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China to Develop Windows Clone
jimmu writes "According to both The Register and The People's Daily
China is set to develop a windows workalike equivalent to Win 98, with full compatibility with Office 200 and Word. Apparently, 18 companies and universities have been working on the 2 initiatives, with a 1.0 version supposedly already released to certain government offices."
1800 more releases to go!
Uhhhh, what's wrong with WINE?
Is this an independent development, or an offshoot based on WIME or other, similar existing work?
Fuck Slashdot
Office 200? Wow, M$ has been around a lot longer than I thought!
Alcohol and Calculus don't mix. Don't drink and derive.
You know which post.
Will they have a red screen of death, or blue?
--
They said FUD was bad, so I started spreading DUF.
"Mind, as manifested by the capacity to make choices, is to some extent present in every electron." -Freeman Dyson
how is microsoft going to react to this?
could they sue based on the fact its "BASED" on win98?
I guess
Both Windows 98 and Office 2000 are obsolete
"With Microsoft, you get Windows. With Linux, you get the full house" - unknown
this is the most ambitious copyright infringement scheme ever to come out of eastern asia, and that's saying something!
(and by the way, if there were ever a perfect time to use the bill-gates-as-borg icon, it's now.)
go get it
New Scientist is also running a story about this.
office 200?
And thats a darn good thing, cause Microsoft is full of commies.
I go to college that makes me so cool
I live in the dorm and show off by the pool
And even more importantly, will they modify that funny Windows flag screensaver so that it's a nice shade of commie red?
Will it still bluescreen, or will they change that as well?
first
And if you thought Microsoft was anti-competitive...
http://www.maximum-cars.com - My little hobbie.
honestly, why? Considering the amount of piracy in China, why develop a windows clone when they can just buy a copy for $2?
Do you even lift?
These aren't the 'roids you're looking for.
People here worry about the 'alleged' NSA key's within the MSFT registry. I can only imagine what the Chinese will look to do.
-k
If it supports DirectX 8.1a well I might get a copy.
Veteran, Bermuda Triangle Expeditionary Force, 1992-1951
it's amazing how much effort is being reduplicated in the OS world. they should put their efforts into WINE or just go with running openoffice on linux.
to make a truly API compatible clone of windows that is even semi-stable is an enormous amount of work. and of course future versions of ms office will doubtless use new features of future versions of win that will lead to a never-ending catch up game.
imagine on the other hand, if they put all this effort into openoffice itself. now that would be great.
... China has 13 electrical engineers working on making a VCR. The Chinese are sick and tired of buying Japanese brand VCR's and will soon have a working prototype.
Why are they bothering with Windows 98? Just think, after they get Qihang 98 working, they can work on Windows Golden Dragon aka Windows ME
Live web cams
The real question is: Who do you trust more, the chinese government or microsoft?
...curiouser and curiouser.
You know they just wanna play BattleZone legally. *nod*
Everything in the Universe sucks: It's the law!
So they're going to make a crappy knock off of a crappy OS? I thought they would have more ambition than that.
(hope it's in English)
If anyone out there has had a hard time accepting that communism is a flawed, backward economic model, now you have proof...
with full compatibility with Office 200 and Word
Gotta watch closely those Chinese knockoffs with their names just *SLIGHTLY* off.
Human nature is the same everywhere; the modes only are different. -- Earl of Chesterfield
I don't know about the rest of the people commenting here, but I think that, if this is true, it's absolutely fantastic. Being a computer technician myself (who is devoted to Win2k when it comes to M$ operating systems), I can't say enough for the power of Windows 98 on low-end client workstations. As the Register article says, give it some halfway-decent memory management and you've got yourself a damn good OS.
I'm interested to see the specifics on this. Will it be free? Will it be horrifyingly illegal? Did they set this seemingly unmeetable goal because a hacker stole Microsoft source code during one of the much-publicized raids on the Super-Secret Code Vaults buried hundreds of miles below the surface of Redmond?
The main reason this interested me so much was what, I believe Bill Gates said about Windows in some interview that I'm too lazy to go look up... Windows isn't about the OS itself, it's about the API... give him the API spec, a handful of programmers and a year and he could recreate it in all it's glory, basically. Looks like someone is actually trying.
"Equivalent functionality" --
A minimalist view would be to merely assemble, say, a general-purpose operating system distribution based on anything free, and then make sure there's a suite of office software (e.g. StarOffice) on it with suitable import and export filters for compatibility with what's coming out from Redmond.
If they're concerned about the dominance of MS Office, then the above makes far more sense than the far more ambitious task of re-implementing Win9X to the point of software (application-level, not just data import/export) compatibility w/ the very product that's bothering them.
Only the dead have seen the end of war.
OFFICE 200 ROX UR OX
- about me
Why not just use that, I believe it even runce latest office.
US-UK-Israel: The real Axis of Evil
Considering the rather cavalier Chinese attitude towards intellecual property, it wouldn't surprise me to find that this 'workalike' actually contains plenty of Microsoft code in one form or another. Alternatively they could be using Linux + Wine with extensions and having no plans of complying with the GPL. Or both.
/. thinks my own karma is 'excellent', I should win the lottery tomorrow...
But even if no I.P. violations are happing at all this is still kind of a 'good for the goose, good for the gander' situation eh? The thought of China 'embracing and extending' Windows?
The really funny thing about this is that Micrsoft has been making nicey-nice with the Peoples Republic lately because all those billions of people ready to buy computers look like such a wonderful market. And besides they were hoping to get China to crack down on all the mainland pirating operations and figured you attract more flies with honey, etc. Either way it tickles me that China has been getting ready to stab Bill Gates in the back all along.
Maybe there really is something to that karmic balance stuff after all. Now, considering that
Jack William Bell
- -
Are you an SF Fan? Are you a Tru-Fan?
People's Chopstick Interface
Thats the big question! A GPL WinClone and OfficeClone woudl be cool.
Buffalo buffalo Buffalo buffalo buffalo buffalo Buffalo buffalo! http://goo.gl/J9bkO
"1.0 version supposedly already released " Obviously it's not going to be a good clone, if it's already out of Beta -- how can it be a good clone if it's worthy of a 1.0? I've never seen Windows software like that!
My other sig is funny!
This thread's parent raises an interesting question of who you trust more.
My immediate first impression was that the Chinese government is undertaking the creation of a new operating system in order to exert more direct control over the spread of information. They already have quite a track record in that department...
http://websolr.com — fast, hassle-free search, powered by Apache Solr
This was very informative. I learned a lot about Wine and Debian.
microsoft.CLIT
Test of kanji posts to see if slashcode supports UNICODE
Because China have joined the WTO thats why, they will probably be forced in someway in the future to atleast try and curtail piracy or face penalties of some kind.
I would guess they want to use this window of opertunity to carry on using pirated Windows but have something ready for when copyright rules become tighter. Seems like a good plan if that is indeed the plan.
Tomorrows headlines will read.....
M$ claims IP rights over Chinese Win clone.
They should hire Linus Torvalds; his company isn't doing so well lately, and I hear he's got a similar project he's been working on...
Looks like Linux didn't do the job afterall :) Even China is turning back to Windows.
".. with full compatibility with Office 200 and Word" .. I realize it was a typo in the topic - but it reminds me of all those knockoff burned SVCD's where half the text is misspelled, or is written in Engrish. What's next - Windows 89?
Someone you trust is one of us.
That ripping sound you hear is the fabric of space time tearing itself apart. :)
"Mind, as manifested by the capacity to make choices, is to some extent present in every electron." -Freeman Dyson
I read it in, of all places, a glamour magazine in a physician's office (hey, it was a choice between that and back issues of Highlights - a children's reader). I remember that vaguely the quote was in answer to the question, "What is your largest fear?" Gates replied appoximately, "That someone will take Windows and go to China or India where programmers are cheap and hire them for a year to clone it."
Does anyone remember from where this quote was sourced? The date was sometime between 1995 and 1997.
What the WINE project proves, unfortunately, is what many open-source projects prove: open source doesn't move as fast as things developed by large, focused groups of people working towards a very ambitious date.
;-)
Besides, there's nothing like a hard deadline set forth by a communist nation known for killing its own citizens to get the blood pumping and the fingers typing.
First, BRAVO!
Since this appears to be evolving, WE may have a chance to influence the specs, instead of suggesting alternatives (I am sure they have been considered and rejacted - look at how many millions are familiar with the user interface of Win98 and need retraining if they go with something like Linux).
Feel free to add to it folks, this may be a once in a lifetime chance.
Version 1.0 (no particular order)
0)No "free now, but we want to control the market and make you pay for it later" stuff (ever).
1) Windows 98 look-alike to run "almost all" the applications Win98 runs. This should include all the office productivity applications.
1A) 98lite (http://www.litepc.com/index.html) functionality with the 98micro features. (Take away the junk and fluff from Win98). (Hey, I am only a happy customer).
2. No multimedia capabilities.
3. Open source (this is slashdot, after all) under some reasonable license.
4. Dial up network support.
5. Use the same driver software for hardware. (Goes without saying.)
6. Prefer compatibility for speed if there is a tradeoff. (Obvious.)
----
Version 1+ some day.
A. Multimedia support (non-proprietary stuff only).
B. Full networking support (similar to Win2K).
----
-srr
Why re-invent Win98, when they could contribute to Wine?
Right now, the single biggest thing Wine lacks is Out Of Process COM - that makes many Windows programs fall over and die under Wine.
But with the kind of programmer resources China could throw at the problem, they could probably add OOP COM to Wine in short order.
After all, there's nothing like having a billion-node Beowulf cluster of programmers....
www.eFax.com are spammers
Let me repeat: China is not cloning Win98. All y'all villagers can put those torches and pitchforks away. 'Taint nuthin to see here.
Here's what The People's Daily article had to say (in slightly mangled English):
Now, what is RedFlag, you ask? It appears to be a Chinese distro of Linux. Yup. And CS&S? That's the China National Computer Software and Technology Service Corporation. Rght here. And *who* did they enter into a big agreement with at the end of last year? That'd be Sun, to license StarSuite, as mentioned in this release.
So to sum up:
China: Running StarSuite under Linux.
Register: Jumping the gun.... again.
Slashdot readers: Hates Microsoft.
Whew. Looks like everything's back to normal around here. =)
Chindows!
"Slashdot readers: hate Microsoft"
Now if you'll excuse me, the Preview button wants to sit me down and have a long chat....
Will they clone the security holes as well?
http://www.codingstyle.com/
It suggests that it is Linux and open source and wine...
Only 'flamers' flame!
It's from the "they-don't-like-software-assurance-either" dept.
People in glass houses...
Slashdot certainly seems to have an overabundance of articles from the Register recently.
I think most people are misunderstanding what this is. It is very much like Lindows....Just another Linux distro...
Yang = aflutter
Fan = jib or foresail
Thus, Yangfan = driving sail
Qi = start
Hang = a route, a sail
Thus, QiHang = sailing, or start sailing
The article said both mean 'set sail'...well, figuratively they are.
Complete with Latin spell check and roman numeral support in Excel, I suppose...
remember the wisdom of Mahatma Gandhi: If enough peasants die horribly, someone will probably notice
If they will leave the NSA key in there that Bush/Ashcroft use to spy on everybody with
98 is scheduled to be obsoleted within a year or two IIRC. It's well known (Think Wine)..
;)
:p
Plus, the US gubment wants to get warmer with China.
Though we all suspect Microsoft has its own team of black ops forces, I'm betting that China could take them out.
What'll be cool is if they open source it
I got back from Taiwan more than two years ago and can recall reading in the English paper there (which always reports things later than the Chinese papers) that the communist gov't wanted Linux to the OS for Chinese gov't use because they wouldn't be beholden to foreign software companies. And that was at least a year before I came back (total of at least 3 years ago, probably 4).
I haven't looked at the Chinese character handling in Linux for a while, but at the time it was atrocious. (of course Windows wasn't a whole lot better until Windows 2000 came out)
I guess the communists don't have too much problem with foreign alphabets (the config files and the Command line is probably going to have to stay in western character set I would guess)
Listen, China is trying it's hardest to come into the modern age. Let's not insult them by saying they're still in the 200's rather than the 2000's when you say they're going to support Office 200, capice?
To make a pun demonstrates the highest understanding of a language
Compatible with what? Features like rune checking and search and engrave?
Just a few weeks ago, Microsoft announced that they are putting $750M into the tech sector in China. I wonder how they are feeling about that decision now? Whether it's a re-implementation of Windows, or a Linux solution (as it seems to be), the bottom line is that this is a hard slap in the face for Microsoft. If the Chinese are willing to do this after Microsoft gives them $750M, what are they going to do when they read the licensing agreements on anything they get from M$?
MS has backdoors in Windows for NSA.
//Mr Lee at 90210 Golden Dragon St//C
:)
GNU/Linux and *BSD AFA*I*K (I've never checked myself) have no backdoors.
Maybe China could throw resources at Wine and make a Win98 compatible OS. BUt they aren't trying to do that! If they wanted that they'd call up Walmart and order a couple frieghters full of PCs loaded with Lindows and they'd be done.
Wine is already good enough for basic WIndows things.. Open Office is already good enough for standard office things. And they are Free.
Opps. Read that last sentence again. There is the whole problem! Free as in Freedom. Darn those guys like RMS at the FSF! China isn't trying to make a win98 clone to save money (just so they can run pay for MS Office 200??)!!!
They want backdoors in everybody's computer. If you could were running WIne (LGPL) and could get access to OpenBSD ISOs and run that as your underlying OS instead of whatever China preloaded the only way they'd be able to check your computer is if they came to your house and physically stole it. Its still quite a bit harder to check a confencated OpenBSD machine into than to simply be able to browse to
and make sure he isn't looking at any dirty pictures or reading the anarcist's cookbook.
Sometimes that little GNU just makes me smile
Writing operating system is a national event!
I hardly think the Chinese goverment even acknowledges the US legal system and just disregards it as capitalistic "justice" for the rich, easy punishment for the poor. (Sad thing is they are prolly right with this, too...) :(
Uh. The opinion of freaking China as to whether the US court systems are, comparatively speaking, just and fair.
We'll go with the ol' grain of salt on this one.
All employees must wash hands before seeking equitable relief.
Does anyone here find this to be a little scary?
WTF???
"Hacked by Chinese"
If you were able to say to users "Yeah, you could upgrade to WinXP to fix all of those horrible bugs or you could download this nifty free software package and do the same thing to your Win98, NT, 2k installations and not have to comply with objectionable licensing terms, ever-increasing licensing fees and the probability that you're going to have to buy new hardware anyways" how many people would do this.
I can tell you that for the company I used to work for until Monday, a large dot.com in the Seattle area named after a prominent South American river, there was little or no enthusiasm among the Wintel techies or the finance people for replacing our Wintel hardware running Win2k and NT or for paying the license fees for XP. Given business conditions today I really don't think that we were unique in this respect.
cheap labor conservatives - they want to keep you hungry enough to be thankful for minimum wage.
wow - window 98 functionalities?? does that mean that it will crash every other hours? :-)
It does seems strange that they want to develop something that could cost millions or billions when they can buy off the shelves for a lot less
Um, US Courts have no jurisdiction over China. It's a foreign country.
Yes, that's the obvious answer, and yes, the "the US is just big and mean and stupid and thinks it rules the world" opinions expressed in other responses are terribly fashionable. But no, it's not correct, and no, nobody's stupid enough to think that we're going to send the federal marshals to Shanghai.
You can sue foreign governments in United States courts. A cursory search reveals, for example, this case from a few months ago: Stethem v. Islamic Republic of Iran, 201 F.Supp. 2d 78 (D.D.C., 2002).
Put very simply, a party (say, Microsoft, or in the above case a U.S. citizen killed as a result of actions of the defendant nation) can get a judgment, or a court order, against a foreign country.
If it's a monetary judgment, it can be collected from whatever assets the country has in the United States - bank accounts, foreign currency reserves, real estate, whatever. If it's a court order, then, say, Microsoft could get an injunction forbidding the Chinese government (or whatever state-owned enterprise) from distributing "Windows PRC" within the United States.
This happens all the time. It's really not that exciting. Suing China, of course, would be a little pointless - China's not likely to try to undertake any action within the jurisdiction of the US courts - namely, within the United States.
All employees must wash hands before seeking equitable relief.
What does it mean when this comment is the most insightful post on the page? Oh yeah, it means I love sex with dogs.
"...full compatibility with Office 200..."
I know that China is a bit behind the times, or are they going for the whole retro thing?
"We shall show mercy, but we shall not ask for it" -- Winston Churchill
Windows PC clone.
--
"Outlook not so good." That magic 8-ball knows everything! I'll ask about Exchange Server next.
Given the huge population of China and potential market, Microsoft's chance of continuing the same level of growth just got worse. Perhaps that's why microsoft is pushing into the service world. If they don't, they won't be able to continue the same level of growth over the next few years and will no longer be the darling of the stock market.
Good thought. Only that for new installations, M$ will still be making money. But that would be the lesser evil than a forced upgrade.
Western efforts such to emulate windows such as wine and commercial products from companies such as Trumpet have not been very successful. Wine has been in Alpha for a long time and most companies have given up. Could China succeed where the west has failed?
Winrows Ninetyreight.
If you use it, you'll be hungry again in 30 minutes.
Instead of a mouse, will it use chopsticks?
Could make interactive porno more interesting, I suppose.
Table-ized A.I.
It's quite strange that they set out to build a full-functional OS just to run Office 2000 and Word on it. Anyone with the least common sense would prefer to go Top-Down , i.e. , write its own Word Processor before go to OS, not to mention there are many OS available.
KOS-MOS
I guess they are just sick of the CIA spying on them, so maybe they want to control the source code of their goverment's computers by themselfes.
Did you remember last years story about a Boing plane for China's President turning out als completely bugged? That was not only stupid because of diplomacy (only months after a collision between an US spyplane and a chinese fighter jet) but will also lead to exclusion of american firms from providing "strategic" infrastructure, due to espionage concerns and national securety (imagine trojan horses shutting down chinas infrastructure in case of an conflict with the US, remember Korea).
Concerning the type of Operating System: One of the companies mentioned in a linked article is Red Flagg,
they referred to their OS als something like W95.(the author or the translator possibly didn't know Red Flagg Linux). Enhanced by 1 year development they may consider it as something like W98.
As a sovereign state, they can always consider the GPL als irrelevant (and also Microsoft's treaties), because (inter)national law always overrueles (civil) contract law. So they may not give changed code back to the community, because/if it is not requriered by chinese law, but code that "left" chinese jurisdicton should be GPL'd again (IANAL).
now instead of a blue sky, you'll see a red sky.
13 year old white supremacists are shitty web designers.
office 200 runs great on my sorny.
Karma: Bad (mostly affected by moderation done to your comments)...Now i know why.
ChinChanChonChunkingKongChingChangChongChengChung
No wonder it doesn't work.
china is the one of the worst infringing countries in the world on copyright stuff (ie music/video/software pirating)...
so when they say clone are they refering to the button in nero?
And besides they were hoping to get China to crack down on all the mainland pirating operations and figured you attract more flies with honey, etc. Either way it tickles me that China has been getting ready to stab Bill Gates in the back all along.
I'd like to expand on that. A popular Chinese business mentality is "get the best deal out of the guy before he can get the best one out of you". It is this mentality that has driven the fast-paced financial world of Hong Kong and Shanghai. Those who can't keep up with the tricks and cunning bartering techniques of Chinese businesspeople and merchants get financially burned in the Chinese markets. "Foreigners" investing in the China that do not know business etiquette also get burned. For example, when Microsoft brought legal action against 3 of the most respected and prosperous computer companies in China (one of them being Legend), public outrage ensued. The public was also angered at Microsoft's pricing policy of setting a standard price for their software worldwide rather than setting the cost according to the local average income of the country which it was selling its products in. Microsoft, in addition to its ruthless pricing policies, happened to be based in Redmond. Seeing Microsoft's "reign of terror" in their computer and software industry, and knowing Microsoft's outsider origins, the Chinese were more than eager to despise Microsoft. They view the corporate juggernaut as a foreign oppressor attempting to humiliate and exploit their population for its "high potential of profits", mirroring the situation of the Opium Wars. For reasons which are rooted in its 5,000 year-old past, many Chinese hate being humiliated by non-Chinese more than being humiliated by their own. The Chinese belief of "keeping one's face" (preventing humiliation of one's pride or paying retribution to the humiliator) combined with MS's business tactics further worsened it's reputation in China. As a result, most Chinese wouldn't care for potential legal problems that may be involved in the creation of their MS-Software-compatible OS, even as their country tries to enter the WTO.
If Cyborg Bill doesn't move fast enough, he'll get burned by a kind of Boxer Rebellion of the digital age--China's push against a foreign company's domination of it's software market utilizing (legal) cost-free alternatives. (A la RedFlagLinuix and development of an MS-Software-compatible OS).
An example of this would be Paint Shop Pro and WINE don't run it.
WINE developers haven't concentrated on the specific set of win32 calls used by Jasc Software's Paint Shop Pro image editor because what does PSP do that GIMP doesn't?
Will I retire or break 10K?
Actually I've been following Wine for a while, and it seems like the biggest thing holding them back was that (until recently) they didn't do any regression testing.
They'd fix one thing only to break like five or ten others.
Interestingly, now that they're moving forward with an exhaustive testing regime, they've started filling in the remaining pieces pretty fast.
And, indeed, most Open Source projects don't do much in the way of testing...
DNA just wants to be free...
There is a reason people don't develop new all-purpose operating systems from scratch today. It's an extraordinarily expensive and time consuming undertaking. We're talking about 10 years of development for talented, well organized groups, with constant feedback, review, testing, and some degree of industry support.
There's no way China developed this from scratch, this fast, with their resources, unless it supports only a tiny insignificant fraction of Microsoft Windows functionality. Cloning Windows 98 of all things doesn't make sense either. Windows 2000 is more stable, extensible, powerful.
It's either Linux + WINE + custom hacks, or they probably got their hands on Windows 98 source code and did some global search and replaces.
Will it have all the security holes of the original? Or will updates be issued as "Godless Commie Pack 2"?
Let's play Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse. I'll be Pestilence.
Damn, they're gonna be a bit behind if they're gonna make it compatible with Office 200. I mean, what, does it save files on clay tablets, or have they upgraded to lambskin parchment yet?
"Destroy science and religion. Science would re-emerge exactly the same; but not religion." - Penn Jillette, paraphrased
I hear their spell-checker auto-corrects "Republic of China" to "Province of Taiwan".
pr0n - keeping monitor glass spotless since 1981.
Think about this:
Microsoft plans Palladium, essentially hardware-locking our boxes and software-locking the code that runs on it. Capitalist company exerting tight control over consumers.
Chinese government has invested in Linux and open source - even if they won't embrace the GPL. If they keep to standard hardware, then we'll be assured of a cheap source of Linux boxen. Communist government producing "free" (as in freedom) boxen, leaving control in the hands of consumers.
Even if their distro is rife with spyware (who thinks it isn't?) you can simply bleem the box and start fresh.
It would be ironic, no?
First you read the original CD, the you write to a second...lol...
If you are a country that doesn't respect human rights, as China has demonstrated for decades, and you have nuclear weapons to boot, would you be afraid of infringing on some patents or stealing some software?? Microsoft is a giant, but compared to China, they're a speck of dirt.
I predict the Chinese release their "1.0" version right after they buy a copy of Lindows and scrawl some Chinese characters on it.
Well, actually it wouldn't be the first time. (See Boxer Rebellion.)
That's scarry shit for Americans like myself living in China because the local "boxing clubs" wiped out the foreigners big time and it wasn't all that long ago.
I've got a plot for a video game about the Boxer Rebellion where this one foriegn dude puts up resistance, but if you read the facts it was total slaughter, hence the US troops.
Let's pray that's all ancient history. Unfortunately, I feel things are getting a little tense on the streets with the US and Japanese financial troubles. When the money runs dry people tend to get ugly and the xenophobia runs high. At least that's what I recall from living in SoCal in the early 80s.
WINE is hardly a replacement for Windows. It is very useful for Linux enthusiasts, but it is very slow and unstable to use as a primary OS.
Likewise, Windows 9x is hardly a replacement for Windows. It is very useful for DOS enthusiasts, but it is very slow and unstable to use as a primary OS.
Yet another reason why Microsoft killed the 9x series: Microsoft didn't want to sell a product that was at the same quality level as WINE. Smart move.
Will I retire or break 10K?
God knows there aren't innocents on death row in the US, nor people being detained without indictment or rights to an attorney or for something they simply might do, or for belonging to the wrong group in the US, or unequal justice meted out to the disenfranchised and absolution for the powerful, or people put into prison for 24 years for being in the same car as someone who was carrying drugs while the head of state got a pass for drunk driving and god know what else ... oh, wait a minute, never mind.
Uh...Windows 98? Of all things? Probably one of the buggiest versions of Windows known to man? Hm. Well, it's probably cheap, I suppose, considering the amount of piracy that goes on over there.
Note to M1-ers: a curt but otherwise insightful message is not "Flamebait" or "Troll".
Well, Win98 is the favorite of some Windows using friends of mine... so they have the right idea there. Minus the DOS instability (which is a big leap, I know), its fairly decent feature wise. I guess, switching back from KDE 3.0 it would seem a little feature deficient, but anyway...
I'm sure this closed source Chinese OS will fit in closely with their desire to control the internet? Ie, contain convenient spy abilities and maybe special Great Firewall of China Modules. how does Red Flag linux feel?
Maybe they decided that they couldn't create a linux distro with closed source Opression kernel modules, they'd rather ignore Microsoft's lawyers than have the FSF breathing down their necks!!
--aren't the chinese programmers also developing their own (government I assume) approved linux version? Why don't they just stick with that instead of copying windows?
What is the point of duplicating an operating system? More precisely, what is the point of producing an OS solely for the purpose of supporting another OS' exposed programming API? The hurdles facing the Chinese operating system markets are two fold. First, there is the support to the Chinese national characters, which consist of BIG5 (for traditional Chinese, applicable to Taiwan and Hong Kong) and GB (for simplified Chinese, applicable to mainland China). Windows 98 has very bad support of either encoding methods since it has no internal support for Unicode characters and therefore must rely on double byte character encoding. What that means is that the win98 subset of win32 API has no intrinsic support of the Chinese language which simultaneously supports other Unicode languages. Or more precisely, the support for both traditional and simplified Chinese requires some really sophisticated character recognition algorithms. That speaks nothing of the other languages which a generalized OS such as Linux and Windows NT/2000/XP should conceptually support. Even if the complex problem of language support is ironed out, it says nothing to the sophisticated use of fonts in the Chinese language including word processing (yes, word processing requires very sophisticated manipulation of fonts), typesetting, and inter-OS communications requisite in a modern working environment. Instead of concentrating on creating another OS, China should focus its academic attention on augmenting the Chinese support of existing Linux variants. Which currently sucks imo compared to existing standards on WinXP and MacOS.
I don't know about the rest of the people commenting here, but I think that, if this is true, it's absolutely fantastic. Being a computer technician myself (who is devoted to Win2k when it comes to M$ operating systems), I can't say enough for the power of Windows 98 on low-end client workstations. As the Register article says, give it some halfway-decent memory management and you've got yourself a damn good OS.
You are ABSOLUTELY CORRECT!
(If by "Windows 98" you mean "BeOS.")
"And like that
so glad they are in the WTO now ... we really thought that one through.
members are seeing something, your seeing an ad
*cough*
the wording on the article on People's Daily makes me think this is a Linux distribution with improved & integrated Wine capibilities.
This reminds me of the way the Soviets copied the B-29 in WWII and immediately after. A documentary was just on the History Channel about this. During the war the Soviets seized some damaged B-29's that landed in Vladivostok (the Soviets were officially neutral in the Pacific war and didn't want to piss off Japan and have a two front war on their hands, so they kept this sort of relationship at arms length and the Allies understood.) Stalin ordered that the bombers be exactly copied. They were--exactly, down to damage patches on one of the bombers that was disassembled. The result was that the Soviet aircraft industry was catapulted from being far behind the West to being on roughly even terms
Now China wants an exact copy of Win98. One can't help but think that they have some of the Windows source or API that they're working off of. Probably wouldn't be hard for a halfway decent intelligence service to obtain it, given the number of very skilled Chinese nationals working in the industry. Will these efforts catapult the Chinese software industy to being on par with the West? Is an effort to duplicate Win98 really the way to go about this?
It seems that totalitarian states are much better at copying stuff than innovating. I guess it's less risky to make an exact copy of something you know that works than innovating to make something better and risking failure (and the possible dire consequences that entails.)
Just thought this perspective might be interesting, giving what I've been watching on TV tonight
If they're already boasting Office 200 compatibility, they've progressed more than a version a year (which is all MS is able to do), so they'll reach Office 1492, Office 1776, and even the coveted Office 1969 fairly quickly.
Imagine for a second that they strike it big with the OS..... Will it be legal to pirate the OS in the States?
--=.=-- www.cyber2000.qc.ca
Come on, how are they going to control spread of the source developed by 18 universities? It's far more likely that they just don't want billions of dollars to flow out of the country and into the hands of Microsoft. Or make warez an offical policy. I bet students will mostly do the work for free and anyway they'll start on top of Linux and don't have to pay developers even a fraction of US salaries. It's a good idea for any country, even US. I doubt that the number of jobs Microsoft creates justifies all the cash they pocket away.
Rich
Office 200? Office 200. Now we know why Rome fell.
While the newly started two programs would make updates on this basis to improve the software to a level of Win98 and compatible with Office2000 and Word.
Your post: China: Running StarSuite under Linux
The article didn't say they were runnign StarSuite. I'd have thought the article was talkign about China makign something like Crossover Office. It doesn't matter what kernel, APIs, and windowing system it uses. If it runs MS Office, for many people, its a Windows clone (it obviously has many of the same APIs).
So yes. Something to see here.
If they'd managed that, we probably wouldn't be here having this discussion.
If MS made decent quality software, Linux would be a mere curiosity. The growing enthusiasm for Open Source is based on millions of people seeing hundreds of millions of BSODs.
Tech Public Policy stuff
Everything is compatible with Win98.
What they want is something that is out-of-the-box compatible with all Windows programs, but yet not have to pay microsoft for each company.
Personally, I think its a great idea.
If you refuse to admit (as I do) that software is a patentable thing, then this idea was bound to happen.
That's why software patents are a bad idea. They create scarcity where it was never intended to create scarcity.
Me play Chinese.
Me play joke.
Me create a new OS based off of Windows 98 and Microsoft can't do anything because they have no jurisdiction in our country and we're not scared because we have nuclear, chemical, and biological weapons and can destroy Seattle in a second.
.smell my feet.
Me play Chinese,
Me play joke,
Me create an OS based off of Windows 98 and Microsoft can do nothing about it because they have no jurisdiction in our country and we have nuclear, chemical, and biological weapons and can destroy their headquarters in a second.
.smell my feet.
I think this post should be at +10 Insightfull. And by the way, it also obsoletes most of the other posts here. If China mandated the adoption of Linux, well, that may put linux user at an advantage and in some years, there'll be more Linuxes arround the world than Windows boxes.
:-)"
I 'd love to see some "Man, your word processor is really crappy. Can't it read OpenOffice 3 files? (Openoffice 3.0 implementing some kind of GPLed decoder which can only have a single implementation
unfinished: (adj.)
If I ran China, I'd have spies steal some of the Win98 code from someone who had liscenced it, like a U.S. university or something. I mean heck - if you're not afraid to commit espionage to gain nuclear secrets -- stealing a copy of some source code doesn't sound like such a hard thing for a spy to do.
Unix and Unix like OS have had protected memory for yonks, NT has it for years (and now W2K), Apple has moved to this more stable design by embracing BSD, so what do the Chinese do?
Choose to copy one of the most unstable OS' that the World has ever been burdened with!?!?
I think there is a *MUCH* simpler solution. Embrace a free Unix with an excellent stability and hardware support history (FreeBSD) and then standardize on something like OpenOffice.
Any huge efforts like recreating a crap OS could have been put into improving OpenOffice and perhaps writing some decent groupware.
Crazy crazy stuff.
War crimes, torture, lies, illegal spying... Would someone give Bush a blowjob, already, so he can be impeached?
Funny, when China first attacks the US in the economy wars of the 21st century, they will be killing us with our own guns.
We will finally kill each other, through the Chinese.
note: Mudge says this all the time.
There is a possibility that Chinese government got the full source or something close to it, in some way. They have such practices in the past and ready to pay lot of money to the insiders. With some changes they will release it as a clone. We should also consider this possibility. Otherwise, if it is not based on Linux, I do not believe one year is enough to produce such a chaotic system like Windows.
Beijing municipal government bought software equivalent to Win 95 from Chinese companies such as CS&S and RedFlag. (Read Linux) While the newly started two programs would make updates on this basis to improve the software to a level of Win98 and compatible with Office2000 and Word. (Read Linux)
Get a free ipod.
Wouldn't it be just easier to install Linux/Wine/OpenOffice?
The difference being you can change things politically here whereas in China, you will get locked up or worse.
"windows 200" Comes with an abacus in place of calc.exe
Anyone remember those breakins into Microsoft's development network a while back, where source code was allegedly compromised? Hmmmm....
Of course any such effort will be based on Linux. No company is going to start from scratch when Linux/Wine/OpenOffice already provides most of their requirements of 'compatability with Office'.
Microsoft will not need to sue anyone. What is more likely is that any government-sponsored package based on open source software will end-up breaking the GPL.
Will the US government, through the WTO, oblige China to respect the GPL? Imagine the lobbying... this is going to be hilarious.
My blog
Duff (2): 1. Decaying leaves and branches covering a forest floor. 2. Fine coal; slack.
Duff (3): Slang The buttocks.
(disclosure: i am a citizen of the united states of america.)
"The difference being you can change things politically here whereas in China, you will get locked up or worse."
wrong; politics is as closed to the common people in the usa as anywhere. the two traditional political parties control votes by means of propaganda and marketing techniques; anyone not affiliated with them is marginalized as an "idealist" or a "crackpot" by means of smear campaigns.
sadly, this sort of tactic is particularly effective in the USA, where people don't want to think for themselves, don't accept responsibility for their condition, and just want everything handed to them on a platter, like so many obedient sheep. all you have to do is turn on the television; they'll tell you what to think.
i put it to you that those who feel that it's still possible to effect political change in the USA from within the confines of the existing system are either naive or uninformed.
--
"the majority of people alive today would rather drag boulders across the face of the earth than think." - professor phillips
How do you draw geometric shapes in the Gimp?
To draw simple geometric shapes in GIMP: Pick a brush, select the area you want to draw (using the rectangular, elliptical, or bezier select tool) and then Edit > Stroke.
To draw complicated geometric shapes, use the included Gfig plug-in.
Will I retire or break 10K?
A Windows 98 'workalike'? Windows 98 doesn't really 'work' per say, so to workalike seems to be a apardox...
But Seriously, why name a 9x system as a goal rather than an NT based one as a goal, 9x's core is very flawed, and since they would be starting from scratch anyway...
XML is like violence. If it doesn't solve the problem, use more.
Red Flag is a Chinese Linux distro and something MSOffice compatible within a year doesn't leave many options other than Open/Star Office.
Further googling on CS&S finds it's the major Chinese software company, with a lot of products, including Linux and Unix, but tellingly this on Sun's site: "Sun signed agreements with CS&S Network Technology Co., Ltd., Red Flag Software Co., Ltd. and Beijing Co-Create Open Source Software Co., Ltd. (Co-Soft). Under the terms of the agreements, these companies agreed to license and bundle StarSuite software as part of their Linux operating platform, which they OEM to PC vendors and also sell through retail and other channels."
Thus "Chinese Win 98" = Star Office on Red Flag Linux.
And I submitted all this yesterday. Slashdot, thy name is futility.
I think you are mistaking WINE with the core of a OS.
Define "core of an OS".
Wine just implements the win32 calls that win32 programs uses on top on... linux!
Windows 9x just implements the win32 calls that win32 programs uses on top on... dos!
Will I retire or break 10K?
I thought China is already running Win98 100% pirated, so why would they write a clone of Win98. That's some logic right there.
Win98 is not one of the most stable Windoze out there, probably easiest to hack out but I wouldn't spend a dime of my time on legacy OSes.
By the time China comes out with some working Win98 clone, they will knock their heads so hard that the rest of the world are in 64bit land. Who's gonna develop software for China's Win98?? I guess when they put a gun to your head you better do it, that's Mao's way right!!
The fact that there are serious problems
with abuses of power, corruption and imperfections in both China and the US is
banal to the point of "who cares". Overall civil rights are alot better in the US but China is NOT
the appropriate yardstick to measure the US by.
The "First World" (ie. OECD) is. By that measure,
compared against its affluent, democratic peers,
is where the US falls short. What's more, it has been a "democracy" longer than any nation, and still has not gotten its act together.
It is by coff... er, will, alone I set my mind in motion...
Advert:
[Camera pans Red Army, millions of smiling faces, people waving flags and their little red books:]
Voiceover:
People of the Great Republic of China, take pride in your arms! Remember the Unification of China and be proud of powerful leaders bringing you Office 200! Office 200, with full American Pig-dog Ally Windows compatibility, has features you will love!
[Video boxes spinning in:]
Voiceover:
Word! Office 200 gives you keyboard input power!
Excel! Office 200 helps you keep track of labor costs with a convenient grid!
PowerPoint! Support your leaders with slide shows!
Access! The only Access you should have is the one your leaders know about!
Office 200 allows you to publish acceptable literature and happy documents! Special powers include detection of dissidence to protect you from danger!
[Flag of China fade-in:]
Office 200 is a Great Wall to preserve your data against barbarian hordes! Make your ancestors happy! Get Office 200 today, for great justice!
When that intrusion on the code server occurred, and "no useful code was appropriated", where did the code go? And what was it for?
The story states, "the Beijing municipal government bought software equivalent to Win 95 from Chinese companies such as CS&S and RedFlag."
... now, why would China develop a completely new OS called China Windows 98 ... more likely they're just going to work at getting RedFlag to be completely compatible with MS Win98.
RedFlag is China's version of Linux
Just the way I read it.
Most western retailers wanting to escape their currently oversaturated markets are looking to the untapped potential of China. It is not surprising that the chinese went and got there first, on account of them already being there and wishing to capitalise on their own population rather than hand it to the west on a silver platter. Our companies want to sell in China but don't want the Chinese to have their own brands. I don't expect Microsoft to play fair, whether china98 is a cleanroom implementation or not. For evidence, just look at the FUD spread about our much beloved non-MS OS. So long as China plays fair and doesn't rip off MS, they will have the ethical high ground and probably the support of most free software advocates also. Its not much, but is better than nothing.
I'm damm sure you must reboot to take this
change into account.
Yeah, in China they just have to
declare you an "enemy of the state"
and then you have no rights.
They can lock you up indefinitely
with no trial and without even
making any specific charges.
Anybody got half a clue as to what might be going on?
Need a Linux consultant in New Orleans?
There are over a billion people in China. If only 10% of them have computers with Windows, that's $30,000,000,000.00 to Microsoft (at $100.00 per copy). China has a reputation for wanting to hold onto its money. They have strict laws governing the import of foreign goods.
Ah, now we see what the 40 billion dollar hedge was really for. They will either a) buy the government of china or b) raise an army to blow china to peices. Bill will teach those yellow bastards a lesson!
Why are they re-writing only the OS? It sounds like they still want to run ms office. Are they going to buy this? Probably not. So if they are going to run stolen office packets, why do they bother about the OS?
well put... I missed the details you tracked but still gleaned the impression (from the time scale) that this was Linux + StarOffice + (maybe Wine).
I also submitted this story yesterday, but I think I used the wrong font.
-pyrrho
By the time someone acquires that much money, they simply don't think as a consumer anymore. Bill gates isn't thinking about many solid gold Ferraris his billions can by. No, by that time, money takes on a different meaning: a means to shape the world. Using his software monopoly and massive amounts of cash, Bill is obviously intent on making his mark on the world.
Find and share links to celebrity profiles on MySpace! http://www.myspacecelebrities.com
It's an extraordinarily expensive and time consuming undertaking. We're talking about 10 years of development for talented, well organized groups, with constant feedback, review, testing, and some degree of industry support.
See, it would have been much funnier if you'd said "oh yeah, you and what army?", because then the answer would have been far more obvious. So, let's go into the obvious. Which of the following do you expect is the most "extraordinarily" (*) time consuming and expensive task? Which is the least? (Hint: not #5)
1) Immunizing a populace of over one billion people, many rural in a sense that Americans do not understand, against the largest changing body of cross-species novel viruses on the globe
2) Building a road infrastructure to the geographically largest country on earth, over 50% of which is essentially in the city infrastructure dark ages
3) Building and testing an operating system whose APIs are well known and have been documented for over 5 years, which has a number of open- and closed-source emulation packages already running for examples, and adding really large font support
4) Managing the world's largest military
5) Dealing with hosers like you
Other simple, mildly funny, painfully obvious examples exist by the metric assload. I feel I should point out that if both a company (Lindows) and the Open Source community (WINE) can do it, certainly, so can a government with a huge vested interest and pockets deeper than even the original creators could dream of.
There's no way China developed this from scratch, this fast,
Oh, yeah, because if Microsoft can make it from 95 to 98 in three years when it's cutting edge, still in development, and unknown, then years later, when it's well documented, something with at least twenty times the programmers, five years' worth of compiler development, five years' worth of compilation time increase and god knows how much deeper pockets couldn't possibly do it from scratch.
with their resources,
Do you believe that Microsoft has greater resources than the People's Republic of China?
A hint: nearly 10% of Chinese work for their government. Nearly 0.5% of those are programmers, resulting in 0.05% of the population being chinese government programmers.
Microsoft's Windows team is the largest commercial programming group in existance at ~1,400 programmers, IIRC.
Which means that, let's see, 0.5% of let's be generous and say a flat billion, which is way low, is a measely two hundred thousand. So, China must dedicate equal money (not a problem) and 0.007% of their programmers to match resources.
Gasp. Choke, even.
Cloning Windows 98 of all things doesn't make sense either. Windows 2000 is more stable, extensible, powerful.
Group X cannot complete copying Product 2, Revision 4. Besides, it's foolish for them not to try to mimic Product 3, Edition 4. (sighs)
If they can't do 98, they certainly can't do 2000. I think they could actually do either, and just don't want to waste time on 2000, which provides no significant value.
Oh, and here's yet another hint: if they're starting from scratch, IT DOESN'T MATTER IF WIN98 IS STABLE. They'll have all new code, remember? Or do you think that because they look and feel the same, one will nessecarily have the flaws of the other?
Besides, if they need something more than the original provided, they can add it. Remember, since they're writing it, they have both the source code and the engineers.
Do you think when you post, or just try to find things to argue with?
It's either Linux + WINE + custom hacks, or they probably got their hands on Windows 98 source code and did some global search and replaces.
Oh, yeah, because nobody would notice the extreme similarity in the binaries. Microsoft would *never* think to check for something which could net them tens of billions of dollars. Microsoft hasn't ever litigated anything, ever.
exclaim($jesus . $mary . $joseph); die();
(On a seperate note, I'm not refuting
We're talking about 10 years of development for talented, well organized groups
because there are so many funny jokes you can make with the observation that Microsoft did it in three years.)
(*) Extraordinary: outside of the ordinary. You cannot use "extraordinary" to describe the typical cost of building something, doltish. Turn the histrionicator off and try to use words you understand, please.
StoneCypher is Full of BS
What's up with Wine?
Crossover Office is coming along very nicely.
Why not throw a few million dollars at Codeweavers to bring Crossover Office up to Office XP compatibility? That's what I'd do anyway...
In the US, they just have to
declare you a "Terrorist"
and then you have no rights.
They can lock you up indefinitely
with no trial and without even
making any specific charges.
...one is run by a megalomaniac group of criminals intent on world domination. The other is communist.
(They got $4M in their lawsuit, but not before one of them died)
Free Software: Like love, it grows best when given away.
I'm afraid it's not that simple, Anonymous Coward. If I recall correctly, some of Windoze setup is based on an area of the CD that cannot or will not be burned onto a CD-R. (I had that problem with Microsoft Midtown Madness 2 while trying to archive it in case the CD got broken AGAIN.) Also there's a little problem of activation, which requires you to contact Microsoft within 30 days of the install if certain conditions are met, and CD Keys, and, and... It would just be simpler to buy an Open Licensing Agreement and pay $49k for 1000 copies. That way you'd get a special CD and CD Key which you COULD pirate. Or, purchase the Windoze NT 5 Chinese Edition source for a few hundred heads and work with that.
The DOS Guy lurking in the corner
Desktop operating systems entering Extended phase (effective date):
* Windows 95 (December 31, 2000)
* Windows 98 / 98 SE (June 30, 2002)
Desktop operating systems entering Non-Supported phase (effective date):
...
* Windows 95 (November 30, 2001)
I admit that Windoze 98 has not yet entered the Non-Supported phase, but a year is only twelve months, fifty-two weeks, 365.26 days, or 525600 minutes.
The DOS Guy lurking in the corner
What they don't realize is that this could hurt trade relations with the USA. If MS complains about this I'm sure the government will be forced to listen.. and it might have a direct negative impact on the trade agreement.
The US constitution was heavily affected by Iroquois Confederacy and it's democratic style of government. Unfortunately, it was also influenced by the historical European style of aristocratic sstyle of governence. Instead of creating a truly democratic nation the founding fathers tried to create what is, in effect, and elected aristocracy. This is what we inherited, and what we refer to as a 'democracy' today.
On the west coast, the Salish people had what I would describe as a hereditary democracy. Although the men wielded the leadership, they were chosen by a council of women elders, and power passed through the female line. Leadership was seen as a responsibility, not a right. Leaders were taught to consult with the people first. They spoke for their people, as opposed to deciding for them. If a leader was seen as not acting for his people, he could be removed by a simple majority vote.
Leaders who spoke for a tribe or village in area councils were chosen on an ad-hoc basis. The person who was seen as most capable of speaking (and listening) for the will of the people on that specific issue was sent to speak. It was not a permanent assignment.
These native methods of government seem to have evolved over centuries (or even millenia) as a way to be responsible for the possibility of human greed. The European/American method of democracy, on the other hand, was designed based on the aristocratic concept of divine right and the pseudo-religious belief that a leader would always act in the interests of his constituents. I would assign a big 'oops' to the latter proposition.
Free Software: Like love, it grows best when given away.
From the year 200AD? That's some old shit.
[insert witty comment here]
CMKY for one thing.
Do you have the money to buy the CMYK patents from their owners (mostly Adobe and Pantone)?
Photoshop plugin support for another.
Do you know anything about the Photoshop ABI? Perhaps you could help the GIMP developers hack a Photoshop compatible interface into GIMP for Windows.
Will I retire or break 10K?
Interesting post. My rhetorical point about the US was based on the correlation of age and undemocratic features in Anglo-American and European democracies (the Swiss probably fall right into that curve given the lack of universal suffrage until the Seventies). The next democratic revolution was France and talk about the problems with the French and democracy, oh vey!
Did appreciate the info and observations.
It is by coff... er, will, alone I set my mind in motion...