Mac OS X "Tiger" Server Previewed

Remaining unmentioned in Steve Jobs' keynote speech at WWDC today are the many updates to the Server cousin of Mac OS X. As with the Panther Server release, Tiger Server will focus on open source, Windows, and ease of use. A preview DVD was, as with Tiger client, given out to WWDC attendees. Tiger will include some new content server options, including blojsom, a Java-powered "blog" server, which was inspired by Rael Dornfest's bloxsom.

It also adds a Jabber server that provides the option of serving iChat. SSL/TLS and Kerberos can be added for security. A single Tiger iChat client can have chats running on multiple servers, so a user can be on the main iChat server, while having private chats on a company server. Because it is Jabber, non-iChat (and non-AIM) clients can participate too.

Tiger Server also works to make network setup even easier with Internet Gateway Setup Assistant. In Panther Server, setting up a network with DNS, DHCP, NAT, firewall, and port mapping was easier than most other platforms, but still required a good deal of manual configuration, and separate configuration of each service. The Setup Assistant will provide single-button setup of it all.

A Software Update Server can cache and control Apple software updates. So once you're satisfied that the new OS update won't delete home folders, you can OK it for your users to download; and they won't take up your Internet bandwidth, because the server cached it.

Mobile Home Directories allows a mobile user to sync his home directory with a central server, backing it up and allowing an admin to manage it.

A new Windows migration tool will allow Windows admins to migrate from Windows-based servers. Tiger Server can act as a Primary Domain Controller for a Windows network, and the tool will migrate user and group account from an existing Windows PDC into Open Directory 2 and Samba 3.

Tiger Server will retain the pricing structure of the previous versions: $500 for the 10-client edition and $1000 for the unlimited client edition (the number of clients referring only to simultaneous file sharing clients).

Comments

Jabber

[einhverfr]

I find it interesting (and cool) that Apple seems to be throwing their weight behind Jabber.

But one question I have is this: What market is currently being targetted by the OS X Servers? I see some posts on all the general email lists I am on (PostgreSQL anyway), but not too many, leading me to conclude it is a niche market. Any thoughts?

Re:Jabber

[Neil Blender]

What market is currently being targetted by the OS X Servers?

Life sciences, for one. Apple has always had a stronghold in that area (at least academics) and I know of several companies that are selling server based products which initially ran on Linux or a unix variant that are now running on OS X.

Re:Jabber

[stilwebm]

What market is currently being targetted by the OS X Servers?

Someone else mentioned life sciences. They also seek the K-12 Academic markets where it's hard to employ a full time network admin to set up Active Directory, Exchange Server, etc. The same applies for small businesses, those who are likely to prefer the idea of one server does all (or most) of the services they need, especially email and file sharing. Another big market (almost the cliche Apple niche) is the creative market, from media agencies to smaller publishers to design/creative departments at larger companies. Often these organizations don't employ a full time admin, leaving that to outside companies and a designated person within the group. In the case of a creative department within a larger company, they often have a disconnect between the rest of the company (being on Macs while the rest of the company is on PC, for example) along with different needs.

leading me to conclude it is a niche market

As Apple adds more features to OS X server, they hope to please their existing niches while making it apparent to others that they can easily configure a complex server without having to rely on Microsoft. They get the stability and security associated with open source plus the ease of use from Apple.

Re:Jabber

[afish40]

I currently administer a private school running 10.3 Server on an Xserve G4. I'm very much looking forward to these new features, such as Mobile Home Directories. Currently, we're going to implement third-party alternatives for backing up the student's files (they all have iBooks they can take home), but this looks to be a much better solution.

Re:Jabber

[Anonymous Coward]

I'd be willing to bet that most XServe sales are to places that use mostly Macintosh desktops and want the best level of File+Print integration. (AKA, the same people who bought the old Apple 'servers').

There's a lot of PR about using XServes as a Lintel or even Wintel replacement, but other than scientific clusters, I don't think it's happening yet.

Re:Jabber

[linuxelf]

The Publishing industry has been mostly Macintosh oriented for a long time. I work for a large metropolitan newspaper, and we really love the new G5's, and the stability and ease of management offered by OS X. We used to have quite a few file servers that ran on Windows with Extreme Z-IP for appletalk file sharing. Now, we've migrated all of them to OS X with Samba for Windows sharing.

Re:Jabber

[Johnny Mnemonic]

, leading me to conclude it is a niche market. Any thoughts?

I'd be kidding you if I told you it wasn't. How it's actually being used, of course, only Apple's Sales manager knows--but I can tell you the target market:

• Graphic dept skunkworks--they need a fileserver for their Macs and some PCs. Apple does fileserving really well; 500MB a minute over AFP.
• Schools who need management of low needs users, but the security has to be pretty tied down. By "low-needs", I mean no App serving, etc.
• Designed for SOHO users--have an office of 6? Want business email, brochure-ware web site, some collab share points? Throw an Xserve in and forget the licensing.
• Also, Apple is trying to get more and more into the HPC space, with Xgrid, Xsan, XRaid, and Cluster Node Xserves. Some sucess with this; I think there's quite a few 12-node clusters sititng in corner someplace, and all IT knows about them is that they have one less IP to give out.

Still niche, yes: they don't run 10,000 employees with Workgroup Manager, for example. But it serves as a good fileserver when a the extra workstations just can't quite keep up, or when the workgroup uses Macs for whatever reason and needs a server to help them work better amongst themselves (without necessarily involving IT).

Re:Jabber

[psbrogna]

I received my xServer G5 w/OS X yesterday. I work at a small publishing company that has a fishbowl full of about 10 servers 3-4 yr old servers running a mix of BSD, RedHat and MS Windows Server. All but 1-2 of these servers will be replaced by the xServer, simplifying server maintenance/admin tasks. The only reason that 1-2 will remain behind is because of a few apps that will require MS SQL. The xServer came with all the pieces that we were using under various *ix OS's; Apache, mySQL, PHP, Cyrus IMAP, Samba, LDAP, etc. I'm very bullish at how this will simplify things and reduce the number of hours spent administrating the server infrastructure. Not to mention the reduced load on our HVAC plant.

Re:Jabber

[Qbertino]

But one question I have is this: What market is currently being targetted by the OS X Servers?

The zero-fuss-open-source-aware,-non-x86-crappiness, fully-unix-compliant all-top-notch-reference-grade-quality open-source-goodies-preinstalled and operational out-of-the-box-with-two-mouseclicks-maximum market.

Gues how long it takes me to have phpCMS or Typo running on Mac OS X? Or any other MySQL/PHP/Apache Webapp? Something between 30 seconds and a minute. Try that with any other Computer. Now they come with a jabber server and a java based oss blogger and a ton of other features that makes everyone who knows what these features mean drool.

I'd say the market for OS X Servers is pretty healthy and in for some steep and steady growth.
All I can say is I'm sold. If there is any project due that requires me to deliver a server, Apple is going to be the first place I'm going to look.

Re:Jabber

[AcornWeb]

They also seek the K-12 Academic markets where it's hard to employ a full time network admin to set up Active Directory, Exchange Server, etc.

And they only charge $500 (educational price) for the unlimited-client version of 10.3 Server. Very nice.

Re:Jabber

[mbbac]

iChat has been using the Jabber protocol for their Rendezvous enabled chat since it was released. I keep hoping they'll support external Jabber servers too.

Re:Jabber

[Anonymous Coward]

Oracle released 10.1.0.3 as a developer release, but the other "mainline" ports are 10.1.0.2 so I would wonder/hope that OS.X will become much more mainline.

Re:Jabber

[EvilTwinSkippy]

Small, overworked, data centers.

I run an IT department with 4 people to service 200 users, an AS/400 based finance system, 30 ticket stations, 4 MSSQL databases, a retail store, 2 remote locations, in-house email, web services, and NT domain services. And when we aren't doing that, we are setting up a network for a traveling show that's coming in, or a for a rental.

We just bought a bunch of them to take over for our gaggle of Dell boxes that are EOL. We wanted 24 hour warm-body support. We wanted to be able to pre-buy spare parts. We wanted something off the shelf that pretty much used all the software we use today. (Postfix, MySQL, Samba.)

We will still use Gentoo on x86 for all our front-line stuff. (DNS, firewall, web serving) but we have 2 servers that have to be up, rain or shine, and stay running with a minimum of disruption for 3 years at a time. Gentoo is great, but new versions of stuff breaking our site configurations almost cost me my job on a few occasions.

Re:Jabber

[bluepinstripe]

As the parent post said, life sciences. I work for a large government life sciences research institue, and about half of our total computer base is Macs. There are a lot of labs that use older G4s as if they were servers, and will probably upgrade to X servers over time. Given the general level of ease of use and "reliablity" of our Microsoft equipment--which mirrors my experience pertty much everywhere I have ever worked--these labs would never accept a Microsoft solution.

Re:Jabber

[Twirlip of the Mists]

Panther Server makes an excellent general-purpose small business server. I set one up for a friend a few weekends ago. It's their directory server, provides DHCP, runs a web server, hosts the company's mail (installing SpamAssassin was the usual pain in the ass, but I see now that it's included in Tiger Server), is their FTP server, supports VPN connections via IPsec, and provides file services via AppleShare, NFS, and SMB. It's also their database (with FileMaker Pro, but Oracle or PostgreSQL or Sybase would work too) and their scheduling hub (MeetingMaker).

And it's all running on a 500 MHz Power Mac G4.

I don't know about targeting that market, but it's a great solution for that market.

Re:Jabber

[Twirlip of the Mists]

Apple does fileserving really well; 500MB a minute over AFP.

You must be talking about old-fashioned 100BASE-T. Over Gigabit, I usually see about 40 MB/s, and I suspect that the limiting factor there might be the hard drive in our server. (We don't have a RAID attached, just an internal disk for our non-critical day-to-day work.)

Re:Jabber

[Anonymous Coward]

Mac OS X is viable anywhere Linux or BSD would be viable, it's just a matter of the ease of use factor being worth the extra investment (paying the Apple Premium).

Re:Jabber

[CatOne]

An OS X Server (Xserve), is appropriate most anyplace a Linux server is appropriate. The two are very similar -- they run the same open source compoenents, they're both UNIX-y, etc.

So they're both excellent replacements for Windows servers when you're tired of playing CALs. A Mac server is easier for a "novice" to set up and maintain, as the GUI configuration support is superior. It's also a lot easier to integrate Macs with Windows environments than it is with Linux -- OpenDirectory is very easy to integrate with Active Directory via kerberos (3 clicks and you're done, and you can have centralized directory services cross-platform)... with Linux you can install OpenLDAP but good luck getting it integrated with Kerberos in less than a month.

Cost is fairly similar -- out the door the Mac is slightly more, but if you use "Enterprise" Linux like Red Hat Enterprise Linux, then the costs are fairly similar (as the Xserve includes the software license).

So a better question is "where isn't it appropriate?" And the answer to this is usually "when the company is locked into an Exchange server and doesn't want to move off."

Re:Jabber

[NeedleSurfer]

Media, I'm surprised no one mentionned it, Apple has the biggest share of the media market; audio, video, graphics. If you look closely you'll notice that pros rarely use the same stuff as consumers, same goes in computing. As a professionnal audio tech I wouldn't work with a winbox, even though it does audio, every time I did I regreted it, I will work with a Mac. I almost never see studios geared with PC except for techno kids basements and the secretary desk, mac are as common in media as PCs are with consummers.

Licensing

[Fubar]

(the number of clients referring only to simultaneous file sharing clients)

To further refine this explanation, the licensing is based on the number of AFP (Apple's filesharing protocol) connections. Unlimited web, ftp, and in previous versions unlimited windows SMB connections. I haven't noticed if this changes with 10.4.

Re:Licensing

[BiggerIsBetter]

So the only limits are on AFP? One question then - does netatalk work with OS-X server?

Re:Licensing

[toph42]

Are you sure that Samba is unlimited? This document from Apple's website seems to say that the 10-Client license limits the Windows Sharing (Apple's name for Samba):

Configuring Windows Services Access Settings

You use the Access pane to allow guest access and set the maximum client connections.

To configure Windows services Access settings:

In Server Settings, click the File & Print tab.
Click Windows and choose Configure Windows Services.
Click the Access tab.
Select "Allow Guest access" only if you want to allow people who are not registered users to use Windows file sharing.

This is a convenient way to provide occasional users with access to files and other items for which the appropriate privileges have been set.

For better security, do not select this option. Below "Maximum client connections," choose Unlimited if you do not want to limit the number of users who can be connected to your server at one time. If you want to limit the number of simultaneous users, click the button below Unlimited and enter the number of connections.

The maximum number of simultaneous users is limited by the type of license you have. For example, if you have a 10-user license, then a maximum of 10 users can connect at one time.

Limiting the number of connections can free resources to be used by other services and applications.

I am very interested in this, because I'm looking at setting up a Mac OS X Server as a Windows PDC, and I don't care about serving AFP, but if I can only have ten simultaneous SMB connections, it won't fly. Are you sure that SMB connections are unrestricted, and more importantly, do you have some kind of documentation that can back it up? I've got a muddy response, calling Apple and two Apple Retail Stores, and getting three different answers.

Re:Licensing

[CatOne]

Samba is also limited in the 10-client version. You need the unlimited version for > 10 connections.

I promise I'm right on this ;-)

Blogs

[ModernGeek]

Is it just me or are we getting too deep into the whole blog thing? It's just like a personal site with news, what's the big deal with it anywhoo? I mean google even has a blog now. And why is it people want things already written for them, like PHPnuke, why can't people just make things on their own from scratch (like I do, see my site), and try to make somthing unique and stand out from everyone else. It seems everyone is just getting more and more uniform, using templates and cookie cutters nowdays.

Re:Blogs

[kevcol]

Dude- you gotta check out my blog on that very subject!

Re:Blogs

[Anonymous Coward]

you gotta check out my blog on that very subject!

Oh, it was a great read! But your entries describing your recent trips to the bathroom left much to be desired...

Re:Blogs

[Anonymous Coward]

Well, your site is very impressive, especially the the ranting; I believe my favorite quote is something along the lines of you knowing everything about everyone within five minutes of meeting them.

I mention this as your perspective is the answer to your own question. I take it you are a nerd in high school and see yourself as existing on the fringe of whatever social structure exists at your school and your words indicate you have just made the fundamental realization that the fringe is not a bad place to be as it is where creativity often occurs (and you have also embraced the other half of that change in thinking the fringe is somehow a more powerful position than the mainstream; over time you will realize the validitity-- and necessity-- of both).

I say your perspective is the answer to your question because not everyone wants to make a site that is unique and stands out in terms of form. Many people want something easy to create that stands out in terms of content. Many technically inclined people who struggled endlessly to create unique and interesting websites simply because they had nothing to say. When they finally found something to say, they were more interested in getting their message out there in any form and lost the need for it to look unique and interesting.

The blog represents a tremendous step forward in publishing and pop-culture; a large step for humanity in some sense...

Re:Blogs

[hondo77]

You can think of it as just a diary. Another way to think of it is as a content management system. With the site I'm playing with at the moment (see my homepage link if interested), I'm not using it as a diary at all. I'm using Blosxom and, with plugins provided and created on my own, I'm pretty much using it as a publishing system. I write articles, schedule their publishing date, and pretend people read them :-).

Why do people want something already made for them? Why reinvent the wheel. A good engineer is a lazy engineer. Best to get up and running quickly. Lots of reasons, I should think. For me, the search for the right software took longer than getting the site ready once I found it. Blosxom provides enough easy-to-use customizability that the site looks the way I want it to look.

Blog software is just a tool and a starting point. Take it wherever your imagination lets you.

Re:Blogs

[gl4ss]

there's shitloads of blogs that have been started just because yet another guy wanted to just code his own blog, but later the guy realised he doesn't even want to blog or have anything worth blogging about else than the blog software, which let's face it, isn't that intresting even to other coders.

with a blog, like with any site worth visiting, the content matters more than the presentation!(as long as the presentation doesn't hide the content of course), the engine that actually pushes out the presentation(generates the html) matters even less to the reader.

why do you suppose that it would be good for people who don't know to code 'roll out their own blog'? why the hell not leverage on other peoples work when it is possible? or you only read blogs about making blogs which is the stupidest blogs out there with empty content like "I'm not sure what to write here now, but it sure is cool, peehoopeee aaall the way baby, I ruule, I wrote my own blog engine".

using the same tools other people use makes some things easier anyways, like migrating to another software later or being able to use tools other people wrote for the software, like j2me posting apps & etc...

Re:Blogs

[Boss Sauce]

While the "check out my cool life" blogs get most of the press, the reality is that there are lots and lots of sites that use blog-type software to control publication. Slashdot, for example, is just a blog with a thick layer of automated security tacked onto its "comment" features.

As a method for handling ANY site which needs regular updating, blogs can't be beat.

Of course, make sure to check out manyforms, or do a lucky Google search for it...:o

Re:Blogs

[thenerd]

why can't people just make things on their own from scratch (like I do, see my site), and try to make somthing unique and stand out from everyone else.

It's because people are more interested in using what they see as a new medium to express ideas. They are not interested in the implementation. Why would they write their own when something perfectly good exists that they can use now?

Re:Blogs

[raddan]

Subscribe to Secunia and you'll see why custom apps, though cool, usually aren't a good idea in a production system. I'm not discouraging you from whipping up your own web app, but designing these things while keeping factors like security, clean code, stability, etc. is a difficult thing to do alone.

Also, don't forget that the three principal virtues of a programmer are Laziness, Impatience, and Hubris.

Re:Blogs

[jaghatarjankare]

why can't people just make things on their own from scratch (like I do, see my site)

Because you're smart and have brains and aren't afraid to apply yourself and you don't turn up an arrogant nose at technology or anything new.

The g/f recently contracted with an AP reporter who wanted a web site and a blog. What for? I asked? What for? she asked. I just want one, he said. Why can't he just put some simple HTML up? I asked. Why can't you, she asked. I want it all done for me so I don't have to bother with it, he answered.

She dropped the contract.

Such are people - the other kind.

Re:Blogs

[Anonymous Coward]

*Ahem* you're soaking in it.

Re:Blogs

[Anonymous Coward]

Slashdot, for example, is just a blog with ...

I think it's the other way around. They still are hobby websites, diaries, forums, et cetera, but suddenly everything is fashionably called a blog now. "Blog" somehow covers everything. You can count me out of your trend-setter crowd.

While you're at it, why not take a step forward and call all the stuff "internet hypertext documents" to cover even more ground with a more vague term, maybe abbreviate it to "ndocs" or something...

(Or maybe I'm just having a bad hair day.)

Re:Blogs

[Anonymous Coward]

Ah, you mean "Slashdot is a blog too", right?

Puh-leeze, let's not start calling everything under the sun "a blog". Or I'll start calling you mom "a blog". How'd you like that? Huh? Huh?

Seriously now, there was a distinct idea to a "web log", when it was just a more fashionable word choice for "online diary". Can we keep it that way, please? Let's not try to change everything just for the sake of novelty. Let's fix things that are broken first.

(I know language changes naturally, but only when it needs to. This sudden "all is blog" change is artificial. It seems to be the blog people wanting to call everything a blog. How's that for a conspiracy theory? Or maybe it's the tinfoil hat people scheming again, gotta stay vigilant now...)

Re:Blogs

[Anonymous Coward]

I seem to recall we used to call those "Content Management Systems" When did the comittee change that to "Blog"?

Re:Blogs

[jivemonkey]

I find it quite interesting how you have a news section that you want to be just like Slashdot. From your post:

"and try to make somthing unique and stand out from everyone else" -ModernGeek

Re:Blogs

[Anonymous Coward]

Does your site have an RSS feed? A real blog does...it's an xml format that lets people use aggregator software and subscribe to your blog. Then, instead of manually going to check it every day, they just open their aggregator and see the new posts in all the blogs they've subscribed to, in one window.

Some blogs have extra features, like Trackbacks...at the bottom of each blogpost, there's a collection of links to other blogposts that linked to this one.

Ie., there's a whole set of interesting technical stuff here, that goes far beyond just a bunch of people with personal websites. If you think that's all it is, you're about four years behind the times.

Re:Blogs

[sageman]

Wow, that site is hilarious, by the way.

As far as cutting corners, using PHPnuke, whatever, its because the people that can write php and everything shouldn't be wasting their time making another website; they should be working on a project, building something, coding something, contributing to an open source effort, whatever.

That being said, doesn't hurt to make a website from scratch (or a few) to learn the underlying concepts and then apply them to more important tasks.

Whatever, don't listen to me anywho, this is all bull, hehe.

Namig Convention

[someguy456]

Jaguar, Panther, Tiger, etc

How many felines are left? Even including "cat" and others, they are bound to run out, aren't they?

Maybe for OS 11 (OS X1?) they will start doing canines or something... Wolf, Coyote, Bear?

Re:Namig Convention

[Exiler]

They should use monkeys, then the name supply would be nearly infinate. Gibbon, Lemur, Ape, Bush...

Re:Namig Convention

[Wyatt Earp]

They used Puma and Cheetah already. For 10.1 and 10.0.4, I think.

So we have, Lynx, Caracal, Serval, Ocelot, Leopard, Lion, Bobcat left from a quick look here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Felidae

Re:Namig Convention

[HuguesT]

There are still quite a few left

Cat
Ocelot
Bobcat
Lynx
Puma
Cougar
Leopard
Lion

That ought to do for a few more years.

Re:Namig Convention

[kevcol]

So we have, Lynx, Caracal, Serval, Ocelot..

How do you titillate an ocelot?

You oscillate it's tit alot!

Re:Namig Convention

[Neil Blender]

Jaguar, Panther, Tiger, etc

How many felines are left? Even including "cat" and others, they are bound to run out, aren't they?

Maybe for OS 11 (OS X1?) they will start doing canines or something... Wolf, Coyote, Bear?


They'll probably just pick up a copy of O'Reilly's "Animal Naming Conventions".

Re:Namig Convention

[jest3r]

Garfield comes to mind ... or Sylvester ...

Re:Namig Convention

[swordboy]

I don't know about you but, I *can't* wait for tabby!

Re:Namig Convention

[homer_ca]

That and finding feline names that aren't already trademarked: Cougar, Puma, Cheetah, and Lynx are all taken, but if nobody complained about Jaguar, then maybe another automotive name like Cougar won't matter either. There's still Leopard, Ocelot and Lion.

Re:Namig Convention

[stuktongue]

Okay, I'll bite... where in the world did you find that? Or is it possible you made it up???

Re:Namig Convention

[swordboy]

Go Banana!

Re:Namig Convention

[Anonymous Coward]

Scratch Puma, that was 10.1. I'm kind of partial to thundercat.

Re:Namig Convention

[cobe98]

Technically an ape is not a monkey with the most recognisable different being the size, lack of a tail and intelligence. The great apes include gorillas, orangutans, chimps. Bush would not qualify under this definition.

Re:Namig Convention

[Trillan]

How about using birds?

Duck, duck, duck... goose!

Re:Namig Convention

[Anonymous Coward]

I hate upgrading.
I'll wait for the Ginger Tom release or maybe Tiddles.

Re:Namig Convention

[cpt kangarooski]

The great apes include gorillas, orangutans, chimps. Bush would not qualify under this definition.

Well, we all know Bush isn't great. ;)

Re:Namig Convention

[Jeremy Erwin]

They'll probably just pick up a copy of O'Reilly's "Animal Naming Conventions".
That's an excellent idea. After, all, O'Reilly really knows its cats.

Building Cocoa Applications has a Mastiff
Cocoa IAN has a Irish Setter.
Inside .Mac has Eskimo Huskies
Learning Carbon has bloodhounds
Unix for MacOSX Panther has an Alaskan Malamute.
MacOSX for Unix Geeks has a hyena.
and MacOSX Unwired has a ...dog collar.

Hey wait a a minute!

Re:Namig Convention

[crossconnects]

trademarks only apply to the industry to which it applies. Automotive trademarks don't apply to computers.

Re:Namig Convention

[Kardnal]

There are still quite a few left:

...
Lynx
Puma
Cougar
....

Ummmm, they've already used that one. It was 10.1

Re:Namig Convention

[psoriac]

Jaguar, Panther, Tiger, etc

How many felines are left? Even including "cat" and others, they are bound to run out, aren't they?

Personally, I'm waiting for the Ocelot release before I upgrade again.

Re:Namig Convention

[kevcol]

Naw, it's an old joke played for a cheap laugh.

Re:Namig Convention

[Anonymous Coward]

Mac OS Cat? It'd be hilarious if Apple named an os "Cat"

Re:Namig Convention

[bewbs]

I for one can't wait for OS X Pussy. Optimized for pr0n!

Re:Namig Convention

[Anonymous Coward]

How many felines are left? Even including "cat" and others, they are bound to run out, aren't they?

Yes, there's a finite number of words that mean something like "cat", so eventually they will run out. However it may be a while:

Calico, Angora, Abyssinian, Manx, Cougar, Puma, Ocelot, Leopard, Lynx, Lion, Cheetah, and Sabertooth.

And then when they start running low they will have to start saying dumb things like, "The next release of OS X -- codenamed Kitty -- will feature a new user interface licensed from Sanrio." Or, "The upcoming release of OS X is still in development and is rumored to be codenamed Pussy. We are not even going to comment."

Re:Namig Convention

[foidulus]

Cat
I dunno...to me the name "cat" just isn't awe inspiring. I mean, could you seriously take an OS seriously if it's codename was "cat"?
Yes, and speed up your OS X experience with Meow-Mix software!

Re:Namig Convention

[Anonymous Coward]

You forgot about the ass monkey!

Re:Namig Convention

[javiercero]

There are a ton of felines left:

Lynx/bobcat, Mountain Lion, Lion, Cheetah, Leopard, Puma, Serval, etc...

Re:Namig Convention

[bonaldi]

well, Jaguar was never sold as Jaguar in the UK (it had the print on the box, but in all branding it was Mac OS X 10.2) because of a complaint from Jaguar cars.

Re:Namig Convention

[Mudcathi]

Maybe for OS 11 (OS X1?) they will start doing canines or something... Wolf, Coyote, Bear?

You're very close to following the cubscout series: Cub, Wolf, Bear, Webelos :)

Re:Namig Convention

[momerath2003]

I cannot believe you left off Steve "Monkey Boy" Ballmer!

Re:Namig Convention

[Maserati]

They aren't already ?

Perhaps you missed this ad they aired last year.

(can't link the popups with the movies, it's the "Computer" clip, warning Real Player)

Re:Namig Convention

[hunterx11]

Yeah, but Apple Corps did sue Apple when they went into the music market :)

Re:Namig Convention

[Shinglor]

Maybe for OS 11 (OS X1?)...

Er, that would be OS XI, it's a Roman numeral.

Re:Namig Convention

[_generica]

Apple Lynx ?

http://www.atarilynx.com/

a bit too close for comfort

Re:Namig Convention

[javax]

How many felines are left? Even including "cat" and others, they are bound to run out, aren't they?

At least one rather famous Apple employee likes the name fuzzy hairball - so there are some more (Cougar, Lynx).


Maybe for OS 11 (OS X1?) they will start doing canines or something... Wolf, Coyote, Bear?

The name for the next OpenDarwin release actually is Coyote. So stay tuned for more lupine names here.

Re:Namig Convention

[Anonymous Coward]

Gods alone know how many people would have climbed into their Powermac in the morning to drive to work if the Jaguar company hadn't done their thinking for them.
(speaking as a UK citizen, an imminent G5 owner, and an indifferent viewer of Jaguar cars)

Re:Namig Convention

[redragon]

Or...

Duck, duck, duck... grey duck!

If you are from Minnesotta.

Re:Namig Convention

[ocelotbob]

You got to rub a bit lower to really titillate an ocelot, baby ;3

*hides*

Re:Namig Convention

[Anonymous Coward]

The Lynx and Bobcat are 2 seperate spiecies. The mountain lion, puma, cougar are all different names for the same cat.

There are plenty of cats left. But after leopard and lion, I think they will be hard pressed for short, to the point names. And I think they will have used up all the big - medium cats.

Since all the major releases have been point updates, they could go through all the different speices of Cheetah(2) and Tiger(7 I think including the extinct ones).

Also, panther is not a spieces of cat. Any black jaguar or leopard can be refered to as a "panther". Indeed, I believe and large all black cat is a panther.

Re:Namig Convention

[Naepustus]

Oh, and don't forget the meercat! My favorite. Mmm... tasty.

Re:Namig Convention

[garethwi]

Don't forget Tiddles.

Re:Namig Convention

[thesuperbus]

They've reserved "Cougar" for when OS X turns 30!

Re:Namig Convention

[Paulrothrock]

I finally grokked the naming convention yesterday when Steve was talking about copying.

Copycats. Get it? They're all cats, and they get copied. (Or copy other things, in a couple cases. See? It's a double entendre. Or something.

Re:Namig Convention

[EvilTwinSkippy]

OS 11 -> Ocean's 11.

That's it, the releases will be named after Las Vegas Casinos!

Re:Namig Convention

[Anonymous Coward]

I think X stands forever. There won't be Mac OS XI unless Unix becomes Unixi, XWindow becomes XIWindow, linux becomes linuxi, XTerm becomes XITerm, etc..

X signifies the Unix-ness of OS 10.

Re:Namig Convention

[LanMan04]

A bear is ursine, not canine! =)

Re:Namig Convention

[CyberdogOSX]

well, i heard they were worried about the same thing that MS was worried about with the numbering scheme(95, 98, etc.), Jaguar now seems dated.

So from now on OS X will just be referred to as simply "Pussy", iLife will become iPussy.

Quick to follow suit, MS will begin referring to Windows versions as "Dildo".

Re:Namig Convention

[Twirlip of the Mists]

No, it would be OS X 11.0. The name is OS X, or Mac OS X. It's pronounced "Oh Ess Ten" or "Mac Oh Ess Ten."

The version number is separate.

If and when they get to the point where it's time to go up a whole number, it'll be Mac OS X 11.0.

I say "if" because it's not a sure thing. SGI has their UNIX operating system, IRIX. They ship a new feature release every quarter, which is basically like the difference between 10.2 and 10.3 only less so. The version number of IRIX is 6.5.x, where the x is the number of the feature release. They're up to 6.5.22 or so now with no plans to ever produce another major release of IRIX.

Nothing's stopping Apple from doing the same thing: 10.1, 10.2, 10.3, 10.4, 10.5... 10.9, 10.10, 10.11... 10.20, 10.21, 10.22. Whatever.

Re:Namig Convention

[NeedleSurfer]

yep and the slower the cat the faster the system, macosX blind kitten should rock!

Re:Namig Convention

[Anonymous Coward]

Why would you roll an ocelot tit when you can roll your own, like I do?

NOT A DUPLICATE

[Anonymous Coward]

The previous post had some threads about this but not primarily about 10.4 Server. Very cool things in there.

Darn I just

[JohnnyGTO]

got my mother-in-law to upgrade her Macs to Panther last week!

Macs rock when someone else is paying the bill :-)

Re:Darn I just

[jest3r]

Yes it seems a little premature to start previewing Tiger when many Mac users, myself included, only recently upgraded to Panther.

In fact people seem to have taken to the Panther name, and the features that Panther has to offer over its predecessors. I am not exactly sure why Apple would start the phase out process after only a little more than a year with Panther ...

Re:Darn I just

[Anonymous Coward]

Because, in fact, people will take to the tiger name, and the features that tiger has to offer over it's predecessors.

Re:Darn I just

[jellomizer]

Well I am still calling my Panther version Jaguar Because Panther came out a year after Jaguar. And I think Jaguar is a cooler name.

Re:Darn I just

[JabberWokky]

Your mother in law runs OSX servers? Cool.

--
Evan

Re:Darn I just

[Anonymous Coward]

ahh .. I totally forgot about Jagwire ... I think I leapfrogged over Jaguar.

Tiger is too mainstream ... they should stick with species a little more endangered.

Re:Darn I just

[Chucker23N]

Remember that this is a developer conference. Apple wants developers to pick up the new APIs early. That's why they've been given lots of SDKs - for .mac sync'ing, for CoreImage, for CoreVideo, for Dashboard, for Spotlight plug-ins, ...

Not the same.

[Apiakun]

Did you catch the first few words of the blurb? "Remaining unmentioned".

As much as I'd love to jump on the "dupe" bandwagon, the previous slashdot article did not mention these Tiger 'server' updates (comments notwithstanding.)

Thanks for the update.

Re:Naming Convention

[tenton]

Maybe for OS 11 (OS X1?) they will start doing canines or something... Wolf, Coyote, Bear?

Since when was a bear a canine? ^_^

Re:Naming Convention

[chochos]

Lion, bobcat, puma, cougar, cheetah, lynx, ocelot... Canines could be more limited. I don't think they'll want to name one "dog" (like they haven't named one just "cat") but Wolf, Coyote, Fox, etc sound nice (although dingo and hyena don't sound so good for OS names). And with canines, they could use dog breeds. Akita, Husky, Malamut, German Shepherd, Labrador, Retriever, Terrier, Hound, Spaniel, etc etc etc

radmind

[planckscale]

You'd think it would incorporate cloning and app-pushing over the network in conjunction with it's cached updates. Looks like it's still RadMind for now. Sounds like a fun distro, and I can't wait to get my hands on it.

Re:radmind

[Anonymous Coward]

I'm about to set up a Panther Server for a client using a lot of the more nifty stuff it offers, and part of that will be using NetBoot and NetRestore for turnkey machine rollouts and rebuilds (network home directories make the nuke-and-rebuild possible).

I agree with you, though-- while what's already present in Panther is great, I'd like to see more improvements to the deployment-via-network features.

Re:radmind

[Anonymous Coward]

These things are already included. See http://www.apple.com/support/downloads/macosxserve radmintools_readme.html

Re:radmind

[Anonymous Coward]

OSXS isn't a "distro" you damn linux tool.

Important part of any Windows migration

[LittleLebowskiUrbanA]

Can I migrate Exchange onto OSX Server? oh please god, please Mr Jobs

There's a company that claims to be able to migrate Exchange to Linux or an OS X server in few easy clicks. However they don't seem to want my business since they won't respond on their own forums and emails to every address of theirs I could find remain unanswered after a month.

Re:Important part of any Windows migration

[outZider]

CommuniGate Pro.

Re:Important part of any Windows migration

[SmittyTheBold]

CommuniGate is cool, but I'm not sure it's good enough for use outside workgroups and relatively small businesses.

Anecdote follows:
We had it set up to auth against LDAP for all users, but (IIRC) the admin password was defined within the app. For some reason, this caused the whole program to crash when presented with an invalid admin password. Didn't get the admin password correct on the first try? Well, your mail's down. (Now *that*'s security!) Since it's really a monolithic app, that means ingoing mail, outgoing mail, and hosted web sites are all broken until you get the server restarted. This looks like a job for...The Watchdog Process!

Re:Important part of any Windows migration

[SlamMan]

Well, they do have their clustering setup for larger systems, but I'd just like to say over a couple years of running Communigate, we haven't had that happen.

I see your antidote, and raise it one cluster reference.

Re:Important part of any Windows migration

[ChaosMt]

Ya know, in the 30 seconds I took to follow the above link, I didn't see any mention of exchange or mapi any where obvious. And if you can replace exchange, that's something to brag about.

Re:Important part of any Windows migration

[outZider]

Agreed. There are quite a few things that tick me off about CommuniGate, but it has handled things SO well in the past, on average, that I can't help but plug it. It works on many platforms, handles thousands of domains with many accounts without hiccuping, and offers clustering support as your mail needs change.

Also, you probably shouldn't be hosting web sites off of CommuniGate, IMHO. It's a neat feature, handy for small workgroups, but once you move up -- ditch the web site functionality. :)

Re:Important part of any Windows migration

[outZider]

It is there, it's an addon pack to the CommuniGate server. Completely replaces all Calendar, Contact, etc functions of Exchange, and the clients see it as an Exchange server.

Re:Important part of any Windows migration

[SmittyTheBold]

That's what we were using it for.

We were a web hosting operation (amongst other things) but the convenience of using CG for little internal sites was nice, and it allowed us to keep "personal" sites completely away from our production web servers. Of course, it kept them right on top of our e-mail servers, so...

Re:Important part of any Windows migration

[SmittyTheBold]

But, did you try it? It's a very specific path to destruction, that bug.

Re:Dupe...

[JabberWokky]

Nope. Not a duplicate, nor is this going to cram anything onto your screen.

This is their *server* operating system, and generally runs quite nicely without a screen.

--
Evan

Active Directory

[toupsie]

Tiger Server can act as a Primary Domain Controller for a Windows network, and the tool will migrate user and group account from an existing Windows PDC into Open Directory 2 and Samba 3.

Does the author mean a NT4 style PDC or an Active Directory Domain Controller? My guess is NT4 PDC. However, if it is a Windows 2003 Native Mode compatible Domain Controller/Global Catalog, WOW! If it is NT4 PDC, yawn. Not too many folks are running those in the Enterprise, however, I do see the benefit of creating a migration path from Windows to Mac for old, small NT4 networks.

Re:Active Directory

[iantri]

Probably means as an Active Directory domain controller.

Samba 3 IS capable of doing it, but it is a massive pain in the ass and is rather complicated.

If anyone can make it quick and easy, it's Apple...

Re:Active Directory

[0racle]

Last time I saw it, v3.0.0, Samba was capable of being an AD member server, not a Domain controller, and I don't see on their site that that has changed.

Re:Active Directory

[tyhockett]

It is indeed an Active Directory domain controller. This is a feature of Panther Server, actually. Panther Server can act as a Primary Domain Controller for AD, or an AD member server. It cannot act as a secondary replication partner.

Re:Active Directory

[Anonymous Coward]

Panther server has a NT style PDC that is easy to access with the GUI server tools. From looking at the preview pages on the web this appears to be more of the same.

Re:Active Directory

[skt]

No, samba / Mac OS X can integrate with an existing active directory infrastructure (core windows machines), but it can not create an active directory infrastructure.

Re:Active Directory

[Johnny Mnemonic]

I'm not sure of the distinction--I'm a Mac guy, not allowed to admin Windows Servers--but you might find answers in the pages and docs on Windows services in Apple's pages on Panther Server, or on a discussion of setting up the Windows Services in X Server 10.2-3.

Re:Active Directory

[jimmyharris]

I'd like to see a link to information on this - last I read, Samba (and Panther) could be PDCs which offered more than NT4 PDCs but couldn't offer full AD functionality.

Re:Active Directory

[pudge]

I wish I knew enough about Windows to really answer your question well, but the Apple rep I talked to was talking about non-Active Directory stuff, primarily, saying that lots of companies have legacy networking and will need to upgrade to something -- Active Directory or otherwise -- and that Tiger Server will offer another choice.

Re:Active Directory

[pudge]

Yes, it can ACT as a an AD PDC, but the new Tiger migration tool migrates from older PDCs. Not sure if it also migrates from AD PDCs.

Re:Active Directory

[iantri]

Oops. You're right. Appearantly, the Samba team hasn't quite figured exactly how the Domain controller works, yet. It's supposedly very complicated.

Re:Active Directory

[Anonymous Coward]

Hi. Im writing ORA's Mac OS X Server book. This is an NT style PDC. Not AD. Sorry.

Areas I hope are improved

[tbo]

Documentation. OS X Server 10.3 ("Panther Server") is nice, but there are just too many areas that are poorly documented. My setup time would have been a quarter what it was if they had really excellent documentation. It's surprising, because Apple's docs on the consumer side are quite good. A lot of Apple's market is relatively inexperienced admins in SOHO or educational settings, and more HOWTO-type documentation would be wonderful.

VPN setup. This one needs some serious help. I (and a lot of other people on Apple's OS X Server Discussion Board) have had a great deal of difficulty getting PPTP working in Panther Server. I also managed to stump Apple's Premium support with a problem with L2TP. Still waiting to hear back, more than a week later.

Firewall setup. The Panther Server GUI interface for setting up firewalls is somewhat broken. Server Admin times out on trying to load mildly complicated rule-sets (say, a group of twelve IP ranges with 15 ports open). The default configuration doesn't make use of ipfw's stateful capabilities, and doesn't block UDP packets. They could really have a better interface and a better default ruleset, or at least an option to set up some stateful rules via the GUI. The setup they have for XML editing of the GUI's port list is cool, though, as is the ipfw.conf setup.

Windows Services / SAMBA. SAMBA still has some bugs and issues which make it annoying to use as a replacement for a Windows-based PDC. Apple should help out the open source community here. In particular, find a good solution to the problem where visible .INI files show up in weird places in a user's roaming profile--having one of these suckers pop up upon login every time a user logs in is annoying. (This happens because SAMBA does not store the "Invisible System File" windows file attribute that would keep these files from being visible. There's a work-around but it's ugly and only partially effective). Also, more GUI-based control of security for Windows file sharing would be good--I don't want to have to dig into the bowels of samba just to learn how to disable LANMAN passwords.

Open Directory. Fix the bugs in Open Directory or Workgroup Manager that prevent entry of "City" (and certain other attributes) in user LDAP records. Set up a better means of storing contact information in the LDAP directory, and document how to configure Mac OS X clients to access it via Address Book.

Backup Solution. There are lots of third-party backup solutions out there for backing up an OS X Server, but none I completely trust to do a bare-metal restore and give me a bootable system. Carbon Copy Cloner? Had issues with it when backing up an iBook via Firewire, so I don't trust it. Rsync? Doesn't handle resource forks. RsyncX? Slower than rsync (too slow for network backup). This would probably be pretty simple for Apple to implement and integrate into Server Admin.

All in all, Panther Server is pretty good, and Tiger Server looks even better. I just hope Apple fixes these things so others are spared the trouble I went through.

Re:Areas I hope are improved

[imac.usr]

Carbon Copy Cloner? Had issues with it when backing up an iBook via Firewire, so I don't trust it.

I've seen the same thing with CCC and FireWire drives, where eventually the process times out and you have to force-quit CCC and start over. I have found that there is a workaround of sorts that generally prevents this from happening:

• start the clone operation as normal
• open the Terminal
• cd to the root directory of the target drive for the cloning operation (i.e.

  /Volumes/whatever

  )
• do an ls -l of the directory every 4-5 minutes or so

This usually works on my drives. My theory is that something in either CCC or Apple's FireWire implementation is screwy and it causes ditto (the unix tool that forms the basis of CCC) to flip out.

Re:Areas I hope are improved

[Otter]

If that's a major part of your job, it sounds like you're a particularly good candidate to be replaced with a very small shell script.

Just kidding, just kidding...!

Re:Areas I hope are improved

[ptudor]

...but none I completely trust to do a bare-metal restore and give me a bootable system.

The 60G Toshiba failed in my 12" PB last week, a perfect test of my SuperDuper based backups. I booted off the external backup with no problem once my PB was returned and just backed up, in the other direction. Two hours and a reboot later, it's like nothing happened.

I've been pleased with SuperDuper since the start, and now that it's passed a big test I'm even more so.

Just mentioning because it wasn't in your list...

Re:Areas I hope are improved

[Anonymous Coward]

Good lord. Just run ditto -rsrc by hand or even better yet take a look at man asr for nice instructions on how to build stretchable block copy restore images.

I stopped using CCC a while back due to the flakiness that it started to exhibit.

Re:Areas I hope are improved

[imac.usr]

I stopped using CCC a while back due to the flakiness that it started to exhibit.

I actually am working on a quick-and-dirty asr/ditto-based tool for backing up a couple of our work machines, for essentially the same reason. I'm hoping I can get it to the point where I can get machines to automatically back themselves up to a sparse image on a server during off-peak hours.

I did use the handy instructions from asr's man page to set up an out-of-the-box fresh install of 10.3.4 with all the security updates for a machine so I can sell it. Very handy, although not quite the same as sysprepping a Windows machine.

Re:Areas I hope are improved

[Johnny Mnemonic]

I've seen the same thing with CCC and FireWire drives, where eventually the process times out and you have to force-quit CCC and start over.

The issue is with the FW drive--the firmware on some works better thatn the firmware on others. For some reason.

Thread for details

Re:Areas I hope are improved

[Durandal64]

Apple has added Darwin-level support for resource forks in Tiger, and have recompiled their Unix tools (including cp, mv, et cetera) to properly handle resource forks. So rsync will work properly with resource forks now.

Re:Areas I hope are improved

[Maserati]

I used to use CC Cloner a lot. That's excellent advice, but I hope you've written a script to do those "ls -l"s. I'm using LaCie drives mostly. We've lately switched to NetRestore for, well, restores; I still use CCC for backups. CCC is in fact vulnerable to Firewire issues, and versions prior to 2.30 had some lack of stability. 2.30 on Panther is pretty stable.

The BIG problem with CCC is the condition in which it leaves the directory structure. I made it a policy to run DiskWarrior on every system I restored. I spot-check when I'm using NetRestore (a very handy program locally or networked), but I haven't seen anything serious with NR but I'll keep looking. There's nothing worse than deploying a system with damage, already on it, that you could have prevented.

That reminds me. There is no Earthly reason for not emptying the caches when you image. It screws things up when you deploy on dissimilar hardware; nothing else is as troublesome moving an image across generations of hardware (G4/G5 for example). There's No Cachet in a Cache.

Re:Areas I hope are improved

[Anonymous Coward]

Backup Solution.... Rsync? Doesn't handle resource forks.

well one of the new features in Tiger is the support of resource fork copying with standard unix tools, (cp, etc.) so hopefully this will help backup vendors.

Re:Areas I hope are improved

[bigHairyDog]

cd to the root directory of the target drive for the cloning operation (i.e.
/Volumes/whatever )
do an ls -l of the directory every 4-5 minutes or so

or, if you don't like, RSI, have your clone script do a
while true; do ls -l /Volumes/whatever; sleep 200; done;
replacing `true` with come condition that ends when the clone is done

Re:Areas I hope are improved

[Anonymous Coward]

man asr

Theres an asr manpage? It should clearly document something else entirely.

Re:Areas I hope are improved

[Johnny Mnemonic]

Do you have a link for that? That's pretty interesting, and will solve quite a few problems--no more having to install the Dev Tools, just to get CpMac, just to copy things in the terminal and not lose the rsrc forks.

Re:Areas I hope are improved

[science_gone_bad]

Funny, that's EXACTLY what CCC is.....a small shell script wrapped in a Applescript controlled window.

Small, sweet and rewritable if needed.

Re:Areas I hope are improved

[Durandal64]

Check out Apple's Tiger Preview page, specifically the new Unix features section.

Re:Areas I hope are improved

[pudge]

VPN and Firewall setup are both included in the single-click configuration.

A robust backup solution would be a great addition. Backup.app is a nice start, but needs a ton of work (it's very slow, not robust, needs more selection options and filters), and Server could make it much simpler for Backup.app to work with.

Re:Areas I hope are improved

[Twirlip of the Mists]

There are lots of third-party backup solutions out there for backing up an OS X Server, but none I completely trust to do a bare-metal restore and give me a bootable system.

Use Apple Software Restore. It's what Apple uses in-house. It's available on both OS X client and server, and it comes in both GUI and command-line flavors.

Where`s the `keynote` (quicktime format!)?

[danalien]

IIRC, there was a 'image & link' here to the 2004 WWDC. but now, it`s gone missing (it appears, so, anyway). anyone know what happened to it? (cause I don't)

Re:Where`s the `keynote` (quicktime format!)?

[Colol]

Apple had no plans to broadcast the keynote this year, so my guess would be it was the same WWDC 2004 link and image everywhere else: it just dumped you here at the ADC site.

Nothing interesting there unless you plan on attending, really.

Re:Where`s the `keynote` (quicktime format!)?

[jimbolaya]

To get the videos from WWDC, you have to be a paying member of the Apple Developer Connection

Re:Where`s the `keynote` (quicktime format!)?

[danalien]

That's, _MEGA_ Outragous! of them, (have you seen the prices?! /* I just checked */).

if they have 'money' problems that they can't continue to do the 'freebe'-keynote thing, I could consive to pay for the 'transport' (at the same amount/level, like 'that comdex'-thing, zdnet charges one for (on a per 'feed' price) ....) ... but at the prices I've *just* seen in the ADC-members page, *FUCK THAT*...all I wanted is to tune into the keynote, instead of watching <something else>... but I guess I'll be watching <something else> then....

/* here's hoping they'll come to their senses, and post-post it under their: Apple Events. */

Re:Where`s the `keynote` (quicktime format!)?

[danalien]

and they did! *that was fast!* =)

I guess their new 'RSS'-thing really works well, and decide to do something about my *flame* :-) ... /* doubt it, but one can wish that would be true =) ... no, I think they where going to do the 'freebe', just not in real time ... */ follow the white rabbit, alice =)

Re:Where`s the `keynote` (quicktime format!)?

[jimbolaya]

ahh...i guess it's just the sessions that you have to pay for. Nice work!

Microsoft had a project Tiger once...

[Anonymous Coward]

...it was in the '93-'94 timeframe. It was supposed to be a video server; i.e., multiply specified video streams could be served up to various clients.

Hmmm. I haven't heard of anything about it since then.

Re:Microsoft had a project Tiger once...

[TheNetAvenger]

...it was in the '93-'94 timeframe. It was supposed to be a video server; i.e., multiply specified video streams could be served up to various clients.

Hmmm. I haven't heard of anything about it since then.

It is a little program that you might now know as Windows Media Server, and has been a part of the NT platform for several years. It is also built into Windows 2000 and 2003 servers.

We use Windows 2003 as media distribution devices, and have used Windows Servers for this for years now.

Heck even the theater and video streams in my house all come from a Windows Server.

Just like several theaters are doing all over the country that have converted to digitial distribution. (Think of the irony that the next time you see a high quality digital flick at your local theater is running a Windows Media Server.)

Best joke I've heard in weeks...

[Weaselmancer]

Tiger Server will focus on open source, Windows, and ease of use.

Kinda reminds me of the old joke: Good, cheap and fast, pick any two.

Re:Best joke I've heard in weeks...

[Anonymous Coward]

and you cant even pick good and fast no matter your budget :)

Re:Best joke I've heard in weeks...

[Anonymous Coward]

Joke?

Re:Best joke I've heard in weeks...

[Anonymous Coward]

old joke....
In architecture(real buildings) it is a rule.
although good and faster is kind of limited by how many people can fit in the room before they keep knocking each other out with hammers.

Re:Best joke I've heard in weeks...

[vantango]

Kinda reminds me of the old joke: Good, cheap and fast, pick any two.

So that would be:
Good, Fast = Mac
Cheap, Fast = Linux
Good *cough*, Cheap = MS.

Re:Best joke I've heard in weeks...

[Anonymous Coward]

Another funny joke... read the picture caption

linky

information stored on hard drives?!? i'll never lose it again!!

Re:Best joke I've heard in weeks...

[Anonymous Coward]

I don't think these words mean what you think they mean in this context..

Re:Best joke I've heard in weeks...

[EvilTwinSkippy]

It's "Cheap", "Fast" and "Right".

And frankly there is no mutual exclusion between open-source and ease-of-use. By using open-source tools for your backend, you can spend more time refining the interface, and less time re-inventing the wheel.

Re:Best joke I've heard in weeks...

[Anonymous Coward]

That's what's so nice about Apple. They actually manage to do all three, and give you a fourth you never even thought of.

Finally 64-bit

[Anonymous Coward]

Finally, a 64-bit OS. Took them what, a year?

Re:Finally 64-bit

[jellomizer]

Well that is actually good time. It took about that long for Sun to come up with a 64 bit version of Solaris. But compare it to microsoft who is still trying to get 64 bit to work right.

Re:Finally 64-bit

[e40]

A year? Try almost 2. If it comes out next summer, that will be a little shy of 2 years after their 64-bit hardware was released (late summer '03 to early summer '05).

Re:Finally 64-bit

[Anonymous Coward]

What took for linux to put the 64bit support?
Anyone knows? just curious...

Re:Finally 64-bit

[iabervon]

It took Linus about a year (1994-1995) to do the Alpha port, which was 64-bit, a completely different architecture from x86, and required adding support for having multiple architectures in the same tree. Of course, making something 64-bit clean is easier if there's less of it, and Linux was small then.

Re:Finally 64-bit

[TheNetAvenger]

But compare it to microsoft who is still trying to get 64 bit to work right.

Yeah, it has taken Microsoft FOREVER, especially considering NT 4.0 was a 64bit OS on Alpha back in 1996 - let alone that Windows XP 64bit for Itanium was out in 2001.

Man, Microsoft is really behind the curve here...

It is great Apple is making great roads into the 64bit progression; however, ignorance of Microsoft's advances don't mean that Apple is the leader in this area.

Let alone the various other 64bit OSes that have been around for a while.

Do people really not know this stuff here? I thought this is where intellectual geeks talked about new and exciting concepts. Not praising companies and bashing others for doing the same things.

Oh wait, silly me... (This is the year 2004, and slashdot has turned into geeks and AOL users, that are either new to this stuff or just fan boys/girls of a singular concept or platform without knowing much of the rest of the world)

Re:Finally 64-bit

[demon]

especially considering NT 4.0 was a 64bit OS on Alpha back in 1996

Wrong - Windows NT for Alpha/AXP was NOT 64-bit. It used the Alpha's 32-bit mode. This was a well-known issue at the time. (I was working for government environmental monitoring facility at the time, and we had some company come in and demo NT on an AlphaServer for us, so I learned a thing or two about it.)

Also, Microsoft may have internal builds of 64-bit Windows, but no shipping products for IA64 or x86_64 so far. That's right, not one. So yes, MS is very much behind the curve. Linux was 64-bit on Alpha some time ago, for example.

Re:Finally 64-bit

[hkb]

Hmm, that's weird. You must be talking about another Microsoft. The Microsoft I'm aware of has had 64-bit versions of Windows floating around for the public for quite some time now.

http://www.microsoft.com/windowsserver2003/64bit /d efault.mspx

Oh, and by golly, look at this search, which pulls up several articles discussing 64-bit Windows 2000, circa 1999/2000:

http://www.google.com/search?q=%22windows+2000%2 2+ %2264-bit%22&sourceid=firefox&start=0&start=0&ie=u tf-8&oe=utf-8

God bless you cluebies.

Re:Finally 64-bit

[Anonymous Coward]

Stuff it up your ass, hkb.

If we both had to shove as much text up our ass as existed on the topic of 64-bit computing, then your ass would have ruptured the first moment with all the Microsoft users asking about the "Any Key."

64-bit goes beyond searching on Google. Microsoft just floods the net, by its fanatics dedicated to free advertising for Microsoft, on the topic of 64-bit computing. sic: The number of people now discovering 64-bit computing, Microsoft's end-users of its virus-laden software, out-number the number of users and developers of the already-existing 64-bit operating systems.

Micro$oft 1s a shit in teh spoke.

Sincerily,

Alpha Troll

Re:Finally 64-bit

[TheNetAvenger]

Wrong - Windows NT for Alpha/AXP was NOT 64-bit. It used the Alpha's 32-bit mode. This was a well-known issue at the time.

Not sure what you are smoking, but there was no 32bit mode on the Alpha CPU.

There was a 32bit emulation mode that allowed the Alpha CPUs to run Intel programs under NT, but that was just a compatibility later that allowed regular Intel based 32bit NT applications to run the 64bit Alpha. The OS itself had a 64bit memory space and ran 64bit processes natively. (with the exception that the memory space was reduced below a full 64bit of available memory to be compatible with older Alpha CPUs of the 1993 period.)

Do a little research, and I hope to God you still don't work for the government.

Re:Finally 64-bit

[hkb]

I love you.

Re:Finally 64-bit

[shoeless_barney]

Hey Computer "Mensa", compiling XP in 64-bit mode does not make it 64-bit "useful", and computationally fast. A tuna-fish can release a 64-bit OS, but to truely leverage 64-bit, please Microsoft. Come on Phoneix On-Line Grad. Sun Solaris and Linux are much better, heck, even AIX 5.2 is a better 64-bit OS then the "Been there since 1996" Microsoft.

Re:Finally 64-bit

[TheNetAvenger]

Hey Computer "Mensa", compiling XP in 64-bit mode does not make it 64-bit "useful", and computationally fast. A tuna-fish can release a 64-bit OS, but to truely leverage 64-bit, please Microsoft. Come on Phoneix On-Line Grad. Sun Solaris and Linux are much better, heck, even AIX 5.2 is a better 64-bit OS then the "Been there since 1996" Microsoft.

You know, what you say sounds really good, until a person that has a brain reads your words and concludes that you are just bloviating opinion.

If NT was not 'performance' optimized as a 64bit OS, then it would have been really stupid for DEC to use NT as the demonstration OS/Platform to showcase the power and speed of the Alpha CPU.

But yet, DEC did exactly that, not only in performance numbers they touted and released, but at every new CPU launch and exhibition, NT was the OS DEC primarily used.

You would think a company that could envision and build a CPU as powerful as the Alpha would be as 'smart' as you and pick a truly 'performance' enhanced OS so their CPU would even look more impressive. Darn, they really needed your 'wisdom'.

Should I say you are an intellectually insecure, arrogant ass in my response or do you think that everyone that read your posting has already figured it out?

PS - When trying to sound intellectually superior and doing the whole dated condescending post, you might want to at least spell Phoenix correctly.

Re:Finally 64-bit

[shoeless_barney]

Not a bad reply Mensa, still wrong, weak and bais. I agree I should have spelled Phoenix correctly, to much Miller. What happened to DEC after the NT debacle "Super Man".?? Let that speak for itself. And. the poor guy (NT 3.1 Designer) designed VMS, but Microsoft got the best of him.

Re:Finally 64-bit

[TheNetAvenger]

Not a bad reply Mensa, still wrong, weak and bais. I agree I should have spelled Phoenix correctly, to much Miller. What happened to DEC after the NT debacle "Super Man".?? Let that speak for itself. And. the poor guy (NT 3.1 Designer) designed VMS, but Microsoft got the best of him.

First it is 'too', not 'to' and this is how you spell 'bias'.

Secondly, what even is your reference to the NT Debacle and its effect on DEC? Again you know nothing of the subject.

Compaq bought DEC and the Alpha mid 1999. Windows 2000 was in beta and available up to RC1 for the Alpha CPUs. Compaq had no interest in continuing support of their newly acquired Alpha CPU, and halted their end of production in working with Microsoft. Microsoft had no choice but to pull the Windows 2000 for Alpha. (Even though I know of a few old time Alpha nerds that are still using Windows 2000 on the Alpha CPUs)

If Compaq had not bought DEC and scrapped the Alpha projects, there would have been a commercially released Windows 2000 and Windows XP for the Alpha CPU.

As for you argument about performance optimized OSes and their relation to the CPU and hardware, I suggest you take time to read about the design history of NT, the novel approaches in the HAL, and the modified kernel model that is still in theory one of the best designs that came out of both the MACH and Microkernel development worlds. Go look up Client/Server kernel and some of these terms that will be quite new to you.

Just put on your T-Shirt that says, "I am Mac/Linux/Solaris fan boy/girl," and leave the posting and debates for people that have been around and actually worked in and on the very projects you are trying to argue about.

Good Day

Re:Finally 64-bit

[shoeless_barney]

Dang, I got to watch the spelling. Your wrong again. I worked on the Solaris 2.3 & 2.4 kernel, so I hope I can hang with your superior intellect? I read inside NT, which is a pretty good indication of how NT was designed, it does have a Mach Kernel architecture, but they did not implement it cleanly, aren't drivers running in "ring 0", equivalent to compiling drivers into a kernel? Your completely fricking whacked on your assessment of DEC on NT. It sucked, performed like crap, I know, they tried to compete with us when I was at Sun. You ain't shown me you know shit about this subject, OS History, or kernel design...and you can make fun of my spelling Anal boy, but you don't know dick about this subject. DEC & NT, was a disaster, and it took DEC down. Your completely fricking whacked on your assessement of DEC on NT. It sucked, perfomed like crap, I know, they tried to compete with us when I was at Sun. You ain't shown me you know shit about this subject, and you can make fun of my spelling Anal boy, but you don't know dick about this subject. DEC & NT, was a disaster, and it took DEC down.

Re:Finally 64-bit

[TheNetAvenger]

aren't drivers running in "ring 0", ... equivalent to compiling drivers into a kernel?

There is too much crap and miss information in your post, and I don't have the time to waste in addressing it all.

Drivers do not run in Ring 0 on NT. The only low level driver access that was given to NT, was in version 4.0 and it was the Video drivers, and in technical terms, they run at Ring 1, not Ring 0. (And yes you can find references to where people state the video drivers are running at Ring 0, but technically this is an incorrect statement with the NT architecture)

Although it could have been disastrous for a driver to run at Ring 1 for NT, it has proven that it was the right decision; hence the reason graphics and games on the NT platform have the ability to take full advantage of the latest graphics hardware.

As to your reference of it being equivalent to compiling drivers into a kernel, do you even understand the difference between the two? Scary that you would even say this...

Apparently you didn't read Inside Windows NT, or you would have known these simple facts.

NT is NOT a MACH Kernel, nor a monolithic Micro-kernel, it is a combination of both concepts with extra ideas added by the NT team when NT was designed. The best way to describe it is a Client/Server Kernel model.

I worked on the Solaris 2.3 & 2.4 kernel, so I hope I can hang with your superior intellect?

If you were working on the Solaris kernel, now we know why Solaris has gone to hell, and even Sun is moving to the Linux world.

but you don't know dick about this subject. DEC & NT, was a disaster, and it took DEC down.

Really? Funny that DEC is still alive in the soul of Compaq/HP, and was more than just a microprocessor company that provided many technologies. So for you to assert that one CPU division (The Alpha) made DEC fail by aligning with NT, you are off your nut.

I'm done with your inane ramblings; go find some other post to preach your religion. I like to live in a world of reality and logic, not fanaticism.

BTW - Love the run on paragraphs, did you know that you can hit the Enter key to make new paragraphs once in a while?

Re:Tired of Apple Fanboys?

[SpankMonkeyPox]

I love apple fan boys. If it wer'n't for Apple fan boys, you'd probably have a life

Mobile Home Directories...

[Anonymous Coward]

This is their new service so you can chat with people who live in a double-wide trailer. Kudos to Apple for finally making their technologies accessible to the lower end of the socioeconomic spectrum!

Market: Academics, education

[tbo]

We use an XServe G5 as a single sign-on and file server for a "lab" of about 14 FreeBSD and Windows XP machines. The computers are used as workstations (and occasionally for light numerical work) by theorists working on quantum information and quantum computation.

Macs seem to be quite popular among the quantum computing community. Ray Laflamme's group (U. of Waterloo and Perimeter Institute) uses them (although maybe they don't have an Xserve), and about 40% of the laptops at a recent quantum information conference I was at were PowerBooks.

Re:Market: Academics, education

[jabberjaw]

The High Energy Physics group at UW Madison is also a bit of a mac shop as they just purchased quite a few new G5's.

Re:Market: Academics, education

[anthony_philipp]

wait wait wait. you're the mac as the server and freebsd as the client? i mean i would assume you would want it the otherway around. get the fancy gui on the desktop and put freebsd where its best, serving.

freebsd is an alright desktop, its what i am currently using, but i think mac still has it beat

Also Announced: 20 - 30 inch displays

[green pizza]

Also announced were new monitors, that use DVI this time!! USB and Firewire hubs built in. Aluminum to match the G5. Smallest is 20" widescreen, largest is 30" (2560x1600, requires the DDL version of the GeForce 8600 Ultra).

More details at Apple.com.

Re:Also Announced: 20 - 30 inch displays

[Hatta]

DVI? I thought they were using a postscript based GUI. ;P

Re:Also Announced: 20 - 30 inch displays

[Anonymous Coward]

It looks like there are only two ports each for usb and firewire. This means I won't even be able to plug everything in (firewire: iPod, hard-drive, iSight, and potentially a DV camera; usb: mouse, Watcom tablet, digital camera, palm pilot). If they really wanted to build in a hub, they should have built 4 or 6 of each kind of port.

Re:Also Announced: 20 - 30 inch displays

[NeedleSurfer]

Viewsonic released, about two days later, this display, 9.1 million pixels goodness. Note that all those pixels are found on a screen that is 8 inch smaller than the Apple one, the pixels must be so tiny I doubt you can see them otherwise than by looking very closely at your screen and even then, images must be incredibly sharp. Working with text must be the ultimate pain however. Those monitors (even the Apple one) aren't use as main displays for this reason, whatever Apple tells you. These are made for media work, to display the project not the toolbars. The viewsonic screen requires a Quatro from Nvidia to drive it. the card-display combo will cost you an arm and a leg though so you better be needing it cause there won't be no gaming on those...

I think I just wet myself.

[csoto]

Someone pass the kool-aide! I'll drink anything Jobs is serving!

Re:I think I just wet myself.

[Anonymous Coward]

for the record, it was Flavor Aid, -not- Kool-Aid that was used in the Jonestown massacre. This has got to be one of the most widespread misconceptions. ;)
I think people just refuse to use the correct product name because it doesn't sound as "Kool".

--

Justin (largo) lost my account a -long- time ago and I don't care to make another one just to post once every 3 years. ;)

Thundercats!

[Anonymous Coward]

How about...
Lion-O
Panthro
Tygra
Cheetara
Wiley Kit/Kat
and of course....
Snarf!

An alternative name:
Pussy Galore

Groupware, groupware, groupware!

[Anonymous Coward]

Come ON, Apple! Get on the stick and give us something to replace/compete with Exchange!

Do you know how many MS Small Business Servers my company rolled out this year to clients who would have loved to use a Mac server if they didn't need Exchange? Plenty!

They've got all the pieces already-- Mail.app, iCal, Address Book-- why don't they church 'em up some, put them all together into a single app, and add the needed functionality to OS X Server to do the shared calendaring, etc?

Re:Groupware, groupware, groupware!

[medazinol]

Use the feedback page @ Apple to tell them. I did, lots of times.

Re:Groupware, groupware, groupware!

[TheRaven64]

I'm not really sure what you're missing. Mail.app is a mail client. It needs an SMTP server and a POP/IMAP server, all of which OS X Server provide. Windows / *NIX clients can use any mail client to interoperate (such as Mozilla Thunderbird).

iCal uses WebDAV for publishing calendars, in iCalendar format (defined in a couple of RFCs). OS X Server provides the Apache WebDAV module, allowing this. Windows / *NIX clients can use any standards compliant calendar app (such as Mozilla Calendar).

Address book uses vCards (again, defined by RFC) and integrates with an LDAP server, such as the one provided by OS X Server. Windows / *NIX clients can use any address book app that understands LDAP.

So what, exactly, do you feel they are missing. I'm not sure what benefit you get from having them all in the same application (the APIs for address book, for example, are exposed so any app, including Mail.app, can access and control it).

Disclaimer: I have never used Exchange, and I would honestly like to know what you feel is missing on the Mac (and *NIX) side.

Re:Groupware, groupware, groupware!

[Anonymous Coward]

Outlook has the virtue of using fewer windows than having seperate applications for Mail, Calendar, and Address (though I do prefer the Apple Mail program and Calendar programs to Outlook and the Address book is a wash). Perhaps if I could create my own "virtual applications" so that I could Expose those three windows together, I'd mind a lot less. Or even better, if I could plunk down these applications in my own shell with tabs (selected using pretty icons), I'd be very happy. There is a reason people like Safari tabbed browsing and it has to do with less window clutter.

One thing that annoys me about Apple is that they don't fully cater to the power users (who are making up more and more of their market). There just aren't that many ways to customize (that I know of) the Apple only things like you can with traditional X and Unixy kinds of things.

Re:Groupware, groupware, groupware!

[WindBourne]

I am willing to bet that they will soon have a version of kolab out on the system.

http://www.apple.com/quicktime/qtv/mwsf04/

[itomato]

http://www.apple.com/quicktime/qtv/mwsf04/ Doesn't seem to work, though. I've been trying all day, and I never get anything more than 'bad request' - familiar, or nothing at all. Was it there, or no?!

Re:http://www.apple.com/quicktime/qtv/mwsf04/

[danalien]

eem' that's from the februari *iirc* 'MacWorld'-thingie that was in sf. (hence the 'mwsf')

I was more looking out for the WWDC (the june-thinge :-))

Re:http://www.apple.com/quicktime/qtv/mwsf04/

[mightymik2]

working now as of this post anyway...here we go...

Re:http://www.apple.com/quicktime/qtv/mwsf04/

[mightymik2]

yep..i didn't look close enough...but that link does work :)) but the link we WANT *is* still fubar.

Java application middleware

[sys49152]

Currently OS X Server ships with JBoss, and opinions about Mark Fluery aside, that's a good thing. However, there's a ship about to leave, and Apple should do what they can in the next 12 months to be sure and get on it. That ship is the "tiny container" (for lack of a better name). Those frameworks that aim to compete with J2EE by introducing a simpler, lighter container for hosting your Plain Old Java Objects. They do not provide persistence (you get that from Hibernate, for instance), they do not provide transactions (you get that from a JTA provider), etc. What they do provide is a lightweight container and an integrtated AOP framework for glueing it all together.

There's no argument that these containers are getting a lot of attention (so much so that the latest J2EE spec does what it can to emulate them -- not enough). Apple can win some serious street cred among app server developers by adopting one of these frameworks, enhancing the code, hiring the developers (maybe away from BEA -- hint, hint) and integrating it with X-Code.

And by "lightweight container" I mean Spring, Pico, and, yes, even JBoss (once all the overweight J2EE stuff is tossed). There are others, of course, such as Excalibur, but Spring and Pico have all the mind share. Spring especially, it seems.

While I'm at it, if Apple really wants a piece of the application server space they should endorse Mono with equal vigor. Imagine, a .NET compatible runtime on OS X supported by Apple. Furthermore, those important Java/.NET sub-projects need full fledged support; Hibernate, Junit (Nunit), Ant (Nant), XDoclet, one of the umpteen MVC frameworks, and so on.

So there you have it Apple: Proudly ditch the complexity of EJB. Raise the flag of lightweight containers and AOP. Embrace .NET via Mono. Support those all so important tactical projects. And integrate -- fully -- the whole kit & kaboodle into your development environment.

You're welcome.

Re:Java application middleware

[CoolMoDee]

but isn't WebObjects J2EE? As I have heard (I havn't had a reason to mess with WebObjects yet), but it is supposed to be easy as hell to program j2ee apps in. Like as easy if not easier than asp.net. I highly doubt apple would get behind mono, why should they when .net sucks (even with vs.net it sucks) compared to cocoa (yes, i do program with both, .net for a living and cocoa the rest of the time).

Re:Java application middleware

[Anonymous Coward]

Java, .NET, what's the difference? Neither are as elegant as objective C and Cocoa. What we really need is an "enterprise Cocoa" framework. I believe the old NeXT boxes had something for databases and ORM, let's revive that!

What I really love about the mac is Cocoa and ObjC. I like dynamic programming (Ruby is my favorite) and somehow Java and .NET just seem like such un-Mac-like environments. They just stuck Java in there to be buzzword compliant, I hope they never touch .NET or Mono (being microsoft technologies).

Isn't Pico a system for *connecting* containers? any Java bean is a "container", isn't it?

Re:Java application middleware

[atlasheavy]

Funny, I work with .Net for a living and Cocoa in my spare time too. I find it far easier to crank out apps in C# than Objective C, though. There is too much tedious rigamarole in XCode and IB to creating applications incrementally. I feel like IB wants you to have your whole damned UI planned out immediately (the post-file generation outlet/action creation process does not work too well in my opinion).

What version of VS.Net are you using? 2002 or 2003? Have you given any thought to giving 2005 a whirl once it hits beta? I'd be curious to know :-).

Re:Java application middleware

[killjoe]

Bah! Drop java, c# and objective C. Move on to something truly lightweight like python or ruby. Python + zope3 now there is a lightweight container to crow about.

Re:Java application middleware

[coldcup]

http://www.apple.com/webobjects/

Try looking around some.

Re:Java application middleware

[demon]

I don't necessarily think it's such a great idea for Gnome or other projects to go with Mono, but Apple? I mean, for all the talk, Microsoft is still "the bad guys" from where Apple sits. And yes, I know MS didn't develop Mono - Miguel de Icaza and other open-source developers have. However, Microsoft hasn't yet started playing hard-core intellectual-property games with C# and the .Net class libraries - and you know it's going to happen, you really can't deny it. It's just a matter of time. And I think it's a fight that Apple probably, if they're smart, wants to stay out of.

Re:Java application middleware

[CoolMoDee]

I do agree, that the outlet thing can be kind of a pain, but, its not that big of a pain to me.I only have IB generate the code when I first create the ui. After that, if I add an outlet, its not that hard (and faster) for me to type

IBOutlet NSTextView bob;

I am using VS.net 2003. I may give 2005 a whirl, but can't right now as I am in the middle of a project. (well I could, but I don't want to break anything etc..). I will probably stick with 2003 though, as it works and honestly, I don't like developing on windows.

However, I do agree, that in some cases, it is easier to crank out apps in C# than in ObjC/Cocoa, I don't like .net because it feels rather...uneligant in design...compared to Cocoa. But it all comes down to what os, language and development environment one prefers. I myself love os x, learned to love objc, and while XCode could be better, I think its damn good for free.

Server...

[minotaurcomputing]

I really dislike the server pricing scheme as a home user. Yeah yeah yeah. I realize the Apple viewpoint of "why would home users need server software"? (I've asked them) But as a person who would like a single license for my G5 with a couple FreeBsd and Windows nodes, $500 for 10 licenses doesn;t work for me. It's unfortunate.

In a related note, is it possible to acquire certain server extensions (Blojsom or Jabber for example) and plug them into Tiger proper?

Re:Server...

[Anonymous Coward]

i hate to break it to you, but you've really got no need for osx server. the "home" version can do EVERYTHING the "server" version can. it's bsd under the hood for christ's sake!

Re:Server...

[Anonymous Coward]

Then just use the standard version of OS X. OS X includes file sharing through AFP, SMB, and NFS. It includes Apache, FTP, and Postfix. You can download and compile the rest of the programs. All that $500 (or $380, to be more accurate) buys you is the tools to set up and administer these services quickly.

Re:Server...

[Anonymous Coward]

So go to work for an Apple Reseller. Then you get Not-For-Resale copies of the expensive stuff. Technically it's for demoing to customers, but if you've gotta learn the ins and out of and support the stuff what better way to get good at it than by using it in your home?

Hell, I've got a 'lab' setup in my basement, and I'm soon going to be migrating my AppleShareIP servers to Panther Server-- all thanks to NFR copies of Apple products.

Re:Server...

[Pfhor]

I remember from when 10.1 came out (or sometime around that), some ingenious folks threw together a .pkg that would install all the features and options of the 10.1 server at the time (pretty much redid some config files, and made a nice server interface).

I totally forgot the name, someone else here may bring it up.

Bloxsom is already out for OS X, you can use that.

Jabber... I'm not to sure if apple will released their jabber server, i really wish they would open up the iChat SDK. And check the darwin forums, apple may have to release their Jabber server (and it makes sense for them to have ichat support / features from jabber available on other servers).

Apple copying shareware again?

[shigelojoe]

Go ahead and mod me 'Flamebait', but some of the new features very strongly resemble applications written by independent developers. Dashboard? Meet Konfabulator. Spotlight? Meet Launchbar. Safari's new RSS feature? Meet NetNewsWire. IIRC, Apple did the same thing involving Watson when it added channels to Sherlock.

Maybe this is why Apple distributes the Developer Tools free of charge; so they can coopt any product that is created using those Developer Tools?

Re:Apple copying shareware again?

[superpixel2000]

This is absolutely a valid point. I was considering Konfabulator (and until I see more/better widgets from Cupertino may still) until I saw Dashboard. Apple is getting into a rather nasty habit here...

Of course, Microsoft isn't much better, but at least they'll buy you out before crushing you... Right?

Then again, there are cases where 3rd parties are making better stuff than Apple. Witness 'A Better Finder Rename' and 'Wheel' (Wheel is from Spymac, along with a host of .mac-esque services that outdo Apple on pricepoint at least).

Re:Apple copying shareware again?

[TheOtherAgentM]

Yeah, it looks like Apple is shoving smaller developers out of the market. The same thing happened when iTunes came out and Audion got forgotten. (I even had to look up the name of the software just to be sure, and I used to use this software.) Like when iTunes was released, I doubt anyone will be complaining except the developers being bullied out. Apple does a good job of making you forget they aren't the original creators of a lot of things.

Re:Apple copying shareware again?

[CoolMoDee]

Konfabulator, I understand where you are comming from. But since how does adding rss support to safari all of a sudden make netnewswirte obosolete? Netnews Wire is a great app, and will still serve a purpose. Besides, RSS is a logical new feature to add to Safari anyways, with all of these blogs/news sites etc. to keep track of, I don't really want get a whole group of bookmarks and "Open in tabs" it. It is a waste of bandwidth (both ends) and a waste of time if there isn't an update. RSS will be the new bookmarks, except you will only check them when there is updated content.

Re:Apple copying shareware again?

[Alazoral]

I think you ARE flamebait. Konfabulator isn't the first widget thingy by far, and Apple's implementation looks much, much more efficient than Konfab's resource hogging. Just because it sits in the corner, Spotlight is a VERY DIFFERENT beast to launchbar. Its a system wide indexer that lets you instantly search METADATA and FULL CONTENT in both files and database listings, like Address Book and Mail as well as filenames, and it can store smart folders for quick access to saved searches like iTunes does. Launchbar is an APPLICATION launcher. From what I saw, Spotlight didn't care about applications at all, its for files and database entries. And Oh My God! RSS Aggregation Client! NetNewsWire, please meet OmniWeb, Livejournal, Slashdot, and a billion other aggregation programs. RSS was designed to do just that. Using a standard to do what its intended isn't what I'd call copying. How about you don't post with your gut reaction? It stinks.

Re:Apple copying shareware again?

[Nermal6693]

Dashboard copying Konfabulator? I disagree. If anything, I think Konfabulator's copying Desk Accessories, which date back to System 0.

Re:Apple copying shareware again?

[sparrow_hawk]

Interestingly enough, I noted in the Apple Developer Tools license (which I read just today) that Apple says something along the lines of "using this product doesn't mean that we won't take your ideas and make our own." That warning is really close to the top, so if you read the license at all, you can't claim nobody warned you.

Re:Apple copying shareware again?

[prockcore]

Like when iTunes was released, I doubt anyone will be complaining except the developers being bullied out.

That's pretty dismissive. Apple isn't large enough to be the only company supporting the Mac. Alienating third party developers isn't a good business strategy.

Eventually the only software you'll be using on the mac is software made by Apple.. and if you look at how Apple has been ignoring a lot of their own products (Quicktime Broadcaster is a good example of software that started out great and then failed to get any bug fixes or updates for 2 years), it will only get worse as Apple falls more and more behind.

Re:Apple copying shareware again?

[Halo1]

Ideas are free. There is no "IP" protection for ideas, nobody can own an idea (except sometimes through creative usage of software patents). And that's a good thing: it creates competition, since one idea can spawn a lot of different implementations. If you allow monopolies on ideas, the market becomes poorer, not richer. FWIW, I don't complain when Microsoft "steals" ideas from Apple either. You simply can't steal an idea, because ideas are not someone's property.

Re:Apple copying shareware again?

[FerociousFerret]

But iTunes was the 3rd party program SoundJam that Apple purchased from Casady & Greene and then improved. This is probably not the best example.

Re:Apple copying shareware again?

[yabos]

Maybe once someone has implemented an idea, no one else should be allowed to even come close to making something similar? Yeah right. Competition is a good thing. The thing last year with the Camino developer crying about Apple including Safari with the OS is sort of the same. People will still use whatever they like best, and if that's Safari, or Dashboard then maybe the other developers should rethink their apps a bit.

Re:Apple copying shareware again?

[ALpaca2500]

Apple purchased from Casady & Greene and then improved.

"improved" in some ways, but at the time of iTunes 1.0, they took out a LOT of features from soundjam that i rather enjoyed... i would still use soundjam over iTunes, if it were available for OS X.

Re:Apple copying shareware again?

[Pendersempai]

Actually, Launchbar can launch anything you can open with a double click, and some things you can't.

I use it for applications, documents, bookmarks, song files in iTunes (faster than iTunes' own search feature), etc.

It supports abbreviations -- very useful -- which seems like the only thing to differentiate it from Apple's SpotLight.

Frankly, Launchbar is useful enough that Apple should have bought it five years ago and bolted it right onto the Finder. We'll see what Apple's solution looks like.

Re:Apple copying shareware again?

[OSeXy]

"Microsoft isn't much better, but at least they'll buy you out before crushing you... Right?"

Gates and Co. didn't get rich by writing checks.

Re:Apple copying shareware again?

[pudge]

iTunes is a bad example. Apple used to purchase quite a few smaller products from other developers and put them in the OS. Windowshade was one, and the menu bar clock was another (I forget the orignal name!). iTunes was SoundJam MP. It's an example of Apple paying another company for its work.

OTOH, Sherlock 3 and Dashboard are examples of taking someone else's ideas without paying for them.

As to NetNewsWire, that's just silly. NNW was hardly the first RSS reader, and Safari's is almost nothing like NNW's. And from what I have seen, NNW is significantly superior, except in searching. Hell, I wrote an RSS reader in perl that looked more like Safari's RSS than NNW does, five years ago.

LaunchBar too, that's silly. Spotlight is similar to LaunchBar in that they both do searching, but it's something that has existed in various forms in the OS for years, and works very differently from how LaunchBar works. It's more like stealing from Longhorn than it is stealing from LaunchBar.

Re:Apple copying shareware again?

[CrazyTalk]

And is it just me, or does Dashboard resemble 20-year old technology in the form of the old TSR (Terminate and Stay Resident) apps for the PC, like sidekick for DOS . Seems Hardly "revolutionary".

Re:Apple copying shareware again?

[Herbmaster]

Apple used to purchase quite a few smaller products from other developers and put them in the OS. Windowshade was one, and the menu bar clock was another (I forget the orignal name!)

SuperClock!
Actually, I don't remember Apple buying SuperClock from its developer. I think they might have just offerred the guy a job. For some reason, I don't remember, that was sort of 15 years ago.

BTW, it goes both ways. Remember Apple's mind-numbling backwards strategy for Control Strip when it first came out (pre-System 7.5)? Control Strip begat Desktop Strip.

Re:Apple copying shareware again?

[Chucker23N]

- Konfabulator: You may have a point there; the concepts are similar, and even the coding style is almost the same.

- LaunchBar: Has got *nothing* to do whatsoever with Spotlight. LaunchBar is a launcher for applications, address book entries, etc. Spotlight is a file metadata indexing and searching tool, like "SmartQueries" in BeOS or somewhat similar to "WinFS" in Longhorn.

- NetNewsWire: as the author of it pointed out, he sees Safari RSS as an *opportunity* for RSS application developers, as it will further spread the message of RSS.

- Watson: my opinion on this has always been that doing that was the next obvious step after Sherlock 2.

Re:Apple copying shareware again?

[Chucker23N]

QuickTime Broadcaster is more of an example app on how to use the Streaming Server. For any serious streams, you will end up wanting to use something more professional (and not free) anyway.

Re:Apple copying shareware again?

[Chucker23N]

Agreed. As to NetNewsWire, the complaint is even more ridiculous considering the response of the developer to Safari RSS: http://inessential.com/?comments=1&postid=2872 - where he even *praises* Apple for doing this, with the reasoning that this will spread the message of RSS.

I'd also like to add on "It's more like stealing from Longhorn than it is stealing from LaunchBar." that Longhorn (or Microsoft, for that matter) was hardly the first project / company to figure this idea out. BeOS had most of this long ago with Smart Queries. The GNOME project has been thinking about this with GNOME Storage. Apple has had patents on things like this since the Copland project of the early 90s. NONE of that has anything to do with LaunchBar, and NONE of it is "innovation from Microsoft".

Re:Apple copying shareware again?

[JJahn]

"Buy him out boys" -- from a Simpsons episode where Bill Gates buys out homer's internet business by having his goons trash the place

RE: server pricing

[King_TJ]

Umm... I can understand not liking a $500 price tag for *any* piece of software. But realistically, what other commercial server type OS are you going to buy for much less than Apple's price on OS X server? (If you're a student, work for the government in any capacity, or even serve in the military, you should already qualify for at least a small discount already - since Apple always offers that.)

I've never seen Novell offer a copy of Netware real cheap for home users just wanting to try using it for 1 or 2 workstations.... and Microsoft sure doesn't offer Windows 2003 Server at anything resembling "inexpensive pricing".

I think that's pretty much the reason for the popularity of Unix type open-source OS's in the first place. If you just want to tinker at home, Linux or BSD should do the job for you, and not cost you hundreds of dollars.

Re:Licensing tsarkon reports Solaris rules FAG.

[Anonymous Coward]

Let's get this straight -- you are talking about the irrelevance of Solaris in a MacOS X Server thread? Irony++

ACLs

[Johnny Mnemonic]

The summary above neglected to mention the promise of ACLs:

"Tiger Server goes beyond the limitations of traditional UNIX file permissions to give you greater flexibility over assigning access permissions to files, folders and network services. Access Control Lists (ACLs) in Tiger Server let you set a whole group as the owner of a file or folder rather than just an individual -- you can even assign unique access permissions for multiple users and groups. This makes it easy to set up collaborative environments with smooth file sharing and uninterrupted workflows, without compromising security.

Even if you have a multi-platform network, you can still enjoy the flexibility of ACLs in Tiger Server -- because they're compatible with those in Windows Server 2003 and Windows XP."

wtf this does to ls, chown and chgrp is anyone's guess. My guess: bad things. How in the world this was implemented will be interesting to know; a whole different volume format? Is it an option or mandatory? If it is still restricted to only one owner--who just happens to actually be a group, I can see how that would work. Or maybe through hard links, each link with a different permission set? Much remains to be seen about this compatibility feature--but if it works well it'll be welcome. If it doesn't there'll be hell to pay.

Re:ACLs

[Anonymous Coward]

Since a lot of code is based on FreeBSD 5.x, check out rwatson's page on POSIX.1e.

ACLs in FreeBSD (and by extension "Tiger") are based on the last public draft of the POSIX.1e document (it was never ratified). The procedure will be the same as is done in Solaris and Linux(?).

chmod and chown do not affect ACLs; to do that you have to use setfacl . When you use ls you do not see the extra ACLs, but a '+' character after the traditional permissions. The '+' tells you that ACLs are present; to view them you have to use getfacl utility.

Re:ACLs

[bruns]

They are probably impemented the same way its done in the linux 2.6 kernels - either taking advantage of the underlying file system's ability to store the data natively, or using a hidden file. IIRC, this is all done on the VFS layer, which I'm pretty sure MacOS X has the equiv. of.

Most of the standard tools like chown/chmod/ls/etc are ACL enabled and aware. The only applications which will have an issue with this are ones that are not ACL aware, AND ones that use a copy/save method which will blow away the underlying ACLs (passwd does this right now, as do many editors).

Otherwise, it is completely transparent to applications (even ones that aren't ACL enabled/aware).

Re:ACLs

[Guy Harris]

...the VFS layer, which I'm pretty sure MacOS X has the equiv. of.

Yes, it's called the VFS layer (just as it is on other BSDs - and as it was in SunOS 2.0, which had a VFS layer before Linux existed; the BSD VFS layer is a bit like the one in various SunOS releases, although it's not the same).

Re:ACLs

[stefanb]

I have mod points, but I'd rather reply to this: why did this get moderated "Insightful"? At best, it's flamebait, but I'd rather think troll.

wtf this does to ls, chown and chgrp is anyone's guess.

Where have you been the last, um, 10 or 15 years? Can't be bothered to just Google even for a second before going off like this?

I don't pretend to know much about ACLs or their history, but they have been part of many commercial UNIXes for quite some time (first time I came around them was on OSF/1), and they have been implemented semi-recently in Linux and the *BSDs. Samba has had ACL support since the late 2.x days, IIRC. And I have a hunch that Windows NT got it's model from adopting DCE.

So, let's think, what's Apple going to do? Considering that they track FreeBSD 5 closely, and FreeBSD 5 has ACLs?

Re: windows server pricing

[beavis88]

Last I checked, a Windows 2003 server license with 5 (FIVE!) client access licenses was about $3700.

Re: windows server pricing

[Anonymous Coward]

Only if you pick the most expensive version for trolling purposes.

If you sign up as a MS "partner", you can get all of their server software for $400 total:
http://members.microsoft.com/partner/sales marketin g/partnermarket/actionpack/actionpackus.aspx

Apple's Developer program gives you both OS X and OS X Server for $500, which isn't a terrible deal.

Re:Naming Convention

[smithmc]

How many felines are left?

Maybe they're actually naming the versions after German tanks. Let's see if the next one is "Leopard"...

Re:Market: Academics, education tsarkon reports

[Anonymous Coward]

catlogging? I shudder to imagine what that means.

It's here!

[acomj]

Its the WWDC 2004 keynote...
I'm watching it now..

Try here or
if that doesn't work.. The link is on This page

Re: server pricing

[Rutulian]

Except that Apple is bundling (mostly) free software. They aren't writing any of this software themselves. They are just grabbing Samba, writing a basic configuration tool/migration tool, and charging $500 for it. Samba is great software and certainly worth $500. But if you can download it for free and Apple isn't really adding any value to it, why pay for it?

pf, is it in OSX?

[ChocoboKnight]

Does anybody know if pf (OpenBSD's firewall) is included in OSX?

Re:pf, is it in OSX?

[Anonymous Coward]

No.

Re:pf, is it in OSX?

[Chucker23N]

No, it's not. Instead, OS X has FreeBSD's "ipfw".

Re: server pricing

[CoolMoDee]

they are adding tons of value to samba. The config tools for samba, and every other damon on the system. Not to mention support, so one can ring them when someone isn't working right. So when one pays $500 dollars for OS X Server, they are not just paying for samba and a default config. They are paying for samba/apache/whateverftpd/everything else with a REALLY nice (atleast as of panther, compared to configuration tools on Windows2k/Linux) set of configuration tools for them, as well as support AND 5 client licenses, which alone would run over 500 dollars...

Re: server pricing

[crem_d_genes]

(If you're a student, work for the government in any capacity, or even serve in the military, you should already qualify for at least a small discount already - since Apple always offers that.)

Servers are the one area where it seems that there is no break for educators, et al. I suppose the potential for someone using it for business applications is too hard to verify.

Are you a student?

[EvilStein]

Do you know a student? Do you live near a school? Can you FIND a school?

The educational pricing for OS X Server is quite nice - and is a great alternative for those that just want to "use it at home" :)

Re:Are you a student?

[lacrymology.com]

"The educational pricing for OS X Server is quite nice"

Perhaps I made a mistake in speaking to an Apple representative, because I was told in no uncertain terms that student pricing is *not* available for OSX server software.

Re:Naming Convention

[Daengbo]

But then they could always do the came with cats: calico, tabby...

Just aren't inspiring, are they?

Re:Licensing tsarkon reports Solaris rules FAG.

[Anonymous Coward]

Solaris is the ultimate at eating my asshole while tickling my nutsack with your nose.

Read slower and take in more content.

Every. Single. Thing. That. Sun. Is. First. To. Implement. Will. Appear. Later. On. Someone. Elses. OS. And. It. Will. Be. The. Shit. When. They. Do. It.

Being first and being better doesn't mean one God damned thing in this world. Being first to make noise with it does.

Moot point anyway. Mac and Linux will get "x" amount of applause for doing it after Sun (which gets no applause because they're Sun and this week they're your Java desktop company, next week they'll be your "delivering streaming monkey fucking apps to your PDA through your bunghole IN JAVA...plus we make Solaris company)

And then a couple of years later Windows will add it but it won't work right, be shot full of holes, and leave a steaming turd in your mouth right before it reboots (courtesy of the NAMBLA.SteamingTrd.Trojan virus) and they'll still be lined up 2,000 deep to buy it because they read about it in "Windows Dominator Weekly" magazine which they get sent free of charge and their boss thinks is where you learn this shit when you're not in MCSE classes.

It just doesn't matter Solarisman. It JUST DOESN'T MATTER.

You'd think a fucking Solaris fluffer would know better than to debate the futility of being better in Windows world with a Mac user wouldn't you. Well, you'd be wrong.

strange moderation- Links to quicktime

[acomj]

I link the keynote which is interesting.. Get modded to "flamebait"????. Maybe someone couldn't get a good connection?

Anyway here are the working links again..

Quicktime WWDC
or a more direct link

Anyway I finish watching. Interesting stuff. The system wide search is interesting. Like the google search service for your hard drive.

The the real time image/video effects. I do a lot of photoshop and the effects are really fast and leverage the video card GPU. The libraries will autodetect the card and use the card if applicable. 100+ effect libraries with the os to build into application.

They're working hard on the OS and it shows.

How to convert in emacs rmail.

[Anonymous Coward]

How would you set up automatic converting when your city council will not?...

On the 20" iMac apple computer OS X 10.3.4 I read email in the terminal window by using ssh to the university and running emacs rmail. Boston city council distributes public notices of council committees public hearings but the public notices are in microsoft word .doc formatting attached.

Re:Tired of Apple Fanboys?

[JudgeFurious]

You missed me.

Searching for Terrorists...

[big daddy kane]

maybe big bro can use searchlight technology to find terrorists quicker...

Does anyone else find it sinister?

[Enlarge Your Penis]

That Apple are following the naming conventions for Nazi armoured vehicles? Is this Job's final solution to the Microsoft problem?

Re:Does anyone else find it sinister?

[rozz]

Apple are following the naming conventions for Nazi armoured vehicles? Is this Job's final solution to the Microsoft problem?

interesting solution .. especially if you consider that "Nazi armoured vehicles"(=tanks) dissapeared after Tiger II

Re:Does anyone else find it sinister?

[Anonymous Coward]

The Leopard is currently in service with the German Army.

I have to wonder why Microsoft would name an OS after the University of Texas football team.

I just have to ask this

[M. Baranczak]

OK, I use Macs every day, and I'm sure MacOS 10.4 will be an excellent system... but come on, "blojsom"? Who comes up with names like that? Somebody who thought that the word "blog" doesn't sound stupid enough on its own? I always thought Apple had better taste than that.

Re:I just have to ask this

[Anonymous Coward]

I gotta do this as an AC, but am I the only one that looks at that as its some type of pornographic term?

Kinda seems like Blow Job and Jiz all sorta rolled into one.

Get hot blojsom pics in your email every day!

Re: server pricing

[Too Much Noise]

they are adding tons of value to samba.

A config front-end hardly qualifies as 'tons of value'. Since the heavy lifting is done by free software, they're in the same league with Linux distros here. Which means the big money should be for support, not for the install CD.

Anyone else would have charged something like the desktop price + about $100 for the extra integration for the bare system software and add a premium for support. Apple being Apple, the premium is already in the baseline (and you get a limited number of clients as a perk). Unfortunately, this mentality will only enforce a marketshare cap for OSX Server.

Re:Naming Convention

[Anonymous Coward]

OS-X Terrier huh? So it constantly beeps at you whenever you look away from the screen?

Plus, would the OS be housebroken?

Very excited by Core Video

[gsdali]

Depending on how exactly it works. Hopefully, in the same way as core Audio it is not just a plugin and interconnect layer for video applications but a complet abstraction layer for hardware as well. Hurry up with some godamned documentation.

at the same time I was dissapointed not to see distributed rendering using Xgrid for Apples Pro Video Apps.

Re:Very excited by Core Video

[SlamMan]

They have Xgrid rendering in Shake already. Runs under under Qmaster, which came first.

And it makes a certain amount of sense not to have it in Final Cut. The data transfers seem like it would far outweigh the benefits of the extra processor power without some serious interconnect.

That said, I can't wait for Apple's to actually do it.

Re:Very excited by Core Video

[gsdali]

I'd agree with you there. But you could argue that that would be up to the person designing the network.

Re:Very excited by Core Video

[SlamMan]

Agreed. Even better if they're all pulling from the same source, say, an XRaid via fiber channel.

Re:Very excited by Core Video

[shawnce]

FYI, If you are ADC member (with a seed key) you can download the latest Tiger related documentation. This documentation bundle is later then the Tiger developer preview DVD handed out at WWDC.

CoreImage & CoreVideo are rather nice and parallel CoreAudio in many ways from what I have seen so far. Apple is on a strong push to bring in the compute capabilities of modern GPUs for things other then 3D and games, focusing on it as another system compute resource basically. Apple is of course eating its own dog food as well... let you think about how they may be doing that (since I am under WWDC NDA).

Re:Very excited by Core Video

[Spyritus]

They do, it is called QMaster.

Is in Shake already and used as well by Maya . Interestingly enough, installing Final Cut Pro installes the QMaster client, but not the monitoring software. It is needed by Compressor to operate.

Re:Very excited by Core Video

[mamahuhu]

Well - I saw a few more interface fripperies during the demo. Did you see the ripple effect on the launch of new widgets in Dashboard.

So forget Genie - Aqua is going to get a whole lot wetter. (ummm - does that sound pr0nographic?)

The interesting thing is that with so much being handed off to the GPU there is a serious amount of power on the new G5s. When will they start bleating on about Dual CPUs Dual GPUs and double double RAM RAM on both PUs?

Re:Very excited by Core Video

[gsdali]

Unfortunately I don't have a seed key. I don't evenb have a working OS X machine at the moment, which is even worse.

Re: server pricing

[Moofie]

That's a great question. If you don't think Apple is adding value, don't pay for it.

All the people who like the value Apple is adding will pay for it.

Both sets of people are happy.

Re: server pricing

[JohnsonWax]

Mac OS X Server pricing for .edu is half price. I bought a 3 year maintenance contract for my unlimited client server a day before 10.3 Server shipped for $499. That covered 10.3, will cover 10.4, and may or may not cover 10.5 - but I'm thinking not unless they ship by Sept. 2006.

The 10 client license is $249. There *may* be an even cheaper offer for ADC members.

Mobile Users same as 10.3 Server

[Wally4u]

Mobile Home Directories allows a mobile user to sync his home directory with a central server, backing it up and allowing an admin to manage it.

So does this mean they implemented the same Syncing as .Mac for the Servers? Because the current server can't do this. You have mobile user account but this only syncs the access rights etc not the user data.

Re:Mobile Users same as 10.3 Server

[Anonymous Coward]

Yes. 10.4 will auto sync the local and remote home folders.

Re:Mobile Users same as 10.3 Server

[EvilTwinSkippy]

I wonder if they use RSYNC for that.

I already use Rsync to back up people's laptops. (For PC's I install cygwin and set up shared keys to the users don't have to remember a password.)

No appleshare means no pay.

[ehack]

If you are not using AFS you can just use standard OS X as a server, and add the few extensions for services that are essential. Most stuff is already there under the standard user system anyway.

The services compile like on BSD, and you then do GUI-less administration for them. Apple basically sells you the fact that they have done all the compiling and configuring for you - I just wish some of the Open Source vendors did the same.

Re:No appleshare means no pay.

[Chucker23N]

The point of OS X Server is that it adds a beautifully-done GUI to typical Unix services out there. The "if you don't need AFS" argument doesn't count; might as well get Darwin then which has the very same AFS Server.

Re:No appleshare means no pay.

[ehack]

Why don't you use a Linux box and Webmin ? Why don' you use Darwin if you need AFS ?

The real point of your issue is that you, like many, want the benefit of an tightly integrated solution that just works - a thing the OS community does not supply - but refuse to pay a company for their proprietary solution to your problem.

Actually, I think that Apple is making a huge mistake by behaving this churlishly, because a lot of techies want to run all these services but don't have the time to admin them the hard way. If Apple Server was free, there would be a lot Macs getting bought, not to replace the Linux boxes but rather to supplement them.

Re:Licensing tsarkon reports Solaris rules FAG.

[Anonymous Coward]

solaris 7 was doing things years before the rest. solaris 7 is still ahead of linux of today. sorry.

your perpetual eructations here serve only to show that I am correct in this thread and you are both wrong and too inexperienced to even know that you are wrong.

so. while i get paid a premium to manage things that have near zero downtime, you can play in the commodity pond fed by an unfiltered sewer drain. au revior.

again. for posterity's sake. i am right. you have been nothing but wrong, anectdotal and show that it is likely that you are either worthles sor counterproductive in any discourse.

Re:Market: Academics, education tsarkon reports

[I(rispee_I(reme]

It's like weblogging, but with a cat instead of a web. Hope that clears things up.

Re:Naming Convention

[Anonymous Coward]

although dingo and hyena don't sound so good for OS names

It was the Dingos! Dingos ate my hard drive!

Re: server pricing

[Anonymous Coward]

I've never seen Novell offer a copy of Netware real cheap for home users just wanting to try using it for 1 or 2 workstations....

Sorry, beg to differ, in Germany at least there where several Netware 4.0, 4.11 Promos (maybe also newer versions) which offered exactly that: a Server for max. 2 Workstations connected/working. They where freebies given away with PC-Mags and could also be ordered from Novell - for a little fee or free, I cannot remember.

The kernel won't be 64-bit

[GrumpyOldMan]

There may be a 64-bit userland available, but from what I hear, the kernel won't be going 64-bit anytime soon because they don't want to force 3rd party developers to rebuild their kernel extensions.

This means that we'll have to live with a small (4GB) kernel address space for a long time. This makes entry into the kernel very expensive for syscalls, ioctls, etc. Its pretty much the same thing as the linux 4GB+4GB patches.

Re: server pricing

[hey!]

A config front-end hardly qualifies as 'tons of value'.

I dunno. There seems to be a lot more people who can create an operating system or network server application than can create a decent configuration utility.

How many great pieces of free software are there that take days to learn how to install and configure? Not having to do that is what people are paying for.

Re:WHICH ONE OF YOU KILLED MARY-KATE OLSEN???

[Anonymous Coward]

Well I didn't do it.

I can't help it if she starved after those piles of money fell on her. : )

[WARNING THIS IS A TROLL! MOD APPROPRIATELY]

Re:Apple copying shareware again? - Patent

[jcoder]

Did you ever hear of a patent?

If this software is truly innovative and original, it should be patented and protected. If it is, and Apple (or anyone else) copies it in such a way that violates the specifications of the patent, then you actually have a foot to stand on when you whine about software plagiarism and they can do something about it.

Really, is every piece of software on an OS suppose to be a totally original idea? Where would Linux be if that was true? Almost everything on Linux is a copy of (or inspired by) something else that was out there on another OS. The same can be said for most bundled software on all OS's. Their original ideas started somewhere else and someone on the product management team decided it would be benificial for the users of the OS to have these types of products readily available.

I'm not even going to get into how all of the products you mentioned are actually inspired by some OTHER product that exists (or DID exist at some time).

Re: server pricing

[crem_d_genes]

Strange - They've been holding to the 499 pricing with me for 10 client. 999 for unlimited.

Re: server pricing

[Rutulian]

as well as support AND 5 client licenses

This is the part I disagree with. Sure, config tools are great and support packages are great. If they had some nice tools, I would be willing to pay a few hundred for them. But what is a client license? Samba, Apache, ProFTPD, Bind, ... (all free software packages) don't have client license limits. Apple is artificially imposing a limit on the software to make more money. I don't mind paying for support, but milking your customers is total crap, and I don't like it whether it be Microsoft or Apple.

Also, btw, RedHat sells great support packages and tools with their Advanced Server distribution (with great deals for educational institutions, which is what Apple's distribution seems to be aimed at), and they don't cripple the software.

Re:Apple copying shareware again? - Patent

[Anonymous Coward]

Where did he/she say that what Apple is doing is illegal? The way I read the comment, all he/she said was that three of the new features in Tiger *closely* resemble shareware. Not that Apple should be taken to court or even be forced to settle with developers, just that Apple's reputation as an 'innovator' isn't *as* deserved when all of these 'new' ideas have been commercially available for a long time *and* that Apple has done this before.

So fuck you, and fuck all of the other Apple zealots that are jumping all over this guy for questioning Apple. Jesus Christ, if Microsoft did this all of you would be crying about how Microsoft is squashing the widdle investors. Fucking whiners.

Re: server pricing

[SlamMan]

The client license only applies to AFP (and possibly Samba) connections.

Re:Disappointing WWDC (Semi-off-topic)

[rainwadj]

Apple's WWDC is a developers conference. The focus is on getting information to developers so that they can create cool new applications, or add cool new features to existing apps. For example, the most important point that Jobs made about each OS feature was that the corresponding SDK will be available for developers to use.

Sure, a 60 gig iPod would be cool, but WWDC is not the place to announce it.

Re:Apple copying shareware again? - Patent

[jcoder]

Ah, but they are an innovator. Not only with software, but certainly with hardware also. I suppose your definition of a reputable innovator is one that only comes up totally original ideas? Please.

Whiners? Whiners? Isn't this the context of this very thread, you idiot? The original post was a whine, and I'm posting my opinion. Go figure.

As far as Microsoft is concerned, I don't bitch when they come out with new features for the OS or other software that *resembles* software that is already out there. I welcome it. Nothing drives innovation like competition.

Re: server pricing

[rasilon]

Novell used to do freebies, 5 user, non commercial, stuff like that. You probably didn't see them because it's not like they were advertised in any useful fashion. I only knew about them because I worked for a Novell reseller -- it's not like they'd be of any interest to the average home user.

The other big commercial OS available free would have to be Solaris, and that's free for commercial use as well, for however many processors it is today.

Re:Naming Convention

[yarisbandit]

Nah, OS X - Tiddles - is the job...

Re: server pricing

[EvilTwinSkippy]

I CAN configure Samba by hand, but it's worth it for me to pay for the tools.

Largely so I'm no longer the only one who can fix the equipment anymore. Do you know how nice life is when you can hand someone a dummy's book so you can move onto something more challenging.

Like posting on ./

Re:Active Directory-:Umm nope, it is as you said

[Anonymous Coward]

From Apple's website.

"Mac OS X Server is designed to fit into just about any managed network environment, including ones that use Microsoft's Active Directory. New Directory Access modules in Mac OS X Server enable the server to access account records stored in Active Directory, without requiring any modifications to the Active Directory schema. That means departments or workgroups in enterprise environments can take advantage of the low-cost file services in Mac OS X Server, while still integrating with their existing Active Directory infrastructure for user account information and authentication."

TIGGER!

[Anonymous Coward]

I'm taken to nicknaming Tiger "Tigger". With Jaguar it was "Jagwire"... nothing really good for panther unless you wanted to use two words (Pink Panther). But "Tigger" is great.

Re:Naming Convention

[Anonymous Coward]

Lifted off the web a long time ago. Sorry, I forgot the source, so I can't credit it to anyone. And it's not comprehensive [Puma and Panther were missing, although there is Cougar (Puma concolor) ].

Already used/taken
* Cheetah (Acinonyx jubatus) OS X 10.0
* Puma OS X 10.1
* Jaguar (Panthera onca) OS X 10.2
* Panther OS X 10.3
* Tiger (Panthera tigris) OS X 10.4

Wild Cat Species (alphabetical)
* African golden cat (Profelis aurata)
* Andean mountain cat (Oreailurus jacobita)
* Asian golden cat (Catopuma temminckii)
* Black-footed cat (Felis nigripes)
* Bobcat (Lynx rufus)
* Bornean bay cat (Catopuma badia)
* Canadian lynx (Lynx canadensis)
* Caracal (Caracal caracal)
* Chinese mountain cat (Felis bieti)
* Clouded leopard (Neofelis nebulosa)
* Cougar (Puma concolor)
* Eurasian Lynx (Lynx lynx)
* Fishing Cat (Prionailurus viverrinus)
* Flat-headed cat (Prionailurus planiceps)
* Geoffroys cat (Oncifelis geoffroyi)
* Iberian lynx (Lynx pardinus)
* Jaguarundi (Herpailurus yagouarundi)
* Jungle cat (Felis chaus)
* Kodkod (Oncifelis guigna)
* Leopard (Panthera pardus)
* Leopard cat (Prionailurus bengalensis)
* Lion (Panthera leo)
* Marbled cat (Pardofelis marmorata)
* Margay (Leopardus wiedii)
* Ocelot (Leopardus pardalis)
* Oncilla (Leopardus tigrinus)
* Pampas cat (Oncifelis colocolo)
* Pallas cat (Otocolobus manul)
* Rusty-spotted cat (Prionailurus rubiginosus)
* Sand cat (Felis margarita)
* Serval (Leptailurus serval)
* Snow leopard (Uncia uncia)
* Wildcat (Felis silvestris)

Re:Apple copying shareware again? Don't sharecrop

[mamahuhu]

It's been said before don't be a sharecropper.

If you must work on proprietary OSes then don't do something that extends the Operating System itself. Widgets are a classic example. If you read Konfabulator's post about it - they do not seem totally surprised.

Software development is a Red Queen Race - you've got to stay ahead of the competition by being better faster cooler. The race that Apple is running is not against its developers but Windows. All power to them. Sure it would be nice for them to buy up innovative products like they (supposedly) did with the original multi-finder.

Not sure why they don't. It seems obvious that Windows developers half hope that MS would buy them out. But it could be argued that this would open Apple up to problems of intellectual property challenges that they couldn't afford to pay for. If you've another idea way they don't play more fair then post here.

But they do buy out good software products. Some of the Pro software has been bought from other developers.

But if you develop software too close to Apple's core business then I guess you have to look at that Sharecropper paradigm again and avoid it.

So lookout if you work on the following plots of ground...

Search (Watson)
Music (Audion)
Networking (Dave)
Desk Accessories / OS extensions (Konfabulator)
Browsers / Internet Content & Search (Camino, NewsNetWire)
Video editing

I think you'd be foolish to develop a PVR for Mac OS X for instance - that covers several of the above fields... basically a Video iTunes with search and networking - perhaps that RSS stuff as well. Expect Apple to run with this for sure - that new codec H.264 should run pretty well over AirPort Express... and wait until wireless UWB Firewire hits silicon.

Still - shame on Apple - seems like they could do better. They even had the gall to present this stuff at the WWDC - where the developers would surely know where they were getting the inspiration from.... amongst the ranks of those in the audience. Hell the Konfabulator guys, Arlo Rose & Perry Clarke, were probably in the audience!

Re:Licensing tsarkon reports Solaris rules FAG.

[Anonymous Coward]

Time to feed the troll.

If it has near zero downtime, what idiot is paying you a premium to manage it?

Re:Naming Convention

[Anonymous Coward]

Cheetah was either 10.0 or 10.1, I don't remember which offhand.

If they open it up to extinct cats

[John Harrison]

You can have the saber-toothed cat.

Also, aren't a puma and a cougar the same thing? Also known as a mountain lion?

Re: server pricing

[Lars T.]

A config front-end hardly qualifies as 'tons of value'.

At least not to those who set up a server every other day.

Re:Licensing tsarkon reports Solaris rules FAG.

[Anonymous Coward]

Hahahahaha. I laugh at you. Solaris may be damn near perfect but its not sentient and doesnt configure itself. So when you work for a real company with changing hardware and software requirements and also patching and security maint. HAHAHAHA. You make me sick, scumbag. Your idea of administration is putting out fires, you are such a fucking loser lunatic.

Well...

[FredFnord]

If you're a student, you can get Server for $99... get a developer's license, which comes with a 5-user license for X Server.

If not, you can get a regular developer's package for $500/year, which doesn't save you anything from Server, but does get you hardware discounts, and seedings, and a dev tech support issue or two, and some other fun stuff.

That's how I got mine.

-fred

Lies! All of them! Infadel!

[Anonymous Coward]

Wrong - Windows NT for Alpha/AXP was NOT 64-bit. It used the Alpha's 32-bit mode.

Alpha platform does not have a 32-bit mode of operation. It is a clean design, 64-bit only.

Sincerily,

Alpha Troll

It's not available to students that way, but...

[FredFnord]

...if you get the student Apple developer's edition you get a 5-user X Server license with it. For $99.

And yes, you can use it as a production server.

-fred

Re:WHICH ONE OF YOU KILLED MARY-KATE OLSEN???

[Anonymous Coward]

Ya, Gomer's piles.

Apple Ozium.

[Anonymous Coward]

I hear most pederasts live in Mobile Home parks because most families there have two working parents and they leave their children home and can't afford to have a sitter to tend them.

'Brings new scope to the (GA-) Gay Apple movement and their affiliation with (NAMBLA) National Association Man Boy Love America.

Re: server pricing

[FredFnord]

A config front-end hardly qualifies as 'tons of value'. Since the heavy lifting is done by free software, they're in the same league with Linux distros here. Which means the big money should be for support, not for the install CD.

I love people who know exactly how everything 'should be'.

Anyone else would have charged something like the desktop price + about $100 for the extra integration for the bare system software and add a premium for support.

Yes indeed. And anyone else would have carefully made sure that you needed to use that support, too.

Apple being Apple, the premium is already in the baseline (and you get a limited number of clients as a perk). Unfortunately, this mentality will only enforce a marketshare cap for OSX Server.

Hogwash. The population of people who are unwilling to pay an extra $1000 for a good, low-mantenance server software solution tend to be the people who make their own $400 servers. (And then get confused when they die.)

Those willing to spend some money on the server will get X Serves anyway. Which come with an unlimited client copy of Mac OS X Server.

Yes, I am in IT. And we'll be getting an X Serve within the next year, and already have one machine running X Server (as a test machine for our server software). If the CTO weren't a Linux kernel hacker, we'd probably already have an X Serve or two.

-fred

Don't depend on any answers from Johny Nmemonic.

[Anonymous Coward]

This is the same guy that "dumped a chunk of long-term memory" ...down his pants; hot grits!

This is the same guy that had wild internet sex with a dolphin that cracked a poor-visual-illustration-of-a security daemon.

This is the same guy that was responsible for Bill And Ted's bogus movies.

This is the same guy...

Re: server pricing

[Too Much Noise]

Yes indeed. And anyone else would have carefully made sure that you needed to use that support, too.

this parses as if most/all the other packagers of OSS are just selling crippled versions that you need to continuously support ... that does not make much sense. The 'good, low-mantenance server software solution' called Samba (for instance) is the same once properly configured, whether packaged by Apple or some Linux distro.

The population of people who are unwilling to pay an extra $1000 for a good, low-mantenance server software solution tend to be the people who make their own $400 servers. (And then get confused when they die.)

I call bullshit on this one. Most of the times (there are exceptions on everything in nature) the do-it-yourself procedure teaches you more than a nice out-of-the-box setup. You'll get confused for a while by new problems in any field, but you learn to solve them (and get some understanding in the process) and move on. Of course, when you have a support line, you never get confused - you get busy calling the support people. Ignorance is bliss. Pray for no security holes ^_^

Now, I'm not saying a nicely set up server with good defaults is not a boon - it sure is, at least for getting started up. Sooner or later, there will always be that screwy special case that requires your getting down and dirty with the configuration settings, but the initial learning curve will be less steep. My argument was rather that a cheaper, unsupported and uncrippled version is really helpful for people that want to learn the ropes. Apple has a grasp of this with edu discounts on desktops, but apparently the servers won't qualify. With Linux, all the distros give you the server packages, some sane defaults and let you go from there, no strings attached. You do get to pay for support, which is something commercial entities are interested in (you should know since you stated being in IT - the need to have someone to point the finger at if things go wrong).

As a side note, not all the people who roll their own are cheapos - lots of large corporate networks have too weird quirks for the (otherwise sane) defaults of their servers to work, so they do in-house configuring and support.

Those willing to spend some money on the server will get X Serves anyway.

Take this statement on its own and see whether you understand how funny it is. Heck, take it in context too. Here's a clue: XServe is not a proven platform yet. See how any server platform that does not have the economy of scale Wintel has had trouble starting up (Linux is the glaring example, until the industry heavyweights started promoting it, it was just a geek toy; *BSD still is to some extent, just because of lack of high-profile commercial support.) Out there Macs are not a majority by any measure and no intelligent CTO will go out and buy XServe just because it hip OSX lineage. It's called best tool for the job under given circumstances.

In short, XServe is not a born winner (nor a born loser, either, but that's not the point). The loyal Mac fans are mostly desktop users, so unless Apple offers some really sweet deals it will have a hard time getting any kind of server market share. Right now, Windows and Linux are the growing server businesses. If Windows integration is a norm and Apple does it with OSS software, then there's not net gain against Linux here (Apple is not the only company smart enough to make efficient config tools, and you're not going to need reconfiguring your servers every other day). And, for that matter, I fail to see why a headless Samba server would need OSX - I could just as well use FreeBSD and have more freedom (and less worry). Or [insert commercial Linux vendor here] for support.

Re:Disappointing WWDC (Semi-off-topic)

[Anonymous Coward]

Many thanks for taking the time to respond rainwadj.

I'm relatively new to the Apple scene, and assumed the WWDC was the conference Apple used to talk about general products (especially after all the lead-up releases in the previous weeks like the Airport Express and Airtunes).

I promise to keep quiet in future 'til I know better ;^)

can't wait for the ads to come out

[6502_C64]

Apple with Tigers and Panthers, and Microsoft with their awaited Longhorn. I can picture new ad campaigns 1. Pack of Tigers stalking a herd of Longhorns, getting ready to pounce a stray Longhorn to shreds. 2. Microsoft answering back, we're going tiger hunting. 3. Apple using Henry Mancini's Pink Panther theme, along with a cartoon Inspector Closeau in their ad touting their OS file search capabilities. 4. Or have a celebrity like Roy, from Siegfried and Roy pitching that from now on, the only Tigers and Panthers he'll be working with are the ones from Apple.

Re:can't wait for the ads to come out

[Chucker23N]

Apple don't really advertise their OS.

Missing Mention

[achbed]

I can't believe that nobody has commented on the one other feature that other server-level systems have, that 10.3 and below lack: Ethernet link aggregation (aka FastEtherChannel, aka 802.3ad). It'll be great to have 4Gb of bandwith from the SAN and be able to pump out more than 1Gb to the same subnet.

What's with everyone's fascination over blogs, anyway? *ducks*

obsoletism

[tropavantgarde]

Maybe I'm just being a curmudgeon or something, but I'm starting to get really sick of Apple's obsoletism. Once your bank account has recovered from buying one 200 dollar operating system, it's marketing a new one. Now, I was really excited when I moved up from 7.6.1 to 10.1.4 (I'm a high school student, no money of my own, subject to my parents' OS whims). And I tell you, it was great. For the first month or so. And then I found out that suddenly Apple expected everyone to have their NEW new OS if they wanted to be able to download anything whatsoever. And now you can't even find old 10.1.4 compatible versions...everyone just assumes you have hundreds of dollars to blow on whatever new thing Apple's released to render your old OS obsolete.

Re:obsoletism

[buzban]

Hey, if you're a student, Panther is $69. It's really not that bad, and it's a helluva lot more reasonable than (even an upgrade to) new windows versions. Even more so when you consider that you actually get some new and useful features.

peace.

ROFL--MSFT stock down!

[buzban]

No one is going to read this, since this story is days old....but just in case:

dig the thing on dashboard! All the stocks in the ticker are up, except MSFT! I love it! Pixar, Amazon, Apple....everyone up except Microsoft! LOL!

Re:ROFL--MSFT stock down!

[Anonymous Coward]

It's even more amusing when you realize that since the time the screenshot was taken, AAPL has dropped more than 10 points and MSFT has skyrocketed 10 points.

Re:Naming Convention

[raju1kabir]

How desperate do you reckon they'll have to be before we see an OSX version named "flat-headed cat"?

Re:I would love it...

[Chuck Bucket]

this made me laugh out loud, thanks for it!

CB

Re:Licensing tsarkon reports Solaris rules FAG.

[shoeless_barney]

Sun has released a bunch of great technology, I know, use to work there. Nobody understands have the crap Sun releases because they never release anything users can grasp with the technology release. If you look at Core Image, and Core Video (OS X 10.4) and your not impressed, then your a frickin moron. Can Sun do that, does Sun have similiar if not better technology for the same applications. Yes stupid, but it doesn't matter. McNeally and Jobs.