Sili-Hudson Valley?

guttentag writes "The New York Times reports Sematech (the international consortium of computer chip makers that turned Austin, TX into a tech center) plans to turn Albany, NY into a research hub. The consortium, which represents IBM, Intel, Motorola, HP, TI, AMD, Philips and others, will put up $193 million for the project while New York State will supply the remaining $210 million. The really unusual thing about the deal is that the state isn't offering any tax breaks or loans to lure the consortium to its capital. Why are they so excited about a location that is over 100 miles from their nearest constituent company (IBM)?"

Comments

Escape from Silicon Valley

[Skyshadow]

Affordible housing, jobs, stability, light traffic, companies with reasonable hours, good schools... All the same things that we in the Silicon Valley have to offer...

(pauses, frowns)

Re:Escape from Silicon Valley

[homer_ca]

Let's see what happens to your affordable housing and light traffic after the high tech building boom gets done with the town. And in the end, you'll still be stuck with that lovely upstate NY weather.

Re:Escape from Silicon Valley

[Jucius Maximus]

"Affordible housing, jobs, stability, light traffic, companies with reasonable hours, good schools... All the same things that we in the Silicon Valley have to offer... "

Big companies are mroe and more often setting up near small communities because the cost of living in extremely populated areas is astronomical. If they set up in San Francisco, the workers will demand very high wages because of the cost of living.

If they set up closer to smaller cities, the cost of living and therefore cost of employees is lower as well. In the small-medium town (~100K people) where I live, lots of factories and office-oriented companies are setting up nearby because of the low cost of living, attractive locale for people (i.e. small numbers of murders), lack of inner city gangs, low traffic levels, lower property taxes, friendly neighbourhoods, etc. This is driving the population up rapidly and new housing developments are appearing in areas which only a year ago were remote farm fields.

Re:Escape from Silicon Valley

[Anonymous Coward]

I live in Albany, and the housing isn't so affordable, the traffic isn't that light, jobs are easier to come by down state, and the hours are no more reasonable here than elsewhere. Can't speak much to the quality of the schools though.

Re:Escape from Silicon Valley

[EvilBudMan]

We have something better than that down south. Cheap Labor! I wish the would come down here in the boonies and bring broadband with them.

Re:Escape from Silicon Valley

[Anonymous Coward]

Maybe they are going to develop things with a dangerously high energy density/throughput and don't want to take out their headquarters in case of a mistake? Next generation processors and the required battery technology perhaps...

Re:Escape from Silicon Valley

[Pxtl]

Then they take the small-medium town and surround it with a million miles of suburban sprawl. Build some freakin' condoes at least - and not everybody needs an acre. Its just ridiculous what they do to the landscape surrounding these towns.

I have friends who grew up in those places. Unless you have your own car and license, you must be chauffeured, or you get no life.

I'm happy I grew up in a big, stinky, industrial city. Sure, it probably ain't good for my lungs, but I didn't spend 80% of my childhood bugging my folks to drive me to the mall.

Re:Escape from Silicon Valley

[Anonymous Coward]

Eh... considering Albany is just about dead center of New York state, in terms of north/south, I wouldn't exactly call it 'upstate' in the typical sense. Well, unless you go by the "If it's north of New York City, then it's upstate New York" system... And the weather isn't that bad unless you get up into the Adirondacks(sp?)...

Re:Escape from Silicon Valley

[Oculus Habent]

But soon the jobs will be as easy to come by there.

I believe it is an issue of employee potential vs cost. People who live in sparsely-populated (or at least not heavily populated) areas are more likely to travel a short distance to work (the necessity of being nowhere, I know) and you don't have to deal with many of the costs of city-based business.

When Walt Disney bought land for Disneyland, it was an orange field in the middle of nowhere. Plenty of space to do whatever you want. So, if you are building a massive reseach hub, you can put in a campus with space for lakes and bike paths and trees, and whatever else you choose.

Try doing that in LA, NYC, DC, Austin, etc.

--
Dromi - They name everything.

Re:Escape from Silicon Valley

[lucabrasi999]

Upstate is anything North of Yankee Stadium.

Re:Escape from Silicon Valley

[NighthawkFoo]

Well, everyone knows that the world ends once you go north of the Bronx...

You have to remember that NYC has 8 million people in it, and Long Island has about 850,000. The population density is so much less outside of NYC that most people from the city aren't even aware of what's outside it.

I grew up on western Long Island, and upstate NY was simply not a part of my consciousness. 'Upstate' was anything north of White Plains. We used to make fun of people in college that were from there (Hah! You live in the middle of nowhere!). Now that I'm working and living there (Poughkeepsie), the joke's on me.

Considering how depressed the upstate economy is (and Albany IS upstate), this will be greatly appreciated by anyone that lives there. Even though NYC is still growing population-wise, many other parts of NYS are shrinking. Granted, many of the counties just north of NYC are booming, but that's because the cost of living threre is somewhat less than NYC/LI. (Why else would a 2-bedroom 1-floor house go for $275,000?)

Re:Escape from Silicon Valley

[YanceyAI]

Actually, I moved to Knoxville, TN from Los Angeles. We don't have clean air (10th worst in the nation, worse than NYC), light traffic, or jobs. And the labor pool is small (pop. 250,000). We also have terrible public education. Also, if you decide to leave the company you're working for, forget finding much else in the tech field.

We do have broadband, though. And UT football.

Re:Escape from Silicon Valley

[duffbeer703]

Actually, the capital region has a median per captia income of $68,000, one of the higest in the country for a whole region.

Re:Escape from Silicon Valley

[Anonymous Coward]

Yep, problem with the south is the education sucks because they just won't tax their citizens enough. They gain a few bucks in the beginning, but lose out in the end. Classic libertarian failure story; low taxes, almost no fair labor practices, anti-union, few environmental regulations, but the economy still sucks.

Re:Escape from Silicon Valley

[Buck2]

8 million people living in one city get to set the rules when compared to 11 million living outside of it ... hence, upstate being anything north of New York.

It makes some sense.

I live in California and used to squabble with people who live in the Bay Area calling themselves from Northern California. San Francisco is geographically smack in Central California, but, since it's north of Los Angeles it's generally referred to as Northern California.

Whatever.

Re:Escape from Silicon Valley

[two-bookoo!]

two words - Nations capitol......

you think that albany is expensive....

Re:Escape from Silicon Valley

[Anonymous Coward]

As a former upstate NYer, I can comment on a couple things to think about before jumping all over this:

- State income tax is very high (similar to CA, but higher)

- Property tax can be 5% or higher, depending on the county. That's generally 5 times higher than in CA and other areas of the country, and 2-3x in many other states.

Think about it...get a 200K house, (175K mortgage). Your monthly payment at 6% would be a little over $1,000 a month. But your monthly prop tax burden would be a little over $800; $1800 a month. So that "cheap housing" starts getting expensive. (but yes, cheaper that many other areas, and yes, I know you can rent.)

- Property doesn't appreciate much; it's not like CA where is will always go up (every 10 years, there's a spike). You have to think investment (unless you just plan to rent forever)

- The other fun thing is that every mortgage (and refinance) is subject to a 1% "tax" by the state to fund "real estate oversight", aka slush fund. This money is NOT tax deductible. So every time you move or refi, be prepared to cough up a couple grand with no benefit to you.

- Jobs and stability? During the "boom times" you couldn't tell it up there at all. I can't see it being better now.

- Can't have any traffic when there are driving bans because of snowfall. :-) Seriously though, because you have to drive furhter to services, places, etc, and the weather affects traffic much more than in more temperate areas, you can spend more time on the road that you'd think.

Just a couple of thoughts to ponder.

-BB

Re:Escape from Silicon Valley

[two-bookoo!]

We have something better than that down south. Cheap Labor!

and shit 4 brains

Re:Escape from Silicon Valley

[Anonymous Coward]

I'd mod you up if I could.

Re:Escape from Silicon Valley

[The Dobber]

You got Upstate New York, which is everything above NYC. Then you got Western NY, which is everything west of Albany. And then there is Northern NY, aka Gods Country, which is the vast economic backwaters north of the Syracuse - Albany line.

I live in a little podunk village of 2000 (which swells to 7000 when the SUNY college and St Lawrence University are in session). I work for a Fortune 100 company whose plant is 12 miles outside of town. My commute is 15 minutes and one traffic lite. If I hit the lite before 7 am, its on flashing caution, total commute is 15 minutes tops. Sometimes I have to stop at the dairy cow crossing.

Re:Escape from Silicon Valley

[Anonymous Coward]

I have friends who grew up in those places. Unless you have your own car and license, you must be chauffeured, or you get no life.

So it's better to raise your kids in a big crowded city where you have no control over where or when they go with their "friends"? Sorry, but until you are 18 your ass belongs to me and *I* will be the one to go to prison if anything happens to you because I neglected to keep an eye on you and raise you properly. I can do that much easier in a nice sprawling suburban neighborhood where my kids have to bug me to drive them the 15 minutes to the mall instead of just walking down and hanging out with their drug smoking hooligan friends.

Re:Escape from Silicon Valley

[NighthawkFoo]

The property/school taxes on Long Island are INSANE. My parents pay almost $6000 anually for a 60'x100' plot + house.

My girlfriend has family who live on the very tony North Shore, and they pay $30,000 for a 2-acre plot.

Kinda puts things into perspective, doesn't it?

Re:Escape from Silicon Valley

[An IPv6 obsessed guy]

And let's not forget that NY is giving them $210 million! That's not exactly chump change to anyone these days.

Re:Escape from Silicon Valley

[Anonymous Coward]

Albany is not anywhere near LI in costs.

Re:Escape from Silicon Valley

[Anonymous Coward]

Bullshit. You made pulled that number out of your but, didn't you? My best guess what you mean by "region" is Metroploitan Statistical Area, in which case Albany comes in with a per capita income of $25,110; 50th in the country. Stamford, CT tops the list at $58,155.

Albany County and Albany City both come in with even lower per capita incomes.

So what exactly are you talking about?

Reference:
www.freedemographics.com

Re:Escape from Silicon Valley

[GreyPoopon]

Even though NYC is still growing population-wise, many other parts of NYS are shrinking.

And one of the prime reasons for this is the high level of taxation coupled with very low wages. I have friends up there making $8.50 / hour at jobs that would pay $16.00 / hour elsewhere. Even at these rates, there are many people out of work. Why? Taxes. NYS has really high taxes. Part of this is because money is channeled from state taxes to support NYC because it costs more to run the city than can be collected there in taxes. Before any of you NYC dwellers flame me, understand that I'm perfectly aware that the situation used to be the other way around -- NYC supported the rest of the state.

Anyway, I suspect an available labor pool used to lower wages would be pretty attractive to some companies. Also, I'm not sure about Albany, but in many upstate areas, real estate costs are reasonably low.

Re:Escape from Silicon Valley

[EvilBudMan]

>>>Yep, problem with the south is the education sucks because they just won't tax their citizens enough. They gain a few bucks in the beginning, but lose out in the end. Classic libertarian failure story; low taxes, almost no fair labor practices, anti-union, few environmental regulations, but the economy still sucks.>>>

There is plenty of tax where I'm at but too few people to tax. Therein lies the problem where I'm at. BTW I'd MOD you up too if I could because it is a fair argument. You need educated people and not just cheap labor.

Re:Escape from Silicon Valley

[EvilBudMan]

>>>Actually, I moved to Knoxville, TN from Los Angeles. We don't have clean air (10th worst in the nation, worse than NYC), light traffic, or jobs. And the labor pool is small (pop. 250,000). We also have terrible public education. Also, if you decide to leave the company you're working for, forget finding much else in the tech field.
We do have broadband, though. And UT [utk.edu] football.>>>

TN is also 48th in education the last time I checked. I'm in Virginia, but one of the poorest parts. +/- 100 miles from K Town. People are moving here from California every day. I don't understand why unless it is the cost of living.

Re:Escape from Silicon Valley

[ebh]

Another part of the problem is that in a lot of the South, education is funded out of sales and income taxes rather than property taxes. So, when the economy goes downhill (I was going to say "south" but...), they lose revenue, and the schools go broke. Up Nawth, we fund our schools primarily from property taxes, which don't change with the economic weather.

Re:Escape from Silicon Valley

[Preposterous Coward]

the housing isn't so affordable, the traffic isn't that light

Compared with what? This says the median house in Albany sold for $120,000 in January of this year. People living in most of the traditional tech-heavy parts of the country would consider that laughably inexpensive.

This source (Google cache, HTML) calls Albany the second-most affordable city (prices relative to income) in the nation, and says, "Outside New York City, Tri-State rental space deemed suitable for industrial R&D is one-third to one-quarter the cost of similar space in Silicon Valley, Boston, Dallas, or Seattle." And according to this, the overall cost of living in the Bay Area ranges from 75% higher (Berkeley) to 285% higher (Atherton, admittedly an exceptional case).

As for traffic: "Drivers in other urban areas such as Albany or Hartford experience only about one-quarter the delay of a West Coast driver."

I'd actually like to hear what you consider affordable housing or light traffic...

Re:Escape from Silicon Valley

[YanceyAI]

In choosing to come back south, cost of living was a large factor, as was a "good place" to raise our family.

We're questioning our reasoning now, too. Lower wages, a smaller job market, and the need to pay for private education offset the financial reasons.

An abundance of small-mindedness (I'm trying to be polite here) is calling into question how "good" this place really is. We choose Knoxville specifically because of proximity to family and familiarity with the area.

Re:Escape from Silicon Valley

[smudge]

I don't know what world these people live in, but I live pretty close to Albany.

Traffic: city like jams at rush hour; and watch out for those ice storms ... quite fun on raised highways.

Jobs: government, SUNY or fastfood

Affordable Housing: mild compared to "downstate", but it is NY!! Aren't too many single income households. (I pay for Pataki's house ... make that mansion).

Stablity: all of NY (and the tri-state area) have been rocked by Sept 11. There are still quite a few people out of work; and a bunch of those that have jobs are moving north driving up real estate prices. As others have pointed out, IBM has single handedly affected jobless rates up and down the Hudson Valley. So another 1 company town doesn't look good to me.

I'll give you good schools, but our school taxes are pretty high.

Re:Escape from Silicon Valley

[EvilBudMan]

>>An abundance of small-mindedness (I'm trying to be polite here) is calling into question how "good" this place really is. We choose Knoxville specifically because of proximity to family and familiarity with the area.

I know what you mean. Knoxville also has some crime for it's size too. Still it is better than Detroit. There are some really nice things near Knoxville, not a lot of work though. Things have definately changed down south.

-- you are what you is -- F. Zappa

Re:Escape from Silicon Valley

[invenustus]

Up Nawth, we fund our schools primarily from property taxes, which don't change with the economic weather.

Yes, but people up here never stop bitching and moaning about how unjust that is.

Re:Escape from Silicon Valley

[spectral]

weather is much, much worse any place Rochester on west (or even Syracuse) at about that latitude, or even down south in binghamton, one of the cloudiest places in the world :) (and I happen to go to Binghamton University, so I can attest to that.)

Re:Escape from Silicon Valley

[spectral]

And once they're older than 18 and want to have a life on their own (or even a job), they still can't. I'm in that situation right now, I'm 20 and just had to have my mom drive me to the mall, it's a fuckin pain in the ass.

Though I definitely like living here better than in a city. heh

Re:Escape from Silicon Valley

[deanstevenson]

There is no problem in the South. The South is growing at a rapid clip which is evidenced by new home sales, increased traffic, and an increasing number of jobs of varied skill levels. The economy there certainly does not 'suck' any more than other regions of the country during a recession. It is time to stop using the South as a punching bag and start acknowledging what has actually transpired there in the past 15 years as far as progress is concerned.

Re:Escape from Silicon Valley

[BWJones]

Seriously though, a couple of years ago we sold a house in the valley and it was an absolutely shocking process. Our house was on the market for all of four hours and our realtor accepted the final offer of %58 more than our asking price.

Another friend of ours and his wife work for Adobe and they just purchased their first house.....a fixer upper......for......$968000. The place needs a completely new roof!

Another friend of ours was telling us that their kids school (private) cannot keep teachers because the teacher cannot afford to live in the valley. The school was handing out $15000 checks for teachers to work at the school for a year, but after that year, the teachers still cannot afford the cost of living and they leave.

My final little anecdote comes from my last trip to the valley several months ago. I flew into the San Jose airport, got picked up by the limo and was sitting in the back seat just looking out the window on my way to a meeting. I noticed that we were sitting at an intersection and at all four corners of the intersection I estimated there were at least $800000 work of automobiles. Porsches, BMW's, Mercedes Benz, a Ferrari, an Audi A8, and other higher end automobiles. And then sitting at a bus stop next to my car there was a woman in a janitors uniform with three kids. The two older kids (probably 9 and 11) were in school uniforms and the youngest was in swaddling. This woman probably could not afford a car, was working as a janitor cleaning the offices of all these folks in their fancy cars while putting her two older kids through school. Despite the charitable contributions that my wife and I make to our local schools, our local soup kitchen, public radio, our local university and medical charities, It made me really self conscious and found myself grateful to have the deep tint on the windows.

Re:Escape from Silicon Valley

[Anonymous Coward]

Throw an extra $6000 tax per year on top of that mortgage payment, and all the sudden you don't really feel like your saving money.

Re:Escape from Silicon Valley

[TWR]

Do you have actual numbers to support your claim? I'm pretty sure that NYC is supporting the rest of the state, not the other way around.

Unless things have changed since the mid-1990's, I think you're wrong. Guiani yelled at Newt Gingritch for calling NYC a drain on the federal government. Rudy pointed out that NYC was a net giver of money to the feds, while Newt's home district of Marietta, GA was a net receiver of funds from the feds. Yes, I know this is federal funds, and not state funds, but I remember reading around that time that the costs of social services upstate are way more than what is brought in by taxes upstate.

BTW, I'm not an NYC dweller. Well, not anymore.

-jon

Re:Escape from Silicon Valley

[Anonymous Coward]

TN is also 48th in education the last time I checked. I'm in Virginia, but one of the poorest parts. +/- 100 miles from K Town. People are moving here from California every day. I don't understand why unless it is the cost of living.


no, its because all the dot-bomb losers who moved to Cali in the good times are now moving back in droves..

Re:Escape from Silicon Valley

[im_calvin]

All the same things that we in the Silicon Valley have to offer...

Right -- I just did that very move (San Jose, CA to Troy, NY), here's what I learned.

Affordible housing

I now pay 25% of what I used to, same size apartment. If we continued to pay the same amount for housing as we did out there, we could own a house outright in 3 years. Never mind the tax benefits.

jobs,

I kept my Silicon Valley job, working remotely as we type.

stability,

Yeah the stability of the market and companies in turmoil. The stability of your options being so far underwater that they are teaching you how to swim.

light traffic,

Lighter perhaps than it was, but can't beat no commute at all. Even with the "lighter" traffic it would still bunch up and take 45min to drive the 15mi home each night. Never mind my friends who drove the 1.5hrs from SF each day.

companies with reasonable hours,

Reasonable -- how's this ... my entire team is on PST, that gives me an extra 3 hrs each morning before anyone gets in to do whatever I want.

good schools...

No kids. ;)

I think you're just scared of your over priced house not going for what it used to. :P

Re:Escape from Silicon Valley

[barzok]

"If it's north of New York City, then it's upstate New York" system"

The majority of Upstaters do use that system. Actually, anything north of the PA border if you extend the line across to CT.

Albany weather can get pretty nasty; they had more storms there this past winter than the lake-effect snow belt (Buffalo, Rochester, Syracuse).

Re:Escape from Silicon Valley

[Gleef]

Pxtl writes:

I have friends who grew up in those places. Unless you have your own car and license, you must be chauffeured, or you get no life.

I live in Albany, NY. While the public transportation system is not as comprehensive as New York City's, it is quite extensive and effective. From everything I've heard, it beats out Los Angeles's system in both coverage and hours.

Re:Escape from Silicon Valley

[p0d]

I grew up in the region. During the good times, it really was no different than the bad times.

Talk about boring, too..nothing to do with your leisure time except plant a garden or something. 2 AM is the closing time for any bar, so forget about nightlife..you're looked upon funny if you are out past 9 PM.

Public education is horrid, most of the people whom I went to high school with were, and still are frighteningly ignorant.

Re:Escape from Silicon Valley

[DrunkenTerror]

Some Shit-Licking Coward Writes:
"So it's better to raise your kids in a big crowded city where you have no control over where or when they go with their "friends"? Sorry, but until you are 18 your ass belongs to me and *I* will be the one to go to prison if anything happens to you because I neglected to keep an eye on you and raise you properly. I can do that much easier in a nice sprawling suburban neighborhood where my kids have to bug me to drive them the 15 minutes to the mall instead of just walking down and hanging out with their drug smoking hooligan friends."

There is only one ass that belongs to you, and that is the one you continually display to the world. I had a father like you. If I was your child I would kill you in your sleep tonight. So much for your control, daddy. *bloody kisses*

Re:Escape from Silicon Valley

[GreyPoopon]

Do you have actual numbers to support your claim? I'm pretty sure that NYC is supporting the rest of the state, not the other way around.

Actually, I don't. I'm just going on statements made by government officials when I was living in NY. They may very well have been lying to cover up their on ineptitude. If I can find some figures to support or refute my claim, I'll let you know. BTW, I'm certainly not saying that NYC citizens should pay more in taxes; they are more than high enough as it is.

Re:Escape from Silicon Valley

[varith]

Having lived in both Upstate NY (Utica) and now around the NYC area, I *really* doubt that money is flowing to NYC from the rest of the state. In the Utica area the biggest employer, by far, was the state and the rate of those on welfare was high and getting higher. Out in the rural areas it was worse and my siblings in Rochester and (formerly) Buffalo have always told me it was worse there. Of course people up their like to believe that they are in such bad shape because of NYC, and what you heard was the pols telling them what they wanted to hear.

Re:Escape from Silicon Valley

[varith]

People who live up there actually use a different system among themselves: the NY/Penn border is called the Southern Tier, Utica/Syracuse is Central NY, The Adirondacks are "up north". But the the rest of the world, it was just called upstate NY for simplicity.

Re:Escape from Silicon Valley

[Skyshadow]

Er, actually, I was being sarcastic. Sorry, I should have labelled it.

Point, though: home prices are at an all-time high, probably due to the nesting instinct triggered deep in our monkey DNA by 9-11. I still rent.

I don't understand

[Uttles]

If you're going to single a place out and make it into a technology hub, why not go somewhere like James Island, SC? The cost of living is low, and you're right on the ocean, and very close to the beaches and bars of Charleston, SC... WTF

Re:I don't understand

[idfrsr]

....because technology geeks have no need for distractions like "oceans", "beaches" and "bars"

I wouldn't want my research monkeys running around a beach scaring the fish...

Re:I don't understand

[Anonymous Coward]

Because SC is full of rednecks. They'll get things done more efficiently in NY simply because the people can think quicker.

Re:I don't understand

[Anonymous Coward]

Umm, because it's in South Carolina.

Re:I don't understand

[agutier]

Also, you don't want to set up your research hub too close to a big city. There is too much competition for comptuer talent.

If you set up a research hub in the middle of nowhere, you won't have competition for your talent. If you can get your high paid researchers to move out into the sticks and enjoy the quite life, you only have to defend against the few other tech companies, rather than all of the industry found in Charleston, or as someone else requested, San Dieago.

Re:I don't understand

[lucabrasi999]

The reason they aren't putting it in Charleston, SC is because Albany has RPI, Syracuse University, Cornell, NYU, Columbia, Yale, MIT and a whole slew of SUNY colleges all within about a three hour drive.

SC has Clemson and a bunch of Cocks (Gamecocks, that is).

Re:I don't understand

[pmz]

James Island, SC

I lived in SC briefly. Considering the poor infrastructure and poor education system, I just don't know why tech companies aren't flocking there. There has been some success luring heavier industry to the state, but the overall high-tech market there is just sub-par.

Now if they start funneling real money into the public schools, then things might start changing. And while they're at it they could start repaving and painting roads. Many SC roads are so bad that one would think they have hard winters or something.

Granted, the cost of living is average, and the beaches are nice. Get one of the million-doller beach houses on a private island, and it's even a nice place to retire.

Re:I don't understand

[sehryan]

Maybe because you're right on the ocean, and are very close to the beaches and bars of Charleston, SC.

Not only that, but Charleston is a tourism town, as is Hilton Head. I can think of many places in SC where a tech center isn't a bad idea, but Chucktown isn't one of them.

Re:I don't understand

[Anonymous Coward]

Awwww.....somebody can't get a tech job close to home....

Re:I don't understand

[pmz]

Also, you don't want to set up your research hub too close to a big city. There is too much competition for comptuer talent.

With respect to SC:

1) There are no big cities. The biggest cities are Greenville, Columbia, Spartenburg, and Charleston, but they aren't too big for tech by any measure. I'm sure any of them and their congressmen would be kissing the feet of a big company looking for a new home.

2) There may be competition in places like Greenville/Spartenburg, but, elsewhere, I think your're okay for a job if you vaguely know what a "computer" is. Most of SC is pretty low-tech, meaning it is hard for a person to find really good employers in addition to it being hard for employers to find really good employees.

SC just lacks the technological "oomph" of places like New England, Texas, and California. On the upside, SC's cost-of-living index is nearly 1.0 (New York City, for example is 2.5+).

Re:I don't understand

[diesel_jackass]

hehe, you forgot RIT. err... Maybe you just left it out on purpose. That's ok, I don't blame you. I went there, I have a really expensive piece of paper that didn't get me anything. At least I had a good time when I went there... no... wait, that was high school.

Maybe it was just my own experience with the unorganized IT dept, but somehow I don't think I'm alone.

Re:I don't understand

[cnmill]

Becasue South Carolina is not very diversity-freindly.

Re:I don't understand

[varith]

Because some day it will inevitably get washed out to sea in a hurricane? Those are all barrier islands out there. They aren't stable objects. Really a stupid place to build anything much less a big research hub.

It's about time

[Palshife]

I went to school in Troy, NY at Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute, and the've been talking about this kind of expansion before. I believe, however, that there's been some resistance from the local population because they're afraid of pollution.

However, I think people will change their tune when they realize how many jobs something like this will create. And believe me, the capital region of NY can use all the jobs it can get.

Re:It's about time

[TWR]

As an RPI grad myself, I am stunned that anyone in Troy would worry about polution. The Hudson isn't exactly the cleanest river around. Didn't GE in Schenectady dumb a few billion tons of PCBs into the river right around there?

Troy was a mess when I was there years ago. I can't imagine that it's gotten better in the meantime.

This would be great news for RPI, though.

-jon

Re:It's about time

[Anonymous Coward]

I'm currently half way through my junior year at RPI. Please god let this happen soon.

Re:It's about time

[Anonymous Coward]

Troy is the armpit of New York. (Really! Look at a map--it's at the confluence of the Mohawk and the Hudson.)

Re:It's about time

[Corby911]

As a current RPI student, I can say it hasn't gotten much better. We make jokes about throwing things onto the Hudson, not into it. Troy has earned its nickname as "the armpit of New York". However, if this brings the focus of RPI back on its largest majors (EE & CSYS), I'm all for it.

Re:It's about time

[Anonymous Coward]

It was the Hudson Falls (about 1hr North) GE Plant, where they manufactured capacitors, that is accused of dumping PCBs into Hudson River. Note that they also had license to do so...

Re:It's about time

[Anonymous Coward]

Finally! I GREW UP (not just college) in the Capital District, and I couldn't wait to get out of there. With the exception of Albany (government jobs), the area has been economically depressed for decades. If they ever actually upgrade the train to NYC to high speed, I might actually move back.

Re:It's about time

[nomadic]

Actually, it has. The Hudson is MUCH cleaner than it was before; near the headwaters it's now possible to eat fish caught in it, and swim in the once-filthy waters. Of course, the farther you get downstream the worse it gets, and water around here (NYC) is still dioxin and heavy-metal enriched, but still noticeably cleaner.

Re:It's about time

[TWR]

"The armpit of New York", eh? When I was there it was "The armpit of America". I guess things have improved...

That is a great URL, BTW.

-jon

Re:It's about time

[nelsonal]

I went to RHIT, in Terre Haute IN, till I realized EE was not for me, and we joked about it being the armpit of America, the planners there had the foresight to put a sewage treatment plant next to a pulp & paper mill. When the wind was right we could smell it at campus on the other side of town. Why are engineering schools located in smelly towns?

Re:It's about time

[cyberconte]

Actually, its...

"Albany is the asshole of NY, and Troy is 10 miles up it."

^_^

Re:It's about time

[Anonymous Coward]

Obviously you've never been to Utica - that's really a pit. [BTW- I live in Troy now - graduated RPI in '98.]

Re:It's about time

[Anonymous Coward]

i think i played you in some rpi quake 2 back in the day.

--matty b (aka squidink)

Re:It's about time

[varith]

Agreed, I think Utica is about as far down the hellhole scale as NYS gets. Of course when you compare it to someplace like Montgomery AL, it looks marginally better.

ugh

[Zanek]

Why dont consortiums like this put up money to create research hubs in places people ACTUALLY want to go (ie: near Miami, San Diego).
Who the hell wants to move out to the sticks in NY to do research ?
I think they would get more people if they moved it closer to a big city where people would have more to do on their off time, than tip cows on the weekends.
Why not start a research hub in South Dakota, researchers would love to move there.

Re:ugh

[Anonymous Coward]

Some of us researchers actually WANT to live in the country and hate the fact that we can only find jobs of our type in big cities.

Not everyone loves the bright lights, big city.

Re:ugh

[Anonymous Coward]

Believe it or not, there are some of us research scientists who *DO* want to live in the sticks, and hate the fact that we usually have to move to a big city to find work in our area of interest.

I grow up in an extremely rural area. I'd love to move back to that type of environement. Peaceful, good place to raise a family, etc. I can't find a job in my niche field in the country, but I'd snap one up if I could.

Bright-lights, big-city isn't for everyone.

Re:ugh

[Anonymous Coward]

Actually, I have worked in collaborations with some folk at RPI. The occasional trips to "Albania" as we called it weren't too bad. To boot, there's a pretty good brew pub in Troy.

Re:ugh

[Anonymous Coward]

screw you, out in the sticks. All of NY state(minus) new york city is not the sticks. AND BTW, long island is 'known' for its big city feel, being next to the city, but there are alot of farms on long island.

Re:ugh

[c-town]

I think it's actually a good move. I was recently out there for 3 months on business and I'm from the bay area. Granted it might be the middle of nowhere but once technology moves in, you know things will start popping up. Look at Austin as an example. When technology moved into Austin, all sorts of new things came up. That and the UT college girls are there too ;). Once people move out there for jobs, things will naturally pop up.

However, the big thing about being out there is NY city itself. Yahoo maps say it's a 3 hour drive in but I'll bet you can drive and take Metro North in 2 and half hours. New York City is definitely worth the drive. San Francisco is a small and boring place compared to NYC. There are definitely more diverse food and more arts. Tons of clubbing in Manhattan, but I'm sure it doesnt interest most of the /. crowd =).

East coast is definitely a lot more beautiful than Silicon Valley, and there are actual seasons! A bonus point goes to Bay Area for good weather though. I think overall, it'll definitely become the next Silicon ________ (Hudson maybe?)

Besides, if people are willing to move out to Texas, I dont think upstate New York is any worse.

Re:ugh

[Anonymous Coward]

There are too many people in San Diego already. The housing costs are nasty. We don't need to encourage more people to move here.

Re:ugh

[Sabalon]

I've been to Albany, Miami and San Diego.

Surprisingly, Albany is the only one that I would wish to return to. San Diego and Miami are both just too big...not something I liked.

Re:ugh

[Computer!]

. Look at Austin as an example. When technology moved into Austin, all sorts of new things came up.

Yeah, like pollution, traffic, and cheesey nerds stuffing themselves into blue shirts and khakis, and then stuffing themselves into their overpriced SUVs, then stuffing themselves into 6th street clubs.

Besides, if people are willing to move out to Texas, I dont think upstate New York is any worse.

Spoken like a true non-Texan. You know there's no state income tax here? Oh, and air conditioning has been invented.

Re:ugh

[Chipmaker]

I claim full credit for coining "Silicondacks".

Re:ugh

[p0d]

Why was this modded down? His opinion is a valid one as the rest of ours. Some people want the sticks, some of us want bright lights, beef jerky!

Miami wouldn't be a good place for a research hub though. The state may promise x amount of dollars, but the local banana republicans will use it to put new rims on their Jaguars or buy a nightclub so they can get laid.

Speaking from experience. Though I thrive on the corruption!

Does Distance Matter?

[idfrsr]

Why are they so excited about a location that is over 100 miles from their nearest constituent company (IBM)?

Does it matter how far you are away now things like distributed systems, video conference calls and such are making the distance less and less of a practical issue.

Re:Does Distance Matter?

[Ioldanach]

Why are they so excited about a location that is over 100 miles from their nearest constituent company (IBM)?

Don't forget there are a few good colleges around here. Among them is RPI, which I recall being one of the first to get a chip going over 1GHz (1.2 GHz if I recall, before it melted). Add to that SUNY Albany, which is a pretty good state school, and there's GE Power Systems down the street, as well as Plug Power (Fuel Cell developers). Quite a few technical developments have come out of this area.

Re:Does Distance Matter?

[shoemakc]

There's Union College as well right in nearby schenectady. I just recieved my MSEE from Union and there appears to be more entry level EE positions in the Albany region then even on Long Island where I grew up.

I'm splitting an apartment in one of the nicer areas of schenectady with two other friends. It's small but $150 a month rent ($450 split 3 ways) is an incredible way to pay back sizable school debt.

I was planning on moving out to CA in a few years just for the heck of it, but if this whole thing pans out I may have to reconsider.

-Chris

Re:Does Distance Matter?

[donnacha]

Don't forget there are a few good colleges around here. Among them is RPI, which I recall being one of the first to get a chip going over 1GHz (1.2 GHz if I recall, before it melted).

Oh, so, that's where AMD got their technology from.

Re:Does Distance Matter?

[frankmu]

my wife went to williams college, only an hour outside of albany... i hear it's a good school.

i myself went to a school with a real football team... washington

Re:Does Distance Matter?

[Anonymous Coward]

the PAC-10 does not play real football. they should stick to their hippie sports like frisbee and beach volleyball.

-ac

Re:Does Distance Matter?

[Anonymous Coward]

Beach Volleyball is not a hippie sport, and frisbees can't fly in Washington when its raining (ever.) But your analysis is true for the PAC-10 in general.

It is a good location.

[Herger]

There has been talk about locating a semiconductor research center for years. Land is cheap, it's an easy drive to Boston and NYC (and IBM's HQ in Armonk, as noted). Plus, you have a reliable supply of labor (full-time and co-op) from nearby engineering school RPI (wonder why they're not involved?)

Re:It is a good location.

[Palshife]

As an alum, I can only guess that RPI had something to do with lobbying for this. This would really revitalize the area and provide some possible research opporunities for the computer engineering department.

Basically, if theyre not involved now, they will be. Go figure, 2 months after I graduate...

Re:It is a good location.

[nomadic]

Damn, you RPI guys are so insecure. So many posts extolling the virtues of the school, insistences that they would just have to be involved in a project like this, comparisons to MIT insisting that RPI is better.

I mean, it's a good school guys, you don't have to be so insecure about it.

Re:It is a good location.

[sstaton]

If you want to see what RPI was like in the 80's, take a look at the "samizdat classic" Not the Rensselaer Handbook . While not the most flattering review of undergraduate life, it does attempt to portrait the "real RPI" of twenty years ago (at least, as I and co author Tom White saw it).

Re:It is a good location.

[Jedi Paramedic]

well, it doesn't help that when RPI and MIT play each other in sports, the MIT folks shout "Safety school!"

Ok, ok, it may be true... but it doesn't help! ;o)

Re:It is a good location.

[Anonymous Coward]

Dont forget you also have GE Corp R&D center basically accross the street, I didnt see GE mentioned but I'm sure they are involved somehow.

Re:It is a good location.

[quinine]

If you paid as much as they did for some mere knowledge you'd probably be insecure too.

Re:It is a good location.

[atdt]

RPI? Hehe...

Do you know where the governor of NY made the announcement today about Center of Excellence in Nanoelectronics? At the CESTM building of U.Albany! And who is the guy that pushes that around? That's my boss Alain E. Kaloyeros

All the guys from IBM, Phillips, Sematech where here this morning. The place is crowded and I can only hear voice but hardly see any face of these guys.

The NY Governor is given a NY license plate "MR HITECH". On a side note, the UAlbany president has the plate "GEEK TOO". Guess what, my boss AEK has the "GEEK" on his Porshe.

NY is just better

[Anonymous Coward]

I've been out west a number of times, but nor do i live in "the city". NY people are not flaming liberals people out west are and things get done here.

Great!

[asdqaz]

I think that this is an excellent move for them. With the kind of broadband technology we have today, distance is beginning to matter less, and less.

Re:Great!

[jeanluisdesjardins]

If everyone is going to telecommute anyway, then why bother with building such a place at all... I agree with everyone else, I think if something like this is going to be built, then build it somewheres cool... I am currently unemployed, and I am applying for any job that has a great location (i.e. Hawaii!) If the job ain't that great, the location can make a big difference in my personal happiness...

p.s. hire me

Re:Great!

[Anonymous Coward]

Only the bad IT workers are unemployed. So why would anyone hire you!

Re:Great!

[jeanluisdesjardins]

Because I am not an IT worker, I am a computer scientist... p.s. Just this morning I got my second job offer... :p schmeck

Thanks a lot, Sematech, for ruining Austin

[smcdow]

As a an old-timer that has lived in Austin since way before Sematech and the subsequent tech-boom, I can safely say that whatever coolness that exists in the Hudson Valley will be utterly gone in 10-15 years.

Be careful what you ask for.

Re:Thanks a lot, Sematech, for ruining Austin

[Anonymous Coward]

i'm curious: does the tech-boom have anything to do with the half-finished 5 year old road work in south austin? trying to get anywhere with the shitty feeder roads is bad enough, but the intersections and left turns are all fucked up due to the half-finished on-ramps and such.

Re:Thanks a lot, Sematech, for ruining Austin

[Anonymous Coward]

Let's be honest: Austin was never very cool. Why would you move to Texas to live in a town that acts like its in California?

If you want the CA attitude, move to the SF bay area. If you move to Texas, act like it.

Re:Thanks a lot, Sematech, for ruining Austin

[TWR]

The only coolness in the Hudson Valley area is the frigid temperatures that start right after Labor Day and end the day after finals at RPI...

-jon

Re:Thanks a lot, Sematech, for ruining Austin

[Anonymous Coward]

Move to California? Thanks, you can keep your mudslides, earthquakes, sink holes, forest fires, highway shootings, elecricity crises, questionable state government deals with large software companies, outrageous cost of living, state income taxes, cold weather... shall I go on?

Austin may not be "very cool" to you, but we like it here. :-)

Re:Thanks a lot, Sematech, for ruining Austin

[Anonymous Coward]

Cold weather? Compared to Albany??? Ummm time to study geography son.

Re:Thanks a lot, Sematech, for ruining Austin

[deceptakahn]

You guys have got to be joking! Austin is still the most laid back & friendly place in Texas. I was forced to move to Dallas after the great .com bust, and I desperatly miss it. Somebody give this Unix admin a job in austin!

Re:Thanks a lot, Sematech, for ruining Austin

[Anonymous Coward]

Ha! What a crock of shit.

This area kicks ass. I used to work down in NYC (dot com casualty) and I'm one of the only people in my old circle of friends who still has a job. There are plentiful cool bars to hang in, Lake George is only an hour away, there's plenty of river and lake access, and there are state parks everywhere. This area is widely underappreciated.

Perhaps you're too busy with all that angst to get out of the house. Come on, bud, get up off that couch! Turn off Springer! There are chicks at the lake!

Unless you're having too much fun being a bore, that is...

Re:Thanks a lot, Sematech, for ruining Austin

[TWR]

Some people don't know a joke when they see it...

I haven't been in the Hudson Valley region in almost a decade, but when I was, I was at RPI. Any RPI student who had a tenth of the fun you are having would never have graduated (as a point of reference, I had several friends who did have the kind of fun you're describing, and they didn't make it out of RPI with a degree).

Maybe things are different now, but I doubt it.

-jon

Re:Thanks a lot, Sematech, for ruining Austin

[zsa]

There are chicks at the lake!

Dude, those are walruses.

Re:Thanks a lot, Sematech, for ruining Austin

[max cohen]

You must not have lived in Austin long because you've already forgotten the deeply embedded myth: ruined the city and it sucks and it'll never be the same. If would just leave, things would be way cooler.

The fact is, no matter when you got here, it was always better before you did.

Re:Thanks a lot, Sematech, for ruining Austin

[Anonymous Coward]

Great, now Intel can come get this ugly ass building frame they left in downtown Austin and take it to NY.

For those that don't know, the City of Austin gave them a huge tax break to build downtown but Intel bailed on it after construction had already begun. Now there's 4 or 5 stories of a concrete frame that no one can decide what to do with. They need to force Intel to knock it down and reclaim the land from them.

Keep Austin weird.

Re:Thanks a lot, Sematech, for ruining Austin

[jasonisgodzilla]

Why would you move to California, when everything crappy in the world comes from there. AIDS got its major foothold there, gangs started there, crack cocaine started there, drive by shooting started there and its expensive as hell.

Re:Thanks a lot, Sematech, for ruining Austin

[Anonymous Coward]

Austin was never very cool.

From about 1968 'till about 1992, Austin was cool.
'Till about 1985 Austin was very cool.

Why would you move to Texas to live in a town that acts like its in California?

Know why Austin "acts" like California?
Because thousands of Californians have moved here in the last decade, that's why.
They have screwed the place up totally.

Re:Thanks a lot, Sematech, for ruining Austin

[SammyT]

As a person who left Hudson Valley to move to Austin, I'd just like to assure you that there IS NO COOLNESS in the Hudson Valley. Austin definitely has a leg up.

Re:Thanks a lot, Sematech, for ruining Austin

[deceptakahn]

it wasnt Intel, it was CSC

really unusual thing???

[sloth jr]

uh -- don't you say in one breath that New York State is kicking in $200M, while wondering what could have possessed the companies to choose New York in the absence of tax incentives or loan?

Just off the top-of-my-head, but don't you think $200M is enough money to make YOUR company open a research facility?

Albany

[ThereIsNoSporkNeo]

They chose Albany because no one notices what is going on in Albany. They can get away with their secret plans of world domination without anyone being the wiser.

Any day now people in Albany will start complaining about the people next door shouting "IT'S ALIVE!!! ALIVE!!!" at all hours of the morning.

Re:Albany

[Anonymous Coward]

Maybe now that some enterprises requiring clean rooms are coming to Albany, maybe they'll stop dumping coal burning power plants serving NYC in the area. Of course, SUNYA is upwind of the area that has the power plants, so probably not. You're right that the Capital District don't get no respect.

Re:Albany

[Anonymous Coward]

Very perceptive statement. Maybe you ARE right?

Distance

[URoRRuRRR]

Perhaps they like the location *because* it's 100 miles away from the nearest constituant. Not only is it deemed "neutral" by all companies, but people from those companies can visit the center, then relax in albany, citing travel time and other factors for them not being able to return to work.

Re:Distance

[Anonymous Coward]

Hahaha, "relax in Albany" :)

I grew up there. I'm guessing you've never been.

Re:Distance

[LinuxHam]

Actually, IBM has a very nice office on State St. I can't remember the cross street, but you can walk to the Pepsi Arena from there. I worked up there in February. 60mph winds and rain/ice that felt like freaking needles in your face.

Re:Distance

[y0yodyne]

N. Pearl St.

Why? - Answer

[Fascist Christ]

Why are they so excited about a location...

So that they can make their chips with SilAlbany and cheese.

why would they move?

[Maeryk]

Well, Albany is nicely located in NYS. Its also close enough to Canada that drawing people over the border to work there is feasible. Add to that the fact that its not a terrible part of the country weather/climate wise. (We dont get earthquakes, typhoons, torrential flooding, mudslides, wildfires a-la the west, and damn few tornados) and you have a safe place for your busines.

It is also considered NE corridor (or close to it) and they can probably suck in a lot of people who have been downsized/lost here due to the horrible economical situations of late. Many people probably wouldnt relocate to California or Texas, but might move an hour west to be in Albany from NYC.

Plus, you get all the people from NYC who dont want to live IN NYC but want to be close enough to visit.

I live about 2.5 hours from NYC, and we have people living here who work there, and *drive* there daily. the number of cars that sat empty in train and bus station lots after 9-11 kind of pointed that one home pretty hard.

Its not a bad part of the country.. NY state may also have much more lenient laws on things like pollution, building, etc etc. Probably lower land prices has a lot to do with it as well. And lower taxes.

Maeryk

Re:why would they move?

[Ioldanach]

It is also considered NE corridor (or close to it) and they can probably suck in a lot of people who have been downsized/lost here due to the horrible economical situations of late. Many people probably wouldnt relocate to California or Texas, but might move an hour west to be in Albany from NYC.

Um... actually, you'd move 3 hours north to be in Albany. (Or 2.5, depending on how fast you drive) :) My wife's dad works in NYC and lives 2 hours south, and he takes the train in from where he lives. Also, if you want to live just north of Poughkeepsie, an hour south of Albany, you can catch the commuter train into NYC or commute up to Albany if it isn't snowing too hard. Very centrally located, and IBM has a research center there.

Re:why would they move?

[Zelet]

IBM is also building a new 3 Billion microchip plant (I believe) right outside of Poughkeepsie. Maybe they are going to do some engineer sharing between the two plants.

P.S. Poughkeepsie is a shitty city. Don't live there. Albany is really pretty though.

Re:why would they move?

[zrodney]

Add to that the fact that its not a terrible part of the country weather/climate wise. (We dont get earthquakes, typhoons, torrential flooding, mudslides, wildfires a-la the west, and damn few tornados)

as someone who lived in Albany for many years
and went to school nearby (Troy), then moved
to Mountain View (now Santa Cruz)...

I have to say that the weather is much more brutal
in Albany. The one earthquake here caused no
damage vs the snow storms, thunderstorms, tornadoes
and even the occasional earthquake in NY.

Re:why would they move?

[Sabalon]

Given that people don't really like to live in the city as much as commute in (not that Albany is that huge, but a house beats an apartment for any family oriented person), what are the conditions outside of Albany?

When we visit the in-laws, we fly into Albany and head about an hour east...very depressing some parts - mountain "towns" that have nothing other than maybe a gas station.

I know that right across the hudson, you've got things like Schnectedy (why do towns in NY have to be so hard to spell?) and it didn't seem that bad - but usually we just drive through. Didn't seem like someplace I'd like to live, then again driving through on the main roads, you usually just see the business areas and houses with crummy location...could be some nice areas right off the road.

Then again, Poughkeepsie, Red Hook, New Paltz, etc... isn't that far out of the way to be ruled out either. Especially with the train.

About the only thing (and it's what keeps my wife from moving back) is the winters. Some people just hate the cold and snow.

But I'm all for seeing New England revitalizing itself. Too many little towns (like where my wife is from) that are beautiful locations, but with the mills that closed, they just can't support an economy.

Re:why would they move?

[Sabalon]

Poughkeepsie isn't that bad is it? Or has it gotten much worse in the last 10 years? Actually, come to think of it, it is kinda scummy, but there are lots of places within a short drive that are nice, or like I said, were 10 years ago (Hyde Park, Red Hook, Pleasant Valley, etc...)

Re:why would they move?

[kirkb]

Well, Albany is nicely located in NYS. Its also close enough to Canada that drawing people over the border to work there is feasible.

A Canadian who is drawn across the border to work in the US probably won't care how far away he or she ends up living. As a Canadian who has lived and worked in the SF bay area for 6 years, I can attest that moving *across* the border is orders of magnitude more significant than any distance that you travel afterwards. The implications involve economics, real estate, family, language (eh!), education, and much more.

Re:why would they move?

[Azghoul]

As someone who recently left NYS... You don't live there do you??

Lenient laws on pollution: Are you kidding? Maybe behind California, but who isn't.

laws on building: Every inch of NYS is covered by at least 3 layers of government (village/town, county, state), plus who knows how many IDA's, zoning boards, and cranky NIMBY neighbors.

LOWER TAXES?!? That one made me choke. NYS tax laws are among the nastiest in the nation. Quick residential example: I bought a house for about 20% more down here outside DC than my in-laws did back near Buffalo. My property taxes are 1/3 theirs. And our sales tax is 4.5%, compared with 8% up there.

All your other points are valid, though. :)

Re:why would they move?

[LinuxHam]

Albany is really pretty though.

Albany may have nice areas, but its a lot like Baltimore. Like 3 square blocks that are nice, and the rest are totally blown out. I was driving through there, and kids pelted my truck with ice balls. With rocks in the middle. Luckily they didn't see the police car behind me.

So he fired shot over their heads.

Re:why would they move?

[kurobejin]

Heading east, into western Mass, is exactly as you describe. Heading north, towards Saratoga, is much, much nicer. From Albany to Saratoga is a thriving, vibrant area.

Re:why would they move?

[catfood]

But I'm all for seeing New England revitalizing itself.

What does this article have to do with New England?

(Hint: New York isn't part of New England, even though York is part of England.)

Re:why would they move?

[The Flymaster]

No, but Albany is 1/2 hour west of the towns in Mass (New England) and Vermont (New England) that need to be revitalized. To think that this won't help is being stupid for the sake of pedantry.

Re:why would they move?

[Maeryk]

Thanks for the info! I wasnt aware.. I live in PA.. (State motto: Welcome to Pennsylvania, the Laws are Different here!")

THere is a reason I said "may" :)

Maeryk

Re:why would they move?

[I_redwolf]

Occasional earthquake in NY.. heh.. thats funny. I mean I'd agree with the snow storms and thunderstorms but ummm they don't call em Nor'Easters for nothing and also tornadoes rarely reach Troy or upstate NY as they barely even reach nyc. If you look at a tornados path it usually comes out the coast hits places like Myrtle beach etc and then slowly starts to swing right out to sea. It's been like that for years even with the odd El Nino weather.

Re:why would they move?

[NighthawkFoo]

Poughkeepsie has some nasty areas. I don't like driving through some parts of it at night.

Hyde Park, Red Hook, Rhinebeck, and Pleasant Valley are fine. Wappingers Falls, and Red Oaks Mill aren't that bad.

The Route 9 corridor is pretty built up now, and is a reasonably decent place to spend your dollars.

Beacon sucks. Enough said.

Newburgh is BAD. My TaeKwon Do teachers used to hear the drug dealers shooting each other at night from their house.

Re:why would they move?

[Gambit Thirty-Two]

Its really not bad depending on where you live. Dont live in the CITY of poughkeepsie. the TOWN of poughkeepsie is much much better...

Re:why would they move?

[Zelet]

I used to live across the street from Marist... that sucked, but it was better than where I almost lived (don't know the street, but it was VERY dangerous neighbor hood to be a skinny white kid.

Re:why would they move?

[spiedrazer]

Don't forget that Albany is pretty near the geographic center of the Ivy League and other high caliber research institutions that are plugged in the NE. MIT, RPI, WPI, Cornell Nonotech Lab etc. etc. etc.

Re:why would they move?

[y0yodyne]

You obviously haven't been here lately. Within the last 6 months, there has been a mag 3 and a mag 5 earthquake in the Adirondacks. Also, about 5 years ago a f-5 tornado destroyed much of Mechanicville, about 10 miles north of Albany.

Re:why would they move?

[y0yodyne]

Particularly if you like sitting in traffic on the Northway...

Re:why would they move?

[Preposterous Coward]

Welcome to Pennsylvania, the Laws are Different here!

Did they ever raise the speed limit? I remember back in the 80s and 90s, driving across the border and being greeted by a big sign that basically said "Welcome to Pennsylvania, where the state speed limit is still 55 mph and fines for speeding are as follows:" Having gotten used to driving in states where the limits were 70-75 outside of urbanized areas, that always made me laugh (and slow down ;-)

Re:why would they move?

[Maeryk]

Did they ever raise the speed limit? I remember back in the 80s and 90s, driving across the border and being greeted by a big sign that basically said "Welcome to Pennsylvania, where the state speed limit is still 55 mph and fines for speeding are as follows:" Having gotten used to driving in states where the limits were 70-75 outside of urbanized areas, that always made me laugh (and slow down ;-)

Yeah. We went up to 65 on certain roads.. but half the turnpike is still 55, inexplicably. Stands to reason though, states that moved above 55 MPH risked losing government funding for roads and highways. If you know ANYTHING about PennDOT you realize its corrupt as all get out and cant fix a road ANYWAY, let alone without government funding. Add to that that PA has more miles of road than any other state in the union, and you realize the issue.

But yeah.. we are still backwards.. we still have to go to a state-run store to get booze, and a beer specific store to get beer in anything over a six pack. Beer is sold ONLY in cases.. (24 for you canucks, eh?) and you cant mix and match within the case, unless it was produced that way.

You should drive from Bristol Tennessee to PA sometime.. you cross something like 5 states (Tn, Va, WV, MD, PA) and *all* of them have different speed limits, driving rules (drive right pass left) turn on red status and everything else. And they are posted on a postage stamp sign at the worst possible place to stop and try and read them on a blind corner on a high speed four lane road.

Maeryk

Re:why would they move?

[Anonymous Coward]

You've mixed up hurricanes with tornadoes, buddy.

Re:why would they move?

[guttentag]

Well, Albany is nicely located in NYS. Its also close enough to Canada that drawing people over the border to work there is feasible.

Sorry, I hear the judges buzzing in on this one. The two nearest major Canadian cities are Montreal (4-hour drive through the mountains, icy and dangerous in the winter) and Toronto (7-hour drive on the well-plowed, toll-based NYS Thruway). Suggesting that the consortium is going to Albany to be close to Canada less correct than suggesting companies move to Silicon Valley to be close to Los Angeles and San Diego. As for NYC, I don't think a prime factor in the decision was the prospect of being only three hours from a weekend in the Big Apple.

Add to that the fact that its not a terrible part of the country weather/climate wise. (We dont get earthquakes, typhoons, torrential flooding, mudslides, wildfires a-la the west, and damn few tornados) and you have a safe place for your busines.

NYS gets earthquakes (In the 2.5 years I've lived in California, we've had one earthquake strong enough to be felt, but it was milder than the the 5.1 that hit Plattsburgh on April 20?), hurricanes and snowstorms. I've lived in Syracuse, where the piles of plowed and shoveled snow can get so high you can't see the road from the sidewalk. The weather in New York can be just as bad as the weather elsewhere.

As for tornados, I can remember over a dozen tornado warnings during the years I lived on Long Island, though I don't recall any of them destroying anything. However, the northeast is not immune: less than a year ago a tornado in Washington, DC picked up a car and smashed it into the trees in front of the dorm where I used to live, killing both passengers.

Economically, upstate NY is so dead the state government is lending credence to a man who wants to build a $2 billion mall in Syracuse (next to the large Carousel mall he built several years ago) simply so his grandchildren will have a reason to not flee New York. No one knows where the money's going to come from, but Gov. Pataki and the Post-Standard treat the proposal as though it's just a matter of time.

As a NY native, I recognize that New York isn't a bad place to live. But I posed the question because the article says the consortium didn't even negotiate with any other U.S. cities, whereas last time they talked to 36. I was hoping someone might have some insight into what makes Albany so much more important than the rest of the country that it would preclude the consortium from considering anyone else.

Re:why would they move?

[gid-goo]

Not only that but the cops are assholes AND everywhere. I used to drive from Vermont to Cleveland a fair amount and Pennsylvania was always a police nightmare.

Re:why would they move?

[SquadBoy]

I'm not sure from your post just what you meant but if you are claiming that NY does not have earthquakes on occasion you are what we like to call wrong.

http://www.cnn.com/2002/US/04/20/new.england.tre mo rs/

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&ie=UTF-8&oe=U TF -8&q=new+york+earthquake

Re:why would they move?

[I_redwolf]

http://neic.usgs.gov/neis/epic/epic.html
http://n eic.usgs.gov/neis/states/new_york/new_york _history.html
http://neic.usgs.gov/neis/states/ne w_york/new_york _seismicity.html
http://www.ldgo.columbia.edu/lcn .html

The national center for earthquake Engineering stuff you'll have to search google for compare all the above with the original posters california stuff.

http://www.erh.noaa.gov/er/bgm/tornado/maintor.h tm l

"A tornado is a rare occurrence in central New York and northeast Pennsylvania. Since 1950, there have been 128 tornadoes reported in the Binghamton forecast area. This area is composed of 24 counties in central New York and northeast Pennsylvania.

New York State ranks 30th and Pennsylvania 25th in the total number of tornadoes reported in the United States from 1950 to 1996. See the Storm Prediction Center for the complete list."

http://www.spc.noaa.gov/archive/tornadoes/st50-9 6t .htm

New York is 30 outta the 51 states from 1950-1996

It seems most if not all of you are quite mistaken.

Re:why would they move?

[SquadBoy]

I'm confused are you claiming that earthquakes do not happen in NY? You do of course know that occasionally means "not very often". Granted they are very rare but they do happen. Your first post sounded like it was saying that they do not happen.

Re:why would they move?

[I_redwolf]

I never said NY doesn't have earthquakes on occassion.. Hell even NYC has earthquakes; you could move anywhere on earth and always be subject to an earthquake. I'm claiming the original poster using something as california in comparison is extremely laughable considering all of the data on major faults.

Re:why would they move?

[ccwaterz]

I would assume you're speaking of Virginia.
Well, the difference in sales tax is in NY you are actually paying 2 different taxes: 3 or 4% to the state, and the rest is county sales tax. That's why it varies from county to county.

VA counties/cities make up for that in Personal Property tax based on value of your car(s) and other large assests. But that's being phase out in a year or 2.

But yes...A while ago I came across a chart comparing the percentage of income payed out to taxes by state. NY was on the higher end. I want to say top 10.

Re:why would they move?

[Gambit Thirty-Two]

oi. yeah, definitely understandable. thats a parkinglot now. im up closer to arlington now.... about a mile from "the city", but a nice place. im like halfway between the city and the farmlands.

Re:why would they move?

[CaptainEcchi]

Of course, the parent post to yours fails to point out that by "close to Canada," he means "three hours away on I-87." I still think that's too long a commute ^_^

And that's assuming you live right on the border.... it's yet another hour to a city of any size (Montreal). But if you live in Montreal, why the hell would you commute to puny Albany?

Re:why would they move?

[hyperturbopete]

Ahem.
(1) Snow.
(2) 5 hours from any major city.
Still, cost of living in central NY is pretty reasonable.

Re:why would they move?

[Gleef]

hyperturbopete writes:

Ahem.
(1) Snow.

Yay! Snow!

(2) 5 hours from any major city.

I don't know what you consider a "major" city. I grew up in NYC, and I consider Albany a major city, as opposed to minor cities like Oneonta or Mechanicville or metropolitan areas like NYC or Boston.

However, Albany is 2.5-3 hours from New York City, 3 hours from Boston and 3.5 hours from Montreal. If New York City isn't major enough to count as a major city for you, there's no place in the US that's within five hours drive of a major city (the closest city bigger than NYC is Mexico City; Cairo and Tokyo are way too far away).

Re:why would they move?

[humblecoder]

I don't know wher you get your driving times from but it is about FOUR hours from Albany to the Canada border (straight shot up the Northway), so there is no way anybody living in Canada is going to work in Albany.

Also, Albany is at least 3 hours NORTH or NYC (not 1 hour west as you suggest). Anybody who wants to live near NYC can find a place a lot closer than Albany. Just to give you some idea, Albany is about the same distance from NYC as Baltimore, MD (give or take 30 miles or so), it's a non-trivial distance.

RTP, North Carolina

[stevenbdjr]

Why are they so excited about a location that is over 100 miles from their nearest constituent company (IBM)?

I'm sure people asked the same kinds of questions when Research Triangle Park was being put together by a multitude of companies. Now it's one of the best places to live in America for technology workers.

Re:RTP, North Carolina

[vanguard]

I've lived in RTP for the last three+ years. I do truly love it. If you want to continue your education, work in technology, and raise a family it's perfect. However, I do have my concerns.

Most of the employers here are large companies and many of them have taken major hits (Cisco, IBM, Nortel, Lucent, etc.). The fact that there isn't a huge number of smaller companies has created a risk that 10,000 jobs will get slashed in a single bad day. It seems like 1,000 people are tossed on the street by Nortel or Lucent every day. Anyway, great area, not enough small employers. The same problem is awaiting Albany.

Vanguard

Re:RTP, North Carolina

[MORTAR_COMBAT!]

all RTP needs are a few entrepreneurs to set up shop, collecting the ex-engineers from cisco, nortel, and IBM, and creating a product. i've often thought of doing this, but i've been lucky enough to keep my job (so far).

oh, i forgot, nobody is buying anything right now. it wouldn't really matter how many small employers were in RTP right now, the economy is just not strong enough to sustain the numbers of employees which are here. unless you know of someone in the area with venture capital, you won't be staying in small business for long, because nobody is buying, and you can't spend indefinitely without selling something.

Why? Lithography research alliance with SUNY.

[Anonymous Coward]

"Plans for a joint five-year $320M program to accelerate the development of next generation lithography were announced today by International SEMATECH (ISMT) and The University at Albany-SUNY (UAlbany)." Lithographic technology is critical to improving chip performance. (full text)

Why?

[sulli]

Why are they so excited about a location that is over 100 miles from their nearest constituent company (IBM)?

Why did the Dodgers move to Los Angeles? Cold, hard cash.

why not?

[Dalroth]

What's wrong with Albany New York? I hate to say this, but New York City, L.A. and San Francisco/Silcon Valley are *NOT* the center of this vast and great country of ours!

We have thousands of cities across 50 states that could all just as easily serve this purpose. Quite frankly, I find it really refreshing that other people/places in this country is being given a chance.

Not everything has to be (nor should it be) congregated into one small hub. That's how companies and governments die (think of those poor companies who were housed 100% in the WTC buildings as an example). Our tech industry SHOULD be spread across the country, it's too important to be otherwise.

Re:why not?

[nomadic]

I hate to say this, but New York City, L.A. and San Francisco/Silcon Valley are *NOT* the center of this vast and great country of ours!

Right, just New York City is.

Re:why not?

[urmensch]

Not everything has to be (nor should it be) congregated into one small hub

Yeah we should just pave anything that is green and grows.

Anyway, Albany is alright, 4am liquor laws are nice, and if they don't totally trash the area with cheap new buildings it might be a really good experience for most people. Also, this might keep some of the creative types around, instead of heading of for NYC due to lack of interest, energy and others that share their interests.

Sili-Hudson Valley?

[Lev13than]

I hear their next project is to turn Churchill, Manitoba into Sili-Hudson's Bay.

high-tech NY campaign & job listings

[mkbz]

check out www.hightechny.com for info & job listings!

TECH VALLEY YEAH!

[dasmegabyte]

I live in Tech Valley, (Wynantskill, actually) and I can tell you a few of the reasons why it's so popular:

1) Though taxes are high, the cost of living and operating are low -- at least 20-30% lower than in NYC. Which means you can offer an employee less money and it'll be worth more to them. Insurance is also cheaper.

2) Tons of infrastructure. A lot of big fat unfettered pipes and buildings waiting to be filled.

3) Nice setting. Those pictures of your corporate headquarters at the top of a rolling green hill surrounded by trees sure beat the arrow-pointing-to-an-office-floor stuff some people have to deal with. We've got nice sprawl for your employees, too (not a good thing if you, as i do, live on the street leading to the sprawl, but there you are).

4) RPI. RPI graduates tons of brilliant tech youths with experience in wierd technology. RPI honors and grad students create all sorts of brilliant tech advances, and when they get their sheepskins they'll need some place to hole out for 20-30 years. A wise tech company grabs them while they're young and cheap...we have a dozen consulting companies around for this reason; hell, even Microsoft has a recruitment office here.

5) Dude, you're 2 hours from Canada, 2 hours from the City, 2 hours from the shore, Cape Cod in the summer, Vermont in the winter...it's nice in NY man.

Re:TECH VALLEY YEAH!

[Anonymous Coward]

6) And only 10 minutes from the hood. Watch out! Muthafuckas will jack you in Arbor Hill.

Re:TECH VALLEY YEAH!

[Anonymous Coward]

Definitely great news for the area. Definitely have the infrastructure in place between RPI and SUNY Albany. However there's one element that's missing that Pataki and Jerry Jennings (Albany's mayor) are going to have to pay attention to in order for things to take off. And that's the quality of life for those 20 to young 30-somethings that said tech companies are going to want to siphon of as they graduate. Albany's great for people raising a family, but they're missing the culture/leisure opportunities of larger cities. See Salon for a similar take : Be Creative or Die

Re:TECH VALLEY YEAH!

[wpjmurray]

You are SOOOO smart! Asshole.

Re:TECH VALLEY YEAH!

[Anonymous Coward]

for what? management?

RPI is consitantly ranked overall in the 40's for all programs offered in the US. its usually ranked in the top 3-5 engineering programs among practing engineers (not princton review which includes things like endowments, bet you didnt know that MIT is pass/fail first year)

if you want cs, goto CMU, but if you want engineering RPI is one of the top

Re:TECH VALLEY YEAH!

[elgato1906]

The Bars are open till 4:00am!!

Re:TECH VALLEY YEAH!

[MORTAR_COMBAT!]

that's why it is a short drive from the mountains (think skiing, snowboarding), and all KINDS of hiking/canoeing/fishing. there is more to life than dance clubs and date rape. for those of us who like the crisp outdoors over a musty dance floor, albany NY beats the CRAP outta LA.

Re:TECH VALLEY YEAH!

[jellomizer]

Of course you actually live in the quaint little town North Greenbush, Wynantskill is actually a Hamlet of NG. And I am not sure if you rember this or not but a fiew years ago North Greenbush in its less then infinate wisdome decided not to allow the making of a chip plant in the area. Which is odd because this quant unassuming town has a Tech Park with good size Tech Companies such as Mapinfo and Unified. The real question to this are these suberbs of albany going to welcome all these people.

Re:TECH VALLEY YEAH!

[Anonymous Coward]

iirc, mit is switching to "pass/nr" for first term freshmen, and "a/b/c/nr" for second term freshmen.

i know engineers from rpi and from mit. most all seem reasonably educated & intelligent to me.

Re:TECH VALLEY YEAH!

[Anonymous Coward]

Hey, I am a cs student at RPI and I res... oh wait. Yeah, should have gone to CMU. Why did I want to be an engineer origionally?

Re:TECH VALLEY YEAH!

[Anonymous Coward]

Dude, you're 2 hours from Canada, 2 hours from the City, 2 hours from the shore, Cape Cod in the summer, Vermont in the winter...it's nice in NY man.
... Albany, a place you cant wait to leave!

Re:TECH VALLEY YEAH!

[spiedrazer]

And two hours to the West you've got Cornell U. with it's National Nano-tech research center, materials science and about 50 other top ranked technology programs.

Re:TECH VALLEY YEAH!

[cpeterso]

you're 2 hours from Canada, 2 hours from the City, 2 hours from the shore, Cape Cod in the summer, Vermont in the winter

ie middle of nowhere.

Re:TECH VALLEY YEAH!

[Anonymous Coward]

that's not funny. fuckers tried to steal my ride on more than one occasion.

Re:TECH VALLEY YEAH!

[traused]

Dude, you're 2 hours from Canada, 2 hours from the City, 2 hours from the shore, Cape Cod in the summer, Vermont in the winter...it's nice in NY man.

2 hours from canada, city and shore??? Sure if you drive REALLY fast maybe you could hit NYC in 2 hours, but no way are you going to be in canada in 2 hours, or Cape Cod.

Anyway, the Hudson Vally is a resonable area to live. I spent 4 years there as a student at RPI. Its much cheaper then Silicon Valley (where I live and work now). If i made the same money there that I made here I would live like a king!! There is also quite a bit of tech there. I worked there for 2 summer, one in the Rensselaer Tech park where there are quite a few tech companies, and the other at GE CRD. GE is HUGE out there. I considered staying there, and I would even consider moving back there. It does have a lot to offer the tech industry.

Re:TECH VALLEY YEAH!

[rakolam]

My dick is bigger then your dick.
My dad can beat up your dad.
My girlfriend is prettier than your girlfriend.
My computer is faster than yours.
I can drink more beer than you.

Wait till you graduate and work a few years before thinking about posting again to avoid sounding juvenile kiddo.

Re:TECH VALLEY YEAH!

[Anonymous Coward]

now try to be a little more open to other cultures.

How about the $210 million?

[Anonymous Coward]

I think $210 million dollars is enough incentive to get anyone to move there. I mean, they're paying for more than half the project!

Why? It's simple!

[Anonymous Coward]

hookers!

lots of hookers!

RPI?

[Anonymous Coward]

I go to RPI, and there are quite a few VERY smart, talented people here. Many of my friends work for small tech companies right now, and there is a LOT of talent in the area, as many graduates stay in the area. In addition, it's a very affordable place to live with a fair amount to do if you like the outdoors at all.

I, for one, have no desire to move anywhere NEAR California, and would love to stay in the Capital District if I could find a decent job there when I graduate.

The Albany Hub

[Joe U]

100 miles is nothing when you have several large rail corridors sitting next to your plant.

Albany is a rail hub with low cost for building and housing. You can ship products (or people) to NYC in under 2.5 hours. Or Armonk (IBM) in about an hour. It's also very easy and cheap to ship to Chicago, NJ, PA, CT, MA.

Albany is a wonderland for a manufacturer.
The only thing is, I'm not sure how much manufacturing will be going on here.

I know the _real_ reason

[cfreel]

It's a certain prof. A. Kaloyeros, of the SUNY Albnay physics dept. I worked for him as an undergrad, and he was doing groundbreaking research in materials science. (I probably shoulda stayed working there and done my grad work there, but no.... I thought I was gonna do optics :-p oh well). Trust me, he's built quite a program there from nothing (most of the other faculty was rather envious of him when I left in 93, I can only imagine how it is now). I'm not sure how much credit he gets, but I know that he was near the front of the pack in the process that eventually resulted switching conductive materials within chips to copper (everything was Al until very recently; it's easy to work with, but copper has a lower resistivity, so it generates less heat... tougher to work with, though...). Wonder if I'll ever end up back in Albany, now that they'll actually be some jobs there. :^) Chrisf

Re:I know the _real_ reason

[Anonymous Coward]

You're right-SUNYA is often underrated.

Re:I know the _real_ reason

[cfreel]

If you look at who's at the center of all this, you'll see it's just Kaloyeros, not even SUNYA. Pretty amazing, and nice to see how far he's gone. This is almost big enough for his ego... LOL.

RPI

[!splut]

They'd have a steady steady supply of applicants from local universities. Particularly I'm thinking of RPI, which is just across the river in Troy, and has excellent CS and engineering programs...

And it's a beautiful area. Near the adirondacs and catskills. Near Lage George. A freshly dredged Hudson River (new lower PCB content!). 3 hour trainride to NYC, but without the big city drawbacks.

It has all the requirements for an excellent technological hub. Plus snowstorms that drop a good two feet of snow in February, which is really something the Silicon Valley currently lacks.

Re:RPI

[limited]

I'll second this RPI comment, as I will be attending there next year. While Troy and Albany may not be the cleanest or neatest city in the Northeast, it does have several advantages over other places. Albany is centrally located in relation to other cities, just over 3 hours from Boston and NYC, and maybe 5 or 6 to Buffalo. Lots of recreational activities, Adirondacks and Lake George are just a short trip up the Northway(I-87). More importantly, this area needs jobs. Anyone who lives in this area and has seen downtown Schenectady lately (Home of GE) knows that the city has seen it's heyday. Higher taxes and a lack of modern companies seem to be repelling college graduates from staying in the area. My current town, Guilderland has a population of 30,000 people, 40% of which are senior citiziens. Its scary for a teenager to live in a town where politics are dominated by a demographic 4 times your age. I would guess that the largest employer around here is New York State itself. If Pataki can manage to bring those jobs here, it would be a virtual revival to the Capital District. I would love to stay in the area after college, but as experienced by one of my good friends, an MIS major from SUNY Albany- there are just no jobs here. Hopefully in 6-8 years, I can walk through the streets and be reminded of the days when GE kept this area on top. (Except, without all the pollution this time)

Re:RPI

[Anonymous Coward]

If you think RPI's CS program is "excellent," you must never have experienced it.

(I will be a senior in their excuse for a CS program in the fall.)

factors

[Abj]

There are many other factors to consider other than tax-breaks. If you're thinking the only factors that matter are money, you're right. But there are other ways to save money, like perhaps state tax breaks, that whole $210 million investment from the state, good corporate law (why do you think every company is incorporated in Delaware?).

Personally, however, I think Charleston, WV would be the best place. Extremely, extremely low cost of living, incredibly low crime, and half the US population lives within 500 miles of it.

Infrastucture.

[GodInHell]

The Power, Tele-com, Water Supply, etc for New York City comes from all over northern New York,

Coincidentally enough, the easiest route for such is right down the hudson valley. There aren't many places in the country with that kind of already-established power and communications resources.

I'm from poughkeepsie, IBM has an old interest in the area, lots of old corporate gold clubs, resteraunts, etc. The weather is reasonable, the living is cheaper than along the coast, and hey, It's New York.

Damn, now I'm homesick.

-GiH
Proud to live in Chicago, Where Flat takes on a whole new meaning.

Re:Infrastucture.

[Anonymous Coward]

I also grew up in Poughkeepsie and left the Hudson Valley ten years ago when IBM hit tough times and began layoffs. I'm glad to hear about the news up there in Albany. Many of the NY towns are known as one company towns (Schenectady: GE. Poughkeepsie: IBM. Rochester: Kodak). Now if we could only get some tech companies (or startups) to move into some of the former IBM buildings in the Mid-Hudson Valley.

IBM and hudson valley...

[powerlinekid]

Ok, I work at IBM. My father works at IBM. Good number of my friend's parents work at IBM. IBM is single handedly the most influencial and important business in this area (dutchess, ulster county roughly an hour from albany). When they layed off all those people in the early 90s, our economy went to shit. Many people I know were layed off, closing one plant (kingston) and cutting back in the poughkeepsie plant and east fishkill plants. A few thoughts on why albany. One would be that its the closest large city to here, for convention center and office buildings. NYC is further and more of a hassle. Poughkeepsie, which i believe has a population of 50-100 thousand, is a dump. Yeah there are some nice parts, and I would absolutely love for it to be here (more job opportunities) but its really not that kind of city. Albany also is pretty much the center of the state. If it was NYC, the rochester (Eastman/Kodac, RIT, etc) people would have quite a trip, same for the buffalo people (not to mention Massachusetts, Connecticut, etc). It seems to me that all and all Albany probably is the most logical place. Theres plenty of room, its a relativly decent city and its in a rather convenient location. I hope all of this really does go through because we could definitly use more of a tech industry than IBM.

The answer is in the question

[Rupert]

Why are they so excited about a location that is over 100 miles from their nearest constituent company?

slightly further up:

New York State will supply the remaining $210 million

It always feels good to get money back from the government.

Re:The answer is in the question

[guttentag]

Read the article:

In its 1987 search for a home for its first center, Sematech considered offers from 36 states -- New York was one of the finalists -- trying to top each other in financial sweeteners. In the end, the chip makers contributed $125 million and the federal government $100 million. Texas put up $62 million... and made low-interest mortgages available to Sematech employees. But money alone did not carry the day -- New York had offered $80 million and Massachusetts more than $200 million. This time, the consortium negotiated seriously with only New York and a few foreign governments.

Money was not the deciding factor when they chose Austin in the 80s (they're not even getting any tax breaks out of this, which would normally be a huge part of the incentive), so why didn't they talk to anyone else in the U.S. this time? It sounds like they had their mind made up before negotiating a price: it's either Albany or another country. What's so special about Albany that precluded consideration of every other U.S. location?

Re:The answer is in the question

[Rupert]

Read the article

You haven't been here very long, have you? :-)

the real reason

[agusus]

"Why are they so excited about a location that is over 100 miles from their nearest constituent company (IBM)?" "

Maybe they heard of SUNY Albany's reputation as a party school and they want to meet some girls there?

Re:the real reason

[Anonymous Coward]

Intel has a huge unfinished sky-scraper for sale here in Silicon Hills? Anyone interested? I hear they will give you a great deal!

Albany v. Austin

[bigfatlamer]

Frist of all, there's absolutely nothing cool going on in Albany so there's no sort of "scene" to ruin (as there was in Austin).

So why Albany? Cheap (for the Northeast) housing, low overall cost of living, reasonable climate (I'd rather be cold than hot personally) and it's a decent transportation hub. Unlike Austin, Albany has a real airport. It's also less than a 3 hour drive to Boston and New York, 4 hours to Montreal and Philly and 6 hours to DC and Toronto. In other words, it's near stuff and it's cheap to live there.

Albany has a pretty decent state university (not UT but that's a plus in my book) and a medical school as well as a burgeoning biotech industry. Seems like as good a place as any to set up something like this.

E

Re:Albany v. Austin

[Just Another Perl Ha]

Unlike Austin, Albany has a real airport.

Hmmm... I guess you haven't been here to Austin in quite a while. Some years ago, the city took over the old Bergstrom AFB and we now have a "real" airport (as you put it).

Re:Albany v. Austin

[deceptakahn]

I dont understand why you would purposefully move operations to a place with a State Income tax!??!

This, coupled with *really* low cost of living, and incredible road and telecom infrastructure is the reason most companies relocate to Texas cities.

Re:Albany v. Austin

[YetAnotherAnonymousC]

Most of what you say is bogus.
This post is going to sound like a troll, but it's my honest observation.

Ok, I have lived in both Albany and Austin, among other places, and I still live in Austin now.

Austin does, in fact, have a very good airport. Yes, it is only about 4 years old. The old one, however, was STILL better than Albany County Airport. That airport is poorly maintained, most of the routes are overly expensive and owned by U.S. Air (the crappiest of the northeastern airlines). And the airport's ability to handle the long nasty winters is far less than that of most northern airports.

And speaking of the weather... it sucks. Even for the northeast, it sucks. These are no Boston (and I've lived there, too) or NYC style winters. These are VERY cold, very snow heavy winters, more like Buffalo than Boston in snowfall. Less total snow than Buffalo, but generally much colder as there is no lake to moderate temps. I remember I ended up considering it a nice day to go out to exercise whenever it go above 0 degrees F. And, of course, the winters are LOOONG. You don't get as much fall color as New England (many more conifers, less hardwoods). Spring is non-existent. Summers are hot. Not as hot as central Texas, but summers in Albany yield large quantities of nasty bugs and very green, slimy waters around the Albany area. Those tree covered hills and pristene lakes? They're up at Lake George and the Adirondacks. Yeah, you (and everyone from NYC ) can drive up there on the weekends, but most of the time you're only going to see the Albany slime and bugs. And industrial blight. And most of the urban areas in Schenectady, Albany, and Troy proper will remind you of the slums in Grand Theft Auto.

Unless you drive for an hour to the great outdoors (and only in the summer unless you're going to ski), there is nothing to do. Most of the malls are half vacant. The whole town congregates in one megamall, Crossgates. There are some good bars, especially up in Saratoga, but nothing like a good Texas bar.

Yes, the ground transportation infrastructure is better than Austin (more freeways and railroads, if you consider that a good thing). Cost of living, once all evened out, isn't as good as Austin. Your house may cost less, but you will pay way more in income taxes and insurance. Property taxes are a little cheaper than Texas, but that's because there's New York's state income tax. Sales taxes are about equal, and salaries a significantly lower in Albany than Austin.

And SUNY Albany is a joke. It's primarily a party school. I would not term it "pretty decent"
RPI is a good school in a lousy setting and a lopsided male-female ratio.

I wouldn't say there isn't some potential to techify Albany, but I won't hold my breath. Albany has a lot of permanent problems of the sort that are especially toxic to the high-tech worker set.

You forgot...

[Anonymous Coward]

Self-important Hollywood-types, rampant unchecked liberalism, unbelievably shitty traffic, arrogance....

Within Reason

[Skyshadow]

I'd say distance doesn't matter so much as long as you have a decent communications infrastructure and are in the same or immediately adjacent time zones.

I've found things really suck when, say, you're trying to work on the east coast and west coast (much less having people overseas) -- it's tough getting people together for meetings, tough to have people travel back and forth (you pretty much always lose a day flying west-to-east three time zones, whereas you can get between, say, San Jose and Boulder rather easily).

But man, if I never have to work directly with another set of developers in India, it'll be too soon -- that was just a nightmare.

Albany is a hidden gem.

[duffbeer703]

There are plenty of educated people and none of the traffic problems that you have in larger metro areas. If you live in Saratoga Springs, a popular suburb about 40-50 miles north you have an hour's commute.

This facility is going to be located right near two big highways, about 50 minutes from IBM headquarters. IBM has a big investment in the area, and NYS Government spends massive quanities of cash on IBM.

There is a whole office campus that the state is vacating to attract startups with cheap rents and prime office space.

Re:Albany is a hidden gem.

[Anonymous Coward]

A gem? I grew up in Albany. It's more like a lump of dog crap than a gem. There is ABSOLUTELY NOTHING TO DO. You have to drive somewhere else to have fun. Granted, there are a bunch of things within a two or three hour drive, but I'd rather not have to drive far.

Re:Albany is a hidden gem.

[zandermander]

If you live in Saratoga Springs, a popular suburb about 40-50 miles north you have an hour's commute.

Yeah, and after you and ten thousand other people who work in Albany decide that Saratoga Springs is a great place to live your "hour commute" will become your "two-and-a-half hour commute on a good day" and begin to resemble that of San Jose.

Suburban sprawl is NOT the answer...

Re:Albany is a hidden gem.

[Anonymous Coward]

Ditto. Maybe this will change it.

Re:Albany is a hidden gem.

[quinine]

You're absolutely right, actually. In fact, this has already started and will only be getting worse in the future. Too many parents with children being sent up North from Long Island, not enough infrastructure to support their spoiled asses. I would've preferred to have see 125mil go to this new fab thingy, and 25mil go to public transportation in the area.. Oh, wait.. none of you bastards would use it anyway.

Re:Albany is a hidden gem.

[Anonymous Coward]

There is ABSOLUTELY NOTHING TO DO. You have to drive somewhere else to have fun.

There is no time for fun with an efficient workforce. If I were a company I would want absolutely no distractions for my employees. In fact, I'd build my plant in the middle of the desert and develop housing around it to draw in the workers. Then I could control the entertainment I allow them to see as long as it doesn't effect productivity.

Re:Albany is a hidden gem.

[y0yodyne]

If you live in Saratoga Springs, a popular suburb about 40-50 miles north you have an hour's commute.

Actually, Saratoga Springs is about 20 miles north of Albany. It just seems like an hour 'cause of all the traffic on the Northway.

Albany here I come

[notanatheist]

I sure miss the NE USA. I spent 10 years growing up in Albany and there wasn't much to do at the time. It's mostly a historical place being the capital of NY and part of the original 13 colonies. I can imagine the outskirt towns like Colonie just booming with yuppies. Sure miss good ol' PS16. Anyone else attend there?

It's the women!

[edyu]

Well, Silicon Valley men to women ratio is wayyyyyyyyyyy tooooooooooo bad. I think the ratio at my company is 20:1. I heard that the ratio for NY is 1:9. Well, that would alleviate a lot of problems for the tech men. Of course, whether the nerds and geeks can compete with the bankers for the models is another issue.

Re:It's the women!

[Tablizer]

Well, Silicon Valley men to women ratio is wayyyyyyyyyyy tooooooooooo bad. I think the ratio at my company is 20:1.

Worse yet, now that their porno will be taxed, they will have to actually find real dates.

I don't know why NY is so eager to become another silicone valley after all the dot-com bustage. I guess they want their employment rate to go up and down like a psycho yo yo also. Maybe NY knows how to unionize to stop all the H1B visas during down times. Westies don't know how to do such things very well.

Re:It's the women!

[The Dobber]

They mistakenly assummed it would be like "Sex In The City". Wait till they find out that not all the women look like Sarah Jessica and Kim Cattrall.

interesting

[Anonymous Coward]

dunno why they are doing it, but I think it's a good idea. I've been through there, even interviewed out there, and I have to say that the place just looked depressing. It used to be a manufacturing are, but then many companies moved out(for whatever reason) and the place had a real down and out look to it. I swear it's the most depressing PLACE I'd ever been before. This looks like it might be good for the area.

Re:interesting

[Anonymous Coward]

You've obviously never been to Detroit.

Location, location

[wytcld]

Albany sits on a pretty nice conjunction of Interstates running to NYC, Boston, Montreal & points west, not to mention the Taconic Parkway running to NYC via Armonk. The city may be dreary, but the countyside in every direction is quite fine, surrounded as it is by the Adirondacks (one of the largest parks in the country), the Catskills, and the Green Mountains of Vermont, so the second home and ski-ing opportunities are wide open. It's also a good distance from any terrorist target (unlike NYC and Boston), and it's not in Texas.
___

Capital district

[ProfBooty]

Yes NY state taxes are high, but housing is very cheap in the Albany area. Traffic is very light. There is plenty of land to be developed and a good amount of empty buildings. Population is somewhere around 600k+ there as well.

You have one of the top engineering schools in the country RPI (NOT RIT) which consistantly is ranked by working engineers as one of the top 3 (Beating out MIT). General Electric is nearby and IBM is about 1.5 hours away. There is plenty of underused infrastructure (highways and cable) and an international airport nearby.

For recreation, you are 30-40 miles from both vermont and massachuessess so its easy to go skiing, lake george is 1 hour away and its about 2.5 hours to boston or NYC (3-4 to montreal).

It doesn't snow too much up there, but ice is a concern in the winter.

On a side note during my years at RPI i read that Troy has a population of 50k. I'm not sure where they all live though. Troy could use the money, last time i was there, the city Hall still read Tr city hall.

Re:Capital district

[jcronen]

Fully agreed... I went to RPI as well, finishing two degrees there, and although the city of Troy is as deplorable a place to live as the surface of Venus, the rest of the capital region is quite nice.

Although Albany isn't a city in the New York or San Francisco sense, it does have its own life. There are tons of diners, Tanglewood is nearby, Saratoga is one of the world's great racing centers (and has a life of its own during the racing months if you're not into racing), and all the "real" cities are within a reasonable distance. I would consider living there again, if the economic conditions were better.

Economically, it's a little distressed, but all it takes is a good shot in the arm to bring it to life. Its only downfall is that it's in-land.

Whether or not RPI helps is a different matter. Most RPI grads that stay within the northeast move to either New York or Boston, where the jobs are plentiful, the salaries are high, and the student loans are paid off quicker. However, I think it's more likely the other way around; RPI would benefit from the influx of companies. Their MBA program will thrive, and perhaps finally they could be more of a world-class institution and get the respect that the school deserves.

Re:Capital district

[ProfBooty]

i think RPI's main hinderance to getting more recognition is their masters programs. The programs while good, just don't get the recognition of other schools. RPI's strength is in its undergraduate education (and hockey team).

plus, what other schools sports teams are called the engineers (well they used to be before that stupid chicken).

Re:Capital district

[xjerky]

Bullshit! I spent 4 years up in SUNY Albany, and when it first snowed sometime in November the ground would never get a chance to be snow-free until the end of April! The months-long freezing cold plays a large factor in that, obviously....

Re:Capital district

[ProfBooty]

actually, it rains a lotmore in troy and there is a lot more wind than in suny since it is located on a hill right above the hudson.

i used totake classes at suny and it would be sunny there and rainy back in troy

One Word Explains it: "Illuminati"

[FortKnox]

Have you ever been to New York state (not the city, but upstate)??

Its well forested, which is wonderful cover for Illuminati complexes.

In desert areas, like Area51, humans eventually figure out something strange is going on; but in well forested areas, people just laugh at hunters "wild" stories.

The Illuminati want the consortium, so they brought it close to home so no good secrets would leak outside their grip, before they allowed it.

Now, I will give you specific coordinates to the entrance to their complex... wait... I hear someone com

Re:One Word Explains it: "Illuminati"

[Levendis47]

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAA...

The Illuminati is a ruse for the Pentavirate Cabal... or maybe it's the other way around...

The Freemasons do have a good hold on the upstate NY area tho... George Washington (aka. Adam Weischupt) spread his "seed" far and wide in his day...

why there?

[lingqi]

Why are they so excited about a location that is over 100 miles from their nearest constituent company (IBM)?

same reason as (one of the reasons) why Silicon valley started:

1) cheap land
2) cheap energy

somebody mentioned something about pollution: well, right now rochester, NY is one of the most heavily polluted cities in the US because of the Kodak plant there. i'm just dying to see (no pun, really) what's gonna happen after all these companies drop in. NY used to have more lax environmental laws than CA, which might be one of the reasons. that should (hopefully, anyway) be changing though.

Whoohoo! Endicott!

[mstyne]

A mention of IBM's facility in Endicott brought back some memories... okay, granted they were only from a few months back, but before I graduated from SUNY Binghamton, I used to drive through the facilities there a lot. The ominous stone wall with INTERNATIONAL BUSINESS MACHINES in small block letters really gives one a sense of nostaglia. Upstate NY is sort of a black hole when it comes to corporate enterprise and culture, maybe if some more businesses get the idea that it's cheap to operate there, the southern tier and capital city area will see some sort of renaissance. Right now, the only reason I would go to Albany is Mahar's Public Bar... I love me some Magic Hat!

Re:Whoohoo! Endicott!

[WebMasterJoe]

Right now, the only reason I would go to Albany is Mahar's Public Bar... I love me some Magic Hat!

Yeah! Mahar's rules! I've got about 100 drinks on the tour so far.

But Magic Hat is getting really popular up here - I've also seen it in most bars on Lark Street, plus Savannah's, the Big House, and even in the supermarkets! You have to give credit to a beer company that has unique little sayings under the bottle cap...

A smaller target?

[Geckoman]

Except for being the capital of New York state, is there anything there to make Albany an enticing target for terrorists?

After the attacks on NYC and Washington, it seems a lot of companies started questioning the wisdom of having large offices in high-profile locations.

Plus you get the added benefits of living in a less crowded area (for now, anyway).

Re:A smaller target?

[multicsfan]

The Watervliet Arsenal in Watervliet, across the river from Troy. As best I remember, the Watervliet arsenal is the only currently operating arsenals making all the gun barrels for Cannon and Artilery. It was also the only armory in the country that can handle 16" Battleship Cannon. This is where the gun barrels on the Battleships were handeled when the iowa class BB's were brought out of mothballs. There are alot of RPI projects around WWII concerning fabrication of long cylinders ;)

Knolls Atomic in Niskayuna just down the street from GE Corporate R&D plus there are R&D groups in the downtown GE Complex. I believe there is a small R&D reactor at Knolls Atomic. I don't know the current situation, but at one time back in the early 80's RPI ran the reactor. Source: Student government meeting where the head of security admitted that he did have a pistol as it was required by federal law for refueling operations where he had to be there as part of the armed security.

Ballston Spa. I don't know the official name of the place, but one of the Navy's nuclear sub training centers is there. Two of my RPI friends trained there before serving on Subs. Both had Rikover interviews as did several other of my friends in Navy ROTC.

RPI has a Nuclear Engineering program which includes a linear accelerator. (I worked there one year doing programming). There is (or was) a very small nuclear pile on campus used for training the nuclear engineers. As I understand it, just hot enough to keep them on their toes.

There is a company in the area that makes some critical jet engine part. They are the only company that makes them in the US. I believe its some type of gasket, but I don't remember the details of the conversation.

I'm an RPI alumnus (class of '76) and still live in troy about a block from RPI. Unfortunatly I'm currently an unemployed *nix/network sysadmin/troubleshooter/etc. I still participate with a couple of student clubs (RPI-ACM www.acm.rpi.edu, and RPI Players).

Back around 1980, IBM gave RPI an electron beam lithography machine. One of my friends worked on helping set it up.

There was a grad course back when I was a Sophmore at RPI where you could design and build a small scale integrated circuit. The equipment was in the Materials Research Center, IIRC.

Something I did not see mentioned is SPAC (Saratoga Performaing Arts Center) summer home of the NYC ballet and Philidelphia Philharmonic. They also have rock concerts. For those who like Coffee house style music there is Cafe Lena in Saratoga as well as the RPI student Union sponsered Mother's in the student union. Saratoga also has the Saratoga flat track as well as a Harness track. I'd put some pictures up, but I con't want to get slashdotted ;) I only have a 128K DSL line.

Po-town isn't that bad...

[Anonymous Coward]

It certainly isn't a large metropolis, and it's not the most beautifull rural getaway either... Awhile back there were some massive layoffs at the IBM plant, and it did hit the town pretty hard, and there are definitely some neigborhoods to avoid, but there are neighborhoods to avoid in any city. Spent four college years there fairly recently, and still head out rather frequently to see friends... Poughkeepsie definitely has its flaws, but its really not that bad.

Not just silicon in the valley

[Montag2k]

Not just for Silicon. Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute is building an $8 million biotechnology center, which they hope will form a biotech hub along with the University of Albany. The building will contain over 60 faculty members and 300 researchers, and is bound to attract a lot of attention from the private biotech industry.

There are also many hi-tech companies in the capital region. There is the Big One, but also there are several good small ones, including Plug Power, a company that is working on fuel cell power. Also, check out the Rensselaer Incubator Center (shoot, can't find a good link for that one). RPI helps startups by providing office space and other amenities - there have been some great companies to come out of this.

So, all of these together will hopefully kickstart the tech industry in the Capital Region!

-Montag

Shirley Ann Jackson

[Jedi Paramedic]

Surelyann, RPI's current president, has been very supportive and pivotal in trying to secure "high-tech" employers and industry to come to the Troy/Albany area (yes, I left out Schenectady on purpose - not because GE doesn't bring good things to life, but because they're not really as attached to the initiative as the pols in Albany.)

As part of this initiative, locals have come up with the moniker of Tech Valley to describe the upper Hudson region. The area does have a lot to offer, housing is cheap, sprawl is relatively low (stay away from Colonie, though) and as RPI used to describe in their admissions info, "It's not in the middle of nowhere, it's in the middle of somewhere!" (2.5 hours to NYC, 2 hours to Syracuse, 3 hours to Boston, 3 hours to Lake Placid, etc.)

As someone who grew up, went to high school,and lived in Troy, escaped to NYC, and then transferred back to (and graduated from) RPI, I can say that Troy (and the surrounding area) definitely has a lot to offer (it's been described as other alumni friends of mine not from Troy as a great place to raise a family) - so there is good reason for tech jobs to move there.

The biggest problem thus far, however, has been local opposition and people afraid of expansion. About 2 or 3 years ago, the Rensselaer Technology Park tried to bring lots of jobs to the area and spark the Tech Valley thing, but locals in the Town of North Greenbush, where the tech park is located, killed the plan. The proposed chip fab plant was to be a boon to the area, but local squabbling (always a problem in parochial Albany and Rensselaer Counties) got to it before it could take root. Unless there have been significant changes in very recent history, my guess is that the local hometown opposition ("we don't need no stinkin' chip fab plant!") will continue to be vocal.

For what it's worth, though - President Jackson, RPI and SUNY Albany could really lead the region into great things - IF the locals allow it. Not to mention the kick-ass, two-time NCAA (1954, 1985) champion hockey team! ;)

Re:Shirley Ann Jackson

[Anonymous Coward]

Shirley Ann is actively trying to destroy rpi. Please do not encourage her in this.

Re:Shirley Ann Jackson

[Jedi Paramedic]

They said the same thing about R. Byron Pipes, the last "shit-stirrer" at RPI. At RPI, the Roland Schmidt era led to complacency and stagnation within the faculty, a decrease in incoming research monies (at one point RPI had the highest-funded Chemistry research program of any U.S. university), and the town-gown relations went into the crapper.

Yes, change hurts whether it's at RPI or somewhere else, but when it's change for the better, get over yourself and work with the program. (I have to admit that trying to get rid of the acronyms (JEC, CII, VCC, DCC, C+CC, VIC, AS&RC, etc.) was a pretty dumb idea, and it was unnecessary to rename "old school 14" as "Academy Hall" ;) )

Re:Shirley Ann Jackson

[Anonymous Coward]

How is changing the focus of the school and trying to turn it into a MIT copy (notice she graduated from MIT) a good change? I was considering staying for my masters, but with the recent trends I doubt I will be.

Re:Shirley Ann Jackson

[Jedi Paramedic]

if you know anything about Surelyann, you'd know that her connection to MIT was one that she's very proud of, but one which was rife with discrimination and hard feelings.

How dare these women of color achieve advanced degrees in physics! (sarcasm)

Re:Shirley Ann Jackson

[Anonymous Coward]

I don't know about her past, but I can see how things are going now. The most galling example is, of course, the empac building

Incredible Bowel Movements

[T3kno]

The smell from that plant is reported to travel in excess of 150 miles when the wind is right. :)

Because Albany IS a hub already...

[Levendis47]

I went to school at RPI in Troy, NY (mmmm, how I miss Troy-gray skies)...
A few plusses for the Albany, NY area:

1) RPI has an excellent BigBlue-funded circuit design and nano/micro-tech program that's been growing and growing and growing over the past 10 years. Esp. now with Shirley Anne Jackson (the new Institute Prez) pushing hard for commerciallizing of the research and grad programs a la MIT.

2) Cost of living is dirt cheap. I live in Richmond,VA now, but the decade I spent in Albany pre/post-graduation, I never paid more than $500/month for rent and that got me a nice 800+ sqft. apartment on the Hudson waterfront.

3) It's close to everything that deams itself important in the Northeast... 3 hours to Manhatten, 5 hours to Philly, 2.5 hours to Boston, 1-3 hours to skiing and manufacturing in Vermont, New Hampshire, Massachussetts, Connecticut, and PA, 3.5 hours to Canada.

4) There's still good money to be invested in NYC and investors there are now looking for business plans that cut overhead and operations costs from the get-go... what better a place than one that takes less time to drive to than Hoboken or Hartford?

Of course, I'm saying the same thing about Richmond, VA now... 8^) but kudos to them for seeing that area as greener pastures and not just a has-been relic that so many want to make it out to be.

ciao,
Levendis47

Re:Because Albany IS a hub already...

[jcronen]

How can you say that?

Albany isn't a hub, if only because RPI has crappy intramural ice hockey teams with dorky green and grey uniforms named after Shakespeare characters.

Re:Because Albany IS a hub already...

[Levendis47]

Yeah, with lame-o boyfriend-girlfriend matching jersey names... like "Fortenbras" and "Montague"...

losers...

8^)

Speaking of losers... hehe... how've you been? Email me...

As for Albany, the best thing that City could do to improve their economic viability ("... because, I am NOT EC-O-NOMICALLY VIABLE!!!") would be to squirt some money at Amtrak and add another real Acela rail from NYC to Albany. But Pataki's too short-sighted for that...

Now I have to get back to not working and lurking postings...

You mean other than RPI, SUNYA and other schools

[gelfling]

RPI one of the preeminent science/engineering schools in the country. Suny-Albany one of the highest rated public universities in the country. Other corporate presence I think includes GE, Electric Boat, Watervliet Arsenal, NL industries. And BTW Albany is the 6th largest inland grain port in the world. It's also the capital of NY, like RTP is to NC and Austin is to TX so it's close to the seat of power and funding.

IBM will be closer than you think

[gexen]

I live and currently attend the University at Albany. Right now, they are actually building a research center with a grant from IBM to do some sort of chip research/manufacturing. So IBM will be closer than you may think...

As for the town itself, it's really cheap to live here and I'd like to keep it that way.

The U at A final plan is to have all the residential areas inhabited by freshman only, and after freshman year you move out. There's a problem with that, aside from the obvious not enough staff and that it's a shitty state school, there's not enough housing in Albany to accomadate everyone.

Re:IBM will be closer than you think

[Anonymous Coward]

There is plenty of housing in Albany, you jut need a car.

SUNY Albany's problems happen because of lame administration.

...because there's already research here

[Obsequious]

Research begets research. You don't just drop a major research facility in a place where there's no one to collaborate with.

GE Global Research Center
The Knolls Atomic Power Lab

GE Research has been around over 100 years, invented industrial diamonds and Lexan (among many other things; remember GE-cum-Honeywell mainframes?) and has employed several Nobel Prize winners.

Two world-class research centers, and that's just in Niskayuna. As others have mentioned, RPI is nearby. The local state University in Albany has a Turing Award winner on the CS staff.

Yes, I am a Computer Scientist at GE Global Research.

Re:...because there's already research here

[Anonymous Coward]

I went to school in Niskayuna. Recall the kids proudly proclaiming how high up on the USSR nuclear strike list Knolls was. I wonder if there's any way to confirm that...anyone got a link?

Re:...because there's already research here

[MORTAR_COMBAT!]

Yes, I am a Computer Scientist at GE Global Research.

i wish i were doing actual science, but they pay me too well to be a "software engineer" :( nice problem to have, i guess, until you wake up unemployed and no smarter than you were when you left college.

Re:...because there's already research here

[Obsequious]

Heh heh... no clue if that's true or not. I would tend to suspect it's a myth, since the USSR probably didn't publish their strike list, and even if the CIA (or whoever) knew it they probably wouldn't publish it to the citizenry to avoid frightening the public. :)

However, I DO like the guards in black ninja outfits who patrol the roof with M-16s.

It was also rather spooky driving past the place on September 11. They had it roadblocked entirely, and the guards were giving the evil-eye even to cars passing on the road.

Middle of Nowhere

[Oculus Habent]

Some good points about being away from everything:

• At night, you don't here sirens, and gunfire, and cars, and "city noise". You hear crickets, and wind, and a few cars.
• When you want a breath of fresh air, you can get it.
• If you want to go camping or hiking, swimming or fishing, et cetera, you can. You don't have to spend a few thousand planning a getaway when you're almost there.
• At night, you can drive to where there are no street lights, and see the Milky Way. You can count shooting stars - even without meteor showers.
• You can visit big cities and experience all the good things they have to offer if you choose, without having to life with the bad things.

Of course, much of this depends on how far away from everything you are. And for those who want the best of both worlds - most times a large corporate development goes in, the surrounding areas become more metropolitan.

And:

• I don't ACTUALLY want to go to Miami or San Diego. Some people don't enjoy large cities, while others do.
• If you think Albany, NY is the sticks, you've never travelled the open expanses of the Mid-West or the woods of Maine. Check the National Atlas and look at population density.
• There may not be as many places to go, but there's plenty to do.

Just thoughts.

Re:Middle of Nowhere

[NighthawkFoo]

One thing I forgot to mention...it's friggin' DARK here. Being used to the ever-present 'glow' from NYC, upstate NY was quite a shock. It's very odd to be able to look up and see more stars than airplanes.

The amount of light pollution in the NYC/LI area is incredible. Then again, streetlights are a precious commodity up here. Nearly all the highways and roads are lit in NYC/LI, so using your headlights while driving is more to let other drivers see YOU.

Re:Middle of Nowhere

[Anonymous Coward]

You've never been out of New York, have you? Implying San Diego is a densely crowded city is absurd. Of all the crowded places you could have chosen.

Once you get out of college, take a drive around the country.

Re:Middle of Nowhere

[jellomizer]

I live in Troy NY and I still do hear sirens (but average onces a week) Cars is depending how close you are to a main highway. Of course if you live on side roads then you will get less cars but if you live right along RT. 4 or RT. 7 Then there is a good amount of traffic.

At night even without street lights the stars are not as good as it can be. You still get a glow from albany lighting up the sky. Sure it is better then NYC and Hartford but it is not great spots for serious astronomy.

Re:Middle of Nowhere

[jafac]

The charms of Middle of nowhere -

I *do* hear gunfire some nights. Drunk cowboys driving up the street, shooting at yuppie cars parked outside. My neighbor got his VW shot up that way.

I *do* hear crickets, and wind, and frogs (during the rainy season, the frogs can be almost deafening) - and - no shit, coyotes. Where we used to live, there were thunderstorms, and the kids were afraid of the thunder. Now they hear the coyotes and they come running.

I do live very close to several state recreational parks, very convenient for camping and outdoor activities. Last July 4th weekend, my little town of 16k was jam-packed with 50,000 rowdy visitors with giant trucks and campers. Not fun.

Out of my back yard, I can see the milky way, shooting stars, etc. Somewhat of a nice thing without a hidden "dark side".

I'm so far away from the big cities, there's no big rock concerts, no opera, no plays, no nightclubs, (at least we have plenty of movie theaters, including one of the very very few drive-in's left - and some good local dining). Every store knows that there's no competition, so you pay through the nose for anything other than groceries. "Shopping" means either the internet, or driving 250 miles to the nearest big city. Repair people often make appointments to come and fix something, then they blow you off completely, and they know they won't lose any business. And the people are CONSERVATIVE. Like, *religious freak* social conservative. Not fiscal conservative. I got called for Jury duty last year. The case: Alleged horse thief. I shit you not.

There *is* a major university nearby, which is nice, because there are actual people younger than I am, the next town over. Unfortunately, housing prices are fucking outrageous because of that. (like, almost Silicon Valley-outrageous).

If I lost my job, I'd be fucked. I'd have to move.

GE R&D

[zemaxuser]

I haven't seen it mentioned here, but I believe that GE has a major R&D center in the Albany area. GE still has one of the better corporate R&D arms.

Re:GE R&D

[WebMasterJoe]

As a former intern at the GE R&D center, I can say that yes, they do have one in Niskayuna, just a few minutes outside Albany. And it's friggin' huge.

Also worth noting, RPI is just a ten minute drive away from downtown (full of lots of smart computer geeks), and SUNY Albany has, well, lots of students. Then there is the College of Saint Rose, which has something like a 4:1 girl/guy ratio.

Why? SUNY ALBANY +RPI

[Kevin Stevens]

SUNY recieved $350 million to some extent through IBM to build a nanoelectronics facility (IE Chip facility) at its CESTM building. The physics department at SUNY has much of its research going on there, and IBM also has a huge facility about an hour south along the NYS thruway. RPI is also located in the area, although I do not know what they have going on there as far as nanotech type stuff. Also, being in the capital means you get to benefit from all the government spending in the area, with interstates pouring out of the city to every major regional destination. Albany used to be a huge manufacturing area, but after big industry left, so did alot of people, making the cost of living dirt cheap in many areas-- $750 for a 3 bedroom apartment/month, for example. Really an almost ideal place to be. I wouldnt be surprised if it becomes a huge high tech city in the next 10 years or so.

http://www.albany.edu/tree-tops/cat/press/pataki _v ision.html
(yeah I used to go there)
-k

Re:Why? SUNY ALBANY +RPI

[Anonymous Coward]

We tried to get the grant from the millitary for nano tech research... don't remember who got it, or even if it has been decided yet

Most heavily polluted? Cite your sources..

[greensquare]

Now and then I hear an offhanded remark like that, seem like something the local media here in Rochester would mention once in a while. I've never seen a study or ranking that shows Rochester is one of the most heavily polluted cities in the US.

You may be mixed up. Might you be thinking about how heavily polluted the Hudson River is due to PCB dumping by IBM?

NY suing escaping companies?

[jxs2151]

Isn't New York suing companies that are trying to leave NY and incorporate elsewhere to escape the high tax burden?

I cannot find the news story about this but I remember quite well thinking that no company in their right mind (unless bribed by $200M) would locate in a state that tries to sue you when you wish to leave and cease being a tax slave.

Re:NY suing escaping companies?

[nomadic]

Tax slave? So they were forced at gunpoint to set up shop in New York?

Re:NY suing escaping companies?

[jxs2151]

No, but they are being forced (not a gunpoint but lawsuit-point by the state which means at gunpoint) to stay and be a tax slave.

There are a lot of very old companies in the 'Empire State' that were setup when then tax burden wasn't so heavy. Now that things have changed they wish to exercise their American right of choosing to relocate in a state that doesn't steal from the achievers to give to the losers, all to buy their votes.

While you may disagree with my philosophy about achievement and rights (see Atlas Shrugged you cannot fail to see the problems when a state uses force to keep a company from exercising their right to move their company elsewhere.

Re:NY suing escaping companies?

[nomadic]

What are you talking about? Taxes in NY state aren't that bad; if they were so many companies wouldn't set up shop there. Besides which, most of them incorporate in like Delaware, so they're not paying nearly as much as you seem to think.

While you may disagree with my philosophy about achievement and rights (see Atlas Shrugged [atlasshrugged.tv] you cannot fail to see the problems when a state uses force to keep a company from exercising their right to move their company elsewhere.

Considering how shamelessly corps threaten to leave in order to get tax breaks, I don't really mind if the state fights back.

Re:NY suing escaping companies?

[jxs2151]

I'm from Delaware so I have to agree that the incentive to incorporate there is why they all do. The down side to that is individual's income taxes are burdensome. But the net is a gain, since without those corporate taxes, Delawareans would certainly be paying higher taxes.

Considering how shamelessly corps....

Huge difference in philosophy that you and I are not going to resolve on ./ but I do wish that you would read the book I recommended. It might just change your mind about "shameless corps". Considering the fact that you owe your current standard of living to these "shameless corps" that you deride, I must say that your hypocrisy is astounding.

Re:NY suing escaping companies?

[nomadic]

I am familiar with the works of Ayn Rand. I find them utterly without value.

Re:NY suing escaping companies?

[jxs2151]

Did you say you have read them or are familiar? If the latter does that mean that your professor railed against her ideas so therefore you find them without value?

I get a huge kick out of people who dismiss her work out of hand while being afraid to read her books.

Re:NY suing escaping companies?

[nomadic]

Give me a break. What arrogance. I must be aping my professors' opinions, simply because I disagree with you? Rand will come up very rarely in philosophy courses, simply because she was such a mediocre intellect. Hell, one of my old professors was a well-known expert on Rand, and I still don't remember hearing her name in the class.

I strongly recommend you check out the philosophers who came up with much of the stuff Rand appropriated. Try Adam Smith, or Friedrich Nietzsche. If you want a more literate defender of laissez-faire capitalism, try Robert Nozick. No, they're not as easy to read as the Fountainhead, but believe me they'll be worth the effort.

Re:NY suing escaping companies?

[jxs2151]

So in other words you've never read a word of Rand's......

BTW, if you think Rand is all about Capitalism perhaps you should read the book I recommended.

Re:NY suing escaping companies?

[nomadic]

Actually I have read some. The sheer bad writing prevents me from reading more.

Rand is about more than capitalism, though not much more. It tends to appeal to younger, more naive readers who think they can identify with the characters; they're utterly convinced of their own superiority, and resentful of the world for not taking them seriously. Fortunately most people grow out of Rand before they hit their 30s.

Re:NY suing escaping companies?

[jxs2151]

Liberals do tend to attack the person when they are unable to justify there flawed beliefs.

As I sense that since you are not only attempting to belittle Rand (understandable but sad given that you have never read enough to understand more than what your profs poured into your head) but also me, I will take your leave.

Every discussion I have ever gotten into with a bleeding heart ends with the subtle suggestion that if I were only as smart, enlightened, educated, etc. as them that I would surely understand.

You are pitiful.

Re:NY suing escaping companies?

[Anonymous Coward]

What I find most interesting about Rand is the contrast between her writings and her personal life. She wrote about being objective, but personally was ruled by emotion. When she broke up with her lover, she tried to force him out of the movement, thereby splitting it.

Re:NY suing escaping companies?

[simonstl]

No, that's Connecticut.

They've sued Stanley Works for monkeying with how stock held in the union pension plan was voted so that they could depart to Bermuda. Stanley's held off for now.

There once was a time when corporate responsibility meant more than handing as much cash as possible to stockholders, but I guess it was brief.

Re:NY suing escaping companies?

[nomadic]

Liberals do tend to attack the person when they are unable to justify there flawed beliefs.

Uhhh, and conservatives don't. Go turn on the Fox News Channel, or turn on Rush Limbaugh.

As I sense that since you are not only attempting to belittle Rand (understandable but sad given that you have never read enough to understand more than what your profs poured into your head) but also me, I will take your leave.

Alright, obviously you're not particularly literate in English, as I already enunciated quite clearly that my professors never even mentioned Rand, her being a third-rate intellect that most serious scholars don't even bother with.

Every discussion I have ever gotten into with a bleeding heart ends with the subtle suggestion that if I were only as smart, enlightened, educated, etc. as them that I would surely understand.

In other words, the exact attitude you're assuming? Fanatics like you truly don't see that your tactics are the same as your enemies'.

You are pitiful.

Son, I think you're projecting.

IBM continuing education

[yankeehack]

IBM has an agreement with RPI to do distance learning for their employees not only engineers but managers too.

This move to have a research center near RPI does not surprise me.

Great, that's why I moved out

[motorsabbath]

Great - I moved out of Albany 10 years ago because there were no jobs there for a new engineer ...

Sematech Funding

[Lysander Luddite]

From 1988 to 1995, Sematech received $815 million in federal funding. That was half of their total funding budget. Since 1996 Sematech claims they only secure private funding. Now New York is paying $200 million.

Perhaps with the tech slump they are back to seeking government funding. Since the perceived loss of US DRAM production was the reason for starting Sematech in the first place.

Whatever happens you can be sure none of that tax money will be seen by the taxpayers again.

Re:Sematech Funding

[afidel]

Actually getting money out of the government is the best thing that can happen to the economy. The government has the lowest return on money spent in the entire economy, so getting it into the hands of businesses that are going to use it to expand the economy is a great use of tax dollars. For every dollar spent on this project probably 20-30 will go back into the local economy.

NWO

[MattLesko]

It's obvious that this is part of the grand schemes of the Illuminati.

Let the speculation begin.....

Other IBM locations

[yankeehack]

Not only your areas, but there is an IBM Microelectronics plant in the Burlington, Vermont area (the plant is about 3 hours away from Albany) and in southern Quebec.

IBM is Vermont's largest private employer. And it just weathered 1500 in job cuts. At least *you're* lucky enough to live in a state whose government officials actively recruits IBM and wants them to develop and grow there.

Just like the twenty other Silicon-Whatevers...

[Ars-Fartsica]

...this one will die a silent, lonely death.

You can't force the creation of a tech economy.

The first and most obvious point even if you were going to attempt such an inane enterprise is why you would put it in North America at all. India and China are clearly the emerging markets for this type of work.

Re:Just like the twenty other Silicon-Whatevers...

[NDPTAL85]

You can't force it, but you can do a bit more than simply nothing. Sillicon Alley, Route 128.....etc they're still strong tech hubs. As well as Atlanta, Dallas.....etc

to RPI or not to RPI

[Misha]

I am not going to diss RPI. hell, i applied and contemplated it as well. but claiming that your school is the best after ONLY having experienced your school is silly.

RPI is decent, but does it rank among the best CS and engineering schools? my guess would be no. Albany is close to tons of other universities, each with just as many if not more accolades as RPI. SUNY/Binghampton is an hour south-west, Cornell -- 2 hours south-west, Syracuse -- 1 hour west, UofR -- 2 hours west, SUNY/Buffalo -- 3 hours west, UMass/Amherst -- 2 hours east, MIT -- 3 hours east, SUNY/Stony Brook -- 2 hours south.

of course, we are dangerously close to getting into state vs. private school debate, but claiming proximity to the "best" school around as a major factor in the decision to put a research lab in Albany is shortsighted. If Silicon Valley was there because of Stanford and Berkeley, shouldn't we see the same trend in Boston and Pittsburgh? yet, there hardly is a tech-boom near MIT and CMU comparable to that of northern california. similarly, a smaller tech-boom near DC is hardly attributed to proximity to UMD, UVA and VATech.

just MHO...

Re:to RPI or not to RPI

[MORTAR_COMBAT!]

RTP in north carolina is situated in the triangle resulting from connecting the universities of UNC, Duke, and NC State. it was designed that way. sometimes proximity to technical work force is fairly key.

Re:to RPI or not to RPI

[Anonymous Coward]

Er, you are saying any SUNY is better than RPI for cs or engineering? Are you smoking crack? I know people who go to every school you mention, ones that have graduated from everyone of them and MIT and Cornell are the only comparable ones.

Note, I am biased since I am a RPI student, but check the usnews rankings if you need some kind of "subjective" view on the matter.

Re:to RPI or not to RPI

[TWR]

RPI does rank among the best Engineering schools, consistently.

CS? Well, it's pretty good, but it doesn't hang with CMU, MIT, Stanford, U-C Berkeley, U-W Madison, or UMd College Park (or a few other schools that I'm forgetting) in research output.

However, RPI puts a lot more effort into undergrad education than a lot of other schools, so it's a tradeoff. Back in the day, even intro CS classes (heck, virtually EVERY class at every level) at RPI were taught by professors. I don't know if this is still true.

-jon

Re:to RPI or not to RPI

[Anonymous Coward]

I went to RPI, and their CS program was not so strong as say SUNY Stony Brook. Engineering wise they are top 20 but in CS they were not. Recently they have made a concerted effort to hire good young faculty, so they are improving. However they suffered for years under the "It is only software" that is just not right.

SUNY Albany has world class CSI faculty, with a Turing Award winner on the faculty (Stearns) who recently retired. For theoretical computing, SUNYA is hard to beat. On the applied side, they have not allocated enough resources to really see just how good their applied faculty are.

Kaleyeros is the real mover and shaker behind this, the University is NOT responsible.

Re:to RPI or not to RPI

[Anonymous Coward]

Yes, this is still true, professors do teach most of the cs classes even though said classes are pretty overcrowded. even so, the professors *always* make themselves available.

Re:to RPI or not to RPI

[Anonymous Coward]

Courses I have taken not taught by professors:
Programming in Java/CSII (same grad student)
Computer Organization (he had a masters)

Other than those, all profs

Now THAT's spin!

[catfood]

The really unusual thing about the deal is that the state isn't offering any tax breaks or loans to lure the consortium to its capital.

Only a perpetrator or hapless victim of "spin" would look at the state paying outright cash for half of the cost of the new center and say, "Hey, the state isn't offering loans or tax breaks!"

bah

[Lord Omlette]

When I read 'Sili-Hudson', I assumed ya'll were talking about the Hudson River by Manhattan, not Albany in upstate NY... Hoboken sucks, we need more tech companies down here >_<

don't forget state income tax

[Anonymous Coward]

make more, spend (or save) more..

Austin was getting ruined before Sematech.

[Anonymous Coward]

I lived in Austin in the mid 1980's when Sematech idea was just barely beginning to be formed and not yet on the drawing board.

Austin was well on the way to being ruined by all the damned yankees moving down there. I'd only lived and worked there for about a year and suddenly found myself surrounded by practically the entire population of Pontiac, Michigan who migrated there en-mass. Austin used to be the emerald jewel of Texas but rapidly de-evolved into a hodge-podge of half-finished, poorly-planned and slipshod-implemented pieces-parts of what ideas all the invaders tried to transmogrify the city into becoming. The end result was a frankenstein monster but all the various body parts were not even from the same species.

The rest of the state now all but dis-owns our capitol city. It is not representative of what the rest of Texas is all about... but then I digress -- neither is Houston or Dallas.

Lower taxes? Yeah right

[HineyKiney]

IBM started in my hometown of Endicott NY. For over fifty years they have been the number 1 employer in the region. But slowly over the years more and more people have lost their jobs as IBM moves away from our area for better locals all over the world. Recently a group of investors bought a large portion of what is left of IBM in Endicott in an attempt to save what was left. A lot of people are blaming high taxes both local and state for a reason that IBM is moving away. If anyone is interested they can read my local paper there are stories everywhere. Press and Sun Bulletin

Albany will NOT become Austin.

[mfavin]

I just laugh at the politicos in New York who think Albany is going to become a tech powerhouse like Austin. Albany is simply not a place people want to move to other than to get a paycheck. Austin grew like crazy the last 20 years because of many reasons, none of which Albany has: 1) A world-class engineering school at UT Austin 2) Another decent engineering school 1 hour away (Texas A&M) 3) Sunbelt climate-- Albany is cold and snowy 4) Low taxes. Texas has no income taxes. 5) The 4th highest percent of college graduates per capita in the country 6) A real cultural scene- more live music and events than a city 10 times its size. 7) Austin is just a nice yet hip place to live. Albany is about as nice as cold, runny eggs. While RPI is a very good school, it's small and SUNY Albany doesn't even have an engineering college--- or even an engineering department!

Re:Albany will NOT become Austin.

[quinine]

I wondered about this too. Huge fab being built for SUNY, a school w/ ZERO EE. Makes you wonder if an H1B will be requisite to get a job there.

Re:Albany will NOT become Austin.

[y0yodyne]

SUNY Albany doesn't even have an engineering college--- or even an engineering department!

Back in the mid '80s, SUNY Albany planned to start a school of engineering. When RPI got wind of it, they flexed their political muscle and derailed the effort. Why? Because if you could get a decent engineering degree with yearly tuition of $2000 (circa 1985), why would you go to RPI to pay $10000 per year?

Re:Albany will NOT become Austin.

[afidel]

Because you want a real education and no one actually pays the full 20k/year unless they are so wealthy they can actually aford it?

Re:Albany will NOT become Austin.

[Anonymous Coward]

SUNY New Paltz has a engineering department, but they are about 80 miles south down the NYS Thruway.

Re:Albany will NOT become Austin.

[otterhookgraphics]

Maybe SUNY doesnt have an engineering course but we still have RIT, RPI and nextdoor in Mass is MIT. Get real, screw Texas A&M. Yeah Texas is so great, thats why Intel still hasnt finished that new plant in Austin right? Nice skeleton of a building ya got there dude!

Actually that's CT Re:NY suing escaping companies?

[kbs]

Connecticut is suing Stanley Works to prevent them from incorperating in Bermuda, since companies incorperated in Bermuda don't pay any taxes.

It's alphebetical !!

[tolleyl]

I think that they're just going through and developing the A cities first. First it was Austin and then Albuquerque and now Albany. I think that they must just be too lazy to turn to a new page in their atlas index. My money is on Ancorage next. Think about it. . .Plenty of room, no traffic and they have Texas beat for income taxes since they actually pay you every year!

Re:Most heavily polluted? Cite your sources..

[phillymjs]

http://www.google.com/search?sourceid=navclient&q= Rochester+Kodak+pollution

I look forward to seeing whatever query you'll be submitting as an "Ask Slashdot" in the near future, since all of their recent ones have come from other people too lazy to do a Google search for one thing or another. :-)

~Philly

NYS Funding a possible reason

[giminy]

One reason they might consider relocating to Albany is an initiative started by the State two years ago. The state pays for University students to work for companies all over Central New York. The state started the program to try and get more high tech companies to move in, and it works.

I am currently working that way and my paychecks, while coming from my university, are actually paid for by the state of New York. My group has developed two complete software packages for different companies up here already, and it doesn't take much overhead for the companies to tell us what to do...so these companies are getting essentially free labor (well, they pay taxes and some of their tax money pays for us).

Granted University labor isn't the best labor in the world all the time, but you can't argue with the price.

Pontiac Michigan

[Anonymous Coward]

suddenly found myself surrounded by practically the entire population of Pontiac, Michigan who migrated there en-mass. Austin

Hah! I remember back then that there used to be a billboard on I-75 just south of Pontiac that said "The last one out, please turn off the lights!"

fa!

[Anonymous Coward]

Sematech is a government-big business boondoggle that should have been liquidated years ago.

Their Poor Children!

[nick_davison]

Has nobody told them that since the end of the dotcom boom, there's been a mandatory death sentence on anyone coining Silicon[Exciting Geographic Term]?! Their poor children will now have to grow up alone, knowing Daddy was too stupid to avoid buzzword Silicon- prefixes.

Have you noticed how every state seemed have a SiliconSomewhere two years ago that was going to push that state forward and now no one remembers them except for the poor fools who thought moving from SiliconValley to SiliconCornPlanes really was a good career move?

Still, at least he can go to SiliconJail before being executed at SiliconGallows, his body taken along SiliconRoad to SiliconGraveyard and dumped in SiliconHoleintheground.

Of course, whoever came up with this also probably still calls themselves an E-Consultant and still works for an i-deas firm.

RPI

[squant0]

Well, RPI is there and just won a pretty big contract for doing work for IBM and the likes, so this may just be a follow up on that deal...

Can't wait

[Anonymous Coward]

Albany has more IT jobs that one would think. Then again...don't come to albany if you want to work someplace else be my guest. It just means I'll be making more money and be doing R&D work.
STAY AWAY!!! We don't need nor want you!!

Where is the $210 Million coming from?

[Anonymous Coward]

NY Times won't let me in, and poster obviously doesn't have a clue.

One main problem with Albany

[jellomizer]

Albany NY Is a highly political minded area. You have to keep in mind that most of the population works for the state. I grew up in a Albany suberb and my high school had a bad food ball team but our Debate team was top in the nation. But with all the political action. A lot of people are extreamly Political Correct and going to political correct schools. From all this political correctness a lot of people wont talk to anyone else with the fear of offending them.

"We dont get earthquakes" -- hah

[Preposterous Coward]

Don't fool yourself. Every part of the country gets earthquakes. They may not be as frequent as in California -- rare enough that you may even live your life without experiencing one -- but they do happen. Example: "The biggest earthquake on record in New York rolled underneath Massena and Cornwall, Ontario, early on Sept. 5, 1944, toppling chimneys, collapsing roofs and splitting open the ground. It registered 5.9 on the Richter Scale - strong enough to be felt in Detroit - and caused $2 million worth of damage." Or this: "Certainly, seismic activity on the East Coast is much less than the West Coast. But, if you look at the risk, the potential is just as great because of the population along the eastern seaboard."

It's true that 5.9 isn't particularly big by west coast standards, but really really huge earthquakes do sometimes strike in surprising places. Example: "In the winter of 1811-12, the central Mississippi Valley was struck by three of the most powerful earthquakes in U.S. history." What's more, "Because of differences in the geology east and west of the Rocky Mountains, the effects of a magnitude 7 quake in the midcontinental United States could be far worse than those of the 1989 magnitude 7 Loma Prieta, California, earthquake."

So don't get complacent. Earthquakes in east coast states aren't as common, but they can be nearly as large and are often shallower (causing more surface damage); furthermore, the structures, people, and emergency systems are not as well prepared to handle these infrequent events as they are in places like California where they happen all the time.

I don't know...

[Anonymous Coward]

It sounds more like a Shelbyville or Ogdenville idea to me.

Wow, this is some great news.

[yeoua]

Great news for us guys in the northwest majoring in some kind of computer tech. I live in Connecticut... and there are basically no interesting computer jobs here. Yea, we got the UTC stuff, and that is quite interesting, but not what I'm looking for as a career.

What I am looking for was some of the stuff in California... but the problem was that it was in California, which is all the way across the country, plus with its 2x price on everything... it doesn't seem very inviting to a poor college student. So sticking some stuff in New York is quite the advantage for students up here... considering the schools up here in the Boston area and such.

All I gotta say is ... it's about time we got to see a chunk of the action :)

Chip Design

[leibnizme]

New York is a huge area for the chip design market, especially ASICs research. IBM's Microelectronics Division, and more specifically its EDA (Electronic Design Automation) facility, is in the Hudson Valley.

So a leading chip manufacturer would be wise to center itself in such a leading area of cutting-edge R&D!

Mixed feelings

[Vidar Leathershod]

Living in the area, I would like there to be more jobs, and more competition for those jobs. On the other hand, I lived near Austin when in college, and there is way too much traffic down there. I like my area the way it is (i.e. nice and quiet). We already have a huge problem with city people infesting the area, building and buying second homes. Thus people raised in the area are sometimes forced out, since they cannot afford the skyrocketing property costs.

It would be nice to see these jobs go to people who need them in the area, but I have a feeling that people will migrate from the city to find easier pickings, and thus raise property taxes even more. Thankfully, we do have the star program, so hopefully few elderly people will be forced out of their homes, to be replaced with someone who wants to make their big money in the city, but doesn't want to live there.

Vidar

CRP Huntsville, AL

[Anonymous Coward]

Sounds a lot like where I work... Cummings Research Park in Huntsville. I imagine the cost of living to be about comparable with taxes lower than Albany. Plus, it's already here, and there's a mix of government and private sector, so you are somewhat sheilded from downturns in the economy.

Heh heh heh

[NDPTAL85]

Whats the point of toilling thru 4 years of college to get a fancy Computer Science, CE, or EE degree and then a nice 6 figure high paying high-tech $$$ BLING BLING $$$ job if you aren't going to use some of that dough to buy a nice SUV? I mean status symbols are used by all mamals. How else would someone who is doing well financially display it to the rest of the community without having to personally walk up to you and say "I'm doing well finacially?" ???

Re:Heh heh heh

[Computer!]

I have a 9-inch cock, but I never installed a window in my pants. I say, let someone else find out the old-fashioned way ;)

Yeah, right...

[Cheetahfeathers]

I wanna freeze my *ss off and eat only boring american food. Let's move somewhere away from fairly nice weather, a hugely great and diverse selection of culture (including it's great food), and so many other nice things that makes it a great place to live.

Places for me to move to, other than the silly valley, would have to be diverse in terms of culture, very accepting of alternate lifestyles (ie. it would have to be somewhat civilized), and NOT have snow. Not even a little snow. The most I've seen here is some in the tops of the hills near here, not any down below.

Re:Yeah, right...

[multicsfan]

Well there are at last 2 excellent Indian restaurants, one in downtown Troy. There are several nice Japanese restaurants with hibachi (sp) tables. There is a nice indonesian restaurant. There are many others in the area, I'm only mentioning the ones I personaly have sampled.

Both SUNY Albany and RPI have several foreign student organizations. I know the RPI ones usually do a presentation on their country including food samples once or twice a year. I ran one of the student film programs. I got an emergancy call one saturday to show a film as they normal projectionist hadn't shown up. This was for the India club. I spent some of the time talking with one of the club officers asking about the film and the players in it as the film was in one of the languages from India.

We havebn't had much snow the last 10 years. I think I've only had to shovel the sidewalk a couple times all winter.

Not a Loan or Tax Break, Exactly...

[John Hasler]

New York State will supply the remaining $210
million. The really unusual thing about the deal
is that the state isn't offering any tax breaks
or loans to lure the consortium to its capital. ...just an outright handout of more than half the cost of the facility. Not a "lure"? Ok.

Re:Not a Loan or Tax Break, Exactly...

[sbeitzel]

You're wrong. The state IS offering tax breaks to members of the consortium, just not for this particular deal. The NYTimes story left a whole lot out. Trust me, there is plenty of reciprocity in this deal.

Corporate welfare

[mlinksva]

Plain and simple. Doesn't matter that it's money for tech rather than pork bellies. The rest of upstate NY has been in a tailspin for many years. Some of the highest taxes and unemployment rates render the cheap cost of living moot for most businesses and people. Rather than forking over cash to IBM and the like NY needs to cut taxes and bureaucracy, benefitting everyone in the state, not just those powerful enough to wrangle welfare and newcomers. I highly doubt Albany will become a vibrant tech area as Austin has (and Sematech is only a small part of the Austin phenomenon -- it is also the most liberal city for many hundreds of miles, making it a Schelling point for creatives in the South -- Albany OTOH has much tougher competition) and it's sad to see government always chasing last decade's one-trick pony. State and local government should not attempt to turn their region into a mecca for anything in particular. The best meccas become so organically. Who can tell what Albany, or other city will could become known for in decades hence? Nobody. By keeping taxes high and throwing money at a few favored companies politicians are only ensuring future stagnation.

Loans And Tax Breaks

[ozborn]

And while the state will put up $210 million over the next five years for the new center -- Sematech will supply $193 million -- it did not agree to give the consortium any tax breaks or loans, a frequent element of the state's deals with private industry.

So instead of giving them a loan (which taxpayers might possibily be able to collect on some day) New York State taxpayers simply forked over $210 million dollars. Wow, I'm guessing New York state residents are just thrilled over this one.

Incidentally the project is only worth $400 million, so although the State is forking over the majority of the cash although it is getting none of the profits. Needless to say this was all negiotated in secret, which is apparently how it works in a democracy. I know I sound cynical, but it's hard not to be upset watching public money being used for private profit.

Re: Grad Program and other decision[digression...]

[Anonymous Coward]

There masters program [or any grad program for that matter] doesn't seem like it will improve any time soon, though this may help.

One good thing has happened to the school since Jackson took over--it's gotten money. Lots of money. At the same time, it has shifted its focus away from its best aspects, attempted to merge aspects from other schools (our "peer institutions" as she is fond of calling them), and piss off a lot of people in the process.

The most notable occurred this past spring. Right around spring break, when students had already left campus and were trying to enjoy themselves, Jackson presented to the Board a proposal which she claimed had been approved of my the student body--a proposal which nobody seemed to have known about or expected--which would have prevented a large number of seniors from taking place in comencement excersises. This sudden change in school policy was initially passed--less than half a semester, about two months, away from the event which students' families had already gone through great pains to ensure that they could attend--and after large student backlash was finally postponed until this upcoming year where it may take affect.

But I digress, we were discussing their masters program. I know of at least half a dozen current masters students and even more undergrad students who have decided not to persue further education at RPI because of yet another decision which did not seem to be well thoughtout.

The school fundamentally changed the financial situation for graduate students. From now on [for current students, there is a one year grace period], grad students no longer have the option to pay by the credit as they have done for as long as I know at RPI; this leaves many people who have been working on a degree part time with a part of a degree they'll never complete. For the others, another part of the change will leave them with no funding as TAships have been limited to [1 or 2? years] and any additional funding must be supplied by departments, and not the school itself. This has been criticized not only by grad students [and undergrads who realize how short sighted these decisions are], but by the faculty as well (which is underscored by the fact that a recent survey shows that 92% of the faculty lack confidence in the current administration)--especially those in programs such as Architecture and Humanities and Social Sciences (including its new Cognitive Science department) which sees these new decisions as the end of their programs as they simply can't sustain the financial burden.

In one of the final school papers of last school year, there was an editorial by a graduating senior, who had several relatives--including her father and two of her brothers--attend RPI [one was still attending I think?]. In her editorial she stated her discontent with the current administration and how the school was being run, and how her family, which included younger siblings including an incoming college freshman next year, had decided that they would not send another member of their family to RPI.
FWIW...

Albany? Yuck!

[Soong]

Albany is the ugliest, grungiest, most depressing mat of suburban sprawl I have ever seen.

At its worst: SUNY Albany is a whole bunch of same looking grey concrete buildings.

They'd be better off in Pittsburgh.

Richmond?

[Anonymous Coward]

What are you doing in Richmond? I'm from there, but I live in Philly these days. I remember it being relatively cheap, but outside of the Federal Reserve and associated banking industry it didn't have much to recommend it. Old businesses like Robbins, Reynolds and Philip Morris, but that's about it.

An easy place to live, but not much else to say for it. So near to DC but it feels like another planet! How does the capitol of the CSA hold up to your list of standards exactly?

Albany and the Hudson Valley

[Anonymous Coward]

The Mid-Hudson Valley is actually already a pretty big high tech area. The only real issue is that all the tech is owned by one company IBM. Poughkeepsie and Kingston used to be the Center of IBM's main frame manufacturing. In addition the Semi-Conductor manufacturing facility in East Fishkill is one of the most advanced centers in the country.

Long time ago, NOVA did a program on Cities and the infrastructures they need. At one point there's a map of the electrical grid in the back ground and there's this honkin big feeder line that just ends in the middle of nowhere. That in the middle of nowhere location is East Fishkill.
Amazing how much power Semi-Manufacturing takes.

So there's infra structure. The New York State Educational Research Network (NYSER-NET) has it's offices in Albany. And last I heard the main conduit for that network was going to run along the NYState Thruway. Which runs down the Mid-Hudson Valley.

I often used to think that one of the main reasons why the Mid-Hudson Valley never took off was that there was only one game in town IBM, and if you didn't work for them you dind't work High Tech. So if they were to diversify that area, would open up a lot of opportunities.

Re:Albany and the Hudson Valley

[otterhookgraphics]

Don't forget Motorola in Kingston

Albany escapee!

[Anonymous Coward]

I spent one winter in albany and I beat a hasty retreat to North Carolina where it was nice and warm and I could have a boat in my back yard and catch crabs off my dock.

The value of your money is NO factor when compared to the isolation of upstate NY, the ice storms, the lack of culture and the traffic on the north way.

Plus the sports teams suck! booooo river rats! what the hell kind of name is that?

A move in the RIGHT DIRECTION...

[Anonymous Coward]

... though it's still on the WRONG side of THE BORDER. From my canuck point of view, anyway.

why NY state ?

[vruz]

that's an easy one.

it's in the USA. and it's far away from St. Andreas Fault.

there must be other places equally attractive on the east coast, but I'm not sure how many cities are eager to pour 200 M into a hi tech project that will benefit a few big companies, and just a few local employees.

Perhaps the guys in wall street want to have first row seats, and "control their investment" more closely.

We have IBM

[gnuLNX]

We have IBM, houseing is amazingly affordable here, traffic is very light. I just moved to Albany and I loave it.

Later

I can't wait

[Anonymous Coward]

I just finished buying a house. I got it for about 10k under it's worth, and in a great place for you stupid TECHY'S with more TECH money than you know what to do with. Can't wait to screw you over when you come looking for a home!!!

Figure 3 hours for Canada

[barzok]

I used to live about 20 minutes north of Albany, and it was a 2-hour run to Plattsburgh. P-burgh to the border is another 15-20 minutes.

HOWEVER, keep in mind that once you get north of Warrensburgh (I-81 exit 23), you can kick up to 80 as long as you've got a radar detector. And even faster between Lake Placid (exit 30) and just south of P-Burgh (exit 34 or so) - I paced a half-dozen Montreal-bound trucks (empty) at 85 or so last winter. Once it's dark up there, no one's on I-81 and you can just cruise.

It's all in the money

[sbeitzel]

Nobody seems to have mentioned the fact that the state of NY has spent a considerable amount of time and money "pre-permitting" semiconductor manufacturing sites, trying to attract semiconductor manufacturing into the area. Of five sites, one was already snapped up by IBM, and the state of NY gave the company a sweetheart deal amounting to tax breaks that totalled 20% of the total project cost (it costs $2-3 BILLION to build a semiconductor manufacturing facility - you do the math). Albany Nanotech has also been in the works for quite a while. They went public with their plans for the 300 mm site last year at SEMICON West in San Francisco, so I guess nobody told the board at Albany Nanotech that the whole thing was a secret. And what they're touting as the benefits of the site are huge (for the companies involved). Imagine, having someone else pay for the privilege of doing YOUR COMPANY'S R&D. What does the state get out of it? They get the $$$ that come with hosting a semiconductor fab (1000-1500 jobs just within the fab itself) that pay well, plus the added jobs that come with vendors and secondary businesses, which raise the taxes in the region. The state of NY stands to make itself a tidy bundle, so they're looking at is as a long-term investment.

Thoughts on Albany.....

[Shant3030]

After spending four years in Albany as a student, I came to observed much about my surroundings...

Albany is an up and coming city. Everything you want is in Albany... Culture, entertainment, nightlife, education, etc... Lark Street is a microcosm of NYC's Greenwich village (emphasis on the word microcosm). It has excellent restaurants of all ethnic backgrounds.

Education, especially higher education, is top notch. You have the two of countries best universities, RPI and University at Albany, 10 miles apart. Also in its vicinity are Union College, Skidmore and Siena. This provides for a great knowledge base and an area where people of knowledge would be attracted to. Not to far away, is also Cornell University. Albanay can provide graduates a nice alternative to moving to NYC or any other large metropolis. It can give you the big city feel, without compromising its county charm.

Living is immensely cheap. Road Runner cable is the best. You can a hooked up cable system for under $50/month. Broadband is cheap as well. It costs $50/month for three IP addresses. Yes, you can use a router and what not, but most ISP's, such as Optimum Online, only provide customers with one IP. Ten miles east, you are in the country in a beautiful house with a nice yard. In the city itself, you can live in a great apartment for about $500 a month. Partying at night is real cheap. Cabs are always in service and they are relatively inexpensive. Albany has good cheap bars and people party hard. The school's number one party ranking might be a bit over-exaggerated, but the city as a whole, has a good time. Alot of good bands come to the area, probably because of its central location between boston, nyc, buffalo and montreal.

Now the bad... and trust me, they are a nightmare...
Traffic... Albany's roads just are not made for high amounts of traffic. They dont have turning lanes, so most of the time are stuck in a lane waiting for a car to make a turn. YOu can switch lanes, but then you are caught behind a bus... Most of the roads leading in and out of the city are two lanes, each direction. This leads to the problem of public transportation. No trains, no subway... just buses (CDTA) and cars. This causes traffic nightmares. I lived 3 miles from school and it took me, at times, 20 minutes to get there.

Albany has a huge ghetto. Basically the area between pepsi arena, new scotland, clinton ave and quail, is mostly low income. Petty crime is high and enough of a nuisance to cause citizens to be angry.

The weather in Albany is miserable. Between the months of October and April, the sun comes out, maybe twice a week. There is a constant grey cloud over the city and it rains all the time. Albany gets a good amount of snow, and it can come down anytime between the afore mentioned months. It is a windy city as well, so this adds to the miserable cold. For months, we never went outside, but being a Comp Sci major, its ok, never had the time too. From April to September, Albany is awesome! The sky is blue and the air is clean. The parks are pristine and there are some cool festivals (Larkfest in early September, Parkfest in May and Tulip Festival in mid-May).

All in all, Albany has what it takes to be a success. I'm proud to have been a student of the Univesity at Albany and to have graduate with a BS in Comp Sci. Hopefully, the school will put its best foot forward and the city of Albany will welcome this huge endeavor with open arms....

Oh yeah, when in Albany... go down to Lark street and pick up a Bombers Burrito... Bar-b-que chicken,no beans on a spinach wrap for $5.65... its the size of a football!!!!!!

Sorry, you're all missing the point....

[cfreel]

It's not infrastructure.

It's not location.

It's not RPI (did you read what this was?? It's _not_ computer science... it's material science... thin film deposition for making chips, etc).

The _real_ reason is that there is a brilliant physicist at SUNYA who has been doing fantastic research there for more than 10 years... and it's in materials science. I should know... he was my advisor as an undergrad. Dr. Kaloyeros... (of course, by this point he has an army of phd students and post docs personally trained by him, so that helps a lot, too...).

Go look into the press releases. Most of the things people are pointing out here are irrelevent; it all comes down to the talent that's there, and it's at SUNYA (perhaps ironically). :^)

Schenectady

[CaptainSuperBoy]

Is a piece of garbage shaped like a city. The only thing keeping it going is of course GE. Around Albany and Schenectady is a nice area though. I found it a little dreary, but it's a great place to have a family and a good tech job. There are some top-notch school districts, cost of living is low, and outside of the cities it's pretty safe. Niskayuna is nice.

I'm not normally a flamer but...

[otterhookgraphics]

Isn't about time that people get INFORMED information before they go and slam something they don't quite know enough about to give an educated answer to?

Several factors have made Albany New York the perfect Hub for technology:

1) MIT You know, that little college that trains geeks to be professional geeks? Yeah, Mass is less than 20 minutes away from Albany

2) RPI thats another one of those little colleges that train people to be IT Pros and its only in Troy, less than 10 minutes away.

3) RIT Hmmmm, thats in Rochester NY, we beginning to see a trend here?

4) CSX Rail System runs right through downtown Albany (Selkirk CSX Hub is 10 minutes away) as does AmTrak passenger trains so shipping goods and transporting employees isnt an issue. Both passenger and cargo trains run everywhere across North East, including NYC, Boston, Syracuse, Rochester, Jersey, and Manhattan. Need I go on?

5) Albany is almost like Rome. ALL Roads lead to Albany. One of the nations largest highways runs right smack through the middle of the Albany Silicon District. Interstate I90 runs from Boston Mass to the state of Washington. NYS Thruway I87 Exit 23, which would be the exit you would take for Silicon Area of Albany, goes south to NYC and picks up I95 South. I87 North goes to Canada, 787 goes from Exit 23 NYS Thruway through Albany and North. With highways and railways this convenient, you could almost live anywhere within 50 hrs of Albany and have the luxury of living in a great community.

6) Some of the smartest trained professionals in Silicon Valley were trained right here in New York or Mass at either RPI, MIT or RIT and even now, Hudson Valley Community College is starting new 2 year degrees and SUNY University is also expanding its Technology training. If Albany had the jobs in addition to the colleges, people wouldn't leave NY to find work. This will help our economy.

7) The person who claimed that Albany is boring is just plain nuts. Night life has improved greatly since he/she attended college here. I'm sure of it because he/she mentioned QE2 as popular nightlife here. Heck, that place hasnt been in business as QE2 in almost a decade. Besides, as it is, most people commute here for work. Springfield Mass is one hour from Albany by car and less than that by train. Most people spend that much time each morning at the bagel shop before work. As someone else mentioned, vacationing is excellent here. Withing a 2 hr drive, you are transported into many many different places that actually seem foreign to Albany. You can camp in the Adirondacks, Ski in the Catskills, explore lighthouses on the coast, visit a historical battlefield in Lake George, see a live concert at the Pepsi Arena, or an "Off Broadway" play at Proctors Theater.

8)Albany International Airport is becoming a very large airport which can accomodate the largest jets since its upgrade a few years ago, and includes new terminals with bleeding edge technology. Daily flights to LaGuardia, and Kennedy as well.

9)IBM still owns much of its original Kingston plant even though its isnt running it like it used to And Motorola is also here. Both of these companies could rebound with Albany helping them.

10) Someone mentioned, why not James Island SC? WHY James Island SC is what I want to know? A good friend of mine moved to Wilmington NC about 15 minutes from Myrtle Beach SC only a few years ago because he heard of great opportunities there and low cost of living etc. Bottom line, ITS ALL LIES! The picture poastcard appearance that was portrayed turned out to be, livin in a trailer, dirt for a lawn, everyone had a truck with a dog cage in back and a pregnant teenage daughter. The attitudes in NC and SC especially on the coast are still very racially motivated and oh yeah, want an ISP? Good luck!!! Yer gonna need it. After spending quite a long time looking for one, he finally had to settle for an out of town providor, had to pay long distance charges and was ripped off because, many of those NC and SC communities still have strange notions that the only ISP out there is AOHell and becuase of Blue Laws still being in effect, if you dont offer temptation, people wont looks at porn. He ended up moving back to NY 2 years later and suddenly got a good paying job.

11)Cost of Living is NOT bad. You do the math, an Albany Brownstone Apt on Washington Ave goes for around $900 month with Washington park and Cathedrals near by. 2 Blocks over, a Brownstone off Lark Street is more like $450-$550 month. Similar buildings, just different block and no view of park. Gas costs $1.39 per gallon for cheap stuff. Can of Coke is $.55, bottle is $.99. McDonalds has dollar menu, side street parking is free, Average cost of 2 drivers licences classes is $55 for 8 years, a new Ford Windstar loaded is $24,000-$29,000, a slice of pizza is a buck. Anyway, you get the point.

The bottom line is, we in Albany and outlying areas are tired of this bad rep we've gotten over the years. EVERYONE I've met online says, "Albany? Isnt that a suburb of NYC?" They couldnt be further from the truth. WE have beautiful county, mountains, rolling hills, caverns, waterfalls, cities, rural towns, theaters, concert halls, skiing, backpacking and much much more, all within a short drive. Why wouldnt anyone want to come here?