Slashdot Mirror


ILM Now Capable of Realtime CGI

Sandman1971 writes "According to the Sydney Morning Herald, specialFX company ILM is now capable of doing realtime CGI, allowing actors and directors to see rough CGI immediately after a scene is filmed. Actors on the latest Star Wars film watch instant replays of their battles with CG characters. ILM CTO Cliff Plumer attributes this amazing leap to the increase in processing power and a migration from using Silicon Graphics RISC-Unix workstations to Intel-based Dell systems running Linux."

259 comments

  1. Errm... by bconway · · Score: 4, Insightful

    According to the Sydney Morning Herald, specialFX company ILM is now capable of doing realtime CGI, allowing actors and directors to see rough CGI immediately after a scene is filmed.

    Wouldn't realtime by WHILE the scene is filmed?

    --
    Interested in open source engine management for your Subaru?
    1. Re:Errm... by thona · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Well, how can the ACTOR look at the scene WHILE he is playing it, without looking like he is looking at a scene. Also the director is propably more concentrated on the screenplay.

    2. Re:Errm... by cyberlotnet · · Score: 0, Flamebait

      Think a minute you flame monkey, The actors are a bit busy doing there scenes, It would not make sense to have this viewable DURING filming, I would imaging it would be a bit disrupting at times to see your "cgi" lookalike doing the things your doing.

    3. Re:Errm... by say · · Score: 1
      ILM is now capable of doing realtime CGI, allowing actors and directors to see rough CGI immediately after a scene is filmed.

      Wouldn't realtime by WHILE the scene is filmed?

      Uh, as in "the actors are able to watch rough CGI while they are filming a scene"? That would be great ;) Holographic characters!

      --
      Roses are #FF0000, violets are #0000FF, all my base are belong to you
    4. Re:Errm... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      and won't this make filming take FOREVER? why wait for someone to import cgi into a film and make your workload 3x and your actual product cut down into 1/4th of what it could be?

      not only that, but what about on location shots?

    5. Re:Errm... by Alan+Partridge · · Score: 0, Troll

      he could look at a monitor? People in TV do, you know.

      --
      That was classic intercourse!
    6. Re:Errm... by Steeltoe · · Score: 1

      Wouldn't realtime by WHILE the scene is filmed?

      As for the term 'realtime', without a reference to what it is realtime against, it could mean anything. It's just how the language works, without a relation to something else, we have to assume something and hope the author intended what we assume.

      Just goes to show the inadequacy of languages, and why so many confusions are taking place in this world. No need to get upset about it though.

    7. Re:Errm... by UCRowerG · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Technically, perhaps. I think this is a great tool for directors and actors. Instead of having to wait weeks/months to incorporate CGI and see the interaction, it can be done in minutes/hours or as fast as the CGI people can splice things together. The director can give near-immediate feedback to the actor(s), which could really help the movie get done more quickly and with fewer costs in the long run. Think about it: changing the expression/pose/color on a CGI character is fairly easy. Re-filming live actors, especially with live fx, can take much longer and be more expensive (salaries for actor, director, film crew... lighting, film, makeup, fx expenses).

    8. Re:Errm... by sigep_ohio · · Score: 2, Insightful

      'Also the director is propably more concentrated on the screenplay.'

      not if your name is George Lucas. then it is all about the eye-candy

      --
      Beer Die is the game of champions Learning To walk my own path.
    9. Re:Errm... by mrtroy · · Score: 2, Insightful

      No, adding the effects in "realtime" would still force you to rewind and watch it after.

      That would be like saying videotaping isn't "realtime" since you have to rewind!

      --
      [I can picture a world without war, without hate. I can picture us attacking that world, because they'd never expect it]
    10. Re:Errm... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Are you stupid or just acting like you are? How can an actor play a role and look at a monitor at the same time?

    11. Re:Errm... by sigep_ohio · · Score: 0, Offtopic

      nope. heck i got thru hi skool wit out lernen hows to reed or rite.

      of course sometimes it is just easier to write something up and not worry too much about spelling or punctuation. it is the sentiment that matters, plus you obviously knew which version the author intended to use in the post.

      --
      Beer Die is the game of champions Learning To walk my own path.
    12. Re:Errm... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      doing the things your doing.

      Not to mention "your" and "you're".

      Spelling-impaired poster's sig: "If I had a nickle for every dupe on slashdot I would be rich!!"

      And if I had a NICKEL for every spelling mistake, I'd be richer.

    13. Re:Errm... by Alan+Partridge · · Score: 0, Troll

      how can a person walk and chew bubblegum at the same time?

      you never seen a weather report?

      --
      That was classic intercourse!
    14. Re:Errm... by einer · · Score: 1

      I can't wait until we can wholesale replace hollywood with a desktop box. No more listening to Tim Robbins flap his jaw about politics. No more waiting to replace the prima dona actress that just walked off the set because the production crew never ordered her Folgers high colonic. It's a directors dream (just like in S1m0ne, the Paccino movie no one saw).

      There are drawbacks however. Getting a half dog for a CG character would definately throw up some flags. We'd have to update the Bible. No gay sex, and no sex with your computer... Especially gay computer sex, that's just right out. Whole new chapters would have to be added about how God turned George Lucas into a pillar of salt and smote ILM.

      Maybe this isn't such a good idea.

    15. Re:Errm... by jeffgreenberg · · Score: 5, Insightful

      This is particularly important as they aren't using film.

      WIth HD Lucas is shooting actors on Video...and now doing previsualization with the CG elements on set.

      Did Liam look in the general direction of, but not AT the eyes of the CG character? Reshoot. etc. etc. etc.

      Additionally a rough edit can be done off the video tap on set with the rough CG edit.

      Unfortuantetly this still means nothing without good acting, a good script, or alternate footage to make decisions from.

      You make a film three times.

      Once on the page, once while directing, and once in the edit. But if everthing is so storyboarded and timed down the moment that you can't have options, you can't discover anything in the edit at all.

      Oh well, at least you can see what the giant CG creature looks like

    16. Re:Errm... by Lt+Wuff · · Score: 1

      Given that most movies run about 1/3 longer than they need to, wouldn't this be a good thing?

      --
      -- What? Another .sig?
    17. Re:Errm... by JJahn · · Score: 1

      Weather report people are standing there talking, dumbass. These are actors who are moving and must adopt the expression and feel of their character. It would not do to have them distracted.

    18. Re:Errm... by UCRowerG · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Once on the page, once while directing, and once in the edit. But if everthing is so storyboarded and timed down the moment that you can't have options, you can't discover anything in the edit at all. I think this is exactly the point of this story. Whereas before, a director would have to fit the CGI to the live action already filmed, or expend a *lot* more money in bringing the actors, crew, etc. back to re-shoot the scene (several times). Now, a director can find a good "fit" for a scene almost immediately. It's like the CGI effects are almost the same as the real actors. Each can more easily react to the other.

    19. Re:Errm... by Alan+Partridge · · Score: 1, Troll

      you don't know anything about anything, do you?

      They're ACTORS, their job is to fucking handle distractions and make it look good. They are distracted on all sides by techies doing THEIR jobs, they're taking direction from the directors, they're hitting focus marks over and over again and they're crying on fucking cue.

      --
      That was classic intercourse!
    20. Re:Errm... by Sentry21 · · Score: 2, Informative
      According to the Sydney Morning Herald, specialFX company ILM is now capable of doing realtime CGI, allowing actors and directors to see rough CGI immediately after a scene is filmed.


      Wouldn't realtime by WHILE the scene is filmed

      Well, it's hard to act and watch a monitor at the same time. Besides, the CGI they're doing in realtime is just a preview that they can overlay onto the video feed to see sort-of what it would look like.
    21. Re:Errm... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Holy hell! Alan Partridge modded as "insightful"! Hell must have frozen over, or one of your other accounts got mod access.

    22. Re:Errm... by Stickster · · Score: 2, Insightful
      But if everthing is so storyboarded and timed down the moment that you can't have options, you can't discover anything in the edit at all.

      If you're George Lucas, you don't discover anything in the edit, you simply use CGI to change the actors' bodies to fit what you want. If you listen to the Episode I and II DVD commentaries, you will hear some very interesting details about how actors' positions on "set," their limbs, and even their faces were changed in post to suit Lucas' direction. It's no wonder the new Star Wars films seem so flat and lifeless -- why have a collaborative experience with an actor when you can do CG puppetry?

      I'm not a big anti-Lucas guy (his money = his prerogative), but I am a big fan of actors. I find this sort of gimmickry very off-putting and definitely detrimental to the quality of a film. It's not that you can necessarily finger it on-screen while you're experiencing the film (although the fireplace scene in Episode II is an exception), but it can't help but contribute to a sense of detachment in the actors' performances, and thus it makes their scenes stilted and somehow "off."
    23. Re:Errm... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      There are drawbacks however. Getting a half dog for a CG character would definately throw up some flags. We'd have to update the Bible. No gay sex, and no sex with your computer... Especially gay computer sex, that's just right out. Whole new chapters would have to be added about how God turned George Lucas into a pillar of salt and smote ILM.

      What are you talking about ?

    24. Re:Errm... by The_K4 · · Score: 1, Redundant

      DARK HELMET: What the hell am I looking at? When does this happen in the movie? COL. SANDERS: Now. You're looking at now, sir. Everything that happens now is happening now. DARK HELMET: What happened to then? COL. SANDERS: We passed then. DARK HELMET: When? COL. SANDERS: Just now. We're at now, now. DARK HELMET: Go back to then. COL. SANDERS: When? DARK HELMET: Now! COL. SANDERS: Now? DARK HELMET: Now! COL. SANDERS: I can't. DARK HELMET: Why? COL. SANDERS: We missed it. DARK HELMET: When? COL. SANDERS: Just now. DARK HELMET: When will then be now? COL. SANDERS: Soon.

    25. Re:Errm... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      A madman is chasing you and trying to kill you and your family.

      You whip out your gun and shoot, but hit him in the shoulder instead of the head (at which you were aiming).

      You stop, stand there, and think "Oh well, he knows where I meant to shoot him".

      Then you die.

    26. Re:Errm... by grumpygrodyguy · · Score: 1

      I think this is a great tool for directors and actors. Instead of having to wait weeks/months to incorporate CGI and see the interaction, it can be done in minutes/hours or as fast as the CGI people can splice things together.

      From the article:

      "It's not at full resolution, but at least it gives them something to work with rather than working completely blind after each take."

      So how is this different from using wireframe models to do live action takes? That's been done for years now. All I can tell from the article is that they managed to put a few more polygons on the wireframe than they did last year. They are not doing WYSIWYG.

      As far as I can tell, "ILM Now Capable of Realtime CGI" is a misleading title for this story. It's only natural that if you upgrade your processor you're going to be able to put more polygons on the wireframe model. We see this kind of thing every year with new games. It gets better incrementally, year by year.

      If a standard wireframe model has 0 polygons, and a fully rendered Jar Jar has 10^5 polygons, then how many do these new liveaction models have? 10^3, 10^4? The article doesn't even say.

      Poor title, poor article, poor journalism, poor science.

      --
      The government has a defect: it's potentially democratic. Corporations have no defect: they're pure tyrannies. -Chomsky
    27. Re:Errm... by JJahn · · Score: 1
      You're right! I don't know anything about anything.

      But obviously YOU don't either.

    28. Re:Errm... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Spelling is optional only for the dipshits among us. The rest of us prefer to convey our thoughts in an intelligent manner.

      "Spelling is optional." What a lazy, bullshit attitude. Your parents must be proud.

    29. Re:Errm... by mhesseltine · · Score: 1

      About S1M0NE...I just watched this movie last weekend. The problem with completely CG "actors", is that, at some point and time, the computer guy is going to do something stupid that tips people off that they're actually watching a CG "actor", not a human.

      In the movie, at the awards show, S1M0NE won an award, and being CG, couldn't be live at the show. So, she appeared via satellite from some 3rd world country where she was doing "Charity work". In the background, there's a "huge" wind storm, and her behavior and hair is perfect (not blowing around, no wind noise in the mic, etc.) The sad thing was that no one in the audience picked up on this.

      I think that if Hollywood were to go completely CG, and not tell people, they would screw something up like that and people would catch on. Besides, who wants to mess with an actor's union anyway?

      --
      Overrated / Underrated : Moderation :: Anonymous Coward : Posting
    30. Re:Errm... by NanoGator · · Score: 1

      "Wouldn't realtime by WHILE the scene is filmed? "

      No. It means they can play it back at any camera view without having to wait for it to render.

      --
      "Derp de derp."
    31. Re:Errm... by t0ny · · Score: 1
      According to the Sydney Morning Herald, specialFX company ILM is now capable of doing realtime CGI, allowing actors and directors to see rough CGI immediately after a scene is filmed.

      Well if you have figured out a way they can watch a monitor and do their scene at the same time, let them know.

      It could usher in a whole new era- I want to watch myself actually doing work, while Im doing it. But if Im watching it, then Im not doing it... This could possibly create a paradox and make the universe disappear!!!

      --

      Manipulate the moderator system! Mod someone as "overrated" today.

    32. Re:Errm... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      it wasn't spelling but word usage that was incorrect.

    33. Re:Errm... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Well if you have figured out a way they can watch a monitor and do their scene at the same time, let them know.

      Are you kidding, or just simple? How do you think most movies, television shows, and news broadcasts are filmed?

    34. Re:Errm... by slyxter · · Score: 1

      In The Austin Powers movies (I & II), you can see the actors watching monitors in the naked scenes. Especially the scene with Myers & Hurley after they got married. They had to do that to keep the props lined up properly with the camera. Watch it, you will see.

    35. Re:Errm... by Hast · · Score: 1

      And this is while guys like Peter Jackson instead have a callback of actors to reshoot scenes they were not happy about.

      No wonder why the latest SW movies have seemed devoid of acting.

    36. Re:Errm... by Mac+Degger · · Score: 1

      It's not entirely done like that, AFAIK.

      Take for example Gollum. They do his scenes three times: once with the actors in the scene, minus Gollum. Then they run through it again with Mr Perkins(?) as Golum in it. Then once again with only Gollum.

      No in the second and third time the scene is done, the motion capture setup is stuck on him, and feeds the mocap data directly to the computer. They hook up a skeleton to the data and wiegh a mesh onto that. Then every move made by Perkins (is that his name?) will move the figure onscreen. They just play it back when he's done and crit it.

      You could do a lot more, but usually other digital effects (like for example an AT-AT in the distance) are added in post...you could have the AT-AT in the scene, but that means having to know all your camera movements to the millimeter too far in advance and having to set that up. And usually it's easier to adjust the data to the scene later than to have the actors adjust to the cg.

      --
      -- Waht? Tehr's a preveiw buottn?
    37. Re:Errm... by KewlPC · · Score: 1

      The only problem is that this won't ever happen.

      If you actually understood real acting and real directing (not just George Lucas style directing), you'd understand why.

      The reason is, of course, that a decent actor will often be able to give you more than you expected. They will try to get inside the head of their character and will be able to point out things (perhaps dialog) that the character wouldn't actually say or do, and suggest replacements that will often make a scene 10 times better.

      Often, a director who is good with actors will let the actors play the scene their way for the first take or two, giving them little or no direction until the 3rd take or so, just so that they can see what the actor's natural way of doing the scene is.

      The best actors don't act, they react. They play off each other, using the other actor's emotions to build their own. This will almost always produce acting that is far better than an actor sitting all by themselves in a recording studio (for animated films, whether traditional or CG, the different actors usually record their lines separately, according to their schedules).

      And while an animator may be a great animator, able to move a character so that its walking motion is indistinguishable from the real thing, they aren't actors. They understand animating, not acting, and probably won't ever get inside the heads of the characters they're animating or argue with the director that the character would never walk that way, or say that line, or whatever.

      While the actor arguing with the director may sound like a bad thing, and when done on the set it usually is, an actor who is able to act like a professional instead of an overpaid child will bring up any, erm, "differences of oppinion" with the director during the script readings and the rehearsals, not on the set. Likewise, a director who is also a professional and not an egomaniac will listen to the actor's suggestions, even if they ultimately don't use them, and when they do use them, the film is often better because of it.

      The director or actors will sometimes think of something right there on the set that he or she never would have otherwise thought of. For example, the scene in Raiders of the Lost Ark where Indy is confronted by the guy with the big ass sword. Originally a big fight scene had been planned, but Harrison Ford was sick that day, and didn't feel like doing a big scene. He went to Steven Spielberg and asked him if they could simplify the scene, and they came up with the idea of just having Indy pull out his gun and shoot the swordsman, like a real person would have done. This also added a bit of comedy to the scene, because Harrison Ford had a "Yeah? So what?" look on his face right as he whipped out his pistol and blew away the guy with the sword. Had the movie been CG, they never would have thought of it, since even a sick person can sit in a recording studio and say their lines into a microphone.

      Let's also keep in mind that these are rough animations, and making the actors time their performance to the CG animation won't usually produce as good of acting as letting the actors do their thing and then timing the CG animation to it. Of course, George Lucas doesn't care about that, he pays very little attention to actors and only seems to care about eye candy.

    38. Re:Errm... by KewlPC · · Score: 1

      Plus, having Andy Serkis actually on set, and recording his mo-cap data right there during the scene means that the other actors can react to Gollum. Remember, good actors don't act, they react, playing off each other's actions and emotions during the scene.

      Maybe George Lucas should take an "Acting For TV & Film" class. Good directors understand how to get the best performances from their actors, sometimes bending over backwards to do it, and the best way to understand how to get great performances from actors is to understand how actors do their thing.

    39. Re:Errm... by KewlPC · · Score: 1

      I hate to tell you this, but actor's don't watch themselves as they're doing the scene. If the director will let them (they sometimes don't, for varying reasons), they actor's can watch a recording from the camera's video tap after they've done the scene.

    40. Re:Errm... by MidnightBrewer · · Score: 1

      No, quite the opposite. It will go much faster.

      The actors can now see who they're interacting with, and if their pantomime with a CG character is off-target, they can see it immediately and go back to do it again, rather than being called in months later to reshoot the scene.

      We've had on-screen real-time avatars for a long time now. I used to love watching MSNBC's "The Site," which was the precursor to ZDTV. They had a full CG realtime character who they did on-set "tech talks" with in a short, three-minute segment in every show. That was in 1997; I'm sure things are much further along now.

      --
      "Give a man fire, and he'll be warm for a day; set a man on fire, and he'll be warm for the rest of his life
    41. Re:Errm... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      HAW HAW! He corrected his sig! HAH!

      I thought spelling was optional, numbnuts.

    42. Re:Errm... by Synic · · Score: 1

      ya but ppl do stupid shit too ;)

    43. Re:Errm... by 1u3hr · · Score: 1
      Wouldn't realtime by WHILE the scene is filmed?

      I was watching the Reign of Fire DVD a few weeks ago (a dragon movie). In one of the "making of" extras, they showed that the director could see while he was filming the CGI dragons etc on his monitor along with the real actors. So this isn't new.

    44. Re:Errm... by 1u3hr · · Score: 1
      Poor title, poor article, poor journalism, poor science.

      Because it's not journlism, it's basically a slightly-reworked ILM press release: "says Cliff Plumer, chief technology officer at special effects house Industrial Light and Magic."

  2. That's nothing... by say · · Score: 5, Funny

    ...my webserver has been doing realtime CGI for years.

    --
    Roses are #FF0000, violets are #0000FF, all my base are belong to you
    1. Re:That's nothing... by ckimyt · · Score: 1

      Seriously, why aren't people flaming the innappropriate use of I? I mean, it's "Computer Graphics (CG)" not "Computer Graphics (CGI)."

      What is the I supposed to stand for?

      --

      Putting the sig back into +1, Insightful since 1995!
    2. Re:That's nothing... by harmonica · · Score: 1

      CGI = computer-generated imagery

    3. Re:That's nothing... by rikkards · · Score: 1
      CGI = computer-generated imagery


      Since there is a hyphen shouldn't that be CI then?

    4. Re:That's nothing... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Way to take a joke... prick.

  3. How long til... by BeninOcala · · Score: 5, Funny

    We have Real-time CGI Porn?

    --
    Where ever you go, there you are.
    1. Re:How long til... by NineNine · · Score: 1

      We have Real-time CGI Porn?


      Almost there... we already have CGI porn, and we already have real-time porn... and let me tell ya', I've got 100 people hard at work on real-time CGI porn!

    2. Re:How long til... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

      Quite soon. Just look at what can consumer-level GPUs produce in the real-time.

    3. Re:How long til... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Uh... Hello? Dead or Alive XBV??

    4. Re:How long til... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      hahaha hard at work...hard...haha
      ha

    5. Re:How long til... by akuma(x86) · · Score: 1

      You haven't played the nude hacked Dead or Alive Beach Volleyball for XBOX yet have you?

    6. Re:How long til... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
    7. Re:How long til... by g4dget · · Score: 1

      If you install some of the mods to games like Quake or Morrowind, you can have it right now...

    8. Re:How long til... by JDWTopGuy · · Score: 1

      It's called Tomb Raider/Nude Raider.

      Or did you mean CGI scripts?

      --
      Ron Paul 2012
    9. Re:How long til... by Zepalesque · · Score: 1

      That has very interesting ethical implications. What happens when pr0n is generated using completely ficticious characters in a film that would be normally deemed illegal in a country.

      Since there would be no real actors (and therefore no one directly abused), it would be curious to see if legislators took steps to ban such content due to the effect its consumption would have on someone owning a copy.

  4. Realtime by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Funny

    Maybe it IS realtime, but the actors just don't have the skill to watch themselves on a monitor WHILE acting, so they use the obvious 'i'll watch when i'm done method'

    1. Re:Realtime by _ph1ux_ · · Score: 1

      I think you meant to say "...the actors just dont have skill..."

    2. Re:Realtime by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Obviously, they need to hire actors that have prior experience as weather bunnies.

  5. What's the point about this? by cdemon6 · · Score: 4, Interesting

    "Realtime CGI in Movie Quality" would be impressive, but:

    "It's not at full resolution, but at least it gives them something to work with rather than working completely blind after each take."

    1. Re:What's the point about this? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      i think you just said what the point is. it gives them something to work with, instead of really not having a clue how the take looks until a few days/hours later. that way they can quickly decide if there needs to be a retake, and what changes need to be done

    2. Re:What's the point about this? by cdemon6 · · Score: 1

      but i do not lo-res rendering preview *after* recording to be a impressive feature, that's what i meant :)

    3. Re:What's the point about this? by deadfishhotmail.com · · Score: 3, Funny

      This will be resloved with the new nVidia GeForce FMXP 41000x It's supposed to be 3rd quarter this year. It's supposed to totally smoke anything ATI has right now, with photographic quality and with at least 6 times the Q3 fps. And it has outputs to a film projector. And built in lasers. And 7.1 Audio onboard. And a soda/Pizza exhaust port.

      ....and it's supposed to be profitable.

      --


      Who is this "Poster" guy and why does he own all of my comments?!?
    4. Re:What's the point about this? by JDWTopGuy · · Score: 1

      OH NO! They're going to have to start all over again on Duke Nukem Forever!

      --
      Ron Paul 2012
  6. Serious Question by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Interesting

    With all the excitement over ILM using Linux I'm wondering exactly how many Hollywood visual effects studios use Linux.

    1. Re:Serious Question by MrMickS · · Score: 3, Insightful
      Linux will be used on commodity x86 hardware for render farms by all effects studios, if not now in the near future. The reason for this. Bang for buck density. In order to render complex scenes you need a large render farm, the more faster units you have in the farm the better. It's cheaper to do this with x86 kit that anything else and the render software has Linux render engines written for it.

      More and more manufacturers are coming out with blade servers using x86 processors which will increase this density and likely increase the use.

      This is not saying that the studios are not running SGI kit for animation, modelling etc. Linux/x86 kit has a way to go to catch up there.

      --
      You may think me a tired, old, cynic. I'd have to disagree about the tired bit.
    2. Re:Serious Question by thpook · · Score: 1

      A lot of them use linux for render farms... at least with linux, you don't have to pay licensing based on the number of processors.
      I know that Maya comes with 9999 render licenses, so linux makes sense.

    3. Re:Serious Question by andyrut · · Score: 1

      A buddy of mine interviewed with Pixar, makers of Toy Story and Monsters, Inc. They apparently use Linux for all of their CGI as well.

    4. Re:Serious Question by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Any studio of consequence uses it, and has for a couple years. I was the manager of the systems departments for Centropolis Effects and Digital Domain, and during my tenure at each we implemented Linux into our pipeline (sometimes against management's wishes, contrary to their later comments and glory-grabbing) in 1999 and 2000 respectively. Linux is also used in some capacity at the desktop since most major packages (mainly 3D but some 2D, few paint) are also running under Linux.

    5. Re:Serious Question by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Sorry, one correction to my previous comment. Digital Domain did use Linux as far back as Titanic in a limited capacity on Alpha's. Only recently, though (the last 3 years), has it become part of the main pipeline for all types of renders, not just specialized/special-case renders.

    6. Re:Serious Question by phatvibez · · Score: 1

      Most of them do and have for a while...and if not they are currently starting the switch.

      Digital Domain, Disney, Double Negative, Dreamworks, Flash Film Works, Hammerhead Industrial Light & Magic, Pixar, Rhythm & Hues, Sony Pictures, Tippett, Weta Digital

      Linux was also used on movies such as Harry Potter, Stuart Little, Scooby-Doo and many many more.

      check out these links:
      linuxmovies.org
      movieeditor.com/linux.movies.html

      any of these LJ artilces:
      Robin Rowe LJ Articles

      --
      --- Brad (http://www.LinuxReview.net)
    7. Re:Serious Question by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Informative

      No competitive effects company uses SGI workstations as primary artists desktops.

      SGI still has a serious advantage in servers though.

  7. nothing inherantly special about dell/linux by AssFace · · Score: 5, Interesting

    The way that is worded, it makes it sound as if the processing power of an Intel/Linux combination is superior - whereas it is a matter of the bang for the buck instead.

    You can get more processing power with the latter since it is cheaper (I would imagine even moreso with AMD) and easier to maintain. But not because it is inherently special or faster in any way.

    I wonder if this will bring Silicon Graphics back into the favor of Intel boxes - for awhile they were okay with WinNT and Intel boxes, but then they dropped all of that - presumably for a higher profit margin and less hassle of maintaining multiple systems (also likely some break in business politics - perhaps someone at MS pissed someone off at SGI).

    --

    There are some odd things afoot now, in the Villa Straylight.
    1. Re:nothing inherantly special about dell/linux by Alan+Partridge · · Score: 0, Troll

      but the processing power of the Intel/Linux combinaton IS superior.

      Go and have a look at SPEC.org if you don't believe.

      --
      That was classic intercourse!
    2. Re:nothing inherantly special about dell/linux by AssFace · · Score: 2, Interesting

      I can look there all day and all it will do is back up what I just said.

      if you are talking about "running RISC chip A at 1Ghz is this much slower doing this than were I to run it on chip B at 1Ghz" - then that is totally different.
      that is a benchmark that is useless - especially in terms of real world usage.

      what is useful is exactly what I said in the first post - bang for the buck.
      If you run Dell/Linux and you pay $500 for one entry level node, and your budget is $50K for this project, then you can have 500 nodes to crunch data on.
      If you run SGI and pay $2000 for one entry level node and you have the same budget, then you are going to get more bang for the buck from the Dell/Intel/Linux combo.

      But it isn't that Dell and Linux are somehow special - they are just cheap. SGI has plenty of solution that kick the shit out of any Intel/Linux combo ever could - but they are cost prohibitive.

      you can point to Spec.org all you want, but that won't change basic economic theory.

      --

      There are some odd things afoot now, in the Villa Straylight.
    3. Re:nothing inherantly special about dell/linux by AssFace · · Score: 0, Redundant

      LOL

      uhh - 100 nodes.

      too early - need coffee

      --

      There are some odd things afoot now, in the Villa Straylight.
    4. Re:nothing inherantly special about dell/linux by Alan+Partridge · · Score: 4, Interesting

      I take your point, but the fact remains that the FASTEST SGI workstation is treacly slow - in absolute terms - vs the fastest Intel-based 'station. ILM couldn't care a fuck how much it costs, they want cutting edge speed (hint - they didn't buy their previous solution based on cost, they bought it based on capability).

      I work in TV, and I know first hand that SGI is losing out to commodity hardware running Linux, Windows and even to the Mac. SGI gear is just about hanging on thanks to discreet - but it's just a matter of time before an inferno for Intel product lands and a lot of Onyx racks hit eBay.

      Unless, of coures, SGI fights back...

      --
      That was classic intercourse!
    5. Re:nothing inherantly special about dell/linux by AssFace · · Score: 3, Interesting

      I think we are "arguing" the same points here. But I'm pointing out the semantics of it and how it comes about - but in the end I think the end result is likely the same.

      The article states that they upgraded their hardware and the new hardware is faster and cheaper than the prior hardware... uhhh, right - I'm pretty sure that is how the hardware world works.

      Where you could argue that Linux has its edge is stated right in the article - it is the driver support. SGI doesn't support certain drivers, and for good reason - they want to push their own stuff. So if they want to work with new hardware - like the new NVidia chips for realtime rendering the same way SquareSoft did, then SGI isn't going to help.

      Also, workstation speed is all relative - it depends on what you are doing on the particular workstation - are they slower at working with real-time video? are they slower at network filesharing? is their memory bandwidth too slow for the hardware to make full use the processor?
      To say it is too slow is a cop out - the hardware exists for a specific reason - SGI makes very action specific workstations, and they are areguably useless outside of that realm.

      And while it is a fantastic thing for you to be able to throw around that you "work in TV" as if what you say is now backed by all of that business instead of just your opinion - then by me saying that I once worked at a special effects house, I should now have more power in what I say right?
      I assure you that whether the effects house is SquareSoft, ILM, Digital Domain, or whatever - they all are businesses and have a single bottom line - they need to make money.
      In order to make money, they won't ignore cost as you say. But it might look like that if they are rationalizing cost (a 100 node cluster of SGIs might be a million dollars, but a 200 node cluster of Alpha boxes might be 1.75million - they are spending more money, but they are getting a much faster overall cluster).

      To argue over their workstations is silly in the end - the workstations are constantly being turned over at these places and nobody is ever satisfied with their performance. They don't really care if your workstation is top notch - what they care about is how fast the end product can be realized - if a faster workstation would result in that, then you get a faster one based on cost - but almost always, the entire focus of the drive of machines purchased is the rendering farm.
      Even then, it hardly ever is truly purchased - it is a lease type deal since the turnover is so high.

      I personally hated SGI when we worked with them and I much preferred the Intel boxes. So I'm not exactly standing up for SGI here, I mainly just thought the article was poorly written and should have called out the reason for switch better than just a reason to add one more article to the linux circle jerk.

      Also I should note that I wrote SGI/Intel on WinNT up there - that is wrong - it was SGI/Alphas with WinNT. I would imagine that Intel and AMD now making the new 64bit chips will lead to a lot bigger jump over SGI.

      --

      There are some odd things afoot now, in the Villa Straylight.
    6. Re:nothing inherantly special about dell/linux by AssFace · · Score: 1

      I give you high points on style - any well worded arguement should include "ass", "fucking", and "teabagging" - and excellent use of "stupid" to help your cause, I intially felt I might be swayed, but then there is the whole factual basis of your arguement which is lacking... so I guess I would still in the end find that you are wrong.

      That said, you did say "fucking dumbass" and I need to go lookup the internet discussion rules, but I think that might trump any rational thought that I might have actually made - damn.

      And if you read the other posts in this thread, you would actually see that I don't even like SGI, so I guess that rules out the "fanboy" part - but I'll give you "dumbass" - that one is dead on... I really am a dumbass.

      --

      There are some odd things afoot now, in the Villa Straylight.
    7. Re:nothing inherantly special about dell/linux by mcflaherty · · Score: 1

      Unless, of coures, SGI fights back...

      Am I the only one who read that as "SGI Strikes Back"?

      --
      -- I am become sig, destroyer of posts.
    8. Re:nothing inherantly special about dell/linux by MrMickS · · Score: 1
      I wonder if this will bring Silicon Graphics back into the favor of Intel boxes

      The SGI x86 boxen were strange beasts with freaky graphics cards designed to be used as graphics workstations. They were very good but very expensive, for x86 hardware. Why would anyone buy an expensive SGI branded PC when they can buy a cheaper one, slap a good graphics card in, and get good enough performance?

      There's no money for SGI in PC hardware, they've tried it and it flopped. SGI's market is making kit that can do things that PCs cannot do.

      --
      You may think me a tired, old, cynic. I'd have to disagree about the tired bit.
    9. Re:nothing inherantly special about dell/linux by Black_Logic · · Score: 1

      You can get more processing power with the latter since it is cheaper (I would imagine even moreso with AMD) and easier to maintain. But not because it is inherently special or faster in any way.

      Faster? No.
      Special? Hell yeah! :)

      --
      Ansi's and stupid tricks!
    10. Re:nothing inherantly special about dell/linux by nr · · Score: 2, Informative

      They where strange beasts yes, but kickass at the time. Was'nt there a special designed crossbar architecure which glued the onboard GFX circuts to the memory to alow jaw-dropping access times between the GFX and memory banks, I remember they had amazing memory I/O compared to the vanilla Intel boxes they competed with, which only had first generation of AGP. Another thing I remember is that they managed to do the impossible (according to Intel) of running the P-III CPU in a quad setup.

    11. Re:nothing inherantly special about dell/linux by FyRE666 · · Score: 1

      I used one for a couple of years (SGI 320) - the graphics were ok, but nothing amazing, certainly slower than the Geforce 2 for games use. Also it was very much tied to Windows NT/2000. Nothing else will run on them as far as I know. RAM was ludicrously expensive due to the shared memory pool I guess. USB ports were non-standard (voltages were slightly different AFAIK).

      In short, it was "alright", but certainly not worth the price, IMO. I only had a single 450mhz P3 in mine though, so maybe a dual CPU would have changed my opinion ;)

    12. Re:nothing inherantly special about dell/linux by akuma(x86) · · Score: 1

      In fact Intel/AMD *IS* inherently faster. Just look at the latest SPECfp scores on www.spec.org and you'll see the top end x86 systems kill everything else out of SGI. I mention SPECfp because that kind of workload corresponds well to the kinds of compute tasks that ILM needs to do. Linux is almost a non-issue. For these kinds of workloads the impact of the OS is invisible - it's all user-mode code crunching on inner floating point loops. The latest 3GHz Intel P4 has close to a 1200 SPECfp score. This is incredible for a machine with ONLY 512k of cache. Compare the cache sizes and memory bandwidths of the machines that beat x86 systems - hint - they're much much larger (which is a major contributer to system cost), yet the x86es keep up.

      There are large economies of scale at work. x86, as ugly as it is, is the fastest thing on the planet these days for compute heavy tasks.

    13. Re:nothing inherantly special about dell/linux by akuma(x86) · · Score: 1

      Apparently there is not much an SGI machine can do that a PC cannot do (or other unix machine) since SGI has not posted a yearly profit since 1997!

      I'm amazed that they're still around...They offer no value added.

    14. Re:nothing inherantly special about dell/linux by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      LOL is gay. It's mainly used by 350 lb. middle aged women on AOL. Have some pride man.

    15. Re:nothing inherantly special about dell/linux by AssFace · · Score: 1

      oh sure, you act like I'm not a 350lb middle aged woman on AOL.

      LOL OMG WTF BBQ

      --

      There are some odd things afoot now, in the Villa Straylight.
    16. Re:nothing inherantly special about dell/linux by evilviper · · Score: 1
      ILM couldn't care a fuck how much it costs, they want cutting edge speed

      And why didn't they get Alpha systems then?

      Alpha processors DO power 4 of the top 10 fastest computers on the planet...
      --
      Slashdot gets worse every day... Pipedot: News for nerds, without the corporate slant
  8. further proof by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

    that proprietary unix is dying

    1. Re:further proof by Alan+Partridge · · Score: 5, Interesting

      not even close

      further proof that commodity hardware is killing innovative companies like SGI, and a FREE UNIX is helping it happen.

      Linux is great for a company like ILM which is stuffed full of coders who can adapt it to suit their needs, not so good for many other companies.

      --
      That was classic intercourse!
    2. Re:further proof by MrMickS · · Score: 2, Funny
      mid 1980's - Mainframes are dying
      mid 1990's - NT will replace Unix
      late 1990's - Linux will replace Windows
      2000's - Linux will replace proprietary Unix

      None of these have happened yet. I doubt that the last will ever happen.

      oops missed one:
      late 1980's to current day - Apple is dying

      Pls mod down parent as overrated - it's an opinion based on an emotional response rather than reason.

      --
      You may think me a tired, old, cynic. I'd have to disagree about the tired bit.
    3. Re:further proof by Gumber · · Score: 1

      If commodity hardware is killing SGI, then they must not be sufficiently innovative anymore, either that, or their innovation was irrelevant to the market they once served.

    4. Re:further proof by Sinical · · Score: 1

      SGI deserves to die. Their service is shit, their hardware is shit, and their O.S. (IRIX) is ultra super duper shit. Why do we pay 6-figures for an 8 processor box and then have parts of it break within a month? Yeah, they come out and replace it for "free" (if you don't count the $$$ on the support contract), but the hassle of that is more than doing simple stuff myself. And, oh GOD, don't mention licensing!

      I have three biggish (8 processor) and three little (Octanes) that I kinda have to maintain as lead developer of some simulation software, and I hate hate hate SGI and pray daily for their death. As soon as I can convince someone to let us move to Linux, I'm putting a boot to SGI's head.

    5. Re:further proof by maizena · · Score: 1

      Oh boy... Those SGI's hack would make real nice freezers!!! yum

  9. NVIDIA + Maya 5? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Interesting

    Perhaps they're using Geforce FX's + the new hardware renderer in Maya 5. It sends geometry, shaders and lighting to the card for rendering, saving the finished frames to disk. This results in far faster rendering than making the CPU (not specialized for 3D operations) do all the work. Something like *twenty times* faster give or take, depending on the scene's complexity. Cool stuff here, people!

    1. Re:NVIDIA + Maya 5? by Guano_Jim · · Score: 1

      Disclaimer: I work in 3d for a living.

      That's an interesting idea. But why bother rendering out those frames to disk for a preview? Maya will hardware render with an alpha channel, just composite that over your live action in realtime. Faster, and saves disk space.

  10. Two Towers by alnya · · Score: 5, Insightful

    In the Fellowship of the Ring DVD, Peter jackson can clearly be seen watching golum on a monitor (low poligon, but golum none the less) performing the mo-cap Andy Serkis is performing IN REAL TIME; as it is happening (not after).

    So does this make this old news??

    I dunno, I feel the ILM have been behind the bleeding edge for sometime now...

    alnya

    1. Re:Two Towers by Zzootnik · · Score: 3, Informative

      No-no-no-no-no....That was Motion Capture.

      Sensors on Andy S's Body capturing movement data and feeding it into a computer...Much like the mouse you're waving around right now...

      --
      Sig currently under construction. Mind the gap....
    2. Re:Two Towers by chrisseaton · · Score: 3, Informative

      "Sensors on Andy S's Body capturing movement data and feeding it into a computer"

      Yes... and then rendering the character on top of the real from using the motion capture info.

      It's still realtime rendering.

    3. Re:Two Towers by tekunokurato · · Score: 2, Interesting

      no, I think that was wireframing. Yeah, it's true that it's still technically rendering, but not really very useful to the average person...
      This is much higher res (though obviously not THAT great) rendering, which is really useful.

    4. Re:Two Towers by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      No, numb-nuts. That image was an already rendered model and the motion capture was just moving it. ILM had that before Phantom Menace.

    5. Re:Two Towers by green+pizza · · Score: 1

      In the Fellowship of the Ring DVD, Peter jackson can clearly be seen watching golum on a monitor (low poligon, but golum none the less) performing the mo-cap Andy Serkis is performing IN REAL TIME; as it is happening (not after).

      That was motion capture... but it was indeed real-time... very similar to what ILM is now doing. In fact, it's actually a bit more hardcore.

      I dunno, I feel the ILM have been behind the bleeding edge for sometime now...

      I would have to agree there. ILM these days is a lot like MIT... awesome background and history, still a great place, but not the definitive leader it once was.

      BTW, if you look carefully at the motion capture monitor on that DVD scene... you'll see that it's SGI IRIX... *gasp*! : )

    6. Re:Two Towers by gfxguy · · Score: 1

      I got my current job 8 years ago. The first project was using motion capture. It was fairly low budget - we had ONE actor playing two roles. He'd suit up, perform one part, then we immediately played back that part while simultaneously recording the other part.

      We could watch on the monitors while we did this - so could he. We could play it back immediately, do more takes, mix and match the performances (like the first take of the first part with the third take of the second part).

      The motion capture actor wore video glasses (iGlasses or some such) and could see himself interacting with his other role.

      It was all quite cool, it was all done on SGI Onyx, and it was (in computer terms) ages ago. PCs can easily match what an Onyx was doing 8 years ago (in most aspects)... I don't even know what is so exciting about this.

      In fact, the article is quite vague. If we're talking about mo-cap, it's almost comical to see a current news report on it.

      If we're talking about "traditional" CGI, then the animation (if not the complete modelling) would have to be done ahead of time, then they can just play it back compositied with live video.

      Big deal.

      What am I missing? I suppose the animator can actually be there to tweak the key frames of the character, and then play back in real time, but even that's not very impressive since Maya started using OpenGL for the interactive rendering, and other packages have caught up and surpassed Maya in many respects.

      On top of that, we also have packages like VizRT (VizRT.com) that have excellent real time capabillities (being designed for LIVE broadcasts). Again, we've had VizRT (and it's predecessor, "Everest") for YEARS.

      This is simply not very impressive.

      --
      Stupid sexy Flanders.
    7. Re:Two Towers by Sandman1971 · · Score: 2, Insightful

      *GASP* motion cpature is not the same thing as inserting a complete animated CG character out of thin air.

      As far as motion capture goes, I remember seeing a Phantom Menace special which showed exactly that. Ahmed Best in a motion capture shoot, and a rough CG of JarJar on a monitor moving along with the actor. So to those neisayers out there, this was being done way before WETA did it for LotR.

      --
      It's better to burn out than to fade away
    8. Re:Two Towers by drinkypoo · · Score: 1

      I watched some LoTR early 3d visualizations which had nothing whatsoever to do with mocap on one of the interviews. It might have been a feature on some other documentary DVD that my girlfriend's cousin bought, and not on the four dvd set, which I also own.

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
    9. Re:Two Towers by tenzig_112 · · Score: 1


      A press release, my friend, can make anything "news."



      Reporters generally deal with PR people and snag quotes directly out of their press releases. So, it's no wonder that so many technology stories miss the point by several kilometers.

    10. Re:Two Towers by malducin · · Score: 1
      The fact is ILM has been doing this for quite some time too. The title (taken from the news bite from TheForce.net) is very misleading. I don't know how many people saw or read articles about the realtime system for compositing the miniatures of Rouge City for A.I. Also some other studios have been doing this.

      Yes this is old news.

      As far as the leading edge I guess having the biggest R&D dept. doesn't count, or having another paper (besides other presentations) atthis years SIGGRAPH doesn't count. Much of the technique for Gollum's skin (sub-surface scattering) came from an idea ILM made public at a RenderMan Users Group Meeting a few years ago. I guess those Sci-Tech Oscars a couple years ago, or something like the release of OpenEXR, were just figments of our imagination ;-):

      Smoke Simulation For Large-Scale Phenomena
      RenderMan, Theory and Practice
      Creatures, Critters & Clones: Styles and Techniques Unique to Industrial Light + Magic
      Academy 2001 Sci-Tech winners
      ILM Sci_Tech awards

      Or just read a few Cinefexes and CGWs.
    11. Re:Two Towers by Mac+Degger · · Score: 1

      No, that's not just wireframing...that's smoothed (=tesselated, probably at +1 itterations) and lighted mesh/poly/nurbs geometry. And for screening mocap data, I'd guess it's anything from 3000 to 10.000 polygons (I'd do 5-10.000 [depending on the hardware available] for a single character...which mocap usually is).

      This is very usefull, and has been around for a while.
      And that's all the article is...old news for those who do stuff even related to the field.

      --
      -- Waht? Tehr's a preveiw buottn?
  11. Yay! by Plissken · · Score: 2, Funny

    This will probably help on release dates for movies.

    We'll get to see Episode III sooner!

    1. Re:Yay! by sporty · · Score: 1, Funny

      Too bad you can't use that 3d technology in Duke Nuke'em forever.

      Wait a minute...

      [/joke]

      --

      -
      ping -f 255.255.255.255 # if only

    2. Re:Yay! by _ph1ux_ · · Score: 1

      ya but it still does nothing for you getting dates *to* movies

    3. Re:Yay! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      unless of course you happen to live in Europe. Films always come out significantly later, at least in the UK, purely for reasons of market division and maximising profit from each reason.

      Perhaps when the industry finally realises that crude legislation is doing nothing to prevent piracy they will abandon this venal and irritating release policy. If US-based websites, BB's, TV shows etc are all talking exitedly about some great film evryone's watching, I'll be fucked if I'll wait six months for it!

      The movie industry really has to learn the same lesson that we have taught the pizza industry. No matter how good it is, if it's late, you're not getting paid!

    4. Re:Yay! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      so we get to be disappointed sooner wooohoooo

  12. Why the Pills? by sweeney37 · · Score: 1

    Why the use of the Matrix logo? From everything I've gathered, The Wachowski's didn't use ILM...

    Mike

    1. Re:Why the Pills? by mike_mgo · · Score: 0

      Going off topic here but...What's with all of the new logos on the topics page? Matrix and LOTR I understand, but about 6 different ones for computer/console games?

  13. This has been coming for a while by ThundaGaiden · · Score: 2, Interesting

    I always thought with the current 3d cards coming
    out and the horsepower they can throw at things
    they would eventually be able to to tv quality
    3d animation programs in real time.

    Hopefully this is going to lead to alot more 3d
    animated series on tv in the near future , and
    in time pick up from where final fantasy left
    off. I still think it was such a pity that film
    didn't get the people into the cinema to watch it.

    But I think the advances they made will pave the
    way for the future. Mainstream 3d Anime here we
    come :)

    1. Re:This has been coming for a while by sigep_ohio · · Score: 1

      actually dreamworks and nbc are working on an all cgi show for tv this fall(if i recall correctly).

      --
      Beer Die is the game of champions Learning To walk my own path.
    2. Re:This has been coming for a while by gfxguy · · Score: 1

      I know you're probably referring to a completely animated show, but we've seen mixed environments (you probably wouldn't even realize it) for several years.

      On the one hand, there's virtual sets (also called "electronic" sets), which have been used live on a number of broadcasts, and there's also 3D graphics that are quite common (especially in sports broadcasting). I'm not refering to a little animation of the score in the upper left corner, I'm talking about really heavy 3D geometry being drawn in real time - cars for NASCAR, virtual video monitors - even light particle effects, all "live" (although often combined with pre-produced graphics).

      The truth is, the ILM article is not very impressive at all, it's actually quite weak. Being (somewhat) in the entertainment industry, it's almost a negative impression to see someone boasting about this right now. Motion capture setups have been doing this (real time playback, especially of low res models) for a decade.

      Even if you're talking traditional animation software (like Maya or XSI), real time playback of geometry (not raytraced) has been around for YEARS (When Alias became Maya, they switched to OpenGL for the interactive display, with pretty good results). Combining video output from one of these systems and compositing it with something you've just recorded for a quick preview is a piece of cake.

      The article is very light on details, but I'm not really impressed by this article at all... but I feel I really must be missing something. ILM are no fools, there must be something innovative in there that I'm missing.

      --
      Stupid sexy Flanders.
  14. Oh well by stephenry · · Score: 5, Funny

    Its a pitty they haven't got one of those to write the script!

    Steve.

  15. Hrmm by acehole · · Score: 5, Funny

    well, I guess they need to get that jar jar binks death scene juuuuust right.

    --
    Be you Admins? nay, we are but lusers!
    1. Re:Hrmm by docbrown42 · · Score: 4, Funny

      well, I guess they need to get that jar jar binks death scene juuuuust right.

      Naw. The actors kept screwing up just so they could kill Jar Jar again...and again...and again. Given the chance, I think most fans would do the same thing.

      --
      Ed Wedig
      Graphic design services
      docbrown.net
    2. Re:Hrmm by Mac+Degger · · Score: 1

      You know, I think Lucas did something incredibly smart.
      1. Jar Jar is obviously going to die; he gets built up in Ep.I and is set up for the fall in Ep.II.
      2. Now, when all the geeks hear Jar-Jar will die in Ep.III, they storm to the cinema's in even greater numbers than George lost for Ep.I and II to watch Jar Jar buy the renderfarm.
      3. ???
      4. Profit!!!

      --
      -- Waht? Tehr's a preveiw buottn?
  16. Re:Embedded journalists perhaps? by say · · Score: 1

    Or maybe we could just make the entire war in CGI :) Just artificial bombs, explosions and destruction. We would be able to make a real-time-war in almost no-time! Bush, Blair and Saddam would get their fun, and no lives would have to be taken.

    --
    Roses are #FF0000, violets are #0000FF, all my base are belong to you
  17. Impressive, most impressive! by count_dooku · · Score: 1
    Actors on the latest Star Wars film watch instant replays of their battles with CG characters.

    That's even more impressive since they haven't started filming it yet!

    --

    --
    For the book says, "We may be through with the past, but the past ain't through with us."
    1. Re:Impressive, most impressive! by JDWTopGuy · · Score: 1

      They must really be using the force!

      --
      Ron Paul 2012
  18. Was i the only one by Loosewire · · Score: 1

    that worried that
    "to Intel-based Dell systems running"
    would end windows?

    --
    Slashdot - The one stop shop for procrastination
    1. Re:Was i the only one by rigga · · Score: 1

      No it was just you. Dork.

      --
      RiGgA
  19. Will this really improve movies? by PyrotekNX · · Score: 2, Interesting

    It's hard to tell if this is anything more than a toy at this point. Marginal quality control is now possible. The time from pre-production to release might be a few days difference.

    The actors might be able to play their roles slightly better if they know what the final result will be. In movies like EpisodeII they were acting totally blind in front of a screen for most of the movie. Very little of it was actually built.

    The biggest question is "When will we have it at home?"

  20. Super news.. by grub · · Score: 1, Funny


    I hope this brings even more realism and depth of character to Jar Jar.

    --
    Trolling is a art,
  21. Don't get so excited by derrickh · · Score: 3, Informative

    The realtime images aren't -final- renders of the scene. They're just rough drafts. The scene still has to be rendered in full res/texture, which still takes hours per frame.

    What ILM has is a supercharged 'preview' button. Just like when you switch to wireframe mode in Lightwave or Maya and see a 'realtime' preview of the animation you're working on. But I'm sure ILM's version looks little bit better.

    D

    1. Re:Don't get so excited by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      there is no real information in this post

  22. Another nail in the SGI coffin by binaryDigit · · Score: 5, Interesting

    Well, as more and more cgi houses move off of SGI (and on to whatever), they are only really left with their server business. It's really a shame to see a once proud pioneer in the industry reduced to a mere shadow of their former selves, though I guess in this industry, its very common (e.g. DEC, Lotus, Compaq, etc). At this rate it's hard to even see them being around in 4 years, a definite takeover target.

    ob /. comment:

    SGI (aka Silicon Graphics Inc.) was found dead today at the age of 20. After being a high flyer in his youth, often seen hobnobbing with Hollywoods power elite, the latter years were not so kind and saw him in the throes of an identity crisis. Eventually his reliance on a small circle of friends was his undoing, as he was slowly replaced by more mainstream competitors. He will be sorely missed, as while he was at the top, he was a role model for "cool" in the industry, and helped to usher in one of the most exciting (and abused) technology shifts in the motion picture/video entertainment industry since the advent of talkies and color.

    1. Re:Another nail in the SGI coffin by green+pizza · · Score: 1

      Nobody in the Hollywood sector really misses SGI. Maybe for the stability of the recent hardware and the ease of maintaining a single machine rather than a network of smaller compute servers, but that's about it.

      SGI really dropped the ball when it came to pricing. They still make top-of-the-line gear and awesome graphics engines, but the cost is insane. SGI even makes a machine (Origin 3900) that can scale to 512 CPUs with a single machine. Every 16 CPUs fits into a 4U rackmount "brick". They did this for cost savings, as MIPS processors are pretty cheap to build and don't put out much heat. Sure, SGI's maddly complicated interconnect chips cost a bit, but not that much in bulk. So what does SGI charge for 256 processors? $2 million!!

      That right there is the problem. I don't think there would be a problem paying a 2x or even a 3x price difference to go with SGI over x86/Linux. But 10x? That's the deal breaker.

      That and SGI's snobbish attitude. Trying to deal with SGI is like a 16-year-old trying to deal with a salesman at a Rolls-Royce dealership.

    2. Re:Another nail in the SGI coffin by leeet · · Score: 1

      SGI actually owns Maya which is vastly used on the WinTel market.
      They recently won an Oscar award for their software. The only other company to even win an oscar was Pixar. I'm not too worried about them "dying" just now...

      --
      -- Leeeter than leet
    3. Re:Another nail in the SGI coffin by ePhil_One · · Score: 1
      ...being a high flyer in his youth, often seen hobnobbing with Hollywoods power elite...

      I like it, behind the music for Tech companies. It could run on CNNfn, or some such. Start with Osborne, Commadore, CPM, VisiCalc...

      I'm gonna get me some VC funding :^)

      --
      You are in a maze of twisted little posts, all alike.
    4. Re:Another nail in the SGI coffin by the+gnat · · Score: 1

      That right there is the problem. I don't think there would be a problem paying a 2x or even a 3x price difference to go with SGI over x86/Linux. But 10x? That's the deal breaker.

      You don't know what you're talking about, do you? You could buy 256 cheapo Dell boxes for one tenth that price, but that won't make a cluster.

      I recently saw negotiations to buy a Linux cluster from either IBM or Dell. The price they were talking about came to around $100,000 for a 24-processor configuration, with gigabit networking (not Myrinet or anything like that). That's about $4000 per processor (and these are dual-proc machines); the only reason it was this cheap is because it's an academic institution. If you wanted to buy a 256-processor configuration, you'd have to increase the infrastructure by a huge factor. You'd probably need faster networking as well. And it'd still never parallelize as well as the SGI. It would almost certainly be faster for farming out single-processor jobs, and some MPI programs might run very well, but you wouldn't get the ridiculous cost savings you just pulled out of your ass.

      Trying to deal with SGI is like a 16-year-old trying to deal with a salesman at a Rolls-Royce dealership.

      Our experience with SGI has been far better than with Dell, which misplaced a server order and then took weeks to replace it, and pretended that nothing had gone wrong.

    5. Re:Another nail in the SGI coffin by anonymous+loser · · Score: 1

      As anyone familiar with SGI's recent business strategy will tell you, they realized CGI was a dead horse and gave up on that market years ago.

      SGI has been pushing high performance computing for engineering and science as of the last couple of years, and they have had a few high-profile sales in this arena.

      NASA Ames (not too far from SGI BTW) has purchased a 1024 processor Origin. I saw the guy in charge of this lab at an HPC conference, and he was very gung-ho about the Origin's shared-memory architecture, and provided some extensive benchmarks to demonstrate his point.

      They've also made several large sales into universities, as well as the currently booming aerospace and defense market.

      And, lest you think it's all "government institutions" buying these Origins, I happened to have spotted Origins at a few different auto makers as well.

      So, while I'm certain they'll miss the revenue from the entertainment industry, they have done well enough in the HPC market to compensate.

    6. Re:Another nail in the SGI coffin by tenzig_112 · · Score: 1

      The only problem pushing thousands of uncompressed HD frames through a PC bus structure is like pumping the ocean through a silly-straw. SGI has a mature OS for media management, compositing, etc. and their hardware is unequalled.

      Fast math is important, but if your processor is waiting on your bus, you might as well be rendering that comp on a 286.

      Firms that make boxes (AVID/Soft) that do what my Octane can do keep telling me how great it is that you can cluster background renders (for effcts that are more or less realtime 601 on my machine).

      The openness of Linux on SGI hardware are a great match, but as long as people equate cheap boxen with "clusterrifficness," that fact goes largely unnoticed.

    7. Re:Another nail in the SGI coffin by malducin · · Score: 1

      You are confusing things. Maya won a Sci-Tech Oscar. Yes Pixar won a special oscar, but they had already won a few Sci-Tech awards as well. Even if you refer to graphics companies gettting an Oscar, that has happened many times over the years. Heck, this year alone, not only Maya won a Sci-Tech one, but also Mental Images for Mental Ray, and the guys at SideFX for Houdini.

    8. Re:Another nail in the SGI coffin by donglekey · · Score: 1

      That's wrong, Alias Wavefront is owned by SGI and doing well, but they are separate companies, and one will not be able to or want to subsidize the other. Mental Images won a technical achievement Oscar for Mental Ray, and Digital Domain won one a year or two ago for Nuke. Other winners include ultimatte and of course Pixar for various research.

    9. Re:Another nail in the SGI coffin by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Umm, hello?! anyone that is following SGI knows they have put most of their eggs in the Intel basket.Besides that they make high-end, innovative products for niche markets. Just so happens that the viz fx industry no longer can afford to innovate but instead go with cheap Dell boxes. (An aside, all that money that goes to Dell indirectly supports M$oft so think before you buy)

    10. Re:Another nail in the SGI coffin by captaineo · · Score: 1

      That is definitely true now, but remember that the rate of advancement for PC bus technology is much faster than SGI can improve its desktop workstation buses (not counting the big SGI servers here, since they are really in another league). A few years ago you couldn't even send a single SD video stream across a typical PC's bus; nowadays uncompressed HD is definitely within reach. SGIs have been doing both for a while, but the gap has narrowed considerably. I expect you'll see PCs with faster buses than Octanes and Onyxs within a year or two, just like the $200 NVIDIA/ATI graphics cards that surpassed SGI Reality Engines some years ago :).

    11. Re:Another nail in the SGI coffin by captaineo · · Score: 1

      The interesting twist here is that someone is still gunning for SGI's graphics workstation market - Apple!

      Consider their recent software-industry purchases, and their endless boasting about Maya and Shake and video editing. OS X's BSD layer is a trump card since all the high-end 3D studios are UNIX strongholds. Also I just started playing with OSX's OpenGL profiler, which fills a vital need for real-time 3D and has no equivalent on any other platform.

      Right now Linux is gaining lots of ground, but most studios see its primary virtue as being a cheaper, faster UNIX (they don't really care about the open-source or "tweakability" aspects). Even ILM just uses off-the-shelf Redhat distros, with no custom work. If Apple can offer a more pleasing out-of-the-box configuration (and I think they can), the studios might just jump all over OSX.

  23. The next innovation by imadork · · Score: 5, Funny

    would be to develop a program that re-writes Lucas's inane dialogue in real time...

    1. Re:The next innovation by ianscot · · Score: 1
      Maybe we already had the technology. Let's try Eliza.

      DV: When I left you, I was but a learner.

      Obi: We were discussing you, not me.

      DV: Now I am the master!

      Obi: How long have you been the master?

      DV: I am your father!

      Obi: Did you come to me because you are my father?

      DV: Search your feelings, you know this to be true.

      Obi: You're not really talking about me, are you?

      Hmm. Just about a wash between that and the real thing.

      --
      "Fundamentalism" isn't about divine morality. It's about human authority.
  24. What a scoop! by Ciderx · · Score: 1

    Where'd they find this amazing scoop? Possibly because there is an entire featurette about the realtime generation of CGI in the DVD release of Attack of the Clones? Out circa November 2002...

  25. Re:Embedded journalists perhaps? by akadruid · · Score: 1

    Sit them all down to a game of Civ2.

    --
    "Those who cast the votes decide nothing; those who count the votes decide everything." (attrib. Joseph Stalin)
  26. Realtime Plot help by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Funny

    Now if only that could help Lucas get realtime feedback that his plots suck.

  27. A stunningly inaccurate article by sgi_admin · · Score: 4, Interesting

    This is, largely, nonsense.

    These images are *not* realtime! A PC is not capable of rendering a CGI screen, in realtime, and merging that, in realtime, with a video feed, and then displaying that, in *realtime*.

    Say what you like about Linux, or high speed CPUs, or XXX vendor's high end GFX card - the architecture and the tools are physically incapable of this.

    If you look at the extras on the LOTR:FOTR DVD set, you'll see people walking around, with a camera on a stick. This *is* displaying real time camera images, merged into a low res, non final rendered, scene of the Cave Troll fight in Moria.

    A point of reference - the machine's they are using for this are SGI Octanes. Not Octane2s, but Octanes.

    They did that work around, what, 3 years ago? And the Octane, at that time, was only 3-4 years old.

    Can anyone show me a PC from 1997 that can manage that? Anyone?

    Despite the fact that the Octane is an ancient piece of kit, there is nothing from the PC world that can match it's capabilities.

    SGI have always been, and always will be, a niche player.

    You would be a fool to buy expensive SGI kit for a renderfarm - buy Intel PCs with Linux. Similarly, you would be fool to try and do realtime CGI with that same kit - that's a specialist task that calls for specialist skills.

    This article does not show that SGI is dying, or that they're being thrown out of the GFX workstation market.

    This article *does* confirm what is widely known - the once cutting edge ILM are now many years behind people like Weta Digital.

    Throwing around "Linux" and "Intel replacing SGI" sound bytes to try and get some news coverage for a dated effects house isn't going to change that.

    1. Re:A stunningly inaccurate article by Alan+Partridge · · Score: 1

      you've never heard of virtual sets then? The BBC uses them every single day.

      --
      That was classic intercourse!
    2. Re:A stunningly inaccurate article by sgi_admin · · Score: 1
      you've never heard of virtual sets then? The BBC uses them every single day.

      Indeed I have. I think you'll find they use a combination of Avid and SGI kit to display that.

    3. Re:A stunningly inaccurate article by Alan+Partridge · · Score: 1

      they did (Avid? Their systems use a Mac or PC host), but not anymore. Look at (for example) ForA's Digiwarp product - Win 2K based. Video Toaster? Win 2K based. There are others, but these two are real and they work - and they're nothing to do with SGI.

      --
      That was classic intercourse!
    4. Re:A stunningly inaccurate article by sgi_admin · · Score: 1
      Avid? Their systems use a Mac or PC host

      Avid's high end systems run exlusively on SGI kit, and are capable of significantly more than the lower end pre-prod stuff that runs on PCs and Macs.

      I've yet to see any solution that can match the capabilities of a 7 year old Octane in this area. The fact that you can cite software that is available that claims to do a similar job is irrelevant. It's not in use by broadcast studies and effects house, for the simple reason that it doesn't work.

    5. Re:A stunningly inaccurate article by the+gnat · · Score: 1

      Thanks, dude. I work with both Linux and SGIs, and I can confirm pretty much everything you say. But for my situation it's actually the reverse. SGI workstations were traditionally very big in my field, but we use Linux for almost everything now. However, we now have two Origin 300s for file serving, and the stability and performance has been far superior to anything we could get out of a PC. We don't need raw speed - we need something with bandwidth, that won't crash when NFS goes out of control. (But of course we'd never buy an SGI to do web serving...)

      I suspect most of the people on Slashdot who either bash proprietary Unix or pimp Linux clusters have never spent much time using or administering either.

    6. Re:A stunningly inaccurate article by SJ · · Score: 1

      If this can't be done on a PC, exactly how did Apple manage to make a DVD reflect off a spinning 3D model at WWDC last year?

      With a high-end video card, a Mac could quite easily do just that... render a 3D model and composite it onto a realtime movie in realtime. Their entire display engine is a real time compositor.

      So why can't a PC do this?

      Oh yeah... Apple only make Macs. :P

    7. Re:A stunningly inaccurate article by crammit · · Score: 2, Interesting
      Untitled Document

      From about 1995-98 I worked for an effects company, Tippett Studio, in Berkeley CA. We did giant bugs for the film Starship Troopers using a range of SGI boxes from a few years old to brand spanking new. At the time those machines, running IRIX, where a totally different experience from running a typical PC: They were fast and WAY STABLE, but all $10,000+. Working there felt like having a ticket to the future, and you felt like a race car driver sitting behind one.

      And then I departed Tippett Studio and bought a PC for a couple thousand bucks, running Softimage on NT, and guess what? - The sucker was faster than any SGI I had ever used, and almost as stable! Now I use Maya running on Linux - and it is also faster than any SGI I have ever used, and just as stable! Most animators I've talked to have had similar experiences - it's not that they want it to be that way, it just is that way.

      Now I'm sure SGI can cook-up a box that's more impressive than a typical PC of today, but I'd have to sell my house in order to buy it, and I'd be stuck with it for a decade, struggling to save up to buy a new one. I'll stick with cheap PC's and Linux, thank you.

      To say that SGI will always be a niche player is just ridiculous in my book. People use what's fast and cheap - PERIOD. Fancy logos and claims of superiority don't help people who just want to get the job done which minimum damage to the pocket book.

      I don't think owning an SGI can even get you laid any more, so why bother?

      Best be the idiot that has learnt, than the genius who can't.

    8. Re:A stunningly inaccurate article by Alan+Partridge · · Score: 1

      What are these "high end systems" that you're talking about? At our facility we have both a Symphony and a DS/HD as well as Unity and 10 Media Composer suites. All are PC or Mac based, of course. The last Avid product that I saw running on SGi was Matador, and I haven't seen THAT for quite a while...

      What are the Avid products that run on SGi hardware now? I'm genuinely curious to know if there are any.

      --
      That was classic intercourse!
    9. Re:A stunningly inaccurate article by poot_rootbeer · · Score: 1

      A PC is not capable of rendering a CGI screen, in realtime, and merging that, in realtime, with a video feed, and then displaying that, in *realtime*.

      They said that a baseline VGA adapter couldn't display more than 256 colors simultaneously, but coders on the demoscene figured out ways to do that. And did I mention these coders were often in their teens or early 20's?

      I don't think anyone thought they meant ILM was doing final-rendering of scenes that took days per frame a year ago, now in real-time. Off-the-shelf PC hardware IS more than capable of rendering lower-res, lower-polygon-count CGI objects and merging them with live video quickly enough to be called realtime.

    10. Re:A stunningly inaccurate article by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      What the hell are you talking about?

      What part of the Mac architecture makes it more suitable for a high bandwidth task like real-time compositing?

      It's not the ancient bus and RAM speeds.

    11. Re:A stunningly inaccurate article by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Oh, please... the onl reason people use 10 year old SGI machines is that they're still paying for them, and they're probably upside-down on the deal (ie: owe more than the thing is worth).

    12. Re:A stunningly inaccurate article by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I don't think owning an SGI can even get you laid any more, so why bother?

      Nuts.. time to sell up then! :)

  28. Not new.. by Lord+Grumbleduke · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Pah - Jim Henson's Creature Shop, Weta and Framestore have been doing this sort of thing long before ILM. Framestore did this for Dinotopia, Weta for Golum, and JHC for a variety of different things - all too numerous to mention here.

    1. Re:Not new.. by UrGeek · · Score: 1

      Thank you! I knew WETA Digital was doing this but not the other guys. ILM is catching up.

    2. Re:Not new.. by Alan+Partridge · · Score: 1

      Oh come on

      I used to work over at FrameStore, and I can assure that the tools and techniques that they used then would NOT have allowed them to tackle projects as big as thiose that ILM routinely do. Episodic effects are one thiing, but the intense cutting edge stuff seen in Star Wars Episode II are a little beyond an operation the size of FrameStore. FrameStore are great, but I don't know why it's hate ILM day today - they pioneered half of this stuff. Credit where it's due, surely?

      --
      That was classic intercourse!
    3. Re:Not new.. by malducin · · Score: 1

      I think it's mainly because of the rampant fanboyism on the net combined with the severe lack of knowledge about VFX and its history (though it doesn't help that the industry is kinda secretive). It's cool to praise the Matrix and LOTR and bash Star Wars and the VFX of ILM, no mater what. People can't seem to separate the story and direction from the VFX work. Hopefully by 2005 will get rid of this nonsense for a while. No more sequels of those and hopefully no movies to cause this nonsense (kinda like an AICN effect).

      As you say credit where it is due. Like people discredinting Harry Potter 2 because of their "dislike" of Dobby (loved the basilisk by the way)?

    4. Re:Not new.. by UrGeek · · Score: 1

      FrameStore? Who the hell say anything about FrameStore? I think you are replying to the work person.

      And to be clear, I love ILM! It is just that they are not the first people to do this one thing. They do AMAZING things and I am sure (i hope) I will be enjoy ILM (as well as others) effects for a long time.

  29. How long... by Raul654 · · Score: 1

    Till they beam it straight into my mind?

    --


    To make laws that man cannot, and will not obey, serves to bring all law into contempt.
    --E.C. Stanton
  30. Note to George by EricWright · · Score: 1

    It's not the effects that suck, it's the scripts. Try spending some time on those instead.

    1. Re:Note to George by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Scripts? We need those?

      I thought it was all about hi-tech special effects to "shock and awe" the viewing public. Why do we need a real plot?

      Geez.

  31. Real Realtime In My Dreams by handy_vandal · · Score: 1

    When the audience can watch the finished scene, complete with CGI, as the actors are filming it -- now that would be realtime!

    --
    -kgj
    1. Re:Real Realtime In My Dreams by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      No, that's called Broadway.

  32. It's the video card, not the CPU.... by Faeton · · Score: 4, Insightful
    Carmack himself (on Slashdot no less) has predicted this would come to pass, due to the increasingly feature-rich and faster video chipsets.

    SGI laughed at the unassuming threat of the video chipsets, thinking that they would never be as fast as brute force. Even Pixar thought the same. Boy, were they wrong though. You can set up a cheap-ass render farm for about $250k, taking up minimal space that can do the same job as a SGI render farm that costs a cool $2 million (Shuttle SFF PC w/ 3 gig CPU + ATI 9700). Of course, there's still the software side.

    The Nvidia's GeForceFX and ATI's Radeon 9800 both contain features that even through the marketing-hype has some real value to programmers out there. Just look at Doom 3. It will run well on some computers that are just 6 months old. Now, imagine taking 250 of them, as a Beowulf cluster!!1

    1. Re:It's the video card, not the CPU.... by _|()|\| · · Score: 3, Informative
      SGI laughed at the unassuming threat of the video chipsets, thinking that they would never be as fast as brute force. ... You can set up a cheap-ass render farm ... that can do the same job as a SGI render farm ... (Shuttle SFF PC w/ 3 gig CPU + ATI 9700)

      A high-end video card is used in a workstation for content creation. Final rendering, however, is still done in software (i.e., by the CPU), whether it's LightWave, Mental Ray or RenderMan. Don't waste your money on a Radeon for your render node.

    2. Re:It's the video card, not the CPU.... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Informative

      Actually Radeon 9700/9800 supports only 24bit floating point precision in the pixel shader and thus is unable to produce same quality as the software renderers which use 32bit floating point precision.

      GeForceFX supports 32bit floats and QuadroFX can be up to 20 times faster than the fastest CPU in the Maya5 which supports hardware rendering.

    3. Re:It's the video card, not the CPU.... by the+gnat · · Score: 1

      You can set up a cheap-ass render farm for about $250k

      Yes, but:

      1. Subtract from that at least 10% of the CPU power, because that's going to have downtime. (This is probably a low estimate.)

      2. Add quite a few dollars for increased admin time. If you don't care when boxes die, this won't be quite so bad.

      3. Add quite a few dollars for increased power consumption.

      4. A lot of that money will be spent on networking equipment.

      5. Quite a bit will be spent on a central file server as well.

      6. Forget about doing *anything* in parallel (though for a render farm, I don't think this is an issue - just render one frame per CPU at a time).

      7. You wouldn't make a Beowulf cluster this large; you'd have sophisticated load management software.

      8. You will not get 250 processors for $250k. Some collaborators bought a cluster from IBM and managed to push the price down to $100k. That's for 24 Pentium 4/2.4Ghz CPUs in twelve nodes. Dell couldn't do much better. (You might save a bit by assembling it yourself, but I doubt it.) There is almost always at least one node down.

      If you do things right, you still save money over buying an SGI supercomputer; this is one task where commodity hardware definitely can do the job. However, your price/performance estimates are totally at odds with reality.

    4. Re:It's the video card, not the CPU.... by caveat · · Score: 1

      Final rendering, however, is still done in software

      Erm, then why does SGI get all hot and bothered over the ability to add more hardware pipelines with G-Bricks? I think it's more that video cards are designed from the standpoint that you have to render in realtime, and your quality is what is variable, while SGIs are set up to render photorealistically, with time the variable. And I remember some older article about the new video cards being potentially great for rendering, but having huge hangups in putting the rendered frame back into the system, since they're designed for a huge throughput from RAM to GPU to monitor, not back to RAM. Or something, I'm just shooting from the hip here.

      --

      Facts do not cease to exist because they are ignored. - Aldous Huxley
    5. Re:It's the video card, not the CPU.... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It's because those G-Bricks are used to pump the graphics for flight simulators, giant panorama wide-screen displays, immersive domes etc.

    6. Re:It's the video card, not the CPU.... by raytracer · · Score: 1
      SGI laughed at the unassuming threat of the video chipsets, thinking that they would never be as fast as brute force. Even Pixar thought the same [siliconinvestor.com]. Boy, were they wrong though. You can set up a cheap-ass render farm for about $250k, taking up minimal space that can do the same job as a SGI render farm that costs a cool $2 million (Shuttle SFF PC w/ 3 gig CPU + ATI 9700). Of course, there's still the software side.

      Characterizing SGI as 'brute force' is unfair: many of the engineers responsible for development of SGI's graphics hardware can now be gainfully employed at places like ATI and nVidia. They weren't all "holding back" in the years that they worked at SGI: they were held back by the business model that SGI promoted and which drove their product development. Companies like 3dfx, ATI and nVidia are driven by a different business model, and since it involved delivering powerful graphics chips to the masses driven by the demonstrated desire for more realistic gaming experiences, they've literally cleaned SGIs clock. Similarly, the speed of Intel and AMD cpus have been advanced by participation in the highly competitive commercial market. It doesn't take a huge prophet to judge the outcome of this arms race: I did so nearly a decade ago.

      The quoted comments by Tom Duff are properly described as Tom Duff's, not Pixar's as a whole, but many of the comments he makes are correct: the amount of effort that are spent per pixel is many thousands of times higher than the amount of effort that can be harnessed with even the most advanced boards by nVidia. Nevertheless, it is certainly true that the presence of advanced computer graphics hardware with programmable shading is a terrific development for the film industry, and every studio and software development group is trying to discover new ways to use such hardware to reduce their development time and costs.

    7. Re:It's the video card, not the CPU.... by tspilman · · Score: 1

      SGI laughed at the unassuming threat of the video chipsets, thinking that they would never be as fast as brute force. Even Pixar thought the same [siliconinvestor.com]. Boy, were they wrong though.

      The problem with this logic is that video cards render things in a fundamentally different way from CG ray traced images. Carmack even mentioned that video cards will only approximate ray-traced scenes. For example you'll never get good object self-reflection using current environment mapping techniques. So technically Pixar is right as long as video cards never ray trace.

      --
      Tom the Sigless
  33. sweet by ptrangerv8 · · Score: 0

    We're getting closer to the ability to go truly virtual, in realtime...

    This world will be a scary (or cool) place in 25 years....

    According to me... ;beer;

  34. oh yeah by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Funny

    Post your server's url to slashdot, and we'll see just how realtime it is.

  35. Open? by Diabolical · · Score: 4, Interesting

    ILM developed its proprietary file format, OpenEXR

    Hmm.. i sense a trend in calling things open when they are actually closed. This is eroding the intended meaning of "Open" in front of fileformats or products.

    1. Re:Open? by Kupek · · Score: 4, Informative

      It was released under a modified BSD license.

    2. Re:Open? by CTho9305 · · Score: 1

      Maybe by proprietary they just mean that there was no satisfactory existing format, so they came up with their own? That doesn't necessarily mean they aren't making it "open". The article isn't clear about that.

    3. Re:Open? by tekunokurato · · Score: 1

      Yeah- it's just like organics. There are starting to be a real bunch of latte-liberal techies out there who just like to hear that they're consuming something vaguely open, and they feel that much better, regardless of whether or not it's true.

    4. Re:Open? by thatguywhoiam · · Score: 1
      Hmm.. i sense a trend in calling things open when they are actually closed. This is eroding the intended meaning of "Open" in front of fileformats or products.

      It's a continuing trend, pioneered by Avid with their totally closed Open Media Framework (OMF).

      --
      If Jesus wants me it knows where to find me.
    5. Re:Open? by hellfire · · Score: 1

      The question is, is the file format available for anyone else to download or not? If the file format is not available without "buying" a license, then the name is wrong.

      If you can download it somewhere freely, then its a case of yet another so-called Journalist who writes for emotion and knows nothing of the english language, and you should beat the writer with rubber chickens for using the wrong word.

      --

      "All great wisdom is contained in .signature files"

    6. Re:Open? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Um, where have you been? This has been going on since the 80's. ``Open Software Group''. Etc.

    7. Re:Open? by Alioth · · Score: 1
      Hmm.. i sense a trend in calling things open when they are actually closed. This is eroding the intended meaning of "Open" in front of fileformats or products.


      That's nothing new - 10 years ago, the proprietary Motif toolkit was being put out by the Open Software Foundation. "Open" has been used as a euphamism for closed for quite a long time.

    8. Re:Open? by dhess · · Score: 1

      It was called "EXR" internally until we open-sourced it. Now that it's freely available under a modified BSD license, we call it OpenEXR.

    9. Re:Open? by captaineo · · Score: 1

      In CG journalism "proprietary" traditionally means "home-brewed", as opposed to "secret." Proprietary code is custom-written but not necessarily secret. This is just a slightly different word usage from the software development press.

  36. Haven't we been diong this for years now? by 10Ghz · · Score: 0, Redundant

    Real-time CGI? Haven't we had that for years and years in 3D-accelerated games? The graphics in those sure seem real-time to me.

    --
    Lesbian Nazi Hookers Abducted by UFOs and Forced Into Weight Loss Programs - -all next week on Town Talk.
  37. it'll be awhile. by Multiple+Sanchez · · Score: 1

    you're going to have to investigate the real thing.

  38. Right... by amcguinn · · Score: 1

    You're Alan Partridge, and you work in TV

    I think you mean you used to work in TV

    And even The Day Today's brilliant graphic effects weren't that advanced from a hardware standpoint...

    1. Re:Right... by Alan+Partridge · · Score: 2, Funny

      I actually work with the guy who did those! They were done by Touch Animation AFAIK - now defunct. Apart from the fact that The Day Today's gfx didn't have a huge budget, they were also done quite a long time ago now - still excellent and groundbreakingly satirical (can gfx be satirical? you bet).

      On the Partridge point, you're forgetting my combat-based gameshow that runs on digital TV.

      --
      That was classic intercourse!
  39. Had do be said... [Spaceballs ref] by caveat · · Score: 5, Funny

    Dark Helmet - "What the hell am I looking at? When does this happen in the movie?"
    Col Sandurz - "Now. You're looking at now, sir. Everything that happens now, is happening now."
    Dark Helmet - "What happened to then?"
    Col Sandurz - "We passed then?"
    Dark Helmet - "When?"
    Col Sandurz - "Just now. We're at now, now."
    Dark Helmet - "Go back to then."
    Col Sandurz - "When?"
    Dark Helmet - "Now."
    Col Sandurz - "Now?"
    Dark Helmet - "Now."
    Col Sandurz - "I can't."
    Dark Helmet - "Why?"
    Col Sandurz - "We missed it."
    Dark Helmet - "When?"
    Col Sandurz - "Just now."
    Dark Helmet - "When will then be now?"
    Col Sandurz - "Soon."

    --

    Facts do not cease to exist because they are ignored. - Aldous Huxley
    1. Re:Had do be said... [Spaceballs ref] by Galvatron · · Score: 1

      DARK HELMET: How soon?
      CORPORAL: Sir.
      DARK HELMET: What?
      CORPORAL: We've identified their location.
      DARK HELMET: Where?
      CORPORAL: It's the Moon of Vega.
      COL SANDURZ: Good work. Set a course, and prepare for our arrival.
      DARK HELMET: When?
      CORPORAL Nineteen-hundred hours, sir.
      COL SANDURZ: By high-noon tomorrow, they will be our prisoners.
      DARK HELMET: WHO?

      --
      "The question of whether a computer can think is no more interesting than that of whether a submarine can swim" -EWD
    2. Re:Had do be said... [Spaceballs ref] by caveat · · Score: 1

      no no no, it's "WHOOOOOOOOOOO? *ka-CHUNK*" :P

      --

      Facts do not cease to exist because they are ignored. - Aldous Huxley
  40. a good step forward by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    But when holograms are renderd in high res to interact with the actor, people will think "this was the beginning. We've come a long way due to these huge leaps in technology." If it makes actors more believable and the movie better I'm all for it. If not, who cares.

  41. Internal monologue by Jonboy+X · · Score: 2, Funny


    Intel-based Dell systems running Linux

    So conflicted...Intel bad...Linux good...Dell ambivalent...

    --

    "In a 32-bit world, you're a 2-bit user. You've got your own newsgroup, alt.total.loser." -Weird Al
  42. Thank God.... by djupedal · · Score: 1

    ...he didn't have real time rendering when he created the Earth and the Stars.

    He might have changed his mind several times along the way, and we'd all be living inside a soap bubble right now.

  43. Where/When can they do this? by tekunokurato · · Score: 1

    How portable/scalable is this? I mean, if they had it during LOTR, they couldn't have used it when they were filming out in nature scenes, could they? A lot of stuff is done on sets, but a lot is also done in remote locations, and I'd think it would be seriously hindered under such circumstances.

    Jack

    1. Re:Where/When can they do this? by Lord+Grumbleduke · · Score: 1

      Rack-mountable flight case size? You'd get a number of 1U machines in there quite easily and as it'll be on wheels it'd be quite portable for wheeling about the set.

  44. If they were using the preemtive kernel by teamhasnoi · · Score: 4, Funny
    they could watch the CGI *before* it happened.

    Now that's Cost Savings!

  45. This is not real-time by trailerparkcassanova · · Score: 1

    Jeez Louise, if it's recorded and played back it's not real-time. The argument about the actor not being able to watch the monitor while performing the scene is pointless. It's still not real-time.

  46. SGI by zero_offset · · Score: 2, Informative
    I wonder if this will bring Silicon Graphics back into the favor of Intel boxes - for awhile they were okay with WinNT and Intel boxes, but then they dropped all of that - presumably for a higher profit margin and less hassle of maintaining multiple systems (also likely some break in business politics - perhaps someone at MS pissed someone off at SGI).

    I was friends with several SGI employees when SGI decided to ditch their Intel/WinNT support. Two of my friends were directly involved with the NT-related operations. The decision was mainly related to a series of falling-outs with Microsoft over things like the Fahrenheit relationship. Officially it was attributed to cost-cutting and re-focusing on core competencies, though (SGI has been in a bad way financially for quite a long time).

    These days a large part of their revenue stream depends heavily on service contracts for their custom hardware. It would take a seriously impressive balancing act for them to support commodity hardware and remain afloat...

    (As a side note, since their custom hardware is so heavily graphics oriented, when things go wrong it often does really interesting things... like an entire render-job where everything ends up with the same bump map, but is otherwise normal...)

    --

    Slashdot quality declines as the number of hot grits posts decreases. - Provolt's Law, Apr-09-2005

    1. Re:SGI by rf0 · · Score: 1

      SGI are still actually supporting all the NT boxes on a hardware level. Going from what I've heard from friend I have in the UK office is that they are a pain to maintain now. one reason sited for them getting out of the market was the ongoing support costs, and the actual prices charged for the support contracts didn't actually cover the costs of repairs

      Rus

  47. This is news how? by AveryT · · Score: 1

    This article is a no-op. The ability to generate CGI in real-time and composite it into a live video feed has existed for many years . It's called a virtual set. I personally first saw it demonstrated at NAB '96 (using SGI hardware of course).

    Sounds like all they have done is provide a better workflow by bring existing technology to a movie location and allowing them to playback the take with the (rough, not final) CGI added. It's not even real-time, it's just playing back a recorded scene with CGI added.

    This has zero to do with Intel vs SGI or moving to Linux-based render farms.

  48. sweet with a slightly bitter taste by adzoox · · Score: 1
    I have been involved in several technology conferences in Atlanta discussing IT advancements for CNN.

    I have been very surprised that they are FULL THROTTLE on trying to create something like real time virtual hosts. Their goal is to have people like Bernard Shaw giving the news in say 2050 (long after he's dead) They even make allusions to Max Headroom. But wasn't he a state controlled computer generated news and info person? Hmmm.

    I also found it interesting that hardly any of the reporters at the conference seemed worried that CNN thought there was no personal touch to the news. I have a preference for my local NBC affiliate's personalities. Essentially, this is saying that the news will eventually have no differing personalities and no new stars. All movies will star Tom Cruise and Arnold Swartzenager as lead male and The Olsen twins as lead females. All news will be given by Bernard Shaw or Bill O'Reilly.

    --
    Yell & scream & rant & rave... it's no use... you need a shaaaave ~ Bugs Bunny
    1. Re:sweet with a slightly bitter taste by gbjbaanb · · Score: 1

      I doubt that all acting will be performed by virtual Schwartzeneggers (or any acting for that matter - read that how you like ;-)

      I think that, newscasters aside, the acting unions will start to jump up and down in a very agitated manner when a virtual actor starts replacing real life actors.. not to mention that the live actor who was copied will expect huge payments for use of his image (or his estate will).
      When vested interests start to think they will lose money, there'll be all hell breaking loose - and we'll probably end up with real actors playing alongside 1 or 2 animated add-ons - think Jar-Jar or Gollum, or with virtual copies of the playing actor in only a few scenes (instead of a stunt double).

    2. Re:sweet with a slightly bitter taste by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Why limit them to just twins?

  49. I agree... somewhat by green+pizza · · Score: 2, Interesting

    A moden dual proc Xeon can come very very close to what an Octane was able to do in 1997. It's not the same thing, but it's close enough to do the job. Octane2 (with the right software) would be overkill, so here are the differences between a used Octane and a dual Xeon:
    The Xeon is new. That means you can get a good warranty and not have to worry about using used equipment.
    The wiz-bang factor. These days most SFX software runs on both IRIX and Linux. Even Apple's Shake does. So does all of the latest Linux utilities. It's "cooler" to many people to use a Linux workstation over an Octane.
    The CPU. Granted, the Octane's torque came from it's architecture, not its CPU... but this alone does not make up for the raw power of those Xeons. It's like racing an 18 wheeler with a F1 race car. The 18 wheeler can haul a lot more, but the F1 race car will get you to the local Wal-Mart a lot faster. For small tasks, the Xeon will feel a lot faster.

    This is why you'll still see a lot of existing Octanes, Octane2s, Onyx/Onyx2/Onyx3000 systems in use by hollywood. They work fine. But for new employees, and for replacement hardware, you'll almost certainly see a dual proc PC running Linux. There are, of course, come artists that prefer one over the other.

    As for render farms, you're right. It only makes sense to use Intel or AMD. Using SGI (or Sun) big iron for rendering would be insane. The render software isn't even optimized for IRIX or the SGI Origin architecture anymore. I think the very last holdout was ILM, who still had their three huge Origin 2000s. (Running 1999 R10K 250MHz processors [about the equiv of a PIII/550]..... no wonder they find their new renderfarm to be faster.....).

    You're right on the money about ILM being behind Weta (and possibly others). ILM is still a cool shop, but not as current as many of the others. Hell, ILM did most of the work for Episode 1 on SGI O2s. O2s! The O2 was an ok video editor, by no means a 3D or CPU powerhouse! I can't belive they got it done at all. There are HUGE differences between the O2 and Octane.

    1. Re:I agree... somewhat by sgi_admin · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Good points, well made.

      As an aside, I would say that you can buy 2nd hand Octanes, phone up SGI, and they will give you a support contract - they will even check the machines over for you.

      The total cost will be a fraction of the cost of a new dual Xeon workstation.

      Again, this would be a foolish decision to apply across the board, but if you're doing the sort of effects work where the strengths of something like Octane are a bonus, it's a good solution.

      I know someone who runs an effects house who has bought dual CPU Octanes and 4 way Origin 2000 desksides for each of the animators.

      The Octane gets used for the creative work, the Origin for the render.

      They're using Maya5, and this solution cost them less than the cost of dual Xeon gfx workstations for each animator, and a render farm. A renderfarm sounds like a cool idea, but it's not just the cost of the kit (something people on /. seem to forget). It's the cost of the network infrastructure and storage to support it all. If people think SGI workstations, new, are expensive, you should check out the costs of a SAN to support the work of a renderfarm!

    2. Re:I agree... somewhat by Cecil · · Score: 1

      The 18 wheeler can haul a lot more, but the F1 race car will get you to the local Wal-Mart a lot faster. For small tasks, the Xeon will feel a lot faster.
      Yes, that's actually a very good analogy. Keep going, though. Is there really any computing task that involves 'hauling' more data, than rendering 3D video? Would you propose using an F1 to move a truckload of stock to the warehouse? Hm, the benefits of the F1's speed just went down the toilet, eh?

      Frankly, most video rendering companies only use an 18-wheeler because they can't fit (or afford) a supertanker in their server room.

    3. Re:I agree... somewhat by malducin · · Score: 1

      So what if they used somewhat older machines to do the VFX of those movies. The O2s were used for interactive work mostly, then sent to the renderfarm which has quite a few procs available. Besides it doesn't matter since all their R&D and propietary software, mind stuff that sometimes was way beyond most things, ran on SGI hardware. Like say how they wrote MEL and Maya plugins for things like rigid body dynamics for the battle droids to stuff to simulate bending metal, the constrained dynamic sims of Pearl Harbor and oh so many other things. Just read some Cinefexes and CGW to really get an idea. Many of the things ILM comes up with make it downstream and are adopted elsewhere. The skin for Gollum came from an original idea by ILM, which in turn used the Jensen paper from Stanford to start with. Same with ambient occlusion and many other things. Just check the few SIGGRAPH papers they have presented in the last couple of years. OpenEXR is being adopted by several studios and graphics vendors.

  50. ahh for the days of 1hr=1sec by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Interesting
    yes way back during the creation of "The Last StarFighter" on our Cray XMP (worlds fastest couch) we had a rule of thumb - one second of film takes one hour to render. The better our rendering got, the more stuff the artists put into the scene.


    now many of those folks from 20yrs ago are running the 3d shops of today. Cheers to you all!

  51. It's neither by sgi_admin · · Score: 3, Informative

    You need to be able to render something in realtime, combining rendered scenes and a live video feed, and then to display that on a monitor or writing it out to digital storage - and all in real time.

    This is not a function of the CPU of the GFX card - they both play a part, but not as much as you seem to assume.

    The main thing here is *bandwidth*. You have to have a large amount of non-contentious bandwidth to chuck all that data around.

    Point to point bandwidth between multiple devices - CPU to memory, CPU to GFX, GFX to memory, CPU to output pipe, input pipe to GFX, etc. etc.

    One approach was UMA, which SGI pioneered in the O2. A 7year old SGI O2, even a low end one, can handle 800mb textures in realtime with ease. There is little available today that can even approach that.

    Another approach is some sort of IO switch. SGI have the crossbar in the Octane/Octane2, which is old tech based on the IO infrastructure of the Origin 2000.

    The Octane's crossbar switch gives you a large amount of non-contentious bandwith, which is why, for instance, a low end 195mhz SGI Octane from 1998 can apply in incoming digital feed as a texture to an object, and display that on digital output, in real time.

    Remember the Anubis warriors in The Mummy Returns? Their skin was a texture from a feed that was applied in real time - this was so the animators could get a good feel for how their animation changes effected the scene.

    Sun have a similar sort of setup with their UPA crossbar on their Ultrasparc kit. IBM and DEC^W^Compaq^WHP a similar deal.

    The reason UNIX vendors can charge lots for their kit is the years of R&D they've put into solving problems like this, which just don't appear on low end commodity kit.

    The Origin2000 can scale to 1024 CPUs in a single system image - it's one OS, no partitions. Sure, that's for a niche market, but it doesn't change the fact that there is a serious IO contention issue that needs to be solved in that scenario. SGI have then taken that solution and thrown it into their graphics workstations.

    CPU speed and gfx speed will not help here - neither will the OS. Linux or Windows, ATI or Nvidia, PC solutions will not cut it in this area - the underlying architecture is poorly suited to those sorts of tasks.

    Niche markets for people like SGI will always remain small, but despite the ill-informed nay sayers, they will never die - because there is a need there, and there is no commodity kit that can do the job.

  52. Re:Two Towers - Yes, and on SGI hardware :) by leeet · · Score: 1

    If I'm right, he actually mentions that this is made realtime via SGI hardware :)

    --
    -- Leeeter than leet
  53. It's the... BOTH by green+pizza · · Score: 2, Offtopic

    It depends on which part of the production world you're talking about...

    For rendering, you need raw CPU power and middle of the road networking. A rack of dual proc PCs and a 100BaseT switch is plenty for most 3D people.

    For 3D modeling, a good graphics card and a strong PC behind it is what's needed. You want a card that can handle the polygons, can handle the textures, and has enough cache for all of the display lists. A 3DLabs Wildcat-series card on a modern PC is good enough for almost any 3D animator. And will be faster than all but the fastest SGI.

    For compositing, you really do need the big iron. There is no PC out there that can handle 3+ streams of HD at the same time, let alone layer them, adjust the colors, add effects, etc. in real time. This can be done without much sweat on an big modern SGI running IFX Piranha or Discreet Inferno. The big catch is RAM and the RAID performance. 8 GB of ram is a good start and a sustained 500+ MB/sec coming off your multiple channels of fibrechannel is a must.

    Don't get compositing confused with "painting". Painting is where you take one frame of a movie and touch it up with paint tools (Amazon Paint, FilmGIMP, etc) then flip thru the other frames noting any needed changes. This can be done on Mom's Pentium 3.

    There are, of course, cheaper solutions that don't work as well... but for some folks, that may be good enough. Shake on a Mac, Linux box, or low end SGI does a good job. So does Combustion on a modern wintel PC. It's *can* work with HD, but you need patience and realistic expectations. It's not realtime in any way, by any stretch of the imagination.

    So yeah... there are lots of machines to choose from, and many tools for many jobs. If the Shuttle could hold a real gfx card (Wildcat 7210, for example) it would be a 3D modeler's dream. With the ATI 9700, it's only for games or light use of Maya and friends.

    You also have to keep in mind what gets bought with the money. A $2M SGI usually includes lots of RAID hardware... and a machine that can handle 100s (often 750+) sustained MB/sec without problems. It's required to do the heavy lifting jobs.

    Also note that SGI doesn't sell "Render Farms". Big SGI gear is usually used to support one task... generally compositing, somtimes multiple projector realtime 3D work (such as a six-sided reality CAVE). The spare CPU cycles are sometimes used to render in the background.... but rarely is SGI hardware used to render when a cheap PC cluster can do it faster anyway. It'd be like trying to enter a F1 race with your Kenworth 18 wheeler.

    There are also SGI workstations like the O2 and Octane... they used to be used for 3D modeling and low-res realtime work. Still used by many studios, and even broadcasters. Still very popular for the weather maps on the local news for for drawing the yellow "virtual first down line" on live football games. Not heavy work, but there are some gotchas involved. The stability is handy there.

  54. this is REALLY old news by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    ILM was doing this two years ago on AI with a modified game engine so Spielberg could do virtual location scouting and framing in camera with actors. I guess it's important to the /. crew now because Linux is mentioned in passing :-P
    There was an article in computer graphics world
    (www.cgw.com). Do a search for Kubrick and you'll find it.

    1. Re:this is REALLY old news by Lord+Grumbleduke · · Score: 1

      I remember watching a documentary about this - they hooked up a video camera to the system and wherever you pointed it, you would get a rough 3D rendering of the virtual set in "real-time", with the actors composited within it (IIRC).

  55. *BSD is dying by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
    It is official; Netcraft now confirms: *BSD is dying

    One more crippling bombshell hit the already beleaguered *BSD community when IDC confirmed that *BSD market share has dropped yet again, now down to less than a fraction of 1 percent of all servers. Coming on the heels of a recent Netcraft survey which plainly states that *BSD has lost more market share, this news serves to reinforce what we've known all along. *BSD is collapsing in complete disarray, as fittingly exemplified by failing dead last in the recent Sys Admin comprehensive networking test.

    You don't need to be a Kreskin to predict *BSD's future. The hand writing is on the wall: *BSD faces a bleak future. In fact there won't be any future at all for *BSD because *BSD is dying. Things are looking very bad for *BSD. As many of us are already aware, *BSD continues to lose market share. Red ink flows like a river of blood.

    FreeBSD is the most endangered of them all, having lost 93% of its core developers. The sudden and unpleasant departures of long time FreeBSD developers Jordan Hubbard and Mike Smith only serve to underscore the point more clearly. There can no longer be any doubt: FreeBSD is dying.

    Let's keep to the facts and look at the numbers.

    OpenBSD leader Theo states that there are 7000 users of OpenBSD. How many users of NetBSD are there? Let's see. The number of OpenBSD versus NetBSD posts on Usenet is roughly in ratio of 5 to 1. Therefore there are about 7000/5 = 1400 NetBSD users. BSD/OS posts on Usenet are about half of the volume of NetBSD posts. Therefore there are about 700 users of BSD/OS. A recent article put FreeBSD at about 80 percent of the *BSD market. Therefore there are (7000+1400+700)*4 = 36400 FreeBSD users. This is consistent with the number of FreeBSD Usenet posts.

    Due to the troubles of Walnut Creek, abysmal sales and so on, FreeBSD went out of business and was taken over by BSDI who sell another troubled OS. Now BSDI is also dead, its corpse turned over to yet another charnel house.

    All major surveys show that *BSD has steadily declined in market share. *BSD is very sick and its long term survival prospects are very dim. If *BSD is to survive at all it will be among OS dilettante dabblers. *BSD continues to decay. Nothing short of a miracle could save it at this point in time. For all practical purposes, *BSD is dead.

    Fact: *BSD is dying

  56. In my experience ... by RageEX · · Score: 1

    real time on Silicon Graphics is much better than real time on any PC platform I've used (no such thing as guaranteed rate I/O on PCs yet?). However the PC is much much cheaper per unit of performance. I guess if you're clever enough to get what you want out of something cheap then hats off. Silicon Graphics is really the better/nicer/cooler/more elegant solution, iff you've got the money.

  57. doesn't seem that great by dfj225 · · Score: 2, Insightful

    As much as I love ILM and what they are able to do with technology and movies, this doesn't seem like that great of a thing. If all they are writing about in the article is being able to see how the film they just shot will line up with a rough animatic, then thats not that great. I'm guessing what they have is much like what Weta Digital had to make the cave troll and other stuff in Balin's Tomb. Now, I would have been shocked and surprised if they said they could render a CGI scene with full effects, shaders, and the like in real time. That will be an accomplishment. What they have now (if its really like what Weta has) is no more than a video game with input based on the positions of sensors rather than a controller.

    --
    SIGFAULT
  58. computer games by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    It really makes you wonder what they mean. Computer graphics have been realtime all along.

    You reduce the complexity and effects enough and you can make it real time on a 386 (primitive wireframes).

  59. ANOTHER Star Wars movie??? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Why God, why??? Can't George Lucas just be content with the wretched shit he's produced to date in episodes 1 & 2?

  60. Are those your ass-lips moving? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Interesting

    The entertainment sector was never a big business area for SGI. A very VISIBLE business area, but not a large one.

    Stuff like this is inevitable. Computers get faster, so what used to be very difficult is now easy, so you can do it with commodity parts.

    What used to be impossible is now difficult. That's what SGI does. They don't charge 2 million for a computer because they're snobs, they charge it because 1) That's what it costs to develop the things and 2) They solve problems that people are willing to pay $2 million to solve.

    All this says is that the CGI problem has become simple enough to solve that you don't need $2 million to solve it anymore. So SGI just moves on to solving other $2 million problems that cost $50 million to solve a few years ago.

    All we're seeing is one problem set fall out of SGI's target market as different problem sets fall into it.

  61. you are ready for management when... by nomadicGeek · · Score: 0

    Some poor geek pours his heart into a project turning what a few years ago would have been just a wild ass dream into a common place occurance using off the self components and a free OS.

    And this is your response.

    Is your hair growing pointy yet?

  62. Mmmm... by nonetheless · · Score: 1

    Holodecks.

  63. in search of the perfect slashdot topic by rtphokie · · Score: 0

    Star Wars !!!!! Linux !!!!!! Intel? Now if this only mentioned Apple, it would be the perfect Slashtop topic

  64. Read the article! by AveryT · · Score: 1

    ILM CTO Cliff Plumer attributes this amazing leap to the increase in processing power and a migration from using Silicon Graphics RISC-Unix workstations to Intel-based Dell systems running Linux.

    No he doesn't. If you read the article he makes no connection whatsoever between the move from SGI to Linux and the ability to preview CGI on a movie set.

    What he does say is:

    Many of the tools used on post-production special effects have made their way onto the set

    There is no technology breakthrough here. Tools that have existed for many years have simply changed location to the movie set. I'd be very surprised if other shops hadn't already done this many times over.

  65. CGI scripting by mlush · · Score: 1

    Its a pity they didn't have realtime CGI scripting for the first two movies they may not have sucked quite so much

  66. Dell...Evil!!! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I do not think tech people should support the likes of dell because they do not really do any R and D and that is how they are so cheap. We must support companies that employ engineers and actually develop products. All I know as an engineer as companies like dell cause the massive layoffs and all the problems at HP who now wants to be dell. Long live the old HP, DEC, SUN, SGI, and apple because without their research expenditure the PC would be nowhere, PCs should be limited to just PCs and not steal market from the source of innovation.

    1. Re:Dell...Evil!!! by Jonboy+X · · Score: 1

      Hell, man, I work at Sun. Dell's just a reseller, which is what Sun'll be in 5 years anyway. Build a name, sell to ignorant CTO's, profit!

      --

      "In a 32-bit world, you're a 2-bit user. You've got your own newsgroup, alt.total.loser." -Weird Al
  67. Too Late for Regrets by Michael_Burton · · Score: 2, Funny

    ILM CTO Cliff Plumer attributes this amazing leap to the increase in processing power and a migration from using Silicon Graphics RISC-Unix workstations to Intel-based Dell systems running Linux.

    Well, I hope all you open-source advocates are happy now. You worked to develop Linux and other open source software because it was "cool," and I'm sure you all had a great time making it more and more powerful. I'll bet you never gave one minute of thought to the fact that the software you were producing might make it easier to make those awful, awful movies, did you?

    Well, it's too late now. I just hope you're satisfied!

    --
    When all you have is an axe, everything looks like a grindstone.
  68. but didn't you know... by g4dget · · Score: 1

    This obviously has to be a lie. Didn't you know? X11 cannot support high performance graphics, and there are no good drivers for XFree86. "Everybody" says so. ILM must be making all of this up. They probably really have an army of animators in little boxes doing the drawing in real time, and they want to keep them from unionizing by claiming that they are "Linux" boxes.

  69. Spaceballs The Movie by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Spaceballs the movie! It's on video before it's finished being filmed. So I guess they really could look at "now"

    1. Re:Spaceballs The Movie by DirkDaring · · Score: 1

      When will then be now?

  70. There are reasons for buying SGI... by green+pizza · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Apparently there is not much an SGI machine can do that a PC cannot do (or other unix machine) since SGI has not posted a yearly profit since 1997!

    It's amazing they still have a few dollars in the bank. They've sold some patents and sold off Cray (albeit for pennies on the dollar from what they originally paid), but to last that long is impressive in itself.

    Any any rate, SGI does offer unique and unmatched products *in certain areas*...

    Do you need a shared-memory supercomputer that can scale to 512 processors with the same exact kernel that runs on a desktop model? Or how about 1024 processors with a simple kernel patch? Very few people need that much IO across that many processors, but for those that do, there is no better choice.

    Do you need a machine that can handle dozens of channels of 2gbit fibrechannel without breaking a sweat?

    Do you have an insanely complicated set of HD video files and other material that need to be layered/composited? Does this job need to be done yesterday? Is full-resolution/full-quality realtime effects work needed? Piranha or Inferno running on an Onyx 3000 (plus gobs of ram and disk arrays on several channels) can do this for you.

    Are you interested in seeing the true potential of Linux? Do you want to work with a true Itanium2/Linux supercomputer... one that is way more than a cluster? Want to see a single machine (again, not a cluster) with 64 processors and 512 GB of RAM? Yes, Linux can handle it too, because of SGI's kernel patches and hw/sw architecture.

    Not many people need or can afford SGI big iron... but for those that do, nothing beats the SGI Origin and it's baby cousin, the Altix.

  71. Re:Embedded journalists perhaps? by DavidS · · Score: 1

    That might give a new meaning to "shock and awe"

    dks