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PalmSource Drops Mac Synchronization in Cobalt
Gear_Media writes "Originally posted at PalmInfocenter: 'In a surprise announcement at the developer conference, PalmSource revealed that Palm OS Cobalt will no longer offer synchronization with the Mac. This marks a departure as previous versions of the Palm OS had long shipped with Mac compatible hotsync software.' Smart move? I think not."
i have something else my palm is in sync with ;)
This could be a good idea for them, because I bet Apple step in! (or someoene else) Outsourcing anyone!?!
Maybe its time for apple to ressurect the Newton?
As far as I know, Mac OSX comes with iSync which does this anyways.
They might be relying on Apple to take care of the software now. They have Address, iSync, Cal and other stuff that syncs with the Palm, so they probably figured, why not let Apple worry about maintaining this stuff instead?
With Mac OS X getting stronger support from both nerds and end users and palm losing in its own niche, not supporting a platform with an existing userbase is pretty moronic.
maybe palmsource knows something we dont re: isync?
Who cares about 3% less profit, when the CEO's are ranking in millions for running their company into the ground.
Apple obviously knew that Palm was going to bone them, so they've released iSync as part of MacOS X. I don't know how well it works since I don't use a Palm device.
I wonder if this stems from any concern at Palm that Apple might come out with an Apple-branded PDA.
On one hand, I think that is unlikely because, unlike the MP3 player, the PDA market is swamped and Apple can't make that much of a splash.
On the other hand, Apple has relentlessly marginalized 3rd-party developers in the past few years. That's not necessarily a bad thing (many of the iApps are great products), but I can see other 3rd-party developers getting scared.
However, all in all, I think Palm is just being stupid.
I can understand their approach though. If they release their own sync software they end up with a bunch of extra tech support calls.
Engineering is the art of compromise.
Right now there are two main players in the Handheld market: Palm and Microsoft. Most of those who are using a Mac are doing so because they arn't too happy with Microsoft's offerings. That leaves Palm (yeah, there are other companies, but none as strong as Palm). Sure its a pain in the ass to buy 3rd party software but I don't think it will affect them overall.
My Apple iBook G4 12" w/802.11b/g + Bluetooth is small enough anyway. It's the size of s sheet of paper and it weighs four and a half pounds. Meanwhile, it can burn CDs, play DVDs, and sync with my cell phone.
If I really cared about sync'ing with a lousy palm I've got Virtual PC on my iBook already.
I have been shopping for a PDA for a while, and am pretty set on a PocketPC device,but that's beside the point. It got me thinking though, that there aren't any PDAs that are really FOR Macs. Palm does (or now used to) work with them, but PocketPCs don't I'm sure.
Are there any PDAs that work well with Mac? Given Apple's success with iPOD, I can't help but think it would be a great move for them to produce an equally-sexy PDA.
no comment
Somebody got himself a woman...
See subject. I'm awfully curious to find out what kind of a handheld Apple will build. This way, Palm can be sure we find out. And they better hope Apple doesn't make a windows version... not 'cause they'll get beaten necessarily, but because they don't need any added competition.
There are no trails. There are no trees out here.
Well if Palm doesn't care about how I sync my device with my mac, I surely know that a P800 from Sony Ericsson p.e. does. Smart move indeed, same as in: I'll never look back.
It's a shame that Palm has snubbed Mac users. Still, I expect that Mark/Space will release a version of the missing sync or maybe iSync will be improved to work with PalmOS devices on it's own.
MacBook Pro. Worst name since the Bicycle
Given the relative market shares, maybe Apple is going to devote those resources to integrating with Linux instead. Didn't the Linux (desktop) user base slip past the Apple (desktop) user base last year?
These x% of computer users are among the ones who put their money where their mouthes are.
In other words: a highly attractive market. Especially for high cost PDAs, gadgets etc.
Sounds like Apple have synchronizing well and truly covered anyway. So this is probably no great loss. I mean Palm still haven't made it easy for me to have _one_ group of contacts shared between my PDA, cellphone and PC. It's left up to the true integrators such as Apple to do this.
Hopefully Palm will give Apple lots of support in the future -- and together can build something much more stable and well integrated than any Palm built effort could have produced.
--
Rare Window - free your photos
I have a song coming on! Windows Zealots can brag about something mac zealots can't. Ah ha ha ha ha! (To be sung to the tune of that "I'm better than you are, ah ha ah ah ah" chant)
http://www.beyourowneviloverlord.tk
http://www.frozenchickenthrowing.tk
http://www.killercamel.tk
Add to that that they need to dedicate developers to supporting a platform that less than 5% of customers use.
I'm sure that was their logic, but it's short sighted. Palm competes directly against Win CE--Mac users are a natural customer base. Case in point: I've been shopping for a cellphone/pda. Guess which ones I'm not looking at any more?
One man's -1 Flamebait is another man's +5 Funny.
He's try us he's into granny pr0n.
I've also owned and used various DayRunner paper organizers.
One of these will be usable with my wife's iMac and can hold a checkbook, paper receipts, and business cards. The other plays solitaire.
Goodbye, Palm - it's been fun.
Dewey, what part of this looks like authorities should be involved?
Use the fully-integrated iSync. Still... the parent is right, palms are underpowered and overpriced.
Why not just use Fink to install something OpenSource that can sync w/ a Palm?
Of course I don't know because Fink bails on me every time I use it and trying to to download the Apple Developer tools from connect.apple.com hasn't worked since I started trying to Saturday. Used Safari, FireFox, and Mozilla and none of them work. Any ideas?
This guy is way out there
Without Hotsync Manager, iSync does not work. So unless you want to spend more money, you will not be able to sync the newest palms with your Mac.
That's a shame because at my school district we were looking at rolling out a Palm program to help teachers stay organized. Now that Palm made this decision, I don't know what we're going to do.
I've already sent them feedback, but I'm not holding my breath waiting on a reply.
What, me worry?
USB became popular because Apple pushed it. Home video editing became popular after Apple worked with it and made it easy. By Palm ignoring a trend setting platform it runs the risk of writing itself out of history. Just as in luxury cars the high end features eventually trickle down to every day models. Palm will be lost. Now the funny thing to happen would be Microsoft making their Pocket PC fully syncable and compatible with Mac Office products and Mac OS.
If nobody writes a free conduit to iSync, then I will. This isn't that big a deal.
..don't panic
Mark/Space, the makers of the Missing Sync for Mac OS, will fill the void. Check out their website to read all about it: http://www.markspace.com/cobalt.html
Stuart Eichert
was mention by somebody on macslash, they had the same story and he went to the conventions and 60% of the developers or the Booths were for the mac, hinting possibly who their biggest customers were. Either its silly that companies will not tread where MS won't. With the linux market getting bigger and MS's desire to NOT support that OS i was under the impression that it would be a gold rush because the established monopoly wasn't interested, however some companies have, ala Novell and Oracle and will be safer by doing so.
Jonathanjk.com
If Sun raises a trademark infringement stink over the name "Cobalt", I won't blame them a bit. This is the first situation I've seen in a very long time where I could honestly state that a reasonable person could be confused over the use of the trademark. This is NOTHING like Linux laundry detergent or McDonald's Sheet Metal Fabricators.
This is more like, a computer maker creates an OS and calls it Linux, or a guy named Smith opens a restaurant called McDonald's.
-fb Everything not expressly forbidden is now mandatory.
"Fortunately, a third party company, Mark/Space, has pledged to make a version of their Missing Sync client for Cobalt. It will be released later this year in anticipation of the first Palm OS Cobalt devices. Missing Sync for Cobalt will enable users to connect and synchronize information between Palm OS Cobalt devices and Macs running Mac OS X via USB, network, WiFi or Bluetooth."
but, i'd rather rake millions in myself.
They have ignored the OpenSource community, and now they are snubbing Apple.
Palm has ALWAYS BEEN SUPPORTIVE OF OPEN SOURCE DEVELOPMENT. I take it you have never actually DONE any palm development. There is a completely (f)ree toolchain available for the Palm devices, and it's why I use it. Palm does not have the resources to support the smaller market of linux (and mac, I guess) users. They have always been willing to work with developers and release information - at least so far as I've seen.
Please cite examples if you are going to make statements like the above.
If they choose not to write a conduit, then the information will be available to do so. My guess is that Apple will include palm syncing in their next iSync update as a internal thing, and this miffed PalmSource for some reason. (the iTools already do much of what Palm desktop does, better).
..don't panic
This probably isn't a big deal cuz a 3rd party will jump right in. Makes it a big more expensive for Mac users though, but what are they going to do? Go to PocketPC? lol
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This is a dealbreaker for me. I was actually about to upgrade my Palm M505 to something newer/fancier, but if it doesn't work my iBook, that's it.
It also makes you wonder about the health of Palm as a company; are the Windows CE devices finally starting to take over the market and push Palm out ?
I have to believe that the business market for Palm devices is many times larger than the hobbyist ('hobbiest' for illiterate slashbots) market. And what are those businessmen running?
Windows.
So this may not be as short-sighted as you think. Let's say that they have 6 engineers responsible for the Mac sync software, each making 50,000 dollars. That works out to 300,000 dollars a year in savings if they don't have to hire those engineers. It actually works out to more than that when you take into consideration all the hidden costs that come with each employee (insurance, unemployment, etc.)
Palm can save maybe half a million dollars a year by stopping development for Mac. They only make about 80 million dollars a year in sales. They certainly aren't profitable.
Add to this that they only have about 34 million in the bank, and their burn rate will bankrupt them within the next 6 months, Now is exactly the time to stop supporting areas of business which provide insignficant upside and significant loss potential.
I have been pwned because my
I thought Metroworks Codewarrior was the defacto compliler for the PalmOS as well as Mac. Can't believe that they would have strayed. The iSync taking over (mentioned above) sounds like the most logical explination.....
A friend will come and bail you out of jail, a true friend will be sitting next to you saying, "damn that was fun!"
Aside from the fact that Apple and other third party entities do a MUCH better job a syncing that Palm does on it's own hardware, I think this is a strange decision. In fact, this might be one of the few "no longer supporting Mac" statements I've heard in almost two years.
If anything, most companies are jumping into the ring on Mac support because of OS X being so versatile. Seems strange, but like I said-- you'll still be able to sync your Palm pilot, just not with their software.
If anything, it's bad PR and just another reason to ask yourself why you really need a PDA anymore. I believe a good cell phone with iSync would take care of it.
"Politicians find new names for institutions which under old names have become odious to the people."
One thing to think about is that it's not like PalmSource has been all that good at keeping Mac sync up to speed with Windows in the past.
The first version of Palm Desktop for Mac was terrible. Then they bought Claris Organizer when Apple no longer needed it after killing the Newton and de-emphasizing Claris products other than FMPro. At that point things were OK, but really Palm just picked up Claris Organizer for cheap. It wasn't a real commitment on their part.
From then until OS X they really did nothing for the Mac desktop. Then they came out with an OS X version, but no new features (no network sync, no WiFi sync, etc...). Now they've given up altogether.
Mark/Space makes pretty good stuff so far, and their support has been very good. There's some question of whether or not they can handle the scale, but I'm sure they'll make a greater effort at pushing the Mac 'Palm' desktop forward than PalmSource has. In fact their first release will have more improvements than PalmSource has given us in years (WiFi sync, Ethernet sync).
The longer term issue is whether or not third party conduit makers stop supporting the Mac because of this move, even though Mark/Space has said they will make a conduit manager that works with everyone's conduits.
But in terms of development focus on the desktop and conduit manager itself, I'd expect Mark/Space to make more progress than PalmSource ever has.
Well it's better than dropping it in carbon freeze, I guess. Oh, wait. Different thread.
What probably happened was that Mac users are probably moving to the free Apple stuff like iCal and iChat and iWhatsis instead of Palm Desktop, and then by extension they'd be required by the userbase demand to make the Palms sync with the iApps. So they said, "Feh... whateva..."
I would almost wager on Apple putting a Palm sync feature into the next releases of their iApps. At this rate Apple might wind up making all the hardware AND the software for Macs.
Not that I'd turn my nose up at iBryce. C'mon, Apple. Everyone's grandma wants to do 3D rendering with deep texture editing.
--- Ban humanity.
iBelieve you meant to say "iThink Not"
I'm betting that Apple is intending to expand iSync so that it covers Cobalt...or, less likely, will announce their own PDA. But I doubt it will come to that--after all, the iPod already works as a low-level PDA anyway.
It is interesting that the Treo 300 I bought in December 2003 did not mention Mac support. It syncs just fine. If it did not work, I would have returned it and my wife's new phone. It appears their plan to drop Mac support has been in the works for at least a few months given their box labeling.
I am thinking of a player that supports MPEG 1, 2, & MPEG 4 in a palm sized form factor:
5"x2.9" screen
5.5"x3"x1.75" body
user removable batteries (Think Digital Camera or DV Cam)
AV RCA plug ports (to connect to anything from a Hotel/Motel TV to a HToB
Since it will be the evolution of the ipod, it will have some of the same iCal connections. How about calling it:... iiNewton
They only dropped support for it's Cobalt (v6) OS, not the v5 OS. Mac users can still use low end Palm devices, but if they want to upgrade, they'll have to get a PC.
I see several possibilites here.
Palm might be counting on third-party software to cover their Mac users, or counting on iSync. In this case, they blew it big-time by not making that clear.
Or, Palm could have decided that they just don't need any Mac customers, and didn't give much thought to how their existing Mac customers would feel about it. This would be amazingly stupid.
I don't see any evidence that the second one is true; I'm sure it's the first one. Palm has been pretty good in the past about supporting their Mac customers; why would they suddenly abandon them, just when they are trying to win mindshare for their new Cobalt platform?
Hmmm, I just checked. Missing Sync costs $40. I'm starting to think "amazingly stupid" again.
Thinking about this some more, Apple customers are unlikely to embrace PocketPC. Maybe Palm figures those guys will buy Palm PDAs even if Palm doesn't do anything to support them. That's playing with fire, if true. If you drive customers away, it's hard to get them back.
What Palm ought to do is make sure that Apple has all the data they need to make iSync just work out of the box with all new Palm PDAs. This ought to just mean keeping Apple up to date with some information. Easy, inexpensive. And they ought to brag to all their Mac-using customers that they are doing it!
And if Palm wants to walk away from their Mac desktop application, they should either gift it to Apple, or open-source it, not just throw it in the bin.
steveha
lf(1): it's like ls(1) but sorts filenames by extension, tersely
I think Palm's decision is probably a mistake, but hardly unprecedented. A lot of game developers, for example, have done the same thing.
The math is really pretty simple - if Macintosh development and support costs total less than the potential income from sales to Mac owners, the company stands to make money. Nonetheless, we have repeatedly seen companies forego such profits, reasoning that the market share is too small to bother with.
As long as they allow independent developers to step into the breach, no-one should suffer from this - but all too often that route is blocked as well. How they justify this to their financial officers I can't understand.
Why do you think Apple named the iPod the iPod? A pod is usually used in conjunction with more than one item. I always thought that an iPod is not just a MP3 player; It's just that playing MP3s is the first thing the iPod was made to do. I would be very surprised if the next generation iPods (excluding the minis maybe) don't offer more of a Palm like experience with a color screen with pretty icons and all that.
-Bradly
Mac users suprisingly announce they will drop support for Palm
You know, being a developer and seeing OSX come out, I worked my ass off to get one.
Obviously, my vision was not so shared amongst marketing and product managers at many corps. Ironically, my titanium laptop and reasoning behind getting it has been accepted and appreciated (if not envied) by just about every CEO/CTO/'Director of this and that' that I have come into contact with.
I've come to terms with my cellular provider, Verizon not having a single device that supports blluetooth. And now, I find that Palm is just walking away from Apple's OS!
You'd think Palm facing heavy compitition from winCE would look to the Mac as a safe haven of a sort.
Well apparantly not.
Beyond more than anything I would love a bluetooth device. If only for wireless data exchange. sure, I could set up a webpage that my laptop could rsync to via wifi, but an honest to god direct connecvtion from my laptop to appliance? WHY CAN'T I HAVE THIS SIMPLE LUXORY!?!?!?!
So to compensate for this frustration, I'll be going out and getting a 40gig iPod to serve as my iSynch enabled data transfer/storage device.
I wonder if Apple is planning an OSX-embedded edition?
It would make sense, be a sound development/product placement move and in fact be invogue.
Could the fall out with Palm be nothing more than the result of backroom talks between Steve and Palm???
Looks like someone knows how to read a company data sheet! We can't have any unemotional, numbers based arguments here at Slashdot. Mod this motherfucker down.
sudo apt-get instal kpilot
Religion is the main cause of atheism.
Palm has NEVER shipped Linux syncing software.. that doesn't prevent my Clie from integrating perfectly with Evolution.
Apple will just have to make iSync actually do what it claims to do.
I upgraded my Palm IIIc to a G3 600 iBook. So :P
Palm has really lost a lot of heat through their smoking gun aka the Palm OS. I remember when Palms were the ONLY real player in the PDA game. (Though the Newton was first and superior in specs.) Now most cell phones running an open source distro have more power and functionality than these little black computing bricks. So Palm dropped Mac supoort. Big deal. There are plenty of talented third party apps to make up for Palm's faux pas.
.deviatefromtheabsolute.
http://www.sonyericsson.com/p900/main.aspx?region
let's be serious, palm pilots and such have had their hay-day, but come on.... they were useful when cell phones were just for making calls, and laptops were too heavy to be practical. my phone was $50 w/ service, 2 years ago... it holds 500 numbers, voice memos, to-do's, etc... and syncrhonizes with my mac via isync. why again is it a good idea to spend hundreds on a palm?
I know that a lot of Mac users out there see this as some kind of conspiracy, but the truth of the matter is: if Mac Users were a viable market for Palm OS products, Palm OS would enjoy continued support on that platform. PalmOne, and PalmSource, are not run by fools. They're the only company in recent memory to beat Microsoft in direct competition. This decision can not have come as arbitrarily as a lot of the people on this forum speculate. Either there are some serious architecture issues with OS X that drive the cost of developing a software package that is comparable to the one available on Windows to an unprofitable level, or the market for OS X users is just so small, that it doesn't make it worth their while to pursue that segment. Considering that software for the Mac has been released for previous versions of Palm OS, I'd tend to believe that the prior is the actual reason.
I suppose there is a third option, and that is that Palm is aware of some new product that Apple is preparing and doesn't wish to commit resources to the development of a software package that may be trumped by some new Apple product. This doesn't make that much sense, in that Palm was able to wipe the floors with Wince, developed in house by MS. In that situation Palm couldn't give up on such a huge market segment and remain in business. With Apple, they could certainly give up on such a small segment without much concern. Apple has done so much with its branding that there is a risk that even if Palm could create a better product for the Apple market, it might not matter in the minds of Apple users.
by Mike Buddha -- Someday the mountain might get him, but the law never will.
What they don't realize is that iSync is not a HotSync replacement. I've posted on several Mac-related boards yesterday about Palm dropping Mac support and no one seems to care. They have iSync.
Heck as far as I know this news is not even on any of the Mac news sites (save SpyMac and Macrumors) since everyone assumes this means only the death of Palm Desktop (which virtually no one on the Mac side uses anyway).
-- Don Carcharo
I wonder that it doesn't bother Palm that they are tying their future to a company (Microsoft) that also happens to be their biggest competitor (PocketPC).
It'd be worth a little money to retain some freedom, I think.
I also wonder if Microsoft's use of PowerPC chips in Xbox2 is a similar sort of freedom from Intel.
How hard is it really, to put together a little app that sits between the USB port and some generic calendaring application, that passes info back and forth, applying simple rules as whether to delete, duplicate, or change a database record?
.05 (mac user) = 4Mil/yr old mac revenue
.5 (loss in customers) = 2 Mil/yr new mac revenue
The fact that some small third-party developer has been able to do this in the past (and probably will do so in the future) points to the fact that this is a trivial thing to do. The only cost to Palm is in tech support (which may be the real reason they dropped support, not the development costs.)
Assuming that Palm really can save maybe a million dollars a year by not developing for the Mac, and in doing so, they alienate about 50% of their future Mac business, AND that Mac users are represented in their customer base at about 5%:
$80Mil sales/yr *
4Mil *
Assumed cost savings by laying off Mac engineers: 1 Mil/yr
Projected loss by laying off Mac engineers: 1Mil/yr - 2Mil/yr = (1 Mil/yr) decrease in gross sales revenue.
Like I said, the real cost probably isn't in the engineering, even if you're real conservative about the cost of the engineering talent. It's probably in the tech support (Palm has outsourced their tech help line to India, so this probably has something to do with it...)
USB became popular because Apple pushed it.
USB is an Intel standard--not Apple--and x86 clone makers were shipping USB machines and motherboards 18 months before the iMac shipped(I know from experience.) Apple used USB at the expense of everything else to save money with the iMac. There's nothing wrong with that, of course, but please drop the fiction that USB in any way required Apple to take off, as it would have done so had Apple never adopted it at all. It was well on the road before the first iMac shipped. USB, along with PCI/AGP/IDE, etc., is just one more x86 technology Apple adopted in order to save money. No sin there, as the custom hardware route long ago became too inefficient and unprofitable to allow Apple to serve the general consumer markets without the widescale adoption of x86 tech.
Apple had a great opportunity with Firewire, but they screwed the pooch with Job's greed once again coming to the fore, and charged licensing fees for Firewire--which killed its widespread adoption as a standard in the larger markets. When Apple realized its mistake and rescinded the licensing fee, it was too late for Firewire to become the standard it could have been, as the industry had moved on.
Home video editing became popular after Apple worked with it and made it easy.
I was doing "Home Video Editing and Production" back in the late 80's and early 90's on Amigas & VideoToasters in 24-bit RGB, preemptively multitasking, while the single-tasking Mac was still monochrome and ran on tiny, 12" B&W monitors that were incredibly overpriced. There was nothing comparable for the Mac at any price at the time, and that's where "Home Video Editing" actually got its start within the personal computer industry. Please, I understand that Mac fans have a fantasy that if it's any good it has to be made by Apple or else adopted by Apple--but that's just a fantasy.
By Palm ignoring a trend setting platform it runs the risk of writing itself out of history. Just as in luxury cars the high end features eventually trickle down to every day models. Palm will be lost. Now the funny thing to happen would be Microsoft making their Pocket PC fully syncable and compatible with Mac Office products and Mac OS.
Companies do not seek to support "trend setters" and "styles" and "fashion" for their own sake. They seek to support markets where they can make money. If they drop a market, like Apple, it's not because they are trying to make a political statement, but because they aren't making any money in the Mac market and, most likely, are losing money in it. That's the only reason companies support a given market only to later withdraw that support. Think about it--nothing else makes any sense, does it? Companies do not abandon the profitable markets they serve.
One area that Palm had a clear and obvious edge over the PocketPC/Windows CE/whatever-Microsoft-will-call-the- next-version is that Palms, out of the box, work with both Windows and Macintosh systems. Giving this market niche up will be a serious mistake - almost all Mac users that bought handhelds were going to buy Palms until now, that probably is a major bolster to Palm's shrinking market share.
If I were to guess as to a reason, I would point at the beginnings of a competing product in the iPod - which already does the contact and calendar functions. One wonders how easy it would be to add the other functions to make an iPod a true PDA. That and the additional expense of developing for two more platforms (don't forget OS 9) that supporting Macs includes. I hope that the reason is not due to Palm using Microsoft's tools or code somewhere...
I'm not surprised, whenever Apple has some good luck, it gets cockey and neglects its developers. Adobe is doing the same thing, I wouldn't be surprised if Microsoft pulls office and Virtual PC, the way the pulled explorer.
Very rarely do you see Mac users toting non-Palm OS handhelds, thanks to new synchronization from such companies as mark|space now there are ways to seamlessly hook up with a Pocket PC or WinCE device....
Palm's products have a huge base of Mac users. I don't know what the hell they are doing with this, but it has to be one of the stupidest business decisions(SCO aside) that I've ever seen in my life.
My Windows XP using friend called me 3 times before I got his call, and he was urgent to tell me as I entered the supermarket about this...I tried to restrain my foul language in such a public place. He couldn't believe they are doing this either.
Mac users make up about 3% of the total PC market, and more than 3% of Palm users are Mac users, I guarantee you that.
Apple sells Palm handhelds, for God's sake!
Don't be surprised if HP(Apple's new partner, they are now bundling iTunes) lends Mac OS X support to their iPaq line somehow, Apple will surely be scrambling to get some handheld native on their system.
I own some shares of PalmOne, thankfully this is more PalmSource...but get ready for a dive, Palm, you dumbasses.
I've had a Palm for 5 years now. I've recently let the recharable batteries go to nothing (for got to charge it) and I don't miss it. My iPod has all my contacts in it and calendar too. Yeah, it's not as slick to navigate as it SHOULD be, but I am tired of Palm not going anywhere as a platform. Palm is the next Borland, IMHO; a company that I loved and wanted to destroy M$, but because of their stupidity blew it.
I swear by MacOS X. Although I use to swear *at* MacOS 9...
Am I the only one disturbed by the fact that your palm data is locked up in proprietary formats?
This is just the excuse I need to find a decent pda that spits out xml. If there is such a beast.
grokosaurus at yahoo dot com
Actually the problems with Palm Desktop made me switch to a Symbian device. Palm Desktop does not work if you want it on a shared NFS file system, so its a nuisance to get the data backed up. Palm Desktop does not sync if you have an USB hub. Palm Desktop seems to have issues with fast user switching (HP printers have the same problem). There is no use for Palm Desktop besides syncing on the Mac because it is not integrated at all with the rest of the desktop. Any solution that does not use Palm Desktop is actually an improvement.
I have been considering upgrading from my Handspring Visor to a newer palm. However, if you choose not to support the Mac platform, then I will upgrade to a device produced by one of your competitors.
(yes, I am aware of Missing Sync, and that the current units do work with Mac. But why support a company that won't support me?)
I use Macs to up my productivity, so up yours Microsoft!
I try new versions of iSync every time Apple releases them. And yet iSync still takes 5-10 times longer to sync then the Palm HotSync software. This sucks because I *want* to use iCal, but I can't if I have to spend 5 minutes syncing (instead of 30 seconds).
I hold it, that a little rebellion, now and then, is a good thing. -- Thomas Jefferson
Number of Macintosh users: 25 million
Percentage of Mac users who own a PalmOS PDA: 12%
(source: Apple)
Lost market for Palm: 3 million customers
dude.
the usb market probably would have grown and done it's thing without the imac, but you know what? the instant the imac came out, the usb market exploded. yes, it's because all of the sudden there was a captive market of imac owners who needed printers and slow-ass usb hard drives, but the point was the imac was a major product whose sheer popularity created an entire market for usb devices.
the same could be argued for digital video editing--until apple created a market for 1394 minidv cameras by shipping millions of copies of imovie, no one was doing it at home except for uh, you, with your 1989 amiga. cut-ting edge, my man.
and i clearly had a centris 660av with a 25mhz 68040 and DSP chip that could capture s-video out of the box in 1993. it was just a pain, because the computer couldn't talk to the camera very well--there was s-link, but it never worked right. apple made it all just work(TM) and that's kind of what people give them cred for, y'know?
(interesting note about multitasking: when apple went to OS X, preemptive multitasking meant that the age-old behavior of all processes screeching to a halt when the mouse button was held down was finally done away with. there was actually a massive outcry because people in realtime production environments had used this little limitiation to their advantage, essentially starting and stopping the computer as they needed. i just thought that was interesting.)
london is drowning and i live by river
...if Apple jumps on it. What they need to do is rework existing open source Palm OS connectivity solutions to work with Palm OS 6 and their existing iApps (iCal, Address Book, iSync). This would be better for Mac users as it would make things a little more unified. Sure, there's already a conduit for the current Mac Hotsync and iSync, but that's more of a kludge than the elegant solution we could see here. Palm could really just make this necessary software themselves at little effort anyway. All they need to do is adhere to whatever standards seem to be used already with phones and so on for synchronization. Either way, let's get rid of Palm Desktop for Mac OS and let's see more integration with better-made apps.
I am feeling fat and sassy
because I bet Apple step in!
Oh ye of too much faith!
You do not remember the lessons of the NCU - Newton connection Utilites. The NCU was botched so badly that this post to UseNet where Apple developers finally 'uncloaked' to call the 'mounting of their heads on pikes as a warning to future programmers to never do such a crappy job' as harsh.
Apple couldn't be bothered to do a good, working sync system for their own product, why would Apple bother this time to get it right?
Apple will have to rely (some more) on Open Source developers to get jpilot (or others) right.
I have extensive experience working with the low-level serial communications facilities on the Palm platform. I've bypassed hotsync on a number of ocassions because it is overkill for a lot of things - but I can't see anything that difficult about it, just tedious. The information, at least on the Palm side, is all available.
..don't panic
It seems you are the one living the fantasy. Where did he say USB was an Apple standard? Were you just bringing that point up to side track an already weak argument of yours? USB would be floundering without the captive market of Apple. As soon as Apple locked them iMac to USB look how USB moved onto the PC? The news of that times says it in so many words. With regards to your home video editing argument, again you side track into stupidity. Where did the original poster state that home video editing started on the Mac? The only fantasy is you thinking you made an argument, when in fact you addressed the air. Certainly companies don't support trend setters for their own sake. But stupid you seemed to think that point was made somewhere by the original poster. Funny I did not see that anywhere stated. Now it is upto you to prove things like Palm not making money in the Apple market rather than just pulling it out of your ass. You need to think about it, nothing you said makes sense with regards to the original poster. For every mac zealot there is a nut bag like yourself bringing up side points and claiming your way to be right. Think again piss head.
That calculation is as simple as it is wrong.
I persuaded some of my PC friends to buy Palms instead of something else. Guess what I won't do any more in the future?
bye. Andreas.
Just think of how many Mac and Linux users use Palm simply because of their hatred of Microsoft. Mac users have a history of being extremely over-zealous (I should know, I'm one of them... albeit a little more calm).
We'll see if PalmSource is wise enough to set up an OEM Deal with Mark/Space, but the truth is that my Palm went by the wayside years ago, and was replaced with my Cell phone and iPod. Though the Tungstens have been looking tempting as of late.
I think part of this is Palm's move to (in general) marginalize their own Palm Desktop application. On the Windows side they've already begun making the Palm work better with Outlook - the latest Palms can HotSync with Outlook without any third party software.
On the OS X side Apple already has the same framework in place with iSync, iCal and their Address Book.
At some point they obviously made the decision to let Apple and/or a third party worry about how to make it work and forego the cost of development themselves. And MarkSpace is already fairly well established - the Sony Clie has never synced with OS X and needs the Missing Sync software to work.
That's also ignoring that Garnet (support was only dropped from Cobalt) upon which it sounds like most consumer level handhelds will be based, continues PalmOS 5.X and will presumably continue to work with existing Palm Desktop software...?
You guys are putting way too much thought into this - it just ain't that hard. Palm screwed up. Didn't want to deal with Apple on their terms, and Steve Jobs and Bill Gates decided to hurt Palm, to their mutual best interests.
1. Apple is working on a PDA product of their own based on OSX, Palm got wind of it and decided to jump before they were pushed. Newton II? Odds are against it, but how much more work to add a bigger, 65K color screen to an iPod and brush off Inkwell, which is already in the OSX product? Sync with OSX, sync with Outlook, which explains the lack of an Appleworks 'Office' killer and the integration of Entourage to be used in the Enterprise. Now that Pocket Windows is in cars and smartphones, Gates is willing to cede some marketshare to Apple, whom he thinks he can control better than Palm.
2. The number of takers for Palm's Cobalt is so low that they can't afford the engineers to do the Mac sync. Remember, if you make PDAs like a Clie or other product, you probably purchased a license for Version 5 of Palm OS. If nobody is buying Cobalt (Version 6) you have to make cuts somewhere, and they are making it here. They can easily add it back in if enough Cobalt licensees ask for it.
Now - do a Google check. You will find that none of the usual suspects has agreed to build a new PDA using Cobalt - everything being announced is based on the current Version 5. Palm is in deep doodoo - they haven't sold any Cobalt licenses and have to trim back. Time to sell the Palm stock?
Jpilot is the answer. Not only is it a near-perfect replacement for the Palm Desktop, thanks to the pilot-link backend it can do things the latter can't, including synching over Wi-Fi.
Ok some of you don't use the palm..great..however understand they in some segments of the business world they are MANDATORY... As a 3rd year medical student I can tell you that every serious doctor is getting one, pt charting systems are supporting them etc .. they are awsome reference sources.
The problems with palms action is not the lack of hot sync as I fully expect isync to fill this gap and if not mark space will fill the gap.
The problem lies in the many applications on the palm that "sync" with a central DB to update a reference. Apple needs to ensure that palm and pocket PC apps that use this fuctionality have the hooks in OS X that they need to function , without a seperate version of the palm or pocket PC app.
This kind of thing KILLS Apples market share. Apple can do what they like on their own turf but they MUST interoperate with 3rd parties SEAMLESSLY, better then windows if they expect to grow.
This is a crushing blow which means Apple will have to work hard to overcome. Futhermore dog plus world will cover the fact that palm will not support the mac but no one will cover the fact that isync can fill a significant portion of this void.
I love my mac but more Apple needs to realize that they must beat windows when it comes to 3rd party interactivity.
Apple could come out with a PDA device
BUT
1.)It must be perfectly compatible with palm or pocket PC...no exceptions
2.) when connected to my mac those palm apps must sync and be able to conenct without a single change in the developers code.
if either of the above is NOT true then the problems will ALWAYS be blamed on Apple so long as the product functions under windows XP..even if the real problem is with the palm app.
Which brings me back to my original point...this is a huge burden for Apple but its the ONLY way to make the device work.
The iPod is an excellent example. The ipod has been succesful BECAUSE it works better on BOTH mac and windows esp with itunes....any PDA will have to follow the same path which is significantly harder due to multifunctionality of a PDA
i suspect that Steve Jobs problem with PDAs have something to do with these tough issue.
I would love to hear from some people who develop for palm about the problems with syncing thru a mac for a Db driven app..(like Epocrates or PEPID)
IMHO
anyway
Andrew
" How hard is it really, to put together a little app..."?
Judging by the Zaurus, pretty hard. Of course, nothing worked right on that machine, especially theKompany apps.
Really, it's hard to believe that mac support costs a million a year, not that any of this makes sense anyway.
I think Palm really need to consider this more. When people are looking for a PDA, the first main choice is "PocketPC or Palm?" and the fact that Palm was the only option with native support for the Mac must have influenced a fair few buyers.
Although Missing Sync looks like it will work, palm has lost that edge as you'll need to pay the extra 30 bucks whichever you choose.
Disclaimer: This isn't a troll, I'm just a fucking idiot.
This is because Palm knows Apple is coming out with its own phone/pda/ipod that syncs with .Mac and iTunes. Count on it.
my other sig sucks less
I really only need to sync my address book, and I can't even do that now (something about my 1st gen G4, OS X 10.2, and the serial to USB converter just doesn't work. It used to, but some upgrade broke it. I've tried everything to fix it).
Anyway, is there an address book function for the iPod? That would pretty much solve the "sync" problem for me.
PPC (PowerPC) is a microprocessor architecture, not a PDA platform. I think you're thinking of PocketPC...
He didn't say Apple invented home-video editing, but that they made it easy. Everyone acknowledges that the Amiga and the Video Toaster invented the desktop video market, but it wasn't a "home user" setup by any stretch: The Amiga+VT combination required you to drop about $5K, and you didn't get an NLE. Apple's iMovie isn't nearly as sophisticated, but it's far easier to use, and it's an NLE with near-real-time previewing -- as I recall, Newtek's Flyer NLE was a "breakthrough" at another $5K or so, wasn't it? It's fair to say that Apple put this technology into the home. Part of that is simply timing, in that Apple is around for digital video and DVD-Rs and Commodore wasn't, but the reality still stands--iMovie and iDVD are consumer applications in a way that the Video Toaster never was (and was never intended to be).
And, yes, it probably really is fair to say that Apple drove USB widely into the market. Again, nobody claimed that they invented it. It was around before Apple, sure, but nobody really gave a damn--it was Steve Jobs and his ever-lovin' singlemindedness that gave us the iMac and its requirement that absolutely all peripherals, from keyboards to mice to printers to scanners, be USB-compatible that kicked peripheral makers into high gear.
And you know what? The last few places I've been at, the new high-end HP network printers they ran supported Zeroconf. Guess whose fault that is. :)
I sync my Visor using the Sync utility in OS X. Is Cobalt something special and different? Maybe I am just a caveman or something.
Any preoccupation with ideas of what is right or wrong in conduct shows an arrested intellectual development. (Wilde)
I have a Handspring Visor... I went with Handspring because my order for a Palm PDA was on backorder for a month, so I cancelled it, ordered a Handspring, and it was on my doorstep at the end of the week.
I had a hardware problem after a couple of months, so I called up Handspring, and they took my CC#, sent me a new one, and I sent back the old one... and that was that.
I was so impressed by their service, I recommended Handspring to everyone. I waxed eloquent.
And after awhile, Palm bought Handspring. And now they're discontinuing Mac support? But the only box I sync my little PDA to is my TiBook...
And now my little Handspring PDA is getting old. It requires occasional percussive maintenance these days. So... I'm going to be in the market for another PDA in the near future.
I guess I won't go with anything from Palm.
Pick One: http://www-rohan.sdsu.edu/~stremler/sigs/sigs.html (Note - disable Javascript first!)
After this news, I, for one, will no longer be developing for PalmOS AT ALL. If they can't be bothered to support their users, I sure as hell can't be bothered to support them. Ironically, PDAs running Microsoft WinCE have better Mac support. Palm is shooting themselves in the foot here, and I am willing to bet that within a few weeks, they will announce OS X support for Cobalt synching, once they see the reaction from the Mac community. If they follow through with this threat, I'm positive Palm will be dead within a few years, as they will have lost all advantages over WinCE. No sense wasting my development effort on them anymore.
Oh my god!
USB is NOT an Intel standard. Intel BOUGHT a company which developed USB. Even so, tell me ONE SINGLE x86 manufactor which did ship USB-mices and keyboards as STANDARD before the iMac came out. The truth is: there is NONE. The x86 crowd even continued to ship PS/2 things for at least 2 years - just because the USB stuff was to costly for them.
Apple didn't remove the ADB, RS432 etc. stuff from the iMac. Its still in the chip set. Apple made it intentionally not accessible: USB was the ADB replacement. And most iMac buyers wouldn't have old ADB, RS423 or even SCSI stuff wanting to reuse. The Desktop G3 b/w which came with ADB and USB (and RS432 could be dropped in from third parties) and the first G4 (with PCI graphics) also still had ADB left accessible. Those were machines for professionals which might have their ADB Wacom tablets etc. still around.
A big mistake is to think of FireWire as a replacement to USB 1.0 or 1.1 . It was never thought to be so - otherwise why should Apple replace ADB with USB instead of FireWire? They are complementary. Its Intel who plays foul by extending to bandwith of USB to a region where it makes no sense in terms of its protocol.
BTW: in the late 80s you could get a Mac II which introduced Color QuickDraw and an awfull lot of NuBus-Slots. Which EACH of them could be filled with a professional 24bit Graphics card. Well - if you had the money to buy one. Also Apple came out with A/UX which was Apples first combination of MacOS and Unix. you've also a big misunderstanding of Multitasking. Why should preemtive always be better than cooperative? Only poorly written Software needs preemption and secured memory spaces. Up to the middle 90's Mac software was written so good, that Macs didn't crash. Only with the rise of the internet and its poor Netscape and IE software the "modern OS" features were missed.
To apply the term "Home Video Editing" to Amigas with Toast is a bit oversized. Yes - the Genlock was a big thing at that time. And the Amiga was even used by professionals. But could you RECORD, EDIT and PLAYBACK video? No. I would call that "Home Video TWEAKING".
At that time I always stated that AMIGA will survive IF they would put their Graphics chipset onto a NuBus card and sell it to Mac-Users...
BTW: the first one to lay the foundation of the Video-(editing) technologies mostly used today was - guess what - APPLE. With is QUICKTIME technology which was 10 years later still so much better than anything else that it was choosen as the container format for MPEG-4. could YOU still playback the movie files made that days on your current computer? I can.
Companies need trendsetters if they don't sell me-too products. Otherwise they can't charge the premium they need to fund the development of NEW technologies. If Palm thinks they could make no money on the Mac market they are plain wrong. All what Mac-Users are looking for is a simple small up to synchronize with the iApps. Palm could just buy it from Mark/Space for a fraction of what they will loose in Mac sales- but they were so "clever" to announce to drop Mac support at all.
I can only apload Palm for this: they have deserved to go the way all companies did when they dropped Mac support: go out of business. Palm's where - from the beginning - just hacks around the Graffiti software which they invented for Apples Newton. But the Newton itself was (and still is) lightyears ahead of the Palm in terms of usability and functionality.
What makes it even more worse: there is a standard called SyncML, which was invented with PDAs, cellphones etc. in mind. Don't know why Palm isn't using that and stays on their propritary format.
Lets see it clear: Palm will go out of business within the next four years. Simply driven by the momentum cellphones with Symbian or PocketPC will have. 20 million Cellphones sold a year, dropping prices and manufactoring cost - what will you buy in 2 years? a Palm for 100 bucks or a P900-alike for 50 ??
You would be right if you would say: even the Mac support withdraw didn't save them...
You have to look at it from Palm's point of view. The economy is still in a slump, they have reduced their workforce to about 740 employees, and they are trying to turn a profit. The only other place to cut costs is to drop support for the platform that sold less than 3% of the computers last year.
.2% less Macs in 2003 than they did in 2002, PC manufacturers shipped 10.8% more for the same period.
I'm not trying to spread FUD, but Mac users need to understand that Apple shipped
I don't know how much it costs to develop their HotSync software for the Mac, but I doubt that it's all that expensive. Palm devices also had a monopoly on Macs - heck, even old Newtons can't plug into a modern Mac. And, as Apple would probably point out, when you sell a PDA to a Mac user, today, you're selling it to someone who has a good looking computer and OS, and maybe an iPod with them - in short, if they've got a Palm-powered device, the device is cool by association. Plus, I'll bet that they sold enough PDAs to Mac users to make it worth their while.
There have been rumours for YEARS that Apple has been developing a PDA of some sort - the iPod was originally rumoured to be a combo MP3 player/PDA, but turned out to be mostly an MP3 player with some extra features.
I think PalmSource wants something from Apple - maybe it's an easier way into iSync, maybe its some more cooperation from Apple with the way OS X works... and, maybe they're trying to force Apple into releasing a Palm-powered PDA.
Sure, it's a longshot, but think of what a Palm-powered PDA would do for PalmSource, which now ONLY makes software. It'd give them huge "mindshare," the kind of 'hip' image that Palm doesn't have anymore as they've been replaced by flashier devices.
I don't think it'll work - I think that Apple isn't going to put ANYONE else in charge of an operating system with a GUI - there's no way they're letting PalmSource tell Apple how a button should work.
IF PalmSource doesn't change their mind -- and there's a good chance they will, IMHO -- what it might do is force Apple to enter the PDA market, which I'm sure Steve Jobs wouldn't mind TOO much. They could certainly use a Linux or similar PDA distro and build onto it. Now, I don't know much about PPCs that aren't used in Macs, but doesn't Motorola have some kind of a PPC for embedded apps? Maybe Apple could even use some scaled-down form of Aqua with relatively little modification. That might be cool... but I doubt we'll see PalmSource make Apple tread that path.
I would think it'd be pretty easy to build a sync program for linux based PDAs. Maybe the Mac users will migrate to them.
War is necrophilia.
>
Palm HotSync Protocol/API: undocumented
Palm core application file formats: undocumented
Palm desktop conduit API: undocumented
Absolutly right.
The standard is SYNC-ML. Not only because it is proposed as one, but also in terms of installed base: there are more cell phones out there using SyncML than Palms.
Its just dumbass from Palm not to choose SyncML.
Does this suprise anyone? This is what you get when you buy a shitty computer. If you bought a win/intel box like the rest of us, you wouldn't have this problem.
Oh Well, sucks to be you.
hilarious, a obvious tounge in cheek comment reversing the story is described a delusional self-important jihadi response?
no wonder you posted as a coward. I'd have been embarrased to have posted such idiocies with my handle too.
CrApple Lusers Base? how original, even less original that my initial posting...that coward-boy, was not easy.
yes, it's all politics.
Apple leaves PC users scratching for Ipod interfaces for a year.
MS slaps thier mac office users around for a few years.
FinalCutPro is for Mac only despite the fact you can quadruple your flops per buck on a PC (admittedly not as good video per flop PC but still making up for it in shear power)
welcome to the jungle
of the idealogue
I was doing "Home Video Editing and Production" back in the late 80's and early 90's on Amigas & VideoToasters in 24-bit RGB, preemptively multitasking, while the single-tasking Mac was still monochrome and ran on tiny, 12" B&W monitors that were incredibly overpriced.
I don't deny that the Amiga was a powerful, ahead-of-its-time platform, but I think by "popular" the parent poster meant old ladies putting together videos of their grandchildren. You know, popular in the real world, not just popular with Comdex attendees.
And while Apple was still shipping low-end black & white macs as late as '93 (Classic II, aka Performa 200,) the first color Mac with an external monitor came out in early '87, so it's misleading to say that the Mac "was still monochrome." Finally, those tiny monitors were 9 inches, not 12.
iSync is a Palm Desktop conduit, not a standalone sync program.
With no Palm Desktop for MacOS, iSync is useless. I submit as evidence the Sony Clie, which does not come with support for the Mac. iSync is useless until you buy a $30 third-party program called The Missing Sync.
I doubt Apple is going to completely re-write a program to change it from being software to allow you to update your Address Book and iCal from any number of devices including but not limited to PDAs to being a Palm Desktop clone.
Well, perhaps they have caught wind that Apple is planning some sort of Palm like device or the like? Secondly, why whine, lets get to hacking darwin so that we can run a slim Mac OS X on Palms or WinCE devices just like they've done with linux. Nothing stopping us.
Not true.
I own a Sony Clie and iSync(forgive the pun) just fine with the palm desktop and iSync without the 3rd party app. The app in question allows you to access the memory stick as a separate usb mass storage device and some other advanced features which i never use anyway.
I agree that some of the special functionality and software that makes a Clie so special is lost on a mac though.
Apple doesn't produce PalmOS, PalmOne does.
Besides, PalmOne is probably aware that the Linux community is full of hackers and the Linux community will get sync software working with any PDA released with any version of PalmOS within a few months as long as they publish some tech info. So far it's worked great for hardware manufacturers, why not a PDA manufacturer.
Smart move? I think not.
Who the hell cares what you think? Obviously someone inside Palm has done the market research and made a decision on what makes the most sense for their product. If their market doesn't include enough purchasers that are Mac users, or the support in the new OS is too expensive compared to the return, who are you to tell them otherwise?
Product development isn't done for the sake of goodwill or charity. It's done to drive the bottom line. You have no idea what it costs to put support in, and you have no idea how many Mac users exist, now or potentially.
Thanks for your uninformed opinion.
Add to this that they only have about 34 million in the bank, and their burn rate will bankrupt them within the next 6 months,
That's the key here. They have to cut costs (I'm in an outfit that's doing something similar), they hope/pray that someone will take up the slack for them. That , I understand. The trick is, for someone like me, that I don't trust that support will last. (I'm only a quasi-geek, and can't write my own conduits.)
Right now, I'm looking for a linux/bsd solution. I don't want my address book lost to me the next time I upgrade.
One man's -1 Flamebait is another man's +5 Funny.
What are they smoking?
Cobalt is based on BeOS, right? The OS that started as a MacOS alternative? Hmm.. let's see:
- started life on powerpc
- is based on BSD UNIX
- was once considered for purchase by Apple to become OSX...
plus, they said this in their presentation:
PalmSource made the decision due to changes in the hotsync architecture and how the new PIM apps work. The new PIM apps have be re-architected to more closely resemble Microsoft Outlook fields and the internal database use a new SQL like schema to store records.
OK.. so...
1) MS Entourage on Mac? eh? what? MS on Mac? huh?
2) OSX has a frickin' SQL server built-in! Not like 'SQL-like schemas' are foreign or anything...
3) I thought the point of a DB was to get information out of proprietary formats so that data-retrieval clients would be smaller and more platform-transparent?
I don't get it. Are they *trying* to be stupid? Or are they just a bunch of incompetent programmers? Or do they Just Not Care(tm)?
Hmm.. something doesn't add up here... are they going to give the Offical Palm Blessing to missing sync? 'Cause otherwise I know many who wouldn't trust their data with a 3rd party util.
Thought. Value: $0.02.
-Andy
Microsoft announces new emoticon product ratings, gives latest Windows and Office products XP
As a third party vendor has already announced that it will step into the void, this means that the Palm world will simply be returning to the way things were.
More interesting to me is the implication of the announcement that Palm apps for 6.x will be built on top of Microsoft tools: The new PIM apps have be re-architected to more closely resemble Microsoft Outlook fields and the internal database use a new SQL like schema to store records. While this could very well reference in house tools, it seems to me that they are thinking of using an MS dev kit to simplify development. I wouldn't be surprised to hear an announcement in the near future which proclaims that Palm OS 6 will support dot net.
Andeven Palm Desktop doesn't get it right.
Every time I hotsync and I've modified a single event in a repeating series, I get the erroneous message: "Blah Blah has been modified on the desktop and on the Palm, both versions copied to both." And I end up with two duplicate copies of the repeating event.
At first, I assumed it was a problem with DateBk, which I use. But after a conversation with DateBk's author, it appears that Palm didn't get syncing right and their sync process gets confused. It doesn't lose data so in one sense the err on the side of caution, but they are not sweating the details and getting it right.
I'd love to see an Open Source, Python-based hotsync application. I know I'd contribute to the project given that someone more familiar with the actual hitsync process gets the basics in place.
SInce MacOS X ships with the Python (10.3 includes the latest version Python 2.3), I think it would be a great option that would maximize the flexibility and openness of the package.
I used to get the latest and greatest of all the Bluetooth phones and PDA's that were aimed at Mac's (including Palms) - I'm now using a PocketPC phone in conjuction with PocketMac sw (http://www.pocketmac.net/) and the combination is full featured and awsome.... PocketPC will crash every once in a while - but surely this is a given with anything by MS - a reset fixes the problems... The depth and breadth of integration is phenomenal - including photos from iphoto, MP3's, tasks, calendars.... etc. etc..
Yeah, Palm is trying very hard to do better better integration with windows and outlook...
Unfortunately that brings them directly into Microsoft's crosshairs and they're setting themselves up to be shut out. I would think wince will always sync better with windows than palm.
If I was interested in better windows integration, I would have already bought a wince pda.
First of all, Mark/Space is not a solution. They do not provide a framework for conduits. Synching with iTunes and iPhoto is nice and all, but what about a Mac application that wants to synch to some Palm app?
The only thing I can think of is that Apple intends to open up iSync so that developers can write their own synching modules (iSync is currently a closed system that only Apple can sync data with). If Apple wants to do this, this is a much better use experience for Mac users, and there's no reason then for Apple to limit it to Palm devices; they could support Win CE devices as well.
As for an Apple based PDA, that's not going to happen. Palm and MS can barely hang on to the PDA market with smart phones and other integrated devices coming into the market; what's Apple going to add that allows them to break into the market? And what about application vendor support?
In the past, Steve said that he wanted to buy Palm. Perhaps Steve's got a plan that we're not aware of. But at this point, we can only dream; being a Mac PDA user now officially sucks.
Moderators should have to take a reading comprehension test.
Hey! in 1989, I used an Amiga, and was in a band named The Cutting Edge (or, aw we were known in Oklahoma, "The Cuttin' Edge ;-)
And you, madam, are very ugly. In the morning, I shall be sober.
Imagine PalmOS as an Open Source project, such a problem wouldn't occur. So why not choose a Linux PDA to connect to MAC OS-X?
My take on this announcement would be: there's a party going on in Redmond.
The real objective at Palmsource should be market-share, now they are trying to alienate their last viable market. Means, the big Windows shops will switch to WinCE (or whatever it is called right now) anyway and buy iPaqs. Microsofts market-share will go up in mobile devices, shareholders bail out of Palm due to shrinking potential. Apple users will be pissed and take a closer look at Symbian-based devices, ditching their existing Palm hardware.
Mark/Space will continue to tell the potential customers that it's no problem simply shell out additional bucks for something your Symbian device does for free.
There will be a great hangover in Redmond, but a good one.
my 2 cents
Palm already dropped support for OS X before this announcement. I "switched" from XP to an OS X Powerbook and was surprised (d'oh) to discover the OS X Palm Desktop would't recognize the USB-to-Serial converter Palm makes.
...
"A fix is expected by the end of 2003," said Palm. (This was December 2003.) Then last week they said "early 2004." Now I think they mean never.
Perhaps Palm is a victim of its own success. I'm still using a Palm IIIxe -- a great device, ten times better constructed than my wife's newer b/w Palm 125. For keeping addresses/phone #'s/memos/password vault on hand, it's well worth the money I spent -- 3 years ago. I was always amazed Palm kept upgrading/releasing its software for free. No one else does that these days. (Apple charges for iLife 2004, etc.) Still, it's a pain in the butt to have a perfectly good PDA not be useful because of some stupid conduit software. Of course I could spend money on a Keyspan adapter or new software, but why not just buy a new Palm
PalmSource Cheif Competitve Officer, Michael Mace, has issued a statement direcct from PalmSource regarding the issue in the article comments, "PalmSource is fortunate to have a great Palm OS developer community who provide solutions for Macintosh compatibility today. Palm OS provides an open and flexible architecture and allows its licensees to decide whether to ship a Mac compatibility solution with their Palm Powered device. (One such solution is provided by Mark/Space.) We are continuing our efforts with Apple to provide compatibility between Palm OS and Macintosh."
This last statement is the most promising. Assuming it isn't empty spin, further support for Palm devices via iSync seems probable (provided the HotSync manager issue is addressed). I can't imagine Apple will let a core part of their iSync hub disappear. But we have only the above to speculate about. Perhaps Apple will make some sort of announcement. Once again, speculation.
Still, I feel Palm's decision is a foolish one. I am a Mac user mostly, and when I hear somebody isn't going to support my platform of choice I get angry - feel betrayed - dread the smug comments from my Windoze using associates.. All in all, I am left uninclined to further support that company. For instance, my Clie 710C is getting long in the tooth. I've been eyeing Tungsten PDA's for a few months and was initially excited about the Cobalt announcement. A part of me wants to look elsewhere now just to spite them. Maybe an iSync compatible cellphone might be my next purchase?
But since I do own a Clie, and already own Missing Sync, I have already gotten used to zero Mac support from the parent company. I trust Mark/Space to fix this problem for future versions of the Palm OS. But other people won't feel the same way. Mac zealots especially. Is it good business to anger even a small percent of your customer base? Shouldn't the "working with Apple" comment have come along with the bad news? Seriously stupid business move, IMO.
~Doug!as
Fun with Inkwell | www.coo
I don't quite understand the comments I'm seeing in many branches of the discussion here. If the announcement is that Palm is dropping Mac synchronization support for Cobalt (which is the new marketing name for Palm OS 6), what does it matter what other solutions may or may not be available for Palm OS 5? A Palm OS 5 solution that exists now doesn't help you on OS 6. OS 6 includes two new types of databases ("extended" databases and "schema" databases). Any tool that currently supports OS 5 will know nothing at all about these new databases and won't help you on Cobalt.
So, if your comment is that JPilot or coldsync or pilot-link or iSync can be used on the Mac, then re-read the title here and pay careful attention to the word "Cobalt", because it's important!
As a side note, the fact that they are dropping support for Cobalt doesn't mean that they're dropping Mac support for Palm OS 5.x. They probably will keep that around, since they already have it working. And it'll probably be 6 months before any Palm OS 6.x devices ship. And even then, there will still be lots and lots of Palm OS 5.x devices shipping as well. It's not as if Palm (and Sony and all the other licensees) are going to introduce one new OS 6 device and then axe the entire rest of their Palm line. In fact, Sony just announced several new OS 5 devices...
That's bloody stupid of them. They just lost some marketshare with this 'smart move'. It would be cool if Apple would make it's own PDAs.
What about the pilot-link tools? Do they work on MacOS X too?
You are not accounting for a large base of Mac Users that either DON'T use google, or aren't even connected to the internet. Also you are not taking into account that a good portion of Mac Users consider the bundled Palm Sync/ similarity to the Newton compelling. There have been many debates about Apple marketshare - your installed base statement is just completely inaccurate. Most Macs and even MOST Apple IIs are still around and still being used. (My estimate in the high 70% range of all Apple Computers ever produced)I actually think eBay is better measure here - I make my living off selling older Apple parts - Apple parts to 5+ year old and even 10+ year old computers + occasionally 1984-1989 Macs is one of the biggest sections on eBay - are you telling me that less than 3% of the people in the world are looking for older Apple parts? Take into account that a lot of them search on PCs.
Which is another topic to address - PC market share should NOT be considered enterprise - these are ficticious numbers at best and shouldn't count towards the total (installed base and marketshare = because business is NOT "the market/the household share" that marketshare even refers to.
www.adzoox.com & www.jackwhispers.com
By the way - wrote this on Tungsten W about 30 minutes ago - didn't realize I wasn't signed in .... :)
Yell & scream & rant & rave... it's no use... you need a shaaaave ~ Bugs Bunny
To be honest, Missing Sync and some other free apps (whose names escape me) work better for me than any of Palm's software. It syncs with the components already built in to my OS, most importantly my Address Book. Palm's software was unreliable, slow, and (c'mon, I'm a Mac guy) Ugly. This is hardly upsetting news. Not to mention, if the rumor mills are correct, Apple has another PDA in the works. So, again, I say "Big Deal".
Someday a real rain is gonna come...
mac is bringing back the newton pda's, otherwise known
as 'iNewton'....
No. Apple's iSync is basically a conduit for iCal, Address Book and Mail apps. All you really need from Palm is the Hotsync app I believe. You may have to install Palm Desktop because of the way palm has the software setup.
Gorkman
After my last encounter with Palm's "tech support" I've decided to never again buy a Palm product.
Their tech support is only capable of sending canned reply, they don't read the tech support requests, and sending in a Palm for service costs $100.
Not worth my time or money. I am done with Palm forever. I like them, but their flaky hardware and pathetic support make for a "Never buy again" combo.
"Live Free or Die." Don't like it? Then keep out of the USA
Just like all the rest of us Linux users already do. Stop complaing and show some inititive on your own; write a conduit or the like.
Get it here.
http://www.pilot-link.org/
use Signature::Witty;
I'm not too worried about the syncing aspect of this, as Apple or other developers will step in to fill this gap. What is sad, however, is the end of development of Claris Organizer/Palm Desktop.
I've used Palm Desktop continuously since 1998, when it was still Claris Organizer. The application has hardly changed at all in the intervening years, but in my view it remains the most elegant PIM available. It's also remarkably feature-complete for such an old product.
"Palm Desktop 4.0" brought OS X compatibility and some terminology changes ("Contacts" became "Addresses", "Tasks" became "To dos" etc.), but beyond that it was the same app. It even retained the scripts to open URLs in Cyberdog, or create form letters in MacWrite.
Now that the product has been orphaned, I'll probably switch to Entourage, which I find nowhere near as elegant. What are the chances Palm could be convinced to open-source Palm Desktop and allow it to live on?
and your joke site fucking blows. - a PC user
The first thing that companies with cash flow problems do is to reduce expenditures in markets where the return isn't high enough. Perhaps you are right that the Mac base did not contribute to enough to the bottom line, but this is like a restaurant eliminating fish from the menu. People always add requirements to a product or service which they will not use. Sure, I need a navigation system. What, you don't offer one?... i'll go buy a...
Interaction between OSes is a requirement today(.) I can only say that I and my company would never buy a product which was so blatant as to remove the possibility. Palm is getting squeezed by smartphones and other product categories (tablets, winCE...), and I was actually considering developing some test products on Palm. So much for that... I smell blood!
I know it's like an extra $40, which isn't so fun, but the Mark/Space software's really good. I've got a Clie, and the ability to mount it as a drive is awesome. Take the iTunes and iPhoto stuff and it's a pretty nifty little package. Dare I say better than the stock Palm Desktop (and the butchered Sony version).
Chief Products Officer
PalmSource
To Mr. Slotnick,
I've been a Handspring Treo 180 user for a while now and regularly use iSync and the Hotsync tools to back up my Treo and synchronize my Addressbook and Calendar with the Mac OSX built in apps. I couldn't be happier with the whole configuration and interoperability of the two devices. Personally I think its the best damn thing since slice bread and I pity the masses who still have a separate devices with addresses, numbers and calendars in their mobile phone, PDA, home computer, work computer with out a single button solution to synchronize all that data.
My next purchase of the next generation Treo device will be dependent on the fact it will be able to interchange data as easily as it has my Treo 180 has in the past with my Apple Powerbook running OSX. By only supporting Windows in the future , Palmsource effectively is giving the Microsoft monopoly a distinct advantage, while Palmource loses its advantage of being the only PDA vendor for the OSX platform. I feel that Palmsource is only helping Microsoft establish itself as the only dominate player in the consumer computing arena.
Sincerely,
-Diganta
One can speculate this to be a case of Bad blood or a case of industry karma. I guess the ex-Be OS executives could be getting back at Apple for shutting out Be OS development beyond the 604 processors on the Mac. I'm a huge Be OS admirer and still refer back to Scot Hacker's columns on Byte magazine to understand the way a truly modern OS should run and be responsive under heavy workloads. I think its ironic that Be OS who's microkernel originated to run on the AT&T Hobbit processor (Newton PDA prototypes) will now end up going back into a PDA. Funny how that works right?
Umm...
Just as much as Windows users must be used to it. There is the every 18 month $250 OS update.
As a Mac user, I don't use almost any commercial software. I'm certainly not "used to" paying for updates I don't want or need. Get over it, man.
Working toward a usable PDA environment in the spirit of Newton OS: Dynapad
BZZT! Number of Macintosh users may be 25 million, but MOST of those are running classic Mac OS. Guess what? The market size, assuming there is nothing else going on, is much smaller than you think. Apple has a tiny new market share and Apple has a nasty recent history of boning 3rd parties in the ass. I'd say it sounds like a smart move given all the other discussion.
Anyone tried syncing a Zaurus with a Mac? How easy is it?
They seem a little large, and I'm annoyed that I'd have to waste my CF slot for an 802.11 card, when it and Bluetooth should be included without any need for cards.