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IBM Clinches Security Certification for Linux

Nimey writes "IBM has gotten Linux certified under the Common Criteria specification. " What this means is that government can consider Linux when making purchasing decisions. Linux got the highest rating possible.

373 comments

  1. Alright...? by mschoolbus · · Score: 1, Interesting

    What this means is that government can consider Linux when making purchasing decisions. Linux got the highest rating possible.

    So what the hell was going on before?

    1. Re:Alright...? by azzy · · Score: 5, Informative

      I think what this means is that they can pick Linux and have a piece of paper supporting their choice. Got to cover their own backs I guess.

    2. Re:Alright...? by Cutriss · · Score: 1, Insightful

      I think Taco screwed up the newspost. It should read "What this means is that government can consider IBM's Linux solutions when making purchasing decisions. IBM got the highest rating possible."

      --
      "Mod, mod, mod...and another troll bites the dust."
    3. Re:Alright...? by ComputerSlicer23 · · Score: 2, Informative
      No, it was actually Suse's Linux distribution (at least according the article I read). I know some of the security ratings are a software and hardware combination. That is, it's certified secure on hardware X, and software Y. I know that's what C2 security ratings are all about. However, I'm not sure if the common criteria includes the hardware or not.

      Kirby

    4. Re:Alright...? by akadruid · · Score: 2, Informative

      Yeah it's like the whole 'No-one ever got fired for choosing Oracle' thing.
      In this case 'No-one ever got fired for choosing Common Criteria software'.
      The important thing to remember here is that a lot of central government positions and even more local government positions are taken by people who could not support their employment in the private sector.
      Another interesting point in this article is that statement that the Linux market is expected to grow from $2 billion to more than $5 billion in 2006. That's a very important increase in a short period of time. Definitly something for Microsoft to be worried about.

      --
      "Those who cast the votes decide nothing; those who count the votes decide everything." (attrib. Joseph Stalin)
    5. Re:Alright...? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Funny
      So what the hell was going on before?

      The government would have to buy a trusted operating system that meets the common criteria.. for example, Microsoft Windows 2000. Yes, it is certified too. Let's not start sucking each others dicks on this just yet.

    6. Re:Alright...? by eyegor · · Score: 4, Informative
      According to the articles, Win2k got an EAL4 (click here) and Linux got an EAL2+ (suse press release)

      It's still good to see Linux get this certification though. It's another step towards displacing Windows.

      --

      Don't anthropomorphize computers, they don't like it.
    7. Re:Alright...? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Wrong? Perhaps...but it was only speculating anyway.

      OFFTOPIC?

      Fuck you, moderators.

    8. Re:Alright...? by xanadu-xtroot.com · · Score: 2, Funny

      secure on hardware X, and software Y

      Isn't X software though?

      (cue rim-shot)

      --
      I'm not a prophet or a stone-age man,
      I'm just a mortal with potential of a super man.
    9. Re:Alright...? by AndroidCat · · Score: 1

      Ironic, that saying used to be "No-one ever got fired for choosing IBM".

      --
      One line blog. I hear that they're called Twitters now.
    10. Re:Alright...? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      offtopic, but thank you for supplying link that actually link to the correct place

    11. Re:Alright...? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Interesting

      This isn't strictly correct.

      Windows 2000 has a "CAPP/EAL4" certification, not "EAL4". The CAPP part means that the OS provides "a level of protection which is appropriate for an assumed non-hostile and well-managed user community requiring protection against threats of inadvertent or casual attempts to breach the system security". That means the certification becomes meaningless the moment you connect a W2K box to the Internet. It is not certified at all while connected to the net.

      By contrast, Linux is non-CAPP "EAL2+" certified, even when connected to the Internet.

    12. Re:Alright...? by hwyguy2 · · Score: 1
      That is, it's certified secure on hardware X, and software Y. I know that's what C2 security ratings are all about. However, I'm not sure if the common criteria includes the hardware or not.

      This is a big difference between the CC and the TCSEC, and why you need to read the Security Target.

      In the Common Criteria, certain requirements can be levied on the IT environment. Thus, it is possible to evaluate a software only product. But this must be made clear in the Security Target.

      Daniel

    13. Re:Alright...? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yes, but Linux certainly did not receive the "highest level of security evaluation," as the Reuters article stated. Oh, and if you want to know what the certification actually means, then you can read the Common Criteria.

    14. Re:Alright...? by ComputerSlicer23 · · Score: 1
      I'm not a security expert, I'm just pointing out that it wasn't IBM software, the statement was related to the software released by Suse, and could possibly be linked to the hardware by IBM. I believe IBM footed the bill for the whol thing. I've got friends who would know the difference between all of this, and they might even understand acronyms you used. I just pickup on what they say periodically, and why I thought it might be related to IBM hardware.

      Kirby

    15. Re:Alright...? by goatan · · Score: 0
      "No-one ever got fired for choosing IBM".

      However there was more than our fair share of beattings and suicides but that has statistical clustering written all over it-Dilbert

      sorry couldn't resist

      --
      Saying Apple is better than MS is like saying Botulism is better than rabies.

  2. Thank you IBM by azzy · · Score: 1, Insightful

    Glad to see they aren't letting SCO scare them away from giving Linux their support time after time

    1. Re:Thank you IBM by DarkSarin · · Score: 4, Interesting
      Glad to see they aren't letting SCO scare them away from giving Linux their support time after time

      Did you seriously think that they would? If so you need to share some of the dope you've been smoking. As has been said numerous times on this board: to IBM, SCO is nothing more than an annoying mosquito. They might be carrying West Nile, but they are still just a mosquito, and can be crushed or captured almost any time.

      The cool part about this whole article is that with the security cert, the government could begin switching some of their offices over. It also means that organizations like hospitals (who need to be concerned with privacy due to HIPAA) can be sold on the fact that it is secure and they don't have to worry as much about some hacker stealing confidential information.

      Think about it.
      --
      "We don't know what we are doing, but we are doing it very carefully,..." Wherry, R.J. Personnel Psychology (1995)
    2. Re:Thank you IBM by azzy · · Score: 1

      Ouch.. a bit harsh. I simply wanted to express my thanks towards IBM for sticking with Linux and for showing real support. No I didn't expect SCO to scare them off, but I am still glad to see it didn't happen.

    3. Re:Thank you IBM by smittyoneeach · · Score: 1

      C'mon. Linux is IBM's way of saying to Redmond:
      A big fsck you
      For the bone on OS/2

      --
      Get thee glass eyes, and, like a scurvy politician, seem to see things thou dost not.--King Lear
    4. Re:Thank you IBM by AndroidCat · · Score: 3, Interesting
      Government security certification is a long process with much paperwork. I'm not sure about these certification levels, but they used to take your hardware/software and test it. If it didn't pass, all you were told was that failed, not why. Fun fun fun! I was rolling on floor when Microsoft claimed that NT had passed B2. The slightest change/patches and you had to start all over again. :^)

      IBM probably started the process years ago. Note that it's only the IBM/SuSE distro that's certified (I'm guessing). Other companies should probably look into it. The article doesn't say how much it cost IBM, but I bet it wasn't cheap!

      --
      One line blog. I hear that they're called Twitters now.
  3. Can vs. Will by Acidic_Diarrhea · · Score: 1, Insightful

    Just because the government can consider buying Linux, doesn't mean it will. After all, Microsoft has got a pretty firm hold on the burecrats in charge.

    --
    I hate liberals. If you are a liberal, do not reply.
    1. Re:Can vs. Will by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

      And you think IBM doesn't know how to handle bureaucrats? They invented the game and probably patented it as well.

    2. Re:Can vs. Will by Liselle · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Don't underestimate how cheap people can be. It goes hand-in-hand with greed. Windows is not precisely free.

      Members of government are also accountable to their constituents. As people become more and more aware of Linux, they will also become more aware of the security problems with Windows. A few years ago, there was no basis for comparison. Now there is, and the more information that gets out there, the better. It's cliche' now to say this, but the days are numbered for stranglehold Microsoft holds, one way or the other.

      --
      Auto-reply to ACs: "Truly, you have a dizzying intellect."
    3. Re:Can vs. Will by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      M$/Dell/EDS has the Navy and Marine Corps locked in for the next seven years.... Unless there is a congessional mandate, there won't be any changes here for a while...

    4. Re:Can vs. Will by EvilTwinSkippy · · Score: 1
      With ever tightening budgets, and demands to do more with less people the equations naturally point towards Linux.

      Capital, like water, flows downhill seeking the softest path at every turn. One can steer a river, over a short stretch. One can even try to place a river where none ever existed with a Canal. But these artifical minglings require work to maintain. They are ever under siege from the elements. Those that seek to build around them always fall into woe when the river itself overflows.

      Will is a powerful thing, but the natural order of the Universe in unsurmountable.

      --
      "Learning is not compulsory... neither is survival."
      --Dr.W.Edwards Deming
    5. Re:Can vs. Will by sporty · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Well, look at it this way. If you couldn't, trying would be futile. Sorta like trying to get water/blood from a stone. But, with linux certified, saying that you will not even have one supporter of linux in gov't just got a little unreasonable.

      You have big corps like IBM, HP and Dell saying, "it's ok."
      You have many countries saying "It's ok, see?"
      You have the US (via certification) saying "it's ok."

      Seems more unreasonable to say it will never happen every other day.

      --

      -
      ping -f 255.255.255.255 # if only

    6. Re:Can vs. Will by Anonym0us+Cow+Herd · · Score: 2, Insightful

      After all, Microsoft has got a pretty firm hold on the burecrats in charge.

      When you've got them by the balls, you don't need to hold all that firmly.

      --
      The price of freedom is eternal litigation.
    7. Re:Can vs. Will by idontgno · · Score: 5, Informative
      There are a lot of factors, indeed, but at in least one US military IT acquisition that I'm familiar with, the choice of OS platform was driven purely by purchase cost. That's why this contract chose Major-Brand (tm) PCs with some flavor of RedHat (with support contract) to succeed Sun Ultra workstations running Slowlaris(tm), the incumbent system in the field. Customer wanted to drive the acquisition cost down down down.

      Even the greediest government agency has to operate within budget, after all. And in the US military, budgets have held mostly constant while obligations associated with things like war-fighting have gone up, so your non-combat line items get shrunk to make up the difference.

      --
      Welcome to the Panopticon. Used to be a prison, now it's your home.
    8. Re:Can vs. Will by keester · · Score: 5, Insightful

      The fact is that developers can now start recommending Linux. Anti-Linux / Pro-Windows people can no longer use the excuse that Linux isn't an "approved" OS.

      Surprisingly, it can be hard to convince most people in government positions, civil service, military, contractors, etc., that _we_ don't want to pay for Window's licenses, and _we_ don't always need to spend waaayyyy too much money on waaayyyy too much hardware.

      This is great news for people that work for the government. Kudos to IBM for footing the bill on this, as it is an expensive process.

      --
      Take it easy? I'll take it anyway I can get it . . .
    9. Re:Can vs. Will by jellomizer · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Well IBM is a force to be reckoned with as well. In some ways a little more then Microsoft. Especially in New York State, where almost all the agencies use IBM products. But it was IBM who brought Microsoft into the mainstream. And they can probably bring Linux into the mainstream. It will not be an overnight adoption but a gradual one.

      --
      If something is so important that you feel the need to post it on the internet... It probably isn't that important.
    10. Re:Can vs. Will by 4of12 · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Just because the government can consider buying Linux, doesn't mean it will.

      Correct. And it's true that no one ever got fired for buying Microsoft.

      But much of the Linux deployment in government up to this point has been precisely because it can be had for no official government expenditure. It's always harder to get money for projects than it is to get money to keep your existing people. Those people have been doing some testing of Linux.

      Shoestring Linux projects have proven themselves to be not only cost-effective, but generally reliable and useful.

      Given that prototype testing already in place, authorizing incremental purchases to add on to that base of Linux functionality is an easier decision than if were made cold, without any evidence to support.

      --
      "Provided by the management for your protection."
    11. Re:Can vs. Will by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yeah, we are getting the NMCI crap where we work. But we will still have lots of Linux and Unix systems for our real work. I'm in the middle of a RH 9.0 install right now....

    12. Re:Can vs. Will by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
      Even the greediest government agency has to operate within budget, after all. And in the US military, budgets have held mostly constant while obligations associated with things like war-fighting have gone up, so your non-combat line items get shrunk to make up the difference.

      Of course that explains why the US Army just signed a huge contract for Microsoft software. Because they are all about staying within budget.

    13. Re:Can vs. Will by EvilTwinSkippy · · Score: 1

      Only the certifiable rely on certifications for decision making.

      --
      "Learning is not compulsory... neither is survival."
      --Dr.W.Edwards Deming
    14. Re:Can vs. Will by EvilTwinSkippy · · Score: 2, Interesting
      Correct. And it's true that no one ever got fired for buying Microsoft.

      No one gets fired, true. The powers that be simply move in a Unix admin and eliminate the Windows guy's position.

      I speak from experience, on the good end of the shotgun. Unix guys can do Windows, and oh so much more.

      --
      "Learning is not compulsory... neither is survival."
      --Dr.W.Edwards Deming
    15. Re:Can vs. Will by Captain+Large+Face · · Score: 2, Funny

      "They invented the game and probably patented it as well."

      Yeah? Well, Amazon patented Patenting...

    16. Re:Can vs. Will by sporty · · Score: 1

      It is implied by saying who in gov't would support it.

      --

      -
      ping -f 255.255.255.255 # if only

    17. Re:Can vs. Will by pmz · · Score: 1

      ...pretty firm hold...

      That's putting it lightly, at least for the men...

    18. Re:Can vs. Will by caino59 · · Score: 1

      yea, ms does have a pretty good hold on the government.

      my mind is still blown that the received the homeland security contract.

      microsoft and security are normally only in the same sentance to when refering to the lack of said security.

    19. Re:Can vs. Will by richie2000 · · Score: 1
      And it's true that no one ever got fired for buying Microsoft.

      Before that saying was even a tiny rumble in Steve Ballmer's gut, we used to say "No one has ever gotten fired for buying IBM". Pitching Big Blue against the Runner-up from Redmond seems a little like a lopsided battle to me.

      --
      Money for nothing, pix for free
    20. Re:Can vs. Will by wo1verin3 · · Score: 1

      >> Correct. And it's true that no one ever got
      >> fired for buying Microsoft.

      Maybe not, but when I worked in a software store one lady came in to return a piece of software and said if she didn't her boss would fire her for wasting money on useless software.

      Product Name: Microsoft Bob

    21. Re:Can vs. Will by LarsG · · Score: 2, Insightful

      I speak from experience, on the good end of the shotgun. Unix guys can do Windows, and oh so much more.

      Dunno. I've met MCSEs that would never be able to navigate an Xterm, and Unix zealots that think Win2K is equivalent with W95.

      Running a large Windows network properly does require knowledge and experience, and I'm not convinced that most *nix admins would be able to do the same without at least half a year of training (but a typical *nix admin would probably learn the Win fundamentals faster than the other way around).

      --
      If J.K.R wrote Windows: Puteulanus fenestra mortalis!
    22. Re:Can vs. Will by Nucleon500 · · Score: 3, Interesting
      Correct. And it's true that no one ever got fired for buying Microsoft.

      Nope.

    23. Re:Can vs. Will by joshholtzman · · Score: 2, Informative

      US military, budgets have held mostly constant

      Which US are you talking about? In the United States, we're spending $48 Billion more this year than last. That's the "largest rise in US military spending in 20 years". Don't be fooled, the Pentagon has plenty of money.

    24. Re:Can vs. Will by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Your sarcasm fails. Right now, the actual costs of large scale Linux deployments are pretty much unknown. So, if you want to say within budget, you go with the known quantity.

    25. Re:Can vs. Will by WoTG · · Score: 1

      I might add that with bigger projects, it's not an individual "buying Linux", but a team "hiring IBM" or some other consultants to implement whatever project they're working on. Since IBM footed the bill for getting SUSE this certification, we can only assume that they'll be offering it in a lot of their proposals in the future. So, if problems arise, you can yell at IBM... thus, it's all the same to the end user.

    26. Re:Can vs. Will by wirelessbuzzers · · Score: 1

      This is more true than you might guess. Hollerith, the founder of IBM, is famous for building an electronic census-analyzing machine for the goverment.

      --
      I hereby place the above post in the public domain.
    27. Re:Can vs. Will by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      That certainly does not translate to plenty of AVAILABLE money! The "peace dividend" was paid for by shorting procurement of billions of dollars in basic necessities (bombs, aircraft support equipment, spare parts, etc) which depleted the system since wars are fought from stock on hand.
      Much of current funding is going to patch these shortfalls.

    28. Re:Can vs. Will by Pope · · Score: 1

      Don't be fooled, the Pentagon has plenty of moneyThey may have it in their hands, but it's ALL borrowed.

      --
      It doesn't mean much now, it's built for the future.
    29. Re:Can vs. Will by Shardis · · Score: 1

      "Correct. And it's true that no one ever got fired for buying Microsoft."

      While an overly generalized statement, I do know plenty of freelance consultants that haven't been retained for quoting MS licensing fees to smaller (ever been fired for buying MS? Doubtful in the extreme...

    30. Re:Can vs. Will by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You know, that made me think of the old Roadrunner cartoons. The way MS is always trying desperately to keep up with the ubergeeks, who suddenly go "beep beep" and go to warp in a cloud of smoke leaving the raggedy-ass coyote behind, usually falling into a canyon and landing in a puff of dust that does not actually say "Bob", but probably should. /BigBlack

  4. Just wondering.. by CausticWindow · · Score: 4, Interesting

    What are the ratings and how does other common OS's score? Anybody know?

    --
    How small a thought it takes to fill a whole life
    1. Re:Just wondering.. by nakhla · · Score: 5, Informative

      I believe Linux received an EAL 2. Windows 2000, however has received an EAL 4. An EAL 4 involves more security checks and requirements.

    2. Re:Just wondering.. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Informative
    3. Re:Just wondering.. by gurisees · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Try the CCEVS home page... Here you can find the Validated Products List.

      --
      ... information wants to be forwarded ...
    4. Re:Just wondering.. by WARM3CH · · Score: 1

      check this list. As you can seen there are mostly *nix based systems and also Win2K listed as EAL4 and no, XP is not there!

    5. Re:Just wondering.. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Informative

      You can get an overview at networkcomputing.com or at the common citeria web site.

    6. Re:Just wondering.. by EinarH · · Score: 1
      I was looking into this yesterday.
      Basicly, the "scoring" in the Common Criteria is based uppon Evaluation Assurance Levels from EAL1 to EAL7. List of the levelss here.

      After evaluation product get on the CCPL (Centralised Certified Product List) here
      Apperantly this is not a complete list; and Linux via IBM is not listed yet.
      It is not o the "Products in Evaluation List" here either, so I guess they are uppdating their lists now.

      No product has a higher rating than 5 right now. Most product get a 4 or 4+.
      The list is crowded by firewalls and all the "old UNIX derivates" such as HP-UX, AIX, Solaris,etc. Microsoft got Win 2000 SP3. Cisco, Symantec, SecureLogic and Entrust also got product on the list.

      But one company is missing form the list:.. The company we all ehh love: SCO. ;-)

      --

      Melius mori in libertate quam vivere in servitute.

    7. Re:Just wondering.. by TedCheshireAcad · · Score: 4, Insightful

      If Win2k gets a higher rating than Linux, then why do we have stuff like this happening?

      Isn't it odd that a "comprehensive security rating" can overlook something as serious as a complete remote compromise?

    8. Re:Just wondering.. by NetJunkie · · Score: 1

      It's not a rating of who has less patches. It's a rating of the security feature set that the OS includes.

    9. Re:Just wondering.. by Florian+Weimer · · Score: 2, Informative

      If Win2k gets a higher rating than Linux, then why do we have stuff like this [cert.org] happening?

      Read the certification assumptions: cooperative users in a benign environment, and network connections only to hosts in the same administrative domain. In short: "Don't use this on the Internet, or the certification is completely meaningless."

      Furthermore, certification just guarantees that a certain process is followed, and the process itself doesn't guarantee anything about implementation errors (except for the mitigation process), at least at such low levels as EAL4+.

      (AFAIK, it wasn't even the default configuration that was certified.)

    10. Re:Just wondering.. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Windows XP and Windows Server 2003 are currently being evaluated, along with several other products from Microsoft. They are also going for an EAL 4 certification.

    11. Re:Just wondering.. by dki · · Score: 1
      There is also more detailed information in the SuSE press release, including the following:

      "SuSE Linux Enterprise Server 8 on IBM eServer xSeries has earned an Evaluation Assurance Level 2+ certification, commonly referred to as EAL2+. IBM and SuSE also announced today that the companies have filed for a higher level of security certification for SuSE Linux, the Controlled Access Protection Profile with EAL3+ across the IBM eServer product line, which is expected later this year."

    12. Re:Just wondering.. by molarmass192 · · Score: 3, Interesting

      I found this link which has more details, looks like it is EAL2 after all. I also found that Red Hat and Oracle are planning on going after EAL4 for the latest RHAS so the W2K advantage might be short lived.

      --

      Good people do not need laws to tell them to act responsibly, while bad people will find a way around the laws-Plato
    13. Re:Just wondering.. by ajs318 · · Score: 1

      I'm just wondering.

      Government departments might have a need to be certain about the software they are using. If you supplied closed source software to the Government, what is to stop you from logging every keystroke or something similar, behind their backs, if they can't see the source code? There is real potential for National Security to be compromised if governments are using untrustworthy software.

      So, I'm presuming that Government departments can and do mandate that software suppliers show them the source code - and, if necesary, that they compile it under appropriate supervision - otherwise they will exercise their right to shop elsewhere. After all, rules are rules and apply equally to all. So it's not as though this would favour any one company over another.

      They do, don't they? Check the source code thoroughly, I mean. Don't they? Surely to goodness the government considers the real rights of the people not to be spied on or charged too much money for essential services {amongst other things} an order of magnitude more important than the supposed right of a corporation to keep secrets from its customers?

      If someone who works in a Government department responsible for auditing source code of software to determine its suitability for Governmental use could let me know, this would set my mind at rest.

      --
      Je fume. Tu fumes. Nous fûmes!
    14. Re:Just wondering.. by ibm1130 · · Score: 1

      One wonders if this is the same sort of certification that Winders obtained years ago.
      Yeah it was secure but only in a locked room with no connection to a network.

      IBM

    15. Re:Just wondering.. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "There is real potential for National Security to be compromised if governments are using untrustworthy software. "

      That's why the NSA uses its own flavour of Linux. Some things are just too important to be left in the hands of people who have a proven track record of doing anything - including breaking the law - just to make money.

    16. Re:Just wondering.. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Good point. Most linux/bsd distros default config are quite secure, whereas the default in Windows (which most people use) is extremely open and very vulnerable. Even if the machine gets patched on a regular basis, which I don't buy that most people do.

    17. Re:Just wondering.. by pmz · · Score: 1, Troll

      Isn't it odd that a "comprehensive security rating" can overlook something as serious as a complete remote compromise?

      A Microsoft engineer made a loud noise to distract the certification people during that part of the testing...

    18. Re:Just wondering.. by Florian+Weimer · · Score: 3, Informative

      Most linux/bsd distros default config are quite secure, whereas the default in Windows (which most people use) is extremely open and very vulnerable.

      This is true at the moment, but it's changing with new product releases.

      For example, on Windows Server 2003, IIS is not installed by default, and if you install it, it binds to localhost only by default. I find this rather impressive for Microsoft because it shows that the company sacrifices trivial installation for more security. I wonder where they are heading. IMHO, it's getting more and more likely that Microsoft crushes the free software competition in the security area. Not because of certification, but because of more reliable software, better product management, courage to make decisions which inconvenience users etc. Right now, their advisories are already among the best the market offers (which also says something about the market, but still I wouldn't have predicted this two years ago).

    19. Re:Just wondering.. by evenprime · · Score: 4, Insightful
      TedCheshireAcad asked
      If Win2k gets a higher rating than Linux, then why do we have stuff like this happening?

      Isn't it odd that a "comprehensive security rating" can overlook something as serious as a complete remote compromise?
      No, it is not odd. It is expected, in fact. Microsoft's rating was for common criteria "CAPP/EAL4". The CAPP part means that the OS provides "a level of protection which is appropriate for an assumed non-hostile and well-managed user community requiring protection against threats of inadvertent or casual attempts to breach the system security". I don't consider the internet to be a non-hostile and well-managed user community, so I'm not the least bit surprised that hostile remote attacks are possible. The evaluations didn't say that it was safe to hang the microsoft box - or the linux one - on the internet.

      These lower level security evaluations don't mean much in terms of real security out on the big scarey internet; i.e. the situation most of us find our machines in all the time. (This has been discussed on slashdot before.) Basically, all that is necessary to get one is that you document *everything* and then throw a pile of money into having a government-approved independent organization evaluate your product and make sure that it does what the documentation says it does. If your product behaves as your documentation says it does, you get the certification. It is worth noting that OpenBSD, who have only had one remote hole in the default installation in seven years, have avoided these types of certifications for a long time. Look at Theo's comments on the C2 rating in the Orange Book (the predicessor of the common criteria.) This is the formal description of EAL4 in the official list of evaluation levels
      EAL4 - methodically designed, tested and reviewed

      EAL4 permits a developer to maximize assurance gained from positive security engineering based on good commercial development practices. Although rigorous, these practices do not require substantial specialist knowledge, skills, and other resources. EAL4 is the highest level at which it is likely to be economically feasible to retrofit to an existing product line. It is applicable in those circumstances where developers or users require a moderate to high level of independently assured security in conventional commodity TOEs, and are prepared to incur additional security-specific engineering costs.

      An EAL4 evaluation provides an analysis supported by the low-level design of the modules of the TOE, and a subset of the implementation. Testing is supported by an independent search for vulnerabilities. Development controls are supported by a life-cycle model, identification of tools, and automated configuration management.
      Notice that the goal is to "retrofit" a product line with security, and only to the degree that doing so is "economically feasible". Compare that with Bruce Schneier's comment that "Security isn't easy, nor is it something that you can bolt onto a product after the fact." No one should be surprised that feature-rich, general purpose operating systems designed for quick and easy use (i.e. everything turned on by default) are vulnerable.
      --

      "Weapons should be hardy rather than decorative" - Miyamoto Musashi
      I think that goes for OS's too
    20. Re:Just wondering.. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Windows did NOT score higher than Linux. Read the rating system it is 1-7 (weakest to highest security)

    21. Re:Just wondering.. by johnnyb · · Score: 1

      "IMHO, it's getting more and more likely that Microsoft crushes the free software competition in the security area"

      Doubtful, since they are losing ground in every other area (I'm not saying they are behind, but they are losing their headstart).

      "because of more reliable software, better product management, courage to make decisions which inconvenience users etc."

      The interesting thing is that the reason people bought from Microsoft, is that Microsoft sold them on the fantasy notion that system administration could be made to be an easy task handled by dummies. With that mentality, they started losing when everyone woke up and smelled the enterprise. With their new mentality, everyone will say, "so why should we bother with Microsoft when we can go a more open and cheaper route?"

      "Right now, their advisories are already among the best the market offers"

      Hahahahahahahahahahahaha!!!!!!!!!!

    22. Re:Just wondering.. by vanadium4761 · · Score: 1

      Today's Wininfo by Paul Thurott:

      Linux Rated Less Secure than Windows
      When Microsoft announced last fall that the International Organization for Standardization (ISO) had awarded Windows 2000 the highest possible grade in the Common Criteria (CC) security certification, open-source advocates downplayed the honor as insignificant and unrelated to real-world security analysis. This week, however, ISO also awarded Linux the CC security certification, and as one might expect, the open-source community greeted the announcement with cheers. There's just one catch: Linux got a lower security rating than Win2K did last year.
      ISO granted Linux a "low to moderate" security rating, whereas Win2K received a "moderate to high" security rating. According to people close to the certification process, ISO tested Linux for higher security ratings but the open-source solution achieved only the "low to moderate" rating.
      Further dampening the celebration is news that most Linux installations didn't receive the certification. Sponsored by a $500,000 fee that IBM paid, the certification applies only to SuSE Linux and then only when that product is installed on certain IBM hardware. Still, the certification is an important first step for Linux, which is trying to position itself as a viable alternative to Windows in various situations. Microsoft has made significant security-related improvements to Windows since the company launched its Trustworthy Computing initiative a year and a half ago.

    23. Re:Just wondering.. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Windows 2000 was CAPP/EAL4 certified, which means it's only EAL4-certified on a non-hostile network (ie: not connected to the Internet). AFAIK, W2K is not EAL-certified when connected to the Internet.

      By comparison, Linux has been EAL2+ certified on hostile networks (Internet).

    24. Re:Just wondering.. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      W2K doesn't actually have an advantage. It's CAPP/EAL4 certified, not EAL4 certified.

      The CAPP part means it only has its EAL4 rating on non-hostile networks. In other words, it becomes uncertified the instant you connect it to the Internet.

      Linux is EAL2+ certified in hostile networks.

    25. Re:Just wondering.. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Bingo. CAPP/EAL4 certification means the EAL4 cert is null and void the instant you connect it to the net.

      Linux got plain EAL2+ certification, without the CAPP part. It's certified even on the net.

    26. Re:Just wondering.. by Florian+Weimer · · Score: 1

      With their new mentality, everyone will say, "so why should we bother with Microsoft when we can go a more open and cheaper route?"

      Yes, this is another way things could turn out.

      "Right now, their advisories are already among the best the market offers"

      Hahahahahahahahahahahaha!!!!!!!!!!


      Actually, this isn't funny. It certainy shows that something is wrong. But at the moment, Microsoft easily outperforms Red Hat, SuSE and all the commercial UNIX vendors. And have you ever seen a Linux advisory (i.e. for the kernel itself)? Only the Netfilter maintainers seem to release them for their subsystem.

    27. Re:Just wondering.. by drinkypoo · · Score: 1
      Read the certification assumptions: cooperative users in a benign environment, and network connections only to hosts in the same administrative domain. In short: "Don't use this on the Internet, or the certification is completely meaningless."

      This really reminds me of NT's C2 security rating, which I believe it's had at least since NT4. In order to meet C2 security requirements, you must remove the floppy drive (or at least disconnect the floppy cable), disconnect it from the network, et cetera. A security rating that makes the system useless is, well, useless.

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
    28. Re:Just wondering.. by johnnyb · · Score: 1

      I haven't seen a Windows kernel advisory, either. Alan Cox won't reveal anything about kernel security out of fear of the DMCA.

      Most of the published insecurities with either system are in the libraries or applications, not the kernel.

    29. Re:Just wondering.. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Great post! Good to hear from someone who knows what they're talking about!

      An additional fact: CAPP (Controlled Access Protection Profile) was derived from the older TCSEC C2 standard. Basically CAPP is all the C2 requirements re-stated in Common Criteria form. (and yes, that includes not covering networking)

      So our security standards are still based on 1986 criteria, and they won't improve until someone writes an updated Protection Profile for the 21st century. (interested Mr. Schneier?)

      However, while this certification may not mean much to the technical crowd, I'm sure the PHBs see it as a very important advance. And since a PHB signs my paycheck, that makes it important to me!

      So, bring on EAL 4+++ !!

      rho

    30. Re:Just wondering.. by plcurechax · · Score: 2, Informative

      Common Criteria's CCPL (Centralised Certified Product List)- OS
      and the NIST's Validated Products List (Operating Systems).

      AIX 5L for PowerPC V5.2, Program Number 5765-E62
      B1/EST-X, V2.0.1 with AIX, V 4.3 (Bull)
      HP-UX (11i) Version 11.11
      IRIX v 6.5.13, with patches 4354, 4451, 4452
      IPSO 3.5 and 3.5.1 (Nokia)
      Trusted IRIX /CMW v 6.5.13, with patches 4354, 4451, 4452, 4373, 4473
      Solaris 8 2/02
      Trusted Solaris 8 4/01
      Sun Solaris Version 8 with AdminSuite v3.0.1
      Windows 2000 Professional, Server, and Advanced Server with SP3 and Q326886

    31. Re:Just wondering.. by Florian+Weimer · · Score: 1

      I haven't seen a Windows kernel advisory, either.

      Here us one.

      Alan Cox won't reveal anything about kernel security out of fear of the DMCA.

      He can use an anonymous remailer if he wants to publish verifiable information about security vulnerabilities. But Alan is neither the Linux Security Czar, nor does he maintain 2.4.x.

      However, it's true that publishing detailed vendor security advisories results in significant legal risks for the vendor. For software, it appears to be easy to exclude any warranties, but not for documents describing its behavior. But guess what? Microsoft is now willing to take such risks to protect customers. Why shouldn't Red Hat do the same?

      Most of the published insecurities with either system are in the libraries or applications, not the kernel.

      This certainly doesn't exempt developers from handling security issues if they arise anyway. There are still enough security issues in the kernel, and the maintainers should have gained some experience in dealing with it.

      But the kernel is just symptomatic for the whole system. Many subprojects aren't much better. Some do not bother to issue any advisories at all, some prefer very cryptic ones (BIND, Apache, OpenSSH). Sometimes, there are shining exceptions, such as recent Postfix advisory (however regrettable its necessity might be). Everything's there, especially how to tell if you are vulnerable, and how to apply countermeasures without changing the software itself. Compare it with the advisory from Red Hat.

    32. Re:Just wondering.. by johnnyb · · Score: 1

      I guess we'll just have to disagree. I think that, in comparison, Linux advisories tend to be much better. The fixes are even better because i can tell before applying exactly what the impact will be, and whether or not the fix actually fixes the underlying problem or just a symptom.

      Do you really think that Microsoft publishes security advisories for kernel problems that others don't point out and make public? The one you referenced was specifically referencing a third party which notified them. The Linux community also issues advisories for widely-known kernel issues as well.

    33. Re:Just wondering.. by plugger · · Score: 1
    34. Re:Just wondering.. by Oggust · · Score: 1
      No, it is not odd. It is expected, in fact. Microsoft's rating was for common criteria "CAPP/EAL4". The CAPP part means that the OS provides "a level of protection which is appropriate for an assumed non-hostile and well-managed user community requiring protection against threats of inadvertent or casual attempts to breach the system security". I don't consider the internet to be a non-hostile and well-managed user community, so I'm not the least bit surprised that hostile remote attacks are possible. The evaluations didn't say that it was safe to hang the microsoft box - or the linux one - on the internet.

      I agree with all that, but one thing is missing, and that is which Protection profile this linux configuration was tested against.

      I'd assume it was CAPP, but you never know. I can't see it in the press release...

      As far as I understand the CC you can't "just" be EALx, you name a set of features (normally a standard set like CAPP or LSPP, but it can be completely custom) that you claim to fulfill, and the testers assign an assurance rating depending on how probable it is you actually got it right.

      /August

      --
      "An object declared as type _Bool is large enough to store the values 0 and 1." -- 6.1.2.5, C99 standard.
    35. Re:Just wondering.. by RabidStoat · · Score: 1

      Have a look at http://www.itsec.gov.uk and follow the links to security evaluation criteria and you'll find a lot of information about the various systems and products formally evaluated (that are in the public domains obviously).

    36. Re:Just wondering.. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I can tell you (from personal experience, BTW) that any system with classified NSI (national security information, the stuff you seem concerned about) is never, ever hooked up to an external network. So any keylogger trojan put there by a spy in your OS vendor (to use your example) would have no way to send it's results out over the Internet.

      Furthermore, such systems do not have floppy drives and you are not allowed to insert writeable CDs into them. If the system allows such media to be inserted, any disks that are put in the box are classified in accordance with the level of info stored on the machine (whether or not you copied anything to them). Those disks can never leave the building except under strict guidelines by mail or courier to be shipped to an approved recipient of classsified info.

      So if your OS vendor installed a keylogger, in order to get the resulting data off the system, they'd have to employ someone with physical access to the system and the ability to smuggle media in and out. And if you've got someone like that on your payroll, why bother installing the keylogger at all? Your insider could just copy the files you want!

      So you can put your mind at rest-- no system with important classified info is going to get broken into by a remote Windows buffer overflow :)

    37. Re:Just wondering.. by hwyguy2 · · Score: 1
      and the testers assign an assurance rating depending on how probable it is you actually got it right.


      Actually, the testers don't assign the EAL. It, too, must be claimed in the target, and determines how much work the evaluators do. (And the evaluators must follow a specific procedure, called the Common Evaluation Methodology, that is overseen by an approved government organization. See the NIAP Web Page for more information.


      Daniel

    38. Re:Just wondering.. by Florian+Weimer · · Score: 1

      I guess we'll just have to disagree. I think that, in comparison, Linux advisories tend to be much better. The fixes are even better because i can tell before applying exactly what the impact will be, and whether or not the fix actually fixes the underlying problem or just a symptom.

      Quote from a recent Debian advisory on phpgroupware:


      - CAN-2003-0599: Unknown vulnerability in the Virtual File System
      (VFS) capability for phpGroupWare 0.9.16preRC and versions before
      0.9.14.004 with unknown implications, related to the VFS path being
      under the web document root.


      Quite helpful, eh?

      The only reason we aren't completely lost is the availability of source code patches. However, how many shops which run Linux have employees with the skills and knowledge necessary to quickly analyze source code and recommend how to proceed?

      Do you really think that Microsoft publishes security advisories for kernel problems that others don't point out and make public? The one you referenced was specifically referencing a third party which notified them. The Linux community also issues advisories for widely-known kernel issues as well.

      Only true if you define "widely known" to mean "we issued an advisory".

    39. Re:Just wondering.. by Florian+Weimer · · Score: 1

      Depends on your distribution, I imagine:

      This is exactly my point. Marcelo just doesn't care about security issues (look at the release cycles). You should run vendor kernels on production machines, not the kernel.org version (that's the public opinion of quite a few influential kernel developers!).

      However, this solves only part of the problem. Since there is no central source of security-related information, we are fully hit by the Chinese Whisper phenomenon.

      For example, Red Hat wrote in their advisory:

      CAN-2003-0552: Jerry Kreuscher discovered that the Forwarding table could be spoofed by sending forged packets with bogus source addresses the same as the local host.

      "Forwarding table" could mean that IP forwarding is affected, but Debian writes:

      Linux 2.4.x allows remote attackers to spoof the bridge forwarding table via forged packets whose source addresses are the same as the target.

      So who's right? Are you safe if you don't run bridging (and maybe just IP forwarding), or are you still vulnerable?

    40. Re:Just wondering.. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      And if you believe that...

    41. Re:Just wondering.. by johnnyb · · Score: 1

      "Quite helpful, eh?"

      yes, actually. They are pointing out that there is a potential for a security hole LONG before anyone knows how to exploit it for anything. Do you think Microsoft releases security bulletins for things only it knows about, which have no known exploits? No, they don't. They just roll the fixes into the next service pack.

      "Only true if you define "widely known" to mean "we issued an advisory"."

      No, it's true if you define "widely known" as _someone_ issuing an advisory. The same is true for Windows. Most of the security problems that they release advisories for, are ONLY those which external organizations have contacted them about, and are planning to go public with.

      So, although I think there are problems with both systems, I think the Linux one is much more open and honest (though not completely), and is more likely to warn you before there are problems, rather than after.

      One thing to notice is the number of security warnings issued for Linux systems where the problem is a race condition that has to be exploited by someone being logged on the machine performing split-second operations on temp files. Such a scenario would mean that it would not make it on Microsoft's advisory list, while Linux people find it very serious.

  5. Another link by manduwok · · Score: 5, Informative

    CNN.com has this story too.

    1. Re:Another link by plaa · · Score: 4, Informative
      The CNN article (as some others I found using Google News) point out a few important facts that were omitted from the Yahoo story. A few important quotes:

      Linux was certified as providing only "low to moderate" security, compared with the same group's certification as "moderate to high" last year of the security of Microsoft's Windows 2000 software. Supporters said Linux software, whose popular mascot is a penguin, was under testing for better-security ratings.


      So it isn't yet certified at the same level as Windows.

      The approval, being announced Tuesday, involves only one version of Linux, from SuSE Linux AG, a vendor based in Nuremberg, Germany, when the software is installed on a particular line of IBM's server computers. IBM, which paid roughly $500,000 for the testing, and SuSE were announcing the certification jointly.


      So if anybody else wants to be selling Linux to the US government, they have to shell out those hundreds of thousands of dollars themselves.

      So maybe not much use for the overall community, but certainly a landmark in the history of Linux, and it shows that it certainly can be done!
      --

      I doubt, therefore I may be.
    2. Re:Another link by snopes · · Score: 1

      > So if anybody else wants to be selling Linux to the US government, they have to shell out those hundreds of thousands of dollars themselves.

      Not really true. As with the old TCSEC levels, CC EALs are mostly about specific configurations and availability of services. I am not as up on the EAL details as I should be, but I have no doubt that if you were a VAR with government contracts you could easily (in time) get the information needed to replicate the IBM/Suse config and sell a verifiable system to a gov. department.

      Something to be aware of, however, as will all things bureaucratic, this is merely a step in the direction of sales to gov. It's going to be quite some time before you see the IBM press release about "US Dept. of Foo Installs 1200 units of IBM/Suse Linux computers." It's the follow-on hurdles which pre-existing government contractors will get over much more easily than most (IBM included). That's the real barrier to entry for doing business with the gov. The CC stuff will all eventually be documented and made available.

  6. Finally confirming it by AndyFewt · · Score: 1

    What this means is that government can consider Linux when making purchasing decisions.
    I thought they already could and have in most cases. Now they have the extra bit of paper which says its ok to use it though.

    Linux got the highest rating possible.
    Would you expect anything less?

    1. Re:Finally confirming it by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Linux got the highest rating possible.

      Accept it didn't; it got the second lowest (EAL2).

      CmdrTaco pulling "facts" out of his ass.

      Would you expect anything less?

  7. Big win for Linux! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Informative

    Microsoft set out to get Win2K certified and only completed the process last October according to .

    Linux now has the upper hand because MS does not yet have XP certified.

    1. Re:Big win for Linux! by Dot.Com.CEO · · Score: 3, Insightful

      XP is a desktop OS, and hardly needs security certification of that level. Windows 2003 server just came out a few months ago. Give it time. I bet the Linux configuration that was certified was not exactly 2.5 kernel material running debian unstable.

      --
      Mother is the best bet and don't let Satan draw you too fast.
    2. Re:Big win for Linux! by u-235-sentinel · · Score: 1

      Wasn't Microsoft going for Orange Book certification? If so then isn't one of the Orange Book requirements removing the network card? How useful is that?

      Novell several years ago obtained Red Book certification for Netware 4.x which allows a network card to be part of the system. Much more useful IMO.

      The article didn't mention Red Book but I'll bet that's what Linux has received. Nice :-)

      --
      Has Comcast disconnected your Internet account? Same here. You can read about it at http://comcastissue.blogspot.com
    3. Re:Big win for Linux! by EvilTwinSkippy · · Score: 4, Insightful
      Excuse me? Windows 2003 is an entirely new product and requires an entirely new certification.

      Linux DOES have an advantage. I can always get support for a old version of a distro. (Worst case, I AM the support.) Now here we are in 2003. It takes M$ 2 years to get Windows certified. They stop shipping the product after 3 years, and pull the plug after 5. That means you have, tops, 3 useful years of a M$ product in a sensitive environment. Less when you consider implementation time.

      People gripe about how the space shuttle runs on old equipment, but you have to remember, there are plenty of installations that require computing hardware to be embedded for decades. Think factory equipment, weapon systems, utilities, traffic lights, aircraft.

      When engineering those systems you use the most stable installation you can find, strip it down to just what you need, and run it until you can't buy parts for it anymore.

      Now how do you do that within a 5 year Window again?

      --
      "Learning is not compulsory... neither is survival."
      --Dr.W.Edwards Deming
    4. Re:Big win for Linux! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      XP is a desktop OS, and hardly needs security certification of that level

      I have to disagree. A lot of system compromises are done from a client machine where most users put their u/p on a post-it. Someone reads it(or brute forces their weak passwords) and gets into that machine. Eventually getting to the server to compromise that masquerading as a legal user undetected.

      I think that getting XP certified is just as important as getting 2003 certified.

    5. Re:Big win for Linux! by ssimpson · · Score: 1

      XP is a desktop OS, and hardly needs security certification of that level.

      I guess you haven't implemented too many systems on classified networks then? The client devices are generally implemented to the same or higher standards and criteria as servers (which is why there are products like Windows 2000 SE etc).

      Most environments implement more stringent controls on desktop devices because these are generally more accessible (e.g. on peoples desks with only a lock to protect, rather than in a very controlled/guarded server room).


      --
      "Mary had a crypto key, she kept it in escrow, and everything that Mary said, the Feds were sure to know."
    6. Re:Big win for Linux! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      at the south pole there is a linux box still running a pre 1.0 kernel and is still happily chugging along collecting data nad sending thr telemetry reports.

      Something with that ability is beyond the capabilities of any microsoft product.

      Remember microsoft = toy OS... linux = a true professional OS.

      they are not even in the same league.

      it's like comparing a Kia-Rio (windows) to a custom built race car.

    7. Re:Big win for Linux! by Dot.Com.CEO · · Score: 1

      True enough, but the certification in question is intended for servers, not workstations / clients.

      --
      Mother is the best bet and don't let Satan draw you too fast.
    8. Re:Big win for Linux! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yeah.. Linux (again) beats the shit out of windows.. and the M$-fayboys SUDDENLY defend their shiny XP by reducing it to "just a desktop OS".

      So when Linux will be "ready for the desktop" (yawn...) what pro's does XP have left then? Games that require me to TEST them?

    9. Re:Big win for Linux! by jonhuang · · Score: 1

      A little off topic, but IBM still supports OS/2. Make what you will of that.

    10. Re:Big win for Linux! by YrWrstNtmr · · Score: 1

      Well..first off, you generally don't run an embedded system with a desktop OS.

      A "5 year Window" does not mean that at the end of 5 years the system magically turns itself off.

      There are people out there still running DOS 6 for day to day critical business apps. There are still many implementation of NT 3.51 or NT4. Support? What support is needed? Build the system, install it, and run your application on top of it. If a huge hole crops up years later, after MS cuts off 'support' for it, you have the option. Ignore it, or upgrade. Same as with Linux. You wouldn't continue to run Linux 1.1 if it were unstable, would you? No, You'd upgrade the OS to a newer, more stable, more secure version.

      Nothing says you have to upgrade after MS cuts off support. That only means that MS will no longer provide updates to the base OS. You can change or rewrite your applications all you want.

      And, just as with Linux...MS is not the sole point of 'support'. Have a question? There are newsgroups with millions of people ready and waiting to answer. Just like with Linux.

      There is no 'remote off switch'. (as of yet, anyway)

      DISCLAIMER: I'm not saying Win or Linux is better or worse. But please don't spread misinformation and incorrect assumptions.

    11. Re:Big win for Linux! by danila · · Score: 1

      Source code availability is important. Upgrading from Win95 to WinXP because there is one bug that nobody can fix is not pleasant. You get this one bug fixed, but hundreds (of thousands?) more are introduced. Plus you might lose compatibility. With Linux 0.* you can find the bug (yourself), fix it (yourself), patch your system and have it happily running again.

      --
      Future Wiki -- If you don't think about the future, you cannot have one.
    12. Re:Big win for Linux! by johnnyb · · Score: 1

      "Support? What support is needed? Build the system, install it, and run your application on top of it. If a huge hole crops up years later, after MS cuts off 'support' for it, you have the option. Ignore it, or upgrade. Same as with Linux. "

      Wrong. With Windows, you have to upgrade EVERYTHING to the latest release. That means migrating software configurations, and modifying everything to use whatever the latest standard is. With Linux, you have the source, so you can just fix the problem itself, and keep going. This is a huge difference.

      "And, just as with Linux...MS is not the sole point of 'support'."

      Yes they are. They are the sole point of _complete_ support. Ultimately, HP and Dell and even IBM have to depend on Microsoft for authoritative technical information and patches. Linux people can just use the source.

      As for the newsgroups, I know they exist for both, but, at least IMHO, the ones for Linux are much better.

    13. Re:Big win for Linux! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If you're going for decades of reliability, then you should be using QNX, not Windows or Linux.

    14. Re:Big win for Linux! by cp5i6 · · Score: 1

      This post is retarded, why is it even remotely a 4

      First off the previous post mentioned nothing about win2k3 not requiring new certification. He said give it time.

      And if you haven't recalled Windows 2k has been out for a while now and it has a strong user base on top of that. To quote your mongoloid statement (Worst case, I AM the support).

      On top of that MS will support their products way after their life spans. You can still get support for the old office 95 suites.

      Now I won't argue the merits of anything before Win2k because there are none. But you must compare apples to apples. What the hell are you talking about when you mention aircrafts and traffic lights? Win2k and Any major flavor of linux used in the context of the government certification has NOTHING remotely AT ALL related to traffic lights, utilities and weapon systems.

      But the problem really lies in asses like you who add nothing of value to the computing world. I completely support a previous users comment that a competent Win2k Admin can be just as good as a Nix Admin on their respective systems.

    15. Re:Big win for Linux! by EvilTwinSkippy · · Score: 1
      I have to compliment your sublime ability to keep the conversation civil. Indeed, such a sensitive, well spoken individual as yourself is a rare thing on Slashdot.

      Now I would suggest for you a tour of some very boring places.

      One would be a steel mill. Look around, and count the number of computers controlling equipment and acquiring data for Statistical Process Control. No, don't be fooled by those thermal bar codes over everything, inventory control is still done by people with clipboards. The UPC scanners are a ruse. And try to ignore that much of this is done with ruggedized versions of conventional computing equipment.

      Now, wander over to your local streets department. Try to ignore that massive fiber-optic distribution board if they give you a tour. Also ignore the embedded computing equipment that operates the traffic lights. And the next time you see all the lights go green to clear a path for emergency vehicles, know that's is all magic.

      If you want a really nifty tour, stop over to your local Army base. They aren't using any computers in HQ. Those laptops handling logistics really are warmers for the MREs. The commanders aren't coordinating their units with those computers either. It's testmarketing for a new game called Janus.

      In regards to an MSCE being as useful as a Unix admin, I would also like to point out there is no Santa Clause, Tooth Fairy, or Easter Bunny. By the way, you were not brought here by a stork: your dad has sex with your mom.

      --
      "Learning is not compulsory... neither is survival."
      --Dr.W.Edwards Deming
    16. Re:Big win for Linux! by RzUpAnmsCwrds · · Score: 1

      "Something with that ability is beyond the capabilities of any microsoft product."

      Well, except any microsoft product with a NT kernel OS and the services turned off, which is likely the case of that south-pole computer. Remember that ad with the five nines? They weren't making that up.

      "Remember microsoft = toy OS... linux = a true professional OS."

      Wow... what is that stench? Oh, it's the smell of a troll.

    17. Re:Big win for Linux! by YrWrstNtmr · · Score: 1

      Wrong. With Windows, you have to upgrade EVERYTHING to the latest release. That means migrating software configurations, and modifying everything to use whatever the latest standard is.

      Really? Office97 runs quite happily on top of WinXP, and I expect 2003 Server. All you have done is upgrade the OS. All your custom and commercial apps are still in place. On one of my laptops, I'm running .NET server 2003 beta. And it has a couple of Win95 era programs tooling along nicely.

      At work, we've had more problems with Linux x.x, Apache, and Oracle 9i playing nicely than problems with varying flavors of Windows.

      Just because Bill and the gang trot out a new release, doesn't mean you have to follow along behind.

    18. Re:Big win for Linux! by johnnyb · · Score: 1

      Does IIS 4 run on Windows 2003? Nope, have to migrate. There are many tools that fall into this category, not to mention the operating system configuration itself.

      "At work, we've had more problems with Linux x.x, Apache, and Oracle 9i playing nicely than problems with varying flavors of Windows."

      Again, you are mixing in a closed-source component. Thus, it _is_ hard to work around problems. Using Postgres it is pretty easy.

      In fact, I even made a patch to Postgres to make it match our company's workflow. It took me all of 2.5 hours, and I wasn't even familiar with the Postgres code base. It will be included in 7.5 I believe, but it cleanly patches to releases before that. If you're curious, it's at http://www.eskimo.com/~johnnyb/pgdump-cvs-patch.di ff

      If I wanted to do something similar with Oracle or SQL Server, I imagine the response would be along the lines of "Go take a hike".

    19. Re:Big win for Linux! by YrWrstNtmr · · Score: 1

      Are there problems blending different verions of Windows and various products? Sure.

      But it is disingenuous and incorrect to say that every time Redmond puts out a new version, you must upgrade immediately, and never ever use a previous version. And with the OS upgrade, all the other tools.

      That is simply not true.

    20. Re:Big win for Linux! by johnnyb · · Score: 1

      I understand how you misunderstood me. My point was that under Linux, you can backport fixes to whatever version you are running, but on Windows, you have to upgrade to the latest version. I did not intend to mean that you had to upgrade all of your applications, just that you had to upgrade all of whatever application had the advisory - thus the problem of there not being support for old versions, you have to upgrade the whole thing or nothing. With Linux, you can backport fixes, which the distributions (both community and commercial-based) do quite well.

    21. Re:Big win for Linux! by cp5i6 · · Score: 1

      I enjoy sublime ability for crassness.

      You're not exactly the brightest bulb in the room.
      Nor are you the sharpest tool in the shed.

      Perhaps you'd need to join that tour with me and perhaps you may learn a thing or two about how these systems actually DO work.

      First off you were talking all about embedded systems in the previous argument. Another point I will bring to your attention is if you for even a moment think that the nations weapons system is controlled by a laptop, you must be smoking something pretty good.

      And if I were smoking the same thing I just might see Santa Clause, Tooth Fairy or Easter Bunny.

      The above embedded systems, such as traffic lights, utility systems nor weapons systems do not use ANY MAJOR distribution of linux.

      As with your last statement, you have demonstrated your exceptional ability for reading.
      Did your teacher ever tell you about the acronym RIF? - Reading is Fundamental.
      It's very important you catch that because you seem to have trouble doing so. Where in my response did I mention anything about MSCE?

      And someone should have slapped your parents for bringing you into this world.

  8. Cool ;-) IBM forked over the few milllion.... by Creepy+Crawler · · Score: 3, Interesting

    Hey, you really cant go wrong with a open source, GPL'ed operating system where drivers are wrote by guys from NASA (Thanks Mr. Becker), and your security ACL's are wrote by the Spooks (heh, thanks NoSuchAgency ;-).

    It REALLY beats closed source OS'es (for govt's) as even our own MS of America wont let us see the code because it's "dangerous". However showing the Chinese is A-OK.

    Gotta makes you think: what would our gov't choose if they didnt have their hand in MS'es pocket?

    --
    1. Re:Cool ;-) IBM forked over the few milllion.... by trg83 · · Score: 1

      I don't want to nitpick about your subject line, but one of the articles I read said IBM spent $500,000 to obtain the certification.

    2. Re:Cool ;-) IBM forked over the few milllion.... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
      your security ACL's are wrote by the Spooks

      Uh-huh? And how exactly does that make you feel safer?! NSA backdoors are cetainly carefully woven into those nice ACLs...

    3. Re:Cool ;-) IBM forked over the few milllion.... by Creepy+Crawler · · Score: 2, Informative

      Oh. I just thought another article said it took 2 Million to do the first level of cert, and went up from there. IIRC, it's about 9 million for EAL7 test as it has the NSA certify all the source, compiled binaries, default configuration, and configuability. The hardware is also certified the same way, so that the OS is joined to the exact brand of chip. And EAL7 takes about 1-3 years of rigorus testing.

      EAL1 = "Whats a computer?" user tested
      EAL2 = "What's this button do?" user tested
      EAL3 = "What's this linux thingy?" user
      EAL4 = "Script kiddie tested, hacker approved"
      EAL5 = "Woah, it has NMAP!" user tested
      EAL6 = "Cool! I just transffered 2e6$ to my swiss acct" user tested
      EAL7 = "The black hat's are pissed" system secure

      --
    4. Re:Cool ;-) IBM forked over the few milllion.... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      our own MS of America

      Hey - if you're going to call America your home, learn to speak the language (English).

      i.e.: Hey, you really can't go wrong with an open source, GPL'ed operating system where drivers are written by guys from NASA (Thanks Mr. Becker), and your security ACL's are written by the Spooks (heh, thanks NoSuchAgency ;-).

      ...not to mention the poor English structure...

      Mod this to -1 Troll, but I just get tired of people hacking up the language (even though I know some crazy Brit will say the same about Americans)

    5. Re:Cool ;-) IBM forked over the few milllion.... by Creepy+Crawler · · Score: 0

      So you do agree with the statement I said? I figure if the only errors you can find are simple grammatical errors, then you agree with the content.

      After all, you even corrected my sentance. Seems you understood me.

      --
    6. Re:Cool ;-) IBM forked over the few milllion.... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I just wish you hadn't posted as an "AC" -- I was going to add you to my friends list... there is nothing I hate more than people posting an insightful comment to a message board where HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS of people will read the post... and then they don't bother to take the extra 30 seconds to make sure that it reads well.

      Ah well. Glad to see others out here also value the written language a little. (To the nerds who still don't get it: Would you put a bunch of equations on a whiteboard and then make simple math errors and say "Well, you know what I was trying to communicate?" Sure, you got your point across, but it was sloppy.)

    7. Re:Cool ;-) IBM forked over the few milllion.... by NotClever · · Score: 1
      Since it's all open source, why don't you just remove the 'back door'?

      --
      Hell, there are no rules here. We're trying to accomplish something. - Thomas Edison
    8. Re:Cool ;-) IBM forked over the few milllion.... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Most incoherent Score:5 post ever!

    9. Re:Cool ;-) IBM forked over the few milllion.... by plcurechax · · Score: 1

      IIRC, it's about 9 million for EAL7 test as it has the NSA certify all the source, compiled binaries, default configuration, and configuability. The hardware is also certified the same way, so that the OS is joined to the exact brand of chip. And EAL7 takes about 1-3 years of rigorus testing.

      Well considering no OS has ever been evaluated to EAL7, I think you're wrong. Especially since you apparently have no clue what is entailed at that level. Hint: formal proofs of security.

      I think the largest system certified to this level was a reimplementation of the first intel 4004 based calculator (add, subtract, multiple, divide).

      None are "user-tested." They have to be all evaluated at an approved independant testing lab

      The highest level completed is EAL4+
      for an Operating System.

    10. Re:Cool ;-) IBM forked over the few milllion.... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
      Did you read the "carefully woven" bit?

      I'm not talking explicit code that would send NSA your passwords in plaintext, but code that leaks information via packet timing or some other esoteric way.

      That NSA would release anything that would not help them - or god forbid, would hinder them - in some way runs contrary to the very nature of any governmental (law enforcement) agency. When was the last time the police or intelligence agencies complained that they had too many resources?

  9. Red Hat / Oracle by jmkaza · · Score: 4, Interesting

    According to this article, Red Hat and Oracle are working on gaining the same level of certification by the end of the year.

  10. Kernel or distro? by NineNine · · Score: 3, Insightful

    So what I want to know is anything with the Linux kernel good to use, or just SUSE? Call me nuts, but I thought that different distributions using the Linux kernel could be pretty damn different as far as security and stability go.

    1. Re:Kernel or distro? by DarkAurora · · Score: 1

      Probably just the SuSE distro with a specified set of settings. To make NT 4.0 "C2 secure" (what the Common Criteria specification used to be called) you had to install something that would set things up properly. I don't believe you have to do this with W2K, but there still is a specified setup that is "secure" not the OS itself.

    2. Re:Kernel or distro? by jpc · · Score: 1

      it will be for a specific version. Thats partly why it is a pain to get as by the time you do the shipped version might be obsolete. Preumably IBM and Suse will sell this specific version labelled as such, with an installer that only installs the right parts.

    3. Re:Kernel or distro? by azzy · · Score: 1

      Well if you put together a wide open distro using linux, that can be cracked by 1yr old babies, no, it won't be secure. To say a system is secure or not requires an analysis of more than just the kernel. Hence a secure label needs to be obtained on a per distro basis I suppose.

    4. Re:Kernel or distro? by afidel · · Score: 1

      Only that exact config of Suse on that hardware if it is like the C2 security certifications.

      --
      There are 4 boxes to use in the defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, ammo. Use in that order. Starting now.
    5. Re:Kernel or distro? by AKnightCowboy · · Score: 1
      So what I want to know is anything with the Linux kernel good to use, or just SUSE? Call me nuts, but I thought that different distributions using the Linux kernel could be pretty damn different as far as security and stability go.

      ObRMS: The headline and article mention Linux, therefore only the kernel is certified. If they had said GNU/Linux then they are referring to the entire operating system distribution which is comprised mainly of GNU tools. :-)

    6. Re:Kernel or distro? by jason.stover · · Score: 1

      Well, according to this NYTimes article; What's certified is SuSE running on IBM hardware.

  11. What about BSD? by dodell · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Please spare me of all the "BSD SUCKS" and "BSD IS DEAD" flames. Kthx.

    Ignoring the fact that IBM markets Linux and not BSD, why haven't corporations made genuine efforts to get it accepted in environments such as the government. The article doesn't make it clear whether or not they're talking about serving or usability.

    It seems to me that if they're talking about security and such, there's still a bit to be left desired. Additionally, SuSE is by no means the most standard (IMO, it's the most backward) distribution of Linux.

    I'd be interested in learning why more companies don't take a look into BSD environments. The security is there. The license is TOTALLY unrestrictive. It's stable, secure, well documented and well accepted (except on /.) -- why doesn't it get more corporate love?

    1. Re:What about BSD? by eer · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Because it lacks the corporate hype that Red Hat, et al, gave to Linux.

      What I'm trying to figure out is, "What's important? The kernel or the glibc?"

      Apps written to glibc will run on GNU/HURD, Linux, Lava, and other kernels, too. Technically, that's a better story. But business wise, the brand in people's mind is "Linux".

    2. Re:What about BSD? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The "TOTALLY unrestrictive" license might be part of the problem.

      If the business is trying to leverage the community to outsource part of its development work, the GPL makes more sense because any competitor that extends the code has to give it back to you too.

      The BSD license only makes sense if your business model is to add closed extensions to free software and sell it.

      If, however, your business model is to commoditize , say, operating systems and sell services, hardware, and large business applications on top of it, the GPL rules. You can donate code to the OS and not worry about proprietary forks.

      The GPL enforces a common code base to build upon. That's why with Linux, we don't have to worry about yet another iteration of the Unix wars.

    3. Re:What about BSD? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Because it's old. Not that there is anything wrong with being a well established and time tested operating system, but we are the ADD society. Linux is the shiny new operating system that caught the presses and managements attention only just recently. BSD started to go there years ago but was overwhelmed with FUD. It survived, but it has lost it's "shiny new" status. The best ideas or ways of doing things rarely win out over the ones with the most momentum/hype. Not that I'm saying BSD is inherently better than Linux - just that it doesn't have the wave of shiny newness pushing it up the executive elevator shaft.

    4. Re:What about BSD? by wawannem · · Score: 2, Insightful

      There are many reasons why BSD should be ahead of the game, but unfortunately it is not. I wish I had some real numbers, but I remember having one of my BSD zealot friends run a command and pipe it to wc to see how many packages were available in the BSD ports tree. At that time there was about 2,000. I was impressed, until:

      [wawannem@weswlinux]:/home/wawannem
      $ apt-cache dump | wc -l
      100543

      I think this is what really makes the case for linux. It is sort of a Catch-22, there is more software available for linux, so more software is created for linux.

    5. Re:What about BSD? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
      It is official; Netcraft now confirms: *BSD is dying

      One more crippling bombshell hit the already beleaguered *BSD community when IDC confirmed that *BSD market share has dropped yet again, now down to less than a fraction of 1 percent of all servers. Coming on the heels of a recent Netcraft survey which plainly states that *BSD has lost more market share, this news serves to reinforce what we've known all along. *BSD is collapsing in complete disarray, as fittingly exemplified by failing dead last in the recent Sys Admin comprehensive networking test.

      You don't need to be a Kreskin to predict *BSD's future. The hand writing is on the wall: *BSD faces a bleak future. In fact there won't be any future at all for *BSD because *BSD is dying. Things are looking very bad for *BSD. As many of us are already aware, *BSD continues to lose market share. Red ink flows like a river of blood.

      FreeBSD is the most endangered of them all, having lost 93% of its core developers. The sudden and unpleasant departures of long time FreeBSD developers Jordan Hubbard and Mike Smith only serve to underscore the point more clearly. There can no longer be any doubt: FreeBSD is dying.

      Let's keep to the facts and look at the numbers.

      OpenBSD leader Theo states that there are 7000 users of OpenBSD. How many users of NetBSD are there? Let's see. The number of OpenBSD versus NetBSD posts on Usenet is roughly in ratio of 5 to 1. Therefore there are about 7000/5 = 1400 NetBSD users. BSD/OS posts on Usenet are about half of the volume of NetBSD posts. Therefore there are about 700 users of BSD/OS. A recent article put FreeBSD at about 80 percent of the *BSD market. Therefore there are (7000+1400+700)*4 = 36400 FreeBSD users. This is consistent with the number of FreeBSD Usenet posts.

      Due to the troubles of Walnut Creek, abysmal sales and so on, FreeBSD went out of business and was taken over by BSDI who sell another troubled OS. Now BSDI is also dead, its corpse turned over to yet another charnel house.

      All major surveys show that *BSD has steadily declined in market share. *BSD is very sick and its long term survival prospects are very dim. If *BSD is to survive at all it will be among OS dilettante dabblers. *BSD continues to decay. Nothing short of a miracle could save it at this point in time. For all practical purposes, *BSD is dead.

      Fact: *BSD is dying

    6. Re:What about BSD? by elgaard · · Score: 1

      I guess the companies likes the GPL or the Linux developement model. I can see a couple of reasons.

      Suppose IBM spend a billion improving one of the free BSD kernels. Then Oracle could improve a bit more, put their DB, cluster file-system etc, on top to compete with DB2, and sell it all as closed source. I.e. Oracle would gain from IBM's investment, whereas IBM would get nothing from Oracle. Or Microsoft could use some of IBM's BSD code (they already use BSD code).

      If IBM develops some important code, they can release it for Linux under GPL and also use it in AIX/DB2/WebSphere thereby maintaing an advantage over Solaris, Oracle etc.

      There are arguments for BSD (or LGPL) as well, eg embedded systems. I am sure that companies like IBM and Oracle made an internal evaluation of all this that would be an interesting to read.

    7. Re:What about BSD? by scrytch · · Score: 1

      I'd be interested in learning why more companies don't take a look into BSD environments. The security is there. The license is TOTALLY unrestrictive. It's stable, secure, well documented and well accepted (except on /.) -- why doesn't it get more corporate love?

      Because they just use it. I'd say most of the firewall appliances out there run some form of BSD and not Linux, for example. It's just invisible. The BSD people are out to produce a good OS, so such "successes" are simply business as usual and not some domino in the chain leading to Eventual World Domination.

      BSD continues on whether or not a bunch of advocates claim it's dead. It just does so in more invisible ways than you know.

      --
      I've finally had it: until slashdot gets article moderation, I am not coming back.
    8. Re:What about BSD? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The only BSD which would have an interest in getting certified would be BSD-OS, and I don't see them falling over $500,000 bundles of cash.

    9. Re:What about BSD? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Alright then, I'll bite. If it's invisible, how can you be so certain that it's being used? Do you have any evidence to document the use of any of the BSD's in these firewall devices that you're mentioning? If you did then you'd technically have lied on your former point; on the latter if you do.

    10. Re:What about BSD? by adilsonoliveira · · Score: 1

      While I disagree with BSD license, where one can get what wants without give anything back, I agree that *BSD (specialy, in my opinion, OpenBSD and FreeBSD) is a hell of a good product. I think the problem is pure marketing and atitude. GNU/Linux was able to get a little media attention some time ago, maybe because the kernel was created by a single man from an exotic and cold place, I don't know and that started the snowball. The more people talk about it the more other people talk and so on. About the atitude part, maybe I'm wrong but most of BSDers I found are proud about been "counter-culture". One actualy told me that linux was "sold out" to the Big Corps. Maybe that's the problem.

      --
      Faith can move mountains. I prefer dynamite.
    11. Re:What about BSD? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I agree. I wish the government would take a serious look at, say, OpenBSD for example, and maybe even donate a couple of bucks to them. I've had my rounds with OpenBSD, and it's straight out damn secure.

      I don't see why most /. people hate *BSD. It's a great and rock solid system, I'm using FreeBSD myself, in addition to Redhat Linux and Windows XP.

    12. Re:What about BSD? by CableModemSniper · · Score: 2, Informative

      well after actually looking at the output of apt-cache dump, I can say with some authority that number is way off. It not only lists packages but dependencies. Let's try it like this: apt-cache dump | grep "^Package: " | wc -l Ah 16701. Thats a much more realistic number. Note: I'm running unstable and I've got a couple of unofficial sources in my sources.list but 16701 is still no where near 100543 or the 147095 I get if I use your command. Also you got to consider that many of the packages are the same with slightly different compile options. With a ports tree, you set those compile options yourself. I will say that there is a difference, I just don't think that it is as large as the the parent poster implies.

      --
      Why not fork?
    13. Re:What about BSD? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yeah! If the DoD would give OpenBSD a two million dollar grant, that would be great!

    14. Re:What about BSD? by jellomizer · · Score: 1

      Well BSD is not dead and it wont die anytime soon. It is a fine OS very stable and secure. But it doesn't have industry backing like Linux does. Especially for government they need someone to blame. That is why IBM had to get the certification. If something happened the installed Linux systems by IBM they call IBM to fix it or pay for damages. With BSD there is no real point of contact for any problem that may occur. I feel that most large companies are afraid to use BSD because it is still Unix. And microsoft has put the fear into many companies harts about Unix. Linux is not Unix so there is less of a fear issue with it.
      As well as for features BSD lately has been the second receiver of linux success. An application is made for linux then ported to BSD. So most of the application are designed for Linux first and BSD second. Also BSD doesnt have the polish the Linux does. They still remind me of the old Slackware linux distribution. Although they have their strengths and ability they still feel like using the old system. Which makes people afraid to use. It is not about technology it is about people. And it always has been.

      --
      If something is so important that you feel the need to post it on the internet... It probably isn't that important.
    15. Re:What about BSD? by Lussarn · · Score: 1

      An important aspect probably is copyright. With Linux/GPL SGI can "donate" XFS to the kernel and still have a strong copyright on that particular code. If they where to donate code to BSD using the BSD licence they would essentially give up the copyright to the code. Sun could implement it into Solaris for free. SGI make no cash. If they only donate the code as GPL they can still sell it for a profit to Sun. This way GPLd code can get lots of new quailty code fast from strong companies.

      A commersial aspect of th GPL that don't get much attention.

      Yes, I know Sun isn't licencing XFS (to stop the ./ nitpickers)

    16. Re:What about BSD? by wawannem · · Score: 2, Interesting

      You're right... When I took a quick look at the number, I saw ten thousand, which seemed realistic enough that I just went ahead and posted it. Taking a second look, I see that it is one hundred thousand, which is ridiculously high. Sorry about that, and thanks for pointing it out without a serious flaming ;)

      Using your updated command, I see that on a testing machine, there are about 14,000 packages available. For this little test to be fair, we need a BSD person to do something similar. I still believe the notion of my original post is correct though. The amount of available software is the biggest factor in most choices these days.

      Cheers!

    17. Re:What about BSD? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      BSD is dying.

    18. Re:What about BSD? by plcurechax · · Score: 1


      Ignoring the fact that IBM markets Linux and not BSD, why haven't corporations made genuine efforts to get it accepted in environments such as the government. The article doesn't make it clear whether or not they're talking about serving or usability.


      Because no one (e.g. BSDi) has spent the money to prepare the documentation, and pay for the independant evaluation from an approved lab.

    19. Re:What about BSD? by pyros · · Score: 1
      If IBM develops some important code, they can release it for Linux under GPL and also use it in AIX/DB2/WebSphere thereby maintaing an advantage over Solaris, Oracle etc.


      If IBM distributes it, they must make the source available to the people they distribute it too. so Sun, Oracle, etc. could buy a copy, get the source, and implement the ideas in their own products. The advantage is that Sun, Oracle, etc have to then disitribute their own modifications to IBM's, which IBM could then incorporate, ad nauseum.

      Not sure if that's what you were trying to say, as you seem to understand the basic difference between the two.

    20. Re:What about BSD? by elgaard · · Score: 1

      Yes, Sun, Oracle etccan implement the same ideas in their own products. But they cannot reuse the code if it is GPL.

      If they just implement the same ideas, they do not have to distribute their modifications to IBM.

    21. Re:What about BSD? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Checkpoint firewalls are FreeBSD, and there are a number of other network appliances that run on BSD, confirmed by the companies in question. BSD just *is* - the original poster was right, it just keeps going and companies use it and it's not really trying to be "famous". It just works.

    22. Re:What about BSD? by dodell · · Score: 1

      Using a similar command in FreeBSD, I get this:

      $ find /usr/ports -type d -maxdepth 2 | wc -l
      9194 :)

      It's not a lot, but it's not a little either :)

    23. Re:What about BSD? by gellenburg · · Score: 1

      I had to stop meta-moderaing when I came to your original post because I just had to comment here.

      What most Linux users fail to recognize is that FreeBSD is able to run just about any Linux x86 app *natively*, so saying that FreeBSD doesn't have as many apps as Linux is kind of a misnomer, since FreeBSD has all of its apps (native ports what have you) plus the myriad of Linux-specific apps which are out there.

  12. It must really be secure then... by Dot.Com.CEO · · Score: 4, Interesting

    I mean, look at all the other level 4 assurance level OSs here . Of course, Windows 2k has had this certification since last year AND Microsoft has prepared a nice guide for ensuring compliance to the common criteria guides for the Windows Sysadmin. I'm very glad that Linux will be able to compete with Windows on a bureaucratic level as well as on technical merit, but perhaps there is a slight overreacction from the part of the /. editors?

    --
    Mother is the best bet and don't let Satan draw you too fast.
    1. Re:It must really be secure then... by Mr+Bill · · Score: 5, Funny
      Microsoft has prepared a nice guide for ensuring compliance to the common criteria guides for the Windows Sysadmin

      Does it include removing the Ethernet card from the system???

    2. Re:It must really be secure then... by drinkypoo · · Score: 1
      I thought all you had to do was unplug it from the network and make sure there are no network or phone connections within thirty feet, nor within the same room (IE, not separated from a door which closes itself.)

      When I did technical support for Tivoli Systems we had one fun customer using TME10 inside some glass room for some unspecified-purpose collection of computers and when they called for support you had one guy standing in the doorway holding the door open and talking on the phone, and another guy sitting in this room typing. Given that this was a Unix installation (The NT product was, shall we say, immature at the time) this led to a lot of really entertaining communication of punctuation. Luckily these guys were pretty hip Unix admins.

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
  13. Linux in Government by Sogol · · Score: 5, Interesting

    I'm a sysadmin for a large government data center. We've been using Linux in production for years, and we always purchase boxed distributions, even some preconfigured(!) machines from Dell. Government regulations do, however, prevent me from ordering Windex and Duster. These are considered janitorial supplies, and there is no justification in Information Systems procuring these items. So frankly, I'm not sure what all the fuss is about. Things look a lot different on the ground.

    1. Re:Linux in Government by IceAgeComing · · Score: 1

      I'm a research programmer working as a contractor for the government, and govt engineers in my research lab are sick of patching their Windows machines. They all have to be poked and prodded to make sure the automatic patches got installed right. It happens on at least a weekly basis.

      We're very close to doing away with Windows and switching to Linux with OpenOffice. We'll also need some solution for talking with the USAF Exchange Server.

      UNIX is spoken here because we've got a lot of EE's/ME's employed to perform heavy number crunching on physical simulations. Most long runs are performed on SGI and Linux boxen.

    2. Re:Linux in Government by Thing+1 · · Score: 1
      Wow, those bureaucrats in procurement are amazing. Seems to me that Windex would be considered a "maintenance" item; at the very least to keep the screens readable. I'm not familiar with Duster but it also sounds like something that would fall under maintenance (keeping dust out of the systems prolongs their lives).

      I'm sure you've had these same thoughts, I'm just amazed that whoever is in charge of signing off on your purchases hasn't.

      --
      I feel fantastic, and I'm still alive.
    3. Re:Linux in Government by jonhuang · · Score: 1

      Doesn't the ammonia in windex strip off the anti-reflective coating on monitors?

    4. Re:Linux in Government by AstroDrabb · · Score: 1

      At work I use Ximian's Evolution with Ximians Connector to work with an Exchange 2003 server. It works great and only costs $69. www.ximian.com I am trying to get the admins to move to a REAL IMAP server, until then, Ximian Connector does the job well.

      --
      If Tyranny and Oppression come to this land,
      it will be in the guise of fighting a foreign enemy. -James Madison
  14. Safe for medical storage info ? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Interesting

    Does this mean that it is safe/legal to use linux on a machine used to store medical information, in compliance with HIPPA and other mandated privacy policies ?

    1. Re:Safe for medical storage info ? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Nope.

      HIPPA mandates that only certain groups (doctors, medicaid) can view such data, and sets up a ton of hoops for other people to view or know it, even with your approval. It says virtually nothing about how they must store it.

      It's a ridiculous law. I work with software for EMT's, fire stations and cops, and basically, if you have a heart attack and call an ambulance, they cannot keep any record of it.

      They also cannot know if you're allergic to penicillin, this is your third heart attack, have AIDS, etc.. If they remember you from your last heart attack, they're in violation of the law.

  15. Over-hype - not highest rating possible by eer · · Score: 5, Informative

    The EAL2+ assurance level achieved is NOT the highest rating possible by a long, long shot - it's actually close to the lowest. But, it's a great start.

    IBM and SuSE say they're working on a higher level CAPP evaluation, which roughly equates to the old C2 TCSEC criteria.

    1. Re:Over-hype - not highest rating possible by swillden · · Score: 2, Insightful

      The EAL2+ assurance level achieved is NOT the highest rating possible by a long, long shot - it's actually close to the lowest

      Yep. I wonder if the "highest possible" hyperbole didn't come out of some (clueful) statement about how this may be the highest common criteria rating possible for a Linux system to a (clueless) reporter, who just fixated on the "highest possible" part.

      Whichever, it may be true that Linux can't get higher CC ratings because of the nature of the development process. CC ratings beyond level 2 demand more and more tightly controlled and regimented design and development processes. At the highest level (EAL7), you basically have to apply formal proofs of correctness to a very thoroughly vetted design, as well as to perform extremely careful management of all of the design documentation and code so that you can be sure it's not tampered with.

      It *might* be possible for Linux to get a level 3 rating, but it would be very, very expensive, since that would require analysis and documentation of much more of the system design (CC doesn't believe in "the code is the documentation"), so that the implementation can be methodically verified.

      This doesn't mean that Linux can't be or isn't secure, it just means that its development process is incompatible with the assumptions underlying Common Criteria. Basically, CC assumes that security can only be achieved through very methodical, formal, controlled development processes, with intense security-focused scrutiny applied at each step. The OSS world believes there's another way, the "many eyes make all bugs shallow" approach.

      The underlying assumptions of the two approaches are interesting to me. CC presumes that it's possible to close all of the security holes during design and development, ensuring that the resulting system is airtight. The OSS approach presumes that bugs happen, that security is an arms race between the white hats and the black hats, and that the way to win it is to make sure that you recruit as many white hats as possible and give them complete access.

      In both cases, the software will inevitably contain exploitable security flaws. CC aims to make them rare and hard to find (particularly since the source will probably not be published), OSS aims to fix them faster than they can be exploited. The result is that EAL7 software probably contains a few hard-to-exploit but very long-lived defects, whereas OSS contains many more defects with much shorter lifespans.

      The common criteria specifications were defined before the security benefits of open source were understood, and therefore don't consider them at all. I think that after a few more years of experience CC needs to be revisited and revised in light of this new information. The very highest security rating should probably only go to software that utilizes both approaches.

      --
      Note to ACs: I usually delete AC replies without reading them. If you want to talk to me, log in.
    2. Re:Over-hype - not highest rating possible by snopes · · Score: 1

      Great analysis and explanation. I think you're dead on with the OSS - CC conflict.

      Here's a question though (since you seem to have a strong grasp on EAL defs): What about an effort where say the NSA SELinux group or this "Red Team" idea that came up around here recently went back through and verified all code? This doesn't get around design requirements, but it might address many of the documentation issues, right? How would you guess such an effort might affect the EAL rating of a specific linux distribution?

    3. Re:Over-hype - not highest rating possible by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
      The result is that EAL7 software probably contains a few hard-to-exploit but very long-lived defects

      Do you even know what a formal proof is?
    4. Re:Over-hype - not highest rating possible by IWannaBeAnAC · · Score: 1
      Formal proof is irrelevant when you include implementation bugs, side-channel attacks and so on.

      "Formal proof" only applies to the mathematical approximation of the system, and ignores the details of the hardware, not to mention programmers that can make mistakes. Does EAL7 mean anything if a cosmic ray burst hits the CPU?

      And all this ignores the fact that most systems complex enough to be interesting are not amenable to formal proof. If that means that such systems cannot get EAL7, then it simply means EAL7 is itself not very interesting.

    5. Re:Over-hype - not highest rating possible by swillden · · Score: 1

      Do you even know what a formal proof is?

      Yes. But anyone who thinks that formal proofs of correctness can eliminate all bugs, much less all security holes, is not living in the real world. Formal proofs of correctness can only verify that the code correctly implements the design, which correctly implement the requirements. They don't help one bit with assuring that the requirements define a secure system, or that the formalization of the requirements was done correctly. They also don't do anything about eliminating unanticipated types of attacks.

      --
      Note to ACs: I usually delete AC replies without reading them. If you want to talk to me, log in.
    6. Re:Over-hype - not highest rating possible by Sivaram_Velauthapill · · Score: 1

      But anyone who thinks that formal proofs of correctness can eliminate all bugs, much less all security holes, is not living in the real world.

      I don't think anyone is expecting a formal proof to ensure that a system will be perfect. Rather, they use it ot minimize the problems them will run into. It might not be perfect but it is better than not having it. This whole process is very expensive but I can see why governments would do it. At least it gives an assurance of the software. For commercial stuff, none of this matters since security isn't that important (often patches are deployed even if they are too late, customers really don't have much power (it costs too much to organize and get lawyers) and in the worst case violations are just swept under the carpet). But for the government it can be important. Imagine if some some hostile agent (can be local or foreign) manages to attack the systems that store or manage, say the tax records or pension plans. Of course, it gets even worse for military institutions. And the worst is for the evil agencies themselves (ie. CIA, FSB, CSIS, etc)...

      It isn't perfect (some guy can come and blow up the building which can physically damage the systems) but at least with some sort of certification system, you can sure that what you have is better than the choices...

      --
      Sivaram Velauthapillai
      Seeking the meaning of life... @slashdot of all places ;)
    7. Re:Over-hype - not highest rating possible by swillden · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Of course formal validation is valuable; sorry if I appeared to imply that it's not. The AC's question seemed to be saying that formal methods would eliminate vulnerabilities completely, which they will not.

      It's also worth noting that the OSS patch-treadmill approach is completely inapplicable in some environments -- those where patches aren't feasible. I work on smart card systems for a living, and that's the situation for smart card operating system code. You can only patch it by replacing the cards, and that is often cost-prohibitive. In those environments, as well as the very high-security environments that you mention, rapid discovery and patching doesn't work, so formal methods and extreme attention to detail are the only option. They only take you so far (*everything* only takes you so far) but the name of the game is "mitigate what risks you can, bound the rest and build backup plans".

      The patch treadmill approach is somewhat more resilient from a security standpoint, because in a formal system, when you find a defect the process of fixing it has to be similarly formal, which means complex and time-consuming, and it's likely that there isn't a good mechanism in place for delivering updates. However, the patch treadmill approach is also more likely to see successful penetrations in the short term.

      At the end of the day, there are places for both approaches, and places for a combined approach as well.

      at least with some sort of certification system, you can sure that what you have is better than the choices...

      I wouldn't go quite that far. With the certification system, you can be sure that the software has passed the required verification tests. That tells you something valuable about the system, but it doesn't really tell you anything about the alternatives, unless they've also been tested. Still, as long as you understand what it is and is not, certification is definitely worthwhile.

      --
      Note to ACs: I usually delete AC replies without reading them. If you want to talk to me, log in.
    8. Re:Over-hype - not highest rating possible by RabidStoat · · Score: 1
      Just as an aside to the above comment. I've developed a few UKL5/6 and E6 systems under the UKSEC and ITSEC schemes respectively very roughly equivalent to EAL6/7.

      Generally at this level the functionality of the system is so minimal that they aren't particularily interesting to watch but fun to develop. The whole development of these systems does mean you need really rigorous standards and processes to make sure you do all the work required by the evaluation, this has a very beneficial side effect that, on one particular system, we never had a customer reported bug in 8/9 years of constant use.

      Although initially (very) expensive to develop, purchase and support due to the high skill level required you do end up with way above average quality.

      I'm always very skeptical about the real value of evaluations at levels below the discretionary/mandatory access control boundary as you tend to be retrofitting security into an existing system and that horse has been flogged enough here and elsewhere. You only really start to get confidence in the overall security of the product at the higher levels where you tend to be developing from scratch and have more money/resource available to the development process.

    9. Re:Over-hype - not highest rating possible by swillden · · Score: 1

      The whole development of these systems does mean you need really rigorous standards and processes to make sure you do all the work required by the evaluation, this has a very beneficial side effect that, on one particular system, we never had a customer reported bug in 8/9 years of constant use.

      Very high-quality code can be developed with enough care and enough cash. The software on the space shuttle is a common example. Still, it's worth pointing out that (as I'm sure you know) the absence of customer bug reports doesn't mean that bugs don't exist, or even that they weren't found. It just means that the bugs are few enough and sufficiently low-impact that no one was bothered by them. Of course, it's also possible that there are none, but it's not really possible to know.

      As an aside, are you normally some kind of rabid troll? It's not often I come across a reasonable post at -1.

      --
      Note to ACs: I usually delete AC replies without reading them. If you want to talk to me, log in.
    10. Re:Over-hype - not highest rating possible by RabidStoat · · Score: 1
      Very high-quality code can be developed with enough care and enough cash. The software on the space shuttle is a common example. Still, it's worth pointing out that (as I'm sure you know) the absence of customer bug reports doesn't mean that bugs don't exist, or even that they weren't found. It just means that the bugs are few enough and sufficiently low-impact that no one was bothered by them.

      Indeed you are absolutely right, I think I was just trying to point out that there are real, I'd say tangible benefits, to going through the whole evaluation process and getting a certification of whatever type.

      Besides, I have this fear that due to pressure on development teams to get products to market, even in the usually more protected atmosphere of government/military systems, that decisions and requirements to enter and just as importantly actually complete evaluations are being removed. In the long term this can only damage the efforts to improve the emphasis that should be given to make products demonstrably secure and allow security and evaluations to be viewed as an expensive luxury by the people holding the purse strings.

      As an aside, are you normally some kind of rabid troll? It's not often I come across a reasonable post at -1.

      heh, no, I just tend to only get worked up enough to post when evaluations get mentioned and some inconsiderate and clearly misinformed individuals had already nicked my more common nicks.

    11. Re:Over-hype - not highest rating possible by swillden · · Score: 1

      Sounds like we're in complete agreement as to both the value and the cost of certifications and the high-quality development processes requried to obtain them.

      heh, no, I just tend to only get worked up enough to post when evaluations get mentioned and some inconsiderate and clearly misinformed individuals had already nicked my more common nicks.

      And I just realized why you show up as -1 to me... apparently I got irritated sometime and set my "new user" adjustment to -2, so your post is actually at 1, but I see it as -1 because your account is relatively young. I'd completely forgotten about that.

      --
      Note to ACs: I usually delete AC replies without reading them. If you want to talk to me, log in.
    12. Re:Over-hype - not highest rating possible by eer · · Score: 1

      I agree...and have started using the analogy that the Common Criteria approach is about starting out well and trying not to get sick...while the OSS approach is like sending your kid to public schools where they're exposed to everything and develop a resistance over time as they (patch and test) get well each time.

      Get well fast (OSS) or don't get sick (CC). You need both.

      The value in OSS isn't that it's free (it's not, as in beer) but that it's transparent.

  16. Very good news... by IWorkForMorons · · Score: 1

    ...but what does it mean in the end? Nothing at all, since MS is branded onto the forearms and foreheads of most politicians? Or will Linux become the next tool for monitoring it's citizens? Hopefully neither. Hopefully, instead, big businesses like Red Hat and Suse(through IBM) will begin lobbying the government with the same strength and voracity that MS and others have been for years. Then we can begin to see some real change, even if we have to use some of the same slimy tactics.

  17. simple question for someone in the know... by jeffy124 · · Score: 2

    what kind of items are covered in the Common Criteria?

    --
    The One Rule Of Chess You'll Ever Need: Don't play someone who carries a kit in their bookbag.
    1. Re:simple question for someone in the know... by stratjakt · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Why, just a bunch of bullshit rhetoric.

      What, you thought government certifications mean something?

      It's just beurocracy. If it means anything, it means the OS exists. Keeps them from buying too much vaporware.

      --
      I don't need no instructions to know how to rock!!!!
  18. <3 IBM by mcgroarty · · Score: 1

    Suddenly I'm just starting to love IBM more and more these days :-)

  19. *Which* Linux is certified, actually? by Urkki · · Score: 1
    Article quote: "International Business Machines Corp. and Linux distributor SuSE said on Tuesday that they received the highest level of security evaluation used by governments when deciding to use software in their organizations."

    So does that mean that a specific version of Suse is certified, and nothing else? So what about Red Hat etc? Or future Suse versions? I presume they'd have to get another certification (probably easier after Suse got the 1st one, but anyway).

    1. Re:*Which* Linux is certified, actually? by arivanov · · Score: 1

      Specific version of SuSe at a specific patch level with specific software running on specific hardware with a specific network configuration.

      --
      Baker's Law: Misery no longer loves company. Nowadays it insists on it
      http://www.sigsegv.cx/
  20. gov't applications by avageek · · Score: 1

    first off, the certification validates that they can consider this spacific distro of linux on certain IBM machines for *secret* uses. They certainly could have (and most likely have) used linux on other types of applications and such, but they couldn't say, set up a linux box on a secret LAN or mission critical applications.

    1. Re:gov't applications by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      first off, the certification validates that they can consider this spacific distro of linux on certain IBM machines for *secret* uses. They certainly could have (and most likely have) used linux on other types of applications and such, but they couldn't say, set up a linux box on a secret LAN or mission critical applications.

      That is not true. As long as the box is on a "Closed" lan (not connected anywhere outside of a lab), and the government security authority signed off on it, it was entirely permissible. I know, we did it for several years where I used to work (a government contractor).

  21. CC4Linux by eb676324be5598948888 · · Score: 1

    EAL2 != Security
    CC EAL<n>
    I would like to have EAL5 or better...

  22. Wrong. Wrong wrong wrong... by kiwimate · · Score: 4, Informative

    IBM has gotten Linux certified

    Correction -- they got SuSE Linux certified. This only applies to SuSE. Incidentally, it cost them $500,000.

    Linux got the highest rating possible

    No it didn't. FUD. According to this story...

    Linux was certified as providing only "low to moderate" security, compared with the same group's certification as "moderate to high" last year of the security of Microsoft's Windows 2000 software. Supporters said Linux software was under testing for better-security ratings.

    In fact, I'd suggest people look at the story in the Inquirer linked above -- it gives a little more information as well as some light commentary.

    1. Re:Wrong. Wrong wrong wrong... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      > Linux got the highest rating possible

      No it didn't. FUD


      Is "FUD" the new "fnord", or some sort of interjection to mean "golly"? Learn the term properly for crissakes.

    2. Re:Wrong. Wrong wrong wrong... by AmishSlayer · · Score: 3, Insightful

      No it didn't. FUD. According to

      FUD = Fear, Uncertainty, and Doubt

      Overexageration is not FUD. It may be inaccurate or perhaps just plain wrong, but it is not FUD.

  23. Suse running on IBM by aplank · · Score: 0

    The article seems to imply that only Linux running on IBM computers and SuSE Linux have been certified. Is the certification *any* distro running on IBM and SuSE running on *any* computer or is it just SuSE running on IBM?

  24. NOT highest possible rating sez CNN by bourne · · Score: 3, Informative
    CNN has a different version of the story:

    Linux was certified as providing only "low to moderate" security, compared with the same group's certification as "moderate to high" last year of the security of Microsoft's Windows 2000 software. Supporters said Linux software, whose popular mascot is a penguin, was under testing for better-security ratings.

    I would guess that IBM wanted to go for the faster, cheaper rating first and wait to get it certified higher. Common Criteria testing is expensive and time-consuming. It isn't a statement on Linux, it says more about how much got spent this time around.

    1. Re:NOT highest possible rating sez CNN by Florian+Weimer · · Score: 1

      I would guess that IBM wanted to go for the faster, cheaper rating first and wait to get it certified higher.

      Basically, they had no choice. I don't know about EAL3, but EAL4 requires features which are only implemented as exeperimental kernel patches.

      (The official Linux versions are far beyond NT 3.1 as far as access control etc. is concerned.)

  25. windows certifications by non · · Score: 4, Informative

    if you're curious about some of the history of microsoft and the certication of windows for government work, click here, and look elsewhere for the story of ed curry. its been linked to here on slashdot before.

    if you want to know more about what the eal4 certification that windows 2000 sp3 currently has, click here.

    --
    ...vividly encapsulates that post-Watergate/pre-punk/coked-up moment when you could trust no one, least of all yourself.
  26. Playing D.A. here.... by tomstdenis · · Score: 2, Interesting

    I'm not sure that the government adopting OSS is such a good idea. I mean when something doesn't work who is held accountable? Linus? Alan? ...?

    At least with proprietary technology there is the promise of accoutability [*] in the product.

    [*] Yes I know this would mean Microsoft. DA damnit!

    Tom

    --
    Someday, I'll have a real sig.
    1. Re:Playing D.A. here.... by EvilTwinSkippy · · Score: 2, Insightful
      Accountabilty? Bullshit. Try "wall tossing". Most EULA's indemnify the vendor from legal action. All you end up with is the ability to blame someone else.

      That isn't accountability. It's accounting. A real man admits he was wrong, and works to fix it. A coward insists the world is at fault, and ducks the problem entirely.

      This world was not built by cowards. Though they have done their share of destroying great empires, both political, intellectual, and capital.

      --
      "Learning is not compulsory... neither is survival."
      --Dr.W.Edwards Deming
    2. Re:Playing D.A. here.... by lightcycle · · Score: 1

      I suppose SuSE, RedHat or whoever sold linux to said government would be responsible for things working

      --

      The stars that shine and the stars that shrink
      in the face of stagnation the water runs before your eyes
    3. Re:Playing D.A. here.... by Enrico+Pulatzo · · Score: 1

      The only accountability you have with most commercial EULAs is the market. If the market decides the feature needs to be fixed, it'll be fixed. Of course, key players often define the market--I'm sure the government would fits in this category.

    4. Re:Playing D.A. here.... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      At least with proprietary technology there is the promise of accoutability [*] in the product.

      No there isn't.

    5. Re:Playing D.A. here.... by shibashaba · · Score: 1

      Why do people keep acting like this is a problem. Whoever sold it to you is accountable just like any other product. Why is IBM selling linux any different than IBM selling AIX?? And theres plenty of areas of the government where I'm sure the people are more than competent enough to pick what software they use and deal with it themselves if theres a problem.

      --
      ---------- Open Source is capitalism applied to IP.
    6. Re:Playing D.A. here.... by Le+Marteau · · Score: 1

      At least with proprietary technology there is the promise of accoutability [*] in the product.

      LOL! Accountability, to Microsoft, is having script monkeys read off the answers to questions, or if the customer REALLY wants to hold Microsoft accountable, they MIGHT even get Microsoft to refund what you paid for the software on the hacked machine. Woo hoo! I can see it now.

      "Er, Boss, we got hacked last night."

      "WHAT!!! WHAT ARE YOU GOING TO DO ABOUT IT!?!?!? WHOSE NECKTIE CAN I GRAB?"

      "Er, well, Microsoft's going to send us a check for tree fitty."

      --
      Mod down people who tell people how to mod in their sigs
    7. Re:Playing D.A. here.... by Brad+Mace · · Score: 1

      It really would be sad if having someone to blame was more important than having good software. Besides, if Microsoft was really accountable, some of this shit would have been *fixed* by now.

    8. Re:Playing D.A. here.... by Sivaram_Velauthapill · · Score: 1

      Right now, the whole software industry (and to some extent the computer industry) is not accountable for anything it does. You can buy a piece of software and it can corrupt all your financial statements that you had over the last 20 years and you wouldn't have much recourse. So whether something is commercial or not is irrlevant. Besides, by using the software, often you have to agree to no warranty, damages, etc.

      The only argument that you can make against open-source software is that some hostile agent can insert code into the system. For instance, how do you know that Russian (for example) agents aren't inserting malicious code into some component of Linux or some open-source software. Sure, the key developers will have to approve it but I suspect that the controlling mechanisms are more lax... Having said this, you can make the counter-argument that having the code open means that others can inspect it so the chances of malicious code insertion is low. This depends on which side of the fence you sit on. Which is more likely: an agent successfully inserting malicious code into open-source software without anyone noticing, or an agent infiltrating Microsoft (for example) and rising to a key development position?

      --
      Sivaram Velauthapillai
      Seeking the meaning of life... @slashdot of all places ;)
    9. Re:Playing D.A. here.... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      As a district attourney, you must know that canning the manham is fucking disgusting. Knock it the fuck off already!

  27. Linux got the highest rating possible. by 514x0r · · Score: 1

    is it too late for the dept. of homeland surveillance to switch or are they satisfied with the security that can be broken by a midi file?

    what did m$ get on this anyways?

    --

    !(^((ri)|(mp))aa$)
    1. Re:Linux got the highest rating possible. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The person who posted the story was wrong. This specific installation of Linux achieved an EAL2 rating, which is low-to-middle ground.

      Windows 2000 has an EAL4 rating, the highest possible rating that a commercial product can achieve. (And yes, they did achieve it with the network cable plugged in.)

  28. Like this made any difference before? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Informative

    I know the agency I work at follows these ridiculous regulations only when they fall in line with what they were planning on purchasing anyway. For example, most of the security products we use are not FIPS 140-1 compliant anyway. Who cares?

  29. Secure enough to persuade your PHB. by aug24 · · Score: 2, Informative
    I think the biggest aspect of this news is not that Linux is especially secure, but that it is good enough to get a security classification.

    This will carry a lot of weight to any argument with a PHB or similar.

    J.

    --
    You're only jealous cos the little penguins are talking to me.
  30. Won't they need to re-cert constantly ?? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Being that Linux is ever evolving and in a constant state of change, wouldn't that mean constant recertification ?

  31. CmdrTaco's real name is Jayson Blair by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Interesting

    SuSE got the lowest possible passing rating, not the highest.

    As someone else mentioned, IBM probrably went for the cheapest testing first.

    But that does not change the fact that you deliberately told an untruth.

  32. Are there any secure Os's out there? by sirrube · · Score: 3, Interesting

    If Linux only got Low2Moderate - and Windows2k got Moderate2High. Are there any off the shelf OS's that rank equal or better to win2k or is Windows2k the only one out there? Thinking of all the security breaches in Windows2k a Low2Moderate score does not impress me nor does Microsoft when it comes to Security.

    1. Re:Are there any secure Os's out there? by dema · · Score: 4, Funny

      Mac OS X.....duh!

      When was the last time someone made a virus for a mac?

      Security By Lack Of Popularity they call it. (:

    2. Re:Are there any secure Os's out there? by Osrin · · Score: 1

      not off the shelf, products that gain higher ratings tend to be bespoke developments for very secure systems... thinks missile guidance and command & control.

    3. Re:Are there any secure Os's out there? by SmallFurryCreature · · Score: 4, Insightful
      ehm slight failure on youre part of understanding how it was tested.

      Linux was tested for test "low and moderate" security and passed. It was not tested for anything higher so we don't now if it would have failed those.

      The tests costs lots of money and time, so you start at the bottom and work youre way up. It is like say a soccer team passing the semi-finals, you don't then say, oh that means they missed the finals? No that is yet to come.

      --

      MMO Quests are like orgasms:

      You may solo them, I prefer them in a group.

    4. Re:Are there any secure Os's out there? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Trusted Solaris is about the most secure commercial grade OS out there. It's the de-facto standard for most secure OS installations in the Government. (check out www.sun.com)

    5. Re:Are there any secure Os's out there? by MarcQuadra · · Score: 1

      It's not just lack of popularity, the Mac OS Classic binary format was inherently more secure than win32 code, and AFAIK OSX uses ELF, like Linux, which is also much more secure by it's own nature. A lot of virii place code into 'unused' areas of binary files, but the 'tighter' the binary the less likely they are able to find a place to inject.

      --
      "Sometimes, I think Trent just needs a cup of hot chocolate and a blankie." -Tori Amos on Nine Inch Nails
    6. Re:Are there any secure Os's out there? by RabidStoat · · Score: 1

      There are, but they are expensive. There are much more secure and evaluated versions of UNIX floating around. GEMSOS is an A1 evaluated "operating system". Technically it is an A1 M-component of the TNI (Red Book) and is a reference monitor rather than an operating system, but you can develop useful applications on it and get extreme security underneath you for "free". HFSI used to have some offerings and still sell them for running very high assurance mail gateways on. Getronics have their IPR now I think.

      The cost is the killer. I know how much time and money Gemini/NCSC (GEMSOS) spent evaluating their system and it's scary. We spent a huge amount of money developing and evaluating our applications on top of it and even that was with the benefit of the A1 evaluation report as the basis of our system.

      In the good old days security was more important than useability, but to be honest none of the really secure systems are easy to manage, integrate or maintain so have become dinosaurs.

  33. omg BSD sux lol by Ralp · · Score: 0, Troll

    more liek BSOD am i rite??

    P.S. a/s/l?

  34. Alone on Earth by i-neo · · Score: 1
    government can consider Linux

    As often, article writers are a bit egocentrics. Did you know there are several governments in here ?

    To the article author: I give you 1 troll point :)
    1. Re:Alone on Earth by yerricde · · Score: 1

      Did you know there are several governments in here ?

      Other than United States Inc. and the government of the State of California, where Slashdot's parent VA Software is headquartered?

      And what makes you think other national governments don't recognize Common Criteria certifications?

      --
      Will I retire or break 10K?
  35. Re:3 IBM by LucidityZero · · Score: 1
    Suddenly I'm just starting to love IBM more and more these days :-)

    Isn't it interesting how in slightly over a decade, IBM has gone from being sworn enemy of geeks all over the world, to best ally?

    What will we be thinking about Microsoft in 10 or 15 years?

    --
    Sig.i>
  36. Some more info from SuSE by kiwimate · · Score: 1

    Their press release.

    From that release...

    SuSE Linux Enterprise Server 8 has achieved Common Criteria Security running on IBM eServer xSeries.

  37. High and higher by Rutje · · Score: 4, Funny

    Linux got the highest rating possible

    The highest rating for linux is Bill Gates using it (secretly at home)!

    --

    I want my karma, and I want it now!
    1. Re:High and higher by Thing+1 · · Score: 1
      The highest rating for linux is Bill Gates using it (secretly at home)!

      Well, check out Netcraft for BillGates.com...

      OS: Linux
      Server: Apache/1.3.27 (Unix) (Red-Hat/Linux) mod_ssl/2.8.12 OpenSSL/0.9.6b DAV/1.0.3 PHP/4.1.2 mod_perl/1.26 Last changed: 17-Jul-2003
      IP address: 69.57.132.82
      Netblock Owner: American Registry for Internet Numbers
      (I know, I know it's not really his domain...)
      --
      I feel fantastic, and I'm still alive.
    2. Re:High and higher by drinkypoo · · Score: 2, Funny

      Bill Gates doesn't need to run Linux, he knows the value for the secret registry tree to instruct Windows not to crash.

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
  38. Re:In Mother Russia ... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    More like....

    In Soviet Russia... (Score: -100, Tired old joke that none likes)

    SECURITY clinches YOU!!

  39. The obligatory flamebait defending the facts by Drestin · · Score: 3, Insightful
    Windows has had a higher level rating for over a year now. There are nice Word DOCs available to tell you exactly how to obtain the same (or higher) level of security as tested.

    Linux was certified as providing only "low to moderate" security, compared with the same group's certification as "moderate to high" last year of the security of Microsoft's Windows 2000 software.

    Now as windows advocates were forced to admit, a security rating is about as useful(/useless) as a TPC-C benchmark. It's a test under controlled circumstances and the real world is never this controlled - but it does compare apples to apples. No serious advocate of either would blindly consider the other to be utterly secure or unsecure; but I think the /. editors have jumped the gun both factually (it's not the highest rating possible, it's the lowest rating possible) and enthusiastically. I mean, would this story have made it if the headline read "Linux finally achieves a security rating lower than Windows 2000"?

    Windows XP and 2003 are currently under testing but it takes time so please don't reveal your ignorance by announcing that Linux must be more secure than either of those since they haven't been certified yet. XP is every bit as secure and more than Windows 2000 and 2003 is far more secure than any other Windows release. That they'll be certified is not a question but just a matter of time.

    Flame away - the karma rating here is meaningless as it's nearly effortless to get "Excellent" and maintain it.

    1. Re:The obligatory flamebait defending the facts by SmallFurryCreature · · Score: 2, Interesting
      Well since your being factual why do you start with a lie? Windows does not have security rating, Windows 2000 service pack 3 has a rating. As for it already having it for a year is meaningless. Linux has started out as a free OS, meaning that it simply could not buy the testing. Half a million is of course peanuts to MS and for that matter IBM but to the loose group of coders it is a lot of money that would be next to impossible to collect, and why would they want to? What you are saying is that a train leaving the station at 8 in the morning arrives earlier then a train departing at 8 in the evening. Well duh.

      This is good news allaround no matter wich OS you fancy. It levels the playing field. For the end consumers competition is always good, the price fighting between airlines means that the ticket prices drop and that more choice is available (super cheap vs service)

      Now MS can't simply rely on getting the big contracts hopefully, as we have seen in munich this can force MS to offer huge pricecuts. For goverments the less they spend on software the less taxes you have to pay. Good news no?

      --

      MMO Quests are like orgasms:

      You may solo them, I prefer them in a group.

    2. Re:The obligatory flamebait defending the facts by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Then why don't you follow it up with even more nitpicking.

      Linux does not have a security rating. One IBM tweaked specific SuSe distribution has a rating. That rating is specific to the configuration and does not apply anywhere else.

    3. Re:The obligatory flamebait defending the facts by 0x0d0a · · Score: 2, Informative

      Windows does not have security rating, Windows 2000 service pack 3 has a rating.

      Windows 2000SP3 has a remote root RPC exploit.

    4. Re:The obligatory flamebait defending the facts by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      And a patch a day later to close it.
      Moving on.

    5. Re:The obligatory flamebait defending the facts by Drestin · · Score: 1
      I did not lie and you know it. When you say "Linux" was certified - did I accuse you of lying when we all know that it's ONLY a very specific configuration of ONLY the SuSE distribution ONLY on very specific IBM hardware? Well, that's a fact but we are speaking a little more generally aren't we? Also, that half million, it came from IBM, not a "loose group of coders."

      Fact: Windows 2000 has a higher security certification than SuSE Linux. Linux has been around longer than Windows 2000 and still took a year longer. Fact: No other Linux Distrib on any hardware has ever received a security certification.

      It is good news though, it puts things in perspective. Windows 2000 is able to achieve a higher degree of security certification than SuSE Linux. The Germans can put that in their beer and drink it. Did anyone else not find it interesting that the Germans picked the big German distribution and not the US MS solution? Gosh, suprise? Lets not forget that all those Linux workstations are running VMWare to continue to run Windows applications. Not exactly a big win for "Linux"

    6. Re:The obligatory flamebait defending the facts by Drestin · · Score: 1
      Windows 2000SP3 has a remote root RPC exploit.

      Almost every version of linux has a remote root exploit in it - until it's found and patched against it.

      Look, don't be lame eh? At the time of W2KSP3 the RPC exploit was unknown by all parties. It was discovered and patched before it was known by the public. I don't think you imagine that the version of SuSE that was certified was a .0 version that had no hotfixes or patches of any kind applied do you?

    7. Re:The obligatory flamebait defending the facts by Drestin · · Score: 1

      Actually, the patch was released simultaneously with the vulnerability being published - the discoverers did the "right thing" IMHO.

    8. Re:The obligatory flamebait defending the facts by 0x0d0a · · Score: 1

      Said version of SuSE had an *out-of-box-vulnerable* remote root exploit? This is news to me.

    9. Re:The obligatory flamebait defending the facts by plugger · · Score: 1

      I was following you right up until the random attack on Germans. Wtf wouldn't they support a homegrown software company?

    10. Re:The obligatory flamebait defending the facts by Drestin · · Score: 1

      That's not what I wrote or meant.

    11. Re:The obligatory flamebait defending the facts by Drestin · · Score: 1

      It wasn't meant as an attack. It seems to me that they went with the "home team" - a sort of "anything but microsoft" approach to their solution. How else explain the VMWare use? I mean, you need Windows licenses and have the added cost of the VMWare and your users want Windows but only some beaurakraut somewhere decided to stick it to the US company - probably some kinda revenge for Iraq. I dunno... I don't even like beer. ;)

    12. Re:The obligatory flamebait defending the facts by plugger · · Score: 1

      I doubt it had anything to do with Iraq. That disagreement took place from about October '02 onwards, I doubt they suddenly started making plans to migrate away from Windows at that point. Maybe paying for Windows licences makes sense if you are also helping to grow your own software industry.

  40. SuSE, not Linux by perly-king-69 · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Excuse the pedantry, but doesn't this mean SuSE running on IBM boxes got certified, not Linux per se?

    --

    --
    This sig is inoffensive.

  41. EAL2 is not the highest score by Barnoid · · Score: 1

    and basically just stands for "structurally tested", so keep your feet on the ground.

    Win2K got EAL4; the levels go up to EAL7

    Here are short descriptions:
    http://commoncriteria.org/docs/EALs .html
    (sorry, don't know how to turn this into a link...)

  42. No, I won't spare you those "flames" by doc_traig · · Score: 2, Informative

    *BSD might as well be dead to the commercial and government enterprises. Until you see the likes of Dell and IBM slapping FreeBSD on their shiny metal systems, your run-of-the-mill IT buyer will still regard the OS as something whose name simply rings a bell or is the answer to an IT-related trivia question.

    I work at a gov't site. We have plenty of systems in production and dev environments running Linux, in part because the project managers were able to use the Dell fed contract to get those servers with Linux. So, Linux is recognized by those buyers as a legitimate OS for business use. I can certainly slap SomeBSD on those machines, but whoops, the Oracle vendor said Linux was good, but not this SomeBSD.

    When BSD is embraced by top-level vendors, companies will consider it.

    --
    So long, michael. Don't let the door hit you...
    1. Re:No, I won't spare you those "flames" by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
      When BSD is embraced by top-level vendors, companies will consider it.

      Well, I just can't wait for that to happen.

  43. Linux got 'highest rating possible'? Maybe not... by dipfan · · Score: 1

    Linux got the highest rating possible.

    Is this right? Because that's not how the Wall Street Journal (subscription only) reported it today:
    SuSE Linux got a Level 2 certification, which he [Jonathan Eunice, principal analyst at market researcher Illuminata] said "isn't particularly detailed." Microsoft Corp. has a Level 4 certification, which involves "substantially more detailed" investigation by testing labs.

    The Wall Street Journal gave this big play ... it's subscription only, but here's some details:

    To get the certification, IBM enlisted SuSE, which distributes one of the leading versions of Linux. Mr. Donofrio said IBM paid less than $500,000 to get the certification at a independent testing center in Germany run by atsec information security GmbH. [IBM's senior vice president of technology and manufacturing, Nicholas] Donofrio said the security certification required few changes. It simply assured that Linux didn't have weaknesses that could be exploited by hackers, such as failing to really erase information on command. The certification included approval of the process SuSE uses to upgrade the software without introducing new security risks.

    In a statement, the Defense Information Systems Agency said it was "pleased" that Linux has attained the certification.

    Jonathan Eunice, principal analyst at market researcher Illuminata, Nashua, N.H., said the certification is significant, because "competitors have openly said Linux would never get to this level of security."

    The initial certification is for Linux running on servers using Intel Corp. microprocessors. Mr. Eunice said SuSE Linux got a Level 2 certification, which he said "isn't particularly detailed." Microsoft Corp. has a Level 4 certification, which involves "substantially more detailed" investigation by testing labs. IBM said it would sponsor security testing for Linux software running on other servers it makes, including its mainframes.


    There's a NY Times story on the subject here (and a good SCO one on the Red Hat legal case following it).

  44. Journalism? by Quila · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Supporters said Linux software, whose popular mascot is a penguin, was under testing for better-security ratings.

    WTF does Linux's mascot have to do with being under testing for better ratings? Is the reporter trying to convey the impression that Linux is isn't serious business since it has a cute mascot instead of a corporate logo?

    Wrong place in the article to put that bit.

    1. Re:Journalism? by stratjakt · · Score: 1

      Yes.

      The cartoon penguin is sophomoric and serves as a constant reminder to PHBs and beurocrats that Linux is an OS for the hobbyist.

      --
      I don't need no instructions to know how to rock!!!!
  45. Distro *and* hardware! by aspargillus · · Score: 3, Informative

    According to the press release the certification covers the `SuSE Linux Enterprise Server 8 on IBM eServer xSeries', i.e. a specific SuSE product running on a specific family of servers. And nothing else. Read also this bit.

    1. Re:Distro *and* hardware! by AndroidCat · · Score: 1
      And the certification process can take a long time, which is a pain when you can't change any of the hardware (boards, cards, drives, etc) for years. In 1989 I saw a Tempest-rated system. A clunky old 8088 or 286 running MS-DOS 2.0. (The fiber-optic keyboard and monitor cables were pretty cool. Too bad the person who took it apart didn't realise that when he cut the monitor cable to get it off. :^)

      If Red Hat wants to get certified, they're going to have to cut a deal with a box maker. That could be interesting.

      --
      One line blog. I hear that they're called Twitters now.
  46. Re:intel only by ftvcs · · Score: 1

    From the article:

    Linux, running on IBM computers using Intel Corp.'s (Nasdaq:INTC - news) chips, received the Common Criteria certification

  47. Highest rating possible? by Rogerborg · · Score: 1

    What would BSD get then? This rating goes to 11?

    --
    If you were blocking sigs, you wouldn't have to read this.
  48. CC is just not that simple. by Osrin · · Score: 4, Insightful

    1) CC != Security, CC == Trust. EAL2 is close to the lowest level of evaluation and if my recollection of the eval levels is correct (it's been a while), EAL2 basically says that somebody somewhere might be able to find the documentation behind all the code if they went looking for it. Win 2k got EAL4 which is a full code and documentation review.

    2) When you put a product into CC you define a protection profile, the weight and value of the evaluation is based upon the complexity of that profile. It would be useful to see the profile for this eval. It is possible (in theory at least) to get a product through CC by defining a profile that outlines what happens when you click on the "Red Hat". The more you exclude the more quickly you get through the process, but conversely the less interesting the evaluation is to government.

    3) For those of you that feel this steals a march over WinXP, be aware that WinXP is in evaluation and the protection profiles that it is being evaluated under are public. Microsoft are doing a far more extensive job with XP than IBM did with Linux. When a Government procurement organisation comes to buy product, even for systems classified as SECRET, the fact that a product is in evaluation is generally enough, this is certainly true outside of the US.

    Don't get me wrong, this is a great start and will certainly spread a lot of marketing fud but it does not mean a great deal to the government community. If anything it will raise a series of questions about why Microsoft's so called 'in secure' product can achieve EAL4 when the Open Source Linux offering can only scratch through EAL2.

    Tread carefully.

  49. Sfgate by mandrakeroot · · Score: 1

    This http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/news/ archive/2003/08/04/financial0031EDT0009.DTL article explains the issue in more detail.

  50. LET'S SLASHDOT! by SharpFang · · Score: 3, Informative

    Nope, we won't slashdot Yahoo. But we may slashdot their rating system :)

    There's that "Rate This Message" on the bottom. Just everyone pick "5" and the news will make to the "highest rated" and possibly to top headlines of Yahoo news.

    --
    45 5F E1 04 22 CA 29 C4 93 3F 95 05 2B 79 2A B2
  51. Windows NT 3.5 by CaptainZapp · · Score: 3, Funny
    Anybody remembers the Windows NT 3.5 certification fiasko?

    Very true that it got C2 certification, but if I recall correctly only when external drives where removed and the PC was not hooked up to a network.

    --
    ich bin der musikant

    mit taschenrechner in der hand

    kraftwerk

    1. Re:Windows NT 3.5 by Osrin · · Score: 1

      it's all about the protection profile... Government recognizes this, marketeers tend not to.

    2. Re:Windows NT 3.5 by TheNetAvenger · · Score: 1

      Very true that it got C2 certification, but if I recall correctly only when external drives where removed and the PC was not hooked up to a network.

      But if you actually KNEW what you were talking about, you would know that in order to get C2 certfication, ALL EXTERNAL AND NETWORK Interfaces have to be removed.

      So before you start to discount any NT C2 certifications, try to understand what the C2 certification is about.

      As this is a GUIDELINE OF C2 Certficiation, NO OS IN THE WORLD CAN OBTAIN C2 Certificaiton with external or network inferfaces installed.

      Period...

      Go read the C2 Cerfication requirements...

      Geesh...

    3. Re:Windows NT 3.5 by CaptainZapp · · Score: 1
      Ah yes, and where precisely in the specifications do you read that all external disks and network interfaces have to be removed to achieve C2 certification?

      You're either talking out of your arse or even worse are one of Microsofts astroturfs who have known to frequent this place.

      There is no need to thank me.

      --
      ich bin der musikant

      mit taschenrechner in der hand

      kraftwerk

  52. In your face! by katsushiro · · Score: 1

    Hehe.. In your face, Scott McCollum! Put *that* in your narrow little pipe and smoke it!

    (and for those of you who dunno who our dear friend Scott is, he's a 'writer' for WorldTechTribune.com makes a habit of writing screed after screed of his anti-Linux and anti-open source opinions (and tries to pass them off as news half the time). I wouldn't hate his guts so much if his arguments made sense, but he just basically sits there spouting nothing but FUD and thinly disguised pro-MS propaganda, and when OSS advocates react with proper indignation to his bull, he has the sheer gall to act all shocked and point at their emails and go 'Look, see, they're attacking me for no reason, it just goes to prove those dirty Open Source hippies are nothing but savages!'. Also, he wrote a couple of articles about how Win2K had gotten this same certification when Linux didn't have it yet, and then he went on to proclaim that Linux would *never* get this certification because it was inherently insecure and flawed, unlike his beloved Win2K. So, from IBM with love, fuck you, Scott McCollum.)

    --
    "Two things are infinite: the universe, and human stupidity. And I'm not sure about the first one." - Albert Einstein
    1. Re:In your face! by Osrin · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Principally he is right though... Linux will never and can never get EAL4, with a decent protection profile, as it currently stands. You would have to go back and document the development process for each and every component in the OS. Accounting for the activity of all the contributing developers. On the brighter side... there is talk of changing the CC process to better suit the OSS world.

    2. Re:In your face! by katsushiro · · Score: 3, Insightful

      I agree with you on that. As the requirements for EAL4 certification stand right now, it's quite true that Linux would not be able to qualify. However, the reason Linux doesn't qualify shows exactly what the problem is with his argument that Linux is less secure somehow because it doesn't have this certification: Linux is not unable to achieve EAL4 because of a lack of technical merit or actual real world security, it's because of a *technicality*. While documentation of the development process is, I suppose, necesary for closed source operating systems to prove certain standards of programming, the fact that you can actually *look* at the source code in OSS projects lessens the neccesity of this aspect for that type of projects. If I can look at the code and actually see that, for example, the password authentication routines are secure, then does it matter if the actual programming was done by a highly regimented team of programmers using a compartmentalized programming methodology, or a lone college student working from his parents basement while munching cheetos? The resulting code and its security is what matters, not so much the development process used to arrive at this code.

      At least, that's *my* humble opinion. :) So here's hoping that the talk of changing the CC process to take OSS principles into account more moves from beyond mere talk to some action.

      --
      "Two things are infinite: the universe, and human stupidity. And I'm not sure about the first one." - Albert Einstein
    3. Re:In your face! by Osrin · · Score: 4, Insightful

      The terms CC and "security" should never be used in the same sentence, CC is not about security it is about trust.

    4. Re:In your face! by autechre · · Score: 1


      > CC is not about security it is about trust.

      Hey, you just used the terms CC and security in the same sentence.

      --
      WMBC freeform/independent online radio.
    5. Re:In your face! by katsushiro · · Score: 1

      Hmm.. I suppose you have a point there. So dos that mean that 'intent' plays a part in it, as well? IE. if the college kid I alluded to earlier coded this incredibly secure password protection system as a way of hiding his pr0n stash, is it somehow less trustworthy than if the same or equivalent system had been created by a team of corporate programmers to protect a bank's data store? Or am I looking at this the wrong way? (I mean, frankly, if it's about trust, after MS's actions and federal court losses, I wouldn't trust them or their OS's any further than I can throw them.. and I'm sure I can't throw a corporation that big very far at all)

      --
      "Two things are infinite: the universe, and human stupidity. And I'm not sure about the first one." - Albert Einstein
  53. Why not go to... by sczimme · · Score: 1


    the Common Criteria web site and have a look?

    --
    I want to drag this out as long as possible. Bring me my protractor.
  54. Re:Linux got 'highest rating possible'? Maybe not. by akiaki007 · · Score: 2, Informative

    I'm not sure what it means by the "higest rating possible," but I do know that Level 2 security clearance is what you need in order to take orders and be a real DoD contracter. This is the level that I believe Raytheon's ICCC division (the ones that program the missiles) and other companies such as Boeing work on. The divisons themselves have to be certified in order to work on projects, and since about last year the gov't has started to push their contracters to do this, it makes sense that this finally happened.

    This doesn't really open the way for other companies to use Linux, I don't think, but perhaps this will get other compeanies to do this as well. More competition can't hurt, right?

    --
    "Time is long and life is short, so begin to live while you still can." -EV
  55. No Such Thing. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Actually if you want to be nitpicky about HIPPA, there really doesn't exist *ANY* computer (and never has nor ever will) secure enough to store patient medical data, yet HIPPA *requires* you to do all your data communication electronically. Go figure.

    I'm in the middle of setting up a supposedly-HIPPA-compliant system right now for a small city government clinic. It's a Windows 2000 server because the insurance claims processing software they bought requires MS SQL Server. It will reside on an isolated network segment with all it's workstations, and do it's online claims processing thru a second hardware encrypting NIC that then goes thru a Linux box that's set up with kernel 2.4.x iptables firewall rules before getting out to the Internet to transmit the insurance stuff to the claims processing center. They're demanding that I sign off on this arrangement being secure and HIPPA compliant, but I refuse to sign unless they purchase a private frame relay line connection between their office and the claims processing center instead of using their internet connection, but they're too cheap to pay for a private line so I guess they're just gonna have to run the system without my official signoff, and communicate over the internet, which I still think is insecure as hell even with the encryption and strict firewall.

  56. Re:intel only by ftvcs · · Score: 1

    Judging from another article it's only the SuSE Linux Enterprise Server 8 in combination with a Intel-based xSerie-server from IBM.
    The real question is whether people will feel safe to use it. It's not yet level 4 certified like w2k or HP-UX but then again a certificate doesn't mean your product is safe.
    Btw, my belief is they still have some work to be done, but they 'll get there.

  57. Highest Rating Possible is misleading! by sh4d0wb0x3r · · Score: 3, Interesting

    Linux received it's evaluation at a level of EAL2; according to the CC guidelines, this is "structurally tested" and means that it should "not demand more effort on the part of the developer that is consistent with good commercial practice"; applicable where "a low to moderate level of independently assured security" is required.
    Windows 2K received an EAL4+, according to NIAP's evaluated product list; which is *supposed* to show it was "methodically designed, tested, and reviewed". This is probably about on par with the old Orange Book (TCSEC) C3 it used to have. EAL4 does "not require substantial specialist knowledge" and is the "highest level in which it is likely to be economically feasible to retrofit in an existing product line." It's intended that an EAL4 system shows "low-level design for the Target of Evaluation (ToE)"; with testing that supports "independent search for obvious vulnerabilities."
    That being said, having an EAL2 or EAL4 will probably not get you into a job that involves holding classified data.
    All of this is accessible from , the CC website.

  58. Smell those contracts by Teahouse · · Score: 5, Insightful

    This announcement means only one thing. IBM would not have gone through this trouble unless there were a few large contracts (DARPA/DOD) that will underwrite the expense in the future. Think I'll buy a few more shares of IBM stock today.

    --
    "Curiosity killed the cat, but for a while I was a suspect."- Steven Wright
  59. Details, Context, Common Criteria EAL - Correction by securitas · · Score: 1


    You can read lots more about this by choosing from the links in the rejected post below. Also, it's important to note that EAL2 is NOT the highest Common Criteria certification level. The Common Criteria for Information Technology Security Evaluation v2.1 describes the security assurance requirements and EALs in detail. For a look at the details read about the Evaluation Assurance Levels at NIST.

    IBM, SuSE Linux Get Common Criteria Security Certification

    Linux has reached a new milestone: IBM and SuSE Linux have received the Common Criteria Security Certification from the U.S. government (mirror), specifically from the Defense Information Security Agency (DISA) arm of the Pentagon. 'Right now it is the only Linux distribution available that has this. This certification is used as a standard by 14 countries including the U.S. and Canada,' says the SuSE U.S. general manager. Linux Enterprise Server 8 is certified at Evaluation Assurance Level 2+ EAL2 with the companies jointly pursuing a Controlled Access Protection Profile EAL3 certification by year-end, then on to EAL4. More details at CNet, AP via Detnews/CNN and Reuters/Forbes. It looks like they beat Red Hat to the punch.

  60. EAL2 vs EAL4 vs high assurance security by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    The Common Criteria evaluation scale runs from
    EAL1 to EAL7.

    Linux just got an EAL2. Windows has an EAL4.
    Any number of UNIX flavors have EAL4 evaluations.
    None of them are "high security".

    Security only starts to get serious at EAL5, and
    you don't get real serious penetration resistance until EAL6 or EAL7.

  61. More info... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    on pending Linux contracts with the US government can be found here.

  62. from the suse-security-mailing list by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    IBM and SuSE Linux Earn First Security Certification of Linux

    ARMONK, N.Y. and Oakland, CA, August 5, 2003 -- IBM and SuSE Linux today
    announced that the two companies have achieved the first ever security
    certification of Linux, taking the critical next step in the maturation of
    Linux and enabling the adoption of Linux by governments and companies around
    the world for mission critical environments.

    IBM and SuSE Linux have achieved Common Criteria Security Certification for
    SuSE Linux Enterprise Server 8 running on IBM eServer xSeries. The Common
    Criteria (CC) is an internationally recognized ISO standard (ISO 15408) used
    by the Federal government and other organizations to assess security and
    assurance of technology products. The CC provides a standardized way of
    expressing security requirements and defines the respective set of rigorous
    criteria by which the product will be evaluated. It is widely recognized
    among IT professionals, government agencies, and customers as a seal of
    approval for mission-critical software.

    "We are pleased that Linux has reached this important security milestone
    through the joint efforts of IBM and SuSE," said Fritz Schulz, Defense
    Information Systems Agency. "The Common Criteria certification of Linux
    will be a critical factor as Linux is applied to mission critical
    environments."

    SuSE Linux Enterprise Server 8 on IBM eServer xSeries has earned an
    Evaluation Assurance Level 2+ certification, commonly referred to as EAL2.
    IBM and SuSE also announced today that the companies have filed for a higher
    level of security certification for Linux, the Controlled Access Protection
    Profile with EAL3+ across the IBM eServer product line, which is expected
    later this year.

    In addition to the Common Criteria certification, SLES 8 on IBM eServer
    platforms will meet the Common Operating Environment (COE) standard later
    this year. This will lead to a product that simultaneously meets Common
    Criteria and COE requirements. This standard, unique to the US Department of
    Defense (DoD), addresses functionality and interoperability requirements for
    commercially acquired IT products. The COE specification is used to verify
    the look and feel and function of software products as they are joined with
    government customized code. The COE is broadly recognized as a standard
    computing environment across the U.S. Government command and control
    systems.

    "IBM and SuSE's landmark decision to submit the SuSE Linux Enterprise Server
    product to Common Criteria testing challenges the view of many skeptics that
    open source systems could not withstand such testing due to the difficulty
    of establishing processes in an open-source environment. This announcement
    demonstrates IBM's commitment to enterprise infrastructure that is secure,
    cost effective and open," said IBM Senior Vice President of Technology and
    Manufacturing, Nicholas Donofrio. "With this announcement, we continue to
    build upon our commitment to delivering Common Criteria certification across
    the IBM eServer platforms. Most importantly, the Common Criteria
    certification further validates the security and quality of open source
    software, not only for Global Government, but for other industries with
    critical security requirements."

    "SuSE is the world's only open source operating system manufacturer which has
    technically demonstrated Common Criteria proficiency that can control and
    minimize security risks through a comprehensive quality assurance process,"
    said Richard Seibt, Chief Executive Officer, SuSE Linux. "The Common
    Criteria evaluation marks yet another first for SuSE, and will further
    reassure companies of the high quality and security of the SuSE Linux
    Enterprise Server."

    Sponsored by IBM, the evaluation was completed by atsec information security
    GmbH, one of the world's leading vendor-independent IT securi

  63. Impossible! by nadim · · Score: 0

    How can you certify something that is illegal? Can you certify me stealing a car? SCO owns the certification, and soon enough i'm sure they will own my car :(

  64. Oooh... secure. by astroboy · · Score: 1

    While this has implications for government acceptance of Linux, which is good, it turns out that it wasn't all that significant when W2K achieved it, and means even less that a system running linux got EAL2. It's probably most interesting that it was an IBM system running SUSE system, not RedHat.

  65. Greedy Government by phorm · · Score: 1

    Even the greediest government agency has to operate within budget

    True, yes, but they can cut corners in other places and then profit personally by choosing Evil Corporation A (tm) as a supplier. After all, it's usually cheaper in the end to offer a minor discount to a high-volume sale, and then a larger "incentive" to those in charge. It's not like gov't have to use half the crap they come up with, that's for the grunts like you and me.

    1. Re:Greedy Government by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Actually, there are all sorts of rules binding procurement on government officials that prohibit this and purchasers have to fill out so many forms regarding exactly how much they spent and how much was paid for every time they meet with a vendor that kickbacks (aside from a nice lunch provided by the vendor) are all but impossible. It's far more likely that products from Evil Corporation A (tm) will be chosen simply because EvilCorp.A might have overwhelming market dominance (hypothetically ). Trust me, it's far more likely that the folks in purchasing (or the folks in charge) are mindless M$ drones than that they're actively being bribed.

  66. Highest possible? by anthonyrcalgary · · Score: 1

    They need more granularity in their rating system if Linux got the same rating as OpenBSD or OpenVMS or Multics.

    --
    When someone might yell at me, it has to be OpenBSD.
  67. Government requiring LSB distribution too! by isn't+my+name · · Score: 3, Interesting

    I think what this means is that they can pick Linux and have a piece of paper supporting their choice. Got to cover their own backs I guess.

    Better still the Defense Information Systems Agency is recommending that any Linux purchase support the LSB and that apps be written to the LSB.

    So, not only is it now easier for government agencies to support Linux deployments, but they are going to force any Linux distributor doing business with the government into interoperability.

    1. Re:Government requiring LSB distribution too! by 0x0d0a · · Score: 1

      Ah, but no version of Linux is C2 certified! :-)

      Obsolete standard, MS hasn't had a certified version of Windows for ages, but they still crow about it (probably because of how much damn money they threw into development to make C2).

    2. Re:Government requiring LSB distribution too! by cayenne8 · · Score: 1
      Correct...but, this could be a first step towards the C2 certification...if they still want it (didn't know it was obsolete...will need to check into that). In the past when I'd tried to introduce Linux as a possible OS...was shot down due to no security certs.

      Although some of the DoD are already using Linux, it isn't well known throughout all the services...this will be a nice new argument towards implementing Linux powered solutions. We need all the help we can get.

      --
      Light travels faster than sound. This is why some people appear bright until you hear them speak.........
    3. Re:Government requiring LSB distribution too! by 0x0d0a · · Score: 1

      It's not officially obsolete. It's just a lot less relevant than it once was -- it doesn't deal with a networked (I didn't say Internet-connected, just networked) environment, and doesn't address things like asymetric crypto auth that have become more important in a secure environment.

    4. Re:Government requiring LSB distribution too! by hwyguy2 · · Score: 2, Informative
      Correct...but, this could be a first step towards the C2 certification

      C2 refers to ratings under the TCSEC. For government use, the TCSEC has officially been cancelled. Thus, no one is going for C2 anymore. The closest equivalent are products that are compliant with the Controlled Access Protection Profile (CAPP), or soon, the Operating System Profile for Basic Robustness. You can learn more about these profiles at the IATF website.

      Daniel

  68. How then... by phorm · · Score: 2

    do the tests themselves work. Unfortunately, a lot of stuff in the computing world revolves around windows - so it could be a matter of adding criterium to the test based on what windows does or "is supposed to do."

    It's one thing to say "Operating System A this this security feature while Operating System B does not", but it's a moot point when the way in which System B operates makes such a feature unnecessessary anyways, or if there's a better/different way of doing it that isn't written on a sheet of paper.

    1. Re:How then... by hwyguy2 · · Score: 2, Informative

      do the tests themselves work. Unfortunately, a lot of stuff in the computing world revolves around windows - so it could be a matter of adding criterium to the test based on what windows does or "is supposed to do."


      It's one thing to say "Operating System A this this security feature while Operating System B does not", but it's a moot point when the way in which System B operates makes such a feature unnecessessary anyways, or if there's a better/different way of doing it that isn't written on a sheet of paper.


      This is where understanding the Common Criteria and how it works is critical. So take your seats, boys and girls, for a little primer.


      The Common Criteria is not a criteria, per se, but a catalog of potential ways to address threats. When one writes a security target, one begins by enumerating the environment in which the product works: the assumptions, the threats the product will address, the threats the environment will address, and the policy. One then creates objectives for both the product and the environment to address those threats. To implement each of the objectives, one selects components from the CC.


      In a security target (ST), this is a statement of "This is what I do". A Protection Profile (PP) is a statement of "THis is what I want". One can build a target that is compliant with the PP, this is "You want this; here's how I give it to you".


      But the key thing is that the target details the functionality the product claims. The evaluation process provides confidence that what is claimed is what is implemented.


      Confidence, or in CC speak, assurance, comes in a variety of areas: how the design was documented and developed, what guidance is given users, how throughly the product was tested, whether configuration management was in place, etc. These assurance areas are arranged into a set of 7 EALs, where EAL1 is "I ran a test and it worked", and EAL7 is formally specified and verified with penetration testing, etc.


      Well, that's a quick introduction. Hopefully, this helped.


      Daniel

      (Want to learn more about security? Attend the Applied Computer Security Applications Conference, (ACSAC).

  69. But Murdock Said... by PetoskeyGuy · · Score: 1

    Linux is a Process, Not a Product. :)

    I'm sure this upsets him to see people treating linux as if it weren't a ever changing dynamic process.

    Seriously though that's great. Even though I don't use Suse or own an IBM server. Hopefully Dell will get in on this so I can afford a cheap server too.

  70. The problem with Linux and Common Criteria by nemaispuke · · Score: 2, Interesting

    It is great that Linux has been evaluated using Common Criteria, unfortunately there will not be a whole lot of Government agencies lining up to buy it. The standard for classified material is C2/EAL4 regardless of classification. Since Linux does not have the extended auditing that commerical Unix and Windows NT/2000/XP has, it will never get above EAL3. What I would like to see is the the Hardened Gentoo box evaluated under CC (www.gentoo.org/proj/en/hardened). I logged into this box and could basically do nothing (as root)! It uses NSA's Security Enhanced Linux and a variation of Role Based Access Control. This machine will pass muster! I can't wait for the day Linux gets EAL4, but I don't think that is coming too soon.

  71. Nobody ever got fired for buying IBM by karlandtanya · · Score: 3, Insightful
    True or not, the point is that (at least the SuSE distribution of) GNU/Linux now has a serious backer with right to sell to the gubmit.

    All this rating does is open the door a little. It's up to the marketing boys at IBM to bludgeon the pencil-pushers into submission.

    Claiming some sort of "victory" for GNU/Linux as a whole is silly. This is another step in the right direction.

    As GNU/Linux has become more utilized, it has attracted the attention of powerful (and some incompetent) enemies. Be careful what you wish for! GNU/Linux, by its nature will never present a unified front to defend itself. By binding the interestes of users to the interests of parties with power, we improve the chances that things will go our way.

    --
    "Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, it doesn't go away." - Philip K. Dick
  72. The significance of EAL2,3,4, etc. by swordgeek · · Score: 4, Informative

    First of all in case you missed it: SuSE Linux running on specific IBM hardware is certified at EAL2. Win2000 was certified at the much higher EAL4, but only under some fairly restrictive circumstances.

    Now realistically, EAL4 IS a restrictive certification! Trusted Solaris8 is EAL4 certified. Most default Unix installs might barely pass EAL2. What good is it then?

    Read the C|Net article and you'll find that IBM is pursuing EAL3 and EAL4 for SuSE Linux next. That's a Good Thing, for any number of reasons, not the least of which is being able to sell to defense contractors for secure (but not secret or top-secret) level requirements.

    Practically speaking though, the different levels, while increasingly restrictive, aren't a scale of security goodness. They serve different effective purposes. Do you WANT an EAL4 system on your desktop? Probably not. Do you want it in your server room? There's a good chance, yeah. Do you want an EAL7 system for anything at all? Unless you're the NSA, probably not. This is an OS designed from the ground up with peer review at every stage (architecture, design, implementation) and independent verification on top of that. It is utterly restrictive--you wouldn't be able to put a web browser on an EAL7 system (or more to the point, you wouldn't be allowed to write and install one for the system without breaking the certification). This is the software that runs the shuttle and nuclear bases.

    So basically, let's quit this damned pissing match. EAL2 is good for some things, EAL4 for others, and so forth.

    --

    "People who do stupid things with hazardous materials often die." -- Jim Davidson on alt.folklore.urban
    1. Re:The significance of EAL2,3,4, etc. by xiitone · · Score: 1

      >Now realistically, EAL4 IS a restrictive
      >certification! Trusted Solaris8 is EAL4 certified.
      >Most default Unix installs might barely pass EAL2.

      I'm not disagreeing, but I'd like to add this point-
      What's important is the Protection Profile the evaluation is against-the w2k EAL4 certification is against the CSPP - vaguely equal to the C2 in the Orange Book. The Trusted Solaris EAL4 cert was against a Security Target that conforms with the CSPP, the LSPP (=~ the B1 or B2 cert in the orange book, I forget,) AND the RBAC (role based access control) protection profile.

      --
      Elegance is for tailors. -A. Einstein
    2. Re:The significance of EAL2,3,4, etc. by swordgeek · · Score: 1

      Hmm. I thought the W2k cert. was comparable to a B1 level. I could be wrong though. Trusted Solaris was actually given a B1 before the CC levels were formalised. RBAC is a part of Solaris, and a mandatory part of Trusted Solaris. (In fact, it's an effective replacement for the root user.)

      --

      "People who do stupid things with hazardous materials often die." -- Jim Davidson on alt.folklore.urban
    3. Re:The significance of EAL2,3,4, etc. by RabidStoat · · Score: 1
      This is an OS designed from the ground up with peer review at every stage (architecture, design, implementation) and independent verification on top of that. It is utterly restrictive--you wouldn't be able to put a web browser on an EAL7 system (or more to the point, you wouldn't be allowed to write and install one for the system without breaking the certification). This is the software that runs the shuttle and nuclear bases.

      Might be reading this wrong but don't confuse the security accreditation of a system with the type of software running complex mission critical systems for the shuttle and so on. Obivously there is great care taken in both types of system, but the focus on the mission critical systems is on resilience and reliability, yes out of that process you also sometimes get security, but there is a great deal more functionality in those systems compared to the amount you would want when developing a EAL6/7 system.

      Systems at EAL7 tend to be so functionally minimal they do one very specific task very very predictably. It doesn't actually matter that much that there might be bugs in the system, the important thing is that the behaviour of the system must be predictable. Once you can mathematically "guarantee" the behaviour of the system or provide a "convincing argument" to the correspondence between system and design/model then you are halfway there.

      for a mission critical system like you describe, you have to go much further down those paths to handle the situation, on a very high security system you just decide you are under attack and shut down! Yes, you often take the DOS attack on the chin and shut down the system to give that extra bit of confidence that nothing is going to leak out - it keeps the owners of the data happy. Obviously you don't do that sort of thing on a system like a nuclear power plant or the shuttle or a plane or a hospital life support system or whatever.

  73. What Common Criteria really means by Wesley+Felter · · Score: 3, Informative

    Jonathan Shapiro wrote a great article analyzing the Windows Common Criteria certification; much of it applies to Linux as well. Among other things, it explains why Windows can get certified even with its remote root exploits: "An EAL4 rating means that you did a lot of paperwork related to the software process, but says absolutely nothing about the quality of the software itself. There are no quantifiable measurements made of the software, and essentially none of the code is inspected."

    1. Re:What Common Criteria really means by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
      Both operating systems (Win 2K, SuSe, even TS8) were tested against the same protection profile: Controlled Access Protection Profile. The general purpose of the profile is to make sure that your login screen works correctly and that once logged in, your file permissions work correctly.

      As for the ratings they received, EAL4 means a team of people used good software engineering practices (analysis, design, code, test, document) to produce their product, and the product does what it was designed and documented to do.
      EAL2 means that a team of people cobbled together their product, produced documentation, and the product performs the way the documentation says it will. EAL3 is equivalent to the old C2 rating.

      For reference, the software I write daily goes through a systematic process similar to what is required for EAL4. My company's clients require it. Has anyone in the open source community ever seen a design document for an open source product? If not, "cobbled together" is an apt description. The open source community has some incredibly skilled developers, but no way to know if the software performs as it is supposed to because noone could produce a design document if their life depended on it - only the user documentation (which is usually written after the code). Ultimately, I will be very surprised if an OSS product receives better than EAL3+. That does not mean Linux is more or less secure than any other OS simply based on it's common criteria rating. It simply means it passed a particular set of tests (protection profile) with a certain rating.

      Hope this helps.

  74. Re:3 IBM by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    You assume, my dear Alex, that Microsoft will exist then. Silly boy. Go back to your X-Box.

  75. Which CC Protection Profile did IBM use for Linux? by eludom · · Score: 1

    Anbyody know what profile IBM used ? (see
    http://www.commoncriteria.org/protection_pro files/ index.html)

    --eludom

  76. nytimes... by justo · · Score: 1

    the nytimes has an article on it as well...

  77. HIPAA facts by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Just as info-security is a "process", so, too is the HIPAA Security Rule process-oriented. But there is so much misinformation out there about what HIPAA is and what it does. HIPAA certainly does NOT preclude emergency service personnel from keeping a record of their calls - what hooey.

    If you want some really good descriptions of what HIPAA requires, including access to the free Privacy Rule training modules which New York State government is using for its HIPAA-impacted employees, try New York State's HIPAA web site at www.oft.state.ny.us/hipaa.

    The HIPAA standards come in many flavors. The standards are applicable only to "covered entities", which are three types of entities: health care clearinghouses, health plans, and some health care providers (doctors, nurses, pharmacists, hospitals - but only those medical providers who engage in electronic medical billing).

    There is an Electronic Data Interchange standard (regulation), setting the standards for the fields and the data sets required to be used when doing medical billing electronically.

    There is a Privacy standard, which applies to ALL of the Individually Identifiable Health Information held by a covered entity.

    There are "Identifier" standards, which give health plans, providers, and employers ID numbers for medical e-billing.

    And, there is a Security standard, which applies only to ELECTRONIC health information held by a covered entity.

    The Security standard is process-oriented. Only a few particular types of e-healthinfo security solutions are "required" - the rest are "addressable". What this means is that just about any type of solution can be used from an infosec perspective so long as the covered entity can justify its use and document that justification.

    So, yes, this Common Criteria security certification which was secured by IBM might very well be pointed to in support of a decision to use Linux.

  78. Re:Details, Context, Common Criteria EAL - Correct by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Thanks for taking the time to accurately link to everything. I appreciate taking the time to have details in a response, even if it doesn't get modded as high.

  79. Linux Certified by Goo.cc · · Score: 1

    Wow, so did they certified just the kernel? After all Linux was certified, not GNU/Linux. :)

  80. Which really means SCO got the highest rating. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    This announcement should help sell more licenses for SCO. They deserve it after all that hard work they've put into the OS.

  81. Big Deal by RedWolves2 · · Score: 1

    This really isn't that great of news if you read Paul Thurotts comments Linux Rated Less Secure then Windows

  82. This is incorrect maybe by Bruha · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Haha, what I submitted was still in my paste buffer 12 hours later (Yeah nerds do sleep).. This story according to CNN counterdicts what the main story says. Linux only got a rating for low to moderate security not the highest security.

    In a article on CNN it is reported that the Common Criteria organization, an international technology standards body, certified Linux for the first time on "mission critical" computers, including those in America's top-secret spy agencies and those used to deliver ammunition, food and fuel to soldiers.

    While only certified for Low to Moderate security Linux is still under testing for higher security ratings. IBM says this is good since it gives them a footing in a area that has been dominated by Windows sales. Of note is the fact that IBM paid over $500,000 for testing and was also supported and jointly by SuSE

  83. Support contracts by yerricde · · Score: 1

    I mean when something doesn't work who is held accountable? Linus? Alan? ...?

    A vendor of a commercial distribution of an emancipated operating system will usually sell support contracts. Red Hat makes a sizable chunk of change from that line of work.

    --
    Will I retire or break 10K?
  84. You're missing the point, people... by splutty · · Score: 1

    It seems a lot of you are completely missing the point here. EAL 4 is 'higher' than EAL2, that's entirely true. However:

    EAL3+ all require the OS to be tested from *design*, and since there's never been an official design criterium, or design specification for any linux distro or kernel, it's quite simply impossible to even get EAL3 or more for a linux distro/kernel/whatever.

    The reason Win2K could get EAL4, is because they were already working on that certification before it was even released. That's the whole point.

    Mad.

    --
    Coz eternity my friend, is a long *ing time.
  85. "Linux Rated Less Secure than Windows" by M.+Silver · · Score: 1

    WinInformant was referenced as one of the top articles on this by Google:

    "Linux was certified as providing 'low to moderate' security, while Windows 2000 received a 'moderate to high' security rating last year. According to people close to the certification, Linux was being tested for better security ratings, but only achieved the 'low to moderate' rating."

    Somebody wanna explain to me how this works? Near as I can figure, all that happened was that Linux is still only EAL3 where Windows2K is EAL4 (versus scoring differently on the same test, as WinInformant seems to imply); IBM's older press releases seem to say that EAL4 testing is expected down the road, but this article seems to imply that they've now tried and flunked EAL4.

    I'm not familiar with the differences in the testing, and some basic Googling just turns up lots of press releases so far.

    --

    Slashdot's token middle-aged housewife
    1. Re:"Linux Rated Less Secure than Windows" by plcurechax · · Score: 1

      Somebody wanna explain to me how this works?

      You need to read the Protection Profile/plan, which explains how they define it will handle various events and under what conditions.

      For example I haven't checked but the Windows 2000 Professional, Server, and Advanced Server with SP3 and Q326886 Hotfix (OS) EAL4+ certification may only be for systems without floppy drives and no networking, like the earlier NT4 C2 rating.

      The EAL rating itself is meaningless, except to sales people.

    2. Re:"Linux Rated Less Secure than Windows" by M.+Silver · · Score: 1

      The EAL rating itself is meaningless, except to sales people.

      And newspaper reporters?

      I guess what I was getting at was "Is this a valid comparison?"

      (Not that it matters for other than my personal curiosity; we're pretty well Debian-committed.)

      --

      Slashdot's token middle-aged housewife
    3. Re:"Linux Rated Less Secure than Windows" by plcurechax · · Score: 1

      I guess what I was getting at was "Is this a valid comparison?"

      Bingo! Right question.

      No, you cannot directly compare EAL ratings blindly. You need to weight them based upon the protection profile, that details things like the configuration, and how they are being rated.

      Remember, it's Trusted Computing not Secure Computing. Most of the low-level ratings is about documentation, a paper trail, and establishing basic things like change control (e.g. CVS) and responsibilities (i.e. who, within Suse, maintains mm.c?).

    4. Re:"Linux Rated Less Secure than Windows" by TheNetAvenger · · Score: 1

      For example I haven't checked but the Windows 2000 Professional, Server, and Advanced Server with SP3 and Q326886 Hotfix (OS) EAL4+ certification may only be for systems without floppy drives and no networking, like the earlier NT4 C2 rating.

      Does anyone here even understand the C2 rating?

      Apparently NOT...

      It is a REQUIREMENT for C2 Certification for the system to NOT HAVE EXTERNAL or NETWORK interfaces.

      This was not a limitation in NT4 to obtain this certification, but is a REQUIREMENT OF THE CERTIFICATION ITSELF.

      Geeesh...

    5. Re:"Linux Rated Less Secure than Windows" by plcurechax · · Score: 1


      It is a REQUIREMENT for C2 Certification for the system to NOT HAVE EXTERNAL or NETWORK interfaces.


      Err. Nope.

      The Trusted Computing (Orange Book) C2 dealt with computer systems, not networks. The Orange Book didn't cover networking.

      Or are you going to tell me that all C2 systems did not have a network interface or removable media?

    6. Re:"Linux Rated Less Secure than Windows" by plcurechax · · Score: 1


      It is a REQUIREMENT for C2 Certification for the system to NOT HAVE EXTERNAL or NETWORK interfaces.


      Which is why this document at MSFT describes leaving the floppy driver in the NT4 configuration, and how to restrict NetBIOS....

      My previous post was wrong, it appears that the NT4 C2 eval had networking and a floppy. I blame old age for my faulty memory. Sorry.

    7. Re:"Linux Rated Less Secure than Windows" by TheNetAvenger · · Score: 1

      The Trusted Computing (Orange Book) C2 dealt with computer systems, not networks. The Orange Book didn't cover networking.

      Or are you going to tell me that all C2 systems did not have a network interface or removable media?


      No, but to say that the NT4 Certifcation was not a true C2 because of any network limitations is inaccurate. C2 has NOTHING to do with Networking, it covers basic system security not NETWORKING.

      Also if you review the NT4 C2 certification, you will find that C2 also applies with Networking installed, but it is NOT A PART OF THE C2 Certification. Period.

      A NT4 with Networking and Floppies were allowed with Netbios turned off, etc. Netbios being an old an unsecure protocol.

  86. Re:Linux got 'highest rating possible'? Maybe not. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Yes, it should have read "...got the lowest rating possible to still be considered for DoD work."

  87. And this just in... by drjzzz · · Score: 1
    Yahoo: Technology News from Reuters Aug 5 12:21pm ET Bill Gates Sells $26 Million Worth of Microsoft
    IBM Clinches Security Certification for Linux

    Coincidence?
    --
    to err is human, to forgive is divine, to forget is... umm...
    1. Re:And this just in... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Coincidence?

      Most probably, yes...

  88. What a triumph! by SnappingTurtle · · Score: 1

    The government is finally authorized to buy a free product.

    --
    I've found that my posts don't format quite right w/o a sig.
  89. Gads...an informed post on security and the CC by mikefocke · · Score: 2, Insightful

    My complements.

    EAL7 is the highest defined Common Criteria Evaluation Assurance Level. EAL2 is one of the lower ones and can be achieved by minimal documentation efforts. If one looks at the chart on page 54 of the Common Criteria Part 3 Security Assurance Requirements document, one sees that an EAL7 system would be analyzed in 25 areas where a EAL2 one would be analyzed in only 13. And even in the 13 areas that are common, there are requirements at the EAL7 level to do each thing much better that don't appear at the EAL2. What may seem like a minor wording difference between 2 requiremnets may take millions to achieve.

    EAL2 does not require an exhaustive vulnerability analysis or penetration testing or a covert channel analysis as do those levels above EAL4.

    I'm aware of only one OS aspiring to a greater than EAL5 level for a general purpose operating system, DigitalNet's STOP which is currently in evaluation, has been for 8 months and will be for several more months.

    Acquiring that EAL5+ rating even for a operating system that previously received NSA's highest rating ever for a general purpose operating system takes several years and multiple million $, not the $500K quoted in another post.

    The Govt procuring agency is responsible for assuring that the protection profile or security target that the OS was evaluated against is appropriate for the value of the data they are trying to protect and that the assurance level is also appropriate.

    All an EAL2 does is allows the government to buy and to use Linux in the most insensitive areas. Surely three letter agencies would require much more than an EAL2.

    For the original post to say "highest" is to say the writer misunderstood the significance of the IBM announcement.

    1. Re:Gads...an informed post on security and the CC by sbowles · · Score: 1
      If I had to guess, the lack of documentation is probably the biggest reason why this was done at an EAL2+. This doesn't mean that the product is worse than Windows, it just means that the sponsor (IBM) wasn't willing to pay the extra money (for testing and document generation) required to meet EAL4+. As well, this is only a 1st step as IBM's press release says they will be going to CAPP/EAL3+ across the IBM eServer product line.

      Keep in mind that currently it is fairly useless for a commercial organization to go after a rating higher that EAL4+. The Common Criteria Recognition Agreement (CCRA) does not yet support anything above this level. Thus if an EAL7 is achieved in Germany, it will not be recognized in the US.

      --
      You sly dog: you got me monologuing! - Syndrome
  90. Mod parent up to six, hilarious please... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0


    ...this one put me on the floor. Mod 6/hilarious should be put into use in honor of parent post!

  91. Re:3 IBM by mcgroarty · · Score: 1
    What will we be thinking about Microsoft in 10 or 15 years?

    "That damned fine mouse maker in Redmond."

  92. Interesting enough by friday2k · · Score: 1

    Windows 2000 was certified at Level 4 vs. Level 2 for Linux. While it is a start, Linux has still(!) not achieved CC evaluation at the same standard as Windows.

  93. Not even OpenBSD? by wirelessbuzzers · · Score: 1

    OpenBSD is used for firewalls pretty often in the academic world, although I couldn't speak for the commercial one...

    --
    I hereby place the above post in the public domain.
  94. FUD can mean Fucked-Up Disinformation [nt] by wirelessbuzzers · · Score: 1

    no text

    --
    I hereby place the above post in the public domain.
  95. What did they alter? by xant · · Score: 1

    For these security certifications the configuration of the system is very important. You won't get a cert if install a distro where you have webmin running by default with no password, or something.

    How did IBM configure the box? What patches were applied to the kernel? Was proprietary software involved at all?

    These are the questions I want answered.

    --
    It's rare that you're presented with a knob whose only two positions are Make History and Flee Your Glorious Destiny.
    1. Re:What did they alter? by plcurechax · · Score: 1

      How did IBM configure the box? What patches were applied to the kernel?

      This will be documented in the Common Criteria protection plan, which will be available on the CC (and NIST) website.

  96. Common Criteria, EAL, the DoD and the Gov. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Informative

    Ok folks,

    As someone who just spent the last 2 years of his IT career doing something called "Certification and Accreditation" I can tell you that this IS a big deal.

    The DoD has a process called DITSCAP. In a nutshell it is a process that allows you to gauge the level of "risk" that your system presents, and that risk must be assumed by someone in a position of power.

    There are many (boring) different kinds of regulations and rules that must be followed based you your confidentiality level, physical location, etc, etc ad nauseum..

    Previous to this, if there was a system connected to a gov. network running Linux, it would have to be classified as a high risk simply because it did not meet one of the most simple DITSCAP requirements which says something to the effect of "Are the Commercial Off - The Shelf (COTS) and Government Off - The Shelf (GOTS) products certified?" Previous to this, ANY linux system would fail this requirement and would therefore HAVE to be assigned a higher risk than a win2K desktop. Fair? Hell no, but those are the rules.
    The gov. agency running linux would have to go through all kinds of hoops to keep Linux and assume a "higher" risk level OR switch to Solaris and pay big $$$.

    So, in doing this IBM was simply testing the waters with a cheaper EAL2 certification in order to see if they even had a chance. Seeing that they do, they will now go forward, and I wouldn't be surprised to see a bunch of other Linux Vendors going forward with their own testing.

    So, this is HUGE.. Not just for Suse, not just for IBM, but for the future of Linux in Gov. institutions.

    Sorry for the AC post, this is Maleficarum.

  97. CC certification for that exact setup by plcurechax · · Score: 1

    The common criteria is about an standardized approach to security. The CC itself is not about the system security, just the general approach to the security. CC is also more about information security and information assurance, it is not focused on system vulnrenabilities.

    What does this mean?

    It is basically just a bunch of paperwork to cover the a** of the civil servant who approves the computer system purchases.

    You need to read the actual NIST docs about exactly what hardware the system had. The old NT4 C2 was a specific Compaq with no networking and no floppy drive, IIRC.

    Then you need to look at what they claim to protect against. You can use a standard form letter like protection plan which says it won't get viruses or hacked as long the system has no networking and no removable media or you can use a protection plan which is useful.

    This doesn't mean much in general, other than the usual misunderstanding and misquoting by sales people to management. It doesn't make any difference to Linux itself.

  98. Thanks. Need help? by evenprime · · Score: 1

    Gads...an informed post on security and the CC My complements.

    Thanks.

    EAL7 is the highest defined Common Criteria Evaluation Assurance Level. EAL2 is one of the lower ones and can be achieved by minimal documentation efforts. [....] For the original post to say "highest" is to say the writer misunderstood the significance of the IBM announcement.

    I'm glad you pointed that out. Taco's "highest" comment was just plain silly.

    I'm aware of only one OS aspiring to a greater than EAL5 level for a general purpose operating system, DigitalNet's STOP which is currently in evaluation, has been for 8 months and will be for several more months.

    I didn't know you guys were doing that. It looks like you guys have built a ground up proprietary security OS with XTS-400. Am I reading that correctly? If so, that's much more ambitious than the Solaris/Linux proprietary modules Argus is using in pitbull.

    PS - if you know anyone who needs the services of a CISSP, let me know... ;-)

    --

    "Weapons should be hardy rather than decorative" - Miyamoto Musashi
    I think that goes for OS's too
  99. Where are the moderators? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    A useful, informed post is made with an incredibly helpful link, and the moderators say: "Anonymous Coward? Knee-jerk zero"?

    "Will the Real Slashdot Moderators please stand up, please stand up?"

  100. OpenBSD rating by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Good for Windows and good for Linux, but what is the rating for OpenBSD or other BSD?

  101. Linux vs. Windows by Feztaa · · Score: 1

    My memory is a little foggy here, but I seem to remember the slashdot story about Windows getting the Common Criteria cert -- the rating was so crappy, it basically meant "MS reps showed up, but no actual testing happened". Now Linux gets CC certified, and it gets the highest possible rating.

    I guess I don't really have a point, I just thought that was funny.

  102. You need to know the CC to know what this means. by ibex42 · · Score: 3, Interesting
    These articles all are very vague and do not provide nearly enough information to allow anyone to form a reasonable opinion. First, EAL2 is no where near the highest level of evaluation. More importantly, even if it was evaluated to EAL7, we have no idea what that means without looking at the protection profile (PP). The PP defines the features that are looked at for the evaluation. Without knowing the PP, they could be evaluationing Linux or any OS only for it's ability to control access with a username and password. So in theory, that could mean that once a username and password are provided, the user has unlimited access to all files on the system. As long as that feature is documented, mathematically modeled, and tested correctly it could get a high EAL rating.


    The biggest thing to remember about the CC is that the level rating is relatively meaningless without considering the protection profile. The problem is vendors don't readily tell you the protection profile they use.

  103. Have you done your patch today? by ratfynk · · Score: 1

    Have you patched your Win2000-2003 server today? If not you are putting the country at risk! Funny they knew about the hole 1 year ago and now it takes a Government security warning to get servers to listen. So as far as Windows security being a huge issue for MS? I just wonder how many Win servers are going to go into zombie mode in the next few weeks.
    If this latest security risk of MS is any indication . Seems that security certification is something which MS just buys, not something they really work at. Remember that North Korean cracker school story? Do not be supprised if MS servers get whacked in the near future, never underestimate people who are really mad at you, something the US and MS is famous for. It is really foolish to think that the North Koreans with Chinese help cannot do some serious infrastructure damage. Think of it from the enemies perspective, what a cheap way to cause damage! One hell of a lot cheaper than Nukes.

    --
    OH THE SHAME I fell off the wagon and use sigs again!
  104. Broken link to the IBM press release. (fixed) by Stephen+Samuel · · Score: 1

    When I tried to follow the IBM press release on this, I ran into a brick wall (long delay before a server error). It looks like a capitalization error, and This where I was able to find the page.

    --
    Free Software: Like love, it grows best when given away.
  105. Text of the IBM press release. by Stephen+Samuel · · Score: 1
    (you'd think IBM could get this straight, but their own link on their pages have a big typo in them)

    IBM and SuSE Linux Earn First Security Certification of Linux

    Meets Federal Standards Critical to Homeland Security

    ARMONK, N.Y. and OAKLAND, Calif. -- Aug. 5, 2003 -- IBM and SuSE Linux today announced that SuSE achieved the first ever security certification of Linux, taking the critical next step in the maturation of Linux and enabling the adoption of Linux by governments and companies around the world for mission critical environments.

    SuSE Linux Enterprise Server 8 has achieved Common Criteria Security running on IBM eServer xSeries. The Common Criteria (CC) is an internationally recognized ISO standard (ISO 15408) used by the Federal government and other organizations to assess security and assurance of technology products. The Common Criteria provides a standardized way of expressing security requirements and defines the respective set of rigorous criteria by which the product will be evaluated. It is widely recognized among IT professionals, government agencies, and customers as a seal of approval for mission-critical software.

    "We are pleased that Linux has reached this important security milestone through the joint efforts of IBM and SuSE," said Fritz Schulz, Defense Information Systems Agency. "The Common Criteria certification of Linux will be a critical factor as Linux is applied to mission critical environments."

    SuSE Linux Enterprise Server 8 on IBM eServer xSeries has earned an Evaluation Assurance Level 2+ certification, commonly referred to as EAL2. IBM and SuSE also announced today that the companies have filed for a higher level of security certification for SuSE Linux, the Controlled Access Protection Profile with EAL3+ across the IBM eServer product line, which is expected later this year.

    In addition to the Common Criteria certification, SLES 8 on IBM eServer platforms is expected to meet the Common Operating Environment (COE) standard later this year. This will lead to a product that simultaneously meets Common Criteria and COE requirements. This standard, unique to the US Department of Defense (DoD), addresses functionality and interoperability requirements for commercially acquired IT products. The COE specification is used to verify the look and feel and function of software products as they are joined with government customized code. The COE is broadly recognized as a standard computing environment across the U.S. Government command and control systems.

    "The landmark decision to submit the SuSE Linux Enterprise Server product to Common Criteria testing challenges the view of many skeptics that open source systems could not withstand such testing due to the difficulty of establishing processes in an open-source environment. This announcement demonstrates IBM's commitment to enterprise infrastructure that is secure, cost effective and open," said IBM Senior Vice President of Technology and Manufacturing, Nicholas Donofrio. "With this announcement, we continue to build upon our commitment to delivering Common Criteria certification across the IBM eServer platforms. Most importantly, the Common Criteria certification further validates the security and quality of open source software, not only for Global Government, but for other industries with critical security requirements."

    "SuSE is the world's only open source operating system manufacturer which has technically demonstrated Common Criteria proficiency that can control and minimize security risks through a comprehensive quality assurance process," said Richard Seibt, Chief Executive Officer, SuSE Linux. "The Common Criteria evaluation marks yet another first for

    --
    Free Software: Like love, it grows best when given away.
    1. Re:Text of the IBM press release. by Stephen+Samuel · · Score: 1
      The way that IBM is going about this seems to make perfect sense... First go after the simpler certification on a specific box. Once that's done, all you need to do is figure out what the differences are between that box, and the more general case, and between the lower certification level and the higher one... Then document that those changes are secure. It's a lot easier than going after the whole enchilada in one fell swoop.

      That IBM is willing to go foreward on this definitely indicates that there's a real market for Linux in the government workspace... They're not likely to do something like this unless they have a strong enough demand for the products to pay off the expenses that this process entails.

      My guess (given that they certified SuSe rather than RedHat, is that it has something to do with the Munich contract.

      --
      Free Software: Like love, it grows best when given away.
  106. Re:Thanks. Need help? by hwyguy2 · · Score: 1

    I didn't know you guys were doing that. It looks like [digitalnet.com] you guys have built a ground up proprietary security OS with XTS-400


    Actually, they've been doing it much longer. XTS-400 is the grandchild of the B3-rated XTS-200, the first B3 rated system (XTS-300 was also B3 rated). The XTS-200 evaluation was in the early 1990s (at least that's when I was on the team). And XTS, of course, is the "Son of SCOMP", the first A1 semi-commercial operating system.


    Daniel