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Brazil Moves Away From Microsoft
An anonymous reader writes "Citing economic as well as social reasons, Brazil's government is opting to move away from Windows, opting instead for Open Source (read: Linux) solutions. Interestingly, Microsoft's representative in Brazil decries this as a movement away from freedom and choice..."
But of course, choice is slavery, war is peace, love is hate.
Just ask Mr Gates at the Ministry of Network Security!
As a Brazilian I congratulate the Lula government! Parabens Barbudao :)
hehehehe
Abracos!
It's a movement away from the freedom and choice of choosing one of Microsoft's fine, fine products!
---
Never criticize religion on Slashdot. You will be modded down for "Troll" no matter how factual it is.
I can't wait for the next news on the subject : "Darl Mac Bride trip to Brazil"
"Interestingly, Microsoft's representative in Brazil decries this as a movement away from freedom and choice..."
I think the word they were searching for was "Ironically".
We have heard a lot of stories about people, states, and countries moving away from Microsoft. Is this a trend? If you are a manager of a fund heavily invested in MS, or an individual investor, when does this news begin to worry you. In the long run does MS really have a chance when competing against free, well written, well understood software?
Right there in the same league with Red Hat and Suse is Brasil's own home grown Linux, Conectiva. Not as well known in North America, yet it is perhaps the most popular Linux in the Southern Hemisphere of the Americas.
somehow by CHOOSING to move away from microsoft, they are moving away from freedom of choice? that is the biggest piece of FUD i've ever heard!
i, for one, welcome our new brazilian overlords...
Everything is about choice. Microsoft saying that this is a move away from freedom and choice is rubbish. If *they* want to use Microsoft then they will. For somethings MS is the best answer such as playing games and for the general populs. It brings some sort of standard to the industry.
However if Brazil feel that other OS are better for the jobs they want then they can go for it. The point is no-one is being forced to use anything so MS just see the $$'s slipping away than anything else
Rus
Cheap UK and US VPS
Citing economic as well as social reasons
We should probably add security reasons, employment reasons, resource reasons, government infrastructure reasons, political reasons, etc....etc...etc...
Although, that said. There is a place for proprietary software and many Microsoft products would meet this need. The problem is that Microsoft spent years being just good enough and out-competing the better alternative in many cases (MacOS) and now it is turning around to bite them in the butt, because Linux based solutions are now in many cases.....good enough.
Of course OS X is still the best solution for most users that I have yet seen, but in the short term, Brazil could likely use their existing CPU hardware infrastructure for Linux as opposed to purchasing new hardware from Apple. Long term costs could most likely be lower with a gradual phasing in of OS X in combination with OSS solutions running on Linux and the use of existing infrastructure on Windows however as a healthy computing ecosystem is diverse.
Visit Jonesblog and say hello.
With any luck, this will allow them to save large amounts of money, possibly fueling a tech boom. Well, probably not that much, but it will definitely benefit them. Other nations will notice this, and with any luck push similar initiatives. THis is our lucky bereak!
"73% of quotes on the Internet are made up" -Ben Franklin
moving away from something you can't afford isn't all that revolutionary.
did you forget to take your meds?
Are there any credible laptop manufacturers in Brazil that might offer a laptop without the MS tax?
True genius is grasping a situation like a peice of fruit, and peircing it just right so that it drains dry.
"If this was a rich country, it wouldn't matter and we could buy Microsoft products, but we're a developing country and Linux is just a lot more accessible, so we're heading toward a Linux generation."
It is this attitude that probably got them in to the problems they are in now and it is the attitude that got California in the problems it has now. When the State is flush with cash, you still have to find ways to save money. Just because the State has money, it does not mean it should spend it. It should return it to the people who gave it really belongs to, the Tax Payers.
Run Linux, save money, lower taxes. Sounds like a good combination to me.
Linux O Muerte!
If Brazil remains a locus of "grayhat" activity, could this mean more resources will be put toward finding Linux exploits? Certainly on the whole Linux is more secure than Microsoft's offerings, but I imagine most would agree that its small userbase has played a part in limiting the number of exploits uncovered.
getSexySig();
This is such wonderful news I can barely stand it. I've spent the whole weekend in a slump because it recently hit me that Microsoft has flat out killed all progress in browser technologies for the mainstream consumer. Their admission to make no more changes to IE until the next revision of the OS is terribly sad. For a brief shining moment one could dream of a world of human beings working together and exchanging ideas. But for the most part, the internet has been reduced to an alternate way to watch CNN.
Individial centric social structures (such as capitalism) work well in many ways, but they are very vulnerable through brainwashing of individuals (advertising) and the abuse of the commons(spam). Governments are the forces of socialism which keep things in check. I'm giddy at seeing this actually happening.(Even though I am deeply sad that my own dear Home of the Brave dropped the ball on this in a fearfully troubling manner.) I pray to any higher power that will answer me that this sort of thing will continue until it is safe and productive to have a good idea again.
Interestingly, Microsoft's representative in Brazil decries this as a movement away from freedom and choice..."
The context in the actual story is:
Although Amadeu insists the government has no plans to mandate open-source software use, Microsoft is worried and is lobbying to prevent the policy from becoming law.
"We still think free choice is best for companies, the individuals and the government," said Luiz Moncau, Microsoft's marketing director in Brazil. "There is the risk of creating a technology island in Brazil supported by law."
Understanding the full context, I believe it's a bad thing to exclude one party and not the other, whether it's Microsoft of Linux being excluded. Yes, it sounds like good reasoning that the government would go with Linux and Open-Source because of the cheper prices. However at the same time they should not exclude other types of non-open-source software. Other than for reasons of anti-competitiveness I don't see a good reason to not allow other types of software to be used.
Ladies and Gentlemen, Mr. Bill Gates!! *applause*
Give me a break. Visual Basic programmer for 8 years is trying to set up a Linux system and it doesn't work? Surprise surprise. I would have thought this post was submitted by Bill Gates, except he's probably smart enough to know that Universities do more with Unix style systems than compile "Hello World" programs. Almost all the serious research going on in the world is done on Unix style systems. C'mon. Get a grip. VB, please.
"We still think free choice is best for companies, the individuals and the government," said Luiz Moncau, Microsoft's marketing director in Brazil. "There is the risk of creating a technology island in Brazil supported by law."
So, wait, in the first part of that quote, he says free choice is good. In the second part he says Microsoft's monopoly and refusal to interoperate make free choice painful. So after running that through the bullshit-o-tron we get: "Free choice is good as long as you choose Microsoft."
Stop-Prism.org: Opt Out of Surveillance
It's an astoundingly obvious troll, which makes it all the more hilarious seeing the serious replies that it's getting.
Hi there,
Just had a read through your post and thought wow you seem to have been burnt by a bad experience.
Where i work we use a combination of win2k, WinNT, Linux and Unix boxes. In my experience by far the least troublesome are the linux boxes, our databae server has only just recently had to be rebooted (depressing it was up for 460 days) and that was one really abused box ( developers testing on it as well)
Could you give us an indiction of the load and purpose of the box ? Perhaps we can assist you in sorting out what the issue was.
Tis a shame you had a bad experience, but i think you will find that if you would like to track down what happened or why people would be happy to help.
Regards
Seb
Well, there are circa 300 million US residents, and circa 6 billion people on earth. You can bet your bottom dollar than a bunch of the 5.7 billion who don't live in your nation wouldn't be willing to legitimise a monopoly in order to keep US programmers employed.
That might sound harsh, but it's true.
So MS bad if screwing over local companies/organisations but MS good if screwing over foriegn companies/organisations? Sorry buddy but you can't have it both ways.
Its called a global economy, something the US has been pushing hard over the last couple of decades. Mind you the US version of the global economy seems to think that everyone else should play by the rules except the US.
"I'd rather see money flowing into the U.S., even if it winds up with MS."
After running that through the bullshit-o-tron, we get:
"I'd rather see money flowing out of Brazil."
You bigotted idiot.
I love Linux and free software as much as the next slashdot reader....and I'm not trying to troll...but there's a lot of free software which is neither well written nor well understood, particularly the latter...even by people like me who have been using linux for years personally and professionally. Case and point would be the linux kernel, which has dozens of options which for years have had no help, no corresponding HOWTO, and names that remind you of PlotHoleFillTech from Star Trek.
Please help metamoderate.
"Deseja batata com isso?"
(you want fries with that?)
--Luiz Moncau, Director of Marketing, Microsoft Brazil, 4 months from now.
Will the new network be admin'd by Central Services?
A Good Intro to NetBS
We keep reading about the yet-another-government that said "oh, dear, Microsoft is sooooo expensive, we should use Linux instead."
And then there's an item in the Wall Street Journal about someone from Microsoft striking a deal with the country's government. They get big discounts, free software, maybe some gifts for the schools, maybe even some investments or jobs.
So if you were running a poor country, why WOULDN'T you threaten to give Microsoft products the boot? It's a negotiation!
Cem Kaner, Professor of Software Engineering, Florida Institute of Technology
Cheers,
-j.
One could also render this attitude as, "we would benefit and enjoy the higher end solution, but we just can't afford that right now so we'll make do with this lower cost alternative."
I'm not making any claim about whether or not Linux is a good choice regardless of the purchase price, it just sounds like they care less about Free Software (as in speech) and more about getting a free lunch.
There's mulitple ways to render Brazil's attitude. Our speculations may be valid, but we shouldn't jump to and conclusions about those speculations.
There is no longer anything that can be done with computers that is nontrivial and clearly legal. -- Paul Phillips
I am sure that if you went to one of the local 'Thermas' you would find both...
I went to Brazillia and watched the open source debate. I think folk in the US are completely missing the plot. First off the Brazillian govt is dependent on Microsoft in the way the US govt is dependent on Cobol, Windows is their legacy infrastructure.
Secondly the big issue for the country at the moment is the balance of payments. The government is calculating that they can get better prices out of Redmond if they apply pressure.
Finally there is a protectionist angle, keeping out big US software companies helps local companies - perhaps.
Looking for an Information Security student project suggestion?
Try http://dotcrimeManifesto.com/
Is there any way to turn off stories of this variety? I get tired of reading on an almost daily basis that:
... ad nauseum.
Someone in a high up place somewhere mentioned something about Linux or open source
Some government has decided to think about using Linux and open source in the future
Microsoft's practices are being frowned upon somewhere by somebody.
Stories like these need a new category so I can ignore them.
Case and point would be the linux kernel, which has dozens of options which for years have had no help, no corresponding HOWTO, and names that remind you of PlotHoleFillTech from Star Trek.
For example?
:wq
Oh wait, that's XMMS. I can't always tell the difference. What was I talking about now? Oh, right. Microsoft.
If breaking free of a giant company from another country that charges you too much for software that doesn't work then I for one welcome our new freedom-mongering overlords.
Only in a Slashdot fantasy can a Slackware install turn into several hours of sex . . . . .
It's odd how software has become akin to daytime television. Every time Microsoft loses a market lately, it's the result of some failure of democracy and Natural Law. If a gas station were to lose it's business to a competitor down the street, would he chalk it up to the oppression of OPEC and chime about how such competition is akin to the spread of fascism in Europe in the 1930's?
I think it goes more to show how Microsoft feels entitled to each and every market they enter, and that they're not trained to respond to the market around them as they're so used to controlling it. If they lose business in some market, it's not because their prices are high and their products are inferior, it's because some other market force "has it in for them."
Microsoft's representative in Brazil decries this as a movement away from freedom and choice...
Since when did dubya work for Microsoft?
It goes from God, to Jerry, to me.
However, that's money they could be sending into the U.S. in terms of software licenses, which would then trickle down to the rest of us.
So you're saying that money from Brazil that would go to Microsoft would eventually trickle down to everyone in the U.S.??? Maybe if you're a lawyer who is suing or defending MS, but otherwise, no-- Microsoft is sitting on over 50 billion dollars right now as a hedge fund against lawsuits-- their shareholders are actually complaining about the cash hoard.
~Philly
Yes, this is true. Let me be serious? Doesn't matter where the benefit goes? Why does an american worker deserves a job more than anyone else in he world? It doesn't because we're all equal.
:)
I know that from a personal point of view, this is sad, but the world is huge
Buy a Nintendo DS Lite
You don't have to recompile the kernel to use Linux effectively. Of course you can if you want to, the choice is yours. Well FUDed my man.
The old standard was "use what is best for the job", this tended to be translated to "Use the de facto standard"
Now the move is toward "use what is best, and open"
Like it or not, this DOES put a restriction which was not there before. I'm not saying that Microsoft has a point, I'm just saying I'd like everyone to stop pretending they dont understand it.
-- 'The' Lord and Master Bitman On High, Master Of All
Since when is public transportation for poor people?
But anyways, if you're poor, then you don't really have a choice, do you?
It sounds to me like the argument you're trying to make is not that the Linux kernel is poorly written, but that it's poorly documented. The two are not the same, and in the case of the latter, I would agree. There are people trying to fill that hole, but there's no telling how long that will take, or if they can even keep pace with the development of the kernel.
For every post, there is an equal and opposite re-post.
Microsoft has proven that it can not play nice with the other children, and as such has been given a few years timeout
The Best SW for the job is a fallacy.
I recently saw a movie where the head surgeon made all the operation on little children with brain tumors. He was almost let go as this clearly disallowed anyone else to aquire the needed skill set.
Nobody disputed that fact that he was the best.
Help fight continental drift.
With a title like "Brazil Moves Away from Microsoft" I thought that there was some kind of massive tectonic rearrangement going on. Since I'm in Seattle and have not been to Brazil recently, I'd be thrilled if they moved TOWARD Microsoft. But Brazilians are generally nice, and Monkey-DanceCorp is generally evil and rapacious.
The glass beads we trade to the natives are getting ever more shiny.
Finally! A year of moderation! Ready for 2019?
The bus is the transportation of choice for poor people.
Or for people who don't want to blow thousands of dollars on gas and repairs every year, or for people who can never drive due to disability reasons (raises hand), or for people who don't want to contribute to overpowering car culture, or for people who don't want to contribute to smog. Your post is so narrow-minded, I have to assume you're trolling. The alternative does not reflect well on your intelligence or range of life experiences. Or, to use a Slashdot cliche, "I can't drive a car, you insensitive clod!"
Linux and the BSDs might better be described as the operating systems of choice for people who really know how much Windows is worth, and act accordingly.
Someday, you're going to die. Get over it.
The government role is to increase tax reveuve to increase spending. The only time taxes are ever lowered is when there is a strong outcry.
The journey is better then the end.
Actually, I don't blame Microsoft for their lobbying efforts to try to stop governments from adopting open software. Microsoft, unlike RIAA, is not so dumb as to see where people can channel around them, to get their needs met without involving Microsoft in any way. The RIAA waited until the cat was completely out of the bag and running down the street before they noticed and began to give chase. I doubt they will ever get the cat back in the bag.
Microsoft is holding a fragile bag based mostly on faith. As soon as foreign governments stray from doing things in a method that is controlled from Richmond, more software starts getting developed, and it gets proven more and more by example that open source works in the real world, Microsoft will have increasingly hard times trying to convince businessmen to pay for something they get for free, much like RIAA is having increasingly hard times trying to convince people to pay for DRM-ridden products once people know what alternatives exist.
But worse yet is the "embrace and extend" paradigm, where often Microsoft products are made deliberately incompatible with what was agreed upon as a "standard" by use of proprietary extensions. For instance, I can not access my school grades on my linux box, as the College uses a Microsoft server - and their IIS talks to IE through proprietary extensions. If Linux begins increasing market share on the client side, Microsoft may have some very intense explaining to do to businessmen who wonder why people can not use their websites after the businessmen have paid good money for a Microsoft system. They may highly resent paying top dollar for for a system that only some people can see, whereas the free system their competitor is using can be seen by all.
I get the idea this whole empire can snowball quite rapidly, and the company has to do all they can do to hold onto control as long as possible. I get the idea once this cat gets out of the bag, good luck getting him back in. I think they will have as much luck trying to maintain their revenue stream as the RIAA would have getting people to pay for a song sans DMCA and the pressures of copyright law.
"Prove all things; hold fast that which is good." [KJV: I Thessalonians 5:21]
"...so we're heading toward a Linux generation."
This is what really scares Microsoft: a whole generation of children who have experience with Linux. The only reason most people use Windows is that's all they've every learned. But if people, and I mean real people, not us geeks, start having access to other software and the ability to choose against Microsoft, many will exercise that choice. The last thing that Microsoft wants is customers with an ability to choose a product that isn't Microsoft. This is exactly why they fight so hard against these efforts in Brazil, India, Germany, and elsewhere. They know that every time someone has a choice, there is a real possiblity he won't choose Microsoft.
There is no relationship between price of book and quality of it's content.
Ooh Your are reading that cheap paperback Hamlet, or that old halfprice Gilgamesh.
Look here I got myself a $27 hard cover Ann Coulter.
Help fight continental drift.
See the bus coming yet?
Copyright has been a fun experiment, but perhaps it's time to declare it a failure and move on.
but there's a lot of free software which is neither well written nor well understood, particularly the latter
But at least you have access to the Linux source code to know this. What does the Windows source code look like?
You imply that commercial software _is_ well documented and well understood. That is not always the case. Maybe if you're talking about Oracle, yes, well documented, but even windows is not always well documented and well understood. Especially with the more obscure features of windows.
GET YOUR WEAPONS READY! --DR.LIGHT
Oh please, anyone can understand what Sii3112A is!
Let me explain how to read it.
First, the S designation means that it was added to the kernel in September 2003. If it was a little "s" it would have been added on June 23rd, 1996, but that's not important.
Next comes two little i's. Alan Cox put them there because he thought they looked cool, but since they're the IP of SCO, they'll have to be removed in a later revision.
Next is a "3112". This means that there are 31^12 transistors on whatever this Sii3112A thing is.
And last, there is a big "A". This means that in the count of 31^12 transistors, purple transistors were NOT counted. This was because Alan Cox was feeling tired of the color purple at the time of this things addition to the kernel.
See how easy it is to tell?
Now to find out what a Sii3112A is, you only have to find out which component of your computer has 31^12 transistors! (Not including those purple transistors, of course!)
I beg your pardon? What kind of help? I think you have missed your history classes, or you have lost your memory or maybe the history classes you attend in US don't tell you what really happens outside USA and the long term consequences of many US interventions on Asia, South America, Africa and Middle East (not only the current administration).
Perhaps you have a different dictionary than the rest of us, but ITYM "which is within their means" where you said "of choice."
"We're an apex predator with the fecundity of a base level herbivore... We're a virus with shoes..." RazorJAK
They are going to change from the land of Samba and Carnival to the land of Samba.
I love the Orwellian Work Product known as MSFT. Every time somebody say they won't exclusively use Windows, MSFT says, "You Have To! If you don't you're Anti-Choice!"
President Bush made a national address today regarding the freedom hating countries who are in alliance against the US and hate us because of our freedoms and democracy.
excerpt:
"Freedom loving citizens of the United States, I would like to thank you for your sacrifices since September 11th. Today I bring you news of an even greater peril to our safety and our freedom. We have become aware that terrorist evil doers have infiltrated the Governments of countries such as China, Germany and now even Brazil. Our intelligence has found deep ties to Al Qaeda, Iraq and the Axis of Evil in these countries who have turned against us.
We have appointed Steve Balmer as "Special Ambassador of Freedom" to meet with and talk to the leaders of the Brazilian Government and their IT infrastructure. However, they have shown little interest in making a return to freedom and may leave us with no choice but to call upon a coalition of the willing to help restore freedom to those noble people of Brazil so that they may once again enjoy Freedom and Democracy. The evil doers must be shown that we will not tolerate those who would stand against us and stand against freedom... Compulsatory Registration with the Department of Homeland Security Required"
Jesus Christ, wtf are you smoking? The SiI3112A is the Silicon Image 3112A Serial ATA chip. That said, I will admit that I got a good chuckle out of your post... ;-)
before slamming M$ you would realize that the M$ Marketing director is saying "freedom of choice is better than a GOVERNMENT MANDATED software choice." No where does it state that they think their software is more free or offers more choices.
C'Mon people.
Investing in Microsoft is risking having your own money used against you in the marketplace.
Stock holders should have been worried since day one.
im poor and i prefer hardees...
By and large, language is a tool for concealing the truth. -- George Carlin
correct :)
and to add
many small business everywhere in the world warez...
it's the big business that matter to vendors such as microsoft...
loosing the sale of 1 copy of office? doesn't matter
selling 1500 -2000 licenses that are anually renewed? that's business....
I for one, welcome our new hot grits... PROFIT!
even though there does seem to be a large trend moving toward open-source OS's, microsoft still holds a huge majority of the market... it will take a long time to take them out of the top spot, even with big deals like the one IBM just hammered out with Linux.
The bus is the transportation of choice for poor people. Ramen is the food of choice for poor people. Taco Bell is the restaurant of choice for poor people. Welfare is the lifestyle of choice for poor people.
...with Tux as a talking penguin riding in the back of the bus on his way to cash his welfare check while blabbering about Yo Quiero Ramen noodles?
Where does that put linux?
And when Microsoft (father death) declares the death
and end of support for VB where will you be then...
It's only a matter of time, just like msdos, and
everything else they control. Your entire existence
is in the hands of one and only one company.
Whew...better cert up again soon hehehe
maybe some perl scripting LOL
If Linux is better and less expensive, why is it necessary to force people to use it? Are they too ignorant to figure it out for themselves?
If Microsoft products are inferior and more expensive, why is it necessary to prevent people from using them? Are they too ignorant to figure it out for themselves?
If Linux is better and less expensive and it competes in a free market, then Microsoft doesn't have a chance.
"But Brazil recently signed a letter of intent with IBM Corp. to help boost government use of such platforms as Linux."
We know that IBM has a lower cost Linux based alternative.
i don't know that i would use timewarner/AOL (yes, i know they changed the name!) as a good example here! aol played games, merged with/bought timewarner and has been dragging it down the drain ever since. i beleive that they may have stopped the bleeding, but they already blead billions (and billions) of dollars. not a shining example in my book.
eric
Kernel 2.4.9 was released Aug. 16th, 2001. GCC 3.1 was released May 15th, 2002, after 2.4.19 had been released. It's a shame that flaimbait these days can't even keep their basic stories straight.
"You know, Hobbes, some days even my lucky rocketship underpants don't help" -- Calvin
In the next 2 weeks, I suspect that Peru and possibly Panama will announce the same, with more to follow. What do you bet that our government will be fighting it every step of the way rather than encouraging our software companies to switch.
I prefer the "u" in honour as it seems to be missing these days.
The only problem is safety. Microsoft in the botanical business.... shudder! They add enough bugs as it is!
It's a small world and it smells funny; I'd buy another if it wasn't for the money; Take back what I paid (SoM)
Typo: 2.4.19 was meant to say 2.4.18
"You know, Hobbes, some days even my lucky rocketship underpants don't help" -- Calvin
Isn't it terrible that all that money will go to paying local programmers rather than the Redmond Marketing Machine? How sad it is that Brazilians will now be encouraged to join their own growing national software development and consulting industry.
t'nera semordnilap
I hope you don't want it in English, couse you won't get it. It was printed by a small, unknown editorial company in Brazil.
You can get it on-line, for R$ 9,00 (aprox. US$ 3,00), here.
morcego
Free Trade is a joke of course, but let's put this in perspective of the americas trade zone negotiations. Brazil wants to protect it's financial service and tech areas from U.S. domination/ownership (multinationals/u.s. investors). It wants profits to go to the local economy...it also wants to export agricultural products and protect its farmers. By focusing on linux and local tech, they can expand their influence in south america, and eventually (since lots of thrid world countries realize the inherent problem in giving money to the world richest country) grab IP rights of their own and export tech to the US...or at least drive ridiculous profits down...it's the natural reaction to the way US subsidies for farmers drive profits down worldwide and keep third world countries to a low growth rate (insuring a very very slow development process and much less threat of challenge to US interests/IP/capital from developing nations). The US wants to protect their farmers because it hurts third world countries profits andhelps big business reap the benefits of tech and financial services (third world countries don't have the capital/resources to compete)...so brazil wants their farmers to benefit and to not allow the invasion of US tech and financial services. So the current talks, detailed at BBC, will probably fall through. And since the US is pursuing deals with individual countries, it's in Brazil's best interest to develop their own tech/keep US tech out, independent of the trade agreement. Of course, given the timing, it's a nice warning shot too.
All your preview button are belong to Hello Kitty.
It's as if Microsoft is the very last of the dot-coms (although it never truly was a dot-com), and, until MSFT falls to a final reasonable level, the market and economy won't truly be able to restructure and recover. Reason being, so many huge mutual funds are so heavily invested in MSFT. A stock that does not react to either bad or good news is not a reasonably-priced stock, but is an exercise in the optimism of mass market behavior.
Cool, but can the brazilian gov. affoard SCO's licensing fees?
Is the Internet for poor people or rich people? What about parks and libraries?
Maybe an Open Source OS shouldn't be compared to ramen and Taco Bell . . .
Sdelat' Ameriku velikoy Snova!
1. Microsoft
- We own your file formats so we own your data. We will probably support your data into the future, if not sue us.
- Your problems inspire solutions that make us rich. We will help you so long as this is true. If it will not make us rich enough you must wait.
2. Open Source
- You control your file formats and your data. We (any company - even Microsoft) want your business and we will do our best. We know that if you don't like our work or prices you can find someone else (a local programmer).
It isn't legislation that Microsoft fears its that enough users create critical mass making their anti-linux wall a liability to their own new business. A couple of innovations, a cool feature or two that MS doesnt have and cant control -- Microsoft is on the outside of its own wall.
The internet basically makes the world one big customer who will eventually wake up to the better deal or pay local developers to create one.
Software purchasing doesn't have to be more complicated than buying fresh fruit. Do you want local product with all the nutrition and no brand name or will you pay extra to support exotic flavours and rich foreign farms?
The poor need nutrition. They will make their own choice for fine dining. Microsoft will be a spice, the main course will be Open Source.
Just wait till all the cooks share their recipes!
"Where does that put linux?"
Up there with the Volkswagon Beetle.
Of course, the smart people bought Edsels. They knew that price was equal to value.
You were mistaken. Which is odd, since memory shouldn't be a problem for you
1- That's really neat. Groceries that would be delivered as fast as pizza- this could actually work here too (without spending millions on high-tech warehouses or massive advertising).
2- It's rather annoying that some Linux boosters use this example for showing how good their OS is, while ignoring the fact it had 98% to do with such customer-friendly policies. Granted it shows that it can be used in big projects... but is that anything new?
Just tonight I had a chat with a childhood friend now working as a civil servant in France. He tells me they've already switched to a lot of open source. How many countries have made or are making the shift? And will it be inevitable that MS will lose serious market share? If I were a MS shareholder, I would be thinking of selling just about now.
Information: "I want to be anthropomorphized"
Thanks for the link. Too bad I don't understand Portuguese.
Maybe someone will produce the text version so it can be translated through systran.
>IBM last year helped one of Brazil's largest fast
>food chains, Habib's, install a Linux system that
>lets customers order by phone for home delivery
>within 28 minutes.
What are they running that thing on, a 486SX25?
Il y a une horloge qui ne sonne pas.
This is of course great news. Maybe they should talk to Peruvian Congressman Dr. Edgar David Villanueva Nunez, the guy that wrote the letter to Microsoft about Peru using Free Software regarding Peru's new "Free Software in Public Administration bill".
Free Software is often better than proprietary software. The OpenSource movement bases it's whole argument on this point. The terms "Free Software" and "OpenSource" usually refer to the same thing, but if people don't value freedom, they won't see a reason not to switch back when a better (low-cost initially) proprietary alternative comes along.
I wonder if this has anything to do with Stallmans recent video talk at a brazillian Free Software conference.
Expert in software patents or patent law? Contribute to the ESP wiki!
...until the US gov't gets pressured to treat these "move towards open source" campaigns by various countries as a tariff against US software. That could be interesting.
All's true that is mistrusted
Maybe they just like Linux....?
It IS possible, you know..
-austin
NEVER CONFORM.
nothing.can.stop.me.now
Simply because one person out there understands something, does not mean that that knowledge is accessable to everyone else. Someone understanding a piece of software, and that software being well documented are two entirely seperate things.
Kernel level programming Linux in VB?
Dude, where do you get that crack from, and is it cheap - because MAN is it ever GOOD SHIT!
Visit CryptoGnome in his home.
I wonder if there was any input from Peruvian Congressman Dr. Edgar David Villanueva Nunez, the guy that wrote the letter to Microsoft, justifying the Free Software in Public Administration bill.
Also, coincidentally, Richard Stallman gave a video-talk in Brazil just 12 days ago.
Free Software and OpenSource are roughly the same thing, but there's no mention of freedom in that article. I just hope they understand the long term benefits of Software Libre.
Expert in software patents or patent law? Contribute to the ESP wiki!
If the government is not mandating open source, then Microsoft has nothing to complain about other than being unable to compete fairly in an open market. I see no problem with mandating that a tax supported agency at least examine and fairly consider the use of Open Source for thier software purchases.
Open Source might actually harm propietary software vendors, but those same vendors cannot claim they had nothing to do with creating the envronment that encouraged the Open Source and Free Software movements to become what they are today.
Read, L
In the long run, people will always choose the lower cost option as long as it does what they want most of the time.
Microsoft won the browser war not for being the best browser, but because it came free with the OS.
If Linux does what most people want and does it well, then I really don't see how Microsoft has a chance. The only thing they can do at this point to compete would be to release the Win2k/XP/Longhorn kernel for free, not neccessarily open-source.
People currently pay for Microsoft software even with the bugs and reboots. If you give them something for free that does pretty much the same thing with the bugs and reboots included then free is really a no brainer.
What can Microsoft do to counter Linux?
1. Lower the cost of the Windows OS. The've got plenty of ability to move here since it is priced so high to begin with (compared to free).
2. Get rid of the client access licenses.
3. Offer a slicked down base OS for free, then make sure they stay in the applications development arena. Remmember, it's really the apps that do all the work.
4. Complain about Linux until it runs right over them, they lose there shareholders, and Bill ends up tossing a snow globe while uttering rosebud.
+1
Microsoft may be bitching about the politics of this, but the fact is that the government of Brazil is still a *customer*. Customers are only as loyal as their pocketbooks allow them to be.
Don't blame me, I didn't vote for either of them!
Case and point would be the linux kernel, which has dozens of options which for years have had no help, no corresponding HOWTO, and names that remind you of PlotHoleFillTech from Star Trek
But I am sure that you know all the options for ntoskrnl.exe right? Get a grip, talk about something relevant to an OSes usability. Most users do not what a kernel is whether it is Linux, BSD, SCO, Sun or Microsoft. Admins (in a position to need to) know about them. BTW, the Linux kernel is probably the most thoroughly documented kernel out there.
"There is the risk of creating a technology island in Brazil supported by law."
Hmmm... Sounds like a reference to the "remote attestation" procedure in Trusted Computing. Basically, if a Windows server doesn't "trust" the operating system, it won't interact with it. Brazil could really find itself out of the loop if that were the case.
The Death Penalty: Killing people to show others that killing people is wrong.
The kernel is *incredibly* clean. It was architected by David Cutler, and it's pretty much a work of art. The libraries that have since been built on top of it are nowhere near as well designed, but the code in them tends to be well-reviewed and commented. Unfortunately, it was reviewed with an eye towards functionality, rather than security, but functionality was the historical goal. Whether it's getting better or not, only time will tell. There's a reason you don't see security holes in the kernel, though.
Marcelo Tosatti, wunderkind maintainer of the 2.4 kernel, left Conectiva (ref in Portuguese) in September of this year for Cyclades, a company that provides "Linux inside" hardware solutions. He says (in Portuguese) here that it was an amicable split.
If you go and look at some of the discussion of the controversial change of VM in the 2.4 kernel, in addition to messages to and from Andrea Arcangeli from Suse (author of the new VM), you'll see a lot of messages involving a Conectiva employee: Rik van Riel, author of the old VM (the one replaced by the Arcangeli VM in the 2.4.10 kernel). He continued development of his VM, and it is still favored by Alan Cox and by Red Hat.
The President of Brazil, to whom the article refers as "Silva," but who is known to everyone here in Brazil by his nickname, "Lula," is one of the founders of the labor movement here. That's impressive because he did what he did when the government of Brazil was a US-supported military dictatorship (it finally fell in 1985). Lula went to prison for standing up to the military government, but did not give up on his dream. He continues to be a man of exceptional courage. He stood up to the Bushies at the FTAA (here it's called ALCA) negotiations, refusing to remove tariffs on American products in Brazil until the US does away with its tariffs and subsidies that affect the relative prices of American and non-American products. He also helped organize the countries of South America against Bush's plans to invade Iraq early this year and gave a speech at the UN in New York last month condemning Bush's policy.
During that same trip to New York, Lula showed an attitude his predecessor, Fernando Henrique Cardoso, never had: pride in being Brazilian. Where FHC's attitude was basically "you Americans are so much smarter and better than us... please come here and make our country more like yours," Lula's is "if you bet against us, you'll lose." Lula wants to develop Brazil's technology and economy and create opportunity for the Brazilian people. He sees free (as in speech-- "livre" in Portuguese) software as a tool to help bring this about. He also values independence and freedom, and sees that being dependent on a monopolist like Microsoft limits options and is expensive.
Given that Lula has faced down a military dictatorship and George W Bush without flinching, he seems like just the man to take on MS.
--Mark
"It is nice to know that the computer understands the problem. But I would like to understand it too." --Eugene Wigner
See, Brazil has very few companies actually making software. Curiously, the Brazilian software market was bigger in the old 8-bit and early PC market, with some popular productivity applications. Then Microsoft came stomping in with Office, and that's the last any Brazilian has heard of Brazilian-made software. There's a few left in niche markets, where MS has no desire to touch.
With Linux, I doubt there will be an incredible upsurge of new coders, but nothing will be lost either. Most existing coders will move if there's demand for Linux. And you will open the market for lots of cheap Linux-specialized services, which could, in time, remove the final barrier toward nationwide Linux adoption: support.
For Brazil, there's none of that "Linux support costs much more than Windows support, yadda TCO-crap yadda", because there's none of that "I know Linux, so I can charge more" elitism as in some other countries.
And with wider adoption of low-price systems comes a bigger service market, which is probably where Brazil would see its IT economy grow the most. Seems like a wise choice to me.
> What is it with Brazil and transexuals anyways?
It's just one data point of the much larger "deal" with Brazil and sex.
Natives with strong fertility cults merged forcefully with European Catholicism, and that creates a certain mix of sexual obligation and sexual repression. The result is extremely weird, and it has plenty of fringes. You only seem to have noticed one of them...
-fb Everything not expressly forbidden is now mandatory.
Guys, the level of blind bias today is really quite sad. I've been reading the comments her looking for some intelligent discussion of what is happening and all I'm seeing is post after post of pro-open source banter being given mods for no apparent reason. At least try to be original or insightful in some way. Posting an anti-Microsoft message into a forum like this accomplishes little to nothing.
Having said that:
I've worked with the Brazilian government's software agency on an implementation of a system to track official documents and I wouldn't base any technical decision on anything they say. I honestly doubt they'll be able to run Linux without a serious investment in outside help from people like us. I can only speculate but the investment might end up being a lot more that they expected, as it was on the project I worked on. Furthmore, it would be just like their government (as with many) to implement an illiterate, shortsighted policy banning certain kinds of product for no intrinsic reason.
With banks and hospitals also moving away from OS/2 and Windows, IT companies are requiring the understand of implementing and integrating linux in the workspace. Now that linux has gotten this far, concentrating on making less distros better should be the way.
0011 1111 0111 1010
You're just a cog. Sorry you think you're an investor.
Didn't the military (US) change to macs a couple years back due to bad security in Windows?
With crazy MS prices, they're bound to start to lose business.... More money you pay, the more holes there are.
Are universities next? I'd say the special redhat educational licensing is mighty tempting over expensive MS site licenses.
Brazil isn't a newbie in OSS and Linux. A state in the south of Brazil (Rio Grande do Sul) was the first one to start the migration for Linux and OSS. People related to the IT administration in the government have been saying about switching to Linux since the start of Lula's mandate.
Another point is that a law stating that all government departments use OSS and Linux does nothing to prevent freedom of choice. The government doesn't think that MS Windows suits their needs and wants to change to Linux. This law will only enforce all of the government to stick with a standard that they already chose. How good would it be if every single department used something different? Complete chaos....
In Brazil there are many schools, universities and hospitals that are public. This means that they belong to the goverment. It's not like in the US where thos things belongs to a group of people or investors. Imagine having to buy windows liscenses by the hundreds of thousands (if not millions) for $150 each?
The entire population can still use Windows if they want. Another aspect is that Brazil has a lot of developers and IT professionals. Using OSS will create more job opportunities for those people and will help pick up the economy. You guys have no idea how bad is the unemployment rate there...
And yes, I am brazilian.
Argentina has these things there, too (I lived there a few years). They're basically little stores where people go in and pay to get on the Internet. I can't remember the prices now, but the people there are so poor, that they only charged in increments of either 10 minutes or an hour.
Plus, a lot of the shops are run by the monopolistic telephone company there - Telefonica Argentina. I think they are in other countries as well, but I'm not sure. Their rates are reasonable to get online, but usually it's dialup -- not highspeed, and for theirs you have to pay the phone charges too. It's not free to make local calls, which is a shame.
For people who open up their own shops, who actually have enough money, I can see absolutely no reason why they would want to use Microsoft Windows, when at the very *least* Linux can do everything it can for free, and at the very best ... well, we all know the advantages. :)
Great - just great. Now all the .br-based servers spewing all the spam into my email box will NEVER break down.
... A Beowulf Clod of Insensitive Soviet Russians ...
5468652047616D65
What does the Windows source code look like?
Hungarian notation. Need anything more be said?
-- Alastair
Unfortunately, you have been trolled. He lied at least about the following things:
Although VB can be compiled, it cannot be used for kernel programming.
The version numbers he cites were never concurrently in use.
That Linux does not support journaling, SMP, or memory protection is simply a lie. Memory protection has been around since the beginning; SMP is what SCO is suing over; journaling is present both in Ext3 and ReiserFS (a very nice filesystem, I use it on my laptop). It should also be noted that Windows 98 does not protect its memory.
Kernel panics cannot be caused by applications "crashing," and if an app we to cause a panic, you probably wouldn't know which one it was.
And of course the performance he cites is BS too. You might as well try help the guy whose new dual G5 takes 20 minutes to copy a 17 megabyte file, and meanwhile, Netscape won't work.
I hereby place the above post in the public domain.
Google search
One previous publishing
What I would really like to see is "United States moves away from Micosoft" or "Europe chooses Linux" , "Japan makes Linux standard" so we can get some really big and important countries into the linux takeover. (not saying anything bad about brazil, just they are not a big source of technology)
Huh? What kind of jibber-jabber is this? I thought you filthy geeks liked 'hackers'?
Apparently not when it's your 'enemy', eh? Stupid nerds.
But at least you have access to the Linux source code to know this. What does the Windows source code look like?
NOTE: I do not claim to own this
while (memory_available)
{
eat_major_portion_of_memory (no_real_reason);
if (feel_like_it)
make_user_THINK (this_is_an_OS);
Bill_Gates_bank_balance++;
}
"She's a West Texas girl, just like me" - G.W Bush Iraqis
You forget the beauty of Posix. Most of the standards encompassed by Posix are so vaguely defined that we can implement them just about anyway we want and still be Posix compliant.
But, all humor (true though it may be) aside -- Linux already owns enough mindshare such that "Linux is as Linux does" and that ain't no Forrest Gump reference either. You see other OSes like HPUX, AIX, IRIX, *BSD, even Solaris, providing "Linux compatibility" layers. So, right now, Linux is the defacto standard for unix compatibility.
When information is power, privacy is freedom.
Having studies the design of the NT kernel (though, I've never had access to the source) I can concur. The original design of the kernel *was* very clean. However, I don't know how much of it has stayed that way. Tons of stuff have been pushed into kernel mode, and stuff like DirectX have broken various abstractions in the kernel and the HAL. The seperation of the various non-kernel kernel-mode components (win32 server) has also gotten rather nebulous.
A deep unwavering belief is a sure sign you're missing something...
I would like to have heard more about how using linux would help accelerate education, technology development, and communication. Or about how it is superior to Windows in many ways. Or about what open source really means, or about how governments have certain obligations which can be best met with open source.
But the clanging, steel hard bottom of the pot truth is, Brazil and most of the states considering linux are absolutely correct to FUCK Micro$oft and their double-dealing ways. It just so happens that South Americans seem to have bigger cojones AND clearer heads about this, but most likely every local or national government in this economy would do better to steer away from megacorporations and spend less money on developing maintainable systems of their own which leverage the work of other states as well.
Of course it will cost money, but on the order of the first $20 which after passed through the economy hundreds of times has created an exponential amount of wealth. This will also create jobs! THERE IS NO REASONABLE ARGUMENT FOR BRAZIL OR ANY OTHER GOVERNMENT TO PAY THE RICHEST MAN IN THE WORLD. So praise Brazil and Peru, and do your best to get people who understand what this is about - MONEY, JOBS, EFFICIENCY and FREEDOM FROM CUTTHROAT MONOPOLIES - into office where they can make similar decisions.
Well, to start, I'm from the US too. And I think that if you take the time to talk to some people who have been in other countries over the last few years, you'll find that people around the world admired the US a lot and used to have a positive overall opinion of the US. And at the time of the September 11 attacks, there was great sympathy shown all over the world for Americans. A French newspaper declared "Today we are all Americans." Messages of sympathy and solidarity poured in to the US from all around the world. I saw it here in Brazil, where I found some of it frustrating because it started to look like major ass-kissing. You know... Brazil started to seem to me like that annoying little hanger-on who hangs around with-- and owes his survival to-- the school bully. It fit with the then-President (FHC)'s attitude, which I mentioned in my post. I just read an account of the experiences of Americans who were in England and say the British abandoned their "stiff upper lip" and showed a lot of emotion and sympathy, even walking up to Americans they hardly knew and embracing them. This was a unique opportunity for American diplomacy. A more agile and intelligent administration might have taken advantage of it. The Bushies not only wasted that goodwill, but managed to alienate a vast majority of the world's population (over 85% of us opposed his war, for example) and create new anti-American attitudes that help nobody.
I am an expat, and that is in part because I really don't like what the US government has become (I already wasn't wildly fond of it when I moved here, and it's gotten a lot worse in the last 3 1/2 years). But I am not in favor of anti-Americanism. In fact, I still consider myself some kind of American idealist. My teachers (and I include my family and friends here) did a really good job of convincing me of the value of what they told me were American ideals. They even did a reasonably good job of convincing me the US government actually upheld those ideals. As I got older, I started to discover that many facts just didn't seem to fit too well with the "US Government = Goodguy" model pounded into our heads in school, on TV, in books, and in films, nor with the "US Government Upholds American Ideals" model, also beaten into us constantly. And I was even able to notice that the discrepancy between the ideals and the actions of the US government was getting worse and worse, with more and more of those ideals being completely betrayed.
Now I see anti-American sentiment growing daily, and it saddens me. There is one positive thing that has happened because of the way Bush and his administration have wrecked the image of the US-- Brazilians have finally started to realize that Americans are not better than Brazilians, and that Brazilians can do anything anyone else can do. Lula also helps with that-- his pride and total confidence in Brazil are very important, especially after 8 years of FHC, who was nothing but a brown-noser who spent much of his time kissing the ass of the US and its government, and helping further the idea that the US and Americans were somehow better than Brazil and Brazilians.
I am glad to see Brazilians taking the attitude that Brazil can and should produce quality products capable of competing with those of any other nation. I am glad that when we talk about the Brazilian
"It is nice to know that the computer understands the problem. But I would like to understand it too." --Eugene Wigner
Whenever I read an article talking about "bridging the technology gap" in a country where the reporter finds himself describing the average living conditions as "abject poverty", I can't help but wonder if the government isn't just trying to make a token gesture of goodwill and make it look like they're solving a problem.
10 REM *********************
20 REM * Windows *
30 REM *********************
40 LET VER$=2003
50 CLS
60 PRINT "Windows ";: PRINT VER$
Get your own free personal location tracker
In Europe there was this entrepeneur totally pissed off with the USA. He created a COLA called Mecca Cola. From the receipts a part goes to the Palestinian cause. His brand is doing exceedingly well, he is exporting to Arabia..
A product like Coca Cola is sold because of its marketing, when its message does strike a discord, it just will not sell.
Then again what IS cola but a fizzy sugar drink with a flavour?
You may call using MS software slavery, but all you want to do is make OSS a slave master.
Manipulate the moderator system! Mod someone as "overrated" today.
Sure, MS makes the excuse that they're "maximising shareholder value", but that should not mean acting immorally.
Engineering is the art of compromise.
You aren't worried yet?
...
At least one analyst that has carefully taken apart the earnings statements and filings of ms sees the end of the earnings boost to licensing 6.0, and sees lower earnings and declining market share ahead. There are too many stories to link or quote them all, but here are a few you should look at (you'll need to google for them, I save the stories but I rarely go back and edit the source to include the original link, and the stories themselves don't usually do it):
Linux to Overtake Unix, Leapfrog Windows, Analyst Says, look at bzmedia's site, Claybrook wrote it, July 15, 03, bzmedia.com, or SD Times, the title is SD Times.
Small Businesses Like Linux Prices, Stacy Cowley, IDG News Service (PCWorld) Thursday, July 17, 2003
Nothing can stop Linux now, says IDC By Peter Williams [13-06-2003] VNUNet Not a direct link, need to find the article.
Microsoft Feels the Linux Heat:
June 9, 2003 By Peter Galli
Microsoft Corp. is starting to react more aggressively to the Linux and open-source threat, last week slashing the price of its SQL Server 2000 Developer Edition by $450, to $49.
The second major price cut in as many weeks followed the Redmond, Wash., company's decision to reduce the retail price of Office XP by 15 percent.
For the first time, Microsoft officials are admitting that Linux is affecting the way the company prices products. Paul Flessner, senior vice president of the Server Platform Division, told eWEEK at the Tech Ed conference here last week that Linux factored into Microsoft's decision to cut the price of its SQL Server 2000 Developer Edition, effective Aug. 1.
The Penguin heats up the enterprise applications space:
Apparently, Linux is the fastest growing of all operating systems, with a cumulative annual growth rate of 34%. In so doing, it is taking away market share from both Windows and Unix. According to IBM, Microsoft will never again achieve the annual growth rate of 40% for Windows that it previously enjoyed. But what about software and applications? Here, Linux is playing catch-up, with Linux software growing at an annual rate of 65%.
SAP has been supporting Linux for four years now and has more than 1,000 customers, both large and small, using Linux. PeopleSoft announced recently that it is porting all of its 170 enterprise applications over to Linux in its next upgrade. Oracle currently has a large marketing campaign underway in support of Linux products and is certifying and supporting its 9i database product on the China-based Red Flag Linux operating system. It has announced that it will soon make its 9i application server and both collaboration and e-business suites available on Linux. And a host of other vendors have also started to support Linux, including mid-tier vendors such as Sage.
Figures given by IBM show that Linux is resonating with customers as well. Handy states that Wall Street firms have taken to Linux in droves, with such companies as Morgan Stanley, Citibank, eTrade, Merrill Lynch and the New York Stock Exchange using it. In Europe, financial services firms such as HSBC and Deutsche Bank are deploying Linux, and it is also making inroads into government and retail verticals.
In terms of geographies, Europe is still ahead of the US in terms of take-up, although there has been a noticeable increase in implementations in the US in the past couple of years, from the Wall Street companies mentioned above on the East Coast to Hollywood on the West. In Europe, Linux has the largest penetration in Germany in terms of overall IT spending - but Handy points ou
When the .doc format is standard its a ok but when someone wants to standardize on something open that even MS can supplie with its wrong?
Talk about salespeak at its highest sleaziest level.
HTTP/1.1 400
Work? Yes, since being poor also means that one has to work for a living. And eat in the Taco Bell ;)
- 4r0g
But Windows might have one more election to get a more favourable president.
Will the real Europeans please stand up? I'm so tired of comments like this, first I'm an American, second, I've been to Europe 7 times, third Bush is an idiot, fourth Europe is great, but not any better, cleaner, smarter, or healthier than the US; Canada is merely colder. You can argue statistics, anectodal evidence whatever you've got in your Limmey hands, but simply I've been everywhere and it's all the same. Also, for the remainder of this arguement: economics is not a zero-sum game. If Brazil becomes the center of the world for IT, then the US can sell grains (like we do with the rest of the world) cars, aircraft and a zillion other products and services. The US still has wealth in either case. Brazil gaining some ground and making some money is good for the World's economy. Besides, I think a Limmey would know better, you guys still can't figure out the metric system.
Anyone who whines about being modded down should be.
Sent from my ASR33 using ASCII
Ummm... the same goes for commercial software.
The thing is: you can't fix commercial software if you need to. You can fix open source software if you need to.
That is the point.
; -- the corruption of government starts with its secrets. a truly free people keep no secrets. --
Linux has perfect* documentation, the source. It also augments this rather verbose documentation in the Documentation directory.
*perfect in the sense that all questions can be readily answered
it is on times like these that i fell honored for being a brazilian.
http://safari.oreilly.com/?XmlId=0-596-00213-0
http://slashdot.org/books/01/01/07/0414242.shtml
This post was compiled with `% gec -O`. email me if you need the sources
The World Summit on the Information Society (WSIS), which is one of these global UN conferences, is taking place in Geneva in December.
A translation of the Brasilian position has been psoted to the Oekonux List:
Check out MKDoc a mod_perl CMS
Although Microsoft never mentions this fact, open source is a completely level playing field, even more so than proprietary software. Microsoft would be as free as anyone else to supply open source software, so they can hardly claim to be disadvantaged compared to other suppliers that meet the government tendering requirements.
If their reply is "But we sell only proprietary software" then they are willfully excluding themselves from the market, and it would be quite ridiculous for them to apportion the blame elsewhere.
After all, this is no different in principle to a government deciding to limit their vehicle purchases to only those employing catalytic converters. A response of "But we sell only cars without catalytic converters" merely highlights the fact that the supplier has chosen not to operate in the relevant market.
I find it rather odd that MS is stating that this would be a lack of freedom of choice. It goes back to the issue of being able to support a product properly and making it robust so that the same issues of difficult implementation and security do not arise -- Seemingly on a minute by minute basis. There is something to be said about loyalty to a product that works and works well. As I too have been told by MS support that the root cause of my issue has been my Linux install (dual-boot) without having really focused on the issue I had.
It's all fun and games until someone takes an eye out!
This POSIX kernel is different to that POSIX kernel which is different to that POSIX kernel is totally different to that POSIX kernel.
POSIX; it's what's for dinner!
Ahh.. but there's no Samba in a Windows-free environment!
Well. One thing you'll learn quickly when living in another country is that there is another point of view. And sometimes realizing another perspective exists can help undestand the world a little better.
I'm an ex-pat who's been living in Brazil for two years. There is just as many americans who think the only thing in brazil is carnival, the rainforest and soccer.
However, please relax. People in other countries mostly do not care about Americans and their SUV's - although the debt is a bit ridiculous. They do care about pre-emptive wars that imply colonism - largely forgeting their own history though. And at least in the case, president Lula says often that the its time to stop blaming others for brazils problems - the solutions are inside brazil itself.
Oh, and since the thread is about connectiva - it does have a following here and in the government where I work - but you are just as likely to see suse or redhat.
Software livre ou morte!
iksrazal
The result? Brazil suffered big time until the early 90s, with crappy products and outdated technology. The protection mechanism only widened the gap between Brazil and the outside world.
When the Brazilian market was reopened to the world, the technology gap was so f***** big that Brazil suffered a lot due to the incredible influx of imports, that fueled inflation and a severe currency crisis (local currency used to devaluate a lot, on a daily basis). Brazilian products could not keep with the competition and as a result, Brazil saw lots of banruptcies and unemployment. Most of its local companies had to be sold to foreign corporations.
It is a clear example of the backlash of a stupid protectionist policy, which also created the piracy culture, still prevalent in Brazil, but seen as harmless by most of Brazilian society (in Brazil, such tech industry does not contribute significantly in terms of employment and therefore Brazilians who do not work for foreign IT companies undestandably do not give a shit on the issue of software piracy.)
When Moncau talks about the risk of creating a tech island, he refers specifically to the fear of going back to that situation. It's a fear that is deeply rooted into the Brazilian psyche.
Due to the nature of the GPL, I believe that it might not happen (the tech island thing), but the MS guy uses this fear as FUD fodder against Brazilian society.
Some day MS will eventually decide to price aggressively. That day I'll sit back and laugh!
Sticking feathers up your butt does not make you a chicken - Tyler Durden
At least, Brazilian electronic voting systems works!!!!
I'd like Slashdot editorialists to be a little more precise about the title of their stories. When I read "Brazil Moves away from Microsoft", I really think that Brazil is moving away, whereas actually Brazil is thinking about moving away. How many countries did already think about moving away from Microsoft ? Since 5 years, I think, everyone. But who did ? I think in 5 years, none.
I would'nt like to be pessimistic about Linux vs Microsoft, but, as I argued before, and I as red it in this thread, this is about negotiations. Brazil's signal will be answered by Microsoft agreements, ie free software, cut prices, etc.
My question is : do you really think that any country is ready and able to switch RIGHT NOW ?
Because actually we only need one move to make other people realize that this is affordable. This is just like international politics : everyone is praising it, but this is still like a philosophical antic.
Who can do it ? Who will make it ?
Regards,
Jdif
Let's overcome our weakness.
Yes, but the Government could simply pass a law that there is no copyright on any computer software, software suppliers must release source code, and if they don't, then decompiling, reverse engineering &c. are explicitly permitted. And there would be nothing Microsoft's Brazilian division could do about it except supply their source code or hightail it out of Brazil.
Je fume. Tu fumes. Nous fûmes!
"Taco Bell is the restaurant of choice for poor people."
Since when? That place is more expensive than almost anywhere else. You can get a better deal at your local movie theatre...
"I'll have 2 Chicken Soft Tacos and a Cinnamon Crapnasty, please." "That'll be $27.50, here's your soda thimble."
Hokey statistics and ancient misconceptions are no match for a good thought in your head, kid!
It is far from certain. OK a few Brazillian software companies may gain from a captive market. But protectionism has costs and in this case the cost is that the government ends up running bespoke software that is expensive to produce and maintain rather than Commercial Off The Shelf (COTS).
Overall US industry is not benefiting from the protectionist measures here. The protectionist steel tarifs have artificially raised the price of steel for the auto industry. The protectionist agricultural subsidies raise the price of food at home and accelerating the demise of the small farm.
Brazil was big in the days of 8 bit computing for a reason - protectionism. They were still locked into using obsolete domestic computer hardware years after it had become obsolete. They missed out on the first five years of the information technology boom and have been struggling to catch up since.
What is hilarious is the fact that some of the folk pushing open source protectionism are the type that blather on remorselesly about how Ayn Rand was right...
Looking for an Information Security student project suggestion?
Try http://dotcrimeManifesto.com/
"Batata acompanha?" (something like "Do you want fries on the side?").
Then they go on with very positive reviews of different free software packages, before concluding with a link to a very positive review of SuSE Personal 9.0.
Not bad at all. A lot of people will see this...
Employee of Inrupt, Project Release Manager and Community Manager for Solid
Obviously the policy makers understand as much about OSS as they do about Genetic Engineering or Hydroelectric Power Plants construction and operation. Nevertheless they have to make decisions about all these issues and for this they have technicians around them who do understand the issues involved.
The point here is that a large and influential group of the technology experts with connections in the Worker's party happen to be strong proponents of OSS in all public business. As it is, it took us some time to make the whole case to the decision makers and dismiss all Microsoft FUD surrounding the issue, but now the ball seems to be rolling.
You and a lot of people here are making the same mistake. You imply the only factor here is immediate price, forgetting things that should be at least as important, such as security issues (we are talking about a government here), long-term pricing (comes the next upgrade, no one can garantee Microsoft will not put the prices up again), advances in technology education (meaning the government and the universities will be trainnning more people capable of operating and producing Open Source Software) and even royaties (some important fraction of every dollar expend in closed American software leaves the country). As a Brazilian taxpayer, I feel it is a lot better to see my mone spent in OSS than in Microsoft, Oracle, Adobe etc.
You should try riding the subway in Manhattan sometime.
It's not wasting time, I'm educating myself.
I just want to see The Onion with the headline "Microsoft Moves Away from Microsoft: All Internal Software to be Linux-based from Now On"
Anti-American sentiment may be rising to such levels that for the leader of a foreign country it's tremendous publicity to be able to say that you were the one who stopped writing checks to the evil empire's coffers.
And as a citizen of a democratic country I do not believe the results some software is issuing.
How can I request for an audit of the software if the source code is not available?
Closed source software should be considered a stop-gap measure that allowed goverments to have access to modern software tools. With the availability of similar tools in the FLOSS world there is little justification for using closed source software.
Goverments have normally to take into account different things when choosing a tool. Price is one of them, but accountability and transparency should be even more important in my opinion. Form that point closed source software are not a realistic choice for responsible goverments.
IANAL but write like a drunk one.
Saying "The bus is the transportation of choice for poor people" doesn't mean it isn't also the transportation of choice for others: exclusivity isn't a logical consequence of that statement.
[ home ]
FUD.
If you can't find what you're looking for on one of the CDs of documentation, chances are pretty good its already on the technet site. If its not, open a TAR. Your correspondence with them will become part of the site as further documentation.
The Oracle 11i apps are also well documented. I know for a fact that you can get CDs full of documentation that even cover the schemas for things like GL,AR, AP, Order managment and so on. You may need an accounting degree to understand it all, but it doesn't make the documentation poor.
BTW, I'm no oracle fanboy by any means. The products and support are great, but you have to pay through the nose for it.
"If they have both, tell them we use Linux. And if they have that, tell them the computers are down." -Dave Chapelle
... to use unauditable, non transparent tools?(encumbered by NDAs, copyrights, patents,etc).
Whenever any organization requests bidders for a project, wether you like it or not, some resrictions have to be put, according to the project.
In the case of a goverment, transparency (the freedom to check that a software tool is fit for the task) and accountability (to ensure that anybody can check that a given tool does whay it says it does) are obviously restrictive factors. Closed source companies should be grateful that many foverments for many years did not care about these basic issues related to software procurement.
Thank goodness goverments are selective (i.e. restrictive) when choosing the tools they need for a given task.
IANAL but write like a drunk one.
I went to Brazillia and watched the open source debate. I think folk in the US are completely missing the plot. First off the Brazillian govt is dependent on Microsoft in the way the US govt is dependent on Cobol, Windows is their legacy infrastructure.
Secondly the big issue for the country at the moment is the balance of payments. The government is calculating that they can get better prices out of Redmond if they apply pressure.
I'm a brazilian, and I think you're right. Our current government talks a lot about changes, but they don't seem to have the guts to make any.
[]s Badaro
My sig became obsolete, and I lack the imagination to create a new one.
If we were discussing a rape case you would be playing devil's advocate saying that we should not be so biased against the *convicted* rapist.
Heck, I am sure an AC like you would even suggest that it is the victim's fault.
Pathetic.
IANAL but write like a drunk one.
"Microsoft's Moncau plays down predictions by Brazilian open-source supporters that government efforts to increase Linux use could create jobs and turn the country into a technology exporter. Open-source software could actually be more expensive than Windows programs when service costs are factored in, he said."
First off, I'm a bit suspect of this statement. But more importantly, service costs would mean the expense would go to employing people, rather than using that money for software liscences. So it would employee more people, which I'm sure the government would love. And does this argument hold water around the world, where labor costs differ so greatly? How much does a Unix Sys Admin cost in Brazil?
I know you were joking, but in ancient times, there indeed were
slaves which were happy in their slavery and did not want to be
released, even when they could have been by law (Yovel).
The bible specificly mentions a degrading ceremony done to such
a reluctant slave, within which he was branded (at his ear).
This was done by the ancient hebrews to detter people from opting
into slavery.
And I don't think fear of freedom is so different today.
Working for necessity's mother.
Ask any nerd and he will answer that Australia is the land of Samba!
45 5F E1 04 22 CA 29 C4 93 3F 95 05 2B 79 2A B2
The problem with your argument is that the Brazilian government does not have the capability to represent much of a demand.
... the more supply one has, the less demand required for that supply to be disseminated. A market with a million qualified free and open source programmers looking for a market will produce far more niche products (products which by definition have a lower level of demand than non-niche products) of far higher quality than a market of only a thousand such programmers (though the latter will produce less-niche oriented software of excellent quality, as we have seen in the early days of many free and open projects ... this quality being a function of the peer review and public criticism inherent in the free software and open source development models).
... enough to spur plenty of innovation and development, even if it is a mere pittance to the revinues of monopolists like Microsoft
... the fact of the matter is that these governnments are already large contractors, their 'thirt world' status notwithstanding, and their adoption of free software will be more than sufficient to generate the demand needed for even more outstanding open source and free software project development.
First, as local and regional expertise rises (an inevitable result of widespread adoption, even by "just" the government), of free software, the level of demand required to create a particular product (e.g. a free and open Autocad system) will go down. This is simple economics
So, at the end of the day, Autodesk may not be required for the creating of an excellent open source AutoCAD.
Second, I believe you underestimate the demand a government of a large country, even a large third world country like Brazil, can create. We are still dealing with hundreds of millions of dollars
Third, even if your assertion of Brazil's limited ability to create demand were true, your argument clearly breaks down when one considers the broader picture, namely the adoption of free software by numerous governments throughout South America and the world, including China, Germany, and others. When taken together, the demand generated by those countries which have already begun their migration away from Microsoft and toward free and open source software is already more than sufficient to create significant demand, and Brazil certainly adds signficantly to that.
Which is probably why Microsoft and its apologists are so concerned
Which, at the end of the day, is what they fear even more than the immediate losses in revinue from these countries. This is the one way the rest of the world can get out from under the technological heel of Microsoft and the United States, and frankly the only way Microsoft and its Washington, D.C. subsidiary (the Bush Administration) can prevent this is through massive deception (which, alas for them, doesn't seem to be working), buying off corrupt politicians (Microsoft has been there, done that, and found they don't stay bought for long), draconian laws (that will harm the local economies of the US and other such countries far more than they will help by propping up monopolies such as Microsoft), or military invasion (which isn't practical for reasons too numerous to mention here).
In other words, the demand is already present, is already having an impact and spurring widespread development of exactly these tools, and is clearly growing geometricly in magnitude, and all Microsoft apologist rhetoric aside, it will only be stopped through the use of the government gun, either via legislation banning the entire free software paradigm outright (good luck keeping any kind of competative marketplace in tact in the context of such legislation), or military force.
Deception isn't working, draconian laws are already sabatoging the very economies they were intended to prop up, and, frankly, the rest of the world is sick and tired of being pushed around by the United States, so more direct coercion is unlikely. Buying off politicians through corruption works occasionally, but as Microsoft has recently learned in Peru, bought of politicians seldom remain bought-off, nor do they tend to remain in power indefinitely.
The Future of Human Evolution: Autonomy
Smartest thing an AC has said in a while.
Give me Classic Slashdot or give me death!
The law didn't pass also because most of the parties and deputies have no interest or knowledge in the matter. They never tought about it, and given the opportunity to analise it they chose the easy way. Of course lobbying by Microsoft/APS played it's role, but the causes are more rooted in sheer ignorance of the matter at hand than anything else.
At least I'm glad our brazilian brethren managed to succeed in their endeavour. Better days will come to us, I suppose, and until then every successful example of transition to free software will likely change the way uninformed people view it.
cheers,
fsmunoz
You can live on an island, but you drown in the ocean.
Even in the case of well-known features with copious amounts of documentation, underutilization of expensive Microsoft software is commonplace. I have seen more than a few cases of SMS and Active Directory implementations that sit unused (or barely used), after tens of thousands have been spent on consultants, hardware, and software. User ignorance is the problem, even when the users are technical professionals. Since most companies do not have the resources to train every technician in the counterintuitive operations of these complex systems (with $5000 'educational' 2-week seminars), the end result is a system that creates more work than it eliminates. Which makes the software worse than useless, literally.
============
Together, we will drive the rats from the tundra.
From the parent post: "... first world..."
Have a look at this comparison between the United States and Brazil:
Size of country:
Brazil is approximately the same size as the continental United States.
Population
Brazil: 160,000,000.
U.S.: 270,000,000.
Dominant culture:
Brazil: European.
U.S.: European.
Minorities: Brazil has a higher proportion of Blacks than the U.S.
Government:
Brazil: Democracy
U.S.: Democracy
Physical Health:
Brazil: Most people are slim.
U.S.: The U.S. is the most obese country in the world.
War:
Brazil: Apparently the last war was in 1820.
U.S.: At least 50 wars and "police actions" in the last 100 years. The U.S. government has killed an estimated 3,000,000 people directly since the second world war. Most of those were in the Vietnam war. An estimated additional 3,000,000 have been killed indirectly as a result of U.S. government actions.
Murder rates in the most violent city. These statistics are old; apparently both cities have reduced their murder rate:
Brazil, Rio: 45 per 100,000 per year.
U.S., Washington, D.C.: 77 per 100,000 per year.
Percentage of population in prison, or involved with the criminal justice system:
Brazil: I believe about that of European countries, and about one-sixth that of the U.S.
U.S.: The highest in the world. The U.S. is rapidly building new prisons, and preparing for an even higher percentage. (Some people say Russia has a higher rate.)
System of measurement:
Brazil: Metric system
U.S.: Old, foolish English system. The foot is the length of an English king's foot.
Surveillance:
Brazil: Not known for government surveillance.
U.S.: The U.S. government spends a huge amount of money on surveillance. The taxpayers are not allowed to know how much that is; they just pay, they have no rights over the surveillance departments. The U.S. government's FBI, CIA, NSA, and other departments are a global secret police force. It is said that the U.S. government breaks U.S. law using the technique of hiring the Israeli secret police to do things that are illegal if done by U.S. government departments.
Health of the Family:
Brazil: In many families, strong.
U.S.: In many families, amazingly weak.
Voting:
Brazil: Open-Source voting machines, paper verification.
U.S.: Last president decided by politically interested Supreme Court. Closed-source voting machines, and much evidence of fraud. No paper verification.
Now, is it obvious which country is the better one?
But anyway, I don't want to sound like I'm defending protectionism -- it really cost Brazil a lot in IT. Lazy, government-protected companies selling outdated hardware for almost three times the US price, because importing US hardware meant paying 10 times more in tariffs. That really hurt.
Fortunately, it doesn't seem like the Brazilian government is headed for protectionist measures again -- it's not forbidding Microsoft from competing. The costs from deploying Linux just seem dramatically lower than importing software for the same task, even after considering its deficiencies.
Eduardo, see this comment: Brazil or U.S.: Which is better? #7494436
It isn't FUD. There are parts of some controls and such in VB6 that are either undocumented or the documentation is just plain wrong.
I do not know what Microsoft's policy is on such matters, but I do know that without paying for support, you probably won't get it. Even then, they might point you to VB.net as opposed to addressing the problem.
Doesn't matter if they run Windows, Mac, or *nix, they're still on their own intranet because they pissed off so many e-mail admins.
- blocking 200.0.0.0/7
tarquin_fim_bim wrote:
Yes, you do, sometimes--for example, if you want to use hardware that isn't supported by the binary kernel(s) you have.
And if you do, you will find many kernel options are undocumented. That was SuperBanana's point.
Are you saying you think SuperBanana's intention was to scare people away from using Linux by spreading fear, uncertainty and doubt? How did you arrive at that conclusion? Do you think no one could sincerely believe the Linux kernel is poorly documented?
The bible specificly mentions a degrading ceremony done to such a reluctant slave, within which he was branded (at his ear).
The bible also says that the world was created by an omnipotent God and a lot of other stuff that's unbelievable to me, so why should I believe that?
Okay I'm neither European nor British, I'm Australian and I think that playing the "their just as bad as we are game" is stupid and infantile. The US has been pushing globalisation for the last twenty years, but only on its terms. Other countries are declared to be agaisnt the free market if they protect their local producers however the states slaps massive tariffs on imported steel, lamb, agricultural goods etc etc and everything is fine??
Yep Europe is just as bad, so what, to paraphrase my mother "If Europe jumped off a bridge would you do it as well?"
Ocaam's razor.
I don't believe the mystical elements of the bible either,
But I do believe the codes and laws in the bible to reflect certain
social situation, or at least a certain collective state of mind.
Why should this directive be included, if there was no need ? If there
were no slaves wishing to stay enslaved ?
If you find that so hard to believe, consider the closest (legal)
thing that western societies have to slavery: military service.
A soldier, in a reasonable army at least, is not a slave, but
the situations are quite akin. And still there are people choosing
this situation of lack of freedom. Not all due to idealism.
Working for necessity's mother.
Fair points, however be aware that the Bible and other such text are at least partially propaganda designed to retail selective anecdotes to support a particular world view. They shouldn't be viewed as unbiased or accurate recording of events that occurred.
actualy admiral bean ( it think thats the right spelling) mandated that all military computers use MS) we get away wis OS X because we do research. promply after setting this up he retired and got a 500,000$/year job at MS draw your own conclusions.
There's a company in Australia that provides internet kiosk terminals that run on Linux.
It's set up so well that few people notice it's actually running linux and galeon.
I've tried it myself and found it quite useful.
Samples of products can be found here
More info available on the site for those interested.
Start counting your transistors (But not the purple ones!), you lazy bum.
ROFL
:)
You had me spitting my coffee over that
Good one
You're right: my post has nothing to do with the story, but is specially related to the original post being replyed.
Just admit you hate the US.
Unfortunately for you I don't hate US, nor any country from Europe, as you seems to do.
Usually I would not reply this kind of message, since it seems like a troll answer, but I must do that to make my position clear: I do not like most US government actions taken in under-developed countries in the last 200 years. It doesn't mean I like the way my country is being used by its own politicians, specifically the last dictartorship period (1964-1990), specially the seventies. The same opinion about many european countries in the past.
But there is something I have nothing against: the US people. Why? I have a business visa that allowed me to really know american people, some of them I confess are good friends of mine.
So let me come back to the topic: many of you already knows about Order 39 of Mr. Bremer. If you do not, just google it ;-) This is the kind of action I'm talking about
In the other hand, I really do like the UN plans for the International Year of Rice 2004 and many other UN initiatives. Supporting poor countries in producing their own food is a good solutions instead of distributing food. Anyway I think US may continue this kind of action while not effectively helping to restore peace, nor giving conditions to make the country economicaly independent, what really solves the problem. UN did not have very good results on both in the past, the Security Council is powerful enougth to not care about it. But other members of UN are trying hard on those priorities and I'll give them a chance. Even some people from US staff at UN are trying to do the right thing. And I subscribe to their ideas and efforts.
About da Silva efforts in being an administratively responsible president, I agree that it's not good to see a few billion dollars going to other country for the sole purpose of paying licenses instead of being spent on the internal economy. If Brazil did not have so many problems related to poverty to solve, it would not be a big issue, but it's not the case.
Another issue about poverty: most poor countries were very rich colonies and also the most productive ones. Sadly almost every good administered colony usually became a very poor country, which went through (and still suffers from) dictatorship and civil war periods.
If we're not careful, within a few years Linux may be the 'free software that sucks' in computer labs around the world. Kids will go home and tell dad what NOT to get.
A Good Intro to NetBS
...comes within hailing distance of it in the accuracy stakes.
Got time? Spend some of it coding or testing
Such as the verifiable/falsifiable details about evolution, geology, cosmology? Or do you refer to the complete absence of details about the Trojan War, the details of the Roman Republic (and earlier)? Or do they not count as "ancient"? I suspect we're not going to agree on the Bible as an unbiased source of information about human behaviour and psychology, and the "accuracy" of the bible will probably differ for us depending on whether or not we accept some of the tenets of the Bible. Thanks for the civil response however.
All manner of fine historical detail. E.g. the Bible referred to one particular pool using the dual form of the name, which was disputed for centuries as an example of its inaccuracy and poor use of language - until the pool was found, dug up and discovered to have been two pools, connected by a channel.
If I was writing a history of the Plantagenets, I'm not sure why I would see any reason to include material describing the Ti Ping Revolution. (-:
Only true in a limited sense. There are certain classes of statements that we will each take differently, but there are large amounts of text (and "defused" views of text which would be controversial on strictly philosophical grounds) which are a simple historical record, and a presumption of materialism should not change one's understanding of them noticeably.
You can quickly get mired in philosophical tar here. The statement "everything in the Bible is true" is manifestly false: the Bible accurately records lies. The recording is accurate, the content is a lie. Calling the Bible "the word of God" is also risky, because the words of Satan are also recorded in it in several passages.
However, there are many attributes of the text which are pretty much literally incredible from a materialistic point of view. I'll take a second pass at that. There are many historical, literative, and other attributes of the Bible which are well beyond coincidence, and in other places the recorded information contains details which are beyond the abilities of any of the civilisations we know of which could possibly have written it to have discovered.
Got time? Spend some of it coding or testing