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Hands Down, Palm is Now Number Two
jamesl writes "InformationWeek reports that the number one PDA operating system now comes from Redmond, 48.1% last quarter (41.2% a year ago) compared to 29.8% (46.9% last year) for PalmSource. The big gainer was RIM, up to 19.8% from 4.9%. Linux ... a valient 0.9%, off slightly from last years' 1.9%.
The article has some thoughts about where the market is going with phones taking on more PDA functions."
Think Palm will start tossing around antitrust lawsuits aimed at MS and patent lawsuits at RIM (no matter how unfounded) soon?
Could the dive in Linux PDA adoption be related to the failure of the Zaurus line and Sharp's nonexistent attempts to promote it?
Can Microsoft really be considered a monopoly anymore?
With dirt-cheap-to-make phones taking over the (simple) functions of PDAs, I can't see the market for pure PDAs improving much. Honestly, I always found a 400$ device too costly to replace my paper address/notebook. But its a different thing altogether if they can offer me the functionality on my phone, for just about the same price.
Eureka Science News - automatically updated
I'd quote from the linked article but it seems to be slashdotted so I'll quote from an infosync article:
http://www.infosyncworld.com/news/n/5526.html
"It should be noted that these percentages apply only to the handheld market, which for the purposes of this study excludes the widely-popular palmOne Treo 600. The Treo line has had a long history of reclassification, and often bounces back and forth between different market categories in different studies."
Gartner has had a long history of producing studies that suggest Palm is losing to Microsoft. Their latest tactic seems to be to exclude the best selling Palm product from their studies.
http://nyamenation.org/
I think the pocketpc vs palm battle has reached a tipping point. At this stage people will start to think of buying into an OS with a future, which will lead to accelerating movement away from Palm OS. Think of Netscape VS IE. The remarkable think is that in this case it occurred without any underhanded tactics from MS, and even quite lacklustre support. The main advantage has been the assumption that hardware will catch up with OS demands, while Palm aways tried to live within hardware limitations, resulting in limited product, optimized for 33Mhz.
Thank God for Moore's Law
Surur
Information is the location of things. Computation is moving things around.
Article seems to be /.ed so:
j html?articleID=52601413
----
Microsoft Seizes PDA Market Lead From PalmSource
Microsoft led the market in the third quarter for operating systems used in personal digital assistants, surpassing for the first time the Palm OS that dominated the handheld-computer segment for years.
By Antone Gonsalves, TechWeb, InformationWeek
Nov. 12, 2004
URL: http://www.informationweek.com/story/showArticle.
Microsoft Corp. led the market in the third quarter for operating systems used in personal digital assistants, surpassing for the first time the Palm OS that dominated the handheld-computer segment for years.
The Redmond, Wash., company shipped 1.38 million units of Windows CE in the quarter ended Sept. 30, accounting for 48.1 percent of the market, researcher Gartner Inc. said Friday. PalmSource trailed far behind with 850,821 units, or 29.8 percent of the market.
During the same period a year ago, PalmSource shipped 1.2 million units, 46.9 percent of the market, compared with Microsoft's 1.04 million units, or 41.2 percent.
The switch was not a surprise, given PalmSource's focus on supplying an OS for advanced cellular phones, called "smartphones," that contain many of the same features as PDAs, such as contact lists, personal calendars and email. PalmSource's Palm OS is used in smartphones from PalmOne Inc. and Kyocera Wireless Corp.
"They've abdicated their leadership in the PDA market in order to become a significant player in the smartphone market," Gartner analyst Todd Kort said of PalmSource.
The market's No. 3 operating system is from Research In Motion Ltd, which supplies the OS for its own BlackBerry PDA, a device that's popular among businesspeople. OS shipments increased more than 350 percent in the quarter to 565,000 units from 123,775 a year ago. RIM's market share rose to 19.8 percent from 4.9 percent.
Linux was the No. 4 operating system, but its market share dropped to 0.9 percent from 1.9 percent a year ago.
Driven by RIM's success with the Blackberry, the overall PDA hardware market increased in the quarter 13.6 percent to 2.86 million units from 2.52 million units a year ago, according to Gartner. The same driver is expected to account for most of a 4 percent increase for the year to about 12 million units.
Given the PDA market trends, it makes sense for PalmSource to switch its marketing and research and development focus to smartphones. Shipments of the advanced cellular phones are increasing rapidly at the expense of the PDA market, which has been slipping steadily, Kort said. In addition, smartphones have higher profit margins.
"(PalmSource) could fight a little harder, but it's probably smarter to let (market share) slip and put more of the resources on smartphones," Kort said.
RIM's Blackberry is expected to keep the PDA market growing through the first half of next year, Gartner said. In the second half, however, sales are expected to slow, and the overall market is forecast to post a decline for all of 2005.
PDA sales, however, are expected to eventually stabilize within a mature market that's becoming increasingly dependent on businesspeople. Companies are expected to account for 40 percent of sales this year, compared with 29 percent in 2003, according to Gartner.
While consumers can get enough of the PDA's capabilities in a cellular phone, business executives and sales people will prefer the PDA's larger screen for calling up business documents and email attachments while on the road, Kort said.
PalmOne, the largest user of the Palm OS, led the PDA hardware market, but continued to lose market share to other vendors as it too shifted focus to smartphones. PalmOne's share slipped to 26.2 percent from 34.3 percent a year ago.
No. 2 Hewlett-Packard Co. increased market share to 24.2 percent from 23 percent, followed by RIM, which posted a huge jump to 19.8 percent from 4.9 percent. Rounding out the top five were Dell Inc., 6.5 percent from 5.4 percent; and Symbol Technologies Inc., 2.2 percent from 2.9 percent.
PocketPCs are more versatile. I know this and don't even own one.
Meanwhile, Palm has tried more to generate cash than generate a strategy that makes their product diverse enough to work like an operating system, and not like an appliance with canned tasks.
I've watched them cut their market support to where essentially only Windows is supported. Not the best plan without something better to offer. It's the same battle that MP3 player makers have against Apple--they can't offer much better since they don't have a better online music interface to match the iPod's simple operation.
Vos teneo officium eram periculosus ut vos recipero is.
Much to my dismay I have just discovered that the latest Psion handheld is running "Wince".
R.I.P. EPOC 5, a decent little OS that did what it was designed to do.
Linux ... a valient 0.9%, off slightly from last years' 1.9%
Is that at all related to Valient Thorr?
. . . 'cuz I love my Zaurus too, but 1.9% to .9% is not "off slightly". Its a shellacing.
trustedworlds.net - gaming, security, and the gunk that lives in between
Business success has more to do with partnerships and deals, in reality, both OSs are adequate for use as a PDA, so it's really just what kind of business deals that each company can secure.
As it seems the world wants to run a Windows like OS on mobile chips. If they want a Win32 like OS then we should give them a free one.
Free Unix? Free Windows. http://www.reactos.com
Link ... they might be blocking links from /. ?
But it's still over 50% of lost market share. I don't see that as a slight drop, personally.
1.9 drop to .9 is more than slightly, mor like a 47% drop.
It's their own fault, really. I have a T3 and I love it, but I think it will be their last good PDA unless they pull something out of their arse.
They aquaired BeOS, and did nothing with it. While all their competitors were working wireless into their units, palm comes out with the T5 that is -less- functional then the T3.
It's a shame, too, because the PDA market wouldn't be where it is right now without Palm.
The government's moral compass is controlled by GPS.
In times of crises, they alter it to suit their needs.
No, definately salient.
I'm an enthusiastic linux user and advocate (and a kde developer), however I don't think Linux, or Windows is the right OS for a PDA.
They were designed for intel processors, multitasking was a requirement, and various other design factors optimising them for "normal" computers.
PalmOS, however, is optimized for handhelds, doesn't do multitasking (I don't know about palm OS 5) simply because it's not neccesary on a PDA, and has one of the most intuitive interfaces i've seen. Also, PalmOS leaves me loads of space on my 2MB Zire for all of my data (several hundred contacts), and the entire new testament (seriously). I really doubt Windows could run with so little storage, and with Linux, there really wouldn't be that much room for data.
They're still releasing devices with PalmOS 5 which is the saddest apology for an operating system I have seen. Writing PalmOS GUI code is hard - there are so many legacy features you need to check for and deal with. It's clear that the whole thing has just accreted without planning over the years. The current schizophrenia between 68000 and ARM is a nightmare with the worse endianness horrors you've ever seen. I won't even mention proper OS features like memory management, multi-threading and so on.
Customers have been begging for proper wireless support on Palms for a long time and Palm have failed to deliver. A device, today, without at least 802.11b, is a dinosaur before it's born. What the hell are the Palm engineers doing over there?
The software that delivers with the Palm is a little pathetic. Not even a file browser. And main memory has a completely flat file hierarchy so that even with a file browser it's hard to find what you want. No word processor (well, there's an awful 3rd party thing).
It's no surprise they're losing the war. But it needn't have been like this. They had the advantage. And they simply sat on their laurels.
Doesn't it make you feel good to know that our freedoms are protected by politicans, lawyers and journalists.
If that is we ignore desktops the way gartner has ignored the treo
I think there's a huge segment of the handheld users that are project managers, managers, analysts, etc. These people depend on (because of market penetration) Microsoft products such as Excel, Word, Project, and Outlook.
It would make sense that the the most popular "take with you" version of these would be on a PocketPC running Microsoft CE.
If Palm had wanted to remain on the top, they'd have had to offer *seamless* integration with these products, but how can they when they're competing with the company that MAKES them?
This is the a great example of how a monopoly can be used to extend into another market via a "one-off" mechanism.
Diplomacy is the art of saying, "Nice doggie!" until you can find a rock.
RIM Blackberry is strong, but IMHO that's only due to 2 things:
- a keyboard
- an easy to use system
- unmetered email
Ie. it tries to serve customers instead of thinking about milking them dry. Not that it's not they long term goal (maybe) but they provide a decent service for a decent fee.
But that's just a functionnality-based success. Any WinCE, Palm or Zaurus call plan which would offer the same functionnality would quickly become as big. Time to think about new functions too - say unmetered instant messenging (like SMS but free!)
Note to cell phone operators : stop thinking about milking your customers dry. Start thinking about offering services, such as voip roaming (ie if my cellphone finds a wifi network, use sipphone instead of $lousy_gsm_provider - especially when roaming abroad !)
This is IMHO the key to success. Then whatever hardware or operating system that goes along, if it is not too lousy, will grow.
The Zaurus 6000 could have become big. The user interface needed only minor tweaking. If only it had had GSM built it (smartphone like) + some good voip software + a call plan where email and instant messenging would have been free...
The market is lagging not because of lack of functionnality or technical capabiliies (GPRS makes possible to receive calls at the same time you have a data connection on a multiplex-capable GSM phone) but only because a shared monopoly between shitty operators prevent this innovation from appearing. "what if it eats my profits?" is wrong spririt. With the same mentality horseless carriage ie cars would have never existed. "it will eat every competitor alive and grow my market share and thus skyrocket my profits" is right.
Where's entrepreunership and risk taking? I just see deep-coma business !
That's free advice from a disgruntled french cellphone customer.
No, definItely valiAnt. :-P
Well, since a lot of the new mobile phones today have PDA functionalities, Symbian should have been included in the list. Here in South East Asia, more people have these so called smart phones than PDA users, most of 'em are phones based on Symbian.
Take-off every
In this market, Redmond is simply providing the better product, hands down.
Personally I'm happy with my old Palm 5. The battery lasts for ever and it does exactly what it needs to do very well. But I guess the market wants features.
Linux has a loooong way to go here.
In Capitalist America, bank robs you!
I'll be modded into oblivion just for pointing out that the corporate employees who run a for-profit website should have just a tiny bit of pride in worksmanship, but who are we really kidding here?
[
"Linux ... a valient [sic] 0.9%, off slightly from last years' 1.9%."
A drop of 53% in Linux market share is hardly "slight". A forced retreat is hardly the "discretion" exercised as "the better part of valor". Linux and PalmOS smartphones have an advantage in ease of development and app market momentum. We developers have to counter the Microsoft monopoly advantage in marketing to an American public that expects less from our phones than we do from our watches. Otherwise the nightmare of spam, cracks and crashes will follow us everywhere we go today.
--
make install -not war
Linux Off SLIGHTLY (Score:0) .9 is more than slightly, mor like a 47% drop.
by Anonymous Coward on Saturday November 13, @11:36AM (#10807038)
1.9 drop to
[ Reply to This ]
GSOUH (Score:-1, Offtopic)
by Anonymous Coward on Saturday November 13, @11:36AM (#10807039)
Grayscale of unrecognized handwriting.
[ Reply to This ]
It's their own fault (Score:1)
by plexxer (214589) on Saturday November 13, @11:37AM (#10807043)
It's their own fault, really. I have a T3 and I love it, but I think it will be their last good PDA unless they pull something out of their arse.
They aquaired BeOS, and did nothing with it. While all their competitors were working wireless into their units, palm comes out with the T5 that is -less- functional then the T3.
It's a shame, too, because the PDA market wouldn't be where it is right now without Palm.
[ Reply to This ]
my opinions (Score:1)
by fred87 (720738) on Saturday November 13, @11:39AM (#10807054)
(http://www.fredemmott.co.uk/)
I'm an enthusiastic linux user and advocate (and a kde developer), however I don't think Linux, or Windows is the right OS for a PDA.
They were designed for intel processors, multitasking was a requirement, and various other design factors optimising them for "normal" computers.
PalmOS, however, is optimized for handhelds, doesn't do multitasking (I don't know about palm OS 5) simply because it's not neccesary on a PDA, and has one of the most intuitive interfaces i've seen. Also, PalmOS leaves me loads of space on my 2MB Zire for all of my data (several hundred contacts), and the entire new testament (seriously). I really doubt Windows could run with so little storage, and with Linux, there really wouldn't be that much room for data.
[ Reply to This ]
You won't be modded into oblivion because you mentioned "being modded into oblivion" :-)
/.) you would think that they would build spellcheck into slashcode. Spellchecking modules are available for Postnuke, PHP-Nuke and a variety of other free, open source CMS solutions. Maybe someone should code one up for Taco and the gang using one of the many free dictionary databases out there (like the ones used at HyperDictionary)
I agree tho, for all of the spelling errors that geeks are notorious for (perhaps due to sites like
Obviously competing on a closed source basis with microsoft is hopeless. The market brought out a viable competitor to windows in linux despite the governments hapless efforts. hopefully we'll see some legitamte copmetition that will better the market and people won't wine too much.
Palm phones are - sadly - not as widely distributed in Europe. Well, Denmark, at any rate.
Not like Palm that requires full admin access for every user to use Palm Desktop, at least PocketPC works as a limited user without mucking with the system.
Use Evolution instead of Outlook? Bewa
It fails to consider people like me who have a pocket pc and used it until my ipaq was abandoned was no longer supported. As a result i flashed by device to dual boot to familiar linux then later removed the PPC partition. I have a Pocket PC that runs linux. From the the posts on the familiar list, there are quite a few other people who do so as well however, this report would think we were running windows.
The war with islam is a war on the beast
The war on terror is a war for peace
Remember smartphones, the growing market segment (unlike the shrinking PDA segment)?
p ?r eport_id=222287&t=e&cat_id=20
4
"2003 was a breakout year for mobile operating system vendor Symbian Software, which shipped 6.67 million operating systems worldwide--an 88 percent market share of advanced OS-based handset sales. Before 2003, the Symbian OS was resident on only five handset models--all but one from Nokia. At the end of 2003, the number of Symbianbased handsets remained modest, at 11 models from four vendors, with five more scheduled for launch in the first quarter of 2004."
http://www.researchandmarkets.com/reportinfo.as
http://www.mobilemonday.net/mm/story.php?id=388
This report is bunk. The results don't count the Treo -- PalmOne's best seller and the leading "smartphone" out there.
How appropriate. You fight like a cow.
Good point, but not relevant to this article. It only measures sell-through, not past market share.
This one Palm did to themselves. Palm had half a dozen years to turn PalmOS into a modern, reliable 32bit operating system, instead they are still shipping handhelds that emulate bits and pieces of an old 68k design, don't multitask properly, and make it hard allocate more than 64k at a time. Apparently, PalmOS 6 has been released, but neither PalmOne nor Sony are even bothering to make handhelds with it; it's too little too late. The only thing that has kept the platform alive is the fact that there are lots of good applications for it and that kept the original GUI more or less intact.
All Microsoft had to do is show up to the party. WinCE isn't a great operating system, but it's a lot better than PalmOS. The thing that has been holding PocketPC back is its awful UI.
My hope would be that PalmOne (the hardware part of Palm) explores some new ideas: Symbian is a great system they could ship right away, or they could adopt one of the Linux-based PDA environments and port a PalmOS emulation layer to that to run all the Palm legacy applications.
TFA says they've abdicated the PDA market for the integrated phone market.
So the market is converging, and saying that someone has a larger or smaller share of part of it is meaningless.
Are PalmOS sales as a whole up? Are WinCE sales up? Which is up more?
I still just want a Linux matchbox I can use to run nmap or ssh. It should have a VGA port, 2 USB ports, and built-in wifi.
sigs, as if you care.
I liked my Palm since 1997, but only used it for the most basic things, primarily to look up addresses, appointments, and simple lists. Now that the iPod can do most of what I used my Palm for, I just carry that. Costs less too.
I would have to say that PalmOne deserves whatever happens to them. Until the release of the T5 I was a die-hard Palm OS fan, owning now less than six different Palm devices over the years (starting with the original Palm Pilot.) However when PalmOne released the T5 it was such a slap in the face to all of their customers that I couldn't believe that a company could be so stupid. For the T5 is essentially a T3, execpt with some more memory. And no Wi-fi. And no Cobalt. And did I mention no Wi-fi? The day after PalmOne released the T5 (October 4) I decided against upgrading my Treo 600 to a Treo 650 (which has a meagre 32mb of ram and NO WI-FI) and instead bought a Dell Axim x30. It has Wi-fi, a exteremly fast processor (624mhZ) and tons of memory. While I find the OS unstable, I now see how much the PalmOS has limited me.
In the beginning the universe was created. This made a lot of people very angry and is widely considered as a bad move.
I've wanted a linux pda for years.. I just cant afford to pay cheap computer prices for a PDA.
Problem is that the companies that make them sell them for too much! If they made them more affordable it wouldnt be 0.09%.
I have an old palm III.. can't justify spending over $300 on a new pda.
Hey Zaurus and other linux pda makers.. Make them more affordable and we'll buy them!
Anyone know where to get linux based pda's cheap?
JD
While this is bad news for Palm, it's not so bad in that this really just reflects their current strategy: stay in the PDA business, but don't break the bank on it. They believe convergent devices are a huge part of their future (they're already selling 2 different treo models, and are definitely going to continue making more), and who's to blame them? Nowadays, I don't want to carry two devices when I can only carry one. If bluetooth had taken off more in US cellphones (thank you very much Verizon) then we might be seeing a different picture, but as it is, the PDA market is considered dead and/or stagnant.
2 98
"A decline in Palm OS shipments was expected in the third quarter of 2004, but not of this magnitude," Mr. Kort said. "The company is pouring the vast majority of its resources into its smartphone business. A reduction in the number of PDA models palmOne offers is expected in 2005."
Most certainly bad for Palm, but not quite a deathknell. Another two aspects of trickery in this report: this only includes numbers of units *shipped,* not numbers of units *sold.* There is indeed a difference. I'm sure that PalmOne sold less devices in this quarter, but I'm pretty sure these numbers don't include much in the way of the new T5 (meaning it's likely people were still waiting to see what new stuff Palm would have) and who's to say that there isn't a backlog of iPaqs sitting in some warehouse somewhere, waiting to be sold?
Link to another article with the same numbers: http://www.palminfocenter.com/view_story.asp?ID=7
www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/ArticleNews/TPStor y/LAC/20041111/RRIM11/TPBusiness/Canadian
RIM has been embroiled in a patent dispute for the last two years. They have already lost a suit in lower court and are awaiting a judgement on appeal. The game is already afoot.
As for Palm suing them, RIM has its own arsenal of patents with which to threaten Palm.
When I see all this crud going on, I deeply regret that I didn't take my father's advice and go into law. The only thing holding me back is that I currently am able to sleep at night with a clear conscience and I'm not sure I could do that as a lawyer.
Come on, actual "FreeBSD is dying" trolls are the ones that are dying. Couldn't you even come up with a John Kerry / Yasser Arafat / Taco Snotting / Firefox parody?
PalmOS is nowhere near as clunky as Windows CE.
For one thing, PalmOS has got a much simpler and more elegant user interface than its rival (Why the hell would anyone think that a desktop metaphor is suitable for a PDA?) and for another it's far faster than it too.
When I'm looking up an address or want to enter a quick note then I don't want to have to navigate through a menu system to get there first and wait while everything happens.
The key advantage PocketPCs have over Palms is the Microsoft factor: just as it has with other markets (eg, web browsers), Microsoft has leveraged its dominance in one market (desktop OS) to achieve success in another.
To suggest that PocketPCs are intrinsically superior to equivalent Palm models is hilarious.
If I were a tad more paranoid, I'd suggest that your comment and one or two others like it I've seen posted about this story were classic cases of astroturfing.
"Accept that some days you are the pigeon, and some days you are the statue." - David Brent, Wernham Hogg
My last Palm was a Zire 21 that cam free with a laptop. What surprises me is that I can't see any real change from my ancient IIIx.
Seriously, four years ago the Palm was a pretty nice deal. It handled a number of essential functions well, did it better than paper, and synced with your PC.
At the time it was the market leader for a reason.
Trouble is I keep looking at all of the things which reasonably should have evolved or been added and all that I see are the things that are missing, and the software that hasn't particularly improved in four years.
All things being equal, the mid range Palm feels like it should be a $49 retail item, if that.
Three Squirrels
We can agree on the ridiculous hw launches. I mean the Tungsten T came out and went to the previous models page in what.. a year?
.. they do it just fine!
When it comes to legacy feature.. well, that's a GREAT thing. Not for the developer, but for the user. You can still use the old PDAs for most new programs - and guess what
In fact I sort of wish I never sold my Palm Vx, which was just about the sexiest handheld beast EVER. But the lure of the Tungsten T with mp3 playback, extra storage and so on got me - even if I went from a monthly charge to a weekly charge of the battery.
Wireless support? I agree. Horrible.
File browsers shouldn't be necessary. For most users they aren't either. Only power users would need them. That is a Good Thing(TM). Users shouldn't have to bother with it, but simply choose "remove this program and associated data" and let that be that.
When it comes to word processors PalmOS has a dream of a program. Wordsmith. It works just fine on dragonball-machines and it screams on the ARM based ones. It can import and edit MS Word files and even works as an improved notebook. It's the best word processor on a handheld computer today. It's as simple as that (yes, I've owned and used an iPaq till I got rid of it, because it was only good as a toy really. Going to control panel to STOP a program? You've got to be kidding me).
I'm sure the article links to PalmInfocenter.
Palm doesn't even exist. You might as well say Palm Pilots.
There's TWO companies now. PalmSource and pa1m0ne. pa1m0ne is STILL THE #1 SELLER OF PDAS. The OS market share has been lost but that's because of Sony dropping out of the market.
So PalmSource is #2 and pa1m0ne is STILL #1.
You have got to be kidding. When was the last time you saw a TV or print advert for a pocketpc without a price attached. I still remember the Palm adverts with the couple on the two trains quite well. Didn't they have Claudia Schiffer in one of their campaigns. Palm also has enormous mindshare. Any handheld computer is still a Palm Pilot to the uninitiated.
I know you think MS is backing pocketpc's with billions, but remember they are part of the same devision as X-box, which is definitely making a loss. Also palm still has billions in the bank from their IPO during the dot-com boom.
I wish MS would take a larger interest in their creation, and do some more promoting. Instead they are all over the place, with separate implementations for media players and the x-box, when they could have made one integrated platform. Despite their lack of support the market has chosen, and it has chosen versatility and power over "simplicity" and "ease of use".
Surur
Information is the location of things. Computation is moving things around.
..is the bomb! What's Palm doing on this front? NOTHING!
Forget handheld GPS units, and their tiny little screens. Forget big-screen chart plotters, and their multi-thousand dollar price tags. Get a Pocket PC from your favorite maker, a GPS add-on, some nav software, and be sailing the high seas for $500. Or driving the roads, or flying the now-friendly skies. Pocket PC navigation software rocks.
In fact, Microsoft Streets was one of the killer apps making Pocket PC so popular in the first place.
I've been using a Sony CLIE TJ37 for about 6 months now and I can't say I am impressed by the PalmOS. It's barely capable of the 802.11 that is supposedly built into the system, the apps aren't that much better than the older versions of PalmOS, battery life sucks, and the handwriting input still trails the NewtonOS, which has been dead for 6 years. All these things were acceptable when the PalmOS was trying to run on a dinky 68k chip but I can run Linux or OSX on the same Mhz processor as we find in the Palm systems these days and still, in the case of OSX (and maybe Linux - I dunno how Linux power management is these days but it used to suck), get decent battery life. I don't know that much about Windows Mobile 2004 or whatever it's called, but I can't imagine it'd be less capable than PalmOS.
These things (i600s) simply do not work as advertised. Verizon is lying on their page that says product info. For instance, they claim 240 hours of standby battery time with the default battery. Now, Windows 2003 upgrade has doubled battery performance, where I can almost get 1 full day (24 hours) STANDBY time on my i600 with the normal battery, this is with 0 use. They do include a double size battery that you can actually use for 1 morning-night period of normal use, but heavy use? forget it with these. One of the people at work had one and went hunting, kept the extended battery connected but the phone OFF for the friday night-sunday afternoon time frame, and the battery was DEAD when he got back. So, if you used BOTH batterys, and the phone was OFF the entire time, you would NOT get the 240 hours "STANDBY" time that Verizon claims on their page.
Next problem is basically a BSOD on these things, The same guy who took his hunting just got his replaced with a brand new one from Samsung because he couldn't make calls. Now he can't RECEIVE calls. If you call his phone it crashes. The interior display goes black, and the exterior LCD says "missed call".. We had 11 of these phones, and every single one was junk, was quirky, did NOT perform anywhere near as advertised.
The data sync.. forget about it. One day you get emails with only a 20-30 minute delay, next day no emails come to your phone, next day you get duplicates of the same emails you got the first day, but still none from the second day...
Anyways, I'll wait for the class action, in the meantime, DO NOT BUY Samsung i600's with Windows on them, they are total garbage...
Oh, if you want to ignore me, I still have 9 of them for sale $300 each, gently used.
My Linux Command of the Day site : LCOD
That's serious? Would you believe that even more then half a percent of Pocket PC users have done that?
I have a Zaurus SL-6000L. It was easy to buy on Amazon.com. It blows people away with its incredible screen. I could easily use it as a cellphone with ziaxphone. It has plenty of accessories. The battery life is terrific. It's rugged. There are dozens of brilliant little innovations in the hardware.
The fact is that it ships with Linux, so it's doomed. Slashdotters (and other Linux fanboys with no clue about economics) have made it abundantly clear that they would prefer to pay the Microsoft tax as long as the total initial price tag (not TCO) is lower. They know shit about economies of scale and so they demand that something without M$ built in be auto-cheaper no matter how few are sold.
I have zero sympathy for Slashdotters who WON'T GO OUT AND BUY SOMETHING WITHOUT THE MICROSOFT TAX. Particularly when that something is so obviously superior in its display, its ruggedness, its mean time between reboots, its browser, its Java implementation, its USB host functionality, and on and on.
M$ shovels in a billion dollars a month, yet economics-challenged morons on Slashdot continue to say that they're "doomed" and that OS plurality is inevitable. It's not! And it's because of you!
How can 'Redmond' be number one, when they don't produce a single bit of PDA hardware. Their PDA 'OS' offering is fragmented over a whole handful of platforms from a plethora of hardware vendors.
"What's the frequency Kenneth?"
a valient 0.9%, off slightly from last years' 1.9%.
Since when was a difference of more than half your market share slight??!?
-- I'm so cool, I don't need a sig.
Windows CE shipments exceeded Palm OS shipments for the first time. CE comprises of a number of different platforms not just Pocket PC. This is due to sony's exit from the PDA market as well as declining handheld sales, and rising smartphone (Treo) sales. Plus this is also based on a Gartner report. The actual numbers are posted here:
= 72 98
http://www.palminfocenter.com/view_story.asp?ID
-Ryan
Agreed, the Treo is a tremendously popular unit, and its sales are simply not being counted.
True, the "Pocket PC Phone Edition" is also left out... but I've used one of those and can't believe they've got any significant market share. The mismatch between the OS/GUI and what a phone needs is unreal.
For many Slashdotters, the palm is still their one and only.
I know god exists. I read it on the internet, so it must be true.
Did you ever consider that maybe, just maybe, people like you are DWARFED in number by people who are not like you? And that including people like you in the statistics would not change them except at maybe the 30th decimal place? No? Maybe you should. Just because you do something doesn't make it a trend, and just because you know people who've done the same doesn't either. Get a clue!
2. Handspring/PalmOne's slow roll out of the Treo 650 and it's lack of 3G or WiFi support (unlike WiFi capability of many Pocket PC devices) means Treo 650 is what is should have been a year ago.
3. Poor marketing and reliability issues with European Treos has given it a bad name, despite being a fantastic product.
4. Microsoft have consistently won not because they are better, but when their competitors slipped up. Netscape had the chance to build webcentric apps into their browser (such as an icon for a shareable spreadsheet or similar), but lost their 'mojo'. So, today, the only innovative browser is Safari (not Firefox!) from Apple.
5. For Palm to make it big, they need to produce something that is basically a Treo 650 minus the antenna but plus WiFi, 3G (for Europe) and an iPod like internal hard drive so it can act as an entertainer and data pod. You MUST demolish your competition to stay ahead - as Apple have done with the iPod. Just plodding along gets you nowhere - slowly.
O'WONDERWe're working on it.
Take the Zaurus calendaring software, for instance. Being used to the Psion calendar software, I found the Zaurus one just too restrictive, and gave up on it pretty quick. Also tried using KOrganizer on the device, and sure it worked, and had plenty of features, but it was a terrible strain on the eyes.
The applications on the Zaurus are way too basic, lack integration, it's too hard to navigate the system, and at least my SL-C700 is not particularly stable either. The only reason I'm keeping it is because it's got a great hardware design (feels sturdy, has a usable keyboard, and a high-resolution screen), and good Japanese input support (which Sharp seem to have gotten right during those many years developing non-Linux-based PDAs). Thanks to these factors the device is useful for some tasks, but it's hardly indispensable, and I'm not interested in upgrading to a more recent model.
For a truly useful device I'd happily shell out $300, but I don't expect to be come across an attractive enough Linux handheld anytime soon. In the meantime, one can only hope that someone will release a Linux handheld with a truly solid OS, even if not all that featureful, shipped with full source code and a Linux-hosted SDK, included in the box. If the applications aren't there, at least it should be easy to start developing your own.
WinCE outsold Palm devices last quarter, that true, but remember these points:
1. They are counting ALL WinCE devices, including Palmtop computers.
2. PalmOne was still the #1 seller for the quarter (but when you add up all other PPC makers, they did outdo PalmOne, which is why PPC outsold PalmOS, despite PalmOne being #1)
3. The PalmOS still has greater marketshare when you count total units out there now.
I think it's a crying shame for the Palm community that almost a YEAR AGO, PalmSource made PalmOS 6 (Cobalt) Gold Master, and NOT A SINGLE licensee will use the OS in a device, even though it offers multithreading, native ARM support, anti-aliased text, truetype font support, and a host of other features.
I don't think Palm sales will take off until 2 things happen (I love Palm by the way...)
1. OS 6 comes out on devices and there are good conduits for it.
2. SOMEONE, SOMEWHERE makes conduits for the extra fields on the new PalmOne devices.
I have a tungsten T3, and I was happy to see that it now has repeating ToDos and that the Address Book supports multiple addresses. HOWEVER, I can't sync this data with ANYTHING other than Palm Desktop. Very frustrating, as we use Lotus Notes and work...
Now we can buy from PalmTwo?
/ \
\ / ASCII ribbon campaign for peace
x
/ \
Contrary to the marketing BS this Windows Smartphone Edition phone is NOT a PDA. It's a slightly more advanced than average cell phone. Here's what it can do that my current low-end standard cell phone (Samsung a660) cannot do: It can sync contacts, calendar, and email from Outlook; It has an external LCD; It has an excellent browser (IE kills all other microbrowsers); It has a SD slot. No handwriting recognition or integrated keyboard of any kind, and "naturally" no touchscreen display for the no stylus to use. Gawdawful GUI (even worse than Nokia's). Utterly unstable, lousy battery life, will lose all contact and other data at any given moment. I could go on.
Ultimate verdict: Not a PDA and a barely passable cell phone. Save some money and get a much better device (PDA + Phone) in the Treo 650 - Phone + PDA + BlueTooth + SD/IO + HighRes + Better camera with video (no time limit on clip) + NON-VOLITILE MEMORY!!!
1.Netcraft confirms:In Soviet Russia all your base welcomes a beowolf cluster of CowboyNeal overlords. 2.? 3.Profit!!1!
It's now the duty of virus writers to punish the MS lovers.
They that will not hear must feel.
MS Streets has been out for years, and is still the best of the lot. Same with the Maptech stuff for marine navigation.
Maybe you just got some bad batteries. My i600 lasts days on the battery. In fact, I havent had any of the problems you are describing.
That being said, I can't really recommend the phone. The main reason to get the phone is full internet/HTML support. This is a great feature! However, its not easy to rationalize the price for the service given how slow it is. It is almost always faster just to call someone and get the info you need rather than wait for the interent to kick in.
For example, you can get movie listings at moviephone.com which is great, but in the time it takes to get the page loaded up, you could call all the theatres and get listings. Or for example, you can get mapquest up, but by the time you are done fiddling, you could have gone to a gastation, bought a map, and got verbal diretions from 10 people.
Also, the WinCE interface is horribly clunky. I'm the only one who can use my phone because of all the virtual buttons you have to "click". The contacts list for autodial is a hilarious joke. Nobody else can use my phone because of its arcane interface. Which doesnt bother me really, but its pretty sad.
Let me start by saying that I love my Treo 600. It's the best "mobile device" I've ever had. But I didn't buy it for the Palm OS. In fact, that's my least favorite thing about it. I bought it because it was the first convergence device to "get it right." No one, at the time, had done the integration so well. No one had hardware that "just worked." And no one had a Smartphone/PDA option that worked so very well as a PHONE, in addition to having superb internet capabilities. With Blazer (a very nice browser, included) and VeriChat (MSN/AIM/etc.), and Newsgator Online Mobile Edition, I've got pretty much all the functionality I really want. BUT. My next device is probably not going to be the Treo 650. It's probably going to be the PPC-6601 (sold under the Audiovox brand in the US). Why? Partly because it offers superior hardware features that I want. But most of those I can get with the Treo 650 (better screen, bluetooth). Now, the 6601 still has a much higher resolution (640x480), better CPU & memory, better SDIO support, and an even better form factor (slide-out keyboard). But more importantly to me, it runs Windows Mobile. Before my Treo, I had an Ericcson T610 and an iPaq 2215, both with bluetooth. Having compared both OSes, the Windows Mobile platform is entirely superior for my needs. From an OS-level standpoint, it's quicker and more refined. It's also more reliable, in my experience. The interface is cleaner, and more functional. Despite the above commentor's opinion that Windows Mobile tries to use the "desktop methaphor" on a PDA is completely ludicrous. In fact, to use his example, when looking up an address, I would do it pretty much the same way on either device. I would hit the "contacts" button from the main screen, and begin typing the contact's name on the keyboard until the name I want is in view. Then I'd tap it, and have all of their information in front of me. That's true on the Treo 600, and it's true on the Windows Mobile phones I've seen. "To suggest that PocketPCs are intrinsically superior to equivalent Palm models is hilarious." I don't see why that would be hilarious, though I don't think anyone has done that, either. What I suggest is that assuming an equilivant form factor, battery life, and phone functionality (the first considerations for most people like me)... Windows Mobile wins. It does everything the Palm OS does and so much more. That includes better hardware add-on support, better networking support, better screen capabilities (Landscape mode, higher resolutions), Macromedia Flash support, .NET Framework support (only will matter to some), and better integration with business systems.
They have vastly superior multimedia capabilities, better internet software, better upgradeability (for instance, PalmOne has announced no plans to give Treo 600 users the software on the Treo 650, which includes Exchange support).
If you're interested, you can check out more on the PPC-6601 here:
http://www.sprint.com/business/products/phones/ppc 6601_allPcsPhones.jsp
That version does not include built-in WiFi, which that model does in most other markets. Some of us are holding out hope that Sprint will add it back in for the consumer version sold in stores (to be announced very soon). But sadly, it's something we may have to live without.
http://msdn.microsoft.com/embedded/usewinemb/ce/su pproc/default.aspx
.NET (including 4.2 and newly 5.0) supports countless processors, including ARMS, MIPS, PowerPC, and x86.
Windows CE
Man do I wish Apple would create a palmtop. It is a tough market, but at least Apple seems to understand things a bit more than palm (Palm is losing because they totally dropped, and continue to drop the ball on their OS functionality.
I get annoyed at the comparisons between closed source and open source. When people think of closed source, they only think of Microsoft, which does things wrong (and annoyingly). I have had a palm since 2002 and I love it, because it doesn't have all the bells and whistles, it is simple and quick. I first bought a visor pro 16mb, after I dropped and cracked that, I bought a palm IIIx, if I drop and break this one, I'll just buy another one for $40, no big deal. Its a shame manufacturers don't value durablitiy in their products. They don't build durable products because people don't want them. I do, though. I used to love my Motorola i700, I could throw it at the ground as hard as I wanted and it was fine. Check these products out. http://www.symbol.com/products/mobile_computers/mo bile_palm.html
Note: I know I spelled right wrong, I ran out of space
"brxref
If I had five minutes with Palm here would be my suggestions:
Cut back on the number of models and release new models or upgrades on a consistent schedule like twice a year. They currently have nine active models with many overlapping features. It's time to cut back to four maximum. Entry, Consumer, Business/Professional and Phone.
Common features for all four would be:
Two SDIO ports: Most users would use one port for a SD memory card and the other for a 802.11b or Bluetooth card but you could use two memory cards or two networking cards, your choice. Also be forthcoming with the specs and API so third party card makers (like SanDisk) can quickly make compatible products. Currently Palm is obstructing third parties from supporting the Palm in some vein attempt to be the sole provider of such addons at a premium price.
No wireless networking built in. Depend on SD Bluetooth or 802.11b cards. The standards are moving so fast building something in would diminish it's useful life. If a user feels they can get a longer life out of a product many times they're willing to pay more.
Minimum 32M on board memory: 32M allows enough room for contacts, schedules and OS upgrades.
Internal rechargeable battery.
IR port. I know the IR port is tired technology but is still very useful for quick transfers. Besides, while most countries regulate radio communications like 802.11x or Bluetooth, IR is accepted everywhere.
Back lit screen. This is a no brainer. In this day and age selling a decent PDA without it just pisses people off. Even low end models need to be comfortable to use.
Optional "Thumbboard" attachable keyboard. Plugs into the universal port and can be used while moving around. Sometimes pen input is better and sometimes (like using IRC or writing an email) a keyboard is better. Give people the choice to quickly switch back and forth. The phone model would be the exception since it would have the keyboard built in.
Upgradable OS. Turn out updates twice a year. Charge for new features. Updating should be able to be easily done in a similar fashion to a normal hotsync. I know the low end Palm's OS can't be updated which isn't right.
A better hotsync manager. Unfortunately one needs to be logged in to their computer to hotsync. Give us a better hotsync application (for at least Mac and MS Windows, GNU/Linux being a real plus) that allows users to hotsync so long as their machine is running.
Use XML for all data files and allow the Palm to be mounted as an USB drive (like the T5). If someone wants to write a different hotsync application make it easy for them. If you're lucky someone might just come up with a great FOSS replacement which you can adopt and save some R&D money. XML allows programmers to easily integrate their network or web based applications with the user's data. Imagine updating your schedule via the web and (assuming you have an active wireless network connection) hitting hotsync to update. FOSS is your friend, not the enemy.
The same case for all models except the phone. The current Tungsten E / T5 case fits well in one's hand. The "one case" concept allows third parties to standardize on one size. One size means less R&D and lower cost per unit sold.
HyperCard. Ok, not HyperCard but something just like it. The early days of HyperCard were wild. For the first time the common person had access to a simple to use RAD environment. Sure, many of the stac
"And a voice was screaming: 'Holy Jesus! What are these goddamn animals?'" - HST
The treo 600 for me was a nightmare. I got a Symbian device, and have loved it. The interface is different but nice. I also had a nightmare happen, I liked the 600 at first, dropped when running out the door smack on the attena. It started acting funny. I took it to the store made my case, palm says no way no how can I get a exchange or replacement. I told the dealer the can have it. I got a p900 wich is damn sexy. I have very little to compare it with as far as other symbian os phones, It has issues for sure. Reading my ebooks is a bitch. The screens rectangular shape makes internetting interesting. Other then that it does anything I could want, take notes places phone calls, and is bluetoothed wich to me is nice.
I quote:
Linux ... a valient 0.9%, off slightly from last years' 1.9%.
Off slightly? Off by 50% ! It's like your paycheck (you do get one, right?) was cut in half, and THEN some more ! The only thing "slightly" about it is, you aren't getting any (put your open source widget thing here) in the first place !
LinuxUsers -- L'users for short !
It's a pummeling, not a shellacing, whatever that really is.
.
Put that in your bonghole and smoke it !
Mod current up !
It's a neutering, or spaying, depending on the case.
You wrote:
Harry8 is completely right about "independant" market (etc.)
However, I would say that if he can't even SPELL independent, he probably doesn't have much of a clue about that sort of thing.
Because Linux'users don't HAVE $ to buy PDA. If L'users had money, they wouldn't be using Linux as OS.
It's like eating at McDonalds. People do because it's cheap. L'users eat in McDonalds dumpter because it's free, and they let you know they do. Weird L'users. Buy from thrift store? Do you tell people you do? Weird L'users.
1. .NET Compact Framework - I can use the same code I use for the .NET applications I use.
2. ActiveSync - Keeps my data synchronized in real time. Not just when I push the sync button.
Which Palm?
PalmSource have developed a new OS which has been out for-frigging-ever. OS6, or Cobalt, would be a very nice thing, if someone would take it up.
So the OS certainly isn't stagnant.
PalmOne, on the other hand, have expressed no interest in releasing any Cobalt-based devices for a very long time.
Karma: It's all a bunch of tree-huggin' hippy crap!
I keep hearing all this talk on how PocketPC is more versatile, but not once have I actually heard someone explain an application which can be done on PocketPC but not on Palm.
As a Palm user, I'm really eager to know about this, because I was having a tough decision picking between the two, and in the end I discovered that both units had about the same capabilities, with the lack of one feature in Palm OS (multithreading) which I still don't consider to be very useful in a PDA.
Karma: It's all a bunch of tree-huggin' hippy crap!
The only thing worse than Windoze sucking badly on your desktop, is Windoze sucking while following you around.