Slashdot Mirror
Third World Research, Development & Innovation
tovarish writes "It is nice to see that countries like India are trying to research communication techniques in backward and rural areas. While tech savvy people like us enjoy the latest gadgets it is quite a challenge to develop gadgets which actually help the poor and illiterate. While India's satellite launches and outsourcing news are already covered in slashdot umpteen times, sometimes her sensible achievements should be covered too."
Her sensible acheivements should be covered too? Can we mark the article blurb as flamebait? Lets keep the bias out of the story. Please.
The World Wide Web is dying. Soon, we shall have only the Internet.
India isn't 3rd world
The Sudan is 3rd world
There's a book that gives a good use of communication in developing nations. It's by CK Prahalad, The Fortune at the Bottom of the Pyramid. It gives the example of how installing an internet terminal in rural Indian villages has helped them set the market for their livestock. They can log on, check the prices for the day and then head to market as more knowledgeable sellers. This keeps them from being taken advantage of and does a lot to help both their confidence and economic prosperity.
"It is nice to see that countries like India are trying to research communication techniques in backward and rural areas." Who are we to call part of India "backward"? The Indian people are making enormous progress in a comparable short ammount of time. The Indian people have launched satalites for purley educational purposes and are determined to fight illiteracy in their country. In many ways the Indian attitude towards education is superior to our own.
In nature, there are neither rewards or punishments, there are only consequences.
... to be a nuclear power, a spatial power, to be the biggest democracy in the world and still be considered a 'third world country'...
The Wise adapts himself to the world. The Fool adapts the world to himself. Therefore, all progress depends on the Fool.
Since when is India a Third World country? What's next, Russia?
BLING BLING. Meet the architecture that's changing everything.
Wouldn't it be better to not teach these people to read and help them with water and food qualiity first?
At least do that before we can get them electronic gadgets like CD and MP3 players so they can transfer they money to the RIAA.
BC
Shouldn't the topic be "India's, Development & Innovation" instead of "Third World Research, Development & Innovation" ???
Here is a short list of web definitions for the "Third World". You might be surprised - it wasn't originally meant to mean what we now think it means.
This sig is a test. If this had been an actual sig, you would be reading something quite a bit wittier than this now.
What qualifies a country to be in the 1st, 2nd or 3rd world? You always hear about 1st and 3rd world contries, but what is a 2nd world country? Are there any examples? China and India have bustling cities that have the comforts of a 1st world contry, but also areas of vast poverty. So where do they belong? My gut would say that should be the definition of the 2nd world countries that we never hear about.
Well.. maybe. Or Maybe not. But Definitely not sort of.
About a microloan program, where very small loans would be given to poor individuals in remote areas, who wanted to start their own businesses. One woman in a remote village used such a loan to buy a cell phone. Prior to this, there were no phone service at all. She would charge her neigbours to place calls using the phone, hence becaming the defacto phone company.
My rights don't need management.
infinityis writes "It is nice to see that countries like United States, etc. are trying to research communication techniques in nerdy and technical areas like http://www.slashdot.org/. While rural people like in India enjoy the simlple life it is quite a challenge to develop technology that gives Americans more time to relax. While the USA's lack of shuttle launches and outsourcing problems are already covered in news outlets umpteen times, sometimes her senseless technological advances should be covered too."
really just means Non-White.. I say this not to be abrasive but true.. Take a look at your nearest world map and start pointing at every place that "qualifies" as THIRD WORLD (what ever that means) - then to contrast point at all the places that qualify as "FIRST WORLD". BTW.. Where is the Second World?
Smile.
Last year I was travelling the length and breadth of this vast country.
In the last ten years, the biggest changes in India are the spread of ATM's and mobile phones. When the state run BSNL started cellular services in 2002 in rural Indian towns, there were stampedes to get the application form.
What you dont find is decent broadband and good roads. Broadband may happen soon with Reliance Infotech putting fiber. But no chance of roads getting better.
And the country proves the trickle down theory favored by World Bank and IMF will not work. I am yet to see anything trickling down. And the country is liberalising for the last 10 years.
Does that mean liberalisation is bad?
No.
Tat Tvam Asi
Yes, it is true. America does less science research per capita than do many of the European nations, especially the countries that Rightwingers love to call "socialist", i.e,. Sweden, Denmark, Belgium, Switzerland, Netherlands, etc. All these countries and some others in Europe publish more science papers (in peer reviewed journals) than does America (some of them publish TWICE as many papers per capita as does America). Gee, I guess that blows away that neoliberal/laisseiz faire argument about America capitalism being the "driving engine behind improving technology, quality of life" etc., and how all those welfare states in Europe are just parasites on America....yawn....
Also, America is even behind 3rd world countries like India & China in terms of science research papers when looked at on a per-capita-wealth basis (numbers of papers per unit of wealth per country). Note on the graph how much to the right America is when compared to, say, India. India publishes more peer-reviewed science papers more capita wealth than does America.
THis is all based on the study entitled "Scientific Impact of Nations" by King for 2004. You can get a link to the pdf version of the paper and see a graph of science papers per per-capita-wealth here.
Well, you learned something today, huh? Now go watch the debate Wednesday and listen to Bush and Kerry tell us about how America is the greatest nation on earth.....
eat shiat and bark at the moon
Come on guys, why do you even bother posting this stuff on here ? Everything on 3rd world tech turns into a huge troll for all the knuckleheads who say they don't need technology or electricity, they need food, water, english and some form of the xtian religion noone finds too offensive.
Please don't assume that you know anything about me, my motivations, my tastes, or my purchasing habits. Just because I read Slashdot, I am not an iPod-owning, MP3-downloading, PDA-using geek.
I want to delete my account but Slashdot doesn't allow it.
India is really big and has over a billion people! Some areas are advanced, but most are every bit a third world country.
"We returned the General to El Salvador, or maybe Guatemala, it's difficult to tell from 10,000 feet"
A recent Cover Story in Indian weekly.
Large scale projects that create jobs and thereby infuse new money into an economy create an environment where businesses can be successful. It seems like a combination of microloans and large investment would be ideal.
It appears to me that atleast a section of the slashdot crowd seems to think that satellite launches in India are a recent phenomenon. At the risk of repeating the obvious, let me say that India launched her first satellite back in 1976. And has been launching satellites regularly since. The largest number of them are weather and communication satellites (the INSAT series). There are also remote sensing satellites (the IRS). The INSAT series satisfies all of India's communication transponder needs and some transponders have been leased to other entities, bringing in money. INSATs were largely responsible for the communication revolution India experiences in the mid-80s.
/.
India also launches satellites meant for polar orbits (the IRS series, for instance) from her own soil, has been for some years now.
The latest news in India's space program is the launch of a geo-synchronous satellite (Edusat) that seems to have gotten attention at
But that's just the latest news; as I said, India's been in space for nearly 30 years now.
"...trying to research communication techniques in backward and rural areas."
What exactly is "backward"? If by backward you mean a rural area or an absense of "the latest gadgets" then this is a way of living in closer harmony with the environment, like it has existed for hundreds of thousands of years, not actually backward at all.
1. GPS to coordinate the trains.
2. low-cost broadband into remote villages
In 1960, Japan was low-tech. It was just emerging out of a textile-based economy, yets its quality of life is much higher than the quality of life in India in 2004 (40 years later). Japan had no GPS to coordinate the trains, yet they were always (and still are) on time. Educational levels in Japan at that time were high. Kids in remote farming enclaves in Hokkaido learned algebra, physics, and chemistry.
The solution for India's problems is not found in hi-tech. Consider the fact that the ratio of male babies to female babies in India is 1.20. In Japan, the ratio in 1960 is 1.05, which is normal. Low-tech did not cause this lopsided ratio in India, and hence, high-tech will not fix the problem.
Look at India's huge investment in the space program and nuclear weapons. In 1950, Japan had almost no investment in such wasteful programs. The Japanese were committed to a program of emulating the West and engaging in practical enterprises to raise the standard of living as quickly as possible.
India is a failure because its culture is a failure.
Media Lab Asia is dead. Well, almost. They are hiring MD/CEO.
Last year, MIT asked Indian Govt. to cough up US$ 5m for using the name "Media Lab" and Govt refused to oblige and deal was called off.
MIT-style research has failed in India.
I believe the designations have to do with birthrates, which are a reflection of social and economic stability. Third world nations have high birth rates and low life expectancy. First world nations have high life expectancies and low birth rates. I don't really ever hear much about the "second world", but I think that referred to the old Soviet bloc. Apparently, there is now a "fourth world" as well: http://www.cwis.org/fourthw.html .
I had occassion to look beyond my nose this morning, and you won't believe what I saw! There's a whole world out there, not just America, and there's many things in it. Like , countries !?! and they have *gasp* different forms of government!! and telephones, and TV? And the youngsters go to places like school and college and all. I didn't know college existed outside the good ol' US of A. God knows what they teach there. Should we bomb them out of existence before they become a threat to world peace, you think?
Or was it "THe Monster on Maple Street"? Anyway, yeah, the American corporate media has built this little delusionary, fantasy world for us, in which we sleep while the corporate neoliberal pirates strip us of our wealth. But don't ever wake the sleeping sheeple--they might get angry!
eat shiat and bark at the moon
Wizzy Digital Courier's mission is to radically drop the cost of Internet access in every aspect, from equipment, to phone rates, to remote access, to the point that most schools in the world can now consider it for their kids. In most countries the Internet, that is EMAIL and WEB, is not available in schools. For kids to graduate without an intimate and second nature experience with the Internet leaves them seriously unprepared. The "Digital Divide" is actually only an economic divide. We have a novel system of using a USB memory stick to carry Internet content.
Andy Rabagliati
As someone who spent a lot of time in an industrial surplus outlet, I watched the technology change in what you could do with it. You can't scratch build stuff like you used to be able to do with vacuum tubes in the 50's and 60's. Try doing your own microprocessor fab or even your own SMT (surface mount technology) in a hut in the middle of nowhere. You can't even hack together stuff the way you used to be able to. It's all custom propietary circuits and interfaces. Go ahead, do the equivalent of getting your Mac to talk to an alien spaceship's command and control system.
Part of it's that multinational corporations want total control and they're not going to create technology that let's you usurp it.
The US must be doing something right, since so much of truly world-class science is done there.
One thing could simply be university management. Here in Europe we're constantly complaining about the academic brain-drain to the US. One reason could be super-hierarchial university culture here. Basically, in the US you get your $XXX grant and you do whatever you wish with the money, whereas here in Europe you have to fight the bureocracy for 2 months to get a pencil sharpener. Which means that the best and brightest get pissed off and go to the US.
you're my friends...So are Americans and I live in a different continent. But FACE IT: it's not only Americans that think India is a third world country, it's MOST OF THE REST OF THE WORLD!
Why everyone cries and blames America for insignificant things like these?
I'll probably get modded down for going against the anti-American groupthink of the day, but here goes.
;-]), you would see that the US comes out on top in most of those graphs and tables, followed by Europe as a whole or the UK individually.
;-) but they aren't "the greatest country on earth per capita wealth." I think that's kind of a narrow way to define who is greatest, but I imagine most people could live with that.
I do science in the UK, which is far further to the left on that graph, and I have to say that no serious scientist here considers even the UK's scientific output to be comparable to that U.S., let alone India. And if you actually read the balanced Nature article instead of selectively picking one graph to prove your point (naughty boy
American science funding and infrastructure is our envy here and many of us would do anything to have a similar system--even go work in the U.S. I'm seriously considering doing just that in a few years.
So in terms of scientific spending, America really is the greatest country on earth, followed by the UK
The rca/svideo/dvi are not disbabled. HOLD the info + guide buttons down and it will switch between component and svideo/coaxial. The DVI is enabled period, he must be doing something wrong. And YES there is volume control He must have it set to "FIXED" in the settings. Grey lettering, retard has it set to "light" and not dark for the letterbox in settings. I'm going to stop now and just say
RTFM
While tech savvy people like us enjoy the latest gadgets it is quite a challenge to develop gadgets which actually help the poor and illiterate.
Whaddya mean? Offshoring turned ME into the poor (at least by US standards).
India is not the only place where hightech can leapfrog the usual progression of roads, electrification, waterworks and other infrastructure development. Though Worldchanging.org is relatively overexposed on /. , you may enjoy reading a
short and inspiring piece there about how much a modest budget and some dedicated nerds can do to bring the internet to remote villages in S.E. asia [and what people who haven't got two floppies to rub together or even electricity find useful about internet connection.]
And I'd actually like to have that laptop when I go camping so I wouldn't suffer those infamous internet withdrawals.
SLASHDOT: news for people who can't concentrate on work or have no life at all and got tired of yelling back at the TV.
Why do we need public education?
People don't exist to serve systems, systems exist to serve people.
When you're surrounded by China and Pakistan, in probably the most hostile region in the world (I'm discounting Israel because Iraq, Iran, etc DO NOT have WMDs), you have to innovate to survive. Just because some sections of the society don't hae adequate food, water and shelter doesn't mean that funding into scientific research is completely stopped before all come up to speed. Most of the time, science is what uplifts the poorer sections of the society.
We usually have to fight with the bureaucracy for years to get our grants. Bureaucrats with a personal agenda can ignore excellent peer reviews. Once they agree, they nickle and dime the budget beyond any sensable reason. Of course the university charges overhead, so we don't have trouble getting pencil sharpeners.
Hemos is an editor. No wonder slashdot is going downhill these days. And you are moded down for pointing out the obvious. That editors are shitty on slashdot.
Hemos , get out of slashdot. You are worse than thimothy.
but you have to innovate at a rate faster than exponential population growth. It's like the Red Queen said.
"Priced at about $3,200, a single K-yan can tutor a large classroom of nearly 100 students in schools that cannot afford multiple personal computers."
$3200 is insanely high for any indian school to afford. this is probably more than the entire IT spending budget in an year for a small school. u can buy cheap computers in india for around 250$, but computers are still cheaper in USA for similar configuration.
The main problem with india is there is that most of the people in rural areas dont even know what the internet is, forget a computer. they definitely cant afford a computer, and internet connections are waaaayy too expensive, even for the "city" people. do u know any indian who stays online for "24 hours" from Home ?? Its just not affordible.
So i guess the first thing to do there would to reduce the cost of internet/infrastructure (just like they did for cell-phones) and then look for finding innovative devices to use it.
BTW, just in case u dont know, the price of gas in india is around 5$ per gallon (people in rural areas earn around 30$ per month) ! So much for "low costs".
Wired recently ran an interesting piece on the latest round in the wars over evolution in the schools. If this continues, what are the long-term consequences for biological research in the U.S.?
Whats so great about the K-Yan?
Some duct tape, a htpc and a projector . . . thats all it is.
Its almost as if the journalists are treating the guy like a retard - give him too much credit for something so simple.
Theres definitely more innovative stuff than that, like DakNet http://www.firstmilesolutions.com/demo.htm, who came up with LOW cost internet access for rural areas.
I dont mean to take credit away from K-Yan - it might be a good product- but is it innovative?
OK, China's main export to the US are computers and electronics and the main US export to China are soybeans.
Which one is 1st and which one is 3rd world ?
Which third world are we talking about? According to Bush in his latest debate, there are apparently several third worlds.
Japan is a third world country by your definition, i.e. non-white. I guess the US must be at least partially 3rd world too since it's 23% non white.
The real reason for the correlation has nothing to do with racism and more to do with geography. The 3rd world nations are almost exclusively in the tropics where it's a bitch to live because of the lack of one thing... winter. A constant growing season means insects and disease are a constant threat that never has a chance to die off every year. People living in the tropics develop darker skin after thousands of years to protect them from the higher amount of UV radiation, thus the correlation with skin color and economic prosperity.
The exception to this is China (not in the tropics), which up until relatively recently was a prosperous nation. Then came communism and screwed it all up (though I suspect there might be other factors as well). Since China has now turned to a more market economy they're quickly leaving 3rd world status.
AccountKiller
It is my considered opinion that the editors of Slashdot deliberately post stories about India's achievements and their sole reason is to invite slashdotters to make fun of India.
Stories about China's achievements get applauded as "humankind's" achievements while the same about India are booed as someone trying to achieve high status. A projection's of the reader's thoughts is what it is.
You guys and girls don't even know the history of India and you don't know what a belief her people have in her "tryst with destiny" (Nehru's speech on midnight of India's independence). Why are these two things important? Because
(a) history teaches us something. For those whose concept of ancient-ness is 200 years, this concept would probbaly have no meaning. Consider this, for most of its history, India was a rich country which was a subject of invasions and immigrations. It was called a "bird of gold." But Indians became complacent and gave more attention to arts, poetry (and probably sex - an ancestor of mine wrote Kamasutra). It got invaded so much that it was under non-Indians' rule for 1000 years.
And now when we develop nuclear weapons to prevent repeat of history, you history-less people have the gall to tell us we are wrong!
(b) we achieved higher things before and by doing technological innovation we are only going back to the same level, we don't aspire for any high frikkin status. That will come with time and accomplishments.
Here is the bottomline, take it or take it.
We will continue to use technology.
We will continue to develop further technology.
We will continue to do whatever it takes us to protect the borders and peoples of India.
If you dislike it, close your eyes, stop reading about India, and keep licking China's a$$.
Jesus, I'm sick of seeing these things.
Some standard is being set in India which prioritizes how work is expended. Right now, that standard is NOT the well being of the people of India. Who cares if 100,000 people get to research all they want when 300,000,000 can't even read? Who is advocating ignorance here?
Which is like saying I shouldn't buy an ipod while there are people starving anywhere. Or wait, I should't buy a cell phone. Or a CD. Or even another pair of shoes if my first pair has any wear left - as long as someone somewhere is hungry.
If one of the 100,000 was going to do research in USA or India, let them choose to do it in India. Don't make them be a primary school teacher, they make hate it and put people off learning altogether.
Its a tempatation when dealing with figures to step too far and make decisions regarding peoples lives and freedoms - remove an arm here, make someone work in a coal mine there - as if its OK because the over-all picture is neater.
I think the other guy had it right.
Sam
blog.sam.liddicott.com
Are you using an analogy or can you provide a source???
Quit blaming socialism for the horrible mess that is India. Socialism means taking care of the whole society. Has India EVER done that? If you dont even have the WILL to feed, clothe, house and educate the MAJORITY of your people, you dont have the right to call yourself socialist.
You guys have got to be the biggest embarrassment for the americans pushing democracy around the world.
I can just picture some dictator or monarch telling the american democratic evangelist: But look at India. It has been an unbroken democracy for decades. Just look at it. Do you want us to end up like THAT???
The exception to this is China (not in the tropics), which up until relatively recently was a prosperous nation. Then came communism and screwed it all up
.No, you can blame a decrepit monarchy, the Europeans (Opium Wars) and the Japanese (Japanese Expansionism - but this is a sanitised article, google for what they did in Nanjing) for China's past weakness. The Guomindang were too weak and corrupt to do much good. The Communists actually are responsible for China's return to great power staus, despite mistakes like the Great Leap Forward and the Cultural Revolution.
Untrue. American universities are bloated with administrative overhead and it is getting worse. The American university system is broken.
Read up on what "self-sufficient" means, and read up on some basic economics and history too, before calling people liars. There is food for all; what many don't have is purchasing power, and a good public distribution system doesn't exist (a bad one does exist, though). Nothing to do with foreign aid or lack of it.
You guys seems to be forgettin all that chilly
billy masala stuff you git from US
It's here
It tells a lot about India's and other developing world countries needs, and sensible approaches to technology-based development.
See also the statement by the Delegate from Brazil
when it comes to helping the poor and illiterate is the IUD.l
http://www.plannedparenthood.org/bc/iud.htm
What if I don't want to be robbed by the government to pay for your or someone elses childs education? The private education system works better, why not just pay to put your kids in school? We need smaller government, we can let the private industry handle job training.
People don't exist to serve systems, systems exist to serve people.
India is to be lauded for not charging down the "pave the earth" path.
For one thing, they inherited a very decent rail network from their British Empire days. And railroads are the most efficient land transport technology around. So "decent roads" would not be a worthwhile improvement for them.
For another, with India's having three times the USA's population in one third the land area, it really doesn't make sense for them to pave so many roads, or try to get too many people driving cars. Already the subcontinent is covered by one vast smogbank, as airline pilots have noticed.
I agree with you they aren't doing too badly on some well-chosen metrics. But at the same time they are doing pretty abysmally on some other important metrics. Corruption, concentration [& general lack] of wealth, destruction of the environment, ethnoreligious feuding...
These are all metrics that may not be completely objective. But they are somewhat objective, and extremely relevant, and they are exactly what peg India as a quintessential Third World country.
Someone tried to peg Sudan as the true third-world. Not accurate. Experts have coined the term *fourth* world for those totally-failed-and-still-deteriorating African states. India as a whole is still smack-dab in the middle of the third-world category, notwithstanding a few Bill Gates types hanging out in Bangalore.