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MST3K Rightsholders Sue Over Theater Commentary
An anonymous reader writes "How can people who parody people sue people who parody them?
Mr. Sinus is being sued by Best Brains Inc. the owners of the rights to Mystery Science Theatre 3000 because they are using a name/format that is too similar to their own.
Here is the story." Evil thought: Apple should include a "three silhouettes yakking on merged soundtrack" mode in iMovie.
That's an easy one. Because the people who are being sued are not parodying them. They're blatantly using the MST3k formula. At one point they even called the show "Mister Sinus Theater 3000." They also tried to license rights to MST3k. They knew what they were doing. Duh.
Now, can we get back to feeling sorry for people that steal music please?
First Post!
Silhouette #1: "Yeah, how pathetic. Slashdot loser."
Does this mean that Disney licensed the MST3K parody commentary bit for their DVD's commentary track on Muppets From Space?
Presentations of Mr. Sinus, which was previously known as Mr. Sinus Theater 3000, have Pollet, Egerton and Erler sitting in the cinema's front row, poking fun at chosen movies by making silly comments and signing songs.
I have to say that in this case, I agree that the big corporation is probably in the right. Three guys trying to cash in on MST3K fame, literally using the same acronym and doing the exact same thing, heckling bad movies. They're not making fun of MST3K, they're just ripping off their format.
While I would certainly watch, and probably laugh heartily, methinks they might lose this one.
Alamo Drafthouse approached us maybe about a year ago about licensing Mr. Sinus
This is interesting because the Drafthouse apparently saw the similarity and tried to nip it in the bud (a.k.a. cover their ass) with a license, but is still presenting the group and allowing them to continue with the same format/name.
Narrator: "The Screaming Skull" is a motion picture that reaches its climax in shocking horror.
...But we cut that.
Mike Nelson:
Narrator: This climax is so terrifying that it may have an unforeseen effect. It may kill you.
Tom Servo: If you watch it in front of a moving bus.
I watched C-beams glitter in the dark near the Tannhauser gate.
That format would be sitting in a theater and making fun of a bad movie? Guess they better start suing most groups of teenagers I've ever seen at a movie
i think it's fair enough that he doesn't want them to use the Mystery Science Theatre 3000 name since it's more adult themed than MST3K is. I wouldn't mind showing MST3K to pretty much any kid, so their recalcitrance to license it seems completely reasonable. There's no patent on commenting on movies (yet) so the austin people should just change their schtik a little.
Mallon says Best Brains declined the licensing, but that Alamo and the comedians did not want to stop using the "Mystery Science Theater 3000" likeness.
"We just want them to stop using our name," he says.
Nice write-up. NOT!
Evil thought: Apple should include a "three silhouettes yakking on merged soundtrack" mode in iMovie.
That would probably be fine, as long as they didn't call it "Merged Silhouettes Theatre 3000" or MST3K for short.
Didn't MST3K pretty much steal this idea from Rocky Horror Picture Show. Freaks have been singing and wisecracking to that for about 30 years.
Live performances are free from copyrights / trademarks. You have no further to look than all the schlocky tribute bands that perform Beatles, Judas Priest, and Black Sabbath covers. No licensing / royaltees are required for live performances.
Michael Jackson is in serious debt right now. If there were a possibility that he could sue anyone who did the moonwalk, he'd have whole different set of lawyers aimed on this front.
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...if these Austinites consistently make fun of Renaissance Festivals.
"People" using "unnecessary" quotes should be "shot".
These guys are the best...I've seen them abuse Masters of the Universe, Dirty Dancing, and Top Gun. The Xmas Clip Show is supposed to be INSANE. I always have wondered how they manage to get away with the name in this litigious age, though. It seems not even comedy is safe from stupidity.
Ceci n'est pas un post.
I don't think they're parodying a parody, they're just flat out ripping off someone elses parody.
Having seen two Mr. Sinus shows, I gotta say this seems bogus to me. What business are they losing here, exactly? People are going to spend money to go to a Mr. Sinus show instead of paying for and old episode of MST3K on DVD? Yeah, right.
If they used robots, or filmed it, or if the show were still being made (or even aired on TV), BBI may have a leg to stand on, but it seems to me they're just trying to cash in on some good fans here.
Probably none, including the person who posted the article, and the people who approved it.
They deliberately used the name of the show (the acronym) and approached the owners for the rights. They weren't doing a parody of the show format, they were attempting to capitalize on it.
Not the same thing as just doing a commentary, or even a Rocky Horror Picture Show type presentation (which let's face it, is what MST3K rips off in the first place to some extent).
ChuckyG
They should just call it Austin Theater and leave it at that. It was their instance on keeping the MST3k name that got Best Brains angry. The name "Mister Sinus" is obscure enough to cause confusion to anyone who didn't get the MST3K reference, which would be unnecessary unless they were just trying to drum up publicity. Oh, wait...
Mr. Sinus and Mystery Science are one syllable and a slight intonation apart from each other - pronounce both names out loud, the names of the groups are almost identical. If you're going to almost exactly steal someone's idea, don't do it like these guys did. If the guys who made Mister Sinus don't get their asses kicked in court, something's wrong with copyright law.
Mr. Sinus is done at 9pm to midnight on Friday and Satuday nights... in the Club district... in a drafthouse.
Ain't nobody taking their kids there by accident.
--Rob
...I'd understand this. Does this mean that Best Brains has plans for the future?! God, I hope so!
"...Well, there's egg and bacon; egg sausage and bacon; egg and spam; egg bacon and spam; egg bacon sausage and spam..."
It's not that difficult to do your own take on the mocking movies. They're trying to piggyback on the good will towards the real MST3K.
Okay, I followed it quite nicely when the name had the "theatre 3000" bit in there, and that could easily be a case for a trademark infringement. However, I got from the article that they removed that bit from the name. So, what are the suing based on then? You can't trademark a forumla, scientific or otherwise. Copyright it maybe, but even that I doubt.
"We just want them to stop using our name," he says.
Okay, those comedians are dumb for choosing such an obviously similar name. I have no sympathy for them; they should change it immediately. They could call themselves "Three Jackasses".
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well, whether it's legal or not, it certainly seems unethical.
It reminds me of the mid-nineties, when some company produced a sticker of the likeness of "Calvin" of the Calvin and Hobbes comic strips pissing on various logos. I found this to be an offense to the innocence and family appeal of the original comic strip character.
on a side note: It took me almost my entire last year at school, but I managed to download all of the Episodes of MST3K on eMule. Just in case any of you fans were wondering, All but about ten of the episodes are in public domain now. For details go here: To check what titles are legally downloadable go here:
I've never watch it the same way again.
The only one that sucked was Xanadu. That movie is so bad that even Mr. Sinus couldn't save it.
Oh, and they flew in the guy that played opposite ON-J for the screening. Boy, how bad does your career have to suck to actually take a gig appearing at show making fun of your only big movie?
--Rob
Seriously, though, I'm with Best Brains on this one. If you're going to rip off the MST3K format (*cough*BeavisandButthead*cough*), at least do something different with it (*cough*BeavisandButthead*cough* - oh, wait, I didn't need to cough that time). Even the name of this group is taking the piss! 'Mr Sinus Theater 3000'? What, do they call themselves Mick Napoleon, Blackbird R Tobor and Tim Smallmotor?
You must think in Russian.
This Mr. Sinus sounds too much like Mr. Show if you know what I'm saying. Monsieur Sinus or perhaps Generalissimo Sinus might be acceptable, but Mr. Sinus is right out.
But in this case "stealing music" means depriving the artist of revenue.
This is basically a case of abandonware. The Mr. Sinus Theater "trailer" that they show at the beginning of all of their performances explains that they started doing shows because Mystery Science Theater 3000 was discontinued.
When I first read the headline, "MST3K Rightsholders Sue Over Theater Commentary," I thought that perhaps Best Brains had decided to sue anyone who talked in the theater while a movie was being shown.
Kind of a shame, really -- they had the makings of a wonderful Class Action lawsuit against Obnoxious Yapping Assholes.
Let's just be honest. As I see it, Joel Hodgson and his pals were probably high on weed and/or acid and just getting back from a Rocky Horror viewing (where he performed as 'Riff-Raff'), when he had a revelation. Why not apply audience participation to an old, crappy movie?!
I'm not minimizing the effect of that revelation (I would NEVER have watched half of those, or even known of their existance otherwise), but like most great ideas, this concept started out in other similar forms. I'd be interesting to see what this guy does down in Texas. Is it a blatant copy, or something just different enough to be called, 'new'?
"...Well, there's egg and bacon; egg sausage and bacon; egg and spam; egg bacon and spam; egg bacon sausage and spam..."
Since WHEN did MST3K (which I loved) have a "copyright" over three people sitting in a theatre making fun of movies?
Mr. Sinus only vaguely sounds like Mystery Science and that is about as close as it gets. This is like suing a band named "The Bartles" because it sounded "pretty damn close" to the "The Beatles". Never mind the fact NO ONE would be confused.
At best, "Best Brains" only has the right to sue them if they are ripping off their material. Suing them for something that is vaguely similar only makes sense if you have no career, haven't had anything original for a decade and want to cash in on someone else's success...
Sorta' like SCO!
IANAL, but I've seen actors play them on TV
Article says it's "currently in reruns through January." Is this true?
True, the spirit of MST3K was always "reference" humor, it was amazing how many inside references they could get in one show.
The solution here seems pretty simple to me, drop the "Theater" from their name like they apparently dropped "3000" even earlier. Their web site is actually MrSinus.com, and it already refers to them primarily as "Mr. Sinus". I see no reason why that name would offend anyone affiliated with MST3K. Note that I am an Austinite, though I have only seen these guys perform once (Xanadu - shown in the parking lot of a skating rink with Michael Beck there in person and free roller skating after the movie).
Mr. Sinus vaguely follows the format of 3 individuals making fun of a movie. Making fun of movies in public has been done since, what, probably the 1890s? Another poster mentioned Rocky Horror.
Mr. Sinus uses no characters from MST3K. If MST3K thought the idea of making fun of movies was original, they should have filed a business method patent. So, MST3K's only real problem is a possible confusion of names, thus, Mr. Sinus' dropping the "Theatre 3000". Consequently, while Mr. Sinus is a partial tribute to MST3K, as is evident from their theme song, it doesn't violate any of MST3K's rights.
Frankly, I'm highly disappointed in Best Brains, Inc. Apparently, they're not using their namesake.
-l
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...the "Sinus" guys aren't even funny. Look at their site. Just a bunch of uncreative, aging, facemakers. Laugh, laugh, laugh, oh my aching sides. *rolls eyes*
How strange and scary!
Are they ripping of the format? I don't know, hell I don't care.
If the first stand up comedian would have patented his bit that would have set us back a few laughs. Wouldn't it.
Ever seen the amazing resemblance between Richard Pryor and Eddy Murphy's stand up bits? Ever seen the similarities between Dennis Leary and Bill Hicks? Ever really looked at Lenny Bruce and seen the groundwork for everything that came after that?
All entertainers start out by copying there idols. Only the good ones surpass them. Rarely is ever do they forgive them.
All this legislation crap makes me sick to my stomach. It used to be cool to be copied. It meant you were doing something GOOD, worth copying. Artist, programmers, writers, they wore it like a badge of recognition. Now they wine like little kids. Sad, sad, sad!!
...and Columbia/Tristar licenced it for their commentary track on the Ghostbusters DVD?
I kind of agree (with your disagreement)... MST3K was made in my home town and I've been a fan club member (#18624) since I was in 5th grade. My letter I wrote to join the club must have taken less than a few hours to get to Hopkins from Eden Prairie. So I instinctively want to side with Best Brains on this point... but I really can't.
I really wish they would consider this an homage and not be litigious about it... I don't think these Mr. Sinus people were intending to rip off Best Brains... and it's not like they're stealing income from them either with their local live show. It's cute.
For those who gripe about this being another big corporation squelching the little guy, you should know that last I heard, Best Brains was Jim Mallon (the producer of the show) and some office staff. They are the littlest of guys, and because of rights issues (which they respect), they can't distribute a good chunk of their own show's run. So protecting what little they have doesn't seem out of hand to me.
that they are suing over this, but have given their blessings to The Digital Archive Project which encodes and shares the shows that were not released commerically on DVD.
I remember a quote from Kevin Murphy(one of the few founding members of the show to stay with it the whole time) "Ideas are free my friend"
Monstar L
Me and my buddies at an early eighties midnight showing of Phantasm only with more puking and getting tossed.
Can you remember the days when you used to puke in public? Me neither.
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They're suing them not over the format, they're suing because they're calling it Mr. Sinus Theatre 3000.
Seems to me that's pretty clear cut. Change the name!
You were mistaken. Which is odd, since memory shouldn't be a problem for you
I like that idea (if they can do it in such a way as to not infringe on MST3Ks rights, whatever those might be).
It would be a great way to do MST3K-format parodies of regular high-budget films without infringing the copyright of those high-budget films - you would have to buy the original, then watch it with overlaid video and audio. It's even good for sales of the movie being parodied.
Can you imagine watching the march of the ents in The Two Towers, while silouettes of Radagast, the Gaffer, and Cirdan in the corner yell "Run, forest, run!*", or shouts of agreement when Frodo says "We're not even supposed to be here." in Osgiliath?
Can mplayer do this? Does mpeg allow transparency (though, if it's a sillouette, you could use white for transparent)?
*I'm not clever enough to have thought up this forrest gump reference myself, I read it in some random slashdot post long ago, but I thought it would illustrate the point quite well.
-jim
Seeing as how Mr. Sinus is local to Austin, most people here will never have seen it. However, the comments here are relaly harsh. Did they rip off the concept? Yes. Did they rip off the name? Yes. But to claim that MST3K should have exclusive rights to poking fun at a movie is absurd. These guys pay hommage to MST3K in their intro, the show is somewhat interactive, has a decent comedy routine in the middle, and is certainly original (they do lots of movies the MST3K guys would never touch) While I lived in Austin, I saw every Mr. Sinus show, and they are generally hillarious (Red Dawn was one of my personal favorites, the Village People Special was probably the worst of the bunch). They started doing the show after MST3K was pulled from the air. The show is mostly for adults, as there is almost always adult humor and language (The Christmas Specials bring this to an extreme). They are a comedy troupe doing original work in a stylistic format. And it is pretty damn funny.
They all have several heads in front of the screen. While I get sued?
its fun!
MST3k isnt suing because they are using the format, they are suing because they practicaly used the same name and then tried to make money. They knew exaclty what they were doing because they actualy tried to obtain licensing and mst3k rejected it because they did not like the way that mst3k would be portrayed. This isnt a parody of mst3k, its somone stealing the mst3k format and using it to make money.
If you RTFA it really seems like a clear cut case of copyright infringement. These guys in Austin aren't parodying MST3K, they're ripping it off and making money off of it. At the same time their humor isn't safe for most of the family as MST3K is, so the Best Brains do have a legitimate worry that the Mr. Sinus guys could affect their image. Look, just because one company is suing another over copyright infingement it doesn't automaticly mean that they're an evil oppressive money grubbing corporation. They have a genuine case here.
Until right now, I didn't know anything about Mister Sinus. Now I do. Perhaps that was the intention all along. Hey, it worked for Lindows...
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Now, whether a trademark judge would agree with me is another question; certainly cases like this have been won by the original trademark holder, even in cases where the parody is even more blatant. Personally I think trademark law should not be used at all to stifle free expression whether in the form of parody or criticism; to me it should only be a remedy in cases where the attempt to deceive and steal markets is obviously the main point of the trademark violation.
Yes, Mr. Sinus (AKA Mr. Sinus Theater 3000) is obviously a rip-off of MST3K. No mistake there.
But MST3K is over. It's cancelled. The sets and props were sold off and the cast has moved on to other things. (So what does Best Brains do now anyways?)
MST3K was my favorite TV show and probably a favorite of many Slashdot readers. It's become a part of geek culture. Mr. Sinus is continuing the spirit of MST3K. Best Brains should be flatterred to see their creation live on in some form or another... (The article only quotes BB owner, Jim Mallon. What does the rest of the former MST3K crew think?)
Is Mr. Sinus degrading the whole MST3K experience? Are MST3K fans any less likely to buy the DVDs? (So much for "Keep Circulating The Tapes") If Best Brains ever does revive MST3K, will people be less interested in it? If anything, Mr. Sinus might just revive interest in MST3K and expose it to people who never saw it when it was on TV. It could create more demand for the DVDs and MST3K merchandise.
But instead Best Brains rather take their influence on our culture and box it up and keep it in a warehouse under close guard, less it escape into the wild.
This is pathetic. As Crow might say, "Bite Me, Best Brains!"
Need I say more?
I am a diehard fan of the Mr. Sinus Guys and have seen most of the movies they have shown since 2001. I have to say that I think these guys are hilarious.
I do remember back before the "3000" was dropped from their name they used to have a little intro movie before their show started. It referred how MST3K had gone off the air and made out like the 3 comedians were bummed about it and thus started this show. It even had a little montage of them trying to make their own robot friends like in MST3K out of household objects like a telephone. It made them look somewhat analogous to a tribute band than someone trying to cash in. That being said you never know what will happen during sequences when the movie is not going, especially if you go to the late show after the comics have had a few beers. I think think that is the main problem the MST3K people had with the show (at their Christmas show which I've been to 3 times, there are cuts of christmas themed porn spliced in with other less offensive stuff like "a star wars christmas") Anyway while I think the MST3k people might be right to be concerned I hope they come to some agreement because I'd like to see these guys go on performing.
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Quotes of importance here - before you crazy folks that think that anyone trying to protect anything is 'bad'...
"Alamo Drafthouse approached us maybe about a year ago about licensing Mr. Sinus," Mallon says.
--- So they were aware that they could be infringing in the first place
"We just want them to stop using our name," he says.
--- There's the point. Change the name - can't be that difficult.
But I am going to side with the comedians on this one.
Why?
Because MST3k has nothing to defend, as THEY HAVNT MADE ANY NEW ONES IN FIVE YEARS!
Snarky comments on movies isnt an original idea. Honestly. Maybe if they continued making new episodes, then I would feel some compassion.
Its like bands that break up or die out, still profiting from record sales. But why? They arnt making any new records! (you can make the same argument for movies and videogames too)
no
Geez, did I miss the note in the article blurb where it tells us which side we should take on this.
The guys already dropped "Theatre 3000" from their name. I haven't been to a show in a while so I don't know if they modified their opening which included "Theatre 3000" in their name. And this is all over a show that is in re-run purgatory.
Besides, how can you be upset at these guys? They actually made Crossroads into a wonderful experience.
-prator
Svengoolie, a.k.a. Son of Svengoolie has been doing this (minus the silhoettes) for years, maybe decades now. And I even got a glow in the dark T-shirt.
"I see a little silhouette of a man..."
...there are a few Brains that are going, "Goddammit I'd love to get the rights to Dirty Dancing."
btw, in case you didn't realize it, Nobody puts Baby in a corner.
nobody here takes their kids to the drafthouse downtown, on friday and saturday night. There are far worse things right outside the door, namely puddles of piss and spilled beer from the homeless drunks asking you for spare change.
Its a essentially a pub that shows movies (or a theater that serves beer, depending on your viewpoint) You cant get in if you're under 18 (unless you're with a parent).
-
und watching a movie and making fun of it cause it's bad
i've done this countless times before and after this show was ever on the air and i'm sure that goes for millions if not billions of people worldwide.
i say this as having been a fan of the show (i still have many of their shorts and episodes laying around and the movie dvd which i had seen in the theatre)
why do people get to hold copyrights on things that aren't even in popular circulation anyway? just so they can gouge people? or is it more of a lets wait 20 years and make another few million on nostalagia mentality? how does this hurt their company in any way? I'd like to see them prove actual damages from this use of that name. It's a shame the American Justice system is such a laughable oxymoron, and getting worse daily thanks asscroft.
He says Mr. Sinus' lean toward adult-type humor goes against the spirit of MST3K.
Are you kidding me? Watching MST3K is where I learned what "Speedballing" was!
--fatboy
The group is not using their name or trademark. They are using a parody of it. And an obvious parody at that. I agree that MST3k should be protected from being confused with another product, but when the other product is obviously making fun of (and paying tribute to) the original through parody, the slight risk of confusion by people who are not that familiar with the original product to begin with should not be outweighed by the first amendment rights of the group creating the parody.
Mr. Sinus is funny as hell. They do adult comedy in the vein of MST3K. There are no silouettes on the screen and ,besides, they are much much funnier than the actual MST3K.
And how can they claim that Mr. Sinus is the same name as Mystery Science Theater 3000. They look different to me and one refers to a scientific mystery in a theater whereas the other refers to a guy named after a part of the human head, Mr. Sinus.
They named themselves "Mister Sinus Theater 3000" and do the same skit with adult humor.
Mister Sinus Theater 3000 sounds almost exactly like Mystery Science Theater 3000 when said out loud. No one is going to confuse Muppets in Space since they aren't similar to the trademark.
Shoot the lawyers. Most of this type of ridiculous lawsuits will disappear.
To protect the structure, he trademarked it in both title and structure.
No. You can't trademark ideas. You can patent them. But you can't trademark or copyright them. The name is another matter, and a legitimate trademark (as long as it is still in use).
MST3K is still in use, since they are still selling DVDs, and is a valid trademark.
They're still full of crap, however, in this case, as there is no chance of confusion over who is who.
Not that I actually know what I'm talkign about.
"He says Mr. Sinus' lean toward adult-type humor goes against the spirit of MST3K."
Erm... so the "Maybe this will jog your memory." line as Cal goes into the backseat of the car bit from the MST3K movie was intended for all viewers??
The sad part for Jerm et al. is that by this point, they're famous enough (at least around Austin) that they really don't need the name, but they're stuck with it now. I think if I was them I'd just change the name, but hey, who am I.
:[
Those guys are really, really funny. I was nervous the first time I went, because the formula has potential to super-suck, but they're nuts. I saw Mac and Me, Dirty Dancing, and the Christmas Show. The Christmas Show is 10 out of 10. The "Itchy" segment alone (Star Wars Xmas Special) is worth the price of admission.
On a related note, for locals, the "original" or "headquarters" Drafthouse location is going to have to move because the leaseholders want to tear that block down and build a highrise.
The players tried to take the field. The marching band refused to yield...
This is by far the best theater I have ever been to. They serve food and drinks, including alcohol, while you watch the movie.
Some of my best movie-watching experiences were at the drafthouse in Austin this summer. We went there to see Dodgeball, and before the movie they had a cage setup outside where they held a dodgeball tournament. Our technically inclined team got its butt kicked, but we had fun nonetheless.
They held a special pre-screening of Harold and Kumar go to White Castle. They had a road rally scavenger hunt where we listened to clues on a CD and had to visit places all over Austin and call in for more clues when we got there. The last place in the road rally was a secret location where they were screening the film.
We got all the White Castle burgers we could eat (not many, they're disgusting) and after the movie the stars and writers came on stage to answer questions and chat about the movie.
I heard they did a special screening of Open Water on Lake Travis where you watched the movie while dangling your legs in the water.
The Mr. Sinus stuff is clearly a trademark infringement, and it's meant to be. It's too bad that Best Brains won't let them use the name, because it is a pretty clever parody and has built up a pretty strong brand in Austin. To go to a Mr. Sinus show you have to order tickets online at least a day in advance. Hopefully they can change the name to something decent and keep the brand with something like "Sinus Live".
Thank you Mario! But our princess is in another castle!
and Touchstone studios for releasing 'Mr. 3000.' While were at it, Apple can sue Bernie for have a name even close to macintosh. It seems to me that copyright holders lose all common sense when they think they get their idea stolen!
Read the article. They aren't telling them to stop using the format, which renders all your points completely moot. They're telling them to stop using a name that assocaties their show with MST3K.
Don't label something "offtopic" unless you know the topic well enough to tell what's on topic.
The original post is flawed. No where in the article does there mention a defense of parody. It's assumed by the
I agree with you. The Top Gun sendup is hilarious. Also love their Terminator show and Britney Spears' Crossroads.
I am pretty certain this case will focus on the name issue and consumer confusion. That will be difficult. As for their act being damn near identical, I don't think you're being accurate here. They have different jokes, different characters, and different movies. They admit inspiration from the tv show, but that's not a trademark or copyright violation any more than Carrot Top can sue other prop comics who produce weird objects from a trunk and have people laugh.
Think about how many instances in the video game world where there are 'rip-offs' of successful concepts. There are countless imitations of the Space Invaders and Pac Man concepts. How about Phoenix and then later Pliedes? To violate intellectual property laws, you have to do more than lift a concept. A judge wants to see letter-for-letter, note-for-note copying of content. That's not present in the Mr. Sinus performance.
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"The guys doing this show sound like hacks."
"If I had to put money down, I'd Mr. Sinus are interested in dick/fart jokes and "racy" humor. But I haven't seen their show, so it's only speculation."
And I'd gladly take the money you'd put down. You are right on one thing - you're only speculating. Yes, the show does contain dick/fart jokes and "racy" humor, but the vast majority of the humor is inline with that of MST3k.
Did they rip off MST3k? Well, they most certainly used it as the foundation of their show. The cancelling of MST3k was the inspiration for putting on the first shows - which at the time wasn't very far off from your "college kids" analogy.
But dick and fart jokes? Well, if you knew about the drafthouse, you'd understand why the humor can be "racy." The drafthouse is more like a dinner theater than a movie theater. They removed every other row of seating, installed tables (more like a short bar) instead, and sell food, drinks and beer. You have to be at least 18 year old to be in the theater. (http://www.drafthouse.com/) So, it's an older audience than saturday morning on Sci-Fi. The humor can be, and in such a venue is even expected, to be dirtier and racier. However, the balance between blue and non-blue humor is very well done. The Mr. Sinus guys are much better than just "hacks."
Plus, Mr. Sinus takes on movies that MST3k wouldn't ever take on. MST3k basically stuck to B-movies in the Mystery or Sci-fi catagory. Dirty Dancing and Top Gun would fall into neither of those. And, as their theme song states: They can do shows with nudity.
The differences in venue and movie types is enough to give it a different feel than MST3k. It's half MST3k and half the local improv comedy club.
If you're ever in Austin, you need to catch a show. Also, they do shows in Houston from time to time (and San Antonio as well, I believe.)
My karma is in a nose dive
Verdict: Mr. Sinus kicks MST3K to the curb. No contest.
Regarding the lawsuit, Mr. Sinus is a LIVE show, and MST3K was taped and rebroadcast. This is enough of a difference to throw out any "stealing the format" argument. When MST3K goes live (and goes live in your neighborhood movie theater), then there may be overlap issues. Until then, these shows have two very different formats.
In the course of every project, it will become necessary to shoot the scientists and begin production.
Since MST3Ks idea to begin with is already about appropriating another art form and making fun of it and thereby making it their own expression, their actions are even less defensible. What if I watched an MST3k show making fun of "Tarzan" and I thought, gosh, that remake of Tarzan with the insane commentary by puppets was really lame; I am going to stop buying Tarzan products now? That is roughly analogous to what Best Brains is claiming here.
The theme of their comments, though, was to essentially make fun of the rumors that (Top Gun star) Tom Cruise is gay. Every chance they got to make fun of him being (rumored to be) gay they did. And to their credit, there's a lot of Top Gun that can be considered gay when you look at it that way (shower scenes, volleyball game, etc.).
The truly amusing part was that I went to go see it with a friend of mine who's gay. I figured for sure he'd be offended (especially since a lot of the crowd had derogatory gay comments to shout out) but he thought the whole thing was hilarious.
The thing about MST3K was that it had to stay with "safe" humor (for television) and it couldn't spend much to license movies. Mr. Sinus has those advantages - they can be as raunchy as they want to be and they can use any movie, in theory, since they don't have to pay rebroadcast rights. Of course, I'm not sure if they're getting any rights or even if they'd need to. That could be their next lawsuit. Funny that they don't get sued until QuakeCon gives them more exposure. I bet the exposure of this story gets them in trouble with the MPAA.
Schnapple
Mr. Sinus uses no characters from MST3K. If MST3K thought the idea of making fun of movies was original, they should have filed a business method patent.
Maybe that's why they're only suing for trademark infringement and not for anything else?
I swear, people really need to think about RTFA.
The entire problem here centers around the name (as in Trademark rather than copyright). If the group went by 'The Mr. Sinus Show' I don't think there would even be a problem.
I have all the respect in the world for the MST3K guys and I think they are completely in the right on this issue. They aren't asking the 'Mr. Sinus' people to stop. Just change their name.
"Is that Stud coming?"
---
IMHO, of course.
May the SOURCE be with you.
Disclaimer: I am a card carrying 'Mstie.'
Best Brains (the company behind MST3K) has always been extremely liberal about allowing others to use their likenesses and format without questioning. There are at least a half dozen different fan production groups that have episodes in circulation around America (I have copies of several.) As well, there are typically many MST3K related items on ebay (by storefront seller) which are using BBI's copyrighted and trademarked content to make a fast buck. Unlike certain people (THE FOX NETWORK), BBI has never shut down websites simply for having show related content.
Jim Mallon doesn't mind them using the format... it's been done many times... both for fan episodes and in commentary tracks on feature films (Ghostbusters, Muppets From Space, etc.) They just don't want them to use their name. Mister Sinus Theater 3000 is awfully damn familiar sounding, especially if one was listening on the radio and couldn't see their name printed out in an add. As well, the aycronym, MST3K, is the same.
;^)
They never did, and indeed they never claimed to. The case is about a trademark. RTFA.
I noticed a number of posts about how Best Brains is trying to control people making fun of movies and such, and it really isn't true. They actually seem to be pretty loose with what they let people do with the MST3K name. For example, at my school, there is a group that does MST3K showings every week, for free. BBI gave them permission to do this. This group also staged a live performance a while back where they made fun of a play. They even had robot models they had built of Tom and Crow, and people dressed up as the characters from the show and everything. BBI knew about and allowed this too.
The point is, they are not evil corporate types bent on enforcing their trademarks with an iron fist. They just don't wan't a random group of Texans using their name (basically) without permission for it and doing comedy that doesn't fit in with the original show. If these guys weren't ripping off the MST3K name/reputation, there'd be no problem.
I went out and actually PAID for that piece of shit "St Anger" and now I can't take the fucker back because it's been opened. Those fuckers'll get sympathy from me when I can return a POS cd and the false-advertising DVD that came with it. (The packagine says a dvd of a CONCERT of the entire album. It turned out to be a REHEARSAL, no audience, just the band and some cameras in a room, and the main singer guy doesn't sing one song in key.) Fuck them. They should download a copy of their own song that goes "Don't want your greed, don't wanit it-ah!"
Sorry for the offtopic rant, but contrast Best Brains and Metallica and you'll see the difference in both their business style and their ethics.
O~ Him that studies revenge keeps his own wounds green. -- Francis Bacon
iAgree.
Best Brains is not suing for their "parody format" and I don't think they can or should be allowed to. They are suing to protect the name only, which they think infringes on their trademarked name. I think they are wrong about that, but that is discussed elsewhere. They are not being ripped off in terms of the format, and in fact, I don't see why they can or should be. Making fun of movies is something people have done for a long time, and while I applaud Best Brains' cleverness in coming up with an easy way to do that on a TV show, I don't think they should be granted a monopoly on doing that. It's a form of expression, and I think the Sinus guys are using the name to recognize the inspiration they got from MST3k.
Come on, people in texas are not that stupid; even if it sounds alike, one is a method of testing hypotheses, the other is a part of your fucking head. Anybody discussing it can and likely would clear up the difference, to the titters and giggles of listeners when they noticed the clever sound-alike. I think Best Brains is well intentioned here but they are just wrong; nobody is going to confuse a local theater gag with their product based on the similar sounding names. They should be pleased and flattered that these guys are paying homage to them in this way.
So? You cannot sue someone for making fart jokes, even if they are making such jokes using a comedy format that you helped pioneer. In this case, they are only suing for trademark over the name, so it's really not relevant. They seem to think that the Sinus guys are dragging their good name in the mud but that's ridiculous since there is little risk of confusing these two.
Well, they'll have to go after the DVD Consortium and MPAA for essentially doing what MST3K did, albeit usually in a non-comedic fashion, on every DVD that has a commentary audio track overlay.
Now I understand why people complain about errors in the articles on /.
The lessons of history teach us - if they teach us anything - that nobody learns the lessons that history teaches us.
Didn't read the whole thread, but in case anyone else hasn't done it, here's the particulars of the live show (I'm a huge fan, btw).
For starters, they play the same music video at the start of each show. Here's the lyrics, played to video of the 3 guys engaging in hyjinx, including briefly trying to build a new Tom Servo.
"Well the concept's not so original, it's true.
But that other show stopped making new episodes
And we didn't know what else to do.
So we called our friends at the Alamo
Then they gave us our show...
Mr Sinus Theater 3000
With Owen
John
and Jerm
Well our shows are all live, not on TV.
We can show films with nudity
On Mr Sinus Theater 3000."
Then the 3 guys come out and do some warm up comedy, giving some background trivia on the movie they're playing. There's a drinking game, and the the rules are established at this time.
Then the show starts, and the three do hilarious comedy during the film. Every once in awhile, the key phrase or image or whatever happens, the audience shouts the appropriate response (established in the warmup), and then everyone drinks (The Alamo Drafthouse movie theater serves beer).
The comedy during the movies is definitely R rated, and they usually cover big cheesy hit movies from the 80's (Dirty Dancing, He-Man, etc.)
Half way through the movie, they stop it, and get up and do a skit based on the movie. They play characters from the movie, often in drag, or stripping down almost naked. Sometimes they do adlib sing alongs and whatnot. Very funny.
Then back to the movie. When it's all over, they thank everyone for coming while the credits roll, then they sell t-shirts and CDs of their comedy out in the lobby.
So they're clearly not doing a parody of MST3k, and they're blantantly referencing the old series in the opening. I'm definitely going to catch the show this friday to see if they mention the situation. Knowing them, they'll make brutal, raunchy fun of the whole thing.
Looking forward to it.
1. Mister Sinus is in the wrong, period. It's perfectly okay to make fun of movies in the Mystery Science style, but it's not okay to rip off their name. Maybe it would be if this were parody, but the thing being parodied is not MST, it's the movies, so that defense will probably collapse. To the guy who said Mister Sinus, in terms of quality, "kicks MST to the curb," I have to respond: I seriously doubt it.
2. The Mystery Science style has been seen in a non-MST DVD before. Take a look at the director's commentary on Ghostbusters some day. Rather slick, if jittery.
3. Best Brains has implied that copying episodes is okay, with "Keep circulating the tapes" in the credits of earlier episodes. Kevin Murphy, voice of Tom Servo and author of A Year At The Movies (which is GREAT, by the way) has condoned internet episode distribution in an interview (but it should be said that he is no longer a Best Brains employee, and wasn't one when he said it). But most fans, and distribution systems such as the DAP, refuse to trade episodes that can currently be purchsed. There are almost ten times as many episodes that aren't available as are, and some of the best ones (like the Gamera series and the other Japanese movies brought to the US by Sandy Frank Enterprises) will probably never be made available for official purchase because of rights issues surrounding the movie.
But there is one really cool thing about all this: MST3K still has the cultural mindshare, among geeks at least, to make the front page on Slashdot! Cause for some celebration, perhaps.
... in front of a screen effect.
In Newtek's Video Toaster. The original one. Circa mid-1980s (if memory serves).
Why is someone throwing Sue over their right shoulder?
Expiring minds want to know.
The smug superiority of slashdot posts like this is really annoying.
That's an easy one.
Not really. The article doesn't say what grounds the MST3K folks think they have for suing Mr. Sinus. The claim is trademark infringement, but that's pretty broad. It looks to me (a non-lawyer) like Mr. Sinus has made tangible efforts to respect the MST3K trademark. Not only did they request a license of some sort, but when it was refused they changed their name. "Mr. Sinus" is a lot closer to "Mr. Science" than to "Mystery Science Theater."
Anyway, a trademark protects a name or symbol. It's not a patent on a particular way of doing things, such as 3 guys making wisecracks in front of a movie. You don't see Jay Leno and Dave Letterman suing each other over their virtually identical formats, nor do the hundreds of DJs calling their radio shows the "morning zoo" or the "drive at five." Infringement claims like this are far from simple and obvious.
Now, can we get back to feeling sorry for people that steal music please?
Nobody "steals" music because nobody "owns" music. There are only copyright "holders" who have temporary, specific rights that expire whenever the government says so. They own nothing. Their only claim is that they suffer losses due to infringement, which may or may not be true in different cases.
The distinction between infringement and theft is important, because "theft" is an age-old concept with a lot of cultural baggage. Everyone can identify with the little old lady chasing down a purse snatcher, or the enraged homeowner catching a junkie trying to carry off the tv set. Copyright infringement is nowhere near as clear cut. It may be illegal, but equating it with theft gives the people one side of the whole "Intellectual Property" issue a PR advantage they don't deserve.
I certainly don't think anybody could win a lawsuit, if they were claiming they invented the format of people in a theatre mocking a bad film, but MST3K does have a solid lawsuit. Why? Tradmark!
Is it hard to see the problem with calling your show "Mr. Sinus Theater 3000"? Maybe if he left off the "3000" it wouldn't be quite so obvious, but as is, it's obviously infringing on their trademark.
Next on the block, let's create a company that sells computers, and call them "Kom Pack".
Slashdot gets worse every day... Pipedot: News for nerds, without the corporate slant
Don't be taken in by this idiot--he has accounts under the names bonch and Overly Critical Guy. He has a history of astroturfing for Microsoft, bashing anything Open Source, using lies and half-truths to get modded up, karma whoring, and the usual trolling (under his bonch account, he got a troll posted to the front page of Slashdot).
All you have to do to check the veracity of this is to look at the posting history of his two old personnae (linked above) and his current one to figure it out.
Please do not mod this jerk up--every time you do the Slashdot S/N ratio goes down while bonch/Overly Critical Guy/rd_syringe just laughs at you.
This has been a public service announcement
Sorry, typo on the "copyright" when I meant trademark. So fucking sue me.
IANAL, but I've seen actors play them on TV