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Is Windows Worth $45?
bgelb writes "This article from the Wall Street Journal questions whether Microsoft really innovates enough to justify the enormous amount of money (nearly 10% of the cost of every PC!) it takes from consumers each year. Hard drive and chip makers innovate constantly, but what about Microsoft?"
I'm not a Windows user, but all of my friends in my networking class pirate, even the ones who are Windows enthusiasts. Of course, they all build their PCs, I suppose it is really people buying OEMs getting hosed.
No.
It isn't even worth $0. I don't want it near me.
No, really, I'll get a restraining order.
====
Crudely Drawn Games
There are choices for consumers and if they refuse to vote with their wallets, I have little pity on them,.
...does that mean I should pay less money each year for a QT license if they don't release a bunch of new features? ;)
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Windows may take $45 dollars per year, but trust me... it certainly takes a lot more, when you factor in all of those lost papers, doomed databases, and the dozen hours each of us loses from meddling with its problems.
(I'm posting the text because the online access will go away in 7 days for non-subscribers)
Do We Get Enough In Innovation for What We Give to Microsoft?
It's 2004; do you know where your computer dollars are going?
One can learn a lot about the computer industry by looking at the breakdown of manufacturing costs in an average desktop PC, as compiled by iSuppli Corp., a market-research firm. Excluding labor and shipping, and leaving out the costs of a monitor, keyboard or mouse, the typical desktop PC these days costs the Dells or the H-Ps of the world roughly $437 in parts.
The biggest portion of that -- 30%, or $134 -- goes to Intel for a Pentium processor. The disk drives, including whatever CD or DVD is installed, cost around $104; the RAM memory is $54; and the remaining hardware items -- power supply, case, circuit boards -- total $100.
The final 10%, or $45, goes to Microsoft for the Windows operating system.
Because these prices are never disclosed, the figures here represent best guesses. But you can start to see the contours of the computer industry in that bill of fare. Specifically, you begin to understand how Microsoft could amass its $61 billion in cash and other assets. It's easy when you collect nearly 10% of the cost of every PC that's shipped, while having no manufacturing costs of your own.
Most technology companies that do well justify the money they make by saying that is what is required to fund innovation, that were it not for all the profits they were accumulating, the industry would be standing still.
The claim is suspect. The disk-drive industry, for one, manages to release drives with ever-larger capacities while often barely breaking even. And the technical challenges they face are among the most formidable, involving squeezing more and more bits of data onto ever smaller portions of a rapidly spinning magnetically charged platter.
Intel is no stranger to big profits. Analysts estimate the Intel CPU costs more than a comparable product from rival Advanced Micro Devices. What about the added charge? Think of it as an Intel tax on each PC.
Even if you're not an Intel shareholder there's arguably a benefit associated with that tax. Intel is like a research-and-development operation for the entire semiconductor industry. The manufacturing processes it uses for its latest-generation Pentiums are the most advanced in the world and cost billions of dollars. Eventually, though, these processes become widely available to everyone in electronics. This is one case where trickle-down economics seems to work.
That leaves Microsoft, and the question: What does the world get for the 10% Microsoft tax on every PC?
No one could ever say Microsoft is sitting idle. That was clear last week at a Research TechFest the company held at its Redmond, Wash., campus. Microsoft has an advanced research operation that employs about 600 people all over the world. These are some of the smartest people around, and they don't work on specific Microsoft products, but rather on long-range ideas, usually matching their own interests.
The TechFest was like a science fair. Researchers set up booths, and the managers of Microsoft's many products milled around, looking for useful ideas they could deploy in future products. The number of people doing the milling was in the thousands.
But is the innovation from Microsoft commensurate with the awesome resources it has been given? The average Microsoft customer probably wouldn't say so. Indeed, the advances the company lists for its new products all too often involve fixing shortcomings of earlier products, such as security and reliability in the case of its operating systems, and ease of use with its Office suite.
In fact, you can argue that genuine innovation is the last thing monopolists want, since it threatens to upset the very applecart that made them rich in the first place.
When asked which research from its labs has made its way into M
if you had an option to either pay it, or buy a PC without an OS. that it's forced upon you when you buy a PC (via OEM agreements) isn't fair regardless of the cost. I bought and iBook just because I wouldn't pay for Windows, since I would never use it. Yes, I pay a little for OS X, but it's something I may actually use (via MOL in Linux).
CBV
free ipod and free gmail!
So either you get users pissed off that they have to spend MORE to get similar functionality, or you get them bitching about how user-unfriendly Linux is (though free).
Not much of a choice between all three, really. What there ought to be is a free OS that is as comfortable an environment as MacOS and supports as much software as Windows.
They say I'm a dreamer, but my heart's of gold...
I have been pwned because my
I'd pay $45 for Windows. I'd pay $60 if they let me not install most of what I don't want.
Not sure about the math, but last I checked, Windows cost a lot more than $45.00. Then again, if it only cost $45... as in I could go to the computer store and buy it for $45.00... then perhaps it would be worth it. Then I could take the money I normally have to spend on Windows and use it to buy VMWare instead (vs finding keys for it on astalavista.com) and then I could still have my Linux system with my Windows via VMware config all for a more *reasonable* price.
This post is a sarcastic attempt at irony and humor and not meant to be an admission of guilt for software piracy that would lead to the BSA knocking on my door.
The only thing necessary for Micro$oft to triumph is for a few good programmers to do nothing". North County Computers
Does it matter if MS is innovating or not? They still get the 10% in the form of the "Microsoft Tax" whether they innovate or not. When I bought my Dell (which I won't do again, now that I've learned how to build my own from scratch), it came with Windows XP. I then upgraded to Red Hat Linux 9 (OK, technically I changed...), but MS had already got their bucks out of me for WinXPH. Mayhaps FTC should get involved in this (again)?
#define DRM chmod 000
And look at OS X... think of how fundamentally different it is than OS 9. Then think of XP versus 2000 or 98. Not that much of a difference.
IAALS.
It seems to me that essentially what Microsoft does is wait for someone else to come up with a cool new idea and take the risks of making sure it works, and then implement the same concept themselves in an integrated fashion so that the lazy and/or uninformed will just use theirs. I think a prime example of this is ICQ, which of course was followed by MSN.
Usually I would be the first in line to bash Microsoft, as would the vast majority of the slashdot group.
However, I do have to give them credit for Microsoft XP, being the best thing they have done in a long time, and for allowing me to use a form of Windows that can actually have a nice interface if you tweak with it a bit.
And for making a Windows that is easier to install, and doesnt crash quite so often, as Win98, WinMe, Win95, ad nauseum did.
So basically Microsoft needs to just wait, work on Longhorn, make it stable and release it once it is completely finished, with much much more stability and Bill Gates will just have to wait before becoming a quadro-gonzo-bobillionaire.
Post apocalyptic gaming goodness
I think their estimates are off a little. $45 for a copy of Windows seems a little bit underpriced. I know an OEM installer, and he says that every copy of Windows they get (and they have to get multiple ones) costs on the order of $99. Granted, he's not a _big_ OEM builder, but he's still an OEM builder.
He also has a monopoly on the area's new PC market, but that's okay.
I've paid a Microsoft tax on two of my 11 PCs. Five of the others are too old to run Microsoft software, two of them are relics that will never leave my house. One is incapable of running any Microslut OS and it would be preferable if it stayed that way. One is a hunk of silicon which I didn't pay microslut taxes on. One other, my Quadra 630CD, runs a Microslut OS, but I didn't pay the taxes on that one, AAPL did way back when. (consequently, that thing runs Windows 3.1 on its 486/66 processor better than my native 486/66 did, with less RAM)
This is not the sig you're looking for.
It's a lot more than that, when Dell is selling it's low-end machiens for around $399. XP Home costs over 25% of the cost of that new PC. Pro is almost half!
You see? You see? Your stupid minds! Stupid! Stupid!
OK - if you have questions maybe you should RTFA first, where it explains that $45 is a BEST GUESS of how much Microsoft is charging for the OEM version of windows.
Seriously, this is about as straight-forward RTFA question as you can get..
Closing line of article >> "Of course, Microsoft's research group is still young, and its best years may still be ahead. They had better be. PC taxpayers might start rebelling."
Might start?
I am pretty sure that the trend of "OS-less" or free *nix preinstalled PCs is not going to lessen. I have bought many, many "mini-pcs" based on the micro-atx form factor over the years to use as a distributed server grid in some of my colocation cages to control Lucent MAX-TNT servers. They came with some noname distro of linux... and were cheap as dirt and worked just fine.
With more big name PC vendors taking this approach.. It will be very interesting to see *just how many* consumers really want Windows when the choice is put in their hands.
Is not life a hundred times too short for us to bore ourselves? -Friedrich Wilhelm Nietzsche
what are they supposed to do- release feature patches every month the same way that hardware makers release revised editions and incremental models? Would you trust a microsoft patch which upgrades the filesystem? I'm not talking about a new media player or email client but some patch to the actual OS.
;)) so at least the whole system has been tested to be compatible with itself. If everyone else has a similar attitude then I guess the best we can do is wait the 1-3 years between versions and be grateful for what we get. One thing microsoft doesn't need is more pressure to rush their software to market.
I would rather wait for a new OS version than add another card to the teetering tower (ok, XP ain't *that* unstable
Build your own website - full service homepage system your m
I recently was on the hunt to purchase a laptop. I had no use for Windows as Linux suits all my needs. I went immidetly to the pro-Linux shops: HP, IBM, Dell.
I was very disapointed to find out that not ONE of the vendors would sell me a laptop without an operating system. ESPECIALLY IBM! I eventually gave up and went with my first choice which was IBM.
I guess my point is, sometimes you don't have a choice. You're stuck paying the MS tax.
Daniel
To everyone who's saying that the 45$ price is way out of touch with reality... READ CAREFULLY... The 45$ is what the WSJ is guessing that the computer manufacturers (eg: HP/Dell/Gateway) pay microsoft due to custom liscencing agreements. We may not be able to buy windows for 45$, but the computer makers wouldnt stand being charged full retail price when they use so much in terms of volume. Read carefully the article and the subtleties you will soon understand.
I have always wondered what the world would be like if a company with
...
better technical leadership had been handed the PC operating system
monopoly by IBM oh so many years ago. Perhaps it would not have been
possible for that company, whoever they might have been, to achieve the
level of domination that Microsoft achieved because such a company might
have put too many resources to the task of technical innovation and left
the business (i.e. monopolization) side of things to falter. It is quite
possible that the only company which could achieve the kind of dominance
that Microsoft has achieved would be one which, like Microsoft, cannot
innovate or excel technically, because it would take too many resources
away from the business side of things to focus on the technical.
I guess this would mean that the companies which achieve monopoly status
are by definition technically inferior? This would certainly seem to be
the case
Some people would argue that Microsoft is not a monopoly because it does
not in fact have 100% complete control over the operating system market.
But Microsoft does have a monopoly in one *very* important market -
operating systems capable of running Microsoft Windows software. You
see, I think that the fact Microsoft's operating system's are the only
ones which literally trillions of dollars worth of software can run
on means that Microsoft is by definition monopolizing an absolutely
enormous market. While it may sound flippant to say that Microsoft
has a monopoly on Microsoft operating systems, I think there is something
really important behind this. No one company should be the producers
of a commodity which so many other companies depend upon to sell their
product. It's not healthy for the market and it's certainly not to the
benefit of consumers.
No, but Microsoft is worth 45 stories on Slashdot every month. That has to count for something.
$45? Yeah ... It's worth that much to me. Easily. It lets me run the apps I need. $45 isn't really all that much. Heck, that's like one semi-nice dinner without wine.
I have purchased three PCs in the last four years with Linux preinstalled (one a laptop). I have purchased PCs with FreeBSD preinstalled. Don't tell me you can't find these on the web, numerous vendors are in this market.
If it was worth a dollar every time some Windows user asked me a question that made my nose spontaneously start bleeding and then followed up by saying "What do you mean you don't do Windows? I thought you were supposed to be good with computers!" (Which more or less spontaneously forces me to make THEIR nose start bleeding) Windows would cost ME a hell of a lot more than $80 or $90, and I don't even USE the goddamn thing.
I'm trying to teach myself to set people on fire with my mind... Is it hot in here?
This is the most on-target article on the subject I've seen in a long time. The only thing he didn't emphasize enough is that there is a deference between software research and hardware research. The sort of research that Intel does CAN'T be done by small companies or people working at home (for the most part). Intel, IBM, AMD and a very few other companies have the capital to do these kind of hardware innovations, and they may be helped a bit by government funded universities etc.
Software research can be done at all levels, by individuals, small companies, groups of individual working together. There is, and always will be Open Source software. I can't forsee there ever being an "Open" architecture CPU, that could be manufactured on a small scale (it would be a great thing if there was though!).
Microsoft's day are numbered unless they find a new business model. I don't hate them, love them, or feel sorry for them, thats just the way it is. A free economy will eventually favor value. It moves at a snails pace sometimes, particularly when impeded by monopoly practices and governmental indifference. But one way or another things will change, and anyone or anything who blocks that change will find themselves bypassed or submerged.
The article "does the math" that I'm sure even Bill Gates is capable of following. I just don't' think Microsoft has figured out how to respond yet. The stock market will punish them until they offer a response, and this article wouldn't be appearing in the WSJ if that were not the case.
True, I don't think it's worth it's retail costs... but how did this situation get this way? Because OEM's refuse to offer all their configurations with options for alternatives. By doing this consistently, they ensure generations of users are familiar with only one desktop solution, and then only that one is in demand.
Now I know some do or have, but you can't tell me there's a true choice -- I can't go to Dell.com and get what I want with Linux... heck, I can't get hardly anything with Linux.
Windows isn't overpriced just because MS is greedy. It's also overpriced because the OEM's have painted themselves in a corner.
Be very, very careful what you put into that head, because you will never, ever get it out. -Thomas Cardinal Wolsey
Microsoft's OS design gives us only the menu-centric launching interface starting with Windows 95. It did one thing that the Mac OS hadn't (and still doesn't, being icon-centric in navigation of apps)--allow a quick way to launch an application.
Slowly, Microsoft added OS features that allowed plug-and-play hardware detection, and peer-to-peer networking. That's about all I can think of from the OS level. Again, nothing fancy--the Macintosh hardware was doing this since 1986 with the Mac Plus.
The Office suite was a nice integration of packages, however I don't know if that qualifies as innovation per se.
Has Microsoft matched its software pace to the rest of the computer industry pace? No.
SECURITY: While all other operating systems and hardware have presented and adapted new techniques to keep bad guys out with greater ease and reliability, Microsoft has merely patched and patched, foregoing any true complete redesign of any of their products for tighter security. A quick way to fix this would be to drop the W32 architecture as their primary architecture, pick up a Linux distro (they're free!), then have a new OS that runs UNIX apps, has UNIX-style security, yet can still run W32 apps. Remember that MS bought the Virtual PC emulation software, which is a much better WINE than WINE? (Mac users can testify to this). Running the flawed Windows in a virtual machine can isolate any malware inside the environment in the same way that Mac users run Windows in their version of VPC. That way any infections stay there, unable to affect the UNIX OS that runs the virtual machine.
PHILOSOPHY: Microsoft has never learned the KISS principle. Their software is too bloated with features that the designers thought people wanted without keeping focused on what was only needed. This bloat extends into the OS and its millions of code and all apps. Also, Microsoft is a "Not Invented Here" company that stifles competition (read: inspiration) that encourages new ideas and products. MS would have never dreamt of the hyperlinking browser--and they might have bought it up before CERN could get the idea out and buried it in a file cabinet if they thought about it.
I can go on and on, but I bet that others have a few more ideas that support what little I've said.
Vos teneo officium eram periculosus ut vos recipero is.
Well they must be innovating at an incredible rate! Look at how fast the size of their software grows.
Every extra Gigabyte consumed on disk and megabyte allocated in memory holds useful new stuff as the OSs grow from release to release, right?
It is funny, if this was a troll against Linux instead of M$, it would have been marked as flamebait; however, since Slashdot is no longer home to open minded forums, it is marked 'informative', hehe... (Here comes the 'flamebait' marker ;).) Give it to me!
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Which is somewhat ironic when you consider it's just Yet Another MP3 Player App bundled/tied to an online store and a portable MP3 player - none of which were particularly "new technology" at the time.
And look at OS X... think of how fundamentally different it is than OS 9. Then think of XP versus 2000 or 98. Not that much of a difference.
Windows 2000 and XP (which are roughly analagous to OS X 10.2 and 10.3) are just as fundamentally different to Windows 95, 98 and Me as MacOS Classic and OS X are to each other.
"It's easy when you collect nearly 10% of the cost of every PC that's shipped, while having no manufacturing costs of your own."
this guy is a total asshat. how can he say that windows has no manufacturing costs? 3-4 weeks ago on slashdot after the windows source code leak, folks were saying "holy shit guys - look at the 4.5 million lines of code that becomes windows! what a crappy, bloated OS!". now this dumbass claims that it costs nothing to manufacture. how many man-hours did it take to write windows 2000? windows xp? the media it is shipped on costs very little, but one-time cost of writing is also counted in the total-cost. so unless it was written by non-paid interns (which we know is not the case), this guy is grossly underestimating the profit.
i bet he's just another disgruntled mac user...
Wave upon wave of demented avengers March cheerfully out of obscurity into the dream
Today nothing ever crashes, my work box has uptime of two weeks(win2k), our servers(solaris and red hat linux) never go down along with our sql servers(win2k server). If you getting crashes, i'd point fingers at hardware. I've had problems in the past with bad hardware(VIA Chipset + Creative Labs SB Live) or bad hardware drivers(VIA chipset before 4 in 1 drivers).
Have you ever been to a turkish prison?
And look at OS X... think of how fundamentally different it is than OS 9. Then think of XP versus 2000 or 98. Not that much of a difference.
Mac OS X is based heavily on NeXTStep. Really, it isn't *that* much more innovative than NeXTStep. Considering how long ago the NeXT was introduced, shouldn't we have much better operating systems?
Personally, I think the NeXT is proof that Microsoft has set us back at least a decade. Although there are differences in application, and the underlying hardware has improved immensely, both Apple and Microsoft are only now approaching the abilities of the old NeXTs.
Oh, well. I guess youth and exuberant ignorance will re-write history; OS X is "groundbreaking," and Microsoft paved the way for commodity computing. (Never mind the revolution was already well underway.)
Microsoft is to software what Budweiser is to beer.
Oracle Enterprise Edition processor cost (from price sheet): $40,000
Cost of PowerDVD Deluxe: $70
One month of Cable TV programming + Cable Modem: ~$110.
Sitting working at hyour linux workstation while everyone else is panicking about viruses? Priceless.
Apple didn't innovate iTunes. They bought the SoundJam MP software from Cassidy&Greene and dumbed it down quite a bit. perhaps they've innovated from version 1.0 to 4.x, but the first release was hardly innovative or a new technology...
or are we talking about the iTunes Music Store? I seem to remeber a company called GoodNoise (aka eMusic.com) doing the same thing in 1999. they didnt have the slick interface, or the major label support, (or the DRM) but they were selling digital music...
(note i use and enjoy using the iTunes app and Music Store. but they're hardly innovative. just new versions of old products...)
and there may not be as big a difference between win2000 and win98 as between Mac OS X and OS 9, but it's a lot bigger than the difference between 98 and 95 (or Mac OS 9 and OS 8 for that matter...)
(also note i use Mac OS X and windows 2000 regularly as time goes on i have less and less preference for one over the other)
How's this for a kicker: the sysadmin at my current gig purchased about 10 PCs with Win XP Home Edition preloaded, and now we need to pay $179 EACH just to upgrade them from XP Home to XP Pro. (The 60+ systems were all in "Workgroup" mode, moving them to Active Directory so I can have security on the file shares. XP Home won't join a domain.)
Yes, I know there are some hacks to make XP Home join authenticate to a DC, but they're just that, hacks (and work about as well.)
Indeed. When I buy an operating system, its value is determined by how useful it is - not how innovative it is.
I recently bought a chair for about $45 which is not innovative in the least. Nevertheless, I'm quite happy with it.
Yes, to me, it is worth it.
/home folder on that device, and check for its presence at boot, never worked. I never did get that working -- and that's not even kernel hacking.
I'll admit that I'm a bit biased and didn't pay $45, or even $75 or $275 for my licenses of Windows -- I got them through Microsoft for Partners professional discounts, which gets me them for approximately $30/license (Professional) but there's so much more stuff in there that it's closer to about $6/license.
I'm not a new computer user. I've been using PCs, and the Windows architecture, for 14 years now -- since right around 1990, and Windows 3.1. I still, at this point, find Linux too difficult for me.
Case study:
Booting a *LIVE CD* distribution of Linux, it was impossible for me to make it detect my USB Mass Storage device. Then the autoconf script to place a
Then, fed up, I went on AIM (gAIM) to ask a friend who'd had similar experience. When signing back on with a Windows client later in the day -- my buddy lists were completely rearranged, groups were created with copies of people, and a handful of names were missing, for no apparent reason whatsoever. gAIM messed it up.
I'd love to use Linux, but I'm afraid to honestly, becuase of the fact that I don't know a thing about how to use it, and it doesn't seem to want to be used itself. I'll just stick to administrating Windows networks. Anything I've wanted to do so far, I've been able to do under Windows. That includes running Unix-only scientific tools - thank god for Cygwin.
>RAM memory is $54
RAM memory? That'd be Random Access Memory memory then, right? Just like my PIN number (Personal Identification Number number)...
At least the war on the environment is going well
The only window I know that is worth $45 is the one used to keep the snow out of my house during the winter. But seeing how I live in Florida, a $10 screen in the summer and a $5 sheet of plastic in the winter seem a better way to go.
Microsoft may not have originally developed many features of computing that we take for granted today, but it is responsible for bringing them to the masses and making them popular.
Thats not innovation thats marketing, a completely different subject altogether.
As for the grandmother quote, I think the old girl might surpise you, considering the desktop distros out there.
I would rather pay to purchase a copy of a linux distro and support an open source cooperative than pay to purchase a liscence for a microsoft product and put another gold toilet in the Gates' House.
If more people felt the same way then maybe, just maybe, we wouldn't have to put up with another IE popup asking us if we want to enhance some random body part......
That really is my homepage, no kidding.
1. I build my own stuff from scratch.
2. I do not use MS products. Period.
3. I use and sell Linux. More bang for your buck.
Windows, out of the box, does nothing but get you online so you can get infected and download warez and pr0n. Oh yeah, and mp3z...
No word processor, no spreadsheet, no much of anything.
Linux comes with too many things to list.
Yeah, Linux has it's shortcomings but it's benefits FAR outweigh it's shortcomings.
I just can not justify paying for trouble.
I had a guy today ask me to sell him a system and install a pirated copy of windows on it.
I told him I don't do that, I don't have any copies of windows, and I wouldn't do that to someone that I like anyway.. I offered him Linux instead. He declined, I lost the sale. Life's tough..
Actually, if windows xp home was available for a mere $45, it'd be a steal. the $45, i guess, represents what the OEM pays for it, not the price that consumers pay for a boxed copy. nonetheless, even $100 ain't bad. let's review;
red hat enterprise liunx workstation starts @ $179.00.
mac os x is $129.00.
i know there are free (beer) variations of linux and bsd, but you don't get much support. i know everyone rags on MS for the extent of their support, but let's face it, they do still support their software. MS just recently ended support for windows 98. windows 98, people. six years of downloadable updates.
when you grab the cheapie pc @ best buy for $400 that comes pre-loaded w/ win xp home, i don't care if emachines is paying $4, $40, or $400 to microsoft. i know i'm getting a pc w/ a legal os, and i'll get support for several years.
is MS evil?
sure.
is $45 too much to pay for an OS?
no way.
IBM, too, is famous for its research, and it has five Nobel Prizes to show for its work.
:-)
Just wait until the government in Sweden gets a nice deal on Windows and Bill Gates will have his Nobel Price too!
(If you don't believe, compare it with the deal the government in the UK got and that he immediatly after it got knighted
bash$
I'm wondering personally, what is the cost an OEM customer (Dell/Gateway/etc.) actually pays for Windows XP Home?
I've asked Dell before what discount they could give me if I wanted a Laptop with no OS installed, and the answer was "none." When I tried to get them to elaborate on it, I wasn't really met with a positive response in any way.
It seems almost as if users really don't "pay for" Windows XP Home, which is $99 retail, but rather they are rewarded with a free copy (or at least super cheap copies) simply because they are helping maintain the MS Monopoly.
This is where the vast majority of Windows based PCs come from: large OEMs.
Personally, I believe a more fair price would be $50 for home and $100 for pro. MS may even get more people to upgrade from 2000 or 98/ME with those prices.
"You spoony bard!" -Tellah
Don't think about the cost of the Microsoft OS - think about how it drives hardware obsolescence - the average user only buys a new machine because they need a new version of Microsoft Office, which needs a new version of the latest Microsoft OS, which needs a faster CPU, and more memory. (Or, more recently, getting the latest Microsoft OS because they can't keep up with the patches).
This drives computer sales - versus what would happen with Linux - users would still buy better peripherals, but Intel wouldn't be where it is now - because the peripherals would use embedded processors, and Intel doesn't rule there. Memory wouldn't sell as much, because without OS bloat, we wouldn't need as much memory. So in summary, I'd say that Microsoft does serve a purpose - marketing of new computers.
As harddrive manufacturers add to the storage capacity of the drives MS innovates in occupying more of that space. :-)
> That has nothing to do with being a monopoly.
I see where you're going with this, but I don't know if its that clear cut. For instance, three weeks ago I was talking to one of our NOC guys at school and essentially they're going to phase out Novell because MS is giving them so much free software (upgrades to XP and server2003) they can finally shift to AD and drop Novell.
Now how is MS able to pay for this generosity?
1. They abused their monopoly and are arguably paying for this kind of thing with their ill gotten gains.
2. They're just a good company. *snicker*
I'm leaning towards 1. Novell has money and doesn't want to lose customers either, but they can't afford to supply an entire 20,000 person campus for 2 or 3 grand.
The question I think should be asked isn't whether it's worth it, but rather, "How many times do I have to pay for windows?".
Several people purchase computers to replace the computer they already have. The old computer gets junked. Lets forget about the possibility of people switching from windows to linux. Lets just ask an even more clear issue. Why can't the user use his old copy of windows on the new dell? Can't resellers ask for proof of previous windows version to not get billed for the software?
A little while ago I spent roughly this amount on a game called Uru. (For those living in caves, it's the latest in the Myst series.) I seem to remember paying quite a bit more for Windows, but maybe the price has come down since then. No matter.
When I'm playing Uru, I wander through a variety of odd (but usually very pretty) environments, often sitting for hours on end contemplating alien mechanisms that I don't understand. Sometimes I click on a control or two (or ten), and sometimes things start working as a result. Other times I wander for days, trying every knob and button I can find, peering suspicously behind doors, retracing paths I've been down dozens of times, and in the end I still haven't figured out how to make some odd machine power up or work properly.
Which pretty closely parallels many of my experiences trying to get Windows to do things.
So...ummm...I guess by analogy, if Uru is worth the money, then surely Windows must also be worth it. ;-)
A marriage is always made up of two people who are prepared to swear that only the other one snores.
And in the case of an operating system, the context is tool. For instance, my job is not installing and configuring the latest OS. My job is, however, writing memos and TPS reports. Now, forty years ago, memos were typed on an IBM Selectric 2. Nobody had one at home - they were prohibitively expensive. And no one expected the TPS report to be completed outside business hours. Then, twenty years ago, DOS and WordStar replaced the Selectric. But since then, the memo-generating tools and TPS report tools haven't really changed. They certainly haven't even gotten any faster, as my brain and hands tend to be the limiting factor.
The innovation in hardware, however, has changed the tool context. Now my boss wants the TPS report on his desk in Tokyo on Sunday. So I complete it on a PDA connected through the Dupont Circle Starbucks wi-fi. Very little software innovation - it's still Word and TCP/IP. The change in context is hardware (and firmware). Hardware innovation has made the specialized tool an ubiquitous tool.
Where can a software company add value in the 'ubiquitous tool' context now? Security. Microsoft recognizes this; they are rushing to try to show value in that context. They have failed so far, some would say miserably. It remains to be seen whether they will succeed.
Everyone will start to cheer when you put on your sailin' shoes.
I agree what what you say! And Microsoft by far as to support the largest combination of drivers and hardware... so of course they have the most problems.
I think everyone wants but does not realize that modern OS is not 'hardware proof'. They don't test drivers and hardware, they just assume they work... and fail badly when they don't. FreeBSD 4.9, Redhat Linux 9, Windows XP -- all the same. In some respects, Windows XP is actually doing more to adress the problem - the crash reporting component helps Microsoft narrow down which 'real world combinations' are problem. I wish they were more in sharing the results... but that is more a 'corporate America' problem than anything...
I am on smaller OEM and typicaly buy XP home OEM for $50-54 and XP Pro for $65 or so. I purchase 10 packs to get a price like this and go through 2 or 3 packs of home a month and a pack of Pro every six weeks or so. Dell buys direst from M$ while I go through a middle-man. I am pretty sure that since the big OEMs are buying 10000 the volume I do they get a better price.
Though they usually do opt for Windows as well. I looked at percentage of PC sales a while back and was confused. The numbers from all the big (and a couple not so big) manufacturers added up to around 50%. WTF? Was the data screwed up? No, turns out that still about 50% of sales are at local stores, or chains that do custom builds like CompUSA. The big OEMs have made huge inroads, and of course have the largest singular percentage slices, but they are NOT the only option, or even the most popular.
So ya, if you don't like the OEMs sticking Windows on there and not giving you an option, go to the mom and pop shop and get your computer there.
Windows 98 is still supported by Microsoft, but its six years old. Most software that old you probably wouldn't be able to find, let alone get it for dirt cheap. Yet I could walk into Staples or related and find 98SE Upgrade still for $80. How would you choose that over a similar price XP? I decided to look around at prices for Windows 95 since its no longer supported. One site had it for $40. Unbelieveable. I know the OS is intregal part of a computer system, but sheesh.
Given that Windows is a mature product that has not seen innovation for some time, $45 would be fair if it trickled down to retail price.
Microsoft's retail pricing is unreasonable. In Canada, a retail full install copy of XP Pro at Staples or Business Depot is almost $499.00, while the retail upgrade is $299. An OEM version of XP Pro at typical independant parts shops range around $229-279.
Any other company would have withered away by now, but that monopoly power keeps that loan-shark pricing justified.
I happily paid $128 or so for Win2K Professional at a store that was going out of business.
I have 98,ME,2K and XP. The only one that wasn't worth what I paid for it was ME and that was $50. Although it useful as it bridges the upgrade path. The upgrade version of ME will install with an upgrade version of 98 and then I can install 2K on top of that.
XP I got free from the university.
I wouldn't pay for it since I have 2K. If I didn't have 2K then I'd be willing to pay for it.
Ben
Work Safe Porn
Is Windows XP worth $45? Microsoft obviously doesn't think so.
I'd buy it in an instant if it were that inexpensive, but they seem to be insitant on selling it to me for $250. (That's XP Pro, OEM, Canadian price.)
Does it make you happy you're so strange?
I decided that I have to comment here. Sure, Linux is free, and XP has all sorts of problems that I read about on /. every day of the week. But I use XP. Why? Because it works. Sorry, folks, but XP isn't buggy, and it works well on any machine with enough RAM, and it's easy to use. Sure, there are worms, and the occasional security vulnerabilty that I hear about from Windows Update even before I read about it on /. But, dammit, I LIKE XP. It works well for me, and it's very reliable in everything I've used it for.
/. groupthink, but it's good enough for me, and no, I haven't been ripped off, and I haven't had my computers at home and at work riddled with viruses.
So enough with the Windows bashing already. Is it worth $45? Hell, yes. It is worth $99.
Maybe XP isn't good enough to pass the muster of
144l. ph34r my 133t l3g4l 5k1lz!
If it was impossible to pirate Windows, would the people who previously pirated it buy it? Probably not...
P.S. This is what part of the alphabet would look like if Q and R were eliminated.
I thought I'd read on the web somewhere that Intel no longer had the lead, but that AMD was the technological leader nowadays. I totally think that the Windows tax is unjustified whatsoever, but the Intel tax also seems unfair to me. What do other people think?
---- I am certain of only one thing : I know nothing else.
Case study: Booting a *LIVE CD* distribution of Linux, it was impossible for me to make it detect my USB Mass Storage device. Then the autoconf script to place a /home folder on that device, and check for its presence at boot, never worked. I never did get that working -- and that's not even kernel hacking.
Since you seem to have multiple machines in order to make the most out of your MS pro license you could surely have done a proper install, and put some time into learning the new system. Live CD's are great for home users who want to get an idea of what Linux looks like, or for experts to perform tasks where no Linux machine is avaliable. However anyone who would judge an OS solely on their experience of trying to administer a machine from such a disk has no business representing themselves as a computer professional/expert. You must be one of these clueless MSCP's.
If you can't learn the basics of a new OS within a month you don't have the aptitude, if you're not prepared to devote the time and effort you don't have the vocation. In either case you're in the wrong business.
"I am, it's Windows that isn't!"
I see even classic Slashdot is now pretty much unusable on dial up anymore.
Don't have the time to learn a new system like that ;) Not that I'm not interested in it, its that I don't have the resources as the owner and lead technician of my consulting company to do such a thing.
I keep my "business" and my "enjoyment" time very seperate, and my computer involvement on personal time is mostly just writing emails, browsing slashdot, and some gaming.
Clueless MSCP? Definately not. I put forth a lot of effort snsuring that I'd be well prepared for real world applications -- there's nothing I hate more than a clueless paper certified loser trying to pass himself or herself off as a professional.
I might be in the wrong business, I give you that -- there's pleanty of other things I'm just as happy doing, but computers and IT is where I've been for years, no reason to change right now, especially if I'm performing as well as I believe a professional should.
The limit of their profit margin tends to infinite, that's the easiest money in the world. There's no other market like this.
If you can read this, thank an english teacher.
Let it be known that I don't agree with some of MS's business practices... but, I think they have innovated over the years: ODBC, OLEDB, DirectX and a pile of other API's, driver development kits that enable countless hardware firms to support Windows. They worked with a number of companies to do Winsock (maybe not perfect, but much better than the tower of Babel of TCP/IP stacks that were produced for Win 3.1). I can't afford one, but I think Pocket PC's are pretty cool. Even if you find it a repulsive language, Visual Basic has spawned a huge 3rd party component industry and is responsible for millions of custom Windows apps. Dot Net seems to be gaining steam. We shall see. There are a few interesting projects at research.microsoft.com. I once read that MS employs more Phd's and publishes more computer science journal articles than any single university (don't know if that is still true).
;-)
The fact is, the same people you laugh about "blue screens of death" (something I have not seen since since early Windows NT days) will think nothing of spending a day or a weekend tracking down obscure X problems or other Linux-related driver issues). MS is not the only purveyor of FUD
So yup -- I think Windows is worth $99.
Is this sig nificant?
uncouple PC's from the operating system. Maybe that's the remedy the justice department missed. When people go into Best Buy they have to buy the PC and OS separately, then BB installs it for them.
That won't do anything to punish Microsoft, but it will do a lot to hurt the computer manufacturers. Microsoft is NOT the ones preinstalling Windows on these systems. It's the manufacturers at the request of the consumers.
But it would still make a great government solution to the problem: harm the people you're trying to help. Dell isn't at fault, but the new regulation is going to hurt Dell. And your small mom and pop down the street isn't at fault, but they're the ones who are going to catch holy heck when they're not allowed to install Windows for grandma.
Or what about Apple? Why should they be forbidden from installing their own OS on their own hardware, when they're not even involved in this petty dispute?
Don't blame me, I didn't vote for either of them!
Some examples are:
- Bug-laiden(R) operating system
- Chock Full O' Security Holes(R) web server
- What're Standards?(R) protocol compliance
- Buy Em' Out!(R) business practices
- Go Ahead, Hate Us(R) registration
- Assume You Want Everything DRM Protected(R) technology
- We Wallpaper Our Offices With Your Money(R)... that's it
The list goes on.In reality MS is like McDonalds...McDs invents the burgers and puts up marketing, but other people pay to put up and run stores eeking out a living selling burgers. In reality MS only has several thousand customers...Or think of an oil refinery...they sell gas to stations..not You and I. because of that they're allowed to "hide" their tactics behind contract law unlike your local cable or energy company which sells to US directly...and is held accountable for every dime!!!
My main desktop machine at home is a Mac, and I haven't so much as fired up Classic in months, if not over a year. Every page layout designer I know sure does, though. Even though most of them agree that Mac OS X is "better" in every way (at least on current hardware), they're going to keep using the crappy old OS too, because it's the only way they're going to have access to the applications they need to get their work done.
P.S. Macs don't run Visio; they don't run Access; they have Entourage instead of a proper, modern Outlook; and if you're into such things, they can barely run more games than Linux can.
Breakfast served all day!
Is $45 too much to ask for Windows? No, you do get a decent operating system. Does Microsoft overcharge for its product knowing that they could charge a fraction of that and still make an excellent product? Yes, Microsoft will make a profit anyway.
People are always bashing Microsoft and its Windows line of operating systems due to the old blue screens of death every 5 minutes and security flaws up the ying-yang. When you finally pull your head out of your ass, you will realize that Windows doesn't crash anywhere near as much as it used to. Windows 95, 98, and ME were originally built on 16-bit DOS technology but times changed and Windows XP shows how much better things can be. I remember back when I couldn't even use a decent (keyword) webbrowser on my Macintosh without the common "Error Type -11". As for the security flaws, yes, there are a lot but when you are on top, everybody attacks you from the bottom. There are a lot of Windows computers out there and most of the losers that exploit the flaws in Windows are Windows users themselves (why else would they know how to exploit some minute memory buffer or something like that) so it makes sense that there are a lot more Windows viruses. Besides, I paid $99 for a Windows XP Home upgrade in 2001 and so far, it looks like I won't have to pay it again until 2006 when Longhorn comes out. Why did I even bother upgrading, cause Best Buy gave $200 of free stuff when you bought Windows but it was still worth the cost.
Apple on the other hand charges people $129 a year (10, 10.1, 10.2, 10.3) for 129 patches to their operating system that should have been there in the first place. Yes a few new features have come out that I love (expose for one), but $129 dollars is a rip off, let alone having to pay it once a year. Don't argue that you don't HAVE to upgrade cause you do. Shortly after Panther came out, they released a Panther only upgrade for Safari which includes several SECURITY fixes. So yeah they were quick about releasing a patch but require that you upgrade your computer to get it.
Linux finally is yes, free, but costs more time than anything else. As a desktop platform it is maturing but still lags behind in funtionalty from comercial operation systems. I hate having to recompile the kernel for a simple update, driver, or to change little things. Yes, it is nice that you have that power but for a single desktop computer user whose time is money, you are better off forking over those $45 to Microsoft and letting the Windows Update run it's course, which if more people did, most would rarely get attacked. As a server or in a beowulf cluster, Linux is excellent. Why pay thousands of dollars for copies of the same operating system when you can download Linux, get one system setup how you like it and then image the rest which is great for a cluster or even a computer lab of web browsers or word processors. As for a server, install Linux without the GUI, choose the servers you need, install, configure, and almost forget. My Linux server has been on for over 100 days and I haven't even seen it since I installed RedHat 9 over 200 days ago. Check out the proof at http://www.eyesorerock.com/phpSysInfo Why the downtime at all? Linux's fatal flaw common to all computers, power failure and the UPS was about 2 minutes short of the power being restored.
In the end, each operating system has it's advantages. Is $45 too much to ask for a fairly stable OS that is being very much actively developed? I say no. Now yes $299 is a complete ripoff for XP Pro New User and Microsoft should burn for the price of Office and the frequency of new versions of it too. MacOSX is a great operating system but no, $129 is just too much to spend a year for what really amounts to a patch. Linux is great for a server, cluster, routers, and specialty boxes but until drivers are easy to compile and install and there aren't a billion different, oldly named packages (emacs, LaTex, pine, pico, libc, gcc, g++, top, squid, to name the well known ones that all Linux users should know by heart their first d
It's Office that you lose on. Microsoft makes most of their money on Office. Arguably, Microsoft is a company that sells Office; everything else exists to sell Office.
I have the box for Suse Linux Professional still sitting around (because I'm a slob) and the sticker on the front says $79.99 (USD). I'm lazy, so let's call it 90 bucks.
What did I get for that 90 bucks? An OS that I have been able to successfully install on two computers. I'm so giddy with the installation success, I'm thinking about raising three more computers "from the dead" to install the OS on them...
And, by the way, did I really need to pay the money for SuSe Linux Pro? Probably not... I'm too lazy to get cable modem, where I could have gotten a Linux distro for free.
For me, the important thing is that the OS works (damn well, thank you very much...) Even at the price I paid (for a "free" product), it was well worth replacing Windows with.
If one looks at just the two computers I have installed SuSe Linux Pro on, where looking at 45 bucks per installation (which matches the supposed MS price).... Not to mention Open Office, etc. The fact that I can throw this distro on as many computers as I choose? Hell.... where's the cost?
To me, the $45 for an MS OS is like getting a quarter-pounder from McDonald's for five bucks. For the same price, you can get a Filet Mignon.
And, oh yeah, did I mention it's "all-you-can-eat" Filet Mignon night?
Here in Germany you have to pay more than 100 Euro for the Microsoft Windows XP Home OEM edition, if you want to buy a laptop for example. There are only a few laptop manufacturers, which sell their machines without pre-installed OS. Just in case you don't need that OS, here are some legal ways to avoide the *Microsoft tax*.
Now, don't get me wrong. I'm prefixing this strongly, because it's important that people understand my position. I abhor Microsoft's practices, and detest their muscling around of other companies. Heck, Microsoft became a success due to what could be construed as Corporate Theft.
Now, that being said, I believe in the importance of stating valid arguments against Microsoft. There are many, MANY valid arguments that can be made against them, but the argument above is (sadly) not one of them.
When it comes to Operating Systems, especially ones that end users count on, innovation is detracting. A typical end user wants something predicatble, and above all, something that they don't have to reinstall, upgrade, or pay for in often occurring intervals.
The hardware industry gets away with innovation because they can appeal to 2 select groups of users that doesn't mind having to pay at closer intervals than the mainstream: gamers and high-end businesses. And through them, it filters down to the masses who are convinced by their zealousness that buying a new computer is good (when, most of the time, it's not needed).
Operating Systems don't have that luxury. How many things can one add to an operating system before A) You run out of things or B) You run out of things that won't put you into the realm of Monopolizing (for example, take the integrated Web Browser debate). Add those up, and it's hard to come up with reasons to innovate in the OS world.
Now some OSes are inclined to be more innovative. By design (and cost, if you consider that distributions can be downloaded for free), Linux can position themselves to be innovative, and often is. More reason to use them. But for Operating Systems that cost money, and already run the risk of Monopolization, it's just not a good idea.
-Vendal Thornheart
If Microsoft charges less, they face the "anti-monopoly" crowd. If they charge more, they face the "ripping-off-the-world" crowd. Microsoft doesnt have much choice in the matter, so they just keep the prices they have.
As much as I detest the Beast of Redmond (and I *am* a Linux user), I have to admit that Microsoft Research does a huge amount of really good research in basic computer science and mathematics. And a *lot* of this research ends up in actual products.
I know for a fact that some wonderful research in statistical machine learning is actually being used on the XBox, while some equally great theory in stochastic processes is being used for image super-resolution.
While the end user might have to wait for a bit for the benefits of all the research to trickle down to the actual products themselves, from a pure research standpoint, some of that money that they squeeze out of their customers actually ends up getting spent in the right places.
"In mathematics, it's not enough to read the words -- you have to hear the music"
....is that Bill Gates gets his wish. I really do. I home that Bill gets to see his DRM dream come true. Total and complete inability to pirate any software or OS at all, I really really do. For it is at that moment that a penguin shall crow signaling the true Dawn of Linux, as people across the world realize that all thier cracked/hacked copies of Windows and Office are the last ones they shall ever see again without paying cash out to Bill. Bill made Office the latin of the business world, and the home world as well, but it was done on pirated software as Joe Business took home the "work" copy of office for the night. Yup, I hope Bill's dream comes true, the sooner the better in my book.
Sera
Slashdot, where armchair scientists get shouted down and armchair theologians get modded up.
The cost of anything is simple. What the market will bear. In the case of Windows, the market has to bear the current pricing structure of Microsoft's operating systems. It's this very market that is to blame for the price, the market decided long ago to pay what Microsoft asked. The market itself has locked in to this supplier and is just now beginning to see that it made a very stupid and short-sighted move.
None of the OEMs are in a position to bargain with Microsoft. Look at IBM. They've invested millions(billions?) into Linux and you can't even buy a laptop from them sans Windows. When the supplier of the base ingredient to your product has a ~90% marketshare on that ingredient you have very little to no bargaining power. Limiting yourself to just one supplier of anything is going to come back and bite you in your collective asses.
Since the OEMs are in no position to bargain, that leaves a government to step in. My government attempted to straighten Microsoft out but failed miserably. Time will tell how others fare. Regardless of the outcome, it will have no effect how Microsoft operates on its home turf. Microsoft will continue to strong arm clients and dictate the price of their products until they are stopped by the U.S. government or the market refuses to bear the cost.You've got an easy breezy wind at your back...most of the time.
Microsoft will always, always have a monopoly on the PC Operating System market. The simple reason for this is that VERY, VERY few people or companies would ever take the risk of installing an O.S that doesn't run the vast majority of software products already available and demanded on the market. After all, when it comes down to it, isn't a free economy all about choice? This gives consumers two initial choices A: Install and use Linux (forget for a second that for many people this is going to have quite a steep learning curve compared to Windows). What does the consumer get? More money in his/her pocket, but FAR less choice in software applications. B: Cough up a wad of cash and use Windows XP. Rest assured you can go online, or go to your local "software supermarket" and have millions of choices concerning software, compared to a much smaller number for Linux et al. Given the fact that a huge number of people choose "B", software developers aren't really encouraged to support Linux, but instead keep churning out new programs for Windows machines, thus repeating the cycle. I don't think any of us will ever live to see Microsoft as anything other than a monopoly. Sad, but true.
I run a bussines. And anything that can save me 1 hour of work is worth $45 to me. Simple as that.
Switching to Linux for the desktop would cost me a lot more time than that, as I would have to re-learn my habbits.
I can even afford to pay it every second year without breaking a sweat.
And windows isn't that insecure. Shure if you only use MS products it is. But Apache, Mozilla etc. runs nicely on Windows too.
I prefer Linux as a server, but desktop Linux is still to bothersome for me.
Max M - IT's Mad Science
Why the focus on innovation? It costs a lot just to maintain the rest of the business, support, documentation, etc. I mean, if you want to make this argument about $45 for innovation, then we're being ripped off on most things we do in society that cost us money and have no innovation. To me it seems that $45 is actually not bad for the cost and complexity that goes into buying something like Windows.
The point is really: is it a _mandatory_ $45 hidden into the cost of an OEM'd PC; or is it an _optional_ $45 along side other operating systems
There is something in what ergo98 wrote but also there is something in what you wrote.
I'm also the one who considers $150 for Microsoft Windows an unreasonably high price (even more if it means half of average monthly income in our country). But I'm also programmer so I also do not like the idea of putting hard work into something and then geting nothing back because of others copying my work without my permission.
But we live in physical universe so physical laws rules: if we live on our own, sitting on chair thinking about something does not bring us food.
So we (mentaly working) have to consider it a very lucky coincidence that there are some people who are willing to give us some amout of physical goods (results of physical work: food, clothing, housing, ...) for just thinking. We should be gratefull for that - if we are lucky enought, we do not have to touch dipper or hammer our whole life thinking all the time and still we will have food (and clothing, and house, ...).
If we start to ask too much (for just thinking), well those kind (physicaly working) people will let us starve and we will have to stop thinking and start really working - with our hands. :)
hany
Anyone that's right-dragged a file in Win2k has probably seen the odd alpha-blending that Windows does. For those that aren't subjected to a dose of Microsoft at work, what it does it take the filename you've right-held on, invert the background (like normal selection in Win98) and then - this is the bit that gets me - alpha-blends it away from the point at which the mouse pointer "holds" the filename. And not just horizontally either, we're talking a full-on 2D alpha-blend. Ironically, I think it's supposed to make it look pretty, but with long filenames it tends to make the end furthest from the pointer unreadable.
Is Microsoft just adding twiddly bits and calling it innovation?
biopowered.co.uk - catalytically cracking triglycerides for home automotive use since 2008. Just say no to big oil!
I mean yes, for the stuff the end user use most there isn't much innovation. However from a developer standpoint they are all about innovation. Did everyone just forget .Net. I mean thats a pretty big deal for developers. Also .Net 2.0 is supposed to have drag and drop web interfaces. There is definately innovation, just maybe not in the area end users would see very often.
Just my opinion though.