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GNOME for Grandma
An anonymous reader writes "PCWorld colmnist Matthew Newton has written an interesting two part article titled "In Search of Linux for Grandma", in which he shares his thoughts on introducing computers to a 75 year old PC neophyte (through Linux).
He discusses the new spatial Nautilus that he is planning to unleash upon grandma, and quote from the article - "Grandma is never going to learn about "opening a file manager" to "navigate her way" to her documents. They are all going to live in plain view in folders on her desktop. And when she opens them, there won't be any surprises."."
That's easy... a garden gnome.
Next
Casual Games/Downloads
for myself. :B right now i'm battling my first red hat installation...
Isn't there a theory that says whenever you want to check if a software is _really_ user-friendly, give it for your mother to try it. If she can use it easily, then anyone will.
This, of course, assumes your mother isn't a geek or something like that.
My grandma's a command line hacker. She thinks GUI's are weak. :/
Perhaps one explanation for the poor usability of many open source apps is that while open source may be a great way to engineer software, the lone hacker collaborating via the Internet is ill-equipped to do anything even approaching proper usability testing.
All may not be lost, perhaps a software tool could be written to make such usability testing easier. It could record a user's desktop(perhaps using something like VNC), while also recording their audio commentary on what they are doing.
Do we think Linux is ready for this. Yes I admit if you have some one set it up well, any one can use it. But Grandma might hear of software X and want it. How will the be done, aka, I heard I can do my taxes on the computer with turboTax, can you set it up for me.
what are you going to tell her, if you can not get it to work with wine?
I like the idea, but I am not sure Linux is ready
There should be a distribution that's really straight forward.
During install give the layperson the following menu.
What do you want this computer to do:
( ) Send and Recieve e-mail
( ) Author Documents
( ) Browse the web
( ) Play Music
( ) More options I've missed
( ) Advanced
In the advanced panel there should be "Install Antivirus and Firewall and autoupdater"
automatically checked. (Dear Trolls/Flame-junkies: When linux makes serious dent in the user
market, linux will require AV)
There should be a basic mode and advanced mode interface.
Basic mode should just have the options that were set up during the install.
Advanced mode would allows access to a bash shell and what not.
Both modes should be proactively secure.
One suggestion is that the ability to open dangerous attachments should only be allows
if linked to the use of virus software.
Linux could totally wipe out Windows on all fronts if it had the design philosophy like an ATM:
It performs it's function, and it does it well.
It's an approach i've taken with my mother and the family Windows XP box. I created a custom shell that displayed "Microsoft Word", "Tesco Shopping", "Log Off" buttons.
I have a happy customer.
Simon.
Hmmmm.... I wonder if they could do the same thing for that other operating system everyone seems to use.... Oh yeah! Windows.
You still need a moderately advanced user to install and configure said user-friendly Linux box. Same if anything goes wrong, and yes, even with Linux, it will.
As my recent results showed, Grandma's only going to be okay if you're willing to come over and handle all hardware changed, and software installations. Good luck.
Javascript + Nintendo DSi = DSiCade
ack...must...pull...hands...from...keyboard...not. ..strong...enough...to...resist...
I don't see anything spatial about the new nautilus
Dang...
/* oops I accidentally made a comment, sorry */
75 is a little bit late, IMO. My dad is 60, and I'm not even going to bother. I made my mom get a Mac. She's 50. She actually wants to know how to use a computer. I think at some point in life, some/most people just don't care to learn new (read: life changing) things.
Arguably, some people NEVER care about learning new things. Wow this hole I dug myself into is dark.
As a 48 yo grandmother, I am offended that people equate being a grandmother with having a low level of technical competance.
ROCHESTER, MN--Karen Widmar, 33, who for the past two months has been trying to teach her 60-year-old mother how to use the Internet, called the endeavor "a Sisyphean ordeal" Monday.
Above: Lillian Widmar attempts to e-mail her daughter.
"Jesus Christ, you have no idea," said Widmar after yet another unsuccessful lesson. "Every single thing I show her, no matter how simple, totally freaks her out. She's still afraid to click on pictures because she doesn't know where it's going to take her."
Widmar said she introduced her mother Lillian to the Internet at her request.
"It's funny, I was always trying to get her interested so I could e-mail her," Widmar said. "Then, one day, she called me up and said she was watching Today, and they had a guest on who made potatoes, and the recipe was online, and was that the same as the Internet? When I told her it was, she got really excited. Maybe I should've lied."
According to Widmar, the troubles began immediately.
"Trying to show her how to use the mouse took almost a week," Widmar said. "For some reason, she got it in her head that you had to hold the button down to make it move. Then, when I explained that the computer communicates over the telephone via her built-in modem, she kept asking where you hold the receiver. And she wouldn't stop calling the keyboard 'the typewriter.'"
Still more complications arose when Widmar tried to show her mother how to navigate a search engine.
"For practice, I logged onto Yahoo! and had her search for cheesecake recipes," Widmar said. "She got totally confused by the fact that we were searching within a web site for other web sites. She kept typing her keyword searches into the Internet Explorer address bar, not into the Yahoo! search bar. Then, when she accidentally typed 'cheesecake' into the Explorer box, it actually worked, because there happened to be a web site called that, so that just confused her even more."
After nearly a month, Lillian had finally gotten to the point where she could log onto a web site on her own. Almost every time, however, something unexpected would occur, causing her to panic and call her daughter for help.
Above: Karen Widmar with her mother Lillian, who continues to struggle with Internet use.
"It could be almost anything," Widmar said. "She goes apeshit whenever a pop-up window comes up. And one time, she paged me because she got a message about accepting cookies. She was all freaked out because now she thought she was being charged for actual cookies."
Widmar said her mother still does not grasp the difference between the Internet and e-mail.
"Whenever she wants to send me an e-mail, she says she's going to Internet me," Widmar said. "I think that's because we use AOL, so she has to log onto the Internet to do her e-mailing. Then there's chat rooms, which she thinks is e-mail. I just pray she never finds out about message boards. That'll throw her whole world into a tailspin."
Despite knowing next to nothing about computers or the Internet, Lillian will frequently attempt to troubleshoot problems using new terms she had heard.
"Every time she hears a new word involving computers, she incorporates it into her questions," Widmar said. "Last time she called, she said she couldn't get her e-mail working and that there must be something wrong with her firewall. I tried to explain that she didn't have a firewall, so she said her Java must be broken."
Widmar said her mother is a fairly anxious person in general, and that her recent forays into Internet use have only exacerbated those tendencies. Among her mother's greatest fears, Widmar said, is that she will be the target of computer crime.
"Last week, she freaked out because she got a porn spam," Widmar said. "Now she thinks they're targeting her for stalking or kidnapping. She wouldn't go near her computer for four days. She was also convinced that because the computer could send photos, it was capable of taking photos of her, maki
As I was crawling through the KDE Control Center on the Xandros machine, I also got to thinking that the Gnome desktop is far more friendly to newbies. The KDE folks have done a splendid job creating a full-featured interface that helps people get their work done, but the Gnome hackers have spent the last couple of years applying a "keep it simple, stupid" approach to their UI, and the results are really something.
I'm planning on switching the wife over to Linux in the near future (easier to administer from my end), and am faced with the same dilemna - Gnome vs. KDE (vs. others) for a not-so-technically-inclined person. Has anyone had any experience with this?
Don't call me a cowboy, and don't tell me to slow down!
The article's title indicates that Grandma will be using GNOME. Where did GNOME come from? The article states that Grandma will be using Xandros, and that "Xandros does not offer a choice of desktop environments, as most Linux distributions do. The current edition runs a modified version of KDE 3.1.4."
alas... been taken off by the host
Quote
A spatial file manager is a significantly different concept from a browser-based file manager that lets you "browse" between folders on the filesystem in the same window, so it is important to realize that if you are accustomed to a browser-based file manager, there may be a learning curve, requiring an adjustment period before becoming adjusted to the new Nautilus.
Unqoute
How do expect grandma to use it if it requires a learning curve for a normal user. For grandma the learning curve should be flat.
I'm not so sure of this being easier for grandma to use and work with every day.
Studies show that many Grandmas are pleased with surprise goatse.cx links.
From the description, "spatial Nautilus" sounds exactly like the Finder (file system browser) in Mac OS 9. Nothing wrong with that -- I prefer it to the annoying one-window-per-folder Windows Explorer -- but it's interesting to see this being described as the "next step" in UI design, when it's more of a step back (or a step away from Microsoftianism if you prefer).
when she finds out that this revolutionary idea of opening a new window for each folder is one of the first features users turned off in windows 95
Have you Meta Moderated t
Where's the CowboyNeal option?
My grandma has done well for herself, learned how to scan pictures, use her digital camera, email and IM. Things will not be this way in 20-30 years since we will have all been exposed to computers. Maybe this is somet thing to look into, computer software for the retired hacker.
I don't know why that's so innovative... it looks pretty much like MacOS's old "super easy" setting (i forget what it's called now,been years.)
stuff |
"There is no teacher but the enemy."-Mazer Rackham
This reveals the new object-oriented behavior of Nautilus. The single major and possibly controversial feature of GNOME 2.6 is the introduction of a new look-and-feel for Nautilus: the oft-misspelled spatial metaphor. As first indicated here, the spatial metaphor brings a different methodology of viewing desktop folders and their relationships.
Has no chance of explaining anything to the technically challenged.
Do not try to read the dupe, thats impossible. Instead, only try to realize the truth
What truth?
There is no dupe
even with a comfortable GUI, some one with
zero computer knowledge will require training.
I was just thinking about something similar for
my father who has just retired and decided it is
about time to learn how to use these damn machines.
assuming step by step coaching is not an option
(I am not home enough) some written documentation
would be usefull, where does one find texts aimed
for computer newbies?
Me.
Note the label "FileSystem" in the Nautilus screenshot.
You just lost Grandma. Heck you just lost my dad.
You want to know how to design a computer for Grandma? You design it like a TV or a toaster is designed. Task oriented rather than open ended.
"For a successful technology, honesty must take precedence over public relations for nature cannot be fooled." -Feynman
I recently visited my Grandmother, who is quickly approaching 80 years of age. She is *highly* non-technical, and her spouse recently passed away, so she is pretty much on her own (in more ways than one, obviously).
We bought a simple Compaq for her back in the late '90's which was running Windows '98. It was a constant source of consternation and trouble. I spoke with her, and after a little debating, convinced her to 'revolutionize' her computing experience by installing Linux.
This I infact did, putting SuSE on her machine. I told her: "now, just leave the machine on all the time. You can leave the 'internet' window (aka, browser) always open. Be happy!"
Happy she is. While the DE used is actually KDE, the success of her transition goes to show that Linux is ready. In all honesty, I was surprised with the rapidity with which she grew accustomed to her system.
The most advantageous thing about moving her over: no longer are there long stretches of time where she can't email because her computer is on the fritze (she often had to wait for me or her son to visit and correct things). We've been in constant electronic communication since. It's wonderful.
Have fun trying to help grammy fix an issue over the phone when she inevitably breaks it.
Nothing like having an octogenarian type in cryptic console commands via the phone!
This is why you pay the Microsoft premium, let them deal with it when it breaks.
Modern distros install all you'd really want for your PC as a grandma, Namely a web browser, an email program and a word processor.
The big problem's setting it up - so the focus should presumably be on a setup and install system that basically runs itself. This is where Linux can be tricky, but to be honest, when I installed SuSE 9, it was fine.
A clueless n00b will always need help, especially if they've never seen a computer being used before (which is the worst case scenario), so why not teach Grandma how to use it and set it up for her at the same time? And why not get used to using Linux rather than Windows as a first system? Importantly, Linux is harder to break, if you stay out of root, and doesn't suffer from viruses etc.
I think Linux for grandmas is perfectly feasible with modern distros.
---
"I did nothing. I did absolutely nothing and it was everything that I thought it could be."
an app locks up and Gnome doesn't handle it nicely...
:)
Grandma: "lets see...when I was using Windows, Junior told me to hit Ca-tarl, Alt and Del. Whats going on!? Why is my computer shutting down!"
might have to remove that CTRL+ALT+DEL sends shutdown off
JediLuke
-Do or Do Not, There is no Try
Unless Granny is very bright and willing to learn, get her a Mac and use "Simple Finder" or whatever it's called.
Mine's 71. I gave her an old iBook running Mac OS9 and she's happy as a clam (no pun int.) She uses the bundled OE & IE. Nothing else.
I'm not really a web designer, I just play one on the Internet.
I am probably biased here, my grandma was working with those cool sorting machines IBM used to have... I am 3rd in a long line of I.T. people.
stuff |
I don't want to start a flamewar here, but isn't there a huge duplication of effort and needless competition created by having two competing windows managers? It seems to me at some point the two will have to be merged, for the good of linux as a whole. Really, I don't want any Gnome fans or KDE zealots arguing over which one to use, but for my 2 cents I'd go with Gnome. Although it is uglier it is (seems?) more functional and stable.
I don't understand why there are two anyway? I saw in the news X is forking too, Redmond must be rubbing their hands in glee. How hard is it for these guys to work together? That's the beauty of e-mail, because you get as long as you need to write a reply, it's always less confrontational than face to face. And these guys can't even get on civilly even with e-mail!
Meine Schwester ist sehr, sehr reizvoll - Nietzsche
Grandma got run over by a penguin
Mmm....
thought about doing but never bothered getting around to it.
:-) )
My Grandma is 80+ and she is using Linux today. It's not any harder than Windows boxes...you just dump links to everything they need on the desktop. Her biggest problem isn't the GUI interface for the OS...it's the GUI interface for the apps she has to use. Even something as simple as K-Mail has way to many features for her to ever use or need. Redesigning the OS for Grandma isn't really the path I think is a worth while investment in time. Building more basic apps that are easier to understand are...what is Grandma going to do after she opens up her star office document or word document? The complexities of those programs are a lot more difficult than just getting to her documents. As it turns out my project in replacing her e-mail client has been on hold for a long time now...I'll try and finish it in a few months...hopefully slashdot will grace me with free advertizing when I finish it (sorry I don't code for free these days
Nice idea, but it seams like it's the wrong direction.
My grandma is running Debian/woody on the machine I setup for her.. I locked most of her config files so that no matter what she does, it will not automaticaly save session information.. so if she messes it up, she can just reboot.
I setup 4 icons for her to click on.. OpenOffice 1.0 (writer), Mozilla, Mozilla Mail, and a button that does a shutdown -h now.. that's it..
I also setup the system with diald, so she doesn't have to figure out how to startup a ppp session.. works great.. she only calls me once a month about "problems with the computer" which always mean, something she forgot, and is doing incorrectly.. like when trying to click with the mouse, highlighting text in OOo, and then typing over the top of whole paragraphs of text.
"grandma, just use the keyboard"
Sure, all I use is the shift key (if I'm feeling the pressure to capitalize), and spell check (if I care), but I want to pay a couple of hundred bucks for features! More! More!
Nice and clean, however. As a Mac user, I'm fondly recalling Classic. And, as somebody ditching the scorn that is Microsoft lock-in, Linux is going to be a hit on the desktop in the very near future.
This has been a public service announcement from the Grandparents are not Clueless Idiots Association...
Normal service is now being resumed... flame on...
Donald 'Duck' Dunn: We had a band powerful enough to turn goat piss into gasoline.
My grandmas are dead, you insensitive clod!
Troll anarchy should rule Slashdot!
you know, there's something about the phrase "unleashed upon grandma"...
kinda makes me wonder how CmdrTaco feels about his grandmother.
(seriously)
for grandma: a nice pretty "Do ..." button on it, and all the different 'actions' that can be 'done' with a computer, sitting there for grandma, with fancy big letters and nice colors, on most of the screen.
..." <>>> "Write a ..." [e-mail/letter/note] ..." >> "Watch a movie..." [on Internet / DVD] ..." >> "Add an Address ..." [to your private book / to your web address book]
"Do
"Do
"Do
what would your shell idea for grandma require?
; -- the corruption of government starts with its secrets. a truly free people keep no secrets. --
Yup, I introduced my grandma to spam, viruses, a trojan horse that allowed some kid to pop up gay porn on her screen and open and shut her CD tray, a continuously quitting internet connection, and finally, the Blue Screen of Death... Windows eventually gave my grandma a heart attack.
How do you sleep at night, Bill Gates? Oh, yeah, that's right. On a bed of money.
But then again, now that Grandma's dead, so do I. Thanks, Bill! Now I know why everyone buys your stuff!
I'm not normally an irrational zealous dickhead, but I figure "When in Rome..."
YOUR FACE!
"I for one welcome our new septegenarian overlords!"
---
"I did nothing. I did absolutely nothing and it was everything that I thought it could be."
Its my job to make sure that all the people I know have their videos set to the correct time, the TV is tuned, the remote control works and the computer prints, e-mails and connects to the "interweb"
They don't care what "operating system" they use, they can barely pronounce "operating system" without strange facial contortions. All they want is e-mail, instant messaging, printing, document writing and something that makes them look cool with all the other "oldies" that are "getting into it".
"Can I still get my Hotmail on Linux?""Of course."
"How does that work then?"
"Hold on. Right. You click on this picture of an envelope with Hotmail written underneath. See?"
It doesn't matter if Open Office has "a squirrely install" - so does Microsoft Office. Grandma isn't the one installing the software, or setting it up. Heck, Grandma keeps all her documents in one directory!
"So what about those virus things?"
"Its OK. They won't affect you"
"Why is that?"
"They are just for Microsoft. There isn't any Microsoft on here"
I'll certainly agree about the world of spyware, virus updates, daily patches, scandisk. Gives me a headache, gives Grandma a colonic!
At the end of the day as long as the user has piece of mind and can do everything they want to do, what does it matter which OS, desktop or colour scheme they use? After all, their friendly neighbourhood systems administrator is the one who has created the work environment in exactly they way Grandma feels happy with.
Microsoft Bob.......
bad thoughts...
"Hmm. I am to metaphor cheese as metaphor cheese is to transitive verb crackers!"
...presenting windows 3.11 for Linux.
Am I right?
Now all we need is something Aunt Tillie can do...
If it works in theory, try something else in practice.
1. She's 80, let them leave the PC on, ya hippy.
2. The article clearly states about Linux for Grandma, thus the parent of your post fully complies with. It does what their Grandma needs. Works for them, sorry they don't care about your uber hacker grandma.
and he could just get her an iBook. Sheesh. Yeah, yeah, I know, at this point I get modded as flamebait.
*twitch*
What if my Grandma had been, oh, let's say Grace Hopper?
It was a joke! When you give me that look it was a joke.
Call it whatever you want, "spatial file management," a "drastic improvement to the Nautilus file manager," or a "groundbreaking feature," but when it comes down to it I don't want my computer acting like a Windows 95 box running Explorer.exe. The reason why the "browsing" method of file management became so popular after "spatial" is because it' s BETTER. Try the new Gnome 2.6, it's the same old junk wrapped up with a shiny new catchphrase. I think I'll do some "spatial organization" of my Gnome 2.6 Linux box; a couple hundred megs worth of spatial organization straight into /dev/null.
I converted my own grandmother to linux, before all this.
... I'm sure the box is insanely insecure, but it really doesn't matter.
I made scripts for EVERYTHING to do it, though.
EVERYTHING you could POSSIBLY DO is a shortcut on the desktop. Scripts for shutdown, etc, all of that.
I also made it 'automatic logon'
I more or less forced my family into the posititon of working on a FreeBSD workstation running Gnome. My sister, who has recently turned 18 has adapted amazingly well, as has my mother. My dad couldn't really use a windows computer, so i guess he's the "control" group saying it is equally has difficult. I took back my 1.2Ghz Celeron w/ 1GB of RAM because they were not actually /doing/ anything and I needed my server back. Now all parties are well served. I login via SSH w/ forwared X11 via my iBook G4 and do what I need to do on the FreeBSD machine. They use it physically.
GNOME is "good enough" the way it is. Personally, I wouldn't attempt to make my grandparnts change. My grandpa is 91 and my grandma is 81. They don't really use their computer much, but can do what they do (email and that's about it). For christs sake, they're old enough, you know? why make them suffer more over so trivial an issue?
To see if you can avoid throttling her in sheer frustration?
Free Firefox news reader.
No no no that's KDE. Gnome is just whack.
Man, talk about overkill! Who does this guy think he is, Captain Nemo?
Wouldn't it be easier just to get her some floor wax and some rumba lessons??
Soylent Green is peoplicious!
Several Linux vendors (Cobind,Morphix to name two) have a simple xfce interface with only a couple buttons for..a im
Firefox
Thunderbird
Abiword
Gnumeric
G
What else does Granny Need?
K.I.S.S.
AC
I for one welcome our new Grandma overlords.
... here's why. Antivirus software is a patch that protects vulnerable proprietary software from exploits. Antivirus companies make their living from the long delay between problems being identified in commercial closed-source software and those problems being fixed by the vendor. Open-source software can be patched locally, in the existing source -- hence a company that would make anti-exploit software for, say, LookOut would instead make patches for Ximian. Whether that is a business model that works remains to be seen.
Rarely do I come across UIs on the mac that are confusing. Grammas everywhere should be so lucky.
Unless of course, YOU DON'T LOVE YOUR GRAMMA!!!
what your grandma needs is for her windows to burst into flames when she closes them.
K.
To limit the user experience to a few buttons is a very bad idea. Users should be exposed to as many useful applications and ideas as possible, so they can learn and grow as a human being. This is the idea of the Personal Computer, to give the end user the freedom and control over their experience.
You are just making it a T.V.
When people start seeing Linux as easier to deal with than Windows, Microsoft has a problem...
It is difficult to explain the behavior of the spatial Nautilus without the reader trying it.
If you cannot easily put the functionality into words, then how are you going to explain it to Grandma? Well, it may work, but a sentence like that is a giant red flag that says something's not quite right here.
We have all seen these stories of how people have drug-pushed helpless newbies like 3 yr olds and grandmas how to use Linux and how they love it. The last step is training grandma to give the anti-MS smackdown sermon to her Windows friends at the old folks home...
Why is Grandma using Linux a better idea than Grandma using Windows? It's not like she's going to be hosting a web server and organizing her cooking recipes in an Oracle database. I think Windows in its current state is much easier to use, and is the most straightforward to learn for ol' Granny. Therefore, it should be the OS of her choice. 2nd place would go to OSX. If you want to make Linux popular, don't introduce it to the largest computing minority first.
P.S. This is what part of the alphabet would look like if Q and R were eliminated.
I recently gave my mother a computer loaded with Slackware 9 using the KDE that came with the install. The computer is an hold HP vectra I purchased from the place that I work. It has an Intel PIII 450 with 512 megabytes or ram. I think it is enough like windows with the point and click that she will not have too much of a problem. My father uses it as well but he has a much faster computer in his home office that is connected to the internet. They have had it for two weeks now and no calls for tech support yet. My is 50 and my father is 65.
I like Linux and all, but looking at spacial Nautilus reminds me of the biggest problem with the Linux world is- it replicates, but doesn't innovate.
Spacial Nautilus just makes Gnome that much more like pre-OS X Mac OS. The new features they're advertising have been around since System 7. I like the changes, and I'll probably take advantage of them when using Gnome, but they aren't anything new.
To get back on topic, even with these "new" features, Linux is still much more complicated than Grandma can probably handle. Just because you like Linux and understand it doesn't mean that it's the right choice for Grandma. Think, why do you use Linux? Are any of those reason anything that you honestly think that Grandma cares about?
I remember when we first got my Grandfather a computer. We got an old Mac Plus running System 6.0.8 and set him up with a word processor and a printer. After a while we upgraded him to a IIsi. Then we got him a modem and put him on AOL. By the time he died he was on his fourth computer- a G4, and one of the better models at the time.
The point is that he learned slowly, but eventually got the hang of it. System 6 was a perfect place to start him at because it was simple, and let him adjust slowly to more modern technology. If I would have set him up with a modern OS I don't think he would have ever progressed past the word processing stage.
Sun did studies like the ones you are referring to and contributed the results back into Gnome. Sure enough, I found a reference to this on the Gnome.org HIG website.
Your original comment makes it appear that you have not used a recent version of Gnome (2.4 or 2.6) because it that project a very prominent example of how free software can have a focus on usability and still provide useful applications. You really ought to try it out if you haven't lately.
501 Not Implemented
You know. This isn't such a bad idea.
It simply is not hard to set stuff like this up. Just, nobody has wanted to write this code before. Too many geeks don't think about usability of a GUI.
I'm part of that. I think about usability, but of a CLI. (Or when I am working, of a web form, which almost counts).
eMac = $799.
Used CRT iMac that will run Panther well = $300.
The subject here is a typical variation on the "is Linux ready for Joe Budweiser" question. But am I the only one who would rather give my grandparents a machine that's designed around a metaphor they can understand (digital hub), that figures out the logical thing to do when they plug in a camera or put in a DVD, that keeps its software current automagically, and that they can pretty much set up and maintain themselves?
I used to be a huge supporter of promoting Linux to this kind of mainstream user base. But with solid Apple machines now genuinely affordable and with OS X and iLife as good as they are, it seems counterintuitive to foist Linux onto the non-technical unless you really can't pony up the cash for a basic, used, G3 Macintosh that will probably last forever.
Dunno. Maybe it's just me.
With all due respect, you're 48. You may be a grandmother, but there's no way (I sincerly hope) that your grandchild(ren) are old enough to build you a computer and be this bent on forcing Linux on you. Those that do have granchildren of that age aren't likely to have nearly the level of technical expertise that people from your age group. My pop's older than you, and uses PGP, open GPG, and absurdly complicated VB scripting regularly, but his mother would be greatly helped by this kind of GUI.
I thought the article to be very insightful/interesting, as it would greatly simplify my grandmother's life.
Another perfect example of sexism/agism - the father is competant but the grandmother is not according to you!
Obviously some people who are sixty have engineering degrees.... they got them when they were young. So what? Today's youth will eventually be old, but nobody expects them to magically become bad at computers.
It is genuinely hard to learn a skill like this when you're older. That doesn't mean it's impossible, or that some people don't do it, but it does mean it takes more work, and that strategies are worth it. It means you go more slowly.
There's been quite a buzz on Slashdot lately wrt open source and usability. Making a computer easy to use for "Grandma" (an insulting label for non-Slashdorks) isn't about limiting the number of icons on the desktop, or choosing the right text labels that these "Grandmas" of the world will understand. The slashdot communal mind needs to understand that usable software isn't just about adding a shiney coating to the outside--usable software has to be designed that way from the very beginning, and is a huge undertaking!
If you're interested in usable software, consider checking out these books: "The Inmates are Running the Asylum" by Alan Cooper, and Designing from Both Sides of the Screen by Ellen Isaacs and Alan Walendowski.
Personally, I hope that the recent trend on slashdot to talk about usability is more than just a fad and the open source world is finally starting to come around. These books are good starting points.
I've played with Nautilus, and after reading this artical I'm realizing why I quickly got frustrated with it.
After describing the "one window per folder" idea, the author quickly shows how to dive into windows using the middle mouse button (on mine it's a hard to click roller ball) which closes the parent after diving into the child folder. You can also hold down the shift key to do it. So you can, in effect just make it work like a browser...
Q. Why not just use a browser then?
A. Because Spactial will keep the location of the window at the same place it was the last time you used it.
Q. Why would I want that? I want windows to open in the same place I'm using them now!
Another feature I don't understand.
"Network resources are now accessed conveniently."
I find konqueror's method pretty convenient. If I go to a file... There it is! If I go to a web page... There it is! If I go to a site that I have ssh keys for... There it is! If I go to an ftp site... There it is!
Explorer is pretty much the same way. Well except for ssh.
I'm happy that gnome is more stable and faster etc. But I really don't get the spatial. Why is it important, or even desired?
Is this a fucking joke? A shiny new Nautilus comes out, and its most original user interaction "advancement" is the introduction of the DOUBLE-MIDDLE-CLICK?!
Fuck the system? Nah, you might catch something.
It's just statistics. What is the percentage of women on slashdot? What is the average age? Prejudice is popular because it works.
Every last one of my grandparents was retired or deceased before the Apple ][e was released. I know dozens and have helped to train a half dozen of their peers, and have yet to meet a single one that wouldn't benefit from a simplification and increased task-oriention of their computer systems.
Sex doesn't enter into it.
Agism, however, is more than justified in this case. It is shockingly naive to assume that the majority of those who retired before the computer revolution have enough training and expertise that they would benefit from having the burden of systems administration dumped upon them.
Hooray, they have re-invented Mac OS 7's spatial finder. And guess what: I've been explaining to users how to navigate Mac OS since 1995, and leaving everyting on the desktop only works if a) you don't mind a cluttered desktop (many users do) and b) you have a large enough monitor.
And there are plenty of surprises. (Not sure if Nautilus copies this or not, but this is what OS 7-9 did.) Double-click on the hard drive (or your home folder, or whatever) and put it in list/details view. Double-click on a folder--say, Documents. Go back to the parent window. Click the flippy triangle or plus sign or whatever next to Documents. Watch the "Documents" window close itself. Start explaining "spatial" to the user. Prepare for blank stares.
Face it: computers are complex devices that can perform a multitude of functions. Unless you are going to do only the most basic things (for example, only run a word processor and always save all your docs to the same folder) it will always be complex.
Dear Slashdot: next time you want to mess with the site, add a rich-text editor for comments.
My dad is nearing 60 now, and he's dealt with computers for almost 40 years. He programmed in college. He was a Unix sysadmin for AT&T. And yet he still calls up every weekend with some idiotic question about his Win98 box. I love my dad, but sometimes I just want to scream, "You've done this for longer than I've been alive! You know better than I do!". Maybe I should switch him over to linux or BSD. He might feel more at home there :-\
...blondes are offended that people equate being a a blonde with having a low level of intelligence and/or a high level of 'ditzyness'.
Stereotypes exist for a reason and there is usually at least a grain of truth to them, one man doesn't all of a sudden go 'I know, let's get everyone thinking that brunette women hate grocery shopping on tuesday afternoons! Tell all your friends'.
FACT: Your average 70+ year old woman does not know a lot of computers, if anything at all, in relation to other age/sex groups (I'm guessing most, if not all).
The grandparent was referring to grandmothers in general, it's not like he said, 'Here Mrs AC 48 Year Old grandmother, this is the kind of Gnome I think you would be better off with'. The more people realise that not everyone is throwing jokes directly at them because they are black/blonde/retarded the better. Women driver's anyone?
Abstract view of (some types of) feminism:
Woman: Excuse me, man in the street, we should all agree that the sky is green
Man in street: But the sky is blue!
Woman: But it should be green!
Man: Why?
Woman: Because me and my friends want it to be
Man: Look. The sky was blue millions of years ago. It is blue now. It will be blue for millions of years. You can pretend that the sky is green but no matter what happens it will always blue. Me and MY friends will carry on knowing that the sky is blue.
How long will it be until a computer magazine writer gets fired for writing 'Try and play Quake VII on anything less than a Gedeon XT and your frame rate will be slower than grandma at the supermarket checkout'?
Begging your pardon, but I would respectfully have to disagree. Equating being a grandmother to a low level of technical incompetence has its basis in statistics. Even if one were simply forming hypotheses, one could easilly assume that the older one is, the less technically oriented this person is LIKELY to be. Perhaps not inherently because of age itself, but because of the kind of learning experiences these various groups of people have had.
It's all a matter of making learned guesses and rationalizing ones way through the given information. Not all grandmothers are old. Most seniors have little to no technical training. I can't say for certain whether one becomes harder to train the older one gets.
As for the statement on discrimination: while I certainly disagree with discrimination in any form, I don't see it happening here or in the article. Discrimination is a directed action against representatives of a group. When software developers develop or talk about designing software for grandmothers, they are simply making assumptions based on numbers. If one were to turn down a job applicant for a technical job, for instance, for simply being a grandmother, then THAT is discrimination.
I would say Linux is great for programmers and geeks, but also for complete neophytes who need to do very little with their computer; email, browsing, word processor, etc.
However I felt deeply alienated trying to use it myself. It had all this great bundled stuff, but I struggled to customize anything, save the wallpaper. Installing programs lead to aggravating dependency-something-or-others and it would take hours to do something that would take seconds in Windows.
However once it's all setup I'm sure it would be great, especially for grandma. I just don't have that kind of patience for headaches.
Corporations: your universal scapegoat for all society's ills.
Grandma inadvertently starts a flame war by asking "Why does it ask me No or Yes instead of Yes or No? Wouldn't it make more sense the other way around?"
the day Aunt Tilly learns to set up her printer with CUPS.
Steve
Folks, it wouldn't hurt to learn a bit of history. Don't re-invent the wheel.
IBM's OS/2 WorkPlace Shell (WPS) has been using the spatial browser method for many, many years.
Open up a folder anywhere, one window for one folder. It retains it's size and position from the last time you closed it, and yes, even scroll bar position and view (different views are possible).
SHIFT+double-click to close the parent while opening up the child, and just right-click to bring up the menu to open the parent.
Sound familiar?
The features go on and on...and by the way, here's one thing that Nautilus doesn't have yet. The concept of a "Workspace".
Designate a folder as a Workspace in OS/2 WPS, and next time you open it, a complete environment will be restored. All open applications, all documents, any web browser links, etc. Close the folder, and everything closes up shop automatically.
Almost every home PC I see where kids are not in picture still has the default icons on the desktop. You know, like 5 Dell icons that they never use but don't delete because they don't understand the difference between deleting an icon and deleting/removing an applicatoin. That and you end up seeing a dozen verisons of AOL;AOL 6, AOL 7, AOL 8 etc.
They only buy new PC's because a) things are so screwed up and the PC(Windows) doesn't work anymore or b) at work they got a new PC and broadband and they finally realize their Pentium 233 is out of date.
Like I said add kids in the picture and all I've said goes out the window. But for empty nesters and older people without children its mostly like I stated above. Just like the parent stated they are not likely to want new software once they have their basic needs met. This of course can be done with a good Linux distro. I'm obviously not saying its for everyone, but considering many home users just know 2 or 3 programs at most(one of them being Freecell) using Linux for such basic tasks is very much a realistic option. The problems Linux has still lies with slight more advanced users who want to use programs from work, play recent games, actually browse at the computer store, etc. This group will still have tons of problems with Linux.
If you wanna get rich, you know that payback is a bitch
You know? I was wondering when an "average user"(1) would show up. Just between you and me, I would be insulted by all the "Joe user". "Aunt Tillie", etc, etc, because in all of them the user ends up looking like a fool. I don't know how anyone stands it. With advocates like those who needs enemies?
(1) No such thing.
If you mod this up, you're sadder than I thought.
If you mod this down, you've no sense of humour.
And your comments make it appear that you aren't reading my comments properly. Please explain exactly when popular Gnome applications receive ongoing usability testing (which consists of the passive observation of people using the software within the experimental circumstances I have previously described).
Perhaps *you* aren't reading your own comments properly. You said usability testing wasn't being done, I showed you that indeed it was. So now you twist your original comment and pretend you were talking about ongoing usability testing. I get the distinct impression that you will continue arguing this point by adding new definitions and specifications as to what defines 'usablilty testing' so that you can continue to make your point. I know, I know, you're never wrong...
If your point is "free software projects don't do ongoing useability testing" that is seemingly correct, but that is a far cry from "Free software lacks usability testing" which was the title of your original post and a good summary of your original argument. The fact is that Gnome has done this type of testing and come up with a set of guidelines that they adhere to pretty closely.
Does this mean that they couldn't benefit from more usability testing? I'm not saying that... they probably could, and I imagine they will. But in the meantime the good folks at Gnome have proven than free software can produce a desktop with usability as a primary focus and that free software isn't "ill-equipped to do anything even approaching proper usability testing."
501 Not Implemented
> And when in hell are you going to give her some grandkids?
There's only one way you can give your grandma grandkids and that's illegal in most parts of the world. Talk about an Oedipus.Complex. Yuck!
you'd think she'd be able to figure it out after all that cooking.
African Americans are statistically less intelligent than other people. You agree?
People accept different traits and properties of races all the time when they talk about cats and dogs. But people have to be the same for political reasons...
The GNOME developers so a very good job at creating a consistant, elegant desktop. I wish that they would give the developer documentation at least a quarter the effort they give the HIG. Hell, I wish that they would consistently use their CORBA-like object system.
People love to chat up how their grandma "uses Linux." Barring extremely rare exceptions, this usually means some poor grandmother had her grandson go in, install Linux, set everything up in a particular way, then told her grandma to have at it.
The problem with this is that, at most, her grandma will send/receive e-mail and surf the web, maybe occasionally playing music. Or scanning something. The reason this is a problem is that many people try to use this as an example of the ease-of-use of Linux, but there are two issues:
1.) You had to set everything up for them in a particular way to hide the underlying system.
2.) Grandmas don't typically install/uninstall things, buy new hardware or software, upgrade their drivers, etc. etc.
Basically, when someone says Linux is easy enough that their grandma uses it, they mean that Linux desktops can send and receive e-mail and browse the web. Uh...congratulations? Grandmas are not a litmus test for usability. Average users are.
Should read:
2.) Grandmas don't typically install/uninstall things, buy new hardware or software, upgrade their drivers, etc. etc. This means that of course Linux will seem easy to use, because they're not really doing anything much more than using it as a glorified web kiosk. Average users will do much more and expect things to actually work the first time through, like they're used to on Windows (and yes, the majority of the time it is a one-time thing on Windows).
All your grandma does at most is surf the web and do some text processing, etc.
The grandma test is not a good litmus test for usability because it completely disregards the average user, who will go out and buy new software, upgrade a printer, buy a new sound card, buy a DVD drive, etc.
you almost never get the "Ohh shiny new software! Must have it!" Most users here are running whatever they got with the computer and the only software they buy is usually to fill the void that the computer had in it. and yes this is at home. Most linux distros now have no void for most users. it has an office suite, a cgheckbook application, email... everything that the regular user would want and use...
What a lie! People are always clamoring for new software, be it the latest antivirus, or maybe they saw someone running the new iTunes, or maybe someone wants to play the Sims, etc.
What happens when someone wants to upgrade their hardware under Linux? How do they get drivers for the new printer they got that comes with a Windows driver CD? Hell, what happens when a security advisory comes out for the kernel and they need to upgrade it? Do they run "apt-get"? What do they do? In Windows, update will automatically download it and give you an "Install" button and a reboot. I don't trust newbies with an RPM-like system and never will.
This is just the tip of the iceberg in the usability problems for the average user, but then I'd be going off-topic. Let's just say Linux desktops today are designed to provide pretty screenshots for the distro box art, but when you actually grab the mouse to use the thing for a day...
I'm absolutely convinced that until the Linux desktop experiments actually implement binary installation APIs, in which someone can have a CD, stick it in, and an installer runs, then we'll be seeing more commercial software for Linux.
.NET or Cocoa--and you'd have commercial vendors like Adobe ready and willing.
Add in a unified, sane API for programming the damned thing--unlike this KDElibs/Gnomelibs/QT/GTK mess (in which you have to install TWO ENTIRE DESKTOP ENVIRONMENTS just to be able to run each other's apps)--and I'm talking something incredibly clean and innovative like
But, nope, we're too busy hacking in transparency (hello, 1999) and fighting over licensing issues as we bash "M$."
Linux actually has the ability to do such things as send and receive e-mail, in addition to letting you surf the web and even scan pictures.
These awe-inspiring abilities that no other desktop has been able to do for the past 20 years means Linux is somehow ready for the masses.
The Grandma Litmus Test(tm)--proving Linux can send/receive e-mail and download pictures since 1998. Woo-hoo!
Point: The average user is what counts if you want the movement to win, not grammie.
The GNOME people seem to be completely, totally, and utterly clueless with regard to GUI design. That the spatial nautilus concept is horrible is evident from merely reading the description. Window memory? Double-clicking the middle button?? Holding shift while double-middle-clicking? What the hell were they thinking?
This is not an intuitive interface, it's just a bad interface. It is another case where some feature got implemented simply because the developer thought it would be cool or whatever. If it takes a proficient user a WEEK to adjust to it, then it means that it is bad.
I think GNOME developers better stick to copying features from Windows or MacOS because they do not have the slightest clue with regard to interface design. This is not a troll, just an observation that GNOME is heading in a completely wrong direction.
" My grandma's a command line hacker."
Ha! Command lines are for sissies and girly-men.
I've been I/Oing via toggle switches and flashing lights for over 40 years now and I like it that way!
Around 1998, my Grandpa, who was in his early eighties, increasingly considered purchasing a computer and learning how to use the Internet.
;)
:)
:)
Grandma was reluctant at first, because of the thought of having such a large thing in their (not so big) home didn't appeal to her, but eventually she came around and agreed. Not much later, she started to appreciate the fun and knowledge it was bringing him.
I still remember receiving a snail mail from him containing a letter, produced with his inkjet printer, explaining how he was gradually learning, being somewhat satisfied yet modest about his progress. But I could definitely read his hidden pride between the lines, in spite of a few typos.
I remembered thinking "This is cool, he's learning quickly, although it might take a while before I can get him to use email". In fact, he got the hang of sending an receiving email fairly independently in less than a year, and it eventually became a fairly common activity for him.
In the end of december 1999, I received an email from him, inviting all of the family to the traditional New Year's Day Reunion at my grandparent's place. We attended that day, but it turned out not being the joyous and optimistic occasion it was supposed to be: my dear Grandpa had passed away in the early morning of January 1st, 2000. One would almost think that the symbolism in such a date would be too much just to be considered coincedence...
It was (understandably) too painful for Grandma to keep the computer at her house, so she gave it to my aunt.
In spite of the fact that Grandpa lived only a few hours short of seeing the dawn of the New Millenium, he still ended up having experienced the Internet, having participated in it, and having shared the dreams of the many wonderful things to come. For that, I am greatful.
This story may not be entirely on-topic, but I just wanted to share it with you. I would gladly have introduced Linux to Grandpa eventually. And I'm sure he would have been very interested and eager to take up the challenge of learning it.
Please let this be a positive example for anyone thinking that he or she may be "too old" to pick up computing and emailing: You're NEVER too old to learn!
Rest in Peace, Opa.
"Oooh, does that mean we get to kick some puffy white mad zionist butt?"
have you used the new nautilus yet?
if so, how could you describe it to someone who always turned off opening of a new window in explorer?
I am very interested in gnome 2.6, so any feedback you can personally give me would be very insightful.
mmm kernel 2.6, gnome 2.6 mmmm taaastey
no, 38 year old grandmas are whack!
This whole lame, boring thread is whack.
next story please...
... just why is everyone so eager to accept the idea that only a techinically incompetent individual would want something simple?
For that matter, who's to say the even techinically incompetent individuals may not want things simplified? I work with techinical incompetents (of diverse ages) who seem to have a definite preference for keeping things as complicated as they possibly can...
A desire, preference, or choice for simplicity over complexity is not necesarily an indicator of technical competence or lack thereof.
Competence and a desire for simplicity are unrelated functions of the human mechanism.
There even some who believe that simplicity is Good, and the ability to make things simple is an inidcator of technical compentence.
The whole "it's statistics" excuse for stereo-typing is a) old and tired (it was already worn out the the 70's, ferchrisesake), and b) bullshit.
Of course, on the other hand there are the L33t tech freaks who are afraid that if they are subjected to something simple it will fry the Acme Complexity Generation(tm) implants they so recently spent the big bux on...
"The Internet is made of cats."
What the fuck is with "fsck"? Am I the only one who pronounces fsck "fuhsck"?
Nope, I pronounce it that way, too.
> African Americans are statistically less intelligent than other people. You agree?
No. They're called negroes.
They're generally/statistically less intelligent than all other human genotypes, regardless if they happen to live in either of the American continents or elsewhere.
Have you heard of KDE's KIOSK mode? The *huge* advantage KDE has over GNOME is that nearly all of KDE can be turned off by the person who installs the system (usually not the grandma)
I'm sorry, but the stock KDE and GNOME are not grandma-ready. Neither are stock WindowsXP or MacOSX. Or stock classic-MacOS.
Apple's old AtEase program and KDE's KIOSK mode solve that however.
... even scan pictures.
:P
No. Not if you use e.g. the very common scanner I bought from the Big Linux-friendly Company called HP, that dominates the SOHO scanner market.
I don't even dare to think about how much less than nothing that I would have been able to use a scanner in Linux/SANE if I had bought one from another, less Linux-friendly company...
You all still got grandma's.
Mine died just a few weeks ago. Never in her life touched a computer, same as my granddad (rip).
I wouldn't ever have put linux in front of them, or any other system. There was not a thing they'd want to do they couldn't do with a telephone, pen, paper, bicycle and post-office. And for gossip, the local card club was plenty enough, no need for the www either...
I think, therefore I am...I think.
Grandmas don't typically install/uninstall things, buy new hardware or software, upgrade their drivers, but when they do their IT staff (children or grandchildren) take care of it. It would be assinine to expect everyone in the world to become amateur sysadmins, most people just want to use their computer not fiddle with it.
Linux provides a rock solid, easy to use system to check e-mail, surf the web, write letters or balance the check book. If major changes in functionality are needed, then call in the IT support (grandkids, etc.). Many issues can be handled remotely via SSH.
OS X is another low maintenance option.
Beta is broken and the link to classic doesn't work. Stop wasting our time or there won't be anybody left here.
In 20 years time you'll be lucky if we've got as far as Perl 8...
Sorry for the typo! I do realize, of course, that Panther is not officially supported on the beige G3.
Darn codenames. I guess I should use 10.2, 10.3, etc.
Constitutionally Correct
I've been able to get my wife varying amounts of usability with 3 different systems.
Firstly while she was Honorary Secretary for a sports club, I partialy got her up-to-speed on wordprocessing and vector graphics with AmigaOS3.1 mostly.
More recently, after I got her conversant with web browsing on Debian PPC with the KDE desktop - I created her own account there.
After much trouble with the lack of graphics quality on an ancient PCI Graphics card equipped Win CE box, I talked her into acquiring a base-level eMac which she's using to web-browse, download (and edit) digital photos, and printout hardcopy photos. I want to upgrade that Mac's memory and replace the mouse with a two-button job though she likes the appearance of the standard eMac Mouse!
More recently (yesterday) I've been trying to get her to understand the difference between Googling via text-terms, and via picture-names. My wife has painted in oils for the last three years, and I'm encouraging her to become more proficient in using the web for reference & communications.
.
(David Bowman, EVA near HUGE Monolithic Win-PC in orbit around Jupiter) "My God - its full of Malware!"
As it has LONG been "done" on AmigaOS . . .
More recent versions allowed the Parent Windows to close by holding down the RH Amiga key!
What I hadn't found on a similar system (like the Mac) was the possibility to 'Snapshot' the position of the folders to keep them where you position them. Actually, on AmigaOS Folders are called Drawers. . . but in real life Folders and Files are often stored in Drawers.
.
(David Bowman, EVA near HUGE Monolithic Win-PC in orbit around Jupiter) "My God - its full of Malware!"
Funny but it only took a half hour for a friend to reload from scratch her system and with no assistance from me except the 5 minute phone call. Amazing what a Ghost boot CD can do! I always make a image for anyone that I helped setup, because sooner or later they will do something to the system, so 5 minute call, tell them to put the 'magic' cd in and whalaa they are back in business in half hour.