Northwest Gives Personal Data to NASA

Tree writes "Following four months on the heels of JetBlue's confession that they released passenger data to the Feds against their stated privacy guidelines, the Washington Post is reporting that Northwest has now admitted that they've done the same thing during a time period when they said they weren't. Nice. They were once my favorite airline."

Comments

Not NSA but NASA?

[TheAngryArmadillo]

I was sure the submitter meant the NSA but looking at the story it really was NASA.

Are they going to be sharing this info with the Martian Immigration Service?

Re:Not NSA but NASA?

[innerlimit]

the editor is probably on 'mars' time and forgot his morning coffee....

Re:Not NSA but NASA?

[Anonymous Coward]

When my mother found out that her father had a long lost son, and that son worked for NASA, the very first thing he asked for when contacted was the names, address, and social security numbers of everyone in our immediate family. NASA has some of the tighest security in the US, maybe even the world. The reason for that security I'll leave up to your imaginations.

Re:Not NSA but NASA?

[headbonz]

Nope. If you took the time to read the article, you would have seen that the poster has it right: The data were given to NASA, not to the NSA. Of course, the NSA probably already has all of that information...

Re:Not NSA but NASA?

[Orgasmatron]

According to the article, it really was NASA. Unless there were about 30 typos in the story...

Re:Not NSA but NASA?

[Echnin]

If you took time to read what you're replying to, you would have seen that the OP didn't disagree with the article poster. S/he was just claryfying the point for others who may be confused about this.

Re:Not NSA but NASA?

[Zocalo]

Indeed. I thought that MSN had simply mistakenly put NASA instead of NSA and the poster hadn't picked up on it too. The clincher however is the reference to "Ames Research Center" which is indeed a NASA facility. I guess they don't want Marvin the Martian visiting the US anytime soon...

Re:Not NSA but NASA?

[Anonymous Coward]

Damn ths "Big Brother" spell checking program.

Re:Not NSA but NASA?

[Tony Hoyle]

Why would NASA need this data? Looking for volunteers to send to Mars or something?

I could more easily believe a typo...

Re:Not NSA but NASA?

[mattyp]

The clincher however is the reference to "Ames Research Center"

sure it's not Aldrich Ames?

maybe carnivore sticks the n-"A"-sa in if it sees a story about NSA.

Re:Not NSA but NASA?

[Zocalo]

I could believe a typo too, but not numerous identical ones.

Re:Not NSA but NASA?

[wideBlueSkies]

From the article:

NASA said it used the information to investigate whether "data mining" of the records could improve assessments of threats posed by passengers, according to the agency's written responses to questions. At the time the agency also was exploring other possible projects aimed at improving air security...

Interesting how a seemingly unrelated government entity can become part of the story. Whether or not this experiment panned out, the decision to do this does show some creative thinking. Cool.

But then again, NASA is a military resouce at times, so maybe this isn't such a suprising development.

wbs.

Re:Not NSA but NASA?

[DrEldarion]

They have special alien technology which allows them to be completely accurate in asessing passenger risk.

Re:Not NSA but NASA?

[_Sprocket_]

Interesting how a seemingly unrelated government entity can become part of the story.

NASA shares its expertise in different ways. I worked with an engineer who normaly developed various tools for use in space (one of his favorite was an emergency device used in case an astronaut got seperated from the structure during EVA). He also worked on a university research project to help develop a continuous flow heart pump.

Re:Not NSA but NASA?

[cyclist1200]

I think they're trying to keep out illegal aliens...

Re:Not NSA but NASA?

[_Sprocket_]

I guess they don't want Marvin the Martian visiting the US anytime soon...

Oh, c'mon. Its got nothing to do with imigration. Its simply an extension of NASA's work with the Grey. NASA is working on additional pools of candidates for the on-going technology / genetics transfer program. Nothing to get excited about.

Re:Not NSA but NASA?

[phliar]

NASA is the National Aeronautics and Space Administration. Before space became cool, they used to be called NACA -- the National Advisory Committee for Aeronautics. (Only newbies pronounced it "nacka" -- cool people said N A C A. The name was changed in 1958.) Just about all aviation research for US WW2 airplanes came from NACA, for instance. NASA still has the responsibility for aviation research.

One of the cool programs that NASA Ames (at Moffett Field in Mountain View, Silicon Valley) has is the Aviation Safety Reporting Program for crew. If there's a safety issue on any flight, crew members are encouraged to send in an ASRS report. If you screw up in some way and cause an unsafe condition, and file an ASRS report, you get immunity from any FAA enforcement action related to the incident. Anonymised versions of these incidents are available in the ASRS newsletter "Callback." This program has done many orders of magnitude more for safety than any TSA Code Yella (or whatever the hell it is today) ever did.

Of course this present hysteria-driven incident is repugnant. There is no way to be utterly safe, and infringing on citizens' privacy for some dubious profiling benefit is complete crap. I don't see how it's even constitutional to require gummint-issued photo ID from passengers. In a free society one is not expected to have "papers" to move about in one's own country. It doesn't even increase security: any high-school kid will be able to tell you how to get a fake drivers' license.

Re:Not NSA but NASA?

[the_mad_poster]

Interesting how a seemingly unrelated government entity can become part of the story.

National Aeronautics and Space Administration

NASA is, undoubtedly, most well known for its space initiatives. However, they have their fingers in everything from complicated probes on other planets to medicine here on earth. They help develop commercial technology that you use every day of your life and they do cutting edge research into any number of scientific fields that you may well not hear about for another decade or more, if ever.

Frankly, NASA is probably second only to FEMA for underestimation of agency influence within the country. Those two agencies are either known only for very specific things, or never even thought about, but they have exceptionally broad, far-reaching powers and their fingers are in pretty much anything you can think of, even if you don't notice it.

Re:Not NSA but NASA?

[beanyk]

I don't see how it's even constitutional to require gummint-issued photo ID from passengers. In a free society one is not expected to have "papers" to move about in one's own country.

Perhaps, but isn't there a bootstrapping problem here? How do you prove it's your own country without presenting papers of some sort? What other reasonable way is there to tell? Language? Skin colour? Oath of loyalty? General knowledge test?

Re:Not NSA but NASA?

[Molina the Bofh]

Obviously they don't want terrorists to hijack a plane and crash it on Mars.

Re:Not NSA but NASA?

[joshuac]

(one of his favorite was an emergency device used in case an astronaut got seperated from the structure during EVA).

Ok, I'll bite...what was it, a harpoon?

Re:Not NSA but NASA?

[phliar]

How do you prove it's your own country without presenting papers of some sort?

It's completely reasonable that when crossing an international border you have to show evidence you're ok to enter a country. You do need to present this evidence before entering the US. We can therefore presume that anyone already inside the country is here legally.

Yes of course there are illegal aliens inside the borders. You can't infringe on citizens' and legal aliens' rights to make up for the shortcomings of the INS or the Border Patrol.

Re:Not NSA but NASA?

[Anonymous Coward]

For those who wish to - this a press release from Northwest Airlines. It is, in fact, NASA. :-)

Re:Not NSA but NASA?

[Nanoda]

I've always figured that engineers should have something similar to the ASRS. I'm absolutely certain that hundreds of near-fatal design "oops"'s have been discovered at the last minute, and yet nobody else in a position to make those same mistakes is aware of it.

As someone who hopes one day to get a private pilots licence, by reading the ASRS I've found out about loads of common mistakes, many of the "holy crap that was close!" variety. The same thing would be harder to implement for the computing industry, but if done right could prevent Therac-25 or London Ambulance Service CADS style disasters.

Re:Not NSA but NASA?

[joshuac]

Darn, I got quite a laugh out of the idea of a space station armor piercing harpoon carried by astronauts on EVA's. Would kinda guarantee everyone on the station would be watching very closely to be certain the guy outside didn't drift too far.

Re:Not NSA but NASA?

[fourharpoon]

Are they going to be sharing this info with the Martian Immigration Service?

Not really... they just want to check, among those who flew, how many have not yet returned to earth.

Re:Not NSA but NASA?

[_Sprocket_]

Both you and the AC who responded are close.

The initial designs involved a telescopic rod. Experiments on the Vomit Commet proved that once extended, the astronaut would be unable to maneuver the rod effectively (the test subject would attempt to move the rod and end up twisting themselves about with the rod remaining stationary). So that idea was scrapped and the engineer in question began working on the problem.

His design was effectively a compressed gas source connected to a hose with a hook on its end. The device itself would store nice and compact with the hose itself bunched up on to the device (kind of telescoped I suppose). The astronaut would arm the device and squeeze a lever to dump gas in to the inflatable hose and extend it towards the structure. With low mass, the extended hose can then be moved about until the astronaut is able to hook the structure. They can then deflate the host and pull themselves to safety.

Another tidbit about working for NASA - one retains ownership of one's ideas. NASA legal helped the engineer patent his device (with a royalty free provision for NASA use, of course). The device itself has been picked up in the civilian market as rescue gear for rescuing victims caught in thin ice or out in a river.

It's the lying that hurts...

[blackdefiance]

Like my parents used to say... "It's not that we're so angry that you did [insert bad thing here], it's that you lied to us about it.

Re:It's the lying that hurts...

[sulli]

So can we smack Northwest? Or lock them in their room all night without (economy class airliine) dinner?

Re:It's the lying that hurts...

[buelba]

Depending on what happens to Northwest's stock price on Tuesday, this one may really hurt. Under the Securities Act of 1934 and rule 10b-5 promulgated thereunder:

It shall be unlawful for any person, directly or indirectly, by the use of any means or instrumentality of interstate commerce, or of the mails or of any facility of any national securities exchange,
To employ any device, scheme, or artifice to defraud,
To make any untrue statement of a material fact or to omit to state a material fact necessary in order to make the statements made, in the light of the circumstances under which they were made, not misleading, or
To engage in any act, practice, or course of business which operates or would operate as a fraud or deceit upon any person,
in connection with the purchase or sale of any security.

In practice, what this means is that if a company (whether or not through a director or officer) lies about something material to the stock price, people who buy during the period of market manipulation (essentially, from the date of the lie until the truth is revealed) can recover for their damages (generally but not always what they paid minus the "true value" of the stock when they bought it).

Setting the "true value" of a stock on a given date, absent the market manipulation, is obviously an excursion into the hypothetical. One strong indicator, however, is how much the stock falls when the truth is revealed. So watch Northwest when the market opens and, if it falls a lot, expect to see securities lawsuits as well as privacy lawsuits.

Re:It's the lying that hurts...

[I Be Hatin']

In practice, what this means is that if a company (whether or not through a director or officer) lies about something material to the stock price, people who buy during the period of market manipulation (essentially, from the date of the lie until the truth is revealed) can recover for their damages (generally but not always what they paid minus the "true value" of the stock when they bought it).

In practice, what this means is people who buy during the period of market manipulation can be part of a class action suit, from which they'll receive a few pennies, and the lawyers representing them will receive several million dollars.

And before you start to think that I'm just being cynical, my part of the recent Schwartz-CitiBank $27 million dollar class action suit was a credit on my bill for $0.09. The lawyers got $9 million.

So watch Northwest when the market opens and, if it falls a lot, expect to see securities lawsuits as well as privacy lawsuits.

And even if it doesn't fall a lot, expect to see securities and privacy lawsuits brought by civic-minded **cough** lawyers.

Re:It's the lying that hurts...

[buelba]

In practice, what this means is people who buy during the period of market manipulation can be part of a class action suit, from which they'll receive a few pennies, and the lawyers representing them will receive several million dollars.

Of course, clearly that happens sometimes. The system has a lot of problems, which are complex and outside the scope of this topic. The point I was making was simply that Northwest probably faces liability greater than, say, JetBlue's, because they not only violated privacy but also (apparently beyond doubt) publicly lied about it.

And before you start to think that I'm just being cynical, my part of the recent Schwartz-CitiBank $27 million dollar class action suit was a credit on my bill for $0.09. The lawyers got $9 million.

I think I got 20 cents in that same settlement. Schwartz was not a securities case, of course; big securities class actions can actually result in pretty real money for class members. It's doubtful that any Northwest suits will, but we'll have more of an idea on Tuesday.

Re:It's the lying that hurts...

[wornst]

Um . . . "in connection with the purchase or sale of any security."

10b-5 can't be employed the way you're purporting it can be.

10(b) is a "catchall" anti-fraud provision, but it requires a plaintiff to carry a heavier burden to establish a cause of action. A section 10(b) action can be brought by a purchaser or seller of any security against any person which has used any manipulative or deceptive device or contrivance IN CONNECTION with the purchase and sale of a security.

Maybe it was a lie when Northwest said it would not give out "personal information" to the government, but the lie was almost certainly not perpetrated in connection with teh purchase or sale of a security. If a plaintiff made that allegation, I would love to see what kind of portfolio they hold because that is not the type of material information that one usually uses to buy or sell stocks with.

You would have better luck with 14a-9(a) but then you would have a causation/materiality nexus problem in which it would be HIGHLY unlikely that this kind of "omission" would lead to some sort of santion.

Re:It's the lying that hurts...

[buelba]

Maybe it was a lie when Northwest said it would not give out "personal information" to the government, but the lie was almost certainly not perpetrated in connection with teh purchase or sale of a security. If a plaintiff made that allegation, I would love to see what kind of portfolio they hold because that is not the type of material information that one usually uses to buy or sell stocks with.

I'm sorry to report that you misunderstand current securities law:

Under settled Supreme Court precedent, a rebuttable presumption of transaction causation may be established under the "fraud on the market" theory, even where a plaintiff was unaware of the fraudulent conduct at the time of the purchase or sale.

The fraud on the market theory is based on the hypothesis that, in an open and developed securities market, the price of a company's stock is determined by the available material information regarding the company and its business ... Misleading statements will therefore defraud purchasers of stock even if the purchasers do not directly rely on the misstatements ... The causal connection between the defendants' fraud and the plaintiffs' purchase of stock in such a case is no less significant than in a case of direct reliance on misrepresentations.

Pleading the applicability of the fraud on the market theory, therefore, fulfills a plaintiff's transaction causation pleading requirement.

In re Initial Public Offering Securities Litigation, 21 MC 92 (SAS) [2003 U.S. Dist. LEXIS 23267 at *4-5] (S.D.N.Y. December 31, 2003) (quoting Basic Inc. v. Levinson, 485 U.S. 224, 241-42, 99 L. Ed. 2d 194, 108 S. Ct. 978 (1988)) (footnotes and internal quotation marks omitted).

Never thought I'd be talking fraud on the market on Slashdot...

Re:It's the lying that hurts...

[wornst]

In the Basic case the Supreme Court did "adopt" the fraud on the market theory. However, that was a four-two decision with three justices not participating and therefore cannot be considered to have definitively resolved this question.

Two of the four justices of the plurality have departed and the three who did not participate were conservative. The plurality conceded that reliance is an element of a 10b5 cause of action and limited the holding to this question of whether a rebuttable presumption should be established to satisfy that requirement.

I would hardly say this is "settled" Supreme Court jurisprudence (how settled is any S.Ct decision anyway) as a shep shows a full third distinguished and neutrals. Anyway, as applied to "privacy issues" a fraud on the market analysis is n o t g o i n g t o w o r k. I would say a suit based on that behavior borders on frivolous. I mean c'mon.

Re:It's the lying that hurts...

[gilroy]

Blockquoth the poster:

Anyway, as applied to "privacy issues" a fraud on the market analysis is n o t g o i n g t o w o r k. I would say a suit based on that behavior borders on frivolous. I mean c'mon.

Well, it depends on how seriously people take privacy. Evidence right now is that people will trade it for an extra bag of Fritos. But if it were highly valued, then companies that violate privacy would be punished in the marketplace. That further would mean that companies that violate privacy would be punished in the stock market, since one could reasonably expect their earnings to suffer. But now we have a motive for the Northwest lie -- and it is reasonable to say it was done to prop up the price, which would otherwise have taken a hit.

I'm not sure if you can convince a judge that privacy concerns drive public opinion enough to affect stock prices, but the argument isn't prima facie silly.

Re:It's the lying that hurts...

[wornst]

I think the evidence now is that people on Slashdot take privacy issues seriously. The vast majority of people only take it seriously when someone sees them doing something they shouldn't be doing or uses personal information to catch them trying to do something they shouldn't be trying to do.

Northwest, and every other company, is just in the position of not having found a "nice" way of telling people that they are handing over personal information. The S.Ct. roadblock opinion is perfectly on point - if you can catch a criminal and I only have to be momentarily detained that's okay. If the government can use personal information to keep everyone safe, I am sure most everyone would not care.

Yes, your argument can be made, but it really does not apply to manipulations of stocks and it is wrong of you to give people that impression. Legally, this is one of those constitutional right of the citizen to be free from governmental intrusion cases, not a securities case.

On these facts I would say it is prima facie - at first glance - silly. On different facts I think you make a very interesting point that deserves further inspection. It would take some very interesting facts, and be from perhaps a different type of business enterprise.

Perhaps an industry that thrives on secrecy where that would be up there in the primary concerns of stockholders in that industry. Hey, maybe someone who bought 30 year T-Bills has a case. Considering how much President Bush and his administration have lied to the American people, who knows if the US will be around to pay that debt.

That's some major fraud on the market.

Bad news, Mr. al-Hassan.....

[Anonymous Coward]

We're sending you to Mars because of your ties to terrorist groups. Nothing personal, you understand, right?

Re:Bad news, Mr. al-Hassan.....

[Shut the fuck up!]

We're sending you to Mars because of your ties to terrorist groups.

Ok. If that's what it takes to get to go to Mars. Anyone know if you can join Al Qaida by email?

Re:Bad news, Mr. al-Hassan.....

[Usquebaugh]

Sure send a letter of intent to spooks@nsa.gov

Re:Bad news, Mr. al-Hassan.....

[geekoid]

Did they mention it was one kilo at a time?

Re:Bad news, Mr. al-Hassan.....

[Blue Stone]

" Sure send a letter of intent to spooks@nsa.gov"

Since it was the CIA that helped train and fund most of the basic infrastructure of al-Qaeda, maybe he should try blowbackunit@cia.gov.

Repeat after me...

[lisany]

We do not live in a police state. The Government trusts us. Donald Rumsfeld is infallable. All hail Bush.

Re:Repeat after me...

[Anonymous Coward]

Cheney, get back to your undisclosed location!

Re:Repeat after me...

[Anonymous Coward]

I guess this is what they had to do to get that extra funding.

Re:Repeat after me...

[petabyte]

I believe you meant Ashcroft. Rumsfeld (though I'm sure he has many faults) really could not be construed as creating a police state in the US. That would be the Attorney General.

Then again, if you live in Iraq, then I guess Rumsfeld would apply.

Re:Repeat after me...

[Anonymous Coward]

Oh I see, a dig at the Bush administration gets a +5 Funny, but the equally hilarious dig at the Clinton regime gets a -1, Troll.

I'm not really the geek type, could someone tell me when geek == filthy leftist hippy started evaluating to TRUE?

Re:Repeat after me...

[Anonymous Coward]

Because the parent post is relevant and true, while your dig is old, tired, and we have heard the same lies a thousand times on Fox News?

Get a clue...

Re:Repeat after me...

[strike2867]

what lies on Fox News are repeated? please specify these lies that merits the demonization of that organization.

Slashdot does not have enough memory to store everything reported by Fox News.

Privacy Implications

[barenaked]

So what will you when every toll road you travel on by car passes your travel details automatically to law enforcement based on your license plate? Or when one day every intersection has a camera collecting this kind of information? Or when there's a camera doing face recognition on every street corner, evaluating whether you are a terrorist or not? Will you just stay at home all day? I think a more proactive stance is needed here. Getting the general public to understand the privacy implications of these systems so they stop voting for people that put them in place is probably a lot more effective.

Re:Privacy Implications

[0123456]

"Getting the general public to understand the privacy implications of these systems so they stop voting for people that put them in place is probably a lot more effective."

But over 50% of the population have _already_ figured out that there's no difference between voting for the control-freak Democrat candidate or the control-freak Republican candidate, and don't vote for either.

Re:Privacy Implications

[Endive4Ever]

And the pity is that the small-c conservatives get shouted down in the Republican party. The whole goal of that branch of conservativsm is to take away the power of government. The 'silent majority' you speak of would have their voice in said 'movement' although sadly once a 'cut back government' type gets elected, he seems to always find new things he wants government to do.

Re:Privacy Implications

[iabervon]

Perhaps they ought to vote for a non-control-freak Democrat in the primary. If they did, they'd have a good candidate in the election, and this candidate would win by a landslide.

Re:Privacy Implications

[bennomatic]

Unfortunately, the general public has a mentality that these sort of tools are only used against criminals. "If you don't do anything wrong," they say, "you have nothing to fear from these things."

It's long been understood by leaders from the smallest tribes to the most bloodthirsty dictatorships that these sorts of means of control can be put in place by demonizing a small enough sector of society that a majority is willing to go along with the program.

Re:Privacy Implications

[ChazeFroy]

Northwest customer service: 701-420-6282
Web feedback form: http://www.nwa.com/cgi-bin/gen_misc.pl

Re:Privacy Implications

[MoronGames]

Vote libertarian! Break the chain!

Re:Privacy Implications

[lizrd]

Too late by that point anyway. The viable choices now seem to be Dean, Gephart and Kerry, all control freak assholes.

'Course the whole process is pretty fucked. Probably not my place to complain since I live in Iowa, but it really chaps my ass that there isn't a way for me to vote absentee in the caucus. Puts me in the same boat as someone from New Jersey who only gets one name on the ballot by the time it's their turn to vote.

Fuckers all of them.

Re:Privacy Implications

[Rosco P. Coltrane]

If you ever steal a car, never take it into London. They will know about it.

Or steal a bus.

Re:Privacy Implications

[surprise_audit]

Face recognition cameras would have to be pretty fucking smart to be able to deal with a wide range of faces, especially when, at the moment, there's no law against:

1) growing/shaving beards/moustaches;
2) switching between eyeglasses, contacts, sunglasses (plain dark or mirrored);
3) switching between various kinds of hats and/or wigs;
4) cutting, shaving or growing hair;
5) etc...

Static intersection camers would need to focus on relatively close faces, so it would be trivial to "switch faces" between cameras, effectively disappearing.

But all that's irrelevant. What are the cameras looking for? Faces of known terrorists, presumably? Yeah, that worked really well the day the WTC came down. Wasn't Atta a known terrorist? Yet he was in the country, learned to fly a plane, then walked onto one. OK, so automated face recognition might have picked Atta out more reliably than a tired, overworked gate guard.

How many of Atta's associates were also known terrorists at the time of the attack? How many other "American Taliban's" are there, born and raised in the USA and therefore able to pass a background check? How many terrorists of other nationalities whose faces are not known? How many false positives will occur?

Re:Privacy Implications

[lindsayt]

Yes. This has been a point of mine for a lot of years: True civil-libertarian liberals (not big-L Libertarians) and true small-government conservatives agree on this issue - government should not be able to spy on its people and should not be able to take away the rights granted in various amendments to the Constitution. This is the reason that, in recent years, despite its former "Scary Liberal" associations, many small-c conservatives such as Bob Barr and Dick Armey have been joining the American Civil Liberties Union, one of the only large political organizations that fights without party affiliation for individual freedoms and protections.

My only question is, when will all the small-government conservatives realize that the authoritarian Neo-Cons have taken over their party, and when will the civil-libertarian left realize that the Left's agenda doesn't require an all-seeing government, and that a government can provide social services without tracking every last detail about its citizenry? When will these two groups, who have so much in common, unite to get rid of the authoritarian assholes who are controlling the two parties? The parties are about power, and as such they are poor defenders of the rights of the People.

Okay, that was a rant that's probably OT; more related to the story, I'm an NWA stockholder and fly on NWA all the time. I've already written my enraged letter to them, and I plan personally to keep writing them until I get reasonable assurances that this will not happen again. For all I know the study may be quite useful and harmless; but if NWA told me they wouldn't share the data, they damn well better not share the data.

Re:Privacy Implications

[hey!]

And the pity is that the small-c conservatives get shouted down in the Republican party.

As a liberal, I havereal respect for a true Burkean conservative. Unlike the neoCons, who went from being the lunatic fringe of the left to the lunatic fringe of the right.

One point that I think needs to be reiterated is that if you want elections with real choices, real diversity of offerings, you have to get rid of plurality voting. Plurality voting (person with the most votes wins) aside from its numerous mathematical faults in three way or larger elections, pretty much guarantees you will have a party of the left, a party of the right, that both parties will adhere to a bland centrism while throwing the occasional raw meat to their extreme wings. To some degree an incident like 9/11 can empower a side to do something, but it's only a short term glitch.

Real debate would have more dimensions than one, and really effective elections more choices than two.

Re:Privacy Implications

[dave420]

You can't demand privacy when you're in public. That's what being in public means.

What do you want? Everyone walking around blindfolded so they can't see who's doing what?

Northworst?

[PiranhaEx]

They were your favorite airline? You obviously don't live in Detroit. Here, we call them Northworst, and it really doesn't surprise me. This is after they've used taxpayer money to build an addition to our airport that they're now calling the "Northwest World Gateway," totally ignoring its actual name.

Re:Northworst?

[Mantorp]

I think airlines would be wise to avoid the word "west" in their names as the same thing happened to America Worst (West). Avoid them at all cost, man they suck.

Re:Northworst?

[Jahf]

When flying to the NE US regularly a couple of years ago Northwest was the most comfortable and courteous airline around. Definitely my flight of choice from Nashville -> Philly or Detroit. Don't know much about their home rep, but I definitely liked their flights.

My other choice was usually Delta (to the SE US) or American. Delta is about the rudest airline to fly and even though American has a policy to expand passenger space, I was always getting stuck on TINY American Eagle flights (kinda like now where I always get stuck on a Frontier commuter instead of their much hyped Airbus flights).

Point? Not much, haven't flown on NW for awhile now (I think my miles expire this year).

Re:Northworst?

[ari_j]

At least you have options. I lived in North Dakota for 21 years, and Northworst essentially has a monopoly there. I had to drive 2 hours to get on a damn DC-9 to Minneapolis (another of NWA's hubs, along with Detroit and Memphis) and take a transfer from there. While in college, I was prone to drive the 4 1/2 hours to Minneapolis and fly Frontier or Sun Country from there.

That said, I flew a Northworst/KLM combination flight to Athens and back. KLM is no comparison to Northworst - wonderful service; attractive, friendly stewardesses; better seats; and more. If you have to spend 2 hours on Northworst to get 10 hours on KLM, do it.

But for domestic flights that go over or near Denver en route, I now prefer Frontier. Especially with their revamped fleet of Airbuses. I recently flew with them on a plane that had only been in service for 2 weeks since it was brand new, replete with DirecTV in every seat-back. (I didn't pay the $5 because I had a book, but I watched the moving map a lot.) A little more expensive than other 'budget' airlines, but worth it in terms of service and comfort.

Re:Northworst?

[CracktownHts]

You obviously don't live in Detroit. Here, we call them Northworst, and it really doesn't surprise me.

The correct name is "Edward H. McNamara/Northwest WorldGateway, and Northwest airlines picked up a good part of the tab. It's only fair that they get to stick their name on it too. Were you so attached to the dump that was the old Wayne County Airport? Most travellers weren't, I can assure you (I used to work at NWA, in the good old days before World War II I/II started).

At any rate, it's rather disappointing to read about this lack of honesty on the part of NWA. Their PR folks claim that they didn't technically violate their privacy policy, and they're probably technically right, but it violates the spirit of the policy. I have a paid ticket on NWA in the near future, and believe me I'd cancel it and demand a refund if I had the resources to fight their system, but since I don't I'll just gripe about it on /.

Re:Northworst?

[geekoid]

thats going to happen to any name.

When trying to figure out a name for my child, I tried to find one that nobody could make fun of. not possible, so I went with a familt name, Richard Smallberries.

Re:Northworst?

[smacktits]

Not in my many experiences with them. I've flown on them about eight or ten times, and they were always on time, the staff were polite, and they never lost my luggage once. And their prices are reasonable too. About the only thing I disliked was their cheese flavoured pretzels.

Re:Northworst?

[wwi]

Amen. Worst airline I've
ever been forced to deal with.
Worse yet was ATA (not forced
to use this airline) which is
not only worst, but far
more dangerous.

Re:Northworst?

[StormRider01]

Ah, you mean Awful Terrible Airlines?

Re:Northworst?

[timeOday]

I think airlines would be wise to avoid the word "west" in their names as the same thing happened to America Worst (West).

thats going to happen to any name.

What about Bart?

Let's see... Bart, Cart, Dart, Ee-art... Nope, can't see any problem with that!

Re:Northworst?

[DuctTape]

That said, I flew a Northworst/KLM combination flight to Athens and back. KLM is no comparison to Northworst - wonderful service; attractive, friendly stewardesses...

Well, I guess we know why you like KLM. Exactly how friendly were they?

DT

Re:Northworst?

[airbatica]

Just wondering were you got the impression that ATA(formally American Trans Air) was dangerous? They have an excellent safety record, and no crashes to date. Unless you're thinking of AirTran Airways, the airline formally known as Valuejet that crashed into a swamp?

Re:Northworst?

[JaredOfEuropa]

KLM is no comparison to Northworst - wonderful service; attractive, friendly stewardesses; better seats; and more.

You mean there's an airline worse than KLM? Wow... I've experienced none of the nice things you mention, and I've flown them many times.

I flew back and forth between Amsterdam and Tokyo a few times, and I thought business class on KLM was quite nice, lucky me. That was, until my British co-workers described what 'business class' means to Virgin airlines. Damn... that Branson guy sure knows what he is doing.

Re:Northworst?

[ari_j]

I didn't exercise my Mile-High Club privileges with any of them, if that's what you're hinting at. They were just cute Dutch girls who know how to smile about their work, rather than frown and bitch at you like Northworst's have done to me on flights in that same trip. The worst was when the flight from Amsterdam back to Minneapolis (on a NWA DC-10) didn't have immigration cards in English, only in Dutch and a few in French. The flight nonattendants didn't even try to help us fill them out, so I had to pull a Phenomenon stunt and learn enough Dutch in 3 hours to get myself back into the USA.

Not to mention that my Canadian-citizen travel companion was welcomed back through customs in Minneapolis with a hearty "Welcome home!" from a NWA employee who clearly didn't know Canada wasn't part of the USA.

All this being the case, there are worse airlines than NWA, for sure. Amtrak Air, Usually Transatlantic, and Fort Berthold Community College Airlines are a few that I can name. ;-D

Re:Northworst?

[DuctTape]

I didn't exercise my Mile-High Club privileges with any of them, if that's what you're hinting at.

Actually I was going for the humor angle with a touch of sexism thrown in.

Especially because for the past, say, twenty years or so, flight attendant attractiveness and demeanor has not appeared to be a career requirement. I also remember a Hanes hosiery commercial featuring a comely stewardess in essentially a figure skater's outfit with a leering businessman in the aisle checking her out, all with a, "Gentlemen prefer Hanes," jingle in the background. Don't see much of that these days. Unless I guess you're on the DC-10 and 747 routes, perhaps?

Actually I have had good luck on Northwest myself in the past three or so years. I just need to avoid American Airlines and Dallas, the source of 98% of my flying headaches.

DT

How about a database of privacy violaters?

[Genghis9]

Somewhat akin to that project at MIT (Government Information Awareness) detailing public figures, there should be one for public companies noting when, where, what.

Then it should be easy to boycott and avoid them.

Silly Northwest airlines!

[xankar]

If Jetblue jumped off a bridge, would you?

Re:Silly Northwest airlines!

[Maniakes]

If Jetblue jumped off a bridge, would you?

Not again, I won't.

Re:Silly Northwest airlines!

[(H)elix1]

If Jetblue jumped off a bridge, would you?

Do I still get 500 FF miles?

NASA...

[Arimus]

This surely begs the question if NASA have as much trouble with their mainstream programs for space missions how the heck can someone expect them to reliably mine data for terrorists... I think this is probably another of Bush's slip ups - he meant to say NSA when he dictated the request but ended up saying NASA instead :)

Re:NASA...

[Fulcrum of Evil]

if NASA have as much trouble with their mainstream programs for space missions how the heck can someone expect them to reliably mine data for terrorists

I don't know, how about the fact that they're going to Space? Ever been to Mars? Didn't think so. Ever seen a terrorist? Sure, they're all over the damn TV. We have some idea what a terrorist wants and how they operate. Compared to thaat, we know fuck-all about operating in space.

Not a good idea

[calmdude]

With airlines not doing so well these days, I don't think it's a very good idea for them to piss their customers off...

Of course, even if they lose 30% of their customers, the government will subsidize them for that 30%. Ahh...the wonders of...capitalism?

Story History

[Anonymous Coward]

from an aticle on the same topic at nytimes.com:

"We do not provide that type of information to anyone," Kurt Ebenhoch, a spokesman for Northwest, told The New York Times in a story published on Sept. 23.

Airlines in an impossible position

[Anonymous Coward]

To those who make jokes about "Martian Immigration" and the like, remember that it's the National Aeronautics and Space Administration. The agency has a large role in promoting aviation safety.

On a separate point, remember that an airline that is pressed by the Government to violate its passengers' privacy is likely in an impossible position: "turn over your passenger records, or we have the security people strip-search all your passengers at the gate and we start safety inspections on every one of your planes 5 minutes before departure. You'll never have a customer again."

Re:Airlines in an impossible position

[tommy_teardrop]

Funny that - it sounds exactly like my idea for making planes safe. The advantages of this idea are huge, and you would never need air marshals.

Basically, you have naked flights. OK - Maybe you could be given hospital gowns or something, but for all intents and purposes, the flights would be naked, with none of the passangers being allowed to carry their own clothes or belongings on the flights. Money saved on security could be spent on providing better entertainment, more magazines, hell maybe even a check-in check-out library service.

All the baggage could be flown on a separate flight, just to make things all the more confusing, so that you get no threat to passangers of bombs on the plane.

If you think it's an infringement of personal security, you should try being frisked three times on a journey and being made to repeatedly open up your bags. Having people leaf through your stuff. Shoes on - shoes off. I tell you, nakedness is only a short step away, and it would cure all security problems in seconds!

Government pressure?

[xyxy]

I don't mean to excure them, but I do think it's worth wondering aloud whether they got some not-so-subtle hints that the didn't need to mention this to the public.

Re:Government pressure?

[giminy]

Reminds me of how this used to work when I was a child.

"Yeah, sorry I lied, but [big] brother made me do it..."

The article makes it sound like this was all completely voluntary though (ie the government simply asked for the information, no subpoenas and no PATRIOT act handwaving at how you can't mention that records were taken).

While speculation at best, it might be good to look into whether or not these "hints" you suggest were dropped.

Re:Government pressure?

[dougmc]

I don't mean to excure them, but I do think it's worth wondering aloud whether they got some not-so-subtle hints that the didn't need to mention this to the public.

This is quite common, actually. Suppose you run an ISP, and the government is `interested' in one of your customer's web pages. They may subpoena you for information about this customer, and will probably also *prohibit* you from even telling the customer. Nothing subtle about it.

If you do mention it, it means a fine or jail time for you.

It's really unfair if you ask me ... but of course they don't usually ask me :)

Re:Government pressure?

[Thing 1]

What I would wonder is, exactly how many airlines are going to come out and say, "We didn't share data with any government organization."

My guess? Zero. They all did; the story's just trickling out slowly.

Air travel isn't what it cracked up to be

[Rosco P. Coltrane]

They were once my favorite airline.

With all the paranoid hoops the feds make travelers jump through to board an aircraft, I must admit my favorite airline is Amtrack these days, for shorter journeys.

Re:Air travel isn't what it cracked up to be

[kennykb]

Yeah, well, it's kinda hard to hijack a train and drive it into a building.

Re:Air travel isn't what it cracked up to be

[Rosco P. Coltrane]

I think you'll find that a runaway train derailling in a tight curve in a suburban area can be quite devastating. Not counting the hundreds of passengers casualties inside the train.

Anyway, with the feds controlling the hell out of aviation and watching major cities like never before, I reckon it's only a matter of time before terrorists realize it's far easier to crash trains in less high-profile areas. After all, it'll make quite as much noise in the news as 9/11, which is what terrorists are after. Then the US will turn into a real police state, because they'll realize they have to watch everything the same way they watch airports, and the terrorists will have won.

This country has a bleak future indeed :-(

Re:Air travel isn't what it cracked up to be

[kfg]

I think you'll find that driving into buildings, even ones filled with thousands of innocent people, is perfectly normal behaviour for a train.

They're called terminals.

For goodness' sake, go rent Silver Streak or something.

KFG

Re:Air travel isn't what it cracked up to be

[Tony Hoyle]

Not really, just force it to go full speed when it hits the end of the line... straight into a crowded station, probably in a major city.

Re:Air travel isn't what it cracked up to be

[Jeffreyn]

> I must admit my favorite airline is Amtra[]k > these days, for shorter journeys Ahh, and for longer journeys too. Turns "flyover country" into "the heartland of America."

Re:Air travel isn't what it cracked up to be

[kfg]

. . .my favorite airline is Amtrack these days, for shorter journeys.

Did you hear about the guy who was afraid of being hijacked so he took the train?

Terrorists flew a plane into it.

KFG

Re:Air travel isn't what it cracked up to be

[Fulcrum of Evil]

just force it to go full speed when it hits the end of the line

I'm pretty sure you can force a train to brake from the outside if it's going too fast (there may be systems like this already in place). The difference between trains and planes is that trains can stop in the middle.

Re:Air travel isn't what it cracked up to be

[silas_moeckel]

There is athe even better external system on light passanger rail called turn off the power ok we now have a train full of hostanges that arent going anywhere. No better or worse than any other building. Oh yea in general it's elevated with lots of windows so the sharp shooters can pick them off easier.

Re:Air travel isn't what it cracked up to be

[pipingguy]

With all the paranoid hoops the feds make travelers jump through to board an aircraft, I must admit my favorite airline is Amtrack these days, for shorter journeys.

Train travel is quite relaxing, actually. I figure the opposition to it when it comes to business travel options is based on appearances. In other words, we-are-so-successful-that-everything-has-to-be-don e-fast.

It's so much more sexier to announce that you flew in because of the urgency of the matter.

Nevermind that a relatively slow train ride provides extra time to contemplate the upcoming meeting/project without the hassles of air travel. Let's face it, if it's *critically important* that you physically appear in another city, you probably should be flying in a private jet. And your "perks" of travelling might be better converted into time off to reflect on things of importance.

Re:Air travel isn't what it cracked up to be

[kfg]

Touche, mon frere.

KFG

Re:Air travel isn't what it cracked up to be

[psykocrime]

Translation: this country occasionally becomes as authoritarian and police-controlled as the system the terrorists want to put in place.

At this rate, pretty soon the entire country will be an authoritarian police state, 24x7. Everytime we sacrifice a bit of civil liberties in the name of the "War on Terrorism" the terrorists win...

Re:Air travel isn't what it cracked up to be

[Colazar]

Let's face it, if it's *critically important* that you physically appear in another city, you probably should be flying in a private jet.

My grandfather was a pilot, (Air Force test pilot & private planes) and he always said that the first rule of flying was that if you absolutely had to be somewhere at a certain time, don't fly. A pilot has to be willing and able to scrub a flight if everything doesn't look exactly like it should. If you don't have that mindset, it will eventually catch up with you.

So that said, if it's *critically important* that you be somewhere in person, what you need to do, whatever mode you take, is to leave a day (or more) early.

Re:Air travel isn't what it cracked up to be

[pipingguy]

My grandfather was a pilot, (Air Force test pilot & private planes) and he always said that the first rule of flying was that if you absolutely had to be somewhere at a certain time, don't fly. A pilot has to be willing and able to scrub a flight if everything doesn't look exactly like it should. If you don't have that mindset, it will eventually catch up with you.

Bingo. Air travel is associated with importance, when it shouldn't be. If you're important, you can dictate mode of travel. If not, you are just a courrier that thinks it's cool that the company sent you on a plane.

They probably all did this...

[stefanlasiewski]

I'd bet that nearly all of the of the major Airlines have done this. Northwest and JetBlue just happened to get caught...

Article Text (site slowing)

[Anonymous Coward]

Northwest Airlines provided information on millions of passengers for a secret U.S. government air-security project soon after the Sept. 11, 2001, terrorist attacks, raising more concerns among some privacy advocates about the airlines' use of confidential customer data.

advertisement
The nation's fourth-largest airline asserted in September that it "did not provide that type of information to anyone." But Northwest acknowledged Friday that by that time, it had already turned over three months of reservation data to the National Aeronautics and Space Administration's Ames Research Center. Northwest is the second carrier to have been identified as secretly passing travelers' records to the government.

The airline industry has said publicly that it would not cooperate in developing a government passenger-screening program because of concerns that the project would infringe on customer privacy. But the participation of two airlines in separate programs demonstrates the industry's clandestine role in government security initiatives.

In September, JetBlue Airways said that it turned over passenger records to a defense contractor and apologized to its customers for doing so.

Northwest said in a statement Friday that it participated in the NASA program after the terrorist attacks to assist the government's search for technology to improve aviation security. "Northwest Airlines had a duty and an obligation to cooperate with the federal government for national security reasons," the airline said.

Records included personal information
The carrier declined to say how many passengers' records were shared with NASA from the period offered, October to December 2001. More than 10.9 million passengers traveled on Northwest flights during that time, according to the Transportation Department.

NASA documents show that NASA kept Northwest's passenger name records until September 2003. Such records typically include credit card numbers, addresses and telephone numbers.

NASA said it used the information to investigate whether "data mining" of the records could improve assessments of threats posed by passengers, according to the agency's written responses to questions. At the time the agency also was exploring other possible projects aimed at improving air security, it said. NASA said no other airlines were involved in the project and that it did not share its data with other parties. The agency said it did not pay for the data.

Northwest said it did not inform any passengers that it shared data with NASA. It also said it did not believe that the data sharing violated its privacy policy.

"Our privacy policy commits Northwest not to sell passenger information to third parties for marketing purposes," the company said in its statement Friday . "This situation was entirely different, as we were providing the data to a government agency to conduct scientific research related to aviation security and we were confident that the privacy of passenger information would be maintained."

The carrier tells passengers visiting its Web site that "when you reserve or purchase travel services through Northwest Airlines nwa.com Reservations, we provide only the relevant information required by the car rental agency, hotel, or other involved third party to ensure the successful fulfillment of your travel arrangements."

Earlier admission
The disclosure of Northwest's participation in the NASA project comes just four months after JetBlue's admission of involvement in a secret security project conducted by the Defense Department. JetBlue conceded that it violated its privacy policy when it turned over records on 1.1 million passengers. JetBlue is being sued by passengers in class-action lawsuits.

The Northwest and NASA documents were released in response to a Freedom of Information Act request filed by the Electronic Privacy Information Center, a nonprofit organization that advocates privacy rights and open government. The organization, which provided the docum

Re:Article Text (site slowing)

[adyssoft]

I think this article is quite pertinent to the post. Most of the comments regarding this post strike me as completely not understanding what is really going on and they seem way to alarmist to me. While I am a big fan of privacy, I do not think that the current situation warrants lawsuits against NASA or Northwest.

Let me try to clarify what is going on here a little bit. First let me say that I am a Ph.D. student working on "data mining" and that this is the prespective from which I am going to analize this matter. Here are some potential issues that I want to clarify:

Q: What is going on here? A: A feasibility study was done in order to asses the potential of "data mining" for terrorist activity detection.

Q: What does NASA has to do with it? A: NASA has a good deal of very smart people working on "data mining" for a couple of decades already. This is because "data mining" is about detecting patterns in data and NASA was interested in detecting patterns in a lot of space related programs. SETI is one popular instance of this [where the data consists of radio signals and the mining consists in trying to find patterns that would indicate extraterestrial intelligence]. So in conclusion the reason NASA was involved is because some of their people have good expertise in data mining. [Probably better than NSA]

Why did Northwest released private data? A: Short answer: Because there ain't such a thing as "data mining" without data. And in the same way you cannot learn how to drill for oil on mars because there is no oil there, the data had to be "real data" in order for the asessment to be valid.

What if the assesment would have been favorable? Would this thing mean that the goverment would pass a law in order to gain access to private data from Airline companies? A: Probably not. [But given some precedents I would not bet my life on it so we have to keep on watching it]. The reason is that there is a lot of work going on privacy preserving "data mining" where a party can expose a database to another party in such way that limits the query capabilities or perturbs them, such that the identity of the persons in the databse is not revealed but data mining is yet possible.

surprise, surprise...

[tuxette]

Privacy policies in the US aren't worth the bandwidth they waste. And they will continue to be worthless unless they're backed by strong national (not just state) privacy legislation similar to the Norwegian Personal Data Act or the EU Personal Data Directive.

That way, people don't have to be worried about "loopholes" in privacy policies such as the one indicated in a NYT article on the same subject:

The company said in a statement: "Our privacy policy commits Northwest not to sell passenger information to third parties for marketing purposes. This situation was entirely different, as we were providing the data to a government agency to conduct specific scientific research related to aviation security and we were confident that the privacy of passenger information would be maintained."

According to for example Norwegian law, this transfer would be unlawful unless the data subjects consented to the transfer.

Re:surprise, surprise...

[pigpilot]

In the EU we have learned that when the USA throws it weight around our EU laws count for very little.

The laws that were meant to protect the data of EU citizens has been ignored when it came to demands from the USA that personal data of EU air travellers be passed to the USA without the previous safeguards.

The Register has more details on how weak the EUs stand has been.

Re:surprise, surprise...

[SurgeonGeneral]

Privacy policies in the US aren't worth the bandwidth they waste. And they will continue to be worthless unless they're backed by strong national (not just state) privacy legislation similar to the Norwegian Personal Data Act or the EU Personal Data Directive.

Interesting comment, but its very unlikely to be implemented on a wide scale in America. The use of Privacy policies and playing off of the customer's good faith, trust or lack of having read the policy is common between government and corporations alike. This Northwest airline case is a perfect example. America requires poor privacy protection.

1) The Economy. Its an information economy and people make lots of money just by buying and selling data on you. A lot of big businesses trade data back and forth, especially between subsidiareies. CEOs have a significant investment in their lax policies, and they enourage their friends in politics not to disturb it.

2) War on terrorism. Bush can shoot down any protection of privacy with those three words.

3) War on drugs. While its not as prominent anymore since there is a new war to funnel money into, the war on drugs requires the passing and sharing of your private data. So if people start going against the war on terrorism, government can just revert back to the old stance.

Re:surprise, surprise...

[zoney_ie]

Yes, yes, yes, all very well to say the E.U. should stand up and fight (despite the fact we don't have a Union army yet and several States are neutral).

Our leaders have been quite right to shoot down opinions of the E.U. rising up to oppose the U.S., other than economically. Europe and America need to be allies, not enemies. The latter is unthinkable as regards consequence for the world.

If the U.S. does not wise up soon though, the war-mongerers both sides of the water will get their way, the E.U. will build up a Common Defence and set up as an opposing pole.

class action

[msg1825]

... lawsuit should be in order

double wrong

[Anonymous Coward]

not only did they really mean nasa, but the beagle ii is an ESA probe. that's the eurpoean space agency.

not that nasa wouldn't like the beagle to be found, but they're not the party responsible for it.

Somebody needs to get their story straight

[Quixote]

From the article:
.... news media quoted Northwest officials responding to the JetBlue incident. "We do not provide that type of information to anyone," Northwest spokesman Kurt Ebenhoch was quoted as saying in the New York Times on Sept. 23.

An article in the following day's St. Paul (Minn.) Pioneer Press said: "Northwest Airlines will not share customer information, as JetBlue Airways has, Northwest chief executive Richard Anderson said Tuesday in brief remarks after addressing the St. Paul Rotary."

Somebody should ask Dick Anderson, what exactly did he mean by his statement? If that is not a bald-faced lie, then I don't know what is.

I hope the shareholders hold this guy accountable.

As the former owner of a Nortwest Frequent Flyer card (which I just cut up on reading this story), I'd just like to say "sayonara!" to Northwest. It was not the sharing of the data that was bad; it was lying about it and the "cross my heart, swear to God we don't do that" that pissed me off.

I can understand the need for exploring new security options. How hard would it have been to anonymize the data? Just run it through a one-way hash function, and you can provide the data without invading anyone's privacy.

This ineptitude and lying really irritates me.

Re:Somebody needs to get their story straight

[geekoid]

"Somebody should ask Dick Anderson, what exactly did he mean by his statement? I"

why not you?

Re:Somebody needs to get their story straight

[Hits_B]

Oh no!!!! A corporation LYING to the public as well as its shareholders!?!?!? Say it isn't so!

Re:Gathering Information (club cards)

[westyvw]

Ah they are ok. At least they use a phone number. I dont buy anything but beer from the grocery store that uses a card anyway (I go to a food coop for that). But I enter in a phone number. Gee my deceased grandmother seems to drink alot of beer according to thier records!

Re:NASA

[Scrameustache]

Why would NASA want information on airlines' passengers? I can understand the Government, in general would, but NASA? NASA does space exploration, not national defense. What gives?

They "misplaced" one of their super intelligent space monkeys and are covertly trying to find where he fled to without alerting the unsespecting authorities.

Recent reports of fluctuating banana prices only spurred their resolve. Bonkers MUST be found before he mates!

Some people...

[sulli]

just know how to spy.

With codesharing it's hard to avoid the bad ones

[wike]

I had a flight last week on Delta (not my favorite airline either) but when I showed up to the airport and had problems with Delta's (we don't want to talk to you so we make you deal with a machine) self-check in kiosk I found out that I was actually flying on Northwest. Huh? Apparantly even though I booked Delta, they codeshare with Northwest. I wonder if my passenger information is now in Northwest's database.

Not the NASA!

[Dark Lord Seth]

Really, the FBI can come over and arrest me, the NSA can deploy a task force in the North Sea standing by to obliberate most of Northern-Europe and the CIA can drug my beer but not the NASA! Dear Eris, they might decide to drop that Saturn V on my house, do you have any idea how much that blasted things weighs?

Don't worry; it's all part of the plan...

[Flakbait]

NASA's got this one covered. I must say, their plan is totally brilliant

(disclaimer: satire)

That explains it

[Anonymous Coward]

I was wondering why the US Air lady asked me if I thought the moon landings had been faked when I checked in. I hope I answered correctly.

"Funny"

[Pave Low]

What does this comment have to do with Bush or Rumsfeld or the connection a police state?

A government agency asked a company to provide passenger data, and they seemingly lied about it. That's about it. The fault is with Northwest for not being more forthcoming about it.

The desperation to insert 'Bush/Rumsfeld/Ashcroft is evil' in every item shows how much the Left is falling further into irrelevancy.

Re:"Funny"

[Alien Being]

Right. He should have said Poindexter.

Re:"Funny"

[schtum]

A government agency is keeping tabs on your personal purchases and travel information with the intent of mining the data for "security" purposes. Yeah, you're right, no police state there.

The desperation to deny the blatant fascist tendencies of the current administration shows how much the Right is falling further into irrelevancy [sic].

If you had not denied, but defended the creation of a police state as a necessary evil in a time of unprecedented terrorist activity, I would have at least respected your position.

Re:"Funny"

[pbox]

The desperation to insert 'Bush/Rumsfeld/Ashcroft is evil' in every item shows how much the Left is falling further into irrelevancy.

Or you hope so, you lil' fascist ;-)

Re:"Funny"

[Pave Low]

This is data mining air travel information we're talking about here, not lingerie purchases. Airline travel hasn't been private and unrestricted in 20 years and probably will never be so again.

If you can't figure out why that is so, then you really haven't been paying attention. Airline travel is not a right, and you don't have to fly if you don't like the fact that people are working to make sure some guy isn't trying to hijack passengers or bomb the plane you're on.

I'd really like to see you make a scene at the metal detector and baggage scanner and scream about 'police state!' there and see how far that gets you.

Re:"Funny"

[bjarvis354]

What is not wanted here are people who think that if people don't agree with them there must be "a party line". People can use their mod points however they want to.

If you don't like it go back to getting you news spoonfed to you by Rupert Murdoch.

Re:"Funny"

[schtum]

See? By defending the action instead of denying it, you've earned some respect (by way of karma) and come off as a rational human being.

The fact is, I'm not a knee-jerk privacy advocate, but I do believe we should keep an eye on our government to make sure they don't abuse this sort of power. If it's being used to prevent jet-liners from blowing up my place of work, great. If it's being used to intimidate political dissenters, not so great.

I wouldn't trust any administration, Democratic or Republican not to cross that line, but Republicans have certainly shown themselves to be much more eager to do so in the past.

Re:"Funny"

[dave420]

"Pave Low". Sheesh. You can spot right-wing nutcases a mile off.

Instead of posting messages about supposed left-wing undermining of the media, why not fight the "pinko commie marxists" by portraying Republicans in a good manner. Naming yourself after a bomb and slagging off people criticising your standpoint is just plain childish. You sound like someone from the mid-west who sports a buzzcut, and salutes the flag in his lounge every morning before going to work.

You're not helping your cause.

Re:"Funny"

[Pave Low]

A Pave Low is not a bomb, you dumb little shit.

You shouldn't spout off about being childish when you don't even have your facts straight.

I hate this world

[Anonymous Coward]

More and more people lie more and more.
It is becoming accepted as 'not wrong'.
So who to trust? Nobody?

It wasn't NASA!

[Anonymous Coward]

It was MLB. Now they know my squalor index.

I've got something to hide.

[MichaelGCD]

I hide the fact that I have nothing to hide. Never show your cards.

Re:Gathering Information (club cards)

[AceCaseOR]

I use the cards, but generally if I buy something with the card, I'll want them to keep stocking that item. These stores generally consider the number of holders of their cards to represent a percentage of people in a geographical area who don't have the cards.

So, if I have a card, and if I can use it when buying, say, some action figures for my collection, than I will, because then they'll continue stocking the figures. It's not like I'm buying porn and using the card on the purchase.

95% of the people who have these cards aren't using them when buying anything like pr0n or condoms or anything where they would be embarrassed if their mother knew they were buying them. Besides, for items like that, you generally can't get a discount on them using the cards.

Re:For a good reason

[mojoNYC]

If you've got nothing to hide, it shouldn't matter.

yeah, right, just like the PATRIOT Act should only scare you if you're a terrorist...

Re:For a good reason

[geekoid]

everybody has something to hide.

If you don't agree, please post all you credit card numbers, with expiration dates, checking account number, with routing information, all logon and passwords to any thing you have. If you have nay children, please post there names birthdate, secret words, and schedules. Please post you employeer, employee number, annual salary/income.

Also please put a web cam in every room of your house so we can watch whatever you do. Be sure to post your drivers liscense information, all ID numbers.

So, you still got nothing to hide?

They lied. Someday people are going to get Fried.

[leoaugust]

Pure, and simple lying.

• An article in the following day's St. Paul (Minn.) Pioneer Press said: "Northwest Airlines will not share customer information, as JetBlue Airways has, Northwest chief executive Richard Anderson said Tuesday in brief remarks after addressing the St. Paul Rotary."
• Northwest officials responding to the JetBlue incident. "We do not provide that type of information to anyone," Northwest spokesman Kurt Ebenhoch was quoted as saying in the New York Times on Sept. 23.

They lied.

Their sorry excuse ?

"Northwest Airlines had a duty and an obligation to cooperate with the federal government for national security reasons," the airline said.

It sounds just like what Adobe was saying when they got busted for the Currency Detection Algorithms that they had added as (semi) spyware. And then of course we find out that many other Graphics Programs Vendors had done the same ...

Their sorry excuse ?

Adobe had a duty and an obligation to cooperate with the federal government for national security reasons.

Really makes you wonder how many of these Corporations are already in-bed-with-the-feds ...

Is it already 1985 ?

Northwest Gives Personal Data to NASA

[shubert1966]

1) Please do not confuse my patriotism with:
a. Support for Bush/Cheny/et.al.
b. Nationalism
Thank you

I have to point out that we don't know the protocol for mining this data. They may analyze it in stages - trying to preserve anonymity as best they can. I do however, of course, realize that they have taken an UNPRECIDENTED step in all of this, and I doubt JetBlue or Northwest are the only carriers, or services for that matter, that have turned over records. Recent moves by content piracy lawyers to acquire dowloader data should not be confused with trying to protect our citizens - they are vastly different symptoms of us not being able to control everything. That not being able to control everything is a fact, it is also, IMHO, a sign that we are missing opportunities to make this planet safe and enjoyable for everyone.

Yet look at the underlying fundamentals, which these gery-op type actions seem to overlook:
Anyone, domestic or foreign, can readily acquire the tools to kill thousands or more people. They simply can. The Spirit rover on Mars is a great example of what technology can do from a long, long way away. We are incapable of preventing Free Will through legislation - only our actions, domestic and foreign can address this. Bombs and secret tribunals cannot.

My conclusion is that we are responding in kneejerk fashion to what is really a social disease. Instead of defending and offending at the same time, retaliating and escalating, we should do the 'right thing'. Invest in the world so that everyone has a sustainable future, beyond mud huts and slavery. I think then, the only problem we'd have with the technological genii is the random, actually crazy serial killer. The fundametalist killers would be satiated, and re-absorbed into their communities. Living happily everafter (tra la la).

Damed if I know what I would do...

[zulux]

I have to admit - that right after 9/11, if NASA asked for a passenger list - I'd would have probably given it to them as fast as possible.

The trouble comes, though, is when a passanger asked me: "Did you share my data with anybody?"

I *would* have told them "Yeah... NASA got a copy. Got a problem with that?"

Airplanse travel over provate and public property - there should be no expecation of pricacy. When a 747 flies over my house - I expect the governemnt to protect me by making sure that some fundelementalist asshole isen't about to crash the plaine into my house.

So what if NASA got a copy of the files ? - it's the hining that's desturbing.

Re:Damed if I know what I would do...

[rickbender1940]

So if a plane flies over your house you should be given the credit-card info of the passengers inside?

Great, maybe I can set up a hut in the flight path at JFK. Woo hoo, who needs to work!

Re:Damed if I know what I would do...

[John Seminal]

The problem is they lied about it. And I would ask you to recosnider just giving away personal information because of national security. Will this really improve your security?

Maybe it is just my tinfoil hat, but I see a slippery slope with government taking away more and more freedom, while collecting more and more information on its citizens. Is that reason for alarm?

If you switch to US Airways...

[mellonhead]

...be sure to wake up prior to initial approach:

http://www.sptimes.com/2004/01/17/Tampabay/Snippy_ flight_attenda.shtml

Re:If you switch to US Airways...

[gsperling]

Thank you for sharing that with the crowd. (I didn't even see it on FARK!) I feel that flight attendant should be suspended, especially if he feels that it's 'his plane.'

Hopefully some discipline will ensue. I know I certainly won't fly that airline!

Re:If you switch to US Airways...

[MagFox]

Oh. My. God. An either rude or stressed out person poked another easily ruffled person. What is the world coming to.

Re:Gathering Information (club cards)

[geekoid]

Actualy, the cards are used to hide the fact that they are raising the price of goods.

Pre-card, an item would cost a buck.

Now, that same item costs 3 bucks without a card, and 1.75 with a card. They know there data is crap. Hell, half the time I see people forget their cards, and the cashier just uses one that they have lying around.

it's reasonable to expect the price of goods to climb, but the amount they jump when a store uses a card is exploitive.

saadly, a lot of people don't realize this, and stop going to stores that kept there prices low, but didn't have a card system. So those stores now have a card system, and increased there cost to pay for the system.

Good news is, now that everybody gotone, market forces(HA get it MARKET forces!) should stop the rapid price increase.

Nothing to worry about...

[banzai75]

They're just checking for illegal aliens.

Correction

[CracktownHts]

Ok, I guess relying on memory from five years ago isn't so good... I couldn't find anything on google related to NWA actually paying for construction costs, but in any case they helped design it and it wouldn't be much of a stretch to say that the terminal wouldn't be there if not for NWA.

It's the National AERONAUTICS and Space Admin.

[Ungrounded Lightning]

I was sure the submitter meant the NSA but looking at the story it really was NASA.

Are they going to be sharing this info with the Martian Immigration Service?

NASA is the National AERONAUTICS and Space Admin. The space program gets all the press. But they do a LOT of work on all aspects of commercial air flight.

And while their work on cutting edge aircraft design (civilian, military, and research platforms) gets most of the press on their airflight side, they're involved in a lot of other stuff: Flight simulation, air traffic control, baggage searching devices...

And, as you can now see, stealth people-tracking databases for the "war on terror".

I'd suggest you contact your legislator if you object. But that might get me a heavy fine. (Follow this link {cloned from my current signature} to see what I'm talking about.)

legality

[broxys]

isnt this ..... illegal?? i guess not.. but shouldn't it be??? i would say yes.

Re:legality

[ScarletEmerald]

isnt this ..... illegal??

False advertising perhaps?

Favourite airline?

[rsidd]

Offtopic, but I'm amazed that it was ever anyone's "favourite airline". KLM and Northwest have codeshare flights from India to Amsterdam/the US, and it's common consensus that KLM is one of the best and NW is one of the worst. Most people I know who need to travel on KLM/NW check carefully first who's operating that flight, and if it's NW, choose some other airline or some other date.

Though to be fair, all US airlines suck compared to their European or Asian counterparts. I've travelled on several.

NASA? From an episode of the Honeymooners...

[lwagner]

"To the Moon, al-Hassan! To the Moon!"

Use those miles for a Continental flight!

[green pizza]

As the former owner of a Nortwest Frequent Flyer card (which I just cut up on reading this story)

?? You don't have to use NWA WorldPerks miles for just NWA flights. You can cash them in on Continental, Delta, and KLM flights as well.

Re:Use those miles for a Continental flight!

[orkysoft]

And that's the price one pays for such rash actions.

wha????

[AsimovBesterClarke]

> They were once my favorite airline

Let me guess, you don't live near Detroit nor the Twin Cities.

Re:wha????

[green pizza]

They were once my favorite airline

Let me guess, you don't live near Detroit nor the Twin Cities.

Welcome to US airlines. They all suck. If you live in the Dallas/FtWorth area you curse American and hope that Continental is better. If you live in the Houston area, you curse Continental and hope that American is better... wash, rinse, repeat...

Re:wha????

[aderusha]

i was going to say the same thing about detroit. their hub at DTW is now like a hundred times better since they rebuilt it.... damn that airport used to suck eggs... nothing like siting on the tarmac for hours on end for no reason at all.

Re:For a good reason

[jeffkjo1]

And the government, and the people within it, have never misused their powers or information that has been provided to them.

Nixon jumps out at me, for some reason here.

Continental and Delta [suck] too...

[green pizza]

Northwest, Continental, Delta, and KLM codeshare their flights. In fact, the four are very tightly knit... most area once served by both Northwest and Continental are now just served by one of the two, especially after the 1998 "kind of a merger".

At any rate, you need to carefully read the segment data when you book your flights online... this includes the plane type, operator ("Delta Flight 555 Operated by Northwest Flight 333"), and other little tidbits.

In my personal experience, I rank Delta and Northwest in the middle of the pack... Continental and American a bit higher. JetBlue and Frontier have better in-flight entertainment, but has a higher ratio of "scary seatmates". Southwest is just plain scary. But really, it's all cattle class (or cattle class plus) unless you fly Virgin Upper Class. Give it up for roadtrips!

Re:Continental and Delta [suck] too...

[TClevenger]

Depends on your priorities. I fly Southwest because they haven't killed anyone yet.

Re:Continental and Delta [suck] too...

[wike]

I've never flown Continental but I definately agree and rank American higher than Delta mainly for the "more room in coach" feature. I flew to Tokyo two years ago on American and had as much room in a regular seat as I usually do in a Delta exit-row seat. I got a business class upgrade on the return and that was SWEET.

Since I submitted this first -

[teamhasnoi]

and I live in Minnesota, I had done quite a bit of reading on this. Apart from Northwest justifying it by saying, "We don't sell information to marketers - but this wasn't for marketing..", I find the most asnine thing to be NASA wanting to 'give the information back'.

Now, this info is on 5 CDs. How can *anyone* believe that it stayed on those CDs, and din't make the rounds from FBI to NSA to CIA to DHS to whatever other 3 letter acroymn that is supposed to 'protect us'?

That information is everywhere you don't want it to be - and you won't know what they're doing with it until it bites you in the ass.

I guarantee that this will be abused - everything else has, why would this be anything different.

I wonder if good ol' boy George would be allowed to fly if the CAPPS2 system had access to his military AWOL status, his DUI, his credit scores, and his drug abuse.

Oh, wait. Invasive and ineffective programs like these are only for the 'commoners'.

Bush AWOL !

[Anonymous Coward]

I wonder if good ol' boy George would be allowed to fly if the CAPPS2 system had access to his military AWOL status, his DUI, his credit scores, and his drug abuse.

There is no evidence of AWOL. This tale was made up by the fringe bush-haters, and all traces back to a rumor from someone's wife. If he had gone AWOL, it would be in military records. DUI? Fox News exposed this, the fact of it is old history. Drug abuse? No one can find any evidence of this: the only reason the "Drug abuse" story about Bush is there is because someone made it up because it sounds bad, and people that don't like Bush repeated it..... because it sounds bad.

The Bush AWOL story and drug story, is, like the story of Clinton executing dozens of opponents secretly in "arkancides", is just fiction made up by fringe haters.

Fun with mergers and "alliances"

[green pizza]

I've never had much trouble with Northwest in the Minneapolis area, no worse than any of the other major carriers (Continental, Delta, American). What does irritate me is how codesharing and alliances has left many cities with far fewer flight choices. Many areas once served by both Continental and Northwest are now served only by one of the two. Cities that once had multiple 737-sized flights by American and TWA are now stuck with a couple 757-sized American flights following that buyout. And what's up with United? I used to see United flights all over the place, and now I'm lucky if I see a "United Express" Embrier commuter.

No, but if Continental did...

[green pizza]

If Jetblue jumped off a bridge, would you?
No, but if Continental did...
[insert rant about NWA/Continental "almost a merger" alliance...]

Re:Who the fuck cares really?

[CrankyFool]

If you're going to be snippy about it, maybe you should read the article.
---
NASA documents show that NASA kept Northwest's passenger name records until September 2003.

Such records typically include credit card numbers, addresses and telephone numbers. NASA said it used the information to investigate whether "data mining" of the records could improve assessments of threats posed by passengers, according to the agency's written responses to questions.
---

Notice the part where they mention credit card umbers, addresses, and telephone numbers.

Notice, also, the implicit part in the way we *should* be dealing with rights management where the question is not whether or not I have a good enough reason to hide something, but whether or not the government has a good enough reason to requisition it. In other words, I'm not James Bond, but I don't fucking care -- because I'm not ObL either, and the government doesn't get to just willy-nilly grab my flight information. More importantly, Northwest doesn't get to willy-nilly hand them over because "it seemed like a good idea at the time."

Re:wrong

[jmerelo]

right, but it was kind of weird to talk about the "feds" when referring to the NASA. Are they?

Re:legislation?

[symbolic]

I have a very simple rule for people concerned about privacy (and I am): PUT YOUR MONEY WHERE YOUR MOUTH IS. Sacrifice a little comfort and convenience for once, in order to uphold a principle that you claim is important to you (I do).

PIPEDA

[temojen]

In Canada, the airlines would be liable for damages from every customer for this (assuming there was no regulation requiring them to share the information).

IANAL

PIPEDA

Codesharing sucks!

[kps]

I booked my trip through NASA and ended up in a Soyuz capsule instead.

Oh well, at least I didn't get stuck on Northwest.

Re:For a good reason

[Dark Lord Seth]

You know, when someone does this is always slightly ticks me off. I don't have anything to hide either, yet you won't be getting my personal information because it is... Yes, PERSONAL. It's something that YOU as an outsider got nothing to to with. If you want it, you can go to some nasty place with brimstone and fire. My personal information simply isn't any of your concern.

Then again, by law I am supposed to carry around and ID at all times. Fair enough. So a police officer walks up to me and asks me for my ID. Then I will show it to him/her because, as a police officer enforcing the law in the country where I currently reside, I am obliged to do so. I might not be happy about it but hey, it's the law and I don't have anything to hide.

That isn't called "having something to hide", it's called "having something that isn't any of your damned concern". Go bother yourself with something that IS your concern.

Re:You are a fool and a liar

[CrazyDuke]

"Nearly a year later, we haven't found any weapons of mass destruction, except for some rusty shells containing blister agents which didn't pose a serious threat to the US."

Could you please point me to where they found out it was true? Last I heard, it was _suspected_ they had blister agents. Big Difference.

Even so...after over 10 years, wouldn't the stuff be equivilent to a bad fart by now?

Keep in mind that...

[crazyhorse44]

when one government agency gets something like this... there is no way to tell who else they share it with. Since they are not bound by any privacy concerns or any tort liability on the matter... they can do what they want with the information. This came to mind when someone posted that it SURELY must have been the NSA who got these records AND NOT NASA. Well... who says that NASA didn't also share this data with the NSA and whoever else wanted to play with it? HOPEFULLY a new administration will put their foot down on these shenanegans.

Re:Keep in mind that...

[Detritus]

The government is not that coordinated and efficient. An NSA officer is not going to wander in to a NASA office and ask for a copy of the CDs. Bureaucratic protocol must be followed. If it happened, the Director of the NSA would send a written memo to the NASA Administrator asking for a copy of the CDs. Many bureaucrats and lawyers in both agencies would be involved.

This won't work

[dickiedoodles]

Surely in order for this to work NASA would have to know who on the list was a terrorist and who wasn't. It's like giving somebody a list of people's age and weight (and no other information) and asking them to figure out a system for knowing if they voted republican or not, it's just impossible to do without knowing voting trends for those weights and ages.

The only way I could see this being used is to look at who gets drunk and causes problems on flights (I assume that airlines keep information on this) and place extra staff on flights with a high number of these types of people and while that's not a bad idea it's hardly "a matter of national security"

Re:CIA has nothing to do with Al Quada

[Blue Stone]

"The CIA actually had nothing to do with Al Quada and bin Laden."

Osama Bin Laden: How the U.S. Helped Midwife a Terrorist.

But it really isn't lying...

[Newer Guy]

It's "mispeaking yourself" Understand the difference?

Re:LESSEN the privacy at the top!

[CrazyDuke]

Jesus, America! Are you sleeping???

Yes.

Re:Bush AWOL ! OT like a mo-fo.

[teamhasnoi]

AWOL

DUI

Cocaine (from a right wing puplication!)

I'm sure you can find more sources if you look, I just went as fast I could, and tried to pick sources that are generally trusted to be accurate.

There will always be those who say 'if the records aren't there, how can it be true?', but when you are in charge of who keeps them, where they are kept, and who has access to them, you can certainly manipulate them.

Does the head IT guy at a company ever get busted for looking at porn?...

NW Sucks Anyway...

[Mister Transistor]

Yet one more reason I will never fly on their airline. Those "Body Nazis" were the first to ban smoking on international flights. That's when they lost me as a customer, permanently.

These clowns aren't even sorry!

[Newer Guy]

Northwest said it did not inform any passengers that it shared data with NASA. It also said it did not believe that the data sharing violated its privacy policy. "Our privacy policy commits Northwest not to sell passenger information to third parties for marketing purposes," the company said in its statement Friday . "This situation was entirely different, as we were providing the data to a government agency to conduct scientific research related to aviation security and we were confident that the privacy of passenger information would be maintained." The carrier tells passengers visiting its Web site that "when you reserve or purchase travel services through Northwest Airlines nwa.com Reservations, we provide only the relevant information required by the car rental agency, hotel, or other involved third party to ensure the successful fulfillment of your travel arrangements."

Not only are these guys absolute liars, but they don't have a shread of remorse FOR LYING!

Our Govt. these days reeks of Hitlerism where people try to justify things by claiming they were "only following orders". But then again, when you have a lying sack of shit for a President, you should expect HIS diharrea to flow downhill!

Re:Amerika is heading away from fascism

[Newer Guy]

"while Bush instead believes in equal rights"

Yeah...equal rights for the TOP TWO PERCENT of wealthy people

The rest of you can go live under an underpass...

Well....

[Newer Guy]

Well, you know they had to do something with the people they reassigned because their pure incompetance caused the Columbia tragedy. Instead, they put them on this new project!

That could make a good haiku.

[cynical kane]

More people lie more And then it becomes 'not wrong' So who do we trust?

Re:Body Nazis?

[Mister Transistor]

First, this was before there were any U.S. restrictions on smoking other than at takeoff/landing time, so it was before all this
"politcally correct" bullshit was in place.

Second, If you'll recall, the planes had their designated smoking areas (called "the smoking section" back then) in the rear of the plane. There is a cabin airflow system in the plane, and I'll guarantee you it works from front to back, not the other way around. Those sitting in front had no problems with the smoke from the rear.

If things had progressed differently, the airlines probably would have been able to make a simple partition to ensure no smoke "leakage" occurred, but it was much cheaper and easier just to ban it entirely. Once again many had to suffer due to a vocal few. By now things have changed and the minority is now the majority, so it goes.

Re:legislation?

[timeOday]

I have a very simple rule for people concerned about privacy (and I am): PUT YOUR MONEY WHERE YOUR MOUTH IS. Sacrifice a little comfort and convenience for once, in order to uphold a principle that you claim is important to you (I do).

Yes, that's right, let the free market solve the problem. Shop around and do business only with companies that promise to honor the privacy of your information, like Northwest Airlines.

Re:wrong

[LearnToSpell]

Of course they are. Where do you think they get their money?

Re:For a good reason

[tuxette]

Well, my travel habits are personal and the airline tickets I buy are between me and the airline only. My shopping habits are personal, what I read is personal, who I associate with is personal, etc. For others, including and especially the government, this information is none of your fucking business.

If the government/police want information on my habits, they better damn well be using it in connection with a real investigation on me, with specific charges. And this information had better damn well benn obtained via court order.

Too bad the FTC can't get involved

[bezuwork's friend]

To bad the FTC can't get involved. They sued Toysmart.com to prevent Toysmart from disclosing consumer information against their privacy statement. This was settled by a consent decree. From the consent decree:

The Complaint alleges that Toysmart engaged in deceptive acts or practices in violation of Section 5 of the Federal Trade Commission Act ("FTC Act"), 15 U.S.C. 45(a), by disclosing, selling or offering for sale personal customer information, contrary to the terms of its privacy policy that personal information would never be disclosed to third parties. [link added]

Note that under 15 USC 45(a), common carriers and air carriers are exempt. Even if they weren't, I'm sure the reality is that the FTC wouldn't pursue it.

Feds are Immune to Civil Claims

[Iplaw-dc]

One way the Federal Government could violate a nondisclosure agreement between Northwest and passengers is based on civil immunity, which the Federal governement is granted in claims arising out of breach of contract. Under Constitutional law,applying a strict scrutiny approach (because a fundamental right of privacy is at issue) to the Feds acquisition of personal data from Northwest, the Feds could argue that there were no less necessary means for monitoring security during times of national emergency. Was there a statute passed that allowed them to get the info from Northwest? After I write that, I beleive there may be alternative means and that is Northwest disclosing to the passengers that any information used in reserving a flight is subject to the disclosure to Federal Authorities- maybe this language can be used in the future!!!!

NASA Funding Increases

[Anonymous Coward]

Ah, perhaps I now understand the purpose of Bush's proposed increase in funding for NASA.

Re:So wrong?

[stefanlasiewski]

One that is true, however "An Evil Leader is typically not elected by a majority of the voters", happens to apply also to Bill Clinton, who did NOT get a majority in either of his elections.

Actually, he did, unless by "NOT get a majority" you really meant "NOT NOT get a majority".

Clinton won the majority during BOTH the 1992 and 1996 elections, in both the popular election and electoral colleges. Let's review:

During the 1992 election, Clinton received 43% of the popular votes, and 68.8% of the electoral college. Bush lost because he received less votes then Clinton, 37.45% of the total, and 31.2% electoral college. Clinton won the majority.

In 1996, Clinton received 49.24% of the popular votes, and 70.4% of the electoral system. Dole received 40.71% of the popular votes, and 29.6% in the electoral college. Again, Clinton won the majority.

By all counts, Clinton won the majority vote in both elections.

Let's compare that to the 2000 election, where Gore received a 48.38% majority of the popular vote, but only 49.4% of the electoral college. Bush lost the popular election, with a 47.87% minority, but he won in the electoral college with 50.4% of the electoral college.

This is why I like Amtrack

[vudufixit]

OK, not nearly as fast or convenient as air travel, but I don't feel the heavy hand of "homeland security" when I take Amtrack. It's such a pleasant, relaxing way of travel and although it's statistically safer, you have the distinct advantage of already being on the ground in the event of a calamity. Although I'm by no means advocating this, CCW holders can probably carry without anyone ever knowing.

Re: on the vote

[King_TJ]

Well, yes, and quite a few of us have also learned that it runs much deeper than just a simple decision made by the current president.

There's a REAL good chance that no matter who becomes president, this sort of thing will continue. The leaders of govt. organizations (you know, the typical 3 letter bureaus like the FBI, CIA, IRS, NSA, ATF) want more tools at their disposal to do their jobs -- "privacy" be dammed.

The president simply can't wave his hand or sign a piece of paper and make all of this go away. All of those groups serve useful purposes and nobody's likely to just abolish them completely while in their term of office.

While it IS true that the lines are quite blurred between "Democrat" and "Republican" nowdays - it's simple-minded thinking to blame these "big brother" issues squarely on the president, no matter what their supposed allegiance is politically. You've got all those senators and congressmen getting paid off/bribed to vote one way or the other, and legislation being written with sneaky, unrelated legal changes constantly trying to be snuck through. You've got huge power struggles between governmental agencies, and lots of "behind the scenes" bargaining for the "lesser of two evils" that the general public never sees when we ask "Why the h*ll did the president just sign THAT into law??"

All we can really do is speak out loudly and often when we see these injustices happen - so they can't just start running everything right past us.

Re:So wrong?

[Anonymous Coward]

During the 1992 election, Clinton received 43% of the popular votes, and . . . Clinton won the majority.

methinks the parent doesn't know the difference between "majority" and "plurality."

Re:The entire airplane is a smoking section.

[Mister Transistor]

First, people in general are rude SOB's that wouldn't know common courtesy if it jumped up and kicked them in the groin. Not just us smokers.
So you're making a few generalizations that are a bit overplayed.

That said, back then, a majority of people smoked. It was not considered discourteous to light up, and if you personally objected, you were expected to speak up and say something. Rarely would anyone refuse to put out their cigarettte if asked to do so. Nowadays, people are totally rude and would probably refuse if put into that situation.

Yes, people are sneaking smokes here and there but mostly due to the draconian smoking restrictions that have been put into place.

As for smoking in the non-smoking sections, I believe you are thinking of train cars. Airlines did not allow smoking while the planes were on the ground (fuel, and all, ya know...)

In short, I'm sorry that you think smokers are all rude assholes, but it's the actions of a few that helped get the bans in place. It's probably a better thing in the long run, though.

A quote

[bezuwork's friend]

... "If you don't do anything wrong," they say, "you have nothing to fear from these things."

A quote:

"Of all the rights of the citizen, few are of greater importance or more essential to his peace and happiness than the right of personal security, and that involves, not merely protection of his person from assault, but exemption of his private affairs, books, and papers from the inspection and scrutiny of others. Without the enjoyment of this right, all other rights would lose half their value." [bold added] [Justice Field in In re Pacific Railway Commission, 32 F. 241, 250 (N.D. Cal. 1887).]

I think this is a qood reply to those citizens willing to shed their civil rights since they claim never to do anything wrong.

This quote was later quoted in a Supreme Court opinion by Justice Harlan in Interstate Commerce Comm'n v. Brimson, 154 U.S. 447, 489 (1894).

Justice Harlan continued "The principles laid down in this opinion affect the very essence of constitutional liberty and security . . . they apply to all invasions on the part of the government and its employes [sic] of the sanctity of a man's home and the privacies of life." [Interstate Commerce Comm'n v. Brimson, 154 U.S. 447, 489 (1894).]

Re:A quote

[CreatureComfort]

The problem with this, just like other quotes attributed to Ben Franklin, Patrick Henry, etc., is that there is no explantaion why the other rights lose thier value. Saying your above quote in response to the "Don't do anything wrong" crowd doesn't change thier mind. They still say don't do anything wrong and it doesn't matter who sees your "private affairs, books, and papers".

Unfortunately the only arguements to specifically show how the erosion of one right has lead to tyrannical acts, get labeled as "conspiracy theories" (said with that derogatory sneer) or that the people involved whose rights were violated (i.e. American citizens held now for over a year, in secret, with no contact to thier families or access to lawyers) "deserve what they get, 'cause they're *gasp, whisper* terrorists". My response at that point is that in our modern democracy, with the mojority being as ignorant of what is really going on as they are, they pretty are getting the government they deserve... unfortunately, I have to have it also.

Your favorite airline?

[yellowjacket03]

What did you like best about flying Northwest? The chronic tardiness or the spate of drunken pilots flying to an incorrect airport?

Canadian Laws

[iantri]

We just got a new law up here that makes it a legal requirement for businesses to notify you of EXACTLY what they are doing with your data, and forbid them from doing anything else without your permission.

It sounds like such a law could be useful for you Americans right now..

Re:Canadian Laws

[anubi]

I sure would like such a law.

I just retrieved a copy of a document my credit-card issuer sent to me... On the cover letter they state how they are committed to protecting my privacy, but on the little multifold brochure they included, in what looks like 8-point font or so, are the words:

J. CREDIT INQUIRIES.

You authorize us to make or have made any credit, employment and investigative inquiries we deem appropriate related to the extension or collection of credit under the account. ...

K. SHARING OF TRANSACTION AND EXPERIENCE INFORMATION.

We may, to the extent permitted by applicable law, communicate information about our experiences and transactions with you to consumer reporting agencies, our affiliates, and others who may properly receive that information.

L. SHARING OF OTHER INFORMATION.

You may refer to our Privacy Statement for more details about how we collect, use, retain, disclose, and safeguard information about you and your account. ...

The "privacy statement" they included also has a form I must send back with a form with a checkbox entitled:

[ ] Please do not disclose my Nonpublic Personal Information to nonaffiliated third parties ( other than disclosures permitted by law)

I really got a warm fuzzy feeling inside ( nauseous, actually ) reading this shit.

I really feel protected. Do you think they would want to do business with me if I indicated I would haxor their system "only to the extent permitted by law" ? They know full well the RIAA apparently got by with haxoring others systems to find how much music was being shared by a little girl in the projects without repercussions for the haxoring, so would the courts take lightly to corporate systems being haxored to verify integrity of private information? Is this "permitted" by law? RIAA already seems to have already set a precedent that it is OK to haxor to protect their interests, so then can we protect our interests too?

There are so many gray words in there. I would much rather see them only share information as "required by law", not as "permitted by law". And better yet, have a requirement that I must be directly contacted to release any information. I note copyright law states $150,000 per infringement so precedent has been set to encourage compliance. I see nothing saying law was written only to protect corporate interests... this same law should be used to protect all.

As we enter a new age of "rights management", all should share in it. Not just those which are profitable for one entity.

Re:Canadian Laws

[Detritus]

No matter what the law says, it isn't going to stop a lawyer with a subpoena or a government officer with a search warrant. Not to mention other situations where the law requires that a business provide information to the government.

Re:Canadian Laws

[iantri]

No, but it will stop airlines from freely handing over customer databases to government agencies at a mere request.

And I doubt they'd get away with it if they had to get legal permission - it would make a huge stink..

Re:they didn't get a puppet

[bjarvis354]

Here is an idea AC....go sign up for an account and start posting some facts to back yourself up.

Re:Gathering Information (club cards)

[NormalVisual]

saadly, a lot of people don't realize this, and stop going to stores that kept there prices low, but didn't have a card system. So those stores now have a card system, and increased there cost to pay for the system.

I suppose that's one good thing about Florida - Publix Supermarkets. Publix is entirely employee-owned, doesn't have any kind of card program in place, and has reasonable prices. Locally, they also have a guarantee that all the cashier lanes will be staffed between 5 and 7pm - I wish more supermarkets would follow their lead WRT customer service and focus.

Amtrak shares data with the government too

[Rescate]

Amtrak has worked hand in hand with the DEA to target supposed drug couriers. From EPIC-DIGEST April 11, 2001:

Amtrak Sharing Rider Information, Profit from Seizures, with DEA

Amtrak is providing the DEA with ticketing information about passengers in an effort to stem the flow of illegal drugs. DEA agents have direct access to an Amtrak computer that contains information on passenger names, origination points, destinations, and payment information. In exchange for access to the database, Amtrak receives 10% of whatever seizures the DEA makes using the information.

• Amtrak Helps DEA Hunt Drug Couriers, Albuquerque Journal, April 11, 2001. (Ed.: link broken)
• Amtrak shares passenger info with DEA for drug prosecutions, Declan
  McCullagh's politechbot.com, April 11, 2001.
• Your Rights Online: Keeping DEA In The Loop About Amtrak Travelers, Slashdot, April 15, 2001.
• Amtrak 'Sharing' Information With D.E.A., New York Times, April 15, 2001 (registration required).

So, the airlines aren't the only ones turning over passenger data to the government; Amtrak has been doing it even before 9/11. Their willingness to give up information for cash in the past leads me to believe they will likely do so in the future. And where does a huge chunk of their cash come from? The federal government (about $1 billion last year).

You might think that Amtrak could be tempted to give up a lot of passenger data in return for $1 billion. Well, what if the feds doubled that? Senator Olympia Snowe (R) wants to raise Amtrak's funding to $2 billion a year over the next six years, with an additional $48 billion for maintenance and new construction. It's probably just coincidence that Snowe introduced a bill (S. 1599) pushing for "the Secretary of Homeland Security to conduct a study of the feasibility of implementing a program for the full screening of passengers, baggage, and cargo on Amtrak trains, and for other purposes." The best part is section 1.b, which says:

PILOT PROGRAM- As part of the study under subsection (a), the Secretary shall conduct a pilot program of random security screening of passengers and baggage at 5 of the 10 busiest passenger rail stations served by Amtrak (measured by the average number of boardings of Amtrak passenger trains) and at up to five additional rail stations served by Amtrak that are selected by the Secretary. In selecting the additional train stations the Secretary shall attempt to achieve a distribution of participating stations in terms of geographic location and size.

I feel safer already!

Re:Facts are facts

[bjarvis354]

Only a fool believes that. Facts can be distorted in all sorts of way to manipulate people. Some people are more prone to this manipulation however.

You've posted plenty...All those AC's are you huh?

I am in awe of your black and white world view.

Re:There were no lies

[beeblebrox87]

left-wing (such as CNN)

If you think CNN (Conservative News Network) is left wing, then I must politely ask what you are smoking. CNN is right-wing enough to make any self-respecting liberal sick. They never pointed out the lack of justification for the the Iraq war, and I have not once heard them even mention the Patriot Act. These are things which are important and relevant to the US public, but (apparently due to conservative bias) CNN omits them.

I don't have a problem with the continued existence of conservative drivel like CNN or even fox news. However, I think that there need to be more liberal news sources available to the average American, to prevent American voters from getting such a biased view of the world.

Re:Good for Northwest

[Mister Transistor]

Actually, they found that pandering to the whining vocal minority (at the time) was more important than pandering to my toxic addiction.

It gave them better Spin and P.R. Bottom Line. That's why they did it, not some altruistic intentions about people's health. Those were merely side effects, noticed much later on.

Re:Body Nazis?

[BobaFett]

Non-smoking section in an airplane is about as effective as a non-peeing section in a pool.

Northwest is safer because of the data

[GrassyKnowl]

I will make it a point to fly Northwest because their airline is safer because they are taking measures to screen passengers.

Good job Northwest!!!

Funny, people always pick Nixon

[e_pluribus_funk]

when Johnson (D) was 10 times worse. Nixon tried to gather information on his enemies, Johnson blackmailed them into submission.

Is it already 1985 ?

[Migrant Programmer]

Is it already 1985 ?

In fact, most people don't realize that a sequel to 1984 was written by George Orwell's third cousin's nephew (twice removed), Jack Orwell-Smith-Clemence. Critics raved, comparing it to the likes of Rama II and Dune: House Atreides. Find it at Amazon today!

Photo of Brzezinski

[platipusrc]

Did anyone else notice the similarity between the photo of Brzezinski from that article and Bill O'Reilly?

Less Room In Coach

[green pizza]

Sadly, American's "More room in coach" is on its way out. They've been quietly cramming those extra few rows of seats back into their planes. Also, many of their planes never got the extra room in the first place. Seatguru.com has some more details.

Northwest

[kraut]

is without doubt the worst airline I have ever flown - I once accidentally ( a friend booked the ticket ) ended up on a code shared northwest flight from Skiphol to Mumbai. So much for going KLM :(

The whole plane looked decrepit; even the flight attendant's uniforms were mismatched and ripped. Which, I'm sorry, just isn't acceptable for an airline.

Wow, now that was an effective troll!

[beakburke]

Trollarific.

Re:You are a fool and a liar

[smokin_juan]

no blister agents.

The Seattle-Boston redeye

[adb]

that was 1/3 full so I got to sleep the whole flight. The terminal in MSP with the CPK. Oh, the memories.

Anonymous Coward wrote...

[abulafia]

My bad.

Holy crap, a reasonable AC. A clear sign of the apocalypse...

Re:So wrong?

[NortWind]

Majority means more than half, not just the largest slice. Neither 43% nor 49.24% qualify, so by my count Clinton did not get the majority of the popular vote in either election.

Re:There were no lies

[smokin_juan]

Do you remember past your last shit? Pre-bush, CNN was labeled The Clinton News Network. Now, if you have the sense to remove yourself from the republicrat line of thinking you'll realize that CNN isn't the Clinton News Network or the Conservative news network, but instead a big government mouthpiece which is supported by both republicans and democrats.

Re:You are a fool and a liar

[Guido von Guido]

Those leftists in the Army War College think we screwed upby pursuing Saddam. (Link is a PDF.)

"Of particular concern has been the conflation of al-Qaeda and Saddam Hussein's Iraw as a single, undifferentiated terrorist threat. This was a strategi error of the first order because it ignored critical differences between the two in character, threat level and susceptibility to US deterrence and military action. The result has been an unnecessary preventative war of choice against a deterred Iraw that has created a new front in the Middle East for Islamic terrorism and diverted attention and resources away from securing the American homeland against further assault by an undeterrable al-Qaeda. The war against Iraq was not integral to the GWOT, but rather a detour from it." (Any typos are mine.)

I'd love to see a democratic Iraq, which is why I initially had some faith in the Bush administration and supported the war. But let's face facts--we took a big gamble by invading Iraq, and it's not likely to work out in our favor.

Re:Clinton did not get a majority.

[Lord_Breetai]

So? Bush, Gore, and Clinton did not get a majority. All of the totals you mention are short of the 50% which is required.

Are you sure? The more than half aspect of majority is only part of the definition:

majority:
The greater number or part; a number more than half of the total.
The amount by which the greater number of votes cast, as in an election, exceeds the total number of remaining votes.
The political party, group, or faction having the most power by virtue of its larger representation or electoral strength.
Law. The status of having reached full legal age, with attendant rights and responsibilities.
The military rank, commission, or office of a major.
Obsolete. The fact or state of being greater; superiority.

Re:For a good reason

[GrassyKnowl]

Flying on an airline is not a right. It is a priviledge. If you refuse to give personal informantion then don't fly.

Re:For a good reason

[GrassyKnowl]

If you have something to hide then you should not be flying.

You are preciseley the kind of person that puts other passengers at risk and should be screened out.

Men In Black

[kerb]

yes. Its NASA and not NSA. Men In Blacks team was just informeed a martian is trying to penetrate the US soil for retaliation in light of recent illegal entries in Mars. Martian aliens are now all over cuba, mexico and canada, disguised as indian offshore programmers.

Re: on the vote

[janbjurstrom]

Very well said, albeit depressing as hell. I'm not American, but this is rampant in the EU too. Politicos, businesses and media, all busy creating artificial focal points of power and authority. Whether it's presidencies or punch-line agendas, dumbed-down 'news' or brands as identity/lifestyle.

Reminds me of the Facade pattern ("...can be used to simplify a number of complicated object interactions into a single interface."). We, the public, only get to play with facades; the important stuff abstracted away, protected and out of reach.

It makes perfect sense, that searching for any single or few points of control/power (a president, a product/service/brand, a standard 'journalistic analysis', etc.) is naive and simplifying. As is easy to see, changing a few pieces on the chessboard doesn't change the game; we'/they're still caught playing chess...

Making noise and protesting probably is close to all we can do. Though even that can get dangerous quickly, especially in a society with fewer rights to privacy and with eroded individual and 'cultural' freedoms. Something we discussed here, about Paul Graham's fine essay What You Can't Say

It increasingly looks like "the system" fights hard to file down the teeth on the parts of democracy that can bite back and hurt "the system" itself..

Jesus, this is both frightening and depressing. And it's back to work in less than 8 hours. Unh.

What's new?

[Saeed al-Sahaf]

While this is offensive in many ways, anyone who thinks their private data are safe from Big Brother needs to stop flying, taking the bus, driving, and go into their basement and lock the doors.

Don't drop WorldPerks points

[chiph]

I was going to drop my WorldPerks (frequent flier miles) from them, but then I decided to just let them rot -- for accounting purposes they are a liability to them. In the meantime I'll fly Honda air.

Chip H.

Re:You are a fool and a liar

[Guido von Guido]

It's called irony, the point being that these guys aren't leftists.

Re:For a good reason

[Crystalmonkey]

Of course it is a privelege, but that doesn't mean that a company shouldn't adhere to their privacy policy. The industry does not run us, we run it. I'm sure the "Well its my buisiness so go screw yourself, you don't need to buy my products" approach would give you a LOT of money Grass.

Re:You are a fool and a liar

[Guido von Guido]

Nah, it's called irony. They're not leftists. That's the point. It's an objective, non-leftist source.

Unfortunately, there's plenty of reason to be critical. We alienated our allies (aside from Britain), so that when we need more troops they will be hard to come by. Also, it makes it much more likely that the soldiers who die will be American. We've never managed to restore basic security, so that the Iraqis will associate democracy with chaos. My God, we didn't secure known nuke sites!

We also disbanded the Iraqi army. In addition to potentially helping with the security problem, we wouldn't have created a large pool of unemployed, angry soldiers who just might want to join the resistance. I think that we also missed our window to break the resistance, which was before it really began.

CARNIVAL

[Kalkin]

Before just outright quitting their flight plan, mail them, and tell them why they're wrong. Cutting up your card tells them nothing, and if you tell them you've done it, they can't salvage anything.

Ask them how they're going to regain your trust. So, they lied. Sure, it's a violation of trust. It should be a horrible business practice. I *do* hope they get sued.

I would strongly prefer that they get such a deluge of mail, that they, and other airlines who would consider it, to be reminded that they serve their passengers or no one.

Re:They lied. Someday people are going to get Frie

[kcbrown]

Really makes you wonder how many of these Corporations are already in-bed-with-the-feds ...

Someday you people are going to figure out that the ties between corporations and government are now quite strong and continue to get stronger. They have been growing slowly, inexorably over time, ever since the 1886 Supreme Court ruling that corporations have the same Constitutional protections as individuals.

How many of these corporations are already in bed with the feds? Almost all of them. The ones that aren't are the ones that don't exert any significant influence over the government, and ultimately are the ones that don't matter. But don't make the mistake of believing that the ones that are in bed with the government are somehow subservient to that government -- it's the other way around.

Mod parent up!

[mekkab]

I've got nothing but venom for Northwest and this comes as no shock to me.

I've got inlaws in Grand Forks, ND and Northwest gives me nothing but grief at every turn. Heck, I've even seen them arrest a mother of 3 on CRUTCHES Dec 20/21, 2000 at MSP airport... why? She had been in the airport for 10+ hours (obviously the Mesaba operated puddle jumper to Grand Forks was cancelled because their decrepit fleet is falling apart) and may or may not have surenndered her boarding pass, leaving her with just a stub, which was apparently not good enough to get on the BUS they chartered for us to Grand Forks... so yeah, they jailed the crippled mom right before Christmas.

In the meantime, every flight I've taken on Northwest has been punctuated by delays due to their fleet falling apart at the seams, and I only bring carry-on luggage now, because I'm tired of getting my bags lost.

Even the flights I get for free I feel cheated on!

Popular Vote != voters

[nifboy]

However, even Bush won a majority of the electoral votes, which are the only ones that count in the end. For those that slept through Government, the Founding Fathers thought the ordinary people couldn't know enough about the candidates to make an informed decision, so the electoral college was thought up as a group of informed, locally chosen citizens whom the ordinary citizens of their state would trust to pick a good president.

Living in cold Northwest country

[smchris]

Does Northwest fly to Brazil? How ironic to end up in databases at both ends of a trip.

The madman was right!

[msg1825]

You may find this interesting (true story): USENET has long had a kook from Australia who trolled many a newsgroup claiming to be tortured by the US government via a NASA satellite. He called himself I-Iector (IIRC) and would post messages like "Turn off your satellite NASA". He also admitted to having been diagnosed with schizophrenia, but was otherwise an intelligent character. Turns out, he was on to something!

Good!

[trifster]

I'd rather land safely than get blown up.

Re:You are a fool and a liar

[CrazyDuke]

Thanks, but I just noticed it on CNN.

Re:Not always more then half...

[NortWind]

So, are you saying that you honestly believe that with regard to the voting population, the majority can be a minority?
Perhaps you believe that 43% of the popular vote is a preponderance.
The normal English meaning (3a: in the M-W you site) is simply over half. In the electoral college, Clinton (and Bush) had real majorities, I'm sure you would agree.

Re:Fewer rights, actually

[kcbrown]

No, they have fewer rights. For example, a corporation cannot vote.

Note that I said "protections", not "rights". It's an important distinction.

Perhaps ironically, the right to vote is probably the least important right a corporation can be given, since a corporation's one vote cannot stand against the votes of the individuals that work for it. It's probably the only right a corporation does not have that an individual does, and that is probably only because having it would not make any real difference.

What is overlooked is the fact that a corporation is really made up of individuals. If you take away rights, you are really taking away rights for the individuals in that corporation.

Note that I said "protections", not "rights". It's an important distinction.

In any case, it's most certainly not true that if you take away the rights of a corporation, then you must also be taking away the rights of the individuals within. "Rights" or "protections" or whatever, when applied at the level of a group or corporation, only apply to individuals when those individuals are acting on behalf of the group, and most certainly when they are acting on orders of that group. This is reasonable, since people when acting as a group have much greater power than when acting as individuals.

It is that disparity in power that demands that corporations not be afforded the same protections under the law as individuals. This is especially true since a corporation is answerable only to people who, themselves, are immune to the consequences of any actions taken by that corporation, while the government itself is answerable to the people (or was, until the corporations got control of most of the information outlets).

As agents with great economic power, corporations must be made answerable to the people just as the government is supposed to be. That cannot be accomplished without reducing their standing relative to individuals, and that cannot be accomplished without restricting their rights and protections. Failure to do this results in corporations wielding much greater power and control over everything, including government, than the people do, as is the case today here in the U.S.

Re:CIA has nothing to do with Al Quada

[jxs2151]

What a ...

myth

My bad experiences with NW

[Xconnect]

Just to share some of my bad experiences on NW.

They made me go through a lot of unnecessary administrative tasks (i.e. I needed to go down to their office and show up in person) to get my seats upgraded (from Asia to the US) instead of being able to do it through phone calls or through their frequent flier website.

They refused to upgrade my seats (from US to Asia) claiming that the business class seats were fully booked but when I boarded the plane, nearly the entire business class seats was empty (there were a few chaps). The lady sitting next to me was fuming as well as she had requested for the same upgrade and was given the same excuse. She had experienced DVT in the past and had told them of her medical condition. The flight stewardesses/stewards told her it wasn't possible to move her up despite her problems during the course of the flight.

They cancelled a flight which I had booked ahead of time without informing me or my travel agent of the changes (USA to Asia) and I only found out about it when I tried to arrange for a change:

Operator - "Sir, I'm afraid there's no such flight"

Me - "But I printed the confirmation from your website!"

Operator - "Sir, there is no such flight... but I could put you on Flight XXX at no extra charge"

Jeepers! Needless to say, they've lost ME as their customer.

Re:Refutation

[stor]

> If I'm a "right-wing wacko", then so is the 70% or so in the country who support Bush

Yeah that sounds about right.

Cheers
Stor

Re:I don't give a damn...

[Fantastic Lad]

If it keeps me from getting blown up in any way, shape, or form, or anyone else for that matter, give it all over to Big Brother

You're trolling, right? Nobody is that stupid.

-FL

What, you mean this?

[AzrealAO]

October 1, 1958, the official start of the National Aeronautics and Space Administration (NASA), was the beginning of a rich history of unique scientific and technological achievements in human space flight, aeronautics, space science, and space applications.

Re:Repeat after me

[strike2867]

This is typically true. This is the reason for Al Quada enmity. The hatred of the U.S. based in the ignorance of the hater.

Ignorance? Osama attended school here. Im pretty sure he understands how things work around here.

Sometimes, sometimes not. In the case of the efforts against Saddam and on behalf of Iraq, it is quite true.

You are implying that our reason for going into Iraq was because Saddam was evil. There are plenty of dictators around the world who are much worse than Saddam. Because of Saddam, Iraqi people were all fed and taken care off. Look at some other countries where people are dying because of starvation. There is no reason why Iraq should be singled out.

Personally I hate the US, and unfortuantely I am forced to live here. The US is like a bully. And this bully for some reason likes to go around killing people because he thinks it will protect his ideas. Or to completely ignore others because they have different ways of living(Cuba).

Some European Railway Companies Use this

[Slashamatic]

as part of their advertising. They show a long line of people going through a security check to wait in a departure lounge for everyone else and then just someone stepping onto a train. With trains travelling at 250Km/Hr and above, travel from one direct from one city centre to another and the lack of invasive security - the railways have got a major selling point.

There are various discount cards that allow the railway company to data mine, but you can still buy a ticket for cash and nobody raises an eyebrow.

Anyone surprised?

[Raven42rac]

Is anyone honestly surprised by this? We already get treated like cattle/children/morons when we go through security at the airport, now we are going to get color codes and numbers, and put on "do not fly" lists. I, for one, have not flown domestically, though I have internationally, since these new "security enhancements" were put in place. Let me get this straight, 20 people who are not American citizens blow shit up, and I have to take off my smelly shoes for you to look through? Sure, look through my underwear, tear away the last fucking shred of dignity the American public has left.

Re:Repeat after me

[Aexia]

There are plenty of dictators around the world who are much worse than Saddam.

Hell, there was one amongst our ALLIES. Good ol' Uzbekistan, who we naturally rewarded for going along with us.

But I don't think I'll hear any Republicans calling for the invasion of Uzbekistan anytime soon.

Re:Good for Northwest

[oshy]

So I have to put up with damage to my system so you can have fun?

Nothing is going to damage you when you have to breath smoke free air for a few hours.

Someone admits to be addicted to acloholl, they get invited to AA.
Someone admits to a addicted to hard drugs, they get invited to rehab.
Someone admits to a addicted to smoking, they get invited to take another ciggy.

Re:Libertarians vs the left

[lindsayt]

Clearly you missed who I'm talking about - I'm referring to civil-libertarian liberals, not Ayn Rand-reading, self-centered, pimply-faced, pasty-white suburban teenage-boy Libertarians. You see, the word libertarian as a common noun (e.g., not capitalized, not a proper noun) simply means "One who believes in liberty", and in this context refers to liberals who are concerned about civil liberties.

I reiterate the other AC's question - who cares about Libertarians? Libertarianism sounds good to spoiled teenage white kids, but it's so self-centered as to be offensive to anybody who cares about a larger society. A Liberal Arts education cures most of Libertarianism, but there's a few who hang on to it into adulthood...

Re:You is using good grammar

[rbuysse]

Actually...

data
pl.n. (used with a sing. or pl. verb)

1. Factual information, especially information organized for analysis or used to reason or make decisions.
2. Computer Science. Numerical or other information represented in a form suitable for processing by computer.
3. Values derived from scientific experiments.
4. Plural of datum.

Re:Good for Northwest

[Mister Transistor]

No one is trying to "make" you put up with anything. My point, which you seemed to have missed, is that smokers USED to be courteous and would stop if someone like you asked them to.

Cutesy slogan, though, but you should amend it:

"Someone admits to being addicted to smoking, they get a HUGE ration of shit from every non-smoker around them, then get invited to a quit-smoking seminar."

Re:legislation?

[symbolic]

How many current customers stopped doing business with Northwest because of this? Most likely, the just shook their heads, muttered, "gee, that's too bad" under their breath, and carried on as usual.

Re:Good for Northwest

[oshy]

Maybe there are those that are courteous, but do I have to ask everywhere I go?
Do I have to ask the guy that arrives at the train station and stands beside me not to blow smoke over me? Do I have to ask the people in the local curry house if they wouldn't mind not smoking after their meal as I've only just started my main course?

Surly the courteous thing to do is not smoke in public?

My wife has asmatic problems. She cannot travel on trains in peak hours and takes a chance waiting for one off peak that she can stand somewhere smoke free. She cant go anywhere near a pub and we had to give up on our meal in one restraunt because smoke doesnt know where the smoking section ends.

Even if everyone that doesnt like smoke starts asking smokers to put it out when its effecting them, there will always be those that dont for selfish reasons. Take the train for example. One guy sparks up just before the train gets into the station. Had he waited 2 or 3 minutes, he wouldnt have upset so many people, but he decided to light up on the train and refused to put it out when asked. It wouldn't have hurted him to wait those 2-3 minutes, but it did hurt others.

Can you name another past time that is so dangerous to those arround you?