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Ostrich Lessons In Oregon?
dalslad writes "Oregon Schools Prove Linux Saves Money, says the headline but this article says "One has to wonder if Northwest school districts took ostrich lessons; they must represent the biggest secret in the Linux community. If their successes occurred in New York, Microsoft would be fighting for 5% of the PC desktop share". Maybe so? I've seen a lot of sites with Linux success stories, but the K12 Linux projects show progress I never knew existed." Yeah, I don't think that the schools are going to prove to be the sole factor in Linux on the desktop, but it's a good step. More importantly, I think the success of the system depends on projects like the K12 Linux project and its like, especially for broader individual usage.
With Microsoft's desire to have complete market dominance, how long before they start offering schools free, or cut-rate discounts all under the guise of "charity"?
Get 'em hooked early, then they'll never be able to stop using it.
Mike
Yeah, I don't think that the schools are going to prove to be the sole factor in Linux on the desktop, but it's a good step.
Remember way back when, when Apple donated a bunch of Macs to the schools? Yeah, then the parents all bought Macs for compatibility and because their kids knew how to use them.
That was when computers were new; however, teaching them how to use Linux at a young age can affect how they decide later on. Now when they see Linux, they won't think "Ugh, I'm not going to be able to use it, so even if it is free..." - they'll be thinking "Hmm, I learned how to do this in school, maybe I'll try it at home."
This is a nice step...
Sometime back, I tried searching thru the Google news site, for the Oregon Open Source bill. Curiously, I got a wrong reference to a March 6 Slashdot article. Right now, Google lists 'zero' matches for an "Oregon Microsoft Slashdot" search.
Something crazy going on between Google and Slashdot? Why this hide-and-seek??
If you keep throwing chairs, one day you'll break windows....
Of course having Linux in Public Schools will make Linux appear everywhere. Just look at Apple's success with the same strategy.
The problem becomes one of kids thinking that Linux is a "training" computer environment, and that when they "grow up" they get to use a real environment.
I demand a million helicopters and a DOLLAR!
Linux is great. I personally use it as a server (along with FreeBSD), and I have RH8 running in a desktop configuration. However, I still haven't completely rid myself of Windows because I am lacking certain types of software that will run on Linux. Dreamweaver for myself and my wife, and a multitude of educational games for our kids.
So I have a question... what is available to replace this type of software? I haven't heard of _any_ educational games for kids! Is there some other way that I can solve this problem?
Helping with organizational effectiveness is our job.
(Software Resources)
Application Index:
Latest updates on the Education-related Application Index
XML error: not well-formed (invalid token) at line 41
Very encouraging.
I think it's well-agreed that most MS users are that way because of simple familiarity. Your run-of-the-mill user wouldn't port to Linux or another platform (even apple, as easy as it is to use) because they all seem foreign and counter-intuitive (this because intuition is based on repeated experience).
Because of this, it seems critical to catch kids early, before they become pigeon-holed into one particular OS (or any software package). Rather than using Linux exclusively, perhaps a revolving curriculum would be most helpful --Linux, MS, Apple, etc. Provide the variety of experiences that helps kids to learn the similarities among systems that makes for general intuition rather than intuition that is product-specific.
... and then if Microsoft acts as a charitable organization, they're free to ignore the national do-not-call list, and interrupt my dinner to try to sell me Frontpage 2004!!!
I was personally involved in pushing for linux use in school networks, and met with huge amounts of resistance - especailly immediately after that point at which MS threatened to audit Portland public schools with their gestapo license enforcement crap. I swear to honest god someone on the school board was getting paid off or some shit.
We installed linux at a few schools anyway, on their network cores, only to come back later and see that the admins had come around and installed win2k right behind us.
I wonder why MS isn't offering these cut rates to schools like they do to countries and organizations that are threatening to use OSS.
Fuckers.
It reads like a bad babblefish translation. I expected better from Linux Journal. While one of the headings in the article asks, "Can You Explain the Oregon Legislature?" I would ask of Linux Journal, "Can You Explain Who Edits This Stuff?"
Lasers Controlled Games!
I don't think that the schools are going to prove to be the sole factor in Linux on the desktop, but it's a good step.
Maybe it won't be the sole factor, but it sure as hell is going to make a huge difference. Think of all of the lucky kids who are getting to know Linux at a young age and take that knowledge and (hopefully) preference into adulthood.
I work for an educational software company... and I've never heard of anyone asking for linux versions of any of our products. If you want companies to make linux versions, you need to get on the ball and ask for them... hint hint...
Computers are not needed for small kids.
It is better for them to learn some math,
or more important their language.
no that's michael. simoniker is tubgirl.
I have been banging my head up against a wall for about 2 years now trying to get our University to at least make some sort of switchover to Linux servers/desktops. I mean, you don't need Windows to just check email and run telnet apps. Needless to say, they signed a multi-year, multi-million dollar contract extension to Microsloth.
This is a test. This is a test of the emergency sig system. This has been only a test.
With K12 linux, I found this especially impressive:
"On the server side, two Compaq servers--a 933MHz dual-processor ML370 and a 1GHz dual-processor ML350--run Red Hat Linux and support about 220 concurrent users. "
220 users! Thats 220 times the price difference between a thin and a 'fat' client, minus the servers.
---
"The chances of a demonic possession spreading are remote -- relax."
I am very sceptical of anonymous cowards posting that something will be modded down although it shouldn't be. I'm guessing that as often as not, it is the original poster trying a bit of reverse psychology.
I donate my time to set up a terminal server environment and other linux goodies for school. Next week I am going to work on converting a under funded christian school and the week after content filtering solution for a public school. Linux is making alot of headway in these projects and I really enjoy showing them what can be done with a simple download.
Got Code?
I thought it was humour...
I love stacking my barbecues in the shed at the end of summer - you can't beat a bit of grill on grill action.
OSS and Linux aren't paying the big marketroid salaries. Probably just as well, I don't expect it to be successful because its now "NEW" or "IMPROVED" or some such.
In an unheard of move from Microsoft, Bill Gates found a new way to subside schools in our Country.
:
Profiting from the offer for free harware with Windows 2000/Office 2000 licences, thousands of schools answered the call for free money.
But why, would you ask, take the whole deal ?
Effectivly, soon after the announcement, we all had a big surprise. Here the comment of Jack Doe (Brother of the famous you know who)
-"Well, yes, I know, finding our MS Licences on Ebay must have been a real surprise to you, but we thought that, maybe, we could sell them and keep the hardware. The money we get from the Licences will help us buy Support Service at Red Drake (the Famous Distro Maker). All together, we get a better IT with support, for free (to us)."
In other news tonight, M. Bill Gates III died of a massive heart attack after seeing this news !
It takes 40+ muscles to frown, but only four to extend your arm and bitchslap the motherfucker
okay, I don't have a story to reference but just trust me. There was a school that M$ donated around $100,000 worth of computers. However, there was no software on them(the standard software was included of course). The school system had to spend thousands and thousands of dollars loading software on the computers to use them. Gates got the money from the software purchases and got a tax write off for donating the computers. Some "charity" work, huh?
Flexibility is primarily usefull to large businesses. It shows you can handle different situations.
Small businesses (read 1-10 people) tend to be a bit more practical. They're specifically interested in whether you can do the particular job they need you to do.
What's this Submit thingy do?
Does anyone else think these guys now have a big bulls-eye painted on them? I'm no historian, but from what I remember of revolts that weren't crushed (heads on sticks, bodies swinging from gallows, babies thrown onto bonfires etc.) is that there needs to be a critical mass before being able to withstand the (lethal) reactions of any oppressive tyrant. One single village aflame with the spirit of revolution pretty quickly becomes aflame in a physical sense when the imperial troops arrive.
Some new MS "education initiative" for those special school districts? Something else? How hard is it to replace the education board with different membership with different
Then again, maybe I'm just operating under FUD/paranoia...
Just a quick and shameless plug, MainBrain allows schools to set up an amazing website which lets parents check grades, attendance, discipline, and all sorts of other information. It runs on Linux, using Perl and MySQL.
Check this school administration software and let me know what you think.
I can see the problem...
They learn some math.
Then the Langage.
Then the parents come to you and asks why their child only speaks in perl 8)
It takes 40+ muscles to frown, but only four to extend your arm and bitchslap the motherfucker
Proof? Oh wait, you was hoping we wouldn't ask.
People will natually want to use the computer system they grew up with. My mom first used to learn about computers with a System 5 Macintosh, and she still swears by them even though she's been using a PC for the past 10 years. She still wishes it were a mac, she just knows they're far too expensive. Today's generation of people using computers really have only known MS products. There's comfort there, and better the devil you know than the one you don't.
I've always said that Linux on the desktop is not harder, it's only different. It's just different, so they complain. Linux is different so it's too hard. Mac is different so it's too dumbed down. It's just lame excuses from people unwilling to change. If kids grow up learning Linux they'll stick with it their entire lives. Just as youngsters in the 80's loved UNIX and when they grew up and got IT jobs they brought it into business. Truth is, people are sheep. They'll follow and do pretty much whatever they're told. The best progress into the world of home and business can be made in schools. If children grow up riding on a penguin they'll stick with it.
"Computers are not needed for small kids.
It is better for them to learn some math,
or more important their language."
You started learning your language the minute you said "Mama", and computers can help with Math.
We installed linux at a few schools anyway, on their network cores, only to come back later and see that the admins had come around and installed win2k right behind us.
You installed software (on "network cores", no less) behind the systems administrators' backs, and you were expecting something different to happen?
It makes perfect sense to have MS applications as appropriate for specific learning tasks - for example, as someone who's paid the rent many times in the past with temporary clerical work, it would be remiss in my mind to have a word processing/keyboarding class that did not teach MS Word. But multi-platform, multi-program proficiency can only be of benefit to a student.
It Is the Nature of Information to Transgress Artificial Boundaries
You mean like this
in what capacity did you install linux on machines ? were the admins informed before hand? did they agree?
All I Want For Christmas Is My Constitutional Rights
But from Monty Python's "How not to be seen" ;)
/ fc -24/how-not-to-be-seen.html
http://www.stone-dead.asn.au/tv-series/sketches
One of my daughters had a computer class in grades 1 through 6, in a decent funded public school. They had Apple IIs and Macs. They would only allow the Macs to emulate the Apple IIs to be fair to the students. I seriously doubt any student graduated and went on to recommend Apple IIs.
The sad part is that no one cares about the level of tech in the public schools. This would be good news if it meant anything.
cabg x3 is a life changing event...
Computers are not needed for small kids. It is better for them to learn some math, or more important their language.
This is insightful?
Please.
Computers are a fact of life. Kids should be exposed to them early.
The comments about math and language are a nonsense argument. Kids shouldn't be taught one skill, or two skills. They should be taught a variety of skills. Computer use, and more importantly, understanding basic computer concepts are very important skills.
Life is too short to proofread.
I think computers are needed for small kids. Personally I started using computers at school before the third grade - although I remember being pissed at the time that they were teaching us typing, I seemed to think that meant they thought the best job we could all get was as secretaries, but it does mean that I ended up doing dictation for my older sister in high school since she never learned to type worth a damn.
We had a computer in our house ever since she was in middle school, but she went through the same school system before the early introduction of computers in elementary school. Nowadays I still get messages from her asking how to do something. Then when I tell her something like start >> settings >> control panel, she retypes that message as if that's a magic command she'd never heard of. I have to explicitly say to click on the buttons. That's what I call an example of why they introduce them early. They can play all sorts of math and language games, but they're also learning how computers work early.
I read your post, and though this will surprise you, I agree with your position and sympathize with you. I'm one of those evil right wing Americans that you hear so much about that likes the fact that we're the dominant power in the world right now.
So you might be shocked to learn that I completely agree with you. Open source software can help you. And if I were in your position, I wouldn't want to become beholden to one company's product no matter WHERE it comes from. An open, standards based information infrastructure is vital for that. China isn't developing Red Flag Linux to spur their software industry so much as to maintain their competitiveness with the US.
In fact, you're going to love this. I'm rooting for you here. And for everyone else across the world adopting OSS instead of MS products for their nation's needs. Why?
It isn't that I hate Microsoft. Far from it. On many levels, I truly admire Gates and his company. I'd like to see them stay successful.
What I don't want to see them do is dominate EVERYTHING. I want to see Apple succeed. And SGI. And Red Hat. And SuSe, etc, etc. I want OSS to be widely adopted across the world so that open standards rule the day. I have no problem with incredible numbers of people using MS stuff. This is heresy here to say this, but MS, unlike the past, makes a lot of good software now. I just want that software to use those same open standards that others use. I want other software to be able to interact and operate with MS software. Massive OSS use across the world can ensure that. When I go to a bank website, I want Mozilla to work too, not just IE.
So thornist, I say good luck to your country in it's quest for building a strong, open infrastructure. It's good for you, and frankly, it's good for us too.
Life is hard, and the world is cruel
That's were you use things like Win4Lin, or Wine. A lot of childrens software is written using Macromedia (look carefully on the box).
While they may not have been on the front page, K12 has been discussed on here, distrowatch, OSnews, and several educational slanted open source sites ( that I fail to remember the name of at the moment )...
It wasnt a secret by a long shot.
---- Booth was a patriot ----
The entire article has precisely zero examples of Linux being used as a desktop solution. File servers, web servers, thin terminals, blah blah blah. And then the hack busts out with a claim that MS would be fighting for 5% of the desktop market if only this great secret was let out. Mind your step. It's another Linux circle jerk.
I recently installed a server and three workstations for a friend and his family using the K12 ISOs. The adults and kids share a printer, scanner, and dialup internet connection.
A closed solution would've cost them an extra $1K for software, and would've resulted in many "Can you come over and fix *insert problem* today?" calls.
I'm sold, and so are they.
After the Big screwing Microsoft tried to hand NW schools I'm not supprised there is a bigger push for open source software in NW school districts.
You have a limited shoe string budget to keep the school running.. To the left we have MS asking for a cool half mill a year to license ALL your PC's regardless of OS they really run. On the right we have OSS software.. You make the call.
If you think it's expensive to hire a professional to do the job, wait until you hire an amateur. --Red Adair
Microsoft Abuse Resistance Education
Learning computers very young is like learning English very young; you gain a high level of intuitive competence (the best kind!) in an extremely valuable ability.
----------
Together, we will drive the rats from the tundra.
It all comes down to what the kids and teachers are using the computers for. I'm a teacher at a small charter school. We house about 250-300 students between the middle and high school grades. We have a lab for the middle school and a lab for the high school. Each teacher has a computer in the room. All of the computers in the building are WinXP, including the servers. The majority of the time kids are in the lab they are using either MS Office or the Internet. We have some educational software, but not a lot. That is a lot of tech money wasted in my eyes.
I set up a K12LTSP server in my classroom with a total of 8 terminals. Although the kids spend some time crying about it. (This is an old computer, this isn't MS blah, etc), once they say that it did the same things -- No more crying. If fact many kids have come to use my computer instead using the ones in the lab.
It really just comes down to what you use it for. If the teacher's/students are not using a lot of the special software, why pay all the extra cash. Why not set up 1 lab with Windows/Mac for the software and one with K12LTSP for Internet, Office apps, etc. You just saved yourself 50% of your budget.
P.S. - Linux does have some great ed games and apps (see the Seul/Edu Application Index. They are just a little harder to find then"Mathblaser"
-- these are only opinions and they might not be mine.
By familiarizing students with niche apps running on a niche operating system, preparing them for a niche job.
Personally, I'd rather see more expensive Windows boxes in there with Microsoft Office installed.
Schools shouldn't be the victims of OS holy wars, they're preparation for real life and real jobs. The real world uses MS Office and its capabilities. The right way requires the right tools.
Hell, let's put em on refurbished VIC-20's, we'll save even more money!
Proof? Oh wait, you was hoping we wouldn't ask.
Here. Oh, wait, you was [sic] hoping I wouldn't answer.
or more important their language.
Do you know that you're saying? They'll *never* post on slashdot. Or, worse, become grammar-facists.
h.
this sig for sale or rent
Patriotism is a virtue of the vicious
Oh, man, this operating system... it's PURE SNOW!
I froze the left half of my brain! Look! I can't move my right arm!
Visit me on the web at Permanent4.com.
It is a religion. Of course it can edit text too. And naturally it can do semi-WYSIWYG document processing as well - that seems to be what "word processing" means.
Finally! A year of moderation! Ready for 2019?
"And then the hack busts out with a claim that MS would be fighting for 5% of the desktop market if only this great secret was let out. "
Well most people apply the "Spinach test" when it comes to Linux. *looks at Linux* Ew! Gross, I'm not going to try it. But we all know your vegtables are good for you.
That sounds like a GREAT idea! I think that all sensitive information should be stored in MySQL! I also don't lock the doors of my house and put up a "Please do not steal anything" sign on the front door.
"People will natually want to use the computer system they grew up with. "
Well gosh darn it! Were's my Commodore 64? Damn PC industry I want my C64.
Something being overlooked is the fact that school districts, especially in Oregon at the moment, are running a little low on funds. There's no choice: they'll take what's available for free and like it.
With business, or the home user, there's more a choice. It's more of an economics cost/benefit equation, instead of "well, we've got next to nothing in the budget so let's see what we can get."
"Which of the following candidates would you choose for web admin:
1) The stodgy Microsoft guy who insists on using IIS because that's all he knows; or
2) The wild-haired Linux guy who launches into a tirade when you mention not using Apache; or
3) The guy who has solid experience with both, knows their relative strengths and weaknesses, can provide an expert opinion on which is better suited to your needs, and is comfortable developing for the platform that you choose?"
Damn! You just had to stack the deck, didn't you?
Some employers would love it if they could get people who only know MSWord97. For data entry, they want to keep you with just enough knowledge to do your job. Not enough to find another job and ask for a raise.
...and computers can help with Math.
I strongly dissagree. Not for a beginner.
I was allowed to use a pretty nifty calculator, for the time(it had graphs and all), in school.
One of the first things I realised when I started my university education was that using the calculator was the worst thing I could have done to my math skills.
I was crippled without it, and learning to think again without the support of a machine made my first semester a lot harder than it had to be.
Learn to understand math first, then use a computer!
I cannot stress this enough.
If you do it the other way around you only cripple your skills. You are nothing without the computer, and even with it you are nowhere near as good as someone who know math and only use the computer to enhance his skills.
"First lesson," Jon said. "Stick them with the pointy end."
I've personally been witness to one Oregon school district that has switched over to K12LTSP. Over last summer, we built a hundred of those thin-client computers. Let me be the first to tell you, walking into that computer lab today and seeing all of those kids on those computers with Linux and enjoying it would put to rest any concern over the need for Microsoft. Who needs PowerPoint? They've got the OpenOffice equivalent. Why pay thousands for a site license for Adobe Photoshop when The Gimp is free? The whole thing is basically free, of course, which means saved cash in an already strapped sector of the government. In this district alone, over $20,000 is saved annually. That's $20,000 that could be used to keep class sizes small, hire a new teacher, or update textbooks. In this economy, particularly one where schools are complaining everyday about lack of funding, every dollar saved is worth it. I see these other school districts with their pricy Dells and shiny iMacs and wonder just how much cash they blew through that they didn't need to. I don't insinuate that they didn't receive a steep discount, but I would be surprised if their technology spending for their labs was lower than this district. A thousand here, a thousand there - all of those little expenses lead to our state's current financial crisis. Based on the success of Linux in Oregon schools, open-source proponents had moved to pass a bill by the Oregon legislature that would mandate the state consider open-source solutions prior to spending the big bucks for Microsoft. Alas, despite widespread support, the representative from Wood Village shot down the bill and refused to let it be heard, citing verbatim the same reasons the huge tech firms - adamant in their lobby to stop the bill - had argued. The bill eventually died. Proponents mourned. Personally, I didn't see it as an open-source "power grab." I saw it as a way to hold the government accountable for its technology spending. The government should choose the most economical means of getting the job done and not waste taxpayer dollars on extravagant operating systems when all they need is simple word processing or whatnot. If that economical approach is open-source, so be it. If Microsoft decides to just hand over their wares for free, so be it. But always keep them on edge. It's clear this sort of thing scares Microsoft and a bit of fear is always a good thing if it means getting cheaper rates. The fact that the bill died showed Oregon's government is not ready to be held accountable for its decisions when it comes to technology spending. Consequently, I hear the same legislature is trying to up our taxes again in November. Go figure.
"You sir are the idiot. And it's Linux's problem if users don't like the fonts.
After all, what are computers for?
Dur... they're for users!
Ask Steve Jobs...
"
And yet Apple's share of the market is still small. Looks like you all are going to have to find another reason for why Linux ain't there. Because the one your using isn't holding up.
The impact has little to do with, "well.. they will know how to use Linux software." That's just an added benefit.
Now, at the risk of "Who let trolls out".. I feel the value comes from children being exposed to the ideas of Richard Stallman and the GPL. Teaching a kid the notion that they can google around inside software code or information is a great thing. Also, it's a nice to see that you can program on a platform "free of charge" (ie don't need to buy hundreds of dollars in software to get started).. These types of things will mean more to kids in impoverished areas, instead of in the hi$ Suburban areas.
I personally can't wait to hear about all these thuggy punks writing mizzleschizzle internot wormz instead of VBS script outlook attachments. The idea that dispossed poor kids can instantly gain power simply by learning to code on the cheap is hot.
Anyhoo, Linux (or, dream a little dream, FreeBSD) in schools is much different than Apple in schools. First, Apple cost money (at risk of grammar assassination). Software and Hardware! Second, Apple hardware is pathetically eclipsed by x86 hardware. THIEARD, Linux is Free as in Speaotch and can be Free as in Beer, too. Some inner city kid can tool on Apple at school all day.. but can't afford to buy computer for home. That same kid can tool on Linux, find a computer in a dumpster and stick Linux on it at home. If the computer is some wierd architechture, he/she/it can put NetBSD on it.. then port linux to the hardware.
p
I had once helped a couple friends install Linux systems at a small extension high school, one of them was a teacher railroaded into the part-time IT Coordinator position. Even though we had successfully deployed a stable, secure, low-maintenance, low-cost Linux environment, his peers were committed to causing his eventual resignation.
Windows was the only "real" answer for his peers, even while staring into the eye of a year of success with Linux. A year of success. Sometimes you simply cannot win against the engrained "religious" beliefs of some computer users, especially those people who influence financial and policy decisions in your work place.
assert(expired(knowledge));
Maybe I'm dumb, but I've never been able to figure out how to use word for anything more complicated than what wordpad can do. Graphics hop around. Editing a subscript is liable to make everything after the subscript subscript as well. Autocorrect never fails to fuck me over. LaTeX is so much easier. It does what you tell it.
Give me Classic Slashdot or give me death!
I am a unix admin for the largest k12 school district in Colorado and am meeting stiff resistance to the use of Open Source here. Most of the critics here are astonished to learn that the majority of the internet's web sites run on an "Open Source" product called apache. The district as a whole seems to shun anything not from MicroSoft or Novell. However a colleague and I are starting a Pilot Project using Linux and Open Source at the charter schools within the district. Most of them are very progressive minded and interested in exploring alternatives to the norm. We are installing a terminal server from the K12 linux terminal server project, squid proxy servers, Star Office and Open Office. Open Source is not a panacea but meets some of the needs of cash strapped schools and districts. This district like many others is currently facing budget problems that will eventually force it to rethink its position on open source. Fiscal responsibility is required of those who are stewards of public funds. When many governments and school districts start to show significant savings by the use of open source it will be very difficult to justify using expensive software. I for one plan on being ready to help school districts and governments make the migration to open source.
Telecommuting! What about socialization?
I dunno.. seemed like when I went through school (K-12) it was pretty much all Apple computers .. Apple IIe, IIgs, Mac classic, Power macs, etc..
Did using that platform cause me (or my peers) great pains when using Windows? nah..
Why not?
Simple -- the concepts are the same. Both platforms (as well as Linux) have word processors, spreadsheets, games, databases, etc. Nowadays, both can access web content, email, multimedia titles, etc.
So whats my point? Schools are for EDUCATION. K-12 schools should NOT be thought of as a place to train youngsters for the job market. By not providing a microsoft centric platform, it will force the student to separate concepts of computing from the implimentation/interface of computing.
Unfortunately, like many have noted (and I have experienced) so much computer 'training' is simply telling people to click this icon, type in this text and presto, it works. Essentially, training consist of learning the interface, but not really learning the concepts. As a result, when the interface changes, instead of seeing similar concepts between different platforms, these individuals are completely dumbfounded and need to be 'reprogrammed'.
Sure, when a student gets to college or a trade school, they should learn the applications that will ultimately get them a job. However, by understanding that there is more than just one way to accomplish a task will undoubtedly provide more flexibility in their thinking patterns and increase their overall producitivity to the organization (easier to train on a new platform, able to think of concepts instead of "cookbook step by step instructions", etc..)
The Portland schools have a site license for Win98, and they can now put Win98 any any new machines that they acquire at $0 additional cost. They use Win98 to teach kids office and desktop applications, but they have no plans to upgrade to anything newer from MS. The servers run linux. The non-technical classroom teachers like MS, but the tech teachers are behind linux and they hope that Open Office is good enough to replace MS apps by the time that they feel that Win98 is obsolete.
That's one of the reasons you may think we're being very quiet--we're not talking directly to you! But if you're interested in what's actually going on with open resources in education, go to any of the websites above, or to Schoolforge and look around and follow the links.
Another reason is that whenever we've submitted links about such things to /. (I asked Paul about this a minute ago, and his experience has been the same as mine) they have been rejected. If you're not interested in telling people about what's being done, don't expect them to know about it! We've stopped submitting our stories here, since they're never used. We try to use our energy more constructively now, but submitting our stories to educational journals, etc.
I was the CEO of a NW Oregon company called 'Tech Cadre' for less than a year. Tech Cadre has some interesting properties that a lot of companies don't possess. For one thing, no employee can possibly last more than four years, and none have yet lasted more than three. The company does its firing, then waits several months before hiring anyone new - although at times it loses half its workforce in one of these three-month changeovers.
Tech Cadre is an in-school business, and all of the employees are students. They do webdesign, and some very good web design, along with other support for clients. I'm no longer an employee nor an employer, but I still recognize them as what they are: the best of their kind. The business is completely run and funded by students and the work they do, is completely volunteer-based, and is currently in the process of moving partially from Windows to Linux. The Tech Cadre also supports Milwaukie High School in its computing efforts, and has plans to put Linux in the classroom as well - in some places, these plans are already in effect.
You see, we the students already know what K12 needs. It doesn't need Linux or Windows, it needs both. Even in the Tech Cadre, a group of nerds who hates Macintoshes, we run a few Macs in order to keep part of our customer base satisfied. We run Windows for the same reason and for real world experience, and Linux to keep our servers running. A monopoly on either side of the wire is pointless - a company should never buy into just one OS, despite the technical knowledge needed to run two or three. Each operating system has its place and a tremendous value, and the Tech Cadre recognizes that. Can you professionals recognize the same thing that a group of amateurs does?
Tech Cadre
In this context, may be it is the introduction of tools to youngsters is more important than the underlying OS. For instance, compare xemacs with wordpad or textpad or the latest $29 shareware text editor with obnoxious alerts about registering. May be show how it is better to write a "structured document" versus highlight and the standard way of selecting a font size and strength of some text in a document. May be show how tabbed browsing in mozilla or opera is good... Most of the die hard fans of systems such as emacs/mozilla/perl/latex are fans because these tools do things "better" in some way... If kids are shown that "there is more than one way to do it", they may really be ready to experiment with new software.
S
Tell them about what happened in a Portland high school recently: Teachers' email was down because someone recompiled PHP. Isn't that great? You learn by your mistakes. What better place to make mistakes than in a school? Who would have had the chance to do that if everything was COTS from some drooling BMW drivers up in Washington who wear gold chains and smell like perfume? Hoooray for public education, the salvation and emancipation of the common man.
> Even if you know Writer, Abiword, Islandwrite, Emacs, StarOffice, and MS Word, using mail-merge in WordPerfect will still be harder for you (the first few times) than for someone who's only used WordPerfect.
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That really depends on the application. Many office applications (and, ahem, OS interfaces) are made to be usable by anyone. For those types of applications, someone using Word and only Word for documents for 4 years usually only knows a subset of the features that he or she uses for daily work. What happens when that person suddenly needs to use a different subset of features? What happens when a person familiar with vi, OpenOffice.org and some LaTeX suddenly needs to use a different subset of features in his or her Word-centric cubicle? The person that has used more applications will learn the new features faster. The ability to branch out into learning more features and looking for features present in other apps (e.g. write now, format later from TeX) increases productivity. Sure, learning the app will put someone that has been using the app for years an advantage. But, after the learning, the user with a broader set of knowledge will quickly start to become more effecient than the person stuck with an app for years. Familiarity with productive methods becomes more important.
I do draw two lines. The backend packages (e.g. IIS, SQL, Exchange, sendmail) are better run by good specialists than someone only knowing one or two different systems. The second line is that someone using only KWord will likely turn out to be in the same position as someone who only uses Word.
\end{rant}
There is a tech high school in Portland where kids build real houses, that sell well into six figures for real people to live in; they also build fancy electronics, learn machine shop skills, auto-mechanics, medical professions, and Word, Excel, Pagemaker, Powerpoint, Photoshop. Some kids from that school go to Harvard or Caltech; others walk out of there and into first-class blue-collar jobs that pay more than Harvard and Caltech guys can find around here now.
Damn near the only relevant post here and it wallows in oblivion.
What the /. community doesn't know is the politics and current situation going on in Oregon. Oregon, silicon forest, has the worst unemployment rate of the country. Second, and due to that, being we only have income and property tax (no sales!), the legislature is facing huge budget crunches. Criminals are being let out, school years are the shortest in the country and a whole host of other services are being axed. Government and schools need to save $$ wherever possible and I think linux could lead the way... check out my article at http://news.designtechnica.com/talkback21.html
If I were a sysadmin in Oregon, I'd be too scared to use copyrighted software, since the Oregon Legislative Assembly recently redefined "terrorism" to include just about every crime you can think of.
For example, the hideous crimes of "unlawful labeling of a sound recording", "cheating", "possession of a gray machine", or "computer crime", will now get you between a minimum of 25 years and life in a "forest or work camp".
And the state only has to come up with two "witnesses".
NineNine's post is a troll and flamebait (like a good number of the things he posts). Besides, database data storage security doesn't necessarily depend on the database you use but how you store it - e.g. storing passwords in a MySQL database. Unless you're a complete fuckhead who doesn't even bother to lock the doors of their house you won't store them in plaintext in the DB. But if you do, you'll get burned by your own MySQL incompetence. Then you will post on Slashdot and bitch about how insecure MySQL is because of your own stupidity.
Good day, kind sir.
Note to M1-ers: a curt but otherwise insightful message is not "Flamebait" or "Troll".
You are kidding yourselves if you thinmk it will alter the desktop market space at all. Look who has had a HUGE representation on K to 12 for years: Apple. And where do they sit in the real world numbers game? 3% of the worldwide market. Get used to this one fact: people have at home what they have at work. If they work in an MS shop, chances are they use MS at home.
Eric is the guy I know as the person who runs K12 Linux. He took most of June off. So he is back to work today after most of a month off and he gets slashdoted.
Welcome back Eric.
yeah, the fact that their releases came after the games were through being relevant had 0 to do with that, I'm sure.
Next time, they should try porting concurrently with development. If a port isn't out 1 month after the native version it's kinda hard to care.
I've used staroffice on the linux desktop. The fonts were rendered rather badly. It made the document difficult to read. I can perfectly understand why people were screaming about having to use StarOffice.
If a KDE or GNOME program running on linux has a dialog where there are radio buttons laid out in a confusing or ambiguous way using system-oriented jargon, and a counterpart Windows/MacOS program does not have this bad design, is the reason why people are afraid of using the linux *really* because "they are used to Windows/MacOS"?
Perhaps the problem is not that the target market for linux on the desktop is "used to windows" but that the current linux developer and user community are used to bad, inconsistent, and generally confusing design and are all to eager to yell "quit whining about what you get for free." And when no one wants to use their stuff, they try to pin the blame on Windows' desktop dominance.
I don't think the problem will get better until the traditionalist unix culture that has been so incredulous and apathetic about usability issues has been removed from all efforts to put linux on the desktop.
The problem isn't that some people don't want to learn; the problem is that some people haven't been taught a lesson.
Ergonomica Auctorita Illico!
I call browsing /. research :)
Warning: Opinions known to be heavily biased.
...you'd realize that "Can You Explain the Oregon Legislature?" is an all too valid question. *sigh*
Never let a lack of data get in the way of a good rant.
" I was personally involved in pushing for linux use in school networks, and met with huge amounts of resistance - especailly immediately after that point at which MS threatened to audit Portland public schools with their gestapo license enforcement crap"
O please, I am a student at a Keizer,Oregon school(right next to Salem), and we regularly get audited by Microsoft, it happens every couple years, we are all legit, and nothing happens... I sure Portland is audited just like us, why would they be worrying now?
"We installed linux at a few schools anyway, on their network cores, only to come back later and see that the admins had come around and installed win2k right behind us." Install systemImager on a server and have it reimage the linux machines through cron every night.
Telecommuting! What about socialization?
The myth is that Ostriches bury their own head in the sand so as to avoid a problem. In this context an Ostrich would still be using Windows. You're talking about the much more generic "best kept secret" cliche, which I don't think has an animal example, except perhaps the Tawny Frogmouth which is a real bastard to spot when it's sitting perfectly still on an old log.
I think most of the posts have missed one of the key advantages of K12Linux.
My home, like many others around the globe, has a few aging PCs around. I've got 3 PCs that have 300-533MHz CPUs, which would be pretty well at their end of life as Windows boxes. What's more, I can get my hands on several other old PCs from my MS-loving mates as they upgrade their hardware every year or so and have no more use for their old boxes.
As Linux boxes, these old clunkers are perfect. I can install Linux plus everything my kids need for free on a box that would be otherwise useless. I can lock down the software on the box so that they can't break it. There's no need for me to keep updating virus checkers, or perform 99% of the other regular care-and-feeding that Windows boxes require. I can limit Internet access from the box as I see fit using a combination of firewall rules and local host entries. I can eliminate popups from Mozilla, which knocks out a huge quantity of porn sites. Finally, if they manage to break the hardware, then it doesn't cost me very much at all to replace it.
If a school adopted K12Linux as a standard, *and* had a few knowledgeable parents willing to help install a virtually identical desktop on old clunker PCs for kids to use at home, that's just about an unbeatable combination. MS might be able to offer software subsidies for schools, but the hardware to run current versions of MS products still costs a packet and needs to be upgraded every 2-3 years. MS can't offer useful PCs for free to parents to give their kids to use at home.
When I ask if a candidate has experience with Word 97, it's because we have 300-page training manuals paginated under the abhorrent Binder and need somebody who knows Word. They might be able to make Abiword sit up and beg, but that is useless to me. I need someone who can quote Windows Annoyances to me verbatim. I often ask candidates if they own a copy.
As kludgy as MS Office is, it is the lingua franca of the American business society, for now, for good or ill. It is also a persnickety beast, with many well-known warts, and familiarity with office products in general does not necessarily translate to familiarity with Office.
Everyone will start to cheer when you put on your sailin' shoes.
Back when I was in high school, they were all proud of their up to date computer lab where students learned WordPerfect 5.1 (which just came out IIRC) for dos, the same system industry is using Here were are 10 years latter and wordPerfect is all but dead in industry, and Word is number one. However my last job required I know and use FrameMaker for all my official documents. (Word was avaiable, and used for some documents, but the official ones I created had to be done in Frame)
The point is that I don't know what will be number one in 10 years. Perhaps kWord will completely take over MSWord by then. It shows promise already, and free is a good arguement. (OpenOffice, StarOffice, AbiWord all come to mind as potential compititors, and WordPerfect might yet figgure out how to regain number one) Better to learn concepts and then latter figgure out how to apply them. In fact I would argue that is is better to learn on something that supports what you need, but Will not be number one. By learning on the number one platform you tend to become blindly locked into it.
Many HR people today are drones, and most are spectacularly non-technical.
Their standard response is likely to be: [blank stare][awkward pause]OK, so, that would be a "No".
My other car is a 1984 Nark Avenger.
This is in strong contrast to the dbms-which-ought-not-be-named which provided hours of entertainment and overtime with its special features, the latest being the special slammer/sapphire feature.
Beta is broken and the link to classic doesn't work. Stop wasting our time or there won't be anybody left here.
The BEST thing about having Linux and other OSS appearing in school classrooms is that it eliminates one avenue for corporations to "economically indoctrinate" our children even before they've had a chance to develop/learn good critical thinking. It's bad enough that Apple, IBM, Intel and other hardware manufacturers will continue to wage this propaganda battle for years to come, but at least there's hope on the software front!
With me living in the pasific northwest... I think it's a great idea. Oregon schools are in a serious financial bind, saving all that money will do EVERYONE good in that state... as long as the money STAYS in the schools.
Hi.
I saw your journal and wanted to respond on 2 archived articles.
First, TheBrain - it really looks slick and lovely, and it even restored my faith in Java as a usable programming platform. BUT it's not useful enough. It's nice that you can link between things, but it's still limited. You only have 2 types of links: ParentLink and JumpLink. When you try organizing your thoughts in that thing, you'll notice that shortcoming. In order for that thing to be useful, it needs to allow the user to create link types of his own. Like.. a link of love, a link of hate, a link of job.. and stuff like that.
And that NekkidNerds thingie - do you work for it? It kinda sucks.
Slashdot community, please notice: I am looking for a girlfriend.
Nave H. Weiss
Here is good developement tools and learning interface for the unfortunate Windows users in Oregon who cannot afford to use MS software or the time to learn Linux dev tools first. www.arachnoid.com/arachnophilia/
OH THE SHAME I fell off the wagon and use sigs again!
Why didn't you answer my previous reply to your comment? I HATE WHEN PEOPLE IGNORE ME!!!!
Slashdot community, please notice: I am looking for a girlfriend.
Nave H. Weiss