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FBI Bugging Public Libraries

Posted by michael on from the liberty-is-just-a-brand-of-jeep dept.

zamiel writes "Bill Olds writes in the Hartford Courant: 'I know my librarian, and I believe she would tell me if the government were tracking my computer use at the library. Don't you agree? No way. There's a gag order. When the FBI uses a court order or a subpoena to gain access to library computers or a list of the names of people who have borrowed certain books, librarians can't tell anyone - not even other librarians or you. They face a stiff federal penalty if they do. It's unfair that librarians should be placed in such a position.'" The American Library Association has a page with advice to librarians and links to previous news stories on the subject.

455 comments

  1. FRAST PAST! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: -1, Offtopic

    I mean "screw you."

  2. Sorry guys... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: -1, Offtopic

    I guess I just can't resist...

    F I R S T P O S T

  3. no by Anonymous Coward · · Score: -1, Offtopic

    no

  4. first prost by Anonymous Coward · · Score: -1, Offtopic

    I checked out first.

  5. pirst fost by Anonymous Coward · · Score: -1, Offtopic

    don't know.

  6. It's about time! by L.+VeGas · · Score: 4, Funny

    Those cranky librarians have been shushing people for years. About time someone shushed them back!

    --
    Best Windows Freeware
    1. Re:It's about time! by gowen · · Score: 5, Informative

      Hey! Don't diss librarians. Sometimes they're your last line of defence in protecting your First Amendment Rights.

      --
      Athletic Scholarships to universities make as much sense as academic scholarships to sports teams.
  7. USA-PATRIOT by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Proof again that you can get anything passed if it has a snazzy acronym.

    1. Re:USA-PATRIOT by mr_z_beeblebrox · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Proof again that you can get anything passed if it has a snazzy acronym.

      That and a president who implies that by challenging him or his cabinet you are voluntarily helping terrorists.

    2. Re:USA-PATRIOT by fudgefactor7 · · Score: 2, Funny

      Next thing: claiming and using your 5th Amendment rights will get you investigated further, because if you need to use the 5th, then clearly you did something wrong and we need to find out what that is!

      Dudes, it's turning into "1984". Unelect the current occupants of office, it's our only hope.

    3. Re:USA-PATRIOT by zericm · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Dudes, it's turning into "1984". Unelect the current occupants of office, it's our only hope.

      That means one has to believe that the current occupant of the White House was elected in the first place. I, for one, don't. And if one accepts the fact that El Presidente came to power in a coup worthy of any third world dictator, then his current governments attacks on our constitutional rights are not all that surprising.

      Turning into 1984? 9/11 was the day that 1984 became a reality. Bush got his Reichstag fire, and he has used it to his advantage.

      --
      The welfare of the people has always been the alibi of tyrants. - Albert Camus
    4. Re:USA-PATRIOT by 0x0d0a · · Score: 2

      Not quite. It wasn't conservative Republicans *actually* crashing into the WTC and then Bush blaming it on terrorists.

      --
      May we never see th
    5. Re:USA-PATRIOT by benzapp · · Score: 1

      Of course, it is the democrats who instituted and completely support the propganda tool that is the forced schooling establishment.

      not only that, it was the democrats who typically used this tactic. From Roosevelt I with the Maine in 1898, to the bullshit reasoning to enter WWI, or prohibition, or the income tax, forced schooling, Roosevelt II with pearl harbor, Kennedy with the cuban missle crisis, Johnson with vietnam... The list goes on. Republicans have never adopted deceit as their technique. Democrats have perfected it to a fine art.

      There is a reason all captains of industry, and rich people in general support the democratic party. The entire party is a fraud intended to create a class system in this nation, to keep everyone but the powerful stuck where they are. The Kennedys, carnegies, rockafellers, etc they sat around and conspired how to turn a nation of indepedent, freedom loving people into mindless drones, hopelessly dependent on their beneficiaries for their life.

      Only fools believe the democrats stand for anything other than preventing the masses of this country from ever taking back the country that is rightfully ours. Bush is no saint, but he is playing by the same rules democrats have for nearly a hundred years. In the end it doesn't matter. The corporate fascist state created by the democrats is crumbling. No one believes in any public services. Everyone knows the fief system of government bureauocracy is criminal. The game is up. Only the elderly and people of schooling age believe in democrats. Give an indoctrinated student 5 years of living in the real world, and he will realize all his teachers were full of shit.

      --
      I don't read or respond to AC posts
    6. Re:USA-PATRIOT by Mr.Sarcastic · · Score: 1

      -- SET DEATH=C:\BIN\LADEN

      huh?

      --

    7. Re:USA-PATRIOT by Qrlx · · Score: 2

      Republicans have never adopted deceit as their technique. Democrats have perfected it to a fine art. Hello?? Iran-Contra anyone??

      But I'm not here to play he-said she-said. Your post made a good point, but you're only half-right. In order to be more accurate, you need to make a few changes:

      There is a reason all captains of industry, and rich people in general support the democratic and republican two-party system.

      Look at the facts at opensecrets.org; the dems. and repubs. clearly play both sides of the field. It is not surprising that the two-party system works to perserve the dominance of the two-party system. Political Darwinism, if you will.

      Just don't expect a viable third party anytime soon. The hand-in-glove operations of the media, the mega-corps, and our (s)elected leaders maintain the hegemony very effectively. The only challenge in the past 150 years has come during the Great Depression, when times were so tough that people actually contemplated a (gasp) third alternative!

      You know, part of it is the way we are taught (by the media, maybe) to view everything in opposites. For example, "You are either with us or with the terrorists." Our legal system, too, is a two-party adversarial fight-to-the-death; not unlike Street Fighter II in its basic format (just add extra money for an "appeal"). This winner-take-all mentality is assuredly an American Way of Life at this point. Look at how the Electoral College works, with all 25 Florida votes going to a candidate who got a .01% majority. Survivor! is a great example -- it's not just "reality TV," it's a pervasive cultural meme in America.

      Most other democratic countries form coalition governments, where the parties are forced to reach some common ground and consensus. Here, the wind starts blowing from a different direction every election cycle.

      Yet, all this hubbub about the "differences" between the Democrats and Republicans pulls the wool over our eyes. How were the parties different on NAFTA, on bombing Afghanistan, or passing the DMCA? (They weren't.)

      If you think that there's more than minor degrees of separation between the Republicans and Democrats, you need to take a healthy step back, my friend.

    8. Re:USA-PATRIOT by Sri+Lumpa · · Score: 1


      Who cares if Bush's excuse for his power grab was genuine or falsified (like the Reichtag was)?

      Bush himself didn't care, he certainly went ahead and attacked Afghanistan before getting any real proof.

      --
      "The obvious mathematical breakthrough would be development of an easy way to factor large prime numbers." Bill Gates,
    9. Re:USA-PATRIOT by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Not quite. It wasn't conservative Republicans *actually* crashing into the WTC and then Bush blaming it on terrorists.

      The only thing which is known for sure is that several of the alleged terrorists turned up afterwards as living victims of identity theft. Bush appears rather eager to block an independent investigation of what went on, what has he got to hide?

    10. Re:USA-PATRIOT by mpe · · Score: 2

      Most other democratic countries form coalition governments, where the parties are forced to reach some common ground and consensus.

      In most democratic countries there are more than two political parties. Also there are frequently sub-national political parties.Including those such as the SNP, who's platform is for Scotland to be the independent nation state it hasn't been for nearly 400 years. Nothing like this in the US, even in Hawaii.

      Yet, all this hubbub about the "differences" between the Democrats and Republicans pulls the wool over our eyes. How were the parties different on NAFTA, on bombing Afghanistan, or passing the DMCA? (They weren't.)

      The "War on (some) drugs" is also a common slashdot example.

      If you think that there's more than minor degrees of separation between the Republicans and Democrats, you need to take a healthy step back, my friend.

      Especially where you have so called "open primaries" where candidates for either party are picked by the voters for both.

    11. Re:USA-PATRIOT by fudgefactor7 · · Score: 1

      "There is a reason all captains of industry, and rich people in general support the democratic party."

      Huh? You must be taking too high a dose of cough syrup. All corporate leaders I have ever seen are clearly Republican in nature.

    12. Re:USA-PATRIOT by Nept · · Score: 2

      you must be watching too much CNN. A good number of CEOs are democrats (ever heard of larry ellison?, and I don't believe there's a single american politician out there that doesn't receive PAC money from corporations.
      In fact, as far as I am concerned, the only difference between the two parties is that the democrats act more hypocritically in denying that they are supported by corporations, when in reality big business drives politics regardless of what side of the fence you sit on.

      --
      "Teachers leave us kids alone ..." - Roger Waters, Pink Floyd
    13. Re:USA-PATRIOT by Casualposter · · Score: 1

      Its called the Electoral College. The people do not vote for president. They choose electors who elect the president. The electors are free to cast their vote as they will. Therefore this whole Florida ballot thing is just plain stupid and does not in any way invalidate the election of Bush. Read up on US gov't BEFORE you speak.

      --
      Creative Spelling Copyright (2002). May use without Persimmons
    14. Re:USA-PATRIOT by zericm · · Score: 1

      No shit, you fucking pedant. You know, I'm not in a mood today to deal with people who think that Geo. Bush being president is a good thing.

      --
      The welfare of the people has always been the alibi of tyrants. - Albert Camus
    15. Re:USA-PATRIOT by DaytonCIM · · Score: 2

      This is entirely too easy:

      Republicans have never adopted deceit as their technique.

      One word: Nixon.

  8. Universities Too by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Informative

    The same thing goes for Universities too. They used to have to tell you by law, now they can't. They also don't need a subpoena to monitor your computer use any more. I believe a court order will work which is easier to get than a subpoena. So add computer labs and dorms to list.

    Thanks Patriot Act.

    1. Re:Universities Too by Fembot · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Fortunatly here in the UK AFAK this doesnt happen (yet) or is very hush hush still.. It strikes me as remarkably ironic that on the one hand there is all this anti-communist/anti-china propoganda and yet we're heading towards an orwellian future more than they are.

    2. Re:Universities Too by susano_otter · · Score: 5, Insightful
      ...we're heading towards an orwellian future more than they are.

      Yeah, because they're already there.

      --

      Any sufficiently well-organized community is indistinguishable from Government.

    3. Re:Universities Too by elmegil · · Score: 2

      Right. They aren't organized enough to COLLECT TAXES, you really expect me to believe they're organized enough to be big brother?

      --
      7 November 2006: The day Americans realized corruption and incompetence weren't addressing 11 September 2001
    4. Re:Universities Too by susano_otter · · Score: 2

      It's not about how many taxes you collect, it's about how many thoughts you control.

      It's the control over the ideologies and expectations of the masses that makes it Orwellian, not the efficacy and efficiency of the revenue service.

      --

      Any sufficiently well-organized community is indistinguishable from Government.

    5. Re:Universities Too by Suppafly · · Score: 2

      Actually, whats even scarier than the computer monitoring is the SEVIS requirements in the patriot act which require universities to be able to communicate with federal computers so the feds can track foreign students to be sure their visa's are valid. Presently they just require schools to enter the necessary information by hand, but the full plan calls for the feds to be able to interact with and get whatever student information they believe they are entitled to from the universities' computer systems.

    6. Re:Universities Too by mpe · · Score: 2

      Actually, whats even scarier than the computer monitoring is the SEVIS requirements in the patriot act which require universities to be able to communicate with federal computers so the feds can track foreign students to be sure their visa's are valid.

      This appears highly over complex. The only thing which would make sense is for US universities to require either proof of US citizenship or to see a visa and INS stamp when students register.

      Presently they just require schools to enter the necessary information by hand, but the full plan calls for the feds to be able to interact with and get whatever student information they believe they are entitled to from the universities' computer systems.

      Should they be storing visa details in the first place, isn't that the job of the INS and/or state department? If the US has borders so insecure that people can enroll in university without going through a border checkpoint then it might be better to worry about who might be entering the US illegally and doing things less obvious than attending school.

    7. Re:Universities Too by neonsky · · Score: 1

      Something similar did happen around 10 years ago.

      The CompSci department of my undergraduate degree course actually did a deal with the local bookstore. In return for giving the store exclusive access to the "recommended textbook" lists for each course (ie. buy these books or you don't get to take the course), the store would give the university access to the purchase lists of each book and/or the purchase lists for each student.

      Also, staff were also given rights to view the student history lists of each book in the library.

      The motivation behind all of this was to protect the university from lawsuits by students who had flunked their courses. If the university could prove that a student had access to all the relevant course materials then the student would have no chance of winning the case.

      Opponents of this decision pointed out that if a student was researching material for their own interests, then their research could be disclosed by a member of staff.

      After this, the demand for second-hand books paid for in cash sky-rocketed after this was announced. Would the department ban someone from taking the course if they hadn't purchased a single book from the store?

    8. Re:Universities Too by elmegil · · Score: 2
      You obviously have a problem parsing my language.

      If you can't tell (by being big brother) how much money anyone is making, and therefore how much taxes they owe, there's hardly any chance that you'll be able to tell what anyone is thinking and whether or not it conforms to Big Brother's Standards of Conduct. Money is easier to track than brainwaves and purchasing patterns.

      --
      7 November 2006: The day Americans realized corruption and incompetence weren't addressing 11 September 2001
    9. Re:Universities Too by susano_otter · · Score: 2

      Effective taxation requires a lot of infrastructure. Efficient taxation, more so. Getting most people to think like communists, and everybody to act like communists, not so much. Also, keep in mind that if you're going for the communist implementation of totalitarianism, taxes are irrelevant since nobody's making any money anyway.

      --

      Any sufficiently well-organized community is indistinguishable from Government.

    10. Re:Universities Too by elmegil · · Score: 2
      You seem to forget that the communists are no longer in direct control in Russia. And obviously they were not successful in sustaining big brother in any sense.

      I suspect we are a lot more likely to see that approach succeed here. Comparisons to a regime that mostly died 13 years ago are irrelevant.

      --
      7 November 2006: The day Americans realized corruption and incompetence weren't addressing 11 September 2001
    11. Re:Universities Too by susano_otter · · Score: 2

      I was actually thinking of China, which might explain our failure to communicate.

      --

      Any sufficiently well-organized community is indistinguishable from Government.

    12. Re:Universities Too by elmegil · · Score: 1

      Ah. Sure would. As far as I know, China isn't having troubles collecting taxes :-). And obviously twas my failure to read "china" that started it.

      --
      7 November 2006: The day Americans realized corruption and incompetence weren't addressing 11 September 2001
  9. michael, shut up by Anonymous Coward · · Score: -1, Offtopic
    you have the credibility of day old dogshit.

    nobody wants to hear your crap anymore.

    ZIP IT!

  10. Er, you don't say... by kableh · · Score: 3, Informative

    This was one of the nastier provision of the Patriot Act, and as I recall there was an uproar on /. when it first started getting press. <OB KARMA WH0REING>Related /. stories here and here.</OB KARMA WH0REING>

  11. Now you tell me! by drxenos · · Score: 4, Funny

    Time to return by copy of "Catcher in the Rye!"

    --


    Anonymous Cowards suck.
    1. Re:Now you tell me! by McFly69 · · Score: 2

      Oh shit... thanks for reminding me. I still have my Dr. Suess book. It was due back in 82 :(

      --



      NO! NO! Please don't mod me, I'm too young to die a troll. *click* Oh the pain, the pain...
    2. Re:Now you tell me! by Blkdeath · · Score: 3, Funny
      Oh shit... thanks for reminding me. I still have my Dr. Suess book. It was due back in 82 :(
      Duude! Don't Bundy that book!

      (Sorry; couldn't resist)

      --
      BD Phone Home!

      Shameless plug. Like you weren't expecting it.

    3. Re:Now you tell me! by unicron · · Score: 2

      Sometime in 83 the final reached $25 dollars, and was turned over to a collection agency. Your credit has now been getting anally raped for 19 years and now you're at the point where you wouldn't qualify for a Bic Mac and fries.

      --
      Finally, math books without any of that base 6 crap in them.
    4. Re:Now you tell me! by Mr+Guy · · Score: 2, Informative

      You missed the joke.

      "The Catcher in the Rye" is the book of choice for assassins. Check out Conspiracy Theory for references.

      --
      Never confuse volume with power.
    5. Re:Now you tell me! by nolife · · Score: 2

      Hell, I'm way overdue with "Samba for Dummies". After the antitrust ruling I don't think I am safe with that either..

      --
      Bad boys rape our young girls but Violet gives willingly.
  12. Oh, great. by BIGstan · · Score: 0, Redundant

    Now they're gonna find out about that copy of Winnie the Pooh that's been overdue for 27 years.

    Is this gonna make it a Federal offence?

    --

    BIGstan!
    1. Re:Oh, great. by JUSTONEMORELATTE · · Score: 2
      Now they're gonna find out about that copy of Winnie the Pooh that's been overdue for 27 years.

      Is this gonna make it a Federal offence?
      Not unless you're in California, and have two prior convictions. (Then, it's a felony, and you get 25-to-life for the newly-promoted felony charge)
      How I wish this was +1 funny instead of +0 JustPlainSad (but realistically, -1 OffTopic)

      --
  13. CONNECTICUT!!!!!!! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: -1, Offtopic

    CONNECTICUT!!!!!!!

  14. Wuh? by kaizenfury7 · · Score: 3, Funny

    What is this...library... you speak of?

    Is it anything like the Intarweb?

    1. Re:Wuh? by The+Turd+Report · · Score: 2, Funny

      It is just like the interweb, except you have to leave your house to access it and there is considerably *less* porn.

      --
      Michael Loves Me!
    2. Re:Wuh? by McFly69 · · Score: 5, Funny

      No sure, but once I walked into a build named Boston Public LIBRARY, to take a piss. When I was inside, I became scared. There were lunatics sitting in chairs, very quiet, just starting at table tops with a neat stack of papers. Soem were even chantign soemthign without making a soudn but their lips were moving! I was so scared, I pissed all over my shoes and ran out. Never went back in there since then.

      --



      NO! NO! Please don't mod me, I'm too young to die a troll. *click* Oh the pain, the pain...
    3. Re:Wuh? by Nick+Harkin · · Score: 1

      unfortunatly, no one can be told what the library is. you have to see it for yourself. ;)

    4. Re:Wuh? by ahaning · · Score: 1

      Libraries are the original "file"-sharing service (payed for by your taxes!)

      They have tons of books, tapes, CDs and even DVDs ripe for the "borrowing"! *nudge nudge*

      All you need is a card (free!) and you can borrow (or "check out") the stuff. Unfortunately, many of them have limited bandwidth and you can only check out a limited number of items at once. You also have to return the original media *wink wink* :-)




      (Don't steal music!)

      --
      Withdrawal before climax is very ineffective and those who try this are usually called "parents."
    5. Re:Wuh? by outsider007 · · Score: 2

      What is this...library... you speak of?

      it's a public restroom. some of them also have books.

      --
      If you mod me down the terrorists will have won
    6. Re:Wuh? by poot_rootbeer · · Score: 2


      It's just as well. Nearly impossible to find the men's room in the BPL anyway (around the corner, through the courtyard, down to the basement...)

    7. Re:Wuh? by blisspix · · Score: 1

      so, are you Don Saklad in disguise or what?

    8. Re:Wuh? by Dyolf+Knip · · Score: 2
      and there is considerably *less*

      You must not be going to the right libraries.

      --
      Dyolf Knip
    9. Re:Wuh? by The+Turd+Report · · Score: 1
      You must not be going to the right libraries.

      Well...let me re-state it: there is considerably less variety. The public library down the street doesn't have nearly enough asian lesbo porn.

      --
      Michael Loves Me!
  15. I don't trust them. by dnoyeb · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Everything will be used against you if they need someone to blame. Just pick the one with the most "X"s.

    I have several books that might raise an eyebrow. One is "Blueprint for Black Power" Amazon inserted a small paper saying it was below their standards when I ordered it from them. But I couldn't find any visible damage...

    This book is primarily about cultural phychology and has nothing to do with any radical movements or any such violence or the like. But I could easily be marked by one of the various government "plans" if they feelt the need over books like this.

    This is garbage and we shouldn't allow this in a 'free as in beer' society.

    What do they really expect to find? They already have shown they have enough information, but their problem is a lack of digestion and comprehention. Perhaps some of the Arabs and muslims they so actively alienate could be of assistance...Only if they really cared about security would that happen!

    1. Re:I don't trust them. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
      Add to the list, books

      of a scientific relating to chemical or biological agents supportive of anarchism, environmentalist, and the green movement supportive of anti-globalization, anti-capitalism regarding survivalism, militias, gun handling, highly critical of the US government, such as works by Noam Chomsky etc

      And then there are the books that have no rational link to terrorism, but are very interesting to law enforcement, such as

      pro-pedophilia books and magazines, loompanics texts ('YOUR REVENGE IS IN THE MAIL'), books on drug science/manufacture, etc

    2. Re:I don't trust them. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      AC because this is way off topic. 'Free as in beer' means that it is free in cost. 'Free as in speech' is a different kind of freedom. You are talking about the latter - the freedom to be (it is not cost-free to live in this society. Especially us geeks with our toys ;) )

      Also, (while I'm being nit-picky) your sig is one of the most misquoted verses in the bible. It should read "For the love of money is a root of all kinds of evil." There is a difference (much evil has nothing to do with money - they are not mutually exclusive)

    3. Re:I don't trust them. by dnoyeb · · Score: 2

      I agree however, I didnt misquote it. That is an exact quote from the KJV.

      The popular misquote is to say "money" is the root of all evil, as opposed to "the love of money."

    4. Re:I don't trust them. by thomas.galvin · · Score: 2

      I don't have my King Jim on me, but the NIV, which comes from an older text, reads "For the love of money is a root of all kinds of evil."

      --
      Thomas Galvin
    5. Re:I don't trust them. by mbogosian · · Score: 2

      "For the love of money is a root of all kinds of evil."

      Actually love of power is probably the root of all kinds of evil. Money just makes it easily accessable.

      --

      moto411.com
    6. Re:I don't trust them. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Ah. Checked a few versions (NASB,NIV,NLT,NKJV) and they all point at "a root of all kinds" and those are all translated directly from the orignal Greek. (KJV was translated from the Latin translated from the Greek. Think altavista's babelfish.)

      Course, I'm not God, but IMHO they mean two different things.

    7. Re:I don't trust them. by mpe · · Score: 2

      They already have shown they have enough information, but their problem is a lack of digestion and comprehention.

      Which just adding more information won't help one little bit. The problem with mass surveilance is that the signal to noise ratio is awful.

      Perhaps some of the Arabs and muslims they so actively alienate could be of assistance...

      Of course holding people without trial, kidnapping people from halfway around the world and making support of Zionism more important than people's welfare and even lives will really avoid alienating people. Not!

  16. I can already see ... by M.C.+Hampster · · Score: 5, Insightful

    ... the barage of posts talking about constitional rights, the Bush Administration and, of course, the 569 jokes about the "terrorists already winnning". But seriously, does anyone thing they have an absolute Constitional Right to anonymity when they use the internet or check out books in the library?

    I know that even posing the question is going to be seriously unpopular, but it should be asked.

    --
    Forget the whales - save the babies.
    1. Re:I can already see ... by MoneyT · · Score: 5, Interesting

      Well now you have a point there though. Remeber, free speech et al was written in a time when there wasn't true anonmity. If you spoke or said something, you had every right to say it, but people could also identify you. Even things like newpapers and pamphlets could be tracked back to you. Anonmity and Freedom are not one in the same.

      --
      T Money
      World Domination with a plastic spoon since 1984
    2. Re:I can already see ... by slow_flight · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Maybe not, but we do have a constitutionally protected right to free speech. That right is infringed upon when the speaker (or listener) is concerned about repercussions from an oppressive government. It is not a stretch to expect this constitutional protection to extend to what we read, whether in books or on the internet.

      --

      Karma: Professionally Doomed (mostly affected by inability to keep opinions to self)
    3. Re:I can already see ... by dnoyeb · · Score: 2

      Anonymity? No, not in America. But this has always been our way. Only we have insisted on oversight. This lacks "oversight."

    4. Re:I can already see ... by interiot · · Score: 4, Insightful

      IMHO, it's not about the right to anonymity so much, it's that we can't really have much public debate over this if it's absotelutely illegal for the librarians to mention it at all. Here I thought it was only heavy-handed non-democractic countries who 1) spied on citizens, and then 2) resolutely deny that any spying activity is taking place

    5. Re:I can already see ... by drxenos · · Score: 1

      Yes, its a good question. But done confuse the right with the difficulty. Just because the Internet make anonymity hard, doesn't negate the right. Free of expression without fear of reprisal is one of our most basic and important rights, and anonymity is part of it.

      --


      Anonymous Cowards suck.
    6. Re:I can already see ... by irregular_hero · · Score: 5, Insightful
      A right to anonymity is not the point.

      The question you should be asking is whether you have the freedom from pervasive government oversight as a result of Constitutional statute. Anonymity has never been a right of every citizen (that's the American way, just ask the advertising and marketing industry). However, there is a reasonable expectation to freedom from having our actions _overseen_ by our own government. It's one of the core distinctions of democracy itself, that the citizenry are the government's overseers, not the other way around.

    7. Re:I can already see ... by puppet10 · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Remeber, free speech et al was written in a time when there wasn't true anonmity.

      It was also a time of anonymous pamphleteering of political opinions unpopular with the established government which was part of the forsce behind the first amendment (speech and press) and has been held by the Supreme Court including a case of an Ohio law being struck down as unconstitutional because it wouldn't allow anonymous political speech through pamphleteering.

      --
      -------- This space intentionally left blank --------
    8. Re:I can already see ... by EllisDees · · Score: 5, Insightful

      >Remeber, free speech et al was written in a time when there wasn't true anonmity

      Yes there was. Even more than there is now. Anyone could make up a bunch of fliers and post them all over town in the middle of the night and there would be no way of knowing who did it. It's not like they could even check them for fingerprints...

      --
      -- Give me ambiguity or give me something else!
    9. Re:I can already see ... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Followed by another barrage of posts bewailing the first and backed up by no stronger arguments than "But, seriously...", and informed by a point of view that anything not explicitly guaranteed by the Constitution is fair game for government rule, which is, of course, the exact opposite of the Document's intent. Between your way of thinking and totalitarianism lies a short, straight, utilitarian line. Read history.

    10. Re:I can already see ... by thelexx · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Unpopular due to being so wrong:

      Amendment IX

      The enumeration in the Constitution, of certain rights, shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people.

      Amendment X

      The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people.

      Goddamn right I don't expect the government to be snooping on library records. And no I don't give a fuck if Bin Laden himself had checked out 'How to Fly but not Land an Airliner for Dummies' the day before last Sept. 11.

      --
      "Gold still represents the ultimate form of payment in the world." - Alan Greenspan, 1999
    11. Re:I can already see ... by Rick+the+Red · · Score: 0, Flamebait
      569 jokes about the "terrorists already winnning"
      It's not a joke. I see nothing at all funny about it. And it's quite true, too: they are winning, and they struck again yesterday.

      --
      If all this should have a reason, we would be the last to know.
    12. Re:I can already see ... by demonlapin · · Score: 1

      The other two repliers to you have done yeoman's work, but left something off: if you wanted to be anonymous, or have privacy, all you had to do was move to another town in another state. Sure, you did have to give up anything you can't carry with you - but if you showed up in Charleston, S.C., in 1768, and said you were John Weatherall from Frederick, Maryland, who would ever find out? It's not as though there were drivers' licenses or other documentation.

    13. Re:I can already see ... by DustMagnet · · Score: 1
      Common Sense was published anonymously. Since we know who wrote it, I'm not sure if it was "true anonmity" as you define it, but it was anonymous enough protect him from the English (aka The Man).

      Back to today, the courts have ruled many times against things that have a "chilling effect" on free speach. I think tracking people in libraries is clearly chilling, but so was 9/11.

      --
      'SBEMAIL!' is better than a goat!!
    14. Re:I can already see ... by dohcvtec · · Score: 3, Insightful

      I don't think there should be any expectation of anonymity, since libraries are public institutions, after all. I'm also of the opinion that it's OK to have cameras on street corners, because how is that really different from the cop walking down the street watching for anything suspicious? Or just some guy staring at you while you walk by. It's a public place, other people can see you, so why pretend that you have any inherent privacy? On the other hand, if the feds are looking for people that check out controversial books, then it almost seems like entrapment: the books are there for the taking, but you better not touch them, or else. Of course, the alternative is for the libraries to remove the aforementioned "flagged" titles, but that would be outright censorship.

      --
      -- Never hit a man with glasses. Hit him with a baseball bat.
    15. Re:I can already see ... by 4of12 · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Remeber, free speech et al was written in a time when there wasn't true anonmity.

      Sort of.

      In that day and age, if I went to the town marketplace, people would know me and could tell someone that Joe over there had been talking like a Tory, or whatever.

      But the central government probably didn't know me on that basis. And neither did they know instantly if someone uttered a word against the King's will. It had to be really outrageous and it would take weeks or months for politically indiscreet speech to cause a reaction with the central governmental authority.

      But a desire for anonymity was still there, because some individuals were in jeopardy, even with the molasses-like speed of the British military and government's intelligence operation. Indeed, that action at a distance delay is one of the reasons why rebellion in the colonies succeeded where rebellion in Scotland or Ireland did not.

      Despite the practical protection of distance and not computerized databases on citizens, Thomas Paine, in particular, often wrote under a pseudonym.

      At any rate, technology has changed.

      Despite its bureaucratic nature, we can't rely upon the FBI to be as sluggish in keyword analysis as King George's government.

      But anonymity of one kind or another was an important protection back then. These days, anonymity is an even more important ingredient as a check on unrestrained power that seeks to stifle opposing points of view.

      --
      "Provided by the management for your protection."
    16. Re:I can already see ... by thelexx · · Score: 5, Interesting

      "Even things like newpapers and pamphlets could be tracked back to you."

      Where the hell did you get that idea? Ever hear of the Federalist Papers? Signed 'Publius', the authorship of some of them are still debated.

      --
      "Gold still represents the ultimate form of payment in the world." - Alan Greenspan, 1999
    17. Re:I can already see ... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

      And also to freedom from unreasonable searches.

      What basis do they have for suspecting all people
      that use libraries?

      Anyone who thinks "oh well, it's ok because
      everything is different now and the government
      will only use it against the bad buys" does NOT
      know much about the early days of the FBI (F*ck
      Hoover). You also don't know about the abuses
      against suspected Communist, minority rights, and
      peace organizations.

    18. Re:I can already see ... by DarkSkiesAhead · · Score: 5, Insightful

      free speech et al was written in a time when there wasn't true anonmity. ... Even things like newpapers and pamphlets could be tracked back to you.
      How exactly could pamphlets be tracked to you 200 years ago? The point of pamphlets was that you didn't need to give your name to the printer and you could take them far away to distribute and simply post or drop them. You didn't need to show your government issued ID. There were no credit cards to track down. They wouldn't even be able to track your fingerprints down.

      What anonymity gives us is the ability to disagree even when we fear retaliation for our words. While this may not be a basic right listed in the Constitution it's certainly a valuable tool and worth fighting to keep.
    19. Re:I can already see ... by MasterKayne · · Score: 1
      It might be helpful to review the 9th and 10th amendment.

      The point is Americans should have all rights, 100% freedom - rights revoked. Not 0% rights + whatever we are granted.

      1. Convince Americans the enumerated rights are all they have. Then enumerate less.
      2. ??
      3. Profit

      Amendment IX

      The enumeration in the Constitution, of certain rights, shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people.

      Amendment X

      The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the states, are reserved to the states respectively, or to the people.


      To answer your question, yes, I have an absolute Constitional Right to anonymity. I'm talking Constitution here. I have the right because the Constitution does not say otherwise.

      The ideal of freedom is not one we have lost, it is one we have yet to achieve.
    20. Re:I can already see ... by Dannon · · Score: 5, Interesting

      Thomas Paine's Common Sense, commonly regarded as one of the most influential writings of its time, was first published anonymously. The publisher knew who the author was, and people of his time found out if they really wanted to, but Paine didn't claim any credit up front.

      I've been reading it lately, as part of a compiled volume of Paine's best writings. I find it really interesting to read some of the thoughts that were influential in the forming of my government. And, in the process, I'm learning a few things about the history of British government that I didn't know, either....

      I've been taking my time reading through it, though. Some very deep words to think about. So it's probably a good thing I didn't borrow this book from the library.

      --
      Good judgment comes from experience.
      Experience comes from bad judgment.
    21. Re:I can already see ... by Jeremy+Erwin · · Score: 2

      The Federalist Papers were authored by the pseudonymous "Publius" (Now believed to be James Madison, Alexander Hamilton, and John Jay.) Similarly, various opposing views were published by Agrippa, Brutus, Cato, etc

    22. Re:I can already see ... by ChaosDiscord · · Score: 5, Insightful
      But seriously, does anyone thing they have an absolute Constitional Right to anonymity when they use the internet or check out books in the library?

      The general case is that you have a right to anonymously publish or read. Without this right, our right to free speech is shallow and nearly meaningless. The right to anonymously read ensures that if you're curious about the principles of Communism, you won't be dragged in front of the House Unamerican Activities Comission or any similar modern witch hunt. It ensures that your teenage fling with Anarchism isn't going to taint your job record twenty years later. Without anonymity, you put yourself at risk of future loss for what you read today, or you limit what you read to official sanctioned materials.

      The right to anonymously publish ensures that you can get your work out even if powerful forces attempt to silence you. Sure, in the long run the First Amendment should protect you, but in the short run your life can be destroyed. Our founding fathers (assert(reader.nationality==AMERICAN)) used anonymous publications to raise public support against the British and for the new Constitution. The Supreme Court has ruled in favor of anonymous speech (repeatedly).

      Given that anonymous speech and reading is essential to free speech, it's only natural that the same rules would apply to the internet and libraries. The internet is simply a new way to express yourself. Allowing anonymous pamphlettering, publishing, and speech, but prohibiting anonymous speech on the internet is silly. Similarly, public libraries exist in part to support an educated citizenry. If citizens are afraid to check out "dangerous" books to educate themselves, we're stifling the democratic process which requires free access to information.

      --
      Search 2010 Gen Con events
    23. Re:I can already see ... by Omnifarious · · Score: 2

      There is actually a long and colorful history of anonymously published pamphlets. Often the original author only became known long after the political change advocated by the pamphlet came to pass, or after the author was dead.

      --
      Need a Python, C++, Unix, Linux develop
    24. Re:I can already see ... by mjolnir_ · · Score: 5, Insightful

      The right to free speech isn't at issue here -- it's the freedom from unwarranted search and seizure (Amend. IV of the Bill of Rights) that has, in the modern age, been widely (and often inbcorrectly) interpreted as granting some notion of privacy. And it has nothing to do with democracy per se, rather the tyranny of powerful states that the framers were trying to avoid.

      Of course, we seem to be heading in that very direction now anyway.

      Did you vote today?

    25. Re:I can already see ... by og_sh0x · · Score: 1

      This isn't about your right to not have information recorded about your library habits or web surfing habits. That information always was recorded and always was available by court order. At issue is whether or not you don't have a right to know that this information is being scrutinized. In an extreme case, not knowing this information means the government can carelessly scrutinize anyone and everyone without repercussion.

    26. Re:I can already see ... by ChaosDiscord · · Score: 2
      Even things like newpapers and pamphlets could be tracked back to you.

      And yet many potentially contentious political documents where successfully published anonymously by our forefathers, including the Federalist Papers.

      Assuming you trusted your allies to keep their mouths shut, anonymity was even easier when our freedom of speech was drafted.

      Anonymity and Freedom are not one in the same.

      They are not the same, but they are related. Without anonymous speech (and the ability to anonymous hear that speech), your right to free speech is severely limited.

      --
      Search 2010 Gen Con events
    27. Re:I can already see ... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It's called a "chilling effect", by our Supreme Court on other matters at least, and that fact that you've been modded up makes me wonder about /. readers in general.

      Does the term "slippery slope" mean ANYTHING to you? Yes, maybe you and I don't have a problem with the government secretly tracking people who read how to make bombs. But from there it's a VERY short step to the government tracking people who read how to program encryption (encryption is legally classified as a munition, btw, which is why there are export controls on it), how to learn about network security; perhaps one day discussing and publishing MS security flaws will be considered threatening to national security.?

      The U.S. is NOT a sinister Communist power, but we DO have a lot of assholes who take overbroad laws and use them to harass otherwise innocent people.

      Maybe the government will decide that people who read about legalizing drugs, or reviving Napster, etc. should be monitored. Yes, I realize Bush isn't that sinister. Nixon was. So if we get these laws in place now, under nice Mr. Bush, and we get another Mr. Nixon when these laws are STILL in place, it could be ugly. And illegal.

      But you're right. How dare we whine about un-American laws.

    28. Re:I can already see ... by inode_buddha · · Score: 1

      Let us not forget, either, that the public library system in USA was founded by a certain Benjamin Franklin in Philadelphia. He was also a noted publisher of anonymous works, both his own and others.

      --
      C|N>K
    29. Re:I can already see ... by Reality+Master+101 · · Score: 2

      Maybe not, but we do have a constitutionally protected right to free speech. That right is infringed upon when the speaker (or listener) is concerned about repercussions from an oppressive government.

      There is a balance between free speech and responsible speech. In an oppressive government, there is certainly an interest in having anonymous speech be protected. But in most western governments, IMO the potential for abuse of anonymous speech (e.g., false accusations) outweighs the value of anonymous speech.

      In other words, you have very little fear in the United States for being prosecuted by the government for your beliefs*. Therefore, it's more in the interest of society for you to take responsibility for your speech.

      *And please, don't quote me obscure cases where government abuse might have occured. All that shows is that the exceptions prove the rule.

      --
      Sometimes it's best to just let stupid people be stupid.
    30. Re:I can already see ... by memnock · · Score: 1

      this makes me think of the preemptive arrests that took place last month in DC at the World Bank meeting.

      guilty until proven innocent...

      --
      "To stop the terrorists."
    31. Re:I can already see ... by RobotRunAmok · · Score: 2, Interesting

      A Bunch of Fliers? All Over Town?! Oh, Boy!!

      The Rascals! The... The Anarchists!!

      And if they wanted to put some in the next town, they went to their corner Kinko's?

      There was no anonymity, no over-educated under-worked "Anonymous Cowards" when your Constitutional rights were framed. You had a gripe, you got up on your soapbox in the Town Square and you made it, loud and clear. The Founding Fathers wanted to make sure you couldn't be legally shot or carried off later that night, so they protected your right to speak freely. The Constitution does not, was not meant to, protect your anonymity as you take snivelling globally distributed pot shots at the government or corporations or the media or soccer Moms or Britney Spears all from the safety of a firewalled computer terminal on your employer's time.

      Want to really make a difference, be heard, get your point across? Find a large group of like-minded people and have a rally. The Founding Fathers knew that took guts, too (it was the age of Napolean's "whiffs of grapeshot," after all), and so they protected your Right to Assemble. In public, where people live, not in a virtual "chatroom," or (saints and martyrs preserve us!) a "Blog."

      Got something to say? That's great, let's hear it. But be prepared to take personal responsibility for it. I may not agree with you, but I'll defend to the death your freedom to say it. But just have the balls to own up to your words, and don't expect to hide behind the Internet or your Mom.

      In short, the Founding Fathers did not work to protect your right to be an Anonymous Coward... maybe because they knew that cowards already die a thousand deaths and there was not much anybody could do to improve their lot.

      All this is not to say that I don't respect your privacy, or respect others who respect their privacy. It's just not a God-given or Constitutional right, then or now.

    32. Re:I can already see ... by Elwood+P+Dowd · · Score: 3, Interesting

      We can debate it publicly just fine. The librarians are allowed to complain about the law. They just aren't allowed to tell you you're being monitored. We know the law is in place. That's in the public record. There's no secret about what's going on.

      The problem is Americans don't care about their freedoms any more. Hell, how many slashdotters didn't know about this law 'till they read it here today?

      --

      There are no trails. There are no trees out here.
    33. Re:I can already see ... by Wyatt+Earp · · Score: 1

      There is a huge difference between using a UAV to fire a missile into a SUV full of Tangos and "terrorism".

      1. The aircraft while possibly not USAF marked, is marked USA somewhere with a US tailcode somewhere on it.

      2. The missile used will have serial numbers and other national identifiers on it's casing.

      3. The primary target of said missile is an enemy combatant, operating outside of UMC regulations and in violation of every treaty concerning military combatants. Thus, any rights to a fair and speedy trial are right out the window.

      Personally, I feel that every combatant captured in Afghanistan, Pakistan or wherever not in a uniform is subject to military justice, an uprising of prisoners in northern Afghanistan was rightly bombed and shelled.

      If one wants the rights accorded to a combatant, then they need to operate within the framework the international community has established to govern warfare over the last 400 years.

      Yea I'm off topic.

    34. Re:I can already see ... by WilliamX · · Score: 2

      This lacks oversight

      Except it doesn't lack oversight at all. They have to justify the need for these warrants to a judge, just like they have to do to tap your phone without your knowledge.

      Librarians have blown this entire issue way out of proportion.

      Also,does anyone have a count of how many times this story has been published here as "New" on Slashdot? Talk about lack of editorial memory ;)

    35. Re:I can already see ... by Moofie · · Score: 2

      OK, if I don't have a Constitutionally protected right to be free from surveillance, why is the FBI entitled to be free from MY surveillance? In other words, if they are entitled to surveil me anonymously, why am I not allowed to read books anonymously?

      As a side note, can this new measure be justified by historical precedent of Bad Guys using libraries to do Bad Things, or is it simply a power grab by the FBI?

      --
      Why yes, I AM a rocket scientist!
    36. Re:I can already see ... by outsider007 · · Score: 2

      I've been using public libraries for a while now, and it's rare when you're allowed to enter and exit one nowadays without a search. To me this is a bigger violation of my constitutional rights, but this doesn't bother me so much as the fact that my tax dollars are going to staff 2 full time cops to do the search. Is my small town library really such a hotbed of terrorism? Somehow I doubt it.

      --
      If you mod me down the terrorists will have won
    37. Re:I can already see ... by b!arg · · Score: 1

      Yes...you do have a right to anonymity...not under the guise of freedom of speech but rather the 4th amendment, that being illegal search and seizure..."probable cause" needs to be established before a search can be conducted

      --

      Everybody dies frustrated and sad and that is beautiful
    38. Re:I can already see ... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      'The Constitution does not, was not meant to, protect your anonymity'

      You may have an argument on the 'was not ment to' part but the 'does not' part ...

      Ninth amendment:
      The enumeration in the Constitution, of certain rights, shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people.

      just because the constitution does not say 'you have a right to anonymity ' does not mean that the constitution does not protect it. Only a statement saying 'you do not have a right to anonymity ' would, and unless it is amended to contain such a statement, a right to anonymity is implicit in the constitution.

    39. Re:I can already see ... by EllisDees · · Score: 4, Interesting

      > A Bunch of Fliers? All Over Town?! Oh, Boy!

      Yep. Completely anonymously. How scandalous! As one of the other posters pointed out, even whole books could be published anonymously. How did the country ever survive?!?

      >There was no anonymity, no over-educated under-worked "Anonymous Cowards" when your Constitutional rights were framed. You had a gripe, you got up on your soapbox in the Town Square and you made it, loud and clear.

      You could even ride your horse to another town and get up on a soapbox there, and guess what - nobody knew you! That's right, you were anonymous and were allowed to speak!

      >The Founding Fathers wanted to make sure you couldn't be legally shot or carried off later that night, so they protected your right to speak freely. ...and anonymously.

      >The Constitution does not, was not meant to, protect your anonymity as you take snivelling globally distributed pot shots at the government or corporations or the media or soccer Moms or Britney Spears all from the safety of a firewalled computer terminal on your employer's time.

      Of course not. They didn't have any concept of firewalls or Britney Spears. They didn't need to spell out the right to be anonymous because everyone already was effectively anonymous. They had no way of knowing that some day the government would have to power to track everything you do, and would have been horrified at the idea.

      --
      -- Give me ambiguity or give me something else!
    40. Re:I can already see ... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      What anonymity gives us is the ability to disagree even when we fear retaliation for our words. While this may not be a basic right listed in the Constitution it's certainly a valuable tool and worth fighting to keep.

      So how come Anonymous Cowards a score of zero to start with, and are constantly modded down? ;-)

      (Yes, it is a joke).

    41. Re:I can already see ... by PhxBlue · · Score: 2

      The Constitution doesn't work that way. Look at the Ninth and Tenth Amendments: any power not expressly given to the Federal Government or to the states is granted to the people.

      So it's not a question of, "do you have the right to anonymity." It's a question of, does the government have the right to monitor you under a given situation? In this case, because the threat to public safety and the possible information that could be gained from this kind of surveillance are minimal, the answers to both questions should be, "No."

      --
      !#@%*)anks for hanging up the phone, dear.
    42. Re:I can already see ... by mschuyler · · Score: 1

      It may not be a constitutional right, but my state (Washington) has a law on the books that protects the privacy of patron records, so a library cannot disclose any patron information without a court order.

      We've been over this ground before. Libraries do not keep a reading history. If you bring the stuff back on time, it gets erased. Once it cycles off the backup tapes (which don't go back that far and would be a big pain in the patootie to restore) no one knows what you had checked out prior. Ant yes, I'm sure, because I've run these systems for the last 20 years.

      --
      How about a moderation of -1 pedantic.
    43. Re:I can already see ... by GigsVT · · Score: 1

      IMO the potential for abuse of anonymous speech (e.g., false accusations) outweighs the value of anonymous speech

      That's a BS assertion. I don't know if you were only making an observation of the value system that exists, or whether you were asserting it as valid, but in any case, anonymous speech that makes false accusations is not dangerous.

      Any anonymous speech is automatically suspect, why should it hold any credibility on its face?

      After all, if anonymous speech was given the same sway as non-anonymous speech, then everyone would know "GigsVT is a fag" and wouldn't question it. (Hi Mr Anonymous GigsVT troll!)

      --
      I've had enough abrasive sigs. Kittens are cute and fuzzy.
    44. Re:I can already see ... by Lord+Bitman · · Score: 2

      I dont see it that way. Rather, I see it a short step from them tracking people who check out books on civil disobedience to such records being deemed worthy to be presented as evidence in court. You have a right to read it, sure, but can you feel safe afterwards? How long until someone, lacking better evidence, stumbles accross your name in both a witness list and a 20 year old record of a book you checked out?

      --
      -- 'The' Lord and Master Bitman On High, Master Of All
    45. Re:I can already see ... by poot_rootbeer · · Score: 2

      Anyone could make up a bunch of fliers and post
      them all over town in the middle of the night and there would be no way of knowing who did it.

      Given that cities had maybe a handful of printing presses, the first thing the authorities would do is visit the pressmen and try to find out who came in and ordered 1,000 copies of a pamphlet printed up.

      Not so different from today.

    46. Re:I can already see ... by joebagodonuts · · Score: 1

      Unfortuantely, "We the people" have allowed our Governement to become the overseers, and we have shirked our responsibility as the government's overseer. I have the feeling that as a whole, Americans are a bunch of spoiled children. Americans don't want to be responsible or to work. There are exceptions, but the majority seems to prefer that the government act as a parent. There is moaning and complaining, but no action is taken to make things different.

      If "We the people" don't like it, it is up to "we the people" to change it.

      --
      "Give a woman two glasses of wine and some pad thai, and they'll agree to just about anything." the Sports Guy
    47. Re:I can already see ... by 5KVGhost · · Score: 2

      Yes there was. Even more than there is now. Anyone could make up a bunch of fliers and post them all over town in the middle of the night and there would be no way of knowing who did it.

      "Anyone" with access to printing press, you mean. And in Colonial America that's not a huge number of people. It's not like everyone had a laser printer at their house.

    48. Re:I can already see ... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      First, let me state that I am whole heartedly against being spied upon in libraries. That being said, I don't believe your arguments regarding the ammendments hold much water.

      1) Peramble to the constitution:
      We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defence, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America.

      2) Article 1 Section 8 clause 18:
      To make all Laws which shall be necessary and proper for carrying into Execution the foregoing Powers, and all other Powers vested by this Constitution in the Government of the United States, or in any Department or Officer thereof.

      Some, and I believe rightfully, argue that the preamble itself can be used as something that vests powers in the Government. By using that argument, as dumb and Orwellian as it may seem, we could say that the Congress has the power to make such acts as the PATRIOT act and any other act that is not specifically prohibited by other ammendments and sections. If you want to get PATRIOT thrown out due to constitutional issues you'll need to first get a new ammendment. And considering the last one only took some 100 years to pass, don't hold your breath ( Exagerated example? Yes, but good none the less ).

      Furthermore as to citing specific ammendments, can you give me one example of a right that is retained by the people? I'm of the opinion that there are none. Article 1 Section 8 was crafted very carefully, and for the most part can include almost anything that is not specifically disallowed by other parts of the constitution. The smae agument can be applied to Ammendment X, it's meaningless and was presented to appease the state that thought (Correctly) that they would have no power after the establishment of the federal government.

    49. Re:I can already see ... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Does the term "slippery slope" mean ANYTHING to you?

      Odd.. My understanding of the term "slippery slope" is as a type of fallacy (erroneous logic). Just because Step A CAN lead to Step B which CAN lead to Step C, does not mean that Step A WILL lead to step B which WILL lead to step C. That, I believe, is what the term "Slippery Slope" refers to.

    50. Re:I can already see ... by Rick+the+Red · · Score: 2
      There is a huge difference between using a UAV to fire a missile into a SUV full of Tangos and "terrorism".
      I disagree. President Regan signed an executive order forbidding the CIA or any other United States agency from assasination. "W" has not signed an executive order recinding Regan's. If we knew where this fellow was (and we did, since we killed him) why didn't we arrest him and bring him to justice? Killing him in cold blood is murder, and no different than what "W" calls terrorism when done by others. Pot. Kettle. Black.

      --
      If all this should have a reason, we would be the last to know.
    51. Re:I can already see ... by 0x0d0a · · Score: 2

      I assume you purchased it with *cash*...

      --
      May we never see th
    52. Re:I can already see ... by 5KVGhost · · Score: 2

      That's a good question. And if absolute anonymity is granted to public library patrons, then what makes them so special?

      Let's say the FBI is investigating a poisoning. One of their possible suspects is known to have visited a hardware store a few days before the murder. An agent gets a warrant and asks the store manager for a copy of the suspect's receipt. The receipt indicates that the suspect purchased a poison, the same poison used in the murder. Aha. Obviously this suspect is worth investigating a bit more closely. Fearing that the suspect might panic, flee or destroy evidence, the employees of the hardware store are told not to say anything to the suspect about the investigation.

      I hear that examining receipts and tracking purchases is a fairly common method of gathering evidence. And I'd imagine that most people involved in a criminal investigation are asked not to tell the person being investigated exactly what the police are doing, for obvious reasons.

      So, any objections to that first scenario? Ok, try this variation:

      Let's say the FBI is investigating a poisoning. One of their possible suspects is known to have visited a library a few days before the murder. An agent gets a warrant and asks the librarian for a copy of the suspect's borrowing records. The records indicate that the suspect borrowed a medical text about the dosages and effects of various poisons, including the same poison used in the murder. Aha. Obviously this suspect is worth investigating a bit more closely.
      Fearing that the suspect might panic, flee or destroy evidence, the librarians are told not to say anything to the suspect about the investigation.

      You tell me, what's the difference? Why should police investigating a crime be denied access to that information? And what is so ominious about librarians being asked to keep quiet about an ongoing investigation?

      If different standards are to be enforced, should these same special rules apply to bookstores, newsstands, or private libraries? Or are the books and employees found in public libraries unique in some way?

    53. Re:I can already see ... by Stonehand · · Score: 2

      According to Pres. Clinton, the assassination ban only applies to heads of state. Mr. Al-Qaeda-Man doesn't qualify.

      Also, the Yemenis already tried to arrest the guy, and lost eighteen soldiers in the process when the locals attacked the authorities -- the region is lawless and the Yemenis have very, very poor control over there. An "arrest" doesn't work very well when the locals are heavily armed and against you, and it'd be an utter humiliation for the government if the /US/ (which would also have to kill the villagers to succeed) were summoned to bring him in. It's also more politically acceptable in the region for Yemenis (Moslem) to kill Yemenis (Moslem) than for the US (has Moslems, but seen as an infidel state) to kill Moslems.

      'sides from the above facts, they were in a vehicle, in the desert, away from traffic, with weapons. What, you think they'd kindly stop if a helicopter (which wasn't in the area) buzzed by with a megaphone?

      --
      Only the dead have seen the end of war.
    54. Re:I can already see ... by Mikeytsi · · Score: 1

      There were no driver's licenses. There were no Social Security cards. There was no real means to track anyone. By that token, you WERE anonymous.

      --
      I've been called a "Fucking Dick" by better people than you.
    55. Re:I can already see ... by b!arg · · Score: 1

      There is no problem in either situation...they have probable cause in each case. They have a suspect and they are gathering information on that suspect. Fine. Sounds good to me. And the fact of the matter is that they would have some sort of warant to gather that information. The problem lies in having no probable cause and merely getting a listing of people who have checked out "book x". These people have done nothing wrong necessarily and therefore the government has no right to see those records. They have committed no crime. It is almost like saying that checking out that book is illegal. So if the government came out and said it is illegal to own a given book...what do you think the response of the people would be then?

      --

      Everybody dies frustrated and sad and that is beautiful
    56. Re:I can already see ... by Mikeytsi · · Score: 1

      I'll drag out the old argument again.

      Let's suppose I thought Osama Bin Laden was right for a second. Now, let's suppose I go write a letter, stating who I am, and where I live, and my beliefs that all Americans should die. How quickly do you think I would be arrested and charged with terrorism?

      "Unpopular" speech has just as much a right to exist as "popular". If it has to be done anonymously, so be it. If it's "false accusations" as you claim, investigation will bear this.

      There is a lot of fear right now of being prosecuted (persecuted) under the current government climate for your beliefs. If you don't think this is true, think about the Muslims and Hindus (damn ingnorant rednecks) that were assaulted after these attacks. Let's not forget, the US goverment is by the people, for the people. If you're a citizen, you're officially part of the government. You're assertion that the exceptions make the rule is a fallacy in this case, as it's the threat of BECOMING part of that "minority" stifles free speech.

      --
      I've been called a "Fucking Dick" by better people than you.
    57. Re:I can already see ... by Reality+Master+101 · · Score: 2

      How quickly do you think I would be arrested and charged with terrorism?

      Never. In fact, take a look at some of the radical Islamic web sites sometime. You'll see that this is not an uncommon theme.

      They only thing that will put a knock on your door is threats to the President, which by law they have to take seriously.

      --
      Sometimes it's best to just let stupid people be stupid.
    58. Re:I can already see ... by kcbrown · · Score: 2
      Anonymity has never been a right of every citizen (that's the American way, just ask the advertising and marketing industry).

      "The enumeration in the Constitution, of certain rights, shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people." -- 10th Amendment to the U.S. Constitution.

      Just because the right to anonymity isn't enumerated doesn't mean it's nonexistent. Given the situation and the values of the framers during the time the U.S. was founded, and especially given the anonymous nature of the Federalist Papers, I'd say the framers probably thought that anonymity was a right even if they didn't explicitly enumerate it.

      --
      Use 'slashdot stuff' in the subject line in any email you send me if you want to get past the spam filter.
    59. Re:I can already see ... by Qrlx · · Score: 2

      You had a gripe, you got up on your soapbox in the Town Square and you made it, loud and clear.

      Unfortunately, today's soapbox is The Mall, and it's a privately owned space. They can and do regulate what sort of speech/conduct is permitted, and speaking your mind in the Food Court is not allowed.

      What should be done is that our local leaders should establish some sort of public use rights for large private establishments, as a way to mitigate their impact. The mall, for example, probably causes traffic problems for the nearby community, and it probably had to get some zoning easements to be built in the first place.

      Unfortunately, half the people running our local government are also the people building the mall. They're not participating in local government for the betterment of the citizenry...well they are in the sense that they believe that our interests are best served by acquiescing to whatever the developers want. This just happens to coincide with their interests...

      Look at how little participation there is in our local government. Presidential elections get the highest voter turnout, but really so many more tangible things are happening at the local level. The last non-presidential primary I voted in had a turnout of like 11%, and this in civic-minded Seattle.

      Democracy doesn't actually work, at least not when monied interests are the only ones who bother to participate. I wonder why so many people claim it's the best form of government? Give me a benevolent despot any day. Either that, or make voting mandatory, with a fine if you don't vote. Just put a "none" box on the ballot for those who don't want to vote.

    60. Re:I can already see ... by MoneyT · · Score: 2

      On the other hand, if you got up on your soap box in the middle of the street, or you gave pamphlets to people on the street or went to the printer to get something printed up, you could be identified by site. So if you ran arround screaming anarchy and death to people who didn't believe in your ways, people saw you and identified you, and even if you had no name, your reputation could precede you. Want your anonmity? Go save up the cash for soem plastic surgery and go chuck your SS card and your drivers licence, and all your credit cards etc. Sure you have to give up a lot, but so did people who wanted to be anonymous back then. As I see it, everything in life is a sort of double edged sword, the easier it becomes to be anonymous (now you can print a whole series of propaganda and papers from your home and distribute it all over without anyone having seen your face) the easier it becomes to track and trace you. In the end it all balances out.

      --
      T Money
      World Domination with a plastic spoon since 1984
    61. Re:I can already see ... by MoneyT · · Score: 2

      Chances are you won't be arrested, but you will be watched more closely. And in all honesty there is nothing wrong with that. When you go into an area of your town known for violence, don't you watch your back a little bit more? If you knew that your neighbor made explosives in his basement (maybe he's just a demolitions worker, maybe he's not) wouldn't you keep an eye on him a bit more than normal? Caution against perceved threats is fine, it's action against unidentified threats that causes problems.

      --
      T Money
      World Domination with a plastic spoon since 1984
    62. Re:I can already see ... by Wyatt+Earp · · Score: 1

      Enemy combatant not in a uniform.

      No rights by the rules that govern warfare, no rights to a trial, no rights to an arrest.

      Like a spy, a combatant not in a uniform is subject to summary execution on the field of battle.

      The CIA can't kill a head of State, but otherwise it may operate as a government agency would in a time of war. Although, a CIA agent not in uniform is also subject to the same rules reguarding a combatant not in uniform.

      OSS, German Intelligence, MI6, DIA, SAS, SBS, NVKD, CIA, FBI, KGB all organizations operated and killed people in theatres of battle and neutral nations before, during and after World War Two. Dead agents on all sides involved during the Cold War.

    63. Re:I can already see ... by MoneyT · · Score: 2

      That ban applies to heads of state. TO be a head of state, you have to be an internationaly recognized leader of a legitamate government. Al Queda and the Taliban are not recognized as legitimate rulers. Therefore they are not protected from that ban.

      --
      T Money
      World Domination with a plastic spoon since 1984
    64. Re:I can already see ... by MoneyT · · Score: 2

      However, unless it specificaly violates (as determined by the supreme court) a right granted to the people or denied to the government by the constitution, the congress has the right to make all laws deemed "nessesary and proper". So far, the Patriot Act has been deemed such. Therefore, it's the government's right to spy on you, just as it's your right to be anonymous (dont' want to get caugt? read it in the library instead of checking it out). It's wierd and hazy stuff, but so is all of the government. It's that way be design.

      --
      T Money
      World Domination with a plastic spoon since 1984
    65. Re:I can already see ... by King_TJ · · Score: 2

      Exactly right!

      You know, perhaps the most disconcerting thing about this whole issue is the *greatly flawed* notion that the materials one reads has any bearing on their guilt or innocence in the acts they perform.

      No matter how many books I choose to read about serial killers, it doesn't make me one. The very idea that somebody would label me as "suspicious" of such activity if I did read these books smacks of "circumstantial evidence" - which should have very little value in a court of law.

    66. Re:I can already see ... by MoneyT · · Score: 2

      However a search of a person and their property has been expressly limited to items on that person and their identifiable personal property. If information want's to be free, than the information of what you do in a public place with public materials is therefore not your property.

      --
      T Money
      World Domination with a plastic spoon since 1984
    67. Re:I can already see ... by MoneyT · · Score: 2

      That's not what the story was about though, the story was about not being told that you were being investigated.

      --
      T Money
      World Domination with a plastic spoon since 1984
    68. Re:I can already see ... by Pyrrus · · Score: 1

      the fact that the librarian cannot tell you if you are being monitored is restricting their right to free speech.

    69. Re:I can already see ... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
      But seriously, does anyone thing they have an absolute Constitional Right to anonymity when they use the internet or check out books in the library?

      YES, you fucking sheep-ass moron. They absolutely do.

      I know that even posing the question is going to be seriously unpopular, but it should be asked.

      Yes, it should. So we can know who the fucking single-digit IQs among us are.

    70. Re:I can already see ... by buswolley · · Score: 1

      The problem is.. Never stoop as low as them. Always treat an immoral enemy, morally. It shouldn't be an eye for an eye, but a learning experience by demonstrating a morally superior conduct of ourselves.

      --

      A Good Troll is better than a Bad Human.

    71. Re:I can already see ... by Shelled · · Score: 2

      Seems to me, beyond confusing multiple uses of the word 'public' (publicly owned vs. open to view) that you have this exactly backwards. As libraries are publicly owned, the public should have finally say regarding library surveillance. I'll guess that most library users wouldn't approve.

    72. Re:I can already see ... by 5KVGhost · · Score: 2

      The problem lies in having no probable cause and merely getting a listing of people who have checked out "book x". These people have done nothing wrong necessarily and therefore the government has no right to see those records. They have committed no crime. It is almost like saying that checking out that book is illegal.

      No, it's not saying that, not even "almost". The gov't isn't preventing you from checking out the book, and it isn't doing anything to you because you checked out the book. After getting "a court order or a subpoena" (per the article) the FBI gets a list of who checked out a particular book of interest to their investigation. Just like the FBI can go over to the local Borders bookstore and get a list of who bought the same book. Again, why should libraries be exempt?

    73. Re:I can already see ... by TastySiliconWafers · · Score: 1

      Actually, free speech rights are an issue here. This takes away the First Amendment right of the librarian to speak out against the unjust treatment of the patrons whose Fourth Amendment rights are being violated.

    74. Re:I can already see ... by MrFredBloggs · · Score: 1

      "It's not like they could even check them for fingerprints... "

      You`ve really been keeping up with forensics, haven't you. Heard of DNA?

    75. Re:I can already see ... by mpe · · Score: 3, Interesting

      There is a balance between free speech and responsible speech. In an oppressive government, there is certainly an interest in having anonymous speech be protected.

      There probably isn't any such thing as a non-oppressive government. Just about any government has something they'd rather was kept secret. Also governments are made up of people, there might be things these individuals do not want known or investigated.

      But in most western governments, IMO the potential for abuse of anonymous speech (e.g., false accusations) outweighs the value of anonymous speech.

      False accusations can be made without anonymity. All anonymity does is prevent the person making the accusation from being cross examined. If the accusation is false and you have freedom of speach then it can be refuted.

      In other words, you have very little fear in the United States for being prosecuted by the government for your beliefs.

      Probably best not to hold Islamic religious beliefs, Russian citizenship and visit the US to give a speach of computer security then :)

    76. Re:I can already see ... by mpe · · Score: 2

      Unfortuantely, "We the people" have allowed our Governement to become the overseers, and we have shirked our responsibility as the government's overseer.

      Thing is that most Americans don't even appear to understand this. Governments can be, like fire, good servents or bad masters.

      I have the feeling that as a whole, Americans are a bunch of spoiled children. Americans don't want to be responsible or to work. There are exceptions, but the majority seems to prefer that the government act as a parent. There is moaning and complaining, but no action is taken to make things different.

      Some of the moaning and complaining being along the line of complaining about too much government interference in some way or other at the same time demanding that government "do something" in some other area.

    77. Re:I can already see ... by mpe · · Score: 2

      Similarly, public libraries exist in part to support an educated citizenry. If citizens are afraid to check out "dangerous" books to educate themselves, we're stifling the democratic process which requires free access to information.

      If you have an entrenched ruling class, including career politicans, then an educated citizenship can be rather frightening.
      They might do things like investigating things themselves, rather than simply taking what those in government say as being correct.
      It's likely to be a bit harder to witch hunt Communism or Islam in a population which knows all about the principles of Communism or has read the Koran. Similarly claiming Iraq is a huge enemy of the world dosn't really wash with anyone who knows the recent history of that country.

    78. Re:I can already see ... by mpe · · Score: 2

      Let's say the FBI is investigating a poisoning. One of their possible suspects is known to have visited a library a few days before the murder. An agent gets a warrant and asks the librarian for a copy of the suspect's borrowing records. The records indicate that the suspect borrowed a medical text about the dosages and effects of various poisons, including the same poison used in the murder.

      Here you have a specific crime and specific suspect(s). Which is rather different from seeing who might have borrowed "bad books".

    79. Re:I can already see ... by EllisDees · · Score: 1

      They had DNA testing at the time of the writing of the bill of rights? That Ben Franklin really was one smart mofo!

      --
      -- Give me ambiguity or give me something else!
    80. Re:I can already see ... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      But therefore they also just citizens of other countries that are out enemies. So what is the difference between launching missles at enemy citizens and flying planes into buildings full of enemy citizens.

      If you think the difference is that a government is launching the missles, then you are realying too much of definitions to consider morality.

    81. Re:I can already see ... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The important thing is the freedom to say things, not how dangerous it is.

      And whether its god/constitution given or not is irrelevant - its whether morally you should be able to do something. I believe that it is immoral to try and stop someone saying something. I don't believe in god, and in dont like in a country protected by constitution. So what?

    82. Re:I can already see ... by MoneyT · · Score: 2

      For the same reason that if you ran down the street shooting people, the cops could shoot you. I'm not claiming that all this is clear cut black and white (nothing is) but you're reaching here.

      --
      T Money
      World Domination with a plastic spoon since 1984
  17. Free Speech by Jacer · · Score: 2

    "Sure you can say that, we don't mind at all! What's your name, current address, social security number, and credit history?"

    --
    --fetch daddy's blue fright wig, i must be handsome when i release my rage
    1. Re:Free Speech by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Sounds a lot like the recent election for Saddam. Sure you are free to vote, but put your name and address on the ballot.

  18. another reason to avoid libraries? by udecker · · Score: 2, Interesting

    When I called my representative about the Zoe Lofgren bill (the one that restores some fair-use and civil liberties to individuals taken away by the DMCA) I got a response that he didn't support her bill. As a representative, shouldn't that be exactly what he supports? Restoring civil liberties to those he represents?

    Soon enough, when enough of these freedoms are taken away, like the public unmonitored use of public libraries, then all of the so-called "public" institutions will be used less and less frequently by people who are concious about these things.

    In the movie Seven, there was a great hubbub about tracking the use of library card-holders' reading habits. Now it seems that it doesn't need to be kept a secret, that they can and will do it, and that you can't find out about it. That's troubling.

    1. Re:another reason to avoid libraries? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      then all of the so-called "public" institutions will be used less and less frequently by people who are concious about these things.

      Since when has this stopped the gov. from pouring money into programs and services. What do they care if anyone actually uses the libraries or gets an education as long as they can claim to have "supported" education and the library system by signing some bill or other that does next to nothing.

  19. The acronym... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Interesting

    In all the news about the USA PATRIOT Act, I had no idea it was an acronym for:
    the "Uniting and Strengthening America by Providing Appropriate Tools Required to Intercept and Obstruct Terrorism Act" (USA PATRIOT Act.) until I read the librarian guidelines. Call me s-l-o-w. I bet there is a full-time job to come up with those catchy titles. (I wonder what it pays)

    1. Re:The acronym... by Lawbeefaroni · · Score: 2

      Yeah, and I bet you also never knew it's really the USA PATRIOT ACT where ACT = "Avoiding the Constitution Totally." They love to chuckle at that last bit while they're "representing" us on Capitol Hill.

      --
      "When it rains, it pours." --Morton's Salt
  20. more about this issue by Anonymous Coward · · Score: -1, Troll

    A more thorough discussion of this controversy can be found here. I think that the only way that the issue can be resolved is the two parties have dialogue, work through constraints and differences, and then come to an agreement that works for everyone. This is the only hope for a quick resolution.

  21. hmmm... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Interesting

    I wonder why everyone is always so worried about what someone might see them doing? Are you that morally degraded that you can't do what's right when nobody is looking? And then you have the gall to complain when someone does? Come on now...grow up!

    1. Re:hmmm... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: -1, Offtopic

      ...nibbling at the flaim bait...

      (in a Yosemite Sam voice) Doooohhhhh, I hate that pesky Anonymous Coward varmint!

    2. Re:hmmm... by teamhasnoi · · Score: 2

      I find it funny that the person who always says this is an Anonymous Coward. Show yourself - unless you don't have anything to hide, of course.

    3. Re:hmmm... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "Show yourself - unless you don't have anything to hide..."

      I don't have anything to hide...so, I guess I won't show myself. lol

    4. Re:hmmm... by DeltaSigma · · Score: 1

      No, say this to him:

      I wonder why you are so worried about what someone might see you saying? Are you that morally degraded that you can't do what's right when nobody knows who you are? And then you have the gall to complain when someone else does the same? Come on now...grow up!
    5. Re:hmmm... by DeltaSigma · · Score: 1

      This one's clever...

      ...in that completely unintelligent way.

      There's many reasons that poking around people's business, be it in a private or public place, is unsettling. For one thing, such acts are indirectly signifying an inability of the american people to respect/trust their neighbors. You can't have a working, civilized, society without respect and trust.

  22. That's why by CaffeineAddict2001 · · Score: 5, Insightful

    What library's need to do is allow for anonymous checkout of books - providing the person leaves collateral of course.

    When you return the books, you get the money back - just don't forget your receipt with matching barcode.

    1. Re:That's why by mjolnir_ · · Score: 1

      Gee, adding barcodes would make it *so* much harder to track the users.

    2. Re:That's why by RealSurreal · · Score: 1

      Depends on what the collateral is. If you're only going to allow people who can afford to pay for it to borrow books you might as well give up on the concept of public libraries. Then the Feds/terrorists/uncle tom cobley et al have won etc etc etc

    3. Re:That's why by CaffeineAddict2001 · · Score: 2

      Yes, it would. The barcode is attached to the book and not the person.

      The barcode is there so the person can redeem their deposit when they return the books, and that is it. No identity involved at all.

    4. Re:That's why by Elwood+P+Dowd · · Score: 2

      Yeah, but you get the money back.

      --

      There are no trails. There are no trees out here.
    5. Re:That's why by mjolnir_ · · Score: 1

      Check out Webster's 4th and lookup "sarcasm." Anonymously, if you must.

    6. Re:That's why by RealSurreal · · Score: 1

      I was thinking more of the sort of low-income families who need to spend all their income and can't afford to put some of it aside for a month while they read a book.

    7. Re:That's why by Lawbeefaroni · · Score: 2

      What's interesting is that the dictionary doesn't really teach you how to use it. Maybe you should check out an English class.

      --
      "When it rains, it pours." --Morton's Salt
    8. Re:That's why by Lawbeefaroni · · Score: 2

      They could use a family member as collateral. That way they get the book and save a bit on upkeep while the family member is in the care of the libray. And the library could use the help dusting books for fingerprints anyway.

      --
      "When it rains, it pours." --Morton's Salt
    9. Re:That's why by CaffeineAddict2001 · · Score: 2

      I wasn't suggesting this as an exclusive way to check out books.

      Basically - it's a library "service" for those who are interested.

      You could still check out books the old fashioned way.

      Not to mention, it would help fund the library by collecting interest from the deposit money (Sure it's small, but it adds up).

    10. Re:That's why by Elwood+P+Dowd · · Score: 2

      They could use a family member as collateral. That way they get the book and save a bit on upkeep while the family member is in the care of the libray. And the library could use the help dusting books for fingerprints anyway.

      All of a sudden, anonimity doesn't sound worth it anymore...

      --

      There are no trails. There are no trees out here.
  23. Even worse than the feds bugging the library by wiggys · · Score: 1

    is the feds bugging slashdot. You ARE reading this from behind an anonymous proxy aren't you?

    --

    Sorry, but my karma just ran over your dogma.

    1. Re:Even worse than the feds bugging the library by Geekboy(Wizard) · · Score: 2

      You ARE reading this as anonymous coward aren't you? Oh, you're not? Irony is funny, except when it's not.

  24. this is something alltogether awful by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I cannot
    respect free speech

    I should be:
    an attourney General

    see more here

    1. Re:this is something alltogether awful by TomServo · · Score: 1

      I cannot:
      help myself but question my governments motivations and means

      I would make a bad:
      patriot, apparently.

  25. One solution... by Yoda2 · · Score: 5, Funny

    This is easy enough to fix - just burn all the books with questionable content. Might help to cut down on all of the mischief caused by those evil Harry Potter books.

    1. Re:One solution... by Dunark · · Score: 1

      Just wait until everything is published electronically and there are no more printed books. Then, the government can just push a button and revoke the certificates on books it doesn't like, or force you to get updates that omit the offending parts.

    2. Re:One solution... by Triv · · Score: 2

      Might help to cut down on all of the mischief caused by those evil Harry Potter books.

      Alternatively, you could just write a book about it.

      Triv

    3. Re:One solution... by Yoda2 · · Score: 2

      Crazy muggles. They just don't understand.

    4. Re:One solution... by fudgefactor7 · · Score: 1

      No, no, no! That won't work. You have to "cut the head off the chicken" (so to speak). What you need to do is burn all the people that READ those books, after all, the reader is the one that gets the crazy ideas...

      ...the above statement is extreme sarcasm, please don't freak out, ya nutjobs...

    5. Re:One solution... by TibbonZero · · Score: 2

      That just sent chills up my spine. Perhaps they will start burning the books too. Perhaps Firefighters will become more important in the future that they were around 9-11... Truely scary.
      What's next, venomous dogs that hunt us down? I guess Sony's Aibo is working on that.
      A media that sensationalizes everything? Totally blows everything out of proportion, and even misreports things? Hmm, well we have CNN.com.
      This is truely starting the scare me. I wonder how long until the burn the constituion...

      --
      Tibbon
      tibbon.com
  26. A Good Thing by fungus · · Score: 2, Funny

    Security first.

    We just cannot let libraries protect terrorits. Imagine if a big "mushroom cloud" were to blow Washington, and we later found out that the author of this crime once borrowed a nuclear science book!

    Science books and books with a bias against the US should also be banned. Anyone saying the opposite is against the Homeland Security!!

    1. Re:A Good Thing by Coltman · · Score: 1

      Heaven forbids...that that mushroom cloud could have been prevented by someone who read that same book and disarmed the fraggin thing. ignorance is only bliss if you know when to be ignorant.

      --
      - my $.02? - you can't have it...it's all I have!!
    2. Re:A Good Thing by k3v0 · · Score: 2, Interesting

      I really disagree with most forms of patriotism, as they tend to be excuses to descriminate against some people for some silly reason. If the US banned everything with a bias against the US, the US would be no different than any other freedom restricting regime, like China. china seems nice, I'm sure they have less crime and they have plenty of cheap movies and software, but I prefer to have freedom

    3. Re:A Good Thing by jalet · · Score: 1

      Are you a complete stupid asshole or was it a joke ?

      --
      Votez ecolo : Chiez dans l'urne !
    4. Re:A Good Thing by TomServo · · Score: 1

      Never done this note to mods thing before, but sarcasm != troll.

    5. Re:A Good Thing by fungus · · Score: 2

      Jamais j'aurais cru que quelqu'un puisse prendre ce message au sérieux.

      Bien sur que c'était du sarcasme!

    6. Re:A Good Thing by jalet · · Score: 1

      Ah, sait on jamais ?!?!
      Tu sais, quand on regarde leur president...

      --
      Votez ecolo : Chiez dans l'urne !
  27. Understandable by swordgeek · · Score: 3, Insightful

    This is a questionable practice. It's nasty, and more than a bit frightening.

    BUT, it's fairly understandable, as are its counterparts.

    If an investigation into a robbery suspect led to a gun shop, should the gun shop owner be able to phone up the suspect and say, "Hey--the cops were asking after you."

    Due to the nature of crime (criminals don't want to get caught!), the cops have to have a reasonable opportunity to work quietly, and in private. After an investigation has been concluded, THEN this stuff should be made public.

    --

    "People who do stupid things with hazardous materials often die." -- Jim Davidson on alt.folklore.urban
    1. Re:Understandable by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Two different cases, though.

      The robbery of a gun shop is an actual crime, with physical evidence, witnesses, and stolen property.

      Borrowing books from the library on questionable subjects isn't technically illegal (yet). There is no theft and no crime has been committed. It's more of a "don't read anything the govenmnent doesn't approve of". Couple that with the concept of not knowing your accusers or what you're guilty of and things like the "Patriot" Act...

      Oh, and you realy think the government will release everything after the fact? Right.

    2. Re:Understandable by dirtydog · · Score: 1

      Your example is a false analogy. A gun shop owner calling up a client to inform him of a federal subpoena being served is not at all like a librarian informing clients that ALL access to library material is being monitored. This is about the FBI fishing for leads by monitoring EVERYONE. In your case, the FBI is FOLLOWING a lead by trying to find out who purchased a particular weapon.

    3. Re:Understandable by schon · · Score: 2

      If an investigation into a robbery suspect led to a gun shop, should the gun shop owner be able to phone up the suspect and "Hey--the cops were asking after you."

      I don't know about you, but I've never seen anyone hold up a store by pointing a copy of "Crime and Punishment" at them.

    4. Re:Understandable by CrystalFalcon · · Score: 2

      You have a fairly strange definition of "crime".

      When it is criminal to read about abortion (but books are still available due to freedom-of-press laws that haven't been changed yet), will you have the same general attitude towards criminals that read about abortion in public libraries?

      Or would you see a line between which people the government has a right to call criminals, and for which people the gov't would not have that right?

      Just because something is a crime, doesn't mean it is necessarily wrong. Especially not in a historic perspective. (And vice versa: just because something is legal - or even mandated - doesn't mean it's necessarily right.)

  28. Ashcroft is the reincarnation of McArthy? by afidel · · Score: 5, Interesting

    Yep, pretty much seems that way. Back to the FBI's old tricks like illegally monitoring the communciations of anyone they care to target. Back in McArthy's day it actually cost time and manpower so it was limited to famous,dangerous, or radical people. Today information tracking is so rediculously cheap that they can feasibly monitor some large percentage of the populations communications and even if they don't have the bandwidth to process it all they can store it for future use. I'm really not a conspiracy nut, but I do like to raise my voice when I see our liberties being needlessly trampled. I don't see my life becoming any more secure because the government can more easily monitor citizens conversations, they have and always will have the power to target criminals, now they are just grabbing for the power to use their tools against anyone. Maybe I should move to Canada, a federal judge there just threw out the evidence against 9 defendants that were caught importing 49Kg of heroin because he thought the RCMP had played too loose with their wiretap applications.

    --
    There are 4 boxes to use in the defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, ammo. Use in that order. Starting now.
    1. Re:Ashcroft is the reincarnation of McArthy? by binaryDigit · · Score: 3, Informative

      Today information tracking is so rediculously cheap

      er, no. It's quite expensive because of the sheer volume of data that needs to be tracked. And no, just stuffing it away for "future" perusal is not a viable option. Your assuming that either the information flow will decrease, or the methods used will increase productivity as a rate significantly higher than the data being captured. Until that happens, any saved (and my god this would be a massive amount) could only be used to go back and look for specific individuals, vs retro-processing.

    2. Re:Ashcroft is the reincarnation of McArthy? by afidel · · Score: 1

      going back and processing all data on an individual is exactly what I had in mind. We already do it to some extent with respect to prominant politicians. Notice how the fact that Clinton smoked some pot and Bush used to drink were brought up during their campaigns. How much effect does a little bit of substance use/abuse during their teens/early twenties effect men old enough to be president? The wildness of youth is exactly why the forefathers set a minimum age to hold office. If we already use youthfull indescression against people imagine what you could do with complete information coverage.

      --
      There are 4 boxes to use in the defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, ammo. Use in that order. Starting now.
    3. Re:Ashcroft is the reincarnation of McArthy? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      er, no. It's quite expensive because of the sheer volume of data that needs to be tracked.

      How so? They only do a certain amount of random monitoring, most starts with a lead of some kind. If they do encounter something interesting by chance then they can pursue the relevant leads from there. Otherwise they move along to something more fruitful.

      Sure, there's the whole "safety in numbers" aspect, but also consider that gap is closing as use of technology in law enforcement increases.

  29. Wokas ! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: -1, Offtopic

    Mgfpft zrrlsptz.
    Ulg.

  30. In Canada ... by RebelTycoon · · Score: 2, Interesting

    We don't have no the FBI... We have the RCMP, and its unfortunate, but they waste time tracking who borrows certain books when they SHOULD BE investigating our Prime Minister and the millions of tax dollars that got funnelled to friendly Liberal supporters.

    The legacy of our PM is broken promises... Case and point... GST and Free Trade...

    NAPMFQ

    --

    Tournament Management Online &

    1. Re:In Canada ... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      We DO have FBI in Canada... The USA has FBI agents in every province of Canada. Officially, they are just here to keep in touch with the RCMP.

    2. Re:In Canada ... by Dr+Caleb · · Score: 2
      We DO have FBI in Canada...

      The Anon Poster is correct. As well as the NSA and CIA. Mostly in Ottawa, Cornwall, Masset, Alert; Centers for SIGINT.

      Mostly just for intellegence sharing. They have no real authority.

      --
      "History doesn't repeat itself, but it does rhyme." Mark Twain
  31. New world people, get used to it by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Things change, you should understand that. You have witnessed huge changes. Change should be easy for you to accept.

    Why would a library provide subversive reading material?

    Is it entrapment?

  32. Reminds me of a scene... by dachshund · · Score: 5, Interesting
    I recall a scene in David Fincher's Se7en in which the investigators surreptitiously visit a friend at the FBI in order to obtain library records. The scene sticks out in my mind because I remember how much trouble they had to go to: even the FBI was scared to admit that they had access to such information, and as a result the whole process is conducted on the sly-- the FBI man is clearly terrified that someone'll find out what he's up to.

    That movie came out only a few years ago, and yet the scene would probably be meaningless today. It's funny how things change, and not necessarily for the better.

    1. Re:Reminds me of a scene... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      David Fincher's Se7en

      I really enjoyed that documentary.

    2. Re:Reminds me of a scene... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      this is offtopic, but perhaps relevant to every post here:

      instead of simply making remarks such as "I really enjoyed that documentary," why don't you take the time to tell us _why_? it would be amusing and perhaps enlightening to read the reasons why you liked it, and who knows, it might even pertain to the topic at hand (crzeh FBI/library antics)!

      do your part to make slashdot deeper. type more good stuff.

      over n out.

    3. Re:Reminds me of a scene... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0, Insightful
      do your part to make slashdot deeper. type more good stuff.

      I don't know; if you made it much deeper, the kiddies might drown.

      Although maybe that's not such a bad thing...

    4. Re:Reminds me of a scene... by hyperizer · · Score: 1

      I remember thinking that scene was unrealistic, since at the time I'd just finished working as a desk clerk at a library. We were instructed never to give out circulation information to anyone, even the police. I don't know what the director would have done if they'd had a warrant, though. (This was '93-'95.)

  33. universities track logins by jazzbotley · · Score: 5, Informative

    I work at a University computer department. A lot of my work goes into writing/maintaining the software that provides a three-way cross between client IP address, username, and timestamp for every use of our computer facilities (except staff and faculty workstations). These logs are regularly used as evidence in court and in pre-trial proceedings. IANAL, and I don't actually interface with the lawyers, but my buddies in the security group are constantly reviewing the login records at the behest of xxAA or FBI or whatever (they always play the cloak and dagger routine -- "need to know only!" *rolls the eyes*). Every login is preceded by "By clicking the button you agree to these policies" with a URL to the pages and pages of dos and don'ts, or else published everywhere around these workstations as dead tree reminders of "acceptable use". I can't speak for public libraries, but here at University we try to be lenient and let the students off with a "never do that again!" If they cower and tremble and repent of their evil filesharing ways, we let them off. Otherwise, they get a permanent "incident report" filed on their student record and get to take their song and dance to the VP of student affairs.

    Which brings me to the point of, where's the right to privacy? Waived at the door, I guess, since apparently the presupposition is that by using your authentication to log in to these systems, you've agreed that you've read all these policies and have agreed to all these potential remedies against your violation of these policies. Any lawyers out there know if that holds water?

    --
    "Limited government" will always exceed its bounds

    1. Re:universities track logins by SideshowBob · · Score: 4, Interesting

      And I bet your Uni charges every student a few hundred bucks per year "computing resources fee" to pay for those computer labs, so there is no way to opt out of the system.

    2. Re:universities track logins by terrymr · · Score: 2

      This is also exactly the kind of practice which the 9th circuit described as an illegal wiretap operation. It may be worth taking care as to who you tell about these practices.

    3. Re:universities track logins by extra88 · · Score: 2

      What a shitty job, going through such logs. I can see some of the appeal, not for copyright nonsense but criminal acts like threatening people or vandalizing computer systems.

      What if the student claims they forgot to logoff a public computer and it must have been someone who sat down after them?

      Is it a public or private university? If private, they can do pretty much whatever they want. A public university could lose a court battle over something like this, depending on how much snooping was done. It may also depend on the state and what privacy-related laws it has. Actually, they probably wouldn't lose a case now, not with paranoia in this country up by an order of magnatude.

    4. Re:universities track logins by Fencepost · · Score: 2
      Every login is preceded by "By clicking the button you agree to these policies" with a URL to the pages and pages of dos and don'ts, or else published everywhere around these workstations as dead tree reminders of "acceptable use".

      Are those URLs clickable without agreeing to them before seeing them, or is the university playing a game of "To use this system, you must agree to certain conditions, details of which you will receive after you agree?"

      --
      fencepost
      just a little off
    5. Re:universities track logins by D_Gr8_BoB · · Score: 2

      This sort of shit is why you should read the computer use policy of a university before deciding to enroll. I also work for IT at a university, and I spend a fair amount of time making sure that no one including us has any more private information about people than is absolutely necessary. There are still schools out there determined not to take an authoritarian view of computing, and it's worth your time to track one down.

    6. Re:universities track logins by catfood · · Score: 2

      "Regularly used as evidence in court"? How often do you get lawsuits and prosecutions at this university? It seems that this should be something that happens every year or two, max. I suppose that would be "regular" too but I get the impression you mean it happens frequently. What's up with that?

    7. Re:universities track logins by jazzbotley · · Score: 1

      *ah hem* Yeah, I got a little carried away with the verbage there. regularly used as evidence in hindsight should read has been known to be used as evidence, from time to time. Oh, there it is! I see it! The preview button. Dang it!

    8. Re:universities track logins by catfood · · Score: 2

      Well, "once every 17 years" would qualify as "regular" too. You're good, man.

  34. amen brother! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: -1, Troll

    this is the best post i've read all year.

    on an unrelated note, does anyone know what happened to jon katz? was he finally arrested for pedophilia?

    just wondering...

  35. get to the polls by Anonymous Coward · · Score: -1, Offtopic

    I'd like to ask everyone to remember to get to the polls today and put in a straight ticket vote for Republicans. Send representatives to Washington who will work with the president. Also, if you're in Michigan, make sure that Dick Posthumus is our next governor and not Granholm.

    Thank-you

  36. Let me tell you about the FBI by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0


    They don't have to follow rules.

    They came and confiscated my computers over some little shit. What can you do? Resist? They will fuck your world up so fast, you won't know what happened.

    They can do WHATEVER they want. And they don't have to tell anyone. They don't follow rules.

    1. Re:Let me tell you about the FBI by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      They came and confiscated my computers

      So how, exactly are you posting to /.? Telepathy?

    2. Re:Let me tell you about the FBI by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Well that should teach you from hoarding copious amounts of child pornography. Or was it for being a "hacker", toughguy? What, did your Mother let you dual-boot her computer between Windows98 and Linux when she isn't home?

  37. Libraries? by wolf- · · Score: 4, Interesting

    When I was young, it was a great thing to go to the library once a week, get a stack of books, and read them through in the next 7 days. The star wars fiction series, Hardy Boys, Star Trek, The Odessey...

    College libraries were awesome places. Places to hang out, maybe study a bit, meet young ladies.

    Then I moved to Fayetteville, Georgia. Where the publicly funded library is run by the white hair Gestapo. The collection of books there is lacking. So you say, donate some? I did! I offered to donate 8 cases of books. Computer programming manuals, CS theory, even some copies of books I'v written or edited. Not 30 year old books, but fresh books. Books that a young teenager may not be able to afford to buy, but interested in reading. The offer was refused. No strings attached, just take them. No.

    Would the old bags in Fayetteville let you know whats going on? No. Odds are THEY'LL call the FBI first.

    Ok, thats my rant. If you are in the atlanta area, its worth the drive to the Georgia Tech library downtown if you really are looking for information. Georgia State's isn't too bad off either.

    --
    ----- LoboSoft specializes in Digital Language Lab
    1. Re:Libraries? by jazman_777 · · Score: 2, Funny
      The star wars fiction series

      Rebel Terrorist How-To Manuals.

      --
      Slashdot: Failed Car Analogies. Amateur Lawyering. Anecdote Battles.
    2. Re:Libraries? by Dannon · · Score: 1

      I really only checked out books from the Fayetteville library once, one summer when they were moving to a new building and they were letting folks check out books by the armload, for an extended period of time, just so they'd have less to move.

      I filled the back seat of my car with teenage-entertainment sci-fi and fantasy.

      For the most part, though, I visited the PTC library when I was growing up.

      And, yes, the Georgia Tech library is tops.

      --
      Good judgment comes from experience.
      Experience comes from bad judgment.
  38. So what? by Call+Me+Black+Cloud · · Score: 0, Troll

    This is "news for nerds"? It may be important to discuss in the big scheme of things but let EFF run their own discussion boards on these topics. I suppose the criminal nerds and terrorist nerds have reason to be concerned but this is off topic for the average nerd.

    It's time to implement modding of topics. Crap (like "version 0.1001a of 'abc' has been released!") can be shunted off to the dead pool for those that care and marginal topics that may have been rejected otherwise could get voted to the front page.

    That's right, I'm not posting anon...but I know the cowards will come out to respond.

    1. Re:So what? by Glanz · · Score: 0, Flamebait

      Red-Neck asshole cowards like you who are willing to sell off their rights and the rights of those around them with their uneducated indifference makes me very happy that I am not an American.

      --
      Rien n'est plus beau que le creux du 0.
    2. Re:So what? by SnakeStu · · Score: 2
      ...but I know the cowards will come out to respond.

      Who's the greater coward, the one who won't stand up for what's right even if a problem doesn't affect him directly, or one who will speak out against all evil?

      I suppose the criminal nerds and terrorist nerds have reason to be concerned but this is off topic for the average nerd.

      Nice troll, but I'll assume that even you aren't stupid enough to actually believe this only affects criminals and terrorists. It affects the very system and society that has presumably provided you with safety and comfort since you were born. (I am, admittedly, making some assumptions regarding your history since you have the ability to post flamebait here -- you're apparently not living in a cardboard box in a country lacking any significant technology infrastructure, sanitation, etc.)

      --
      No Laughing Allowed!
    3. Re:So what? by Call+Me+Black+Cloud · · Score: 0, Flamebait

      Who's the greater coward, the one who won't stand up for what's right even if a problem doesn't affect him directly, or one who will speak out against all evil?

      Oh Stu...does this mean you're going around the workplace railing against this? At home? On the subway? Every waking moment? Of course not. If you read my post the point is I believe this is not the place to discuss it.

      I'll assume that even you aren't stupid enough to actually believe this only affects criminals and terrorists.

      So, how does it affect you, the system, or the society? What's next, Ma Bell won't be able to make a public announcement when they put a wiretap on a suspect? How is this different?

    4. Re:So what? by Call+Me+Black+Cloud · · Score: 0, Offtopic

      Your name calling has proven to be an irrefutable argument. I stand humbled by your eloquence.

      ...makes me very happy that I am not an American
      Hey, we don't disagree on everything!

    5. Re:So what? by LineNoiz · · Score: 1, Troll

      I'm relatively new to /., but I don't remember ever seeing any sort of stipulation that one MUST read every article that appears on the front page. Read the topic, read the synopsis. If you don't like/care about the topic, ignore it. That's what I do whenever I see any Linux/FreeBSD/Open Source/ad nauseum posts. I don't care, so I ignore it. Do I complain that it is there? No, I just ignore it. It's not terribly difficult.

      --
      "Quotation is a serviceable substitute for wit." --Oscar Wilde
    6. Re:So what? by SnakeStu · · Score: 2
      ...does this mean you're going around the workplace railing against this? At home? On the subway? Every waking moment? Of course not. If you read my post the point is I believe this is not the place to discuss it.

      There is a concept of audience -- my home, my workplace, and the subway do not provide an appropriate audience for a variety of reasons that are specific to the particular audience in each venue. The audience here -- with over 400 comments -- has by its own actions clearly shown that Slashdot is the place to discuss it, your misguided notion to the contrary notwithstanding.

      What's next, Ma Bell won't be able to make a public announcement when they put a wiretap on a suspect? How is this different?

      Again, I'll give you the benefit of the doubt that you're not really that stupid (although you certainly play the part effectively). The proper question is not how this is different, but how is this the same? There is obviously no valid analogy between the communication model of the phone system and the communication model represented by the publishing industry, the libraries as consumers of that industry, and library patrons as end-users. (This is not to imply that I agree with your other premise regarding the validity of wiretaps or their secrecy.)

      As for how the chilling effect -- or lack thereof in the past, when we have been lucky enough to avoid it -- on research and publication would affect everything from the medical procedures used during your birth to the handling of your body after death, I will leave it to what I hope is a grain of intelligence to analyze that without playing stupid on the point further. It is fundamental enough to not warrant further comment.

      --
      No Laughing Allowed!
  39. Just like echelon by Restil · · Score: 3, Interesting

    If they want to monitor, lets give them something to monitor. Find out what books would trigger the watchful eyes, and go check out ALL of them, frequently. Have everyone else do the same. Overwhelm them with useless information. When everyone is on the list, there's no point in having a list.

    -Restil

    --
    Play with my webcams and lights here
    1. Re:Just like echelon by CVaneg · · Score: 1

      Except that just those actions alone, may constitute a valid reason for you to be on that list (at least in the eyes of some government bureaucrat).

      "Hmmm . . . clearly this guy has anti-American tendecies and wants to mess with us. Let's watch him some more."

    2. Re:Just like echelon by dvk · · Score: 1

      That has the same effect as finding crime scenes, and trying to screw them up before the police get there so they'd have harder time to catch criminals. Or calling police tips hotline with bogus crap. If that isn't against the law now, it should be. Just like what you are proposing.
      -DVK (who thinks that watching a plane hit WTC2 *directly* above your head after being inside WTC1 during the first hit might have changed your mind about who the bad guys are. Too bad it had to be me, who already knew that it's terrorists we need to direct the energy against, not the US govt).

      --
      "The right to figure things out for yourself is the only true freedom everyone shares. Go use it"-R.A.Heinlein
    3. Re:Just like echelon by Triv · · Score: 2

      Bzzzt. Try again.

      The problem with that is that it takes the books out of legitimate circulation - by constantly checking out "Mein Kampf" (or whatever) for political reasons you're depriving someone who actually WANTS to read them from doing so. It's a twisted form of self-censorship.

      Think of it this way - if the FBI paid someone to keep a library's single copy of something controversial checked out don't you think we'd bitch and moan? You're proposing the same thing. It's not good if used by us and bad if used by the feds.

      Triv

    4. Re:Just like echelon by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
      i am honestly sorry that you had to witness such a horrific act, but you cannot compare disruption of monitoring library checkouts with the 9/11 incidents or disturbing a crime scene.

      the fiends who hijacked and crashed the airliners weren't u.s. citizens, and nothing about their behavior points towards using library books as fuel for either their hatred or actions. all the regs in the world won't bring the poor souls who died on september 11 back, but how on earth does taking away the rights of speech, privacy, due process, search and seizure protection, free association, and (ultimately) dissent preserve any of spirit that make america worth defending in the first place? what would be left? freedom to shop and own a gun?

      i can think of plenty of reasons the idea of checking out flagged titles wouldn't work to restore liberty, but it would certainly do much less damage than allowing the fbi to monitor everyone who checks out kafka, ralph ellison, texts on toxicology or a chemistry book.

    5. Re:Just like echelon by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful
      Live Free or Die. Give me liberty or give me death.

      It sounds like you got a glimpse of what "die" is all about, that's it's a real possibility, and you are now having second thoughts. The romantic words are too impractical and unrealistic: It is better to be a slave to a politician, than face death.

      What you forgot is that they still can't save you. You're going to die, all your children are going to die, everyone you ever loved or known is going to die, and nobody can ever, or will ever, be able to do anything about it. Even signing your life over to the state, won't stop Time.

      So enjoy the life you have, and make it good. And one of the most enjoyable things in life, is to give a big Fuck You to people who don't want life to be enjoyed.

      So the big question is: are the feds an example of those people? Are they really trying to bring justice to the world, or are they looking for new powers to abuse for personal ambitions? When I look at history, I know that it has been a long, long time since there were honest people in that level of government. The probability that the top-level decision makers want to protect you from another plane (and have no other agenda), is about as bad as your chances of having a winning lottery ticket. Learn from history, dude.

  40. FBI game by Not+One+Of+Us · · Score: 1

    I think I'll go check out a bunch of books on explosives and nuclear weapons for a month just to fuck with them.

    1. Re:FBI game by brettlbecker · · Score: 1

      what if every regular slashdotter did exactly that? What if we all went out to our libraries and checked out books on explosives and power plants and the Koran and all...? If everyone did it, it seems to me it might really show how ridiculous this is. And it would be a wonderful show of protest. I'm all for it.

      --
      "We must still have chaos within in order to be able to give birth to a dancing star." --Friedrich Nietzsche
    2. Re:FBI game by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Na, we'd just become the majority in the prisons.
      The governement wouldn't think anything of it to throw 20k people in jail. Second thought, there's so many people in jail in the US already, we'd just be another minority group.

    3. Re:FBI game by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      No, they'd just think that Slashdot is a terrorist organization!

  41. I am waiting... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: -1, Flamebait

    for Bush to start the CIA or Republican Kidz groups. Hand out some nice guns^h^h^h^hletter openers and uniforms.

  42. I know this sounds harsh... by cr@ckwhore · · Score: 2

    Simple solution... don't use public libraries. Don't forget to send a big thank-you note to your congressman.

    --
    Skiers and Riders -- http://www.snowjournal.com
    1. Re:I know this sounds harsh... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Other than university libraries, are there private member's-only libraries?

    2. Re:I know this sounds harsh... by cr@ckwhore · · Score: 2

      I know you were probably being sarcastic, but you know... thats not a half-bad idea.

      --csb

      --
      Skiers and Riders -- http://www.snowjournal.com
  43. Congratulations by Karamchand · · Score: 1

    Congratulations to the United States of America, the cradle of world's freedom and civil rights!
    It was nice, it got boring, it gets annoying.

    1. Re:Congratulations by Stoutlimb · · Score: 2

      This hipocricy is some of the reason why so many people hate the USA. On one hand you stand up for all these wonderful human rights and ideals, and then you guys seem to think that gives you the freedom to destroy these rights willy nilly.

      Freedom of speech: See above thread. See DMCA. See just about anything else George Bush has done recently.

      Democracy: Your 2 party (2 sides of the same coin) system is one of the most corrupt in the world. There's not much difference in Republican or Democrat, either way, some rich fuck will get in.

      Right to bear arms: Look at the gun restrictions every state passes. You don't even have that anymore.

      Equality of the sexes: I don't even know where to begin. USA style feminism set back women a hundred years.

      Equality of races: Your entire country is one big slow-motion race riot. Try driving a nice car if you have dark skin. At least Indians aren't much of a problem because you've killed most of them already. Bastards. Basically if you're not white, you're FUCKED.

      Gay rights: Unless you live in a gay ghetto like San Francisco, you're fucked.

      Freedom to pursue happiness: Your governemnt and society pushes down poor people so badly, that they never have a chance to break out of it. And if you're poor, and you get sick, and you live in the USA, you're FUCKED.

      Freedom to work: Government protection of workers is almost nil, and your unions are so corrupt they just forgot to rename themselves as "mafia". If you don't believe this, check into the Teamster's Union one of these days.

      Freedom of Religion: Unless you're one one of the few state-sanctioned religions, you're pretty much screwed. You will be monitored.

      Nice environment: Has your president done one single good thing to offset the many bad environmental things he's done already?

      Peaceful country: I don't think there is any other mondern country that has had as many wars and foreign incursions as the USA. Not even the USSR. Your disregard for non-americans is legendary. I'm really surprised that it took till 2001 for someone to give the USA a black eye. By how you carry on, it should have happened decades ago.

      You, the USA, SUCK. At least now with your current president, he's too dumb to keep up the illusions. Nobody else will fix problems for you, it's time you stood up and fixed your own damn country. The kind of posts I've seen on Slashdot remind me more of an oppressive dictatorship than the beacon of democracy.

      It's only in your minds that the US was ever a free country. Your government has just been the best at fooling you.

  44. Slashdot readers = Librarians by mattyohe · · Score: 2, Funny

    With the influx of the library/patriot act stories on slashdot lately, im begining to think most of the readers are old, cranky, librarians.

    --
    - what is the definition of simultanagnosia?! I've been meaning to look it up!
    1. Re:Slashdot readers = Librarians by abesottedphoenix · · Score: 1

      I am not old, nor cranky, I am but a simple LIS Grad Student. However, I would agree that there are way more library stories than there once were (even if they are the same old rehashed crap.) My proposition would be that since you info sci and comp sci folks are mostly male and paid more than us mostly chick mostly poor library folk, that you all throw a party. A great mingling of the Comp Sci / Lib Sci woefully underserviced populations. A great geek gathering! We're all socially inept, it could work...

    2. Re:Slashdot readers = Librarians by blisspix · · Score: 1

      why thanks for your astute observation of my profession.

      unless of course, you were being witty.

      I for one, am neither old, nor cranky, though I do occasionally feel the urge to shhhh people who use mobile phones in the library.

  45. Irony by caseyc · · Score: 2, Interesting

    The funny thing about this is that there is currently a public service announcement being aired now (I'm not sure which networks are carrying it. I do know, however, that the television station here at my school has been airing it every now and then) produced by a group that has some involvement with our government, that shows just this sort of thing happening, implied by context that it's "fictional". A sort of what-if scenario, reminding us of our supposed freedom.

    What it involves is a kid asking a librarian for help finding some books. She explains that they don't have those books anymore, then guys in suits appear and presumably bust his inquisitive ass.

    What's my point? I don't know. I just think it's a little bit creepy, with them saying that we should be glad to be American because shit like that doesn't happen, when in fact it clearly can and most likely does happen! The content of the ad does seem absurd: a kid getting hassled for just trying to read some books. But, it also seems like it's happening, so the fact that this ad lies to us about that is probably more absurd.

    1. Re:Irony by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Those ad campaigns are not meant to be taken as fictional, they're deliberately related to what's happening to our freedoms now. You obviously completely misunderstood the ad, because the exact reason they're there is because it's happening. It's an attempt to show the masses what's going to happen to our country if we don't try to prevent these sort of things from continuing.

    2. Re:Irony by caseyc · · Score: 1

      Who's paying for the ads, in that case? Why would our government be interested in making us aware of the freedoms they are taking away from us? I'm sorry, I don't follow.

    3. Re:Irony by caseyc · · Score: 1

      Check it out on the Ad Council's web site. It's the "Library" one (duh).

  46. Mass Monitoring for "Security" made simple. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Interesting

    > What do they really expect to find? They already
    > have shown they have enough information, but
    > their problem is a lack of digestion and comprehention.

    I'd expect that they run your reading list against the following algorithm:
    * If you read at least two "radical" books like "Blueprint for Black Power"
    * And you read the Koran
    * Then you are likely are guilty of the thought crime of "Thought Terrorist" so you need to be watched.
    * If you are found to consort with others who have committed "Thought Terrorism"
    * Then you and your consorts must be brought in for "questioning" until you confess your guilt or "prove" your innocense. It's not "innocent 'till proven guilty" since they already have "proof" that you and your consorts have engaged in "Thought Terrorism".

    It's quite an effective strategy to deal with "underable elements". The "beauty" of it is that much of it can be automated and using Bayesian Filtering it can be made more accurate over time. There may be some false positives, but who cares? It's "for the greater good" and "we all have to make sacrifices to stop 'Terrorism'".

    *shiver*

    1. Re:Mass Monitoring for "Security" made simple. by dnoyeb · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Considering I live in Detroit and have many friends from that side of the world I suppose I get another "X".

      Does my christianity vindicate me?

      Its just that people are not legallay prosecuted so much anymore as they are prosecuted in a marketing fashion.

      For instance, so may people still think OJ was "obviously" guilty, but fail to point out any legitimate evidence to support that claim. He is basically culturally guilty at this point. Regardless to his guilt or not I like to make sensical arguements. This is not the way of the times.

      I am concerned.

    2. Re:Mass Monitoring for "Security" made simple. by Xtraneous · · Score: 2

      I have not been to DPL lately (for all you non-`troiters, dpl=Detroit Public Library") and the last time that I was there they used a non-computer system for check in and check out. Wouldn't that type of "non-automated" system totally foil and piss off the FBI?

      --
      .noitacidem deen uoy siht daer nac uoy fI
    3. Re:Mass Monitoring for "Security" made simple. by Qrlx · · Score: 1

      I have not been to DPL lately (for all you non-`troiters, dpl=Detroit Public Library")

      Whew!!! for a second there I thought my business model was under attack again!!

      Signed,
      Steve Ballmer

    4. Re:Mass Monitoring for "Security" made simple. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
      It's quite an effective strategy to deal with "underable elements". The "beauty" of it is that much of it can be automated and using Bayesian Filtering it can be made more accurate over time.

      You're more correct than possibly you even realize - the Echelon network uses similar techniques. When I was interviewed for my current job in what was formally UK military research a department (not the one I ended up in) showed me some software they had developed that scanned USENET in bulk and used some pretty advanced filtering and matching algorithms (some bayesian iirc) to extract "hit phrases". The guy who showed me this mentioned Echelon several times. He never confirmed if it was used in that network or not (it's almost certainly need to know) but he clearly suspected it was and it wouldn't surprise me at all if he was right.

      Of course, stuff like this generates vast quantities of information, but there are soo many false positives with this kind of thing that the effort required to act on every single one is phenomenal - it sounds great in theory, but let me know when the first person is arrested after being caught by information filtering like this.

    5. Re:Mass Monitoring for "Security" made simple. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yeah, and the beauty of the system as it stands, they can make that a felony and effectively take away the right to vote those that are against the system.

      Great, huh?

  47. What is the issue? by f97tosc · · Score: 3, Interesting

    Is it not reasonable that the FBI, if it gets a court order, can bug a computer or a telephone? Is ./ really against bugging in any situation?

    If such power is misused then it is cause of great convern, but the article provides no evidence that this is the case.

    The author also seems upset that the library staff is not telling him. Well, it is pretty obvious that if you are going to bug something you can't tell the world what you are doing.

    Tor

    1. Re:What is the issue? by Arcaeris · · Score: 1

      /. (or rather, /.ers) is/are against bugging, I would say, when it violates civil liberties or infringes on current laws (which this does).

      This ./ or "bizarro slashdot" (might just be that extreme. Their readers also are all black and breathe water, as I hear it.

    2. Re:What is the issue? by Loki_1929 · · Score: 3, Informative

      " Is it not reasonable that the FBI, if it gets a court order, can bug a computer or a telephone? Is ./ really against bugging in any situation?"

      Of course we're not against law enforcement monitoring communications between individuals who are under investigation so long as they show just cause to a judge and receive the appropriate warrents. The main problem I have with this is that what you read is very close to what you think. I don't believe that our government has the right to tell us which books are ok, nor do I believe they have the right to judge what we read or think. It's absolutely impossible that reading something can lead to imminent danger for yourself or others. You might use knowledge gained from a book to do harm to yourself or others, but that's a decision not affected by what you've read. If you believe it's ok for the government to look into what you read, what do you think about the government surveilling your thoughts as well? Think that's silly? NASA doesn't seem to think so.

      "If such power is misused then it is cause of great convern, but the article provides no evidence that this is the case."

      Quite alright, I'll provide the much-anticipated evidence. The FBI began its campaign of illegal monitoring and other abuses back in the 1960's during the civil rights movements. Organizations such as SNCC were routinely infiltrated by FBI agents while many of the leaders were being bugged and had their phones tapped; most of it without even so much as a warrant. The abuses continued until the 1970's when major restrictions were put in place on the FBI's domestic spying capabilities. The culmination of these efforts was the 1974 Privacy Act. (back then, the names of laws weren't usually misleading like they are now). What's been going on lately? Well, just recently, the FISA court (secretive court created to deal with foreign intelligence gathering on US soil), in an unprecidented move, blasted the FBI publicly for abuse of the FISA act, lying to the FISA court about evidence and such, and a whole host of other things. They even barred one agent from ever again appearing before the court due to his consistantly inaccurate depositions and testimony before the court.

      What's my point? The FBI has, for the last 40 some-odd years shown a constant disregard for laws and civil liberties, as well as the Constitutionally-protected rights of citizens; especially with regard to matters of free speech. The evidence against the FBI is very damning, and the FISA court's anger with the FBI clearly shows they have no intention of staying within the limits of the law, even now. Now, we're giving the FBI more powers of surveillance? The USA PATRIOT act basically removed all the restrictions placed upon the FBI in the 1970's, and gave them a whole host of new powers. Did you know they can now look through your financial and banking information without so much as a visit to a courthouse? The book-bugging escapade appears as though it'll require judges to get rubber stamps made up just for the occasion. The fact that the entire process is secretive is even more frightening. As was said in a recent court ruling, "democracies die behind closed doors." But like I said, I don't think they should be able to monitor what you or I read anyway, so this is all moot.

      "Well, it is pretty obvious that if you are going to bug something you can't tell the world what you are doing."

      While this is correct, we also assume that when law enforcement takes an action, especially one which has the potential for massive abuse, there's going to be some kind of oversight. The USA PATRIOT act removes virtually all oversight, granting the FBI unprecidented free reign to spy on Americans.

      I don't know about you, but I really don't want my government spying on me.

      If anyone's interested in a little honesty-in-politics, we should rename the "war on terrorism" to "The War on Freedom and the Average Citizen", and then we should rename the USA PATRIOT act to the "Dividing and Frightening America by Providing Inappropriate Tools Required to Intercept and Obstruct Freedom Act". Hmm, DFAPITRIOFA - perhaps not the best acronym, but certainly more accurate. USA PATRIOT act... What's patriotic about shredding the US Constitution?

      --
      -- "Government is the great fiction through which everybody endeavors to live at the expense of everybody else."
  48. See Also by devnullkac · · Score: 3, Informative

    See also the article posted in September on this topic

    --
    What do you mean they cut the power? How can they cut the power, man? They're animals!
  49. Absolutely outrageous!! by bmetzler · · Score: 1, Troll
    This has got to be the most outrageous complaint I've seen on /. yet. I fully support granting the FBI every single possible thing they might need to protect me. If they need to convertly monitor public computers to protect me from Al-Quida, then I am in full support of it.

    Why are Americans so bent on protecting criminals? I don't understand. I want my liberties protected by giving the FBI every opportunity it needs to protect me.

    -Brent
    1. Re:Absolutely outrageous!! by WildBeast · · Score: 2

      You're from a Muslim country, aren't ya?

    2. Re:Absolutely outrageous!! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: -1

      That'll be a +5 Troll then.

    3. Re:Absolutely outrageous!! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I would really like to get hold of stuff the scoring guy is smoking.

    4. Re:Absolutely outrageous!! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Here's a novel idea...

      Protect yourself!!!!!! Your government is not here to protect you. If you don't believe me, then refer to Benjamin Franklins works.

      Those who trade security for liberty deserve NEITHER security nor liberty.

    5. Re:Absolutely outrageous!! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You know this might have been ment as scarcasim.

      If not, I suggest the poster start taking some tips from the 911 trolls.

    6. Re:Absolutely outrageous!! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0


      The best way the FBI can protect you is to arrest the folks who drafted the Patriot Act.


      Yeah, Qaeda is a concern, but now that someone is paying attention, as opposed to pre 911 when bush and co were obsessing over star wars, it's nothing for a citizen to lose sleep over.


      otoh, the restriction of our freedoms is. today it's qaeda, tomorrow, it's the kkk, next it's gays, then it's liberals.


      Think I'm kidding? Ann Coulter thinks liberals should be shot and thinks the NY times building should be bombed.


      ps: flamers who say they agree with her: Har de Har Har. very funny. ho ho.

    7. Re:Absolutely outrageous!! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      We're not protecting criminals, we're protecting ourselves from our government.

      Freedom isn't "freedom to do the right thing, assuming you first get clearance from the FBI, NSA, CIA, and BATF" but the ability to think about and speak your opinion on whatever you feel like. If I want to write a report on pipebombs, and I wanna get a book about them, I shouldn't expect someone automatically assumes me guilty of wanting to make them, and if one of my fellow students decides to blow themselves up, it's THEIR fault. People need some personal responsibility.

      Then again, if we had it, we'd be running for office ourselves instead of letting professional criminals do it.

    8. Re:Absolutely outrageous!! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
      Protect yourself!!!!!! Your government is not here to protect you. If you don't believe me, then refer to Benjamin Franklins works.

      I gunned down 4 muslims last week, burned down 3 mosques, and vandalised $1000's of Muslim owned property. Is that what you mean by protecting myself?

      Or perhaps I should let the government seek out and restrain those who are bent to destroy us?

    9. Re:Absolutely outrageous!! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "Every single possible thing they might need to protect me"

      You are willing to blindly trust a government organization to allow them to get every possible thing they -might- need to protect you? So them installing cameras inside your house, monitoring every phone call you make, and having complete and free access to your personal belongings won't bother you? I mean, after all, they -might- need those things.

      Idiot.

  50. Please change my name! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
    Considering that businesses and ISPs have to cooperate with the FBI under the Patriot Act, then Slashdot might very well be bugged too, in real time. And the Editors' couldn't tell us either.

    So the label of "Anonymous Coward" is completely misleading.

    Such misrepresentation doesn't behoove the fine folks at Slashdot. Perhaps the title should be changed, in protest. Or perhaps the business should be moved offshore.

  51. one solution by wrax · · Score: 3, Interesting

    every society on earth has had to deal with terrorists at some time or another. There is no easy way to stop the threat that someone could unleash some plague, detonate some bomb or shoot unarmed people. The solution that the US has decided on seems to be surveilance of its own citizens and of anyone new comming into the country. For right or wrong this seems to be a decision that was reached by the people that were elected in the US by the people. The American people have become used to having alot of freedoms that most other nations on earth don't give to the ir citizens, freedom of speech, freedom of the press, the right to keep and bear arms, the right to due process of law, the right to have privacy in your home. These rights are granted to all in the US, unfortunatly this also means that they get granted to people who would attack the US from within.

    Saying that your not a terrorist and that the FBI should not be monitering you doesn't work, how are the authorities supposed to know what you are thinking? What you are planning to do? Investigation seems to be a way that this can be accomplished but it means throwing away all the rights that the American people have lived so long with and have fought so hard to preserve, 2 wars and innumerable conflicts have been fought by the US to "preserve and maintain our way of life", you can't get rid of that and still call yourself an American.

    Its a dicey issue to be certian, balancing rights with the need for the authorities to protect Americans from their enemies.

    Think about it.

    1. Re:one solution by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
      "how are the authorities supposed to know what you are thinking?"

      what justification is there for them to need to know what i am *thinking* at all?

    2. Re:one solution by Blue+Stone · · Score: 1

      "Its a dicey issue to be certian, balancing rights with the need for the authorities to protect Americans from their enemies."

      I thought about it, and this came out:

      Its a dicey issue to be certian, balancing rights with the need for the "enemies" to protect Americans from their authorities.

      --
      Corporation, n. An ingenious device for obtaining individual profit without individual responsibility. - Ambrose Bierce
    3. Re:one solution by weighn · · Score: 1

      can you tell me at which point do you start to paint white crescent moons on the doors of the homes and businesses of Muslims?

      --
      Mongrel News all the news that fits and froths
    4. Re:one solution by Shelled · · Score: 2

      They achieved that sucess without internal surveillance. This has nothing to do with concrete, nationwide threat and everything to do with a goverment grow too large, powerful and militaristic after 50 years of cold war suddenly loosing the main enemy justifying the buildup.

    5. Re:one solution by Loki_1929 · · Score: 3, Insightful

      "These rights are granted to all in the US"

      They're not 'granted', we took them in several massive and very costly wars starting in the late 1700's. This is one of the problems with how people view our current government, and any government for that matter. The US government derives its power solely from the will of the goverened. Every so often, we put certain people in positions of power with the understanding that they will carry our out will. We are granted nothing by our government, our government is granted privileges and powers by us.

      "this also means that they get granted to people who would attack the US from within."

      Each person is granted certain unalienable rights by their creator. The extra rights we enjoy in the US are granted to all law-abiding citizens. Those who abuse those rights and use them in ways which infringe upon the rights of others lose some of them (ie. persons in jail). You cannot bar rights from those "who would do harm" until they've done harm or show imminent intent and ability to do so. To try to do otherwise is both futile and undermines the very principles upon which our judicial system founded. Those who do it in the name of "protecting Americans" are cowards who lack the courage and conviction to stand up for what is just.

      "how are the authorities supposed to know what you are thinking?"

      They're not, and that's why I have a problem with them monitoring what you and I are reading; it gets very close to what you're thinking. Policing thoughts is something so detestible to the senses of human freedom that it has no place beyond the depths of the Orwellian hell which we find ourselves so perilously close to experiencing first-hand.

      "2 wars and innumerable conflicts have been fought by the US to "preserve and maintain our way of life", you can't get rid of that and still call yourself an American."

      Our way of life? Are you joking? Our way of life shouldn't be even close to what we're worried about. How about our principles? How about beliefs (secular)? How about our childrens' future? How about our ideals? Our way of life can always be improved, but our ideals are just that; ideals. As for our way of life, if we stand firmly grounded in our ideals and beliefs, our way of life is intrinsically preserved. Our freedom is our strength; our courage is our protection; our ideals are the life through which we live eternally.

      I agree we need to protect ourselves from our enemy, but restricting the rights and liberties of Americans is NOT the way to do it. Nor is ubiquitous surveillence. Not only that, but none of these things will help us in the end. Most of the people who are involved in terrorist (and I use that word sparingly) plots and such against America grew up in countries that have more restrictions on freedom and more surveillance than you or I can possibly imagine. They've lived their lives bypassing security, surveillance, and other measures. Israel has security tighter that most Americans dream of, yet they must endure regular suicide bombings. Ask someone from Israel who's lost a loved one to a suicide bomber what super-tight security is good for; you'll have no shortage of people to talk to. You really think checking reading habits is going to help? Certainly checking mine doesn't help you; merely gives you more irrelevant data to sort through. Aside from that, just what the hell gives you the right to monitor what I read and judge whether the books I'm reading are ok?

      Most of the changes being made will do nothing to deter those who are determined to do us harm, and many of the new policies do nothing more than overwhelm authorities with data completely irrelevant to terrorism; only relevant to societal control. If you want to control what I think or control what I say, you're in for a big surprise. Myself and many like me will MUCH sooner die resisting you than let you destroy the freedoms and ideals preserved by the blood of the thousands who've defended that in which they believed and held dear. If you'd like to kill those willing and ready to defend their rights, you can start with me. To destroy the freedoms of Americans in the name of America is to disgrace our forefathers, our flag, our Constitution, and everything those things represent. To those like Ashcroft who commit these heinous acts, you are dishonoring the American government, your position, and yourself as an American. And you should know that the American people will not tolerate but so much of your totalitarianistic edicts before they rise up against you.

      Protect us from those who would do harm to America; do not "protect us" from ourselves, and do not believe for a moment that we will happily trade our freedom like candy for your bitter and distastful tyranical "protection".

      --
      -- "Government is the great fiction through which everybody endeavors to live at the expense of everybody else."
    6. Re:one solution by mpe · · Score: 2

      every society on earth has had to deal with terrorists at some time or another.

      Probably not every society and certainly to different extents

      There is no easy way to stop the threat that someone could unleash some plague, detonate some bomb or shoot unarmed people.

      Avoiding deliberatly making enemies tends to help though.

      The solution that the US has decided on seems to be surveilance of its own citizens and of anyone new comming into the country.

      Combined with bombing people all over the world, most recently in Yemen, and continuing to persue the foreign policies which make the US so disliked in the first place.

      Saying that your not a terrorist and that the FBI should not be monitering you doesn't work, how are the authorities supposed to know what you are thinking?

      Why should they have to know in the first place?

      What you are planning to do? Investigation seems to be a way that this can be accomplished but it means throwing away all the rights that the American people have lived so long with and have fought so hard to preserve,

      Investigation is not the same thing as mass surveillance (with the risk of creating a class of people not subject to surveillance.)

      Its a dicey issue to be certian, balancing rights with the need for the authorities to protect Americans from their enemies.

      How do you know that the "authorities" are not your "ememies"? The US Constitution is far more concerned with limiting the power of government than anything else.

    7. Re:one solution by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
      "preserve and maintain our way of life"

      yes, the way of life that allows you to wake up in the morning, open the windows, breathe in the fresh air, and smile for the surveillance camera.

  52. shit! I better review glibc line by line! by kharchenko · · Score: 1

    Reading the title, I thought FBI was putting back doors into the open source libraries code :) That would really make consiracy freaks happy !

  53. Laura Bush by Jasn · · Score: 3, Interesting

    I'm curious about how notable librarian Laura Bush would weigh in on the matters of the Patriot Act and such.

    1. Re:Laura Bush by brettlbecker · · Score: 1

      She wouldn't weigh in at all... she's the willing wife of an authoritarian conservative... as such she's only allowed out of the kitchen at certain times of the day and is expected, when out, to be seen and not heard. If asked, she would put on her plastic smile and just talk about how great it all is that we're Americans with such a gosh-darn respectible man for a president!

      --
      "We must still have chaos within in order to be able to give birth to a dancing star." --Friedrich Nietzsche
    2. Re:Laura Bush by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I'm curious about how notable librarian Laura Bush would weigh in

      Well, anyone stupid enough to marry the shrub probably wouldn't notice.

  54. What do you expect? by binaryDigit · · Score: 2

    Many are complaining about the fact that the librarians can't disclose the fact that a persons internet use is being monitored. Duh, what do you expect, the FBI to "tap" the computers, but then have the librarians tell every user that their activities are being monitored? Now THAT would be effective (not saying that not disclosing is effective, but disclosing would be a joke on a Monty Pythonesque level).

    Give it up folks, privacy in the information age is a dream and it's time to wake up. Everyone from the feds to that pimply faced kid next door can get into your life about as deep as they want to spend the time doing.

  55. The Irony Is... by NeuroManson · · Score: 5, Insightful

    The Ad Council spot with the tagline "Freedom. Love it. Respect it. Cherish it." or some such, where a college age guy walks into a library and asks about the book he requested. "We don't carry that book anymore." is the librarian's curt reply, "But would you mind filling out this form, with your name, address, social security number?". Said college age dude backs out cautiously, "Um, no, that's okay, thanks-", turning around to find himself facing a couple of "agents". The spot ends with "What if you didn't have the freedoms you do now?".

    And the same government that financed that Ad Council spot (naturally, who else would pay for such drivel, or require networks to air them), is doing exactly the same thing.

    --
    Just because you can mod me down, doesn't mean you're right. Shoes for industry!
    1. Re:The Irony Is... by rnelsonee · · Score: 1
      Oh, man.



      Since I was aware of these new library lasws(as are most /. readers) I seriously thought that the Ad Council was running that ad because of shit like the Patriot Act... that it was an independent group attacking recent regulation.


      Weird.

    2. Re:The Irony Is... by drdink · · Score: 2
      Please see About the Ad Council before assuming you know who funds it and how it works:

      The Ad Council is a private, non-profit organization that marshals volunteer talent from the advertising and communications industries, the facilities of the media, and the resources of the business and non-profit communities to deliver critical messages to the American public. The Ad Council produces, distributes and promotes thousands of public service campaigns on behalf of non-profit organizations and government agencies in issue areas such as improving the quality of life for children, preventive health, education, community well being, environmental preservation and strengthening families.
      And according to this page, there was no government sponsorship of this ad campaign. In fact, it was sponsored by:
      Volunteer Agencies:
      * DeVito/Verdi
      * DDB Chicago
      * Lowe
      * TBWA/Chiat/Day
      --
      Beware, Nugget is watching... See?
    3. Re:The Irony Is... by drdink · · Score: 3, Interesting

      According to a piece I heard on NPR's Morning Edition a few months ago, the library spot was made before the Patriot Act came fruition. It was discussed how ironic it was that the spot predicted the future instead of warning against the future. See my other post on sponsorship of the ad.

      --
      Beware, Nugget is watching... See?
    4. Re:The Irony Is... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      you may view the Ad Council spot at http://boss.streamos.com/real/adcouncil/cff/cff_tv _library_30_rp_v2.smi?siteid=adcouncil

    5. Re:The Irony Is... by mgbastard · · Score: 1

      The Ad Council is not financed or funded, or linked at all to the government. The Ad Council is made up of advertising agencies and related businesses doing philanthropic work, in the form of promoting public issues. (Unless you believe in goverment conspiracy control of madision avenue or such) Let's just take it for granted you can believe they are who they say they are.

      This seems to be a pretty common misconception. Maybe the Ad Council could state who they are a bit better so americans could figure it out... nah that would just waste funds earmarked for PSA's

      --
      Anyone seen my low uid? last seen 10 years ago while panning the #@$# out of Taco's 'web based discussion system'
  56. Re:So what? I'll Tell You What! by JLucien · · Score: 4, Insightful

    It's a quote that is much bandied about in this day and age, but people like you should actually give it some thought if you can. Winston Churchill gave us this gem in 1940:

    "Those who would trade a little freedom for a little security will soon find they have neither".

    That one's for you, Sunshine.

    -- Jude
    (Not a coward, and not anonymous)

    --
    Audere est Facere
  57. Experience as a current Library Network Specialist by hypermodernist · · Score: 3, Interesting

    I am a network specialist at a very large public library system in the midwest with nearly 700 public PC's. We have had cases with law enforcement asking us for our proxy logs but have never been asked to actively monitor all PC's. There have been stalking cases, and death threats sent from our PC's and in those cases the only thing that we have been able to tell law enforcement is that they were sent from "this branch".
    We definitely do not log peoples traffic nor do we have the storage space to do so. We have a snort box for intrusion detection that does only logging. We had logging enabled for http for a day and we used up all 200gb of space.

  58. Better off with Clinton or Nixon by DSL-Admin · · Score: -1, Offtopic

    We were better off with Clinton... At least he wanted to get laid... Bush is so anal, he's turning on his own countrymen. If we don't agree with his ideas, then we are terrorist... Welcome to the United (We Say So) America

  59. Generally YES by MacAndrew · · Score: 3, Informative

    Law enforcement has to have some particular reason to suspect YOU specifically before it probes through generally accepted expectations of privacy. The depth of the intrusion is propotional to the persuasiveness of the evidence. BUT NO FISHING EXPEDITIONS.

    The Patriot Act relies on a hysterical and ill-defined notion of a future terrorist threat to provide justification. This has been characteristic of many "emergency measures" in many countries over the years -- you know, we have to shut down the presses because it might cause trouble, etc. Now, it's been fairly quiet for over a year in the States -- when do you think they'll dilute the Act?

    A recent example abroad -- the Russian gov't interfered with internet and print press in the wake of the theater hostage-taking crisis. Although antiterrorism was the justification, a good portion of this appears to have been to save face for the gov't. They politely call this censorship "media restrictions." (NYT 11/2) Good precedent?

    Now, are we aiming to be more like the Russians, or more like us?

    If we go to war in Iraq, we'll see even more severe censorship than in Gulf I (when they couldn't lay hands on Peter Arnett) and who knows what sort of internal investigations looking for seditious intent. How many people here will end up on the list? (Actually, with the increased use of sniffers looking for keywords in email and postings, you probably all are on the list. ;-) Look what happened to the medical students in Florida, where even the traffic violation was a lie, disproved by videotape." Watch out for the next Eunice Stone, aided by fear.

    I am a great supporter of our government, but stop snooping in our libraries, this is pathetic.

    AMERICANS: VOTE TODAY!

    1. Re:Generally YES by mpe · · Score: 2

      Law enforcement has to have some particular reason to suspect YOU specifically before it probes through generally accepted expectations of privacy. The depth of the intrusion is propotional to the persuasiveness of the evidence. BUT NO FISHING EXPEDITIONS.

      Or at least this is the way it should work. Similarly if they want to specifically spy on you or search your private property then in theory they have to convince a judge that there is some evidence to begin with.

      The Patriot Act relies on a hysterical and ill-defined notion of a future terrorist threat to provide justification. This has been characteristic of many "emergency measures" in many countries over the years -- you know, we have to shut down the presses because it might cause trouble, etc. Now, it's been fairly quiet for over a year in the States -- when do you think they'll dilute the Act?

      Governments like to grab power a lot more than they like to give it up. Sometimes the only way to get this to happen is a revolution.

      A recent example abroad -- the Russian gov't interfered with internet and print press in the wake of the theater hostage-taking crisis. Although antiterrorism was the justification, a good portion of this appears to have been to save face for the gov't. They politely call this censorship "media restrictions."
      Now, are we aiming to be more like the Russians, or more like us?

      Do you really think the US (, British, French, German or wherever) government is any less interested in "face saving" than the Russians.
      People in power like to be portrayed as somehow superhuman and never making mistakes.

    2. Re:Generally YES by MacAndrew · · Score: 2

      Face-saving -- oh, I doubt the two gov'ts are necessarily different in wanting this, but the Russians are more ruthless in getting it. They're climbing out of a history of brutal repression, while we are descending into censorship; maybe we'll pass each other at some point, who knows?

      One of the worst things about these changes is that they're not necessary, and no one has even tried to show they would made 9/11 less likly. Rather things like the Patriot Act appear to be opportunism by groups who have wanted to do this for a long time.

      But ultimate responsibility lies with the voters -- if they care they need to show it. And I think most people support or tolerate things as they are now, and until it's too late.

  60. The real issue is warrants by adb · · Score: 2

    Details from the ALA. FBI agents no longer have to show probable cause to spy on your reading list, which means people now have every reason to be afraid of reading the "wrong" books.

  61. Till when... by r00zky · · Score: 1

    ...will the US gov. stop pissing over the freedoms of its citzens in the name of security?

    Till people find it's useless and stop voting shitheads

    --
    I'm a chainsmokin' alcoholic sociopath, so-ci-o-path
    1. Re:Till when... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      > Till people find it's useless and stop voting shitheads

      Goddammitt and I was hoping it would happen in my lifetime.

  62. Dear FBI: #@ + Informative by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    When is the FBI going to acknowledge
    Usama bin Laden's alleged connection to
    the WTC and Pentagon plane crashes (assuming that
    he was not employed by the CIA)?

    You may read the Wanted Sheet here

    Of course, the Bureau's inability to understand
    technology, explains why they have no e-mail
    address on their contact page

    Be Patriotic: Smoke American Grown Marijuana

  63. we can help by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
    do you need to keep track of the fed's activitIEs on yOUR library's network? call us.

    don't worry about if we're BiG enough to handle IT. since we we're found to be one of the Top 10 Companies of 2002(tm) on fuddle's search thingy, our hugeness is unquestionable.

    even better yet, if you want to, you can LET the feds peruse your boxes, with ONLY you & them knowing all about IT (eliminating the need for "secret" payper liesense hostage ransom stock markup scamsters). call us.

  64. Fake ID anyone? by eyeball · · Score: 5, Insightful

    The terrorists were able to falsify documents to get fake passports and drivers licenses. Library cards are by far the easiest piece of identity thing to fake. Do you really think that a terrorist that is here on an expired visa is going use his real ID (which either doesn't exist or isn't valid)?

    "Oh, looks like Chuck U. Farly checked out another copy of 'How to bow up big buildings with farm chemicals.' Where does he live? 110 Up-Yours Infidel St., New York, NY? Book him, dan-o"

    Meanwhile, somewhere on the other side of the country, little 4th grader Joey checks out 'How Power Plants Work" for a school project, and 10 minutes later the S.W.A.T. team is busting down his parent's door...

    I wonder where our government will put the concentration camps.

    -----

    --

    _______
    2B1ASK1
    1. Re:Fake ID anyone? by macdaddy357 · · Score: 5, Interesting

      In America, they are called internment camps, or Indian reservations, not concentration camps.

      --
      How ya like dat?
    2. Re:Fake ID anyone? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      New Jersey.

      Definitely, New Jersey.

    3. Re:Fake ID anyone? by eyeball · · Score: 2

      New Jersey.

      Now that you mention it, I think they might've already made their decision :)

      ----

      --

      _______
      2B1ASK1
    4. Re:Fake ID anyone? by Christianfreak · · Score: 2

      Good grief I ought to mod you down but I'll waste the points just to set the record straight on this one.

      Native Americans have every right to leave the reservations if they so desire. But on the reservation they get access to a number of free government programs, namely free medical care.

      I'm not condoning what American's did to the natives in the 1800s, and really there is no way to make that up to those people other than to try and make sure their needs are meet now. But don't spread FUD that the government is still actively oppressing them or something like that.

      --
      The Anti-Blog
    5. Re:Fake ID anyone? by macdaddy357 · · Score: 2

      Indians on reservations other than the ones running the casinos are as poor as anyone in the third world. Most don't have running water or electricity. The US government considers Indian Reservations sovereign nations when it suits them, and US subjects when it suits them. Very many Native Americans die before the age of forty, and are still persecuted and spat upon by whites. This isn't FUD, these are the facts.

      --
      How ya like dat?
  65. Election Day... by bemis · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Well -- I'm more than a little disapointed to see that (as of 2:30p CDT) There hasn't been a front page article reminding American Slashdotters to get out and vote today. With all of the politics that buzz around this site I *really* expected to log onto slashdot this morning to not only a "Hey USers, remember to vote today!" story, but also some tips about certain candidates -- etc ...

    Perhaps this isn't the right topic for this gripe, but I guess if you're going to complain about an America-centric problem like the FBI tapping your library's computer, you should at least *try* to do something about it.

    Just my two cents.
    bemis

    1. Re:Election Day... by demaria · · Score: 2

      Because the tv ads, public service announcements, radio broadcasts, newspaper articles, direct mailings, marking on calendars, and recorded phone calls from the President aren't enough to remind you...Slashdot!

    2. Re:Election Day... by MacAndrew · · Score: 2

      Well, you see, in America we don't have to be reminded to vote.

      Most of us don't do it, reminded or not. But the nerds will vote in droves if they ever put in on the Internet. ;-)

      I think turnout today is predicted below 40%. OK, it's not a Presidential election, but if you're following Yank politics the Senate is hanging in the balance, politically. And just a couple of years ago those nice folks in Florida showed us that each vote does count (usually).

      Gotta go pick up my 6 y.o. so we can go vote (I let him press the buttons but not make the choices).

    3. Re:Election Day... by bemis · · Score: 1

      :)
      no argument there, I guess what I was hoping for was more of an analysis of this election and it's candidates. It just seems a little hypocritical to me that several of todays front-page stories are gripes about this or that, policitally and I didn't see anywhere a "by the way, here's a link to some info on candidates running in todays election" or anything.

      (sidenote: does anybody know of any good sites out there that break down US political candidates in a way useful to a lot of us "one-topic" voters? (be us gun-nuts, tech-nuts, privacy-nuts, etc))

      (For the record, being without a television, the only reason I remembered it was election day was because MSNBC.com told me so (friend's homepage).)

      bemis
      -welcome to the internet, where the men are men, the women are men, and the small girls are FBI agents-

    4. Re:Election Day... by ChristTrekker · · Score: 1

      I already plan to vote when I get home today. Unfortunately, most of my choices are members of the Duopoly. So no matter which I vote for, it's a vote for the status quo.

      Looking back six months, I wish I would have filed to run for state Sec'y of State as a third party. It would have been a good platform to advocate some election (not campaign) reform, had I been elected. For a relatively obscure office like this I think people would have more seriously considered a third party, especially since it makes sense that a non-major-party person would likely be more neutral in voting disputes between the two major parties. Hindsight is 20/20.

      --

      Constitutionally Correct

    5. Re:Election Day... by Alien+Being · · Score: 2

      "*try* to do something about it"

      Yeah, choose a candidate and get out there to throw a pie in his/her face. I'm just so damned disgusted with the whole lot of them. Voting is futile when all the choices suck.

      The MA governor's debate was pathetic. "You said X.". "No I didn't, but you said Y." "No I didn't." Now I know why they call them "goobers".

      It would have been better if they had put on the gloves and boxed 10 rounds (Shannon O'Brien probably would have kicked Romney's ass, or at least ruined his makeup.)

    6. Re:Election Day... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      unfortunately I found out that i can not vote. Did i commit a felony or am I am illegal immigrant you ask? No.

      I just moved across the country to Arizona and found out that I would have had to have lived here for 30 days by the registration deadline (Oct 6th I believe) to vote today. I did not. I have however been in AZ long enough that i am now a resident here and not in the state i moved from. Guess my voice doesn't count.

    7. Re:Election Day... by analog_line · · Score: 2

      So get out there and vote Green, or Libertarian, or whatever. Hell, if it wasn't for the Greens, Al Gore would be President. That's power. Show your dissatisfaction by voting third party. The more people do it, the more power they have, either by influencing the debate, forcing the Republicrats to actually campaign on principles so they don't get votes taken from them, or maybe even have to share power with them when at some point the Greens, Libertatians, or whatever party gets a few seats. Sure, only the blind would believe that they have a chance at taking control, but they do have power, nonetheless, and I bet that they'll get more as this national deadlock wends on.

    8. Re:Election Day... by Alien+Being · · Score: 2

      "Show your dissatisfaction by voting third party."

      I'm with ya. I voted for Nader.

      Still, I like my "pie in the face" idea. It couldn't be just one guy though. It'd have to be, like a whole bunch of people with pies. Then the media could report daily pie statistics. I think that would be very good.

    9. Re:Election Day... by Nept · · Score: 2

      There was nothing on the ballot about any of this.

      --
      "Teachers leave us kids alone ..." - Roger Waters, Pink Floyd
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  67. Why? by MacAndrew · · Score: 2

    Why? Just because it has the work FUCK in it?

    Fuck? Fuck? Fuck? Fuck? Fuck? Fuck? Fuck? Fuck? Fuck? Fuck? Fuck? Fuck? Fuck? Fuck? Fuck? Fuck? Fuck? Fuck? Fuck? Fuck? Fuck? Fuck? Fuck? Fuck? Fuck? Fuck? Fuck? Fuck? Fuck? Fuck? Fuck? Fuck? Fuck? Fuck? Fuck? Fuck? Fuck? Fuck? Fuck? Fuck? Fuck? Fuck? Fuck? Fuck? Fuck? Fuck? Fuck? Fuck? Fuck? Fuck? Fuck? Fuck? Fuck? Fuck? Fuck? Fuck? Fuck? Fuck? Fuck? Fuck?

    Praise librarians for believing in free speech.

    This posting made possible by the ALA and all those library fines I've paid over the years.

    1. Re:Why? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      No that's not the reason at all smart ass. (Read: John Lennon's killer)

  68. What about the EFF? by shren · · Score: 2

    Can the EFF get involved in this? It's a little outside of thier turf, as I understand it, but it's a worthy thing to combat or at least publicise.

    --
    Maybe the state's highest function is to grind out insoluble problems. (Zelazny, Hall of Mirrors)
  69. The real test.... by bpd1069 · · Score: 2, Interesting

    I know all of this is stemming from the Gov'ts attempts at providing a 'Sense' of security, which we all know is next to impossible without erecting a 10 mile high wall around the US and shooting down any plane that comes over the wall (or anyone that tunnels underneath. These attempts at spying on the citizenry of the US is a serious afront to our freedom as a whole, at the expense of an ILLUSION of security.

    All of these safeguards are merely illusions. The real indication that a terrorist cannot bring in a nuke into the country will be the day that illegal drugs can't get into the country. I don't see that happening anytime soon. Think about it, if I were a terrorist and had a large nuclear device i wanted smuggled into the US, I would contact a drug smuggler, they get literally 1,000's of tons of drugs into the US every year.

    The day heroine is 1,000$/gram is the day we can expect a reasonable sense of security (from a nuke detonating in DC atleast).

    --
    --
  70. Help me by bayankaran · · Score: 1, Funny

    I need to go to library. Can someone give me a list of safe books?

    --
    Tat Tvam Asi
    1. Re:Help me by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The following list has been approved by our administration:

      21st Century King James Version (KJ21). 21st Century King James Bible Publishers: Gary, SD. 1994.

      Amplified Bible (Amp). Grand Rapids, MI: Zondervan, 1965.

      Analytical-Literal Translation of the Holy Bible (ALT). Copyright © 1999-2001 by Gary F. Zeolla of Darkness to Light ministry (www.dtl.org).

      Contemporary English Version/ Bible for Today's Family (CEV). Nashville: Thomas Nelson, 1991.

      Darby, John Nelson. The English Darby Bible (DBY). Public Domain, 1890.

      English Bible in Basic English (BBE). C.K. Ogden of the Orthological Institute, England: Cambridge Press, 1949, 1964.

      Good News Bible/ Today's English Version (GNB). New York: American Bible Society, 1976.

      Goodspeed, Edgar. New Testament: An American Translation (Gspd). Chicago: University of Chicago, 1938.

      King James Version (KJV).

      Green, J.P. Literal Translation of the Bible (LITV). Copyright 1976 - 2000. Used by permission of the copyright holder, Jay P. Green, Sr.

      Logos 21 Version (L21). Dallas, TX: Majority Text Society, n.a.

      Modern King James Version (MKJV). Copyright 1962 - 1998. Used by the permission of the copyright holder, Jay P. Green, Sr.

      New American Bible for Catholics (NAB). Nashville: Thomas Nelson, 1980.

      New American Standard Bible (NASB or NAS77). La Habra, CA: The Lockman Foundation, 1977.

      New American Standard Bible (NAS95). La Habra, CA: The Lockman Foundation, 1995.

      New English Translation (NET). Copyright 1999.

      New Century Version/ The Everyday Bible (NCV). Dallas: Word Publishing, 1988.

      New English Bible (NEB). Cambridge: At the University Press, 1972.

      New International Version (NIV). Grand Rapids: Zondervan, 1984.

      New King James Version (NKJV). Nashville: Thomas Nelson, 1982.

      New Living Translation (NLT). Tyndale Charitable Trust. 1996.

      New Revised Standard Version (NRSV). Grand Rapids: Zondervan, 1990.

      Peterson, Eugene. The Message (Mesg). Colorado Springs, CO: NavPress, 1993.

      Phillips, J.B. The New Testament in Modern English (Phi). New York: Macmillian Company, 1960.

      Revised Standard Version (RSV). Grand Rapids: Zondervan, 1971.

      Revised Webster's Bible (RWB). Public Domain, 1995.

      Taylor, Kenneth. The Living Bible (LB). Wheaton, IL: Tyndale House Publishers, 1971.

      Turner, Robert L. King James - Easy Reading Version (KJER). Palm Beach, FL, n.a.

      Webster, Noah. Webster's Bible (WB). Public Domain, 1833.

      World English Bible (WEB). Longmont, CO: Rainbow Missions, Inc., copyright-free.

      Wuest, Kenneth. The New Testament: An Expanded Translation (Wuest). Grand Rapids: Wm. B. Eerdman's, 1961.

      Young, Robert. Young's Literal Translation (YLT). Public Domain, 1898.

      All other works are suspect.

    2. Re:Help me by Stonehand · · Score: 1

      Funny man. But /most/ books would likely not get attention.

      The ones that would interest the DEA might be fairly obvious -- books explicitly aimed at manufacturing illegal drugs, mainly.

      The ones that would interest the Homeland Security folks... perhaps texts on urban insurrectionist tactics, improvised explosives and army field manuals, heh.

      --
      Only the dead have seen the end of war.
    3. Re:Help me by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
      • The Anarchist Cookbook
      • The Quran
      • Mein Kampf
      • anything on Waco
      • The Best Democracy Money Can Buy, by Greg Palast (a how-to on fixed elections in the USA)
      Glad I could help.
  71. Lay off McCarthy by rizzo · · Score: 4, Funny

    We in Wisconsin have so little going for us, any publicity, good or bad, is needed.

    Of course we do have Jeffrey Dahmer and Ed Gein. Oh wait.

    --

    "More organs means more human." - Zim

    1. Re:Lay off McCarthy by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      We in Wisconsin have so little going for us, any publicity, good or bad, is needed.

      Of course we do have Jeffrey Dahmer and Ed Gein.

      Don't forget Weezer.. they're from Kenosha! :o)

    2. Re:Lay off McCarthy by GodLessOne · · Score: 1

      What about Green Bay (7-1).
      Are you saying that this is bad as well?

      Go Packers!

      --
      Is it time to go home yet?
  72. George Orwell... by MacAndrew · · Score: 2

    ...would have approved.

    Well, he would have been horrified.

    1. Re:George Orwell... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Shut up. Shut up. Shut UP. SHUT UP!! Damn I am so SICK of hearing about George Fucking Orwell whenever anything vaguely Big Brotherly comes down the pipe. Yes, USA PATRIOT is bad, but damn, come up with a new fscking referece. Read something not on every summer reading list of every middle school in America why don' tyou. Damn...stupid posers. What a waste of your +1 karma bonus.

  73. fake ids by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    as alota people know the library card is the second or third step in creating a fake identity.
    so i dont even see the point in tracking people this way.

    1. mail to get bill sent to address in new identity name.

    2. take bill to library and get card.thus entering fake id into system

    3.destruction and decline of western civilization and other general happiness.

  74. Simple Solution: Take Computers out of Libraries by Real+World+Stuff · · Score: 1

    I am with Clifford Stoll on this one. Libraries are repositories of information, but do they need to be free internet cafes? Research? Bullshit, The only research are google searches. A library inventory should contain books, periodicals, and articles of note.

    I love technology, I love computers. If I need to use a computer and I cannot get home or to work, it can wait. If I am out of town, I have a laptop. My phone handles my mail and SMS as well. IMHO, we do not need klez speading porn surfers in the library. These are the type of people that do not use a video store for movies, but "rent" them from the library.Get a job.

    --
    If we don't fight for ourselves no one will.
  75. Just out of curiousity... by schlach · · Score: 2

    No one's mentioned this yet, but in Amerika, it is Election Day.

    Has everyone worried about AshKroft et al voted?

    I know, I know, I'm preaching to the choir. Everyone on Slashdot that expresses their concern about an issue goes out and tells 100 people about it, and gets them all active in progressive change. Example: do you know who Maher Arar is?

    I don't mean to get too bitter here, guys, but regime change starts at home. It's like the old Steven Stills song. If you can't have a system you love, umm, change the system you've got until it more closely resembles the system you'd love. =)

  76. Wrong enemy by CathedralRulz · · Score: 2, Insightful
    The FBI is working to protect us and many folks for some reason are turning them into the enemy. Doesn't the fact that these are government-run libraries give the actual government the ability to use them as a potential resource to prevent terrorist activities? Can you please cite what part of the constitution this violates

    This absolute, knee-jerk libertine fascist reaction against any kind of reasonable investigations is what can eventually result in all freedoms being lost. The people the FBI is fighting are the people who would turn the US in to Egypt or Saudi Arabia where, except for the very rich, have the kind of rights we have here.

    1. Re:Wrong enemy by Rick+the+Red · · Score: 2
      Q: Then why doesn't the Government have these Government-run libraries simply remove all material the Government thinks could be helpful to terrorists, rather than asking the libraries to name those who read it?

      A: Because spying on the public is easier than censoring libraries. Apparantly the First Amendment protects the right to speak, but not the right to hear.

      --
      If all this should have a reason, we would be the last to know.
  77. Don't laugh.... by MacAndrew · · Score: 2

    ...because bin Laden is said to be a BIG Harry Potter fan.

    Fancies himself to be Professor Dumbledore, my sources say. Professor Snape was lost in the attacks, happily.

    1. Re:Don't laugh.... by Yoda2 · · Score: 2

      Now that's a novel re-cast for Richard Harris!

  78. it's christmas for con men! by shren · · Score: 5, Funny
    Wow. This is begging - begging! - for a big fat stack of social engineering. You can fake being an FBI man and get into the library records of anyone you want. They're under gag order and they know it, so they won't look into it at all. Just run a line on the librarian about the Patriot Act and federal felony charges if they do anything to breach the secrecy of the inquiry, including looking into it. Even casual checking might reveal to the librarian that they're getting conned, but they can't check, or if they do check they have to do all the checking themselves without telling anyone why! Throw in some bullshit about how open phone lines arn't regarded as secure, and you can convince them that they can't even call the FBI to check your id!

    Christmas comes early this year for the black hats! How many other gag orders like this exist under the patriot act? How many people are hindered in finding out if inquiries are coming from a valid source? How many shady groups are already using this enviornment of secrecy to reach thier nefarious ends?

    --
    Maybe the state's highest function is to grind out insoluble problems. (Zelazny, Hall of Mirrors)
  79. Changing for better or worse by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    The whole idea of things changing for the better came about in 1940's - 1950's America. Previously, everyone pretty much agreed that things were much shittier than they had been before.......

    1. Re:Changing for better or worse by zrodney · · Score: 2

      "whole idea of things changing for the better came about in 1940's - 1950's America. Previously, everyone pretty much agreed that things were much shittier than they had been before......."

      well, the 1930s were mostly about the depression and WWI so, it would be hard to get much worse for most people around that time.

  80. Interesting links by crawdaddy · · Score: 1

    Here's what the American Library Association has to say about all this. I seem to remember reading about a situation about 20-30 years ago in which a librarian would not give up information and went to jail for a short while either for obstruction of justice or contempt of court. I can't find the article at the moment, though.

    1. Re:Interesting links by crawdaddy · · Score: 1

      Here's the article about the woman that was jailed for 3 weeks for refusing to give out information 30 years ago.

      My stomach just lurched. Must be the kickback from history repeating its loop.

  81. Are you saying... by EzInKy · · Score: 1

    ...that an article about freedom being off topic is off topic?

    --
    Time is what keeps everything from happening all at once.
  82. Eunice Stone? by MacAndrew · · Score: 1

    I don't suppose you came across Eunice Stone there?

    She may be a lovely person, but to me she typifies the nervous, unworldly, vaguely racist people that make so much mischief possible.

    And I have never heard of a library donation being declined! All of them? I accidentally donated a 30 y.o. ZIP code directory to our Arlington, VA library and they took it. (Well, they probably didn't find it before we pulled out of the parking lot.)

  83. Please Turn Yourself In by Lemmeoutada+Collecti · · Score: 1

    Please turn yourself in to the nearest Terrorist Processing Center. You obviously have inappropriate knowledge of the FBI Internal Operations. It is innapropriate to inform the public that we 'might' be monitoring public computer systems.

    While an investigation is being made into your means of obtaining this information, you will be our 'guest' at one of our fine Camps.

    Thank you for your prompt cooperation in defending our country.

    --

    You can have it fast, accurate, or pretty. Pick any 2.
  84. Nerds vote... by MacAndrew · · Score: 2

    ...and if this isn't "stuff that matters" I forget what is.

    Oh, it's election day, BTW.

    1. Re:Nerds vote... by Call+Me+Black+Cloud · · Score: 1

      Many things matter. Starving children. Cancer. Child/spouse/animal abuse. Should it all be discussed here?

      I voted. Did you?

    2. Re:Nerds vote... by MacAndrew · · Score: 2

      On my way to pick up my first grader to go vote now. (Beaming.) There was an NPR piece this morning on research showing that kids who went to the polling place with their parents were twice as likely to vote as adults. Hey, I remember doing it with my mom.

      As for the other that matter, if anyone has solutions I'll listen to them in any forum. But more seriously, freedom of speech is, well, pretty philosophically close to the GPL movement. There's also a lot of interest in DMCA and other freedom v. law issues. Fianlly, government monitoring of computer activity has frightening implications ... hence the interest in PGP. There's a pattern, at least arguably enough to justify this posting.

      That doesn't mean any posting on free speech belongs here -- there ought to be a technology angle.

    3. Re:Nerds vote... by Call+Me+Black+Cloud · · Score: 1

      On my way to pick up my first grader to go vote now. (Beaming.) There was an NPR piece this morning on research showing that kids who went to the polling place with their parents were twice as likely to vote as adults. Hey, I remember doing it with my mom.

      What a great idea! I should have taken my 4 year old. I'll be sure to do that next election...thanks for the idea.

  85. Kind of ironic in a scary way by cptgrudge · · Score: 1

    I saw a commercial on TV about libraries. A kid enters a library, goes up to the librarian and asks for a certain book (doesn't matter what it is). She says that he can't read that book. He asks why he can't and she just repeats herself. He starts to walk away and two men in suits stop him and begin to question him. The librarian looks on sadly as he is taken away.

    It was supposed to be some sort of "Aren't you glad you live in America" type commercial.

    Indeed.

    --
    Qualitas edurus commercium, nullus penitus net rimor, nullus deus beneficium
  86. Heh. Its all part of living in a free country! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Heh. Its all part of living in a free country!

  87. terrorists in libraries by jdkane · · Score: 2, Funny

    Now those terrorists posing as librarians don't stand a chance, unless they can pin the blame on some poor fellow with a library card. I always thought my high-school library was weird, and they often use threatening tactics to get their books back. Now I can no longer chalk it up to an over-developed sense of possessiveness.

  88. Not only do they get the data... by warpSpeed · · Score: 2
    They go straight to the vendor that runs the software system for the library to get the data. The library personel may not even know that the FBI was snooping around. Scarry.

  89. Amendments 9 and 10 really don't exist... by Jim+McCoy · · Score: 3, Interesting

    Think I am joking? Try to find an opinion of the court (not a dissent) that rested its argument upon either amendment... It may be the case that most cases based upon retained or reserved rights never get cert, but in practical terms these amendments are about as important to the current court as the third amendment. I have heard reasonable arguments made that the 13th and 14th amendments effectively gutted 9 and 10 when combined with the commerce clause after the various civil rights cases.

    1. Re:Amendments 9 and 10 really don't exist... by Stonehand · · Score: 4, Informative

      How about "US v. Morrison" -- in May 15, 2000 SCOTUS affirmed an US Court of Appeals ruling striking down 42 USC 13981 on the basis that the Constitution did /not/ give Congress the ability to legislate on the matter covered, and explicitly stating that the Commerce Clause could /not/ be stretched as ludicrously far as Congress and the President had wanted.

      The ruling even states, "Every law enacted by Congress must be based on one or more of its powers enumerated in the Constitution", and specifically cites Marbury v. Madison in rejecting arbitrary extensions of federal power.

      Incidentally, it was the four liberal justices who dissented in order to promote federal power over every little bit of American society (and likewise in striking down the Gun Free School Zone law, where again Congress tried to buy votes by grossly exceeding its limits).

      (And for the but-the-Conservatives-screwd-States-Rights-to-help -Bush whiners -- Florida did /not/ apply its own law evenly to its counties; hence, the 14th Amendment violation. SCOTUS got jurisdiction as an appellate court. Ergo, no states-rights problem, as the states do not have a right to apply their own laws unevenly and thus violate equal-protection.)

      --
      Only the dead have seen the end of war.
    2. Re:Amendments 9 and 10 really don't exist... by MoneyT · · Score: 2

      Limiting the extention of powers is not so much a matter of the rights being retained by the states, more a limmit on the rights of the government. In this case, the decision was telling the government that you can only extend your power so far. For example, the congress has the power to regulate commerece between the states. But they don't have the power to control your interactions with someone else even though that could by extension effect inter-state commerce. They tried this once, I forget the case, and basicaly the courts told them that you can not say that the interactions of two people withing a state, even if one of them has interactions outside the state, constitutes interstate commerce. Still nothing about you retaining a right though

      --
      T Money
      World Domination with a plastic spoon since 1984
    3. Re:Amendments 9 and 10 really don't exist... by Jim+McCoy · · Score: 2

      I will grant you that the persistent fungus that is the commerce clause is occasionally fought back, but the opinion in the case you cite does not, as far as I can tell, actually cite the ninth or tenth amendments. The case limits the range of the pernicious combination of the fourteenth and the commerce clause.

      Seriously, does anyone with a Lexus link have an answer here? It has been more than a decade since my last con law class and I sort of lost track of what the Supremes were up to in some of the less celebrated cases of the 90s...

    4. Re:Amendments 9 and 10 really don't exist... by mpe · · Score: 2

      How about "US v. Morrison" -- in May 15, 2000 SCOTUS affirmed an US Court of Appeals ruling striking down 42 USC 13981 on the basis that the Constitution did /not/ give Congress the ability to legislate on the matter covered, and explicitly stating that the Commerce Clause could /not/ be stretched as ludicrously far as Congress and the President had wanted.

      For one thing the 10th ammendment should trump the commerce clause anyway. It requires a strange reading of the document to ignore an ammendment.

      The ruling even states, "Every law enacted by Congress must be based on one or more of its powers enumerated in the Constitution",

      If this needs to be stated then there is a big problem with the US Congress.

  90. The spot itself [Re:The Irony Is...] by aaandre · · Score: 5, Informative

    The spot itself is available at
    http://www.adcouncil.org/campaigns/campaign_for_ fr eedom/

    Click on Library (links on the right).

    If security experts believe that a determined criminal's last resort for information would be the public library... too bad for all of us.

    Our society is built on the trust that most of its members lead lives based on "acceptable" line of behavior. There is no way to enforce high security against determined individuals without changing the environment, at a high cost, both monetary and human rights wise. Such environments are prisons, banks, airports, etc.

    The choice of a government to create conflicts and conditions which encourage the appearance of such "determined individuals" is a conscious decision to turn its citizens into hostages.

    Unfortunately, I don't see a quick solution.
    Maybe treat others with respect and/or leave them alone? Even that might not be a solution as it might be exploited as a sign of fear. I am not a politician and do not understand the rules in the battle for power. What I see is that a structure which was invented to support the best interests of "all people" is changing its function to support other entities by _exploiting_ "all people".

    Now what?

    1. Re:The spot itself [Re:The Irony Is...] by bshanks · · Score: 1

      > Unfortunately, I don't see a quick solution.

      > Now what?

      I feel the same lack of power.

      My guess is that the answer is to keep working within the current system, attempting to vote into office folks who will restrain this before it becomes unstoppable. At this point (unless the conspiracy theorists are right) democracy still functions when the public feels strongly about something, and when the machine deigns to put that something on the agenda (and items can still be forced onto the agenda from grassroots).

      Simply trying to get our views out to others until there is a mass of public opinion which sees the dire long term consequences of these things seems like the best course of action to me, although as I've said, I'm not sure.

      Also, I don't think the outlook is necessarily as bad as it seems. At times in the past this country lived with less civil rights than it has now, and yet we got better. And other countries around the world have progress from less to move civil rights. The only thing to fear is that technology will change the dynamics of things in such a way that this will become impossible. But who knows what technology will do? This suggests a second course of action; favor working on technologies that seem like they would help liberties, rather than oppression.

      Which these are is uncertain. My current guess is that information processing and collaboration technologies may help citizens organize to watch government more effectively than they help government fight citizens. Many people these days would probably agree that government is overreaching with the libraries thing, the problem is that no one has time to keep track of more than a few issues. Superior information processing and collaboration may help us educate ourselves better, making it easier for a critical mass of citizens to come together on an issue.

    2. Re:The spot itself [Re:The Irony Is...] by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Simple: Walk into a library, surf or borrow a book, then sue Ashcroft for an illegal search. Kick it to the judicial branch.

  91. Why do they want to know about my books? by Pyromage · · Score: 2

    I'd like to know why they actually think its necessary to track my books.

    I'd find it hard to argue against this if there was a clear, valid reason. It still violates free speech, but so do a lot of things and there are good reasons, legality notwithstanding.

    But this is just flat out pointless. Are they going to see that I check out a book on bomb-making? Why not just watch my purchases? They already do that, after all.

    I just don't understand why it is useful for them to moniter this. If a suspected terrorist checks out a book, so what? A book on bomb-making doesn't make a bomb, it makes knowledge. You still need the materials, which are even easier to trace.

    Secondly, if I were a terrorist, I'd go to the library and copy pages out of books with a digital camera or a xerox machine.

    1. Re:Why do they want to know about my books? by Stonehand · · Score: 2

      In certain cases, the materials may be /harder/ to trace. Nails, pipes, gasoline, rags, vaseline, bottles, lightbulbs... Your average home likely already contains all the components necessary to build a small-scale antipersonnel bomb.

      --
      Only the dead have seen the end of war.
    2. Re:Why do they want to know about my books? by clonebarkins · · Score: 1
      I'd like to know why they actually think its necessary to track my books.

      They look for things like:

      • Catcher in the Rye
      • The Turner Diaries
      • 1984

      You know, all the books that make you a terrorist.

      Oops, did I really post those titles in an open forum....?

      --

      "The evil of the world is made possible by nothing but the sanction you give it." -- Ayn Rand

  92. Yes, we have a right to privacy by Gerry+Gleason · · Score: 3, Insightful
    It's right there in the Bill of Rights. The right to be secure in your person, papers and properties against unwarrented searches and sesures (paraphrasing, of course). The free speach aspect is secondary, although important as well.

    Yes, the library is a public place, but what I look at and what I check out is my private business, and unless I'm already under investigation, they have no right to this information. My email is as private as normal letters, phone conversations and even my private conversations with a librarian about my library searches. This practice needs to be tested in court, and it surely will not stand.

    The FBI has consistently shown themselves to be tools of buearocrats and the current administration, and they must be held to a higher standard. They don't need this to fight terrorism, they need to work with other government agencies and quit being so damned arrogant.

    1. Re:Yes, we have a right to privacy by mpe · · Score: 2

      Yes, the library is a public place, but what I look at and what I check out is my private business,

      Private between you and the library.

      and unless I'm already under investigation, they have no right to this information.

      Even if you are under investigation, someone should still have to make the case that your book borrowing is relevent.

  93. Re:So what? I'll Tell You What! by Call+Me+Black+Cloud · · Score: 1
    Consider the extremes:

    all things are allowed. No cops. No FBI. No CIA

    nothing is allowed. Big brother pervades.

    Do you want everyone to have absolute freedom? No. You want something between the extremes, so you trade your personal freedom for your personal security. Where do you draw the line?

    By the way, the quote is from Benjamin Franklin, sunshine.

  94. Fear ... uncertainty ... denial. by watchful.babbler · · Score: 3, Informative
    I'm going to lose precious karma with this post, but ...

    It's true that the USA-PATRIOT Act has a number of provisions that are of questionable Constitutionality and dubious value to the War Against Terror (TM, Pat. Pending). However, this article (gratuitous link)is nothing more than gross conjecture without evidence. As we say down here in Texas, he's sellin' a whole lotta bull and not much steak.

    It is illegal for a wiretap or datatap to be undertaken without judicial oversight and authorization (see United States v. United States District Court, 407 U.S. 297 (1972), holding "Fourth Amendment freedoms cannot properly be guaranteed if domestic security surveillances may be conducted solely within the discretion of the Executive Branch."). The expanded tap provisions of USA-PATRIOT allow for a greater level of secrecy to surround specific wire- or datataps (specifically, those approved by the special FISA court for national security issues), but federal law enforcement does not have carte blanche to go around randomly listening in to our conversations. In order for a tap to pass Constitutional muster, it has to be narrowly drawn. Setting up a general-purpose dragnet to pull in data from all library patrons, the vast majority of whom cannot legally be targeted by a FISA tap order, would get drop-kicked out of the most deferential judge's chambers. (Orrin Hatch's statement on FISA taps under USA-PATRIOT is here, and the ALA's interpretation of the Act is here).

    The FBI does have expanded powers to grab library records, for purposes of domestic law enforcement as well as international espionage and terror investigations, but that's very different -- if no less disturbing -- than ongoing monitoring, and would be sufficient to trigger the librarians' circumspection. It certainly doesn't mean that the Feds slapped a Carnivore underneath the public terminal carousel.

    --
    "Freedom is kind of a hobby with me, and I have disposable income that I'll spend to find out how to get people more."
  95. First Amendment? by ackthpt · · Score: 2

    Freedom of speech, sure, your freedom to talk your head off on any issue. Seems the First Amendment is bypassed, though, by the current regime. You may have the right to speak, but they reserve the right to keep track of what you say and who listens to you. See any limitations on that in the Constitution?

    --

    A feeling of having made the same mistake before: Deja Foobar
    1. Re:First Amendment? by buysse · · Score: 2
      Yes, I do. Not in the text of the constitution, but in several SCOTUS rulings that established the doctrine of prior restraint.

      The basic idea is that a restriction on speech, such as the FBI actions in the libraries, will affect my speech and ability to speak in the future. Read the linked page; it explains it better than I can.

      --
      -30-
    2. Re:First Amendment? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yeah, and I bet you have been to more than your fair share of book burnings too. After all, that is what we Americans are about, right?

    3. Re:First Amendment? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Hell yeah, that and trying to take over the world through warfare, anyway...

    4. Re:First Amendment? by mpe · · Score: 2

      Freedom of speech, sure, your freedom to talk your head off on any issue. Seems the First Amendment is bypassed, though, by the current regime. You may have the right to speak, but they reserve the right to keep track of what you say and who listens to you.

      Typically the "they" get very upset when private citizens want to track and record what they are up to. e.g. videotaping police assaulting someone.

  96. Here's a Simple Solution by Anal+Surprise · · Score: 3, Insightful

    The article even suggests the answer. It may be illegal for a librarian to tell you he or she's been visited by the FBI, but it's not illegal for one to tell you he or she hasn't been.

    Start compiling a list of where the librarians answer like they're in a spy movie and where they go "huh?". Publish it. Ask for the official "we have not been visited by the FBI letter", if you can get it.

    If you can find where there's light, the darkness will also be visible.

    1. Re:Here's a Simple Solution by tiny69 · · Score: 2

      But it would only take one librarian to comply with the FBI's demand. And that could be accomplished by a cluefull manager. So you would have to ask EVERY librarian and manager at a library before you would find the answer you were looking for.

      --
      Go not unto/. for advice, for you will be told both yea and nay (but have nothing to do with the question)
  97. Just DON'T keep by Archfeld · · Score: 3, Insightful

    the records. There is no requirement or really, any need to keep records of who checked out what specific books. If you want to record how many times a book was checked out for stocking issues so be it, but if you don't have the info, the FBI can't really do anything about it can they. I can't count how many times this kind of issue has come back and haunted companies or institutions, if you have data, it can be subpoenaed. I do volunteer work for local libraries and we altered the system to only retain the name/library card # of the person who has the book, until it is checked back in, then we blank those fields and record the fact that it was checked out, and returned and was in use for the specific dates. This ensure they know which books are getting used for ordering purposes while removing the onus from the librarians. The local city attorney agreed with the policy change, I am not sure if the county was consulted. Given the nature of the backups and technology, I am sure the FBI could recover what they need, but they must do the work, not the librarians.

    --
    errr....umm...*whooosh* *whoosh* Is this thing on ?
    1. Re:Just DON'T keep by Subgroove · · Score: 1

      I stated this on a post that is newer, but I'll say it here. Most ciculation datatbases out there (horizon, etc) do not record items that have previously been checked out by a patron. Once the item is returned, it is permenantly erased from the patron's record. The only exceptions being if the item was turned in late or damaged. This prevents anyone from monitoring a patron's past reading habits. The item maintains the number of times it circulates and that is all.

    2. Re:Just DON'T keep by Archfeld · · Score: 2

      Given that we both agree on this, what does the FBI actually hope to gain by this ? It seems like a foolishly annoying instance for no real gain. All they end up doing is making bad publicity...

      --
      errr....umm...*whooosh* *whoosh* Is this thing on ?
  98. America.. Home of the what?? land of the what?? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Interesting

    It seem that phrase should be rephrased to home of the enslaved, land of the silenced..

    here in canada we are prepairing for Rememberance day, and i think this year i will be reflecting of the fact that thousands of brave men & women gave up their lives fighting aganst facisim, and for my freedom. and in that in the end it was all for not, because we allowed the facists to take over our government. and allowed those that same government to take away our freedoms in the name of security..

    something to reflect upon. and i sincerely hope people do on rememberance day..

  99. Solution: Burn 'em by Bob9113 · · Score: 1

    Why are we monitoring the people who read evil books anyway? Wouldn't it be easier to simply gather them up and burn them? (the books, not the people who read them... although that is another thought...)

    --
    Stop-Prism.org: Opt Out of Surveillance
    1. Re:Solution: Burn 'em by Stonehand · · Score: 1

      (1) Because /that/ would be a clear-cut Constitutional violation, whereas monitoring is more of a grey area.

      (2) As a more practical matter, it would deny the Feds the ability to find out who's especially interested in such texts.

      --
      Only the dead have seen the end of war.
  100. Wrong question. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    The real question is 'Where in the Constitution does the federal government have the power to deprive people of anonymity at public libraries (with or without notification)?'

    May I refer you to the tenth amendment:

    The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the states, are reserved to the states respectively, or to the people.

    (and please no stupid remarks about people losing anonymity at public places, as what is being done here goes well beoynd that)

  101. The obvious course of action by schlach · · Score: 2

    is civil disobedience (barely).

    Want to find out if the feds are monitoring a couple of people's book lists, or everyone's requests for a few books? Join me in padding our FBI files by checking out as many books as you dare on the subjects of:

    Islam
    Middle-Eastern history
    Anything by Chomsky
    1984 and Animal Farm
    A People's History of the United States

    then wait and watch for white window-less paneled vans parked on your street, with "Flowers By Irene" or "Two FBI Guys Pizza" stenciled on the side.

    True terrorists - please continue your normal reading habits, as you may already be under surveillance, and any results under this system would only distort our survey.

  102. Such evidence used in a court case yet? by _bug_ · · Score: 1

    Anyone know if any evidence collected from monitoring of public terminals has been used in a court case yet?

    It would seem that if such a case came about there would be huge public outcry about a right to privacy ect...

    Should have seen that comming with the Patriot Act? Naw. I think a lot of Americans really didn't look at what the Patriot Act did, they just believed that it would help stop terrorists and perhaps assumed their rights were safe in hand.

    So a public case of that nature might snap people back into reality?

  103. Re:So what? I'll Tell You What! by Aleatoric · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Bad analogy.

    And a misquote from the grandparent post: "Those who would sacrifice an *essential* liberty for temporary safety, deserves neither", the key words here being essential, for liberty, and temporary, for safety.

    There is no such thing as permanent safety, no matter what the nanny state would have us believe.

    And the context of essential liberty is intended to refer to those liberties that do not infringe upon the liberties of others, it is not intended to promote or justify anarchy.

    A common misconception in most societies is the idea that we are granted our freedoms by law, when in fact, the opposite is true. Our essential freedoms have *always* existed, it is in the scope of law merely to protect them from those that would abuse them, and those abusers can (and often do) include the government and institutions we have in place to protect those freedoms.

    I'd rather keep EVERY ONE of my *essential* liberties, even at the risk of a little less certainty in the public safety arena, for the very simple reason that those who would threaten that safety will not be hampered, IN THE LEAST, by any of the restrictions on my freedoms.

    --

    Nunc Tutus Exitus Computarus.

  104. It's much much worse. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Ashcroft is not only a reincarnation of McCarthy -- he's also the uptight Christian revenant of J. Edgar Hoover, and combines the worst aspects of both McCarthy and Hoover.

  105. Guantanamo Bay by jason99si · · Score: 2
    I wonder where our government will put the concentration camps

    Hey, I know the answer to that one.. Guantanamo Bay, Cuba

  106. I guess... by DaytonCIM · · Score: 2

    we should just stop reading all together.

  107. RE: Librarians by GWOSKB · · Score: 1

    They are good sorts, librarians, Quiet and soleful, yet more I theorize its yet another sign that the american government is at its way to control everyone.

    --
    Bill Weber Linux Admin/General IT contractor 735 Dover Street Marietta GA 30067
  108. "They" are not omnipotent, you know... by razormage · · Score: 2, Informative

    Given that:

    * The FBI has recently begun an initiative to hire 600 new agents, as they are grossly understaffed.
    * This initiative calls for massive amount of technical/computer agents, as the Bureau cannot keep them in employment due to corporations offering them triple their salary for less work, better hours, and a less stressful environment.
    * Regional HQ offices group internet crime investigations in squads with embezzlement, insurance fraud, identity fraud, and other white-collar crimes.
    * FBI field offices have, at best, two or three computer specialists who can deal with problems within the jurisdiction of the field office.
    * White-collar squads have a four-month backlog of cases they need to investigate before moving on to cases that would come in today.
    * For every computer-related investigation that comes in, a case comes in for insurance fraud, one comes in for public embezzlement, and one comes in for public bribery.
    * Rating the above four case types by public profile and positive media exposure, computer investigations come as lowest priority. (While everyone loves seeing their city council members get arrested for accepting bribes, very few care if Joe Hacker is arrested for harassing a webiste the majority of America has never even heard of.)

    Something tells me that, while this Act might indeed infringe on privacy rights, the FBI has better things to do than put taps on every computer in library in America. Further, they lack the manpower to monitor those taps or snoop public computers, given all the cases computer specialists are called on to handle. More likely, they will take advantage of this new "privelage" when they know the lead to be a solid one, and have reason to believe it will lead to an arrest.

    Anyway, just my $0.02 USD.

  109. Re:Simple Solution: Take Computers out of Librarie by aftk2 · · Score: 1
    Libraries are repositories of information
    Yeah. And whoever heard of information on the internet?
    Research? Bullshit, The only research are google searches.
    Obviously you've never used FirstSearch to search the "over one million three-hundred thousand entries gleaned from essay collections, dissertations, monographs and over 6,000 journals" available in the MLA Bibliography Database. Have you tried EBSCO to search all the databases it provides access to?
    A library inventory should contain books, periodicals, and articles of note.
    This statement reminds me of one of the internet's fundamental problems: accessing desired information. What good is an enormous distributed repository of information if there exist no tools to locate worthwhile content? The books, periodicals, and articles of note in your library are worthless without effective methods of searching them. Computers provide those methods, which are far better than what was available before.
    --
    concrete5: a cms made for marketing, but strong enough for geeks.
  110. Ninth amendment by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    The enumeration in the Constitution, of certain rights, shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people.

    'While this may not be a basic right listed in the Constitution it's certainly a valuable tool and worth fighting to keep. '

    It is implicitly listed in the constitution. There was actually a big debate about the bill of rights over this very issue, most opponents of the bill of rights were concerned that listing certain rights would imply that any rights that they missed would be taken away, and as such did not want any listed at all. Hence the nineth amendment.

  111. Handy-dandy Patriot Act Decoder Table by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Funny

    Here's the question: "Is this library currently being monitored by the FBI?"

    Before act --> After act
    "Yes" -> "I'm sorry, we're not allowed to comment"
    "No" -> "No"

    Seems pretty simple...

  112. David Brin's Accountability Matrix by PineHall · · Score: 5, Insightful

    1 2
    3 4

    1. Tools that help me see what others are up to.
    2. Tools that prevent others from seeing what I am up to.
    3. Tools that help others see what I am up to.
    4. Tools that prevent me from seeing what others are up to.

    Maybe we should promote laws that make everyone's activities transparent. We like 1 and 2, but reality is that it is either 1 and 3, or 2 and 4. And 1 and 3 promotes accountability while 2 and 4 is an "arms race" to see if one can remain hidden. If we could check and make certain the FBI was doing its job properly, it would reign in any questionable activities.

  113. Precedent: Griswold v. Conneticut by Duck_Taffy · · Score: 2, Informative
    This seems to violate the Supreme Court's interpretation of the 1st Ammendment.

    From the Supreme Court's opinion on Griswold v. Conneticut:
    In NAACP v. Alabama we protected the "freedom to associate and privacy in one's associations," noting that freedom of association was a peripheral First Amendment right. Disclosure of membership lists of a constitutionally valid association, we held, was invalid "as entailing the likelihood of a substantial restraint upon the exercise by petitioner's members of their right to freedom of association." Ibid. In other words, the First Amendment has a penumbra where privacy is protected from governmental intrusion. The right of "association," like the right of belief (Board of Education v. Barnette, 319 U.S. 624), is more than the right to attend a meeting; it includes the right to express one's attitudes or philosophies by membership in a group or by affiliation with it or by other lawful means. Association in that context is a form of expression of opinion; and while it is not expressly included in the First Amendment its existence is necessary in making the express guarantees fully meaningful.

    (emphasis mine)
    --
    Karma: Ran over your dogma.
  114. Do two wrongs make one right? by Petrus · · Score: 1

    So law enforcement would require a librarian to lie, of asked? Why should a law undermine people's moral standards? Because the monitored one must be necessarily criminal?

    Since when two wrongs make right?

  115. Mod parent up by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    This needs to be discussed

  116. MOD PARENT UP! by Rimbo · · Score: 2

    PLEASE! Mod the parent up! So few people understand the meaning of the 9th Amendment, and as such this is a comment that is very valuable to this -- and any -- discussion of our rights!

  117. Re:Experience as a current Library Network Special by timmyf2371 · · Score: 1
    We definitely do not log peoples traffic nor do we have the storage space to do so.

    Even if you did log traffic, it doesn't actually appear that you'd be able to tell us :-)

    --

    Backup not found: (A)bort (R)etry (P)anic
  118. Michael, you moronic mass of mimicking muck by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0


    The FBI is NOT bugging libraries in real time as the term "bug" is generally used. They are monitoring users access history.

    Get a brain or check out.

    1. Re:Michael, you moronic mass of mimicking muck by packeteer · · Score: 2

      Thats like saying they arent checking what you read if they dont watch you check it out. Just becuase they go in and check the records doesn't mean its not going to show what you read.

      --
      unzip; strip; touch; finger; mount; fsck; more; yes; unmount; sleep
  119. Boy, are you in trouble now! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Turn yourself in - they may go lighter on you. And how did this get by the lameness filter?

  120. Just another step on the road to perdition. by Cervantes · · Score: 2, Insightful
    It happened so quickly. It was just the other day when I'd given a handful of spare change to the bum on the street corner. I didn't even notice what he looked like, but his face was plastered on the evening news, along with pictures of the bus he'd blown up. They'd traced his movements for the day quickly, using facial recognition with the cameras on the lamp posts. They followed back to the purchase of the last pieces of the bomb, and then further back, to me. Carnivore showed them the liberal bias in my emails, Echelon revealed my calls to family in the middle east, and the library records they ordered showed the books I'd taken out for my Middle Eastern History studies course.
    They were at my door right after dinner. I didn't get a chance to say anything before the tazer dropped me. I vaguely recall the agents keeping everyone in their apartments as the movers came in. All my possesions were to be sold to repay the victims. I was whisked away.
    No-one knows I'm here now. Anyone who talks about my absence could be picked up as a co-conspirator. I hadn't seen a soul in months, until this afternoon. I was dragged from my cell, down huge rows of cells, packed with people who looked as scared as I did. We waited in line with many other prisoners and guards, as we were ushered in one by one. My turn came. A small, drab courtroom greeted me. Lady Liberty smiled down on me, covered in dust and cobwebs. There were no public, no media, not even a court reporter. A judge glanced briefly in a folder, then asked me my plea. "To what?", I asked. The prosecutor pipped up; "Objection. That's classified". The judge nodded. "Your plea is entered as 'Not Guilty'. Mr Prosecutor, your case?" The lines were recited in a decidedly bored tone, as if they'd done this exact exchange all day. "We cannot reveal our sources, Your Honour, but we assure you we are certain of his guilt." The judge nodded. "Guilty, then. Next."

    The guards were teasing me again, today. They have games between themselves, about which prisoner will scream, which will run. I've found out that the charge of "Aiding a terrorist" is pretty common here. The only question is how my death sentence will be carried out. They seem to favour hanging, this week...

    This fiction brought to you by the United States of America. Just don't tell anyone you read it here.

    --
    If I knew the wedgies I gave you back in 6th grade would have resulted in this . . . I might have taken a moments pause.
  121. Re:A noted publiusher of his own anonymous works.. by Lord+Bitman · · Score: 2

    Didnt do too good a job of that, did he? :)

    --
    -- 'The' Lord and Master Bitman On High, Master Of All
  122. What would that evidence be? by Gorimek · · Score: 2

    Since it is all done in secret, and everyone who knows about it are forbidden to talk, how do you imagine that evidence of such misuse could be uncovered?

    The issue is, at a minimum, that there is some kind of oversight from forces outside the FBI. The court order you mention would be a good such thing, but the FBI need nothing of the kind to do this.

    Remember that the FBI under J Edgar Hoover practically ruled the US for decades, using information obtained through similar means.

  123. Anonymity the only privacy - or is it? by M00NIE · · Score: 3, Insightful

    It seems like every day I read an article somewhere about how *MY* personal privacy is invaded by our government. I take small solace in the fact that there are just too many people to watch and that I am still just a number. But for how long I wonder? How long before video cameras are plentiful enough, digital satellites can map the planet to superb detail, and computers can catalog the behavior of ordinary citizens with ease and extrapolate patterns of behavior from it. I use the library. I walk into stores where I'm video-taped. I read "controversial" material. Most of all, I wonder how much of that is already recorded about me somewhere that I don't know about.

    --
    "As far as I'm concerned, I prefer silent vice to ostentatious virtue." ~A. Einstein
  124. So do something. by Spy4MS · · Score: 2, Insightful

    You want to help people who defend your rights? Become a member of the ACLU

    Call your mom.

  125. All you silly fine monkeys by abesottedphoenix · · Score: 1

    Check your local library's policy. Our circulation is our lifeblood, so we don't like it so much when patrons don't check out because they're scared of the library police showing up for their really late stuff. SO, most libraries have a fine amnesty day, when you can return stuff with no fine. Those that don't generally have a maximum fine for an item that is lower than the cost of that item. We like getting our stuff back, so we'll work out deals to get it. Most libraries don't charge interest either. So call your local library, and start reading again :)

  126. I'm dead serious by poot_rootbeer · · Score: 2


    Sure there is. Drop out of school.

  127. taking books out? by Malicious · · Score: 3, Insightful
    I always made a point of doing my reading IN the library. That keeps nosey parents out of your interests, and provides a quiet place to read, and relax. You also eliminate the need for a library card. If you're worried that the book may not be there the next time you come back, hide it inside a reference book that no one will ever read.


    Now that's not so difficult is it?

    --
    01101001001000000110000101101101001000000110001001 10000101110100011011010110000101101110
  128. Sir... by fobbman · · Score: 2

    You saw that spot? Would you mind filling out this form, with your name, address, social security number?

  129. Why that doesn't work. by abesottedphoenix · · Score: 1

    We need to keep track of what books you folks like to read. How will we ever know the red hat linux book you love so much ever went out? How will we know that the Arthur C Clarke novels circ more than Maeve Binchy? The computers keep track of which book you check out while it's on your card. When you return it, if it's not late and in good condition, it gets taken off of your record. We have no idea that it was ever on your card, but we know that someone at sometime looked at that book.

    Be perfectly aware that if anyone asked me for a patron's record, I wouldn't give. I would take the jail time. I would challenge the Patriot Act. Most librarians have agreed to keep pitifully sloppy histories, if their database even allows histories. Just like a majority of libraries do not track exactly who you are when you use a PAC.
    Those that do often throw those records out after a month or so.

    Brooke

  130. At least they won't by myowntrueself · · Score: 3, Funny

    get into subpoenas envy!

    "My subpoenas bigger than yours! nyah!"

    --
    In the free world the media isn't government run; the government is media run.
  131. Given that someone could just look by myowntrueself · · Score: 1

    over your shoulder when you borrow a book and make a note of it and there'd be nothing you could do about it, no. Libraries are public places, whats the reasonable expectation of privacy at the library checkout counter?

    --
    In the free world the media isn't government run; the government is media run.
  132. Re:So what? I'll Tell You What! by panaceaa · · Score: 1
    While Winston Churchill may have said that in 1940, the original quote came from Benjamin Franklin:
    "Those who are willing to trade freedom for security deserve neither freedom nor security."
    --
    my blog
  133. Sounds like a good.... by gotvim · · Score: 1

    Sounds like a good reason to promote more privatization. I know the more liberal parties mean well, but the reason things like this are happening is because certain people in government believe that we, the people, are too stupid to do or run anything on our own. If libraries were privately run, this would never happen. The company could tell the FBI where to go. However, who knows who the company would give their info to and for what cost? It's a loose, loose situation! I guess it depends on who you would rather have tracking your habbits. I'd personally prefer the corporations, Barnes and Noble already knows a lot about me I'm sure, so if I had to choose, definately not the US. Government! Besides it's we who are paying for their intrusions! At least at book stores we get something out of it!

  134. "You're under arrest!" by i_need_no_nick · · Score: 1

    "Sssssh! This is a library!"

  135. fight the power by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    http://www.renegadelibrarian.com/

  136. Brave New World Order by uptownguy · · Score: 1

    Its funny, isn't it, how much people think this is an either/or equation. 1984 and Brave New World were not critiques of communism -- they were critiques of increasing surveillance and other intrusions into daily lives. Its not like the Communist countries were the only ones who moved towards increasing surveillance of their citizens -- its just the speed at which they did it and the overtness of the intrusiveness was more obvious. But we're all headed in the same direction. It was obvious in 1948 when Orwell wrote his book. It is all the more obvious today.

    --


    I would have to say that explosives are the most abused technology in all of history.
  137. what's the problem? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I don't see a problem with this... meaning I see no problem with bugging systems and tracking usage under a specific investigation through a warrant. I also don't see a problem with the gag order, it just makes sense. I only have a problem with arbitrarily using this, and especially open ended tracking. That really applies to any criminal investigation however.

  138. When they catch somebody by phorm · · Score: 3, Funny

    Agent #1: You're under arrest

    Librarian: Shhhh

    Agent #1: You have the right to be silent

    Librarian: Shhhh

    Agent #1: Somebody shut that librarian up

    Agent #2: Shhhhh

    Agent #1: Not that way you idiot...

    1. Re:When they catch somebody by rtscts · · Score: 1

      <Dan Aykroyd />Get her!

  139. Note the irony. by drdink · · Score: 3, Insightful
    Only one jurisdiction, the District of Columbia, requires that a public library notify a patron when the library is served with a court order to turn over the patron's records.

    I'm glad a stupid law from DC has an exception in DC. I wouldn't want my representatives in DC to be subject to the same stupid laws as me. Funny how everybody seems to forget that before 9/11, there were FBI oversight hearings going on and they were being blackballed in the media.

    Note to FBI: I haven't been to a library in a while so don't even bother.

    --
    Beware, Nugget is watching... See?
  140. The FBI can't do that... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    GAG orders are a direct violation of the 1st Ammendment's right of freedom of speech.

  141. Is this Carnivore? Does it work on a mac? by Xyonz · · Score: 1

    Does anyone know if this is carnivore? I wonder if this tracking software works on both PCs and Macs, or if the FBI has bothered to develop it for Macs, since the installed base is less. Public Macs might still be safe. Does anyone know what Hartford Library has?

  142. wash out by binarybum · · Score: 1


    Help show the FBI that "public" library does not oblige them to check out "private" reading habits. Practice information wash-out techniques by checking out a random book each time you go after searching for : explosives OR nuclear physics OR anarchy OR islam OR communism OR jihad

    This solution is two-fold in that it helps decrease the effectiveness of FBI sniffing as well prevents real threats from checking out these books while you have them.

    Of course this is all futile if you forget to wear your foil hat to the library.

    --
    ôó
  143. Cable and DSL connections too. by Foamy · · Score: 1
    I bet the are bugging new cable modem and DSL installations as well.

    Some Background:
    About 4 months ago I got a new ATT cable connection. I am a researcher and many universities use automatic proxy configuration (.pac) files that permit access to restircted information. For example if you want to see the content at http://www.nature.com you need a personal subscription, or an institutional subscription. If you have an institutional subscription and are physically located at that institution, then somewhere at the top of the page, it says what institution you are logged in as. For example, if I am at the University of Washington and visit nature.com, at the top of the page it will say, "Institution: Univ of Washington". If I try nature.com from home, then it just thinks I'm Joe Blow unless I have an automatic proxy setup that routes me through the University.

    So I get my new cable modem installed and I decide to check out a paper at pnas.org. Remember, I am at home on the couch and I don't have a proxy setup at all (besides, I'm using Chimera which doesn't support it).

    Well lo and behold, when I bring up pnas.org, I am connected as....drum roll....Federal Bur Inv and I have complete access to the site. I have a screenshot somewhere that I could dig up.

    Spooky. The only thing I can guess is that when you get a new connection it is automatically proxied through the FBI so they can monitor your activity and see if you are connecting to the chatroom at www.ilovehezbollah.com

    The next day, everything was back to normal.

  144. Here's How To Solve It... GUARANTEED! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    All we'd hav to do is start borrowing & talking up
    some of the "dangerous" books (is there a list of
    same online... yet?)

    We wouldn't have to actually any of -read- them...
    just -borrow- them on our personal library.

    If -everybody- did that, then nobody would bother
    tracking library loans after this was noticed...

    (Didn't the Danes do a similar thing, eg after
    the Nazis insisted that Jews wear a Yellow Star,
    possibly after the Danish king of the time lead
    by pinning one on his own coat...? Love those
    Danes! Note that they are also ahead in alterna-
    tive energy, et al. Worth focussing our atten-
    tion on...)

  145. Try this... by Warlock48 · · Score: 1

    Every library should put this sign next to their computers:

    WARNING! Computers may be bugged by FBI!
    (If this sign disappears, it means they *are* bugged)

    If the FBI arrives with their big shoes, they will either have to leave the sign (and people will still know they *may* be bugged), or take it down (and people will know for sure that they *are* bugged right now).

  146. Re:Simple Solution: Take Computers out of Librarie by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    You probably steal music homo. He trolled you.

  147. Just delete the info? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Can't the librarians permanently delete the check-out information after a book is returned? Why would anyone need to keep that info after the book is returned?

    1. Re:Just delete the info? by Subgroove · · Score: 2, Informative

      This is done, acctually. A measure that was instituted in most circulation databases (Horizon, etc.) prior to the 9/11 hesteria. Law enforcment agencies trying to use patron's records against them in court is no new thing. Only the books which are currently checked out, any problem items, and any requests which have been placed and not filled are on a patron's record. As a book is checked in, the trail of it ever being on one's record dissapears. As a result of this preventative measure, not much information is still available. For the most part, law enforcment agencies are really reaching when they go to retrieve a person's library record to see what books they have checked out. Whether or not the FBI gains anything from such assinine seizures is unimportant, the acquisition of information on a patron's account is illegal and unconstitutional. PERIOD! Gag order be damned! In fact, I hope the FBI come walking into my branch asking for a list of records so I can tell them to sod off!

    2. Re:Just delete the info? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Thank you for a great response to my question. I'm very glad the information is often deleted, to keep it out of the hands of the wrong people. I agree with your assessment of its unconstitutionality. Thanks again.

  148. From the perspective of a Librarian by Subgroove · · Score: 5, Insightful

    I am a librarian, and nothing pisses myself and my fellow librarians off more than the government, religious action groups, or any other group of ignorant fools trying to stomp on the very ideals that have made this country what it is. The problem is that over the past decade these groups have only increased in numbers. The Patriot Act (as if enforcing or acquiescing to such assinine acts is a show true patriotism...) is just the latest (and most visible) in a long line of such infingments upon our civil liberties. As you can see in the link to the American Library Association website, the ALA has numerous lawsuits pending against the FBI regarding such draconian acts. All of the librarians I know are violently opposed to this act. Those who aren't; how dare they call themselves librarians! WE are commited to the preservation of knowledge and making said knowledge available to the masses. Any attempt to censor what a person may choose to read or persecution (and that is exactly what this is) of a person for their choice of reading goes against everything we stand for. There are countless librarians out there who are fighting this tooth and nail, often at the risk of our own jobs, to protect the civil liberties these acts attempt to toss in the gutter. I for one can not believe the librarians mentioned in this article are not screaming bloody murder at this heinous act. If you are opposed to these "patriotic" acts which "protect" our nation from unsubstantiated threats (and I know most of us /.ers do) talk to your local libraian about what you can do to FIGHT, contact the ALA and see how you can help, write your local newspaper, and most of all CONTACT YOUR REPRESENTATIVE and tell them how YOU were NOT represented when this was passed. This MUST be fought! This MUST be beaten! Otherwise we will lose much more than we have already lost. "Librarians are the secret masters of the world. They control information. Don't ever piss one off." -Spider Robinson

  149. What can I/We do to remove this law? Resources? by softmoo · · Score: 1

    What can the average joe do to stop this law? Does anyone have an online petition page, or a preformated letter to send to my congressman, or any type of webpage that would help me do something against this law?
    Resources??

    Thanks, softmoo

  150. Re: ebook copy? by cheekyboy · · Score: 0

    http://globalsense.info/globalsense.html#free

    Heres some samples chapters in PDF.

    --
    Liberty freedom are no1, not dicks in suits.
  151. EFF Pioneer award in 2000: "Librarians Everywhere" by geekotourist · · Score: 3, Informative
    From the press release
    "Librarians Everywhere": Karen Schneider (Technical Director of the Shenendehowa Public Library, Clifton, NY) has been chosen to accept this award on behalf of and as a representative of librarians around the world fighting for the public's right to free expression in cyberspace. These librarians have also been on the front-line working to prevent censorship of the Internet in libraries, privacy of check-out records, and equity of access to all information contained in the library. These librarians act from a strong core ethic. Their individual actions show admirable bravery as they stand up for intellectual freedom and democracy though in many cases, their jobs are on the line.
    (emphasis added). I don't doubt the EFF will do what it can to help librarians fight this. To help the EFF, donate.
  152. Re: download commonsense here.... by cheekyboy · · Score: 0

    http://www.kilmerr.com/ebooks.html

    The PDB palm version can be found here as well as others.....

    All free , and anonymous.

    Enjoy.

    --
    Liberty freedom are no1, not dicks in suits.
  153. Re:What can I/We do to remove this law? Resources? by Subgroove · · Score: 1

    The Office for Intellectual Freedom at 800-545-2433, extension 4223. IF you call them, I am sure they will be glad to get you in touch with people who are fighting this or tell you what the average Joe can do about this. subgroove

  154. A one minute a month solution: easy to do by geekotourist · · Score: 2
    A very good suggestion, and it takes very little time. Now, lets wait for the FBI to order every librarian to never answer any question about this issue...

    FBI directive No-1-Amendment:

    Any librarian or library employee, when asked a question that includes any one or more of these words or phrases, must answer with the phrase "42 Mu Skidoo" and then immediately turn around, walk into a private office, and call us at 1800ISpyUSA. Suspicious words include: FBI, Patriot, Act, Privacy, Bill (including "Bill Gates"), Rights, Amendment, '4th amendment', Search, Secure, Persons, Watch, McCarthy, East Germany, 'Your Papers']
  155. FBI by Andrewkov · · Score: 2

    Damn FBI .. Thank God I'm not American.

  156. Re:Simple Solution: Take Computers out of Librarie by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Dear God, are there really people who think poor people, or others who for whatever reason don't otherwise have Net access, shouldn't have access through the local public library? Aunt Maude needs information not available on her local library's stacks, what, she is supposed to take a bus to the library in Pacoima?? Or wait 3 weeks for the interlibrary loan (requiring the physical book to be transported by smog-belching, fuel-consuming trucks)? Aside from the fact that poor and rich alike are equally entitled to government services such as libraries, it's cheaper taxwise to let people Google their little hearts out than it is either to buy books or to pay reference librarians. Besides, libraries will have to rely on patron Internet access even more, as their budgets are further squeezed by unfunded mandates -- such as the unreimbursed costs of responding to however many search warrants and subpoenas.

  157. get around it. by Suppafly · · Score: 2

    I believe libraries have a way around this though if they don't keep your borrowing habits stored any where. If they have this infomation, they have to turn it over, but I don't believe they have to keep this information at all if they don't want to. I know the library here is attempting to do that. Its easier to just not keep track of such information, than it is to try and provide it and deal with constitutional rights issues. IANAL(ibrarian) though.

  158. Re:From the perspective of another Librarian by jessamyn · · Score: 1
    > All of the librarians I know are violently opposed to this act.

    I'll have to agree with my librarian colleague. There are many problems with the PATRIOT Act. to name just a few...
    1. it violates many library confidentiality laws that exist at the state level, it's extra-legal unecessarily
    2. it completely destroys the bond of trust that exists between a librarian and a patron. it's no one's business what you read and many libraries ensure patron confidentiality by not saving checkout records once a book had been returned [let's see Blockbuster do that!]. Many libraries are aggressively stepping this up post-PATRIOT
    3. in cases of proven threat, or with due cause and due process, this information on known suspects has been available via a subpoena. This is just a random way to spy on everyone, cast a wide net and look like you're being tough on crime.
    4. Hear the one about the guy brought in by the feds for looking at info on batteries?!

    The ACLU and the ALA demanded information on just how the PATRIOT Act was being implemented, looking for stats on how often it was being invoked, etc, and the DoJ basically refused. Creepily, librarians post-PATRIOT are suddenly much more arrestable than they were this time last year.

    further reading: The Search and Seizure of Electronic Information: The Law Before and After the USA Patriot Act [pdf]
  159. Patriotism is the last refuge of a scoundrel. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Samuel Johnson, according to Boswell's "Life of Johnson" 44 Vol. v. Chap. ix. 1775.

    http://www.bartleby.com/100/249.html

  160. Solution by PhilHibbs · · Score: 2
    librarians can't tell anyone - not even other librarians or you.
    Ask the librarian every time, and as soon as they switch from asying "no" to saying "I'm not allowed to disclose such warrants" ...
  161. Re: download commonsense here.... by MrFredBloggs · · Score: 1

    or here, if you don't want to have to download proprietary rubbish just to look at some ascii characters!

  162. Boston Public Library by donsaklad · · Score: 1

    At Boston Public Library, Carolyn Coulter is a good person
    for a discussion about how to improve the set up there...
    [ http://www.bpl.org/general/management.htm ]
    Carolyn Coulter
    Applications Manager
    Systems Office
    617-859-2233
    ccoulter@bpl.org

    Frank Altieri
    Assistant Systems Officer
    Systems Office
    617-859-2023
    faltieri@bpl.org

    James Frazier
    Network and Server Manager
    Systems Office
    617-859-2022
    jfrazier@bpl.org

    John Pelose
    Coordinator Special Services and Locations
    Systems Office
    617-859-2021
    jpelose@bpl.org

    Michael Tsigelman
    Assistant Supervisor of Computer Services
    Systems Office
    617-859-2399
    mtsigelman@bpl.org

    Cynthia Phillips
    Technology Implementation and Training Officer
    Community Library Services Office
    617-859-2377
    [ http://www.bpl.org/general/management.htm ]

    Weblog guide to problematical library use
    http://GuideToProblematicalLibraryUse.WebLogs.com/ stories

  163. No safety in the UK (or anywhere) by jusdisgi · · Score: 1

    No....it still happens....its just the same people (the US) And when necessary, they drop the dime to your local authorities, ala Echelon. Isn't it ironic, that the Internet that we cheered (and sometimes still cheer) for setting us all free by being bigger and more widespread than any single government, now has the potential to actually enslave us by making every government bigger and more widespread? --paranoid bastard.

    --
    Given a choice between free speech and free beer, most people will take the beer.