapping/some lighting in the scene without rendering, but it is a far cry from a nice software rendered scene.

The only way to speed rendering is to use more CPUs not video cards.


Will Render For Food!

no sense of performance

[2ms]

This might be cool or might just be like a lot of trouble to develop for platform equivalent performance-wise to a PI 166 with video max resolution 640x480 or something.

Wish someone would provide at least ballpark assessment of performance of PS2 relative to other linux platforms. I wouldn't be surprised if it was basically same as Dreamcast powerwise.

Re:no sense of performance

[Mr. Spock]

Depending on what you measure the PS2 is either faster than any modern PC (FLOPS), or about as fast as a two-year-old intel box (desktop applications)... But it's defiantely a good box for graphics. The max resolution is 1280x1024 true color at 75 hz. Not bad for a box that is intended to work on a TV.

Re:no sense of performance

[Anonymous Coward]

"Wish someone would provide at least ballpark assessment of performance of PS2 relative to other linux platforms."

What is a 'linux platform'? Heh... I don't think you get it, at all...

The PS2 is not a desktop - it's a game machine - it pushes pixels and polygons - that's what it was designed to do.

You can not compare a PS2 to a PC - in any way - totally different designs.

PS2 = SMID.

Xpilot in my lounge?

[zevans]

On my widescreen TV?

I'd buy that for a dollar. Or even two hundred dollars.

Mmmm, PS2 based HL-server & maybe UT 2003

[sgtsanity]

This is great. I hope I'll be able to run a Half-Life server on a PS2. That would be a lot cheaper than buying a whole new computer. Also, Epic Games has a habit of releasing Linux versions of their Unreal games. They've already said that they're going to release a dedicated server for Linux, with a possible client depending on Linux ubiquity. Plus, UT 2003 is quite scalable so we'll be able to play it, no matter how fast the PS2 is. We could also network several PS2's together to create a super-computer that plays UT 2003. For the price of a computer I could network at least 4 PS2s together. More, if the price goes down.

Re:Warning: PS2 Linux insulates a lot from the sys

[_am99_]

Hi there,

Do you know if the VGA box the only output that is supported in Linux?

Or in otherwords, can I run an X-Windows session through my TV?

Thanks.

Re:Update - PS2 linux stalled due to legal trouble

[Anonymous Coward]

(badly imitated canadian accent)
They'd be screwed, eh?

Wow!

[Anonymous Coward]

A slashdot story that is actually positive!

Yay!

[Anonymous Coward]

Now I can make a cluster of PS/2 and get that Maya demo version and yes! I'll make a near-reality high-quality movie in this extremely fast rendering hardware... I'll get to be the first, like those Final Fantasy guys!

Oops, wait a minute...

IS THERE HOPE FOR LOKI?

[Anonymous Coward]

Too bad Loki are closed. Sony should have bought them.

My Experience with PS2 Linux

[edyu]

I tried out PS2 Linux in Game Developer's Conference last week. Here are two points that are probably already addressed by other posts:
1. The PS2 only has 32 Megs of RAM, so when you really want to use it as a general PC, it is VERY slow. I was running WindowMaker, a MP3 player (I think it was XMMS), and xpdf to read the documentation. The mouse and xpdf was crawling whenever I click on the next page button.
2. Although you cannot boot from a custom DVD, you can recompile the kernel and store it on the memory card.

A toy?

[Anonymous Coward]

Hold on! Your telling me these *play* "stations" are only toys, and not meant for serious work?

Sorry, I don't buy it mister.

-Sarcastic Asshole

cat /proc/cpu

[MrJones]

Someone knows anything about:
$ cat /proc/cpu
$ cat /proc/meminfo
on the PS2?

Amazing.. why not Dreamcast?

[frohike]

It really never ceases to amaze me how people talk about the PS2 Linux kit as if it's the only way they'll ever get a chance to develop for a real console.

Well, for about $120 worth of hardware (and that includes the console itself, which is still capable of playing tons of great games) you can buy yourself a "Dreamcast devel kit", complete with a BSD licensed toolkit (see SourceForge link), an active hobbyist community, etc. Oh and did I mention, unfettered access to the vast majority of the hardware and to-the-metal performance? How about the ability to burn a CD of your game for anyone who owns a Dreamcast to play it?

Of course, I'm a bit biased, being in charge of the development of said software kit. ;-) So for fairness, I'll also mention the DC Linux port to the Dreamcast, also with a decent amount of hardware and lib support now.

I'm interested in getting a PS2 Linux kit too, but I just want people to be aware that there are other ways as well.

Re:Amazing.. why not Dreamcast?

[Rezell]

why not Dreamcast? I would not be willing to spend $120 to have "unfettered access" to a dead console.

Re:Warning: PS2 Linux insulates a lot from the sys

[rcs1000]

Not strictly true. A DVD work-around has already been produced (search on Google, I can't remember the URL) for the (admittedly beta) Japanese versions of the Linux kit.

Hrmmm.... Use this as a boot strap?

[RyuuzakiTetsuya]

"Those interested in buying and playing around with the PS2 Linux kit should be aware of some things before getting it: Access to the PS2's DVD drive is restricted so that only official PlayStation discs can be read; and CD-Rs and DVD-R discs won't work in the drive. However, the USB ports on the PS2 are standard, so some USB external CD and DVD drive models that are supported under Linux could be used with this kit."

Check this, use a sufficiently fast USB/Firewire DVD/IDE adapter(Supported under linux of course), boot to Linux, throw an import or "backup" in there and try to execute code, would it work?

If some did develop a game using this...

[Bakajin]

How easy would it be to port it to a 'native' PS2 game, one that could be sold commercially? Or if not sold, maybe Sony could distribute it for low cost to push sales and I could get some fame as a game developer that way.... any thoughts? I just don't want develop games that so few people could end up playing.

Re:If some did develop a game using this...

[Blackwulf]

How easy would it be to port it to a 'native' PS2 game, one that could be sold commercially? Or if not sold, maybe Sony could distribute it for low cost to push sales and I could get some fame as a game developer that way.... any thoughts? I just don't want develop games that so few people could end up playing.

I believe (key word, don't quote me on this) that Sony won't be looking to distribute your work unless you pay the high licensing fee. The PS2 Linux game platform is for HOBBYISTS, who want to get their feet wet. I'm not sure how "famous" you'd get developing games using the PS2 Linux Kit. Only people with the Linux Kit would be able to play your games. I'm personally using it more as a learning experience and a resume builder. (Hey look, I can use the PS2GL! Hire me!)

Re:If some did develop a game using this...

[Bakajin]

If sony won't distribute free games for a small (though I think it would be in their interested), how hard would it be to port the games if you did cough up the licensing fee.

Re:If some did develop a game using this...

[Blackwulf]

Shouldn't be that hard, since I'm pretty sure that code written with PS2 Linux use the same hardware calls as the professional dev stations. The professional dev stations use Linux themselves, albeit a more souped up version.

Wait just a minute ----

[qurob]

The other posts I'm reading say that you'll be denied this low-level hardware access you speak of.

So which is it?

Shielded by a HAL, or knee-deep in the emotion engine (tm)??

Re:Wait just a minute ----

[icebeing]

I just read the article...

You'll be knee-deep in the EE for sure...your access will be limited to the removable storage peripherals (CD, DVD, etc...) so that you won't make your own game cd's. But, it seems you COULD plug an external CD burner off the USB port.

With an ethernet, you could still archive your stuff on CD...just on another computer.

Re:Wait just a minute ----

[qurob]

Seems like we won't know until it comes out. In THEORY if we have the source we can remove all the limitations....

Re:Wait just a minute ----

[sph]

The other posts I'm reading say that you'll be denied this low-level hardware access you speak of.

Main processors (including MIPS core & FPU, vector units), graphics synth, DMA controller and MPEG decoder will be available, with specs and programming examples. So, the heart of the Emotion Engine is all yours. However, there is a run-time environment (RTE) that will handle other stuff, like sound processor, IO processor, DVD, hard disk, controllers, memory card, USB etc. They can't be accessed directly, but there are kernel device drivers, and the RTE API is available. On the downside, there's no firewire support in RTE, at least yet.

These protected parts include of course all the proprietary and copy-protection related stuff. The actual documentation for other parts should be the very same that official registered developers have.

For a lot of other stuff about PS2 Linux read the FAQ.

Re:Wait just a minute ----

[jweatherley]

In THEORY if we have the source we can remove all the limitations....

Problem is you don't have all the source. Yes, you have the complete Linux source but PS-Linux is running on a hardware abstraction layer - it's the source to the HAL you'll need to remove the limitations and Sony aren't handing that out.

I think your forgetting DivX ;)

[VoodooRay]

I think DivX:) movies, MAME and SNES on my TV with control pad is a great reason to buy this kit.

Re:I think your forgetting DivX ;)

[Treeluvinhippy]

I think DivX:) movies, MAME and SNES on my TV with control pad is a great reason to buy this kit.

My Ati Rage Fury Pro does the same thing for a lot less.

Re:Hrmmm.... Use this as a boot strap?

[3vi1]

No, it wouldn't work. They've already said that you won't be able to boot a PS2 game after Linux is loaded without completely resetting the console.

Re:Make games? Hell, I'll play em

[chuckwagon99]

This is exactly why I'm looking forward to this, and can't stand all this fighting about HAL's and what not. I want a PS2 that runs Linux, with MAME, Nesticle, etc ports. With 40GB, I can have every game for all of the old classic consoles/arcades at my fingertips. Playing on a PS2, with a nice Dual Shock controller. This is the beauty of this kit, you can finally throw out the NES. Think about it, slap a little menu up front, and play any game you want. That's my plan, at least.

Console = high end Mac with software support

[Inferno666]

Doesn't giving a console an O/S and all the functions of a PC completely negate the point of the console in the first place. This is just a step in the direction of the mac, the way i see it the PS2 is just a high quality mac that doesn't have a monitor hardwired to it. Consoles have no upgradability, mac... same thing. The only thing that is really going to seperate consoles from PC's soon is the fact that they aren't upgradable, and they are more stable because programmers only have to code for one piece of hardware. But already bariers like that are breaking down, i mean they already have seperated speaker plugs to take advantage of 3D sound, they have the intranet port, keyboard and mice. Eventually it will just evolve into a full out upgradable PC and all of the people that like consoles cause of their simplicity will either riot in outrage or be in denial that it's of equal complexity as a PC but less cost effective.

not for development- for fun

[Anonymous Coward]

i dont know about you people but i think that being able to carry around a ps2 with 40 gb worth of divx movies and mp3s on it would come in handy. plug into a tv and you have a dvd player, mp3 player, internet terminal, and what is better than playing tuxracer on the bigscreen? im getting it as a toy- besides, linux doesnt like my pc for some odd reason.

Some info

[Judecca]

Sam Lantinga, the Blizzard Developer, is formerly of Loki Software.

He's also the creator of libSDL, which is NOT a 2d graphics library. Its a "Simple Direct Media Layer" which handles I/O to video, audio and control devices, among other things.

libSDL.org

Re:Drive will only read "official" PlayStation dis

[zeno_2]

Just put the ps2 on your home network and use your pc's cdrom drive =).

screenshot

[mirko]

The screen shot was taken on April 29...
I guess it is around one year old, so, hopefully, loads of progress have been made (unless this is not "news" but only "stuff that could matter" ;-)

Re:Drive will only read "official" PlayStation dis

[Anonymous Coward]

Ahh! The joys of NFS.

Any links ?

[Anonymous Coward]

I didn't know about Jaguar being public domain :)
Any links about projects developed ?

Thanks,

fabio

Re:Warning: PS2 Linux insulates a lot from the sys

[Fnord]

Yes you can use the TV but only after its been booted up the first time through VGA. After installation you can configure it to use the TV.

Re:Drive will only read "official" PlayStation dis

[Anonymous Coward]

dunno what you guys are doin but the ps2's ive used all read cdr no prob at all.

The Jag is Open?

[iainl]

Really? I didn't know this. Does anyone know if this has been used to build an emulator of some kind? I've never seen a Jag emu, and while the basic Jag hardware is easy to find, I've never found a CD unit to get the VLM working.

From the FAQ

[Blackwulf]

I actually wrote a long dissertation about this, and then thought about how awful it would be if I was wrong.

I was wrong, too. How awful.

Here's straight from the FAQ:

What are the differences between the Linux (for PlayStation 2) development environment and that used by professional game developers?

Professional game developers get access to a special version of the PlayStation 2 hardware which contains more memory and extra debug facilities. This hardware, known as the T10K, is a lot more expensive than a commercial PlayStation 2 and is only available to licensed game developers. If you are seriously interested in becoming a licensed game developer, please see this link for North America and this link for Europe and Australasia . In addition to the T10K, licensed game developers get additional support which is part of the reason that the T10K is so much more expensive than a PlayStation 2 console.

In terms of access to the PlayStation 2 hardware and libraries, Linux (for PlayStation 2) offers an almost identical set of functionality to that provided to licensed game developers. In fact the system manuals provided with the Linux kit have identical content to 6 of the 7 system manuals provided to licensed developers. The missing information which is provided to licensed developers and not to users of Linux (for PlayStation 2) describes the hardware that controls the CD/DVD-ROM, SPU2 Audio chip and other IO peripheral control hardware. This hardware functionality is still available for use with the linux kit through a software interface called the Runtime Environment.

The final major difference between the two is the operating system. A licensed developer creates games for the PlayStation 2 which use a light weight proprietary operating system kernel. This kernel offers much less functionality than Linux, but has the advantage of offering slightly faster access to the hardware.

In most cases, it is possible to get almost the same performance with Linux (for PlayStation 2) and the professional game development tools.

Re:From the FAQ

[ProfMoriarty]

Hmmm ... I'm wrong ... how awful ...

Nah ... not really ...

Been wrong in the past ... will be wrong again in the future ...

Re:Make games? Hell, I'll play em

[Anonymous Coward]

You can do this already.

DC Emulation

You can get a dreamcast for 50 bucks and play metroid, mario brothers, contra and the rest to your heart's delight. Granted the SNES emulator is still a little slow.

Re:Hrmmm.... Use this as a boot strap?

[RyuuzakiTetsuya]

I was thinking more along the lines of actually running the executeable from inside Linux, of course, you'd have to figur eout how to strip down the kernel enough to make it do just that.

Re:Warning: PS2 Linux insulates a lot from the sys

[Mr. Spock]

The code on the bootloader, which runs before the kernel gets loaded, is basically a NT-like hardware abstraction layer that prevents you from getting direct register-level access to the GS (graphics/sound coprocessor) chip

That's not entirely true. The GS is the Graphics Synthesizer, and has nothing to do with sound. It's completely accessable. The SPU, for sound, has an interface. You probably want to check out the faq.

No not dead at all

[Anonymous Coward]

An architecture is only as dead as its community (the people using it)!

You can get a Dreamcast for something like $50 without keyboard and mouse. It's a wonderful piece of hardware and it's got strong followings on the net.

Consoles aren't my thing (find the games too childish/boring) but I still have a Dreamcast coz it makes a wicked little device I can hook up to the TV and network with the rest of the PCs in our house.

A big, and hitherto neglected, problem with PCs is one of ergonomics. They're big, overly geared towards obscenely high clock CPUs and less towards general functionality, ergonomics and pleasure of use.