Posted by
timothy
on from the mmmm-lcds-are-great dept.
SunPin writes "Slashdotters are doomed. An article from Reuters describes serious health problems from using CRTs (they call them "VDT") for too long. Studies show that we need more studies." So go ahead and expense a three-head LCD setup for your desk.
don't do it: get yourself two more more LCD displays and build a huge vDisply like mine: 2560x1024.
dave
Re:Great!
by
Anonymous Coward
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· Score: 0
Well, I use ADI MicroScan4V's, and set them up to 800x600, and do ok. I tried 1024x768, and found that too small on these little monitors. I don't sit in front of the computer all day, I have a day job in a warehouse, where I get a lot of physical exercise, sometimes more than one would really need. So, when I get in front of the computers, I'm resting up. I have a total of 5 computers in one room, and a couple of laptops elsewhere. No doubt that the laptop displays are harder on the eyes:-(
Hmm. Please tell me more. I couldn't find anything on google. Sounds very interesting. Could save me a lot of money.
-- If you don't understand any of my sayings, come to me in private and I shall take you in my German mouth.
In Other news ....
by
EvilCabbage
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· Score: 5, Funny
Scientific leaders today made the discovery that too much of anything, might just be bad for you.
Yes, even beer.
Re:In Other news ....
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Anonymous Coward
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· Score: 0
Yes, even breathing.
Re:In Other news ....
by
kin_korn_karn
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· Score: 0, Offtopic
Barry White disagrees:
Song: Can't Get Enough of Your Love, Babe
[spoken intro] I've heard people say that Too much of anything is not good for you, baby But I don't know about that There's many times that we've loved We've shared love and made love It doesn't seem to me like it's enough There's just not enough of it There's just not enough
Re:In Other news ....
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Anonymous Coward
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· Score: 0
Yes, even beer.
BLASPHEMY!
Re:In Other news ....
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Anonymous Coward
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· Score: 0
Study this!
by
Blackneto
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· Score: 5, Interesting
It's not just the CRT, it's the SITTING. All day in one position, gee I wonder if thats going to have an effect on you. The only damage I've had from sitting in front of a monitor at work for 10 years is 100 more pounds on my frame than I should have.
-- Ursula Andress, Catherine Deneuve, and Charo, twice...
Re:Study this!
by
e8johan
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· Score: 5, Insightful
Ok, they mainly complain about the screen, but the conclusions says that it is sitting in front of a computer that is the problem, not radiation from a CRT.
From this I draw two conclusions: 1) the original article is better than the rewritten summary and 2) LCDs is not the solution.
I have two tips myself to solve the problem: 1) get an adjustable dest that you can stand or sit at and 2) make sit-ups each morning and evening to avoid back pains. These two points helped me!
-- Ursula Andress, Catherine Deneuve, and Charo, twice...
Re:Study this!
by
Anonymous Coward
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· Score: 0
sitting in front of a computer that is the problem, not radiation from a CRT.
How much power is inside those particle accelerators?
I was repairing a 19" trintron unit last night when the deflection circuit decided to quit from the defective yoke. The electron beam was strong enough to vaporize the grid wire and burned a hole in the center. Now there is a nice shadow of the wire bouncing within the tube.
Re:Study this!
by
Alphi1
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· Score: 2, Interesting
This is the thing that bugs me about this type of "study"...
They have two years (so they claim) worth of data that they ASSUME is due to the CRT, and nothing else...
But my experience has been that people who look at a CRT all day also tend to have other things in common. They (generally) also sit all day. They (generally) sit in close proximity to a computer. Heck, they even (usually) work with those new-fangled devices, called a keyboard and a mouse.;)
But none of those are to blame for what they've seen, it MUST be the CRT.
But do they have "control" cases, where people are sitting at a desk, with a computer (and mouse and keyboard) that DOESN'T have a monitor (a CRT)? Not terribly likely.
It's not just the CRT, it's the SITTING. All day in one position, gee I wonder if thats going to have an effect on you. The only damage I've had from sitting in front of a monitor at work for 10 years is 100 more pounds on my frame than I should have.
10 years and only a 100 pounds? Heck, I've been sitting in front of this monitor for the last 20 years. Continuously.:-P They've had to replace it a couple of times. The weight's not what's bad, it's these damn IVs and catheters. I can't walk anymore (not that I've really tried), my eyes can stand the sunlight, and I don't even remember my name anymore. But other than that, no real effects from sitting in front of a CRT, no.
Then get out and jog / walk for an hour a day. When I take my lunch I go to the gym and exercise with my coworkers- It helps break up my day, allows me time to think, reduces my stress, and in the year since I've started I've gone from 250 to 180 (and now can run 5 miles in 45 minutes). Oh, and the ladies like it too...
it's not the CRT at all. The article doesn't eve nreally do anything but hint at that... it's just the typical slashdot-make-something-up-itis that happens.. there are thousands of professionals that have been sitting in front of CRT's, multiple CRT's, for well over 20 years.. other than being out of shape because they are more comatose than when sleeping there are no documented problems.. Talk about a good source for test subjects.. thousands upon thousands that happily sit in front of 1 to 3 monitors for 10 hours a day or more.. granted eye strain was bad in the early days.. but now when you can crank the monitors up to 80hz that is at an end.
-- Do not look at laser with remaining good eye.
Re:Study this!
by
IIRCAFAIKIANAL
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· Score: 5, Insightful
Interesting points. Could be junk science. Personally, I never believe headlines and I won't even pay attention until there have been several studies from independant sources.
The problem is we see this stuff published every day - it often gets retracted, but that rarely makes the news.
-- Robots are everywhere, and they eat old people's medicine for fuel.
Re:Study this!
by
NorthDude
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· Score: 1, Offtopic
Sitting all day is really bad.
My belly is the proof.
--
I'd rather be sailing...
Re:Study this!
by
damien_kane
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· Score: 0, Offtopic
Hell, I gained 150 lbs sitting in front of computers for the past 15 years...
Bear in mind, however, I was about 70lbs when I was 7 (I think that's about right anyways), so being 220 now @ 22 isn't too bad...
I'm 39 years old. I was 205lbs when I got married in 1985, I am now 265lbs and I go for walks. I'm a Systems Architect (System Admin that designs solutions, programs, and admin). Anyway yes you are stuck in an office sitting down. My problem is it did lead to prostatitis once. So if all of you should insist on a comfy chair!
Re:Study this!
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Anne_Nonymous
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· Score: 0, Offtopic
Good god, at that rate of gain you'll be 650 lbs by retirement age! How are you going to get into your motorhome?
I used to get neck/shoulder tension leading to headaches, then I learned to sit properly and stretch from time to time. No more problems.
They make no mention of whether these people are actually all using CRTs or also LCDs - in fact the article says nothing about CRTs therefore we can assume they mean any type of computer display.
What about TV? Surely we'd expect similar problems from hours of TV every day? That is if the display is at fault as opposed to other factors.
Poor quality furniture is also often at fault. Ever tried to get a decent chair or desk out of your typical corporation? In one case I eventually had to threaten legal action to get a decent chair.
Re:Study this!
by
Blackneto
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· Score: 0, Offtopic
well i'm just a bit younger. I was 240 when I got married 8 years ago, now i'm 300. Of course I've been big since playing football in high school, I was 265 then. Being 6'2" helps with the distribution a little. My biggest problem though is inactivity. Work a regular 40hr week at a desk, another 5-15hrs/week consulting on the side and raising four kids. Not a lot of time for personal improvement. I'm sure many here can relate to that kind of schedule. But I walk them to school in the mornings and play with them when I have time. So thats a little.
-- Ursula Andress, Catherine Deneuve, and Charo, twice...
I agree with you about the TV. Most people in the States have been watching TV since they were born. Normally we don't sit as close as we do to our monitors but it's still a lot of exposure. The article was kind of light on substance. I believe it was just another trolling attempt by the editors.
-- Ursula Andress, Catherine Deneuve, and Charo, twice...
I have two tips myself to solve the problem: 1) get an adjustable dest that you can stand or sit at and 2) make sit-ups each morning and evening to avoid back pains. These two points helped me!
The first tip is a great one, which will save you fro a lot of pain, if you have back problems. The second tip is a disaster, as any chiropractor will tell you. Don't do situps if you have a back condition.
But you wouldn't take medical advice from/. anyhow, would you ?
-- Oh, I can't help quoting you because everything that you said rings true
Re:Study this!
by
leshert
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· Score: 3, Informative
Nothing in the article (as opposed to the Slashdot summary) attributed the damage to the CRT itself. In fact, they never mention the word CRT!
A video display terminal (VDT) refers to the whole workstation, not just the monitor.
Re:Study this!
by
Anonymous Coward
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· Score: 0
I've seen office monitors and they are almost always set at 60hz.. thats why!
I'd rather take advice from slashdot than advice from a Chiropracter. And, I'd rather take advice from a Chiropracter, than second hand Chiropractic advice from Slashdot!
Actually, it depends on how large your frame is. There are plenty of people who are 6' and weighing 220 that are in perfect shape (of course, they are are also built like linebackers). Don't believe those stupid little charts that tell you what weight you should be at what height. Most doctors will tell you that they are way off. As always, consult your physician before believing anything on/. related to your health.
--
The object of war is not to die for your country but to make the other bastard die for his. - Gen George S Patton
Mental symptoms such as lethargy, anxiety and "reluctance to go to work," as well as sleep-related problems including insomnia and fatigue, were most common among workers who spent more than 5 hours a day glued to their computer screen.
These are the typical signs of burn-out (possibly from coding - but burnout from any work)... associating it to have a monitor in front of you is just plain near sighted (pardon the pun).
Have they made studies on people who sit for hours in front of their computers but *aren't* working? (/.ers come to mind =)
Interesting points. Could be junk science [junkscience.com]. Personally, I never believe headlines and I won't even pay attention until there have been several studies from independant sources.
I would be wary of anything I read on junkscience.com in the same way I'd be wary of the speculative Reuters medicine story. Its interesting to note who the author/editor of that web page is (Steven Miller) and who pays his salary (Cato Institute) and who the large contributors that particular think tank is (RJ Reynolds & Philip Morris tobacco companies).
While the Cato Institute does occasionally produce good research, its interests lay in the direction that its big business contributors take it. As for Steven Miller, I believe that his book and his website do bring up good counterpoints for the sensationilistic scaremongering of some media outlets and academic institutions but I've read his book and its pretty obvious to me what his agenda and interests are - take those articles on JunkScience.com with a grain of salt.
Re:Study this!
by
Anonymous Coward
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· Score: 0
> Don't do situps if you have a back condition.
Good advice, but don't dismiss the idea altogether, just do crunches. They are better for your back and more effective anyway.
2) make sit-ups each morning and evening to avoid back pains.
Since sit-ups constitute a highly repetitive task, wouldn't it be better if I just write a program to do them for me? That way, it'll free up my time for things which require more thought.:-)
--
GreyPoopon
--
Why is it I can write insightful comments but can't come up with a clever signature?
I'm 6'1...
My point was that how much weight you gained is irrelevant... you have to take into account what age and what weight you were before to make an accurate picture
Re:Study this!
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Anonymous Coward
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· Score: 0
Go ahead. You won't be missed.
Re:Study this!
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Anonymous Coward
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· Score: 0
sorry, your advice not to do situps is incorrect. most back problems are psychosomatic anyways (as i've discovered myself). avoiding activities just makes things worse. personally, i do yoga every morning.
More to do with diet, i.e. coke and chips all days makes a person fat. You can be skinny with no excersice. Its about energy-input vs energy-output.
The motorcar is the source of all evil.
This is the thing that bugs me about this type of "study"... They have two years (so they claim) worth of data that they ASSUME is due to the CRT, and nothing else... But my experience has been that people who look at a CRT all day also tend to have other things in common. They (generally) also sit all day. They (generally) sit in close proximity to a computer. Heck, they even (usually) work with those new-fangled devices, called a keyboard and a mouse.;) But none of those are to blame for what they've seen, it MUST be the CRT. But do they have "control" cases, where people are sitting at a desk, with a computer (and mouse and keyboard) that DOESN'T have a monitor (a CRT)? Not terribly likely.
This is the thing that bugs me about this type of "reader"... They have several minutes (so I assume) to read an article posted to Slashdot, and rather than actually do so, ASSUME the article is talking about what's in the summary only, and nothing else... But my experience has been that people who look at an article on/. and actually read it tend to know that it's got nothing to do with the summary.
Just for the record (as pointed out in another reply) this link is to Junk Science which is a website maintained by Steve Milloy, who is associated with the Cato Institute, a corporate funded think tank. This website often has a subtle right-wing, corporate friendly bias.
Often the topics stray from the root scientific questions. For example - what the hell does a story about the Animal Liberation Front have to do with junk science? I fully support animal testing, but this is a tale of morality and politics, not science.
Basically, whenever you read anything published anywhere, just ask three questions: "Where is the evidence, how much evidence is there, and can it and has it been duplicated elsewhere?"
-- Robots are everywhere, and they eat old people's medicine for fuel.
That's right... but if you do the sit ups before you have the back condition, you'll strengthen your back muscles so you don't get the back condition in the first place. He was talking about preventative measures, not treatments.
Nah, car's fine-- it's the traffic. I live in beautiful Los Angeles, where driving anywhere during the day takes twice as long as it should (on a GOOD day).
-- If a job's not worth doing, it's not worth doing right.
so this is why my eyes and my dick hurt at the same time after an intensive evening of downloading all kinds-o-stuff from the web?
seriously, what's so new about this study. we all knew already that your eyes start hurting when watching a monitor for too long... or is that something that distinguishes a real nerd from the avergae joe computer user: the ability to withstand prolongued exposure to CRTs...
It wouldn't matter if you did. The radiation from the monitor has probably sterilized us all anyway.
Re:Oh!
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Anonymous Coward
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· Score: 0
But it should be making you go blind too, thus lowering your standards. You've just got to get a 1:1 ratio of your decay to the decay of your minimum standards.
The article doesn't mention or theorize why these symptoms are occuring. We don't know that LCDs are necessarily a solution to the problem, even if they're generally better on the eyes.
Mental symptoms such as lethargy, anxiety and "reluctance to go to work," as well as sleep-related problems including insomnia and fatigue, were most common among workers who spent more than 5 hours a day glued to their computer screen.
Maybe it's just from staring at a fixed object without moving for long periods of time? Staring at a textbook for five hours would probably give me those symptoms as well in the short term.
Yes, the person who posted this article took some liberty equating "VDT" with "CRT" -- to the point where it is genuinely misleading. The referenced article talks about problems that logically seem to be independent of the actual display technology, and I presume that their use of the term "VDT" is meant to purposely encompass all types of monitors, CRT and LCD included.
Irrespective of this, you should still buy yourself a badass three panel LCD. At least when you collapse in a quivering pile you'll have a damned fine display for your family to inherit.
I'd like to see the questions they have made...
Have they really made any difference between CRT and LCD? Have they just asked about "How many hours you spend in front of a monitor"?
And after all, I guess there are a lot of reasons for "reluctance to go to work". I have it sometimes indipendently by the fact that I have an LCD.. it is more about scarse work satisfaction and mismanagement:-(
Sounds like a classic case of SJS (Shitty Job Syndrome) to me. Vacations and alcohol tend to be the most commonly perscribed treatments.
I'm sure another study would easily find that people who are generally dissatisfied with their jobs feel exactly the same way regardless of what they actually do.
And in other news, studies show that eating ice cream increases your risk of being attacked by a shark. (Think about that for a moment...) =Smidge=
Mental symptoms such as lethargy, anxiety and "reluctance to go to work," as well as sleep-related problems including insomnia and fatigue, were most common among workers who spent more than 5 hours a day glued to their computer screen.
I wonder about those people they surveyed... were they all using Windows? Perhaps there might be a different factor they are overlooking in the study!
dochood
Re:Cause?
by
Anonymous Coward
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· Score: 0
During the time of data collection, the number of LCD users in any random sample would not have been significant (this was back in 1995 - 1997: common monitors for workerbees were SVGA 14" and 15"; show-off bosses got 17" monsters).
I'm sure another study would easily find that people who are generally dissatisfied with their jobs feel exactly the same way regardless of what they actually do.
You said it, man. I install telecom/data wiring and equipment (no desk, no chair, no CRT) and I have all those symptoms.
-- If a job's not worth doing, it's not worth doing right.
Sounds like a classic case of SJS (Shitty Job Syndrome) to me
If SJS really is just the first stage of PWS (Postal Workers Syndrome), my office will be getting a lot more interesting in the coming year...
Thinking of investing in Kevlar....
Honestly, periodically rearranging your desk can really help with one's sanity. A little cubicle Feng Shui. Though not going home and sitting in front of my computer for another 5 hours after work would probably help too... *sigh*
One cause may be the choice of on-screen colours. Most applications, in the Windows world at least, have black text on a white background. This means users by default are basically looking straight at a light, which can't be good.
Change your colour scheme inside applications. For editors, I find yellow text on a blue background works great (a la Turbo [Pascal|C]). Override the default CSS file for website with too much brightness or small fonts (in Opera, press ctrl-G to toggle).
As for the selection of colours, you want to pick ones that contrast well against each other, but aren't too bright. Imagine rgb colours as a 3-space, each "primary" colour is an axis, going from, say no red at the origin, to as red as it gets at the other end of the axis. By selecting three values for primary colours (r,g,b), you pick a point in this 3-space. The distance between colours in 3-space is their contrast. In fact if you know which one colour you want, you can imagine a sphere surrounding it. Any colour inside the sphere won't contrast well with your chosen colour, anything on the sphere or farther away should contrast well. You can also find a maximum distance from the origin, past which the colour is too bright and leads to eye strain.
I find that careful choices about colours gives another 2-3 hours of computer use a day. Maybe that's a bad thing...:)
or red text on a blue background - talk about comfort.
Re:Cause?
by
Anonymous Coward
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· Score: 0
Yes, and some study "showed" that taller people (usually men) are more intelligent and thus get better jobs, hmm...
Better than flat screen: get one of these
by
rufusdufus
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· Score: 3, Interesting
I just got a new Hitachi CP-SX5500W. It is a bright projection LCD that does better than 1280x1024. I am using it for my main computer display. I now have a 72+ inch display. Woohoo! No CRT strain here!
Re:Better than flat screen: get one of these
by
digitalsushi
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· Score: 3, Insightful
The idea is so cool; many of us have considered this before. We're all afraid of one thing, though- isn't the bulb replacement a killer on the wallet?
-- slashdot: where everyone yells sarcastic metaphors to themselves to understand the issue
Re:Better than flat screen: get one of these
by
Hadlock
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· Score: 3, Informative
yeah, in theroy, the bulb is about $400, and lasts somewhere on the order of 1000-5000 hours. if you can limit your computer time to 5 hours a day, the life of the bulb is somthing like 4 years.
until the price of the bulb comes down signifigantly, these will generally be restricted to low use applications, primarily, the media room, and the office meeting room.
Re:Better than flat screen: get one of these
by
browman
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· Score: 1
Not bad if you're a vampire I suppose, or otherwise disinterested in natural light.
--
You fool! You've given cheese to a lactose intolerant volcano god! Do you know what that means?
Re:Better than flat screen: get one of these
by
Rolo+Tomasi
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· Score: 3, Informative
Great idea. The bulbs last how long? 500 hours? And they cost how much? $400 a piece?
-- Did you know you can fertilize your lawn with used motor oil?
Re:Better than flat screen: get one of these
by
broller
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· Score: 2
if you can limit your computer time to 5 hours a day, the life of the bulb is somthing like 4 years.
So realistically, 18 months.:)
Besides, for $5k initial investment, reguardless of the price for the bulbs, I don't see how the cost will ever justify itself in the long run. Though I guess I would cut down on computer usage, because it's not like I'd want to sit and stare at a wall for 5+ hours anyway.
What I'm waiting for are (affordable) personal displays. Something that will let me wear a display as easily as I wear headphones would be nice. That would solve the space, privacy, portability and probably the power consumtion problems that normal monitors have.
Does this product exist yet?
Re:Better than flat screen: get one of these
by
davechen
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· Score: 1
I've got a NEC LT158 projector that I'm using as a monitor. The bulb is rated at 1500 hours. Sure it's pricey to replace, but what do I care? I ain't payin for it.
Re:Better than flat screen: get one of these
by
HoneyBunchesOfGoats
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· Score: 1
A friend of mine did this. He took his extra college scholarship money and got a BenQ projector and the largest Bose floor speakers one could buy. His room is like a small movie theater now, only much cooler. (Imagine playing Counter-strike in a movie theater...)
Re:Better than flat screen: get one of these
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Anonymous Coward
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· Score: 0
Does this product exist yet?
Yes, but it costs more than this projector.
Re:Better than flat screen: get one of these
by
shepd
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· Score: 2
>Yes, but it costs more than this projector.
No, it doesn't.
i-O displays will sell you an HMD with XGA resoltion for between $1k and $2k (IIRC -- they don't have this model for sale right now). They have an SVGA unit for under $700 right now, if you don't need the resolution.
-- If you could be told what you can see or read, then it follows that you could be told what to say or think - BoC
Re:Better than flat screen: get one of these
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Anonymous Coward
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· Score: 0
Does anyone make a 1600*1200 projector for under 10 grand? Also what kind of refresh rates do these babies put out?
Re:Better than flat screen: get one of these
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Anonymous Coward
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· Score: 0
Those are cool and all, but I'm still waiting for my seethrough HUD glasses. Though, if I'm watching pr0n while strolling down the sidewalk, I guess I'd want the image to only be visible from the inside... Is that even possible?
What ever happened to those glasses that identified objects and locations and labeled them for you?
Re:Better than flat screen: get one of these
by
shepd
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· Score: 1
>Those are cool and all, but I'm still waiting for my seethrough HUD glasses
Then you want the sony glasstron. It's expensive, and if you're not in Japan, you'll probably have to order it here and that'll cost $$$.:-(
>Is that even possible?
Yup... they're mirrored for your privacy. I don't know if the mirror is that effective though.
I've tried a prototype unit and the transparency function is top notch, though.
-- If you could be told what you can see or read, then it follows that you could be told what to say or think - BoC
My father allways told me if I watched too much TV or used my computer too much my eyes would end up beeing squared. No mentioning of that in the article, so I guess he was wrong.
-- Not Buzzword 2.0 compliant. Please speak english.
> My father allways told me if I watched too much TV or used my computer too much my eyes would end up beeing squared.
You misunderstood him - he actually said too much TV and computer would make you grow up to be a square.
-- Sheesh, evil *and* a jerk. -- Jade
Re: Squared eyes
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Anonymous Coward
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· Score: 0
My eyes were squared, I had 2 and now I have 4.
Hardy har har.
or, rdrr for you Simpsons fans.
LSD^H^H^HLCD
by
RAMMS+EIN
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· Score: 3, Interesting
Fortunately, I've mostly ditched CRTs for LCD. I use my laptop to control all the computers I administer, and I connect the CRT I have only in emergency cases, i.e. when the machine won't run sshd so that I can't log in to it. LCDs (I think they are more correctly called TFTs?) are energy-efficient, produce next to no radiation, are small, and don't flicker. On the flip side, they're more expensive and less flexible (resolutionwise) than CRTs. However, 1024x768 is the only resolution I use, and I'm glad to pay a little more for all the goodies I get.
--- Shaw's Principle:
Build a system that even a fool can use, and only a fool will want to use it.
As a read it I felt like it was answering my problems. Through college I gradualy found my self in front of computers for greater amounts of time and now feel like as they describe, I can't sleep for crap any more. I ether sleep for 15hrs a day or don't sleep at all. Hell it's 5am and I'm up. I was tired a bit ago, but no more, I have to study for a test but don't feel like it, but I'm up because I'm wanting to study.
Well guess it's time to make coffee
Re:I like this study
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mshurpik
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· Score: 2, Interesting
I've noticed this. I think it's because sitting in front of the computer basically takes no energy. You can easily pull an all-nighter clicking and browsing around. Then you crash.
Any normal activity, like driving, shopping, going to work eventually exhausts me to the point where I want some good sleep. Coding will do that too, but video games, web browsing etc. doesn't seem to.
Re:I like this study
by
Anonymous Coward
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· Score: 1, Funny
but video games
If you don't feel like you've just run a marathon, then you're not playing the right games!:D
Couch potatos never complain of these symptoms therefor I propose that all VDU's must have no
greater resolution than 625 lines (525 in the US) and a refresh rate no greater than 50 Hz (60 Hz). Plus companies must provide seating at least 10 foot away from the computer with keyboard & mouse cables long enough to cope. Problem solved. Obviously this would cause other problems such as users wondering why they can't order pizza and have it delivered to their desk and why scratching their nuts gets the female staff so angry but these are minor issues...
Minor indeed, but cables in excess of 10 feet stretched across the office floor could be a tripping hazard. This should be modified to read wireless keyboard and mouse. Perhaps something can be done about ordering pizza.... we'll get the engineers on that immediately.
until my insurance covers the resoldering of my ibook that's needed for multi-display rather than displaying the same image on two monitors in Jaguar.
Theoretically at least, Linux could run at a higher resolution than the internal LCD. Does anyone know if this would cause permanent damage? Could I develop epilepsy and have my eyes melt out of my head anyways from the flickering on an lcd at a resolution not intended for it?
btw, kudos to the Mac On Linux team; they did one hell of a job. (better documentation for networking support would be appreciated)
-- You can't judge a book by the way it wears its hair.
No solder needed for the new (well probably not the ones released today) ibooks. A firmware script was discussed here that enabled multi-display without mirroring.
With the price drops announced today I'm finally going to make the switch. I hope they come up with a similar hack for these new ibooks with their 32MB Mobility Radeon 7500 graphics.
crt's? what??
by
mshurpik
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· Score: 5, Insightful
OMG. 20 replies so far and pretty much every one of them mentions either CRTs or LCDs.
The article mentions displays NOT ONCE.
The closest it comes is "eyestrain," which is one of several symptoms they examined.
This article is not about displays, it is about sitting in front of the computer.
"Reluctance to go to work "
by
guybarr
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· Score: 5, Funny
I can see it now:
Yes dear, I know I need to go to work and feed our kids, but , you see, those big bad monitors at work are giving me hell. And I have referenced scientific article to prove it !
people working with monitors are reluctant to go to work. scoop.
-- Working for necessity's mother.
Mental Symptoms
by
Anonymous Coward
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· Score: 5, Funny
From the article...
Mental symptoms such as... "reluctance to go to work"... were most common among workers...
Yeah right, that has nothing to do with having a prick of a manager and doing demeaning and stressful work all day for little reward.
Mental symptoms such as... "reluctance to go to work"...
Being reluctant to go to work is a mental symptom??? I thought it was the opposite!!!
-- May I use your sig please?
What factors did they take into account?
by
ifoxtrot
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· Score: 2, Interesting
Quoting from the article: '"In our study, we found a significant relationship between duration of daily VDT use and physical symptoms," even after adjusting for other factors that could influence the results, the authors write. '
I'd like to know how they account for these 'other factors'. I'm just wondering whether this could be attributed to the kind of working environment these people face... Stress is know to be a major cause of the symptoms they describe and I'm not sure how they factor that into their analysis... Nevertheless I agree that more research is necessary.
For years I have been unable to sleep properly. It's been at least 6 years, perhaps since I was 15, maybe younger. I wake up feeling energetic, sort of - able to leap over piles of junk in my room instantly. Yet for the whole day my eyes feel sleepy, like they want to sleep. And my body screams out that it's not ready for bed.
Before you say it, I already know - this sounds pretty much like I'm not getting enough excercise, and spending too much time looking at a monitor. However, even if I spend a month away from a computer, doing active outdoor activities, it still makes no difference. I think it may take longer time.
If it is true that an LCD is better for me, then I will gladly get one to end the way I feel. It's just...something...like a constant gnawing, irritation. I'm able to fall to sleep, providing I go when my body is ready. This is usually around 2-3am. Sometimes (very rarely) it can be as late as 7am before my body is ready to sleep. If I go too early I simply cannot sleep. If I go when I am ready I fall to sleep within, perhaps, 30 minutes.
I don't feel much back pain (if any) though, and my eyes almost never feel strained or saw (right now being the exception, so I'm about to go do something else).
So, is an LCD really going to reduce the effects that this article talks about?
Out of curiosity, why don't you test this out by refraining from using a computer for a period of time and seeing whether this affects how you feel? If you can't stop completely for even a day (which might mean you're completely addicted...different issue;) ), why not take regular breaks (15 mins every hour) and see whether that makes a difference?
Re:Some truth
by
Anonymous Coward
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· Score: 1, Insightful
For years I have been unable to sleep properly. It's been at least 6 years, perhaps since I was 15, maybe younger. I wake up feeling energetic, sort of - able to leap over piles of junk in my room instantly. Yet for the whole day my eyes feel sleepy, like they want to sleep. And my body screams out that it's not ready for bed.
Did you ever try going to a doctor for that? If you don't want to take medication for it I'm sure there are some things they could suggest that would help getting a sound sleep at night. Also, have you tried getting laid recently? Nothing makes me sleep better than a good 2-3 minutes of sex with my wife.:-)
Yeah, as I said before, I've gone 4 weeks (or close to) without a computer. Actually, not true. I used it for probably a total of 30 minutes during the 4 weeks, but that is so negligible I don't think it counts.
Still no change in the sleepy feeling in my eyes.
I could take breaks, but that would require discipline. Still it's an idea that may be worth trying.
Re:Some truth
by
Anonymous Coward
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· Score: 0
Don't need to married dude, just get a GF or a chick who'll be your bed-fellow (sex without the responsibility of having a gf). Nine out of ten doctors will agree that the reduced stress of not having a GF/wife will increase your lifetime by a good 5 to 10 years.
Re:Some truth
by
Anonymous Coward
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· Score: 0
1) Have your Thyroid functions checked 2) Stop drinking Coca Cola. It does aweful things to your body 3) Stop drinking fruit juice. It is badly unhealthy 4) Don't sit too closely to your monitor and computer. Both put out electromagnetic fields; sitting further away from them greatly reduces their effect on you
Well, I guess it all depends upon your choice of juice. The stuff that's really only about 30% juice + sugar/water probably isn't that good, still store-bought but 100% juice is probably somewhat better, and then you can go for juicing your own fruit, and still better by using organic fruit.
Then again, I'm not in any way even remotely qualified in this area, it's just speculation.
VDT = Video Display Terminal CRT = Cathode Ray Tube LCD = Liquid Crystal Display
In the article summary where the slashdot link leads, they don't mention anything about LCDs being more healthy than CRTs. They refer to VDPs which I would guess is a superset containing both computer systems with CRTs and LCDs.
I would be happy however if health benefits are found from using LCDs since I've had trouble convincing my friends just with the cool factor.
Of course they did. It's not like they're going to say "well thanks, I think we've researched it enough now. Let's head down to the welfare office"
</cynicism>
so close...
by
Anonymous Coward
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· Score: 0
In the article summary where the slashdot link leads, they don't mention anything about LCDs being more healthy than CRTs. They refer to VDPs which I would guess is a superset containing both computer systems with CRTs and LCDs.
YES. In fact, VDT is a superset containing ALL interactive computer systems. Where in the article did they mention ANY type of monitor??
One year after starting my job I got all the symptoms mentioned. I have to sit in front of the computer all the day (>8hrs). I had pains in my shoulders, neck, and lower back, I had eyestrain, and my index finger hurt from using the scroll wheel (that's why a 1-button-mouse is a good thing:-). I also developed some neurotic behavior including anxiety (9/11 helped much to make things worse:-(), and I didn't like the job very much, also the colleagues and the whole environment is really great - also the job is easy and well paid.
I coped with it mostly by doing one thing: sports. Since I go to the gym 3 times a week, everything went back to normal. No pain, no fear.
I no longer use my mouse wheel. It gave me significant wrist pain.:-(
You should also disable your mouse wheel. On Windows, you can do this in the Control Panel. The mouse wheel is too tempting if you leave it on but promise yourself not to use it.:-)
Sitting at a desk all day (with CRT/LCD/Sheet of paper) can make your ass fat.
Standing all day at work makes your feet hurt and causes circulation problems in your legs.
Lying in bed 24 hours a day gives you bed sores.
Drinking a quart^H^H^H^H^Hlitre (Oh, I forgot, we're being scientific here) of water every 30 minutes makes you urinate a lot.
How is this news? I think everybody knows that looking at a monitor for long periods of time hurts your eyes. As for melting them out of their sockets, well I guess that's the part that is news to me.
Not always the monitor
by
ibmhack
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· Score: 2, Insightful
I'm sure you could get some of the same symptoms from LCDs. Much of the physical problems are associated with the posture in front of the computer - people tend to hunch over when the monitor is placed wrong. Exersise helps, especially ab work to keep you sitting up straight like your momma told you too.
Coffee anyone?
by
Anonymous Coward
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· Score: 0
Now, computer dudes have sleeping problems? Could it be due to the fact, that most office worker drink more coffee than their medic considers to be safe?
Just a guess so - because I noticed sleeping difficulties if I have my last coffee at 11 pm. And I really need a scientist to tell me why...
Take it all away...
by
DarkHelmet
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· Score: 5, Funny
The more time an office worker toils in front of a computer, the more likely he or she is to suffer a host of physical, mental and sleep-related ills, Japanese researchers report.
Yeah, and if I go out and have sex, I am more likely to catch the clap or something like that...
I feel celibate enough by visiting this site 20 times a day. I feel pathetic enough oggling over female slashdotters who get karma points. Now you wanna take away my 21" CRT to boot.
To hell with you!
-- /^[A-Z0-9._%+-]+@[A-Z0-9.-]+\.[A-Z]{2,4}$/i
There are ways to avoid that
by
Nicolas42
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· Score: 3, Informative
First of all, if the problem stem from radiations coming from the screen, the farther you are from it, the less radiation you take. Since they must follow an inverse square law, even a few centimeters can make quite a difference.
Next, and perhaps more important: do NOT strain when you are looking at the screen. I spend most of my time in front of a CRT, and don't have any troubles. Take some breaks, before you eyes hurt. Even closing your eyes and resting them for a few secoonds is often enough. You can also put your cupped palms on your eyes, not touching them, elbows resting on the desk, and imagine pleasant things. Also, look out of the window from time to time.
Apart from these obvious things, there is a right way to look, and many wrong ones. Most people who have vision problems, headaches, eyestrain or pain are in this situation only because they use their eyes in a wrong way. If you want to know more about this, take a look at this site.
Unbelievable as it seems, I've cured myself of myopia, astigmatism and amblyopia in two years by using the method described in there (it's the Bates method). Besides, it's totally free, and this is a non profit site with no advertissement or such. Everything you need to know is in there
Don't take my word for it, give it a fair try, and see for yourself.
-- "Of course I'm french, why d'you think I got this outttrrrageous accent?"
Re:There are ways to avoid that
by
Dun+Malg
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· Score: 2
First of all, if the problem stem from radiations coming from the screen, the farther you are from it, the less radiation you take. Since they must follow an inverse square law, even a few centimeters can make quite a difference.
What?!? Ionizing (bad, what you'd probably call "nukular") radiation from CRTs is so infinitessimal that you are right now receiving a higher dose of ionizing radiation from the radioactive trace elements in the masonry of the building in which you sit. Eyestrain, yes. Harmful radiation? NO!Here's a nice summary of the actual scientific truth about CRTs and harmful radiation. Get a little education, willya?
-- If a job's not worth doing, it's not worth doing right.
Re:There are ways to avoid that
by
Nicolas42
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· Score: 1
I meant radiations in a broad sense. I honestly don't know if any kind of rayonnement from a screen may cause harm to the eyes. Only thing I'm saying is that if it emits any kind of 'ray', the intensity will probably go down quickly as you pull away from it.
So if anybody is worried by this kind of thing (and I wasn't, and after having read through your interesting link, I'm even less worried:), just get a little away from the screen. That's all.
-- "Of course I'm french, why d'you think I got this outttrrrageous accent?"
Re:There are ways to avoid that
by
Anonymous Coward
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· Score: 0
While I agree with you about the ionizing radiation -- there have been several studies that show significant damage at the cellular level from even something as basic as a cell phone on standby. Do some Googling.
Re:There are ways to avoid that
by
Dun+Malg
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· Score: 2
there have been several studies that show significant damage at the cellular level from even something as basic as a cell phone on standby. Do some Googling.
I've looked into this before, and none of those studies have been particularly conclusive. There are also studies that show that RF radiation doesn't do SQUAT. If a cell phone on standby can cause "significant damage", why is there no evidence of massive damage to ham radio operators(100W, 10' away)? Or people working at AM radio stations(25,000W, 50' away)? Or Signal intelligence guys like me who worked next to TLQ-17 jammers (5000W, 10 inches from my head)? The "cell phones cause brain cancer" thing is about as rational as the "power lines cause leukemia" fantasy/theory. Correlation, even STRONG corelation, proves nothing about cause.
-- If a job's not worth doing, it's not worth doing right.
I have these symptoms too but
by
supertsaar
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· Score: 2, Interesting
My feeling is that they are more likely to be caused by the fact that my job is boring, the workload is too high and most of my colleagues are dildo's.
I think many jobs that require a person to sit in front of a monitor for more than 6-7 hours a day are probably monotonous and unsatisfying.
So this accounts for the described symptoms better than any wierd electromagnetic radiation effects the post suggests (and would also mean that getting that ultra-sexy cinema display would _not_ help a bit)
Of course this does not apply to people that do some actual creative work that they like to do (programmers, video artists, whatever)
Well. Perhaps I should become a farmer or something.
People that work in factories sitting at a desk (assembling components or whatever) also suffer the same type of health problems as those of us that spend alot of time in front of computers. There is no evidence that it is the crt that is damaging to our health. And all of the health side effects can be eliminated by taking proper exercise and eating properly.
The only effect that crt screans might cause to health is a result of the very high radiation from the screans, which can be reduced by using an anti glare/ radiation screan.
My eyesight went a long time ago (I'd attribute that to long 132-character-column kermit sessions on a Commodore 64 hooked up to a 13" black and white TV set)... Last year I had lasik performed, now I'm 20/20. Cool.
Just started noticing, tho, my "mouse shoulder" - it's always hurting really bad. Most likely due to the fact I'm a "low sitter", and my arm is always pointing up when using the mouse..
Stiff joint there,.. hurts to raise it up past the normal mouse position...
So, now, uh -- time for shoulder replacement? Is there a surgery for this as well?.. I can keep abusing myself without feeling bad about it if there's surgeries to keep putting me back together. Heh.
Re:Eyes aren't a problem..
by
Anonymous Coward
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· Score: 0
I was getting the same symptoms as you because I have my keyboard on my lap and the mouse was all the way up next to my monitor and speakers. I moved the mouse and mousepad about 8 inches down on top of the computer case and that has made a lot of difference. My shoulder used to tire and I noticed I would be shrugging with my "mouse" shoulder. I got scared because I've read about Repetitive Stress Disorders and don't want to get anything like that.
Re:Eyes aren't a problem..
by
humanfly
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· Score: 1
Yes, you would need surgery if you don't make a change in your habits now.
The mouse should be at the same level as the keyboard and close to your body, not raised and to the right. Check out some basic ergonomics info, and you may wish to see a rehab specialist or RSI (Repetitive Strain Injury) specialist.
My understanding/experience is that your muscles have forgotten to relax... you're so used to holding your arm in a certain position that even when your muscles could relax, they don't. This causes physical changes in the structure of the muscle leading to progressively less flexibility, and progressively more pain until you are effectively disabled. You need to massage, to bring in oxygen, gentle stretching and flexibility exercises. You could get a large rubber band used for rehab exercises... stick one end under your foot, hold the other in your right hand. Raise the right hand as if you're holding a pitcher and pouring to the left. Raise to just above shoulder level. If there is pain before you get your arm this high, stop, back off a little. Hold 5 secs. This is ON. Drop arm to side and relax. This is OFF. You're retraining your arm to relax. Seek medical advice for additional recommendations.
If you've already seen a doctor, ignore me.
I had aches and pains, exhaustion, poor sleep and digestion, plus depression and reluctance to come to work. I tried to remedy some of this thinking it was RSI and strain from the computer. I cycle maybe 90 miles a week, hard, and do other exercise as well. Assumed that I was knackered all the time because of the exercise...
This went on for years probably. I lost all of my hair. All of it. When I finally got up and saw a doctor (my fault) it turned out I was hypothyroid.
If you exercise enough and spend time away from your PC and still have these symptoms, for god's sake see a doctor. You may not have what I have but it may sort you out. I'm very well right now, although I still have no hair.
Hmm, from a brief look at hypothyroid, like most things I show some of the symptoms, but not to the same degree, or slightly different. Doesn't sound like what i have.
I have seen a doctor once and he recommended excercise. He did a blood test and it indicated that I may have had glandular fever in the past and not realised.
Experimentation is the key I think. I'm going to try to excercise more often. Also, I'm going to get a laptop in the next 3 months or so, so hopefully the LCD display will make some difference too.
that reminds me of this training i went to once where the istructor kept giving us 5 minutes breaks every 20 minutes because of 'safety regulations'
--->or we can fit in with the shopfloor crowd and wear safety goggles:)
Re:safety goggles?
by
SecGreen
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· Score: 4, Interesting
Don't knock the safety goggles.. My brother works in a manufacturing plant, and while he was using a high-speed bandsaw to take a sample of a metal part for destructive testing, the part self destructed sending a _very_ high velocity projectile directly at his face. The face shield absorbed some of the impact as it cracked, and the safety glasses under the face shield distributed the remaining force accross the bridge of his nose and cheekbones. He had a broken nose and racoon-style black eyes for a couple weeks, but at least he still has the use of both eyes.
And we computer geeks have the nerve to whine about our arses getting sore... There's a simple solution: Drink 2 quarts of water every work day. You'll be surprised how many levels this will work on: 1. You'll have to get up and take a walk to the loo at least every hour. This excercise and stretching will help eliminate the aches & pains. 2. With the extra water, your body will be more efficient at eliminating toxins, and you'll generally feel better and more alert. 3. Keeping a steady flow of water will eliminate cravings for junk food & soda. This will have the long term effect of making you more attractive to the opposite sex!
Considering that most of the symptoms (including eye-strain) can be compounded by cronic dehydration, this regimin is worth a try!
regards, -sg
-- Dupe posts are/.'s tacit protest on the rights of users to time-shift content...
-- Do not try to read the dupe, thats impossible. Instead, only try to realize the truth What truth? There is no dupe
VDT!! I'm having a flashback!
by
AppyPappy
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· Score: 2
I haven't heard that term for years. Not since I was banging away on a Burrough's mainframe. They had great terminals with small keyboards that you could sit in your lap while you worked. If they went on the fritz, you just whacked the crap out of them. The Burrough's OS was written in Algol (which you can still find only in museums and my resume).
Video Display Terminal. Makes me want to write a WFL again.
--
If you aren't part of the solution, there is good money to be made prolonging the problem
Nothing in the article or journal they reference talks about the health effects of CRT monitors, the use of the term Visual Display Terminal (VDT) throughout the article seems to be a generic term for any type of monitor used with a PC, be they CRT or LCD.
To quote from the article
"While the type of computer work the study participants performed varied considerably, as did the size of the computer used and the work environment, "it should be emphasized that even under such working conditions, our results were extremely consistent over a 3-year period," Nakazawa and colleagues note."
In a three year study with this number of participants, you sould expect a range of monitors to be used, but they show no exception for LCD users. You can see an abstract of the American Journal of Industrial Medicine study this was based on here or sign up for a trial subscription which will allow you to download the whole study in pdf format.
I would bet money that anyone who lived for 8-10 hours a day in an office cubicle staring at sheets of PAPER would have these same effects, or who worked an adding machine all day.....
Hm, explains a few things...
by
Arimus
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· Score: 1
That report might explain why my sight is crap... but the other issue with this report is that survey was taken between 1995 and 1997, not long after that IIRC didn't the regulations regarding VDU emissions etc get tightened up?
-- ---
Users are like bacteria -> Each one causing a thousand
tiny crises until the host finally gives up and dies.
Once again, the article wasn't read ...
by
The+AtomicPunk
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· Score: 1
It has nothing to do with CRTs vs. LCDs - it's about people sitting on their ass too long. Could you perhaps try reading the article next time, timothy?
"Participants answered questions about the amount of time they spent in front of a VDT, their sleep habits, and physical and mental ailments including headache, low back pain, eyestrain, depression and anxiety. Their findings are published in the October issue of the American Journal of Industrial Medicine.
"In our study, we found a significant relationship between duration of daily VDT use and physical symptoms," even after adjusting for other factors that could influence the results, the authors write."
Isn't it bound to bias by placing questions like "Do you get headaches often?" or "Do you have regular backpain?" with "What kind of computer monitor do you use?" and "How close do you sit to your high-radiation death machine, shooting beta-particles at your unshielded brain?" OK, perhaps the second one is overkill, but come on, just placing these two topics in a study together without a) serious buffer questions (as sort of a placebo), or b) careful ordering of the questions (like placing the computer questions MUCH later after the health ones, is asking for skewed results.
Think the LCD display companies put them up to it?
Personally, in 1995, I was using a monitor with a 75 Hz refresh rate. Of course, I was using it in 640 X 480 mode and the video card wouldn't do 16-bit color in higher resolutions, but it worked pretty well for me. Even back then, people knew about flicker and many of us tried to avoid it at all costs.
The main problem is sitting at a terminal for hours and hours at a time, not the screen itself. It's the positions we sit in, how close to the screen we are, and how little movement we make.
-- If it's for-profit but free, you're not the customer -- you're the product (e.g., the Slashdot Beta's "audience").
Health...
by
Anonymous Coward
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· Score: 0
This is not science. It's health related. Slashdot needs a "health" topic for nerds fretting over their (physical, mental) health. Not a luxury, with all the borderline cases over here.
People have been warning about the effects of television for years.
The only real difference in heath issues between the two is that you sit far closer to a computer(putting aside keyboard issues for now).
We don't need more studies, we need some Common Sense!!!
-- What's in a Sig?
One thing to keep in mind:
by
Mac+Degger
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· Score: 2
This was a study with 25.000! ginie(?sp?) pigs. That's a hell of a lot for a study like this. Conclusion: something is most definitely going on. We don't know what (posture, the VDT [CRT and/or TFT!] factor, not enough exercise, just the eystrain which propagates through the system causing the other symptoms), but there is most definitely a measurable, detrimental effect.
-- --
Waht? Tehr's a preveiw buottn?
Re:One thing to keep in mind:
by
Griim
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· Score: 2
Why does everyone assume it must be *one* of the above? How about ALL of them?
Sitting in one spot will definitely fuck you up. We have predatory bodies, that need and were designed to be USED. Not exercising for years is like not using your car for years. Don't be surprised when it doesn't start, falls apart, and dies early.
It's pretty much a known fact that a shitty CRT (with a low refresh rate -- first thing I do when I visit a client is bump the refresh rate to maximum, nothing will give you a headache faster than 60Hz) will cause headaches and eyestrain, and it is known that these two go hand-in-hand.
Re:One thing to keep in mind:
by
pjgeer
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· Score: 1
The means of study was a questionairre. I've googled for it til my fingers ached and I can't find it. Without knowing what questions they asked and how they asked them, how do we know if this study is legitimate or if it's a dud?
Re:One thing to keep in mind:
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Anonymous Coward
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· Score: 0
GUINEA pig you ignoramus
Re:One thing to keep in mind:
by
Anonymous Coward
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· Score: 0
It was not a study of "guinea pigs", it was a survey of large sample size. As in political polls, the who, what, when, and where of the survey can considerably bias the results. In a political survey the pollsters often are paid by parties wanting "evidence" to support certain views, and the poll is tailored to produce that evidence. Such polls are as credible as campaign promises!
A properly designed scientific survey is tailored to deliver unbiased results by:
- Using "double blind" interviews and other methods that obscure the interviewer's point of view.
- Using a truly random sample, taking great care to avoid a biased sample. For example, ads saying "Subjects needed for VDT medical effects study" are inappropriate, because that could bias the sample population towards subjects who have a complaint.
- Correlation with a "control" sample who are alike as possible except for the postulated cause (VDT use).
So without reviewing the entire research paper, rather than a summary article derived from it, nobody is in a position to comment on the quality of the results. Don't take your science from popular media, use the source!
Actually, according to Merriam-Webster's Dictionary, it is a transitive verb meaning "to write off as an expense". This is a clear cut case of "I think it should be this way, and I've never heard otherwise, so I'll assert it and act petulant." that so often pervades Slashdot. See also Proof By Intimidation.
expense Pronunciation Key (k-spns) n.
Something spent to attain a goal or accomplish a purpose: an expense of time and energy on the project. A loss for the sake of something gained; a sacrifice: achieved speed at the expense of accuracy. An expenditure of money; a cost: an improvement that was well worth the expense; a trip with all expenses paid. expenses Charges incurred by an employee in the performance of work: was reimbursed for her travel expenses. Informal. Money allotted for payment of such charges. Something requiring the expenditure of money: Redecorating the house will be a considerable expense. Archaic. The act of expending.
tr.v. expensed, expensing, expenses To charge with expenses. To write off as an expense.
Source: Dictionary.com ..and sorry about being a spelling nazi.
Verbs have conjugations and tenses. Every verb that is usable in one conjugation and tense is still a verb when you use it in another conjugation and tense. You should stop being a pedant (at least with regard to grammar); you're not very good at it.
Heh. You're right. My error. I shouldn't try to think this early in the morning.
-- If a job's not worth doing, it's not worth doing right.
Re:Correction
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Anonymous Coward
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· Score: 0
This is why they make coffee. Or Mountain Dew. Or caffeinated soap.:)
Difference between Correlation and Cause
by
mary_will_grow
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· Score: 1
Well, this is sort of invalid. It may be the CRTs. Or it may be the fact that those people who sit in front of a CRT for 8 hours are *sitting in one place* for 8 hours. Or maybe its the keyboards. Or maybe its the frequencies emitted by hard drives. I think they should include in the study those people who work in places like the texttile industry, where the fingerwork is similar but there is no CRT. You need to rule out all other possibilities that are in that cubicle with you. Not to say they shouldnt be sounding the alarm. I always agree its a better policy to "Not say its safe until you know it is", rather than "Dont say its unsafe until you know it is"
The radiation from a monitor is emitted from the front sides of the monitor, the least radiation goes straight to where someone is sitting, So if you want larger radiation dose, stand on the front side of the monitor, like 30 times more.
-- Analytic & algebraic topology of locally Euclidean meterization of infinitely differentiable Riemmanian manifold
Evil Genius invents the Cathode Ray Pistol
by
A55M0NKEY
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· Score: 0
With this firearm, I will shoot Evil Cathode Rays and cook your balls. Then I will put an egg in your mouth and Cathode Irradiate it until the egg explodes blowing your frikken jaw off. Then I will shoot EVIL CATHODE RAYS at your BRAIN and you will turn green. If I keep it up, your head will do much what the egg did -- explode, after squirting your cooked eyes out of their sockets and shooting blood out yourars and nose. But since I will stop before that happens, when you've started to turn green, you will walk the night for eternity as a Zombie eating people's brains.
--
Eat at Joe's.
Correlations and causal statements
by
craigeyb
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· Score: 1
You see this all the time. Some study will directly correlate x and y, and people will illogically conclude that x causes y. Well, it's just as logical to conclude that y causes x, too (which is to say, it is not very logical).
One cannot correctly create causal statements based solely on correlations. It could also be the case that there are other variables involved, and x and y may be both effects of that other variable.
In this case, it seems quite possible that persons who are more likely to have health problems (e.g., ones who do not exercise) are frequently attracted to jobs that involve sitting in front of a computer screen all day. Thus, as they enjoy their sedentary lifestyle for years, health problem accumulate.
In short, correlations are useful but not for drawing causal statements.
This sig is false.
--
Social Contract? I don't remember signing any Social Contract!
Okay, is this little bit of information non-obvious to anyone? Seriously, I take it for granted that people just know things like "Firing stray electrons at your face for hours at a time every day for years is not the most healthy thing you can do to yourself" But then people go and do studies- perfectly reasonable, you need to do such things in order to understand the exact effects. But then people go and act/surprised/ when the obvious answers come out. Get over it, people. Anyone with any sense already knew that CRTs werent quite as good for you as a delicious chocolate protein shake, and we've already started switching in large-part to LCDs and soon other technologies as well (OLEDs, Digital Ink, some other one that was mentioned last week too..) So it's been known, It doesnt really matter, and Most people are already going for alternatives for other reasons.
-- -- 'The' Lord and Master Bitman On High, Master Of All
What a load of Codswallop....
by
Anonymous Coward
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· Score: 0
{Disclaimer:: I _am_ drunk at _this_ point in time}
A child... 10 years of living in a methane atmosphere (not a metaphor)... move them to an oxygen based atmosphere... optical burning, eye strain from light differention, etc.
The problem is, is _not_ that using a computer for a long time gives people eyestrain. That is very much a possibility.
The problem is, is that people who have not used computers for long periods of time are the ones bitching about it.
I've been an avid computer use since I was _4 years old_. From the Commodore Vic 20 to the Athlon XP I have today, I have never experienced a signifigant concern with vision adjustment or augmentatation.
_If_ you want to get into computers when you are 25 years old and totally unprepared for the adjustment to your eyes, go for it. _If_ you want to suddenly develop nightblindness, fine.
_If_ however, you want to get into a career where you don't strain your eyes then you might as well get into one where vision is a bonus, because anything you do in this day and age will involve _something_ that strains your eyes.
Look at the "ordinary" office environment. Soft-lighting is probably my biggest issue with the "standard" office space. It makes me sleepy, and it makes me tired not seeing a shadow when I look at someone. I don't know, nor understand, the physics involved, I just know that when I work in a "soft-lit" environment, that it makes me tired and listless.
In closing, I do not believe that it is the "CRT syndrome" that screws peoples eyes up when they have to use a computer for long periods of time. I think it is the "adaptability" of their eyes, the time that they have to adapt to the CRT, and the expectation of their level of vision that makes people think that makes them go blind from excessive computer use.
It's half psychological. Think about the man or woman or surfs porn for several hours. _They_ might not see a problem, but their optometrist might.
I don't know, maybe it's like RSI. Me personably, I have _never_ had a problem, but then as I said, I have use a computer since I was 4, which is about 22 years now, but friends who have only used them for about 2 to maybe 5 years have issues. Maybe it's conditioning. Maybe it's when you are young, your body adapts, and when it's older it doesn't - it simply says "Fuck you, I'm used to cycling and jogging but this comp shit can go jump in the lake". I don't know. Go by your own experiences.
Zero Kelvin zkvr.cjb.net
I'm not so sure
by
estoll
·
· Score: 2, Interesting
I've been sitting in front of a CRT for 15 years and I'm sure the average is more than 5 hours/day. I can admit, most of those symptoms are true, but I highly doubt they are from the CRT.
"including headache, low back pain, eyestrain, depression and anxiety." "complained of headache, eyestrain, joint pain and stiff shoulders." "lethargy, anxiety and "reluctance to go to work," as well as sleep-related problems including insomnia and fatigue"
Get a new pair of glasses.
Set up your computer ergonomically correct, get yourself a good chair, and sit up straight.
Maybe you are just bored of your job.
Sitting in a chair for 8 hours a day is going to fatigue your body. Get off your ass and workout after work.
Proper ergonomical setup is the absolute key to computer work.
-- http://www.askthevoid.com
Some tips
by
tanveer1979
·
· Score: 3, Informative
Well, monitors cant be avoided nor can sitting in front of computer. just take some precautions.
Do situps(abdominal) after 3 hours of sitting.
Sit straight, dont crouch
Keep monitor at eye height
Add more calcium to your diet
If you develop back pain, dont IGNORE, go to the doc now!
remind yourself to blink regularly, not blinking is dangerous
Try using a screen(3M makes AFAIK)
Every morning excerise wrists by using the grip builder or clenching unclenching
Last but not the least, remember, health is wealth
-- My Aurora : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o91ZsGwJYyg
FB : https://www.facebook.com/TanveersPhotography
Re:Some tips
by
Anonymous Coward
·
· Score: 0
Instead of buying a screen for your uh, screen, you could try turning the brightness and/or contrast down a bit?
Ahh... What a nice case for workmans comp! My eyes are burning, I can't sleep, and my joints are hurting... Actually my joints are huting after playing a rough game of football, I can't sleep because I don't know if my job is going to be cut for political reasons (I am a state contractor) and my eyes are burning from %&@m flourescent lights, not the CRT. I have a heavily leaded monitor. And I measured the radiation myself, as long as I don't stay up against the sides or rear of the monitor, I'm ok.
If you have a cheap monitor, you better look at the monitor from at least 4 feet away.
Evidence!? We Don't Need No Empirical Evidence!
by
Gropo
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· Score: 1
I have a slight lack of blood flow leading to my left eye, which normally isn't an issue...
...Except that a few years back I was employed as a computer lab assistant at my university. The lab was housed in the basement, usually with 2 out of 4 walls comprised of concrete. I would spend about 14 hours a day there, either as an employee or working on my own projects.
On about 6 different occasions, my left eye started to experience 'starriness', then tunnel vision, and then it would stop sending information to my brain entirely. This was a most disconcerting experience whenever it happened.
Since I left that environment, the problem hasn't recurred. (only very slightly, after dehydrating myself on my bicycle, but not entirely)
Perhaps the problem had more to do with the stress of my lifestyle than being around a million fans and CRT's, but I'm inclined to believe it was the latter (as I've been in other stressful positions hence)
I don't know if someone has pointed this out but it looks like video display terminal was used for a reason. That reason being ALL SCREENS. Not just CRT's and that obviously doesn't mean LCD's are going to cure or help you.
I know this part has been posted earlier but it is the sitting and staring.
-- Abiit, excessit, evasit, erupit.
Like my mom always said...
by
Ghengis
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· Score: 1
"Don't sit so close to that thing!" I thought she was only talking about the TV.
--
"The best laid plans of mice and men gang oft agley..." - ROBERT BURNS
asshat, when will you learn?
by
haa...jesus+christ
·
· Score: 0, Offtopic
stop editorializing, asshat. especially when what you say HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH THE ARTICLE. jesus farking christ.
I doubt the problem is the looking at CRTs, I suspect it's more that most crt-watchers are in lousy jobs (call centres, anyone?)
-- Panurge has posted for the last time. Thanks for the positive moderations.
Mod parent up!
by
Anonymous Coward
·
· Score: 0
Mod this guy up. He seems to be one of about two people who actually read the article. Nowhere in it does it say CRT, it uses VDT. I think that all of us would agree that an LCD is a video display and if it is connected to a computer, that makes it a terminal.
While video display terminal (VDT) use has become commonplace in many types of jobs, there is little information on how long a person can safely use a computer each day.
Did you happen to fail the reading comprehension section on the SATs?
However, the article does disagree with the actual study (which links the symtpoms suffered to the work conditions) and in general seems sensationalistic.
The imaginary radiation, of course. Seriously, people who think CRTs emit any significant amout of potentially harmful radiation are the same people who think if you were to stand in front of a running microwave oven with the door open, you will be bombarded with ionizing radiation and get cancer. People hear radiation and all they know is "X-rays", or "nukular radiation". Crimony, don't they know that steam radiators give of radiation? It's mostly IR, but it's radiation.
-- If a job's not worth doing, it's not worth doing right.
Being currently embroiled in a statistics course at university, one of the things that has been recently drilled into my head is that a correlation of factors does not mean at all that the one factor causes the other.
Firstly, the term "statistically significant" means that the relationship observed was unlikely to occur by chance. This does not mean that there is definitely a correlation, but that there is a probability of finding a correlation.
Secondly even a very strong correlation when found, does not meant that there is causation, just that there is something interrelating those factors. For example there could be a strong correlation between a person's age and their owning a car. This does not mean that your growing up will cause you to own a car, or that owning a car makes you older. The two variables are interrelated in a system that involves many more complexe factors, but which yields results that keep certain observed factors grouped together. Finding actual causation is much more difficult.
Thirdly, this type of study is called an observational study, where you send out questionaires and look for correlations. These types of studies have very unclear results generally, and really cannot show causation. There is no talk in the article, for example, of what types of people were responding to the study. Often in voluntary response studies you find that there is an unusually high number of people of one particular tendency who respond more readily than another, so that will skew the results. What you would need to do in order to find actual causation is a set of experiments, with control groups, to show an actual causal relationship between VDT use and health. What observational studies are useful for is drawing attention to a subject and saying we need more attention to this issue.
Anyway, here I am rambling on to little point. They say in the article that they need to do more work, and that is my whole point. Its just that often people read articles like this and jump to conclusions like "my computer is going to make me crazy and depressive". So just relax and don't worry... yet!
--
There are a thousand forms of subversion, but few can equal the convenience and immediacy of a cream pie -Noel Godin
Wrong survey participants
by
Sembiance
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· Score: 1
They surveyed the wrong people. I'm betting that 90% of the people they surveyed are just 'normal' people who happen to use a computer all day.
You know, those people who just use word, or Excel or Powerpoint all day.
We slashdotters, we WANT to be in front of the computer, we grew up that way, and as a result, I believe we have a different mental atttitude towards it. I feel a lot of physical 'problems' such as headaches can be avoided by having a positive outlook.
There are a billion sayings to prove this. "If a man is convinced he will die tommorow, he'll probably find a way to do it." "Positive thinking affects health more than modern medicine."
The typical office environment with modular office cube is just about the worst ergonomic environment there is. The cube itself has several problems:
Placing the monitor in the corner means the desk wings are constantly in the way of elbows.
Desk height is non-adjustable, so it's either too high or too low for the majority of people.
Keyboard trays (mounted under the desk) take up enough space that anyone over 5' 10" is going to get whacked in the knees if they try to use it.
These units were designed before mice were common, and have no support for them on the keyboard trays.
The overhead shelves/bins prevent raising the monitor to an ergonomic height.
Add to that issues of non-adjustable chairs, cheap flat keyboards (vs. ergonomic designs), poor mouse designs, and you've got a guarantee of neck, shoulder, and back problems before you even turn on the monitor.
Turning to the monitors, it's usually not a simple issue of LCD vs. CRT, but of monitor quality. Most cube-lands are full of poor quality monitors that came with pre-negotiated system bundles, often meaning they were outdated before the supply contract was first signed.
As a consultant, I have spent at least half my career stuck in front of blurry, non-adjustable, cheap monitors that I wouldn't even consider for a kids computer, much less someone who has to spend hours a day on it. While far from the worst I've dealt with, my current client environment consists of 5+ year old 17" monitors with poor color, poor contrast, glare problems, low refresh rates, and focus problems (the monitor I'm saddled with can't handle more than 1280x1024 at 60Hz NI. While the resolution is theoretically good enough, refresh rates under 75Hz cause serious eye strain.)
TFT LCD displays would help the eye strain, but so would high quality CRT monitors (e.g. Sony G420 19", Hitachi CM715 19", et. al.) The problem is that companies are not going to pay for replacement monitors because they can get entire system bundles with cheap monitors for very little more.
-- I do not fail; I succeed at finding out what does not work.
Turning to the monitors, it's usually not a simple issue of LCD vs. CRT, but of monitor quality.
It's not just monitor quality. I would argue that it is also an issue of operating system quality with text antialiasing being a huge factor in eye strain. See an article I wrote for Applelust here for more details:
Re:Ergonomics
by
Anonymous Coward
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· Score: 1, Interesting
> As a consultant, I have spent at least half my >career stuck in front of blurry, non-adjustable, >cheap monitors that I wouldn't even consider for >a kids computer, much less someone who has to >spend hours a day on it. While far from the worst >I've dealt with, my current client environment >consists of 5+ year old 17" monitors with poor >color, poor contrast, glare problems, low refresh >rates, and focus problems (the monitor I'm >saddled with can't handle more than 1280x1024 at >60Hz NI. While the resolution is theoretically >good enough, refresh rates under 75Hz cause >serious eye strain.)
And here I thought the piece of crap unreadable monitor they gave me when I started my current contract position was some aberration. Yikes!
To my current client's credit, they gave me a much less punishing monitor recently...I may be able to retain sight into old age yet.
with text antialiasing being a huge factor in eye strain.
Yes, those blurry anti-aliased fonts certainly hurts my eyes!
Fortunately those of us who work in an X environment can choose from a variety of fonts that were designed for computer screens, that fit a pixel grid rather then trying to emulate fonts meant for dead-trees printing. Mmm, the joy of Lucidia-typewriter bold.
-- Tom Swiss | the infamous tms | my blog You cannot wash away blood with blood
I don't know if it's the monitor itself that's causing problems, or the way it is configured. I have gone into many businesses, and they are running their monitors at 60Hz refresh rate, and quite often have flourescent lighting overhead. Almost all monitors these days can hit 75Hz at 1024x768, and 85Hz at 800x600. It's just that the user doesn't know that the monitor can (and should) be run at a higher refresh rate, or that the IT staff has been too lazy to set the monitors higher to begin with.
Businesses should also consider getting high-quality monitors, such as the Sony Trinitron, for employees who will be using the computer for long periods of time. A Trinitron is very noticeably better than the competition. It takes 12+ hours of continuous use on my five year old Trinitron monitor for me to develop eye strain. I run it at 1152x864, with a 77.4kHz vertical refresh rate, and an 85Hz horizontal refresh rate.
I stopped getting sick after I replaced my chair with my old 19" CRT (kinda like sitting on one of those backless Swedish chairs) and expensed the 6 x 19" display.
Odd, now my boss is calling in sick a lot...
-- Imagine how much harder physics would be if electrons had feelings! -Feynman, maybe
I hope that doesn't happen to us simultaneously, because I'd like to see that happen to somebody.
Exposure to PHBs is bad for your health
by
lostboy2
·
· Score: 3, Funny
In another study, researchers have discovered that the tech industry emits lethal amounts of PHBs[1].
Common symptoms of exposure to PHBs includes irritability, fatigue, nausea and rectal leakage.
If you suspect that you are one of the millions of workers who have been exposed, you are encouraged to visit your nearest BAR[2] for treatment.
[1] Pointy-Haired Boss [2] Benevolent Alcohol Repository
The Cause -- Radiation
by
Silver+Surfer
·
· Score: 2, Interesting
There seems to be some confusion and misunderstanding as to the points in the article. First, VDT is a reference [late 80's - early 90's] to computer monitors [CRT's only].
The problem outside of those taken into account (namely posture and lack of exercise) is radiation given off by the CRT. A study/test was done with computer users (mostly programmers) working 8 hour shifts for 5 days, then testing the blood. Rouleaux was found of the blood that linked in fashion of that found in Alzheimer's Disease. The low-level radiation that caused this would even pass through lead. The symptoms are those described in the article.
The solution they found was sunlight. After the subjects spent the weekend outdoors, the condition disappeared.
Afterwards, the reserchers suggested exposure to sunlight, indirectly -- that is, partial or full shade or northern exposure. Another option is to use a full-spectrum, natural light, which you can buy from various companies including OTT-Lite. [www.ott-lite.com]
The research was headed by Dr. John Ott, who perfected time-lapse photography [Disney]. Dr. Ott was instrumental in having warnings and safety measures for radiation placed on televisions in the 1960's. He has demononstrated with different spectrums of light the growth, gender, and death of plants.
Anyone who played the Net extension knows that computers secretly drain your Quintessence. That's the real threat, my friends. Now, march onwards, Virtual Adepts, and bring your Elite laptop.
-- Karma:This parrot is dead! (and so is the joke.)
Based on the problems people were having in this study, it sounds a lot more like general work stress.
Things may have changed somewhat in Japan, but when I worked at NEC America, our Japanese co-workers who would spend 3 to 12 months with us at a time used to tell us about the differences in work conditions between the American NEC offices and the Japanese NEC offices.
On amiable fellow described narrow rows of tables in a big room, with workers packed closely side to side, and with little room behind workers (before the row behind them), and supervisors seated at the center of each row.
That doesn't sound too comfortable to me. And if I had to ride a train for 75 minutes each way to work, and work long hours (except Wednesday, where people are "forced" to work a normal work day:) ), I might not be so excited about going to work either.
In contrast, I spend about 12 hours a day on a computer, and have had months where I spent many more hours than that, and the only thing I have to complain about is a growing belly and Microsoft.
I got one of the Apple LCD cinema displays and it was one of the best purchases I made.
At the job I was at before that the room lights were so bright I think I was getting a tan and had to wear sunglasses indoors and had a "hood" over my CRT.
CRTs tend to blur when they are forced to be too bright, but unless the room is dark they must be turned up to be seen.
And I, like most programmers I know, want to overrez - they want to see 80 lines of code instead of 60 if they can.
There are good CRTs, but they cost nearly as much as an LCD (a 24", 22" viewable Sony comes to mind). They won't have the contrast ratio.
Multiheaded might or might not be good, it depends on what you are doing - a higher rez, bigger monitor might be better than two smaller ones.
Or maybe we should just have video walls in our cubicles.
They should have phrased this using Standard Boilerplate Recommendation #N: "Finally, we recommend that the preparers of this study receive greatly increased funding. This is the only feasible way forward."
Funny, but these symptoms (except for the eye strain) are very similiar to the symptoms of lack of excercise. But, someone that sits in front of a computer screen for 10 hours a day couldn't be suffering from lack of excercise - could they?
--
"We shall party like the Greeks of old! You know the ones I mean." - HedonismBot
the importance of regular breaks
by
bbqBrain
·
· Score: 2, Informative
I've found that when I forget to take breaks from the coding, I'm a lot worse off in general: eye strain, neck stiffness, back discomfort, arthritic wrists, etc. The best tool I've found so far is quite simple but very effective: xwrits. It's been mentioned here on slashdot several times before, but I think it's worth repeating for those who haven't seen it before.
xwrits allows you to specify the interval between breaks, duration of breaks, and many other useful things like whether you should get the finger when you ignore the warning.:-) (BTW, has anyone tested it on OSX?)
--
One of the reasons that I became a lawyer was to avoid ever having to hire one. -SPYvSPY
Font anti-aliasing is completely useless when the monitor itself is blurry. Even so, I'd much rather use extreme resolutions with large fonts, as that has the same end result as anti-aliasing. A "good" monitor effectively blends adjacent pixels when fed resolutions higher than the physical display can support, which is exactly what anti-aliasing is trying to do via software. For example, most 17" monitors have a maximum physical display of 1280x1024. Feed them a 1600x1280 signal, and you get hardware "aliasing".
-- I do not fail; I succeed at finding out what does not work.
Why the fuck would I want to do that?
by
Hektor_Troy
·
· Score: 2
Why the fuck would I want to be MORE attractive to the opposite gender, and therefore also my own gender? Being a buff 450 pounds, and having an IQ just above freezing, I have enough problems keeping the groupies off my back as it is!
Hi. My name is Steve Ballmer, and I pronounce "sexy" as "fat ass".
-- We do not live in the 21st century. We live in the 20 second century.
They are so right
by
Anonymous Coward
·
· Score: 0
Im now have a job always sitting in Front of TFT or traditional CRTs, and i have mentioned some strange influences on my health. Sleeping enough, i am anyhow tired and more than that very exhausted after waking up.
I'm wopndering.. are most monitor problems the result of sitting to close to it? If I sit 16" from my 17" CRT, I get eye strain because of the protons pounding my eyes. If I sit back a few feet, the image becomes smaller but my eyes feel more comfortable.
Could it be said that a 20" flat panel mounted to the wall above my desk would give me the same results as the 17" CRT without the strain? It'd be 2 ft away, that seems reasonable.
--
There is no reasonable defense against an idiot with an agenda :wq
Causation vs. Correlation
by
Anonymous Coward
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· Score: 0
Just because two things happen doesn't mean one caused the other.
arrg
by
Anonymous Coward
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· Score: 0
Im getting sick of this, i have always sat too close to the tv, used big power hoggin crts, and not only do i not suffer vision problems, my vision is actually above normal.
I've been sitting behind a terminal on average for at least 5 hours a day for the last 18 years and have no problems, other than being slightly overweight:) I never get headaches, and sleep habits? I can pound three cans of Dew before bedtime and still sleep like a baby. I don't know what these "researchers" are smoking, but then again maybe some people are better suited for being planted behind a terminal than others.
I find so many things wrong and lacking with this study I don't even know where to start. First of all, my long experience with Japanese people has shown me that they're an *extremely* health conscious people and living in Japan, not a day goes by there where the media doesn't tell us about 50 new things that will make us sick. Secondly, Japanese people are notoriously workoholics, so A) perhaps that could have something to do with their conditions, and B) the slightest slacking off could lead others to think there was something wrong with them. And finally, putting the vocus on this "VDT" is pretty ridiculous as there are SO many other factors in just sitting in front of a computer all day. (Believe me, I know, and I can tell you that I don't feel the symptoms of fatigue, etc, they're talking about after spending all day playing UT!) I understand that there ARE theoretical health risks with CRTs (as mentioned in the summary), but as it turns out this article tells us nothing new at all.
Course you didn't even read the article.
by
Anonymous Coward
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· Score: 0
The article had no distinction between LCDs and CRTs it said VDT which includes BOTH. I guess your SIG explains why you are on the net at all.
I wonder which LCD manufacturer is bribing them to say that.
-- http://www.accountkiller.com/removal-requested
Things have changed since 1997!!
by
ChaosMt
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· Score: 2
The study was 95-97... Let me tell you, sitting in front of a 256 color, 12", 60 hz refresh, in an oak chair on a bad desk soaking in the florescent flicker... YES things ***WERE*** bad. (but that ol' IBM keyboard was nice)
Where has this guy been? While he's been sitting and wasting time in his lazy job, I now have a 19", gabillion color, flat screen crt (er... excuse me VDT - heaven forbid I use the venacular of the plebian masses; may academia save us all), at 100hz, with nice task lighting, split keyboard and ergo chair.
What this study tells me is that he doesn't have the connections to get published, and finally someone gave him a break - perhaps just to humiliate him. I don't need any further research; I need a job like this guy has, where I {ahem} work for two years and they expected the results five years later. I'll take, even if I have to use his bad "VDT".
I think I'll just automate this guy out of existence -- and I'll do it in 23 lines - of csh (just to be a bastard!)
Slightly OT, but about your parenthetical statement: TFTs are the name for a specific type of LCD screen, also known as active-matrix screens. They are more expensive than passive-matrix displays, but they are generally regarded as bieng much better.
So, TFT is a more specific name, but LCD would be more accurate. See the webopedia for their definition of TFT.
-- "We demand rigidly defined areas of doubt and uncertainty!" - Vroomfondel, H2G2
Office workers stuck in front of a computer most commonly complained of headache, eyestrain, joint pain and stiff shoulders.
This is just another ergonomics article, nothing really new.
Mental symptoms such as lethargy, anxiety and "reluctance to go to work," as well as sleep-related problems including insomnia and fatigue, were most common among workers who spent more than 5 hours a day glued to their computer screen.
BUT! This goes to show that sitting in front of your computer > Real Life. What this article doesn't tell you is what those people were doing in front of their computers.
Everquest? Pr0n? Slashdot?
Your eyes may not melt, but you'll probably still go nuts. =)
I've had a blue ring around the whites of my eyes for about 3 years now. I've been to several eye doctors and they say that the scalera has worn thin and that the tissue underneath is showing through. They said it will never wear completely out. The only thing I can think of is reading slashdot too much.
I've been using computers since the Apple//. I'm a programmer but rarely work more than 40 hours a week.
I used to have strong headaches (unusual for me) an ever increasing eye strain (I've always been sensitive to light but this was much more intense than I usually experience) and lack of sleep (I'm a night owl, but only when I use the computer too much)... and all kinds of other problems. Usually irritated and sore, strained eyes.
I got a glare filter at first and the headaches went away but the straining didn't.
Years go by. 3 months ago I get a Sony 17.1 LCD TFT. No more headaches. Instantly no more strainging. Good sleep patterns (probly an effect of me getting married in the same time frame as when I got the LCD)... my eyes are better, no more sore or irritated (unless I deprive myself of sleep)...
Don't know exactly if it makes a different scientifically, but I do know that when I start to use my server for more than 30 mintues (CRT) I start to get "light-headed" and my eyes again strain and irritate until I turn away and it's all better again.
I have experienced, I think there is a relation (with me) in this. Others I know that have programmed for 30 years or more have no eye problems. So it must be in the person or the monitor or other factors considered. Nonetheless, I think CRT/LCD differences are significant and make a diifference on the eye.
Thanks, Me
Is it me or have we heard this before?
by
Anonymous Coward
·
· Score: 0
Doesn't the symptoms sounds very similar to those studies on tv-wating couch potatoes?
I spend about 12 hours a day in front of a computer. But I also try to take breaks, usually every 1-2 hours, going on walks, getting food, bathroom, shower, do some stretching and push ups, little move around the house activity.
Maybe it's because I got away from professional school and am in a less stressful environment, but it seems to me if you overdo anything, there are health consequences. I find this "lifestyle" far easier to manage--I eat better, take breaks, and am less "on the go". The study doesn't seem to have adequately removed stress variables out of their analysis.
but I didn't see anything in the article about CRTs They may have meant either CRTs or flat screens
female slashdotters?!?!
by
Anonymous Coward
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· Score: 0
There are female slashdotters here? Damn you Slashdot! I'm not reading within slashdot ever again! First they get the right to vote and now we got Barbie and Bill Gates in the news!
To hell with you all!
Personal solutions to back pain
by
loosenut
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· Score: 2
I've been sitting in a front of a computer for the past 10 years (with occasional breaks for eating and sleeping), and developed chronic neck and back pain pretty early on.
A few years ago, I started sitting on a Gymnic ball. Sure, people in the office make fun of me, but I have NO more neck pain. Still a little bit of back pain, but yoga and swimming keep that under control. Oh, and the insurance-paid massages help, too.
The evolutionary path we've been on didn't lead us to these bodies to sit in one place for so long.
I know a lot of slashdotters don't read the articles, but the editors?
They are talking about all types of computer monitors, hence the term video display terminal (VDT). They are not differentiating between LCD and CRT monitors, so your excuse to purchase a LCD just went out the window.
-- Democracy isn't about no one telling you what to do. It's about everyone telling you what to do.
They call them VDTs because...
by
Tarantismic+Yak
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· Score: 1
the article isn't specifically about CRTs. Perhaps someone at Slashdot is trying to drum up sales for an LCD manufacturer or reseller. Conspiracy!
On another note, one would assume that sitting still for 5 hours a day in front of and staring at just about anything is unhealthy. Unless of course that thing happens to be topless 8-)
Everyone reading the parent should note that it's still not an entirely good idea to stand in front of an open microwave. It can heat you just like it heats food.
Tim
-- Omnia vestra castrorum habetur nobis.
next favourite slashdot headline poll...
by
v8interceptor
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· Score: 1
this one will be a doozy!
-- ---
Why are you wearing that stupid bunny suit? | Why are you wearing that stupid man suit?
GRAPHICS CARDS ETC.
by
Anonymous Coward
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· Score: 0
Has anyone detected that having a better graphic card and or monitor has eleviated eye strain? i have an agp graphic card that came stock with my t1120 emachine and the monitor is set on 75 hrtz refresh rate. Do you think a better set up might reduce eyestrain? Could it be the refresh rate?
And what was ON those VDT's? I can have a fair guess...
In all the documentation i write, i concequently put in a note, saying that ANY exposure to M$ products can and will harm your health and social life. So they are warned again.
(on the other hand, the symptoms are familiar, and i am writing this at 2:40 am, while none of the above mentioned products are present here;-)
As far as the points of eyestrain and glare, this handy-dandy item will alleviate most, if not all of those problems. Aside from being easy on the eyes, they're also just dang cool, a must for geeks and non-geeks stationed behind monitors alike.
In other news, office workers who stared at the wall for 8 hours most complained of headache, eyestrain, joint pain and stiff shoulders. More proof that "researchers" can always find what they are looking for. Don't mistake corellation for causation!!!
Sounds like a scam -- actual on-site information?
by
Anonymous Coward
·
· Score: 0
Unbelievable as it seems, I've cured myself of myopia, astigmatism and amblyopia in two years by using the method described in there (it's the Bates method). Besides, it's totally free, and this is a non profit site with no advertissement or such. Everything you need to know is in there
No it isn't. The summary of "the Bates Method" is full of fluff. It makes constant references to "the Bates Method" and relaxing, but never really describes what "the Bates Method" is. For that, they want you buy books. Typical of a scam site. There may be no external ads, but the webpage *is* one big ad.
Re:Sounds like a scam -- actual on-site informatio
by
crulx
·
· Score: 1
Slashdot Mirror
This means my insurance will cover the 23" Apple Cinema HD Display I've had my eye (pardon the pun) on right?
Scientific leaders today made the discovery that too much of anything, might just be bad for you.
Yes, even beer.
It's not just the CRT, it's the SITTING. All day in one position, gee I wonder if thats going to have an effect on you.
The only damage I've had from sitting in front of a monitor at work for 10 years is 100 more pounds on my frame than I should have.
Ursula Andress, Catherine Deneuve, and Charo, twice...
I sit in front of the computer all day, but the reason is not the CRT, but whats on it (read pr0n) :-)
Guess this means we've finally got an excuse for a five hour workday, eh?
Hey, as long as they still pay me for eight, I won't be complaining.
That's why I'm not getting laid! Stupid monitors!
using namespace slashdot;
troll::post();
Sensationalist headlines on Slashdot? Never!
Information doesn't want to be anthropomorphized anymore.
I just got a new Hitachi CP-SX5500W. It is a bright projection LCD that does better than 1280x1024. I am using it for my main computer display. I now have a 72+ inch display. Woohoo! No CRT strain here!
"So go ahead and expense a three-head LCD setup for your desk."
To who, my mom and dad?
"I would say that 99 per cent of what my father has written about his own life is false." - L. Ron Hubbard Jr.
My father allways told me if I watched too much TV or used my computer too much my eyes would end up beeing squared. No mentioning of that in the article, so I guess he was wrong.
Not Buzzword 2.0 compliant. Please speak english.
Fortunately, I've mostly ditched CRTs for LCD. I use my laptop to control all the computers I administer, and I connect the CRT I have only in emergency cases, i.e. when the machine won't run sshd so that I can't log in to it. LCDs (I think they are more correctly called TFTs?) are energy-efficient, produce next to no radiation, are small, and don't flicker. On the flip side, they're more expensive and less flexible (resolutionwise) than CRTs. However, 1024x768 is the only resolution I use, and I'm glad to pay a little more for all the goodies I get.
---
Shaw's Principle:
Build a system that even a fool can use, and only a fool will
want to use it.
Please correct me if I got my facts wrong.
As a read it I felt like it was answering my problems. Through college I gradualy found my self in front of computers for greater amounts of time and now feel like as they describe, I can't sleep for crap any more. I ether sleep for 15hrs a day or don't sleep at all. Hell it's 5am and I'm up. I was tired a bit ago, but no more, I have to study for a test but don't feel like it, but I'm up because I'm wanting to study.
Well guess it's time to make coffee
Couch potatos never complain of these symptoms therefor I propose that all VDU's must have no greater resolution than 625 lines (525 in the US) and a refresh rate no greater than 50 Hz (60 Hz). Plus companies must provide seating at least 10 foot away from the computer with keyboard & mouse cables long enough to cope. Problem solved. Obviously this would cause other problems such as users wondering why they can't order pizza and have it delivered to their desk and why scratching their nuts gets the female staff so angry but these are minor issues...
until my insurance covers the resoldering of my ibook that's needed for multi-display rather than displaying the same image on two monitors in Jaguar.
Theoretically at least, Linux could run at a higher resolution than the internal LCD. Does anyone know if this would cause permanent damage? Could I develop epilepsy and have my eyes melt out of my head anyways from the flickering on an lcd at a resolution not intended for it?
btw, kudos to the Mac On Linux team; they did one hell of a job. (better documentation for networking support would be appreciated)
You can't judge a book by the way it wears its hair.
OMG. 20 replies so far and pretty much every one of them mentions either CRTs or LCDs.
The article mentions displays NOT ONCE.
The closest it comes is "eyestrain," which is one of several symptoms they examined.
This article is not about displays, it is about sitting in front of the computer.
I can see it now:
Yes dear, I know I need to go to work and feed our kids, but , you see, those big bad monitors at work are giving me hell. And I have referenced scientific article to prove it !
people working with monitors are reluctant to go to work. scoop.
Working for necessity's mother.
Yeah right, that has nothing to do with having a prick of a manager and doing demeaning and stressful work all day for little reward.
I'd like to know how they account for these 'other factors'. I'm just wondering whether this could be attributed to the kind of working environment these people face... Stress is know to be a major cause of the symptoms they describe and I'm not sure how they factor that into their analysis... Nevertheless I agree that more research is necessary.
For years I have been unable to sleep properly. It's been at least 6 years, perhaps since I was 15, maybe younger. I wake up feeling energetic, sort of - able to leap over piles of junk in my room instantly. Yet for the whole day my eyes feel sleepy, like they want to sleep. And my body screams out that it's not ready for bed.
Before you say it, I already know - this sounds pretty much like I'm not getting enough excercise, and spending too much time looking at a monitor. However, even if I spend a month away from a computer, doing active outdoor activities, it still makes no difference. I think it may take longer time.
If it is true that an LCD is better for me, then I will gladly get one to end the way I feel. It's just...something...like a constant gnawing, irritation. I'm able to fall to sleep, providing I go when my body is ready. This is usually around 2-3am. Sometimes (very rarely) it can be as late as 7am before my body is ready to sleep. If I go too early I simply cannot sleep. If I go when I am ready I fall to sleep within, perhaps, 30 minutes.
I don't feel much back pain (if any) though, and my eyes almost never feel strained or saw (right now being the exception, so I'm about to go do something else).
So, is an LCD really going to reduce the effects that this article talks about?
VDT = Video Display Terminal
CRT = Cathode Ray Tube
LCD = Liquid Crystal Display
In the article summary where the slashdot link leads, they don't mention anything about LCDs being more healthy than CRTs. They refer to VDPs which I would guess is a superset containing both computer systems with CRTs and LCDs.
I would be happy however if health benefits are found from using LCDs since I've had trouble convincing my friends just with the cool factor.
Of course they did. It's not like they're going to say "well thanks, I think we've researched it enough now. Let's head down to the welfare office"
</cynicism>
In the article summary where the slashdot link leads, they don't mention anything about LCDs being more healthy than CRTs. They refer to VDPs which I would guess is a superset containing both computer systems with CRTs and LCDs.
YES. In fact, VDT is a superset containing ALL interactive computer systems. Where in the article did they mention ANY type of monitor??
One year after starting my job I got all the symptoms mentioned. I have to sit in front of the computer all the day (>8hrs). I had pains in my shoulders, neck, and lower back, I had eyestrain, and my index finger hurt from using the scroll wheel (that's why a 1-button-mouse is a good thing :-). I also developed some neurotic behavior including anxiety (9/11 helped much to make things worse :-(), and I didn't like the job very much, also the colleagues and the whole environment is really great - also the job is easy and well paid.
I coped with it mostly by doing one thing: sports. Since I go to the gym 3 times a week, everything went back to normal. No pain, no fear.
OMG, I really need mod points for this one. Is this Slashdot's form of astroturfing?
One simple rule for its versus it's
Standing all day at work makes your feet hurt and causes circulation problems in your legs.
Lying in bed 24 hours a day gives you bed sores.
Drinking a quart^H^H^H^H^Hlitre (Oh, I forgot, we're being scientific here) of water every 30 minutes makes you urinate a lot.
How is this news? I think everybody knows that looking at a monitor for long periods of time hurts your eyes. As for melting them out of their sockets, well I guess that's the part that is news to me.
I'm sure you could get some of the same symptoms from LCDs. Much of the physical problems are associated with the posture in front of the computer - people tend to hunch over when the monitor is placed wrong. Exersise helps, especially ab work to keep you sitting up straight like your momma told you too.
Now, computer dudes have sleeping problems? Could it be due to the fact, that most office worker drink more coffee than their medic considers to be safe?
Just a guess so - because I noticed sleeping difficulties if I have my last coffee at 11 pm. And I really need a scientist to tell me why...
Yeah, and if I go out and have sex, I am more likely to catch the clap or something like that...
I feel celibate enough by visiting this site 20 times a day. I feel pathetic enough oggling over female slashdotters who get karma points. Now you wanna take away my 21" CRT to boot.
To hell with you!
/^[A-Z0-9._%+-]+@[A-Z0-9.-]+\.[A-Z]{2,4}$/i
First of all, if the problem stem from radiations coming from the screen, the farther you are from it, the less radiation you take. Since they must follow an inverse square law, even a few centimeters can make quite a difference.
Next, and perhaps more important: do NOT strain when you are looking at the screen. I spend most of my time in front of a CRT, and don't have any troubles. Take some breaks, before you eyes hurt. Even closing your eyes and resting them for a few secoonds is often enough. You can also put your cupped palms on your eyes, not touching them, elbows resting on the desk, and imagine pleasant things. Also, look out of the window from time to time.
Apart from these obvious things, there is a right way to look, and many wrong ones. Most people who have vision problems, headaches, eyestrain or pain are in this situation only because they use their eyes in a wrong way. If you want to know more about this, take a look at this site.
Unbelievable as it seems, I've cured myself of myopia, astigmatism and amblyopia in two years by using the method described in there (it's the Bates method). Besides, it's totally free, and this is a non profit site with no advertissement or such. Everything you need to know is in there
Don't take my word for it, give it a fair try, and see for yourself.
"Of course I'm french, why d'you think I got this outttrrrageous accent?"
My feeling is that they are more likely to be caused by the fact that my job is boring, the workload is too high and most of my colleagues are dildo's. I think many jobs that require a person to sit in front of a monitor for more than 6-7 hours a day are probably monotonous and unsatisfying. So this accounts for the described symptoms better than any wierd electromagnetic radiation effects the post suggests (and would also mean that getting that ultra-sexy cinema display would _not_ help a bit) Of course this does not apply to people that do some actual creative work that they like to do (programmers, video artists, whatever) Well. Perhaps I should become a farmer or something.
The Bigger The Headache The Bigger the Pill
People that work in factories sitting at a desk (assembling components or whatever) also suffer the same type of health problems as those of us that spend alot of time in front of computers. There is no evidence that it is the crt that is damaging to our health. And all of the health side effects can be eliminated by taking proper exercise and eating properly.
The only effect that crt screans might cause to health is a result of the very high radiation from the screans, which can be reduced by using an anti glare/ radiation screan.
My eyesight went a long time ago (I'd attribute that to long 132-character-column kermit sessions on a Commodore 64 hooked up to a 13" black and white TV set)... Last year I had lasik performed, now I'm 20/20. Cool.
.. hurts to raise it up past the normal mouse position...
.. I can keep abusing myself without feeling bad about it if there's surgeries to keep putting me back together. Heh.
Just started noticing, tho, my "mouse shoulder" - it's always hurting really bad. Most likely due to the fact I'm a "low sitter", and my arm is always pointing up when using the mouse..
Stiff joint there,
So, now, uh -- time for shoulder replacement? Is there a surgery for this as well?
If you've already seen a doctor, ignore me. I had aches and pains, exhaustion, poor sleep and digestion, plus depression and reluctance to come to work. I tried to remedy some of this thinking it was RSI and strain from the computer. I cycle maybe 90 miles a week, hard, and do other exercise as well. Assumed that I was knackered all the time because of the exercise... This went on for years probably. I lost all of my hair. All of it. When I finally got up and saw a doctor (my fault) it turned out I was hypothyroid. If you exercise enough and spend time away from your PC and still have these symptoms, for god's sake see a doctor. You may not have what I have but it may sort you out. I'm very well right now, although I still have no hair.
that reminds me of this training i went to once where the istructor kept giving us 5 minutes breaks every 20 minutes because of 'safety regulations' --->or we can fit in with the shopfloor crowd and wear safety goggles :)
a bright side of this that we can look on ?
Do not try to read the dupe, thats impossible. Instead, only try to realize the truth
What truth?
There is no dupe
I haven't heard that term for years. Not since I was banging away on a Burrough's mainframe. They had great terminals with small keyboards that you could sit in your lap while you worked. If they went on the fritz, you just whacked the crap out of them. The Burrough's OS was written in Algol (which you can still find only in museums and my resume).
Video Display Terminal. Makes me want to write a WFL again.
If you aren't part of the solution, there is good money to be made prolonging the problem
To quote from the article
In a three year study with this number of participants, you sould expect a range of monitors to be used, but they show no exception for LCD users. You can see an abstract of the American Journal of Industrial Medicine study this was based on here or sign up for a trial subscription which will allow you to download the whole study in pdf format.
That report might explain why my sight is crap... but the other issue with this report is that survey was taken between 1995 and 1997, not long after that IIRC didn't the regulations regarding VDU emissions etc get tightened up?
--- Users are like bacteria -> Each one causing a thousand tiny crises until the host finally gives up and dies.
It has nothing to do with CRTs vs. LCDs - it's about people sitting on their ass too long. Could you perhaps try reading the article next time, timothy?
Quote from article:
"Participants answered questions about the amount of time they spent in front of a VDT, their sleep habits, and physical and mental ailments including headache, low back pain, eyestrain, depression and anxiety. Their findings are published in the October issue of the American Journal of Industrial Medicine.
"In our study, we found a significant relationship between duration of daily VDT use and physical symptoms," even after adjusting for other factors that could influence the results, the authors write."
Isn't it bound to bias by placing questions like "Do you get headaches often?" or "Do you have regular backpain?" with "What kind of computer monitor do you use?" and "How close do you sit to your high-radiation death machine, shooting beta-particles at your unshielded brain?" OK, perhaps the second one is overkill, but come on, just placing these two topics in a study together without a) serious buffer questions (as sort of a placebo), or b) careful ordering of the questions (like placing the computer questions MUCH later after the health ones, is asking for skewed results.
Think the LCD display companies put them up to it?
A quick google search confirms that the reason the term VDT is used is to categorise all display screen equipment.
Editors, please do not waste our time.
Personally, however, I am very sensitive to flicker and lack of sharpness so that I really enjoy my (great) Dell 20" TFT.
This is not science. It's health related. Slashdot needs a "health" topic for nerds fretting over their (physical, mental) health. Not a luxury, with all the borderline cases over here.
What high radiation?
As you well know, most slashdotters don't read the article before posting. By "VDT", the article clearly meant any display in general.
BUT, the Slashdot article actually says, "VDT = CRT, CRT bad, use LCD."
I blame Taco & co. on this one for a poorly worded summary of the article.
The only real difference in heath issues between the two is that you sit far closer to a computer(putting aside keyboard issues for now).
We don't need more studies, we need some Common Sense!!!
What's in a Sig?
This was a study with 25.000! ginie(?sp?) pigs. That's a hell of a lot for a study like this. Conclusion: something is most definitely going on. We don't know what (posture, the VDT [CRT and/or TFT!] factor, not enough exercise, just the eystrain which propagates through the system causing the other symptoms), but there is most definitely a measurable, detrimental effect.
-- Waht? Tehr's a preveiw buottn?
Source: Dictionary.com
--- What
Well, this is sort of invalid.
It may be the CRTs. Or it may be the fact that those people who sit in front of a CRT for 8 hours are *sitting in one place* for 8 hours. Or maybe its the keyboards. Or maybe its the frequencies emitted by hard drives. I think they should include in the study those people who work in places like the texttile industry, where the fingerwork is similar but there is no CRT. You need to rule out all other possibilities that are in that cubicle with you. Not to say they shouldnt be sounding the alarm. I always agree its a better policy to "Not say its safe until you know it is", rather than "Dont say its unsafe until you know it is"
Why stick up for big business?
"It tastes like burning..."
The radiation from a monitor is emitted from the front sides of the monitor, the least radiation goes straight to where someone is sitting, So if you want larger radiation dose, stand on the front side of the monitor, like 30 times more.
Analytic & algebraic topology of locally Euclidean meterization of infinitely differentiable Riemmanian manifold
With this firearm, I will shoot Evil Cathode Rays and cook your balls. Then I will put an egg in your mouth and Cathode Irradiate it until the egg explodes blowing your frikken jaw off. Then I will shoot EVIL CATHODE RAYS at your BRAIN and you will turn green. If I keep it up, your head will do much what the egg did -- explode, after squirting your cooked eyes out of their sockets and shooting blood out yourars and nose. But since I will stop before that happens, when you've started to turn green, you will walk the night for eternity as a Zombie eating people's brains.
Eat at Joe's.
You see this all the time. Some study will directly correlate x and y, and people will illogically conclude that x causes y. Well, it's just as logical to conclude that y causes x, too (which is to say, it is not very logical).
One cannot correctly create causal statements based solely on correlations. It could also be the case that there are other variables involved, and x and y may be both effects of that other variable.
In this case, it seems quite possible that persons who are more likely to have health problems (e.g., ones who do not exercise) are frequently attracted to jobs that involve sitting in front of a computer screen all day. Thus, as they enjoy their sedentary lifestyle for years, health problem accumulate.
In short, correlations are useful but not for drawing causal statements.
This sig is false.
Social Contract? I don't remember signing any Social Contract!
Okay, is this little bit of information non-obvious to anyone? Seriously, I take it for granted that people just know things like "Firing stray electrons at your face for hours at a time every day for years is not the most healthy thing you can do to yourself" /surprised/ when the obvious answers come out. Get over it, people. Anyone with any sense already knew that CRTs werent quite as good for you as a delicious chocolate protein shake, and we've already started switching in large-part to LCDs and soon other technologies as well (OLEDs, Digital Ink, some other one that was mentioned last week too..)
But then people go and do studies- perfectly reasonable, you need to do such things in order to understand the exact effects. But then people go and act
So it's been known, It doesnt really matter, and Most people are already going for alternatives for other reasons.
-- 'The' Lord and Master Bitman On High, Master Of All
{Disclaimer:: I _am_ drunk at _this_ point in time}
A child... 10 years of living in a methane atmosphere (not a metaphor)... move them to an oxygen based atmosphere... optical burning, eye strain from light differention, etc.
The problem is, is _not_ that using a computer for a long time gives people eyestrain. That is very much a possibility.
The problem is, is that people who have not used computers for long periods of time are the ones bitching about it.
I've been an avid computer use since I was _4 years old_. From the Commodore Vic 20 to the Athlon XP I have today, I have never experienced a signifigant concern with vision adjustment or augmentatation.
_If_ you want to get into computers when you are 25 years old and totally unprepared for the adjustment to your eyes, go for it. _If_ you want to suddenly develop nightblindness, fine.
_If_ however, you want to get into a career where you don't strain your eyes then you might as well get into one where vision is a bonus, because anything you do in this day and age will involve _something_ that strains your eyes.
Look at the "ordinary" office environment.
Soft-lighting is probably my biggest issue with the "standard" office space. It makes me sleepy, and it makes me tired not seeing a shadow when I look at someone. I don't know, nor understand, the physics involved, I just know that when I work in a "soft-lit" environment, that it makes me tired and listless.
In closing, I do not believe that it is the "CRT syndrome" that screws peoples eyes up when they have to use a computer for long periods of time. I think it is the "adaptability" of their eyes, the time that they have to adapt to the CRT, and the expectation of their level of vision that makes people think that makes them go blind from excessive computer use.
It's half psychological. Think about the man or woman or surfs porn for several hours. _They_ might not see a problem, but their optometrist might.
I don't know, maybe it's like RSI. Me personably, I have _never_ had a problem, but then as I said, I have use a computer since I was 4, which is about 22 years now, but friends who have only used them for about 2 to maybe 5 years have issues. Maybe it's conditioning. Maybe it's when you are young, your body adapts, and when it's older it doesn't - it simply says "Fuck you, I'm used to cycling and jogging but this comp shit can go jump in the lake". I don't know. Go by your own experiences.
Zero Kelvin
zkvr.cjb.net
"including headache, low back pain, eyestrain, depression and anxiety."
"complained of headache, eyestrain, joint pain and stiff shoulders."
"lethargy, anxiety and "reluctance to go to work," as well as sleep-related problems including insomnia and fatigue"
Get a new pair of glasses.
Set up your computer ergonomically correct, get yourself a good chair, and sit up straight.
Maybe you are just bored of your job.
Sitting in a chair for 8 hours a day is going to fatigue your body. Get off your ass and workout after work.
Proper ergonomical setup is the absolute key to computer work.
http://www.askthevoid.com
Do situps(abdominal) after 3 hours of sitting.
Sit straight, dont crouch
Keep monitor at eye height
Add more calcium to your diet
If you develop back pain, dont IGNORE, go to the doc now!
remind yourself to blink regularly, not blinking is dangerous
Try using a screen(3M makes AFAIK)
Every morning excerise wrists by using the grip builder or clenching unclenching
Last but not the least, remember, health is wealth
My Aurora : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o91ZsGwJYyg
FB : https://www.facebook.com/TanveersPhotography
Ahh... What a nice case for workmans comp!
My eyes are burning, I can't sleep, and my joints are hurting... Actually my joints are huting after
playing a rough game of football, I can't sleep because I don't know if my job is going to be cut for political reasons (I am a state contractor) and
my eyes are burning from %&@m flourescent lights,
not the CRT. I have a heavily leaded monitor.
And I measured the radiation myself, as long as I don't stay up against the sides or rear of the monitor, I'm ok.
If you have a cheap monitor, you better look at the monitor from at least 4 feet away.
I have a slight lack of blood flow leading to my left eye, which normally isn't an issue...
...Except that a few years back I was employed as a computer lab assistant at my university. The lab was housed in the basement, usually with 2 out of 4 walls comprised of concrete. I would spend about 14 hours a day there, either as an employee or working on my own projects.
On about 6 different occasions, my left eye started to experience 'starriness', then tunnel vision, and then it would stop sending information to my brain entirely. This was a most disconcerting experience whenever it happened.
Since I left that environment, the problem hasn't recurred. (only very slightly, after dehydrating myself on my bicycle, but not entirely)
Perhaps the problem had more to do with the stress of my lifestyle than being around a million fans and CRT's, but I'm inclined to believe it was the latter (as I've been in other stressful positions hence)
Nothing more than a little anecdote.
I hate Grammar Nazi's
I don't know if someone has pointed this out but it looks like video display terminal was used for a reason. That reason being ALL SCREENS. Not just CRT's and that obviously doesn't mean LCD's are going to cure or help you.
I know this part has been posted earlier but it is the sitting and staring.
Abiit, excessit, evasit, erupit.
"The best laid plans of mice and men gang oft agley..." - ROBERT BURNS
stop editorializing, asshat. especially when what you say HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH THE ARTICLE. jesus farking christ.
I doubt the problem is the looking at CRTs, I suspect it's more that most crt-watchers are in lousy jobs (call centres, anyone?)
Panurge has posted for the last time. Thanks for the positive moderations.
Mod this guy up. He seems to be one of about two people who actually read the article. Nowhere in it does it say CRT, it uses VDT. I think that all of us would agree that an LCD is a video display and if it is connected to a computer, that makes it a terminal.
From the article:
Did you happen to fail the reading comprehension section on the SATs?
However, the article does disagree with the actual study (which links the symtpoms suffered to the work conditions) and in general seems sensationalistic.
What high radiation?
The imaginary radiation, of course. Seriously, people who think CRTs emit any significant amout of potentially harmful radiation are the same people who think if you were to stand in front of a running microwave oven with the door open, you will be bombarded with ionizing radiation and get cancer. People hear radiation and all they know is "X-rays", or "nukular radiation". Crimony, don't they know that steam radiators give of radiation? It's mostly IR, but it's radiation.
If a job's not worth doing, it's not worth doing right.
Being currently embroiled in a statistics course at university, one of the things that has been recently drilled into my head is that a correlation of factors does not mean at all that the one factor causes the other.
Firstly, the term "statistically significant" means that the relationship observed was unlikely to occur by chance. This does not mean that there is definitely a correlation, but that there is a probability of finding a correlation.
Secondly even a very strong correlation when found, does not meant that there is causation, just that there is something interrelating those factors. For example there could be a strong correlation between a person's age and their owning a car. This does not mean that your growing up will cause you to own a car, or that owning a car makes you older. The two variables are interrelated in a system that involves many more complexe factors, but which yields results that keep certain observed factors grouped together. Finding actual causation is much more difficult.
Thirdly, this type of study is called an observational study, where you send out questionaires and look for correlations. These types of studies have very unclear results generally, and really cannot show causation. There is no talk in the article, for example, of what types of people were responding to the study. Often in voluntary response studies you find that there is an unusually high number of people of one particular tendency who respond more readily than another, so that will skew the results. What you would need to do in order to find actual causation is a set of experiments, with control groups, to show an actual causal relationship between VDT use and health. What observational studies are useful for is drawing attention to a subject and saying we need more attention to this issue.
Anyway, here I am rambling on to little point. They say in the article that they need to do more work, and that is my whole point. Its just that often people read articles like this and jump to conclusions like "my computer is going to make me crazy and depressive". So just relax and don't worry... yet!
There are a thousand forms of subversion, but few can equal the convenience and immediacy of a cream pie -Noel Godin
They surveyed the wrong people.
I'm betting that 90% of the people they surveyed are just 'normal' people who happen to use a computer all day.
You know, those people who just use word, or Excel or Powerpoint all day.
We slashdotters, we WANT to be in front of the computer, we grew up that way, and as a result, I believe we have a different mental atttitude towards it.
I feel a lot of physical 'problems' such as headaches can be avoided by having a positive outlook.
There are a billion sayings to prove this.
"If a man is convinced he will die tommorow, he'll probably find a way to do it."
"Positive thinking affects health more than modern medicine."
Blah blah blah.
The typical office environment with modular office cube is just about the worst ergonomic environment there is. The cube itself has several problems:
Add to that issues of non-adjustable chairs, cheap flat keyboards (vs. ergonomic designs), poor mouse designs, and you've got a guarantee of neck, shoulder, and back problems before you even turn on the monitor.
Turning to the monitors, it's usually not a simple issue of LCD vs. CRT, but of monitor quality. Most cube-lands are full of poor quality monitors that came with pre-negotiated system bundles, often meaning they were outdated before the supply contract was first signed.
As a consultant, I have spent at least half my career stuck in front of blurry, non-adjustable, cheap monitors that I wouldn't even consider for a kids computer, much less someone who has to spend hours a day on it. While far from the worst I've dealt with, my current client environment consists of 5+ year old 17" monitors with poor color, poor contrast, glare problems, low refresh rates, and focus problems (the monitor I'm saddled with can't handle more than 1280x1024 at 60Hz NI. While the resolution is theoretically good enough, refresh rates under 75Hz cause serious eye strain.)
TFT LCD displays would help the eye strain, but so would high quality CRT monitors (e.g. Sony G420 19", Hitachi CM715 19", et. al.) The problem is that companies are not going to pay for replacement monitors because they can get entire system bundles with cheap monitors for very little more.
I do not fail; I succeed at finding out what does not work.
From the article:
Hmmm... I wonder if something else is going on at this university that's causing people's eyes to melt out of their heads??
Don't do today what you can put off until tomorrow. You'll most likely find a better way to do it!
i think you just lost your audience =)
That's what happens when you watch Raiders of the Lost Ark DVD for more than 5 hours in a row.
the type of computer work the study participants performed varied considerably, as did the size of the computer used
OMG!! I have a hugeass 24" tower case.. my computer is HUGE -I'M GONNA DIE!
----------------------------
Esobofh - Currently drinking fresh mango juice.
Hahaha, *rotfl*...
I don't know if it's the monitor itself that's causing problems, or the way it is configured. I have gone into many businesses, and they are running their monitors at 60Hz refresh rate, and quite often have flourescent lighting overhead. Almost all monitors these days can hit 75Hz at 1024x768, and 85Hz at 800x600. It's just that the user doesn't know that the monitor can (and should) be run at a higher refresh rate, or that the IT staff has been too lazy to set the monitors higher to begin with.
Businesses should also consider getting high-quality monitors, such as the Sony Trinitron, for employees who will be using the computer for long periods of time. A Trinitron is very noticeably better than the competition. It takes 12+ hours of continuous use on my five year old Trinitron monitor for me to develop eye strain. I run it at 1152x864, with a 77.4kHz vertical refresh rate, and an 85Hz horizontal refresh rate.
I stopped getting sick after I replaced my chair with my old 19" CRT (kinda like sitting on one of those backless Swedish chairs) and expensed the 6 x 19" display.
Odd, now my boss is calling in sick a lot...
Imagine how much harder physics would be if electrons had feelings! -Feynman, maybe
Your Eyes Will Melt Out Of Your Head
I hope that doesn't happen to us simultaneously, because I'd like to see that happen to somebody.
In another study, researchers have discovered that the tech industry emits lethal amounts of PHBs[1].
Common symptoms of exposure to PHBs includes irritability, fatigue, nausea and rectal leakage.
If you suspect that you are one of the millions of workers who have been exposed, you are encouraged to visit your nearest BAR[2] for treatment.
[1] Pointy-Haired Boss
[2] Benevolent Alcohol Repository
There seems to be some confusion and misunderstanding as to the points in the article. First, VDT is a reference [late 80's - early 90's] to computer monitors [CRT's only].
The problem outside of those taken into account (namely posture and lack of exercise) is radiation given off by the CRT. A study/test was done with computer users (mostly programmers) working 8 hour shifts for 5 days, then testing the blood. Rouleaux was found of the blood that linked in fashion of that found in Alzheimer's Disease. The low-level radiation that caused this would even pass through lead. The symptoms are those described in the article.
The solution they found was sunlight. After the subjects spent the weekend outdoors, the condition disappeared.
Afterwards, the reserchers suggested exposure to sunlight, indirectly -- that is, partial or full shade or northern exposure. Another option is to use a full-spectrum, natural light, which you can buy from various companies including OTT-Lite. [www.ott-lite.com]
The research was headed by Dr. John Ott, who perfected time-lapse photography [Disney]. Dr. Ott was instrumental in having warnings and safety measures for radiation placed on televisions in the 1960's. He has demononstrated with different spectrums of light the growth, gender, and death of plants.
'til dawn...
Light.
mp3: l33t term for empty.
Anyone who played the Net extension knows that computers secretly drain your Quintessence. That's the real threat, my friends. Now, march onwards, Virtual Adepts, and bring your Elite laptop.
Karma:This parrot is dead! (and so is the joke.)
Things may have changed somewhat in Japan, but when I worked at NEC America, our Japanese co-workers who would spend 3 to 12 months with us at a time used to tell us about the differences in work conditions between the American NEC offices and the Japanese NEC offices.
On amiable fellow described narrow rows of tables in a big room, with workers packed closely side to side, and with little room behind workers (before the row behind them), and supervisors seated at the center of each row.
That doesn't sound too comfortable to me. And if I had to ride a train for 75 minutes each way to work, and work long hours (except Wednesday, where people are "forced" to work a normal work day :) ), I might not be so excited about going to work either.
In contrast, I spend about 12 hours a day on a computer, and have had months where I spent many more hours than that, and the only thing I have to complain about is a growing belly and Microsoft.
.sigs are for post^Hers.
I got one of the Apple LCD cinema displays and it was one of the best purchases I made.
At the job I was at before that the room lights were so bright I think I was getting a tan and had to wear sunglasses indoors and had a "hood" over my CRT.
CRTs tend to blur when they are forced to be too bright, but unless the room is dark they must be turned up to be seen.
And I, like most programmers I know, want to overrez - they want to see 80 lines of code instead of 60 if they can.
There are good CRTs, but they cost nearly as much as an LCD (a 24", 22" viewable Sony comes to mind). They won't have the contrast ratio.
Multiheaded might or might not be good, it depends on what you are doing - a higher rez, bigger monitor might be better than two smaller ones.
Or maybe we should just have video walls in our cubicles.
Studies show that we need more studies.
They should have phrased this using Standard Boilerplate Recommendation #N: "Finally, we recommend that the preparers of this study receive greatly increased funding. This is the only feasible way forward."
Funny, but these symptoms (except for the eye strain) are very similiar to the symptoms of lack of excercise. But, someone that sits in front of a computer screen for 10 hours a day couldn't be suffering from lack of excercise - could they?
"We shall party like the Greeks of old! You know the ones I mean." - HedonismBot
I've found that when I forget to take breaks from the coding, I'm a lot worse off in general: eye strain, neck stiffness, back discomfort, arthritic wrists, etc. The best tool I've found so far is quite simple but very effective: xwrits. It's been mentioned here on slashdot several times before, but I think it's worth repeating for those who haven't seen it before.
:-) (BTW, has anyone tested it on OSX?)
xwrits allows you to specify the interval between breaks, duration of breaks, and many other useful things like whether you should get the finger when you ignore the warning.
One of the reasons that I became a lawyer was to avoid ever having to hire one. -SPYvSPY
Font anti-aliasing is completely useless when the monitor itself is blurry. Even so, I'd much rather use extreme resolutions with large fonts, as that has the same end result as anti-aliasing. A "good" monitor effectively blends adjacent pixels when fed resolutions higher than the physical display can support, which is exactly what anti-aliasing is trying to do via software. For example, most 17" monitors have a maximum physical display of 1280x1024. Feed them a 1600x1280 signal, and you get hardware "aliasing".
I do not fail; I succeed at finding out what does not work.
Why the fuck would I want to be MORE attractive to the opposite gender, and therefore also my own gender? Being a buff 450 pounds, and having an IQ just above freezing, I have enough problems keeping the groupies off my back as it is!
Hi. My name is Steve Ballmer, and I pronounce "sexy" as "fat ass".
We do not live in the 21st century. We live in the 20 second century.
Im now have a job always sitting in Front of TFT or traditional CRTs, and i have mentioned some strange influences on my health. Sleeping enough, i am anyhow tired and more than that very exhausted after waking up.
Best regards
Hugo Rune
I'm wopndering.. are most monitor problems the result of sitting to close to it? If I sit 16" from my 17" CRT, I get eye strain because of the protons pounding my eyes. If I sit back a few feet, the image becomes smaller but my eyes feel more comfortable.
Could it be said that a 20" flat panel mounted to the wall above my desk would give me the same results as the 17" CRT without the strain? It'd be 2 ft away, that seems reasonable.
There is no reasonable defense against an idiot with an agenda
:wq
Just because two things happen doesn't mean one caused the other.
Im getting sick of this, i have always sat too close to the tv, used big power hoggin crts, and not only do i not suffer vision problems, my vision is actually above normal.
I've been sitting behind a terminal on average for at least 5 hours a day for the last 18 years and have no problems, other than being slightly overweight :) I never get headaches, and sleep habits? I can pound three cans of Dew before bedtime and still sleep like a baby. I don't know what these "researchers" are smoking, but then again maybe some people are better suited for being planted behind a terminal than others.
-R
Maybe it is due the asian characters that look like bird footprints.
:-)
They should try a phonetic system perhaps? Long-shot, but worth a try. (Japan has a phonetic system, but I don't know if they use it on PCs.)
It is like reading perl all day
Table-ized A.I.
I find so many things wrong and lacking with this study I don't even know where to start. First of all, my long experience with Japanese people has shown me that they're an *extremely* health conscious people and living in Japan, not a day goes by there where the media doesn't tell us about 50 new things that will make us sick. Secondly, Japanese people are notoriously workoholics, so A) perhaps that could have something to do with their conditions, and B) the slightest slacking off could lead others to think there was something wrong with them. And finally, putting the vocus on this "VDT" is pretty ridiculous as there are SO many other factors in just sitting in front of a computer all day. (Believe me, I know, and I can tell you that I don't feel the symptoms of fatigue, etc, they're talking about after spending all day playing UT!) I understand that there ARE theoretical health risks with CRTs (as mentioned in the summary), but as it turns out this article tells us nothing new at all.
The article had no distinction between LCDs and CRTs it said VDT which includes BOTH. I guess your SIG explains why you are on the net at all.
I sit in front of my computer with every minute of free time I have. I have no health problems at all!
is a damned idiot.
I wonder which LCD manufacturer is bribing them to say that.
http://www.accountkiller.com/removal-requested
Where has this guy been? While he's been sitting and wasting time in his lazy job, I now have a 19", gabillion color, flat screen crt (er... excuse me VDT - heaven forbid I use the venacular of the plebian masses; may academia save us all), at 100hz, with nice task lighting, split keyboard and ergo chair.
What this study tells me is that he doesn't have the connections to get published, and finally someone gave him a break - perhaps just to humiliate him. I don't need any further research; I need a job like this guy has, where I {ahem} work for two years and they expected the results five years later. I'll take, even if I have to use his bad "VDT".
I think I'll just automate this guy out of existence -- and I'll do it in 23 lines - of csh (just to be a bastard!)
Democrats and Republicans only disagree about how to enslave you
Slightly OT, but about your parenthetical statement:
TFTs are the name for a specific type of LCD screen, also known as active-matrix screens. They are more expensive than passive-matrix displays, but they are generally regarded as bieng much better.
So, TFT is a more specific name, but LCD would be more accurate. See the webopedia for their definition of TFT.
"We demand rigidly defined areas of doubt and uncertainty!" - Vroomfondel, H2G2
Office workers stuck in front of a computer most commonly complained of headache, eyestrain, joint pain and stiff shoulders.
This is just another ergonomics article, nothing really new.
Mental symptoms such as lethargy, anxiety and "reluctance to go to work," as well as sleep-related problems including insomnia and fatigue, were most common among workers who spent more than 5 hours a day glued to their computer screen.
BUT! This goes to show that sitting in front of your computer > Real Life. What this article doesn't tell you is what those people were doing in front of their computers. Everquest? Pr0n? Slashdot? Your eyes may not melt, but you'll probably still go nuts. =)
I've had a blue ring around the whites of my eyes for about 3 years now. I've been to several eye doctors and they say that the scalera has worn thin and that the tissue underneath is showing through. They said it will never wear completely out. The only thing I can think of is reading slashdot too much.
It could be a combination of physical factors, along with the added pressures of working for a complete dufus of a boss.
I've been using computers since the Apple //. I'm a programmer but rarely work more than 40 hours a week.
I used to have strong headaches (unusual for me) an ever increasing eye strain (I've always been sensitive to light but this was much more intense than I usually experience) and lack of sleep (I'm a night owl, but only when I use the computer too much)... and all kinds of other problems. Usually irritated and sore, strained eyes.
I got a glare filter at first and the headaches went away but the straining didn't.
Years go by. 3 months ago I get a Sony 17.1 LCD TFT. No more headaches. Instantly no more strainging. Good sleep patterns (probly an effect of me getting married in the same time frame as when I got the LCD)... my eyes are better, no more sore or irritated (unless I deprive myself of sleep)...
Don't know exactly if it makes a different scientifically, but I do know that when I start to use my server for more than 30 mintues (CRT) I start to get "light-headed" and my eyes again strain and irritate until I turn away and it's all better again.
I have experienced, I think there is a relation (with me) in this. Others I know that have programmed for 30 years or more have no eye problems. So it must be in the person or the monitor or other factors considered. Nonetheless, I think CRT/LCD differences are significant and make a diifference on the eye.
Thanks,
Me
Doesn't the symptoms sounds very similar to those studies on tv-wating couch potatoes?
I spend about 12 hours a day in front of a computer. But I also try to take breaks, usually every 1-2 hours, going on walks, getting food, bathroom, shower, do some stretching and push ups, little move around the house activity.
Maybe it's because I got away from professional school and am in a less stressful environment, but it seems to me if you overdo anything, there are health consequences. I find this "lifestyle" far easier to manage--I eat better, take breaks, and am less "on the go". The study doesn't seem to have adequately removed stress variables out of their analysis.
but I didn't see anything in the article about CRTs They may have meant either CRTs or flat screens
There are female slashdotters here? Damn you Slashdot! I'm not reading within slashdot ever again! First they get the right to vote and now we got Barbie and Bill Gates in the news!
To hell with you all!
I've been sitting in a front of a computer for the past 10 years (with occasional breaks for eating and sleeping), and developed chronic neck and back pain pretty early on.
A few years ago, I started sitting on a Gymnic ball. Sure, people in the office make fun of me, but I have NO more neck pain. Still a little bit of back pain, but yoga and swimming keep that under control. Oh, and the insurance-paid massages help, too.
The evolutionary path we've been on didn't lead us to these bodies to sit in one place for so long.
I know a lot of slashdotters don't read the articles, but the editors?
They are talking about all types of computer monitors, hence the term video display terminal (VDT). They are not differentiating between LCD and CRT monitors, so your excuse to purchase a LCD just went out the window.
Democracy isn't about no one telling you what to do. It's about everyone telling you what to do.
the article isn't specifically about CRTs. Perhaps someone at Slashdot is trying to drum up sales for an LCD manufacturer or reseller. Conspiracy!
On another note, one would assume that sitting still for 5 hours a day in front of and staring at just about anything is unhealthy. Unless of course that thing happens to be topless 8-)
Everyone reading the parent should note that it's still not an entirely good idea to stand in front of an open microwave. It can heat you just like it heats food.
Tim
Omnia vestra castrorum habetur nobis.
this one will be a doozy!
--- Why are you wearing that stupid bunny suit? | Why are you wearing that stupid man suit?
Has anyone detected that having a better graphic card and or monitor has eleviated eye strain? i have an agp graphic card that came stock with my t1120 emachine and the monitor is set on 75 hrtz refresh rate. Do you think a better set up might reduce eyestrain? Could it be the refresh rate?
And what was ON those VDT's? I can have a fair guess...
;-)
In all the documentation i write, i concequently put in a note, saying that ANY exposure to M$ products can and will harm your health and social life.
So they are warned again.
(on the other hand, the symptoms are familiar, and i am writing this at 2:40 am, while none of the above mentioned products are present here
As far as the points of eyestrain and glare, this handy-dandy item will alleviate most, if not all of those problems. Aside from being easy on the eyes, they're also just dang cool, a must for geeks and non-geeks stationed behind monitors alike.
In other news, office workers who stared at the wall for 8 hours most complained of headache, eyestrain, joint pain and stiff shoulders. More proof that "researchers" can always find what they are looking for. Don't mistake corellation for causation!!!
Unbelievable as it seems, I've cured myself of myopia, astigmatism and amblyopia in two years by using the method described in there (it's the Bates method). Besides, it's totally free, and this is a non profit site with no advertissement or such. Everything you need to know is in there
No it isn't. The summary of "the Bates Method" is full of fluff. It makes constant references to "the Bates Method" and relaxing, but never really describes what "the Bates Method" is. For that, they want you buy books. Typical of a scam site. There may be no external ads, but the webpage *is* one big ad.
At least read the website before you decide to bash it please. You will end up looking less foolish.
well, this explains why my life sucks. who woulda knew.
heh.