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Copy That Floppy? Go To Jahannum (Hell)
andrewdm writes "The Business Software Alliance has a new partner: the grand muftis at Al Azhar in Cairo. The New York Law Journal has an article explaining the new holy(?) alliance between the BSA and the highest religious authorities in the Egyptian Sunni Islam sect. The clerics issued a fatwa (holy edict) against piracy, saying it is "the worst type of theft and prohibited by Islam." What's next? The Pope denouncing mp3's as mortal sins?" The worst type of theft, indeed.
How about Richard Stallman denouncing non-"free software" as the same?
Hire a Linux system administrator, systems engineer,
I would have thought that stealing someone's life, or the lives of many, would be the worst type of theft. Please correct me if I'm wrong, but I think life is more important than a string of ones and zeros.
Of course, those ones and zeros are fun to play with, but still.
So the worst type of theft is the kind that causes the least physical loss.
THEY STOLE MY ELECTRONS!!!
"Derp de derp."
New EULA... Do you accept this agreement that if you pirate this you will burn in hell [ ] No I don't want to roast [ ]
now, perhaps, they will skip the jail sentances for distributing pirated software since you'll be going to hell.
sig - .
Ryan T. Sammartino
"Ancora imparo"
What's worse, the Pope is letting spammers steal from the Vatican -- the Vatican has an open relay, and I wouldn't be suprized that some of the preists are spamming themselves.
Proof? GoogleGroups search of news.admin.net-abuse.sightings for Vatican. Some only reference in the spam message, but you'll find a few relayed through.
--
# Canmephians for a better Linux Kernel
$Stalag99{"URL"}="http://stalag99.net";
I was just starting to like both the BSA and Allah.
that religious Islamic fanatics are perhaps *more* moderate than the BSA.
:)
Maybe the new partnership with Egypt will help the BSA to tone down its image?
I think it's a sad day when I don't know which organization is more extreme
So i guess gods BUY all their software or run something free like linux ... i wonder if Allah checks slashdot?
Ok stupid question, of course Allah checks slashdot.
Can we now expect buildings/businesses that sell copying tools (e.g. CD_RW) to start blowing up?
A modern day witchhunt.
This is not intended as a flame, but as an observation... At a time when the USA is threatened with "holy war" by organized Middle Eastern Islamic terrorists, the BSA induces Sunnite clergy to declare the same thing on copyright infringement?
But then, I consider the BSA a terrorist organization. Terror IS their weapon.
What's next, planes crashing into the homes of people who run LimeWire?
I'm sorry, but this to me is rather like Stalin giving Hitler's genocide policy an endorsement. These same Islamic clergy refuse to unequivocaly condemn the actions of Bin Laden.
=== The price of freedom is eternal vigilance
The rhetorical question is clearly facetious, but let me point out that there's no equivalence: from the article, the fatwa appears to condemn theft of intellectual property, not all copying, e.g. fair use. So maybe it would be more like the Pope condemning sales of pirated CDs...
After nearly a decade of U.S. persuasion and $7 million in technical IP assistance, a new IP law is under debate in the Egypt parliament. The law's authors hope that it will pass before the People's Assembly begins its summer recess on June 30.
FOR SALE, 65 Million like new Egyptians. Good condition, hardly abused. $7,000,000 OBO.
DMCA, Hollings, Palladium. What might have sounded like paranoia is now common sense.
The infidels will pay for their copies of Windows 3.11! Allah will not be pleased...
'mmmmmmmmm.... forbidden donut'
How long until corporations have religions in their pockets to the extent that they can declare any competition to the established business model blasphemy? We already shop around for faiths (note the rise in New Age religion), so how long until major religions (Baptists, Catholics, etc.) have product tie-ins? Get a free KJV (Protestant edition) or Chick Tract with your Big Mac! Get a free Catholic bible with your Whopper Jr.! Amazing.
How can you use my intestines as a gift? -Actual Hong Kong subtitle.
I have to admit this is probably the most horrible thing I've ever read. If anyone is going to hell its the members of Islam who would align themselves with such a terrible organization.
It's so good to know that with religious extremism ever-expanding, the BSA felt compelled to provoke a fatwa to protect their efforts. I'm sure they're already engaged in convocations with other religious leaders to spread the word that all versions of all Deities will strike down the users of "pirated" software. And that "free software" is an abomination before the Lord. And that the Ten Commandments are being rewritten to properly protect Intellectual Property rights, placing it above that "You will have no other God before me" stuff.
I think the BSA should team up with the Boy Scouts of America. They could share an acronym, and add a few lines to the scout law:
A scout is-
Trustworthy
Loyal
Not a software pirate
Helpful
Friendly
Courteous
Willing to abide by legal licensing agreements
Kind
Obedient to the will of Microsoft
Cheerfully paying outrageous prices for MS Office
Thrifty
Brave
Clean - Hard Drive
Reverent
They call me the working man. I guess that's what I am.
Jesus, Mohammad, Buddah and Ra the Sun God have been elected to serve on the High Council of the RIAA.
Nicholas, Patron Saint of Thieves, has been strangely silent on the matter.
GMFTatsujin
- This thing is immoral and wrong, and the church of islam frowns on it. (I.E., the "look, religions usually have associated value + morality systems" meaning)
- We are declaring holy war on this thing; in heaven, it is abhorred by the Lord and unholy over nigh all else, and on earth, the church is excommunicating those who partake in it; you may not do this, you may not consider this, you may not associate with anyone who does this, you may not associate with anyone you know to associate with other people who associate with other people who do this. (I.E., the "kill salman rushdie or anyone who harbors him" meaning)
So: given the political/religious environment in Egypt, and given the sort of person that the cleric who issued this fatwa, and given the degree of extremism that that form of islam tends to take in Egypt, what does this "Fatwa" mean? If it's closer to the reasonable first, i'm fine with that; there is DEFINITELY an entire spectrum of moral gray areas associated with intellectual property theft, but in the end people do have some sort of right to be compensated for art and technology they have given to their fellow humans. If it's closer to the foaming second, and if they are going to ignore any moral gray areas and take an RIAA party line without considering such things as "what is a DMCA", well, i'm a bit bothered.anyone know?
- super ugly ultraman
Hey, I just went out and stole all the money that was being raised to help out those poor orphans, then I broke into the church and took all their religious artifacts, then I visited your bank (yes, YOURS) and took all the money there.
But at least I didn't copy any software!
"Those who would sacrifice essential liberty for temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety."
The top of the list is something like this:
...
1. Software Piracy
2. Stealing from the Church
3. Stealing God's pants
4. Stealing someone's immortal soul
As you can see, the heirarchy starts at digital concerns, and gets to the lesser matters a bit later. Real forward thinking I must say.
- I love animals. I try to eat at least one a day.
What's next? The Pope denouncing mp3's as mortal sins?
Just because something is denounced doesn't automatically stop all people from doing it. Let's see...drugs, sex, smoking, copyright violations(!), etc. Sure, such a declaration may very well have impact on the devout, but I take these announcements more so as a political statement (which is fine) than anything else.
To-do List: Receive telemarketing call during a tornado warning. Check.
Not a butt pirate either.
So, we've got software piracy declared something that will cause you to burn in hell, saying it's the worst of all sins, from one religion, and another religion seemingly shrugs off raping little boys? My gosh, what is this world coming to? So, if I move to Egypt and join the religion there, I can launch my smuggled nuke against some major population base, kill millions, and it's a worse sin if I stole the software to program the missile? Sheesh, give me a break.
The worst kind of theft? Even worse than the kind of theft that deprives the victim of the object you've taken? The stuff folks will believe...
The "cue the foo posts in 3, 2, 1..." posts will commence with no subsequent foo posts in 3, 2, 1...
Will the punishment for this worst sort of theft be in the traditional style of Islam?
Pirate software, we'll cut off the left side of your keyboard.
.sig? Get your own damn
I'd rather they spam themselves than spam the little children!
Please, think of the children!
"'Copyright is my right. Buy a license or you'll have trouble with the police,' croons Egyptian pop singer Shaban Abd el-Reheem on his latest album"
Great lyrics! Can you imagine Metallica singing:
"Respect respect respect our intellectual property!
If...
You...
Copy our music,
You'll be in trouble!
With the POLICE!
With the POLICE!
WITH THE POLICE!"
graspee
I find it hard to believe this edict will change anything in Egypt or any other Arab country. The copied audio casette is a way of life there. I find it hard to believe that the many people who make a living from peddling cassettes and CDs in open markets, street corners, train stations, bus stations and any other place with a crowd will turn to studying the Koran to put food on the table.
I find it even harder to believe that the poor populace in Egypt is going to start coughing up more money for legitimite products.
Most suprising of it all is that a Muslim cleric has taken a clearly pro-western stance about something. I wonder how long he will last.
Ahh, this is too good - finally the future takes a twist even Bruce Sterling couldn't predict.
But seriously, this is actually pretty impressive: the weight of Islamic law behind software theft. I'm not familiar with the situation in Egypt, but in a lot of places (like Saudi Arabia) the penalty for theft is having your hand cut off. First left, then right.
You heard me right: people may be getting their hands cut off for pirating software.
As I've said before on the dot, our choices, in the long run, are
1> To comply with Copyright Law as it stands, whether we like it or not.
2> To change the law to something sane.
It's very much like the War On Drugs - Marijuana is simply not very harmful, grows everywhere, and our jails are full of people doing time for selling a dime bag: even an irrational, impossible-to-enforce law can still ruin lives.
Copyright is heading towards being this kind of an issue, and we need to take smart action to prevent it before we have college students going to jail for their MP3 collections.
And poor muslim bastards losing their hands over a pirated copy of Word.
Hexayurt - open source refugee shelter,
Stealing is stealing... now what was that commandment again...
crazy dynamite monkey
Yeah, only difference is Stallman isn't a dogmatic leader to 2 billion people (see here for statistics). You wouldn't believe how much power over the masses the Pope has. I've seen people flock to the streets and wait for 2-3 hours just to catch a glimpse of his holiness passing by (yes, 2 hours waiting for a 5-second sighting). And people absolutely refusing to compromise on ANY point the Pope has decided on, is totally frustrating.
Plus, RMS's views are definitely more open to debate than the Pope's (or the church's for that matter). No chance of me getting excomulgated for saying RMS is an asshole (which i don't think he is, but anyway).
u've pointed it out it is exactly that.
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I don't understand why every web site needs to set/read cookie, for everything and for nothing. It's ridiculous. It's impossible to find any site that does not try to set cookie.
I'm using Mozilla (1.0RC3), and I think it's great that it can block cookies from those stupid sites.
Everyone should be using browser that can selectively block cookies!
And poor muslim bastards losing their hands over a pirated copy of Word.
;)
Now, just imagine how much money you'll make if you design a good one-handed keyboard...
...oh never mind.
Little minds don't get the difference anyway. Now excuse me while I see a porno about a priest and a young acolyte.
Witness the awe inspiring, gore splattering, all out rumble! Endure the bone-shaking battle of the century! You will not believe what you see this weekend at the Rosemont Horison! The First Church Of Digital Grepping will pit it's strength against old-school Islam! Call now! Tickets limited!
std::disclaimer<std::legalese> sig=new std::disclaimer; sig->dump(); delete sig;
The clerics should issue a fatwa that would completely embarrass the US and the BSA. That should seal these greedy creatures' fate...
S
so let me get this straight...
A religious order has sold out to business interests probably for financial gain.
What's next on Slashdot...a story about the shocking corruption of college sports? LOL
The only thing different about this story is it's Muslims instead of Christians.
----------
ah honey, we're all resplendent - Bill Mallonee
"The Pope denouncing mp3's as mortal sins?"
Same old same old... Whether in corporate America, Medici Rome or Sunni Islam, you can always buy an indulgence and "get out of Jail free". Remember religion is the ultimate vapor ware.
"Academicians are more likely to share each other's toothbrush than each other's nomenclature."
Cohen
Do they chop off your keyboard?
This is an excellent example of an institution using religion as a tool. This seems like a very cynical move on their part, and shows how religion is constantly manipulated to serve the institutions instead of the people. To clarify my point, there is a difference between the institutions of religion and religion itself. Due to Islam's very involved nature (5 prayer sessions a day, periods fasting, etc), the religion & the institution are harder to seperate. Terrorist manipulate Islamic teachings to cast themselves in a positive light, fundamentalists manipulate it to force people to believe in an extremely strict, 'holy' existance. This is just another case of that, though this time there are different reasons behind the move, though in the end it is to merely serve the desires of the religious leaders. I am not against the institutions of religion, but more often than not they twist the words of the teachings to serve their own ends.
"What can a thoughtful man hope for mankind on Earth, given the experience of the past million years? Nothing." -Bokonon
The RIAA, The MPAA, The BSA, The Muslims, The Church of Scientology. . .
These are my friends, See how they glisten. See this one shine, how he smiles in the light.
Copyright infringement IS the worst kind of theft, since it's trivially easy. The BEST kind of theft would be something huge and difficult. For example, stealing all the gold from Fort Knox in the U.S would be one of the best thefts I could think of.
Have you tried turning it off and on again?
I thought the worst possible theft was stealing someones life both from that someone and the people that love and depend on that someone.
Oh wait, I forgot. I'm living in that New World Order that everyone said wasn't coming, no one seems to realize is here now, and unless we refuse to support it, will choke every last bit of life out of the earth in the name of profits.
In this great new order, not only do corporate rights supercede that of humanities, but also the value of corporate merchandise supercedes the value of human life.
I guess that sect of Islam now realizes it's accept the mark of capitalism by agreeing with it in thought or working for it with the fruit of your hands, or you will not be allowed to buy and sell.
Show me an effect without cause and then I'll believe in chaos.
But, my guess is that the editors think we (the American/European majority here) should care because:
Don't blame me, I get all my opinions from my Ouija board.
The link to the article on www.law.com won't display for me (in Mozilla) because I refuse their audience-tracking cookie. The entire article loads (and I can save it and just read through the raw HTML), but then shuffles me over to a "you must accept our cookie so we can enhance your (advertising) experience on our site."
Something else for Mozilla to "correct" for me, someday. Until then... can we just avoid links to this evil lying entity?
At a time when the USA is threatened with "holy war" by organized Middle Eastern Islamic terrorists, the BSA induces Sunnite clergy to declare the same thing on copyright infringement?
I am not a muslim but there is a big difference between Middle Eastern Islamic terrorists and Islam itself.
Islamic terrorists are a group of people who commits acts of terror in the name of Islam. True, they have the support of some members of the clergy but that doesn't make the religion itself evil.
Your analogy is more like saying the Pope is evil because there are anti-abortion terrorists who take his words about abortion being a sin very literally and commit acts of terror against people who don't behave according to their wishes.
So is GW evil for meeting with the Pope while visiting Europe? Is Italy guilty of harboring an evil terrorist?
I'm sorry, but this to me is rather like Stalin giving Hitler's genocide policy an endorsement. These same Islamic clergy refuse to unequivocaly condemn the actions of Bin Laden.
Are you sure of that? Do you have a source you can point me to which mentions the Egyptian Sunnite clergy and a refusal to condemn Bin Laden? Or did you just pull that out of your ass based on reports of some members of some clergy in some muslim country refusing to condemn Osama?
Mmmm.. Donuts
It seems to be commonly believed among /.ers that copying someone elses thoughts or ideas, or representations thereof (such as software, or mp3s) is not "stealing", because it does not deprive the original possessor of their idea. For those for whom this seems perfectly natural (how can you be stealing something if you're not taking something away?), how do you think this concept that copying an idea is stealing, got started?
I can certainly see how it spreads. How many times have you heard a young child complaining "mommy/teacher, he stole my idea!" At this point, the adult would typically go find the person who "stole" the idea and scold them "it's not nice to steal, now come up with an idea of you're own." Although a few would tell the complainer that "imitation is the sincerest form of flattery", which at least hints at the concept that copying isn't stealing, and perhaps could be interpreted as far as saying "if you like something that is copyable, then you SHOULD copy it".
But how did it get started? Who was the first person to say (or think) "he stole my idea", and how did he or she come up with the idea that it was stealing? Was this before or after the phrase "imitation is the sincerest form of flattery" come into common usage?
"Those who would sacrifice essential liberty for temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety."
this just goes to prove my points on how ALL organized religion is truly the WORST thing for the human spirit - as well as it seems to breed stupidity of extremely high levels. and religious people please think before speaking :)
Ave Molech Setting
Hmmm...
Did Armed robery, Carjacking, Fraud or Burglery make the top ten?
Me smells the smell of sardines that are stale.
GNU HOLY WORDS
Allah condones thee anal sex
The mohammedian anal sex must begin
It is of the ass it is of Allah
Young boys have to be raped by Allahians
Towelheads and Ayatullams issue anal fatwah
It is of the Koran to rape and pillages the anal cavities of others.
lets go steal all thier children, then they won't call this the worst kind of theft;)
http://www.bbspot.com/News/2001/11/riaa.html
Calm down, it's *only* ones and zeroes.
I think that seatbelt laws are better example than Marijuana, but it's all the same thing. The wrong thing is being attacked. Same goes for the "War on Terror". We're attacking the end result of some serious problems. 'Terrorists' would not exist if it wasn't for crappy foreign policy that pisses people off. Killing the terrorists (which is what the war on terror is) doesn't do anything but kill people and piss them off more.
Same goes for seatbelts, we write tickets to people for not wearing seatbelts, instead of convincing people at a young age that wearing seatbelts and protecting your own life is a good idea, but that because in this country (the United States), and many others, you are free to do as you wish as long as it doesn't harm OTHERS, then you don't have to wear your seatbelt if you don't want to, but it is a good idea.
I think I lost my train of thought.
What?
Now how in the fuck can I still get cool software and be a good Muslim? When my beloved religious leaders say bullshit like that, I just wanna beat the hell out of them.
-- "Government is the great fiction through which everybody endeavors to live at the expense of everybody else."
As one of the tiny community of Christians here at Slashdot, let me point out that Jesus welcomes all, including black hat crackers and warez fiends, and that far from begrudgingly embracing the above parties as repentant sinners, His views on the morality of the mega-rich software vendors doing things such as sending goons to public schools to enforce the use of their products would probably call for those opposing said megacorps to receive the same esteem He granted to those on the fringes in His own time. (read up on some of the disciples)
On a related note, he would like us to know that Bill Gates is going to hell.(Matt 19:24)
Huh, I always figured the Pope's sysadmins would be infallible.
Muslims are also not supposed to borrow money with interest, so some in the US have set up 'rent-to-own' companies to help Muslims who abide by this buy houses, cars, and other big-ticket items.
Being so adaptable, I presume good Muslims will just start investigating Free software.
Also, as I read these posts, I see a lot of flames against Islam. I am not a Muslim, but as one who was raised in a Christian church, I can see that many high authorities of Islam are like those of the Catholic and other Christian faiths: business people who live well while telling their followers to 'accept their lot in life,' which can mean poverty, paying $250 for an OS that crashes often, or having too many children because birth control is a sin.
Most of the top religious leaders represent their own interests first, just as the BSA represents the interests of software makers who want to cling to 'shrink-wrap' licensing model, and the RIAA represents those who want to be paid every time you hum a tune to yourself.
One should not automatically equate Islamic leaders' statements with the beliefs of all Muslims. Just as they condone or refuse to condemn some actions we find mighty upsetting, Western religions have condoned and remained silent on some nasty shit over the centuries (like, say, the Nazi war on Jews).
it IS the worst type of theft... MUCH worse than, say, stealing someone's kidney or left nut!
IANAM, but I wonder what would have happened if who ever actually bound and transcribed the first copies of the Qur'an had declared publishing rights and refused to allow the distribution of low cost copies or even public prayer.
If they had today's laws then the words might have passed into the public domain some 75 years or so after the Prophet rode to heaven, but presumably the actual author (Allah) isn't dead (Nietzsche aside) so they could try to hold on to it indefinitely.
Okay, that may be a silly way of looking at things, and I guess you could say that Allah or Muhammed would'nt have allowed this, but seriously, shouldn't religous scholars and men of god be more aware that ideas are not really property (or at least not the property of man)?
The concept of intellectual property is a (useful if done right) legal fiction constructed to encourage innovation (patents, copyrights) and reduce deception (trademarks). Even if you send people to jail I don't understand how breaking such artificial and clearly secular laws can be considered so fundamentally sinful.
My next sig will be ready soon, but friends can beat the rush!
This is a really sad thing. Religion has a very bad name in Western civilization due to the many atrocities and lesser injustices committed in its name. Please people: don't confuse the religion of Islam (or Christianity or Buddhism or ...) with these ridiculous petty power plays. If you are curious, look at any original religious texts and you will see a lot of reasonableness that just isn't reflected in the behavior of the clergy/priesthood/whatever. A really interesting statement about this problem is at: http://www.bahai.org/article-1-1-0-1.html - pick your language.
Helping with organizational effectiveness is our job.
It does not surprise me that some Mullahs, or holy clerics, rebounded from being leaned on by the BSA with outrageous doctrines about IP theft. But what is in store for the poor, unfortunate users, when it comes time for their punishment? Remember, Sunni Islam still believes in an eye for eye, or in this case, they chop off your hand for being a thief. That would make touchtyping much slower, and second offenses are likely to leave you up the creek without anyway to paddle or type on your keyboard.
It is really not surprising. The Islamic faith has a definite political component. Muslims would like to live in a society where is Islamic Law is the law of the land. This is part of the political process. Egypt needs to comply with the WTO's TRIPS agreements (Trade-Related Aspects of Intellectual Property Rights). This is just one way to help the government out. It is really a moral statement that is taking place in a political context. (Note that the Christian faith is much less connected to politics than Islam.)
> Qul hua allahu ahad, Allahu assamad, lam yaled, walam yulad, walam yakun lahu qufwan ahad
Mecca lekka hi mecca hiney ho. Mecca lekka hi mecca channi ho. Inka dinka doo!
And poor muslim bastards losing their hands over a pirated copy of Word.
Yeah, that's normal and acceptable because it's part of Islamic law.
But the BSA trying to buy a law in Egypt?!? Break out the trolls, boys, we're going to Cairo!
I just had a long, emotional, drawn-out argument with the newsgroup rec.music.makers.songwriters over this very issue.
It's my opinion that piracy, murder, and theft are three very different, distinguishable offenses, and have to be treated as such. To call piracy an act of "theft" is just as dishonest as calling drug use an act of "terrorism".
The crime of theft has very definite implications. Theft always causes the victim to lose property. Property carries value, so value is always transferred from the victim to the perpetrator.
The mechanism of piracy is much different. Piracy does not act on existing property; it may or may not deprive the victim of future sales, or of the ability to make money in the future. There are acts of piracy which cause no financial harm at all; the pirate, for example, who illegally copies a piece of software, doesn't understand it, can't get it to install, and deletes it, can hardly have been said to have done harm to the company. Therefore, unlike theft, value is not always transferred from the victim to the perpetrator. The size of the victim's estate remains constant; the size of the perpetrator's estate grows.
Thievery is the act of illegal taking; piracy is the act of illegal copying; murder is the act of illegal killing. You can argue semantics and say that killing is the taking of life and copying is the taking of information, but I believe that to take - that is, to transfer ownership from one party to yourself - is very, very distinguishable from killing and copying.
Are there any real-world implications of this semantic debate? I think we're seeing them right here. This islamic cleric is issuing his fatwa against piracy not based on the harms of piracy, but based on the harms of theft. Falsely associating one concept with another prevents people from really reasoning out the implications of each concept. Let me put it this way: if piracy were legalized, much of corporate capitalism as we know it would be over. But if theft were legalized, society as we know it would be over.
There is a BIG ethical difference between stealing someone's real property, and refusing to acknowledge that a copyrighted work *is* real property. I'm not saying that one is ethical and the other isn't; I'm saying that there's a difference, and we'd better be prepared to tackle the two abstract concepts separately.
"Beware he who would deny you access to information, for in his heart he deems himself your master."
A professor at the University of Mississippi is giving a
lecture on the supernatural. To get a feel for his
audience, he asks: "How many people here believe in
ghostses?" About 90 students raise their hands.
"Well, that's a good start. Out of those of you who
believe in ghostses, do any of you think you've ever seen
a ghostse?" About 40 students raise their hands.
"That's really good. Has anyone here ever talked to a
ghostse?" 15 students raise their hands.
"That's great. Has anyone here ever touched a ghostse?" 3
students raise their hands.
"That's fantastic. But let me ask you one question
further... Have any of you ever made love to a ghostse?"
One student way in the back raises his hand.
The professor is astonished and says, "Son, all the
years I've been giving this lecture, no one has ever
claimed to have slept with a ghostse. You've got to come
up here and tell us about your experience."
The redneck student replies with a nod and a grin, and
begins to make his way up to the podium. The professor
says, "Well, tell us what it's like to have sex with
ghostse."
The student replies, "Ghostse?!? From ah-way back there ah
thought yuh said "goatse."
--
Mamma look!
I'm not convinced that terrorism (or more correctly jihad) is really a product of our foreign policy - the wars between Muslims and Christians predate the foundation of the United States by around a millennium - and the issues have not changed much: control of the Holy Land.
Hexayurt - open source refugee shelter,
>>And poor muslim bastards losing their hands over a pirated copy of Word.
Another argument for open source software. Not only do you get the source code, you get to keep all your appendages! Free, modifiable and open to scrutiny, no risk of amputation -- OpenOffice, the complete solution.
Disclaimer: AINAM. Also, IANAL, but you knew that.
Some Muslims think that copyright is not a part of Islam.
Become a FSF associate member before the low #s are used
I'm not muslim, I'm an arab. There is a big difference. And I'm not sure I
understand why you include Al Jazeera in your list. It is just a TV channel.
I guess you have to be american to grasp your sense of humour.
Unfortunately taxes I pay may well go to pay your hospital bills if you're badly injured or support your family if you're killed. In this situation, when you're going to be spending my money, I get to have a say in whether you wear a belt or not. Now, if you had a law that said you didn't have to wear a seat belt but if you didn't you had to pick up all of the tab for any injuries to yourself and you're dependents couldn't claim for support from taxpayers that's fine by me. You want this "right" you have to accept the responsibility.
development.lombardi.com
1. It's important to note that a Fatwa is non-binding. In other words, any Muslim could pirate software without fear of repercussion.
2. How anyone noticed that this is the second holy edict released today? The first being RMS's disapproval of UnitedLinux.
You know them. Evangelists, politicians, slashdot editors - whatever they say depends on who is stuffing money in their coffers.
I'm certainly no expert in islamic law, but I can't think of any logical way a cleric could call IP infringement "the worst kind of theft". I realize that the article probably should have been titled "Egyptian Cleric Talks Out Ass", but is there any basis, even within the convoluted logic of sharia, that justifies this position?
-- your Web browser is Ronald Reagan
I would like to point out that in many countries, the real terrorists (eg, suicide bombers, etc) are also operating within the law. I read an article just the other day concerning Pakistan and India saying that Pakistan didn't financially support terror, but they did offer "moral" support. Sounds like, from some twisted national point of view, terrorism is just as legal as the BSA tactics. Granted, the two are different, in that one kills, and one jails, but the similarities are there as well.
Copyright is heading towards being this kind of an issue, and we need to take smart action to prevent it before we have college students going to jail for their MP3 collections.
Impossible! How can that be? You mean, our american college students are stealing? Noooo way !
It's the fault of people outside US. I have the proof to show you:
In the music industry, piracy remains rampant -- virtually all international releases are pirated --
Now, blame it on the Brits, shall we? If you don't believe me, go to a Virgin music store in London, you can see all these pirated american CDs. All international releases are pirated. They said it, it's gotta be true.
Illegality is not part of the definition of terrorism. Terrorism is using tactics the promote fear in the general public to force leaders to do what you want. What the BSA does is promote fear in the minds of the leaders so they pass laws that force the public to do what they want.
This could've gone the other way. If I remember my reading correctly there's at least one statement by the Prophet that it is unjust to earn money by means other than working. It would be easy to argue that charging high markups because you have a legal monopoly on distributing AZT/Britney Spears/Microsoft Office doesn't amount to an honest living under Islamic law.
Whether it would be a sound argument I don't know!
They don't chop your hands for piracy, but you are fined for about 3000$ + prison ... and we are talking about piracy (illigally copied CDs) , NOT downloading warez or crackz or mp3s or anything ...
...
You only get your hands chopped off when you steal, well , you will think twice before doing that again
thank you
Now, this is the quality of made-up story we should expect on the annual Slashdot April Fool's day marathon!
How sad it isn't April 1.
Al Azhar is a University in Egypt, akin to Harvard in US. What's the matter with you haters? Havent you seen how in bed the Harvard law school is with M$? Geezsus n mohmmamed
You heard me right: people may be getting their hands cut off for pirating software.
Upon reading this post, I grew suddenly very sad. As a young kid, growing up, I pirated Sierra games because I had no idea they could even be bought. It was my love of these that made me a programmer, and now, a purchaser of games that I enjoy.
I hate to think of kids in Egypt getting severely punished for being curious.
Many people in the West invite countries like China into the WTO so that they will learn from us.
The BSA is exploiting the worst of the dogmatic leaders in other countries, and is ultimately exploiting the most innocent.
This is a really sad day for people in the software industry.
The question is not about following the law. It's about having the source code freely available or not. Before software became a consumer item, source code came along with software, you could modify it, according to your needs. Today, no matter how much you pay, very few companies will give you the source.
A specific example: I work for a communications company that owns and operates satellites. We want to know *exactly* what each bit is doing, because the slightest failure can (and sometimes does) mean the loss of a hundred million+ dollar spacecraft. Yet, companies that supply software for satellite control do not supply source code anymore. What are they thinking, that we would sell pirated CDs with software for controlling a Boeing HS376 satellite at a street corner somewhere? And it's not a security question either, if you know enough to use the software to control a satellite, you know how to destroy the satellite without using software.
Wait until the BSA wins over the Jehovah's Witnesses.
"We'd like to give you a copy of "The Watchtower" and while we're here we need to conduct an audit of your computer systems"
Your refering to the wrong al-azhar site, use google and find the Al Azhar web site, it's a famous university in Egypt FYI. Apparently this has been lost in whatever hate you have towards anyone not american.
"we write tickets to people for not wearing seatbelts, instead of convincing people at a young age that wearing seatbelts and protecting your own life is a good idea"
From what I've seen, we tend to do both in this country (USA). They need not be mutually exclusive.
Didn't the Grand Mufti of Cairo also align himself and support Germany and the Nazi's during WWII?
unfortunately terrorism is a product of US foreign policy, but also a product of other things as well.
A blog about stuff.
It's sickening, isn't it? As a relatively conervative Christian, I can't believe that these "Christians" don't think for themselves. WWJD is replaced with WWMPD (What would my priest do?), at least with most of the Catholics I know.
My friends and I had always planned (but never got around to) making a "WWDLD?" bumper sticker or t-shirt or whatever (What Would the Dalai Lama Do?)
The idea would be that he's still around to ask (unlike Jesus) and is more likely to be a better role model than more than a few Catholic Priests (cough altarboys cough).
and if I ride my bike without a helmet and get hit you have to pay my medical bills.
or if i eat lots of twinkies and get fat and have a heart attack you have to pay my medical bills.
or if i get aids from unprotected sex you have to pay my medical bills
or if i trip on a staircase aand hurt myself you have to pay my medical bills.
should we require helmets for bikes, and oatlaw twinkies, unprotected sex and staircases.
PS if i dont wear a seatbelt it will cost you less in medical bills because i'm more likely to die, same with motorcycle helmets.
PPS after motorcycle helmets were required in CA the number of organ donors dropped in half.
A blog about stuff.
They may not kill people, but they're perfectly fine with having them kidnapped and detained. Just because they operate inside the law doesn't make their tactics legitimate. Laws are bought and sold, they are created by people whose interests are not those of society, at least to a frightening extent.
Shouldn't this be seen as the BSA encouraging the violation of human rights by other governments? They are trying to get a new law enacted that will have the effect of people being arrested and having their limbs amputated. Shouldn't the US State Department have something to say about this?
It's not enough to bash in heads, you've got to bash in minds. - Captain Hammer
'Terrorists' would not exist if it wasn't for crappy foreign policy that pisses people off.
That sound's just like the wifebeater's claim that the "bitch" deserved a good beating.
So did the Blacks "piss off" the Klan and cause lynchings? Did the Jews "piss off" the Nazis and get what they deserved?
It's the same dumbass argument.
Quemadmodum gladius neminem occidit, occidentis telum est
How's that for a fatwa? So... instead of having to worry about some wacko extremist flying a fully loaded rubber-band airplane into my server towers, we should give'em directions to the RIAA's (or your favorite imbecile association) headquarters.
I thought the BSA considers warez and crackz to be piracy. Is there someplace where they clarify their position on this?
It's not enough to bash in heads, you've got to bash in minds. - Captain Hammer
The level of political bias on slashdot is absurd.
Text from the original post:
"What's next, the pope banning mp3's?"
"The worst type of theft, indeed."
Not to mention various posts about how muslim clerics intend to mutilate/castrate those who pirate software, etc.
A strong argument can be made that pirating is immoral. Islam is a religion that absolutely forbids theft, and taking the product of someone's labor without paying them could easily be construed as theft. Instead of positing counter-arguments, the slashdotters make all kinds of statements as if the prohibition is crazy, fundamentalist, or insane.
Pirating software could be seen as immoral from many more standpoints than the fundamentalist one. Piracy clearly violates many philosophical principles of ethical behavior. For example, Kant's categorical imperative: the software industry could not exist if everyone pirated, therefore those that do pirate are hypocrites, because in order for them to pirate, they require other people to pay and support the industry.
Let me answer one or two objections that are very common on slashdot. I am not a lackey of the software industry, or a hireling for Bill Gates (my favorite), or a secret agent for the RIAA. Even if I were, it logically changes nothing.
... in fact than killing thousands of office workers and plane passengers! Fuck islam. The sooner mecca is nuked, the sooner we are done with the evil that is the muslim "faith".
"Console games individually cost more" -- That's because a console game lasts longer on the shelf than a PC game.
"PC games offer many possibilities console games dont (due largely to storage / processing power issues)" -- Debatable. Possiblities do not a better game make. Though Quake 3 was able to extend it's lifetime considerably through mods, it was a rare exception. On the flip side, console games tend to be more original in concept and execution. There's a reason Super Mario 64 came out on the N64 but not the PC.
"The installed base of PCs is much higher than any individual console?" -- This line is a lot blurrier than that of a console. PCs are not game machines. The are machines that happen to play games. Not all PC's can play all games due to lack of requirements. Everybody who has a GameCube, though, plays games. Console games historically outsell PC games.
The PC Game Industry, if it is in a downfall, is mainly because of two factors: 1.) PC's weren't built to play games 2.) The games that are coming out are lacking in originality. There really aren't any 'risktaking' games out there. The last one I saw was Sheep. (I think it was called sheep...)
Getting back to the topic at hand, it is far easier to pirate games on the PC. So what? That isn't digging much into PC Game sales. Why? Very simple: I can go download the demo and figure out if I want to play the game or not. The Game Industry is providing me with what I need to make a purchasing decision. Is piracy a problem for them? Perhaps. However, they are not taking extreme measures to thwart piracy.
"Derp de derp."
We control the computers of this world, even though we don't know it, collectively we are incharge!
We need to start our own religion, premoting values such as individualism and freedom of thought and educate people to understand what this world is coming to, start the motions that will create a movement!
There are dangers completely independent of software here. I mean, it's kind of nice to have the Sunni recognition of the present, but what scares me is the chopping off the hand thing. Unfortunately, a theft is a theft in fatwa's. There's no "degree" of theft. It's either theft or it's not theft.
While I admire the idea that the prevention of theft is a good thing, life has degrees, and fatwa's don't discriminate with degrees. Frankly, there's a big difference if you steal my G.I. Joe (even the one with the kung-fu grip) and you steal my car. You steal my car, and we have issues. You steal my G.I. Joe, and we may still end up making up some day.
Islam should be a religion, not a law. No religion should be a law, but then I come from a country that allows freedom of religion, so maybe it's just me.
Seems that verification would be the tricky bit here: Just because you're caught with a copy of a floppy doesn't mean it's not a backup. At purchase time the seller should tatoo the serial number on the licensee. Naturally the license would then be non-transferable, and people should be held liabel if someone else copies their serial number illicitly.
It stands to reason that people would have the 'SN-tat' ("Syntat") etched somewhere intimate, say on the inner thigh. Since an Islamic man should only be sleeping with his wife, theft shouldn't be a problem, as they share property and therefore his license is hers anyhow.
Just think, this new policy could reduce sins such as adultry as a side effect of people protecting their coveted serial numbers!
Kevin Fox
Well a couple of points:
Firstly a "Fatwa" is mearly an opinion it is not binding in any way. So if a cleric issues a Fatwa as a Muslim you are not bound to it if you do not agree with that opinion.
Secondly this Fatwa is actually wrong because in Islam copyrights and patents are not allowed, there are two reasons for this. The first being that it comes under "hoarding of wealth". The second is because in Islam you acknowledge that God is the creater of the universe, hence the holder of all knowledge and since you are part of that creation you can not claim to "own" any knowldege you gain as it is the result of your existance which of course you owe to God. Just imagine that God is the holder of all interlectual property.
Thirdly the head of the religious institions in countries like Egypt are appointed by the government and are basically puppets and are in no means regarded as authoritive figures with regards to the Koran. As a side note, one of the most respected Islamic scolars is an American who converted when he was 18.
Anyhow I hope that clears some things up, but basically this fatwa is bullshit.
American are just haters.
I'm against software piracy as much as the next person (I'm a developer myself) but calling something that isn't really theft the worst kind is bordering on hilarity. While copying does deprive the owner of revenue, it doesn't deprive anyone of th actual product itself.
Yeah, that and usury - pretty much all of that shit is illegal in some forms of Islam.
a similar fix should work for other browsers.
As the poster further down says, copyright is not allowed officialy by islam. This is the case in Iran where basically there is none. Perhaps this has something this something to do with the "Axis of Evil" not paying for MS licences.
So copying a friend's King's Quest 5 floppy is going go give you eternal damnation, but suicide bombings against civilians in Israel and New York City get you 41 virgins and eternal paradise?
I'm not to familiar with the BSA. Don't get me wrong I have heard of them and what they do. My question is what givesw them the right to enforce these policies.
Perhaps, but nobody is getting thrown in jail for not wearing their seat belt. The worst that happens is you pay a fine, and even then only if you are pulled over for something else first. (around here, anyway)
in this country (the United States), and many others, you are free to do as you wish as long as it doesn't harm OTHERS
Just to play Devil's Advocate... Joe doesn't wear his seat belt, Joe gets badly hurt in an accident, Joe isn't insured, morality doesn't allow us to just write Joe off and leave him for dead, therefore society has to pay for his medical care. Isn't that harming others (by burdening them with an unecessary expense)?
I don't care if it's 90,000 hectares. That lake was not my doing.
If you call yourself a thief and all you do is pirate, you're a pretty piss poor thief, you should learn better kinds of theft.
-JDF
Quoth vkg: I'm not convinced that terrorism (or more correctly jihad) is really a product of our foreign policy - the wars between Muslims and Christians predate the foundation of the United States by around a millennium - and the issues have not changed much: control of the Holy Land.
You don't seem to know what you're talking about. Jihad is the struggle to improve one's condition, and there are two kinds. One is the lesser jihad, which is working to improve one's external condition by working or fighting just wars (which by definition do not include attacks on civilians). The greater jihad involves improving one's morals and personal conduct.
Terrorism is not supported by the Islamic creed in any way. Nor is there any way to "root out" the kind of terrorists which we are seeing these days. These are not plane hijackers looking for some money or a brand new 747. They are people who have been directly harmed by Western foreign policies, to the point where they have nothing to lose. They are literally like upset bees whose last assault results in their deaths. The terrorists that the USA is "rooting out" are dead. But don't worry: You can always make more terrorists by oppressing more people. A certain percentage will always fight back.
What does PBUH mean?
I am guessing "Praise Be Unto Him."
Admittedly if the wording used was "the worst type of theft" or something to that effect, that definitely is a poor choice of words - somehow I doubt they intended digital theft to be compared against the theft of human life.
Bottom Line: They should be acknowledged for taking the correct position that theft is theft and making it clear (at least to Muslims) that digital theft is wrong, just like any other type of theft.
To compare it against Bin Laden or anything else unrelated doesn't make sense - just seems like a way for people to take a quick easy shot at Muslims (I'm not Muslim BTW) or to rationalize their pro-theft/Napster/LimeWire/Morpheus/etc... perspective. One more note: I hate the BSA and their tactics as much as the next guy - let's just be clear on that as well.
Shouldn't the worst type of theft be something like, I dunno, stealing someone's SOUL?
Seriously though - wouldn't it make more sense for something like, oh, stealing food from a starving man, to be a 'worse' kind of theft than this? I seriously hope this is just a bad translation, and that the real meaning is more like 'one of the worst kinds of theft' - otherwise, those clerics need to go have a talk with thier drug dealer(s): because the stuff they're on has obviously gone bad.
man is machine
will we be going to war with the BSA sometime soon?
Microsoft has declared jihad on Java many years ago...
There are a huge number of yeast infections in this county. Probably because we're downriver from the bread factory.
How many warez for an eye patch?
Um, tomorrow's June 1st, not April 1st. Come on, guys.
_______
2B1ASK1
Erm.... bullshit, repoleved. The Prophet Muhammad fought wars for Islam, and that is the tradition in which Jihad exists.
Working a job, doing research - some scholar may have called these Jihad and tried to make a justification for it, but the president is the life of Muhammad, isn't it?
Or do you have some entirely other explanation for the theology (i.e. directly going to heaven if killed in battle - common among religions, but present without a doubt in Islam) and rhetoric?
Jihad is a war for Islam, and nothing else.
Now certainly you could argue that bin Laden and co. have hijacked that concept and are in fact using the cry of Jihad to further their own aims, but let's not be unclear about what a Jihad is: a Jihad is a holy war to defend or promote Islam.
Right now, it's not our foreign policy which causes that war: it's our existence - fundamentalist forms of Islam are completely threatened by our secular, multi-faith society which is dominant in trade and arms.
The Islam of the trading empires, like the Ottoman and those which came before that, indeed, the Islam which defended the Jews against the Christian crusaders, would not be threatened by America except politically.
But the fundamentalists have hijacked your religion (I assume you are muslim) and redefining Jihad won't help a little bit.
Hexayurt - open source refugee shelter,
Imagine backlash of US citizens when the US gub'mint starts hacking off the hands of college students who copy MP3s in their dorm rooms.
cpeterso
Oh god, if only I had mod points!
Your true email is jyamisha@hotmail.com isn't it? I'm asking because I'm a spammer and increasing my sales of printer cartridges to the Muslim community seems like an interesting proposition. By the way, do you have debts that need refinancing? Do you need Viagra or pills to make your penis grow three inches? I have some awesome virgin russian lolitas for you, too.
Unfortunately taxes I pay may well go to pay your hospital bills if you're badly injured or support your family if you're killed. In this situation, when you're going to be spending my money, I get to have a say in whether you wear a belt or not.
I don't like MY money being spent on other people's medical bills, but I also don't seat beat laws. Instead of requiring drivers to wear seat belts, who should require car manufacturers to install massive spikes in car dashboards. This strategy provides an incentive to wear seatbelts. Plus, those who freely choose not wear their seat belts won't waste MY money on medical bills after they are impaled on the massive spikes during their car collision.
cpeterso
Well as a software developer of both Open Source and Closed Source application. You do realize that software development shops need to make money to survice and pay for my paycheck. So joing with the BSA and have them play Bad Guy may be good for the company. Sure there will be a couple of them that will switch do an Open Source Equilivalant. But in the eyes of the buisness owners. They Didn't pay for the software in the first place so they didn't loose anything.
I normally will justify Piricy if you use the product like shareware to evaluate the software before you buy it. And many time piricy is good for a company. I onced pirited a vidio game and I really liked it so when the next game from that company came out I went and bought it. If I havent got a copy of that program I would never bought more stuff from the company. But I am not saying that Piricy should run rampant but in a small scale it is actually quite helpful
If something is so important that you feel the need to post it on the internet... It probably isn't that important.
Nuke all islamic states, hang all popes with ropes, feed scientologists to pigs and the world will be a better place.
Can be found here. The Rabbi also calls it a no-no, but isn't threatening anyone with hellfire.
There are many reasons to critice Islam:
You might say that - in tenet at least - it is intolerant of homosexuality. But then, last time I checked my Bible or a Torah, so were Christianity and Judaism.
But to accuse it, in general, of supporting Bin Laden is outrageous.
I am the first to say that the 'West' is too tolerant of intolerance in the name of tolerance.
But broadbrushed comparisons are outrageous and racist.
I would be laughed down if I said "If Hitler was a vegetarian, all vegetarians must be out to kill Jews, right?" But somehow, when it comes to Islam, the difference between the particular (a person) and the general (a set of religious beliefs, that - last time I checked - did not believe in the taking of innocent life).
Please, please, please... stop extrapolating from a label.
--- My dad's political betting
It's time to Involve God in supporting Corporate interests. I can imagine that bending His word in certain directions would be an expensive endeavor but imagine the power...
It is a sin to lend your music to others. It is unholy to ask for a raise. Which ESPN is the Pope watching?
AFAIK, a kind of justification for chopping the hand off, is that it makes it more difficult for you to steal again... so the same punishment should go for almost any criminal action. (Speed driving? Chop off their right foot.)
--
If you moderate this, then your children will be next.
What isn't immediately obvious about this is that they will use piracy as a reason for killing other people. The holy war against piracy is just an excuse to go to war.
This has got to be one of the funniest stories I've ever read on /. :-)
-adnans
"In short: just say NO TO DRUGS, and maybe you won't end up like the Hurd people." --Linus Torvalds
The theft of a life in the name of your god is the worst theft that can be. For that, there is no possible restitution.
----- LoboSoft specializes in Digital Language Lab
Me, as your highest religious leader call copying software the greatest sin and a couple milion bucks in my pocket from BSA meshallah!
In the event of an almost accident, where some skillful driving that includes the vehicle moving radically to one side of the road and then back very quickly or something like that, the driver's seatbelt keeps him or her firmly in place behind the wheel where they have a chance of maintaining control of the vehicle and avoiding a collision, and the passenger's seatbelt keeps him or her from landing in the driver's lap or obscuring the driver's vision by smashing the windshield into an almost opaque collage of little pieces of glass glued to a sheet of plastic. Accident avoided, everybody's money saved.
I see even classic Slashdot is now pretty much unusable on dial up anymore.
vkg boldly declares: Working a job, doing research - some scholar may have called these Jihad and tried to make a justification for it, but the president (sic) is the life of Muhammad, isn't it?
And continues: Or do you have some entirely other explanation for the theology (i.e. directly going to heaven if killed in battle - common among religions, but present without a doubt in Islam) and rhetoric?
Go directly to heaven if killed in a just cause, or battle (the word which you unequivocally use). Killing civilians is a ticket the other way.
Expansion of the religion through war occurred after the life of the Prophet, and as long as the Caliphs were rightly guided, the "war" was conducted in such a way that preserved not only people's lives, but also their livelihoods (ie. their crops, orchards, etc.). During the life of the Prophet, early battles were fought in self defence, only when necessary (he even had all of his followers leave Mecca, due to persecution, rather than fight). Later episodes involved tribes which had signed agreements with the Prophet for protection (because tribal Arabia was a very dangerous place to live at the time, and a strong central power was very much needed to bring order -- one of the reasons why the time was right for someone such as him to gain power).
One such agreement was with a Jewish tribe, and it was one of mutual protection. But rather than protecting the Muslims, they double crossed them. After successfully defending themselves from the resultant attack, the Muslims attacked the tribe which had broken its agreement. To do otherwise would have been both dangerous and unwise. That is the precedent which I think you are speaking of. That is also what I would call a just cause.
And no, I am not Muslim, but I was once, and I am probably as cynical as you are (which is why I now prefer to say "I don't know" when people ask me about God). However, it should be realised that the history which I have given to you now is the one which Muslims learn, and that matters more than what is true. After all, neither of us can know for certain what happened 100 years ago, let alone 1400 years ago, but we do tend to act on what we learn or generally accept to be true. Regardless of the veracity (or lack thereof) of your statements about the Prophet, your statements do not reflect the history that Muslims learn, and your interpretation of the Prophet's life is not the precedent that Muslims follow.
I do carry one last vestige of belief from my days in Islam. I believe that people universally desire peace, and it is somehow inhuman to desire other than peace. That is why I still say "Salamu 'Alaikum," which means "peace be upon you," and is the universal greeting recognised and used by Muslims all over the world.
Could you explain to me how the Sunni and the Shi'ites came to be?
It's only a matter of time now before the BSA and Al Quedah join forces in an anti-piracy Jihad. Death to the infidel software pirates! Praise Billah!
== Paul Rickard, Editor of The Microsoft Boycott Campaign ====
what do the Muftis' get? Will the BSA perform acts of 'terror' on US companies and further a Jihad against the US? [/sarcasm]
Summary of /. opinion:
Theft of IP: death penalty bad.
Theft of network resources: death penalty good.
they have so much in common.
I am muslim, and am not from the Middle East, anyway. Over there people believe everything the 'higher relegious authorities' say, it will actually stop people from copying cd or downloading warez.
Every muslim hates Jews!
Basically, when Mohammed died, there were two people seen as legitimate successors to him. Those who followed one were Sunni Muslims, and those who followed the other were Shi'ite Muslims.
has the fatwa listed the exact number of tiny infants, crippled, sick and innocents that must be blown to bits or hacked into pieces while still alive that could reverse this and act much like catholics confessions. Catholics love confession time, it allows them to have a free week of sin to look forward to, knowing full well that there is another confession awaiting them. Hell, pun not really intended, if they croak then a mortal man can then 'bless' them and save them. Ain't catholicism great?!
"the worst type of theft and prohibited by Islam."
I tend to view the worst type of theft that is prohibited by Islam is that of Virginity. You can't ever return that stolen item.
x
How ridiculous. I can't believe for a second that piracy could be even near as what is considered the worst theft possible. Forget kidnapping, rape (theft of innocence), burglary, and other crimes, those pirates must hang!
Robort knows all.
Who cares?
Its 2 steps above Scientology when you think about it.
Eloi are stupid, throw morlocks at them!
Your taxes are more likely to pay for healthcare for smokers than for people not wearing seatbelts. Since smokers are a little older, a lot of them on medicare, etc., they are quite a drain on tax dollars. There's also this thing called second hand smoke, which means it is harmful to many other people than yourself. A public smoking ban is much more justified than requiring me to wear my seatbelt. It is the government's job to protect us from each other, but not to protect us from ourselves. That's our job.
The larger burden from people not wearing seatbelts is probably on insurance than taxes; but that's a different story all together.
What?
Don't other muslims hate you?
I thought the Shiites spent their lives trying to kill the bahai's. In the name of all that's holy, of course.
If I recall my history correctly, most of the wars between Christians and Muslims were started by Christians.
Islam does not preach war towards Christians and Jews. Just like Christianity doesn't preach violent crusades to convert unbelievers. Actually, Islam preaches tolerance to those that also believe in the one true god (according to them...remember that Jesus and Abraham are considered prophets in Islam, too).
Religion has been used to justify wars since the dawn of time. "Religion is the opiate of the masses".
--Be human.
I do have a deep regard for the muslim faith.
However, the interpretation of the life of Muhammad varies, I'm sure, as all other histories vary: depending on the time of the analysis, and those involved.
Warlike folks stress the wars fought against Mecca, others, the more peaceful and conciliatory aspects of the story.
It's clear to me that, for a long period, Muslim civilization was considerably ahead of European civilization in nearly all regards: arts, culture, even war - the rights of the individual, the rule of law, in science and in mathematics.
But that was when it was a trading culture, open to other nations and ways of life, when it protected diversity rather than attempting to crush it under the jackboot of fundamentalism.
Nothing wrong with the religion, but somebody left a bunch of idiots in charge.
Hexayurt - open source refugee shelter,
brillant, simply brillent
... that religion stops a thinking mind. Consider those suicide bombers: Do you believe they'd do that if they had the capacity for intelligent thought?
Those who horde knowledge are committing sins. Knowledge is to be shared and not to be horded by a person or a group. The problem with muftis is that there are plenty and in Islam there is no single authentic schools of thought. Which means that many people can have many opinions and unfortunately many muftis don't know as much as they should. There are a lot of people that go around calling themselves mufti who are not or should be be allowed to issue fatwas. This is the reason why it is so easy to buy fatwas. They are a dime a dozen.
Allah bless Egypt! God bless America!
Let this be a lesson, my conservative buddies, that if the right-wing wins here, this is what we'll have here too, in the good ol' USA.
Vote for Green party candidates wherever and whenever you can...
The clerics issued a fatwa (holy edict) against piracy, saying it is "the worst type of theft and prohibited by Islam."
:)
It seems that when they say "piracy" they're thinking in terms of the sort of theft that happens on the high seas - where generally pirates board ships, kill all the men, rape all the women (and then throw them overboard), take the children as slaves, and subsequently sell the ship and its accompanying valuables. This is indeed the worst kind of theft. Completely unlike breaking software licenses (and it's worth noting that when you buy software, you basically buy a box of air with the hopes that there's something inside that you can find useful - the contract that you sign by opening the box (?) negates even that.) by giving a copy away to a friend for free, annoying the company that made it because they counted their chickens before they hatched.
Clearly, there's been some kind of misunderstanding here.
"No problem. I have the capacity to do infinite work so long as you don't mind that my quality approaches zero."-Dilbert
How long before the BSA, RIAA, and MPAA convince lawmakers that piracy==terrorism?
Happy Fun Ball is for external use only.
Given a choice between Hell and a US Federal Prison, I'll take Hell. ;)
Just because it CAN be done, doesn't mean it should!
It's all part of a deal so they won't get audited.
Killing terrorists - as opposed to what? Doing what they ask? Can you hear yourself saying this?" Do you know how stupid you sound? You cannot appease a person to whom any means is open. What they want is not what's wrong with terrorism. How they go about getting what they want is what's wrong, and what needs to be discouraged at all costs.
As far as not wearing seatbelts goes, if you don't wear your seatbelt, you sure as hell ARE doing me wrong - if you get into an accident and smash your head through the windsheild - then MY tax dollars (or my medical insurace premiums if I was unlucky enough to have the same insurance as your lame ass) pay to keep you on life support for another 20 years. Helmet laws are another thing - statistically, you're more likely to be paralyzed if you're wearing a helmet. If you're not, you're more likely to be an organ donor. Which is a GOOD thing. They should make motorcycle helmets ILLEGAL.
Nor is there any way to "root out" the kind of terrorists which we are seeing these days. These are not plane hijackers looking for some money or a brand new 747. They are people who have been directly harmed by Western foreign policies, to the point where they have nothing to lose. They are literally like upset bees whose last assault results in their deaths.
Then I guess our only recourse to stop them is kill them before they kill us.
This is the flaw in THEIR reasoning. By acting in such a desperation mode, they force us into an equally desperate mode - which means in order to ensure our survival, we MUST kill them, and anyone who gets in the way. Had they not chosen this path, a whole lot of suffering of innocent muslims would have been averted.
By pointing the finger at us for an earlier act, we can just as easily point the finger back at them.
When BSA members "steal" GPLed software, they are clear copyright violators. BSA member companies have very restrictive licenses they force on their users and almost never grant them the above mentioned freedoms, which is all that would be required for them to take advantage of the vast pool of superior software now available. It does not take much to comply, but BSA members are not known for doing much for their users.
Most people would call BSA member companies hypocrites for using GPLed code. Assides from calling the GPL unAmerican, Comunist and other silly things, the BSA likes to portray itself as the programer's friend. They say that software copyright complience is the only thing that creates a financial reward for the programer and that sofware would not exist without that reward. Their use of GPLed code shows the lie of all the billions of dollars of propaganda they generate every year. It would be great if BSA member companies would use the GPL and GPLed code, but they tell me other things.
As a former Boy Scout, yes in America, I can say that the BSA's policies have little to do with the Oath I took. That's why the original joke was funny. Self reliance was a Boy Scout core value. I don't complain about the BSA's attempts to make people comply with their goofey licenses. I don't need them or their crappy software.
Now, piss off.
Friends don't help friends install M$ junk.
vkg said: Nothing wrong with the religion, but somebody left a bunch of idiots in charge.
gotta agree with you there.. but it's more like this: nobody's in charge. there's no accountability, and nobody really knows anything. The Islam of today is a very confused and bewildered shadow of what it once was, and that's why so many Muslim children do silly things like run into enemy fire when there's no chance that they could inflict any damage. They have lost hope for this world, and just want to move as quickly as possible to the next. That is partly because of the current state of affairs in the world re: foreign policy, and I doubt it will get better with the latest "purgings." It is also partly because of protectionist policies that were implemented as a coping strategy against the Western media. Sortof like the protectionist policies that Bush seems to like playing with today.
Call it whatever you want, but the important bits of the GPL, that which differtiates it from the BSD-style licenses, are every bit as arbitrary as any other license. Both GPL and the proprietary packages that you deride are fundamentally based on the concept of intellectual property, whether or not RMS or his cohorts acknowledge it. In fact, they're both based on STRONG IP. I don't think anyone can reasonably argue that GPL's means (explicit code sharing each and every time) or its ends (the utopian vision that it is) would occur without a legal requirements for sharing. If I come across some code, I may very well choose to distribute binaries and not bother to share my code because I'm too lazy (or enjoy the competetive advantage). The fact that the GPL insists on this requirement says as much. What's more, I assert to you that the requirement for sharing of code is an odious one for many people. These people include software developers (who are denied code reuse...one of GPL's supposed visions), entrepreneurs, and even customers (those that might benefit from proprietary code that can be said to infringe an a GPL product).
No, the GPL is a license and it only differs from the other licenses in its particular form and the relative restrictiveness (in terms of verbosity--not necessarily, and often not, on the AGGREGATE). Your arguments for the GPL, that one can merely choose not to obey it and face "copyright law" can be used just as easily for proprietary software. What? You don't like our license? Fine don't obey it, we don't care. Oh yeah, and if you don't agree to it, well it's copyright law's fault that you can't use or copy my software. Totally disingenious.
If you don't care, then you wouldn't have the EXPLICIT requirement to do otherwise in the GPL. If you don't care, then you wouldn't whine and have your leader bark at and threaten anyone that is even IMPLIED to have violated the GPL's terms.
Here is an organisation that represents publishers of material that could be characterized as pandering to the basest human instincts. Sex drugs and rock'n roll. Much of the change in the moral compass of the west is as a result of the popular media, music, movies etc. Movies regularly portray sympathetically thieves and cheats. The most popular music is nihistic and anarchic. Musicians and movie stars are probably the most disfunctional of humans available, and they are sold, adulated by the studios and music publishers, because they sell.
So here is this organisation then trying to say what is right or wrong. Too late. You created this society. And made lot's of money along the way. You have burnt the structure upon which you could operate profitably.
Derek
ac said: "Then I guess our only recourse to stop them is kill them before they kill us."
Won't work. I'm not even talking about reasoning here. It's just human nature... heck it's just nature. What happens when you back any animal into a corner? It fights back ferociously. It has nowhere to run, nothing to lose that it hasn't already lost. If you think about it, there's no choice but to fight. It's the same with the people that the USA is turning into terrorists. The actual people who committed the acts are already dead. The others are being forced to fight even though they might not want to.
Oh my you are silly. The point isn't to do what they want, you simply remove the environment that allowed for them to exist in the first place. That environment is a direct result of our involvement in conflicts in the Middle East and other such things. Pushing our agenda in other parts of the world that don't like it, tends to piss people off enough that they will do crazy things. It's not appeasement, it's doing the right thing in the first place.
Your statement also doesn't make sense, since what they "want" is all of us dead. I don't see many ways to go about that without killing people.
What?
You know that commercial where the dog is looking at the bill of his owners car insurance and starts cracking up uncontrollably?
Thats me right now after reading this news bit.
This schiznit is too funny!
Heh.... trading nations, good, empires, usually bad.
One of the tragedies of Islam is that it did not get kicked out of government: Catholicism has got a chance to age disgracefully, falling into squalor without causing too much damage because the people running nations stopped taking orders from the church long ago.
Islam, to my eye, seems to be in a similar decline, but still has massive power in government: the result is a religion in decline has turned into a culture in decline which is turning into many millions of people with little hope.
I think that the star of organized religions is falling. I hope that the Muslim world has the sense not to go down with that sinking ship.
Hexayurt - open source refugee shelter,
Just something funny I saved:
"The earth is flat, and anyone who disputes this claim is an atheist who deserves to be punished." [Muslim religious edict, 1993 Sheik Abdel-Aziz Ibn Baaz Supreme religious authority, Saudi Arabia]
1st: The leader of the Azhar isn't selected by the religious organization's memebers. He is appointed by the president (since the 1960's I believe).
2nd: There are so many rumors in Egypt that the miraculus sun of the president made a multi-billion wealth starting from his own "daily allowance" and now owns at least 10% in every major company or factory, if not 100%. He gets the 10% in return for relieving the businesses from bureaucracy and red tape. This could include of course M$ Egypt.
3rd: In several ocassions the Azhar leader(s) complained of finding "statements" in newspapers attributed to them even though they never made it (mostly in favour of the government or newpaper views). The newspapers simply ignore requests to publish any denials of these statements.
4th: These leaders are technically ignorant and know nothing about the industry. They give you a statement based on the facts you present to them. If you give them twisted facts, they will give you wrong statements.
5th: The average family income in Egypt is $90 to $200 US dollars. Very few minority (may be less than 3%) has an income about that. Most families cannot afford to buy computers, let alone pay to support the poor US SW companies. If they ever manage to buy computers after paying for food, rent, gas, utilities, transportation, tuition, etc..., they won't be able to by SW or more rediculously (for them), pay to upgrade it.
Simply said, SW companies have to stop thinking about sucking money from poor countries because they will spend more than they will get, unless they simply want to deprive those poor countries from using their software altogether. They just should consider it "charitable contributions" to the poor.
$5 US (25 L.E.) is a big amount in egypt and can feed a family of 5 for 4~5 days (on inexpensive food). How much is M$ XP?
People don't use Office because it is a quality word processor. They use it because it is a defactor Standard. How it got that way was not be excellent engineering. It was by malicious manipulating of the Operating system intended to destabilize competative products. (Was it Lotus123?)
Photoshop became a defacto standard in part by buying their main competition "Photostyler". Buying the competition is fundamentally an agreement between two parties to fix prices. (Provided the companies together have enough market control to do so.)
So it isn't clear in my mind that the Price has come about honestly. Enforcing these licenses is a bit like arresting somebody for stealing from a fense.
AIK
That those who fight piracy and die for it get ten virgin floppies?
Or are they soiled by the catholic church first?
Wow, the BSA has sunk to a new low. Using a religion to further their agenda. And it's labeled as the worst type of theft. What the hell happened to killing someone for something? I thought that was the worst type of theft. So they've bought off government representatives and now religious leaders. I can see it now in church on Sunday...by the way IANAMOI (I am not a member of Islam)..."Piracy...is the work of the devil...piracy...makes you a bad person...PIRACY MAKES YOU THE WORST OF SINNERS!!...CAN I GET A WITNESS?!?!?!?" At that point, I will be waiting at home for the BSA, armed to the teeth. :)
Why yes I am paranoid! Thanks for asking!
I will commit an act of fair use -- quoting m-w.com:
Main Entry: terrorism
: the systematic use of terror especially as a means of coercion
Main Entry: terror
Etymology: Middle English, from Middle French terreur, from Latin terror, from terrEre to frighten; akin to Greek trein to be afraid, flee, tremein to tremble -- more at TREMBLE
1 : a state of intense fear
2 a : one that inspires fear : SCOURGE b : a frightening aspect c : a cause of anxiety : WORRY d : an appalling person or thing; especially : BRAT
3 : REIGN OF TERROR
4 : violence (as bombing) committed by groups in order to intimidate a population or government into granting their demands
synonym see FEAR
Main Entry: scourge
Etymology: Middle English, from Anglo-French escorge, from (assumed) Old French escorgier to whip, from Old French es- ex- + Latin corrigia whip
1 : WHIP; especially : one used to inflict pain or punishment
2 : an instrument of punishment or criticism
3 : a cause of widespread or great affliction
The BSA fit definition 2 of terror quite well. They are a scourge on people who use software, even if they are using it legally.
Idiot. Al is Arabic for The. Get used to it. Besides, al Jazeera is a news source, just like CNN, BBC World, blah blah blah. Sure, they broadcast videos that American news stations wouldn't.
As for Al Azhar, it is a mufti organization (like priest, pastors etc.) which issues fatwas. Since the constitution of Egpyt is not forced to follow the fatwa. But to me, the fatwa is correct. Piracy is stealing. If you don't want to pay for Windows, don't use it. Don't want to pay for Office, don't use it. It is not like you would die not using it..
Besides, what's Al-Bundy?
Actually the wars in that region go back thru all of recorded history (since long before it was ever known as "the Holy Land), and have always had a great deal more to do with control over critical overland trade routes than with anyone's religious artifacts.
~REZ~ #43301. Who'd fake being me anyway?
Christianity has its share of atrocities, to be sure, but Islamic expansion has almost always been via the sword.
I'll start by saying, I am a muslim myself.
...) or ex-USSR friendly (Syria, Lybia ....)
In my quite long experience, I have discovered one could get any 'fatwa' from anywhere depending on how much you can pay, or how much pressure you can put on.
99% of muslims in the world live under dictatorship's of one kind or the other and of varying degrees of terror. The 1% left live in the west, like myself, where we are free.
In those dictatorships, friendly or not to the west, 'holy' institutions are part of the big ruling 'minority'. Anything they say cannot be taken seriously under any circumstances.
They are usually used for internal consumption. Do not forget that in most arabic/muslim countries we have 'analphabetism' rates of 50+ percent. These fatwas targets those and even those who can read/write but are too stupid to check the 'Kuran' (Bible equivalent for muslims) for themselves, or simply think about it.
As a matter of fact, you will be able to get a 100 different contradicting 'fatwas' for the same question depending on which type of dictatorship you ask: is it US-friendly (Egypt, Saudi Arabia
Now if the Catholic Pope did something like this, I'd find it sadder because he IS free! Our guys (muslim authorities of any kind) would say the sky is not the sky and swear Earth is flat if asked to do so, because they are either corrupt of are terrified of saying otherwise!
Forget kidnapping, we need to go after music fans. Their reign of terror must end.
alternatively, instead of going to JAHANNUM, apt-get install nethack and go to Gehennom. If, that is, you are truly a strong adventurer.
It is really pitiful how /.'ers just read an article, then spout out whatever biased or media taught view you have grown up with without even bothering to check the facts. But then, this is slashdot, "news for nerds, stuff that matters".
I am a Muslim, and in case you wonder what I think about this announcement by the Egyptian Al Azhar scholars (BTW, we do not have clergy, we have "scholars".. and their opinions are their own, they are not that of any muslims unless he chose to based on his belief if they have a strong enough argument or not).
Cetainly, Islam strictly forbids theft and has strict penalties for those who commit it. However, in Islam's view (which is to say, in my own understanding of Islam's view on the matter), theft of the floppy itself IS a theft. Wither you are panaltied for that depends on the circumestances. Theft of what is inside the floppy/CD/book is an entirely different matter.
In Islam, there is nothing called "Intellectual properties". Islam considers that when you sell something, it is sold and is considered a full property of the buyer, unless there was an agreement restricting the use of the sold material (ie, EULA). This restriction by itself is subject to to another check to see if it holds to the general islamic principles (ie, in your terms, if it is constitutional).. which is another subject entirely that needs a more than a few paragraphs to discuss.
Thus, to some it up, the scholars at Al Azhar are right in my humble opinion in forbidding the theft of a floppy (or a CD or a book). However, to forbid the free takings of the knowledge contained in the floppy/CD/book is another subject entirely, and they have to come up with a prove that for it, a prove that I have not seen.
fact: fatwas are merely personal opinions in the form of religious edicts. fact: fatwas are not binding on anyone except the person who issues them. fact: mullahs or imams or sheikhs or muftis do not have authority, paralell to the pope or any of the hierarchy of the catholic church. fact: no such hierarchy exists in islam and muslims believe they are all individually held responsible for their actions, regardless of which fatwa they might choose to follow. As for the substantive issue at hand, religion is like pottery and each person can mold it to her satisfaction. So, to say that infringing copyright is a sin, a grevious one at that, is simply one person's bought opinion. Islamic law has many priciples and this opinion seems to abandon all of them. There is no clear text from the Koran regarding copyright - only theft. There is no clear (or even obscure) passage referring to intellectual property rights; no such rights exist in classical Islamic Legal theories. That's the strongest source for a Muslim jurist. The rest of the sources provide little relief, nothing referring to intellectual property. This "new" property right in Islamic law can only be classified as "shifting in the winds" Islam. So, when Muslims were living under Socialist rule, some muftis claimed socialism is inherantly islamic. Then, under capitalism, some muftis claim that it is inherantly islamic. Although this form of islam is convenient for its followers, it is dishonest. The mufti from al-azhar, once classified as the center of islamic learning and now literally a joke among muslim scholars, has been dishonest, to say the least. I wonder if dishonesty is a crime that leads to hell???
vkg said: Islam, to my eye, seems to be in a similar decline, but still has massive power in government: the result is a religion in decline has turned into a culture in decline which is turning into many millions of people with little hope.
A people which aspires to practice Islam properly will always desire Islamic government and Islamic jurisprudence. For Muslims, and perhaps for others as well, this is a viable path to economic freedom in this world. Islam has well developed economic theories which do not require positive interest rate loans for consumption smoothing, and which do not allow individuals to leverage capital in the way that they can with majority stakeholder ownership in the stockmarkets of today's Western countries. It (correctly, in my opinion) denounces paper money as undermining the concept of ownership. Clearly defined ownership is a very central concept in Islamic economic theory. It is actually quite interesting, and if you want to read from someone who knows what he's talking about (such people seem to be quite rare, both within and without Islam), try googling for Umar Ibrahim Vadillo. (Someone mentioned him earlier in the comments for this article, and he is behind initiatives such as the Islamic Gold Dinar, since he is trying to re-establish fair trade based on stable currency.)
- terrorists are bombing innocents weekly
- innocents are starving to death world-wide
- Pakistan and India are on the brink of war
- any number of things more worthy of consideration
This is disgusting. Its like worrying if the icing on your cake is thick enough when you know your neighbor is starving.Why don't we see more stories about Muslim's that condem violence and terrorism?
Anarchists never rule
Kill em All!!! -- P. Buchanan
Photoshop is $609, the GIMP is free. 3DS Max is $3495, Blender is free. Times New Roman costs $95.99; Elaborate custom fonts rarely take longer than an hour for a competent individual to make.
The problem with trying to find fair prices for software is that there's really very little to base it on. They always quote development costs and overhead, but in reality, these aren't legitimate factors given the scale software companies work on. Total overhead for a medium-sized company is right around 3$ per product. (I know because I worked for a software company.)
Development costs are largely up to you--you can either write the software yourself (Free) or hire two hundred programmers at 50K each and potentially get a similar product in the end.
Programming is complex and time-consuming, and many of the higher complexity systems DO take an entire team of master programmers to realistically complete. Almost none of the software you see on the shelves is of this level. In reality, you could expect a competent coder to put out something with as much utility as Office (Excluding it's extensions and plug-ins) in around six months working full-time. I personally have written formatting programs and accompanying graphics manipulation routines in a single day.
If a company sells it's software for $99.95 off the shelf, it can expect around $40 on it's end (Assuming it doesn't have Microsoft's ability to strongarm distributors). $35+ of that is pure profit on the sales end. And when you're pushing the kind of numbers that Macromedia, Microsoft, Adobe and Novell get on that, you're making back your entire development cost in about a week, out of a product life of two years.
Adobe charges an arm and a leg for their product not because they need to, but because they can. I *know* their product is not that complex because I have replicated many of it's more complex capabilities in my own programs, and know how to replicate most of the rest. (The only thing I couldn't do is get it to run as fast)
If I could write it in six months, we can expect a full-time professional could also do so. That's 30K total development cost, assuming he's 60K a year. And they sell hundreds of thousands of copies per year, and even more when you include site licenses and bundling.
They charge what they do not because it's fair, but because they want to get rich. They have the best product, and they leverage it with an unfair price.
Some software has justification for higher prices, particularly 3D packages (Low user base, obscene complexity), but half of the stuff you can buy off the shelf could have been made in a month. (The only software industry that can truly claim expenses is the game industry--games have the most complex memory, graphics and logic requirements of almost any kind of software, and most good companies need squadrons of pro artists and modellers to put a game out)
Cairo is literally littered with copied VHSs and music casettes, not to speak of copied audio CDs. Wonder why they chose to put a ban now, after thirty years of blatant copying.
http://www.natcath.com/NCR_Online/archives/050302/ 050302a.htm
Please don't use your +1 bonus for rants. Especially, off topic rants.
Microsoft's empire is built on Word, not on Windows. It was Word that made Windows happen. Word, um, 2.0(??) for Windows 3 was wildly better than most of the other word processors at the time. It was fairly fast, quite easy, and very powerful. Its main competition was AmiPro (which was very nice but had a strange interface) and Wordperfect, which at the time hadn't yet been ported to Windows. WordPerfect was arguably technically better: it was much more stable, and you could write huge manuscripts with it. Word would choke past a certain point, but few people wrote documents that large, and it never became much of an issue. And WordPerfect's interface was abysmal.
Word cleaned their clocks, and sold A LOT of copies of Windows. Microsoft's later tendency to exploit their OS to muscle into new markets and extinguish any potential competitor is a relatively new development. At the time, they didn't have the market power to pull off that kind of move. It was Word that gave them that power.
People use Office because it is the standard, and it got to be the standard the old-fashioned way, by relatively fair competition in the marketplace. Microsoft has been coasting with Office for years now, but the original basis of their dominance isn't terribly shady. They won that battle fair and square.
Mind you, even back then, there were some undocumented functions being put into Windows that only Office could use.... but having been there at the time, it really felt like Word won through a MUCH superior interface and feature set, not because it ran a little faster. I was a mighty Wordperfect master, and also ran Word and Amipro regularly, and I honestly liked Word the best of the three.
I cannot argue, however, that their pricing is fair. It is monopoly-level pricing and is ridiculous. However they happened to get here, they're exploiting it ruthlessly now.
Does the software cost more than the hardware?
If so, the answer is "yes".
In his novel "NOIR".
Copyright owners get to do anything they want to violators. Not nice.
Nah, they'd remove your devices for replication...
Xix.
"Everything is adjustable, provided you have the right tools"
>What's next? The Pope denouncing mp3's as mortal sins
>
While refusing to really do anything about the child molesters running around as priests will be viewed as one of the biggest jokes in human history....
I know that. That's why I defined what terrorism was, and then pointed out that what the BSA does is something *different*. See?
...we'll be back with more sports after this message...
"Piracy is stealing"
No its not.
But thanks for being a tool. Johnny, tell her what wonderful consolation prices she's won!
Its an audit from the BSA! Yes, the BSA is there to help you! They'll help you be compliant as only a terrorist group can. Yes, the BSA. Know it. Love it. Live it.
NEXT!
It should be said that actually, the issue is not really theft according to Islamic doctrine, but adhering to and accepting an agreement. Essentially, when an agreement i.e. EULA has been made, it must be honoured.
Not that theft is not a sin ofcourse.. but I think the part about not breaching contracts / keeping one's word / honesty is probably more accurate.
Same story for all the MX records for vatican.va.
Because, copying anything isn't piracy... attacking ships in open sea is piracy!
Cheers...
In the west, we take the place of faith and clergy for granted. Islam is not a "holiday and special occaision" religion like christianity (or even judaism), rather an all-encompassing life affirming practice.
:).
:)
:)
I think that it is good that this Sheik spoke out against piracy. I don't think that many westerners can relate, however, many of us could care less what our religous leaders think
As for this fellow belting out "I hate Israel"... We are all entitled to our opinions
God bless, which ever god or gods you may or may not believe in.
-jcw
BTW, not all fatwah's are taken seriously. A high ranking mullah from egypt also declared supermarkets as being against islam (One chain in particular had a major impact on commerce at a local bazaar) and Ayatollah Kahmeini (not Khomeini) in Iran declared that Coca-Cola was satanic... Both fatwah's were greeted with scepticism, especially the Ayatollah's.
Hell, Times New Roman, that ubiquitous font, costs $95.99.
Then how come Microsoft are offering it for free download? (Not that this affects your point.)
GROGGS: alive and well and living in
We're dumb all over; a little ugly on the side.
Bwahaha.. just like a bunch of fucking sand niggers. put 1000 of them in a room and you might find half a brain between them..
dumb asses
The mufti is appointed by the government. And the government here is not exactly, ahem, how shall I put this, a perfect representation of the people's will.
In any case, the mufti will say what the pols tell him to.
Add this up with the fact that MS has the IP police here all stitched up and you'll begin to see where I'm going.
The IP police get tipoffs directly from MS; they get addresses and expected number of licenses/machines that they can expect to find. And let's not call them tipoffs. Let's call them directions.
It can get pretty bad. We're working on setting up a small LUG round here, and I actually met with a contact in the MCIT (IT ministry) about getting them to consider linux. 2 weeks later, they signed a massive deal with MS, upgrading all their boxes to XP.
Do you have any idea how frustrating that is?
Are there any journalists willing to look into this? I hear that sleaze sells rags; plenty of that here.
Blearf. Blearf, I say.
I had to read that several times. I can't believe you would be such a low life as to express the opinion that stealing anything is ok. Screw you asshole - how do you feel about stealing GPL code and putting it in commercial software? I think you just changed my entire attitude on this matter - up until now I respected GPL although I totaly disagree with it. From here on out, F it, I'll steal all the GPL that's convient and put it in every piece of commercial software I write.
Thanks for clearing that up for me.
For all practical purposes Al Jazeera has served as Bin Laden's mouthpiece.
Given the views pushed on Al Jazeera, and the proven effect those views have on the security of the United States, Al Jazeera could probably be legitimately considered an entity whose very existence threatens the safety and security of the citizens of a sovereign country. Destroying such an entity is therefore probably well within the bounds of international law.
The theory of Islam, the Koran, political power distributed via Imams and religious leaders is very good, in some ways better than christianity.
When Microsoft started marketing Windows 3.0 they said it offered unprecedented reliability, a universal platform upon which anyone could build a software application. I think we all agree that the actual implementation left a lot to be desired both technologically and idealogically.
I say in no uncertain terms the *implementation* of Islam is repressive and oppressive, can anybody name one predominantly Islamic country where pork is openly and widely available? Where alcohol is openly and widely available (despite the fact the Koran DOES NOT FORBID alcohol, just excessive drinking)? Where there aren't significant calls for Sharia Law? Malaysia, Indonesia, Cyprus, Chechnya, Bosnia. The faulty implementation of Islam is spreading like Microsoft Windows 3.0 with its co-operative scheduling.
I put it to all that the theory of Islam is pure and whole, but the actual implementation encourages terrorism and *yes* condones binLaden. Just look at Palestine, hundreds of binLadens committing suicide bombing. If binLaden is killed there are thousands to take his place willing to give their lives for their cause, like Palestinian suicide bombers.
Christianity is also quite pure in theory, but in implementation we have the KKK and David Koresh, but these violoations are nowhere near as widespread as Islam's implementation. So do we regard theory or implementation as more important? Looking at /. bashing Microsoft all the time it seems that implementation is far more important than theoretical ideals and marketing.
In summary, the theory of Islam is pure, the implementation is evil. To fix this implementation, how to you convince Windoze user to linux? Enlightenment is one way but only the elite would be intelligent enough to understand. How do you change the way of thinking of 1x10^8 Islamic Joe sixpacks? The only way is war.
A caveman dreams of being us, the incalculable power and riches. We dream of being Q, then what?
Ok, so this would be the last nail in their coffin of credibility, right?
You see? You see? Your stupid minds! Stupid! Stupid!
A people which aspires to practice Islam properly will always desire Islamic government and Islamic jurisprudence.
Then I fear that Muslims are, at least until a different form of Sharia (right word?) comes to the fore, doomed to poverty and strife.
I mean this quite seriously: although I do believe that there are interpretations, forms of Islam which are well suited to the modern age, the forms of Islam which currently predominate are so out of step with the social, technological and political realities of the age that I fear the only way they can survive and remain internally consistent is war against time.
Any philosophy which relies on an "inside" and an "outside" is unsuited for the modern age: we are becoming one world, through trade and communication (beneficially) and through shared problems like the environment and AIDS (maelificly). The forms of Islam which sharply discriminate against non-believers have no future because, at the end of the day, most people are non-believers, and are not going to convert except by force.
So unless one can find a form of Islam which is open enough to modernity to cope with a multivalent, diverse society and culture - to cope with other systems of belief like science and the remains of the other world religions - and not just to cope with them but to join with them in a spirit of brotherhood, I think that Islam is eventually going to be destroyed as a political and social force.
A great proportion of the world's current conflicts are caused by just this problem: Islamic people trying to attain Islamic government in places which have a mixed population: what do you suggest is a good solution to this problem?
Should these Muslims emigrate to Muslim nations? What if their countrymen have no wish to live under Islamic law?
This is not an abstract question: this is a battle being fought all over the world, which has been fought in Indonesia, Morocco, Kashmir and so on.
This link between religion and political dominance is destroying Islam.
Hexayurt - open source refugee shelter,
Those backward Muslims. How low can they go, right?
I've not seen the fatwa, but I suppose by "worst kind" of theft, they mean theft for the sake of desire, not necessity. It's one thing to steal a loaf of bread because your kids are hungry, and another to download the latest Eminem because you just don't want to pay for it.
This is my post. There are many others like it. If you don't like what you read here, go try one of the others.
Wonder if they'll start lopping people's hands off for copying MS Office or the latest Britney Spears album.
To those who might have overlooked,
There is always a political bias to everything. Slashdot like all things human is far from objective. Some of think technology is more important than money or power. However we might realize the unholy alliance of all three. I dislike money, I dislike companies meddling to create a world best suited to them, I want a world best suited for playing with toys. I want playing for the sake of playing. I have no interest in wealth, power or fame. Just really cool stuff. The BSA should not be talking to religious organizations and vice versa. It is using the influence of the church to achieve a specific business, political and social belief. That is as dangerous as it gets.
Option 1) Isolationism. Choose to live under your own form of laws, your own rules, which can be derived from your religious values or whatever you want. If you choose this route, do not expect that you will be able to make much money on trade, or be able to take advantage of the modern offerings of the world. But you can subsist, grow your own food, and so forth.
Option 2) Compliance with international standards of conduct and morality and membership in the international community. This option means that you must forsake terrorism, violence against civilians, many forms of oppression and discrimination and so forth. These tenets may conflict with your cultural and religious values. Tough. Compromise. Everybody else has to. If you don't want to, see option 1, or expect to have war made upon you and your people.
So it's quite simple you see. Nobody is forced to commit murder. There are certain peoples who you can reasonably argue are stuck between a rock and a hard place - the Palestinians have a tough lot, in the sense that nobody (Israel and the Arab world included) seems to want to help them develop a real economy or political infrastructure they need to choose option 2 and they can't choose option 1 due to the limited land and resources available to them. However, they have had quite a few chances to move into option 2, and have repeatedly refused and rejected attempts to give them independence, economic support and so forth. This is a special case, again.
The vast majority of the Arab world, however, have these choices available to them. Note that people were free to travel to Afghanistan and live their lives according to sharia and so forth since they didn't enjoy life in their countries of origin (Saudi Arabia and so on). But when you enforce your moral code on others, and act on it within the boundaries of their nations by slaughtering civilians because of your frustration with foreign policy, OF COURSE you are provoking a war of prevention against your entire community (radical Islamists).
These people still have Option 1, but they don't want it. They want to FORCE their way of life on the rest of the world. Well, FUCK them. They will have to come and do it over my cold dead body, because as soon as they set foot on my country's soil, their lives are forfeit. Survival dictates nothing less. But don't twist your perceptions of the world such that you place DEFENSIVE actions by a peaceful nation on the same moral ground as the slaughter of civilians in terrorist acts by radical Islamists. Their hands WEREN'T forced, contrary to your assertions.
You people need to learn to deal with your own. If you don't like getting slaughtered, perhaps you should consider not creating terrorists within your own religious institutions (see for example the Saudi/Wahabi religious schools around the Arab world). Though I do not blame Islam itself (that would be fairly silly - a religion may have many practioners and many forms), it is quite clear that the Arab/Muslim cultural and religious millieu is directly linked to creation of terrorists. We are not creating the terrorists.
The arguments you are likely to follow up with about frustration created by 1) support for the Israeli state 2) support for the Saudi regime 3) previous support for dictatorial states like Iraq within the Middle East are all fundamentally flawed.
Take argument 1. We all know that Israel has done bad things to Palestinian people at certain points in time, and likewise with the Palestinians to the Israelis. So arguments about victimization are all emotionalist trash. The fact is a bunch of borders got drawn up so that two people who weren't able to cohabitate in the same space could co-exist within a small nation. The "right of return" is never going to happen and is no more correct than throwing out all the Palestinians from the West Bank and Gaza. Past issues, invasions and wars aside, the Palestinians could have the West Bank and Gaza and their own government, and if they would play by the rules, disavow terrorism, and respect human life (see option 2) they could have plenty of international aid monies as well. That's more than ANYONE has a right to, and it's a fucking privilege that you should receive such support. This one could go on and on with finger pointing, but that's useless - everyone else wants a peaceful settlement except for the Palestinians and their purported backers in the Arab world (who notably have demonstrated that they don't really give a fuck about solving the problem by refusing resettlement of refugees for the last 50 or so years).
Now argument 2. Awww, you don't like the Saudi regime. You prefer what again? A benevolent democracy? Did I hear a radical Islamist government? Ah, I see. You want to disrupt the flow of oil to the infidels because you are a radical Islamist and you don't like the infidels. Self interest and preservation makes this one clear. The world needs the natural resources - energy and information are the key components of the world economy. If you work through the system (see option 2) you would discover that the rest of the world would be willing to support democratization of Saudi Arabia in exchange for guaranteed oil flow. If the rest of Saudi Arabia doesn't care or doesn't agree with you, tough shit - ever heard of tyrrany of the masses? Or go to Afghanistan (see option 1).
Argument 3. Oh yeah, do we remember something called the Cold War. Yes, lots of right wing dictatorships were supported by the US government. This was sensible foreign policy. This saved lives. The alternative? The Soviet government infecting the world with fascist Soviet-style communism. The death of democracy, free will and free thought. Clearly this was the morally correct action.
So you see the arguments are all wrong. Broadly speaking, foreign policy is used where necessary to protect the interests of the citizens of the US and of the rest of the free world and the community of nations that accept the principles of this free world. Are mistakes made? Yes. But if your response is to kill our people, expect us to kill you back. Quid erat demonstratum.
More about your last statement: That seems to push towards a funny area. Should we outlaw people on welfare from having babies because that harms the rest of us, and costs us money? It's a tough issue because of how it affects. 'Society' doesn't necessarily pay for medical care if I get in a car accident. My insurance company will, which my employer provides, so it will probably cost my employer money, etc, etc. But then you have to think, maybe I saved you money by getting in that car accident and dying, instead of living a full life and contracting a serious disease that costs millions and millions to take care of instead?
I don't think there is any clear cut way to approach the issue, it's just that seatbelt laws are so rarely considered controversial that when someone mentions it people are like "duh, seatbelts save lives, so who cares if they make you wear it or not", to which I say, what comes next? Eating healthy saves lives. Will I get a tick for eating a snickers, or something with a little too much grease and fat? In each case I cause physical harm to myself, not to mention if I smoke or drink, etc. That physical harm, in turn ends up costing other people a lot of money. I think smoking should be the first to go; since it does directly cause physical harm to others. Anyway, it kinda opens an ugly can of worms.
What?
Shi'ites as it is currently seen did not exist in the days of the prophet nor in the life of Ali, his nephew.
The last "khalif" of the 4 khalifs after the prophet was Ali. The 3rd one (Othman ben Affan) was killed at the hands of the enemies of Islam (early khalifs were so popular and just that they didn't use protection to protect themselves from their people, they were protected the the people's love and respect). His successor (Ali) didn't pursue for the killers as there was a big controversay in the far regions (at the time, it was that far) from which the killer came (these regions were basically angry because Othman sent them rulers they didn't like and he wasn't aware of that problem, rumors in these regions lead to anger and groups of them went to Othman to complain to him, as he wanted to wait and here the other teams defence, rumors between these groups made them angry and one of them quickly killed him). So, Ali didn't want to have a civil war specially that these regions were just fresh with Islam, but the tribe and companions of Othoman insisted on having the killers found and punished, they also demanded that Ali be removed from the govenorship and a relative of Othoman wanted to be the Khalif (see: it was basically a political reason). I don't remember the exact details, but then the muslims divided into 2 groups. Those who sided with Ali, and those who sided against him. Those who sided with Ali were mainly from Iraq/Iran were he lived big part of his life teaching and giving "fatwa". When the time for a war came, the enemies of Ali played a trick, they raised the Qoran on tips of spears (claiming that they don't want to fight and want to use the Qoran as the source of judging this problem). Most of those who sided with Ali were cheated by the trick and refused to fight and insisted that Ali and the family of Othoman solve it peacefully (the family of Othoman were after the Khalif position and political power) and they withdrew from Ali's army. Then a third group (called AlKhawarej) decided to solve the problem themselves by killing both Ali and his political opponents. The group who was sent to kill Ali succeeded, while the other group couldn't achieve its object. Those who sided with Ali regretted that they withdrew from his army and felt they share the blame for killing him, and those who killed him regretted that they did that and went too far in expressing their repentance (even away from Islamic rules). Those who were Sunni remained Sunni. But some of them (because they knew only Ali as their Scholar, Mufti and as an ideal and didn't get the chance to see or deal with the prophet) became followers of Ali only. They gradually introduced a pyramidal religious body in which the Imam is the most sacred and considered a sinless person whose opinions come directly from God (this is not in Islam and is not approved by sunnis, any muslim whatever was his position or race is a human being equal with other muslims in rights and duties, no one is sinless). The shites reject the muslim scholars and companions who contradict their (the shiite) opinions. They pray in a little different way than the sunni do, and some of them even went far in re-allowing things that were forbidden by the prophet (specially for-joy-time-limited-marriage).
The siite are not only 1 group. They are so many, the most wrong of them are those who claim that the prophecy should have been to Ali, not to Mohamed and that angel Gabriel cheated on God and delivered the first message to Mohamed instead of Ali forcing God to accept Mohamed as his prophet?! This is far from healthy minds as angels simply can't cheat God or defy his orders.
So, current Shiite are mainly the people of Iraq/Iran who sided with Ali after his death, they regret that they defied him in his quarrel with Othman's family, and some of them blame themselves till the end of the days for that. Some of them go too far by celebrating this occasion evey year by hitting and hurting themselves (which is forbidden in Islam) till blood leaks from their bodies. They are not all the same, but mainly a lot of their opinions and actions are wrong according to Sunni muslims and ligitimate sources of Islam. Since they started as fresh muslims who relied on pioneer muslims to get their knowledge, their ancestors had no right to form their own islamic rules and beliefs.
That's a 'ticket' for eating snickers, unless you're in a heavily wooded area, then you might get a tick.
What?
Wrong Piracy is theft. Specifically, theft upon the open sea. What you are calling piracy, is in fact, copyright violation. A copyright violation is a civil, not criminal matter. At least it is that way currently in the US. By continuing to call copyright violation, piracy; you are granting ground to those who oppose and oppress us. Stop it.
The rest of what you say is correct though.
Just a Tuna in the Sea of Life
Marijuana does less harm than alcohol, it's just illegal because of stigma, same as being gay used to be illegal. It took 50 years to destigmatise being gay and for those changes to propogate to the law.
A caveman dreams of being us, the incalculable power and riches. We dream of being Q, then what?
As a political force, that is. People should be free to believe in whatever they want. But the central core body of Religion is only generally interested in two things. Power and money. Political power is the worst thing Religion can have, after all, look at the messes in Afghanistan, Pakistan and India. These people are ready to drop nukes because their respective Gods hold too much power.
Blog Prophyts - Right On, Man
I've heard this so many times. Does anybody have a comprehensive list of what's wrong with US Foreign Policy or is it classified or censored and therefore unpostable on /. ? Especially for the sake of the younger ones among us. Let me start off the list:
The US support of Israel
The actions of the CIA before watergate
US troops in Saudi beating the crap out of Saudi cops
the list continues someone please...
A caveman dreams of being us, the incalculable power and riches. We dream of being Q, then what?
My own sense is that corporations have always had religion in their pocket.
This is what religion essentially is. It's a deal between the tribal chief and the witchdoctor. Witchdoctor says spirits say obey tribal chief. Tribal chief gives the witchdoctor a comfortable life in return.
Fast foward a few thousand years to Christianity. Bishop of Rome (aka Pope) crowns Charlemagne (of dubious genelogical lienage) Holy Roman Emperor.
New Holy Roman Emperor says Bishop of Rome (Pope) is head of Church; obey him or you die at the hands of his solidiers. (Also forbids marriage by priests out of fear that children would inherit the property of a newly very powerful Church).
Prior to this, bishop of Rome had claimed priority over other bishops on basis on Peter's tomb and various other claims (including one forged document) with only mixed success.
Fast forward to South American plantation holders that have problems keeping the peasants in line (and have political enemies). They're quite willing to make donations to the Little Sisters of the Poor if the local Bishop will condemn their rival planation heads and the labor unions. Better yet, make one of their children the local bishop.
Religion IS in the hands of the South American plantation holders, the McDonalds of the Religious World, &c where ever it is an important local political force.
One of the problems is that there really seems to be a God, or a Supreme Being, and this causes many people confusion. Many people unfortunately believe that they need to obey these guileful liars posing as holy men in order to be saved. Not so! Secretly suspect God's not to crazy about world religious leaders falsely claiming to have authority from him.
A caveman dreams of being us, the incalculable power and riches. We dream of being Q, then what?
Have a look at this webside whitch says the complete opposite:t s.html
http://www.murabitun.org/WITO/copyrigh
Not sure if you are trolling or serious, but your points on history are reasonable and well taken.
The purpose of law, in my opinion, is to create a just structure for society and to minimize damage from certain types of behaviors to society as a whole. This is one of the reasons why fair use is protected under general interpretations of copyright law in the US-- that the harm to society from preventing fair use would undo the general benefits that the copyright system was designed to bring about (which include the enrichment of culture). When a type of harm is fundamentally different, its ethical implications are different, and also its systemic societal implications are different as well. These both stem from the different natures of the harms done.
Piracy has the potential do cause harm if it blocks enough revenue from the original creaters of the art to prevent future art from being created. One could argue that it has the potential to rob society of some enrichment, but the same is true of overly restrictive copyright laws.
Even most court decisions will point to an attitude that copyright and patent laws are designed to create an intellectual and artistic commons which can then be reused, and help to enrich our technological and cultural lives. That these laws fail to do this miserably with regard to software as the copyright terms have been extended again and again, and source code does not have to be filed with the government to qualify for protection (as unfortunately applied from the Bern conventions) are rarely taken into account.
There are ethical problems with software piracy. I see the largest ones being:
1: Piracy denies market-share to competition, thus leading to stronger monopolies and higher prices (every pirated copy of windows denies Linux a chance to compete, for example. Same goes for Photoshop, Office, etc.) because people tend to pirate industry standard software. Also in this light, anti-piracy efforts by Microsoft might be the best thing to happen to Linux.
2: Piracy perpetuates the same problems in the system with regard to the social harm of an unballanced copyright system. It is better to support Open Source than pirate if you do not agree with the concept of intellectual property as it is currently enforced.
In essence, theft causes harm to given individuals. But piracy causes harm to society in general, and not in any way limited to the "owner" whose claims his work is being "stolen." In fact, in many cases, it may actually help the "owner" eleminate competition by reducing their markets, and thus the real victim is not the "owner" but his competition. At the same time, the "owner" in insisting on the divine infallability of his intellectual property rights can cause the same or greater damage to society. It is here that theft and piracy are irreconcilably separate.
LedgerSMB: Open source Accounting/ERP
Osma bin Laden will attend LinuxWorld saying "Linux is free so I won't blow your ass up!" Then walk over and hug Richard Stallman.
I'm sorry, but I just don't like the government protecting me from myself. That should be up to me. They can protect me from you, but I can take care of myself, and I'll thank them to stay out of my business.
They sure did a good brain-washing job with you ! "Repeat after me, allah is the big source-code master." "Please steal everything in my shop as really there is no difference between what I make and a lump of rock, it's all god." Remember free will ? FREE YOUR MIND AND YOUR ASS WILL FOLLOW
What would my Priest do? What the hell is that? A bumper sticker for NAMBLA?
/^[A-Z0-9._%+-]+@[A-Z0-9.-]+\.[A-Z]{2,4}$/i
vkg wrote a bunch of insightful stuff, including: So unless one can find a form of Islam which is open enough to modernity to cope with a multivalent, diverse society and culture - to cope with other systems of belief like science and the remains of the other world religions - and not just to cope with them but to join with them in a spirit of brotherhood, I think that Islam is eventually going to be destroyed as a political and social force.
I think, but do not know for sure, that there are people who understand Islam well enough to revive it from the present dark ages. If I find such people, I would cautiously support them, but so far I have only found a few people who see Islam the way I see it, in a way which emphasizes the reasons rather than the rules, and who I would esteem to be capable of effectively building the infrastructure to bring success to Muslims.
In my opinion (as I mentioned in an earlier post) the problem is that Muslims require a capable leader who actually understands Islam and doesn't just "talk the talk and walk the walk". The Catholic church was not ready to solve the problems of statehood, and neither are the present "leaders" (puppets) of Islam.
It does not seem entirely appropriate however, at this stage in my life, for me to offhandedly dismiss the linking of church and state. The USA has done very well by separating church and state, but Islamic countries have also done well in the past using the model of "the church is the state" (eg. the Ottoman Empire).
I am not talking about the Taliban here, since AFAIK none of them had really undergone any kind of formal schooling about the reasons and context surrounding various aspects of Islam, and therefore had only superficial knowledge of the "rules", and perhaps not very much insight into the reasons, or the methods.
What I am talking about is a non-discriminating society based on a truly fair economic model, which by its very nature does not allow monopolies to form, but encourages and enables individuals to participate in a capitalist economy in a way that is fair to all parties concerned, and provides mechanisms to help the fiscally disadvantaged along the way. And which also completely does away with the need for positive rate interest, taxes, and paper (fiat) money.
That last sentence is a pretty good explanation for why there are powerful people who want Islam to fail miserably. Then people can say of Islam, as they now say of Socialism: "It was tried, and it just doesn't work."
hi ac, i'm sorry, since you seem to have written quite a lot and got yourself quite worked up about this, and my answer is simple..
the terrorists are dead. there is no black and white, and it is extremely difficult to determine if a person is "radical Islamist".
people are not robots, genders, races, or "sleepers". they are people, and they change over time. the mothers of people who committed terrorist acts thought their children were good natured. the children grew up, stuff happened, and they changed. they still looked the same, and had the same accents, and probably even dressed the same. like that christian guy who was responsible for some horrible terrorist act in the USA a while back. does he fit the "profile" of a terrorist?
this whole profile thing is a slippery slope anyway. what does a radical islamist look like? list the things this person does: he or she probably prays, probably says things like "insh'Allah" or "alHamdullilah" or "bismillah" or speaks arabic, if we are to follow your line of thought. that description probably fits most muslims who are not radical islamists as well!
but islam is not a race, it is an idea, so really the task would be to wipe the idea of islam off of the planet. Being someone who reads slashdot, you probably understand as well as the rest of us how fsking difficult *that* would be. paradoxically, we know, the harder you try to censor a book, the more people will obtain it and read it.
and your (hypothetical) beautiful daughter might decide that she believes in Islam and start wearing modest clothing and a headscarf. would that make her a terrorist? no. would she be flagged as one? probably, in your world.
or perhaps you are talking about killing only arabs. let's call a spade a spade, and suppose that you are in favour of genocide, Hitler style. "kill all arabs, they were no good anyway," perhaps you would say. if that describes you, then i really don't have anything in common with you, and i really hope that you don't come into power.
heh. interesting.. i'll just go tell my muslim friends and they'll go decapitate everyone they know who won't pay that exorbitant tax you mention. or do you think that perhaps your sources are flawed? just a thought.
Beliskner said: Does anybody have a comprehensive list of what's wrong with US Foreign Policy
google found this link. cheers.
In my book the people that pick up the Koran and say "Hey this is cool, there's some profound stuff in here" are okay, if they accept the minor tweaks by tacitly eating pork or drinking alcohol but if their country of origin is a Pakistani madrasa then he has the culture built not around the Koran but around other crap (see above) ingrained in him, the type of guy that believes he's the second coming or something. If your Muslim friends refuse to denounce AL-HEDAYA Vol. II (Hanafi Manual) then they must kill people that don't pay the Jizyah as these people are no longer entitled to protection in an Islamic state.
However just as the mafia doesn't represent every Italian, extremists don't represent Koranic Islam, they represent a very warped Islam (Pakistan madrasa edition) which I say is unreservedly evil. Many say that Islam is spreading, but here's the secret - it's not Koranic Islam that's spreading.
A caveman dreams of being us, the incalculable power and riches. We dream of being Q, then what?
Good job, but I am still left with the impression that you are getting all your information from Google, and not really talking to people to see what they think in person. As someone who left Islam, I know from experience that I am not dead. That, despite the fact that I announced my departure to lots of people, including several Imams (heck, I even pointed to that same tradition of killing people who leave Islam to save them the effort of remembering it themselves).
Just like newspapers, various sources of Sharia (tradition) are granted varying levels of trust. And just like any quote you see in a newspaper, you have to remember that nothing is ever said without a context. Out of context, it probably won't make sense, and it probably would be misleading.
Perhaps you are not aware that there is a whole other side to America (or Canada) that is not such a shining beacon of equality. Do you know how many innocent afghani citizens were killed while "radicals" were purged? I'll bet you can give me exact figures for the number of Americans who were killed. Do you keep track of the human rights abuses that occur in the name of corporate America? Do you know about the history that created the Taliban, Saddam Hussein, and other examples of "Islam" gone wrong?
And it would be pretty naive (given recent history) to believe that non-Americans in America are treated as equal to Americans. Do you know about all the arrests made with secret evidence? Do you really believe that black people receive the same justice as white people in America? Or that Women are really treated with the dignity they deserve in America? Institutionally and culturally, it just isn't there yet.
Just leave Google alone and actually go talk to people, and maybe you will learn that Google doesn't have all the answers. Live a little, and you might discover that even you are not capable of being perfect, even though everyone tries (Americans, Canadians, and Muslims included).
If you were in Afghanistan then you *would* be dead for converting away from Islam. Last time I checked the United States didn't have Sharia law, it has weak beauracratic Christian law imposed by heavy-handed oppressive cops (why the heck were tanks used against WTO protestors I mean *tanks* if Tianneman square happens in the United States it's OK but not in China, hypocrites). The US is far from perfect, but still it's far closer than a *lot* of countries, like China massacring Tibetan monks, jailing Falun Gong Tai Chi practitioners (WTF??) and Brazil torturing and killing poor people for being well, poor, and you thought medicaid was bad. Do you believe the women on rawa who get shot for walking without their husband beside them => were whores could have said, "But I'm not muslim" as a defense. The countries that implement Osama binLaden-type Islam and need to be nuked: Pakistan, Saudi Arabia, Iran, UAE. Read this
Now bear in mind that here in the UK the muslims of Bradford (where the Oldham riots took place) are calling for Sharia law. These are BAD arab-supported people and my gut tells me suicide bombing and sabotage of British military installations to be imminent, it's not that I know anything, it's damn common sense, just look at their website for God's sake, even the KKK isn't this ouvert, I'm ashamed that these people are in the UK. Have a *good* read of their entire website, listen to their audio, see their video, and read the fatwahs of this Sharia Court of the UK. Yes you heard me, these people have a Sharia Court in the UK. I've heard these people lecturing when they came to Ilford mosque, and their rhetoric is worse than Hitler's speeches. Muslims are free to enter churches and hindu temples, but when a non-muslim walks into a mosque especially on Friday I feel like someone's gonna kill me, I don't think even James Bond could infiltrate. Oh why why why does Islam always become like this when the propogation of the religion >80%?Which reminds me my neighbour from across teh street lived in Egypt 30 years ago. There was a crisis involving the Americans, I couldn't make out what it was because she broke down crying. All Americans and British were warned to leave the country, but the warning came too late. After Friday prayers, after a furious speech by the Imam, hundreds of muslims poured out of the mosque looking real pissed, a British man was in the wrong place at the wrong time, several muslims grabbed his right arm and leg, several more his left arm and leg. They pulled and tore him apart, severing his limbs. He died. She broke down crying again so it was difficult to make out, but it was something like because the mobs started looking for all the Brits and Americans so they broke into her flat with machettees looking for non-muslims to kill, but fortunately she had anticipated this and had sought refuge in her neighbour's flat. The next day she and her British husband left and claimed asylum in the UK.
More recently my friend whom I've known since I was 5 was supposed to go to India and Pakistan with his good good friend who was so nice to him called "Sheikh Omar" - yes that one, I know 2 people that went to the same school as Sheikh Omar. In India they were supposed to meet with my friend's Uncle, a Brigadier in the Indian army. There was a last minute cancellation and my friend couldn't make the flight. If he made that flight he'd be dead, and would be on the Daniel Pearl decapitation video (available for download on Kazaa). He's already informed the FBI and given a full report so this is on the up and up.
So the next time you suggest that I'm "just quoting from Google" you might want to think again. After all you have to know what you're looking for to find what you're looking for unless you try the "Are you feeling lucky?" button.
Many people on /. know people that died in WTC, well I indirectly know the people that actually did it. Small world, eh? I think think this makes me qualified enough to comment on the evils of Islam's most popular implementation.
As for who created these problems and the history of the Taliban, Mujihadeen, native American Indians, British, French and Spanish(wipe out the entire Mayan race WTF???) colonisation, yes it's an unfortunate truth that every colonial nation has committed heinous crimes against many others, except for Tibet, Hinduism and Buddhism, the three most dissed religions. Immigration has worked because the immigrants' religions were malleable, Hindus would go screw it and eat American beef steaks, Scottish immirants would forget haggis and eat Pizza Hut, multiculturalism was working so well... until Islam came along. In my office canteen a woman wearing a bhurka was sitting there saying I shouldn't eat pork, one of our managers replied, "If you don't like pork, the airport is that way". I'm glad to see the native culture is adapting to resist Islam in this way, the same way Picard treats a Klingon completely different than anyone else. Before the British divide and conquor techniques were used these types of militant muslims didn't exist. Ultimately Britain is to blame for WTC by segregating Hindus and Muslims in India by creating a feedback loop especially in the muslims by telling them they were "outnumbered and repressed". But then without Britain's colonistaion would America exist at all?
You speak about corporate rule, and yet the SEC knows that if it doesn't regulate them these corporates will destroy themselves, just look at Enron. Better the devil you know.
In WW2 Winston Churchill knew that the Japanese were going to attack Pearl harbour, but they didn't tell the US because they knew that the average US citizen doesn't know or care about anything unless NY gets nuked or something, so that's exactly what you got. This is why bad stuff keeps happening to the US, maybe you should have a complaints box at the white house which actually makes a difference, but then that's not possible because it'll never get more ratings than WWF. Don't believe me? Well OK where's the USS Nimitz right now? Where's the USS Kennedy? Where's the S. S. Essess? Which one's the odd one out? Heck I don't even know, the only time I'd notice a big international event is when somebody gets nuked or the world trade centre falls down, even now. This is why I'm pretty sure a lot more peope knew about WTC before it happened than are owning up now.
About 150,000 Afghanis, a handful of Americans (I don't remember exactly). Although the Afghanis do remember the B-52s NOT bombing I think Gardez city (I can't remember - the one before the Taliban fell back to Kandahar). 150,000 people is nothing, 2,500,000 Hindus were massacred in Pakistan, DO YOU HEAR THAT IN THE NEWS??? Because muslims speak out due to their religion being strong like Scientology, whereas hindus and buddhists are quiet and shy and just want to make money. Look at the actual poor people in Cambodia in the profoundly tragic Discovery channel filmreal documentary The Land of the Wandering Souls. What the heck happened to protecting the weak?Well Islam is strong and that's why people don't want to hurt it. Loads of Hindus die, who cares? CNN is blaming the Indian government for the dead people in Gujurat. How did this start? 2000 muslims surrounded a train and burnt everybody alive. How dare the international media tries to blame the hindus? That's like the (RI|MP)AA making computers illegal and then being surprised when there's a civil war. Oh yeah geeks are sissies like hindus so if computers are made illegal geeks'll just rant on /. and that'll be the end of it. If (RI|MP)AA kills RMS in an "accident" EFF will collapse, he's irreplacable, his moral viewpoint is unique. Only stupid people attack Klingons
I've proved my point, read the middle of this post. Heh maybe when this post is indexed by Google people will use *this* post as a reference. I'm not perfect, heck maybe if everything was perfect there would be stagnation like in the Japanese economy, 0% growth is nothing to be ashamed of in my book, but, well.... Maybe conflict and oppression is necessary otherwise we'd have unrealistic isolationism and decadence as in the movie Demolition Man.A caveman dreams of being us, the incalculable power and riches. We dream of being Q, then what?
There are laws on the books for bicycle helmets.
If you eat lots of twinkies then you didn't listen to federally funded research and FDA and AHA and AMA doctors.
If you get AIDS from unprotected sex than you have not paid attention to publiclly funded health classes in school, and free STD clinics that give out free condoms.
My taxpayer money goes out to all of those.
If you don't wear a seatbelt and die, first, you die(bad enough) second, your family would need the free counseling provided, and perhaps a welfare check every so often as now you can't earn money for your loved ones.
Marijuana is not illegal just because of its stigma. What about if you take smoke marijuana and then go driving? In that case it's worse than alcohol. Lets say you ran over some people, and then hit a tree, the reason it's illegal is to save you(and potential victims) from things like that.
"Marijuana is simply not very harmful, grows everywhere, and our jails are full of people doing time for selling a dime bag: even an irrational, impossible-to-enforce law can still ruin lives."
Why open the can of worms?
Okay, let's not bring up the fact that it causes much much higher risks of lung cancer, let's ignore the fact that it's a "gateway drug" and CAN pull the user into harder stuff like coke. Let's also ignore the fact that it can cause permanent brain damage to the frontal lobes if you take it before you're 15. Let's also ignore the diminished ability to remember longterm things with prolonged use.
What I want to bring up is DUI. It's not a good idea to smoke pot and then drive. It has worse effects on your driving than a pitcher or two full of beer. Not only do you lose your braking reflexes, but I have friends who close their eyes while driving, other times trying to play "tag" with the other lane.
People have died because of this, and stoned drivers. If fatalities can be prevented by a nationwide ban, then so be it. After all, a human life or two or dozen is worth more than a bunch of people getting high, right?
A caveman dreams of being us, the incalculable power and riches. We dream of being Q, then what?
I bet he's some Xpian asshole (they are all KKK members and Nazi lovers, you know, especially that Pope guy) trying to bury any reasonable Muslim voices in spiced ham. Spam isn't Halal, you know, so it fits the profile. --Goober Flagwaverly
I'm not Muslim, but I have seen a great outpouring of denunciation by many legitimate Islamic religious authorities. I've even run across several learned discussions about the nature of Jihad that specifically deal with the choice of targets and means (briefly, some clerics say that the Pentagon was a legit target, but the presence of non-combatants on the airplane disqualifies even the Pentagon attempt as legitimate Jihad).
Some of the most vehemently anti-American and anti-Zionist mullahs have made it clear that the WTC terrorist actions were no more "Islamic" than the Klu Klux Klan is "Christian".
You should be wondering, "why didn't the news sources I have access to carry this news?"
When you figure it out, you will become enlightened. If everyone figures it out, the Shrub will not be reelected.
The guy who did the work on the islamic dinar is one of the most dangerous men alive, if you're a capitalist :-)
Seriously, I think you're very right about the possibility for an enlightened Islamic state: history has shown that Islam is capable of it, and god knows we need an alternative philosophy somewhere on the planet to hypercapitalism, which is as toxic a way of life as has yet to be found.
The state has to adapt to modernity; the church should be able to stand for eternity. I think this is why they must be separated.
Wa alakum al salaam!
Hexayurt - open source refugee shelter,
Lick a little high, lick a hiney hole.
first of all, wow your post was long. clearly you have some kind of emotional attachment to seeing Islam brought down. some of the stuff you said was true, and some of it was false. for instance, what you said about almuhajiroun.com being worse than the kkk. i honestly went and looked at both sites, and i don't know what you're talking about.
for what it's worth the kkk mission is: "to build a nationwide grass roots movement of White Christian men, women, and children who support a return of White Christians to government." (the link is here) thus this organisation, which you claim to prefer, openly supports racism, and the desire to bring a certain race of people with a certain belief system into power, and presumeably remove anyone else who doesn't fit that description. but that was exactly what you seemed to dislike about islam, plus now you want to add racism.
so you have already contradicted yourself, which is a risk when you write messages that are too long.
some of your statements are true but misleading. for instance "their rhetoric is worse than Hitler's speeches" is true, but not because it's evil or calls for genocide (the way YOUR rhetoric does).. it is often spoken with heavy accents using arabic words which are totally incomprehensible to english speakers. it is absolutely horrible to listen to, unless you happen to know arabic . but people on slashdot are pretty much used to that, since we advocate using linux, whose command-line interfaces can be just as bewildering, but we say that the extra learning makes the experience so much richer and more productive. same thing - you gotta learn arabic to understand some of those words they use.
i also got the impression that you don't really think of multiculturalism in the same way as i do... my take on multiculturalism was that you actually have several cultures which are able to co-exist peacefully in tandem. that was the ideal which the ottoman empire aspired towards. you, on the other hand, seem to ascribe to the "melting pot" idea of multiculturalism, where what is really meant is that people are only welcome so long as they ascribe to the dominant culture (which, again, is one of the things you claim to dislike about islam). that's why you cheered the restaurant owner who insisted that his paying guest must eat pork if she wants to stay in the country - as if the only food in the UK is pork. or your earlier comments that you don't mind muslims as long as they would eat pork and drink beer like people from your favorite religions do.
as for that train thing, it is certainly possible. did you know that india and pakistan have been at war since forever? they absolutely can't stand each other. but that is completely unrelated to the following fact, which i will re-iterate since your rambling did not make it any less true: the terrorists are already dead. they died with their victims. you cannot hold an entire population accountable for the actions of a few crazy people. that would be an injustice, and an affront against the liberties of every innocent person who values freedom. nor is is possible to quench "terrorism" which was born of oppression by using more violence and oppression.
so it seems to me that your post is a mixed bag of true stuff, false stuff, misleading stuff, and an all-encompassing hypocracy which is so very apparent to anyone who reads your message and takes the time to understand it (all 10000 lines of it), that i almost didn't reply. but here you go, just in case you yourself did not notice that your post was not as brilliant as you self-congratulatorily thought.
A caveman dreams of being us, the incalculable power and riches. We dream of being Q, then what?
Looks like the US Government agrees with me and has changed their policies to fingerprint people arriving from Arab nations.
A caveman dreams of being us, the incalculable power and riches. We dream of being Q, then what?
so if anything i do could cost you your taxpayer money then it should be regulated?
A blog about stuff.