Slashdot Mirror
Net Addiction Gets Finnish Soldiers Out Of Army
nerdb0t writes "Reuters is reporting that the Finnish Defense Forces have allowed some men to be excused from military service because of 'Internet Addiction.' The service period is 6 months - but that's too long away from the internet for these guys. Is this a joke? Is this a legitimate illness? Hm..where can I apply for disability..."
apparent b/c i got first post.. i must be addicted to the net or at least slash dot
http://brandonbloom.name
"If I can't get my daily dose of slashdot, I'll go crazy and kill some endangered animals" - Finnish soldier
www.google.com
Now I am am going to get locked up and forced to take medications. Please don't tell anyone.
Actually, they were not excused from military service, they were sent home and told to grow up and return in a few years for another try.
Seems to me six months on duty, away from the Internet, just might be the cure for this terrible illness.
does constantly hitting F5 on slashdot, 24/7 count?
-------
1. Enjoy your job
2. Make lots of money
3. Work within the law
Choose any two.
Im not sure if this is real but yea 6 months away would put me into a deep place of almost going insane
About two years ago I spent 2 months as a counselor at a summer camp, most of which time I had no internet access, and when I did have access it was minimal. I know this is a little pathetic, but I really felt like I was being deprived. I mean, I wasn't sick over it or anything, but it was something I genuinely missed and I was really bothered that I couldn't use it the way I was used to. That said, I don't really think that this is a legitimate sickness worthy of being discharged because of, it's really quite managable. The main way I dealt with it was reading a lot. Generally I don't read that often, but that summer I went through a few tens of books.
They don't get pardoned forever. It seems they got 'E' which means 'go home and grow a little'. So they need to come back and do their service 2-3 years later.
For record you can get 'E' just by requesting it, these guys were forced to 'E' due to addiction =)
(status of different letters in Finnish Defence Forces:
A - primary letter given to everyone, capable of active service
B - Some problem, maybe bad allergy or old injury
C - No service during peace time
D - No service (even if it's war time)
E - Service postponed )
Recall that about half the country is above the arctic circle, so cell phnes and computers are great when you can hop a reindeer to visit the next village over. They probably have more net addicts than Korea, since the Internet is an easy to stay in contact with people when it's -20 out.
They also have one of the highest rates of alchoholisim in Europe, and I wonder how many people get waivers for that each year.
But really, what self-respecting Army would pass on a soldier because he spent too much time practicing his BFG9000 skills...
HA! I just wasted some of your bandwidth with a frivolous sig!
The alternatives to that are:
- 13 months of civil service
- getting the conscription delayed long enough that you're too old for the army
- getting a certificate from the doctor that you have a disability that prevents you from going to the army
But delayed and told to come back later after couple of years. At least according to the local Finnish media.
(Totally crazy anyway. This is Finland for heavens sake, not some pansy-ass Sweden ;)
it's *slashdot* addiction - no way around it
Put them in a treatment program. Don't just let them go back and their computer.
-----
One is born into aristocracy, but mediocrity can only be achieved through hard work.
This is ridiculous. Unfortunately, the story is true. What's ridiculous is that the service doesn't mean 6 months of no net -- it just means you can't get on the net _as much as you might want to_. First, the Finnish army gives you three out of four weekends off, which means you get to go home (=on the net if you just have to get your fix) for the weekend and report back on Sunday evening. Second, most if not all garrisons have computers with Internet-connections that the conscripts can freely use during the evenings. And if you still can't handle it? Growing up is exactly what you need.
Sure this does mean I get to sue the arse off my boss if I'm fired for inappropriate use of company resources when I'm caught surfing pr0n at work, right? I mean he's discriminating against my disability! Shame on him!
These posts express my own personal views, not those of my employer
http://www.geocities.com/icaddict.geo/ (The Internet Chess Addict's Home).
-- Each tock of the Planck clock is a new world and here we are still life. --
I can identify with these soldiers. I once spent a month at a house with no internet access whatsoever. I had no idea what to do with myself in my spare time. I had my laptop with me and spent hours playing solitaire. I couldn't get my mind off the internet, and what must be happenning in my absence. I tried watching tv but I usually watch tv while browsing /., so it was no help. News papers weren't much better because I couldn't adjust the font size or get the perfect lighting of the computer monitor. I even went through pages I had available offline. I ended up just signing up for a month of dial-up connection, but it possibly made it worse because I had an old modem and was used to broadband. I had exactly the same sensations that I had while trying to give up cocaine (a habit from my young and stupid days), except there was no real physical sensations except those produced from nervousness.
_____
Thank you.
Military service is mandatory in Finland, and min. service time is 180 days, max. 362 days. You can also carry out the service as civil service (395 days) and in some cases as unarmed military service (330 days if I remember correctly).
www.mil.fi
Those that refuse to enter even civil service can be sentenced to (usually a minimum security) prison for 197 days (max.).
Man, if you could stay 2 months without net, you have no freakin' idea what you are talking about. No clue! Eight years ago I was supposed to spend two weeks without net with friends at a lake. Your typical summer holidays. I made it one week before hitchhiking over 600 miles back to "civilization". And that was 8 years ago. I know people who lost big bet that they could stay *one day* without cell phone. A "disconnect" is a serious problem for growing segment of population and net addiction is a real thing(tm).
If programs would be read like poetry, most programmers would be Vogons.
Atleast here in Norway (we have 12 months compulsary service), they have a tendency to decide who they want or doesn't want first, and if they want to get rid of you they'll accept next to any reasoning.
:)
My drafting was one of the few times in life i wish were fat, frail or had any disabilities
"" How about taking the safety labels off everything, and let the stupidity-problem solve itself? """
Um, let's see -- point at them and laugh?
As a Finnish citizen I am very happy that our army sends these sissies home to grow up and is not trying to adjust the service easier for them. Our army is for self defence (not attacking poor people for some ;-) reason) and we really need good men (and women) to do the job.
http://reference.allrefer.com/encyclopedia/F/Finn
However, with this bullshit, you wonder how they would fair now...
Try to look like we're enjoying it so we dont have to do another take.
-In finland the army service is mandatorial.
:)
No no no, in Finland the army is _Mandalorian_
RsG
What's the point of doing service if it doesn't make you grow up? Actually, what does the Finnish army do?
>max. 362 days.
Do they have to import experienced officers?
-fb Everything not expressly forbidden is now mandatory.
I had a crappy connection with my laptop and gprs cellphone when i was doing my service (9 months), but I also could have been fine without them. I know no one who suffers/suffered from net addiction.
Who is John Galt?
Can I get disability and/or workmans comp for this malady?
You know that they make Nokia phones there, along with many other consumer goods. It is capitalism, but a form of capitalism wherein all citizens get more benefits from capitalism. Finland has a strong welfare state. Half of all Finns live in government owned housing.
eat shiat and bark at the moon
they only need to look back to the 90's (yah i know its hard to remember) when MOST people got their porn from magazines! God the 90s sucked...
You know, if Linus Torvalds can do it (He served in the Finnish army too, remember!) then any computer addict can. Suck it up and get a technical position, solider!
The Yasashii Syndicate ||
That's right -- ligitimate!
Check out the poll and submit your thoughts to their hi-tech CGI script, and you'll see for yourself:
Thank You For Filling Out This Form
Below is what you submitted to netaddic-data@netaddiction.com on Wednesday, August 4, 2004 at 02:12:49
Ligitimate_Mental_Disorder: No
Wait. I voted "no," so it's not ligitimate, but maybe it's still legitimate. I'm confused.
Aw, screw it -- I'm going to play some Doom3.
everything in moderation
Linus Torvalds, creator of Linux, performed a stint in the Finnish army. Why don't these geeks understand?
I'm probably at the karma cap. Mod up a funny troll instead, it lightens the mood
...and it has been happening for few years.
It's really not just their addiction that excuses them from serving their country.
I think the main reason is their lack of interest and ofcourse they are in a such a bad shape that it's impossible to manage the armyduties.
I mean that if you sit in front of your computer for 12 hours a day and then you suddenly have to wear 30-40 kilos backpack and told to march 10 kilometres.
/* If everybody would be like me the world would be much better place to be - at least in my mind. */
More like "not Finnish"
Neil is that you? Yeah yeah, it's me... Neil...
Boatloads of people are zombified by television and movies, at least these soldiers were (hopefully) doing something interactive online, and possibly learning useful stuff. I'd rather be addicted to something I can learn from, than television full of infomercials and Jerry Springer.
Tell the addicts about this stuff and they will sign up in a flash for the ultra-realistic first-person shooter immersion experience!
Do you or your partner snore? - Visit www.snoring.com.au
Just because it's related to computers (or perhaps "geeks") doesn't make it any less of a problem that needs to be dealt with.
AC comments get piped to
Umm, the conscripts serve 362 days at most. If you want to become an officer, you have several routes to choose from.
1. Go to the military academy (Officers)
2. School yourself in some civlian field and join later with your crendentials (i.e. electric engineers and the like) (Warrant officers)
3. Sign up after the army (NCOs).
It's entirely possible to make a career out of the army. Just because the conscription term is max. 362 days doesn't exclude anyone from staying longer as long as they work for the military.
The finnish just need to get a new research program like we have in the US, and these 'E' status soldiers will promptly be made into test subjects for the new internet enabled super suits.
then everyone gets to be happy.
This comment is fully compliant with RFC 527.
Slashdot took out a few soldiers. What service can't we deny?
"Derp de derp."
I'm only half Finnish, (the other half Dutch), and I already did my time in the Dutch army. *sighs* I lose out on both sides.
home
The Finnish army practices lying in the snow, waiting for enemies to take out with one shot of the rifle.
:)
If you want winter experience, learn from Finnish, Norwegian or Swedish soldiers.
When I served my time in the Army, in Harstad, Norway (look it up)in jan-jul '97 there was a snowfall record. 2,5-3 meters of snow in valleys and -15 to -35 Celsius was the norm.
Advantages: You learn to handle extreme cold. It's easy to dig trenches and to camouflage the tent.
Disadvantages: It's bloody cold. When you've had your 4 hours of sleep inbetween watches, the uniform is not frozen anymore, but it's still damp/wet. When you get outside everything turns to ice.
Super-duper-advantage: During watches I got to see the Hale-Bopp comet at night, in perfect sky conditions. With night vision goggles too, that was incredible (and quite green/white). I missed an attack on the base though, the enemy got first strike there...
Well, I guess they are Finnished!
those are girly men. It seems like the army just wanted to get rid of em
did you forget to take your meds?
Ah, so the US army invaded Afghanistan and Iraq to keep in practice! That explains everything!
This is me. Don't like it? That's unlucky.
Oh come on, we have to serve 2.5 years of compulsory military service here and myself being a net addict survived it. Although it was really painful thinking about all my MUD-mates questing without me, leaving me to fall behind in experience points and levels :(
Well, as Reuter's piece tells, 82% of Finnish men complete their military service. That's quite a high percentage and enough for a credible defense.
The internet IS like an addiction. I personally would go nuts without it - my mind just needs to be stimulated with the overabundant torrent of information... It gives us the ability to access anything, anywhere without much ado, and crutch or not, it gets pretty damn addictive - and is something the mind doesn't want to part with...
Take something as simple as a word dictionary. Are you more likely to page through a 600+ book or quickly pop onto www.m-w.com? Exactly... We get used to that. And when we get denied Internet, its almost like sensory deprivation - losing a sense of touch with the world...
Or maybe I just need to get some sleep...
P.S: BTW, great excuse to avoid the army...
Once upon a time I had a psychology professor who started talking about how hard it was growing up in a predominantly Finnish neighborhood in, as I recall, Gary, Indiana ( Gary, Indiana, Gary Indiana. . .oh, sorry), because the Finns hated Americans.
Someone in the class asked him, "If they hate Americans, why did the come here?"
The answer?
"Because they hate Russians even more."
KFG
Try out.
All finnish men have to do their military service, which is 180, 270 or 360 days. Usually men go to this service after "basic" schools, at the age of 18 or 19. The military service starts either july or the next january. This leaves you time, when you have nothing to do ( if you can't get a job ).
During this time some ppl get addicted to net. And it's not just the net, it's the hours. Pretty much every net addict has bizarre sleeping pattern. Usually you go on chatting/surfing/playing 15-24hours, and then get some sleep, when you get really really tired. You have no obligations to be awake at some given time.
One finnish news site said, that the biggest problem was adjusting to regular sleeping pattern, not the actual net addiction.
The first weeks in the army are ofcourse the worst. You are in a totally new enviroment, you don't know anyone, and you live in a single room with 8-12 other men. Lots of people keep yelling at you and bossing you around, and that makes people very stressed. During those first weeks, pretty much everyone wants to quit.
When you add sleep disorder to this, you pretty much are done for it. There's no way you can maintain your mental health and motivation.
I had no problems during my service time, but I know what those sleep disorders from too much computer using can do to you. It's total hell trying to live as a productive member of society, when you simply can't sleep during the nights. Almost screwed up my school because of that, but luckily I'm over it now.
But it still bugs me that sleeping 7-8 hours a night and spending 9 hours a day of your time to work, it leaves you so very little spare time. Atleast to compared to the situation where you had nothing else than spare time.
(Mind you, internet addiction was not my reason for not going to the army - my "work computer" during my service was a glorious Schneider 386SX with W3.11 and no net connection. But during my year I got exceedingly good in Solitaire. ;-)
Finland.
Finland, Finland, Finland.
The country where I want to be,
Pony trekking or camping,
Or just watching TV.
Finland, Finland, Finland,
It's the country for me.
Verse: You're so near to Russia,
So far from Japan.
Quite a long way from Cairo,
Lots of miles from Vietnam.
Chorus: Finland, Finland, Finland.
The country where I want to be,
Eating breakfast or dinner,
Or snack lunch in the hall.
Finland, Finland, Finland,
Finland has it all.
Verse: You're so sadly neglected,
And often ignored,
A poor second to Belgium,
When going abroad.
Chorus: Finland, Finland, Finland.
The country where I quite want to be,
Your mountains so lofty,
Your treetops so tall.
Finland, Finland, Finland,
Finland has it all.
Repeat: Finland, Finland, Finland.
The country where I quite want to be,
Your mountains so lofty,
Your treetops so tall.
Finland, Finland, Finland,
Finland has it all.
Fade: Finland has it all...
Putting syrup in coffee is some form of blasphemy.
I just heard a mention of this on the news. Someone was quoted as saying "for people who stay up all night playing computer games and don't have any friends, military service can be quite a shock."
I'd say such people need that kind of shock more than most.
"Oppression and harassment is a small price to pay to live in the land of the free." -- Montgomery Burns.
Armies must be constantly tested in the real world (that means wars) or they will not know what is effective
Indeed. Where would the US be if all those valuable naked human pyramid skills would become obsolete?
"I'm sorry I can't join the Army because I have to play Counterstrike."
I'm still trying to figure out what people mean by 'social skills' here.
... is to take your computer with you, that's what I did!
The official reason for having the computer was to use it in a music project (which we did) in the military band where I did my service. I know a few fellows who did the same thing, so I guess the point is to choose the place where you do your service carefully.
This is the military branch of the country that gave us the term "Finlandization," the process by which a portion of the country was ceded to the Soviets without them even asking for it
Faith: n. -- That human impulse that drives them to steal appliances when the power goes out
News at 11!
They get to go home and grow up... Give me a break, more like become more addicted to the net...
So how does this conversation go?...
'Ummm, I got a net problem so I can't serve...'
'Ummm... ok, go home and grow up, come back in two years when you get over it....'
'Dahhhhh right Louie, search da puddy tat.... Dahhhhhh...'
flinging poop since 1969
The Finnish performance in WW2 was mainly due to four factors. One, Stalin didn't send enough troops to the Finnish front so the Finnish army wasn't completely overrun. Two, the winter '39-'40 was very cold, even by Finnish standards, so the Soviet mechanical advantage was lost. Three, the Finnish army was very good in the use of artillery. Four, defending your homeland gives you some extra boost compared to simply invading some other country. I don't think that the "quality of the soldiers" was that much different.
:)
However, the recent studies have shown that most young Finnish people would jump to the arms if Finland were invaded, so I don't think this net addiction thing has any effect on that
I saw this same news at our local TV news too (I live in Finland). 6 months is the minimum these days. I did spend my own service during 1998 and I was there for 11 months, but I admit that I had my laptop and GSM-modem with me almost all the time (I was remote working from army).
:)
You can just imagine how our commanding officer was surprised when he opened the door into our tent and I was there surfing Internet in middle of the forest during my night shift by the fire. Laptop and GSM were powered from generator that we filled with fuel oil between 5-6 hours. Usually people were sleeping and that's why they were checking the tents during nights.
Does anyone other than me think that having a web site to combat net addiction is a little messed up? "Help, I've got net addiction, I need to spend less time online!" - "Oh, hey, there's this great web site that can help you with that, you want the URL?"
Isn't that sort of like having your Alcoholics Anonymous meeting in a bar?
Kai MacTane: Web developer for hire in San Francisco
I often wonder if the United States is headed for a general conscription.
Many other democratic countries have it, and arguably it's good for people. I often wonder how my life would have been changed by a term in the military.
And hey, since we're now fighting an endless war, it seems more likely than ever.
Intolerance for ambiguity is the mark of the authoritarian personality.
Wow!
This is the stupidest thing I have read in a while.
Killing people for practise?
Fighting a war for the sake of war?
I really truly hope there are not many who think this way. I didn't think anyone would. Then again, I'm young and naive. Alternatively (hopefully) parent was just trolling.
Bot Assisted Blogging
"But Sir, I know how to slashdot the enemy!"
Table-ized A.I.
Most developed countries that practise conscription (manditory military service for all or at least all male citizens) anymore don't do it to maintain a serious force. The face of warfare has changed, as the latest Gulf conflict really demonstrated, such that lots of cannon fodder with machine guns, which is about all conscripts are good for, can't hold a candle to technology. Well you can't have a conscript flying a plane or driving a tank, that takes a volunteer.
Doesn't mean it's worthless though. It's an "in case shit", to borrow a Chris Rock phrase, policy. Suppose someone was trying to invade Finland and NATO just wasn't able to send immediate help. Maybe it's WWIII or something. Whatever, just suppose. If everyone has had basic training, when you draft them it takes much less time to get them up to speed. You don't have to train them from scratch, or send them totally untrained against the enemy, you just give them a quick refresher and they can fight.
This goes double for countries with Finland that have, shall we say, inhospitable terrain.
Thing is, even if Finaland made every able citizen in their country serve in the military full time, they'd still not have a real military force to speak of only 1 million people and at conscript level abilityies. Never mind you'd destroy the economy doing that. So they don't, they have a small perminant military for the little things that need it, and then give everyone a little training, just in case.
Switzerland takes theis to the extreme, actually requiring all their households to have a government issued machine gun, which their citizens learn how to use during manditory military service. That combine with the terrain would make Switzerand an iron clad bitch to invade. That, and the finincal cooperation, were the two reasons the Nazis didn't invade.
It's not a real common practice these days, but it still works.
Maybe they spent a little too long staring at this:
policy analysis and political satire
The Finns also had their fair share of heros and one guy who can arguably claim the title of "Best Sniper Ever".
Granted, there are others, Zaitzev (and Koenig, who uh, lost) and Hathcock (perhaps a tie) that would be in the running, but I honestly don't think they would take first)
If you look up "hard-core motherfucker" in the dictionary, you should see a picture of Simo Häyhä
Simo, after he was shot in the face by an exploding bullet (a wound that took years to recover from) managed to find his rifle and killed the Soviet that had wounded him.
More info here.
1q2w3e4r5t6y7u8i9o0pqawsedrftgthyjukilo;p'azsxdcf
Maybe they have a shred of intellectual integrity and don't want to add to the on-going myth used to ostracize civilian servicemen that the civilian service is the easy way out for the ones "who can't take it". Civilian service is for ideological reasons, period. If a person is mentally or physically unfit for the army, they should not serve at all.
Besides, civilian service means seven extra months not studying properly, and having to endure the social stigma.
This is hilarious. The general mindset here in Finland is that to be a man, a person must serve in the army. Nobody ever bothers to mention what's so special in the Finnish gene base that causes Finnish males to be boys before they serve, be they 18 or 28.
This kind of thinking belittles real problems fresh recruits and young men are having - which have absolutely nothing to do with immaturity. Our glorious defence force, where the first thing a young soldier learns is how to avoid responsibility and doing stuff, is the bastion of immaturity here.
Doonesbury is coincidentally running a video game addiction series. See: http://www.doonesbury.com/strip/dailydose/index.ht ml?uc_full_date=20040802
http://www.doonesbury.com/strip/dailydose/index.ht ml?uc_full_date=20040803
http://www.doonesbury.com/strip/dailydose/index.ht ml?uc_full_date=20040804
Doonesbury is coincidentally running a video game addiction series. See:
. ht ml?uc_full_date=20040802o m/strip/dailydose/index.ht ml?uc_full_date=20040803o m/strip/dailydose/index.ht ml?uc_full_date=20040804
http://www.doonesbury.com/strip/dailydose/index
http://www.doonesbury.c
http://www.doonesbury.c
no text
So instead, why not place them in front of a computer (preferably with a limited, monitored net connection ;-) and let them do work? Civilian servicemen are free employees, whereas training a solider costs quite a bit. In Germany, where a more significant portion of the population opts for civilian service (not German myself so I don't have the exact figures), servicemen are quite valued because of the work they do.
Depends. I've had some friend succesfully study in open university at the same time, and not all service jobs are nine-to-five. It really depends on the job. As for the social stigma, IMHO it doesn't exist anymore. While it is true that some decades ago military service was nearly mandatory for high paying/excecutive jobs, society has changed ever since. Sure, the rednecks still exist, they're a global phenomenon. If you spend time with them I doubt you'd even concider anything else than the army. But most people are quite liberal nowadays.Addiction is not being able to stop doing something even if you want to. This dosn't have to be bad. It could be in a good way. What if a doctor was addicted to saving lives? Would you deem him as having something wrong that needs to be fixed? Of course not! Addiction can be good also.
I guess any country that gave birth to Linus Torvalds deserves a little leeway in issues relating to technology. I'm guessing, though, that in a few years they'll start declaring folks with internet addiction to be valuable to national security, and suddenly people will go from being rejected internet junkies to officers in the electronic warfare department.
*****
Dear Mary,
I yearn for you tragically,
A.T. Tappman, Chaplain, U.S. Army.
Unfortunately, some people seem to think they know better. Those people are morons.
Surely you mean "tourist attack"?
I'm not sure anybody has any ill will towards Finland today (except maybe Bill Gates, grin!). But the Finns have a history of their big neighbours visiting quite regularly.... (Russia, Sweden...)
Actually, the quality of soldiers was different, or rather the quality of the leadership. The Finns still had a lot of officers who had training and field experience from the old Imperial Russian army, but on the Russian side that talent had all been lost in the revolution, and even after that Stalin's purges had taken a heavy toll on the Red Army. Stalinism massively hurt almost everything important to any Soviet efforts, from science to the military, when the political leadership interfered with everything and replaced competent people with idiots that made bigger promises.
And...
Four, defending your homeland gives you some extra boost compared to simply invading some other country.
The Soviets had also expected there to be a lot of Finnish communists who would defect and greet the Red Army as some great liberator, but there weren't because the Soviets had already killed them. There had been a lot of communists in Finland, but most of them had moved to the Soviet Union (this was not a big deal for a Finnish communist: there were a lot of ethnic Finns living in the Soviet Union, so it was just the border between a capitalist bourgeois democracy and the great socialist wonderland) and the paranoid Soviets had, of course, executed almost all of them as spies or unreliables. (The rumors that not all was well in the wonderland then, naturally, contributed a lot to the Finnish will to fight; for the Finns, it was not just Finland that was at stake, but the fate of Finns as a people.)
Totalitarianism has a real habit of working against itself...
finnish army, i mean. was there for nine months. complete waste of my time.
What the **** we are going to do when the Russians come? :)
We'll offer them some coffee, let them play Tetris on our mobile phones and stick a 20 euro bill in their pockets if they promise to go home.
I mean, 20 euros ought to be enough for any Russian soldier...
I do see the reason why western countries protect their farming industry. It's nothing less than a matter of national security. If the world were plunged into some sort of third world war, then food production would be even equally as important as it was in WWII.
COWBOY: Tough break for Hand Job. He was all set to get shipped out on a medical.
JOKER: What was the matter with him?
COWBOY: He was jerkin' off ten times a day.
EIGHTBALL: It's no shit. At least ten times a day.
COWBOY: Last week he was sent down to Da Nang to see the Navy head shrinker, and the crazy fucker starts jerking off in the waiting room. Instant Section Eight. He was just waiting for his papers to clear division.
So, I guess the "net addiction" excuse isn't bad, comparatively, considering it cost me about 400 bucks in shrink's fees to get out of the Swiss army (like about 30% of their recruits every year, incidentally.)
Cole's Law: Thinly sliced cabbage
could parent be modded "Funny".
Let's also consider this, however; Jerry Pournelle (Byte)- I believe it was- pointed out the problem with outsourcing America's production of important stuff to countries like China.
I think he also used the example of production in Europe (e.g. what if production of XYZ is against a European law that says you can't produce XYZ if it is used for immoral purposes), but frankly, China is the main issue here, as they are far more likely to be America's enemies in a war, and they produce a mind-boggling quantity of.... everything, basically.
Now, if there was a problem with China, what sort of situation would America be in? Food is important, sure, but it's not the only consideration.
"Slashdot - News and Chat Sites Deviant". (Click "homepage" link above for details).
Kind of hard to believe huh?
Hollow words will burn and hollow men will burn.
Technically, a person can become addicted to anything.
There are two kinds of addiction. One is psychological, and the other is physiological. In other words, you can have a direct mental (emotional, whatever) dependence on something, or your body can be dependant on something. Sometimes a psychological addiction can cause physical withdrawl symptoms, too, and just because you're psychologically addicted doesn't mean there isn't a physical side effect/benefit.
People allow addictions to continue in their lives because they're an escape from the mundane details and unpleasant things about life that they don't like. Caffine, the Internet, sex, routine, alcohol, spending money, being dumb, smoking, singleness - people get addicted to all these things, because they help the person avoid having to think about the real issues of life.
~/ssh slashdot.org ssh: connect to host slashdot.org port 22: too many beers
Yep. 542 confirmed kills in 105 days...
Lesbian Nazi Hookers Abducted by UFOs and Forced Into Weight Loss Programs - -all next week on Town Talk.
Being a technical person and having served my 12 months in the Finnish army, I can say that the communications equipment we got to use were pretty interesting.
I mean, after wireless connectivity using 10-pound radios, sending encrypted text messages using 4 pound special devices and other technology that is rugged enough to survive even if the soldier doesn't, you really start to appreciate your 0.2 pound Nokia cellphone.
And usually these top-notch behemots ship in these handy 3x3x3 foot boxes you get to carry around in the forest. And don't get me started on the weather! Now wonder these younger nerds start to miss internet.
http://codeandlife.com
The Royal Marines are cool chaps. The base I was stationed at was housing British, Danish, German and American troops for winter training before the big Operation Whatever war game.
:)
:)
A week after first arriving (flying up half the country), I ended up in the base's hospital due to some crazy violent influenza (along with half the guys that came on the same plane as me) - 39,8C fever, runs and the works. During my two-week stay I made friends with a couple of Royal Marines. Nice folks, but as I said, bonkers. And they don't know how to ski very well
ObWeAreBestBragYouSuck: The local county "guerilla" home defense military "Heimevernet" had such a good combat record that they invited SAS troops to have a go at attacking the base. SAS lost
Eliminating world povery is also a matter of national security.
"Long run is a misleading guide to current affairs. In the long run we are all dead." (John Maynard Keynes)
I know I should have applied to more computer technological department in the FDF, but anyway I conscripted to the Guard Jaeger Regiment (in Finnish). It was in 1999 and even then they had internet connection conscripted could use.
Later on this year I was lecturing for some conscripted from Defence Forces Education Development Centre, they all had laptops given by the FDF and while I was teaching them I saw at least some of them running irssi thru ssh, the very same method I use to get on IRC when I'm at work. Too bad I wasn't able to see their channels so I couldn't join them later.
My father had been visiting the Education Development Centre when he worked for the same company that I do and he told me that it seems to be all candy and chocolate compared to normal service in fighting units. Of course if you ask from someone who has already served his 6/8/9/12 months then the service today is no match to the time when the temperature was 20 degrees below absolute zero and Adolf Hitler was a sensitive man compared to the sergeant that one time...
?SYNTAX ERROR
If a foreign Army did this they'd be *cough* Finnished [ducks for cover]
[% slash_sig_val.text %]
Because it's slavery and sexual discrimination?
Analogies don't equal equalities, they are merely somewhat analogous.
First of all, the story is probably just rubbish.
...unless you share the problem. Calling people "sissies who need to be sent home to grow up" is a typical symptom of such attitude problems.
These appear to be just careless personal opinions given by one redneck army commander. In the interview (as quoted for example in Iltalehti), he uses low-language words such as "dude" (jätkä) and "farting". He also belittles the actual medical statements made by doctors, which are often "panic disorder", "anxiety", etc.
These clues tell us what this article is probably about: the commander is just an example of people with severe attitude problems in the army. He simply over-generalizes a huge number of problems into a single cause, which he himself probably understands nothing about. Really, why do they let that sort of people even give such public statements?
Just read the interview and really think about what the commander says.
It's of course nice that some people have the mentality needed for the army, which requires "taking orders" and "setting limits" (as the commander says). Such mentality might not be ideal or even desired for much (although perhaps some) of the life outside the army.
But yes, I agree that those people who best fit in the military should go there, and do their job well. And not expect everybody else to be like them.
I wish I has moderating points now.
Moderating 101
Hm..where can I apply for disability...
Why, online of course.
-Dizzle
"I most likely AM so interested in myself."
Some of these people are likely to be using it just as an excuse, and if they get called back again in a few years they'll use another one until they have a family and then have a valid excuse... I know it's not Finland but I knew a guy from Sweden who got called up for their "compulsory" national service. He said that if you don't want to do it, all you had to do in the interview was say things like "I don't like people" and that they'd let you off, because you wouldn't be suitable in their eyes. So I get the impression it's just a formality thing and as long as not too many people are dodging out they're OK with it. Most people generally DO want to do it, it's not just Army work, it can be as a firefighter and things like that too.
Well one would think it was Bush backing the draft, but it is a bit of Subterfuge . .
S N0 0089:@@@L&summ2=m&i n/bdquery/z?d108:HR0 0163:
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What is going on is the Democrats put forth the two bills
to re-instate the draft . Senate Bill s.89 , House Bill H.R. 163
http://www.congress.gov/cgi-bin/bdquery/z?d108:
http://www.congress.gov/cgi-b
As another subtle bit of subterfuge they like to put Rep in front
of the authors names, making the less informed think these ppl
to be evil republicans, but it just means representative
If you check their names with their party affiliation you find they are Democrats . So military stupidity is not limited to Republicans
The draft is a bad idea . Ppl that do not want to fight make poor soldiers and it usually causes massive unrest . See "Kent State"
You want quality soldiers, pay them decent pay, and do not screw
them on their benefits like the government does now
See "Gulf War Syndrome" and the lies surrounding the hearings
In a perfect world we would not need a military, but if you
look around you will see we are SOOOO far from perfect that,
that day is a ways off . Peace is great, but who is buying ???
India's militarist overtures are geared towards Pakistan in
my humble opinion . They still follow the principle of
mutually assured destruction from the US/USSR cold war
They need to follow the steps of Reagan and Gorbachev and decide to put the insanity away
Even then it is not really over, the US/Russia still have nukes, just ALOT less of them
As long as there is Fear, Power, Greed, Hate, Envy, and Nationalism
there is going to be this militaristic desire for "defense"
or as Fundementalist Muslims feel a new Global religious crusade
to convert or kill the Infidels in a 25,000 mile, 360 degree
circumference
History shows the horror of war, but nobody has heeded the lesson
over thousands of years, closest was Tibet, and you see what it got them . The Dalai Lami is homeless more or less
Only Ghandi has defeated violence with peace because he understood
that if you make the situation financial worthless the british will just go away
North Korea did not sign for peace, they just have an Armistice
Technically, the war never ended . 51 years it has gone on
The good news is China is trying to convince North korea to
embrace the captilism and under cut the US thru manufacturing
like China is and to win the war financially
The bad news is the US will eventually manufacture nothing here
and after a generation of not doing it, even if we had to we
would have few ppl that knew how
China figured out they could beat us at our own game just like
the japanese did with their cars for "awhile" til tarrifs slowed
it abit and US automakers stopped making crap
That is why China wanted into the World Trade Org so bad , and
has been putting on a guise of being a good neighbor . Hide and watch
China plans to take Taiwan, and North Korea wants the south section
for itself, its not a matter of if, but when
When the middle east goes full tilt and we are stretched far too
thin, look for some or all of this to play out
Right now the war in Iraq is but a shadow of the killings fields
of Vietnam, but if we do not get out soon, it will be like that
or worse, and "some" ppl in Iran hope that happens
Peace !!!
Ex-MislTech
google "32 trillion offshore needs IRS attention"
From the USSR's point of view Finland is the gateway/blockade to the entire Nordic penninsula, which is the most obvious staging area for attacks on Britain and North-Western Europe available.
Additionally, western Norway is the nearest thing the USSR has to a defensible set of seaports usable in the depths of winter.
If WWIII isn't just an unlimited ICBM exchange (unliklely I know), then Finland is gonna get it in the neck in the first few minutes, purely for blocking the way into Norway and Sweden (or possibly for blocking the way into St Petersburg, it really depends who's on the offensive).
kartune85 : Incapable of reason, observation or learning. A kind of dim, drab, flightless parrot.
Quite. Organized farm lobbies in "western countries". Not just the USA. If this was the reason the USA is hated, then Europe would be hated equally.
Switzerland takes theis to the extreme, actually requiring all their households to have a government issued machine gun.
No, not all households. Only the active military have their gun (not machine-gun) at home. The peculiarity is that they are "active" until the age of 40 or something, going back to training for about 1 to 3 weeks every year, plus a few Saturdays going to shooting training.
That, and the finincal cooperation, were the two reasons the Nazis didn't invade.
I don't believe the miltary had anything to do with Switzerland not being invaded by Germany.
To put it simply: you don't attack your own bank.
BTW, the 2 countries which used to be poor and became rich after the World Wars are Switzerland and the US.
Totalitarianism has a real habit of working against itself...
How does one account for the popularity and prominence of the Communists in Finland after World War?
Althought recently in decline, in the last parliamentary elections, the Left Alliance, the successor to the Communist Party, got close to 10% of the vote. It had three members of the cabinets of the recent governments of Paavo Lipponen (1995-2003).
There have been ample alternatives on the left to a party so closely associated with a foreign invader. I suppose it's possible to get 10% of the voters to support any marginal party but the fact the Communists got positions in the government seems truly strange.
It seems as likely as Quisling getting a cabinet position in Norway.
"Internet addiction" is still not a recognized diagnosis in any part of the world, and certainly not in the U.S. To create a new diagnosis in the mental health field takes usually decades worth of solid research. "Internet addiction" has less than a decade's worth at this point, and only one or two solid studies that point to *something* (but what, exactly, is still not known because of the studies' methodological flaws).
It's too bad people take this hokum as real. Might as well start having "book addiction" and "TV addiction" and "communication addiction," because any normal activity, done too often, can then be termed an "addiction." For more reading on what's really going on with this diagnosis/disorder, check out my article at:
http://psychcentral.com/netaddiction/
Eliminating world povery is also a matter of national security.
Our "War on Poverty" in the US has had little success eliminating poverty in our own backyard... that said, American poverty is very different than poverty in a third world nation. The amazing thing is the attitude that prevails:
* Free Trade costs the US jobs!
* Free Trade SUXORS for the third world (no it doesn't! you can't go from hunter/gatherer economy to $20K/year avg income overnight, free trade is fairly intollerant of corruption and graft, too)
* The family farm must be protected! (this is a code for "we must subsidize our farmers so food is produced here"
* My god, we are sending our best jobs to Mexico/India/Singapore/etc...
What people fail to grasp is that people outside of Europe and North America have the same needs that we do. When NAFTA drove jobs to Mexico, it started a 100 year cycle where the worker in Mexico is in higher demand, will gain escalating skills and ultimately will see wages ballance with the industrialized world. It's just so easy to forget that those poor people in _________ country are people no different than you and I - they just were not fortunate enough to be born where opportunity exist.
I do believe, though that the solution to poverty is not debt. Taking a nation and making it pay 30% of the gdp to service loans is a sure way to cause poverty.
-- $G
You're going to vaporize in a puff of superheated radioactive carbon, calcides, iron and trace minerals, just like everybody else outside cheyenne mountain.
kartune85 : Incapable of reason, observation or learning. A kind of dim, drab, flightless parrot.
America is hated for its arrogance and its selfishness... if America and the West want to be loved...
I'm an American, and although I hardly support everything my government does, I don't see the point in 'being loved.'
Really, what fucking good would that do us? Are we in some kind of international popularity contest?
We should obviously keep on good terms with nations that share our values (ie, nations that are true allies and are of genuine use to us, and we to them), but for those who don't, why should we give a rat's ass if they like us or not?
France, for example, doesn't share our values at all, and make a point of supporting the opposite of whatever America's position is, just to try to take us down a notch. No principals except to oppose America. None.
Why should we give a fuck what they think?
Iran's mullah's think we're the great Satan and we should all die or submit to allah. Why the fuck would we ever think we could get those guys to love us? Why would we want to?
I could go on, but I'll just quote Machiavelli:
('fear' can also be read as 'respect')
Upon this a question arises: whether it is better to be loved than feared or feared than loved? It may be answered that one should wish to be both, but, because it is difficult to unite them in one person, it is much safer to be feared than loved, when, of the two, either must be dispensed with. Because this is to be asserted in general of men, that they are ungrateful, fickle, false, cowardly, covetous, and as long as you successed they are yours entirely; they will offer you their blood, property, life, and children, as is said above, when the need is far distant; but when it approaches they turn against you. And that prince who, relying entirely on their promises, has neglected other precautions, is ruined; because friendships that are obtained by payments, and not by nobility or greatness of mind, may indeed be earned, but they are not secured, and in time of need cannot be relied upon; and men have less scruple in offending one who is beloved than one who is feared, for love is preserved by the link of obligation which, owing to the baseness of men, is broken at every opportunity for their advantage; but fear preserved you by a dread of punishment which never fails.
Nevertheless a prince ought to inspire fear in such a way that, if he does not win love, he avoids hatred; because he can endure very well being feared whilst he is not hated, which will always be as long as he abstains from the property of his citizens and subjects and from their women.
Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms should be the name of a store, not a government agency.
The Finnish communists have never had really good relations with the Soviet communists. This was true both before and after the war. I'm no expert in the Finnish political history but AFAIK the ideology of the Finnish communists was much more socialist inclined than the Soviet one.
More to the point, the current Finnish Left Wing party is actually entirely socialist, not communist at all. Back in the '80s they could still have been called communists but this hasn't been true for more than a decade.
"But really, what self-respecting Army would pass on a soldier because he spent too much time practicing his BFG9000 skills"
.50 BMG rifle round. So whenever you're not camping, run around between the armour and quad damage spawn points. Remember: not only you'll be protected yourself, you're also denying the enemy the oportunity to pick those armour points for himself.
Ah, forget the BFG. There's more military stuff in these games.
1. Rocket and grenade jumps. If you don't shoot rockets at your own feet, you're a wuss and will get 0wn3d.
2. Bunny hopping. Forget that lame myth about taking cover and laying suppression fire. And only crouch or go prone when you aim. Real Men (TM) bunny-hop their way across the battlefield.
3. For that matter, suppression fire never works. Only headshots work. If you don't have a good headshot lined up, better not shoot at all.
4. Only sniper rifles win battles. Any automatic weapon has such a horrible spread, that it's useless beyond 50 ft. Even in 3 round bursts. (E.g., forget about using a LSW at the effective range the US army claims. It can't hit the broad side of a barn at a tenth of that range in any "realistic" game.)
5. Which is just as well, since moving around is just begging to get hit. The way to win a battle is to camp in a dark place with a sniper rifle. Bunny-hop your way to a good camping place ASAP, and stay put there until the battle ends.
6. No battle ever was won by artillery or tanks. And forget about air support: it's just a bunch of n00bs who camp the airstrip, but none of them can actually fly. They'll just crash back into the ground in 5 seconds flat anyway.
7. Reload often. In fact, reload after each shot, if you have a chance.
8. Vehicles are a mixed bag. They are either indestructible, in which case the only way to stop them is to headshot the people using them. Or they can be destroyed with a pistol or SMG too. It just takes longer. Be sure to ask in advance what kind of vehicles you'll be facing.
9. Memorize the layout of the map. Especially where the medkits, weapon and armour spawn points are. When under fire, run (or better yet: bunny-hop) to the nearest medkit spawn point. Only n00bs get killed because they don't know where the nearest medkit spawn point is.
10. For that matter, always stay armoured and buffed. A good kevlar vest can stop even a
11. Enemies always make loud noises when they run. Army boots must have cast iron soles, or something. With a good pair of headphones or a good 7.1 setup you can know in advance where everyone is on the map. Even in the middle of a machinegun fight.
12. Rifles and such tend to clip through walls and doors. Always be on the lookout for gun barrels and such sticking out of concrete walls. It means someone's on the other side. That may be your only forewarning.
13. If all else fails, don't sweat death too much. You'll just respawn and go at it again. Worst that can happen is that you have to wait a whole 2 minutes until the current round ends.
14. Just because you're dead, it doesn't mean you can't still help your team. If the game allows you to move around in "ghost mode", grab Team Speak or the phone and tell your team members where the enemies are.
15. Anyone who's too good at it, is probably cheating. In fact, I bet the USA used aimbots and wall-hacks in Iraq. If you scream and curse loud enough about it, you can get them banned by the admin. Beats actually trying to shoot them.
16. If your team is losing, switch teams. It's not your fault that they're a bunch of unskilled n00bs, and you don't want their incompetence to look bad on your score. Always join the winning team.
Etc.
A polar bear is a cartesian bear after a coordinate transform.
Puh-leeze yourself.
First of all Mika Hakkinen quit because he couldn't put up the pressure
Or because he got married, had a kid, and changed his priorities. This is also the guy who was nearly killed after one of the most horrific crashes post-Senna, but I guess you knew that.
And all the best talent in the US is going into NASCAR, which I hate, but that's where the money's at.
Are you talking globally? You do know that F1 is only eclipsed by the Olympics and the Word Cup (ie. Football, or what the world outside the US refers to as Football) in terms of TV audience and revenue.
There's more money in NASCAR?
Go NASCAR!
Drive fast, turn left!
And the way things are going, NASCAR is more likely to conquor the world than F1 is likely to conquor the US.
See above.
So get real here.
No, please - after you.
Information wants to be beer.
Just use the internet archive when you come back and you will miss nothing.
Compelled to join up?! I thought that was against international law, unless a country was actually at war. Beside which, it doesn't work ..... if you only accept people into the army who choose to join, then you have by definition excluded the unwilling -- who can be a huge handicap. A smart person especially, forced into the army against their own will, could be a formidable "enemy within". OK, they'd get court-martialled; but by then it's already too late.
In a combat situation, which would would you bet on: three up-for-it psychos who are there by choice and loving every minute -- or two dozen kids who all would rather be at home, playing computer games and smoking dope?
Je fume. Tu fumes. Nous fûmes!
Nope... better luck next time...
Talentloser Trottel
Taking a nation and making it pay 30% of the gdp to service loans is a sure way to cause poverty.
Yes. What's more, sudden influx of capital into a thirld world country can be detrimental for it. The reason is, governments in such countries are prone to spend the loans on capital-intensive investments, which do not create jobs and do not bring people out of poverty. With less money, the can create more jobs because they have to make labour-intensive investments.
"Long run is a misleading guide to current affairs. In the long run we are all dead." (John Maynard Keynes)
We're completely volunteer. In order to end up in the military here, you have to take yourself down to a recruiter's office, take a few tests, fill out a bunch of paperwork, and swear the enlistment oath in front of an officer.
Sure, we have selective service, but that hasn't been activiated since almost the vietnam war, and it isn't likely too.
Of course, my reaction was, "What, a military without internet access?"
Why can't they get it during off duty hours?
I don't read AC A human right
Err... what prominence? The countries where the communists were truly prominent after WWII ended up in the East bloc; Finland didn't.
Some communists were able to achieve some power immediately after the War with the help of some Soviet meddling, for example through the Allied Control Comission (which in Finland was almost completely made up of Soviet representatives - the other Allies had no demands for Finland), but they never managed to bring Finland to a revolution (and, unlike the communists in some other countries, they had less of an interest in a violent revolution that would've taken Finland into the Soviet Union). Some years after the war it was clear that the communists were no real political power.
There was, still, a rebound in radical leftism after the Continuation War. It's not so hard to explain at all. For example, most of the Finnish cultural elite had been extremely unhappy about fighting together with the Nazis and when the whole truth about them got out (during war time the anti-Nazi press had been silenced, so people didn't know that much about the Germans), they were absolutely shocked. It's not very surprising that many people felt the need to distance themselves from the Nazis as much as possible, even if it meant getting "closer" to the ideology of Finland's worst enemy.
Althought recently in decline, in the last parliamentary elections, the Left Alliance, the successor to the Communist Party, got close to 10% of the vote.
The Left Alliance isn't really "the successor to the Communist Party", but a successor to several leftist parties, the Communists being the most radical ones. The most radical parts of the Communist Party refused to join the Left Alliance and set up the Communist Party again (so there isn't a "successor" to it as such, it's just that almost all of the "ex"-communists joined the LA).
It would be silly to call the Left Alliance people "communists" (but IMHO still not at all silly to call them dumbasses :-)). The actual Communist Party is nothing but a joke today - Donald Duck and the female private organ probably get more votes than the communists.
Finns take the defense of their tiny country quite seriously! For those of you who may not remember, a quick refresher on one of history's most forgotten wars- The Winter War, 1939-1940.
;)
Soviet Russia sent 23 divisions (460,000 troops) and 2,000 tanks into Finland in an act of naked agression, seeking little more than land expansion. They were told not to stop until they reached Sweden. They were so sure of victory that one of their divisions had a military band complete with instruments for their victory performance in Helsinki, after which they would install a puppet government.
Finland, with a whopping population of 3.6 million, managed to field 160,000 troops.
The final result:
-The Soviets suffered 400,000 casualties
-Stalin suffered a humiliating defeat, and was forced to sign the "Peace Agreement" March 13 1940.
Finland lost 10% of it's land, but survived as a free independent country. The Soviet army was recalled in defeat, with Stalin nervous about developments elsewhere in Europe as Hitler's war machine spun up.
To this day, even with Perestroika, Glasnost, and the "collapse" of the Soviet Union, the citizens of the tightly culturally interconnected scandanavian countries (Norway, Sweden, Denmark, Finland, Iceland) maintain a deep mistrust of Russia and it's motives for -anything-.
Do NOT mock the Finish army!
THIS SPACE INTENTIONALLY LEFT BLANK.
Sure, ignore completely the fact that the Finnish soldiers were specifically *trained* for winter warfare! What is this "Stalin didn't send enough troops to the Finnish front" bullshit? There were almost ten russians to a finn in this conflict (suurin piirtein), so how the heck can you say that Stalin didn't send enough?
I am not a finn by birth, but dang, I get really riled up when someone tries to minimize the achievement of the finnish soldiers in WWII.
Expecially because of the fabricated motivations for the russian invasion - but this is another, long story.
Sigged!
It looks to me like Finland is trying to finesse the matter by having a draft on paper (because it "egalitarian", or something) but making it easy to avoid (so that you don't have a bunch of shlubs who don't want to be there screwing up the professionalism of the army). I'm reminded of the US "don't ask don't tell" policy.
/. If the government wants us to respect the law, it should set a better example.
Something tells me he wanted his sig to be seen by ACs, and he forgot to turn it off. This is why SCO-bombing in your sig doesn't work, as Google is an AC.
It's pretty much related to 'not being blown up so often'.
Iran's mullah's think we're the great Satan and we should all die or submit to allah. Why the fuck would we ever think we could get those guys to love us? Why would we want to?
The mullahs are only as powerful as how much the people respect them. The more they will dislike you, the more likely they are to trust them and their Satan stuff instead of you.
Also the fact that Finnish troops had submachine guns vs Russian rifles might have been a factor.
Based on this photograph .
I would have thought -all- members of the finnish army were internet addicts.
It is said that they have to come back after 3 years. They're supposed to be more mature then.. :-)
Glad I'm not going into the army.
Sounds like the guy in John Steakley's " Armor". Physicist 'drafted' into the Army in the future. Good read, kind of on par with Forever War and Starship Troopers ( the book).
If it's not broken, let's fix it till it is.
*// I joined, did the time, got out...some parts I liked, some I hated, but I didnt have to be balls to the wall, all go no quit. It was just like any other job. Some of those ' two dozen kids' grew up before my eyes( I was 24 when I joined, so older than 98 percient of my platoon and co.) and it was cool to see the light come on.//*
If it's not broken, let's fix it till it is.
...prior to 1995.
~==>RocketSHE
I'm from South Korea and there is a mandatory service there. I'm not suprised since the Korean military is pretty shitty and they have to maintain rather a large army for a country that size due to North Korea.
1f u c4n r34d th1s u r34lly n33d t0 g37 l41d
Finland, Finland, Finland,
The country where I want to be,
Pony trekking or camping,
Or just watching TV.
Finland, Finland, Finland.
It's the country for me.
You're so near to Russia,
So far from Japan,
Quite a long way from Cairo,
Lots of miles from Vietnam.
Finland, Finland, Finland,
The country where I want to be,
Eating breakfast or dinner,
Or snack lunch in the hall.
Finland, Finland, Finland.
Finland has it all.
You're so sadly neglected
And often ignored,
A poor second to Belgium,
When going abroad.
Finland, Finland, Finland,
The country where I quite want to be,
Your mountains so lofty,
Your treetops so tall.
Finland, Finland, Finland.
Finland has it all.
Finland, Finland, Finland,
The country where I quite want to be,
Your mountains so lofty,
Your treetops so tall.
Finland, Finland, Finland.
Finland has it all.
Finland has it all.
Err... what prominence?
According to this site, the Communists were part of the ruling coalition starting in the 1950s and members of the party were in the cabinet from 1966 to 1982, including the Minister of the Interior at one point.
It's not very surprising that many people felt the need to distance themselves from the Nazis as much as possible, even if it meant getting "closer" to the ideology of Finland's worst enemy.
If ideology was the issue, the ideology of the Stalinists was hardly an alternative. In addition, during the Cold War, Finland engaged in some fancy diplomacy to fend off Soviet subversion and the threat of a Soviet invasion. It seem unlikely that those threats from allies of the local Communists would have made people more sympathetic.
It would be silly to call the Left Alliance people "communists"
According to this site:
In other European democracies, the Social Democrats almost always avoided alliances with the Communists. One would have thought that pattern would have applied even more so in Finland given the Communists' connection to Finland's worst enemy. Instead, one sees the Social Democrats in Finland forming coalitions fairly frequently without being punished by voters in subsequent elections.
Maybe if one lives in Finland it makes some kind of sense, like the alliance between liberal Republicans in the U.S.A. with white supremists in the South. However, from the outside it is highly incongruous.
Of course, my reaction was, "What, a military without internet access?" Why can't they get it during off duty hours?
We do, but there aren't enough computers for all of us. With 4 public computers for about 1000 conscripts, we don't get much time each. My 20 minutes are almost up. I guess I'll have to request permission to bring my own laptop and GPRS modem instead. B-)
yeah, I think the grandparent post is mistaken...
AFAIK in Finland you can either a) join the army for 6 months, or b) do community service for a year...
he's not Finnished yet.
bp
But mostly, above all, there would be determined finnish army with intention to fight off any invader.
;-)
And, if I recall my history correctly, it took about a million Russian troops to finally capture Finland in the second world war. This was a massive embarassment to Russia, as Finland was/is a small country in terms of population. Their miliary wasn't too impressive based on conventional military standards either.
I recall I read somewhere that this left an impression on the Nazis, and may have contributed to Hitler's 'Rotten House' theory ("Russia is a rotten house, just kick the door and the whole thing will come crashing down.") that ultimately lead Germany into an unwinnable conflict with Russia.
Never mess with a Finn
HA! I just wasted some of your bandwidth with a frivolous sig!
And let's not forget Stalin had purged some 80% of the Soviet officer corps for supposed disloyalty. An army with no leadership just can't deal with a complex tactical situation like that. Luckily (for the USSR) many of them were still alive in Siberian gulags and were restored to their positions when Germany attacked.
US contributes 'quite a lot of aid.' But you are right. There is nothing openly arrogant about anything done in Europe. After all, they are willing to criticise Israel on everything it does but are 'sensitive' enough to turn a blind eye to every other injustice that goes on in the world. The Spanish ellections where influenced by terrorist attacks. France is becoming a scary place to be if you are visibly religious (with both anti religous policy and hate crimes at an all time high). All in all, Europe is looking to become a 'United States of Europe' and I am not convinced that they will flex their power as a superpower any more responsibly then the US did.
It's almost as if this world we live in has countries that do thigns that are both good and bad. America is a big place. it does a lot of questionable things. it does a lot of bad things. and it does a lot of good things. same can be said of europe. I'm sick of everyone trying to pretend the world is a dicotomy and proclaiming everything evil or good. This isn't starwars. There is no 'good side'
And europe, like the US, has both some of the best music. And, like the US, Europe has some of the trashiest, cookie cutter music one can imagine.
The Neo-Bohemian Techno-Socialist
The service time is at it's shortest 6 months for crew. For some crew it will be 9(medics) months or 12(drivers) months. For every from corporal() up it will be 12 months.
:D - Even though I had to spend 12 months() I managed to spend the last 6 mostly in airconditioned office(5 comps, unlimited web, tv-card, fridge, sauna, gym, billiards table) developing web education and keeping servers running with 2 person crew. So the time off from net was not that long. :D
Every year about 10 % get sent home to grow up for few years before coming back. Point being that they didn't get off - just delayed.
Of course true player's got things under control
Well, obviously Stalin did not send enough troops to overrun Finnish defenses before the winter. AFAIK the Soviet army commanders asked for more troops but didn't get the reinforcements he wanted. And IMO had the winter been less severe the winter trained Finnish troops wouldn't have stood a chance against the mechanized Soviet army. Yes, the Finnish troops fought bravely (including both of my grandfathers and presumably both yours) but we were lucky not to lose. Part of that luck was of course the brilliance of the Finnish army in using tactics suitable for the harsh winter.
But this is just me, I'm just another Finn and definitely no WWII expert.
In Soviet Russia, Internet addict YOU!
I don't much about the Finnish society, but I guess they have the same kind of illnesses for geeks/nerds, as the rest of the Nordic countries (or world?):
;)
- Internet Addiction, which were compared to Gambling Addiction in Denmark around year 2000 by many scientists. Mostly that people _need_ to check their email before they pursuit their "life". Also gamers have been in target (ofcourse, blame the lamers).
- "Mousearm", which is a longterm illness, where your lower arm feels swollen up after heavy use. I have the believe though that is because of "wrong use" (most elderly women complains).
- Lack of D-vitamin, because it is mainly given from the sun (which no geek ever sees
Most of these illnesses just sound like another way for the medical/ergonomics-companies to make even more money.
(yes this can be compared with sex)
and other websites like stumbleupon etc. for inflicting this horrible illness on me? And not displaying any warning labels? Think about all the productive time I've lost; and how much more money I would make nowadays if I hadn't been fired from two jobs for spending all day browsing...
Switzerland did not get invaded because of their tunnels. The threathened that if the germans invaded, they would bomb the tunnels, thereby closing the valuable transport lines that pass through Switzerland.
So they can't go wireless?
Crisis is the rule, not the exception.
Seriously, everything you found interesting is covered in basic Boy Scout material minus being a conscript. (Do you get paid?)
First thing to come to mind
To understand the mandatory of Finnish army you would have to konw the history of Finland. Finland has been a battleground of Sweden and Russia for past(almost) thousend years. We konw that we have enemies and we know what we might lose by not having an army. Most of the finnish males are glad to join the army and do their part to support the independancy that we have now.
I used my time there to join telecommunications sections of army and learned a lot of what I think is important. These game/interned addicts really don't have anything in common with a geek, they are just lazy ass, want it all for free freeks, who know nothing.
Few years back Amnesty made a report that Finland was using children as soldiers, but it seems that the now you have to be 18 to join army(used to be 17). Now it is pretty much 'optional' to join the army, but anyone who knows who we have as our neighbour knows what needs to be done to have country called Finland.
In Norway the military first-time service is 9-12 months (6 for the Home Guard "minutemen"), and civilian service (working for a kindergarten, a peace organisation, etc.) is 18 months.
The longer civilian service is not punishment. The extra 6-12 months are served instead of the regular military repetition exercises that you get called in for. And last, but not least, after civil service you won't be forced to defend your country if there's ever a war.
If you don't want to learn to kill people you can do civil service, do un-armed service in the military, or you can take your chances on
Finland recently shortened the military first-time service. If the total service was reduced by the same percent, then the civilian service should be shortened accordingly. Except of course, that part of the shortening of Finnish military service is caused by less leave for the soldiers and "more intensive training".
Irene KHAAAAAAN!
The money Israel gets from the USA must be all spent on armament bought from the USA - it returns home, so to say. Even when there are better Israeli products (this was the case with some fighter planes etc.) for the job, the US-made one has to be taken. But wait, that's not all: the amount of money Israel receives is still less than the combined monies going to egypt, UAE and S.Arabia. Those monies have to be also spent on armament purchased by USA, with some exceptions, like the Abrams tanks co-produced in Egypt (here egypt has an edge, as the Uranium-cladded Abrams are not matched by the Israeli Merkava tank (which is still a very fine machine).
Note also, that Israel has been attacked several times in the past, by it's Arab neighbors, and even without US help (sometimes very explicit non-help, thanks to Kissinger's illusion that an Israeli defeat ategypt's hands would bring peace to the middle east - luckily, the oldfart was wrong) the IDF managed to defend the country, sometimes gaining vast amounts of land in counter-strike.
So, my opinion is that the IDF did manage quite well witout the damned US money, and I feel that it still could do that - IF the US didn't give even more money to Israel's traditional enemies. It's all a ploy to keep the region in arms, and American arms at that. Excellent for the US industry.
Sorry for sounding so cynical, and bitter.
Sigged!
Didn't get me out of the military though. However flat feet got me kicked out.
That was one of the first things my Dr wrote down in her notebook about me. Then again, were I extremely into books she wouldn't have written anything except maybe 'needs more exercise'. :P
Oh and um, she thinks I'm posessed by a demon - but she won't write that down cause it wouldn't look good at a medical tribunal
i'm adicted to TV. some hours without it in school is too much for me. That's why i made all those typos
also, i don't sleep more then a comercial break.
You are right, excepting the costs of corruption.
If Mexico's government remains as completely corrupt as it is, there is little hope that the population will be able to follow that nice upward spiral -- the government could simply steal all of the gains.
As it stands, most of the "economic growth" in Mexico is the shipping of money (usually physical bills -- US paper currency) from immigrants (legal and otherwise) to family in Mexico.
However, a more educated populace *is* more likely to demand (and get) a less corrupt leadership.
---
As for ancestor's whine about Bush... STFU! you have no idea what you are talking about... recall Clinton's firing cruise missiles on Iraq? Remember why that happened? (Other than the Monica Lewinsky thing... there actually was a second reason). Fact check before you post that kind of drivel, eh?
Thanks
</RANT>
-- Fareq
Personally, I might be said to be addicted to the internet since I'm pretty much always on it. On the other hand, that's probably because it's just about the only thing to do around here. When I don't have and internet connection available to me, I find myself actually finding other things to do. And another issue to bring up, the only things I really missed while I was away at bootcamp for 3 months, was my tobacco products and alcohol, while I did really miss my news and whatnot, I didn't have all that much of a problem leaving it behind. It's my opinion that these individuals only wanted to get out of military service, and not spend their year in prison (as is Finnish law, mandatory service, a beautiful thing if you ask me, but Uncle Sam didn't). In my day I've heard some pretty bad excuses to get out of/avoid going into military service, and this is really about one of the crappiest ones yet.
-- Napalm sticks to kids.
I would point out that even that doesn't 'keep people honest' (though I wish it did) Germany had conscription, but it didn't stop them starting two World Wars in Europe. But then why should we expect it to - volunteer soldiers have the same level of ethics too, they are normal people just like you and me. There are countless wars started by countries with conscription forces (most countries with conscription are generally dictatorships or less than 'modern democracies' too).
And it's way off topic, but as much as I dislike lying weasels for heads of state (like Bush and Blair) I see nothing wrong with pushing 'ideological interests' and bringing them to brutal dictatorships responsible for the deaths of over 2 million people (against which, casualties in the conflict in Iraq are incomparable). I'd give my life tomorrow to turn Iran into a state with an elected, secular system of government, or to kick Kim Chong-il out of North Korea and re-unite it with the South.
I have no interest in bringing 'Christianity' to Muslim states (I'm an Atheist, the lot of them can get stuffed IMO) but secularism, freedom (including the freedom not to fight) and a semblance of democracy I want to bring to the world, yes. That doesn't mean i think all countries should have the same laws or values, if some nations want to outlaw tobacco or alcohol that's fine with me. If they want to instigate life sentences for drug trafficking, or alternatively legalise drugs, that's fine with me too. If they want to treat women as property and stone people to death that's not fine with me, and your too right I want to impose that ethical code.
I don't think the Finnish system of national service, under-which they would have locked Gandhi up as a criminal, is remotely acceptable. Britain recognised conscientious objectors in the 1600's, for Finland not to recognise such a right in the 21st century is barbaric. It is the only EU-member state with prisoners of conscience (people imprisoned for political views), and there some pretty dubious recent applicants to the EU, but still none of them have prisoners of conscience.
I think they should reform, or be kicked out of the EU for still having prisoners of conscience, I'm sure it will all end in a Human Rights case and they will change, just like France, Spain, Holland and others have ended national service in the last 10 years (almost half a decade after we ended it in the UK). It's simply inevible as people add up the cost of it, let alone address the human rights issues. Did you know it costs Finland over 2 Million Euro each year to keep these people in Jail too? Even if you don't give a damn about human rights, if you can do the maths you can see it doesn't make sense.
Oh and did I mention that Jehova's Witnesses are curiously exempt from having to do national service in Finland? They have a powerful lobby group you see.
Of course, the president has the legal power to excuse all prisoners of conscience from their 6 and 1/2 months of jail time, but she's personally chooses not to. But then, as a women she's never had to do it because they don't conscript women.
The system stinks and is rotten to the core. It's quite indefensible.
With the 1960s antiwar movement in the United States, conscripts dieing for ideological and political reasons related to foreign policy became unpalatable to the American public.
Wrong. People dieing for what they regard as wrong reasons (and in a futile conflict) is unpalatable to the American public, they (like me, and I am not an American) will still strongly support military action for ideological and political reasons if it seems justified. Just like the Americans did in Bosnia, where they stepped in and stopped mass genocide, on another continent thousands of miles away (where there was certainly no 'oil' to 'steal').
Don't you support that kind of action?
Oh yeah, this is my next excuse for jury duty.
"Mandatorial!?" You sure your name's not Bush?
"It's not how many people I've killed - it's how I get along with the ones that are still alive."
volunteer soldiers have the same level of ethics too, they are normal people just like you and me.
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...If they want to treat women as property and stone people to death that's not fine with me, and your too right I want to impose that ethical code.
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Such as Lynndie England ? Somehow I think that the weirdest fanatics are always volunteers.
There are countless wars started by countries with conscription forces
More than countries with paid forces ? Link maybe?
I see nothing wrong with pushing 'ideological interests' and bringing them to brutal dictatorships responsible for the deaths of over 2 million people (against which, casualties in the conflict in Iraq are incomparable).
You say attacking Iraq was The Right Thing ?
I have no interest in bringing 'Christianity' to Muslim states
Agreed. Our "God" may not be better than theirs.
That doesn't mean i think all countries should have the same laws or values, if some nations want to outlaw tobacco or alcohol that's fine with me.
I don't think the Finnish system of national service, under-which they would have locked Gandhi up as a criminal, is remotely acceptable.
You don's see any contradiction here ?
I think they should reform, or be kicked out of the EU for still having prisoners of conscience,
Stoning women is acceptable, but making army compulsory isn't ?
The system stinks and is rotten to the core. It's quite indefensible.
It has been set up through a democratic process and still apparently has majority of Finns on its side.