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EU Says Microsoft's Abuses Are Ongoing
levell writes "Although the legal difficulties Microsoft was having in the US seem to be drawing to a close, it's not yet over in the EU. In this story, the BBC reports that the EU says it is still abusing its monopoly with Windows Media Player, and perhaps more interestingly from a Linux point of view, also in the low-end server market. The story is also being covered on CNN, Ananova, Reuters, etc." The EU's press release is informative.
it's about time the EU did something about this. i'm presuming they wanted to wait until the US actions were more or less finished before they jumped in. then again, knowing the EU, it's probably just taken them this long to write the proposal (and have it seconded, translated, amended, seconded, yada).
All I Want For Christmas Is My Constitutional Rights
A YRO article that has nothing to do with your rights online. Actually, this comment is -1 redundant, as clearly there never has/will be a YRO article that does what it says on the tin.
They need to be split, and now. Just my opinion...
if MS had to cease Eurpoean operations like SCO did. It would cause them to lose a huge chunk of sales and cause their stock to sink like a rock. In addition, US companies with European branches may become wary of buying from Microsoft, hopefully allowing its competitors to gain some ground lost by MS abusing its monopoly.
Microsoft continues anti-trust practices! We now take you to your regularly scheduled program. GO EU! JAV
Italy, Spain, and Britian want to bomb Redmond, sightings concerns for world security and the fact Gates may be building WMD's. France and Germany would like negotiations to continue and use UN inspectors to search/inspect Microsoft facilities.
Well, my 17" TiBook runs loops around Microsoft, all without violating anti-trust laws! Sure it costs $3400, but its performance is on par with a $859 Dell notebook! And don't get me started on its thinness and sleakness! Sure it's huge and unportable, but at least it's thin! Thank god Apple realizes that thinness is a far more important feature than performance!
Do you know what the best thing about OS X is? It has all the features that Windows has, including a built in browser and media player, but it's not considered to be anticompetive! Why? Because it doesn't have as much market share, and Apple is the "little guy"!! Yay! Yay! Yay! GO APPLE!
"I say fuck all you euro-trash pseudo-sophisticate posers. We'll put a boot in your ass. Its the American way."
Uhh, America has been born partly due to Europe, so uhh, that makes you trash as well?
Microsoft will have to pay a fine of tens of millions of dollars if it does not implement the remedies.
Big freaking deal
They'll just shrug, pay the fine, and continue as before. Or will the EU undertake further actions against MS, if they persist in these practices even after paying the fines?
If construction was anything like programming, an incorrectly fitted lock would bring down the entire building...
Sure they have a monopoly, ie so dominant market share that they could do just about what ever they wish if there weren't anti-monopoly laws.
Like, if MS required every big computer maker to actively hamper using linux on their machines or they wouldn't give them OEM Windows license, how many of the computer makers could affort to decline without going out of business very fast? Or if they wouldn't approve (XP style) any drivers or give DirectX support for any graphcis card maker that didn't keep it's specs secret and release drivers for Win only.
So I'd say it's definitely a monopoly, because only anti-monopoly laws are preventing them from doing stuff like above.
The EU represents the 2nd largest trade area on the planet, and can fine companies who wish to trade in the EU who break competition rules in the EU. And when people next go "that won't hurt MS" remember that the fine is proportionate to the market and the level of control.
So how about a fine equal to the sales over the period of the infringement. And restrictions on the sale of MS products.
And the best bit is that the EU actually has a spine here as its a great chance to piss of a US company, which lets face it they are hardly going to resist.
An Eye for an Eye will make the whole world blind - Gandhi
Thanks to the 'wonderful' computing monoculture that has developed, we are at the mercy of the Redmond monster. So what if the EU fines them, they have $50 billion (US) in the bank to deal with such 'troublesome quarrels'.
The only way the beast can be stopped is a change in technology, such as the way IBM was finally put down (thanks to a creature of their own development, no less).
It isn't Microsoft that's initially to blame for this monoculture, it's the massive numbers of PHB's who subscribe to the 'Nobody ever got fired for buying Microsoft' (or IBM in the old days) mentality that permeates IT purchasing.
Comment removed based on user account deletion
In theory, how much control does the EU have over Microsoft? I know they talked about separating WMP from Windows or bundling other media players with Windows. Could they force Microsoft to take even more drastic measures (such as breaking up the company's overseas operations)?
It might not be "anti-trust", but the way SCO is going, don't be surprised if Apple is sued.
It's a small world and it smells funny; I'd buy another if it wasn't for the money; Take back what I paid (SoM)
No it isn't.
It's vague and makes a few general allegations, but provides not even a hint of specifics or proof.
An overwhelming majority of customers responding to this market enquiry highlighted that Microsoft's non-disclosure of interface information - necessary for competing servers to properly "talk" with Windows PCs and servers - did indeed artificially alter their choice in favour of Microsoft's server products.
To "talk" with windows PCs? Huh? You mean SMB? ODBC? DCOM? Oh wait, those are all known.
They must be talking about ActiveDirectory, right? That's more of a nice new feature than a necessity for business. Will it be the case that every new feature MSFT comes up with must be given away to all?
The Media Player thing is stupid too. It's already "uncoupled" from the OS. You need not install or use it, they even made a special little control panel applet to "uninstall" it. If someone made a better media player, I'd be using it right now.
If the EU wanted to actually make a difference, and not headlines, they'd push linux in their own governments. THEY set the standard everyone follows. People use excel, word and access because that's what the federales use.
I don't need no instructions to know how to rock!!!!
I was thinking, decoupling Media Player is a really difficult thing for Microsoft to do. Most of home computing at the minute involves the convergance of media and the PC, and it's visible through almost everything that MS do. At some point, the two will become indistinguishable (cf Windows Media Center Edition.)
One example is how the Windows shell allows you to preview video files, shows tumbnails etc. Removing these features would detract from using the OS. Instead, they should provide the API hooks to allow these types of things to be pluggable and easily replaced. That way, they're not obstructing competition in any way.
Vacancy for signature. Apply within.
I have to agree with the title of the last post. I tend to believe that the EU shouldn't hold it against MS for including a media player with their operating system. Granted, it should be able to be uninstalled, but why give them grief just b/c they added a feature. If real and quicktime were better products, they would gain more of a widespread use/following. Look at MP3 players for your desktop -- there is a reason that Winamp is so popular. It's just a better alternative.
Four steps to becoming a superpower:
1. Standardise your currency
2. Build a fighter jet
3. Develop your own GPS system
4. Confront Microsoft
I'm waiting for China and India to have a go at them...
be able to survive one attack but multiple attacks may fell it. Maybe Asia can go next.
-- Karma Karma Karma Karma, Karma Chameleon - Boy George
According to both the CNN and BBC articles, the EU is having an issue with M$ 'using its market postion in an abusive manner to crush competitors to its Windows Media Player.' According to the articles, those competitors happen to be Quicktime and RealPlayer. Now it might just be me, but i am pretty sure that neither one of those players has ever been a real competitor to Media Player. Realplayer has certainly tried to beat them in the realm of streaming content, but due to such little things as shit for quality and lack of content, they didn't do so well. Quicktime has really always been a Mac format, and was brought over to windows for some reason or other, and while it has done fairly well, never really got quite big, despite the fact that it used compression tech that was way ahead of its time back in the day, but with divx, xvid and 3vix out, just cant really compete anymore. So to sum up, the EU is accusing M$ of abusing its market power to include a product that is evolving with technology to 'put down' legacy media players?? That's like accusing an accounting firm of using something other than COBOL to write the latest version of accounting software because its not fair to COBOL, despite the fact that it's a dead horse being held up by poles.
I have no regrets, this is the only path.
My whole life has been "UNLIMITED BLADE WORKS"
Quite simple, I feel, that you are, abusing, punctuation; to the sorts, of, degrees: That make my head. Hurt.
Anyway, both Netscape and Microsoft "appropriated" Mosiac. Internet Explorer to this day still has and NCSA/Spyglass copyright notice in it.
Still, I have to agree with you on the campaign finance reform thing. Political donations should be paid into a centralised party fund, "blind" to the reciever and all gifts should be fully declared by the reciever, every six months.
The chances of this actually happening are nil.
Nope thats just every country in the wolrd but at least the capitalist game is consistent Yep consistently bad even at being capitalists
Saying Apple is better than MS is like saying Botulism is better than rabies.
Mplayer for linux of course comes with all the codecs but windows users gotta install the fucking players with all their spyware and bloat.
But I then imidiatly install someting like Bsplayer (fast opening from linux shares) or Media player classic (good fullscreen controls and no osd crap). I think all of the three mentioned players are worse then crap, the orginal windows media player was okay but lately they all seem to go out of their way to obfuscate the simple playing of video files.
I had hopes for the Helix project from realmedia, hopes that you now could simply get the codecs. This however doesn't seem to have happened.
Am I the only one who finds it slightly odd that these companies attempt to charge money twice? Once to the encoder (content creator) and once more for the player (consumer)? In the real world you only get to charge once for a product. Imagine that Shell said Ford had to have a license to use their fuel. Or that Bridgestone came to youre house for payment for the tires that came with youre car.
Oh well, serves me right for still having my main machine run windows I suppose. (everything else is linux but I love my games to much)
MMO Quests are like orgasms:
You may solo them, I prefer them in a group.
don't you mean :
fire bad, tree pretty
I would, but your mom was not available.
I'd like to see them go up to Apple and say "make it so that linux can't run on your computers or else we won't give you OEM Windows licenses" and not get laughed out of the building.
more legal action. Now. How many times does the dancing monkeyboy have to go right in the middle of the carpet before someone will rub his nose in it?
... I am Swiss!
So far the best article on this issue I could find is here. What the article dowsn't say, but the Bloomberg radio commentary did mention, the EU seems to be financing its budget deficit by imposing fines, which makes the fairness of the whole process a little questionable.
it's always the marketing!
...
... funny.
... i bet you the article they are putting up to sue micosoft is intierlly writen in Microsoft WORD ;)
;)
... ;)
// EU-parliment=mad cow parliment.
i think this is a *look-and-feel* from the
meat farmers (cows, pigs,chickens,etc...)
if everything would be UNIX still, we wouldn't HAVE windows media player, AGP, sound cards, internet chat, free e-mail and internet for all
it's not like somebody is perfect. everybody makes mistakes.
put trying to stake microsoft is a really bad idea, because, again, the dumb asses in eu-parlimanet using nothing put M$ are shotting themselfs in the foot.
good thing M$ has been saving all this money (and not paying shareholders) for times like this, when the vultures are getting hungry.
we have all the mad-cow diseases and and huge deficit (aha!) in all europe countries put it's nothing comperd to the "abuse" of microsoft
seems it's another scam to get to some money
maybe we can come up with a new kind of economy.
first we pay alot of money to get the company in question to become a monopoly. then we sue them and get all the money back
i long for the good old times when we had to RENT our computers from international business maschines and could not own them
it's always cool to have a blind man judge your
handwriting. EU=mad cows
more atomic tests, less talk please.
Will their inspectors actually be able to find WMP?
HH
--
I can use mozilla as my (default) browser if I want to, or play mpgs per default with quicktime. If red hat had a monopoly-like market share, then shipping a free media player (the KmovieKplayer 9) would be monopoly abuse because it would limit sales of 3rd party media players?
And if microsoft would have media player on a separate download/cd people would buy Real's player? Even if microsoft would give it away? Or can't they give it away because that too is monopoly abuse? Is the "abuse" from microsoft really caused to any major extent by "features" in their products? Don't think so...
Did that sound pro m$? I better put the flameproof suit on.
Quicktime isn't a file format as such, and there's way more to it than the player which most end-users see. Quicktime is a full media API, the first one that I'm aware of (though I imagine someone will correct me there - perhaps an SGI user?).
An example of a Quicktime use. An old Mac freeware app I wrote, Startupfrills, set a startup picture to show as a Mac booted up. It could handle JPEG, GIF, PNG, TIFF, TGA...you name it. And I never wrote a single line of image format-handling code. Just told Quicktime that I had a media file and would like an image data structure please. The same can be done for movie file formats, sound...a full blown multimedia API.
A better analogy in the MS world would be DirectShow. Not that I've done any DirectX development, but as I understand it you can add support for new file formats to the existing MS APIs via DirectShow filters. From then on, your MS API-based media app can make use of the new file format without ever knowing what it is.
Cheers,
Ian
I believe it's the GREEK way to put things in people's asses.
yes but what is better for a society: consistently bad, or inconsitently not bad!
The interesting thing about the forthcoming EU fine (they're _not_ going to escape it at this stage) is that they've got a history of setting the size of the fine at levels commensurate with the wrong-doing and size of the company concerned. In the case of Microsoft, this could well mean more than a billion dollars.
"None are more hopelessly enslaved than those who falsely believe they are free." -- Goethe
The problem is that Real/Quicktime would have to be much *better*, not just equivalent to WMP in order to gain any market share.
In the next couple of years big money is going to be made selling content over the internet and companies such as Disney who don't have a real vested interest in one technology over another are going to distribute content in (DRM-enabled?) Windows Media Player format because they can safely assume everyone has it on their computer.
It's going to be the hard and fast defacto standard not because of any inherent quality of product but just because of bundling with their monopoly product. Not only is this bad for companies like Real who have an unfair playing field (they have to do /better/ than MS) but it'll be a problem for users of alternative OSs because we won't have the defacto player for all this new whizzo content and our players will all be playing catch up.
More power to the EU's elbow!
Struggling to find a day everyone can make? WhenShallWe.com
There is no question as to why we are having such a heatwave in Europe. Bill is sending the heat from hell to punish them.
In other news today, it was announced that grass is green and the sky is blue.
I mean, talk about stating the bleeding obvious.
I guess in here book Capitalism, the part she went on about the EU never really understanding it [Capitalism] was right.
Microsoft has not done anything that the market has not allowed them to do, they are not a monopoly, you can use Linux, or BUY A MAC! Hey I own a powerbook, and personally I think Windows [all BUT W2k] is crap; so I'll use Mac OS X.2 and FreeBSD on my computers.
Perhaps if you saved your money, then over time you'd be able to buy a nice new G5 and break away from Microsoft.
The last time I checked we all said we all wanted to live in a Free world, well how is going after a company that just did what it's best at, going to prove anything?
Microsoft is good at making money, that's all; if you can't understand that then I recommend you read Rand some more. Yea sure their products may be crap, but people buy them and not Linux.
Apple works just as well, yet people don't really buy them, why? Aside from the price, Jobs does not know how and when and where to sell things. Perhaps if he listened to Rush for once and just advertised...
Lt. J.G. Pliskin.
That one is good punishment. Because they abused their low end desktop monopoly, force them to buy their competitor's media players and include them all without charge. Ogg Vorbis could set a reasonable price for prcompiled binarys, I'm sure. Everyone but Microsoft would win.
More than that, I like their reesoning about leveraging. It was as simple to prove as asking people buying low end servers for their low end desktops if "interoperability" and secret interfaces made a difference in their purchasing. Bingo, nothing meritorius there, just a bunch of crap they won't share and a dominant market position.
The proposed solution, to force M$ to open up their interfaces is great stuff. Less time would have to be dedicated to deciphering their crap. I wonder if they can force NTFS open too, after all the inability to write to the file system is a hinderence.
M$ may try to wriggle out of this by making EU only software that plays nice, but they won't get far. They can not escape the black eye solid reasoning is giving them. Solid reasoning from impartial parties and published with all the resources of a large govenment.
It's just more reason to ditch M$ all together. Who needs a low end desktop anyway? That would be the best thing of all.
Friends don't help friends install M$ junk.
4 years of investigating MS and this is all they could come up with? Looks like the EU has an over-abundance of greedy bureaucrats who want to perpepuate their careers.
Go ahead and force MS to sell those in the EU a copy w/o WMP. Now EU users will be forced to pay $30 to $40 to Real, Music Match, Quicktime, etc. to get the same functionality they get for free with WMP.
I use MediaPlayer, and there's nothing special about it whatsoever. I use it simply because it works most of the time, and most importantly, I haven't seen ANYTHING better.
If there was something better out there, I'd use it.
WinAMP is buggy and has a clumsy interface, it plays mpegs back with incorrect colors sometimes, for instance.
Quicktime is a crippled piece of crap and I'm not going to cut Apple a cheque just to see if it's better.
The less said about RealPlayer, the better.
Everything else either has annoying spyware or nagscreens or missing features. They can pass all the laws they want saying that MSFT cannot ship WMP with Windows, and it'll be the first thing I download and install after setting up a box. Nothing else works right.
There's a HUGE opportunity, as I see it, to create something better. I'd be all over it, and so, I'm sure, would many others. But, know what? I wouldnt pay for it. They can make their money through licensing encoders to content providers, not by shoving ads in my face or charging me a subscription.
I feel the same way about the browser thing. I'm not forced to use IE, I only do so because it works and theres no compelling reason to install something else - except for goofy ideological arguments about Free vs free.
I don't need no instructions to know how to rock!!!!
Microsoft did have a hold on the computing world for quite some time and still do to some extent, but it's not a monopoly. The resurgence of Apple has made a dent, if even a small one, in Billy's power. I don't see them fading off anytime soon. Sure I buy PC's right now for the office, but my next home computer will probably be a Mac. Linux is basically the new kid on the block, but with so many places out there pimping for them, it has to cause a ripple some time. Maybe I'm just naive, but I just don't see the anti-trust case as it stands right now being able to hold up. I will place my hope in the free-market can take down Microsoft the same way it built the complany.
Best Web Based Game
No chance of any competition in that model. Ever.
A big danger is DRM being added into the chain, then Microsoft would have 100% say over who makes files, who reads files, when and where they can read files, and who can make programs that read, write or modify files. And just to make the lock-in complete, 100% control over determining the life span of the file format. No more 100 year old archives.
If the EU starts down that path by using encumbered file formats, it steps on the rights of countries where access to government information is a constitutional right. Sweden and Finland are two such countries where information has been open by default as part of the constitution. There may be other countries, but even countries with weaker freedom of information need to use open formats.
Beta is broken and the link to classic doesn't work. Stop wasting our time or there won't be anybody left here.
Wordperfect
Wordstar
er
they are all so dead I can't even remember their names
There are places where the networks are not touching,and there are places where they are-Boeing's Lori Gunter
First of all, it's easy to not install Windows Media Player, or replace it with another App. See "Program Access and Defaults" icon that is on the start menu!
Second, Microsoft is accused of leveraging its dominant position from PCs into low-end servers, the computers which provide core services to PCs in corporate networks.
The EU wants Microsoft to disclose more code to its competitors, to allow them to make sure their systems can work together with Microsoft's rather than being disadvantaged by Microsoft's dominant market position.
Why on Earth should microsoft have to do this? I just can think of no explanation why they should be FORCED to give away their code and secrets. If the EU forces this through, it's going to be the deathknell of traditional commercial software in Europe--will every other company who has a dominant App have to open the code or be given the boot from Europe?
And why is no one in Europe worried about Apple? OS X includes EVEN MORE apps than does Windows--the only difference is not as many people use OS X.
Dude, take a look around. Microsoft is selling real computer HARDWARE now. You might argue that this is no different from Apple, but Apple doesn't have its own internet service, game box, news network, major Office package, CRM, media center software, tablet PC OS, Palm platform, enterprise server solution... I could go on and on. The real deal is that monopolies do not protect us from market abuses like ill-planned software. Only good competition can do that. That's why the litigation is so important, and we can thank Teddy Roosevelt for that.
Ahhh, but they could go up to apple and say. Don't do XXXX or YYYY, and if you do then the next version of Office for the Mac will be years late and run like crap.
They have hung that over Apples head for a long time. That is what kept IE on the Mac instead of Netscape for many years.
Also what exactly is the marketshare for Macintosh systems these days? Even the graphic shops I go in to are starting to use Wintel machines (not that I think they should use them).
As far as Linux goes, as long as it is free and has the large number of developers working on it, it will continue to make inroads in to Microsoft's monopoly. This is ONLY because people are generally cheap. For the life of me I can't get people to try out OpenOffice, but once I explain that Microsoft Office will cost them >$200.00, suddenly they want to take a long hard look at it.
I fully expect Microsoft to do everything they can to protect their monopoly, as they have done so in the past. Their history has shown that they are not above breaking laws to continue their stranglehold on the software industry, however at this point and time they have little threat of Linux, Apple, OpenOffice on the desktop or office level. This will probably change once more governments start using free software, but at this time they are still the 800 pound gorilla. It also shows why they fight so hard not to loose any government business to Linux.
The more I learn about science, the more my faith in God increases.
It has all the features that Windows has
I knew there was a reason I hadn't bought one
There are places where the networks are not touching,and there are places where they are-Boeing's Lori Gunter
"I wouldnt pay for it."
Isn't that kind of the point? M$'s anti-competitive behaviour (ie. bundling WMP w/Windows) is stopping sales of other products.
The only anti-competitive Microsoft action that is relevant to this is keeping secret the file and streaming formats used by Media Player
I don't believe the EU really wants those opened, as this would hurt DRM, which the EU is generally sympathetic to.
There is nothing wrong with including a media player in an operating system, any more than including a file browser, or a set of printer drivers. If they were operating a "Windows ain't done till RealPlayer won't run" policy that would be different, but I've not heard that alleged.
Microsoft's real offenses are, as ever, in the fields of dishonest marketing FUD and putting pressure on third parties to disfavour competitors. Most of which is quite likely to be technically legal, at least to the extent that can be proved.
I fear this move is motivated by a general US-bashing sentiment rather than any sincere grievance. While it is possible that Free Software could benefit as a side effect of a transatlantic trade war, the costs would probably outweigh the benefit.
Realplayer has certainly tried to beat them in the realm of streaming content, but due to such little things as shit for quality and lack of content, they didn't do so well.
For the longest time "shit for quality" made me hate RealPlayer...but have you seen the newest ones? Awesome quality...heck, it was even good enough to be included in a doom9 codec comparison. So "lack of content" might be because people won't use might be because they remember the "shit for quality" days or because of the competition from media player, I don't know, personally I think media player's codec (wmv) isn't all that big myself, but I guess popularity is increasing.
Quicktime...while it has done fairly well, never really got quite big
Hold on a second...what media content sites do you browse? Almost every online clip is in quicktime...movie trailers, fan movies...you get your eventual real video clips now and then (most of them old ones from the crap quality days) and if you visit a microsoft site, you get some wmv, but that's still the least common.
Microsoft hasn't been offering much competition in the codec department (although it's been pushing the new windows media 9 a lot, to the point where T2 Extreme Edition comes with the entire movie encoded in that format). Now...using the player...it's compatible with divx, mpeg, wmv, and a whole bunch of other formats except for quicktime and real video, and it comes installed with your OS, so people don't bother looking at the other players to play the formats media player can handle, and I guess that's the "unfair competition".
Warning: Opinions known to be heavily biased.
Microsoft bundles things like IE and WMP so users have a browser and media player when they install their own OS. Taking them out is not the solution, since many will be left without such things. Forcing the company to stick competitors products in their own product is not necessarily the way to go, but is perhaps a solution to all the bitching and moaning going on.
Should KDE be forced to remove Konquerer or its various KDE-installed media players? Sure, there's other choices outside the KDE RPMs (or whatever distribution method you use), but people have a choice of OSes, too - don't install it and install linux instead.
This whole thing has gotten out of hand, IMO. I guess if a company is successful, they obviously must be doing something illegal, huh?
I thought they were going to make the tight integretion of MSIE in windows. Yet the first thing browsing to windowsupdate.com gives you is a popup telling you you need MSIE to run the updates from their site. So how is that?
I really don't think so. People sometime complain that if we achieve the goal of killing MS, that we'll lose all the innovation they contribute.
Frankly, this is bull. You want facts?
Read http://microsuck.com/content/whatsbad.shtml
-------
"In times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act."
-- George Orwell
You know, if they paid more corporation tax maybe they wouldn't be in such hot water.
They can't use the line "but we pay X in tax to the govt., we're good for the local economies"
rather than "we cost US jobs by having our products packaged in Mexico for a pittance and we pay as little tax as possible"
Instead you've got the "Gates Institute" and free condoms for Indians, not much of a payoff.
They should have learned the McDonalds way and properly invested in grass roots so that people think they are cool when they just poison children for a living.
There are places where the networks are not touching,and there are places where they are-Boeing's Lori Gunter
At least consistently bad is predictable, where as inconsistently good is beyond chaotic - almost emotional.
1. Take the names of the US and EU
2. Remove any common letters, leaving one instance of the letter then rearrange into a new word.
US EU
S E U
Answer SUE!
This confirms the Commission's preliminary conclusion that Microsoft's tying of Windows Media Player to the Windows operating system weakens competition on the merits, stifles product innovation, and ultimately reduces consumer choice.
Well... here is my take...
Users like one-stop shopping. You buy a computer, you can surf the web, you can listen to music, you can play games, you can do all that stuff without having to first hook up to the Internet to download even *more* stuff or buy even *more* stuff to make it work like you expect that it should.
Few things I have ever seen infuriate a customer more than buying something and then realizing that what they bought was incomplete and that they have to get/buy even more stuff to make it do what they want.
The inclusion of IE in Windows was a big hullabaloo. At the time it was introduced, it was very much inferior to the other offerings out there, but did allow the user to browse the web. So, Microsoft saw that a browser with extentions could replace the file/system viewer Explorer so they merged the two things - far easier to have one thing that does both than have two development teams doing basically the same things maintaining two seperate code bases. That's why IE became integral to the OS - because it was also the viewer for everything from the file system to the control panel to a file viewer. Removing IE would remove the capability to do any of that.
Having IE bundled didn't prevent you from loading any other browser that was your favorite, but it did offer (some say) superior Internet Browser features to others at the time so users felt little reason to use anything else. It was good enough for users, they didn't have to get/buy more software to make their pooter work so they used it. Very simple.
Same with MediaPlayer. Users expect to be able to listen to music or play videos on their computer now from the instant they plug it into the wall. Microsoft delivers a way for them to do it. They improve it, and now it is "good enough" for most folks and they don't have to get/buy something extra to have this functionality. Very simple.
Personally, I wouldn't use/buy ANY computer that didn't come bundled with some form of web browser and a media player of some sort. Very frequently, no matter the OS I choose, the one that comes bundled is good enough to do exactly what I want to do (I'm not an audiophile and I don't have special web browsing needs like special sites that are browser specific. I do like WinAMP better than MediaPlayer though so I tend to install it on all the Windows boxes I use but the default stuff delivered with whatever Linux distro that I have loaded is good enough.)
So, does it stifle competition? I guess it does in the way that there is no need for me to buy yet-another DVD viewer program for my PS2. (Where is all the hubbub about that? The PS2 is in a very dominant position in that market.) However, these functions are becoming basic services that *have* to be delivered with an OS these days for the common users.
Again, most users just want to use what they buy without additional fuss (having to get even more stuff to make it work in basic functions like web browsing and playing music/videos).
In some ways, computer OSs these days are evolving more towards set-top boxes in many ways as the list of "basic services" the thing has to provide become longer and longer. There was a time when listening to music, watching videos, and such things were add-ons. You got these apps when you bought a video card or a sound card. Today, most users consider these to be basic functionality rather than add-ons. An OS that does not deliver these services in at least some basic capacity will not succeed. All the Linux distros know this as well and likewise deliver these basic services.
No, the difference is that Apple's software is bundled with the OS, not a part of the OS, like Microsoft does with it's software (i.e. Explorer and WMP).
Currently Linux run on ~100% of all desktop & server PCs. Now if Microsoft is in a market position to reduce Linux platforms from ~100% to ~5%, I'd say that's a monopoly position...
If no one posted it already, this link is interesting. It points to the summary of the complaints that started said case.
I was just looking forward to hear from it again.
17 pages, but if one cares to read, there is much more into it than "Media Player bundled with Windows is evil".
-><- no
good. it's about time. i was awestruck when, after the browser trials, m$ threw cd burning, etc into its bundled media player, and even more so when they weren't brought right back into court.
good.
also, i remember hearing what i thought was the best solution to the m$ antitrust problems....
any technology they invent they can bundle. you'll have a nice blank cd for $189.95
!(^((ri)|(mp))aa$)
just take SMB as an example
There are places where the networks are not touching,and there are places where they are-Boeing's Lori Gunter
Actually, the reason that the trials were even considered at the time was because Bill Gates REFUSED to fund any political candidate. This seriously pissed off democrats (who rely on large donations from the rich), and thus the ongoing court battles through the 90s.
Refusing to pay off political candidates can be just as bad as 'funding' them.
While bundling a browser and a media player (and a couple of other features) with a browser may be monopolistic; if I am going to pay for an OS, I want that thing to be able to open damn near ANYTHING I want. If I formatted the hard drive, and installed the OS, but couldn't go online IMMEDIATELY, or play a dvd, I would be pissed.
If people want to break microsofts stranglehold, they'll have to offer better, easier to use products. I sure as HELL ain't paying for realplayer or quicktime, cause they lack functionality and/or are a pain in the ass to use (realplayer esp). Firebird is now my browser of choice, but Windows Media Player is the best video player on the market for the end user. (Winamp is for MP3s)
How is it that Internet Explorer, Windows Media Player, and Microsoft Outlook can come out of nowhere and domininate before anyone can blink? Why is it that many OEMs get queasy when customers ask about Windows-free computers? Why is it that the only growing software companies do so by packaging otherwise free products? Why is it that Microsoft's means of competing against Linux are through the legal system via SCO rather than competing in the free market?
Microsoft are an abberation--a cancer--on the world's markets and governments. When corporations become more powerful than their governments, the trump card lies with the people. If the governments won't or can't respond, then consumers everywhere need to make a conscience decision to support diversity, competition, and freedom.
Each purchase of a Microsoft product is a vote for a proprietary technocracy with a Microsoft Certified ruling class. Do you really want that? I don't!
Healthcare article at Kuro5hin
From the EU's press release:
"As regards remedies, the Commission has provisionally identified the core disclosure obligations that would be indispensable for Microsoft's competitors in low-end servers to achieve full interoperability with Windows PCs and servers. Microsoft would be obliged to reveal the necessary interface information so that rival vendors of low-end servers are able to compete on a level playing-field with Microsoft."
So...Samba benefits. Anyone trying to interoperate with Exchange benefits (I'd presume MAPI would be one of the protocols). People trying to do integration with Active Directory Services benefit. That's the real meat of the notice. The media player is attracting attention, but it's not the most important half by far.
Cheers,
Ian
we'll get some $ out of them one way or another
There are places where the networks are not touching,and there are places where they are-Boeing's Lori Gunter
Right, and if only they'd have left Standard Oil alone, they'd have been no Great depression!
Yes, I am being sarcastic.
WMP a WMD? a few mixes: Weapon of Mass Player Windows [of] Mass Destruction Weapon of Media Destruction Windows Mass Player
Actually, this isn't really true. I'm not to sure on overall GDP, but the 2002 US GDP per capita was 150% higher than the EU GDP per capita. Thus, the EU may have a higher GDP overall, but has far less spending power per person.
Furthermore, the very high tax rates in the EU eat up a lot of the sectors spending power. Couple this with very high unemployment... you get the idea.
Try not to be so pro EU that you lose sight of reality.
Nice try anonymous coward, did you even read my post? It's easy, painless, NOT HARD to uninstall windows media player, or, replace it with something else (winamp...quicktime...realplayer...there is no shortage of media players for windows)
Of all the areas to attack them on, the Media Player is a strange one.
Firstly, it is probably the best out of Real Player and Quicktime so really I cannot see anyone wanting to swap Media Player for a crappy RP which pops up every two minutes and basically complains if you don't use it or upgrade it! Quicktime isn't really a big player in any event on the PC for any formats really. So, even if they do succeed in getting Media Player as something you have to 'opt in' to installing I'd guess that the experienced users won't use RP or QT.
Secondly, Media Player is integral to Windows - certainly XP. From the Windows Explorer you can preview media, view films, burn CD's etc etc with it. Ok, I suppose you could take out this functionality but as someone who uses it a lot I don't see why -I- should have my OS experience reduced just so I can get Real Player telling me I have messages every few hours.
Thirdly, as I think some of the other posters have said, there is a gradual blurring between PCs and TVs/hi fi nowadays and it is realistic to be able to have a media player as part of the OS.
I know I will be shot down for this, but the target market for Windows doesn't want to have to select which media player they want - most people won't have a clue anyway - they just want to go to 'My Music' and click on the MP3 and listen to some music whilst they browse the web or whatever.
They certainly have abused their monopoly, but this is just a typical EU style charge (I live in England). A lot of hot air, lots of reports, a good idea but poorly enacted.
Microsoft can afford to ignore this, and they'll just pay the fine and 'look at how we can open up' and do nothing.
The EU cannot stop them trading in the EU at all! Anyone who seriously thinks that is plain daft! I mean, I guess around 95%+ of PC's etc run MS software and if they have to stop trading it would have such a serious impact on business it simply won't happen!
Remember, it's the one the Israeli's bombed.
Some fire is not hot...you insensitive clod?
Fire jugglers and such often use chemicals that burn at low tempuratures, so that it's not as dangerous as it looks, and they wont burn anything if they mess up.
Mplayer for linux of course comes with all the codecs but windows users gotta install the fucking players with all their spyware and bloat. Actually, mplayer works fine under windows. You can compile and run it with cygwin or use the new MingW binary (no stdin/stdout piping, but no extra dlls either) We have been using it on a project - even patched it and it worked well. http://www.mplayerhq.hu/homepage/design6/news.html
-- Put crudely, the world is an extremely large problem instance. (Russel/Norvig Artificial Intelligence)
'Mono' means One. 'Culture' is obviously something you don't have. Now go crawl back into your hole.
"It also would have to either offer a version of Windows without the Media Player, or agree to carry rival players with Windows." I really hope they don't decide to include rival players, I dislike Realplayer's junk, and do not want any of it included in my OS (Yes sadly enough I do use Windows primarily).
...from the "some companies are STILL worse than SCO" department.
Hah, funny you should mention Standard Oil, I just made another post about it.
like i said, it wasn't the only factor
the non-MS developers had nowhere to turn to for help, they couldn't just ring their colleagues in the Microsoft Windows API section. They were lucky if they even had the internet (it was a few years away from widespread adoption, certainly hardly anyone in Europe had heard of it let alone wanted it). We were using pay by the second compuserver or dialing international BBSs.
That is all a hinderence to development and the compeition suffered fatal injuries.
Wordperfect was the market leader and where is it now?
It can't just be that Wordpefect programmers were stupid.
There are places where the networks are not touching,and there are places where they are-Boeing's Lori Gunter
SCO's FUD campaign didn't survive five minutes in the German legal system, Microsoft is not going to get government permission to do anything the want to like in the U.S., and I don't think O.J. would be playing golf right now if the trial had been anywhere in Europe. America's legal system in increasingly becomming a liability to the U.S: With a bit of luck, Europe will be free of the lead weight of the Microsoft monoploy in a few years, while Americans will still be paying their Redmond tax.
You can have "one-stop shop" without bundling IE and WMP.
Here's the idea: M$ would license their barebone core OS (or whatever you call it) and any company could ship their own OS bundle, "powered by Windows technology" kinda thing. You would have AOL Windows (with ICQ, WinAmp bundled), Real Windows (with Real Player).
How's that?
Windows Media Player is merely a front-end for the underlying Windows Multimedia system.
Get the legal system out of the software world, they obviously don't understand any of the concepts.
Case closed.
If the EU can get them to release code affecting interoperability with other OS (like their CIFS implementation) it would be a boon to Samba and linux fans everywhere. Or if they had to publish their MAPI protocol it would be a big boost for projects like Open Groupware.
Strengthening either of these projects creates opportunities for enterprises to switch to other back-of-the-house technology without violently uprooting their desktop users (just yet...)
Who did what now?
What would you call someone in the EU who lives in a 3,000 square foot house on a half-an-acre lot, and who owns three automobiles?
Decry the environmental impact all you want, but here in the US that's not considered rich or even upper-middle-class - that's pretty close to average.
I'm not forced to use IE, I only do so because it works and theres no compelling reason to install something else...
How about the fact that IE doesn't check the validity of security certificates on the server, making literally any encrypted connection easily hackable.
Any time you've done online banking, shopping with a credit card, paying bills, etc.etc with Internet Explorer, you've been potentially exposed to having your financial details stolen from under your nose due to Microsoft's horrific security.
Yes, this can happen with other browsers, too, but then it requires a great deal of effort on the cracker's part, including breaking cipher keys, without ever really being sure they've got it right. IE just requires you to be able to intercept communication. That's it.
Considering the insane number of vulnerable Windows servers out there, any one of which could have a bot listening for financial-like traffic through it's network, it would be simple to listen in on this traffic.
That's why I don't use IE....and I don't consider it to be a goofy ideological argument.
Think about it: IE has a massive market share for the past 4-5 years, and identity theft is increasing by leaps and bounds. Think there's a connection? Maybe, maybe not. But considering this security hole in Windows, I'm not willing to take the risk.
(I know, you're going to say the hole is in IE, not Windows....but IE is a part of Windows, according to Microsoft, so it's a hole in Windows, according to Microsoft...)
That could mean tax cuts in Europe!
If Google really cared they would fix Android Chrome to reflow text, instead of discriminating
The exercise of pre existing power does not represent an expansion of government power.
The law is wrong. It should be changed.
No, anti-competitive practices are wrong. They put people out of business - that's means people lose jobs and have their lives fucked around. Anti-competitive practices are also designed to bring more than fair market value for goods and services. In the end, everyone pays for them. If a free market is good, then what Microsfoft does is very bad. Preventing this kind of racketeering is as good a government exercise as the prevention of murder or stock fraud. Yes, economic upheaval can be fatal.
Like you, I have my doubts about the way government regualtion plays out. In the case of phone and electric service, we are moving toward unregulated but protected monopolies, the very worst case. In automobiles, we have government protection and even cash bailouts. In steel, there's essentially a monopoly poorly protected against forgein makers. In software, we have the spectical of government violating all purchasing sense and sole sourcing six years worth of purchasing to some of the worst software available.
The intent, especially in the Microsoft case, is correct. Don't confuse intent with the way Anti-trust laws are not followed through perverted.
Doing nothing does just that and that might be fatal for the US computer industry. The glass making industry never gained significant competion in the US, did it? It took the invention of a whole new light material, plastic, and a shipping revolution to bring competition to bottle making. If Microsoft is uninhibited, they might be might be able to pull off Paladium, which would end all software and hardware competition on just about all platforms. It is by no means certian that chip makers will be able to resist Paladium in the commodity market. The alternatives are expensive custom hardware from makers like Sun, worth it to companies but not individuals. The xbox is a peek into Microsfoft's dream world. The implications for all software and hardware makers are obvious.
Friends don't help friends install M$ junk.
1) If the company is obviously abusing it's near or total monopoly, definitely
2) They're not talking about shitting down MS, they're talking about stiff fines and (hopefully useful) regulations for MS to follow.
3) It's not simply "the government" since any result will be no doubt be put before the courts.
How is MS one of the best (US) companies? It's certainly not at the forefornt of innovations or reliability. If you want to help your economy the last thing you want is a lot of MS like companies:
1) MS is ridiculously profitable precisely *because* it abuses it's monopoly (in any free market those profit margins would have been squeezed by a nice little price war agree ago).
2) MS doesn't use all that capital very productively. Apart from employing relatively few people for a company of their revenue size, they tend to use their massive cash reserves to enter new sectors where they stifle innovation by (trying to) destroying the competition with mediocre products at low prices.
The question whether or not MS has competition is not the issue. The issue is whether MS abuses it's (near) monopoly position to keep competition down (both in the OS and in other markets)
I dont do any online banking or shopping. And even if I did, I see no reason to place any more trust in mozilla or opera than in IE. The problem is the web in general.
I'll believe in eCommerce when IPSec becomes ubiquitous.
I don't need no instructions to know how to rock!!!!
Actually, if your code is properly modularized there's not problem removing a browser a media player a GUI or any other component. The problem is that M$ has spagetti codeded their dinky browser so their computers won't even boot without one. I'd say that limits the usefulness of the OS. People who would like to use it as a server platform with they could turn off most of these "features" aka services in the free world.
I can use mozilla as my (default) browser if I want to, or play mpgs per default with quicktime.
That's very hard to do and Microsoft takes every chance to undo your preference. I know, I tried with Windows 2000. I wanted to look at a CD with Portable Net Graphics and AVI movies on it. IE flunked both, Mozilla worked flawlessly. IE did not make Quicktime it's prefered viewer and WMP would not display PNG of AVI. That's pathetic because AVI is M$ format closely related to WMP formats and PNG is an openly published format. Mozilla was not the default browser and keeping it up to date is like hell on an M$ box. Just getting Mozilla requires a broadband connection, and knowledge you are unlikely to have in the Windoze world.
If red hat had a monopoly-like market share, then shipping a free media player (the KmovieKplayer 9) would be monopoly abuse because it would limit sales of 3rd party media players?
No, Red Hat does not have a dominant market position and Red Hat can not prevent others from using Kmovieplayer or any other free software anyway they would like. Microsoft has both of these.
if microsoft would have media player on a separate download/cd people would buy Real's player?
Real used to have a dominant makret position.
Did that sound pro m$?
No, just ignorant. A typical Astroturf troll at worst.
I better put the flameproof suit on.
Don't bother.
Friends don't help friends install M$ junk.
One has to wonder how much of this is motivated by Europe's blatently obvious attempts at erecting non-tarriff barriers, especially for technology imports, and particularly with the US.
...-.-
Microsoft has as much of a monopoly as consumers give them through direct software purchases, or indirect purchases through PC vendors they support. The solution is not litigation to protect ignorant consumers from themselves. The solution is education to inform consumers of other, possibly more suitable software solutions. As it stands, consumers are choosing Microsoft, and governments should not interfere with that choice.
If Microsoft's software is as inferior as we, the open source software community, say it is, then it should not be difficult to compete against that software based on quality, features, and usability. If open source software is not up to snuff, then people will either directly or indirectly choose Windows and we need to work on the quality of our products. If open source software is good enough, though, then we don't need to waste our time supporting litigation that will at most be a minor setback for Microsoft. We need to, instead, work on marketing strategies.
In any case, supporting litigation against Microsoft is a waste of valuable resources that could be better spent improving open source software and educating users so they can make informed choices about the software they purchase and use.
It's not just a problem of what's installed. It's also a problem of what can't be removed. IE can not be uninstalled from Windows. (Before anyone points to ways to uninstall or hide the desktop icon try removing the core DLLs. It'll either block it because they're in memory or crash your OS.) At least up to Win2K the media player can not be completely uninstalled either.
A linux distro may come with only one browser or media player, but no one commercial distro has been labeled a desktop monopoly. Being a monopoly changes the rules.
Developers: We can use your help.
punk
You can't very well blame Microsoft for Netscape sucking.
And MS is in no way preventing anyone from installing Netscape.
It's pretty stupid to whine that MS should be the only OS available that shouldn't be allowed to include a browser and media player, etc. It's far from unreasonable to have those things included. If they started including Visual Studio, Office, and other major products then you might have a case.
Ben
Work Safe Porn
C'mon /.ers... I've about had it with the M$ legal battles.
If you are reading this page, then most likely:
a) You are not using Windows, so you really don't give a shit about M$ anyway (or the legal system, but I digress...) or
b) You are more than capable of removing/adding/modifying just about anything you want on your boxen.
Let's be honest: all M$ did was aggressively market their products. To sue them for acting like capitalists is be like trying to force General Motors affiliates to stop offering GMAC financing, or trying to force Toyota to stop offering Toyota brand CD players in their new vehicles.
I see more and more consumer products coming out with Linux installed -- should we sue them if a particular web browser is included in that installatoin? No.. we just remove it, ignore it, or use it. The same should apply to M$. I personally hate their Media player, and I refuse to use it. It took me a matter of minutes to D/L and install my favorite player, and I did it all without legal representation.
I truly hate the Real Software... It's bloated, loads slow, has all kinds of spyware, it's a horrible format... and you even have to pay for that adware bloat called "customized content"... I know there's a free player, but I wish Joe Average good luck finding it. I would never _ever_ want that stuff bundled with the OS, please. Same goes for the Quicktime player (had it crash on me quite frequently). Why not use something like Debian's dselect? I mean... the guys at M$ should be smart enough to code a selection list like this: "please tick the box of which software you want to use" and then a list of well known/used media players (Real, Qtime, Winamp, WMP, whathaveyou) That way they comply with the EU and leave the users with a clue a choice... Ofcourse they would list WMP at the top and have it checked by default, but that's another story.
The best weapon of a dictatorship is secrecy, but the best weapon of a democracy should be the weapon of openness.
troll?
...anyways, read before you mod, please!
how about insightful,funny,underrated
Microsofts desktop monopoly lies in MS Office not Media Player. If you try flogging Linux to businesses the first question isn't "can I play my Windows Media Player files it's can I open my MS Office docs on it with 100% accuracy.
EU missed the point, altogether!
Hmmmmmm..... Deep fried and look like Squirrel.
i can agree with that to a point. However with the arguement about browsers, I use opera7 and mozilla. i care about the free vs free, but the main compelling reason is the pop-up stoppers, serious privacy control you have with moz/opera and even though they may not be as fast, at least when moz crashes it doesn't take out the whole system.
re: integration of a web browser, gui shell and file explorer is a pretty stupid move IMHO.
-zo
Windows Media Devices = WMD
hmmm....maybe that age old 666 Gates rumor is true afterall.
Man am I bummed Anonymnous Coward!!! I thought I could trust you! :-)
Microsft pay YOU!
.
I'm just enjoying the non-SCO news . .
Sdelat' Ameriku velikoy Snova!
This may have just been a glitch in the BIOS, but when I installed a dual boot with Win2k and Linux on my Dell machine, I got a nice little error message saying that there was a severe problem with my hardrive, that I may loose all of my data, and to call Dell to get it replaced immediately. Dell of course (at the time, about 2 years ago) didn't support dual booting for home users at least. Finally, when the Tech showed up to swap my drive, he said that the only reason I got the error was some Dell proprietary crap that checks the boot record, and since it found LILO claimed the HD was screwed. Incredible!!!
Mono means one. Microsoft is not the only player in the field. There are plenty of others.
According to your economics 101 definition, yes, a monopoly is a single company with 100% marketshare. The legal definition of a monopoly, however, is quite different:
A monopoly power is defined as the ability of a business to control a price within its relevant product market or its geographic market or to exclude a competitor from doing business within its relevant product market or geographic market..
When MS's main product costs them less than 14% of their selling price to produce, you can hardly argue that they don't have the power to control the price within their market. Therefore, they are a monopoly. And an abusive one, at that.
Yes, vi is the best.
zz
ZZ
Whence? Hence. Whither? Thither.
That from http://europa.eu.int/rapid/start/cgi/guesten.ksh?p _action.gettxt=gt&doc=IP/03/1150%7C0%7CRAPID&lg=EN ;
hey note theres a .ksh in the URL - think they run korn shell cgi's in brussels? :)
Anyway that says OPEN YOUR API TOTALLY MS or face punishmnet. GREAT NEWS for interoperability! Samba and dozens of other programs will benefit immensely.
Of those to whom much is given, much is required.
Sorry to burst your bubble, but we've just deployed 100+ brand new Compaq Evo's and NONE of them had Realplayer on them.
Perhaps you could clarify which computers do come with Realplayer?
There are other companies trying to make money from media players, eg Apple, Real
Microsoft is denying them this opportunity by bundling their own software with the OS. Punters are less likely to go and buy from Apple or Real.
Competition is good. This is bad.
It's worse than that. When you install Windows Media Player it modifies the registry to claim that it can play QuickTime movies (for example) and then when you open a QuickTime movie it crashes, damaging the perceived stability of QuickTime. Likewise Microsoft modified their browser architecture at some point to break the QuickTime plugin.
Again, if you go through Microsoft's history, its actions are quite clearly malicious and anticompetitive...
"DOS 2 ain't done 'til Lotus won't run"
some eMachines at least, because the one my father got for his business had it on there in all its hijack-your-system glory. Until i got rid of it.
If you can't see the value in jet powered ants you should turn in your nerd card. - Dunbal (464142)
> we've just deployed 100+ brand new Compaq Evo's
I hate to break it to you, but they can't be "brand new", since Compaq no longer exists...
I'd like to know what freedoms Bill Gates has robbed from you.
Fucking moron.
1. Windows is not a monopoly. The existance of Linux refutes this claim. If you try to to refute this, good luck. The law is so vague (in the US anyway) that the definition is left to the whim of a judge.
2. Do you really want the govt. to dictate what defines a software product? What happens if Linux becomes the dominant OS? Do you really want to deal with lawsuits by the govt telling Red Hat they can't bundle xanim or mozilla because it's anticompetitve. The SCO case is bad enough. You're just setting yourselves up to get screwed in the future if you give the govt this power.
Vote for Pedro
IE can be removed without removing the "rendering engine"? If that were true, people would do it and same themselves many exploits. I've programed to the win95 API, so I know a little about their pathetic little GUI. That they refuse to seperate it from the browser is pure anti-competitive. I'll take WMP 9 over QT and Real any day because of its quality.
Now that is a total Astroturf. You pour scorn on any competitor, mostly based on the flaws of Microsoft's WMP, and praise that junk to the sky. WMP is the most advert laden junk I've seen since point cast, it requires you to beg M$ for "codecs" you used to own, it does not work well for any format including DVD, and you are full of shit. Media on Microsoft never worked well and is getting worse.
Friends don't help friends install M$ junk.
Please don't think that ALL Americans are as stupid as the Bush administration and its large corporate conglomerate benefactors would lead you to believe.
There remain a few who hope that maybe some day that intelligent and non-destructive domestic and foreign policy will once again be the favored politic in America.
Admidtedly, we must now look forward to suffering an ever weakening economy and currency, rising inflation to pay ever larger deficits (largely to foreign nationals in Japan, Saudi Arabia and Europe) that will ultimately make it impossible for us to support our current large military, just when we need our military most, and decreasing freedom.
But we hold out hope that the rest of the world won't give up on us. Our system is becoming increasingly weakend by the politization of civil life by zealots and idealogs and those who use their zealotry to make money at the expense of the body politic. EU anti-trust busters hold a glimmer of hope to those of us imprisoned in this new America, who's justice system has been corrupted by greed and politics. America may soon no longer be on the cutting edge of wealth and freedom in the world, but we can still use friends.
Somehow I accidentally moderated this as a troll, and I did not mean to. So I'm posting this to remove that errant mod point.
(Sorry, BFKrew!)
- - - -
The real Tetsujin 28 is a giant robot.
...it's because Bill Gates has mad warez skillz.
If you're happy and you know it read my blog
In other news the sky was blue again today . . .
I'm not american. Microsloft(sic)s chastation is good for MY economy. So there. GO! GO! EU!
posts like the parent are now just as obvious and predictable as the headlines.
even tertiary-level obviousness like this post are becoming cliche.
in the light of some questionable moderation, I suggest an option under the preferences tab to hide posts with noun-adjective combinations such as sky-blue, grass-green, water-wet etc.
Compaq Evo's
Go to www.compaq.com
This will redirect you to h18000.www1.hp.com
Click on the Business Desktops link
Click on the "hp Compaq Business Desktop d500 series"
Read the blurb that says "Compaq Evo D500 Series PCs continue to redefine industry-leading value with the latest technologies and updated processor speeds. Other D500 Series features include:"
Sucks to be you.
Wouldn't be the first time the EU abused it's monopoly...
This is pure evil. It's like Robinhood, taking from the rich and giving to the poor. The poor, Sun and Oracle, have not been cheated they simply cannot compete with Microsoft. Instead of innovating new technologies stay alive these companies are lobbying that Microsoft be punished for having made/acquired the innovations. This is not capitalism, this is socialism. Besides, any 10 year old can download a Real Player if they choose. Are these actions to protect the ignorant? I think not, they are trying to punish Microsoft for being successful.
Put them on your machine, and use them! Nothing is stopping anyone from doing that. Should it be MS's obligation to inform consumers about competitors products?
Should I have the right to sue Oracle and Sun for not including my software on their applications? Does Adobe have the right to sue Redhat for be bundled with GIMP?
What different laws apply? Every time I hear that phrase, it's just thrown around arbitrarily. "MS can't do this b/c they're a monopoly, and different rules apply."
I mean, I know the basic can't spread into a differnt market abusing monoply powers - but what's to define a market? Can MS never include any other piece of their own software with the OS because there's a market for it? Where do you draw the line?
but at this time they are still the 800 pound gorilla.
.... Oh.
Why do people keep saying this - in the wild they only get to 600 pounds. You are implying that Microsoft is a bloated, overweight
-- So now the world is a bit more stupid thanks to you.
because I'm obviously missing something, here.
Isn't most of this just a case of "if you don't like it, don't use it?"
I mean, there's nothing to say that if a segment of the business world didn't fully agree with MS licensing/OS/apps, what's stopping you from formatting your drives and installing your OS/apps of choice? Isn't that what competition is about? Creating new and better standards?
If you think you've got a better way of building a wheel, by all means do it. In time, people will discover your invention, and if it is truly better, adopt it and leave the old standard behind.
But the concept that private companies have to open up all their standards is a ludicrous one. They have the right to do whatever they want with their creation. You have the right to not use their creation if you don't think it's fair. You even have the right to create your own standard if you think you can do it better. And most of the time, if your standard is better, people will use it.
Look at MP3s vs WMAs. I like the MP3 format better than the WMA, so I use it instead. Simple. Worried about Windows Media Player? Why? It's a bundled sound app, so what? I don't like it, but I have the choice of downloading Winamp or any other of the plethora of media players out there. However, I also like having a built-in media player in the event that I'm at a computer that doesn't have net access. It's convenient. Some could make the case that convenience equals a stifling of competition, but I fail to see the merit in that. No one's forcing you to use WMA or WMP if you don't want to.
It's the same way with OSes. Don't like XP's licensing technique? Then by all means download any of the countless number of BSD or Linux builds. Lots of people do that every day. No one's stopping you.
Wow! 15 minutes and you removed all the other bloat and codecs too! Did you also remove IE?
I make all my money from selling these TV's so I give away a VCR with each TV purchase. I am losing money on the development and distribution of those VCR's, however, I just pass along that expense to my TV division and all is well. I just killed off the competition and have full control over the market.
Now imagine that your VCRs use a proprietary format, and don't play standard tapes. However, because 95% of households bought your TVs and got your VCRs for free, they all use your tapes. Now if Sony's movie division wants to release a movie on your tape format, they have to pay you a licensing fee. And they will, because of your monopoly. They don't have any (realistic) choice. The same goes for everyone who wants to release a tape on your format.
As far as i know WMP is embedded in windows like IE
if they are forced to remove it how much time and money do you think its going to cost in redevelopment work?
I would have never guessed that one... I mean, next you'll be telling me crazy things like "the sky is blue" or "the earth is brown."
Sarcasm aside, the only reason M$ got off here in the US is because out president is a corporate money whore. Anything for those wonderful execs, eh?
"An overwhelming majority of customers responding to this market enquiry highlighted that Microsoft's non-disclosure of interface information - necessary for competing servers to properly "talk" with Windows PCs and servers - did indeed artificially alter their choice in favour of Microsoft's server products. This behaviour is detrimental to competition on the merits."
And if they do disclose the interface information, the competition will flatten them.
Hello folks,
there are two different issues here, which got intermingled with the usual religious war.
Issue # 1: Can the European Commission act as it is doing?
Reply: yes, simply because the EC Treaty explicitely empowers it to do so, and naturally, also provides remedies to challenge any Commission decision (taking the case to the European Court of Justice). It can levy a substantial fine too. End of story-no further soul searching required on this branch.
Issue # 2: Is it (ethically, financially, politically, technically, whatever) right to do so?
Reply: Here waters are murkier. Some militants in the USA will claim that M$ is a good company that generates profits, other European militants will claim M$ is pure, concentrated evil (remember the Fifth Element?). As in most cases in life, probably reality is gray, neither black nor white.
What matters to me is that M$ is unquestionably an innovation obstacle, as it attempts continuously to impose proprietary standards by using its de facto OS monopoly.
Any economist will confirm that far from helping innovation, a totally deregulated 'free market' leads to monopoly. In the USA the rule of law depends on the administration, and thus what the Clinton administration had begun to do was undone by the GW administration.
M$ embodies this simple observation and therefore its monopoly should be hampered. It can be done (remember IBM in the '70s? - I know, I was already around).
Thufir Hawat
Part-time Mentat
Compaq doesn't exist, but the Compaq brand does.
/. level of ignorance.
Usual
Bill Gates has recently announced that Microsoft is going to purchase the EU as a part of their Trans-Atlantic operations division.
"From my understanding, the EU has a lot of influence in Europe," Gates said at a press conference, "and we could use this to boost our products in all those countries over there."
Europeans are unhappy with the proposed takeover by the software omni-corporation. Germany has threatened to split off, Spain has threatened to strike. France has surrendered, stating officially, "What does it matter, anyway?"
The merger would make Microsoft the largest corporation/political coalition in the world. The U.S. Department of Justice is considering the anti-trust implications of the merger.
__________________________________________
I crochet because I'm lonely; I'm lonely because I crochet.
The EU wants Microsoft to disclose more code to its competitors, to allow them to make sure their systems can work together with Microsoft's rather than being disadvantaged by Microsoft's dominant market position.
It's called Microsoft GNU/Windows
Quicktime and RealPlayer aren't European. While the EU's actions may help European consumers, they don't specifically address Microsoft's anti-competitive violations in the browser market - which directly impact Opera, a European company. People kind of tend to see the USDOJ's fight against Microsoft (which was at least partly about browsers) as a loser. But remember: prosecutors won the case, they just failed to win any meaningful remedies against Microsoft. Why would the EU not address this issue?
Remove Windows Media Player from Windows XP editions sold in Europe.
The download for Windows Media Player 9.0 is over 10 MB anyway, so that's a one-time inconvenience for most users, and a minor one at that for those with broadband connections.
By the way, RealOne and QuickTime 6.0 player downloads aren't small in size anymore--they are 10 MB and bigger. =:-O
Users like one-stop shopping
Really?
How do you know? Users have been locked out by MS of having any choice at all when deciding which software to use.
By bundling everything but the kitchen sink in the OS (give me a fsking break, since when a web browser is fundamental to the fcuntioning of an OS???) MS is killing the computer industry by stiffling and scaring innovation.
Not happy with that, they use gangster tactics by sending their hitters of the BSA to audit your company for copyright violations when
it very well can be that you are fully in the clean.
IANAL but write like a drunk one.
The problem that consumers are to lazy to download the free players for all the other formats out there can't be fixed this way...
As part of the remedy, it should have been put down that MS must document all files used by any program they produce. This documentation should be public, and should require at least six months notice for any change.
This would have broken the true monopoly on the desktop, MS's ability to hide how your own data is stored. It's your document, why shouldn't you know this? MS's monopoly depends on shaking off the competition, using copyright laws and secrecy as a bludgeon. It takes a disinfecting light to combat them.
I heard this morning on the radio (I'm in Italy) that the fine has been estimated (spelling?) to be something in the whereabouts of 3 billion dollars (american billions), that is 2.8billions EUR.
And MS will be fined, since the fine is about PAST behaviour. Even if MS becomes the paladin of free trade and opensource (yeah, right...) in the next 24 hours that will not change anything.
Bye and enjoy.
(Go Mario Monti! ^_____^)
Ciao, Renato
When you pay 60-70% tax that bloodywell is HIGH!
And there are cuts all over europe, if you haven't seen that you are fucking blind!
Go back to playing with your I-Tool stupid kid.
If Google really cared they would fix Android Chrome to reflow text, instead of discriminating