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A Mouse With Two Mothers

jabberjaw writes "Both the BBC and Nature are reporting that scientists at Tokyo University of Agriculture have used two sets of chromosomes belonging to a female mouse to create what are essentially fatherless mice. The process by which this was accomplished (parthenogenesis) does not naturally occur in mammals. The mouse used lacked a gene known as H19 which in turn activated the Igf2 which allowed this process to occur."

413 comments

  1. Good News, Really by mfh · · Score: 5, Interesting

    All jokes aside (as I am sure many "two daddy trailerpark" jokes are immanent) but this is indeed quite an advancement in biotech, because we may see future developments arrive in the development of cloning endangered species back from the brink of extinction; now species threatened from a lack of suitable mates, could be quite possibly saved, with the proper funding. The hard part would be digging deeper gene pools, enabling a true future for endangered species (although, I guess that's next week on /., right CmdrTaco?). Also, I wonder if it's possible to grow offspring with only two male subjects.

    --
    The dangers of knowledge trigger emotional distress in human beings.
    1. Re:Good News, Really by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Funny

      The dinosaurs are in large part not present to disagree with you.

    2. Re:Good News, Really by tomstdenis · · Score: 1, Funny

      Shut up you anti-life hate monger!

      The best way to save the world is to meddle in all affairs because us few arrogant people with paper signs and peta-stickers know best! ;-)

      Yes that was sarcasm. The point is meddling is what cause these "problems" in the first place. Why not just stop meddling?

      Of course that's too obvious. Must take immediate and knee-jerk reaction to all of lifes problems.

      --
      Someday, I'll have a real sig.
    3. Re:Good News, Really by Thanatiel · · Score: 2, Insightful

      If they are on the brink of extinction, maybe it's there time to go...
      Ya ya I know, "But they wouldn't be on the brink of extinction if it weren't for man," What kind of an effect would increasing a species numbers in a particular area have on local ecosystems?


      Right.

      When someone is ill, it's his time to go too. No need to cure anyone.

      When uneducated/greedy/stupid people will have destroyed all animals and vegetables with all the expected side-effects, humans will be next.

      But who cares ? It will be their time to go too ...

      Insightful indeed ...

      sigh
      --
      Irrelevant news and morons using moderation to mod down what they disagree on. 2018 resolution: so long.
    4. Re:Good News, Really by operagost · · Score: 1

      Far more species have died out from natural disasters, inability to adapt to environmental changes, or other natural factors than have been eliminated by man.

      --

      Gamingmuseum.com: Give your 3D accelerator a rest.
    5. Re:Good News, Really by BlowChunx · · Score: 1

      The problem is not the number of extinctions (man, does that sound bad...), it's the rate at which they are occurring (d extinction/dt).

    6. Re:Good News, Really by b-baggins · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Notify me when we reach the level of the big Cambrain die-offs. Until then man is just a pale imitator of nature.

      --
      You can tell a great deal about the character of a man by observing those who hate him.
    7. Re:Good News, Really by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      What is your point? That it is ok for man to keep killing off species as long as we don't break any records?

    8. Re:Good News, Really by agurkan · · Score: 1

      well, supposedly the threat is from lack of a male as you are using two females in this procedure. the problem is, this procedure will also produce a female, no?

      --
      ato
    9. Re:Good News, Really by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Just give some of the animals some FROG DNA and they will reproduce!

    10. Re:Good News, Really by Syrrh · · Score: 1

      If a species is so drastically reduced that it has NO males left, then yes, it's time for extinction. No amount of hot lesbian action is going to allow them to perpetuate without having human intervention every single time. From there, what's the point? We're not "saving" anything, we're just churning out zombies while the gene pool deteriorates to nothing. Once they're so inbred and mutated that they can't survive on their own anymore, should we develop artificial life-support systems to prop them up even longer?

    11. Re:Good News, Really by Thanatiel · · Score: 1

      Pale imitator ? You are looking at the past. Try to forsee the future. If you cannot, just wait. Belive me : Nature is outdated (except, maybe, in the Astral Disaster domain)

      You should know that humans would not stand against a Major Natural Disaster either. (Somehow, we are a kind of major natural disater, and we will probably not stand against us either.)

      The big difference is that the way "we" destroy everything is more or less like shooting ourselve in the foot. We are pratically begging for a disaster.
      With the right snowball effect, our whish will be granted.

      --
      Irrelevant news and morons using moderation to mod down what they disagree on. 2018 resolution: so long.
    12. Re:Good News, Really by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Can someone please explain why anyone feels it is a "good" thing to save species that obviously can't adapt to the present.

      There's a reason species are endangered. They're ill equiped to survive.

  2. But... by the_gh0st · · Score: 5, Funny

    is it still considered a bastard?

    --
    "People demand freedom of speech to make up for the freedom of thought which they avoid." - Soren Aabye Kierkegaard
    1. Re:But... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

      A bastard child has nothing to do with not having a father. A bastard is one who's birth is illegitimate - in other words out of wedlock. There is not indication that Gay marraige is not allowed in the animal kingdom.

    2. Re:But... by the_gh0st · · Score: 0

      I was using it as a noun which happens to mean: the illegitimate offspring of unmarried parents. Perhaps I can use it like this: you are a bastard in this sentence it would mean: (obscene) insulting terms of address for people who are stupid or irritating or ridiculous. But that's just my 2 cents

      --
      "People demand freedom of speech to make up for the freedom of thought which they avoid." - Soren Aabye Kierkegaard
    3. Re:But... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Then what is your joke?

  3. it must be asked... by flynt · · Score: 5, Funny

    Who's your daddy???

    1. Re:it must be asked... by SpaceLifeForm · · Score: 0
      Clue for idiot mod: It's a joke. You never have heard of Mickey Mouse have you?

      Note to mods: If you don't get it, don't moderate.

      --
      You are being MICROattacked, from various angles, in a SOFT manner.
    2. Re:it must be asked... by archen · · Score: 1

      Mrs Cartmen.

      Yikes...

    3. Re:it must be asked... by martyn+s · · Score: 0, Redundant

      Clue for idiot: there's no "NOT FUNNY" mod. So you were modded offtopic instead.

    4. Re:it must be asked... by Xaroth · · Score: 1

      MOMMY!!!

      Er... wait. Something's not quite right there.

  4. At BBC too by TheFairElf · · Score: 5, Informative
    Same story at BBC

    So does this mean we men have no use anymore?

    1. Re:At BBC too by Monsieur+Canard · · Score: 2, Funny

      So does this mean we men have no use anymore?

      Besides killing spiders and hooking up the VCR you mean?

      --
      He took a duck to the face at 250 knots.
    2. Re:At BBC too by Kludge · · Score: 1

      I'm guessing that all the offspring must be female too -- no X chromosome. So if you want a son, you'll have to use a male. But I suppose you don't need male offspring any more anyway, as the females can reproduce themselves. :)

    3. Re:At BBC too by meringuoid · · Score: 1
      So does this mean we men have no use anymore?

      "In a thousand years, there will be no men and women - just wankers, and that's fine by me..."
      -- Mark Renton, Trainspotting

      --
      Real Daleks don't climb stairs - they level the building.
    4. Re:At BBC too by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      This impiles there was a need for us in the first place.

    5. Re:At BBC too by Zog+The+Undeniable · · Score: 1

      Of course - women can't whistle properly.

      --
      When I am king, you will be first against the wall.
    6. Re:At BBC too by affreca101 · · Score: 0, Flamebait

      Not unless us women are seriously shortsighted. As troublesome as men can be, they are still much cheaper for baby production than artificial methods. Even feminist science fiction realizes that you get a static, fragile society if you get rid of men. At most we'll have a number of lesbians who are interested in raising a child genetically related to both mothers. I just the research isn't stamped out because of narrow minded conservatatives who are scared of lesbian families.

    7. Re:At BBC too by Tiram · · Score: 1

      And someone will still have to do the dishes.

      --
      The knuckles, the horrible knuckles!
      (I'm a girl, you know)
    8. Re:At BBC too by PalmerEldritch42 · · Score: 1
      In other news, the streets of downtown London were filled this morning with a bicycle-riding fish parade. But, sadly, an Irish potato-frying consortium jumped into the fray. Local Fish and Chips shops are screaming bloody murder.

      News at 11.

      --
      Ceci n'est pas une sig.

      :wq!

    9. Re:At BBC too by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Even feminist science fiction realizes that you get a static, fragile society if you get rid of men.

      Eh, sometimes realise. Though at times it seems there is, or was during its heydey of the late 80s, more "men bad, women good!" coming from men than women.

    10. Re:At BBC too by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Eh, sometimes realise. Though at times it seems there is, or was during its heydey of the late 80s, more "men bad, women good!" coming from men than women.

      Yeah, but that was just the men trying to appear to be "sensitive" because they thought it would improve their chances of getting laid.

    11. Re:At BBC too by Merkuri22 · · Score: 1

      So does this mean we men have no use anymore?

      Besides killing spiders and hooking up the VCR you mean?

      ERNT! Wrong. I do both of those already. Better find something else you guys are good for, quick! ;)

      (For those of you who didn't figure it out, I'm a woman.)

    12. Re:At BBC too by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Impregnating women.

    13. Re:At BBC too by Mad_Rain · · Score: 2, Informative

      As I understood it, the process of creating the mice was not practical for cloning - it took close to 500 attempts, and only 2 mouse pups survived. (In Vitro fertilization has better chances of working, I think). The purpose of this experiment was "nobody ever thought of doing this before, I wonder if we can do it?" and more practical applications are yet to come out of it.

      --
      "What do you think?" "I think 'What, do you think?!'"
    14. Re:At BBC too by Jennifer+E.+Elaan · · Score: 1

      Hey, I kill spiders and not just can I hook up VCR's, I occasionally repair them. Someone's got to do it. Beware the lesbian geek!

    15. Re:At BBC too by Monsieur+Canard · · Score: 1

      Lesbian geeks are not to be feared, just worshipped.

      I obviously didn't mean you or the poster above you - just, you know, those other women.

      --
      He took a duck to the face at 250 knots.
    16. Re:At BBC too by Merkuri22 · · Score: 1

      I'm assuming you meant no Y chromosome.

      XX are female
      XY are male
      YY never lives (don't ask me how it would happen besides artificially)

    17. Re:At BBC too by Merkuri22 · · Score: 1

      According to the article, one of the interesting things this might lead to is stem cell research. Apparently by using two females instead of one male and one female, working with the resulting stem cells will be less ethically questionable. Not sure why, though...

    18. Re:At BBC too by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Sorry, couldn't tell by looking at you.

    19. Re:At BBC too by Merkuri22 · · Score: 1

      Damnit, people STILL can't tell? Maybe if I part my hair on this side...

  5. Baby Jesus by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Funny

    "The process by which this was accomplished (parthenogenesis) does not naturally occur in mammals"

    What about baby Jesus.

    1. Re:Baby Jesus by polyp2000 · · Score: 3, Funny

      Indeed, if this rare occurrance could happen perchance, say 2004 years ago it truly would be a miricle birth. Maybe the lack off scientific understanding at that time would lead people to believe that the virgin mary had been impregnated by god.

      I didnt think that this was really possible at all but having shown that it is; that miracle of birth as written in the bible maybe isnt such a miracle at all just a freak occurance that happend after thousands of generations human habitation of the earth.

      If this were to happen again, would people believe that its just a rare and random parthenogenesis or would the world rise and aknowledge the second coming of the son of god?

      --
      Electronic Music Made Using Linux http://soundcloud.com/polyp
    2. Re:Baby Jesus by Hektor_Troy · · Score: 5, Interesting

      Well, if you believe that baby Jesus was born of a virgin, then you quite likely also believe that he is/was the son of God - divine intervention.

      Divine intervention is not natural.

      Hence baby Jesus is not proof that it does occur naturally.

      If it did occur naturally, baby Jesus' birth would not be a miracle, which would tend to discredit the claim he is the son of God.

      --
      We do not live in the 21st century. We live in the 20 second century.
    3. Re:Baby Jesus by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

      just a freak occurance that happend after thousands of generations human habitation of the earth.

      What, someone gets knocked up but doesn't admit it? That happens all the time.

      Oh, that everyone in the world for generations to come believes her story, yeah, that's a freak occurrance.

    4. Re:Baby Jesus by Monsieur+Canard · · Score: 1

      Yeah but ...

      Doesn't parthenogenesis typically produce females? ... off to re-read the DaVince Code and listen to Shriekback

      --
      He took a duck to the face at 250 knots.
    5. Re:Baby Jesus by Perdition · · Score: 5, Interesting

      Some called Tony Hawk doing the 900 a miracle.

      But then again, Tony's 900, as spectacular as it was, didn't fit over 100 pieces of specific predictive prophecy from several hundreds of years of writing, most several hundreds of years prior to the event. And, Tony's 900 didn't quite heal hundreds or feed thousands and deliver moral teachings or resurrect after a decent Roman crucifixion.
      But then again, there are those who think that the sun rising every morning is the result of an image broadcast into their brain by evil goverrnment agents while their bodies are actually asleep on the slab in the lab. They'll say that Tony's 900 will have sufficient artificial prophecy written about it in the near future to make it seem as if it was a predicted event, and they'll say that's it's just a matter of time before there's a Church of the Tony Hawk 900.
      You know, some people believe some whacky things.

      --
      Windows XP SP2 told me to install third-party software that prevents viruses and protects stability... I chose Ubuntu
    6. Re:Baby Jesus by radja · · Score: 0

      the milkman did it.

      --

      No one can understand the truth until he drinks of coffee's frothy goodness.
      --Sheikh Abd-Al-Kadir, 1587
    7. Re:Baby Jesus by ferralis · · Score: 1
      Guess this is where the "H" comes from? Jesus Haploid Christ, as he would have just one set of chromasomes...

      Sorry, old joke, I know, but couldn't resist...

      --
      Any generalization is a stupid one.
    8. Re:Baby Jesus by efatapo · · Score: 4, Informative

      Indeed, if this rare occurrance could happen perchance...I didnt think that this was really possible at all but having shown that it is...

      You probably didn't read the article, but hopefully I can explain why this isn't possible by chance in humans.

      First, they were only able to do this using a mutant immature mouse egg cell. Two genes had to be mutated in order to stop it from imprinting an egg transcriptome (basically, what genes are on). This also would seem to prevent, at least for the forseeable future, doing this in humans. It's hard to mutagenize humans, while it might be possible to turn off the gene using something like siRNA who knows if we could get human egg cells in that premature of a form

      The second, and much larger, problem is that they took genetic material from a second egg and injected it into the first. This is not going to happen naturally. Sperm has a special cellular mechanism that allows it to fuse with an egg. Eggs do not contain these cellular components and therefore would have a hard time (read: impossible) doing this in vivo.

      Basically, the process of parthenogenesis does not happen in mammals in vivo. Can we set up an artificial system to do it with humans, yes probably we can eventually. However setting up an in vitro situation has no implications for in vivo possibilities.

    9. Re:Baby Jesus by Conspiracy_Of_Doves · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Then again, maybe it is just a myth. Just like all the virgin births from pagan mythology (Krishna, Perseus, Heracles, Romulus, Dionysus, Attis...) that christianity gets many of its concepts from.

    10. Re:Baby Jesus by disntrstd · · Score: 0, Offtopic

      I have a more probable answer... It never happened!

    11. Re:Baby Jesus by srmalloy · · Score: 1
      Indeed, if this rare occurrance could happen perchance, say 2004 years ago it truly would be a miricle birth. Maybe the lack off scientific understanding at that time would lead people to believe that the virgin mary had been impregnated by god.
      Except that, lacking a 'Y' chromosome, any parthenogentic child of Mary's would have been female, not male -- which would have shut things down right there in the androcentric Judaic culture.
    12. Re:Baby Jesus by spakka · · Score: 0

      Jesus was a motherfucker. Literally.

    13. Re:Baby Jesus by operagost · · Score: 1

      That's the most brilliant analogy I've seen on Slashdot to date!

      --

      Gamingmuseum.com: Give your 3D accelerator a rest.
    14. Re:Baby Jesus by Viceice · · Score: 1

      Not likely. The result of parthenogenesis is always female. So unless Jesus was the daughter of God, the theory still needs work.

      --
      Sometimes I wish I was a plumber, then I'd know how to deal with other people's shit.
    15. Re:Baby Jesus by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Nor did the cause of such religious connontations become later the three crusades of cannabilistic slaughter where women and children were killed without mercy while begging to be spared. Yep, real nice religion you got there.

    16. Re:Baby Jesus by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Not possible by chance eh?

      Then we would all be green slime.
      Yah, our DNA never changed on its own.

      Why is that Jesus thing modded 'Funny' it isn't.
      It's probably accurate, but people can't tolerate religion mixing with science?

      Even more likely, Jesus was probably just a product of fooling around.

    17. Re:Baby Jesus by operagost · · Score: 1

      Well, it could be in that the virgin birth doesn't have any corroborating witnesses, like the crucifixion and resurrection do. It wouldn't be Christianity that lifted that myth, however - it would be Judaism. The virgin birth was foretold in the book of Isaiah.

      --

      Gamingmuseum.com: Give your 3D accelerator a rest.
    18. Re:Baby Jesus by operagost · · Score: 1
      Excellent point.

      Sorry, OT, but that reminds me of how remarkable the resurrection story is. It's unlikely the resurrection story was just made up, because only an idiot would have the first witnesses be women. A woman's testimony at that time in Judea, to put it bluntly, wasn't worth shit.

      --

      Gamingmuseum.com: Give your 3D accelerator a rest.
    19. Re:Baby Jesus by Conspiracy_Of_Doves · · Score: 2, Insightful

      corroborating witnesses

      Corroborating witnesses whose stories weren't written down for the first time until several decades after the events supposedly happened.

      By the way, there was no virgin birth prophecy. The word 'almah' in the original hebrew that was translated into 'virgin' just means 'young woman'.

    20. Re:Baby Jesus by BCGlorfindel · · Score: 1

      Nor did the cause of such religious connontations become later the three crusades of cannabilistic slaughter where women and children were killed without mercy while begging to be spared. Yep, real nice religion you got there.

      And I suppose by the same logic the idea of evolution is responsible for Hitler's pursuit of a super race. Crackpots will do evil things in the name of almost anything, that doesn't mean the cause they claim is responsible for their actions. Understatement:Cannablisitic slaughter, for example, is never condoned by the bible. In fact, if memory serves, Jesus teachings usually frowned on such practices.

    21. Re:Baby Jesus by HeghmoH · · Score: 1

      People in the middle of the Roman Empire weren't any dumber than we were. If we saw a woman get pregnant and she claimed to be a virgin, nobody would believe her. Nobody would go around saying "those evil scientists did it", much less "God did it", they'd say something like "the mailman did it". They'd say the same thing in ancient Rome. "Oh, she was hanging around with that Centurion an awful lot, you know."

      --
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    22. Re:Baby Jesus by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Of course, this would also means that God is a woman.. :P

    23. Re:Baby Jesus by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      moron

    24. Re:Baby Jesus by mdielmann · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Yep, if parthenogenisis did occur to cause the virgin birth of Jesus (a male), that would indeed be a miracle. Not so much because it wouldn't require a man for the pregnancy to occur, but that an X chromosome would have to change to a Y (quite an evolutionary change for a single chromosome transcription event) in such a way as to make a person who didn't look much different than other men.

      --
      Sure I'm paranoid, but am I paranoid enough?
    25. Re:Baby Jesus by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

      Not to mention, the Y chromosone would have to have to come from somewhere in this instance....

    26. Re:Baby Jesus by NixterAg · · Score: 1

      Divine intervention is not natural.

      What do you mean? Merely because a natural means was used to accomplish something does not mean that divine intervention wasn't the catalyst for the event. Maybe a better term is to say that God actualized the physical circumstances from which an incredibly improbable event (say, life 'evolving' from primordial soup) occurred.

      If there was a physical occurrence, say, a virgin birth, then there are physical explanations as to how the process occurred. That doesn't make it any less miraculous.

    27. Re:Baby Jesus by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Well the sex of god , even if he/she has one is open to interpretation anyway.

    28. Re:Baby Jesus by Vancorps · · Score: 1
      mmmmm soup, yeah, there is a lot of evidence that suggest massive mutation/evolution can occur when there is a sharp rise in Co2. Maybe God was going for a stroll on some mountain and exhaled causing all this.

      I agree, in fact, if you follow the first premise that there is a God figure and not an idea then you can say that God created nature and all the rules to go with it. Could he/she then not have created the environment in such a way as to generate a desired outcome? That would be considered natural. Many things are considered natural processes and are presumed to be law until we figure it out. Cloud seeding is a great example of this. We can force the clouds to rain. Is the water any less natural? You are doing the exact same thing that causes normal clouds to rain.

      At any rate, I have a hard time calling anything a miracle because my definition of miracle is something positive that happened for an unknown reason. If you know the reason then you were probably actively engaged in the process so I wouldn't call it a miracle.
    29. Re:Baby Jesus by davideo_ID · · Score: 1

      I guess, this being virgin birth might mean we have the mousias here. Ok, i'm sorry

      --
      I have nothing to say, just want people to read my cool new sig
    30. Re:Baby Jesus by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      thank you for contributing to this discussion

    31. Re:Baby Jesus by Jason+Ford · · Score: 4, Insightful
      Interesting figure about '100 specific pieces of predictive prophecy'. Unfortunately, it doesn't account for the fact that the writings about Jesus were written many years after his death.

      The supposed fulfillment of these prophecies was recorded so as to give the impression that Jesus was the Messiah. The writers didn't quite get there stories together, though, and mistakenly wrote about Jesus fulfilling prophecies that were never meant for him to fulfill, like the Virgin birth of Emmanuel.

      'The Septuagint had retained the Ishtar-worshipping virgin-temple practices in part by insisting on the physical virgin-birth of Isaiah's prophetic Emmanuel in verses 7:14. The later writers of Matthew and Luke relied on the Septuagint for their references. After reading this passage in Isaiah, Matthew sought to find a way to fit Jesus into the virgin-birth role that Isaiah spoke of, thus achieving a prophecy in Jesus' own birth. The impetus for the idea and the motivation which would eventually permanently seal it into the canon, came from the huge numbers of pagan converts. These converts didn't want to leave behind Mithras and Perseus, who were both virgin-born, in exchange for a Jewish Messiah who was not.' (From infidels.org)

      I agree with your point, though, about the abuse of the term 'miracle'.

      --
      I did not become a vegetarian for my health, I did it for the health of the chickens. --Isaac Bashevis Singer
    32. Re:Baby Jesus by Hiro+Antagonist · · Score: 2, Funny
      Some called Tony Hawk doing the 900 a miracle.

      At least we have conclusive proof that Tony Hawk did indeed perform a 900. That seems to move it out of the miracle category.

      But then again, Tony's 900, as spectacular as it was, didn't fit over 100 pieces of specific predictive prophecy from several hundreds of years of writing, most several hundreds of years prior to the event.

      For every piece of prophecy that the birth-o-Jesus fit, there are probably twenty pieces of predictive prophecy that were violated. People tend to look back at things like the predictions of Nostradamus and comment on how 'uncanny' his predictions were; these comments are, of course, made after the fact, when people can apply the vauge statements and metaphors of written prophecy to modern-day events. It's no more valid than a newspaper horoscope, which is itself a form of written prophecy.

      And, Tony's 900 didn't quite heal hundreds or feed thousands and deliver moral teachings or resurrect after a decent Roman crucifixion.

      We don't know if Jesus did either, unless you've got video. ;)

      But then again, there are those who think that the sun rising every morning is the result of an image broadcast into their brain by evil goverrnment agents while their bodies are actually asleep on the slab in the lab.

      How is this different in believing that there is a being so incredible as to have created the universe, and so petty as to care about whether or not I like bacon?

      ...and they'll say that's it's just a matter of time before there's a Church of the Tony Hawk 900.

      You mean there isn't?

      --

      --
      I Hit the Karma Cap, and All I Got Was This Lousy .sig.
    33. Re:Baby Jesus by Camel+Pilot · · Score: 1

      BTW the Mithras parallels to Jesus are way over done unless you are willing to classify a spontaneous generation from a rock as a virgin birth.

    34. Re:Baby Jesus by HTH+NE1 · · Score: 1

      Unless Mary was a chimera, having as a fetus absorbed the cells of a fraternal male twin. It happens and frustrates DNA testing. Some human chimeras have mottled skin; it seems to depend upon when the fertilized eggs merged.

      Of course, that just makes it even more rare: parthenogenesis of a chimeric human female carrying the suppressed male DNA of her fraternal twin and transferance of the Y chromosome of that twin to the produced fetus.

      Of course, some will say such an improbability of events coming about would still be evidence of the hand of God.

      --
      Oh, say does that Star-Spangled Banner entwine / The myrtle of Venus with Bacchus's vine?
    35. Re:Baby Jesus by Perdition · · Score: 1

      Well, thanks, but as you can see by following posts, I'm way off the mark. Ignore me.

      --
      Windows XP SP2 told me to install third-party software that prevents viruses and protects stability... I chose Ubuntu
    36. Re:Baby Jesus by Perdition · · Score: 1

      Well, I understand your problems with the whole Jesus thing, and they are well-framed and empty of contempt, so I don't want to insult you. That would be punishing someone with a contrary viewpoint just for having it.

      Truth is, most "definitive" biographical information we have about ancient characters was written dozens, if not hundreds of years after their deaths. However, since they seem to jibe with other evidences, we have no reason out of hand to disbelieve the existence, words, and acts of Ramses, Caesar, Alexander, Plato, etc. So at some point, you can comfortably say, "Well, no one came up with a refutive biography, so let's work with the one that seemed to be tolerable even to the critics at the time..." It's a bit thin, as opposed to having video of Alexander conquering the known world, but it seems to make historians happy. Unless, of course, you're Jesus.

      --
      Windows XP SP2 told me to install third-party software that prevents viruses and protects stability... I chose Ubuntu
    37. Re:Baby Jesus by Talence · · Score: 2, Insightful

      More likely, Mary just got pregnant with some other guy and since having a bastard kid probably wasn't so great at that time, they made up a nice story where an "angel" told them it wasn't another guy, but in fact a god who impregnated her. Of course the prophecy that Joseph needed to be in Jesus' lineage is also smashed this way. Angels seemed to be quite commonplace apparently, since their presence or absense seems to be a minor detail during resurrection (see different stories at the tomb).

      --
      I plan to plan / Dutch course in The Hague
    38. Re:Baby Jesus by Talence · · Score: 1

      So your point is that the more outrageous the claim is, the more likely you will believe it?

      --
      I plan to plan / Dutch course in The Hague
    39. Re:Baby Jesus by Jennifer+E.+Elaan · · Score: 2, Interesting
      Actually, such slaughter is REPEATEDLY condoned in the Bible.

      Here is a particularly nasty quote:

      Suppose you hear in one of the towns the LORD your God is giving you that some worthless rabble among you have led their fellow citizens astray by encouraging them to worship foreign gods. In such cases, you must examine the facts carefully. If you find it is true and can prove that such a detestable act has occurred among you, you must attack that town and completely destroy all its inhabitants, as well as all the livestock. Then you must pile all the plunder in the middle of the street and burn it. Put the entire town to the torch as a burnt offering to the LORD your God. That town must remain a ruin forever; it may never be rebuilt. Keep none of the plunder that has been set apart for destruction. Then the LORD will turn from his fierce anger and be merciful to you. He will have compassion on you and make you a great nation, just as he solemnly promised your ancestors. "The LORD your God will be merciful only if you obey him and keep all the commands I am giving you today, doing what is pleasing to him." (Deuteronomy 13:13-19 NLT)
    40. Re:Baby Jesus by Jason+Ford · · Score: 1

      Ah, yes. And here we've hit on exactly the problem: "[A]t some point, you can comfortably say..." It seems this just boils down to a difference in comfort levels.

      BTW - Thank you for not insulting me. =)

      --
      I did not become a vegetarian for my health, I did it for the health of the chickens. --Isaac Bashevis Singer
    41. Re:Baby Jesus by Merkuri22 · · Score: 1

      If it did occur naturally, baby Jesus' birth would not be a miracle, which would tend to discredit the claim he is the son of God.

      Not neccesarily. Some people think the periodic table and how everything on it "works out" is proof of the existence of God. Natural does not automatically cancel out God. If God made the rules of the world, then he can also break them or re-write them. Personally, I believe that God shows himself to us and makes his will known with coincidences, but that's just me.

      Even if it did happen "naturally", that's quite a coincidence, and still can be taken as "proof" of God. (Quotation marks because if we really could prove God existed then we probably would never have had so many wars over the subject. ;) )

    42. Re:Baby Jesus by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      skipping the religious issues for the moment, you can get XX males.

      Note if you are going to google this, search for "XX males" not XXX males, or I will not be accountable for the consequences...

    43. Re:Baby Jesus by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The prophecy that you are referring to, and that most people are familiar with is:

      "Therefore the Lord himself will give you a sign: The virgin will be with child and will give birth to a son, and will call him Immanuel." (Isaiah 7:14, NIV)

      However, if you look at a more literal translation of the original Hebrew, you get:

      "Therefore the Lord Himself will give you a sign: Behold, a virgin will be with child and bear a son, and she will call His name Immanuel." (Isaiah 7:14, NASB)

      Now, the version of translation you seem to be referring to is:

      Therefore the Lord Himself shall give you a sign: Behold, the young woman who is unmarried and a virgin shall conceive and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel [God with us]. (Isaiah 7:14, AMP)

      As you can see, there is very little disagreement among them and even the one you mention points out that she is a virgin.

      In addition, dating on the passages of Isaiah found among the Dead Sea scrolls place them as written around 125BC... over a hundred years before Christ.

      In addition, the Dead Sea scolls served to verify the authenticity of the translations through history in testifying to the lack of change in the manuscripts even over the course of thousands of years. The Jews (and later Christians) were meticulous in how they preserved the writings (scribes over the centuries actually used a hash algorithm to verify the accuracy of copies as they were being made).

      If you want to learn more about this, please pick up a copy of "Evidence that Demands a Verdict" by Josh McDowell.

    44. Re:Baby Jesus by Hektor_Troy · · Score: 1

      When I say "natural" I didn't mean Jesus' birth alone.

      If virgirn birth was a naturally occuring thing, it would happen all the time. Say at the same rate as having twins.

      This would make Jesus' birth anything but a miracle, as it happens constantly. What makes HIS birth so special compared to all the others born of virgin mothers? Well, apart form the strange visits by deluded people who felt it nescesarry to just drop in at the same barn, but that happened at my birth as well.

      --
      We do not live in the 21st century. We live in the 20 second century.
    45. Re:Baby Jesus by ajs318 · · Score: 1
      over 100 pieces of specific predictive prophecy
      I thought "predictive" meant you said what was going to happen before it happened. The bible was mostly written well after the event, and translated through many languages including some no longer spoken. It contains a forceful sales pitch for the jewish faith, inextricably interwoven with a mess of mythology and a gamut of historical accounts from half-true to fantastic.
      --
      Je fume. Tu fumes. Nous fûmes!
  6. 2 mothers = 4 breasts! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Funny

    Damn you, Freud!

    1. Re:2 mothers = 4 breasts! by EpsCylonB · · Score: 2, Funny

      Frm the article...

      The process by which this was accomplished (parthenogenesis) does not naturally occur in mammals

      No shit sherlock...

    2. Re:2 mothers = 4 breasts! by nova20 · · Score: 1
      If our fathers are our models for God, what's this poor mousie going to think?

      /nova20

    3. Re:2 mothers = 4 breasts! by Dr.+Sigmund+Freud · · Score: 2, Funny
      What do you mean damn you? Do you realize the problems I've had to face with just one mommy?

      Four breasts? Ummm. But real question for /. is how many buttons does this mouse have? If it's only one, the morons here are bound to start bitchin' about a one button mouse.

    4. Re:2 mothers = 4 breasts! by jeff67 · · Score: 1
  7. Behold by polyp2000 · · Score: 2, Funny

    The virgin birth, now who is god? Mouse society must be up in cheese at the moment. Could this be the second coming of the Mousiahh ?

    --
    Electronic Music Made Using Linux http://soundcloud.com/polyp
    1. Re:Behold by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
      Mouse society must be up in cheese at the moment.

      Oh what a friend they have in cheeses.

    2. Re:Behold by hplasm · · Score: 2, Funny

      Little Baby Cheeses?

      --
      ...and he grinned, like a fox eating shit out of a wire brush.
  8. This is it... by kop · · Score: 4, Funny

    They dont need us anymore!

    Panic!

    1. Re:This is it... by eclectro · · Score: 4, Funny

      They dont need us anymore!

      Remember the quote from Red Green "If women don't find you handsome, they should at least find you handy."

      So as long as we are handy with the duct tape, and can kill the occasional bug, I'd say we have a fighting chance.

      Unless you are nerd.....

      --
      Take the cheese to sickbay, the doctor should see it as soon as possible - B'Elanna Torres, "Learning Curve"
    2. Re:This is it... by rcamera · · Score: 1

      they never needed you. on the other hand, they can't live without me.

      --
      Wave upon wave of demented avengers March cheerfully out of obscurity into the dream
    3. Re:This is it... by somethinghollow · · Score: 1

      Does that mean geeks will be more popular with the ladies? Many of us are skilled at fixing things in general in addition to operating a computer. I've known football players who would surprise me if they knew how to tie their own shoes.

      So, the ladies will want us (geeks) around, but we still won't be getting laid (because they don't need us for that anymore). At least we'll have some eye candy. See. It doesn't sound so bad now.

      ;)

    4. Re:This is it... by jaavaaguru · · Score: 1

      Unless you are nerd.....

      Some of us eradicate bugs fairly often. :-)

    5. Re:This is it... by pahles · · Score: 1

      Yes, they do. Who else is going to take the garbage out?

      --
      Sig?
    6. Re:This is it... by dustmote · · Score: 1

      So, the ladies will want us (geeks) around, but we still won't be getting laid (because they don't need us for that anymore)

      OBSLASHDOT JOKE: Of course, that won't be a new experience for most of the people on here, anyway.

      It's funny, though, how many guys are insecure about them getting rid of us or something. I know most of the people on here are joking, but you don't see women joking about similar situations happening to them. I wonder how deeply ingrained this has become, and why. None of the women that I talk to have ever had a desire to get rid of men, more than a single individual or so anyway. Well, except the lesbians, and they've already removed men from their society as much as possible.

      --


      -1, "1337" speak
    7. Re:This is it... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I'll believe that when my girlfriend can open jars herself =P

    8. Re:This is it... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It comes from misogynistic/cynical stereotypes: women don't enjoy heterosexual sex; women only use love and sex as a bargaining chip to get money/children. In reality, most women are wonderful people, but American society is fucked enough to make everyone think they're not.

    9. Re:This is it... by hashwolf · · Score: 0

      If you're a nerd you're probably handy with duct tape.

      --
      - "They misunderestimated me."
    10. Re:This is it... by somethinghollow · · Score: 1

      I know most of the people on here are joking, but you don't see women joking about similar situations happening to them.

      Because most straight guys will never ever turn down sex, unless the woman is appalling (e.g. ugly, diseased, disfigured, but those are arguable for some) or their friends might make fun of them for not turning down the woman.

      Well, except the lesbians, and they've already removed men from their society as much as possible.

      In a culture where female bi-sexuality is the hottest new trend, I've watched many of my female friends go through binge / purge routines where sometimes they "never" want to look at a man again. It's quite disheartening. The fact that guys like to watch girl-on-girl action, I think, attempts to veil the insecurity you speak of. That or he wrongly thinks the two girls would like him to be involved.

    11. Re:This is it... by May+Kasahara · · Score: 1
      Unless you are nerd.....

      Don't lose hope! You can always upgrade our machines and install software for us! :D

      (Not that I'm all that helpless myself, just speaking for the female masses)

    12. Re:This is it... by Rick+and+Roll · · Score: 1

      If you watch the Red Green Show, you are most likely a nerd.

    13. Re:This is it... by Paulrothrock · · Score: 1

      And kill bugs. And do the dishes. And reach high things. And change lightbulbs. And set up a network. And troubleshoot her computer. Etc. etc. etc.

      --
      I'm in the hole of the broadband donut.
    14. Re:This is it... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
      Because most straight guys will never ever turn down sex, unless the woman is appalling (e.g. ugly, diseased, disfigured, but those are arguable for some) or their friends might make fun of them for not turning down the woman.
      Most straight guys will at some point be committed and/or religious. I'd wager almost every straight man will turn down sex at least once in his life.

      Sex does have consequences for men, too, be they ever slight. Sometimes you don't want to hurt the girl or, God forbid, you're just not in the mood. I think you'll find that men with low sex drives will turn down sex just as readily as women. Just anecdotally, in many sexless marriages, sexlessness is instigated by the man.

      There is, however, a world of difference between turning down sex and admitting to turning down sex.

      The fact that guys like to watch girl-on-girl action, I think, attempts to veil the insecurity you speak of. That or he wrongly thinks the two girls would like him to be involved.
      I always assumed it was because guys don't like to masturbate to pictures of penises. Maybe I'm weird that way, I don't know. Personally I don't draw any distinction at all between lesbian porn and penisless porn (e.g., where some guy is fingering some girl). As long as she's screaming about something, you know.

    15. Re:This is it... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      They've never needed you... geek-boy.

    16. Re:This is it... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      But what do you need women for in that case?

    17. Re:This is it... by Saeger · · Score: 1
      Being a handyman is low-skill labor - easily replacable by robots in a decade or so. Best to fear the dildo attachment.

      --

      --
      Power to the Peaceful
    18. Re:This is it... by Jennifer+E.+Elaan · · Score: 1
      Funny... I kill the bugs, my g/f does the dishes, I reach the high things, change the lightbulbs, rewire the house, install the home automation system, etc. We share the networking tasks, although she still can configure a Cisco better than I can. We both run heavily customized machines that nobody but us can troubleshoot. Etc etc etc. And we have this rule for printed circuit boards: whoever needs it, etches it.

      *winks* Try not to think about it too much, it'll hurt your head.

  9. Howard Stern was right by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Funny

    Everyone loves lesbians! Even mice!

  10. Re:At BBC too - oops! by TheFairElf · · Score: 1

    Oops.. sorry, didn't notice the post included link to BBC. But I did have something more to say besides the link :|

  11. Kaguya by Hekatchu · · Score: 1

    Seems that we'll see more and more this kind of news in genetic field especially. But it's still "hazardotech". Little Kaguya (name of the mouse) required even more unsuccessful materia/innocent mice to succeed than Dolly the sheep. So no mass production for awhile.

  12. Did they name it Heather? by ThePretender · · Score: 4, Funny

    Because I always thought Heather Has Two Mommies

    1. Re:Did they name it Heather? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The new ride at DisneyWorld

      Minnie has Two Mommies.....

  13. Parthenogenesis by aacool · · Score: 5, Interesting
    This terms comes from the Greek for virgin birth (;))Natural parthenogenesis has been observed in many lower animals (it is characteristic of the rotifers), especially insects, e.g., the aphid

    The phenomenon of parthenogenesis was discovered in the 18th cent. by Charles Bonnet. In 1900, Jacques Loeb accomplished the first clear case of artificial parthenogenesis when he pricked unfertilized frog eggs with a needle and found that in some cases normal embryonic development ensued

    Artificial parthenogenesis has since been achieved in almost all major groups of animals, although it usually results in incomplete and abnormal development

    The phenomenon is rarer among plants (where it is called parthenocarpy) than among animals

    1. Re:Parthenogenesis by SmackCrackandPot · · Score: 2, Interesting

      It's known to happen in Snakes too. The general theory is that if a female is approaching the end of her reproductive stage, and she can't find a mate, it's more beneficial to the species for her to clone her own offspring, than to not have any offspring at all.

    2. Re:Parthenogenesis by ajs · · Score: 1
      "Big black nemesis: parthenogenesis
      No one move a muscle as the dead come home!"

      - "Nemesis", Shriekback
      One of my favorite songs, from one of my favorite albums.
    3. Re:Parthenogenesis by PunchMonkey · · Score: 1

      It's known to happen in dinosaurs too. C'mon people, didn't we all see this movie? This is truly old news.

      /hides in corner for when the mice find a way off the island

      --
      I'll have something intelligent to add one of these days...
    4. Re:Parthenogenesis by Speare · · Score: 1

      The scientists quoted on NPR said that the all-maternal mice were created by a similar process but they were not sure that it would actually fall into the definition of Parthenogenesis. They did not just activate the cells to spur them into self-subdivision. They basically cultivated the proteins or hormones to make them more "male-like," I suppose so that the cells would do the activation (fertilization) themselves. They said that the overall chemistry isn't so black-and-white, male-and-female, but that the scientists could get the cells to fulfill the male and female requirements for fertilization without actually having the male genetic component present.

      --
      [ .sig file not found ]
    5. Re:Parthenogenesis by NoMoreNicksLeft · · Score: 1

      No, that's spontaneous gender changing, still requires a male and female parent.

      For that bit of stupidity, I'm confiscating your lower UID and keeping it for my own. Now go grab an 800,000 uid before they're all gone.

  14. lgf2 by T-Kir · · Score: 0, Funny

    turn activated the Igf2 which allowed this process to occur.

    Even though the uppercase "I" made me think of an "l", but why did that make me think "Lesbian Girl Friends 2"??? I must have been watching too much of The L Word recently!

    --
    Are you local? There's nothing for you here!
  15. Just waiting for the backlash by zymurgy_cat · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Go ahead and mod me down as a troll, but why do I have this feeling we'll see a religiously-based backlash against this? Given the furor over stem cell research, cloning, etc., I'd imagine social conservatives would see this as yet another threat of some kind. After all, this is the holy grail in separating sex from reproduction. Hell, I could easily imagine them complaining about "them thar homo-shex-u-als" now being able to reproduce.

    --
    -- Fugacity: Confusing chemists since 1908
    1. Re:Just waiting for the backlash by afeeney · · Score: 1
      While I'd agree that there may well be a conservative religious backlash, I'm not sure that it would be about separating sex from reproduction (that we already have with in vitro fertilization and had that particular backlash then).

      I'd expect to see it come from the concept that this is "unnatural" and that Deity of Their Choice made men with sperm and women with eggs and that's why babies should be made with both.

      There might also be a social backlash about children growing up knowing that they don't biologically have a father.

      Gotta wonder what they'd make of a situation where two women are the biological parents but the child is raised by one of the biological parents and a male spouse.

    2. Re:Just waiting for the backlash by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yay, conservatives are always backwards, science-fearing, drunk, illiterate, and hate anyone different from them. Whose's having the kneejerk reaction against a false stereotype now?

    3. Re:Just waiting for the backlash by goldspider · · Score: 1
      The religious right will inevitably end up labeling this as "screwing with Mother Nature".

      Ironically, nobody among the religious right is asking where Father Nature has been all these years. Wouldn't you think that authorities would be trying to to collect child support?

      --
      "Ask not what your country can do for you." --John F. Kennedy
    4. Re:Just waiting for the backlash by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Funny

      Until your second sentence you were +5 insightful.

    5. Re:Just waiting for the backlash by Progman3K · · Score: 1

      It would be interesting to make a study and see if the offspring of homosexuals has a greater tendency towards being homosexuals that offspring of heterosexual mates...

      I have to guess that there would be in fact no significant difference, because heterosexuals have been breeding homosexuals for centuries...

      --
      I don't know the meaning of the word 'don't' - J
    6. Re:Just waiting for the backlash by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Strange, I have this feeling that we'll see an anti-religion party over this. Given the orgasmic acceptance of stem cell research, cloning, etc, the liberals will see it as something to prod conservatives with. After all, only retarded people might be disturbed a little over upsetting the natural process of reproduction. I could see them using it as a way to push inhumane experiments under the guise of equal reproductive rights for same-sex marriages.

    7. Re:Just waiting for the backlash by Progman3K · · Score: 1

      >These studies have been done, [...] The studies found that while the children had no greater tendencies to be homosexuals themselves, they were deeply traumatized by having been raised by parents with a mental disorder (homosexuality).

      What? Homosexuality hasn't been classified as a mental disorder since the early 1970s.

      What are these studies you are talking about?

      Pffft... Obviously a troll.

      --
      I don't know the meaning of the word 'don't' - J
    8. Re:Just waiting for the backlash by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      FWIW, I meta-modded your troll moderation unfair.

    9. Re:Just waiting for the backlash by Fancia · · Score: 1

      I was reading about a study performed around a similar situation: the adopted children of homosexual couples. The children have a greater tendency to *experiment* with homosexuality, mainly because it seems as normal to them as heterosexuality, but their actual tendency towards homosexuality is the same as that of a child raised by heterosexual parents. This is unsurprising, of course, because homosexuality is known to be a physical condition caused before birth, but *not* caused by genetics.

      --

      Bít, zabít, jen proto, ze su liska!
  16. babies born all the time without fathers by thomasa · · Score: 1, Funny


    Quote from picture caption on web site:
    Could human babies be born without fathers?
    Unquote

    I was there when my children were born but quite
    often this is not true. Especially years ago.

    1. Re:babies born all the time without fathers by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      human babies are born without fathers all the time, in the social sense. a lil bit of sperm does not a father make.

    2. Re:babies born all the time without fathers by shadowcabbit · · Score: 1

      I was there when my children were born but quite often this is not true. Especially years ago.

      You're nitpicking. Of course the babies can be 'born' without a father, where 'born' is defined as "ejected at full term from the mother's body".

      The question asked probably should have read "Could human babies be conceived without fathers?".

      --
      "Why Subscribe?" Good question...
    3. Re:babies born all the time without fathers by Alranor · · Score: 1, Funny

      where 'born' is defined as "ejected at full term from the mother's body".

      Hmm.

      I need more sleep.

      When I first read that I parsed it as "ejected at full speed from the mother's body" and my first thought was "of course you need a father, who else would be willing to put themselves in the way of a speeding baby bullet"

  17. Re:At BBC too - oops! by mobby_6kl · · Score: 1

    Ahrr, you were faster. I was going to karma whore and say something that would get me moded up. Nevermind.

  18. Two daddies? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Funny

    Doubt it. The Y chromosome is a mutation of the X chromosome and contains much less information. But let's see how this mouse goes. I've my suspicions that in addition to grand pronouncements we'll invent a host of new varients of immune deficencie and progeria like disorders before we've got the kinks more or less understood, let alone under control.

    So as much as I'm looking forward to an all lesbian (but bi curious) amazon go-go dancer future where I'm the last man standing; this research and my time machine seem about equally incomplete. All for one and snu-snu for all.

    1. Re:Two daddies? by trewornan · · Score: 5, Informative

      The Y chromosome is a mutation of the X chromosome and contains much less information

      True but misleading.

      Yes, the Y chromosomes contains less genetic data but it's information not found in the X chromosome. So because data is repeated, two X chromosomes contain less information than an X and a Y.

      Yes, it's likely that the Y chromosome is a mutation of an X chromosome, but it differentiated so long ago that 95% of the Y chromosome is male specific.

      BTW: I'm not suggesting that this is a deliberate attempt to mislead.

    2. Re:Two daddies? by Walkiry · · Score: 3, Interesting

      > Doubt it. The Y chromosome is a mutation of the X chromosome and contains much less information.

      Well, that's why you want to use two parents, each carries an X chromosome. I'd guess it'd involve the use of Cyst Progenitor Cells and an Artificial Womb.

      > this research and my time machine seem about equally incomplete

      That's what Ebay is for ;)

      --
      ---- Take the Space Quiz!
    3. Re:Two daddies? by joe_bruin · · Score: 5, Informative

      The Y chromosome is a mutation of the X chromosome and contains much less information.

      but you forget that males have both X and Y chromosomes. so, while 2 females (only X's) can only create female offspring, males can create both male (XY), female (XX).

    4. Re:Two daddies? by Dolda2000 · · Score: 2, Interesting

      The greatest problem might be that you need an egg cell, though. While you can take an egg cell from a female specimen, it won't help species or human situations when there are no females available.

    5. Re:Two daddies? by Hooya · · Score: 1
      while 2 females (only X's) can only create female offspring, males can create both male (XY), female (XX)

      now, if two females can create an offspring, there is no need for a male offspring.

      i saw a program on tv (i forget which) that essentially said that the 'template' was a female which further 'specializes' into a male just for the sake of continual reproduction. if that need were gone, i don't see why males would need to be created at all.

      fellow nerds (which arguably consists of mostly males), this news confirms we're headed for extinction. ;)

    6. Re:Two daddies? by nova20 · · Score: 1
      So as much as I'm looking forward to an all lesbian (but bi curious) amazon go-go dancer future where I'm the last man standing;

      Well I certainly don't like this technology... if women can procreate without us, how are we ever going to get laid?

      /nova20

    7. Re:Two daddies? by Jugalator · · Score: 1

      now, if two females can create an offspring, there is no need for a male offspring.

      No, only a whole lot of lab work -- how boring :)

      --
      Beware: In C++, your friends can see your privates!
    8. Re:Two daddies? by e_pluribus_funk · · Score: 1, Informative

      Yes, the Y chromosomes contains less genetic data but it's information not found in the X chromosome. So because data is repeated, two X chromosomes contain less information than an X and a Y.

      ...

      BTW: I'm not suggesting that this is a deliberate attempt to mislead.

      Good, because you're wrong. It isn't a question of containing less or more data (although you are wrong on that account too), it's a question of homozigosity vs heterogosity. Females inherit an X chromosome from both their father and mother.

      That means they have two different versions of the X-chromosome. Not the same.

      The reason why two X-chromosomes are better than one is because most sex-linked diseases require you to be homozygous. Guess what? If you are a male, you are homozygous because you only have one copy of the gene.

    9. Re:Two daddies? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      That's all fine, as long as I'm the only male left...ya ever see Geneshaft? Utopian society IHMO. Built-in harem situation with the added benefit that everyone is genetically designed to be really hot.

    10. Re:Two daddies? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      What happens when something has two Y chromosomes?

    11. Re:Two daddies? by Smallpond · · Score: 1


      Who says the egg cell has to be from the same species?

    12. Re:Two daddies? by 2nd+Post! · · Score: 1

      But two X chromosomes is 100% sufficient; witness the female population of any species to see how XX works.

      There are no viable YY products of any species that I know of.

    13. Re:Two daddies? by trewornan · · Score: 1

      . . . they have two different versions of the X-chromosome. Not the same.

      And given that, "at least 98% of human DNA is identical to that of chimpanzees" how much variation do you think there is between two human X chromosomes?

      However I wasn't questioning the original posters statement that two Y chromosomes are not enough to produce a healthy offspring (obviously true) - merely pointing out that a particular phrase in his post was open to mis-interpretation.

    14. Re:Two daddies? by trewornan · · Score: 1

      What happens when something has two Y chromosomes?

      Not a viable embryo.

    15. Re:Two daddies? by whovian · · Score: 2, Informative

      Me neither. But we as a species do produce X, XXY, XYY, XXX in about 1 in every few thousand births. These are (obviously) chromosomal disorders that can lead to sterility, aggressive behavior, and impared learning and development.

      --
      To-do List: Receive telemarketing call during a tornado warning. Check.
    16. Re:Two daddies? by alexq · · Score: 1
      two X chromosomes contain less information than an X and a Y.

      you're trying to say that females have less genetic information than males?

    17. Re:Two daddies? by Jim+Starx · · Score: 1

      Then why are they so damn complicated....?

      --
      The darkness... controls the music. The music... controls the soul.
    18. Re:Two daddies? by dAzED1 · · Score: 2, Funny

      chromosomal recombination, that's who.

    19. Re:Two daddies? by trewornan · · Score: 1

      Absolutely - but we may be approaching dangerous territory here, and I wouldn't like anyone to think that I consider this some kind of "male superiority" argument. It's completely irrelevant in that context.

    20. Re:Two daddies? by Vibragiel · · Score: 1

      Good, because you're wrong. It isn't a question of containing less or more data (although you are wrong on that account too).

      Nope, he's not wrong. What females have is one functional X chromosome (as males) and a second condensed and non functional X chromosome (called Barr corpuscle). So, in practice,

    21. Re:Two daddies? by alexq · · Score: 2, Interesting
      I don't know enough about genetics to fully disprove your assertion here, but I _do_ know that genetics are more about how the genes interact with each other than the individual pieces of information - the lack of one genome can cause another to act completely differently.

      Given that, I don't think you can simplistically say that one _or_ the other has more information - just different. Two identical genomes, in different places, can perform very different functions.

    22. Re:Two daddies? by pgolik · · Score: 1

      Only a portion of the Y chromosome is male-specific and indeed it encodes only a few proteins (and is full of repeats and junk DNA). A substantial portion of Y is homologous to X and contains many genes that behave like genes on any other chromosome - this is called pseudo-autosomal region (PAR), Obviously, the sex-linked portion of X (of which males have one copy and females two) contains numerous genes, most of them essential, so a YY karyotype would be inviable. There are XYY male karyotypes, however, and these are quite normal.

    23. Re:Two daddies? by pgolik · · Score: 3, Interesting

      The process that inacivates one copy of X in females is, however, random, so in some cells one copy is inactive, while in other cells it's the other that gets inactivated. So, in females some cells express the maternal X chromosme, while the others express the paternal one. If they are different with respect to a hereditary trait you get interesting results. That's how you get Calico cats (always female), or how you can detect muscle enzyme variation in some asymptomatic female carriers of Duchenne Muscular Dystrophy.

    24. Re:Two daddies? by Jennifer+E.+Elaan · · Score: 1

      Actually, I was just thinking this was great news for the lesbian geeks. Skip extinct, we'd end up running the place!

    25. Re:Two daddies? by Snowdog668 · · Score: 1

      "if that need were gone, i don't see why males would need to be created at all".

      To quote Tim Allen, "lawn care and vehicle maintenance".

      --
      I wouldn't say I'm a bad gambler but the last time I went to Vegas I even lost a buck on the soda machine.
    26. Re:Two daddies? by trewornan · · Score: 1

      A Y chromosome contains completely different genes from those on X chromosomes. Two X chromosomes will contain the same genes, albeit possibly slightly different versions. As a result males have genes which are not present in females - these genes are additional or extra genes.


      I had not regarded this as a contentious statement it is a well known fact (although future research may changes).


      I don't know enough about genetics to fully disprove your assertion


      Or even begin to disprove it! Try by all means but I doubt you'll find any research to "disprove" what I've said.

    27. Re:Two daddies? by the_mad_poster · · Score: 1

      That's how you get Calico cats (always female)...

      Klinefelter's syndrome in a cat (two X, one Y) can (not definite, just possible) produce a male Calico (due to the Y), but it will always be sterile. That's why male Calicos are extremely RARE. They do exist, however.

      --
      Alito: A vote for Alito is a punch in the eye to put that bitch back in her place!
    28. Re:Two daddies? by NDPTAL85 · · Score: 1

      There's actually a sci-fi book called "Ethan of Athos" about a planet in a sci-fi universe that is all men. The men on that planet use stored eggs and artificial wombs to reproduce. Artificial wombs are already being worked on in reality. So in the future neither men or women will be necessary to create children.

      --
      Mac OS X and Windows XP working side by side to fight back the night.
    29. Re:Two daddies? by sflory · · Score: 1

      More is not always better. In fact you could argue that women are superior due to the fact they have nearly twice as many genes on their extra X that we do on the Y.

      Sure the extra genes are the same type of genes on the other X chromosome, but they can code for differnet expressions. Remember that women rarely ever get most types of baldness, most types of color blindness, Hemophilia, and so on. For women to suffer from the above disorders they need a gene on both X chromosomes.

      --
      IANALBIPOOGL (I am not a Lawyer, but I play one on GrokLaw.)
    30. Re:Two daddies? by alexq · · Score: 1

      you still haven't addressed the fact that two of the same gene can do completely different things, just like two different genes can do completely different things.

  19. ahahaha by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    We don't need you anymore.

    Like the 486, cassette tapes and the horse drawn carriage, you are obsolete. Tomorrows world is ours!

    -DenonGirl

    1. Re:ahahaha by Progman3K · · Score: 1

      WAIT.
      I believe there is still the matter of The Swimsuit Competition.

      What? There's _NO_ Swimsuit Competition?
      You mean I shaved my bikini-zone for nothing?

      Damn!

      --
      I don't know the meaning of the word 'don't' - J
    2. Re:ahahaha by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      No, you can pack it into a vest or hide it under an overcoat though.

  20. 'A mouse with two mothers'? by meringuoid · · Score: 1

    Do you really have two mothers when they're both the same mouse?

    --
    Real Daleks don't climb stairs - they level the building.
    1. Re:'A mouse with two mothers'? by meringuoid · · Score: 1

      Oops: here's why we should always RTFA, people! It's two sets of chromosomes from two different female mice. The 'two sets of chromosomes belonging to a female mouse' bit in the text seemed to imply that it was the same female mouse providing both...

      --
      Real Daleks don't climb stairs - they level the building.
    2. Re:'A mouse with two mothers'? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      if it were the same mouse providing both sets of chromosomes, then theere would likely be problems similar to inbreeding. Since many of the genes would be the same (about half), any genes coding for recessive deleterious traits, would be expressed. this is why children of closely related parents tend to have weird abnormalities like webbed toes and stuff.

  21. .06 success rate... by Perdition · · Score: 4, Insightful

    They only got a couple of eggs to work out of hundreds, and we still don't know the hidden impacts of such an abnormal mammalian progenation. What happens when this mouse breeds sexually? How long does it live? The whole thing could foreseeably collapse in less than two generations, or give rise to whole new genetic failures and degrading mutations in inobvious parts of the genome. I know this sort of research is promising, but it also scares me silly, because some whack-job is probably dying to try it on humans, no matter how risky.

    --
    Windows XP SP2 told me to install third-party software that prevents viruses and protects stability... I chose Ubuntu
    1. Re:.06 success rate... by Anonytroll · · Score: 1

      Damn right.
      Not only will some nutball be hellbent on doing it with humans because he can, in addition it will lower the respect we have towards life as a whole. I mean, comeon: who seriously can deny now that we try to play god? And very badly so, I might add. I'm just waiting for some madman to come to power that will seperate people by genetical "cleanness".

      That said, anyone remembering Dolly and what problems it had later? I'd be very surprised if that poor mouse does not end up like that.

    2. Re:.06 success rate... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      > because some whack-job is probably dying to try it on humans, no matter how risky.

      So what if they do? Go for it.

    3. Re:.06 success rate... by wintermind · · Score: 5, Informative

      I AM a scientist, and I read the research paper in Nature rather than the popular-press rehashings of the article. Of the 371 embryos that were transferred to recipients there were 8 born live and 2 who survived the perinatal period. That should stop the handwaving about the likelihood of producing humans infants using ths approach on the grounds of cost alone.

      An extensive amount of genetic engineering was done in order to produce parthenotes that were capable of surviving past 10d of gestation, which is when naturally-occuring parthenotes usually die. One of the two survivors was raised by a foster mother to adulthood and has herself produced a litter of apparently normal pups. The other survivor was sacrificed for gene expression profile studies.

      Some whack job might indeed try this on humans, but it is unlikely. It is easy to obtain enough mice recipients for 371 embryos. It will be significantly more challenging to do that for humans. We also do not know what regulatory differences there may be between mice and humans that would prevent the reported protocol from producing viable embryos in vitro.

    4. Re:.06 success rate... by dan+dan+the+dna+man · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Of course if you it RTFA you'd realise they had already bred it. And the success rate is about equivalent to the early mammalian cloning experiments (eg Dolly) so its not that surprising, techniques always get more effective the longer they are in use and the more widespread they become.

      --
      I don't read your sig, why do you read mine?
    5. Re:.06 success rate... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      in addition it will lower the respect we have towards life as a whole.

      I don't know how that's possible unless you mean only human life. I've never met anyone who seemed honestly respectful or grateful for the life that gave rise to his hamburger. It might as well by synthetic for all the gratitude they have for another mammel which died to sustain their own lives.

    6. Re:.06 success rate... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Im not sure if it was mentioned in this article, but one of teh articles i read about this stated that the child produced by these experiments was able to have seemignly normal children by sexual reproduction

    7. Re:.06 success rate... by alexq · · Score: 1
      This isn't the same as cloning - like those star trek episodes or whatever, where they run out of genetic material. The daughter mouse has two different X chromosomes - and if you were to take all women in history who ever lived, you could create them just with the genes from their women ancestors. It's a strange concept but it's true.

      So at least from this purely genetic angle, it seems sound. From a process standpoint? who knows.

    8. Re:.06 success rate... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You forget about genetic mutations, mutation is responsible for all the difference between oursleves and an ameoba. not to mention that half of the genes of every woman come from a man, so no, you cant create every womans genotype from that of all her female ancestors.

      Also, with cloning you dont "run out" of genetic material. if you clone an organism perfectly, then lack of genetic material is not an issue, because there is no combination and therefore undesirable recessive traits will not be likely to be expressed as they are when closely related individuals mate.

  22. Yet another nail by Magickcat · · Score: 1, Funny

    Fabulous - just one more nail in the hetero male coffin.

    --

    Si tacuisses philosophus mansisses. If you had kept quiet, you would have remained a philosopher.

    1. Re:Yet another nail by millahtime · · Score: 1

      " Fabulous - just one more nail in the hetero male coffin."

      Hey, before it's over you might as well get one more nail in the female "coffin"

  23. This is NOT parthenogenesis. by Necromancyr · · Score: 5, Informative

    Parthenogenesis (straight from the Wikipedia Link): Parthenogenesis (Greek , "virgin", + , "birth") means the growth and development of an embryo or seed without fertilization by a male. In other words, an embryo/seed develops without receiving a second set of chromosomes from a 'father'. It doesn't matter if that second set came from a female or a male. When NPR covered this story, one of the scientists interviewed actually SAID this was different from parthenogensis, which had been demonstrated previously in many species.

    1. Re:This is NOT parthenogenesis. by ajs · · Score: 1

      Partenogenesis is, in general, spontaneous generation of life without the actual act of procreation. Granted, the biology community has narrowed the definition, but I think it's safe to say that classically, this is parthenogenesis, no?

    2. Re:This is NOT parthenogenesis. by efatapo · · Score: 1

      I think it's safe to say that classically, this is parthenogenesis, no?

      In short, no. They injected this cell with DNA from another species. This is much closer to cloning than it is parthenogenesis. The Nature article refers to it as such, but I would have to disagree. This isn't virgin birth so much as this is birth from two parents...one just isn't a father. Classic parthenogenesis involves some sort of cellular insult to an egg that triggers embryogenesis (be it osmotic, electric, or physical).

      Therefore it's pretty safe to say this is definitely not classic parthenogenesis if it's parthenogenesis at all.

  24. rabbits by zogger · · Score: 2, Interesting

    seems to me this has occurred in rabbits already. Any biologists here correct me if I am wrong. I also think that pregnant rabbits, in some instances, when highly stressed, will literally reabsorb their foetuses.

  25. This seems like by Hangin10 · · Score: 1

    Even though this is artificial, it seems
    similar to that article a while back where
    that woman had 2 sets of DNA.
    (Cymera or something, I don't claim to be able
    to spell).

    do mice have mitochondrial DNA? that kind of DNA
    is a maternal record right? So which "mother" passes on the mitochondrial DNA?

    1. Re:This seems like by Eevee · · Score: 1

      So which "mother" passes on the mitochondrial DNA?

      The one providing the egg which was used in its whole. Since the other mouse only provided DNA from her egg, none of her mitochondria were passed to the egg that was used.

  26. Swell.. by grub · · Score: 3, Funny


    .. mice that walk around complaining all the time.

    "You're not wearing that to the exercise wheel?!"
    "You never give me fresh seeds anymore!"
    "Ever since we had the brood you ignore me in the wood shavings!"

    --
    Trolling is a art,
    1. Re:Swell.. by Hogwash+McFly · · Score: 0, Offtopic

      This has always puzzled me - if women are always right, then do lesbian couples have arguments? If they did, would the universe explode?

      --
      Mother, do you think they'll like this sig?
  27. Moral Discussion by millahtime · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Now, we will be running into a Moral debate over wether this is right or not. There will be homosexual couples pushing for this with people. If it gets to that then they will push for marriage saying they can have families. This could really open up a huge "can of worms" so to speak

    1. Re:Moral Discussion by Tiram · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Gay and lesbian couples can already have families. You don't need to be able to breed for that. And having children is hardly a reason to marry anymore.

      I have no doubt quite a few arch-conservatives will freaked out over this, but really ...

      --
      The knuckles, the horrible knuckles!
      (I'm a girl, you know)
    2. Re:Moral Discussion by millahtime · · Score: 1

      Ok, I didn't spell out my point well enough. I meant genetically linked families of both parents. They can't do that.

    3. Re:Moral Discussion by faaaz · · Score: 2, Interesting

      What's the problem? What can of worms? Homosexual couples can have babies, great! Is there a reason denying homosexuals that if the technology exists (and they're willing to pay for it)?

      --
      we come in peace / shoot to kill
    4. Re:Moral Discussion by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If this is perfected to teh point where it is as effective as natural fertilization (which in teh early stages isnt very reliable), then I see no reason why people should not have acess to it. I see it as much less of a moral dilema than say abortion or cloning. it is, for all intents and purposes, a normal child. genes are combined in teh normal way with the exception of the 2 impriniting genes they have identified. it is not like clonign or "custom" babies, wheere you determine the genotype of the child. I think it is teh same as in vitro fertilization. so why teh hell shouldnt gay people, and anyone who wants to have a kid and cant in teh normal way, be able to do this? of course fundamentalists wont like it, but tehy dont like a lot of things and we still do them.

    5. Re:Moral Discussion by On+Lawn · · Score: 1


      Funny enough this is discussed in my Journal, right now at this moment.

      Fortunately for the moment, this procedure and same-gender unions are different subjects. Unless one of those in the same-gender union was a genetically engineered mutant newborn (becuase they didn't expect to live more than a few years). No, not remotely will we see this entering the debate of homosexual unions.

      And you are right. Whether the labratory or simply hiring a prostitute, same-sex couples can pretend to have the same capabilities as heterosexual couples. This capability has been around for a very long time. Not this or IVF or any other advancement will alter that debate.

    6. Re:Moral Discussion by GlassHeart · · Score: 1
      Ok, I didn't spell out my point well enough. I meant genetically linked families of both parents. They can't do that.

      Sure, but why is that necessary for "family"? Two heterosexuals can adopt and have a family (both in the legal sense and in the moral sense in most societies). If you pay attention to the news, you might notice that homosexual couples are already getting marriage rights in various places. The moral debate you fear is already reality.

    7. Re:Moral Discussion by On+Lawn · · Score: 1


      Its not what is neccisary for a family, but what is optimal for a family. The state regognizes marriages so that it can help foster the optimal environemnt for families (as the creation of family is one of the greatest expressions of individuality that we hold to as a society).

      I can just see the confusion that happens if we start trying to constitution what is or what is not a family. Someone starts walking across the landscape of scenarios asking "Am I a family now? Am I a family now?"

    8. Re:Moral Discussion by GlassHeart · · Score: 1
      Its not what is neccisary for a family, but what is optimal for a family.

      It's not completely clear to me what you mean by "it". I've been talking about genetic relationships of offspring with both parents. Assuming you're talking about the same thing, are you saying that a family where a child is genetically related only to a mother or father (i.e., remarried), or not at all (i.e., adopted), are "suboptimal" families? If so, why do most states allow them to occur (but not gay marriages)?

    9. Re:Moral Discussion by On+Lawn · · Score: 1
      Its not what is neccisary for a family, but what is optimal for a family.


      It's not completely clear to me what you mean by "it"

      The antecendent of "it" in this case is simply the relevant perspective, or solvable question.

      are you saying that a family where a child is genetically related only to a mother or father (i.e., remarried), or not at all (i.e., adopted), are "suboptimal" families?

      Technically, a child is always genetically related to a mother and father. And that isn't always what we'd call a family. As circumstance such as illegitimacy or divorce most certainly dissolve what was or should have been a family.

      In contrast a situation like an unwanted child given up to adoption provides the child the capacity to belong to a family. That at least mitigates the social cost that the child pays for his/her parents mistake, and I think warrants state facilitation.

      Also a family where one of the parents dies creates a burden, but we do not say that death dissolves a family tie as divorce does. That family was and is still in tact.

      Then lastly, as you say we recognize genetic relation as a family bond and support (even encourage) a parent to raise their own child. This is also a noble interest I support the state in assisting.

      (but not gay marriages)?

      I see the goals of homosexual and heterosexual recognition of the state to be two different things that are mutually incompatible.

    10. Re:Moral Discussion by GlassHeart · · Score: 1
      It's easiest with an example:

      A woman has a child with a man, who then leaves her with custody of the child. She later discovers that she is really homosexual, and moves in with her lover.

      If she had moved in with a man, she can marry him. There are probably very few states that would not recognize this marriage, if any. On the other hand, very few states would recognize her gay marriage, even if the state cannot prove any material difference in the marital or family relationship.

      Based on this example alone, it should be clear that the opponents to gay marriage don't actually have a problem with the constitution of the family or the depths of relationships, but with the fact that they are gay.

      A heterosexual couple who cannot or will not have children can get married. A heterosexual couple who cannot have children can have a child with the help of a sperm or egg donor. None of these marriages and families are legally any different from the "normal" family.

      So why must gay marriages be illegal? Why is the marriage of two infertile people legal? In fact, societies actively celebrate the marriage of very old people as fairytale endings. Why aren't their marriages illegal as well?

    11. Re:Moral Discussion by On+Lawn · · Score: 1

      If she had moved in with a man, she can marry him. There are probably very few states that would not recognize this marriage, if any. On the other hand, very few states would recognize her gay marriage,

      In neither case would the new husband or wife(?) be recognized as the child's family.

      Based on this example alone, it should be clear that the opponents to gay marriage don't actually have a problem with the constitution of the family or the depths of relationships, but with the fact that they are gay.

      So the child is really orthoganal to the point you were making as a childless woman or a woman with a child is treated the same. And a child is treated the same whether or not the woman chooses to shack up with a new male or female.

      The only variable that seems to make a determination is that she shacks up with a man or woman after "discovering" she is gay (although I say she probably could stay married also, which for the reasons of her daughter would be the true "family" choice).

      I singled out "discovering" in quotes as that seems to imply that homosexuality is a condition out of her control precluding her from a heterosexual relationship. If I am wrong let me know, it will be important later.

      A heterosexual couple who cannot or will not have children can get married. A heterosexual couple who cannot have children can have a child with the help of a sperm or egg donor. None of these marriages and families are legally any different from the "normal" family.

      So why must gay marriages be illegal? Why is the marriage of two infertile people legal? In fact, societies actively celebrate the marriage of very old people as fairytale endings. Why aren't their marriages illegal as well?


      Actually, one of these is not like the other. Allow me to represent the differences with some questions. Three questions to be exact...

      1) Do you feel that the handicapped should be compensated to help restore that which we deem naturally would be theirs?

      2) Do you feel that homosexuality is a handicap?

      3) Do you feel that having children is a natural capacity of a homosexual union and/or a heterosexual union (assuming none of the members are handicapped)?

      We'll get to older couples next, if you are still interested.

    12. Re:Moral Discussion by GlassHeart · · Score: 1
      In neither case would the new husband or wife(?) be recognized as the child's family.

      In what sense? Emotionally, they certainly can be. Legally, the child can be formally adopted. Genetically, clearly not, but is genetic relationship a pre-requisite for family?

      If so, why is adoption legal?

      So the child is really orthoganal to the point you were making as a childless woman or a woman with a child is treated the same. And a child is treated the same whether or not the woman chooses to shack up with a new male or female.

      Correct. The child is inserted into the example to make a family. In the US, a heterosexual couple with a child genetically related to only one parent is not exactly rare.

      I singled out "discovering" in quotes as that seems to imply that homosexuality is a condition out of her control precluding her from a heterosexual relationship. If I am wrong let me know, it will be important later.

      This is a point of contention. There are people who think homosexuality is a choice that can be corrected. In the absence of proof, I defer to what the general homosexual population claims, which is that they do not choose their sexual orientation.

      1) Do you feel that the handicapped should be compensated to help restore that which we deem naturally would be theirs?

      No. They should be helped (charity) so that they are as self-sufficient as possible, but society owes them nothing for their misfortunes. (I'm talking about a moral debt, not a real debt such as a social insurance mechanism.) I simply don't feel that everybody deserves to be born equal in every way (mind, body parts, wealth, etc.)

      2) Do you feel that homosexuality is a handicap?

      No. From all appearances homosexuals do not need any special assistance, except equal treatment.

      3) Do you feel that having children is a natural capacity of a homosexual union and/or a heterosexual union

      I feel that whether or not a couple has children is none of the government's business. However, if it insists on granting extra rights to child-rearing couples, then heterosexuals without children should get exactly the same treatment as homosexuals.

      I also feel that you haven't answered the question: what is the difference between two married homosexuals and two married heterosexuals who do not want or cannot have children?

    13. Re:Moral Discussion by On+Lawn · · Score: 1
      is genetic relationship a pre-requisite for family?

      Clearly it is 'a' pre-requisite but not 'the' prerequisite.

      If so, why is adoption legal?

      Because it is 'a' pre-requisite but not 'the' prerequisite.

      In the US, a heterosexual couple with a child genetically related to only one parent is not exactly rare.

      In the US a child genetically related to only one parent is extremely rare. This is true for the whole length and breadth of homosapien history.

      In the absence of proof, I defer to what the general homosexual population claims, which is that they do not choose their sexual orientation.

      In the face of proof you have simply reverted to a self-fulfilling sample. Think about it; those who think they cannot change have not and are in your sampling and those that think they can change have and are therefore not in your sampling.

      A recent study has shown that hypocondriacs are also treatable, but a large portion of them simply walk out of the office when its suggested to them that their condition is only in their mind. You see how a simular sampling for "true hypocondriacs" could easily skew one to believe it is not changeable.

      As far as your answers,

      Answer #1 conflicts with #2, to wit "I simply don't feel that everybody deserves to be born equal in every way," yet you say, "From all appearances homosexuals [need] equal treatment."

      Also answer #3 does not answer the question. It is only on the same topic by a generous stretch of the imagination.

      I also feel that you haven't answered the question: what is the difference between two married homosexuals and two married heterosexuals who do not want or cannot have children?

      You are right, I haven't and will rectify that immediately.

      Allow me to quote someone else who I quoted before in a journal entry of mine...

      Same-sex marriage proponents typically try to excuse their removal of children from the marriage equation with some variant of these two counter arguments:

      1) Not all heterosexual couples can bear children
      2) Through intervention by a third party, a member of a same-sex union *can* have a child.

      The problem with those attempts are...

      1) Through what intrusive, all knowing crystal ball will we determine who truly cannot have children and who can? I personally know of many examples of couples who were thought to be infertile who later found themselves pregnant. One couple I know persued every possible infertility treatment. When all hope was exhausted they stopped trying to have children themselves and turned to adoption. In the very same month when they finalized their adoption of a beautiful baby girl, they discovered that the wife was pregnant. Another example includes a couple who had decided not to have children. The woman's tubes had been tied many years prior to her finding out she was pregnant.

      2) The fact that there are other avenues for reproductivity is merely argument that society should take an interest in those other avenues, and in reality, it does. The fact remains that the same-sex union itself did not result in offspring and so society's interest in that union is considerably reduced.

      The State and I cannot ignore the responsibility of what my wife and I can create. My marriage is a commitment to my spouse, but even more relevant to the state it is a commitment to my children. Barring death, I will be there for my children even after they are capable of caring for themselves and their own children.

      Same-sex partners want to marginalize the commitment to my children with a definition of marriage as simply an acknowledgement that my wife and I love each other. Inviting government to take an interest in my feelings for my wife opens up a Pandora's box of unprecedented government intrusiveness. The fact that governm

    14. Re:Moral Discussion by GlassHeart · · Score: 1
      In the US a child genetically related to only one parent is extremely rare.

      Based on data presented by a religious group, the divorce rate in the US is about 20% to 30%. Any children produced in these marriages will be related to only one parent in the event of a remarriage. On what basis do you conclude "extremely rare"?

      In the face of proof you have simply reverted to a self-fulfilling sample. Think about it; those who think they cannot change have not and are in your sampling and those that think they can change have and are therefore not in your sampling.

      I entirely agree that assuming homosexuals know correctly that they cannot change their sexual orientation is not a strong position. This is why I referred to it as a fallback in the absence of proof.

      Now I ask you to think about it: if you can change, perhaps you weren't ever really a homosexual. In other words, you are logically just as unable to draw conclusion from those who changed than those who remained.

      Answer #1 conflicts with #2, to wit "I simply don't feel that everybody deserves to be born equal in every way," yet you say, "From all appearances homosexuals [need] equal treatment."

      No, it doesn't. Answer #1 says a person who was born without an arm cannot ask society to make good that arm. Answer #2 says a person cannot be treated differently than others by the state without just cause. Making everybody equal - nevermind it being impossible - is not society's job. Treating each person equally before the law, on the other hand, is common sense to lawful societies. Put another way, just because I don't think the government should pay someone $1M for losing a leg, I also don't think the government should deny that same person the right to marry because he lacks a leg.

      Also answer #3 does not answer the question.

      Then allow me to try again. I am reluctant to comment on what is natural. What do you call a woman, armed with modern knowledge, who times her sex acts to improve chances of conception? What do you call artificial insemination? One can take a definition that any conscious act to affect pregnancy is unnatural, which includes all of the above and of course asexual reproduction. One can also take a definition that anything that can happen in nature is natural. This is a philosophical or religious distinction that a government separated from the church has no business determining.

      1) Through what intrusive, all knowing crystal ball will we determine who truly cannot have children and who can?

      A heterosexual woman with her ovaries removed has less chance today of bearing children than a homosexual woman. Yet the former can marry, the latter cannot.

      The fact remains that the same-sex union itself did not result in offspring and so society's interest in that union is considerably reduced.

      As long as there are more unwanted children than there are willing and able adoptive parents, the state should in fact be interested in any union that will take good care of these children.

      Furthermore, this line of reasoning suggests that if homosexual reproduction is as easy and safe as heterosexual reproduction, then there would be no opposition. Unfortunately science doesn't move fast enough to watch people eat their own words, but unless you agree with this point I must suspect you are merely hiding behind it.

      My marriage is a commitment to my spouse, but even more relevant to the state it is a commitment to my children.

      So you think heterosexual couples who do not wish to have children are "marginalizing" your commitment to your children, and should not be allowed to marry?

      Look, if it's about children, then heterosexuals who do not want children cannot be exempt.

      Same-sex partners want to marginalize the commitment to my children with a definition of marriage as simply an acknowledgement that my wife and I love each other.

      This is as silly as saying other government employe

    15. Re:Moral Discussion by On+Lawn · · Score: 1

      In the US, a heterosexual couple with a child genetically related to only one parent is not exactly rare.

      In the US a child genetically related to only one parent is extremely rare.

      On what basis do you conclude "extremely rare"?

      Um, the basis you provided. Perhaps your problem is as simple as you do not know the meaning of "genetically related"?

      [A]ssuming homosexuals know correctly that they cannot change their sexual orientation is not a strong position.

      Nor would it be for hypochondriacs (the other example provided). Moving on...

      Answer #1 says a person who was born without an arm cannot ask society to make good that arm. Answer #2 says a person cannot be treated differently than others by the state without just cause.

      Exactly, you say that a handicap is not a reason for compensation but while handicapped people are getting compensated lets give it to everyone.

      You don't see the contradiction in that? Then where is my social security disability check and why are you not asking the government to give it to me?

      In this same-gender debate you are not arguing that handicapped couples should not get married you are asking that homosexual couples be grated marriage and the same compensations given infertile couples. Thats not arguing that against social security disability checks, so where is mine?

      No, if you don't mind me saying that is absolute absurdity. Sure you believe that way, but it to me is absurdity. I like the system as it is. I like how society tries to compensate for handicaps. It provides assistence to the blind to help them be self-sufficient. It helps the deaf to hear and be productive members of society. It helps the infertilebecome loving parents. The state gets the benefit of increased productivity and expression of individuality. These are all good things.

      Then allow me to try again. I am reluctant to comment on what is natural...What do you call artificial insemination?

      Did you really mean to write that? No really, did you? If you are going to muddy up the water in your retreat, you need to use less contrasting phrases than, "what is natural?" and "what do you call artificial insimination?"

      Again you haven't answered the question, and you aren't even doing a good job of obscuring the question. Please answer the question, and address the contradiction of your answers to number #1 and #2.

      And I've referred the author of the 800lb gorilla to this conversation to respond to your comments (if the author wishes to).

      So you'd grant marriage to two heterosexuals who explicitly tell you they don't want children,

      Why should I trust the two heterosexuals? Would you trust a person buying a gun who said "I promise I'll never use it".

      deny them to two homosexuals who tell you they want children, and still claim it's about the children?

      Marriage is not a "them" so I'll infer that you mean children here too. So if homosexuals really wanted to have children, if they really knew the value of marriage, if they felt just a tenth of what I described they would (I say unequivicably) crawl on their hands and knees to find someone of the opposite sex to accomplish it with. Becuase they would know without a doubt that they would need someone of the opposite sex. Its not a luxury, its not an accessory its a "neccessity".

      You equate a relationship between an optimal homosexual couple and a handicapped heterosexual couple, and you say "treating each person equally before the law ... is common sense to lawful societies." Its like saying if I'm lazy I can work as much as a blind person, so gimme my social security disability check. Or your example applies here too, "This is as silly as saying other government employees who want a raise are marginalizing your sacrifices and patriotism to your country because you are willing to serve at the lower pay."

      Oh, and if

    16. Re:Moral Discussion by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
      1) Through what intrusive, all knowing crystal ball will we determine who truly cannot have children and who can?

      A heterosexual woman with her ovaries removed has less chance today of bearing children than a homosexual woman. Yet the former can marry, the latter cannot.

      Clumsy attempt at deflection. Not only do you not answer the question, you try to shield yourself using a false assertion. 1) The homosexual woman is allowed to marry, just as the heterosexual woman is. 2) The homosexual union is sterile, the heterosexual union is not. Now, answer the question. "Through what intrusive, all knowing crystal ball will we determine who truly cannot have children and who can?"
      The fact remains that the same-sex union itself did not result in offspring and so society's interest in that union is considerably reduced.

      As long as there are more unwanted children than there are willing and able adoptive parents, the state should in fact be interested in any union that will take good care of these children.

      Here you attempt to run from the 800lb gorilla by steering straight into it. You provide a theory of state interest in homosexual unions that is not only not unique to that union, but dependent on a prior interest in heterosexual unions that is unique to that union, i.e., procreation.
      Furthermore, this line of reasoning suggests that if homosexual reproduction is as easy and safe as heterosexual reproduction, then there would be no opposition.
      No, it doesn't. It argues that the state will have an interest in whatever form of reproduction you hypothesize, not in the homosexual union itself which is not reproductive.
      My marriage is a commitment to my spouse, but even more relevant to the state it is a commitment to my children.

      So you think heterosexual couples who do not wish to have children are "marginalizing" your commitment to your children, and should not be allowed to marry?

      No. See the question you refused to answer, above.
      Look, if it's about children, then heterosexuals who do not want children cannot be exempt.
      Wants do not equal reality.
      Same-sex partners want to marginalize the commitment to my children with a definition of marriage as simply an acknowledgement that my wife and I love each other.

      This is as silly as saying other government employees who want a raise are marginalizing your sacrifices and patriotism to your country because you are willing to serve at the lower pay.

      Strawman. A better example would be if the state redefined government service as a duty and not as employment and therefore no longer needed to pay. Another example would be if my university decided to redefine "diploma" to mean simply that I had visited the campus. Your example is nowhere close.
      Even when two people are divorcing they cannot use a lack of love as grounds.

      There are many things wrong with this statement.

      Surely you will enlighten us.
      So-called "no fault divorce" is legal in some states, so "lack of love" is certainly an acceptable reason to the government (as is any other reason).
      This is inane. Where no grounds are required none are accepted.
      Therefore, adultery, abandonment, or cruelty are grounds for divorce, while "lack of love" is not explicitly listed.
      OK... So what is wrong with it is that it is correct. Hmmmmmmm... Interesting approach.

      You did not refute that defining society's interest in marriage as simply an expression of love "opens up a Pandora's box of unprecedented government intrusiveness." You cannot argue for such a redefinition without addressing this fact.

    17. Re:Moral Discussion by shiftless · · Score: 1

      And having children is hardly a reason to marry anymore.

      Excuse me? A minority of freaks doesn't change the basic facts of our culture- marriage is an institution, established between a man and a woman, for the purpose of raising a family.

    18. Re:Moral Discussion by Tiram · · Score: 1

      Do you seriously consider people freaks for choosing to live together without getting married? In several Western countries it is even the norm to live together for a while. Some marry after years of co-habitation, others never marry at all. And when people do marry, it is usually for romantic or practical reasons, which often have nothing to do with children.

      The "institution of marriage" has never been the unchanging, holy union some would like to see it as, not even in recent US history. Up until fairly recently, marriage was a arrangement between two families, not the romantic one-on-one affair we currently see as the ideal.

      If by "freaks" you mean gays and lesbians, I can only pity you. There is noe reasoning with homophobia.

      --
      The knuckles, the horrible knuckles!
      (I'm a girl, you know)
    19. Re:Moral Discussion by shiftless · · Score: 1

      The "institution of marriage" has never been the unchanging, holy union some would like to see it as, not even in recent US history. Up until fairly recently, marriage was a arrangement between two families, not the romantic one-on-one affair we currently see as the ideal.

      Right- but the point is to have children and raise a family. No, it's not explicitly stated, because it's too obvious.

      If by "freaks" you mean gays and lesbians, I can only pity you. There is noe reasoning with homophobia.

      Save your "pity". I love how you fuckers throw the "homophobe" word around when someone (me) announces his dislike for gays/lesbians. I guess I could call you a "homophile" then, for liking them? You people claim to be ultra-tolerant, yet you can't tolerate a dissenting opinion?

    20. Re:Moral Discussion by Tiram · · Score: 1

      Right - but the point is to have children and raise a family. No, it's not explicitly stated, because it's too obvious.

      The obvious question to ask in reply to that is of course: Why should we allow non-breeding heterosexuals to marry then? And you don't need to marry to have children.

      I love how you fuckers throw the "homophobe" word around when someone (me) announces his dislike for gays/lesbians. I guess I could call you a "homophile" then, for liking them? You people claim to be ultra-tolerant, yet you can't tolerate a dissenting opinion?

      Someone who discribes a group of people as "freaks" harbours more than mere dislike, I think. Face it honey, you're homophobic.

      "Homophile" means more or less the same as "homosexual", so that wouldn't really work. Love isn't the opposite of phobia, anyway. You don't seem to take dissent very well yourself. At least I'm not resorting to name-calling. As for me, I'm generally very tolerant. The only thing I can't stand is intolerant people.

      (Are we far enough off topic yet, viewers? :)

      --
      The knuckles, the horrible knuckles!
      (I'm a girl, you know)
    21. Re:Moral Discussion by God!+Awful+2 · · Score: 1

      Sure, why retaliate if somebody flies an airplane into a building? Every single one of the victims would've died of something anyway. The terrorists just sped it up.

      [Posting to wrong discussion, since I moderated the other one.]

      A very lucid comment; I'll have to remember that one. It's a shame that the other people who replied didn't get it.

      I generally try to avoid using any kind of analogy on /. since they always cause posters to go off on irrelevant tangents.

      -a

  28. Also in The Independent by mostaphalles · · Score: 3, Interesting


    Story in The Independent is also a good read.

  29. Oh, that's just GREAT. by Adam+Schumacher · · Score: 4, Funny

    Now that women have this, combined with a device to open jars, we men are officially obsolete.

    1. Re:Oh, that's just GREAT. by RocketJeff · · Score: 1
      Now that women have this, combined with a device to open jars, we men are officially obsolete.
      There's still Lawn Maintenance.
    2. Re:Oh, that's just GREAT. by nova20 · · Score: 1
      There's still Lawn Maintenance

      ...and don't forget pest removal

      /nova20

    3. Re:Oh, that's just GREAT. by rossy · · Score: 1

      There is a device to open jars? Damn! Don't tell my wife! But I can still take out the garbage, and put the toilet paper rolls in the little springy thing.

      --
      Ross Youngblood
  30. They do, but... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    what does this have to do with this article?

  31. Not only does this help remove the need for men... by jamieswith · · Score: 5, Interesting

    But I would have thought that it also removed the possibility of men being produced by this method... I'm not a biology nerd, so I might be completely wrong, but I just can't see where the 'Y' chromasome would come from in order to be able to make a boy!

  32. I believe.. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    the spider in the corner will attest otherwise....

  33. Lesbian society by 0x0d0a · · Score: 3, Interesting

    So now it's actually feasible for a purely lesbian society to exist and reproduce?

    This should pose some interesting questions for the Christian right's arguments against homosexuality based on infeasiblity of universalization in nature.

    1. Re:Lesbian society by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
      So now it's actually feasible for a purely lesbian society to exist and reproduce? This should pose some interesting questions for the Christian right's arguments against homosexuality based on infeasiblity of universalization in nature.

      Fsck that, it poses some superb camcorder subject material!

    2. Re:Lesbian society by Hogwash+McFly · · Score: 1

      But camcorders (along with men) will be banned under the Lesbian World Order due to being used in many years of female exploitation! We men will be forever doomed to live in the sewers, surfacing only to steal food from our Lesbian Overlords.

      --
      Mother, do you think they'll like this sig?
    3. Re:Lesbian society by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      This should pose some interesting questions for the Christian right's arguments against homosexuality based on infeasiblity of universalization in nature.

      You said it. In nature. This case wasn't natural, but artifficial.

  34. Great by vossman77 · · Score: 0, Redundant

    Great, now women will finally realize that men ARE truly useless and rid the planet of us.

  35. Not exactly parthenogenesis by Remik · · Score: 3, Insightful

    IIRC, parthenogenesis is what's known in laymen's terms as a 'virgin birth' phenomenon, in which an egg fertilizes itself after being tricked into believing that it has received DNA from another parent. There is only one contributor of genetic material, making the offspring a clone of the parent.

    In this experiment, DNA was received from two sources, both of them just happened to be female. This difference is profound, because it produced the effects of traditional genetics, (hold on to those Punnett squares!) without the need for males.

    -R

  36. Mmm.. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I for one support lesbian parenting.

  37. welcome them by castlec · · Score: 1

    I for one, welcome our new fatherless overlords

    --
    When I tell an object to delete this, am I killing it or telling it to kill me?
    1. Re:welcome them by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Overladies surely?

  38. Obviously... by UncleBiggims · · Score: 1

    The Tokyo University Femputer order the mice to have snoo-snoo.

  39. You know what I like about PETA? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    one of their executive members uses animal products contributing to animal research, testing and medical products through her insisting on taking insulin to stay alive, and they kill something like 50% of the dogs they take in a year. Ethical appearently means do as we say not as we do.

    1. Re:You know what I like about PETA? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      PETA often does stupid things, but this has to be the most ridiculous complaint against them I have ever seen. You have a problem with someone using insulin (from GE bacteria) to stay alive? Finding homes for abandoned animals isn't easy. If they find homes for 50% of them, thats great! I'm sure they would love to help all of them, but if they don't have the money to feed the other 50% and they can't find somebody to adopt them, they can either put them down humanely or let them starve. If you don't like it, adopt a dog. Either way, get a fucking grip man!

    2. Re:You know what I like about PETA? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      We have to thank dogs for insulin. We didn't go straight to bacteria. She would deny people future breakthroughs like insulin. To say nothing of modern medical products that use animals, such as anti-venom from horses, or vaccines.

      On the dogs, I'd make the observation that they can survive quite well on their own. We don't euthanise homeless people, or their pets. The choice to make a special exception in the case for dogs is both inconsistant with necessity and their idiology. Even selling the dogs into medical research, and checking to make sure the research is properly performed might be more humane.

      I feel sorry for hypocrits, can I just kill them?

      Oh and they kill the dogs by freezing them to death. I guess killing them humanely is just too expensive. That's not ethical either.

  40. Just because by 53cur!ty · · Score: 1
    Just because we can, doesn't mean we should. Isn't that what we learned from the atomic bomb?

    Yeah, yeah, there is a big difference, but in the extremes lies the truth.

    Where the answers are

  41. Two mothers by jandersen · · Score: 1

    - as if that was anything. Balder the Asa had 9.

  42. Hi. I'm Troy McClure by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Hi. I'm Troy McClure. You might recall me from such two-mouse-mother movies as Disney's "Minnie and Minnie" and "Danger Mouse meets Diversity"

  43. There go's my pick up line and.. by Onceat · · Score: 1

    Please dont tell the man haters about this, they are looking for any excuse to send us back to mars Woman are from venus , men are from bars

  44. The writing is on the wall, fellas... by Progman3K · · Score: 1

    We, as a species (males) have to come up with something, ANYTHING to make women keep needing us.

    Scratching yourself and burping doesn't count.

    --
    I don't know the meaning of the word 'don't' - J
    1. Re:The writing is on the wall, fellas... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Removing spiders and fixing cars are the things that most immediately come to mind. Face it, they wouldn't be able to live in their houses *or* leave them without us!

    2. Re:The writing is on the wall, fellas... by Progman3K · · Score: 1

      >Removing spiders and fixing cars are the things that most immediately come to mind. Face it, they wouldn't be able to live in their houses *or* leave them without us!

      Dude, you shouldn't have posted that anonymously, now the Nobel committee won't know where to send the award!

      --
      I don't know the meaning of the word 'don't' - J
  45. Like the saying goes.... by shplorb · · Score: 2, Funny

    Dip me in honey and throw me to the lesbians!

  46. Next stage is to make you obsolete as well. by Moderation+abuser · · Score: 1

    So don't sweat it love.

    http://observer.guardian.co.uk/international/sto ry /0,6903,648024,00.html

    Tomorrow's world belongs to the machines.

    --
    Government of the people, by corporate executives, for corporate profits.
  47. Fascinating by sw155kn1f3 · · Score: 2, Funny

    OK, when they will do the same with two MALE mouses, I'll eat my shoe, I swear :)

    --
    - Arwen, I'm your father, Agent Smith.
    - Well, you're just Smith, but my father is Aerosmith!
  48. As Lesbians everywhere rejoice... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    ...No more hitting up David Crosby for sperm donations (er, maybe we should all rejoice)

  49. That bastard!! by erroneus · · Score: 1

    Sorry... I just had to be the first to say it... but I'm a slow writer so someone else is writing the same thing probably so I'm not actually the first... maybe...

    I read on PopSci a couple months back that men are doomed to obsolescence... I guess it might happen sooner than they predicted.

  50. the first impression... by zogger · · Score: 1

    .. you get is this is a brand new technology, but I had this memory of reading about it many years ago concerning rabbits. That's why I asked if anyone had better info, etc, to correct me if I was remembering erroneously. It's no biggee really.

  51. We know when we're not wanted by Linsaran · · Score: 0

    If women don't need us for reproduction anymore, where will us straight guys get our sex?

    --
    In a bit of shameless internet panhandling, I accept Litecoin Donations at Lbd2oH9QsthD1GfuUXPyka12YxvWJYnBVf
  52. This "relationship" you speak of.... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    They have names for it where I come from. "Friend" or "Sucker" depending on who you ask.

  53. Re:Baby Jesus -- need a source for Y chromosome! by elwinc · · Score: 1
    Most biology students, when they first learn about parthenogenisis, arrive at the Jesus question. However, with two mothers, a baby only has X chromosomes to choose from. To make a male, you need one X and one Y. You can't just "break off a branch" to make a Y, so you can't explain Jesus with parthenogenisis (however, the milkman theory is still viable).

    As for the question of whether males are now superfluous, the answer is: not quite yet. It's true that an all female population could reproduce itself, but the males would still be needed for opening those tough mayonnaise and jelly jars!

    --
    --- Often in error; never in doubt!
  54. We don't need the men. . . by kfg · · Score: 1, Funny

    We don't need the men.
    We don't need to have 'em 'round,
    except for now and then.
    They can come to see us,
    When we need to move the piano,
    Otherwise they can stay at home
    and holler at the Yankees.

    We don't care about them.
    We can do without them.
    They'll look cute in a bathing suit
    on a billboard in Madagascar

    -Malvina Reynolds (who also authored "Little Boxes")

    1. Re:We don't need the men. . . by operagost · · Score: 0, Offtopic

      Don't think she'll be competing with Maya Angelou for Poet Laureate of the United States any time soon.

      --

      Gamingmuseum.com: Give your 3D accelerator a rest.
    2. Re:We don't need the men. . . by kfg · · Score: 2, Informative

      Well, you understand, don't you, that Poet Laureate is a position that most poets hold in derision? So much so that a while ago California was begging for applicants and couldn't find one.

      The title is bestowed as a curse, not a blessing, like a white elephant.

      Even given that, Malvina was a lyricist, not a poet, with a special knack for humorous songs, and you really have to hear that one performed. It's quite funny, but just doesn't come across the same in print.

      Given even that she could turn a phrase or two. If you want to hear her a bit more poetically inclined check out "Look What They've Done to the Rain." An anti-nuclear testing song that never once mentions nuclear testing or being anti to it.

      "Just a little boy, standing in the rain
      The gentle rain that falls for years."

      That song, unlike "We Don't Need the Men," rhymes though, which as I understand it is not "the in thing" in poetry at the moment.

      See Robert Frost's response to the same criticism.

      KFG

    3. Re:We don't need the men. . . by operagost · · Score: 1
      Well, you understand, don't you, that Poet Laureate is a position that most poets hold in derision?
      That kind of elitism is the reason why the public at large doesn't read poetry and doesn't give a shit about it. I'm lucky I had a high school teacher who showed me the expressive potential of poetry. That exposure improved both my prose and my lyric writing. Today? A bunch of talentless snobs that young people would be wise to ignore.
      --

      Gamingmuseum.com: Give your 3D accelerator a rest.
    4. Re:We don't need the men. . . by kfg · · Score: 1

      Actually it's antielitism. It's the poet laureate who is practicing elitism. It's a government title that is historically assigned to the sort of mediocre hack that governments find attractive. The attitude isn't even modern, it goes back thousands of years. Yes, I'm aware that antielitism can form it's peculiar elitist quality.

      I was lucky enough to not attend high school, and so I got to appreciate poetry on my own. When I was eleven my mother was renting an apartment to an English professor and one day I wandered down the stairs, knocked on her door, and asked if she had a copy of the Iliad I could borrow. She subsequently went to my mother and said something along the lines of, "Who is this kid of yours? I can't force my college students to read the Iliad."

      I'm afraid I rather agree with your assesment of the modern class of "poet" though. Shelly seems to have set the modern model for poet as "artiste" and Whitman seems to set the model for there being no "rules." Woody Guthrie once made a marginal note in his notebook warning himself to avoid "the swimmy waters of free verse."

      Nothing wrong with free verse, per se, but it takes a master like Whitman to pull it off with success. When you break the "rules" you really have to know what the hell you're doing. Just because you've managed to scribble a few words on paper doesn't make it poetry, no matter how profound you think it is. (Hence the observation that there ought to be a law that poets not be allowed to perform their own works. At least one other person should be shown to appreciate it enough to perform it).

      I'd love to see a return of the popularity of metrical verse. One has to play with a net, but still has broad range of expression. See any soliloquy in Shakespeare.

      KFG

  55. It' Dupe! by oddmake · · Score: 1

    I see the same story on slashdot!

    Oh ,sorry...this is slashdot japan

  56. This will not do! by OptimoosePrime · · Score: 0

    We can't have bastard mice running around!

    --
    796F75617265616E65726400
  57. On comments: obvious by pinkUZI · · Score: 1

    The process by which this was accomplished (parthenogenesis) does not naturally occur in mammals.

    Nothing like stating the obvious.

    --
    You are receiving this message because your browser supports Slashdot Sigs and you have Slashdot Sigs enabled.
  58. And the question parents dread... by Nugbolz · · Score: 3, Funny

    Imagine finally having The Talk with your pubescent kid. The birds and the birds? The bees and the bees... and the scientists??
    Parthenogenesis... H19... Igf2... How would you explain it?

    Q: Mum, where do babies come from?
    A: Eh? What? Ask your OTHER mother.

    --
    ((U+C+I) x (10-S))/20 x A x 1/(1-sin(F/10))
    1. Re:And the question parents dread... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Funny

      The birds and the birds? The bees and the bees... and the scientists??

      Actually, that's something I never quite figured out. Not sex, I mean the precise nature of the 'birds and bees' metaphor. I wouldn't expect to get anything from a union between birds and bees. And if we did, wouldn't it be some sort of giant feathered bee with a beak? Those would be terrible!

    2. Re:And the question parents dread... by Jorkapp · · Score: 1

      I tried to mate a bird with a bee once...

      All I got a really bad rash from the sting.

      --
      Frink: Nice try floyd, but you were designed for scrubbing, and scrubbing is what you shall do.
  59. And the research was sponsored by... by hovercraftSpareWheel · · Score: 1

    A consortium of greetings card manufacturers and florists. Or am I being too cynical?

  60. Yawn by lacrymology.com · · Score: 1

    Wake me up when they've created twin mice from one mother and many different fathers. The fathers must be smart... perhaps super-stars at navigating mazes, and the twins must be quite different. Perhaps one can be extremely strong, brilliant, and Austrian, while the other should be the genetic waste of the first making him short, bald, and Italian. ONLY THEN will you have my attention.
    -m

    --

    #
    # Modus Ponens
    #
  61. Sexmission? by Helish · · Score: 2, Funny

    I think some one has been watching this movie too many times.

    1. Re:Sexmission? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Damn, I totally forgot about that movie.

      Thanks for reminding me. Now off to find it on the net somewhere :-)

  62. As the doctor said to the mouse... by cwest · · Score: 2, Funny

    You won't even feel a little prick.

  63. FYI: About the Y Chromosome by TheWhaleShark · · Score: 2, Informative

    The information on the X chromosome consists mostly of "housekeeping" genes; the only one I remember offhand is an enzyme used in the Kreb's cycle.

    The Y chromosome is almost entirely useless; the only gene found on the Y chromosome is TDF, Testes Determining Factor. As you know, female is the default sex in mammals; TDF activates partway through fetal development and tells the embryo to develop testes instead of ovaries.

    I'm not sure about the Y chromosome being a mutant form of the X; AFAIK, the two are radically different and contain very little similar genetic information.

    --
    "It never got weird enough for me." - HST (RIP)
    1. Re:FYI: About the Y Chromosome by trewornan · · Score: 1

      The Y chromosome is almost entirely useless; the only gene found on the Y chromosome is TDF, Testes Determining Factor.

      Actually the Y chromosome has been found to code for 27 different proteins although, as you say, these all seem to be related to sexual differentiation (unsurprisingly).

    2. Re:FYI: About the Y Chromosome by Noehre · · Score: 4, Informative

      The gene is called SRY.

      And idea that SRY is the only functional/useful gene on the Y chromosome was debunked years ago. Dozens of genes have since been found on the Y chromosome.

  64. Fear not slashdot users by Prince+Vegeta+SSJ4 · · Score: 2, Funny
    now species threatened from a lack of suitable mates [stuff.co.nz], could be quite possibly saved

    There is STILL hope!.

  65. Parthenocarpy by LothDaddy · · Score: 3, Informative

    I'd like to clarify this a bit. Many plants DO/CAN reproduce "sexually" without crossing with another individual, wheat is an example. They actually self-pollenate (self-mate), a fine distinction from parthenocarpy, which is fruit/seed production without any pollenation (fertilization). While the progreny of a selfed plant essentially have the sample genes, crossing-over and other genetic events usually result in the chromosomes not being identical.

  66. Let me be the first... by James+McP · · Score: 2, Funny

    To welcome our new lesbian overlords!

    --
    I've been on slashdot so long I'm starting to get out of touch with the cool stuff if it ain't on slashdot.
  67. "two fathers" should be possible by peter303 · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Any of the four combinations of parents should be possible then. Its been known for some time that parental chromosomes retain parental markers. The two mother experiement made female chromosomes look male.

    The recent book "The X Chromosome" has several interesting chapters about the slight differences between the parental chromosomes. The cells in a female body mostly disable the second X chromosome. The disabled chromosome actaully separates into a chunk called a Barr body. Most of the time, only one parental X is turned off. But in some cases a female is a genetic mosaic with the mother-X turned on in some tissues, and the father in the other. It is thought this might partly explain why females have a much higher incidence of auto-immune diseases like lupus: Some have two different genomes expressed and each side attacks the other.
    A small fraction of children may have the wrong number of X chromosomes- from 1 to 4, plus maybe a Y. There may be some gender anomalies. But because the extra X's are mostly turned off, it is not fatal.

    1. Re:"two fathers" should be possible by salimma · · Score: 3, Informative
      Any of the four combinations of parents should be possible then.

      Yes, but you'd then need a female to donate eggs, remove the host egg's chromosomes and inject in the two fathers' DNA.

      Sounds rather more risky, with more trauma being done to the egg, and the failure rate would be higher due to the possibility of Y-Y pairings which would be unviable.

      --
      Michel
      Fedora Project Contribut
  68. scared by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I am scared I truley am. God damn feminazis are going to use this to take over the world

  69. Mods... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Can you please read comments before moderating them offtopic? It makes you look like less of a retard when it comes to metamod. Ok thanks!

  70. Errata by kfg · · Score: 1

    That should be, "What Have They Done to the Rain?"

    I'm phase shifting and my brain is fuzzy. Time to go to bed.

    KFG

  71. RA Heinlein by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Does this idea form a significant part of one of the sub-plots in Robert Heinlein's "Time Enough For Love", the bit about the twin's brought up to be a breeding pair.

  72. How about Parrotfish DNA splicing by Creepy · · Score: 1

    In case you don't know, Parrotfish (and Wrasses) are born female and become male after about 5 years (protogynous hermaphrodites, if you want the technical term). A rough guesstimate in human years, that's probably 30-40.

    Women get what they want (30-40 year olds with experience) and men get what they want (young nubile females).

    What more can you ask :)

    Two drawbacks - craving for coral, and the lack of intercourse (males fertilize eggs that are laid)... I'm sure they could fix that somehow.

    If that didn't work out, there's always Protandrous hermaphrodites (start as male, become female), but I think that mainly exists in some kind of worm (tapeworm or roundworm or something like that).

    Another option is the gobie, which swaps back and forth. Not sure if that would work so well in people, though - I can see one big metamorphasis, but doing it all the time seems pretty extreme... then again, I do have a lot of stored calories I'd like to burn.

    btw, I'm a diver, not a marine biologist or geneticist, so this could be a really bad idea. I'm just laying out the options :)

  73. Tokyo? by dominyx · · Score: 0

    Does it worry anyone else that the already overpopulated Tokyo is looking for new and improved ways to make babies?

  74. On Gay Marriage (Re:Lesbian society) by mi · · Score: 4, Interesting

    [Hey, I'm not starting an off-topic thread, I'm merely continuing it :-)]

    Not only are the usual methods of getting children -- "unpleasant sex" and adoption, but this method will also be available to (at least) some homosexual couples.

    The "Christian Right" (not just Christian, and not just "right") are correct in saying, it diminishes the traditional concept of marriage. However, IMHO, the concept is long diminished through other, perfectly heterosexual means. And it is not anyone's fault in particular. The economies have changed. A single parent can raise a child or two (even without government help). Having a good partner in life is not as important to survive as it used to be.

    The "sanctity of marriage" is important for the Society only because it leads to more (and better) children. That's why the State affords special protections and privileges to married (as opposed to co-habitating) couples -- in inheritance, in not testifying against each other, etc.

    Yet children tend to grow up better having two parents. There are no statistics that show, children in homosexual couples grow better or worse off.

    Here is my proposal to the conundrum of gay marriage. Change all laws, that apply to "married couples," to apply to "any pair of people involved in raising children" (the exact formula should be phrased better, of course, it has to mention mutual devotion and loyalty -- borrow from the classic definition of marriage).

    The actual acts of marriage should stop being administered by the State (both directly through mayors and through licensing). People, who wish to publicly swear their mutual love, respect, and devotion are still very welcome to do that (banning people of same sex from such expressions is directly against the 1st Amendment) in places of their choosing (including government buildings even), but it should not be the State's business.

    The State's business only begins when a couple gives birth to (regardless of the conception method) or adopts a child -- that's when it qualifies for the privileges now afforded to the married only.

    This way, the Society will reward exactly those it should want to, regardless of their sexual orientation, which is not, regretfully, a voluntary choice, it seems.

    --
    In Soviet Washington the swamp drains you.
    1. Re:On Gay Marriage (Re:Lesbian society) by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      So you're saying I should lose any privileges and protections of marriage (for example my power of attorney to make medical decisions for my spouse if he is incapacitated) if we chose not to be breeders and add to overpopulation. Nice. Our society rewards breeding too much already.

    2. Re:On Gay Marriage (Re:Lesbian society) by On+Lawn · · Score: 0, Troll

      There are no statistics that show, children in homosexual couples grow better or worse off.

      One of the problems is that you have such a wide gammut of heterosexual couples to compare too. When it comes down to it, the current research seems to indicate that a homosexual couple is slightly more successful in raising children than single parent families. Your suggestion that actual child birth (or adoption) consumates a marriage is interesting, and certainly speaks to the need for marriage.

      However Adoption should be considered as a way to help infertile couples overcome a handicapp. There is a value to the state in helping people compensate for things they naturally would be capable of. Its demonstrated in the parking spaces, ramps, wheelchairs around us. However I do not support what would amount to being a subsidy for homosexuality (debated in sig).

      The actual acts of marriage should stop being administered by the State

      Actually the state just recognizes marriages. Well not entirely true, the State does provide a purely secular "Justice of the Peace" that performs marriages. The 800lb gorilla dictates that the state has a deep secular interest in marriage (just in case you feel the state should get out of the "marriage" business as in getting out of the religious morass of marriage). Besides, pushing the debate from marriage to "Civil Unions" does not remove the morass it just plays a shell game with the confusion. Its like arranging the deck chairs in the Titanic.

      This way, the Society will reward exactly those it should want to, regardless of their sexual orientation, which is not, regretfully, a voluntary choice, it seems.

      This is where the question turns. Is Homosexuality a disability or not? Is it a handicap? It certainly has the elements. One, the person can not choose out of their condition (as you suggest is true for homosexuals). Second it is diabilitating (as homosexual couples cannot reproduce). Yet no where is homosexuality considered a handicap. In my review, the strongest indicator of ones sexual preference is their personal choice. People can change.

      I liken it to hypocondria, another condition where the person feels it is in their body not in their mind (even though hypocondria may in fact be determined in part by genetic and environmental factors also). While hypocondria (as with homosexualiy) appears to be changeable (I don't use the word cured because one isn't cured of a choice) they find that a large portion of them simply walk away whenever it is suggested in the discussion that they have the power to change their outlook on life. They leave when it is suggested that "its in your mind".

    3. Re:On Gay Marriage (Re:Lesbian society) by mi · · Score: 1
      Your suggestion that actual child birth (or adoption) consumates a marriage is interesting, and certainly speaks to the need for marriage.

      That's not, what I am suggesting. My idea is that it is the child-rearing by a couple and not their marriage per se, that is important to the Society. I am saying, that any couple involved in child-rearing deserves the "subsidy" -- regardless of their sexual orientation, and of who the child's physical parents are. I'm not arguing for "subsidizing homosexuality" any more, than a proponent of school vouchers argues for "subsidizing religion".

      I'm not proposing the Law redefines marriage or, indeed, its consummation. I suggest, these definitions are left to people with their religious beliefs, convictions, and prejudices and have no legal meaning. Not even child births are important enough, IMO, to justify the "subsidy". Only the child-rearing (which normally, but not always, follows the birth) is. Any couple engaged in such rearing (whether it is a "civil union" or, indeed, "marriage" is, indeed, an unimportant word-play).

      However Adoption should be considered as a way to help infertile couples overcome a handicap. There is a value to the state in helping people compensate for things they naturally would be capable of.

      Is not it already?

      This is where the question turns. Is Homosexuality a disability or not? Is it a handicap?

      This is a very sensitive question emotionally, but, fortunately, we don't need an answer to it to discuss my proposal. We agree, that two adults are better for a child's development than one, and that the adults' homosexuality does not seem to be inherently detrimental to the child's development...

      --
      In Soviet Washington the swamp drains you.
    4. Re:On Gay Marriage (Re:Lesbian society) by mi · · Score: 2, Insightful
      for example my power of attorney to make medical decisions for my spouse if he is incapacitated)

      Why should a wife of three years have automatic power of attorney of her husband, while a girlfriend of ten years does not have such power over her loving and loved boyfriend? In both cases the partner can explicitly assign such powers to each other...

      if we chose not to be breeders and add to overpopulation.

      So long as the increase of the population is considered desirable by Society -- yes, I think, that it is silly for the Society to encourage things, which usually lead to such increases (marriage), as opposite to the actual increases themselves.

      But it is not only (nor so much) the quantity I'm aiming for, but the quality. If you read carefully, I'm proposing we equally reward people adopting children...

      The quantity is not additionally encouraged either -- my plan in itself does not encourage multiple children at all. One is enough...

      Our society rewards breeding too much already.

      That's debatable. In 18th and most of the 19th centuries, US population was doubling every 20 years... I'm not pushing for that rate, but there is certainly plenty of unsettled land in US, even more in Canada, and the rest of the world.

      I am aware of the view, that humans are the scourge of the Earth, but do not share it... May be, it is just because I am human and "root for my side" :-)

      Don't post as AC if you wish to continue...

      --
      In Soviet Washington the swamp drains you.
    5. Re:On Gay Marriage (Re:Lesbian society) by On+Lawn · · Score: 1, Insightful

      My idea is that it is the child-rearing by a couple and not their marriage per se, that is important to the Society.

      If by marriage you mean "a love and commitment relationship between two people" then I couldn't agree with you more. The state, that I know of, expresses no interest in a couple's love and commitment (although two people getting married will). As discussed in the 800lb gorilla link, it would most certainly be impossible and unconstitutional for the state to even try.

      However, marriage means more than that to many people. Marriage as the foundation for a family and potential for child bearing and raising (as its always been understood to be by the people making and sustaining the laws we have) is just the interest you are speaking to. As you said, "My idea is that it is the child-rearing by a couple ... that is important to the Society."

      Also, we will simply disagree in that I do not find homosexuality something that the state has interest in subsidising. However I will note that it is contradictory to argue that "any couple involved in child-rearing deserves the 'subsidy' -- regardless of their sexual orientation," and suggest that homosexuality should be subsidised as it is most definately regarding sexual orientation. Asking the state to regard homosexuality (a sexual orientation) worthy of subsidy is asking the state to regard sexual orientation! In contrast, infertility (a handicap) is worthy of subsidy and does not consider sexual orientation as handicaps are considered worthy of compensation regardless of sexual orientation.

      I'm not proposing the Law redefines marriage or, indeed, its consummation. I suggest, these definitions are left to people with their religious beliefs, convictions, and prejudices and have no legal meaning.

      As they are currently. In this point we seem agree that nothing that needs to change. Whats important is that marriage is the entrance to a family, and we acnkowledge that procreative power has been bestowed by whatever forces created us to heterosexual couples.

      We agree, that two adults are better for a child's development than one,

      I appreciate this effort in comprimise. As your statements and my statements both seem to say that I can give you that as a true statement. However that does not mean that I believe that any two adults are better than any other two. Indeed a family based with representatives of both genders is clearly advantaged.

      In our society raising your own children is the norm (and even a sought after goal), and while that goal exists homosexuals who are incapable of producing "their own" children will be disadvantaged. That is not solely due to social stigma as research suggests that homosexual couples are only about as good as single parent families or divorced couples. Which we would both agree are only intermediary fall-back positions for people who have not obtained the goal of a solid family.

      and that the adults' homosexuality does not seem to be inherently detrimental to the child's development...

      Your word "inherently" is useful here. As you say "does not seem to inherently" only speaks to the ambigiuty of current studies to pinpoint if sexual orientation of parents determins much of an outcome as the consequences of their lifestyle choice shout much clearer in the compendium of research. For instance, it is argued that the research that shows homosexual couples as about as good a parents as single-parent or divorced couples are a contravance that homosexual couples with children fit in either of the afore mentioned categories.

      What this means to some is that homosexual couples are just not given a fair shake in the study. And that ambiguity leads to the conclusion that "the adults' homosexuality does not seem to be inherently detrimental to the child's development." However, in the

    6. Re:On Gay Marriage (Re:Lesbian society) by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "Why should a wife of three years have automatic power of attorney of her husband, while a girlfriend of ten years does not have such power over her loving and loved boyfriend?"

      Because a marriage is a legal contract that grants exactly such a privilege. I have known my parents since I was born, and I love them dearly, but I don't have power of attorney over them.

      "Don't post as AC if you wish to continue..."

      I am not the grandparent poster, I am a reader without a /. account, nor a desire to create one. I treat all replies as optional.

    7. Re:On Gay Marriage (Re:Lesbian society) by mi · · Score: 1
      I'm not proposing the Law redefines marriage or, indeed, its consummation. I suggest, these definitions are left to people with their religious beliefs, convictions, and prejudices and have no legal meaning.

      As they are currently.

      Not quite. A marriage is conducted by a government official or a licensee... Sometimes it also involves a mandatory health check-up and/or education courses.

      Also, we will simply disagree in that I do not find homosexuality something that the state has interest in subsidising. [...] and suggest that homosexuality should be subsidized [...]

      This was never my proposal. All I'm saying, is that the state should "subsidize" all loving couples, who raise children -- regardless of their sexuality and stop subsidizing childless loving couples -- also without regard for their sexuality. I'm not suggesting, homosexuality deserves any higher (nor lower) subsidy at all.

      The Society has interest in higher quantity and quality of children. It is thus foolish to reward the Marriage itself, merely because of its potential for child bearing and raising, instead of the actual bearing (or adoption) and raising. This point is not even directly linked to gays...

      Now, we are sliding into the gay adoption debate, which is not, what I wanted to discuss, but:

      Your attempts to quantify the detriment of homosexuality of the "parents" are irrelevant to my idea -- you would not argue, that all homosexual couples are worse, than any heterosexual one when it comes to raising children. And even if you would, an assertion, that any heterosexual couple is automaticly worse than a foster home is flat out laughable.

      So such couples' adoption applications should be considered honestly. Even if their sexuality, and other "lifestyle choices" are considered detrimental to their future adopted children, it can still be balanced by other qualities: education, length of relationship, income, health, criminal and credit histories, etc.

      --
      In Soviet Washington the swamp drains you.
    8. Re:On Gay Marriage (Re:Lesbian society) by On+Lawn · · Score: 0, Flamebait

      A marriage is conducted by a government official

      Someone vested with authority to perform marriages is not neccisarily a government official. Those conducting a marriage have been licensed to perform marriages.

      The one handing out the licenses, however, is an official of the state. That btw, is why Gavin Newsome is not in as much hot water as his city officials who granted the licenses in San Fransisco of late.

      Sometimes it also involves a mandatory health check-up and/or education courses.

      Again, here I can only conclude that you are talking about the issuence of a license, not performing the marriage since that is a requirement for being granted a license only. After that a couple with a license is not married until the ceremony is performed by someone vested with the authority by the state. And (hopefully) they can choose to marry whom they will.

      And the issuance of a license is nothing that religions have a part in now (except that their members vote like everyone else).

      All I'm saying, is that the state should "subsidize" all loving couples, who raise children -- regardless of their sexuality and stop subsidizing childless loving couples -- also without regard for their sexuality. I'm not suggesting, homosexuality deserves any higher (nor lower) subsidy at all.

      This is rather confusing then. Are you saying that couples that have children should be subsidized? How?

      What about childless couples that want children? Should they be subsidized? How? And why?

      Again, love and commitment is nothing the state has an interest in. Its a kind of justice is blind thing. Some areas we simply do not expect the state to find out, either becuase it is entirely too invasive, impossible to determine without a thought reader/crystal ball to read the future. And in this case its both.

      All the state asks is "do you do this on your own accord(/by your own free will and choice)". Meaning do you really want to get married? Thats all it does to try to get inside the heads of the participants. The contract specifies other criteria, like both sexes need to be represented, health and other concerns based on the (assumed) capacity of the two entering into the contract to have children.

      So what is it you wish to change?

      It is thus foolish to reward the Marriage itself, merely because of its potential for child bearing and raising,

      There is no foolishness in rewarding people for respecting their procreative powers (whether excersized or not) by commiting to marriage. But you do provide an interesting perspective. However, as a marriage is a display that two people are willing to work with each other in a condition where children are possible, for the sake of the children, I see the move to reward marriage as wisdom. It acts as a more against the illegitimacy, single-parenting, and other problems that invoke a social cost on the child, and in turn on the society that has to deal with that child. Indeed, to fall-back from that more to simple after children are born sows the wind and reaps the whirlwind.

      I'm not suggesting, homosexuality deserves any higher (nor lower) subsidy at all.

      This is unimporant to me. You suggest it should be subsidized, and that is the point I've spoken to in this thread. Granted the subsidy I'm speaking to is adoption and various third party techniques in having children, not raising them. In that way we may be (but I don't think we are) talking past each other.

      But be warned, one of the most heinous acts I've ever been privy to was a mother who demanded her 14 year old daughter get pregnant so they could increase their welfare income! Any step you or others take to encouraging this type of behaviour by only giving money to child bearers will meet with stiff opposition from myself and others on grounds entirely different than we have presented so far.

      you would not argue, that

    9. Re:On Gay Marriage (Re:Lesbian society) by mi · · Score: 1

      I guess, the word "subsidy" confused you. No, I'm not advocating handing out money to the child bearers (nor rearers). I'm talking about less tangible benefits like inheritance preference, the possibility of not testifying against each other in court, etc.

      That's why, when I say "subsidy" in this thread, I put it into quotes.

      So what is it you wish to change?

      In short, and -- hopefully -- for the last time in this thread:

      I want all "subsidies" currently afforded to married couples to instead be provided to couples raising children -- own or adopted.

      I acknowledge, that my proposal is raw and unfinished -- for example, it does not cover older couples, who are no longer engaged in raising their adult children, whose children died, nor those, who try, but can not conceive. I'm sure, there are other uncovered spots...

      Yet its fundamental idea still seems correct to me. Throughout history, societies rewarded Marriage because it -- almost inevitably -- resulted in children, who were then (almost always) raised to the best of their parents' abilities.

      Contraception and abortion changed that. A healthy couple may live together for years without children. Religious institutions tend to blame it, but I don't. People own their bodies, and the ability to pick the time in their lives, when to conceive is a great achievement of medicine. But until that conception, they should not be afforded the benefits intended primarily to parents in the past.

      --
      In Soviet Washington the swamp drains you.
    10. Re:On Gay Marriage (Re:Lesbian society) by On+Lawn · · Score: 1

      I want all "subsidies" currently afforded to married couples to instead be provided to couples raising children -- own or adopted.

      Again, an interesting perspective. You misunderstood "subsidy", and that is alright. Note that I did define exactly what I meant by subsidy in the link in my sig, and it is entirely different than what you now refer to as a subsidy.

      What you are saying sounds more like a priviledge. And as the AC below has pointed out, priviledges enumerated to a contract, not a relationship. I think you'll have more problems defining the "couples raising children" than just older couples, or dead children couples. A marriage provides a contract that both sides sign and enter into, leaving a great paper trail easy and convinient for states to record and file.

      And notice that states decide just what the marriage contract that is, and what priviledges are granted to it, not religions. In your plan you would maybe have a birth certificate? Maybe you have a parent-to child bond registry? Hmm, this might be re-arranging the deck chairs on the Titanic again.

      As how would you handle people that simply lose interest in raising children? In fact, to be honest the more I learn about your plan the more it sounds like something that we have already --The Foster Care program. Children are passed to whomever is interested in raising children, and they are rewarded both monitarily and with priviledges. The program is even open to homosexual couples in many states.

      It is also shown as be a less advantageous condition than marriage and adoption as well. I'd hate to see it become the norm (which if I'm not misunderstanding I think you are advocating).

      To me marriage seems to be something more, and the research seems to bear this out. The state and its citizenry can still get just as much out of marriage as they ever could. And I submit that the streangth and value in marriage has not diminished over time, just our support of and value of it. To me your observations would support that conclusion.

    11. Re:On Gay Marriage (Re:Lesbian society) by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I'm the AC who posted to stick up for childfree married people's rights, as I see they are trampled under your 'plan'. I will post as AC if I please, but you are free to ignore me. :)

      As AC, I can come right out and say that both my partner and I suffer debilitating physical conditions which not only keep us from having children, but would actually get us laughed at if we should try to adopt. We are unable physically or financially to care for a child.

      If our privileges under marriage were non-existent the way you want, my husband would likely be dead right now. When we got married, we knew we would never have children. We wanted to affirm our commitment to each other, not to gain any privilege so we did not really consider things like power of attorney. However, a situation arose where my power of attorney may have saved his life, if only because his parents would have made a bad medical decision, indeed, it was a feud where they tried to usurp my power of attorney, so they could keep him in a hospital where he was not being diagnosed or treated properly. I got him the hell out of there, which I could not have done as a girlfriend unless we had had the foresight to go and sign paperwork (which we would not have, this life-threatening illness was unrelated to previous disabilities and totally unexpected).

      Don't most states already have a "common-law" rule where you are legally considered married after a certain time living together? In my state it is seven years. I am not sure if it grants power of attorney though, or just a sub-set of privileges. And that is all we married people get - we don't get money for raising kids. In fact we are only now seeing the government try to do something about the marriage penalty most of us pay in the form of higher taxes than we would pay if single.

      I agree with your theory as to subsidising the rearing of children, for the sake of the quality of children's lives. I know first hand, myself being a love-child who was bounced around between relatives. The government gives tax credits to people rearing children. Also people who are foster parents or adopted a ward of the state, are reimbursed for most of the child costs including health costs, insurance, etc. However - and this is an important flaw in your theory - the goverment doesn't define what is appropriate child-rearing any more than it defines a loving couple (referring to your discussions below.) Far too many foster parents, and parents on welfare, do the bare minimum required to not be chareged with neglect. Yes the are techically rearing children, so they get their money to spend on crack or booze or whatever they want. Unfortunately, to fix this, you would need to drastically invade everyone's privacy, and come up with a government defined minimum quality of child rearing.

      Also, it is in my interest as a human to not live in a wildly overpopulated country. I don't believe we are a scourge on the Earth but we are a part of it, just like other species. And, what happens to other species when they overpopulate also applies to us. I would like to keep our undeveloped land for our enrichment. I do not like the idea of nothing to look at but concrete and buildings just so we can have more people. Especially if there weren't enough jobs, food, etc. and said people started starving.

    12. Re:On Gay Marriage (Re:Lesbian society) by mi · · Score: 1
      A marriage provides a contract that both sides sign and enter into, leaving a great paper trail easy and convenient for states to record and file.

      Most of the details of this contract are only discovered much later on, when/if things go sour. In my plan, people will be welcome to sign whatever contracts they want -- explicitly. The simplest "cookie cutter" ones to be available in bridal shops and in Staples.

      The state and its citizenry can still get just as much out of marriage as they ever could.

      Thanks to the improvements in Productivity, Marriage is not as important as it used to be for the survival of the partners nor of their children. This is the objective reasons of the diminished importance of it. That's my hypothesis, and the rising divorce rate supports it.

      The only reason Marriage remains beneficial to Society is the better quality of the children -- all other qualities of it, that you allude to, benefit the partners themselves.

      --
      In Soviet Washington the swamp drains you.
    13. Re:On Gay Marriage (Re:Lesbian society) by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
      I'm talking about less tangible benefits like inheritance preference, the possibility of not testifying against each other in court, etc.

      I want all "subsidies" currently afforded to married couples to instead be provided to couples raising children -- own or adopted.

      I acknowledge, that my proposal is raw and unfinished...

      Yet its fundamental idea still seems correct to me.


      Here we go down the same old anti-marriage road. First, someone asserts a definition of marriage which they admit is restrictive. Then they simply assume their definition holds and use it to argue the need to abolish marriage. This is the old logical fallacy of "begging the question."

      Society's interest in marriage is not child-rearing. Society already has a relationship defined that addresses child-rearing: the parent-child relationship. Marriage is not merely a redundancy society was too stupid to notice until Mi pointed it out.

      Only worrying about who should be responsible for child rearing after the child is already here is closing the barn door after the horse has left. Society is not equally treated by a couple who knows they will take care of their child and a couple who only decides whether to care for a child after the child is born.

      The two examples you provide of "subsidy" are not subsidies at all, as you have already admitted. Instead, they are more definition of the relationship than they are subsidy. Consider intestate inhertance, what you erroneously called "inheritance preference." Children are also mentioned in intestacy laws. Do you call giving the estate of an intestate parent to a child a subsidy or is it more a definition of the parent-child relationship? That your estate may not be confiscated by the state is the actual right under review and it applies to all, married or not married. In fact, if a person dies without heirs, that person's homosexual lover can make a claim to the decedent's estate that gets more judicial notice than the state's claim. Again, this is more a definition of the state's relationship to the individual than it is a "subsidy."

    14. Re:On Gay Marriage (Re:Lesbian society) by On+Lawn · · Score: 1

      A marriage provides a contract that both sides sign and enter into, leaving a great paper trail easy and convenient for states to record and file.

      Most of the details of this contract are only discovered much later on, when/if things go sour. In my plan, people will be welcome to sign whatever contracts they want -- explicitly. The simplest "cookie cutter" ones to be available in bridal shops and in Staples.

      Well I can tell you aren't taking this seriously any more. At least I can't see someone saying that and expecting to be taken seriously. Lets segway to cartoon for a bit since you've lightened up the mood. What you said reminds me of what Bart did in this scenario...

      BART: What's everyone's problem? I'm glad we're stranded! It'll be just like the Swiss Family Robinson, only with more cursing! We're gonna live like kings! Damn, hell, as kings!

      As "Under the Sea" plays, a fantasy sequence is imagined with the kids living in a wonderful tree settlement. Martin takes a shower. Wendell uses a water slide. Sherri and Terri drive a bamboo and grass car. Ralph pigs out on food and a monkey butler brings Nelson a drink. Back to reality.

      BART: And every night the monkey butlers will regale us with jungle stories.

      NELSON: How many monkey butlers will there be?

      BART: One at first. But he'll train others.

      All the kids marvel at such a great future. Bart climbs down from the rock.

      Allowing people to write whatever they want as a contract, and selling them at Staples does not address anything but story line. You say they are raising kids, just like in Bart's fantasy there are monkey butlers. But you say nothing more about how it comes into being than "The simplest 'cookie cutter' ones to be available in bridal shops and in Staples," much like Bart says, "One at first. But he'll train others."

      So how do people become child rearers? You say a contract, but how? Really its insulting that you wish to tear down marriage chasing after a fantasy, its even more insulting that you expect me to buy into this fantasy. Just how does "anything they want it to be" establish a precondition here?

      And you don't even address its striking simularity to foster-parenting, a system already in use today and far inferior to marriage. I imagine your little frolic here is becuase you are looking for an easy out of a position once thought "insightful" but is now just fantasy. Take the jester's escape, thats at least entertaining.

      Marriage is not as important as it used to be for the survival of the partners nor of their children. This is the objective reasons of the diminished importance of it. That's my hypothesis, and the rising divorce rate supports it.

      Hmmm, allow me to defer this time to Lisa Simpson for a response...

      Lisa: By your reasoning, I could say that this rock keeps away tigers.

      Homer: How does the rock work?
      Lisa: Well, you don't see any tigers around, do you?
      Homer: Lisa, Daddy would like to buy your rock.

      For a much more interesting and insightful commentary on the rising divorce rate (and why homosexual marriage is a solution like putting a bullet through a starving man's head cures his hunger) I offer this. You don't neccissarily disagree with this author mind you, but at least he is grounded in reality.

      The Nordic family pattern--including gay marriage--is spreading across Europe. And by looking closely at it we can answer the key empirical question underlying the gay marriage debate. Will same-sex marriage undermine the institution of marriage? It already has.

      More precisely, it has further undermined the institution. The separation of marriage from parenthood was incr

    15. Re:On Gay Marriage (Re:Lesbian society) by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
      Marriage is not as important as it used to be...
      So you find marriage unimportant (due in large part to your restrictive redefinition of it, no doubt) and so we should trust you to save it? Oddly, though this statement is bad logic on its face, I have yet to see an anti-marriage activist who does not employ some form of it.
    16. Re:On Gay Marriage (Re:Lesbian society) by mi · · Score: 1

      And you are taking it far too seriously (and too verbously) for the forum, on which we meet.

      Those, who wish to get married (in the traditional fashion) will always be welcome to, signing whatever contracts they wish to sign to bind them stronger together.

      I'm not suggesting to "tear down marriage". I'm suggesting, the State stops recognizing it as anything special whatsoever, and concentrate instead on the couples, raising children -- regardless of whether they are "married" (by whichever definition). Foster Care program may, indeed, be a step in that direction.

      Marriage is being "torn down" by vast increases in productivity, while still being supported by tradition and, indeed, religion -- as your facts about Sweden examplify. It will not be "putting a bullet through its head", rather "turning off the life support". I'm not saying it prevents gender equality, I just see its diminishment as an objective fact of life. It will go the way the hunting-gathering habits went with the improvements of agriculture, the way tribal societies went with the onset of urban life and advances of social science, the way slavery went with further developments in agriculture and the rise of industry (and not because it was "immoral"), etc.

      But this is not, what I was talking about.

      All I am calling for, is for State to recognize, that it has no inherent interest in Marriage itself -- only in the better and and bigger new generations.

      I've said it enough times already, and no one else seems to be reading this thread.

      Good night, sir.

      --
      In Soviet Washington the swamp drains you.
    17. Re:On Gay Marriage (Re:Lesbian society) by On+Lawn · · Score: 1

      And you are taking it far too seriously (and too verbously) for the forum, on which we meet.

      Fantastic, now you simply patronize me. Look, you can have all the fantasies you want, but peddle them in novellas, not politics. Do an Ayn Rand and make up just any Utopic society and just becuase you are particular to your own ideas, grant it every great consequence through authorship. But it will only inspire people who have less, not more, grounding in reality than yourself.

      I'm not suggesting to "tear down marriage". I'm suggesting, the State stops recognizing it as anything special whatsoever

      I can't parse this, its a direct contradiction. Its the same direct contradiction I've pointed out time and time again. You haven't unraveled the contradiction, no not even an attempt. All I see is re-iteration, as if I don't yet understand what you are saying.

      Foster Care program may, indeed, be a step in that direction.

      This just continues to reverberate the contradiction. From what we know of Foster care we can say definitively it is a step toward weakening child support and marriage. Wait, I said that before... Yep just checked. Once again you refuse to discuss and simply keep chanting your fantasy like a mantra hoping its shear simplicity will soothe your pride and dull your senses.

      Marriage is being "torn down" by vast increases in productivity, while still being supported by tradition and, indeed, religion -- as your facts about Sweden examplify.

      The facts about Sweden exemplify that removing child rearing from marriage, through liberal interpretation of soclialistic values (welfare and state contrived equality) tears down marriage. I do not see the benign attribute "productivity" as being a factor at all. Nor is Sweden considered a very productive state. As was pointed out in the article, they have an unusually high percentage of citizens employed by the state.

      As far as the author is concerned, prosperity (somewhat related to productivity) simply means we can pay the social cost --for now. And becuase we think we can pay the social cost we contiue to borrow against our childrens future as marriage is undermined by people who wish to re-make it into what ever they want to be. Read it again, its exactly what he says.

      And I'll tell you something else. This is a freebie. Even your overly simplistic and self-gratifying interpretation supports my thesis that marriage itself is not weakening, just our support of it. Marriage still has all the value and capability it ever had, people just wish to find other ways around it that aren't so restrictive. That they may be more able to pay (or in this case have the state pay) the cost of their actions in a more prosperous society, but it does not diminish the capacity that marriage has to avoid those costs. Nor can "money" or "productivity" fully make up the difference as people choose to be more selfish with their lives, hoping the state will pick up the tab.

      I just see [marriages] diminishment as an objective fact of life.

      And Lisa's rock does keep away tigers.

      All I am calling for, is for State to recognize, that it has no inherent interest in Marriage itself -- only in the better and and bigger new generations.

      I've said it enough times already...


      And every time you say it, it is just as absurd a contradiction as the first.

      In fact, I'm noticing the more I point it out as a contradiction the more you ignore what I say (or at least you do not speak to it) and wishfully re-iterate your stance as if maybe the 100th or 151st time you say it will make it true.

      Its a monkey butler fantasy, directly conflicting with reality. Good day, chant to yourself simplistic fantasies while you console yourself in the corner. Replying is always an option.

    18. Re:On Gay Marriage (Re:Lesbian society) by mi · · Score: 1
      You seem to be trying (subconsiencely, perhaps) to fit my words into somebody else's view -- to which you already have objected in the past. Your presupposition, that I advocate some sort of additional costs to the State or the Society points at such attempts.
      I'm not suggesting to "tear down marriage". I'm suggesting, the State stops recognizing it as anything special whatsoever

      I can't parse this, its a direct contradiction.

      Are you admitting, the Marriage -- an institution predating all forms of government -- will not survive being no longer recognized by the State? That it will be "shot through the head" and/or "torn down" by that? It is not what I set out to suggest nor prove, it simply follows from your statements... Interesting. Well, I'm no more willing to subsidize hetero- than homosexuality. I don't wish to subsidize either, to be more specific.

      And every time you say it, it is just as absurd a contradiction as the first.

      Contradiction between what and what?

      Marriage still has all the value and capability it ever had, people just wish to find other ways around it that aren't so restrictive. That they may be more able to pay (or in this case have the state pay) the cost of their actions in a more prosperous society, but it does not diminish the capacity that marriage has to avoid those costs.

      This is just as true as the fact, a mule and a plow can still be used for farming. In fact, I'll probably agree, that Marriage is relatively even more useful and gratifying to individuals today, than the plow to today's farmers. That is not my point. I'm saying is, Marriage is not particularly useful (nor gratifying) to the State.

      You may think, it is foolish of people to deny themselves the benefits of Marriage, and I may even agree with you personally. But then you are not very different from people, who insist Religion would improve people's lives -- and cut the State's costs, and should thus be recognized and supported by the State.

      --
      In Soviet Washington the swamp drains you.
    19. Re:On Gay Marriage (Re:Lesbian society) by On+Lawn · · Score: 1
      Are you admitting, the Marriage -- an institution predating all forms of government -- will not survive being no longer recognized by the State?

      No, and you can quote me. You're gaming with scope and scale here and your results are *sigh* contradictory to your thesis.

      A state that quits regognizing marriage has torn it down within the states pervue. That should be evident. To say that does not tear down the institution of marriage is a contradiction whithin the narrow blinders of state perspective.

      But you did jump in scope hoping to save from contradiction by suggesting marriage then survives inspite of the states actions (an interesting approach). This particular fantasy may not be so far from reality.

      Marriage survives only in the people that still understand what marriage is out the scope of the state. Those confusing marriage with foster-parenting (becuase the state has conflated them as you have advocated) also see marriage is un-neccissary and torn down (re: Sweden).

      Those that have value in marriage become beneficiaries of the scientifically proven results in socially and physically healthier children (i.e. more productive). Meanwhile others that find marriages social responsibility to be too constricting take the actions of the state as endorcment of more free natured foster-parenting approach. And their children turn out like foster children (more of a social burden), and as shown in scientific studies less likely to marry.

      So in this we see your contradiction. And while to the wise marriage's survival proves its fitness through experiment of social darwinism, you advocate that this should mean, "Marriage is not particularly useful (nor gratifying) to the State...recognizing only the potential to procreate is foolishness."

      Perhaps you should read this to see more of why your advocacy is harmful to marriage. If that is not enough, perhaps you could do me a favor and acknowledge the AC's perspective on the logical fallacy you are peddling here.

      Contradiction between what and what?

      If this isn't turning a blind eye wishing it will go away, I don't know what is. If I say I stab myself through the heart and die, but I am not doing myself any harm that is a contradiction.

      For your contradiction (again using your words and spelled out again lest I used too many words above)...

      The Society has interest in higher quantity and quality of children.

      Throughout history, societies rewarded Marriage because it -- almost inevitably -- resulted in children, who were then (almost always) raised to the best of their parents' abilities.

      The only reason Marriage remains beneficial to Society is the better quality of the children -- all other qualities of it, that you allude to, benefit the partners themselves.

      Marriage is not particularly useful (nor gratifying) to the State.

      But then you are not very different from people, who insist Religion would improve people's lives -- and cut the State's costs, and should thus be recognized and supported by the State.

      Religion is recognized and supported by the State (prayers start every session of congress and every Supreme Court sitting, references to God and prayer everywhere on government buildings, money, etc...). Its protected from the state by the first Ammendment, allow me to quote...

      Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof;

      Religions are recognized by the state, and even today there are laws governing just what a religion is and how it gets recognized for benefits such as tax-exemption, etc... If I support my religion with my money, the government deducts that from my gross income and saves me from paying taxes on that money.

      And for the reasons you enumerate I do support bot

    20. Re:On Gay Marriage (Re:Lesbian society) by mi · · Score: 1
      Are you admitting, the Marriage -- an institution predating all forms of government -- will not survive being no longer recognized by the State?

      No, and you can quote me. You're gaming with scope and scale here and your results are *sigh* contradictory to your thesis.

      A state that quits recognizing marriage has torn it down within the states pervue. That should be evident. To say that does not tear down the institution of marriage is a contradiction whithin the narrow blinders of state perspective.

      This state does not recognize religion as anything special. Did the founding fathers "tear down" Religion with the 1st Amendment?

      Feel free to re-read this AC's post on marriage to see just how, to him, forming a family in his and his wife's image is an expression of their individuality.

      Exactly: his and his wife's. This is not State's business...

      --
      In Soviet Washington the swamp drains you.
    21. Re:On Gay Marriage (Re:Lesbian society) by On+Lawn · · Score: 1
      This state does not recognize religion as anything special. Did the founding fathers "tear down" Religion with the 1st Amendment?
      Either you are trying to change the subject or you are trying to equate this with what you feel the state should also do with marriage. The former is a weak tactic, I won't devote any more than an acknowledgement to it. The latter is an interesting notion, but aren't really showing that you understand how the state treats religion.

      How is, "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof;" not recognizing religion as anything special? I mean don't you think that if they didn't think it was special they wouldn't have named it at all? Freedom of speech is mentioned too with simular verbage, was that nothing special to them also?

      Feel free to re-read this AC's post on marriage to see just how, to him, forming a family in his and his wife's image is an expression of their individuality.
      Exactly: his and his wife's. This is not State's business...
      Interesting. To you, expressing individuality is none of the states business. It seems the founding fathers thought the expression of individuality was of the utmost importance for the state to recognize!

      You are welcome to your beliefs, but if I may say, your 0/2 on this one. Neither statement describes why the state should have no interest in marriage, and neither seem to be in accord with the facts. And you don't even try to speak to the reasons provided that the state should take interest in marriage. Like monkey butlers these assertions just *are* and suit no porpose other than fulfilling your fantasies on life.

      You did try to support your position a few times, and that was good. There we were able to engage in real discussion. Pity you choose to abandon it again with chanting of your mantra. I mean really, I give you facts about how the state reveres religion and protects it and you simply quip back, "This state does not recognize religion as anything special."

      Now look, I do appreciate what you are trying to do here. I appreciate that to you, you've found an equitable comprimise that should stop the fighting, at least in the capitol buildings in the 50 states of the US. But marriage is too valuable to me and to the state to simply be the casualty here.

      Marriage is not an oppressive institution, it is not like slavary or despotism. Why should it be banished from state recognition when it hasn't done anything wrong? And quite honestly, your proposal won't stop the fighting, it will just give it a new name.

      I also appreciate that to you, if we let marriage just mean whatever people want, that should mean everyone has the freedom to do with marriage as they please. To you this seems like expanding the capacity of marriage, not limiting it. But that does not work in institutions meant to instil social responsibility. Imagion what would happen if we let people call define for themselves what a drivers license was! Imagion what would happen if we let people define just what a diploma is for themselves!

      When it gets down to it, marriage is a standard. Its the best way we know how (as you've said yourself) to raise children. It asks for representation from both sexes, how more fair can you get? The UN doesn't give Spain's vote to Russia, it asks for equal representation. So does Congress (based on different metrics of course).

      It is the epitome, it is the standard. And the state who has an interest in individuality of both marriage partners and the children produced (with or without marriage) should contiue to hold it up as the standard.

    22. Re:On Gay Marriage (Re:Lesbian society) by mi · · Score: 1
      This state does not recognize religion as anything special. Did the founding fathers "tear down" Religion with the 1st Amendment?

      [...] you are trying to equate this with what you feel the state should also do with marriage.

      Yes, pretty similar.

      How is, "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof;" not recognizing religion as anything special?

      As anything legally special. Hence, make no law . What I meant was, that this State does not specify what a religion should be, nor what responsibilities and/or benefits come with it. No one can use religion to avoid testifying in court, and it does not entitle to powers of attorney nor to any of the many little and not so little things the State has attached to Marriage over the years (something newlyweds seldom realize).

      Interesting. To you, expressing individuality is none of the states business. It seems the founding fathers thought the expression of individuality was of the utmost importance for the state to recognize!

      Care to provide a reference? We seem to be attaching different meanings to "recognize". I am talking about legal recognition. Religion certainly expresses one's individuality. As do tastes, political opinions, and sexual orientation. But no one thinks of attaching special legal meaning to Cuisine, for example :-)

      Imagine what would happen if we let people call define for themselves what a drivers license was! Imagine what would happen if we let people define just what a diploma is for themselves!

      You are mixing separate issues together. The Driver's License is an official State-issued document and is required to access public roadways. A diploma -- thanks for a good example -- may be issued by a private enterprise and is not legally required for anything. And yes, anyone is, and, I think, ought to be able to define a diploma for her/himself and others -- as long as there is no government mandated recognition of it. Just as some religions and diplomas are now, there will be "fraudulent" marriages. So be it.

      And the state who has an interest in individuality of both marriage partners and the children produced (with or without marriage) should continue to hold it up as the standard.

      Again, "individuality" is of no concern for the State. Or should not be -- it is a private matter. The only possible legitimate concern the State may have in Marriage is its ability to produce and -- more importantly -- raise children. I hereby move, that the state legally recognizes, supports, and encourages these two abilities by themselves -- directly.

      --
      In Soviet Washington the swamp drains you.
    23. Re:On Gay Marriage (Re:Lesbian society) by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
      The Driver's License is an official State-issued document and is required to access public roadways.
      Begging the question. The state issues drivers licenses (much like marriage licenses) because it has an interest, in this case, public safety. The state does not allow people to define their own driver's licenses because that would be abrogating its interest.
      A diploma -- thanks for a good example -- may be issued by a private enterprise and is not legally required for anything.
      Wrong again. Consider that the state has no interest in diplomas the next time you drive over/under a bridge, enter a high-rise building, or require a medical procedure. The state exercises its interest in all of these activities and requires diplomas.
      Again, "individuality" is of no concern for the State.
      Wrong yet again. Consider a society where all individuality was quashed. The impact on the state and society would be tremendous. The state persues its interests in the regard vigorously and affirmatively by limiting the types and scope of laws it can enforce.
      The only possible legitimate concern the State may have in Marriage is its ability to produce and -- more importantly -- raise children.
      Wrong again. You are closing the barn door after the horse has left.

      So in your limited, sheltered, and myopic view of the world the state has no interest in diplomas or marriage licenses or individuality and due to your ignorance the state should abandon laws supporting those interests. A pathetically weak and self-serving argument. Perhaps if we were all living on a deserted tropical fairytale island where everything meant something different than what it now means (like "marriage" and "subsidy") and we were all taken care of by monkey butlers this would work and you could be crowned king. Until then, go peddle your papers.

    24. Re:On Gay Marriage (Re:Lesbian society) by On+Lawn · · Score: 1
      What I meant was, that this State does not specify what ... benefits come with [religion].

      You've simply covered one factual error with another. What I can't believe is that you say that in the same post you quote, "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof;". Freedom is a very important benefit, and marks it specifically for special consideration in legal matters. Other benefits include tax-exemption and tax deduction for people contributing to it.

      That religion, like free speach, is left for the courts to define is inconsequential to the debate since you are advocating each couple decides what marriage is and not advocating courts to define it.

      No one can use religion to avoid testifying in court,

      You have never heard of Clergy Confidentiality? It means that a clergy is never required by law to testify something that was told him/her for penance.

      it does not entitle to powers of attorney

      What "powers of attorney" are you talking about here. And don't keep flinging these mokey butler lines at me out of your rear-end, mmkay? Give me a real law. So far you've so incedulously botched up constitutional and state law that I really can't take much you say any more.

      Interesting. To you, expressing individuality is none of the states business. It seems the founding fathers thought the expression of individuality was of the utmost importance for the state to recognize!

      Care to provide a reference?

      Happy to ablige. Guess where this comes from...

      We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.--That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, --That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness. Prudence, indeed, will dictate that Governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes; and accordingly all experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed.

      I am talking about legal recognition.

      A better paragraph defining individuality and the legal recognition of it, I have not found. And allow me to head you off at the pass here, the Declaration of independance was most certainly a legal document. It was the document declaring our status from England as independant.

      Volumes of legislation, governments, and legal theory have been written from the seed of just that one paragraph. You better believe individuality was defined, recognized and considered special by the Founding Fathers.

      And can you knock it off with all your post-hoc definitions here? You've done it with "subsidy", "marriage" itself, now "recognition" and "special". If you don't know what a word means get a dictionary.

      The Driver's License is an official State-issued document and is required to access public roadways.

      A marriage license is an official state-issued document and is required to access the marriage contract and all the benefits and responsibilities enumerated therin... Next!

      A diploma -- thanks for a good example -- may be issued by a private enterprise and is not legally required for anything.

      You are attempting to support your thesis here by erroneous facts once again. Academic credentials (including but not limited to a diploma) are required by

    25. Re:On Gay Marriage (Re:Lesbian society) by mi · · Score: 1
      You have never heard of Clergy Confidentiality? It means that a clergy is never required by law to testify something that was told him/her for penance.

      This is interesting, no I have not... It may be worth noting, however, that it seems to be the creation of states, rather than coming from the Constitution...

      This is the kind of confidentiality I'd like to see afforded to people involved in raising children together.

      A better paragraph defining individuality and the legal recognition of it, I have not found.

      There is no word "individuality" in that paragraph. Nope. I'm not sure, which of the two meanings of the word, you (and the ACs, you bother to read) are using (see, the dictionary does not always help):

      1. individuality, individualism -- (the quality of being individual: "so absorbed by the movement that she lost all sense of individuality")
      2. identity, individuality -- (the distinct personality of an individual regarded as a persisting entity: "you can lose your identity when you join the army")
      I thought, the AC, you quoted, before was talking about the second meaning. The quote, you provided, is about the first.

      I am however, puzzled by your assertions, that affirming and supporting individualism is somehow in the interest of the State and that Marriage needs legal recognition because it helps foster individualism. I read in that quote above an opposite thing, that all Men are endowed with individualism by their Creator. State does not need, nor can support it any more than Gravity.

      A marriage license is an official state-issued document and is required to access the marriage contract and all the benefits and responsibilities enumerated therein... Next!

      Exactly the practice I'm advocating be abolished -- while leaving the drivers licenses alone.

      Academic credentials (including but not limited to a diploma) are required by law to administer/practice law, medicine, education, and even certain feats of engineering.

      Not (quite) true. What is required is a certification by a government authority, which, usually, requires passing some school-agnostic tests. But regardless, I remain of the opinion, that marriage should belong to the unregulated parts of life -- like those other feats of engineering.

      We keep on talking about different things, and you are growing passionate. The AC you quoted -- even more so (he/she seems to be markedly similar to you... Khmm). You feel like I am threatening Marriage, to which you have passionate feelings. Being passionate about a subject of discussion is even worse, than going grocery shopping being hungry...

      "Peddling my papers" is just what I am doing :-) At least, you don't insist, the papers are self-inconsistent...

      --
      In Soviet Washington the swamp drains you.
    26. Re:On Gay Marriage (Re:Lesbian society) by On+Lawn · · Score: 1
      I'll catagorize your post into three categories. Terribly convenient, I might start doing it with all of them.

      Off topic triviality/wacko nonsense...

      [Clergy Confidentiality] seems to be the creation of states, rather than coming from the Constitution...

      State does not need, nor can support [individuality] any more than Gravity.

      Being passionate about a subject of discussion is even worse, than going grocery shopping being hungry...


      Unsupported Monkey Butler fantasies...

      [A marriage license is an official state-issued document and is required to access the marriage contract and all the benefits and responsibilities enumerated therein.] Exactly the practice I'm advocating be abolished -- while leaving the drivers licenses alone.

      I remain of the opinion, that marriage should belong to the unregulated parts of life...


      Things from the last post you failed to address...

      What "powers of attorney" are you talking about here. And don't keep flinging these mokey butler lines at me out of your rear-end, mmkay? Give me a real law.

      So [Mi's] limited, sheltered, and myopic view of the world the state has no interest in diplomas or marriage licenses or individuality and due to [Mi's] ignorance the state should abandon laws supporting those interests. A pathetically weak and self-serving argument.


      Indeed, you present an arguement you seem unwilling to support, other than by chanting it over and over again. Sure its self-consistent but ignorance usually is (what you don't know won't hurt you kind of thing). In fact the further you get from reality the easier a fantasy is to be "self-consistent". You've hit on nothing clever here.

      And yes, you do intend to do marriage much harm. That you say you do not simply contradicts what you intend to do with marriage, another point from previous posts that you also have not addressed.
    27. Re:On Gay Marriage (Re:Lesbian society) by On+Lawn · · Score: 1
      While I'm noting things you have refused to address, (boy arguement is must be easy for you when you don't ever intend to support your ideas. Again this is nothing new or clever.)

      From another AC, (italics are your words they are responding to)

      Why should a wife of three years have automatic power of attorney of her husband, while a girlfriend of ten years does not have such power over her loving and loved boyfriend?"

      Because a marriage is a legal contract that grants exactly such a privilege. I have known my parents since I was born, and I love them dearly, but I don't have power of attorney over them.

      From another AC,

      However - and this is an important flaw in your theory - the goverment doesn't define what is appropriate child-rearing any more than it defines a loving couple (referring to your discussions below.) Far too many foster parents, and parents on welfare, do the bare minimum required to not be chareged with neglect. Yes the are techically rearing children, so they get their money to spend on crack or booze or whatever they want.

      That mirrors what another AC said,

      So you find marriage unimportant (due in large part to your restrictive redefinition of it, no doubt) and so we should trust you to save it?

      And this mirrors my point (That you've also not addressed) that foster-parenting is far inferior to marriage as an institution for rearing children. If as a government you were interested in child rearing you'd be more interested in endorsing, recognising and supporting marriage than foster-parenting. Yet you conclude the opposite on undisclosed grounds.

      Another post that could be one of the previous AC's,

      Society's interest in marriage is not child-rearing. Society already has a relationship defined that addresses child-rearing: the parent-child relationship. Marriage is not merely a redundancy society was too stupid to notice until Mi pointed it out.

      Only worrying about who should be responsible for child rearing after the child is already here is closing the barn door after the horse has left. Society is not equally treated by a couple who knows they will take care of their child and a couple who only decides whether to care for a child after the child is born.

      Marriage as the foundation for a family and potential for child bearing and raising (as its always been understood to be by the people making and sustaining the laws we have) is just the interest you are speaking to. As you said, "My idea is that it is the child-rearing by a couple ... that is important to the Society."

      These questions have still been unanswered,

      This is rather confusing then. Are you saying that couples that have children should be subsidized? How?

      What about childless couples that want children? Should they be subsidized? How? And why?

      Oh and this certainly should have been addressed in your woefully (and stratigically) ambigious plan.

      But be warned, one of the most heinous acts I've ever been privy to was a mother who demanded her 14 year old daughter get pregnant so they could increase their welfare income! Any step you or others take to encouraging this type of behaviour by only giving money to child bearers will meet with stiff opposition from myself and others on grounds entirely different than we have presented so far.

      You dodged these questions also that could have helped give definition to your plan,

      In your plan you would maybe have a birth certificate? Maybe you have a parent-to child bond registry? Hmm, this might be re-arranging the deck chairs on the Titanic again.

      As how would you handle people that simply lose interest in r

    28. Re:On Gay Marriage (Re:Lesbian society) by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
      ...you are growing passionate. The AC you quoted -- even more so
      Pure ad hominem. OnLawn is becoming passionate? At least he does not sink into fallacy.
      (he/she seems to be markedly similar to you... Khmm).
      Your constant evasion has driven you to paranoia. Dividing one's arguments among multiple personas does not make one's argument more correct, nor an opponent's less correct. Your argument is falling of its own weight, not through some slight-of-hand. I am not OnLawn. I am not even the only AC responding.
      You feel like I am threatening Marriage, to which you have passionate feelings. Being passionate about a subject of discussion is even worse, than going grocery shopping being hungry...
      The pattern is now complete. Like the other anti-marriage hacks you started with an unsupported idea and end up hurling unsupported accusations. You start discussing an arguement, you leave discussing the arguers.
    29. Re:On Gay Marriage (Re:Lesbian society) by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
      Sure its self-consistent but ignorance usually is (what you don't know won't hurt you kind of thing). In fact the further you get from reality the easier a fantasy is to be "self-consistent".
      Self-consistent? There is not enough substance in a begging-the-question argument to make any statement about logical consistency. (The assertion that A/\B=>A tells us nothing about B.) Self-contained would be more accurate. Self-contained, as in not intruded upon by messy reality.
    30. Re:On Gay Marriage (Re:Lesbian society) by On+Lawn · · Score: 1


      Your right, and even after I said that I noted it is not even self-consistent. It still suffers from the origional (and oft repeated) contradiction that his plan is in the best interests of child rearing. Thank you for correcting me on that.

    31. Re:On Gay Marriage (Re:Lesbian society) by mi · · Score: 1
      1. Your continuing use of the term "monkey butler" tells me nothing -- I have no idea, what children book, old saying, TV-show, or soap opera it comes from;
      2. I don't usually read AC-comments -- I browse at 2, and /. does not notify me of replies below that;
      3. I tried, but failed to convince you, I'm not attacking your cherished Marriage -- I "hold self-evident" its relative demise and explain it by improved economics; your explanation of the demise by "our lessened support for it" does not make sense to me -- the "lessened support" is part of the demise, it thus can not be the reason;
      4. you seem to be of insufficiently pleasant character ("monkey botler", "pulled out", "wacko") for me to continue;
      5. I'm sorry, if I was unable to respond to all of your (and your ACs') arguments -- it would require much more writing than I am willing to afford to convincing two people;
      6. I shall allow myself to take foolish comfort in the '+5 Interesting' rating of my original posting -- as close to "being crowned a king of a tropical island" as it gets;
      7. seek consolation in the remarkable agreeability (and individuality :-) of the ACs;
      --
      In Soviet Washington the swamp drains you.
    32. Re:On Gay Marriage (Re:Lesbian society) by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
      Your continuing use of the term "monkey butler" tells me nothing -- I have no idea, what children book, old saying, TV-show, or soap opera it comes from;
      Argument from ignorance. The term was defined at introduction.
      I don't usually read AC-comments -- I browse at 2, and /. does not notify me of replies below that;
      Ad hominem fallacy and a lie to boot. You have read my arguments and still do not respond.
      I tried, but failed to convince you, I'm not attacking your cherished Marriage -- I "hold self-evident" its relative demise...
      Self contradiction. Akin to someone saying "I am not attacking you. Your lack of a brain is self-evident." Nowhere do you argue that the demise of marriage, whether true or imagined, benefits society.
      you seem to be of insufficiently pleasant character ("monkey botler", "pulled out", "wacko") for me to continue
      Ad Hominem and evasive. OnLawn has made no attacks on your character, yet you assail his. It is pure victim mentality to say that OnLawn is the reason you have not supported your arguments.
      I'm sorry, if I was unable to respond to all of your (and your ACs') arguments -- it would require much more writing than I am willing to afford to convincing two people;
      Not an arugment at all and self-contradictory. You seem to have time and writing capability for mindless evasions. It's supporting your argument that seems to tire your fingers.
      I shall allow myself to take foolish comfort in the '+5 Interesting' rating of my original posting -- as close to "being crowned a king of a tropical island" as it gets;
      Appeal to popularity and spotlighting. If appeal to popularity is the measure of correctness then your argument against marriage lost before even being stated. You and you alone hold to your definition of marriage.
      seek consolation in the remarkable agreeability (and individuality :-) of the ACs;
      Mere childish goading. You are the one taking consolation. Nobody else is asking for any. Perhaps if you could support your arguments (or at least adapt your proposals to cull out incorrect assumption) you would not need it.
    33. Re:On Gay Marriage (Re:Lesbian society) by On+Lawn · · Score: 1

      I don't usually read AC-comments -- I browse at 2

      That is uninteresting and, frankly, trivial. You've read them now and continue to ignore them, and that is the most relevant fact speaking of your position.

      I "hold self-evident" [marriage's] relative demise and explain it by improved economics;

      Technically you correlation more than causality (as the parable of Lisa's rock dictates). The small amount of explanation you provided was eclipsed in depth, resolution and research by the essay provided (which although was not an AC, you ignored also).

      your explanation of the demise by "our lessened support for it" does not make sense to me -- the "lessened support" is part of the demise, it thus can not be the reason;

      A part of the decline can most certanly be a cause for further decline. These are called feedback loops.

      I shall allow myself to take foolish comfort in the '+5 Interesting' rating of my original posting -- as close to "being crowned a king of a tropical island" as it gets;

      Hmmm, here you reference an episode of the Simpsons [the link is a post in this thread you responded to] with monkey butlers, yet claim ignorance to what is meant by them. Interesting.

      I'm sorry, if I was unable to respond to all of your (and your ACs') arguments -- it would require much more writing than I am willing to afford to convincing two people...seek consolation in the remarkable agreeability (and individuality :-) of the ACs;

      I appreciate the sentiment, but I don't feel any need for consolation. I'm very thankful of your time and platform as mentioned in the grandparent post. I accept your appology, and will simply be left to wonder what response you could have crafted, long or short, that could have possibly reconciled your contradictory position. But that is a little matter as this excersize has given me more confidence in my position.

      Take solace as you feel neccisary, but you've been wrong an embarassingly large portion of your assertions. That should be disconcerting. That deficiency is seperate to ignorance and ambiguity in the cause you are advocate (re: arguement by mantra/chanting) referenced in the grandparent post, which should be disconserting also.

      Perhaps you overingratiated the slashocratic support of the +5 interesting score. Such pride may be the reason for your folley. For there are four posters who have not gotten answers from you, me included. Perchance that should have proven a more clear and dire indicator than the moderation.

      (by the way, if this is too verbose for you, I just read an AC's response which is much more succint. You may wish to read it.)

    34. Re:On Gay Marriage (Re:Lesbian society) by mi · · Score: 1

      So, no I have to defend myself against accusations of lying, because I read one of the AC's posts an early one, to which I actually replied -- and asked her to stop posting anonymously, or else I will not reply? Speak of ad hominem, as your referenced AC condemns me for!

      It was you, who referenced a monkey butler episode. It made no sense to me then, it does not make sense to me now, so I assumed, it must derive meaning from outside Simpsons.

      Your approving reference to the "succint" AC is very welcome, because she is much less consistent in the expressed point of view, and her misunderstanding of that of mine is a lot easier to point out. The same mistakes and other shortcomings, but easier to crack.

      Let's see, boy, it's like target practice!

      Ad hominem fallacy and a lie to boot. You have read my arguments and still do not respond. I read them as quoted by OnLawn, my respect for whom, although diminished, is still a lot higher, than for someone, who cares not and/or dares to speak under so much as a SlashDot alias.

      I'm not attacking your cherished Marriage

      Self contradiction. Akin to someone saying "I am not attacking you. Your lack of a brain is self-evident."

      Wow! No, lady, that's not, what I am saying -- you must've heard this one somewhere else :-) (This is ad hominem, BTW). An "idiot" may both be an insult and a diagnosis... What I meant was simply to observe, the Marriage is diminishing. You seem to blame me and my views for the diminishment, but that's like blaming the diminishment of the horse on the car salesman -- at least in my school of economics and philosophy (no, I'm not writing a pamphlet here, so I'm not going to develop the whole theory, which is not mine anyway). As all things, a marriage has pluses and minuses. It helps partners in life and in raising children, while holding them together and responsible for each other and forcing them into compromises for the sake of staying with each other. As productivity grows, the partners don't need as much help in life and in raising children (where they are also often aided by the state), so they are not willing to sacrifice as much for their marriage. This -- to me -- explains the growing divorce rate, and I submit, that my view is a lot better explained than the rock/tiger thing. The divorce rate is kept down a little by tradition and religion -- not unlike how the horses are still used for transportation because of people's affection for them. When OnLawn cited Sweden -- with its lower influence of religion and higher divorce rate -- it played right into my argument. Swedes' productivity may be lower, but their generous welfare state makes child rearing easy -- intentionally or not, Swedes made Marriage even less important to people. Note, that I did not express my judgement of this. Personally, I like horses very much. Nowhere do you argue that the demise of marriage, whether true or imagined, benefits society. Indeed, I don't. Nor do I call for it. Nor do I ask you to "trust me to save Marriage". I simply state my conclusions (what OnLawn refers to as "mantra"), from what I see:
      • the importance of Marriage to people is diminishing;
      • the importance of Marriage to the State never really existed.

      you seem to be of insufficiently pleasant character ("monkey butler", "pulled out", "wacko") for me to continue

      Ad Hominem and evasive. OnLawn has made no attacks on your character, yet you assail his.

      I find his language offensive (increasingly so, compared to the initial posts), and I quoted the particularly offensive terms to make it easier to comprehend. Not easy enough, I guess... Appeal to popularity and spotlighting. That's why I called it "foolish comfort", lady... Relax.

      Now, you may disagree wit

      --
      In Soviet Washington the swamp drains you.
    35. Re:On Gay Marriage (Re:Lesbian society) by On+Lawn · · Score: 1
      It was you, who referenced a monkey butler episode. It made no sense to me then, it does not make sense to me now

      Funny, you said you knew of no TV show I could be referring to --not that you didn't know what it meant. Lets look at that quote again...

      Your continuing use of the term "monkey butler" tells me nothing -- I have no idea, what children book, old saying, TV-show, or soap opera it comes from;

      Moving on...

      I read them as quoted by OnLawn, my respect for whom, although diminished, is still a lot higher, than for someone, who cares not and/or dares to speak under so much as a SlashDot alias

      Awww, your respect for me has diminished and you think AC's are less-than-humans. Can I play this elitist game too? Maybe I should start a policy of not reading posts from people with a slashdot number higher than 10000. No, don't worry I won;t. The fact is, your attacking the messenger not the messege. He could have posted as CmdrTaco or OogTheCaveMan for all I care, its the argument that counts.

      What I meant was simply to observe, the Marriage is diminishing. You seem to blame me and my views for the diminishment,

      You meant no such thing, and you are hardly just an observer in this. You chanted about replacing marriage in the state with a foster-care like program.

      I find his language offensive (increasingly so, compared to the initial posts)

      It accurately described your position, that is all. You have learned (as many do) that there are plenty of rudeness you can perpetrate on someone and get away with it if you couch it in a polite tone. You're not really all the clever to have discovered that. I've responded to your rudeness anyway, and now you say I'm the rude one?

      I fail to see any legitimate interest, the State may possibly have in Marriage other than (possibly) as a conduit to procuring new generations.

      That may be true, but that isn't my fault or the fault of any of the AC's who have posted in this thread. (Re: Lack of imagionation fallacy).

      there are no words "marriage", "spouse", "wife", "husband" in the Constitution nor in any of the Ammendments.

      Another trivial fact, but at least this one is accurate. Marriage, spouse, wife, husband are all mentioned in every law in every state in the union, and many state constitutions.

      And contraception negates the interest the state has in marriage like rubber bullets negates the need for gun laws.

      Trying to preserve Marriage for the sake of Marriage is foolish.

      I agree. Preserving marriage for the sake of the citizenry and what marriage can provide them, the state, and the future is the reason to preserve marriage.

      Justifying such attempts by Marriage's "imposition of social responsibility" is a paternalistic trampling on personal liberties at worst, and social engineering at best.

      Oh, I see. You are a part of the growing "no more grups!" movement. (Re: Miri)

      If that is how you see things than your conflict is with authority, not marriage. Marriage is not slavery, its a voluntary institution that anyone can choose to enter in or not enter in.

      All, I am proposing is for the State to shift focus. Leave the meaning of Marriage to individuals. What may concern the law is not "are you married?" but "do you raise children together?".

      I agree, the meaning of marriage should be left to individuals. It should be left to the states to define legislatively and popularly. What you've failed (time and time again) to address is just how the state knows, "do you raise children together[?]" especially if everyone gets to define that for themselves.

      If this sounds like a mere deck-reshuffling -- than why are you objecting so loudly?

      That the analogy was benign in nature was a contravance of being told as the best case y

    36. Re:On Gay Marriage (Re:Lesbian society) by On+Lawn · · Score: 1

      As all things, a marriage has pluses and minuses. It helps partners in life and in raising children, while holding them together and responsible for each other and forcing them into compromises for the sake of staying with each other. As productivity grows, the partners don't need as much help in life and in raising children (where they are also often aided by the state), so they are not willing to sacrifice as much for their marriage. This -- to me -- explains the growing divorce rate, and I submit, that my view is a lot better explained than the rock/tiger thing. The divorce rate is kept down a little by tradition and religion -- not unlike how the horses are still used for transportation because of people's affection for them. When OnLawn cited Sweden -- with its lower influence of religion and higher divorce rate -- it played right into my argument. Swedes' productivity may be lower, but their generous welfare state makes child rearing easy -- intentionally or not, Swedes made Marriage even less important to people. Note, that I did not express my judgement of this. Personally, I like horses very much.

      All your analogy to horses says is that you think marriage antiquated. However horses were antiquated by the refining of the internal combustion engine. I see no such institution that has simularly antiquited marriage.

      The closest device you mention as antiquating marriage is productivity. Productivity does not raise children, provide for children or take responsibility for children.

      Also you say that productivity means couples do not need as much resources in raising children, yet the benefits (unnamed) you wish to cut are for people without children.

      Also a much more direct line can be drawn between "partners don't need as much help in life and in raising children (where they are also often aided by the state), so they are not willing to sacrifice as much for their marriage," as that is a product of the state welfare not requiring marriage. Productivity in and of itself has nothing to do with it except provide a means to pay for the state welfare (As mentioned in the Sweden Essay). And as you are against the paternalizing of government, you would then be apposed to the institution that is (as you put it) negating the need for marriage.

      And none of this even counters my observation that marriage is just as potent, useful and valuable to the individual and the state as ever.

    37. Re:On Gay Marriage (Re:Lesbian society) by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      So, no I have to defend myself against accusations of lying, because I read one of the AC's posts an early one, to which I actually replied -- and asked her to stop posting anonymously, or else I will not reply? Speak of ad hominem, as your referenced AC condemns me for!

      Some defense. You admit the lie (wrong AC, btw). Look up ad hominem while you're at it. Saying "You are a liar," is ad hominem. Saying "X statement is a lie," is not.

      Your approving reference to the "succint" AC is very welcome, because she is much less consistent in the expressed point of view, and her misunderstanding of that of mine is a lot easier to point out. The same mistakes and other shortcomings, but easier to crack.

      Let's see, inconsistencies, misunderstandings, mistakes, shortcomings. Roger. You'll point them out I'm sure.

      Let's see, boy, it's like target practice!

      Fire when ready.

      I read them as quoted by OnLawn, my respect for whom, although diminished, is still a lot higher, than for someone, who cares not and/or dares to speak under so much as a SlashDot alias.

      Add this to your examples of ad hominem fallacies. Registering with slashdot is an individual choice and has no bearing on the validity of an argument. You are running from boogeymen again by assigning nefarious motives to those who question your ideas.

      No, lady, that's not, what I am saying -- you must've heard this one somewhere else...What I meant was simply to observe, the Marriage is diminishing.

      OK. Technically you are pointing out a "misunderstanding" here. That leaves inconcistencies, mistakes, and shortcomings. (BTW, why do you think someone else told me you don't have a brain? I assure you the example was hypothetical. Boogeymen again?)

      As productivity grows, the partners don't need as much help in life and in raising children (where they are also often aided by the state), so they are not willing to sacrifice as much for their marriage. This -- to me -- explains the growing divorce rate, and I submit, that my view is a lot better explained than the rock/tiger thing.

      Post hoc ergo propter hoc. Your argument and Lisa's argument are both examples of the same fallacy. Yours cannot be "better."

      ...from what I see:

      • the importance of Marriage to people is diminishing;
      • the importance of Marriage to the State never really existed.

      This is what you see? To date you have merely argued this as the conclusion one must reach for accepting your definition of marriage. By all means, present your empirical evidence that the state never had an interest in marriage. (Don't circle back around to your definition of marriage again. That merely begs the question.)

      I fail to see any legitimate interest, the State may possibly have in Marriage other than (possibly) as a conduit to procuring new generations.

      Argument from ignorance. The argument does not compel me to believe you so much as it compels you to reread this thread. Answer these two questions. A "no" to either question means the government has no interest in marriage.

      1. Does the government have an interest in children?
      2. Do marriages produce children?

      Suggesting, Marriage needs government support to survive, is a much worse attack on it, than anything you may have derived from my words. This institution predates any government...

      Strawman. Nobody is suggesting marriage needs government support any more than they are suggesting liberty needs government support. Liberty has existed from time immemorial, you surely you do not claim liberty is unaffected by government action. Do you call the Bill of Rights a subsidy of liberty?

      Government does not now subsidize marriage, neither does it

    38. Re:On Gay Marriage (Re:Lesbian society) by mi · · Score: 1
      It was you, who referenced a monkey butler episode. It made no sense to me then, it does not make sense to me now[, so I assumed, it must derive meaning from outside Simpsons.]

      Funny, you said you knew of no TV show I could be referring to --not that you didn't know what it meant. Lets look at that quote again...

      Your continuing use of the term "monkey butler" tells me nothing -- I have no idea, what children book, old saying, TV-show, or soap opera it comes from;

      Are you still suggesting I'm lying? I thought, I explained myself in the part of my quote, which you carefully cut out -- shown above in bold. This dirty trick alone speaks tons of your integrity, sir. I don't need to be rude -- you are caught red-handed.

      So, if you see any other reason for the State to be interested in Marriage -- go ahead and state it. Anything else (especially -- blasting me for avoiding everything else) just hides the real issue.

      You present a idea, your idea is questioned and you avoid the questions, and we are the ones hiding issues?

      Yes, you are -- right in this quote above. Instead of answering a direct question, you blame me for not seeing the answers myself. How convenient...

      I gave you enough of the benefit of the doubt, but you keep on trying to fit me into one of the known groups, so you can respond with a pre-made response. And you proved to be dishonest. So long.

      ...Plonk...

      --
      In Soviet Washington the swamp drains you.
    39. Re:On Gay Marriage (Re:Lesbian society) by On+Lawn · · Score: 1
      I thought, I explained myself in the part of my quote, which you carefully cut out... "so I assumed, it must derive meaning from outside Simpsons."

      It is a much clearer example of your contradiction. It is where you admited you knew of the Simpsons reference even though you said you were not aware of any TV show.

      Also there wasn't even a need to look elsewhere for meaning, it was sufficiently defined at the time. The Simpson's use of the "Monkey Butler" was to describe the delusion of the ignorant, where nature was somehow a servant to ones self-centeredness. Its reference every time after that was to mark where you used a simular device. The most glaring example (which you continue to press through an appeal to your own proclaimed sincerity), "what I'm proposing will do no harm to marriage or the State". You have presented no evidence to back up such a claim, and simply ignored evidence discrediting your claim.

      Instead of answering a direct question, you blame me for not seeing the answers myself. How convenient...

      You are the one who admits you didn't see the answers when you said, "I fail to see any legitimate interest, the State may possibly have in Marriage other than (possibly) as a conduit to procuring new generations." As I said previously, "That may be true, but that isn't my fault or the fault of any of the AC's who have posted in this thread. (Re: Lack of imagionation fallacy)."

      Indeed, the answers have been provided via hyperlink time and time again in this thread --as well as stated explicitly. Other state interests in marriage include health, longevity, and increased productivity even in childless couples (and benefits that do nt seem to be apperent in same-sex unions). In fact, the AC you started to in the begining said that also, to your apperently deaf ears.

      The main foil of the arguement from ignorance when another reader has seen just what you turned a blind eye toward, thus exposing your ignorance as willful. Such an excercize is left for the reader lest I be accused of stacking the deck or forumulating "pre-made responses". Others read that link, apperently you did not. And now you are left looking pretty foolish.

      And either way, even if the state only cared about child rearing, saying that marriages are of no worth until there is a child is like saying gun safety laws are of no use until the bullet is heading towards someones head. Preperation for child-birth is beneficial, an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure.

      I have not been dishonest, but you have proved to fulfill this AC's prophecy...

      The pattern is now complete. Like the other anti-marriage hacks you started with an unsupported idea and end up hurling unsupported accusations. You start discussing an argument, you leave discussing the arguers.
  75. Good news for lesbian couples by Per+Abrahamsen · · Score: 1

    Or will be, once/if the technology get ready.

  76. They're working on artificial egg cells. by Moderation+abuser · · Score: 4, Interesting


    http://www.scienceblog.com/community/older/2003/ E/ 20032622.html

    And on artificial wombs:

    http://observer.guardian.co.uk/international/sto ry /0,6903,648024,00.html

    So in 20 years or so, neither men nor women will be required for reproduction.

    --
    Government of the people, by corporate executives, for corporate profits.
    1. Re:They're working on artificial egg cells. by zhenlin · · Score: 1

      So... what would be the point of living? Isn't that what's life about, to make more of itself?

      I suppose, since most animals/plants have a purpose [to us] beyond reproduction, it could become useful...

    2. Re:They're working on artificial egg cells. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

      So in 20 years or so, neither men nor women will be required for reproduction.

      I guess it's no longer reproduction then, is it? Sounds more like simple production to me.

    3. Re:They're working on artificial egg cells. by Moderation+abuser · · Score: 1

      It would be if you were coding the DNA by hand.

      --
      Government of the people, by corporate executives, for corporate profits.
    4. Re:They're working on artificial egg cells. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
      So in 20 years or so, neither men nor women will be required for reproduction.
      Maybe sooner than that, if sheep find a way of building vibrators!
  77. How? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    How would this possibly be of interest to a Slashdot nerd?

  78. So... by X86Daddy · · Score: 2, Funny
    Will the christian response be to:
    • scream and rant about a mouse having two mommies
    • jump, clap, and gesticulate about parthenogenysis being proven

    I guess they'll have to deliberate over this one first. :-)
  79. OT - so sue me by paiute · · Score: 1

    Big Black Nemesis, parthenogenesis
    No one move a muscle as the dead come home

    Am I the only one that was impressed when a rock band worked the word parthenogenesis into a song?

    Bloody great mondegreen bait.

    --
    If Slashdot were chemistry it would look like this:Cadaverine
  80. A mouse with two mobos by cHALiTO · · Score: 1

    Am I the only one that read the title and thought "what?? a mouse with two motherboards?? Eh?!?!"

    and then read the rest =P

    --
    "Luck is my middle name," said Rincewind, indistinctly. "Mind you, my first name is Bad." -- Terry Pratchett
  81. Bible translation error by Wirr · · Score: 4, Funny

    Ahhh, that explains it.

    The word in the bible is not supposed to read virgin, but H19 deficient.
    Easy mistake to make.

    1. Re:Bible translation error by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Actually in the bible it was "young woman" wich they then translated into "virgin".
      Can be an easy mistake, too.

  82. Who gets to take out the trash? by Manassas · · Score: 1

    Who gets to take out the trash?

  83. Ah, the messiah of the mice by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I'm still waiting for someone to explain spontaneous parthogenesis in a human.

  84. lovely by comet69 · · Score: 1, Funny

    man.. women no longer need us.. men are becoming obsolete.. thats just fuckin great...

    --
    - Hi I'm Linus Torvalds and I pronounce Linux, Lih-nix..
  85. Seksmisja by zby · · Score: 1

    You should see that: http://imdb.com/title/tt0088083/

    1. Re:Seksmisja by zby · · Score: 1

      You should see this:
      Seksmisja.

  86. Not in this country by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    If they even get close to testing this out on humans, the Bible-thumping minority that run the US will ban it in a heartbeat. The so-called religious right has a conniption over just the idea of same-sex couples marrying. I can only imagine the hue and cry if lesbian couples could actually procreate without any need of a man whatsoever.

    It will be national if that bastard Bush steals another election, but if someone else is President, the ban will probably just be in the oh-so-intolerant southern states.

    1. Re:Not in this country by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      the Bible-thumping minority

      Err, some 77% of the US population regards themselves as "christian". Granted, the split regarding abortion and cloning is closer to 50/50 but minority is the wrong descriptor...

      The so-called religious right...

      Again, their religious (mostly christian) and their policies are certainly on the right side of the agenda, nothing so-called about it...

      if that bastard Bush steals another election

      Newsflash time, Bush won the last election... Look up the differences between direct democracy and republic before you go whining about stolen elections

  87. Re:Baby Jesus -- need a source for Y chromosome! by Fancia · · Score: 0, Offtopic

    Curse you, jelly jar! One of these days, I'll best you. One of these days...

    --

    Bít, zabít, jen proto, ze su liska!
  88. This is NOT good news... by MoeMoe · · Score: 1

    As if being a geek didn't make getting women hard enough... Now what do they need us for?!

    --
    Business \Busi"ness\, n.;
    A scam in which all people involved perceive as beneficial...
  89. new textbook for gradeschool kids... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    "Minnie Has Two Mommies"

  90. Unless you are a nerd by phorm · · Score: 4, Funny

    Are you kidding me... where else could females find that friend to:
    "Confide her intimate relationship problems in excruciating detail while at the same time telling you she wishes she could meet a 'decent' man"

    Male nerds, don't tell me this hasn't happened to you.

    1. Re:Unless you are a nerd by Merkuri22 · · Score: 1

      Sometimes it goes the other way, too. I once had a guy do this to me. ;)

      --female geek

    2. Re:Unless you are a nerd by phorm · · Score: 1

      It's probably one of the drawbacks to friendship between genders, the inevitable crush-on-a-friend which becomes a bit of a gutkick when it's not returned.

      That being said... hey wait a second, did you say female geek? Will you marry me!

    3. Re:Unless you are a nerd by adamofgreyskull · · Score: 1

      Friend of mine has been getting a lot of attention from guys on her course who she doesn't fancy. She said "Why is it only the geeks that fancy me?" OOF!

      *Another* friend of mine does the same thing, she'll see nothing wrong with saying, "why can't more guys be like you?" WHAT AM I? CHOPPED LIVER?! I'M A GUY LIKE ME!!!

    4. Re:Unless you are a nerd by Merkuri22 · · Score: 1

      *rolls eyes* Yes, we do exist.

      And if you can figure out how to email me a ring, then we'll talk about it. ;)

    5. Re:Unless you are a nerd by phorm · · Score: 1

      Actually, I think the nerd stereotype is a bit overrated.

      I haven't had many problems with the ladies, although my lack of focus on more *physical* aspects has led many a female friend to treat me more like a eunuch and thus I end up in the friend zone.

      Meeting a real geek girl though... well it seems that most of the ones I've met fall into the antisocial category - not my cup of tea.

      I doubt I'm all that desperate enough to "email" somebody a ring, although I'm sure you knew I was joking anyhow. You could always send me an email or nab my ICQ though, decent geeky conversation is hard to come by sometimes :-)

    6. Re:Unless you are a nerd by Merkuri22 · · Score: 1

      Like many geeks, regardless of gender, I'd probably end up in the antisocial category. At least I used to, I'm getting better. ;)

      And yes, I knew you were joking. If you really had sent me a ring then you'd probably end up labeled "stalker" in my book and you'd never hear from me again. ;) ...not that I'd just take the jewelry and run. I'd neeever do that... *innocentlook*

    7. Re:Unless you are a nerd by N1KO · · Score: 1

      It could be worse, when she started talking about her relationship problems I found out she was a lesbian. In a span of 2-3 minutes she went from possible girlfriend -> maybe not -> absolutely no chance.

    8. Re:Unless you are a nerd by shiftless · · Score: 1

      Yeah, and how many of those girls did you ever get laid by?

      Thought so.

    9. Re:Unless you are a nerd by phorm · · Score: 1

      Of the ones that considered me a "good friend?" None, obviously, but why would I have. Now with other girlfriends/relationships... a few, at least enough for sex to lose its mystique and for me to realize that there are in fact more important things than sex.

      Geeks can get laid, in fact in many cases (unless you're very unattractive) it's probably easier to get a quick lay than find a good relationship. And of course, constantly mentioning one's need to get laid is a good way to... well... not get laid... or meet a girl - which is probably why kiddies like you are a little short in your abilities with women.

    10. Re:Unless you are a nerd by shiftless · · Score: 1

      Of the ones that considered me a "good friend?" None, obviously, but why would I have. Now with other girlfriends/relationships... a few, at least enough for sex to lose its mystique and for me to realize that there are in fact more important things than sex.

      Geeks can get laid, in fact in many cases (unless you're very unattractive) it's probably easier to get a quick lay than find a good relationship. And of course, constantly mentioning one's need to get laid is a good way to... well... not get laid... or meet a girl - which is probably why kiddies like you are a little short in your abilities with women.


      Haha, you stupid fucker, first the point went *right* over your head, then you had the audacity to sling your little insult at me.

      The point, since you so eloquently missed it, is this- these chicks that come to you all the time to talk about their problems? They're *using* you.
      Even the dumbest high school student understands this. She has a need, and she comes to you to fulfill it, then throws you away. Most girls do this, it's a common phenomenon, yet you seem to be oblivious (or just don't give a shit- maybe it feeds your ego to think that someone "needs" you for something)?

      And exactly what is more important than sex from a reproduction standpoint? I'm sure, being the intellectual guy you claim to be, you know that the whole point of life on any scale is reproduction.

      As regards to my "abilities with women", can it, asswipe. You don't know me, and it's irrelevant.

    11. Re:Unless you are a nerd by phorm · · Score: 1

      Actually, there's nothing wrong with a girl "bitching" to you about her problems, personal or not. When she needs advice about a guy, whom better to ask than a guy? It's just when there are feelings on my part for the female in question that things have gotten dicey, but that's my issue, not hers.

      As for your abilities with women and my not knowing you... I'm feeling a *terrible* loss at not being more informed... really.

      Though your previous statements, somehow I think you're more like the type that the girls complain to me about...

  91. Oh Great! by Luscious868 · · Score: 2, Funny

    Rosie O'Donnell is going to fave a field day with this one!

  92. I'm not worried by protect_the_code · · Score: 1

    I don't think this will replace men. In order for this type of ARTIFICIAL reproduction to work in humans, or any mammal species, we would need to start genetically engineering women with eggs-that-think-like-sperm. Then those eggs would need collecting while they're still immature and stored away safely. Plus the article stated it took about 460 tries to get the process to work.

    Start imagining the expenses of running groups of scientists working hard enough to equal or exceed the current death rate while creating new humans in laboratories using those eggs-that-think-like-sperm and eggs from the prospective mother (in this case the mother refers to the woman bearing the child). So to make one baby we need 460 eggs-that-think-like-sperm and 460 eggs from the mother in order to make 1 new human baby. And now we need to do that enough to equal the death rate or exceed it.

    Plus if the offspring from this turn out genetically normal, that means these new women won't have eggs-that-think-like-sperm so we still need factories producing new baby girls with those eggs-that-think-like-sperm.

    Now compare that with the cost of a good heterosexual f***. I don't think men are going anywhere for a very long time.

  93. Damn! by joeykiller · · Score: 1

    As if it wasn't difficult enough for a geek to get laid in the first place, now the chicks don't even need us for reproduction...

  94. Kaguya is one sucess from 460 attempts at growing by m1chael · · Score: 0

    "Kaguya is one success from 460 attempts at growing embryos."

    I like those odds!

    --
    I know you are psychotic, but please make an effort.
  95. jurassic park by MoFoQ · · Score: 1

    looks like jurassic park might be possible.
    Of course, this means we can bring back like the wooly mammoth as a whole. The current project was to use wooly mammoth dna and mix it with an elephant (probably the African elephant as they are bigger) and implant it in an elephant. Then take that and result and mix that with wooly mammoth dna and so on to reduce the "elephant" dna portion of it. But with this new technique, we can get a fully 100% wooly mammoth on the first try.

    Other animals like the sabertooth, iguanadon, etc. can also be brought back, though I'd urge caution as this is another pandora's box.

  96. sigh, again by dAzED1 · · Score: 3, Informative
    2 important details most people are missing.

    First, the alternate mother was a mutant. As they started to mention, she had a gene knocked out - a gene that supresses the expresion of about 1000 other genes.

    Second, an X from a female will not align with an X from another female (because of the above, and other reasons). What they effectively did was make a female mouse that could make X chromosomes that behaved in the same way that X chromosomes from a male behave.
    To have this occur in humans, they'd have to figure out how to create a mutant human female that produced X chromosomes that behaved like the X chromosomes a male produces. They'd then have to take said X chromosomes out of her eggs, and match them with her partner's eggs, just like in this experiment. As such, this has absolutely no implications for lesbians, unless one just happens to be such a mutant already somehow (they aren't).


    The research has little impact on allowing lesbians to reproduce. The process for doing that to two women, when neither is a mutant, is a wholy seperate process. In vitro fertilization is about as related to the eventual female reproduction potential as this experiement is (and this experiment is only that related simply because it *involves* IVF). This has no new implications for that eventuality.

  97. Eh. by ksilebo · · Score: 1

    I for one welcome our new female overlords.

  98. Death by Snu-Snu by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    So as much as I'm looking forward to an all lesbian (but bi curious) amazon go-go dancer future

    Yeah, but the first time someone sees a spider or a centipede the whole society will fall with no men to get rid of the offending creepy crawlies.

  99. Mod 'rent up by Paulrothrock · · Score: 1

    "Why aren't there more guys like you?"

    Translation: "Why aren't you hot and popular?"

    --
    I'm in the hole of the broadband donut.
  100. Mouse with two Mothers by rossy · · Score: 1
    A lot of discussion has jumped to the human girl with two mothers.

    My alleged mind recalls a 50's vintage science fiction movie, or Outer Limits where woman were able to reproduce without men, eliminating or converting male fetuses to female prior to birth.

    Does anyone else recall this movie.. or was this somthing that was projected into my mind while I was sleeping on the slab, and I got a different revision of the playback than everyone else?

    I should have taken the blue pill.

    --
    Ross Youngblood
    1. Re:Mouse with two mothers by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      This must be a hard day being a male mouse.

  101. Ha, ha, ha! MOD PARENT UP! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Hehehehe ... yeah ... her and Ellen Degeneris both!

  102. Whoops by Perianwyr+Stormcrow · · Score: 1

    The bible thumpers really are a minority. If you asked identified "Christians" how many consider themselves "Evangelical" that might be a more reliable indicator.

    That having been said, a larger slice of the population would have a problem with this situation, not just the hardcore Christians.

    --

    What we call folk wisdom is often no more than a kind of expedient stupidity.-Edward Abbey

    1. Re:Whoops by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      And the worst part, I'm a good agnostic libertarian but here I am sticking up for them...

  103. Explanation of MS raid? by griffjon · · Score: 1

    Well, this explains why the Japanese raided MS's offices. Not for any anti-trust information, but merely to find a template for cloning new little rat bastards.

    --
    Returned Peace Corps IT Volunteer
  104. It's official by Britz · · Score: 2, Funny

    I long dreaded the day this would come. Now it is official, guys, we are superfluous now.

    That's it. Dead meat. Face it! What would the girls need a guy for. I guess now we have to come with something fast, or the guys born now will soon become the last of their gender. Please think of something quick.

    And don't be so lame as to go: Spider Squashers (what do You think they will come up with next: Spider Squashing Robots).

  105. No father needed? by OhioJoe · · Score: 2, Funny

    Note to self: Learn how to give good backrubs.

    --
    "Artificial Intelligence usually beats real stupidity."
  106. More properly hermaphroditism by Thinkit4 · · Score: 2, Informative

    Parthenogenesis can only occur where a haploid individual is viable, such as in bees (that's how the drone males are produced). This is more closely hermaphroditic reproduction, similar to earthworms, where they exchange genetic material and both become pregnant.

    --
    -I am an elective eunuch.
  107. Spammers already taking advantage... by shigelojoe · · Score: 1

    Here's some spam that just landed in my inbox:

    "Hot m0use lesbian action xisoofle345"

    "These r0d3nts dont needd men 14erff34k"

    "Minnie likes th3 1adiez bmw nixon"

  108. No premission for two male genes by Tribbin · · Score: 2, Funny

    Tokyo University of Agriculture did not get permission to try the same with two male mice.

    Tokyo government agreed that this might form some sort of mighty-mouse.

    There is no way to cage this product if it gets angry.

    --
    If you mod this up, your slashdot background will turn into a beautiful sunset!
  109. great, we need a longer, more spefic Greek word by tjw · · Score: 1

    It took me 5 tries to mentally pronounce this one correctly. I'de have just given up on Neoparthenogenesis and mumbled "neo*cough*pa*cough*esis" to myself as I read.

    --

    XJS*C4JDBQADN1.NSBN3*2IDNEN*GTUBE-STANDARD-ANTI-UB E-TEST-EMAIL*C.34X
  110. Oh Canada!!! by Jennifer+E.+Elaan · · Score: 1
    *just starts singing the Canadian anthem*

    (no, this is perfectly on topic, if you read the news...)

  111. B5 by sckeener · · Score: 1

    In an episode on Babylon 5, one species was dieing off because they wiped out another sentient species that they infrequently swapped genes with.

    Even if they perfected Fem to Fem breeding, I suspect B5 concept of not knowing what gene's you'll need would come back to bite us.

    --
    "Only one thing, is impossible for god: to find any sense in any copyright law on the planet." Mark Twain
  112. Hey!! I'm a lesbian geek... by adamofgreyskull · · Score: 1

    ...trapped in a man's body.

    1. Re:Hey!! I'm a lesbian geek... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I hear they can correct that nowadays. I salute you, mighty She-Ra!

  113. A woman needs a fish... by adamofgreyskull · · Score: 1

    ...like a man needs a bicycle.

    Men are good for lots of things:
    - lifting up bonnets, taking sharp intakes of breath and muttering with arms folded.
    - navigating unfamiliar terrain without stopping for directions, and in only twice the time a woman would
    - weeing really really high against walls
    - throwing.
    - disposing of 2 day old takeaway food

    Those are just a few of the things we're good fer, now quit yer yapping and get back in the kitchen :o)

    1. Re:A woman needs a fish... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      An ex-girlfriend of mine showed me that not only can a woman pee standing, but she can easily outdistance a man. On the other hand, simple physics dictates that a fluid travelling inside a pipe as opposed to through free air is subject to friction against the walls of the pipe ..... in my case, that meant about an extra 25cm. or so's worth of frictional drag.

  114. The Brick Testament... by adamofgreyskull · · Score: 1

    ...puts a humorous slant on the needless idiocy and barbarism of the bible, here, but only just.

  115. Actually, Kaguya by Valdrax · · Score: 1

    The surviving mouse was named Kaguya after that girl in the Japanese legend of a bamboo-cutter who finds a baby in a bamboo sheaf. He raises her (with gold he find in more bamboo sheafs later) to be a woman whose wit and beauty attract suitors from all over. She has no desire to marry and gives them all impossible tasks to earn her hand to get rid of them and catches all the frauds. In the end, she tearfully confesses to her father that she comes from the moon and allowed herself to be born on Earth to experience life here but must go back to her people.

    It's a bizarre little legend.

    --
    If it's for-profit but free, you're not the customer -- you're the product (e.g., the Slashdot Beta's "audience").
  116. Fuck! I can't get laid _NOW_ by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    How the hell am I going to get any if the women can screw themselves?

  117. Re:Not only does this help remove the need for men by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Damn you scientest people. First you give them vibraters now this. Damn you!

  118. Geeks Unite! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Well if the Women find Men Obsolete,

    Time to build your girl robot!!!

    (just not an armed fembot...)

  119. In my book by phorm · · Score: 1

    That works out better... you get a good female friend, you can *both* complain about women, and you don't have to worry about mixed signals. Friendships between genders becomes mainly a problem in the "maybe" zone, or when mixed signals are coming across. Pretty hard to get confused when she's scoping out the same women you are :-)

  120. predicted in 1968 by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    http://www.ai.mit.edu/~shivers/rants/scum.html

    The
    SCUM Manifesto
    by Valerie Solanas

    Life in this society being, at best, an utter bore and no aspect of society being at all relevant to women, there remains to civic-minded, responsible, thrill-seeking females only to overthrow the government, eliminate the money system, institute complete automation and destroy the male sex.

    It is now technically feasible to reproduce without the aid of males (or, for that matter, females) and to produce only females. We must begin immediately to do so. Retaining the male has not even the dubious purpose of reproduction. The male is a biological accident: the Y (male) gene is an incomplete X (female) gene, that is, it has an incomplete set of chromosomes. In other words, the male is an incomplete female, a walking abortion, aborted at the gene stage. To be male is to be deficient, emotionally limited; maleness is a deficiency disease and males are emotional cripples.

  121. How sex works for other species by geoswan · · Score: 1
    Sex is wonder and mysterious. Vive le difference. I wouldn't have it any other way. I was delighted to learn it is much more mysterious than I thought. Sex in birds doesn't work the same way as it does in mammals. Quoting from the linked document:
    Birds are different in that their male and female sex-chromosome roles are reversed from mammals, meaning that the female is heterozygous and the male is homozygous. Also, in birds we use Z and W instead of X and Y. (These letters refer to the general shapes of the chromosomes.) So, a male bird is ZZ, and a female bird is ZW. This leads us to the topic of sex-linked traits.

    And it works ever more weirdly in social insects like bees. In those species the male drone doesn't have a pair of chromosomes at all. In bees the hive's queen was fertilized on her nuptial flight, and carries a lifetime's supply of sperm. The workers are virgin females. But, unlike what I was taught when I was a kid, they are not sterile. They too can lay eggs -- unfertilized eggs. And these unfertilized eggs, with only a single set of chromosomes, not a pair, can hatch, and grow to maturity, to produce the male drones.

    Lol. It irritates me when fans of the Aliens movies refer to the worker aliens as drones.

    1. Re:How sex works for other species by geoswan · · Score: 1

      Here is a link about honeybee genetics.

    2. Re:How sex works for other species by geoswan · · Score: 1

      Another weird one, the anglerfish. The male bites the female, taps into her bloodstream, and most of his organs wither away, except for his sexual organs.

  122. Squeaker Has Two Mommies by FrenchyinCT · · Score: 1
    Honestly, guys, just what ARE you good for anymore? With women in the workplace earning their own money, we don't need you as a Golden Paycheck anymore; with equal rights, we don't need you to rubber-stamp our wants and needs before we can have them; with dashboard computers, we won't need you for parallel parking; with Japanese robots, we won't need you to take out the garbage; with vibrators, we don't need you for sexual satisfaction; and with artificial parthenogenesis, we won't even need you to make babies.

    Boys, you are as officially irrelevant, archaic and obsolete as eight-dot-three file naming. ;)