Slashdot Mirror
Red Hat Takes Aim at SuSE, Mandrake
gowen writes "The gloves have come off in the competition between commercial linux distributions. The Register is reporting that Red Hat is offering a $10 rebate to people who upgrade to Red Hat 7.3, including those who previously used Mandrake and SuSE. Previous users of Windows are not eligible for a rebate."
The one place RH probably beats Mandrake is in polish, in the UI and the packages but it's still a major sacrifice.
Upgrading to Red Hat is like upgrading to Windows.
The whole point (usually) of offering competitive upgrades is to get someone to switch to your product, but in this case, I think it would be better to make that offer to Windows users (e.g., send in your authorized Windows media and key with a purchase of Red Hat Linux and we'll pay you the cost of the Microsoft tax) than it does to compete with other Linux vendors. This kind of internecine fighting is what let Micrsoft get a foot in the door on UNIX to begin with. The last thing we need is fragmentation and infighting in the Linux space.
What is your Slash Rating?
that you rode on to become phony PayPer LieSense funny mony billyunheirs.
being a greed/fear based corepirate megasloth IS more importaNT than being decent folks. eye gas we gnu that.
As someone who tried to upgrade from RH5.2 to RH7, but couldn't because the stupid installer did weird things to my hardware (ie. switch off my monitor) I doubt I'm going to upgrade to any version of Linux soon. SuSE did it to me too, but at least FreeBSD's installer didn't do that. Anyone else had that problem?
Sometimes the naiveness of the younger slashdot readers are quite funny :)
:)
These companies are in the business of making money just like any other company, like coca-cola, microsoft or GM.
The value they see in open source are the free labour they get from it, nothing else.
Ofcause they want to take customers from each others, did you expect something else?
i tried red hat 7.2 wasn't all that impressed with it as a desktop OS. But I would use it on a server way before I use Mandrake. But I guess what I'm sayin is pretty obvoius too so just ignore me
I realize that Redhat is a business but this seems a little underhanded. What is more important to them - encouraging Windows users to "upgrade" to RedHat or taking existing customers away from other distributors.
I personally use SuSE on my notebook and Slackware on my mail server. There is something about RedHat that makes me think that they would like to be the next evil empire.
SuSE is pretty damn good, but Mandrake has always been damn near as problematic as Windows. For my main workstation, I always use Redhat, simply because it is the most compliant of distributions. It doesn't always have the features that SuSE does, but in the end, Redhat gets the job done for me.
Is it me - or is that really a bad idea... Why wouldn't you let someone upgrade from windows to RH and give them 10 bucks off.
The only thing that I can think of is they don't want the pressure from M$ that something like that would bring????
FreeBSD: Nothing runs like a daemon with a pitch fork.
The fact that there are so many different flavors of linux has its pros and cons which we all know about. But why are they competing against each other? The open source community should be one group of like minded people fighting to make open source a viable alternative to closed source, and making it recognized as such to a large number of people. RedHat should try letting people upgrade from windows to RedHat for free. People who are already using Mandrake or SuSe know what RedHat is like and choose their current distro for reasons such as better hardware compatability, better packages, etc. They aren't going to switch to RedHat. I switched out of RedHat to Mandrake. And I'm planning on trying out SuSe.
The GeekNights podcast is going strong. Listen!
Does this mean that if you previously used Windows but upgraded to a competitor's Linux that you are also ineligible for the rebate?
When was the last time you compared the price of RH with other distros? Ten bucks is a pretty sorry incentive for what ammounts to little less than pretty red packaging and some stickers :(
I paid $80 for SuSE. I don't have to do that with RedHat--the ISOs are already free. Why would I want to switch? Obviously I have compelling reasons to use SuSE, or I wouldn't have forked over $80. Dumb move by RedHat in my opinion--just gives me one less reason to use their distro.
what fragmentation? this is one linux company trying to take the market of another one.
this is not infighting the same way that the Unixes did it.
besides, Unix will never regain the market it once had until all the Unix companies are using Linux...a united front against MS.
I am the Alpha and the Omega-3
I'm thinking that the installers probably had trouble with such an archaic OS :)
I've been on the Red Hat upgrade path since 4.2, and in my experience, any time you want to move up a major revision number, your best bet is to back up anything you want to keep, wipe the disk, repartition, make a clean install, and restore from backup. I'm not sure what changed between the 4.x and 5.x series, but between 5.x and 6.x, they changed network config stuff, apache's location (iirc), the default window manager, and a bunch of other stuff. The 6.x to 7.x change was fairly radical too. They moved all the networking stuff to xinetd, moved the wm to Sawfish and Ximian, moved apache (again), switched to openSSH, etc.
What is your Slash Rating?
Isn't offering the rebate to current users of other Linux distros and not to Windows users a tacit admission that the only way they can increase their base is by converting present users rather than introducing new? Basically they are saying that the total Linux market share is as big as it's going to get, so the only way to increase their own is by having people within that subset switch to their own distro. So begins the feeding frenzy!
What??? You mean I can't upgrade Win XP Pro to RedHat 7.3? Is it because Win XP sucks so bad that they don't even want to let the non-l33t people come up? ;)
And so we go, on with our lives
We know the truth, but prefer lies
Lies are simple, simple is bliss
I won't use Redhat, or for that matter any linux distribution based in the US. It doesn't matter if they are good (and Redhat is) or if they offer me a rebate, or even a free boxed set.
The reason I won't is that I don't trust people like the senator from Disney (Hollings).
I think there is a real chance that oss will be outlawed or at least restricted in nasty ways in the US in the next five years.
Especially if Linux makes a dent in the desktop market. (Microsoft isn't widly known for it's scruples... and it they start losing serious money and marketshare they might be tempted to side with the **AA's.)
And I don't want my distribution to go down in flames because of a bought-and-paid-for law.
So I'll stick to European distributions. (As if my sig didn't give that away already...)
At least until such a time as the US lawmakers get their shit together.
"First lesson," Jon said. "Stick them with the pointy end."
Why suse and mandrake. The two biggest desktop oriented linux distros cen be "upgraded" to the ... desktop sufficient at best RedHat? Almost osunds as bad as "upgrading" my debian to Windows 3.1
Windows users already have enough incentive to upgrade.
I'm sorry, but that type of thinking will only hurt Linux in the end.
I, for one, am sad to see RH stooping like this. We don't need infighting among Linux distros right now. Plenty of time for that when Linux as a whole gains a bit more market share. To me, this looks like RH giving up on pushing Linux as a desktop OS for the masses and just focusing on becoming another Monoplisoft.
Instead, RH *should* be targeting previous Windows users. That would be true justice. Fact is, they have way more to gain by trying to convert Windows users.
- If we aren't supposed to eat animals, then why are they made out of meat? - Steven Wright
I will only use redhat when Enlightenment becomes the default manager again....till then its debian...
Ummmmmm, no. If you do a "Custom" install (i.e., not "Server", "Workstation", etc.), then you are given the choice of KDE, GNOME or both (as well as wm, fvwm, and E, if they float your boat) to install. When you are prompted for your X Configuration at the end of the install, you can choose your default resolution, whether to boot into graphical mode (gdm) by default, and whether to use KDE or GNOME as your default GUI. So cut the FUD.
"Disabled". Hah. All you need to do is check a bloody checkbox in your package selection.
I wish I had a kryptonite cross, because then you could keep Dracula and Superman away.
I've got a better one. How about Red Hat pays me $10 to keep using their distro after displaying such underhanded business practices, and I won't switch to Suse or Mandrake. Now I know why my friend calls Red Hat the M$ of the Linux world.
all you people complain about competition with MS (and yes, I agree with you on that) but then you turn around and you hurang RH for competeing!!
you have got to be consistent here, what does competition do? it puts weaker companies out of business and lets the creme rise to the top. one good thing about the Linux world is that there will always be competition as the GPL provides everyone with the same code and a lock out is impossable.
there is nothing wrong with what RH is doing.
I am the Alpha and the Omega-3
Redhat obviously feels that getting rid of that big bloaty pile off poo of a OS is enough of a reward for the user.
Many people here on slashdot don't seem to understand that linux CANNOT compete with Windows on the desktop market. MS has been in this business for a long time. They have spent billions of dollars on research and public opinion polls. They know what the people want more than any linux distro does. The best linux can do is to copy them, steal their ideas. I imagine that the people at Redhat have realized this and thus aren't trying to go for the windows population, instead they go for people who they know already use linux.
A rabbit in the hand is worth 4 in the cage
Everytime I install RH, I am reminded why I choose to use SuSE instead.
not infighting yet...but this being a market system, it won't be long before others do it too. Why do you think there are, say, more than one car company offering 0.0% rates? Why do you figure that when one airline lowers its rates, many others do too? Why do you think that when WordPerfect still existed, both it and Microsoft were offering competitive upgrades from the other's products?
If I have the choice between Mandrake at $40 and Red Hat at $40 and Red Hat offers a $10 discount. and (for whatever reason) I'm not going to download the iso from someplace, doesn't it make more sense to go with the Red Hat offering?
Other companies in this market are going to see it, and I have no doubt that there will be some pricing adjustments. The nice thing about a "Competitive upgrade" pricing model is that you get to charge full price and then, if someone takes the time and effort to prove that they are switching, give a refund. This is nicer than a straight price cut because you get full price for most of the software you sell, while giving the illusion that it is cheaper.
What is your Slash Rating?
why are all the user #'s so close together? very interesting... i'd guess someone (or some company...) got a whole bunch and has a bit of an agenda here. stay tuned...
Red Hat's rebate offer is better than any
Slashdot opinion poll wrt to market share.
What other reason would Red Hat have to offer
such a rebate than that SuSE and Mandrake
take away too much market share from them in
the US ?
I think this is a good sign. It shows that Red Hat thinks there's enough of an installed base of Linux servers and desktops that there's room for some direct competition between major distributions.
Though I do think a rebate for previous users of Windows might have been a good idea.
(Personaly, I'm not fond of Red Hat, but I'm not fond of Mandrake or SuSE either.)
Since I download ISOs of Mandrake, burn 'em and install them, I can just call up RedHat and see if they will give me $10 for each set of RedHat 7.3 ISOs I download instead. Nothing better than watching a price war over a free operating system.
Strange women lying in ponds distributing swords is no basis for a system of government.
I find it sad that you can upgrade from other professional Linux platforms with $10 off, but not from Windows or anything else. It seems to me that Red Hat is taking a cheap shot at the other companies.
This is business, not charity. Face facts - it is in RH's interests for the other companies to exit the market.
As for Windows, the behemoth is not going to be killed for $10!
Need I go on?
My office has been taken over by iPod people.
So does this mean if I download the version for free, they will give me ten bucks?
The world moves for love. It kneels before it in awe.
just when we thought PayPer LieSense FUDgePacking was dead.
Linux is NOT a microkernel, BY DEFINITION. It's a monolithic kernel - all device drivers reside in the same memory space. Plus, it's crap at message-passing, which is what microkernels (except Mach, the single worst microkernel ever) usually do well.
Previous users of Windows ARE eligible for upgrades, if they also used Mandrake or SUSE. It's not just ANY users of Mandrake and SUSE though - it's only those who have purchased a retail copy of the OS, in a box, with a manual. RedHat might give me $10 back for purchasing RedHAt 7.3 after purchasing Mandrake 8.2, but I'm saving even more money by not buying either. In the UK, you could buy Windows 98 for less than the price of these two OSs and the rebate. Just goes to show it's not easy to please everyone :-)
Follow me
Red Hat,like all companies, needs to make money - so you can't blame them. However this is a very short sighted tactic that will be bad for them and Linux in the long run. Stealing marketshare from other *nix distributions shows poor judgement, eventhough they seem to be your main competitor.
In order to gain marketshare, Linux must acquire NEW users, and avoid infighting. Having 3 or 4 distribs or 2 or more desktops is the best way to promote competition and to ensure fitness.
We must promote ourselves...Why? - because more people using Linux = more people writing/improving software.
The main reason I see that people don't switch to Linux is that they're scared to try it and screw up their system. Just show someone your desktop!!!!! Use it in front of them Let them play around on it..Install it on one of their old computers that they don't use.
Linux isn't hard it's just different...
..........FULL STOP.
Isn't "Cathedral & Bazzar" Eric Raymond not Linus?
Linux is not a microkernel, infact Linus HATES microkernels, the simplicity of the parts requires a lot of complexity in the communication.
Linux is a monolithik kernel.
I am the Alpha and the Omega-3
Part of what you pay for when you buy a Redhat box is installation support. Users of other distros are less likely to make use of that support as they are already at least somewhat knowledgable about Linux, thus it's less costly for Redhat to provide to those users.
People migrating from Windows would be more likely to use that support.
(For what it's worth I'm a Mandrake user. I got my Mandrake CD from a local cheap CD burner, donated some money to Mandrake online and purchased Ximian Red Carpet premium service and I'm happy with all of it. I just see cost related reasons why Redhat would do this for people owning Linux and not Windows).
Boffoonery - downloadable Comedy Benefit for Bletchley Park
Stealing customers? Underhanded business practices? WTF?!
People. Red Hat is in business to make money. That's it. Nothing more. If you really think any of the commercial Linux distros have their top priority at promoting open source you are crazy.
My guess is that people aren't jumping from Windows to Linux as well as people had hoped. So, in that case, how do you expand your market share? Easy. You get more people on your distro than other distros. Makes sense to me. Then once you get them on your distro hopefully they'll keep buying YOUR upgrades. Competitive upgrades have been around a LONG time. I think it's a smart move for Red Hat to do this.
Bills have to get paid. Employees have to eat. That's the way things work.
Oh, how my trollish side comes out whenever i log onto slashdot......
1. Buy SuSe 7.3
2. Buy redhat, and get $10 dollar rebate.
3. Return both, pocketing yourself a whopping 10 dollars
easy money...
Linus didn't write The Cathedral and the Bizarre, Linux isn't a microkernel based system, it's a monolithic kernel, RedHat and Mandrake are far from billion dollar companies, and competition is healthy.
In a word, NO.
Come on! This is business, not morning public television kids. Red Hat, Mandrake, and SuSE are all competition. And offering a rebate is hardly underhanded. What you crying about is that you don't want distros be real businesses. Plus, it is pretty pathetic that people will use this as a sour grapes platform for (insert your favorite distro here). It is terrible to see people stoop to lying just for their favorite distro with comments like "Red Hat is the M$ of the Linux world". Red Hat is where it is today because they have made the right moves at the right times. Why is their success such a lightning rod to some losers?
I know that...and this is all good, but there will neve be the kind of lock out infighting that the old Unix market experienced in the early 80's.
I am the Alpha and the Omega-3
DRM? No thanks, I'll just get it somewhere else...
Well, that could be. If a company starts offering advantages to customers to switch, and these advantages have nothing to do with the quality of the product or service offered, such as cash rebates, they abdicate themselves a certain moral high ground. In my opinion anyways, uneducated as that may be.
But what do I know!
I am tired of hearing people bitch about Redhat v. Mandrake v. Suse v. Caldera v. LFS v. whatever...
If you aren't sure of something, download the ISOs burn them to CD, try it out on a box that is not a critical box, and have at! If you like it then great, build a more critical box and install it there. if not, then fdisk the HD and try some other distro! It's not windows for crying out loud so you can try whatever you want!.
Personally, I run RedHat but I like Mandrake because it is a little more user-friendly then RH is but that doesn't mean that I am All-Redhat. It depends on what you're going to do with it..
If you're REALLY tired of all these distros then why not try Linux From Scratch.. (hehe talk about stripped down) http://www.linuxfromscratch.org
Partnership for an idiot free America!
That's exactly the mentality that Microsoft, and to some extent Apple, WANT you to have.
It is a good thing to have many different flavors of the same thing! You can pretty much get almost all the same software working pretty easily on Red Hat, Mandrake, SuSE, Slackware, Debian, etc. They all have different "proprietary" features that interest different people. Maybe you like Mandrake because it bundles a DVD player or its xyzdrake-type programs. Maybe you like Red Hat because you can go to Barnes and Noble and buy a book about it, rather than relying on online documentation. Maybe you like Yast in SuSE. Maybe you like Debian's security-oriented mindset and don't need USB, so the 2.2 kernel is fine. Linux distros don't have to fall in the trap of being all things to all people, but instead can concentrate on doing a few things very well.
Most of the world feels that there is only one OS (and company) for x86 hardware, and this severely hinders competition and innovation. Don't force the Linux community to follow the same conventions, because then there's no reason for an alternative in the first place.
Chris
Hello !
If RedHat "complies" with hardware, that's because they make the manufacturers pay for it,
which is only commercial and not better than Microsoft. One of the biggest reason to use Linux, contradictory with RedHat, then.
And the real compatibility is the *same* in all distributions, SuSE being even a lot better than Redhat. A friend of me has SuSE and I was surprised by the big list of supported TV cards.
But if you speak about "serious" use, as you seem to say, then the most "serious", professionnal distribution is *Debian*.
Conclusion, there is something for everyone, from begginner (Mandrake, SuSE) to professionnal use (SuSE, Debian) and experts (Debian) and this is good...
BTW to answer prescisely to your assumption I had to try Mandrake (latest version) and it was very good. It was like SuSE was 2-3 years ago "very good but not totally mature", while SuSE is now "mature" (Everything works perfectly)
The Price of Freedom is Eternal Vigilance.
I know we have all read Linus's great rant "The Cathedral and the Bizarre,"
Linus didn't write "The Cathedral and the Bazaar", Eric S. Raymond did. Linus is not very involved in the politics of Open Source. He's said many times that he doesn't WANT to be.
But America doesn't get it. When you say Linux, they want to know the stock symbol and the CEO.
No, America doesn't want to know the stock symbol, et al. Most Americans (who have heard of Linux) think of it as a single product, not a company. The thing that they don't understand is that it is a single product with multiple manufacturers/distributors.
For me, numerous packages is not a selling point. I run Linux because I want precise control over what's running on my machine, whether it be a desktop or a server. I don't want layers upon layers of crud.
Example: You cannot install recent Redhat versions without installing sendmail, because cron needs sendmail, and a redhat install needs cron. But I don't want sendmail. In many cases I don't want cron. If I want sendmail functionality, I'll install something less gargantuan and less cumbersome. And if I want cron functionality, I'll install something substantially cleaner than the heavily-heavily patched Vixie cron that comes from redhat.
For me, the perfect "distro" (it's not even really that) is Linux From Scratch. Complete control over everything!
This upgrade process has been going on with Red Hat since the beginning of man. I have gotten numerous rebates from Red Hat in the past. This kind of fluff should not be tolerated. Red Hat has an excellent product and I will continue to support them (plus I am a shareholder) for my entire life. I await Red Hat HURD as well. Enjoy
Linus didn't write that; he was too busy hacking the kernel. Eric S. Raymond wrote that.
not to switch, please? =%-)
Again, apologies for not repeating the slashbot "party line," but I guess I will just have to take a chance with the karma.
Repeat 10 times before pressing the Submit button.
Slashdot is read by many geeks - I must spend 2 mintues checking my facts with Google before posting.
This, you may find, prevents the egg-on-face problem that makes it look like you have no idea what you're talking about.
Frankly your in depth knowledge of the key players and key designs of the GNU/Linux environment astonishes me.
Seems to me its not just Corporate America that doesn't get it
Haven't they just simply added the "rebate" into the cost of thier distro?
Also, the SUSE distro seems to have all same features of the new RH, and is less than half the price anyway.
-- -- Warning. Do not stare directly at the sun.
So, my choices are: pay $50 or whatever for redhat and get a $10 rebate, effectively paying $40, or.
Download redhat or buy it for media cost on cheapbytes, effectively paying $0.
Somehow I doubt this 'rebate' is going to sway many people...
autopr0n is like, down and stuff.
80s.
Not "80's."
The Eighties don't own anything.
(Warning: the following information eventually devolves into a rant!)
:)
If anything, this only validates what many Mandrake and Suse users already knew - these two products are getting incredibly easy to use, even for the "newbies". Yes, Redhat may have a larger commercial share, but that seems to be more in the corporate world, at least from what I have seen.
Personally, I like Mandrake, which makes it very easy to show Linux to someone who is Windows-trained without scaring them too much (grin). Sure, they're not REAL Linux users, according to some, but frankly, thats not the point. I usually get non-geek friends to at least TRY Linux, and the more people that retain a good impression of it, the better! Imagine when NON geeks have a conversation like this:
Non-geek 1: Wow, I just got ANOTHER Outlook/IE/VB Script virus! I hate this crap!
Non-geek 2: Hey, that sucks for you! I'm using KMail on Mandrake Linux that a friend installed for me, that stuff doesn't even hit me!
Non-geek 1: Yeah, but you can't use your windows stuff anymore!
Non-geek 2: Sure I can - I can do something called "dual-boot" so I can use Windows or Linux -
I don't have to give up Windows just to try it!
Etc, etc. If Mandrake, Redhat, and Suse users care about getting more people into Linux, I think we should concentrate on pushing the dual boot issue, and "interoperability", the main reason being that the more "user-friendly" (and yes, I hate that term too) we can make a Linux Desktop, the longer they will stay in the Linux Desktop (besides, sooner or later, they'll need the space Windows is taking up for MP3s, Files, etc
The Red Hat rebate is a nice feather in the cap of Mandrake and Suse, but I think they should have been giving it for WINDOWS users, not as an upgrade, but as a "Use us too!" kind of thing.
The reason I am using Linux now is because it is free speech and beer, and there's lots of options to choose from. And most importantly, it doesn't have all those commercial crap cramped into the OS and applications.
Standardizing Linux and making linux a better option is all well and good, but if I had to give up those freedoms I'd rather it not happen.
Don't quote me on this.
So if I download the ISO's and install RH7.3, they'll send me $10?
~ now you know
if you forget your root password you can always
exploit the box somehow....
It's the Chewbacca Defence! It makes no sense!
Everone who has ever owned a computer and his brother have a Windows license. A competitive upgrade from Windows makes no sense. The base price already includes a competitive upgrade from Windows. Perhaps a competitive upgrade from OTHER versions of Unix might make more sense. RedHat REALLY competes with other versions of Unix, whereas people WISH it competed with Windows.
But I think your idea is slightly different - the "competitive" part means you only get $$ if you give up a copy of Windows.
Hellooooo Chewbacca!
First, Linux is not ready to completely 100% replace Windows for most people. The few who can switch probably have already. End gain: nada. But wait, there's more! Where does RedHat get the money to pay everyone's Windows tax? Hmmm... let's see:
1) Get the money from Venture Capitalists
Ya! RedHat gives everyone their Windows tax back, and then makes the money back on advertising! I'm sure the VC's will back it!
2) Subtract it from the cost of a RedHat distribution
Right-O. RedHat is already losing money selling CD's and support, how about losing even MORE money? And since CD's and support are money-losing ventures, they can make the money of off advertising. Yay!
3) Get the Money from Microsoft
This idea makes the most sense. Since Microsoft is already collecting the "Windows Tax", of course they'll have the money to give the Windows Tax back to people! I'll write my letter to Steve Ballmer today!
People coming off Windows need a good 12-step program, not a rebate.
I believe it was said by Benjamin Franklin that if the american colonies would never beat the british because they would spend too much time bickering among themselves.
hmm... sounds like what redhat's trying to do. Makes sense, really. Imagine Britain fighting Georgia, Carolinas, New York, et cetera. They could have knocked them out one by one easily. However, they TEAMED together and were able to spank the British. Maybe Linux should consider this.
If you're talking servers, you have a point. Linux/RH as a server is a much better alternative than Win32, although the app compatibility leaves much to be desired. I'd use it and Apache over IIS for a web-only server in a heartbeat.
But, if you're talking desktops, then yes, I think you'll need to go on...
The typical EU doesn't care what browser they use or how they got it. Most don't even know what one there ARE using.
Many EUs turn off their machine at the end of every session, who cares about uptime and the occasional quick reboot?
Win XP is pretty damn stable, and it works with all of their apps, so why switch?
Upgrades are only free if you d/l and burn an ISO (although that's still cheaper than XP, but I wouldn't say free).
(BTW, does anyone actually upgrade their distro when a new version comes out? I've done so much distro hopping and re-installing I can't say I ever have.)
RedHat tech support calls can get pretty damn pricey too. To find good tech support, you have to search for it, and that can be daunting for newbies.
NOW - if RedHat can get more Linux users to use their distro, once curiosity is aroused by the Win users who ARE tired of the things you mentioned (and there will be plenty), they'll ask their "1337" linux friends what they use... therein lies the strategy.
damn, then who am I gonna blame for all the crapy music is the 80s down own it?
I don't think fighting amongst the different distributions is going to help promote linux as a legitate OS at all.
I hope redhat gets a clue...
Yes Francis, the world has gone crazy.
I'm a RHCE, so I have some Red Hat Linux experience.
Recently, I acquired an ACER TravelMate 621LV laptop (similar to Toshiba.)
Neither Redhat 7.2 nor 7.3 will even boot. They don't get past the "Initializing PC Card..." section. Fortunately, SUSE installs just fine.
Anyone seen this?
Paul Gillingwater
MBA, CISSP, CISM
Microkernels like Mach, L4, Spin, and QNX run as much of the operating system as possible in user space (the processors unprivildged execution mode). Device drivers, virtual memory managers (pagers), all run in user space, as normal applications. Alternate resource allocation policies (processor scheduling) can often be implemented on top of the microkernel. This allows a lot of flexibility, as parts of the os can be stopped, started, replaced, and debugged just like any other user applications.
You can even run entrie alternate operating systems on top of a microkernel. MkLinux (Linux on Mach) and L4Linux (Linux on L4) are examples of this. Traditionally microkernels have been slower than conventional kernels, but that's chaning. Linux in user space on top of L4 (L4Linux) runs only 5% to 10% slower than native linux.
Linux does have loadable modules, which can be loaded and unloaded at run time. However, the the loaded code run as part of the kernel, in the prividged execution mode.
Nathan Wiebe
They way I read it, it sounds as if they are giving a discount for upgrades (standard practice) and including any linux distribution as the base of the upgrade. So, aren't they just implying that all linux distributions are basically the same?
Part of what you pay for when you buy Red Hat installation support. People who already own a Linux distro are unlikely to need it so it seems reasonable to pass some of that saving back to them.
Windows users on the other hand are more likely to use that support.
It seems to me that Redhat aren't targetting other distros so much as passing some savings on to those who already know Linux to some extent and therefore will be less of a drain on Redhat Support.
Boffoonery - downloadable Comedy Benefit for Bletchley Park
... because Cardinal Law is giving "red hat" a bad name.
bwahahahaha.
You forgot to point out to him, that The Cathedral and the Bazaar was Eric's rant, not Linus'.
"The words of the prophets are written on the Slashdot walls."
All through the early 90's I cursed Sun and IBM and HP and SGI because they were back stabbing each other, fighting over market share, while Microsoft grew and grew and grew and the Unix market shrunk and shrunk. Microsoft was always there, always with shitty products but with incredible focus on features and marketing.
Then in the late 90's a beam of hope, Linux started gaining popularity with it's focus on "unix" for the masses and then suddenly Apple was running Unix.
Please let this not be a return to the bad old days!
- Simon 1:
- - OS: Mandrake 8.2 (linux) - www.mandrake.com
- - IP: 12.100.246.219
- - DNS: simon.sec33.com & simon1.sec33.com
- - Date system was loaded: Monday, March 25, 2002
- - Date system was last compromised: Sunday, April 14, 2002
- - Last compromised by: Owen
Held up for about 3 weeks... not bad
Looks like it did a bit better than the SuSE 7.2 box...
- Simon 2:
- - OS: S.U.S.E 7.3 (linux) - www.suse.com
- - IP: 12.100.246.218
- - DNS: simon2.sec33.com
- - Date system was loaded: Sunday, April 14, 2002
- - Date system was last compromised: Friday, April 12, 2002
- - Last compromised by: Ingus
Also, the link given to the Simple Simon site in the parent post is incorrect. The proper location is http://www.sec33.com/modules.php?name=Content&pa=
I really hate signatures, but go to my website.
Cathedral and the Bizarre. Heheh. Looking at ESR and RMS, I kinda see how that works better...
What the hell are you talking about?
There is nothing microkernel about Linux. It doesn't do message passing, it doesn't talk to device drivers through IPC, etc. It's your regular macrokernel. Search google for an early usenet flamewar between Torvalds and Tannenbaum for more information. Linux has modules, but that has absolutely zero to do with being a microkernel; the fact that the core of a microkernel is "small" and you can compile lots of stuff into modules to make your Linux kernel image "small" has nothing to do with being a microkernel.
I also have no idea what you're talking about when you say the "GNU macrokernel." Virtually all the actual GNU programs (eg, those programs that are listed on gnu.org and whose authors have assigned their copyright to the FSF) use the C library (except GRUB). Anything that uses the C library is not kernel programming - it may be systems programming or applications programming (as if this distinction makes any difference whatsoever), but it certainly is not kernel programming. Even glibc, which directly uses the kernel interfaces for syscalls (eg, int 0x80 on Linux), is not kernel programming.
Linux is a kernel, but is not a microkernel: it is a monolithic kernel. GNU+Linux makes an operating system, but GNU is not a "macrokernel" or any kind of kernel for that matter.
Oh please. You're a real freedom fighter.Patrick Doyle
I mod down every jackass who puts his moderation policy in his sig. Oh, wait a sec....
I stoped reading his post at the microkernel part since I did not want to waist my brain cells on such a moron.
how do you expand your market share? Easy. You get more people on your distro than other distros
Unfortunately, this happened in the Macintosh clone market circa 1996. It was easier for Power Computing et al to canabalize Apple's market than go out and get new customers. But canabalization thins the herd, so expect a loss of distros.
This may be necassary consolidation or short-sighted business practices, time will tell.
Lies about crimes
6. You don't have to worry about spyware.
I think that covers it.
Corporations == political power. The more corporations that adopt Linux and OSS, the less likely OSS will have any laws put against it. If many large corps invest in OSS for all their systems, do you think they are going to let any laws get passed that prevent them from continuing to it? If Linux/OSS can push itself into large corporations, then OSS will be buying itself political power.
Outdoor digital photography, mostly in New Engl
A problem I see with this is that you may actually get people who buy RedHat 7.3, and are currently windows users. Ok, so what? That is the point after all.
But then, these windows users try to use Redhat, realize they don't know what they're doing, or that they can't do things they could in windows, and then get turned off of linux. Then they go around telling everyone and their brother about how Linux sucks, and the whole point of the rebate, which is to get people to switch from windows to Linux, backfires.
RedHat still isn't ready for everyone. Even though it's great for some people.
Linux (any distro, any GUI) still isn't ready for the masses. The joke/troll/insight someone had that OS X is the first Unix ready for Windows users kinda conveys how far Linux still has to go for the average user.
I'm not pressuring my friends (much) to use Linux, even tho I'd really like to. I'd even be afraid to convert my office to Linux desktops, even tho I'm in a position to do so. If, after scaling the learning curve, the user loses an ability they used to have -- a favorite IM service, a proprietary media or browser plug-in, whatever -- I've created a new Windows loyalist.
Everone who has ever owned a computer and his
brother have a Windows license.
i dont have one, and i've owned about 3 computers personally. i realize i'm not the normal user, but i'm not the only person i know of who has a computer and never had a real version of windows. hell i've never actually owned a copy of msdos.
-- john
Additionally, check out #18 - "Denial notices will be sent to consumers detailing the reasons for denial and the steps for re-submission..."
Most companies don't go through the trouble.
--
(grumble mode on)
Usually all the people who use gentoo chime in any time a distribution is mentioned. Perhaps they are finding that with each emerge rsync, more things seem broken?
(grumble mode off)
Have you read the Moderator Guidelines yet?
this is outrageous! redhat trying to feast on another linux rival .. how low can humanity sink?
That RH sees SuSE as worthy of attack only opens eyes to the extremem benefits of SuSE , underlining as it does the fact that RH really must see SuSe as a threat.
SuSe 8.0 is extremely good, and extremely complete.
"There are 11 kinds of people: those who know binary, those who don't, and those who could not care less!"
...are bloated pieces of *nixcrap bugware, i tryed both distros, on a MSI K7T266 Pro2 with a AMD 1600+ & 256 megs DDR RAM NVIDIA GeForce2 MX200, CreativeLabs audio PCI 128, drake8.2 would install just fine but get kernel panic during the first boot, drake's tech says to pass this parameter to lilo.conf "linux=nobiospnp" it would boot after this but ran slow & the CPU ran @ nearly 100% all the time...
.RPM based distros Redhat wins on my desktop...
.config files & scripts to get good ol Slack the way i like it but was well worth it...
SuSE7.3 would just garely get installed at all, and it would boot but was the same as drake, (slow & buggy)...
as i type this i am using Redhat7.1 with KDE & mozillaRC1 and it runs exellent!!! even the fonts are good...
so as far as my personal experience with
but as far as my personal opinion as far as Linux distros go is Slackware8 seems to be my favorite, it does take a little more manuel tweaking & tuning and manually editing a few
for any one wanting to take those first steps in Getting Linux installed & running i allways reccomend Redhat 7.1\7.2\7.3 because it has the user friendly design but not all the redundit hand-holding distro specifc bug infested crapware that drake & suse have, for example in drake why have harddrake for configurung hardeware when there allready is Kudzu running at boot for configuring hardware, plus many more too numerous to mention...
and get Slack! http://www.slackware.com
In my experience, the basic level of support offered by Redhat with their boxed sets is completely useless. At least half a dozen other people I know have had the same results. Redhat says they offer support, but don't. It's no more than a bullet point on the box to get you to buy their distribution.
I can't comment on their higher levels of support. But their failure to deliver what's advertised for their basic level doesn't inspire confidence.
Bottom line- don't be swayed by "buzz" or a brand name. Buy what's proven- really, truly proven.
Reading the reply's i just noticed that either you are saying Ay or Nay against this subject.
Both sides have very valid points. On point of view is missing though...
Will this begin the period where UNIX began slipping? To offer an incentive you make your distro different, either easier or with more packages etc.. then you start making proprietary tools like YaST... then your distro will be offering things to attract corporate attention, either by making it's base different from the competition, and then your distro is fundamentaly different. Despite the fact that the LSB advocates a standard you just won't comply just to keep your market share..
Sounds familiar...
I've been using RedHat since 5.0. I usually download their ISO's, with a broadband connection it's fast, inexpensive, and I don't need support from RedHat.
Since we now see Mandrake and everyone else asking for donations, I think RedHat should have a donations page for people who appreciate what they are doing (GPL code, download sites, iso's, sponsoring kernel and gui hackers, linux in education, MS antitrust efforts, etc) and want to give something back to the company.
AS far as all the comments about what distro is better, etc. You tell me what the people prefer! Here is the stats from download.com:
Linux-Mandrake 8.2 pick
Try a comprehensive Linux distribution with automated installation and configuration features.
OS: Linux
File Size: 645MB
License: Free
04/24/2002
100%
15 votes 369,206
Red Hat Linux 7.2 pick
Try this popular distribution of the Linux operating system.
OS: Linux
File Size: 1.25GB
License: Free
10/25/2001
37%
1,093 votes 711,666
SuSE Linux 7.3 pick
Try this high-performance, easy-to-use Linux distro that offers more than 2,000 up-to-date applications.
OS: Linux
File Size: 1.4MB
License: Free
10/25/2001
35%
567 votes 95,106
Debian GNU/Linux 2.2r3
Try this open source, free distribution of Linux and the GNU tools.
OS: Linux
File Size: 28.2K
License: Free
04/19/2001
26%
1,153 votes 25,816
But it's not on my desktop. I'd buy Red Hat (and do for my company) for any server, but on my desktop at home I moved to SuSE 8.0 and have never been happier. SuSE Is easy to install and configure and it broke me of Windows once and for all. I appreciate what Red Hat is trying to do, but they should spend their efforts on attacking the enemy and not shooting at the same people they're supposed to be fighting with. Dissension in the ranks is not a good sign.
1) It has The Bat!. I haven't seen a better mailer.
;).
2) I need to be 100% compatible with Word in my school. I don't want to install OpenOffice, StarOfice, and KDE's office to find out which one better supports word.
3) XMMS is great, but soumething always interferes with esd/KDE's sound daemon. Sound usually works, but not all the time.
4) Concerning music, I haven't seen anything on Linux better than MilkDrop. There is a G-Force for XMMS, but it doesn't compile with me.
5) Not every program has RPMs, and I want to keep track of what I have installed.
6) Yes, this is outdated, but I don't have much disk space to upgrade. Gnome is ugly (in my opinion - too squary), KDE 2 is slow and unstable. There hardly is a good browser for Linux - Konqueror has problems with fonts, Mozilla is slow. I'll try to install Mozilla 1.0 when I'll reboot next.
7) I'm too lazy to reboot, and I have Cygwin.
As an end user, I sometimes reboot only for one reason - Cygwin's gdb is buggy. So, Linux for me is just the enviroment that runs ddd without crashing
wait, it hurts linux if people buy two copies instead of one from companies that help fund linux development? Your logic seems flawed.
Hah!! ( [tm] Chris Matthews, for you Hardball fans )
The only Microsoft "licenses" I own are the ones for the copies of Internet Explorer that came with my Macs .. unless I secretely paid Microsoft tax on my intel motherboard or something .. I don't think this is uncommon among Linux users!
I just recently set up a machine with RedHat and really love it! I've been using Windows for quite some time but now I am thinking of how I could do everything on Linux. I love the idea of Open Source and the community that surrounds it. I was ready to pay for RedHat even though I downloaded the ISOs for free but with this new move by RedHat I might just try out Mandrake or SuSe. It seems contrary, in my view, to the fundamental ideals of the Linux community. Also, I really don't understand why they wouldn't want to encourage Windows users to switch...is it because they fear Microsoft's wrath? A bully on the Linux turf fears an even bigger bully?
Except for the part where my entire Suse system would freeze any time it even tried to talk with my modem. I'm talking reset-button freeze.
Yes, it is a hardware modem and Red Hat (barring an odd, non-fatal quirk) has worked with it since 6.1.
Bottom line (often overlooked): different people, different needs, different distros.
The one that is best is the one that does what you need it to.
-r
(apparently I previewed this comment last night at 8:00pm: 'by r_barchetta on Thursday May 09, @08:00PM')
Just because something is free does not mean you have to take it.
So the system was compromised before it was loaded? I think I'll ignore this testcase.
Oh well, I guess this offer is relevant to a very limited number of people... Good job /.
download.com?
Are you actually downloading iso from download.com.
Muuuhhuuhhuuuaaaahahhahhhahhhaahhaa
That's good, that's a new one. I'll just check mcdonalds.com for their download ratings.
Muuuhhuuhhuuuaaaahahhahhhahhhaahhaa
these are the stats from download.com. you tell me what is crap!!!!
Distro User rating Downloads
Mandrake 100% 369,206
Redhat 37% 711,666
Suse 35% 95,106
Debian 26% 25,816
Gee, this $10 rebate was mentioned right on Red Hat's page and marketing, and if anybody just bought it (my boxed copy came yesterday) it has a sticker and form on the box. So you guys need a Register story to discover this?
Many software packages come with these rebates you know. Quicken came (or used to come) with an upgrade rebate. Adobe Photoshop Elements came with a competitive $30 rebate offer. Common practice!
How about the scoop on the REAL story: where are the goddamn Red Hat stickers? When I bought 7.0 it came with STICKERS! Do you think I shelled out $many dollars for my Red Hat 7.3 Personal box set for NOTHING? Where are my stickers!!!
I think the lack of stickers in the box is a clear sign that Red Hat is ready to file for chapter 11, or maybe even indicative of an Enron-style debacle. First the stickers go, next thing you know, Red Hat's backing the SSSCA and supporting Al Queda. What do you folks think??
Once I used RH for all my stuff, I switched to SUSE
2 years ago and will not switch back. I think RH has the same motives as MS$$$
I've been using Mandrake since version 6.2, and have loved it. Recently I've installed SuSE 8 on my primary workstation, and absolutly love it. As far as RedHat, I don't really care for it. I respect the fact that they are in the wold activly competing with Windows. The sacrifice of the features isn't worth it to me.
:)
Fragmentation in the Linux community would be a very bad thing right now. With Micro$oft bgged with legal battles, this is the perfect time for all the Linux distros to band togather and put a major dent in their server market.
Linux on the desktop is coming, but IMHO it isn't quite there yet. When it is, I see many companies (inclding school districts, and government agencies) dumping the Evil Empire for something that is a great deal less expensive, and much more stable.
With projects like PHP Projekt and PHP Groupware making great strides in development, I can see the Open Source comunity advancing on Exchange, and hopefully replacing it. Keep up the good work developers
This is a caution about dual boot systems:
... not at all what I had been expecting. I thought my hard disk had gone bad.)
Dual boot is quite useful, and I use it on my main system at work. But I don't really trust partition resizing tools. I've ended up with a few too many corrupt partition tables. So now I have a second hard disk. But if I install the boot partition on the second hard disk, then after awhile that installation fails at boot.
It took awhile to figure this out, but in the end I backed up my windows partition, reformatted my primary disk, with a boot partion, a swap partion, and a windows partition. Rolled the windows program back in (I used ghost for this). And then installed Linux. Now it works fine, without much problem. But figuring out what I needed to do was largely a matter of try something, wait til it crashes (sometimes a couple of months). Figure out what to try next. Repeat. And for the longest time, the only reliable way to boot Linux was from a floppy.
I'm not really sure that it would be appropriat to expect things to work better (though it sure would be nice). I am sure that it's appropriate to expect better diagnostics. Partition tabel corrupt is a terrible diagnostic to be the first warning sign. Particularly when it keeps you from even accessing the disk. (Interestingly, when I reformatted the system to put the boot partition on the primary disk, fsck magically recovered all of the missing data, and nothing ended up lost
I think we've pushed this "anyone can grow up to be president" thing too far.
It's odd that the competitive upgrade rebate only applies to fairly recent versions of the competitors' products. SuSE 7.3's not that old, neither are the Mandrake versions they're allowing. Some incentive.
# apt-get install redhat-rebate
...
Couldn't find package redhat-rebate.
Damn! First abiword, now this.
No, no, no, no, no, no, no. A competitive upgrade from Windows makes a great deal of sense.
You see, right now I think the retail version of RH 7.3 is selling for $60, give or take. So you offer a $10 competitive upgrade for anyone who brings in ANY evidence that they've used Windows. A CD, a case with a sticker, a printed screen shot, doesn't matter.
Sure Red Hat is giving up $10 a box if they do this. But, assuming they can still make money on every box they ship at $50, this gets them a ton of publicity that whatever they pay out in rebates could never buy otherwise.
Magazines would cover it -- and I'm not talking about the usual ZD rags, I'm talking about Time and Newsweek. It's a natural for thirty seconds of coverage in the business section of every local TV news show in America. If whoever does Red Hat's publicity is smart, they'd be making or fielding calls from talk shows and newspaper reporters.
I wouldn't expect they would sell all that many more copies of Red Hat with the Windows competitive rebate, but in the end it doesn't matter. One of the big obstacles to Linux right now is the public's complete lack of awareness that it exists, or if they know about it, it's some high end computer smart guy thing they see on those IBM commercials.
I don't know how much this could help, but I can't see how it could possibly hurt.
Someone you trust is one of us.
Redhat wants to grow, to get a stable and growing income base to: pay off their investors and banks and to give incentives to people to keep owning and buying redhat shares.
In capitalism, winner takes all or most anyway, especially the big winners, the dominant players.
They also attract yet more investors - the really really big ones, the insurers, the pension funds.
Got bugger all to do with open source. Thats just the product on sale. In time, redhat may sell other products, the evolving corporation.
I dunno, but my experience with Red Hat has been less than satisfactory, and I can't figure that the customer support is really worthwhile. Basic support with Red Hat is similar to basic support with Windows. Most of the stuff can be found online, which is why I always got student license or OEM license for MS stuff, since I wasn't going to bother to pay the extra amount so I could get two free calls to MS tech support and have somebody basically read my what was online.
I'm completely amused that I've been considered flamebait for stating my preference for non-predatory practices in a market that's fighting a much larger behemoth. I guess either the Red Hat or Microsoft boys got mod points today.
The power of accurate observation is commonly called cynicism by those who have not got it. - G.B. Shaw
Heheheh I didn't even notice that :) Just a cut and paste from there website. I think they re-load after a system comprimise, but after you pointed that out.... I think ill have to ignore it too, good catch.
1. $ apt-get install suse :-)
2. $ apt-get install redhat
3. go buy lunch
The apostrophe here does not mark possession but an abbreviation of many numbers: i.e. 80, 81, 82, etc.
Consult a style guide.
>>send in your authorized Windows media and key with a purchase of Red Hat Linux
Could RedHat then sell out the copies of Windows media sent in back out to the commercial market? Say sell Windows XP to people for $10? Im sure there is some legalalities blocking such actions.
I think this is a pretty underhanded move on Red Hat's part. This kind of thing doesn't help the Open Source cause at all. We are still the underdogs, and once we start fighting amongst ourselves it just clears the way for MS to come in and crush us. United we stand, divided we fall.
On the other hand, though, how much does difference $10 make? Red Hat Pro is $199, whereas SuSE Pro is $79, and I have a hard time believing that Red Hat Pro comes with more stuff than SuSE Pro.
Add to that the countless reviews that say something like "I couldn't get Hardware X to work under Red Hat, but it under SuSE it worked automagically", and I have to wonder if the Red Hat folks aren't focusing on the wrong thing. Up til now it seemed that the distros were competing solely on technology/features; Red Hat focusing on the US business market, Mandrake with their gaming edition, SuSE's assload of included packages, Slackware for the minimalists, even Rock for the old school Unix admins. This offer seems to take the competition to a different level. It feels more Marketing and less Tech, and the marketing approach has always felt sleazy to me.
Just offering a small rebate isn't so bad, I guess. What really bothers me is what this could become. I really hope the other distros don't follow suit here, as I think if they did it would just degenerate into a mud-slinging match, and that's the last thing we need. Linux is on the brink of mainstream acceptance. It would be really sad if we stumbled so close to the finish line, especially if it's because of something stupid like that.
Under capitalism man exploits man. Under communism it's the other way around.
...I'm using RedHat 7.2 and I won't even update to 7.3. One major reason is gcc 2.96-RH. I've been considering Mandrake and SuSE in RedHat's stead because of the compiler itself, let alone other troubles I've had with RedHat. Besides, wouldn't it be a crossgrade? I don't consider RH, SuSE or Mandrake to be superior to any of the other, they all have their pros and cons.
"It's here, but no one wants it." - The Sugar Speaker
I recently installed Mandrake 8.2 with only a passing knowledge of unix (a few bash commands). It resized my Windoze drive w/o dumping my data and installed itself w/o problem in the new space. I can't compare to Red Hat but Mandrake is great. In my opinion the #1 thing to do in order to get Joe Windowze User on to linux is to make sure he never has to learn this:
tar zxf somefile
./configure
make
make install
Some computer science students don't even know how to use a command line compiler, no way is my mom going to figure it out. Get those rpm's cooking!
Stop bickering and buy all three (or join the club). Nothing speaks louder than $$$$. I find it more satisfying and interesting to TRY all three, then choose. RedHat will listen more to a registered user who PAID for a distro & said "I like mandrake better". All three are sisters and all are working for a greater good. Besides, it doesn't hurt knowing all three. Pay up, it does the companies good and it does YOU good.
If you read why the Mandrake 8.2 box was compromised, you'll see it is an human failure : the admin changed root password to a really stupid password (1234) for one hour (or so) when somebody was trying to check password..
BTW, this box is not even configured with maximum security level (Level 5) which would have prevent this attack but low security (Level 2)
Guess there is no use offering the rebate to :)
current Debian users since their package
management system beats Red Hat hands down
(Just had to add my 2 cents since I recently
switched back to Debian after trying Gentoo
and not being too impressed by Portage.)
IMO this tell us something critical about how RH sees the Linux vs. Windows competition: You can bribe people to switch distros for $10, but you can't get people to switch from Windows to Linux for that amount. Based on my experience with a lot of Windows users who have shown an interest in Linux and universally given up on it because it won't run the apps they care about, I have to say I agree with RH's assessment.
That single thing prevent Linux from EVER being popular. RPMs fail to install more often than they suceed. Leaving you with a crippled system. Having to hand uninstall what the RPM barfed all over your system, Then you have to go grab the source and hand build and install it. The entire thing is a tragicomedy! Linux is still decades away from being a viable desktop solution. Maybe never as Apple and Microsoft sure as hell aren't standing around waiting for Linux to catch up.
Currently Linux does not even come close to the usefulness of Windows 95. And were 7 years beyond that now! The "Tower of Babel" OS approach is the biggest hinderance to Linux advancing out of the dark ages of UNIX. Your comments are doing nothing but holding it back further!
they bundle The Sims House Party or The Sims Vacation with Red Hat ...
Otherwise, since Mandrake has a bundle with the basic version of The Sims, I have no incentive to switch distros.
-
--- Will in Seattle - What are you doing to fight the War?
I do not see anything wrong with this. What notion of reality is everyone subscribing to wherein a rebate is a bad thing?
This is not stealing customers, sorry. It is giving a rebate for an upgrade which, as someone else pointed out, is probably due to the savings in technical support by non-newbie customers.
Second, I own RedHat 7.2, now I own RedHat 7.3. I get $10 back. Thanks, RedHat. If they did not give a rebate you would complain it cost too much.
Next, someone complained about ripping up your manual - it is your old manual they want the cover of. Read the directions - "eligable product's manual" and the eligable product is from the list, i.e. old verions of RedHat or SuSE or Mandrake.
Now, RedHat is a business and you just bought a box with paper and CDs in it. Not a religion or a political agenda. Sorry to rain on anyone's parade. I got $10 bucks - yay! If you buy RedHat, you can get $10 bucks back, too. Or not. Have fun.
Finally, the real complaint is why does this version not have the free stickers of previous editions!@!?
There goes my karma...:)
If you don't buy a US distribution, you're supporting terrorism! Think of the children!
...
That's why I use Big Oil Linux. Then one (1) dollar of the two (2) dollars I spent on it thru cheapbytes goes to support terrorists who will attack the US real soon now.
I used to use Green Power Linux, but Bush showed me the error of my ways. Mind you, it was cheaper and made me a Real Patriot, but if King George says S.u.S.e. was made by Muslim terrorists, according to Mullah Ashcroft, I can't use that.
Good thing I no longer have the old Greenpeace distro
-
--- Will in Seattle - What are you doing to fight the War?
Yup. I read that. Its pretty impressive really. I am thinking of putting up a mandrake box in my server farm at home.. Right now they are all rh...
-Ryan
You heard me!
Amen, brother ! I gave $80 to this company and they gave me a useful product that could be installed on my family's computer (beginners), my computer (intermediate), and my servers at work (advanced) at runlevels 3 and 5. I have heard many people talk about how SuSE is for beginners. This is not true at all, it is just structured in a fundmental fassion for professionals who do not need the bloat that comes in Red Hat and are so used to Linux, they just want everything to be where it should. Mandrake is by far the worst distro on the planet. Its wacky setup tools are questionable in their reliability and functionality at best.
Let's hear it for SuSE, who keeps the quality in the Linux spirit.
What about underhanded tactics like forcing OEMs to sign deals requiring them to buy a copy of your operating system for every PC they ship (even if they're selling it without an OS). What about embracing and extending an API so that you break the protocol and make your programs no longer interoperate with the competition? What about releasing updates to "components" of your operating system so users can't locate your competitors websites?!
This isn't die-hard, winner takes all competition. This is normal, everyday, non-monopolistic competition.
Wow! The things Red Hat has to go to to get business! Mandrake is a very viable M$ alternative, and Red Hat is SO afraid of having its businessing taken away. Gimme a break, it's linux! I can download it for free! And you're offering me a $10 rebate? Lol.
does anyone else think we may soon see mergers/buyouts in the linux world similar to the rest of the tech industry? all distros have strength/weaknesses, so in theory, two competitors could become a single stronger company if they integrated the right way.
it would be tricky to support previous tools from both distros into the new single distro, but the results could be very interesting.
ideas anyone?
you probably shouldn't have read this.
http://www.linuxiso.org/distro.php?distro=7
Why not just download the ISO again? Oh. Yeah. Printed documentation. Uh huh.
Why do we have to fight it out between ourselves?
Cmon I'm cheering for all the linux distros.
I use Mandrake mainly but I downloaded RH7.3 and plan to download woody as soon as I can.
I think that we really outta be offering rebates to those who switch from windows or something. We (the open source/linux guys) need a bigger user audience. That's why windows remains the popular choice to the masses. All the lil 3rd party apps and oh games... lots of people just want their wintendo. If we had a larger group of linux users we could get more developers' attention and then get better 3rd party games and apps rather then depend on WineX and VMware. That in turn would get the attention of all the mom & pops who just wanna run quicken (go gnucash!) and an internet browser. And the process goes on. Get more users, get more developers, get more users...
I like the ppl @ redhat and mandrake and yeah SuSe too (though I'd like them more if we could download the latest i386 isos *ahem*).
Point is... We should be working together here, not competing, unless this competition will somehow help everybody...
Sigs pose an operational security risk and help the baddies aggregate data. I guess commenting does too, oops.
I dunno. I see this as a way to get Linux more known to everybody. If Red Hat steps up advertising against other distros, everyone else will have to step up advertising. Possibly getting more business for all distro makers.
Why yes I am paranoid! Thanks for asking!
Excellent! Well done, my friend. So many replies and got modded up.
What really cracked me up (and what made your post so great) was the bozos who yelled who clueless YOU were! Furthermore, your post exposes how stupid slashbots truly are.
This one belongs in the troll Hall of Fame. Again, well done!
send in your authorized Windows media and key with a purchase of Red Hat Linux and we'll pay you the cost of the Microsoft tax
Except that, legally, you have to send in your whole PC with the media and Key. You know it's true, Microsoft said so.
--
"Outlook not so good." That magic 8-ball knows everything! I'll ask about Exchange Server next.
While I understand a company first looks after its own survival, I think Redhat is shortsighted to first go after fellow UNIX customers, and now even fellow Linux users.
Yes, those may be easier targets, but in the end if no external users can be won (non UNIX) it is all in vain. In these times of oppression, we UNIX users (of which I consider Redhat and Linux to be part) should stick together. Healthy competition is no problem, even beneficial, but we must not forget what the real target is.
Maybe its good one company rises to the top. Joe lamer will be confused simply from the fact there is a choice (gasp!).
> Sure Red Hat is giving up $10 a box if they do this. But, assuming they can still make money on every box they ship at $50, this gets them a ton of publicity that whatever they pay out in rebates could never buy otherwise.
Problem is, Linux isn't quite ready to be this kind of drop-in replacement for an average user's Windows desktop, not just yet. In companies, perhaps. That 'ton of publicity' could well turn out to be bad publicity if these upgrades don't go well, and bad publicity in the emerging Linux desktop market is *not* the same as "any publicity is good!" (ie, this isn't Hollywood).
I had the same thought, at first, but decided against it. Maybe in six months or so, but not now. Having Time and Newsweek cover failed Win -> Linux upgrades is not what we need right now.
> I dunno. I see this as a way to get Linux more known to everybody.
Known in a good way, or a Bad way? This isn't the entertainment business, bad publicity isn't at all better than none at all. We need to continue the string of solid success stories; Win -> Linux upgrade failures at this point only feed a Microsoft FUD machine that's salivating for fresh meat.
Mandrake 8.2 is pretty impressive. . .
Now if they would get away from those icky blue and orange icons everywhere. . .
..when they pry it from my cold, dead hands!!!
Honestly now: Up your's, RH!
I never really believed that your all-in-one Pro package with a two-game-demo bonus could in any way really stand up to it's price of 249,- Euro(!!!)
The first time I saw that pricetag I couldn't believe my eyes! (And I had thought that recent raise of SuSE Pro from 50$ to 80$ was much)
Crappy dead-tree docs (by SuSE standards anyway), less options during the easy n00by install, and not a dimes worth more on apps on their CDs/DVD.
No f*ckin' way are they gonna talk me into thinking that their measily10$ rebate is a bargain. Because it just plain isn't..
Get real, RH, you must be kiddin'.
BTW: Let's also not forget the hilarious pricing of their Red Hat Certified Engineer Training and Certification.
5000 Euro??? - Yeah, shure....
We suffer more in our imagination than in reality. - Seneca
If you read the site Mandrake was compromised becuse they set the root password to 12345678
DUH not much of a Mandrake problem there.
I don't know about the Linux partitioning/resizing tools, but I can recommend PowerQuest's Partition Magic to you if you still have a working Windows install. I've not had any troubles with it.
RedHat has suddenly decided to treat the other Linux distributors as competitors. That's great. At least there's one platform where we can see some healthy competition leading to real innovation.
If RedHat were opposed to competition (or SuSE, etc.), then I'd worry.
If they didn't give these rebates nobody who bought the Personal or Professional versions of other distros would give a second thought to buying Red Hat Personal on a price basis alone. Red Hat is not cost competitive without the rebates, and even with the rebates their Professional distribution is on the pricy side; unless you compare it to Windows.
No Windows user who as invested in a ton of software (Office, games, etc) would ever switch to Red Hat or to any version of Linux if they were forced to give up that software (as in handing over the media and key). Abandoning it would be a waste of $$.
Now a SuSe user would be able to retain most, if not all, of their software, settings, data, etc so an upgrade becomes something thats within the realm of possibility.
"Fragmentation and infighting". Interesting choice of words. Fragmentation doesn't matter as long as everyone adheres to common standards and uses compatible kernels. Infighting (aka competition) is a good thing and should be encouraged... as long as.... everyone adheres to common standards and uses compatible kernels.
When I bought 7.2 in the store, I got it home and I followed the instructions and sent in the rebate w/ the UPC's etc. Over 6 months later, I still have yet to receive my rebate. I guess it couold have gotten lost in the mail or something, but isn't it funny how rebate offers in general get lost a lot more often than most forms of mail. I had completely forgotten about it until this story came up. Did Redhat contract an outside company to handle the rebate stuff last time? If this was a common occurence, they might want to find someone else to handle it this time.
-- Knowledge shared is power lost. -- Aleister Crowley
A reasonable amount of packages, all arranged by disk set so you can skip what you don't need (A, AP, N, X, GTK+ make you a Gnome workstation with all network tools, but no development, kernel, games, etc).
Plus it uses Matthew Dillon's cron, something which has never, ever had a vulnerability appear on Bugtraq in the years I've been reading it.
--
Internet Explorer (n): Another bug -- that is, a feature that can't be turned off -- in Windows.
-Joe
I really hate signatures, but go to my website.
Why does everyone talk about something being free as in beer? I've just come from the pub, and let me tell you this. Beer isn't free. It costs me over £2 a pint.
You can't win Darth. If you mod me down, I shall become more powerful than you could possibly imagine
..out of all this amazement about RedHat offering a rebate. "Betraying the cause" seems to come up a lot.
Here's a news flash, the only cause they have is to ultimately make money, not the overthrow of the evil empire. If it means slugging it out with the other distros then thats what they will do. Look for it to get much, much nastier in the near future.
Besides, it's needed. We need to winnow out the minor distros and focus on a few select ones that have the ability to compete later with the big boy. Distros like gentoo and Debian should just go the way of the dodo if they cant keep up. We need 2 or MAYBE 3 strong distros, not 4 or 5. Move people from the stuggling distros over to the more accepted ones if your so concerned about the ability of Linux to make it in the desktop world, stop wasting resources puttering around on minor ones.
That was one of the ones that lead to a corrupt partition table after a few weeks. Granted, it was a version from two years ago, but I haven't wanted to throw good money after bad.
(Not to mention the time, effort, and loss of data thtt was involved.)
That particular one hosed the windows partition as well as the Linux partions.
I think we've pushed this "anyone can grow up to be president" thing too far.
Ok folks, no one thinks why people left Red Hat. I remember Red Hat fondly; they were my first distro back in May 2000 when I bought a copy of Red Hat 6.2 Deluxe Workstation and had it shipped to my country. The distro was more than good, and I subsequently upgraded to 7.1 and 7.2 (yes, I skipped 7.0).
However, there were some problems that became increasingly annoying. First of them is the increasing bloat; a standard RH install is now around 2 GB, while a standard MDK install with the same packages occupies much less space. I understand the need of disk space if it is justified, but I don't understand this useless bloat. The software is also slow, and a Mandrake installation is certainly more responsive than Red Hat.
But what really pushed me to leave Red Hat behind is their treatment of KDE. They treated KDE as a second-class project, and KDE users as pariahs. Heck, they got a distro-specific bug in qt, report available here, that completely disables deadkeys --an essential feature for writing most Western European languages. With this bug one simply can't use Red Hat to write Spanish, or Portuguese, or Italian, or French, and use KDE. Notice the date; the bug was opened in the pre-7.2 RawHide days and it is still open as of today.
No wonder they said that they were dissappointed by the use of Linux at the desktop. With glaring bugs like this and the comtempt they show to desktop users by the very existence of such bugs, is no wonder they managed to drive many thousands of people away from the Linux desktop. Now, they want to be a force in schools. Great, until the French lesson arrives. Talk about shooting yourself in your foot
Red Hat: instead of offering this not very bright kind of measures, start listening to your users and get a clue.
-- Look to the Rose that blows about us--"Lo, Laughing," she says, "into the World I blow..."
Im a KDE/SuSE user and doesn't care much about any other *DE so why would I switch? RH has not made themself the KDE friendliest dist out there and the majority of Linux users does prefer KDE(at least what I can tell) so I think they are "shooting themself in the foot":) Besides why would a Mandrake or SuSE user switch they most likely already switch from RedHat anyways;)
First, RedHat announces that they are competiting with other Unices, not Microsoft. Now, they are trying to crush the other Linuxes. What's up with that?
I hope RedHat goes out of business. I love my Solaris, AIX, linux, OS X, etc., and I'm not going to put RedHat on every one of those boxes.
We need to stop the "type of thinking" displayed in this post.
;)
RedHat isn't 'stooping' to low levels overing discounts like this, it's called a good business practice. In a capitalist economy, businesses need to take whatever action generates the most profit for *themselves*, not for a political movement.
I realize that the open source movement and ideology has a tendency to move thought into the realms of political movements and altruistic actions. But altruism has no place in the business world, and our "political movements" will be better off the more linux businesses realize this.
If this rebate offer helps RedHat's bottom line, then RedHat did a damn good thing. If anything, this just makes another linux and open source company that much stronger to fight "the good fight" (if a person cares about that sort of thing.
When we're talking capitalism, competition is good... period. The only evil is deception. If RedHat and SuSe get a little at each other throats, it's only going to help them in the long run. They will either by wiser and stronger, or a weaker company will be gone. Both results are what's best for the consumer.
Sorry, Jackson but SusE-the-bitch is a whining, bleating piece a' 6-fingered webtoed weenie crap. That' explains the 0.025% market penetration Linux has managed. SusE IS everything that is wrong with Linux --- it's a pile a' dogcrap dropped in the road. SPLAT a truck runs over it --- and you Lusr gotta pick up the pieces.......
Participating in the public betas of Mandrake 8.1 and 8.2 was a real demoralising experience. Having betas coming off within 10 days of each other, with no Bugzilla to keep track of bugs (well they have one but nobody ever bother to use it).
The quality of discussions on mailing lists is also very different. I find SuSE and Red Hat posters to be on average much more experienced and less prone to flame wars (plus better sense of humour).
At the end of the day, Red Hat releases are predictable in timing, in binary compatibility (same compiler used until release number changed), and the software bundle is even more up-to-date sometimes (KDE 3).
I liked the Mandrake Control Center in 7.2 but Mandrake 8.x just felt completely unintegrated. The increase in number of packages is partly artificial as well - they adopted Debian's separation of packages into libx, libx-devel and x. About the only packages shipped with Mandrake that I cannot get from Ximian, FreshRPMS (freshrpms.net) or their own website are things like nethack-falconseye.
My twopence,
Michel
Michel
Fedora Project Contribut
redhats and ximians just don't move me.
maybe it's the way redhat keeps pushing it's
rpm when debian debs are the way to go.
not for me.
I thought just a few months ago RedHat announced they would focus there distro on business users and servers? Now they offer a $10 rebate to entice customers of Mandrake and SUSE?
Okay. sure. Free as in AOL CD's
> BTW; get Debian or something else unless you enjoy the instabilit
I thought you hated Open Source, Serial Troller. Make up your fucking mind already.
If you want control during configuration... and you expect the developers and configuration managers to also exercise some control and not take unnecessary risks, then install and use FreeBSD.
Don't Look Back.
geez... Debian isn't all that either. Have any of you people ever tried something simple? Mandrake, Suse, RH, whatever else, it's all bloat. Slow bloat at that. Give gentoo or slackware a whirl and dump all this rpm multi cd bull hockeypucks for "real" linux and not what "they" want you to use!
that was finished in 1999 when the Linux hype started. Since then, most distro driven development has been marketing driven. Having worked for SuSE, IBM, and as a Linux journalist for a while I've been watching this with a certain grief since then. (hm@seneca.muc.de)