An Update on Patrick Volkerding

Best of luck by Anonymous Coward · 2004-11-26 02:33 · Score: 5, Insightful

I, like most of slashdot, send my well-wishes.

Re:Best of luck by Anonymous Coward · 2004-11-26 02:47 · Score: 0

Seconded. The first distro of Linux I ever used was Slackware, and that served as a catalyst for much greater things in my future. Pat: You're the man, so don't lose.
Re:Best of luck by BLAG-blast · 2004-11-26 03:14 · Score: 1

I'll bet he's fat.
How much?
I'll bet you are wrong about most things.

--
M0571y H@rml355.
Re:Best of luck by BoldAC · 2004-11-26 03:30 · Score: 5, Insightful

Okay, I send my best wishes... but I am worried.

I'm a doctor at a teaching hospital so we see wierd stuff all the time. I'll give you my sideline quarterbacking of the situation.

First, you have a patient who is trying to diagnosis and treat his own condition. A good analogy would be a newbie blindly editing his/her registry. I know its the "hacker" way, but hacking your own body can be dangerous. It's difficult to reboot or reformat the body as a system.

Second, you can't have pulmonary "pops." If you pop a bleb, you develop a pneumothorax... and you are sick as poo. This can be seen on a chest X-ray and typically would need a chest tube to prevent respiratory failure.

He talks about going to Mayo... and multiple ERs. Doctor-shopping raises multiple red-flags.

His sedimentation rate (ESR) is normal. It is very, very difficult to have an infection or inflammatory process with a normal sed rate.

Obviously, I have not examined this guy. He might have a new disease that completely goes against science as we know it. But people come to us for rare medical problems all the time... we love it. When we find something rare, we jump around giving each other high-5s. We spend tons of research and government money trying to figure out these rare case. However...

I'm just not buying in this case.
Re:Best of luck by Davak · 2004-11-26 03:45 · Score: 2, Interesting

Supporting evidence:

ftp://ftp.slackware.com/pub/slackware/slackware-cu rrent/PAT-NEEDS-YOUR-HELP.txt

Rodney has no ability
to directly admit me to a hospital without first sending me to an
infectious disease MD there who would have to agree with all of this.
I have an appointment on Friday.

What did the ID physician say?

All the cases of Actinomycosis I have treated have been pretty easy to diagnose.

Let's just assume for one moment... that this is not physiological possible. (Supratentorial, mental, depression, etc.)

All of this attention is just feeding into the underlying mental illness! By posting this on slashdot, you are blowing this thing way, way out of control.

Why would he do this? Could it be for the free press?

http://www.theinquirer.net/?article=19719

http://www.smh.com.au/news/Breaking/Slackware-Li nu x-founder-ill-seeks-help/2004/11/17/1100574504192. html?oneclick=true

Who posts their medical problems out in the public in this way?

By posting this... you are doing more harm than good.
Re:Best of luck by Anonymous Coward · 2004-11-26 03:59 · Score: 0

I have a feeling slashdot is just what he needs, many geeks here have academic contacts, many of whom will be highly skilled in the feild.
Re:Best of luck by Vellmont · 2004-11-26 04:11 · Score: 2, Insightful

So you honestly think you can make a judgement that this guy isn't sick (and is just a nut) from two postings from the patient on the internet? Why is it there's this heavy tendency among some doctors to not believe the patient? Perhaps his self diagnosis is in error and his own attempts at doctoring are poor, but from his own descriptions it sounds like there's something wrong with him and his doctors can't figure out what it is.

--
AccountKiller
Re:Best of luck by iive · 2004-11-26 04:18 · Score: 2, Insightful

I'm sure Pat would be happy if you could examine him. Could you please provide your contact infromation to him, as he had requested in his first call for help?
Re:Best of luck by vortimax · 2004-11-26 04:24 · Score: 5, Insightful

>First, you have a patient who is trying to
>diagnosis and treat his own condition.

This is usually the only way to get something fixed these days. Most doctors are very resistant to doing anything that could be called diagnosis. Their answer to everything is usually to ask you a few questions, interrupt you after hearing the first sympton they can connect with some common malady, and then decree what's wrong with you. As in Patrick's case, it's common for the doctors to ignore facts which don't fit (after all, how could stupid patients possibly know anything about all that hard "doctor stuff").

Most doctors seems to diagnose everything I get as "something that's going around" and prescribe antibiotics. I usually have to do their research for them and then come back for another visit, demanding the specific tests needed to diagnose the problem (which sometimes requires moving to a more cooperative doctor), and then insist on proper treatment based on the test results.

Fortunately, many medical texts are available online which contain the information needed to self-diagnose. But you still need a competent doctor to perform or authorize tests and prescribe treatments.

Over the years I've found it very rare to meet doctors who actually take an interest in diagnosing an illness by using specific tests to determine the cause instead of just prescribing antibiotics. They are out there, however, and worth looking for. Just don't expect to find one easily. Most doctors seem to be lazy, disinterested, or simply not capable of diagnosing patients. Sturgeon's rule (90% of everything is crap) applies to the field of medicine as much as any other field.

When I find a doctor that resists doing tests that could result in a diagnosis, in favor of randomly prescribing common drugs, and who argues against "doctor shopping" when a doctor is obviously wrong, it raises major red flags for me as a patient and is a good indication that a better doctor is needed ASAP. I hope Patrick can find some competent doctors in time. They're rare.
Re:Best of luck by qcomp · 2004-11-26 04:24 · Score: 4, Insightful

First, you have a patient who is trying to diagnosis and treat his own condition. A good analogy would be a newbie blindly editing his/her registry. I know its the "hacker" way, but hacking your own body can be dangerous. It's difficult to reboot or reformat the body as a system.
I think that's a bad analogy: if he was treating himself, it might be like editing the registry. But recording symptoms and diagnosing himself is more like reading (and trying to understand) error messages. That's what even a newbie could and should do. -- Especially if his hacker friend is too busy to listen to his problems...
My best best wishes to Patrick. I hope he gets well soon.
Re:Best of luck by jdybnis · 2004-11-26 04:30 · Score: 2, Insightful

Your's is one of the few posts here by a doctor that doesn't come across as dismissive and arrogant. If I need medical care I hope I have a doctor with similar temperament. Nevertheless if you ignore his self-diagnosis, but assume that he is accurately reporting his symptoms, it is clear that there is something wrong.

Even if what's wrong is not really something life threatening, it is clear that he thinks it is and he is terrified because of it. That should be addressed by the doctors he goes to. Even if it is not rational, or medically justified, his fear should be addressed as a serious symptom of whatever is wrong. This is no different than treating pain. Pain is subjective, it is a symptom of something else, but when it becomes debilitating it is treated directly. Fear should be no different.
Re:Best of luck by BoldAC · 2004-11-26 04:33 · Score: 4, Informative

Look, I can appreciate how important this guy is. I respect all of his accomplishments and the things that he has done to help the linux movement. When his story was first posted on slashdot, several of the hospital network gurus came up to me and asked me about it in our CIS meeting.

I assumed that this was posted (like everything else) on slashdot to generate discussion and comments. I did so. If you don't like my opinion, you can set me as your foe and choose to ignore my future posts.

If you were to reread my post, I wasn't giving advice. I was just giving my opinion of his situation.
Re:Best of luck by antizeus · 2004-11-26 04:37 · Score: 1

I read that message four times and failed to detect any medical advice. The closest thing to advice I can see is being suspicious about self-diagnosis and doctor-shopping.
Perhaps there's somebody else who should be quiet.

--
-- $SIGNATURE
Re:Best of luck by iive · 2004-11-26 04:39 · Score: 1

There is an black humor joke about your kind of doubts:
A doctor is comming to work and ask the nurse "Anything new". The nurse answers "Yes doctor, the sham from room number 3 had died tonight".

I seriously doubt man like Pat could do this just for more advertisment. He must be really desperate, in order to use the comunity in such extraordinary way.
Re:Best of luck by Anonymous Coward · 2004-11-26 04:54 · Score: 0

You idiot, he's not trying self diagnosis; are you illiterate?
He's just researching for himself and suggesting things; he's got a right to his own opinion. The number of people who have died from misdiagnosis from doctors is countless.
I hate doctors; you're overpriced, self absorbed and have no idea how much you really have to learn.
I'm sure there are nice ones, but I've never met one with fair prices.
Re:Best of luck by InternationalCow · 2004-11-26 05:09 · Score: 4, Interesting

I second this. See my previous posts in this regard. A mitral valve prolapse in itself in unspecific. However, some signs noted here (and there I politely disagree with the parent post) MAY point in the direction of bacterial endocarditis. One can have that without elevated ESR. CRP should be elevated too. The way to diagnose this is cardiac ultrasound and multiple blood cultures taken when running a fever of more than 38.5 deg centigrade. That said, I agree with the parent in the red flag department. The self-diagnosis and doctor-hopping don't help. As noted in the previous Patrick Volkerding thread, he should stick with one doctor and let him/her check things out. If no abnormalities are found, the chance of there being a new rare disease is small. I know, because I have indentified several rare "new" diseases myself. Take my word for it: that is non-trivial and requires much double- and triple-checking. I'm worried, too. Meanwhile, my best wishes for a speedy resolution.

--
----- One learns to itch where one can scratch.
Re:Best of luck by Anonymous Coward · 2004-11-26 05:18 · Score: 2, Insightful

I'm a retired MD too. My best advice: go back to the Mayo where you have been and the medicine is at the best level humanity can provide. And do what they advise without any additional doctor shopping. Your faculties are not functioning at their customary and proper level. This old saw applies just as much to patients: "A doctor who treats himself has a fool for a patient and a physician."
Re:Best of luck by BoldAC · 2004-11-26 05:46 · Score: 4, Insightful

Pat doesn't need _another_ doctor. He has had multiple physicians already see him, order labs, radiographis and do H&Ps. He says he visited Mayo. He says he has seen an internal medicine (and maybe an infectious disease) physician. He needs to figure out which of those physicians he trusts... and stick with one.

If I were to see him and if I were to decide that he didn't have some horrible medical illness... would he believe me?

I would likely be included as one of those damn, nonbelieving doctors in his next posted update. Neither he nor I would gain anything from that.
Re:Best of luck by Fnkmaster · 2004-11-26 05:49 · Score: 2, Informative

While I appreciate some of your points and have no reason to disagree with any of your medical analysis, your points about self-diagnosing and doctor-shopping are way off base.

I have gone through this several times with my mother, who has had colon cancer for about 4 years now. In her case, the initial diagnosis was not the problem, that was crystal clear. But when it came to treatment - yes, we did LOTS of doctor shopping and had multiple independent doctors (who were not active clinicians anymore) working as our advisors. Why? Because oncology isn't an exact science and lots of opinions differed substantially. And we are talking about the best doctors at the topmost institutions (we live in New York, so Sloan-Kettering, New York Hospital, Columbia-Presyterian, etc., and eventually in other cities as well).

At the time the opinion of several top-notch oncologists (including Lenny Saltz at Sloan-Kettering) was that she had less than a year to live. She's still around and doing well 4 years later, because we eventually got a surgical consult with a supposedly "fringe" surgical oncologist in Washington DC, Dr. Paul Sugarbaker. His work seems to be vaguely disrespected in the broader medical community because he selects patients based on criteria that they don't like - namely that they have to be young enough and healthy enough to survive and recover from extensive surgery.

Then there was the more recent event where a prominent surgeon in New York operated on her again and insisted that a new tumor she had was a primary cholangiocarcinoma, which the pathologists initially confirmed. I collected evidence, consulted with physicians, gathered old tumor slides and arranged for a comparative pathology analysis with the blessing of her (thankfully cooperative) current oncologist and sure enough, the surgeon was absolutely wrong (it was the same tumor tissue, mutation types and so on, the pathologists had misinterpreted the die stain results to reach the conclusions that the surgeon "wanted").

Had it not been for my insistent diagnostic work, my mother's recurrent cancer would have been misdiagnosed and treated with the wrong drugs. I have also caught several medical errors of other sorts over the last several years. I have unfortunately learned that the only way to get random residents (who are usually the most uncooperative doctors) to listen is to smack them down with a really obnoxious statement about where I went to college (Harvard) and put them in their place. More senior doctors usually know enough to recognize the limitations in their own knowledge and more importantly in the amount of time they have to allocate to each patient, and are usually more cooperative.

Anyway, doctor shopping itself shouldn't raise red flags. In my mother's case the shopping was mostly for treatment options, but I can imagine if the disease was itself rare or difficult to diagnose, one might have to shop around for diagnoses.

I have seen one case among people I know of a paranoid person who doctor shopped until she got the diagnosis she was looking for, which the rest of her doctors believed was wrong - and in that case the doctor-shopping was a sign of hypochondria. In all other cases, it's been justified, and generally the result of my friends being smarter than many of the arrogant doctors who've treated them. I don't claim to have an easy method for separating the hypochondriacs from the reasonably concerned patient who hasn't received a properly comprehensive diagnosis, but I'd say it's far safer to assume that a patient isn't a hypochondriac until proven otherwise, to avoid killing a legitimately concerned patient because they raise supposed "red flags" for you.
Re:Best of luck by madmaxx · 2004-11-26 05:51 · Score: 4, Interesting

I actually had a much different experience, but it was at a children's hospital that was also used for training. The doctors there worked with us (the parents), as if we were part of their team. There were at least a dozen doctors, and each of them would walk us through test results, and didn't ignore the "what about {n}?" questions, to the point that new tests were ordered when things appeared to be missing.

As the doctors were baffled by his condition, they were open to our suggestions and ideas. We were even able to review his chart (and ask questions) whenever we wanted (which is a lot different than most adult-hospitals I've been to).

What impressed me was the huge set of possibilities that the doctors had to consider in their decision tree. Minute facts about our son's case would shift the tree significantly, and the doctors were able to handle this large data set (and the changes) with ease. Their domain is many times more complex than software development, based on the size of the data, the quality of tools, and the integrity of the data logging (people tell many stories). Even better, these doctors were able to make me feel like an equal in a very difficult situation. That in itself is a hard problem.

Over the course of our son's time in the hospital, his condition was characterized in 3 ways. The first two didn't sit well with us, as we had experienced his episodes (heart attacks) first-hand. The doctors trusted us that the diagnosis didn't seem to fit the experience, and they persisted in asking us questions, and analysing the test results until something fit. It was amazing.

I've had other hospital experiences that were much worse, but the good ones are out there.

--
mx
Re:Best of luck by 0racle · 2004-11-26 05:57 · Score: 1

I was in a rush to get out of the house this morning, advice was the wrong word to use, opinion would have been better.

I am worried. I'm a doctor...
you can't have pulmonary "pops."
very, very difficult to have an infection or inflammatory process with a normal sed rate.
See from this, I get that hes dieing, and he must be, since the poster is a doctor.

Obviously, I have not examined this guy
Oh, so he was talking out of his ass. The only difference between me saying, this and that can not happen, or that this and that means this, is that his ass has been educated and therefore has the perception that he must know what he's talking about. That is why its worse for a doctor to just say off-hand things relating to someones health. On top of all that, he goes on to say I'm just not buying in this case. Oh I'm sure that makes everyone feel so much better, especially the poster since he had the amazing wisdom to be able to say that everything anyone has told Pat is wrong.

From what I see here, he's seeing a doctor already, these updates are just for the sake of the community who would be interested in seeing Pat get better. It would be more adventagous to refrain from doing anything more then passing on our best wishes and disscusing the direction that Slackware has taken.

On that note, I'm glad to see some others as official patch contirbuters, Slackware must be a huge undertaking for one person to stay on top of, so this seems like a very good move.

--
"I use a Mac because I'm just better than you are."
Re:Best of luck by BoldAC · 2004-11-26 05:57 · Score: 4, Interesting

You describe a major problem in medicine today... I call it the "acute care" syndrome.

People get sick (usually with a viral illness), they go to the doctor and want a quick fix. The doctor is given two choices...

1. "It's a virus." No antibotic and educate the patient as much as possible.
2. "It's an 'infection'" and get the patient out with an antibotic.

So if doctors do the right thing and do #1, then the patients are unhappy. Doctors get tired of fighting for no reason and get bitter. This happens everyday in every "acute care" center in the US.

Now think of this in relation other common diseases that doctors can't fix. They can either prescribe different medications or they can try to educate the patient.

The only time education is appreciated and believed is when it comes from a physician that you know and trust. But who has a doctor (dentist, lawyer, mechanic, etc.) that they personally know anymore?

Yeah, it's sad for us too...
Re:Best of luck by 53cur!ty · 2004-11-26 06:00 · Score: 3, Informative

Please excuse my sarcasm and distaste in advance.

Patrick, don't listen to this #$%@ doctor, keep reading and fighting for your health. If you are reading this patrick please remember to remind your doctor's you have a brain, and read up on patient rights. If you get really frustrated ask to speak to the Hospital Administrator the next time you are in the ER. Nothing says action like calling the Money, I mean boss. If it is the weekend ask for the nurse or doctor admin that is covering the hospital (not just the ward).

Now to the response...

Being a simple-minded newbie like Patrick I can't imagine how I can attempt to respond to...a doctor on the subject of medicine!

I will vouch for your credentials since you start by exposing your ego! "you have a patient who is trying to diagnosis and treat his own condition"

A few questions:

How could an intelligent patient that is not a doctor possibly understand all this medical stuff! How could the patient understand what they are experiencing! How is it a doctor can read and contribute to /. but a patient cannot read and contribute to their own care?

I am not just spouting crap here, I am truly empathetic for Patrick's plight. I have had years of medical problems (now I'm fine) and ten times as many frustrations with egotistical doctors that don't listen. I could easily write a book of my experiences recounting when doctors where down right wrong.

I am not saying that the patient is always right however reasons should be given why they are wrong, with the proof to back it up (journals, etc). The patient knows his/her body best.

The 'pop' Patrick described could have been his mitral valve failing, which would not show on an x-ray. So there is just one counter diagnosis to your words of wisdom.

Let me demonstrate the extent an ego can interfere with care. My with had to be on coumadin (blood thinner) after about 3 weeks she began to develop sever pain in here right leg and foot. We called the doctor, he immediately put her on nerve pain medicine attributing it to a pinched nerve. The pain increased over the course of a week (with the new meds). In frustration I (close your ears children) began to research coumadin side-effects. The doctor swore that was impossible and that side effects to coumadin would present themselves within the first week. (he was wrong, read on). My reason for thinking it was the coumadin was the pain increased immediately after a shot and decreased steadily until the next shot. Seemed logical but a doctor would surely know better!

Desperate to help my wife I called the drug company who makes coumadin, I got their medical advice line (for doctors). I didn't identify myself but let them assume, after all the reading I had done I could talk the talk. Regardless after 3 hours on the phone with a doctor and pharmacist from the drug company (longer then our doctor had ever spent with us). They diagnosed my wife with a rare reaction to coumadin known as 'Purple Toe Syndrome'. They faxed me 30+ pages of case studies, documentation, etc. to back up their diagnosis. I read through it all, it was correct.

You know what the doctor did when I called him with the evidence? First he wouldn't get on the phone. I told his secretary he had 3 minutes to call or I called the administrator with the proof (he called in 2). He refused to believe me or the drug companies documentation saying well I have never heard/seen such a thing! Despite my wife recovering exactly as the drug company described, the doctor to this day still refuses to acknowledge he was wrong.

This is who you are dealing with Patrick. I hope you have someone to help you fight since it takes as much energy to get good health care as it does being sick.

God speed on your recovery, continue to ask questions, you are intelligent and more interested in your care then the doctors are.

Remember when you leave their office/ward, the doctor see more patien
Re:Best of luck by francisew · 2004-11-26 06:00 · Score: 2, Interesting

No clue how to reach Pat, so I'll assume he will be thoroughly reading the responses to the post. I understand his email would otherwise become unuseable.

I noticed last week that in British Columbia (Canadian west coast), a tropical fungal infection has been on the rise. It's often misdiagnosed, and it's been a bit of a problem in B.C. recently.

Take a look: CBC story from 23 Nov 2004, and CBC story from 25 Nov 2004.

Cryptococcus neoformans infection seems to cause serious lung and CNS problems. It's also contracted from spores in the air, so it could explain how it could have come from nowhere.

Whatever the problem turns out to be, good luck in getting better. Have you tried going to the media in your area? *Mystery Illness Baffles Doctors* I'm sure some local health professionals will help then! Perhaps it would also help to *ONLY* answer questions the doctors ask, instead of giving a huge number of details (some of which may be completely irrelevant to the core problem) that overwhelm them.
Re:Best of luck by BoldAC · 2004-11-26 06:03 · Score: 4, Informative

Those are very kind words... and I appreciate them greatly.

One of the reasons I stay in a teaching hospital is so I will not be pressured by the marketplace to see X number of patients per day.

Sometimes I see 4 in a morning... sometimes I see only one or two patients. I am in a unique position.

By the average person allowing HMOs, insurance, and the government to try to control medical costs... the system is now completely broken. Fossils like me hide out in teaching colleges where, for now, we have some insulation from the marketplace.
Re:Best of luck by coaxial · 2004-11-26 06:07 · Score: 4, Insightful

Fortunately, many medical texts are available online which contain the information needed to self-diagnose.

When I read this I was reminded of what my abnormal psych professor said at the start of class. "Don't start reading ahead. Don't just open the DSM-IV and start reading about wierd psychological problems. You're all perfectly normal and sane. When we study obsessive compulsive disorders, all of you are going to start thinking, 'I have these symptoms. I have OCD!'. You don't. When we start start reading about schizophrenia and people talking to themselves, and hearing voices, you're going to think, 'Wow! I talk to myself all the time. I'm schizo!'. You're not. None of you have the training or experience to diagnose anything. Don't act like you do."

Everytime you change doctors, you're starting the diagnosis over at step one. When you come in and say "I have disease X. Give me xyzzy, that new perscription drug I've seen on tv." The doctor thinks, "hypochondriac".

The reason he initially thinks it's "the thing going around", is because 90% of the time it is. Only when that treatment fails, will the doctor move off that. Instead of actually going back to the doctor in two weeks like he suggested, you go to another doctor who says, "Hypochondriac. Take the antibiotic and come back in two weeks if it's not working." Instead of moving to step 2, you've decided to shop around until you find someone who is willing to start at step 6. No wonder it's hard for you to find a doctor.
Re:Best of luck by Anonymous Coward · 2004-11-26 06:16 · Score: 1

The guy is obviously a hypochondriac. The thing is that doctors see this stuff all the time. People complain that doctors dont take this seriously, but they dont realize the number of people who create their symptoms in their head. Hypochondriacs should never read a PDR, as they list all reported side effects for drugs. This includes things like hallucinations for pepcid (an ulcer med). Obviously the hallucinations were most likely not related at all to the med, but some people reported it.

This man has been to the MAYO clinic for Gods sake! I think they are a little more qualified than him to know if he has a health problem. I agree about the doctor shopping bit. It is insane to keep shopping around for a doctor til you find one that agrees with you. If someone is not a doctor themselves, they should be going to a doctor for their expert opinion. By doctor shopping you make that expert opinion pointless.

I could go on and on, but this whole thing is turning into a joke. The man needs to be on some meds, but not for an infection.
Re:Best of luck by BoldAC · 2004-11-26 06:18 · Score: 4, Informative

Quote: "One can have that without elevated ESR."

I completely agree... thanks for clearing that up. I'll even support your clarification for you. :)

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cm d= Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=9108181

The objective of this study was to evaluate the sensitivity of C-reactive protein (CRP) elevation compared to erythrocyte sedimentation rate (ESR), leucocyte count and thrombocyte count in the diagnosis of infective endocarditis (IE). It was designed as a prospective study of suspected episodes of IE in adults in tertiary care at a university-affiliated department of infectious diseases. In 89 episodes of IE, CRP was available from the start of treatment. Median age was 66 years, 45 were men and 44 women. Median CRP concentration was found to be 90 (range 0-357) mg/l with only 4% normal values. Episodes involving native valves had higher CRP than episodes occurring with prosthetic valves. Staphylococcal origin, short duration of symptoms, short duration of fever and highest recorded temperature all correlated to higher CRP levels. The CRP response was also prominent among patients > 70 years old. Among non-responders, a few cases with simultaneous cirrhosis were noted. ESR was less sensitive than CRP, with a normal level in 28% of the episodes. It was concluded that CRP determination is superior to erythrocyte sedimentation rate, leucocyte count and thrombocyte count in the diagnosis of infective endocarditis.
Re:Best of luck by Metteyya · 2004-11-26 06:30 · Score: 1

Have you actually read first Patrick's mail about his health condition and doctor's inability to make proper diagnosis?? If it wasn't for Patrick's hacker way, he wouldn't have known what's up with him even today. It's easy to say that self-diagnosis is wrong and he sould visit a doctor - but the thing is, he visited lot of them and none of them was able to find what's up until Patrick spent some time on Google!
Re:Best of luck by Anonymous Coward · 2004-11-26 06:36 · Score: 0

So true. I thought I had RSI after self-diagnosing using information online, but the root cause of my problems was psychological.

Now I doubt whether any case of RSI ("repetitive strain injury") is not psychological. Typing on your keyboard is not a health hazard! Nor is having "poor" posture.
Re:Best of luck by Xyrus · 2004-11-26 06:38 · Score: 1

Just out of curiousity, I did some poking around on the mitral valve prolapse he has apparently "developed".

The chest pains, faintness, shortness of breath are spot on for panic attacks as a result of a hyperactive autonomic nervous system, which coincindentally appear more often in people with such heart issues as mitral valve prolapse syndrome.

Other symptoms may include:
Migraine headaches
Dizzy, spacy feeling
Difficulty concentrating
Balance problems, vertigo
Insomnia, sleep disturbances
Hyperventilation; shortness of breath
Palpitations of the heart; skipped or irregular heart beat
Panic attacks, with pounding heart beat
Phantom chest pain with no apparent physiological cause
Hypersensitive startle reflex
Cold sweats
Cold hands and feet
Numbness or tingling in the fingers or toes
Bowel urgency, diarrhea, constipation
Sensitivity to drugs, including alcohol, caffeine, and medications.

People with mitral valve prolapse are especially sensitive to all kinds of drugs and medications.

Some triggers:
Hypoglycemia
Adrenal instability, with hyperactivity followed by adrenal exhaustion
Hypothyroidism
Chemical sensitivities
Food reactions
Fluctuating sex hormones, especially estrogen, causing worsened symptoms of PMS and menopause
Magnesium deficiency

IANAMD but after reading his description, it sounds more like a stressed out person having repeated panic attacks with the flu. :)

There's a ton of info on this on the web.

~X~

--
~X~
Re:Best of luck by matman · 2004-11-26 07:16 · Score: 1

A doctor shouldn't say, "you don't have some horrible medical illness" if the patient has symptoms that (s)he believes are significant. Being unable to explain symptoms does not mean that there is no cause for the symptoms. If a doctor runs out of ideas, they should be honest about that and help to find another professional who may have useful ideas. This is the way to help people - giving up does not help and causes doctor shopping.

If a patient comes to you who has seen other professionals, who have done tests, I hope that doctors don't start at the top of the diagnoses tree... Doctors should phone the other professional and get the patient's history.
Re:Best of luck by J.+T.+MacLeod · 2004-11-26 07:20 · Score: 1

I would likely be included as one of those damn, nonbelieving doctors in his next posted update. Neither he nor I would gain anything from that.

No, but if something is, indeed, wrong with him, then neither of you would gain anything from you telling him there's nothing wrong and simply leaving it at that.
Re:Best of luck by LnxAddct · 2004-11-26 07:51 · Score: 1

Maybe they couldn't find anything wrong for a reason... I'm not saying intentional or unintentionally, but I've seen a lot of people think they have something life threatening turn out to be nothing and once they start reading about some of the diseases out there...its all the sudden "OMG! I have a few bumps that look like that", or "I swear my heart feels heavy, just like this describes.", alot of it is psychological. I have no doubt that he's sick, but it might not be as bad as he's making it out to be.
Regards,
Steve
Re:Best of luck by DjCheeto · 2004-11-26 07:57 · Score: 1

Lets analogize this to the IT world. Say you have an web app for your company that isn't working. The company is loosing millions of dollars every hour that it's down, the product is dying. You're the admin/developer and you check it out, you glance at the code and dont see any immediate bugs, the web server is listening on the right port, etc etc, you spend about an hour looking at it and cant find anything wrong so what do you do?
Tell them, "I dont see anything wrong you hypochondriacs!" ??? Obviously something is wrong, the product isn't working, money is being lost. What he needs is a doctor that is devoted to helping him, one that says "Ok, there is something seriously wrong as you're having problems standing for too long and just developed a murmer out of nowhere, we're gonna keep trying and debugging until we figure this out."

perhaps it isn't a infection, but geez, why can't doctors be more like Unix admins? I subscribe to many mailing lists and sit on irc and I see people trying at fixing things sometimes for weeks and months on end, never giving up and then eventually they figure it out. If Unix admins were like doctors, well, I dont want to think about that...
Re:Best of luck by Kismet · 2004-11-26 08:04 · Score: 4, Interesting

Hear, hear.

I once got sick enough where I thought I was paying for my sins before I died. I got on the Internet to see what my problem was, and had myself convinced that I had acute pancreatitis.

So I went to the doctor, with a semi-knowledge of acute pancreatitis, and described some of the symptoms I had read about. What was the result? Well, the doctor thought I might have acute pancreatitis. We did a rather expensive battery of tests to check for pancreatitis, kidney stones, gallstones, etc. etc. Nothing turned up.

By that evening I felt fine. It turned out to be some simple gastritis (probably due to some NSAIDs I was taking - without doctor supervision - for my tendonitis).

I sent myself to the ER because I tried diagnosing my own problem. I was fine, but I had to pay the price. It ain't cheap.
Re:Best of luck by Anonymous Coward · 2004-11-26 08:11 · Score: 0

did he actually say that? no
he didnt
Re:Best of luck by tzanger · 2004-11-26 08:23 · Score: 2, Funny

Sturgeon's rule (90% of everything is crap)

So Sturgeon was a proctologist, was he?
Re:Best of luck by barista · 2004-11-26 08:33 · Score: 1

IANAD, but I work with several ophthalmologists at a teaching hospital. We get lots of people who call on the phone with problems, but when we try to make an appointment, they can't come in. They seem to want to be treated over the phone, or maybe to be reassured. The problem is, the doctor has to be able to see the patient in order to figure out what is going on.

A typical thing is for a patient to call up and say "I can't see." Unfortunately, this could mean several things. Some might be easy to treat, some are more serious. The problem is the doctor won't know until they can take a look at the eyes and find out what is going on. Strangely, (I've never been able to figure it out), some people don't want to take the time out to see a doctor. It's too inconvenient to come in.

Anyway, diagnosing someone via email is the same as diagnosing someone over the phone. It's unethical and to a certain extent illegal. And with our litigious society, fear of malpractice would probably make doctors even more hesitatnt to give out medical advice online.

For Patrick, I think your best bet to get it figured out is to pick one doctor and stay with him or her. Teaching hospitals (usually run through a university medical school) do get a lot of hard cases, and might be a better option for you. If you feel the doctor isn't able to figure it out, ask him or her to recommend someone for a second opinion. Most doctors will accept this, and some might even recommend it to you.

BTW, where a doctor went to medical school isn't quite as important as how much experience they have. Going to Harvard doesn't guarantee they will be a good doctor. Finding someone who has worked a long time at a teaching hospital (probably even a full professor) is probably your best bet. Be sure to ask your doctor questions so you understand what is going on.
Re:Best of luck by Anonymous Coward · 2004-11-26 08:36 · Score: 0

. ARSENIC Poisoning? Micro$oft?
Re:Best of luck by Anonymous Coward · 2004-11-26 09:12 · Score: 0

A) In Pat's second post even HE admits some of what he first wrote was under less than optimum conditions- please do NOT draw such hard conclusions from incomplete info.

B) I had a serious pain/condition I told my doctor about and he started telling me about all pains which all the pro athletes "play through". One day leafing through a huge medical book in the local library, I stumbled across the condition I had which was a know, diagnosable and treatable disease/syndrome. Fortunately I heal well.

That is only 1 of probably 6 or 7 health issues I've had/contracted and could not get a doctor to help or diagnose. Hence, I don't go.

C) Having worked for several years in a diagnostic medical equipment company and directly interfacing with doctors and hospitals, I can tell you first-hand the great resistance doctors have in using computers to aid diagnosis. EVEN in this new millenium!! Maybe I should reconsider going to med school- one which uses and encourages the use of computer-assisted diagnosis.
Re:Best of luck by Anonymous Coward · 2004-11-26 09:48 · Score: 0

The reason he initially thinks it's "the thing going around", is because 90% of the time it is. Only when that treatment fails, will the doctor move off that. Instead of actually going back to the doctor in two weeks like he suggested... ...you die.

Good thing health care isn't time sensitive.

No, the reason 90% of all doctors suck, is because 90% of all doctors don't give a shit.

Yes, I know enough Doctors to have a pretty damned good sample group.
Re:Best of luck by Anonymous Coward · 2004-11-26 10:37 · Score: 2, Interesting

It saddens me to see these postings. My aunt went to her doctor with stomach pain, and was told "It's all in your mind". They refused to give her any tests. She complained, and complained and after 3-4 years they decided to shut her up and send her to take some tests. As it turned out, they were too late, she had incurable cancer. If they had taken her serious when she first complained, she might be alive today.

I have enourmous respect for doctors, but it scares me that some are so willing to write things up as hypocondria or wanting to get press.
Re:Best of luck by Simon+Garlick · 2004-11-26 11:04 · Score: 1

'"I am worried. I'm a doctor...
you can't have pulmonary "pops."
very, very difficult to have an infection or inflammatory process with a normal sed rate.

'See from this, I get that hes dieing, and he must be, since the poster is a doctor.'

It seems to me self-evident that what the original poster was saying is that Volkerding is
NOT dying, and that Volkerding's own descriptions of his condition do not add up.

The original poster was politely calling "bullshit". How you got an impression that Volkerding was dying is beyond me.

--

-----
PGP Key ID 0xCB8FF658
Re:Best of luck by Anonymous Coward · 2004-11-26 11:19 · Score: 0

As somebody who has an anxiety disorder and suffer from panic attacks "big time" I must concur.

It can magnify the smallest pain or thought of something going wrong by a factor of 1,000.

I do not consider myself a hypochondriac. But my anxiety disorder can and "does" produce deep physical symptoms, especially dizziness, and there are times I am feeling that I am passing out.

When I have these episodes, I can not help but think that I'm diabetic (tests were negative) or I still think it may be hormonal.

But after having a number of episodes I take some medication (for anxiety) and eat something and it eventually passes.

I am not sure what brain chemistry is behind this, or if there could be some physical disorder yet undiagnosed.

But I do think that anxiety is a factor in Pat's illness, and he needs to be treated for it, even if is a synptom.
Re:Best of luck by Audacious · 2004-11-26 11:52 · Score: 1

May you have a speedy recovery Mr. Volkerding.

I thought I'd just put in my $0.02 worth. :-)

I was diagnosed with thrombophlebitis in 1986. I was stupid and did not get it looked at immediately. After two tries where the doctors said it looked like gout I turned to a third doctor who took one look and said I had thrombophlebitis and that I was going into the hospital. This doctor (Dr. Howard Dillard, MD) was excellent. He scheduled my coming over to the hospital for the tests, they did the tests and I spent a month and a half in the hospital.

Note though that it took three tries to get someone who knew what they were talking about.

When my company went onto an HMO I was forced to leave Dr. Dillard's excellent services. I then went through no fewer than six doctors to find the doctor I now have. One of those doctors told me flat out that she wished I would just die and leave her alone. Needless to say - I do not hold most doctors in high regard.

Even my current doctor I do not rely on for many things and we go back and forth on whether I have or need something. For instance, after 1990 I was put on to HCT by Dr. Dillard. I had a slight reaction to the HCT but, at that time, there wasn't enough information about HCT (because the Internet had not yet come along) at hand to know that even a slight reaction is enough to alert someone (ie: a doctor) to the fact that maybe some other drug should be used. However, the greatest reaction I had was that my blood pressure actually went up from my usage of HCT instead of down. So Dr. Dillard put me on another high blood pressure medicine. (Which was not, IMHO, his best decision. I now believe he should have just changed the HCT out for one of the other dieuretics available.) In any event, all of the HMO doctors just kept giving me my meds even when I began to complain of continus sinus infections and an ache I developed near/on my right kidney region. Finally, in June of 2001 our area of the US was hit by a massive tropical storm which flooded our house as well as most of the city. Under the stress of trying to deal with this I began having severe kidney problems, problems breathing, massive sinus infections (almost couldn't breath), and times when my heart would just pound (but not like a heart attack with pain et al). I too got on to the internet and began reading. There were three medications I was on: Coumadin, Lisinopril, and HCT. On the FDA's website they list all three of these medications. Of the three the only one which listed the exact same kinds of problems from a reaction (such as stress) was HCT. I immediately went off of the HCT, contacted my doctor, talked with him about it, and am now taking an herbal dieuretic. My sinus infections have become almost non-existent but the damage done to my kidneys is not.

I am older and I do realize that as you age things tend to break down and I do what I can (exercise, drink lots of water, take vitamins, etc....) but I could tell there was still something wrong.

Recently my doctor said that I had become a diabetic so I have gone on to glucophauge. My doctor says this is because my kidneys are not functioning correctly. What a surprise.

So this is what I am trying to say:

1. There are good doctors and bad doctors.
1a. So you DO have to hunt for the good ones and you WILL go through (sometimes a lot of) bad ones.
2. Medicines interact in each person differently.
2a. If the symptoms are getting WORSE, then the meds you are on may not be the right ones for you. Figure out when the problems first arose and then go from there.
2b. The worst thing about meds is that they are chemicals and sometimes two chemicals may not interreact like a doctor thinks they should interreact. Check on the internet (the FDA is a good place to go to see what kinds of reactions you may have with meds), see if any of the symptoms listed match what you are experiencing - then talk with your doctor about it. There should be alternative d

--
Someone put a black hole in my pocket and now I'm broke. :-)
Re:Best of luck by Anonymous Coward · 2004-11-26 12:02 · Score: 0

After running around barefoot in the jungle in asia, then meeting a lot of people who were very sick and dying i got a new desease the world hadnt seen before. I was quartinned in transit and had 6 virual specalist doctors. I had sars and i was one of the very early cases. A few weeks later news of this new desease in china hit the news.
Re:Best of luck by Anonymous Coward · 2004-11-26 12:26 · Score: 0

One person is a highly-trained health professional and the other is not.
Re:Best of luck by winwar · 2004-11-26 12:54 · Score: 2, Insightful

"...None of you have the training or experience to diagnose anything. Don't act like you do."

Funny, that seems to apply to a good proportion of the doctors I have seen. Things they (doctors) have not diagnosed when symptoms were obvious to someone in their field (or failed to send me to another doctor) have included: TMJ problems manifested as ear pain, went to ENT, nothing wrong), pinched nerve in neck (neurologist said nothing wrong), etc. These were eventually treated properly by GOOD doctors-who were incredulous that the original specialists missed the problem. The only reason they were diagnosed by doctors?-because I switched doctors and came up with the proper diagnosis at least in part.

Sorry, but most medicine is merely following flow charts. Sure, experience and training is useful (how you become an expert), but if you miss an important piece of information (or won't consider it) your diagnosis will be wrong. And no better than an "untrained" person who has a clue.

Currently with my known medical problems, I know more than most specialists. In other words, any advice a doctor gives me will likely be WRONG. Frankly, if I didn't need them for presciptions and tests, I wouldn't go. Hell, if I want to get better treatment for migraines, for instance, I would have to travel out of Columbus, OH to do it, and Columbus isn't a small town. AFAIK, I have exhausted the "useful" knowledge locally. The best ones realize they don't know everything and say this-they don't use you as a guinea pig without your consent.

Some other points:

"The reason he initially thinks it's "the thing going around", is because 90% of the time it is. Only when that treatment fails, will the doctor move off that."

If that is his sole reason, he/she is a poor doctor. I mean, that is no better than saying, I think I have symptoms x, y, z and need drug A.

"Only when that treatment fails, will the doctor move off that. Instead of actually going back to the doctor in two weeks like he suggested..."

More likely, the doctor doesn't know one way or another and is unwilling to admit that. So, give a drug and get the patient out the door. Come back in two weeks if it is worse. As far as I am concerned, that is code for "I don't give a damn" or "I can't find anything wrong, so it is all in your head, quit bothering me". In simple terms, the reason/rationale for the treatment needs to be EXPLAINED. Is this the best way?, the cheapest?, the quickest?, etc. If doing nothing is the best treatment, say so.

Unfortunately, I have had a heck of a lot of doctors (most of them) treat this job more as a help desk position (get them out as quickly as possible whether or not the problem has been solved...) than a healing position. I could accept that if they were charging me help desk rates. But they are charging me consultant rates (hundreds of dollars an hour equivalent) and I expect GOOD service for that price.
Re:Best of luck by winwar · 2004-11-26 13:00 · Score: 1

"The self-diagnosis and doctor-hopping don't help. As noted in the previous Patrick Volkerding thread, he should stick with one doctor and let him/her check things out."

IF that one doctor is WILLING to check it out, then yes, doctor-hopping is bad. If that doctor is unwilling to help (all the tests say you are fine, so you must be fine) then self-diagnosis and doctor-hopping is the ONLY way to get proper treatment. I hate to say it, but if it is unusual, the chance of the first (few?) doctors you go to being helpful are about nil (in my experience).
Re:Best of luck by Anonymous Coward · 2004-11-26 13:50 · Score: 0

That's about the worst analogy I've ever read.
Re:Best of luck by WhiteDeath · 2004-11-26 14:02 · Score: 1

Actually doctors are more like a MS admin - they don't have the source code.
fortunately for most of us, a lot of reverse engineering and hacking has been going on and doctors have a pretty good idea, but they don't have anything like the access to the nuts and bolts a unix admin has.

Unfortunately we can't just format and re-install Pat (although I bet he wishes we could). All we can hope is that he finds someone who has hacked about in the right place at some time and can fix it.
Re:Best of luck by Anonymous Coward · 2004-11-26 14:33 · Score: 0

I suffer from Health Anxiety and I can empathize with what Patrick is experiencing. I'm not a doctor and I want to make sure that Pat receives medical care from a doctor he trusts. From his posts it sounds like he found one in North Dakota.
I spent the better part of four months fighting with my new doctor (I had just moved) and getting multiple opinions about some stomach troubles I was experiencing. I went through a whole battery of tests with nothing significant showing up. I was diagnosed with Irritable Bowel Syndrom which I didn't buy, both because my symptom patterns didn't match classic IBS (they were far too constant) and because it is a catch-all, "I don't know what's wrong" diagnosis.
It's interesting that Patrick mentions Prostatitis because that was my original diagnosis several years ago and was re-diagnosed by a specialist during those tumultuous four months.
Finally, I had a major panic attack, EMTs and everything. I went to see a counselor. She has helped me tremendously. She even suggested another doctor in the clinic who is extremely patient and really takes the time to answer all of my questions. I feel very comfortable with him. Not because he's diagnosed anything new but because I have the confidence that he understands my experiences.
The key thing for me was having my counselor validate that yes, indeed, my experiences are real and that they affect my life. She and my new doc don't treat me as a nuisance, but rather as someone with symptoms who also happens to have a mental illness. And it is an illness. It's unfortunate that our society sees mental heath issues as something exclusive to suicidal, violent or delusional people. Because after a few weeks on mild anti-anxiety medication I was completely back to normal. My concerns didn't go away, they just faded into the background and don't rule me anymore.
As it happens, about a year later I mentioned to my doc that I wanted to back to a gastro specialist just to see if they had any ideas on how to help the symptoms. The specialist found mild reflux damage during a gastroscopy and did a quick procedure to open up my esophagus (some difficulty swallowing was one of my symptoms).
He also put me on a round of antibiotics that almost immediately cleared up the problems. Previous rounds of different antibiotics had done nothing, so I hadn't expected any change. I don't think this can be racked up to the placebo effect.
The symptoms have since returned and fortunately I have an appointment scheduled soon. We'll go over what happened and I'm very hopeful that we'll clear this thing up with another round of bio-busters.
"Hypochondria" is really an insulting term. Call the disease what is is: Health Anxiety. If Patrick suffers from this condition it's important for him to find a counselor and an M.D. he trusts. Then he has to stick with them. Jumping around makes the situation worse and will only increase his frustration and anxiety.
By all means, get the symptoms checked with a doc you trust. But if you trust him, trust him. The counselor and mild anxiety medication will do wonders if this is the problem.
Re:Best of luck by peripatetic_bum · 2004-11-26 14:39 · Score: 1

>I'm just not buying in this case.

I agree with you at this point.

He sounds like the typical geek who knows something very well and hence thinks he knows

>"Nevertheless, the signs of complications from an infection are quite
clear."

This a big one. They are quite clear to him, but not to doctors. Sorry that doesnt sound quite.

>" infective endocarditis
but that patients that present that way have a statistically worse
outcome (maybe because nobody will treat it). Anyway, I'm still
hoping to get the treatment that I'm sure I need, but if there's an
insistance on clinical proof first and treatment second, the proof
might be found at autopsy time. "

heh this one is too much. I dont think he understand how big the treatment for infective endocarditis is *AND* you in fact do PROOF before you treat endocarditis. The fact he says "he's sure he needs it" says to me he really hasnt digested what he is saying.

Hell, the treatment for endocartitis is on the order of 6 weeks and you NEED to identify the bug before you treat or else you end up with the real posibility of causing a resistent to bug to form and then you are really up shit creek

>"I'm also grateful
for many of the suggestions on how to boost my immune system with
natural products (hey, that oregano oil can't hurt and tastes
pretty good! :-)"

This is a warning sign. He is talking about natural healing products. Whenever I hear someone says there sick and is talking about natural healing products I think two things:
1. The person is that sick; let me tell you, really sick people pass on the nice bullshit and know they need real medicines

2. "natural" products dont mean shit. IF they work, then they can also cause real damage. There is no such thing as a free lunch. If the "natural" product can do something to heal (I am not disputing that), then it can also do something to hurt. Hell, aristotle and those dudes know that any medicine can be a poison.

Anyway, let me know what you think.
Thanks all

--
Sigs are dangerous coy things
Re:Best of luck by ralphclark · 2004-11-26 14:50 · Score: 1

It's exactly the same in the UK.

The good ones, the ones who really do listen, are not quite as rare as you seem to be making out - but even if only 75% of general practitioners are of the lazy kind, that's a very risky situation for any patient with a serious problem.

Personally I have found dentists to be even worse. You walk in and try to start telling them what the problem is but before you can start to elaborate they've got their speculum in your mouth and the conversation is over.

In the UK the problem is partly explicable by time pressure. NHS practitioners have a limited time to spend on each patient. GP's expect an appointment to take about ten minutes. Dentists, fifteen.
Re:Best of luck by bladesjester · 2004-11-26 16:16 · Score: 1

You're in Columbus? I'm about an hour from you then.

Funny thing is that I can agree with the lack of decent doctors in this area. It really weirded out one of them that I knew my medical history and the prevelant medical conditions in my family when I went to see her not to mention that I listed off the most likely things that came to mind as being the problem because of the symptoms. I'm not a med journal reader or hypocondriac, I've just had an interesting medical history and I've learned to listen to my body heh.

--
Everything I need to know I learned by killing smart people and eating their brains.
Re:Best of luck by bguzz · 2004-11-26 16:24 · Score: 1

Similar story: The first time I ever used Linux was Red Hat 5.2. It stayed on the machine about a week, and it was back to Windows 98. I jumped between Windows 2000, 98, SuSE, and Red Hat. I installed Slackware 8.1 a couple years ago, and have never changed it since. I manhandled Slackware onto a 33MHz, 4MB 486 and used it as a dialup router. Greatest Linux distribution ever. Best wishes to you, Patrick... here's hoping you beat this thing.
Re:Best of luck by Aeiri · 2004-11-26 16:26 · Score: 1

Not all flavors of UNIX are open source...

The ones without the source try and try until they solve their problems, too.
Re:Best of luck by Anonymous Coward · 2004-11-26 16:41 · Score: 0

You're right about the bleb. I had a bleb pop and devloped a hemopneumothorax. It knocked me off of my ass for about a month and I ended up needing to have my chest cracked open (this was 1991) for a life saving lung surgery.
Re:Best of luck by bersl2 · 2004-11-26 17:29 · Score: 1

1. "It's a virus." No antibotic and educate the patient as much as possible.
2. "It's an 'infection'" and get the patient out with an antibotic.

3. Order a placebo instead. I know that perscriptions are written in a shorthand, so there ought to be a way to encode this without the casual patient knowing.

Or is this ethically forbidden? Then again, exactly how ethical is it to perscribe antibiotics for a knowingly viral infection in the first place?
Re:Best of luck by Anonymous Coward · 2004-11-26 18:28 · Score: 0

it would help things if most of their patients didn't come in for trivial/fake things in order to get a prescription for drugs.
Re:Best of luck by Anonymous Coward · 2004-11-26 18:42 · Score: 0

She's still around and doing well 4 years later, because we eventually got a surgical consult with a supposedly "fringe" surgical oncologist in Washington DC, Dr. Paul Sugarbaker.

Remember that for the next "mainstream science is always right, the fringe guys are just nutcases" argument on Slashdot.
Re:Best of luck by innerweb · 2004-11-26 18:53 · Score: 1

I have to disagree with you (on self-diagnostics and doc shopping). My experience is if you have an uncommon condition, you had better doc hunt for your life. I have been through over a dozen doctors in 7 years. I have been nearly killed 3 times from my different (then current) doctors' advice. I have learned that most doctors (you may be an exception) know little more about what they are doing than what they can remember from med school and what they have been told by pharma marketeers since. There are great doctors out there who do hunger to learn and grow in their field, but they are no more common than the top notch programmers are.
Most doctors are good for mundane, normal stuff. Personally, I was diabetic for years before anyone matched up the symptoms. Despite the fact that I continuously asked for certain tests to be performed that would have shown whether my beliefs (based on what I knew) were correct or not. One of the key tests I wanted the whole time was an insulin test. Type 2 diabetics show elevated insulin long before elevated sugar. But, most of my doctors not only did not know, they did not believe me and would not verify the information even though I told them where to find it! Most of them knew less than I did about the functioning of diabetes, let alone the treatments. The difference is that I studied for a long time (I watched my grandfather die from diabetes) and learned what current research was coming out with. It turns out that many of the assumptions we had held in the past about diabetes are bad assumptions. The treatments were less than good (though they were better than no treatment) and many people have suffered needlessly from diabetes, though something as simple as diet and excercise can control or eliminate practically all diabetic symptons and complications if detected while it is still only elevated insulin, not blood sugar! The ADA diet was not healthy! Then, there have been those lucky enough to meet a doctor who has been truly interested in the causes of diabetes instead of just the *standard* treatment. Strange thing is they were diagnosed earlier, had fewer complications and lived longer (as an average - see WHO and NIH) than the rest of the diabetics.

My sister in law (short-gut and cyliacs (sp?)) has been suffering for over 24 years at the hands of doctors who did not know what they were doing. She finally found one doctor (after shopping through dozens of docs) who actually understood enough about his own lack of knowledge to go hunting. He did not know about the two diseases at first, but now has her the healthiest she has ever been. The difference between him and all (save one) her other docs. He went out of his way to go learn something new that was way outside of his area of work. Doctors like him are an exception, not a rule.

So, if you are one of those doctors, keep it up. There are many doctors who are not.

InnerWeb

--
Freud might say that Intelligent Design is religion's ID.
Re:Best of luck by Anonymous Coward · 2004-11-26 19:04 · Score: 0

If it were only a real marketplace. Paying the doc a set rate for their time w/o any of the bureaucratic BS from the insurance companies or governments was how it used to be before those entities decided to step in and make it 'easier/cheaper' for the 'poor'. The US has gone from spending a little less (as a percent of GDP) on healthcare than other industrialized nations pre 1963, to nearly twice as much as before. Thank you big brother insurance and uncle sam. Getting bitch slapped by Adam Smith's invisible hand keeps the hypocondriacs and those who run to the ER at the first sign of a fever from clogging up the system and wasting doctors' time.
Re:Best of luck by Idealius · 2004-11-26 19:21 · Score: 1

"Why is it there's this heavy tendency among some doctors to not believe the patient?"

As all professions where some sort of diagnosis needs to be made, this is seen by many as a failing solely on the Doctor's part. It's similar to Tech Support. (I do it for a living.)

Basically, when diagnosing something: The doctor is limited by the information he is given.

The problem in this case is usually some seemingly minor detail the patient knows of but can't communicate to the Doctor because a combination of the doctor failing to ask the correct question and of the patient not realizing this detail may be important.

Take a step back and realize that Doctors (and technicians) don't have individual tests that can check the subject for all known types of problems. Troubleshooting, or diagnosing usually requires some sort of historic account, too.

It would seem the patient's historic account does not include that one bit of info that a good doctor needs to properly diagnose this issue.

It sounds like he is taking the correct approach:

Keep Doctor shopping in the hopes the Doctor asks the correct question to diagnose. In the meantime keep researching and you may find some clue that will help you remember this detail.

From all the Doctors he has gone to I would guess the chances are very low this is a doctor issue. No, there is still some key detail in the patient's past the doctor needs knowledge of to properly diagnose.
Re:Best of luck by Idealius · 2004-11-26 19:53 · Score: 1

Uh, well you asked for it:

1. I think you can't post a coherent thread in your current state, I barely made sense of four seperate sentences.
2. Please don't post high on Slashdot.
3. Please don't post drunk on Slashdot.
4. Please inform us of your profession and/or any other info that would support you know what you're talking about.

Thank you.
Re:Best of luck by peripatetic_bum · 2004-11-27 04:15 · Score: 1

heh. a few typos but when I re-read it, Im sorry if you don't understand the words im using.
remember, just because you are a tech geek doesnt mean you're a med geek

--
Sigs are dangerous coy things
Re:Best of luck by ikeleib · 2004-11-27 05:15 · Score: 1

As a doctor, perhaps you can answer the question that's been on my mind over this thing. If he's so sick, why doesn't some hospital admit him? As an inpatient, I would think that declines in health would be readily apparant to the attending physician. It would seem that there would be no reluctance to diagnose or treat as in inpatient.
Re:Best of luck by Anonymous Coward · 2004-11-27 05:42 · Score: 0

My intro to psych professor had even better advice: Don't go diagnosing your friends and relatives based on the limited knowledge you get in this class.

As for doctor hopping, it is an issue, but sometimes you just have to do it to get a doctor to listen to you. I've been having sleep problems for several years. In the spring, it got bad enough to make it nearly impossible to keep normal schedules. So I went to the doctor and got a diagnosis of night time asthma. After over half a year on maximum dosages of all the modern asthma medications and still feeling like a walking zombie most days even with 8 hours sleep and also now randomly falling asleep during the day, I tried to go back to that doctor and she refused to do more. So I went to another doctor in the same group (who would have access to all the previous notes so a step better than normal doctor hopping) a month later and that doctor immediately said "it could be sleep apnea" and is sending me to a sleep clinic.
Re:Best of luck by BalkanBoy · 2004-11-28 20:32 · Score: 1

If a doctor can't hear you out 100% on what the symptoms are, perhaps you should find another doctor. I have never had that experience with any of the doctors I've dealt with. If I actually even remotely thought he's diagnosing based on 1/10th of the info I give him, I'd slap him around, not just leave him... He's screwing w/my life in that case. Another time when I had surgery, and had to go into general anesthesia, I told both, the anesthesiologist and the doctor doing the surgery that if I don't wake up and somehow it's determined it was your error, it won't be the courts that will be settling the payment for your services ;). Fortunately I woke up, so I guess they didn't err ... :)

--
'A lie if repeated often enough, becomes the truth.' - Goebbels
Re:Best of luck by CaptKilljoy · 2004-12-01 22:12 · Score: 1

>Why is it there's this heavy tendency among some doctors to not believe the patient?

For the same reason we don't believe the user when s/he says "It broke, even though I didn't touch anything."?

Humour by balster+neb · 2004-11-26 02:34 · Score: 4, Insightful

"Netcraft does not yet confirm it"

Great to see he's kept his sense of humour.

Good luck Pat by Gothmolly · 2004-11-26 02:36 · Score: 5, Insightful

Pat is one of the heros of the Linux movement, like Donald Becker, or Andre Hedrick, people without whom running linux would be an impossible task. Pat, good luck, hang in there!

--
I want to delete my account but Slashdot doesn't allow it.

Re:Good luck Pat by phaln · 2004-11-26 03:35 · Score: 2, Insightful

Slackware is the distro that got me interested in Linux in the first place. Best of luck my friend, and I send you all the best wishes for a speedy recovery.

--
SNACKS ARE AWESOME

Text - save the slackware server by Anonymous Coward · 2004-11-26 02:37 · Score: 0, Informative

Thu Nov 25 17:14:42 PST 2004
"Netcraft does not yet confirm it"

Hi again, everyone. I wish I could report that I'm doing great
and will be back to full health soon, but I can't. Possibly due to
the antibiotics I've already taken, the doctors I've seen have been
unable to find signs of infection, and my blood ESR is normal.
Nevertheless, the signs of complications from an infection are quite
clear. I've had a number of pulmonary "pops" that are either burst
lung abscesses or blebs, and things have spread in a bad way. A
thickening of my pleura has been noted, as well as pericarditis.
Most disturbing of all, I have developed mitral valve prolapse and
regurgitation. I've had a fever and soaking night sweats. I can't
stand for too long without getting faint. Lately I've been spending
a lot of my time on the floor. I have no history of heart problems
and when I got the first chest pains (crushing ones) I went to the
ER immediately. This was on 11/10. They found nothing wrong and
sent me away. The next day I saw an internal medicine MD who gave me
a complete exam including carefully listening for heart problems, and
found nothing wrong. The pain continued, and by the time I got to
the Mayo I had heart trouble so obvious that nobody has failed to
recognize it since. However, it's been a problem getting anyone to
consider that this is a new problem. Most of the people I've seen
think that they are the first to notice it and that everyone before
them must have missed it, and that I've certainly had it my whole life.
But having recently had a major infection and fever and developing a
new murmur and chest pains I'd think it would be only prudent to
treat this as complicated infective endocarditis. I've been to
another different ER with more crushing chest pains since then and
have begged for a needle biopsy to check the plural fluid for empyema,
but nobody will do this diagnostic either. I've verified online that
it's not only possible to have a normal ESR and infective endocarditis
but that patients that present that way have a statistically worse
outcome (maybe because nobody will treat it). Anyway, I'm still
hoping to get the treatment that I'm sure I need, but if there's an
insistance on clinical proof first and treatment second, the proof
might be found at autopsy time. Oh, I've also finally flunked an ECG
after several normal ones and at least pericarditis is now proven.
Now, to clear up a few things. In my initial report I mistakenly
reported that I'd taken 60 days of Cipro for a pulmonary infection.
(hey, I was up late freaking out a bit) This might not have been
for as long a period of time, and it was actually to treat a
relapse of prostatitis (and yes, that does require a long course).
As for those who say I should stop trying to diagnose myself: I am
trying to get doctors to diagnose this ongoing problem. Meanwhile,
it is only wise to try to figure out what's going on myself, and to
get input from as many sources as I possibly can. After all,
sometimes the cavalry just isn't coming. Or as the old (I think
Russian) proverb says: "Pray to God, but keep rowing to shore."

I built a few updates to get my mind on happier things. Maybe I'll
have time to look at the kernel sometime soon, too, but getting my
health back remains the A-number-1 priority here.

kde/koffice-1.3.5-i486-1.tgz: Upgraded to koffice-1.3.5.
kdei/koffice*.tgz: Upgraded to koffice-i18n-1.3.5.

Also, Bruno H Collovini and Piter Punk in Brazil have been helping
to build security updates for Slackware while I'm (mostly) out of
commission. They've helped with Slackware for many years and I
trust and authorize their patches. These can be found here:

http://www.slackware.org.br/~patrick/WORKGUS/

Thanks to everyone who has offered to help, and sent get well soon
and other kind emails. I really appreciate it. I'm also grateful
for many of the suggestio

Re:Jeez... by Anonymous Coward · 2004-11-26 02:37 · Score: 0

You clearly read the article.

Re:Jeez...RTFA he's done it sevral times by Anonymous Coward · 2004-11-26 02:38 · Score: 0

RTFA !

Re:Jeez... by alexbartok · 2004-11-26 02:38 · Score: 1

How about RTFA ?
He's been to several docs and none have found anything significant, but he's obviously in a bad condition.

Well... by Blue-Footed+Boobie · 2004-11-26 02:38 · Score: 3, Insightful

It seems like you keep jumping around to all the different ER's in the area...

What does your actual Doctor think of everything that is going on? You do have a family doctor, right?

Keep this up and the next /. post is going to be your Obituary. Not being a troll, but you need to stop with the games and ge tthis fixed.

--
DAMN YOU OCTODOG! DAMN YOU TO HELL!

Re:Well... by lisaparratt · 2004-11-26 03:08 · Score: 1

As soon as you walk off the well worn path, doctor's are useless. Add to that the fact they're practically trained to think they're God, rather than the lowly flesh mechanics they are, and you've got a tricky situation.
Re:Well... by Blue-Footed+Boobie · 2004-11-26 03:23 · Score: 1

True, but if he is as bad as he says, ANY doctor would have him admitted without hesitation.
Unless, of course, he keeps declining the CORRECT course of action...

--
DAMN YOU OCTODOG! DAMN YOU TO HELL!
Re:Well... by Blue-Footed+Boobie · 2004-11-26 03:25 · Score: 1

Troll my ass
Yeah, I am a troll because I (i) don't idolize this guy and (ii) won't keep enabling his destructive behaviour like the rest of you.

--
DAMN YOU OCTODOG! DAMN YOU TO HELL!
Re:Well... by Anonymous Coward · 2004-11-26 04:12 · Score: 2, Insightful

I know quite a few doctors. None of them are Gods. Some of them have a high opinion of themselves (like the majority of the Slashdot population, or the general population for that matter), which can make them hard to deal with. I have a hard time dealing with most people, though, so YMMV. They all get trained for rare illnesses. If only routine stuff came in, then we wouldn't need doctors, just checklists.

I tend to agree with the GP, though. Continuity of care is essential to getting treated. Between his posts, I can't tell if Patrick has ever seen the same doctor twice. When you see a doctor, they treat the most likely cause, and schedule a follow-up. If you aren't making progress at the follow-up, then they move on to other treatments. If you go to a different doctor in the meantime, you start the process over, and none of them really know your history.

I am a Slackware user, and I have a lot of respect for Patrick. It is quite possible that he is slipping through the huge cracks in our medical system, and that would be tragic. It is also possible that his do-it-youself approach and his lack of faith in his doctors is making him not take the best course of action, and it may kill him. I'm not in a good position to tell which of these scenarios is more likely.

I hope he finds a good doctor that he respects, and who takes an active interest in him. That way they can work together instead of fighting each other. All I can do is sit back and watch.
Re:Well... by Anonymous Coward · 2004-11-26 05:18 · Score: 0

It might be easier if he wasn't the only one focusing on a historic/global diagnosis. It's hard to stay in one place and wait for people to figure out the obvious when your heart is starting to choke itself.

How many times have I heard this story? Go to a doctor, they don't find anything. Go to another, same thing. Finally, it gets worse so the ER finds something and treats it emergently and symptomatically. They turn you loose into the wide world and you're on your own again with no progress on the greater problem.

His family physician may have the bigger picture, but he obviously doesn't have the whole story or the specialized expertise to treat it. Some of the information gleaned from clinics, ERs, etc. needs to flow back downstream in a timely manner.

There are some really big cracks in North American health care systems, and it seems like most often it is dead people that end up slipping through them. There have been enough eventualities where I live to warrant a wholesale change of management on the regional health board in the past year.

One doctor with the sense to look outside his singular area of expertise and follow-up on it could save Patrick's life.

Re:Plan Of Action by Anonymous Coward · 2004-11-26 02:41 · Score: 0

Better yet, go to canada or failing that the UK where health care is free. Even tests.
In the UK doctors are so concerned about screwing up the are getting in trouble for ordering too many tests!
And no you dont have to be a citizen, just show up at a hospital and they have to treat you.

Re:Plan Of Action by Xeo+024 · 2004-11-26 02:43 · Score: 1

Am I looking at your list right?
I don't see '???' or 'Profit!' anywhere in there.

Bacterial, not viral by wa1hco · 2004-11-26 02:47 · Score: 4, Insightful

He thinks normal mouth baterial got into his lungs.
Which can happen.
Med Labs routinely ignore mouth bateria in samples.
Antibiotics tailored to leave them alone.
Antibiotics don't work on virii, at all.
Needs old fashioned or special antibiotics.
Some heart disease caused by infection.
Still learning how much disease caused by infection.
Doctors don't do unusual very well.
Needs to get lucky with right doctor.
Nothing wrong with defending yourself.

Re:Bacterial, not viral by dr_dank · 2004-11-26 03:09 · Score: 1

That's the longest haiku I've seen in a long time.

--
Where does the school board find them and why do they keep sending them to ME?
Re:Bacterial, not viral by kfg · 2004-11-26 03:15 · Score: 1

That's the longest haiku I've seen in a long time.

That's because it's a haikai.

KFG
Re:Bacterial, not viral by Anonymous Coward · 2004-11-26 03:15 · Score: 5, Interesting

For what it's worth I spent 12 years in psych treatment, under the care of docs and on various antidepressants and psych drugs because my constantly low energy levels were put down to depression. I felt like shit, the world felt like shit, and it was all put down to me not wanting to take part in life.

Then my GP retired, I picked up a new one who gave me a going over, and it took him 5 minutes to diagnose a chronic low level tonsil infection. You have no idea how good it's felt since I had those fuckers out. 12 goddamned wasted years because doctors couldn't be bothered with the simple things.
Re:Bacterial, not viral by Scaba · 2004-11-26 03:16 · Score: 1

All haikus are the same length - 5/7/5 - so one cannot be longer than another, else it's not a haiku.
Re:Bacterial, not viral by Janek+Kozicki · 2004-11-26 03:18 · Score: 1

so it's best to visit as many doctors as possible, sooner or later he will find one, that *knows*

--
# #\ @ ? Colonize Mars #
Re:Bacterial, not viral by euthman · 2004-11-26 03:39 · Score: 5, Informative

Medical laboratories do not "routinely ignore mouth bacteria in samples." Bacterial endocarditis is diagnosed by blood culture, and any bacterium that grows in a blood culture is dutifully reported to the doctor.
The only time we don't report out normal mouth bacteria is when we are working with a specimen from, uh, the mouth.

--
Ed Uthman, MD
Pathologist, Houston/Richmond, TX, USA
Re:Bacterial, not viral by Anonymous Coward · 2004-11-26 03:45 · Score: 0

He's probably got the AIDS.
Re:Bacterial, not viral by Anonymous Coward · 2004-11-26 03:50 · Score: 0

5/7/5... for large values of five, seven and five.
Re:Bacterial, not viral by Dredd2Kad · 2004-11-26 03:55 · Score: 1

I think I'm having the same problem. I have really low energy and my sleep is terrible. although I'm not depressed, I don't think I'm the same happy person I was before this problem started. This has been going since I "recovered" from mono around 6 to 7 years ago. One of my tonsils ejects these hard packets of what I think is puss fairly regularly. I've been to several doctors over the years and they do nothing. Several of them tried to tell me it was food getting stuck in there so I stopped seeing them. Finally this past summer a new doctor gave me a full battery of tests and it turns out I had a low level strep infection as well as a dust mite allergy. This has been going on for who knows how long. My throat is doing much better since the anti-biotics but it still has that puss problem. I've been taking Zyrtec off and on for the dustmite problem but I think I have trouble falling asleep when I take it. It works ok, not great, but better than nothing at all. BTW - Thank Canada for mail order drugs. My insurance company won't cover Zyrtec (which works best on me) and it costs around $100 for 30 pills and I can get them for around $1/pill mail order. I'm supposed to see an ENT specialist soon. If my problems are due to tonsils I'll gladly get them taken out. A great many doctors just seem to go through a checklist of common issues, and if your problem isn't on the checklist, well...you don't have a problem. Depending on your insurance plan it can be a near hopeless battle to get second or third opionions and/or sent to a specialist.

--

http://loudcity.net - Keeping Internet Radio Legal, Afford
Re:Bacterial, not viral by Anonymous Coward · 2004-11-26 04:07 · Score: 0

> if your problem isn't on the checklist, well...you don't have a
> problem.

This was the crux of my problem. Fair enough if your problems are something they don't know, or can only guess at and not treat effectively. It's not fair to declare you as not having a problem, or defining you as having one that doesn't apply but partly fits.

I can see doctor shopping as a problem with some people, but hell, my advice is now go to a doctor, give your symptoms (not your own guesses as to what's wrong. It'll either make them think you're self diagnosing and put them offside or it'll lead them down a possibly wrong path) and follow their advice. If that truly doesn't work, move on.

Your illness is your own. Their treatment is meant to be followed to help you recover, not to just be blindly followed because doctor says so even if treatment is doing nought.
Re:Bacterial, not viral by wa1hco · 2004-11-26 04:27 · Score: 1

which happened in this case because the cultured stuff coughed up.
Re:Bacterial, not viral by Anonymous Coward · 2004-11-26 04:48 · Score: 0

Are you talking about tonsil stones (aka tonsilloliths) when you say hard packets of puss? I get them fairly regularly but I don't experience low energy (my sleep has always been terrible though).
Re:Bacterial, not viral by starm_ · 2004-11-26 06:22 · Score: 2, Interesting

I had mono about 5-6 years ago (I was 18 years old at the time), and I'm just starting to feel better now. I also had weird allergies that made me tired. I even quit my job one summer (two year after I got mono) because I was too tired. This year I feel I'm getting better. What made the biggest difference was starting Yoga. I think it's the breathing in yoga that helped me. For some reason when I got mono I think it changed my body rhythm. It mostly affected the way I was breathing. I wasn't breathing enough. It's my girlfriend that noticed that I seemed to be breathing very little especially when I was concentrating (coding in from of the computer or something) The fact that I constantly didn't have enough air made gave me all sorts of trouble including low energy, difficulty at doing exercise, difficulty sleeping etc. I think I'm also the nervous type and Yoga help control that too. I've gotten used to breathing more and in a more relaxed way. I have increased my body rhythm in general. I feel more alert and without having to take coffee or other stimulus (like things that make me nervous) and I feel better since. I'm not even doing the Yoga anymore. I think I just had to do it for a while to learn the concepts. My body just acts better naturally now.
Re:Bacterial, not viral by drix · 2004-11-26 06:55 · Score: 2, Funny

And with that I'd like to again suggest a new /. modification criterion, "-4 No sense of humor whatsoever".

--

I think there is a world market for maybe five personal web logs.
Re:Bacterial, not viral by Anonymous Coward · 2004-11-26 07:01 · Score: 0

moderation, even
Re:Bacterial, not viral by Anonymous Coward · 2004-11-26 12:41 · Score: 1, Interesting

One of my tonsils ejects these hard packets of what I think is puss fairly regularly. I've been to several doctors over the years and they do nothing. Several of them tried to tell me it was food getting stuck in there so I stopped seeing them.
I have the same thing. It just means the surface of your tonsil has a pit ("crypt") where gunk can get trapped. It's a common condition and generally nothing to worry about. Washing them out with a Water Pik solves the problem for some people. Gargling with warm salt water might also help.
My insurance company won't cover Zyrtec (which works best on me) and it costs around $100 for 30 pills and I can get them for around $1/pill mail order.
What about loratadine ($0.30 per pill) in the morning plus a low dose of diphenhydramine at bedtime? It's cheap, might work as well as Zyrtec, and you might sleep better. Although I'd ask a doctor before combining two antihistamines like that...
A great many doctors just seem to go through a checklist of common issues, and if your problem isn't on the checklist, well...you don't have a problem.
I hear and believe. I have migraine with a variety of nervous system symptoms (lack of energy, severe indigestion, fuzzy vision) but with only mild, non-typical headache (my *eyeballs* hurt if you can believe that). Getting that diagnosed was slow and...uh...interesting.
The thing is, undirected agressive treatment would have been a serious mistake. Like, for instance, the sinus surgery I had.
I think I'm having the same problem. I have really low energy and my sleep is terrible.
Depression isn't just full-blown major depressive disorder. It can also be a nagging problem that saps your energy and sleep. Plus the brain/body can fail in many other ways that can't really be diagnosed but drag you down in a pervasive way.
My advice: Ask your doctor about trying the drug amitriptyline, one of the older antidepressants. Not only does it improve mood (which is often experienced as having more energy), it also is an antihistamine and causes sleepiness. That seems to fit your problems.
More advice: Insist on starting at the lowest possible dose and slowly work your way up. The standard dose is intended to give an instant response for very depressed people who aren't very sensitive to the drug. For a barely depressed person who is very sensitive to the drug, that's total overkill. Been there, done that, got the mental scars. If the doctor refuses, find another doctor.
Re:Bacterial, not viral by Anonymous Coward · 2004-12-04 16:56 · Score: 0

I am a Pharmacist, with zero HMO experience as I practice in Canada., but FWIW, Patrick :

- Stick with the doctors that know you best. Hopping from MD to MD is not a winning strategy.

- Cipro does not cover some common oral pathogens, so you may be suffering a superinfection as one post has already noted. Geez, I don't even know if you have had dental surgery lately...

- I do not understand why you can't be admitted to hospital with mitral valve disease, apparent heart failure, fever... ? Maybe that is the system in the USA, or maybe my info is lacking.

Take care, Russ R.Ph.

he scares me by Anonymous Coward · 2004-11-26 02:48 · Score: 3, Interesting

I hope he was cynical when he said this:
"Anyway, I'm still hoping to get the treatment that I'm sure I need, but if there's an insistance on clinical proof first and treatment second, the proof might be found at autopsy time."

Re:he scares me by kfg · 2004-11-26 03:06 · Score: 3, Funny

I hope he was cynical when he said this:

Of course he was, but then so was B. P. Roberts when he had "I told you I was sick" inscribed on his crypt.

Cynical humor is the best way to stay sane when you're dead.

KFG
Re:he scares me by Anonymous Coward · 2004-11-26 03:19 · Score: 0

mod parent up. LOL
Re:he scares me by Anonymous Coward · 2004-11-26 06:27 · Score: 0

Its because he wants attention. Slackware has always sucked, but at least it used to be one of the only distros around. Nowadays nobody uses it, nobody cares about him, so he's trying to get attention this way.

Re:Plan Of Action by gaj · 2004-11-26 02:48 · Score: 3, Informative

He said in his message that he'd gone to the Mayo Clinic. There are bigger cities than Rochester, MN, but not better clinics. Mind you, there may well be a clinic of the same caliber that has more experts in infectuous disease ... that I do not know, but just because a city is larger doesn't mean it has better facilities.

He found the Oregano oil ... by puzzled · 2004-11-26 02:48 · Score: 3, Informative

At least he found the Oregano oil ... that stuff is like swallowing napalm as far as any bacterial/yeast stuff - it'll pretty much toast anything bothering you in about forty eight hours. Can't understand the part about it tasting good, however, as concentrated Oregano oil *burns* like the hottest hot sauce you've ever seen and it keep on burning for *hours*. You put it in a gel cap and swallow with *a lot* of water.

Hope Patrick is feeling better soon - cardiac stuff is scary++ and the things he describes are going to cause him long term troubles even if he does recover :-(

--
I am very easy to get along with, but I don't have time to waste being nice to people who are being stupid. -Theo

Re:He found the Oregano oil ... by SgtChaireBourne · 2004-11-26 03:12 · Score: 2, Insightful

Well, if you want to bring up anecdotal cures, I'll suggest stocking up on comedies from the black and white era, especially the old silent ones. You may have to visit a film archive and rent an 8mm or 16mm, but you won't get a better laugh out of the lame stuff circulating these days in place of comedies.
Enjoyment has been tied to improved immune function and when it comes down to it with or without anti-biotics his immune system is what has to kick the bacteria.
From time to time you read anecdotes about people kicking illnesses through humor or just deciding to kick back and have fun on the way out. (I guess, though, those are self selecting, You don't usually hear, "well, I tried that, but it killed me anyway...) Myself, as a kid I once got sicker and sicker for months, despite lots of medical treatment, the turning point for me was the b&w and silent comedies. Can't say for sure that's what did it, but at least it was entertaining. YMMV

--
Beta is broken and the link to classic doesn't work. Stop wasting our time or there won't be anybody left here.
Re:He found the Oregano oil ... by Anonymous Coward · 2004-11-26 04:27 · Score: 0

Actually, that scared the Hell out of me. A great many of the herbals out there are drugs the same as something over the counter, except without proper testing, FDA spproval as drugs, careful measurement of quantities of active components, etc. They can interact with the drugs his doctor is giving him, making them less effective or causing extra complications. I hope he informed his doctor of what "extras" he is taking.

If Oregano oil kills off all bacteria, then it will make you sicker. Your intestinal flora are an important part of the digestive process. Also, if it is a great antibiotic, then what is the active component and why isn't it sold in pill form like other antibiotics? Everyone is looking for new, better antibiotics.

Honey, which the other AC mentioned, does nice for sore throats. It also contains bacteria, notably botulism, and can kill small children and those with weak immune systems. I wouldn't recommend it to someone with a serious infection.

I don't want to be too negative. Much of the best medicine is learned from folk remedies. A lot of 'primitive' medicine does things that 'modern' medicine only wishes it could. Western medicine has a long way to go, and it won't get there if it remains closed-minded about where it gets new ideas. You just have to be careful when you don't know all the variables involved is all.
Re:He found the Oregano oil ... by Anonymous Coward · 2004-11-26 05:19 · Score: 0

Some of those natural treatments does their job so well so they mix with chemical weapons job and bad things happen.

I'd suggest him NOT to take any natural pill etc if he is using a chemical pill.

Not before speaking with a doctor of course.
Re:He found the Oregano oil ... by puzzled · 2004-11-26 10:36 · Score: 1

Much natural human flora is adapted to oregano oil - this is why it is such a powerful thing - lays waste to the bad guys, leaves your normal stuff alone. Google around and you can find a few small studies on this.

--
I am very easy to get along with, but I don't have time to waste being nice to people who are being stupid. -Theo

Re:Jeez... by Anonymous Coward · 2004-11-26 02:48 · Score: 0

Just recently we follow a discussion here where the conclusion was the the US has the best Health Care in the World!
If that's true it's really scary.

Stress? by Anonymous Coward · 2004-11-26 02:49 · Score: 0

Maybe he should just try to forget a few months about Internet and work, and try to relax, doing other more relaxing things he likes. I know from experience that stress and tension can cause all such kind of health problems, even though at that moment I could not accept the doctor's statement that physically I was OK and I thought something more severe was happening. A few months later, after relaxing during holidays, everything was over, and so now I have to admit that it actually wás stress.

The problem with stress is that if you cannot accept it, you will be thinking too much of severe things, and will become frustrated because your med cannot find anything wrong with you, which actually only emphases the stress. It's kind of a negative spiral...

He needs to relax by inkey+string · 2004-11-26 02:54 · Score: 5, Interesting

This man is very intelligent, and does his job very well.

Unfortunately, these advantages can quickly turn into a liability. In the same way that a doctor may end up losing his shirt when he starts daytrading, experience and competence in one area does not necessarily translate to the next. Confidence however, generally does.

He's frequently using medical terms in very poor "context" for lack of a better expression. While technically appropriate, it ends up reading more like an essay written by someone who used a thesaurus too often without knowing exactly what the words mean.

He has been to many doctors, and all of them have found little to nothing wrong. This is drastically different from his own assessment of looming death. Statistically, from the number and variety of doctors he's visited, a false negative at this point is incredibly unlikely. As the saying goes, when everyone else is wrong, you're probably wrong yourself.

Yes, it is important to verify information and diagnoses given to you. But it isn't critical evaluation to assume a conclusion from day one, and stick to it regardless of multiple, consistent, informed opinion.

But then again, if he ends up dying from some bizarre rare disease, I'm going to feel pretty bad about this post.

Re:He needs to relax by Welsh+Dwarf · 2004-11-26 03:05 · Score: 0

See my other posts, Pat _NEVER_ self medicated, so go troll somewhere else

--
Ask 8 slackers a question, get 10 awnsers (a citation, but I can't remember from who)
Re:He needs to relax by Anonymous Coward · 2004-11-26 03:08 · Score: 3, Interesting

that may be true but ive read many horror stories of people going to tons of doctors and not getting diagnosed, then finding out they did have a problem and it was fixable but its now too late

check out http://www.nnff.org/

its a site filled with stories from survivors of that flesh eating disease.. most of the stories talk about going to several doctors and not being diagnosed correctly until they're almost dead
Re:He needs to relax by RangerElf · 2004-11-26 03:17 · Score: 5, Interesting

But then again, if he ends up dying from some bizarre rare disease, I'm going to feel pretty bad about this post.

Yes you will, because you know --even if you don't admit it-- that the medical industry in the US is very, very out of touch with the actual needs of people, and more in touch the the "needs" of big pharma.

I've seen it first-hand, with the death of my brother-in-law, what doctors do in order to not make "controversial" actions, and not make a wrong prognosis (any prognosis, actually).

So, what's happening? No hospital will take Patrick in without a definitive diagnosis, and no doctor will make the diagnosis without proof, and the proof is inside Pat right now (biopsy), so it has to be obtained in a hospital, and no hospital will take Patrick in without a definitive diagnosis... (ad nauseam).

It really sux to be in his situation right now, I hope he finds a real MD which will listen to him, and make actual decisions.

Hang on Pat, you'll find him soon enough.

-gus
Re:He needs to relax by Anonymous Coward · 2004-11-26 03:25 · Score: 0

As long as you have insurance, hospitals (at least in Fargo where he is) will certainly admit you even if they don't know what's wrong with you.
If you don't have insurance they may not, because they don't want to make a gigantic bill you can't pay back.
Been there, done that (and yes, I live in Fargo)
Re:He needs to relax by Vellmont · 2004-11-26 03:30 · Score: 1, Insightful

Maybe you've never been through the medical industry before, but stories like these are all too common. Doctors don't like to admit when they don't know something, so the default answer becomes "there's nothing wrong with you". Has he overstepped his bounds and tried to self-diagnose? Well yes, obviously. But then again it sounds like that's his only option at this point. The health industry hasn't been able to help him, so he has to force them to help him by continued pestering.

--
AccountKiller
Re:He needs to relax by cmason · 2004-11-26 04:03 · Score: 4, Insightful

He has been to many doctors, and all of them have found little to nothing wrong. ... Statistically, from the number and variety of doctors he's visited, a false negative at this point is incredibly unlikely.
I can't disagree with this strongly enough. This is very true for common illnesses, but very untrue for rare ones. I should know: I was recently diagnosed with Hodgkin's Lymphoma, a rare cancer of the lymph system that about 8,000 people will be diagnosed with this year in the US [1]. I had the symptoms of it (swollen glands, itchiness; ie very nonspecific symptoms) for nigh on 3 years, and had presented repeatedly to multiple doctors, all of whom missed the forest for the trees. I knew something was wrong with me (even, I think subconciously, that I had cancer), but I believed the doctors when they diagnosed allergies, or mononucleosis, or some other prosiac illness. It was not until the disease had spread extensively until it was drop dead obvious that something was really wrong.
I agree with the spirit of your post: he should let the doctors do the diagnosing. However, he should very strongly try to find the right doctors. Just like programmers, there's a huge disparity in talent between the good and the mediocre. Luckily, I found some good ones (I work at Mayo Clinic), and I'm doing much better now.
-c
[1] http://www.lymphomainfo.net/hodgkins/incidence.htm l

--
"If you are an idealist it doesn't matter what you do or what goes on around you, because it isn't real anyway."-R.P.W.
Re:He needs to relax by Twylite · 2004-11-26 04:10 · Score: 4, Insightful

Dude. The other day, a porn site popped up on my computer. Just popped up ; I didn't click anything. I ran Norton Anti-virus. I ran AVG. I ran ad-aware and spybot. I checked Windows update, I rebooted, I swore. Everything told me my computer was fine. Clearly it is, and I am mistaken.

--
i-name =twylite [http://public.xdi.org/=twylite], see idcommons.net
Re:He needs to relax by DarkSarin · 2004-11-26 04:23 · Score: 1

I hope your battle with lymphoma goes well, especially after having not had it diagnosed quickly.

I don't want to depress you or anything, but I truly do hope the best for you. I have seen someone battle with this particular type of cancer and lose, so I can only hope you do better.

Good luck!

--
"We don't know what we are doing, but we are doing it very carefully,..." Wherry, R.J. Personnel Psychology (1995)
Re:He needs to relax by Anonymous Coward · 2004-11-26 04:36 · Score: 0

"That flesh eating disease" is one of the problems, certainly. It is a very rare infection that initially looks exactly like a very common infection. The treatement for the common infection is very simple. The treatment for, and even the proper diagnosis of the rare one involves surgery.

We already pay through the nose for medicine, because they do tests to find low-probability illnesses. To find all cases of flesh eating bacteria would involve thousands of unneccesary surgeries for every one that came back positive. How conservative do we want to be? (Not in the political sense)

So, I do hope that Patrick is not in the 'rare disease that looks like a common disease' situation. I wish he would stick with one good doctor, so that he didn't have to start over at 'lets see if it's this common thing first' every week.
Re:He needs to relax by inkey+string · 2004-11-26 04:51 · Score: 1

Good point. If it's a rare disease that would require a battery of standard tests before a specific confirmatory test, going to several doctors for one round of testing means nothing.

Like some other posters, I'd suggest going to facility with a strong research component (they love strange diseases), sticking with a good doctor, and being a stubborn, but open minded, bastard.

On a completely unrelated topic, the views toward the medical "industry" are new to me. This must be an oddly American attitude... perhaps there may be something to socialised medicine after all, if only in the perception of the patients.
Re:He needs to relax by iive · 2004-11-26 05:02 · Score: 3, Funny

Dude. The other day, a porn site popped up on my computer. Just popped up ; I didn't click anything. I ran Norton Anti-virus. I ran AVG. I ran ad-aware and spybot. I checked Windows update, I rebooted, I swore. Everything told me my computer was fine. Clearly it is, and I am mistaken.
It is only in your imagination, you pervert!! ;-)
Re:He needs to relax by Bastian · 2004-11-26 05:03 · Score: 2, Insightful

Frequently the problem isn't the needs of the big pharmaceutical companies or what have you. It's that nowadays one of the biggest driving motives for a doctor is to not get sued. When you go into the hospital, you are most likely going to get handled in a very by-the-book, mechanical manner, and this is because stepping out of line even a little bit looks terrible in court.
Re:He needs to relax by Anonymous Coward · 2004-11-26 05:17 · Score: 0

Trying to convince your mom you weren't looking at porno? Your explanation might work but it doesn't explain why your hand was in your pants.
Re:He needs to relax by Anonymous Coward · 2004-11-26 05:53 · Score: 1, Insightful

Maybe if you americans stopped suing your Dr's - they wouldn't be so afraid to misdiagnos people.
Re:He needs to relax by Anonymous Coward · 2004-11-26 06:00 · Score: 0

"all of whom missed the forest for the trees."

There, exactly, is what is wrong with North American medicine, among other things. As an example, traditional Chinese medicine routinely takes the big picture, systemic approach. Instead of fighting over which way is right... how about, use them both? Geez.

Our whole North American culture is education-based and ego-driven. Sure way to get people killed: think and act like you know it all. We know a lot; we don't know everything.

Give Pat a break. He's a geek like the rest of us. A chance to work a problem, learn something new, and possibly help someone in the process is what he lives for. Don't let it be what he dies for. (Okay, that was heavy-handed ;-)
Re:He needs to relax by SiliconEntity · 2004-11-26 06:12 · Score: 1

I was recently diagnosed with Hodgkin's Lymphoma, a rare cancer of the lymph system that about 8,000 people will be diagnosed with this year in the US

I'm sorry to hear about this, but you have to understand that by virtue of the fact that yours is a rare case, few people are going to be like you, hence they should not follow advice which assumes that they are in your situation.

My wife is in health care, and I assure you that there are far more people who go from doctor to doctor thinking they are sick when they are actually well, then people who are truly sick but all the doctors can't find the problem. She has had many patients come in with multi-page typed documents describing all their symptoms in detail, all the doctors they have seen, the (infuriation!) non-diagnoses, etc., etc. These patients are obsessed and mentally unbalanced. Their diseases are their whole worlds, they give their lives structure and meaning.

Often the doctors will give them a diagnosis of fibromyalgia, which means pain of unknown origin. The patients seize upon this diagnosis - at last, proof that they are really sick! But my wife knows from hard experience that fibromyalgia really means a patient whom the doctor is just trying to get rid of.

A few patients in this kind of situation, like you, actually do have extremely rare diseases. But there are far more patients than this. For most of them, the problem is only in their heads.

I'm not saying that's the situation with Mr. Volkerding, obviously I am not in a position to know. But it's possible that he is under pressure and it is affecting his judgement on these matters. Being sick is a graceful and socially acceptable way to bow out of stressful situations. If all his doctors say he's OK then frankly it is more probable that something like this is happening than that he has an undiagnosed rare disease which will be identified if he just goes to the right doctor. That's how the probabilities work.
Re:He needs to relax by bigjocker · 2004-11-26 06:15 · Score: 2, Interesting

You could not be more insightful.

My brother has a problem with his inmune system that went unnoticed by doctors for a long time. He has been in and out of clinics his whole life. At one point he developen an infection in one knee that wouldn't stop with anything, even as he was being treated on the best clinic in town (the same he went to all his life). The knee problem only got worse and worse, even after being for over a month in the clinic.

Thank God my parents are biologists, and took the task to themselves to do research over this issue. When they found the first clues to what it was all doctors dismissed them, even being my dad highly regarded in his area of research. It was not after a long time had gone by that they had prepared a whole scientific case and presented it so strongly that the doctors said 'well, lets check if this could be the case'. It turned out my parents were right and for over two months the doctors were treatring my brother the wrong way.

I don't know, and don't want to imagine what had happened if the doctors had kept the same treatment for a few more months, as the infection was growing and, at the time the treatment was changed, it had taken over the whole leg. One month later my brother was out of the clinic.

--
Life isn't like a box of chocolates. It's more like a jar of jalapenos. What you do today, might burn your ass tomorrow.
Re:He needs to relax by Anonymous Coward · 2004-11-26 06:29 · Score: 0

Can you say "missed the point"? Check the context next time before writing such an irrelevant, meaningless response.

(posted anonymously)
Re:He needs to relax by Anonymous Coward · 2004-11-26 06:37 · Score: 0

"It's that nowadays one of the biggest driving motives for a doctor is to not get sued."

So don't stay in america. Unfortunately this is something you have to do before getting the bad illness
Re:He needs to relax by Anonymous Coward · 2004-11-26 07:23 · Score: 0

I was diagnosed with Hodgkin's nearly two years ago, and a month or so before, when I first had symptoms I joked that I might have cancer.

But the truth is that my symptoms (and your early ones) are a perfect match for any number of not at all serious diseases for which the doctor can do very little. Diseases millions of people get every year. So there's pressure on them to do a batch of tests, and if they see anything else, anything except cancer, provide you with the hopeful diagnosis.

There wasn't anything else wrong with me, so I was referred, and they cut a hole in me on the spot. The bit they took was 99% likely cancerous, so they took me in for day surgery to take a larger chunk, and after that I was officially diagnosed.

It took less than twelve months to pretty much fix me (nasty chemo drugs, some hard radiation, but nothing genuinely horrible) and now I await the 5 year mark at which they will announce that I am "cured" on the statistical basis that I'm more likely to die of something else than of whatever cancerous cells remain inside me.
Re:He needs to relax by inc_x · 2004-11-26 09:12 · Score: 1

Thank god that AIDS shows up in lab-results because otherwise AIDS patients would also have been diagnosed as obsessed and mentally unbalanced, most likely supported with references to their lifestyle as proof of their mental unfitness.
Re:He needs to relax by waveman · 2004-11-26 09:22 · Score: 1

> He has been to many doctors, and all of them have found little to nothing wrong. ... Statistically, from the number and variety of doctors he's visited, a false negative at this point is incredibly unlikely.

If you get an illness that is rare but which has symptoms that are common, it is very difficult to get it diagnosed. An example is Cushing's syndrome. The main symptoms are weight gain, depression, lack of energy. Almost always these symptoms are usually caused by something else.

It is particularly bad if the illness has a slow onset. Cushing's for example is often caused by a slow growing tumour. At first the symptoms are mild but they get worse over time. Unfortunately by the time the symptoms are unmistakeable, the doctors have written you off as a neurotic or a hypochondriac. Confirmation bias ensures they do not take a good second look when the facts change. Confirmation bias also operates when one doctor sees another doctor has decided nothing is wrong and so you do not get a true second opinion.

This is why it takes on average 3.5 years to diagnose Cushing's.

The chances of getting a single rare illness is low, but there are many rare illnesses. The chance of getting some rare illness is reasonably large.

I suffered from a rare illness (central serous retinopathy) which took 7 years to diagnose and that was only through dumb luck.

I have also observed that when doctors cannot understand something they blame the patient, saying it is psychological. They almost never say "You are sick but I have no clue what the problem is".
Re:He needs to relax by eclectro · 2004-11-26 11:39 · Score: 1

It is a very rare infection that initially...

The problem is that the bacteria that causes this infection is in fact very common.

For example it resides in the Gulf of Mexico waters. If someone gets cut while swimming there should have cause for concern.

--
Take the cheese to sickbay, the doctor should see it as soon as possible - B'Elanna Torres, "Learning Curve"
Re:He needs to relax by IO+ERROR · 2004-11-26 11:47 · Score: 1

Everything told me my computer was fine. Clearly it is, and I am mistaken.

Yes, but did you check the Microsoft Baseline Security Analyzer? I've had it report missing critical updates that Windows Update never bothered to mention.
Now I know why Patrick wasn't answering my emails, and I feel like a complete jackass.

--
How am I supposed to fit a pithy, relevant quote into 120 characters?
Re:He needs to relax by Twylite · 2004-11-28 18:45 · Score: 1

Yes, but did you check the Microsoft Baseline Security Analyzer? I've had it report missing critical updates that Windows Update never bothered to mention

Interesting -- I hadn't heard this before. Rather disturbing ;/

Actually yes, I use MBSA rather than Windows Update to stay up to date. In fact the problem was that I got nailed by something new, and Spybot had an update within a week that detected and removed it.

--
i-name =twylite [http://public.xdi.org/=twylite], see idcommons.net

Sad, but he's mostly brought this on himself. by i41Overlord · 2004-11-26 02:54 · Score: 0, Troll

When I read the first story about him a couple weeks ago I was surprised to see him self medicating himself with antibiotics.

This is dangerous because doctors always make it a point to tell you not to overdo it with antibiotics and once you decide to take one, run it through its full course and take the full dosage for as long as they tell you to. It's a bad idea to take them only until you "feel" better and then stop, because it gives the infection a chance to grow back, only this time it will be more resistant to that antibiotic.

By doing things half-assed and delaying getting REAL help, he's making the problem worse.

I hope he finally gets the help he needs and gets over this illness, and I'm sure he learned what not to do.

Re:Sad, but he's mostly brought this on himself. by Welsh+Dwarf · 2004-11-26 03:02 · Score: 1, Informative

RTFAs aand get a clue before posting, htis guy never self medicated, as is stated here
http://slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=129902&cid=108 33936

--
Ask 8 slackers a question, get 10 awnsers (a citation, but I can't remember from who)
Re:Sad, but he's mostly brought this on himself. by KontinMonet · 2004-11-26 03:20 · Score: 2, Insightful

Don't overdo the antibiotics? Are you in the US? Antibiotics (eg: tetracycline, penicillin and streptomycin) are used as growth promoters in cattle and other animals. Antibiotic resistance genes are being transferred from the environment into our bodies: New Scientist for the scary details.

--
Did he inhale?
Re:Sad, but he's mostly brought this on himself. by Anonymous Coward · 2004-11-26 03:25 · Score: 0

Mod parent moron down.
Re:Sad, but he's mostly brought this on himself. by flibberdi · 2004-11-26 04:24 · Score: 1

That is crazy!! Medicate cattle to get them to grow!!

How about medicate Humans with cattle-designed-medicine (FINA - tren-acetate) to make US grow!!

It's all crazy, doing crazy things will eventually give some bad results, badass bacterias or shrunken balls...bad things will happen.

Comment removed by account_deleted · 2004-11-26 02:54 · Score: 2, Interesting

Comment removed based on user account deletion

I'm touched. by holderofthering · 2004-11-26 02:56 · Score: 1

I think it means Slashdot cares, when they all post anonymously.

Check him in by LiquidCoooled · 2004-11-26 02:56 · Score: 3, Funny

Lots of people are saying he should be checking himself into a clinic.

I personally think he should be checked into CVS.

Thats way, at least we have a backup..just in case :(

--
liqbase :: faster than paper

Re:Check him in by LnxAddct · 2004-11-26 07:58 · Score: 1

We could just revert to a stable branch too.
-Steve

recent trend by untaken_name · 2004-11-26 02:56 · Score: 5, Interesting

I've noticed that in the last few years (maybe it's just my perspective, I don't know) doctors seem less and less likely to actually listen to their patients. I have recurring tonsilitis that I get at least once a year and usually more. I have been going through this since I was 6, when the doctors refused to take my tonsils out even though my mother wanted them to. Now the blood vessels are too big to make it a safe operation. Anyhow, I know what needs to be done and what I am suffering from, as I've been dealing with this for 23 years. However, I find that I have to make appointments with 3 or 4 doctors before I find one that listens to me at all. The others will go 'uh huh, uh huh, yeah, uh huh.' Then they give me some test for strep throat or send me away with a low dose of penicillin or something else that doesn't help me get better. Why is it that even if we use technical terms, doctors won't listen? Mr. Volkerding clearly at least has *some* idea of what he's talking about, and I find it sickening that his doctors are paying so little attention to what he says. I don't even like it when it happens to me with a much less serious condition, I can't even imagine the frustration I would feel were I seriously ill and my doctor treated me with that much contempt. Health care costs keep rising, doctors keep leaving the high litigation states, and the ones who are left don't listen to (or even seem to care about) their patients... This is a serious problem that needs a solution fast.

--
http://xkcd.com/386/

Re:recent trend by Anonymous Coward · 2004-11-26 03:05 · Score: 0

weird, im 22 and had similar problems, and they took my tonsils out at age 12.. but yeah doctors never listen
Re:recent trend by jarich · 2004-11-26 03:10 · Score: 1

I've noticed that in the last few years (maybe it's just my perspective, I don't know) doctors seem less and less likely to actually listen to their patients.
Find a good doctor and STICK WITH THEM! So many people bounce around from one doctor's practice to another and then (big surprise!) your new doctor doesn't know you, doesn't know your history and doesn't want to waste the time doing either (they know you'll be leaving them for another practice in a few months anyway).
Patrick doesn't seem to have found a good doc yet... but this applies to everyone. I've got a PA (Physician's Assistant) that I've followed when she switched practices. She knows me, my wife, knows our medical history and does a great job.
This goes contrary to the philophy of switching doctors (or car mechanics or hardware store or whatever) if you can save a buck... but it makes life much easier to work with people that you know.

--
Agile Artisans
Re:recent trend by Anonymous Coward · 2004-11-26 03:23 · Score: 0

Part of the problem is that there's a lot of people who do crap self-diagnoses. They get a scratch and demand antibiotics, have a cough and are convinced that it's fatal pneumonia. Doctors are basically slowly trained over the course of their careers to ignore people who claim to have done the research and 'know' what they have and 'know' the solution.

So... how do you tell the difference between a hypochrondriac and someone with no apparent symptoms except massive discomfort?

It sucks, but, there's this tendancy to be incredibly afraid of disease and filth in general, and it just leads to superbugs and a lot of false positives, rather than resolving any real threat.
Re:recent trend by Beetjebrak · 2004-11-26 04:36 · Score: 2, Interesting

Same goes for tech.. We don't listen to end users proposing a solution to their problem when they call the helpdesk. In fact, it's annoying to get wise-ass end users on the line. We're just as guilty as the doctors!

--
Learn from the mistakes of others. There isn't enough time to make them all yourself.
Re:recent trend by krbvroc1 · 2004-11-26 04:46 · Score: 1

I don't think it is fair to blame them for that. When tech people follow a troubleshooting process, they need to be careful of being too biased from what the user says. The majority of users are not informed--they few who are suffer. Unfortunately, without a relationship/trust between a doctor and patient, there should be a reluctance to skip all the troubleshooting steps because the patient thinks they already know the problem.

How many times as a programmer has someone told you that something doesn't work and they claim to have isolated the issue. After a long debugging session you find out it was something very simple and at a much higher level than what the person was so focused on.

A new doctor does need to not be biased until they establish a baseline. That is not to say that the patient cannot be an effective member of a team trying to solve the problem. But how would you like to spend so much time, effort, and money focused on one area when the problem lies elsewhere.
Re:recent trend by chud67 · 2004-11-26 05:14 · Score: 3, Insightful

I've noticed that in the last few years (maybe it's just my perspective, I don't know) doctors seem less and less likely to actually listen to their patients.
I have noticed this too. Now before I say what I'm about to say let me just preface my comments by saying that I'm a conservative with a lot of doctors in my family, and in the past I have been staunchly against socialized medicine and gov't involvement in medicine. However recent events involving my mom's medical condition have led me to change my views.
A few years ago my mom was having lots of problems and went to her general practitioner (g.p.). The gp wanted to do all kinds of strange tests and procedures that didn't seem to really relate to the symptoms she was describing (my dad is an ophthalmologist so he had some idea that something strange was going on). It seemed to me that the doctor was trying to do procedures and tests that he knew my mom's insurance would cover and that he would get paid for. This went on for a while and my mom never could find out what was wrong.
A couple of months later we were in Rome and my mom collapsed in St Peters Basilica. We took her to an emergency room in Rome and a young doctor talked to her and my dad and asked them what her symptoms were. He seemed genuinely interested and listened to what she had to say. Since she had described symptoms that seemed to relate to circulation and her heart he did the obvious: he did an ultrasound of her chest area and found that she indeed had a circulation problem and isolated exactly where it was. Why didn't the American doctors think of doing this simple and obvious test?!? Well I may be cynical, but I believe they didn't do it because there was no money in it for them to do an ultrasound since it probably wasn't on the HMO/PPO's list of 'approved' tests that the doctor would get paid for.
By the way, the italian ER doctor gave my mom some medicine and advice about how to proceed when she went back to America, and didn't charge her a dime. It was incredible to have a doctor genuinely care about a patient and do everything he could for her, and have the issue of money not even come up at all (although my parents were willing and able to pay if they had been asked to).
After returning to America my mom was able to explain to her American doctors what the problem was and is now able to actually get proper treatment.
Now don't get me wrong, there are many good doctors in America, however their attitude towards their patients is affected by the environment that they do business in. For example, one of my relatives (who is a doctor) told me that with HMOs your doctor ceases to be your advocate and becomes your adversary. Why? Because of capitation; the doctor gets paid a set amount per month and if more patients than usual come in one month then his profit per patient is lower. It is in the doctor's best interest (business-wise) to see you as little as possible because he gets paid the same whether you're there or not. This and many other rules that insurance companies force upon doctors force the doctors, no matter how much they want to care for their patients, to view the patient as an adversary that is costing them money.
I don't know if socialized medicine (a la 'Hillary') is the answer, but certainly our current medical/insurance industry is a problem.
Re:recent trend by FurryFeet · 2004-11-26 05:34 · Score: 2, Insightful

I've noticed that in the last few years (maybe it's just my perspective, I don't know) computer support seem less and less likely to actually listen to their users. I have recurring popups in my PC that I get at least once a day and usually more. I have been going through this since the PC was new, when the techies refused to change the hard disk even though I wanted them to. Now I have too many files to make it a safe operation. Anyhow, I know what needs to be done and what I am suffering from, as I've been dealing with this for years. However, I find that I have to make appointments with 3 or 4 techies before I find one that listens to me at all. The others will go 'uh huh, uh huh, yeah, uh huh.' Then they give me some spyware checkers, or antivirus, or something else that doesn't help me get better. Why is it that even if we use technical terms, techies won't listen? Mr. Volkerding clearly at least has *some* idea of what he's talking about, and I find it sickening that his techies are paying so little attention to what he says. I don't even like it when it happens to me with a much less serious condition, I can't even imagine the frustration I would feel if my PC was hosed and the techies treated me with that much contempt. Tech support costs keep rising, techies keep getting fired, and the ones who are left don't listen to (or even seem to care about) their users... This is a serious problem that needs a solution fast.
Re:recent trend by Anonymous Coward · 2004-11-26 06:01 · Score: 0

And when customers are _really_ clueful, they ask for engineering, not tech support.
Re:recent trend by wintermute740 · 2004-11-26 06:12 · Score: 1

"I've noticed that in the last few years (maybe it's just my perspective, I don't know) doctors seem less and less likely to actually listen to their patients."

I agree, but disagree. My family doctor will do nothing for my wife that she doesn't suggest herself. I went to the same doctor with pain in my knees. He examins them and they make a ton of popping noises while he is doing so. Then he says he can find nothing wrong. He'd be glad to order x-rays, but he's sure there's nothing wrong so they would be a waste. So, I continue to live with the pain in my knees that I've had for 20 years.

Luckily, my wife sees a specialist for her diabetes. Unfortunately, that doctor does not believe her when she says that the oral meds are what cause her to have chest pains, even though those pains only occur when she's on oral meds. She stops those meds, and the pains go away, but the doctor gets upset when she stops taking those meds.

More on-topic: Good luck, Patrick. I hope things turn out well for you... I fondly remember the day I downloaded the A series disks for Slackware 0.96 and installed them... Changed my life forever :)

--

--
www.nitemarecafe.com
Re:recent trend by dasunt · 2004-11-26 08:47 · Score: 2, Informative

I've noticed that in the last few years (maybe it's just my perspective, I don't know) doctors seem less and less likely to actually listen to their patients. I have recurring tonsilitis that I get at least once a year and usually more. I have been going through this since I was 6, when the doctors refused to take my tonsils out even though my mother wanted them to.

So basically, you are trusting your mother's medical judgement over your doctor's medical judgement?

IANAD, but googling, there seems to be some debate in the medical community about the value of tonsillectomies in children, especially considering that they sometimes grow back. According to the usual sources, roughly one in twenty tonsillectomies require emergency surgery days later to stop bleeding.

Sure, a lot of the bedside manner of doctors couleld be improved, but the average doctor probably knows more than you. If you go to several experts and discount their diagnosises, perhaps you are right -- but I would bet that the majority of the time, you would be wrong.

As for the antibiotics, let me tell you a tale:

About a year ago, I got pretty damn sick. In my own manner, I stayed in bed. I didn't drink all the fluids I should have, and became a tad dehydrated. On the way to the loo, the floor moved sideways, and I ended up falling down, which was the point my wife ended up taking me to urgent care.

After a bit of saline, and a few tests, the doctors prescribed some antibiotics. Being a well-read lad, I asked about if they were really effective -- how did he know that I had a bacterial infection rather than a virus.

The answer was interesting. He admitted he didn't know. But in a large percentage of people with my symptoms, it was due to a bacterial infection. The antibiotics cost less then the lab work, and the lab work took time, meaning that if I did have a bacterial infection, I wouldn't get effective treatment until after the tests.
Re:recent trend by killjoe · 2004-11-26 09:41 · Score: 1

If everything you say is true why aren't you suing the doctor for malpractice?

May people bemoan malpractice suits but clealy the doctor had no intention of helping you mother just wanted to run some tests, get paid, and get rid of your mother till the next time. This is exactly why malpractice suits exist.

I too have horror stories and I think most people who have dealt with the health care industry do too. Nothing ever gets done because the minute anybody suggests anything new (hillary for example) the doctors, insurance companies, and right wing radio/tv personalities spring into action and start screaming socialism at the top of their lungs.

Here is how I would solve the problem.

1) If a doctor is found guilty of malpractice the hospital has to pay for all the medical care and lost wages past and present and the doctor can't practice medicine for a month.

2) Second time the doctor gets licence pulled for a year.

3) Three strikes and you are out. No more practising medicine for you. You are fired.

That's it. No huge monetary damages you just get canned. Let's get rid of the crappy doctors.

--
evil is as evil does
Re:recent trend by Simon+Garlick · 2004-11-26 11:13 · Score: 1

doctors seem less and less likely to actually listen to their patients

More like "doctors are more and more scared of getting sued into bankruptcy at the drop of a hat by every hypochondriac who gets a cold and thus don't want to do anything that would make them look incompetent in a courtroom, such as taking advice and diagnoses from persons with no medical training".

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PGP Key ID 0xCB8FF658
Re:recent trend by eclectro · 2004-11-26 11:50 · Score: 1

I don't know if socialized medicine (a la 'Hillary') is the answer, but certainly our current medical/insurance industry is a problem

It's amazing how Hillary was belittled and her ideas dissed about healthcare.

AT LEAST she was willing to do something about healthcare, where it is not even on the radar of the current administration. Don't tell me that it is either, as my insurance rates are so high I have to drop out like countless other americans.

I swear, the only people who voted for Bush were people who were not feeling sick.

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Take the cheese to sickbay, the doctor should see it as soon as possible - B'Elanna Torres, "Learning Curve"
Re:recent trend by winwar · 2004-11-26 13:29 · Score: 1

"He admitted he didn't know. But in a large percentage of people with my symptoms, it was due to a bacterial infection. The antibiotics cost less then the lab work, and the lab work took time, meaning that if I did have a bacterial infection, I wouldn't get effective treatment until after the tests."

Well, I would call that a good doctor.

Still don't like the willingness to prescribe antibiotics when they might not be needed but at least most cases seem to need them. I mean if you were otherwise healthly and could wait for the test, I would say overuse of antibiotics is a worse problem. But then, I don't have all the facts and the doctor made a reasonable call.
Re:recent trend by winwar · 2004-11-26 13:43 · Score: 1

"So... how do you tell the difference between a hypochrondriac and someone with no apparent symptoms except massive discomfort?"

Umm, become a good doctor? I mean, if you can't tell the difference as a doctor, do one of two things:
1. treat all your patients (don't assume your patients are lying)
2. if you can't do number 1, do your profession a favor and leave it.

I only go to a doctor when I need to (my life is severely impacted), yet I am rarely treated for things like severe pain (outside of an emergency room). A lot of doctors if they can't see it, it doesn't exist. Those types of doctors, frankly, suck. You don't penalize patients who need treatment because some fake it (intentionally or unintentionally).
Re:recent trend by nido · 2004-11-26 15:08 · Score: 1

I don't know if socialized medicine (a la 'Hillary') is the answer, but certainly our current medical/insurance industry is a problem.

I offer another point for your consideration: Medicine in the united states suffers from a state-imposed monopoly given to a certain brand of healer. Consider the following articles:

100 years of Medical Robery
Real Medical Freedom

It seems to me that ending the "Medical Doctor" monopoly seems like a better first step than socializing a broken system.

--
Learn the rules so you know how to break them properly.
www.teslabox.com
Re:recent trend by antirename · 2004-11-26 17:30 · Score: 1

I wouldn't rate doctors on their bedside manner. Ever. I had to have reconstructive surgery on my face some years ago, and that docter still has my respect. Told me the real odds of success, and said he was better than average so trust him. When I woke up he was pressing on the places he'd worked on, wanting to know if it hurt. The answer, of course, was "Hell yes that hurts". The reply was "good, that means I didn't cut any nerves". That's the kind of answer I like.
Re:recent trend by untaken_name · 2004-11-27 02:42 · Score: 1

The problem with the system is exactly that we have been attempting to socialize it for years. Now, office visits 'cost' $70-80 bucks, although most people only pay $10 or $15. Tests 'cost' hundreds or thousands, although most people pay only a fraction of that. Aspirin in hospitals 'costs' $60-$80. It's ridiculous. Doctors who come in your room, look at your chart, and say 'hmm. Interesting,' get hundreds of dollars in 'consulting' fees. The more control we have imposed on the system, the worse the system works. Look to Canada for what will happen to us here eventually. Sure, everyone gets 'free' health care...but it certainly isn't care I would want in many cases. Why is it that we in the US have such a hard time learning from the experiences of other countries?

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http://xkcd.com/386/
Re:recent trend by untaken_name · 2004-11-27 02:57 · Score: 1

I know that people often confuse working computers with 'life', but there's a difference. I realize that you're saying I don't know what I'm talking about re: my medical condition, and you are equating it with a clueless person talking to computer tech support. However, if a person came to me and said they needed a new hard drive because the old one failed due to stiction, I would at least check it out. So, for future reference, health problems actually affect people's lives. I know you think computer problems do too, but you're incorrect. However, I will say that a lot of techs don't listen. This doesn't generally lead to death, however. I salute your compassion, sir. It reminds me of the warm, loving embrace of the grave.

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http://xkcd.com/386/
Re:recent trend by untaken_name · 2004-11-27 03:42 · Score: 1

So basically, you are trusting your mother's medical judgement over your doctor's medical judgement?

No. My mother took me to a few doctors but couldn't afford to have them perform the operation, although they unanimously recommended it. As my father was active-duty air force at the time, the AF doctor was the one we could afford to have perform the operation, and he refused to do it. Since then, I have been told by specialists that my risk of dying on the table is non-trivial if I get my tonsils taken out. It's not super high, but it's higher than I'm comfortable with. This is because of the size of the blood vessels in my tonsils, I have been told. Now, I deal with extemely large tonsils which cause me to get sick a few times a year. Sometimes I have to get the crypts cleaned out, which is fun, lemme tellya.

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http://xkcd.com/386/
Re:recent trend by untaken_name · 2004-11-27 03:49 · Score: 1

There's a major difference between listening to what a patient has to say (and checking it out) and 'taking advice and diagnoses from persons with no medical training'. Sorry. Your argument does not wash. I am not complaining that doctors don't unquestioningly treat me exactly as I tell them to. I'm complaining that they don't listen to me even when I *do* know what I'm talking about, and don't even bother to attempt to verify it. For example, I have taken antibiotics in varying doses since I was 5 years old. Penicillin, for example, doesn't seem to help me anymore. Yet I am still given penicillin the first time I go to a doctor for this condition. (As a contractor, I move a lot, which makes it impossible to find a single doctor and stick with him or her.) It isn't that doctors don't treat me exactly as I want them to, it's that they don't even listen at all, then when the penicillin doesn't work as I've told them it won't, they always act surprised. It gets really old. I may not have medical training but I know that if penicillin doesn't work for me four or five times, it isn't likely to work the sixth. Yet I am still given penicillin. That's the kind of thing I'm talking about.

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http://xkcd.com/386/
Re:recent trend by FurryFeet · 2004-11-28 05:27 · Score: 1

You missed my point.
Yes, you can and should try to get a good medical attenticn. What I think happens sometimes --and I'm not saying it is yours or Patrick's case-- is analog to a user wanting a new hard disk to get rid of his popups problem. Namely, that usually --not always, but usually-- the doctor knows best.
All I know about Patrick is that he's a great hacker. I don't know anything about his doctors. Yet, if he has consulted what, seven, eight of them, and none of them concurs with his selfdiagnosis, Occam's Razor says that Patrick's diagnosis should be wrong.
What is irking to doctors is patients that insist that "I know what's wrong with me, you should operate and extract this or that", when the doctor knows for sure that is not true. We all have encountered users like that; I was trying to use the analogy to give an idea of what doctors feel in that situation.
There are doctors in my family, and let me tell you, they work a hell of a lot harder for that medical degree than we do for our IT ones. So, disregarding their medical opinion with just a "he's a doctor, he doesn't know anything about medicine and doesn't care about his patients" is more than a little rude.
Thanks for keeping this civil. I know a lot of other people would have flamed me mercilessly. :)
Re:recent trend by untaken_name · 2004-11-28 11:15 · Score: 1

I wasn't saying that doctors never know what they're talking about. I was saying that the trend is to not even pay any attention whatsoever to what a patient says. As I said, it's as though a person came to me with a non-working computer and said 'I think the MB is dead' and instead of checking to see if the MB really is dead, I start testing the RAM, CPU, hard disk, and totally ignore the MB. It isn't even self-diagnosis I'm talking about. It's valid medical information such as how recently I've taken certain antibiotics and how many times I've taken certain antibiotics and in what dosages. I'm not saying that I know more than most doctors about tonsilitis, I'm saying that I've dealt with it enough, done enough research, and talked to enough doctors over the years to at least know *something* about it. It's when my opinion is not only not heeded but totally blown off entirely that I get mad. I tell doctors "I've had penicillin tons in my life, it doesn't seem to work anymore," and still they give me penicillin. I take it, it doesn't work...and they seem surprised. It's a well-known fact that taking the same antibiotic multiple times in successive years lessens its effectiveness. Yet still they give me penicillin. Sigh. I'm not saying they should amputate on my orders, but at least they could pretend to listen to what I'm saying. Since it is my body, I am ultimately responsible, not them. I understand that not everyone gives good info to their doctors, but part of their job should be to listen and investigate. Just because I don't have a medical degree doesn't mean that I am completely ignorant and useless. An accountant might not have a CS degree, but assuming that he/she therefore has absolutely no programming knowledge is foolish. Even when my clients tell me that they think they 'clicked too hard' or 'every time I hit g, q, and x at the same time, the system locks' or whatever...I may privately think they are stupid or ignorant, but I'll listen to what they say. Every now and then, the customer is correct. Even if they're wrong, it's better for me to explain to them how they are wrong, and show them. Doctors should provide at least that courtesy, as my health is quite a bit more important to me than a computer is to most people.

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http://xkcd.com/386/

Re:The problem with Patrick... by Anonymous Coward · 2004-11-26 02:56 · Score: 0

> he self-medicated for a long time.

http://science.slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=1299 02&cid=10833936

Re:The problem with Patrick... by Welsh+Dwarf · 2004-11-26 02:57 · Score: 3, Informative

Seriously, if you kept yourself informed, you'd realise by now that Pat was _never_ self medicating, when he was on antibiotics it was always under perscription.

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Ask 8 slackers a question, get 10 awnsers (a citation, but I can't remember from who)

Re:The problem with Patrick... by marika · 2004-11-26 02:58 · Score: 0

I am with you on that. See a doctor, if you are not happy with what this one said see another one. You are in charge of your own life but you can't play doctor on yourself.

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This is totally insecure, but very convenient.

Re:The problem with Patrick... by Gothmolly · 2004-11-26 02:58 · Score: 1

RTFP, and RTFOriginalP, he wasn't self medicating. How can you get prescription antibiotics w/o consulting a doctor? Estupido..

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I want to delete my account but Slashdot doesn't allow it.

Re:Jeez... by Sai+Babu · 2004-11-26 02:59 · Score: 3, Informative

Finding a good doc is like finding a sysadmin (or car mechanic, or plumber, or electronics engineer) who actually knows how things work as opposed to being adept at the 'good practices' dance.

About 15 years back a friend had psittacosis that was so bad they had him on IV antibiotics for a year. It's pretty rare in humans and usually not so severe.

It took him forever to find a doc who recognized what he had.

I'm no doc, but common sense would suggest that if symptoms suggest an infectious agent, sampling and investigation of the site of infection would be in order.

As for docs, I had one who looked at an x-ray of my hand in which three bones were clearly broken with a good 3/8 inch between the broken ends and tell me that my hand was fine! Even the x-ray tech didn't see the breaks. It was a surreal experience. Ditto for my moms fractured pelvis (she fell through a rotten section of floor in a building we we're thinking of buying). X-ray tech and doctor did not see the fracture until I pointed it out on the film. They were going to send her home with some pain killers!

Last example was bicep torn completely off the bone in my forearm. Pretty obvious something was wrong. Bicep all bunched up near my shoulder. It was the THIRD doctor who looked at it that finally agreed something was wrong (although he still misdiagnosed). Finally found a good orthpedist who had seen the condition (pretty unusual) before.

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Now I'm the grandest Tiger in the Jungle!

What scares me.. by Chicane-UK · 2004-11-26 02:59 · Score: 2, Informative

Is that because none of the doctors or hospitals are able to immediately diagnose these problems, they are just sending him away.

Surely they should have him in until they get to the bottom of this! Our NHS may be in pretty rough shape but you if staggered into hospital with some of the symptoms he has been having, he'd be in a bed and getting looked at and wouldn't be allowed to leave until he was fixed up, or at least they had identified the problem and knew how dangerous it was and what they needed to do to fix it!

Scary, really scary. Good luck Patrick.

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"Hey! Unless this is a nude love-in, get the hell off my property!!"

Re:What scares me.. by soops1966 · 2004-11-26 03:14 · Score: 1

You forget that getting admitted to one of our NHS hospitals means getting rid of the disease you *do* have and replacing it with another, far more virulent - possibly even fatal one.
Re:What scares me.. by op00to · 2004-11-26 17:48 · Score: 1

Did it ever occur to you that he may be making this up/'thinking' that he's having these symptoms when he's really not? I could walk into a hospital and say 'HELP MY ARM IS CUT OFF', and if the doctor looks at me and sees I have an arm, he is not going to cauterize the non-existant stump or whatever they do in that situation.

Get Well by m3g4ch3f · 2004-11-26 02:59 · Score: 0, Redundant

I've only played with Linux for the last 2 years and Slackware has been my favourite distro by far. I sincerely hope that someone can help you. Good luck and get well soon.

Re:Best of luck (Me too!) by salvorHardin · 2004-11-26 02:59 · Score: 0, Redundant

Let's make this a sponsored 'me-too' thread. If we can beat the world record (which undoubtedly goes to AOL forums, or possibly some of the darker corners of USERNET), we might raise enough cash to develop a cure!

RTFM by DarthBobo · 2004-11-26 03:00 · Score: 5, Insightful

This fucking ridiculous.

If he is as sick as he says, _any_ physician would insist on having him hospitalized and having multiple consultants see him (notably, infectious disease and oncology.) He symptoms suggest a progressive disease that requires agressive intervention - and that doesn't mean trials of expensive antibiotics.

He has either failed to see a primary care physician, or he has refused appropriate treatment and admission to a hospital. In either case, as an educated, intelligent man he has made his own decision. Slashdot should not be contributing to his decline by enabling his poor decisions. He needs to be told flat out by his friends that they are not going to work with him until he agrees to admission and workup at a major teaching hospital (which, by the way, will have access to every antibiotic in the world.)

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+--------------------- You idiot! I told you we were facing the wrong way!

Re:RTFM by BLAG-blast · 2004-11-26 03:36 · Score: 1

He has either failed to see a primary care physician, or he has refused appropriate treatment and admission to a hospital.
That fact you don't know leaves me thinking, you didn't RTFA... which is kind of funny since you act like you know "he has".
Please, don't bother, you're not helpful.

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M0571y H@rml355.
Re:RTFM by Vellmont · 2004-11-26 03:37 · Score: 1

Actually if you had paid a little attention he said he went to the Mayo Clinic, which is a world renowned treatment center. It doesn't sound like he's sick enough to be admitted to a hospital. Maybe he has been offered hospitalization, but given that you didn't even notice he mentioned the Mayo perhaps you should defer judgement.

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AccountKiller
Re:RTFM by the_rev_matt · 2004-11-26 03:40 · Score: 3, Insightful

You're clearly not familiar with HMO's. The purpose of doctors in that context is to minimize the expense of caring for people, not to do everything reasonably possible to nurse them back to health.

I think it's great that we've taken the tricky work of medical care out of the hands of doctors and given accountants the authority to make all the life and death decisions.

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this is getting old and so are you
blog
Re:RTFM by tzanger · 2004-11-26 04:11 · Score: 1

He should go back and stand up and walk around until he faints on the ground like he says he will do. I can't help but feel we're missing some nugget of information -- the sulfur granules, the chest pain... all this stuff I can't believe gets ignored by docs even at walk-in clinics. Slackware's my distro of choice and Pat's a hero to me but there is something he's leaving out in what he's making public. Something ...

Then again I'm in Canada -- I've never had issue walking into an Urgent Care clinic or seeing my GP -- is it really that different in the U.S.? (I thought Pat was Australian?)
Re:RTFM by Anonymous Coward · 2004-11-26 04:49 · Score: 0

Excuse a foreigner - but what's a 'HMO'?
Re:RTFM by the_rev_matt · 2004-11-26 05:14 · Score: 1

Health Management Organization. A bureacracy that takes all medical expertise out of the equation and just looks at the dollar cost of doing procedure X versus the perceived value of having it done. If they think it makes more sense financially to not cover a procedure, then they deny treatment.

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this is getting old and so are you
blog
Re:RTFM by my_fake_account · 2004-11-26 05:25 · Score: 1

Health Maintenance Organization-- an insurance company.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HMO
Re:RTFM by DarthBobo · 2004-11-26 05:33 · Score: 1

He clearly saw a number of ER docs and at least one "Doc in A Box", what he didn't clearly say was that he chose a primary care physician and went back to see them. Thats very, very different. Its an approach that doesn't work in software, and one that doesn't work in medicine.

Because I did "RTFA" I can say his story isn't credible.

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+--------------------- You idiot! I told you we were facing the wrong way!
Re:RTFM by DarthBobo · 2004-11-26 05:39 · Score: 1

If his story is true, he is much sicker than 90% of patients in US hospitals. The tests he needs are not done on an outpatient basis, and someone his age who has developed valvular dysfunction (a failing heart for God's sake) is always worked up agressively. If he is embellishing, or not telling the whole story its a different matter.

Going to the Mayo Clinic is _not_ the same thing as being admitted to their hospital. You could be seen at their walk-in clinic, in their ER, at an associated satellit clinic, by a physician's assistant, by a nurse practioner, by a first year resident. Its not even in the same ballpark. Its like saying you talked to a programmer at Microsoft - it doesn't mean squat. You need to have worked your way up the latter until you saw one of their top people to get any of the benefit.

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+--------------------- You idiot! I told you we were facing the wrong way!
Re:RTFM by Anonymous Coward · 2004-11-26 07:09 · Score: 0

Expense? That's what taxes are for.
Re:RTFM by swv3752 · 2004-11-26 07:32 · Score: 1

Mitral valve Prolapse is otherwise known as a heart murmur. virtually no Doc wants to admit that it is not always a genetic/birth disorder but something that can result from an infection.

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Just a Tuna in the Sea of Life
Re:RTFM by Anonymous Coward · 2004-11-27 00:09 · Score: 0

Do you really think anything in this whole thread, other than some best wishes and get wells, would make a difference? If you thought getting law advice from Slashdot was bad, do you really trust any of the doctors?

Who cares if he read the article or not.
Re:RTFM by ottawanker · 2004-11-27 00:19 · Score: 1

IANAD, but I thought it was well known that infections such as Rheumatic fever cause damaged heart valves. My father certainly had a heart murmur caused by this when he was younger, but it has since repaired itself.

Not only that, many of his symptoms do seem to be related to an infection such as Rheumatic fever. However, if it were an infection such as that you would expect some other complications, and it would also possibly be contagious.

The symptoms of Rheumatic Fever:
Fever, Joint pain, migratory arthritis (involving primarily knees, elbows, ankles, and wrists), Joint swelling, Abdominal pain, Skin rash (erythema marginatum), Skin eruption on the trunk and upper part of arms or legs, Eruptions that are ring-shaped or snake-like in appearance, Skin nodules, Sydenham's chorea (emotional instability, muscular weakness and rapid, uncoordinated jerky movements affecting primarily the face, feet and hands), Epistaxis (nosebleeds), Cardiac involvement which may be asymptomatic or may result in shortness of breath, chest pain, etc..

Complications of Rheumatic Fever:
Damage to heart valves (in particular, mitral stenosis and aortic stenosis), Endocarditis, Heart failure, Arrhythmias, Pericarditis, Sydenham's chorea.

Re:Plan Of Action by bigpat · 2004-11-26 03:01 · Score: 1

I believe he was seeking a doctor or someone with some direct experience who recognized the symptoms, not someone who doesn't know what the problem is to go tell him to go see yet another doctor.

For those of you who refuse to care enough to read the account, he HAS been to several doctors who have been unable to diagnose the problem and treat it successfully.

So, if there is someone out there that is a doctor or knows a doctor or someone who has been sick recently, had these symptoms and was diagnosed and successfully treated, then that might actually be useful if you could take a look at this and spend a few minutes to think about it. Or recommend a good doctor in his area.

Its no better up here... by Stone316 · 2004-11-26 03:01 · Score: 1

I really sympathize with him... I've been having a pain in my right side for over a year now. I've seen 2 doctors and a specialist and they still aren't 100% sure what the problem is. I've had 3-4 xrays, a bone scan, at least 2 ultrasounds, a scope and the pain is still there. What I have found is that its very hard to find a compedent doctor.

My pain is sporadic, its more annoying than painfull, i'd say maybe a 3/10. But after awhile you start to get tired of constantly feeling pain. My only choice, like him, is to keep seeing doctors and research on my own to toss out possible causes/solutions because they sure as hell don't have any ideas or aren't burning the midnight oil trying to find out whats going on.

I'm sure my doctors dread seeing me coming and thing i'm a hypochondriac (maybe I am, maybe its stress?) or something but what am I supposed to do? Ignore it and hope it goes away? Personally I don't care how annoyed people get with me, cracking jokes like i'm falling apart, etc. I want to be around to see my kids grow up.

2 things to note, if your not a citizen you will have to pay for treatment. And if they refer you to a specialist I hope your sticking around for 4-6 months because thats how long it takes to get an appointment up here.

--
"Thanks to the remote control I have the attention span of a gerbil."

Re:Its no better up here... by Anonymous Coward · 2004-11-26 03:12 · Score: 0

I had a similar problem with right side pain, that started after I did some heavy lifting wrong. Went to a physio after I'd had the pain (though it'd decreased a lot) for 2 years, and he recommended a few exercises and got me enrolled in a gym.

After a few months, the pain had gone. My side is still occasionally a bit tender, but it doesn't bother me day to day.

I'm not saying you have the same problem, but torn muscles exacerbated by poor posture can really give you pain that doesn't go away by itself. Try some exercise, and sit up straight. :)
Re:Its no better up here... by jaraxle · 2004-11-26 05:01 · Score: 1

I have something that sounds similar. Pain on my right side, concentrated in the hip/lower back area. Most times it's just an annoyance, but sometimes when I get up from sitting or lying down, the pain is so bad that it's hard to walk, and sometimes my leg wants to buckle. (see comment here)
I've been to my family doctor, a back specialist, chiropractor, physio, and even acupuncture. Nothing has helped. The only ray of light that I've had was when just over a year ago I was hospitalized because the pain was so bad and had moved to my abdomen. I was diagnosed with kidney stones, and sent home/readmitted to the hospital 3 times over the course of as many days. Finally, I passed the stones and the pain went away for a long time. However, it came back this past summer. One night it was so bad, I went back to the hospital (thanks to my fiancee), but I felt like I was treated as if the doctor didn't believe me (he didn't do any tests aside from moving my leg around a bit, asking if it hurt), given some Oxycocet, and sent away.
Right now, the pain doesn't even bug me, but I know it's still there. I've pretty much given up... doctors don't see anything (have had numerous X-rays, a couple CT scans, a bone scan, urine tests, and ultrasound), and the pain I describe doesn't sound like anything familiar to any doctor I've talked to, aside from sciatica. The doctors don't even consider anything worse than that, and I just pop a couple T3 when the pain is too bad and go on with my life.
And I've really scared myself researching my symptoms. I've seen possiblities of everything from cancer to Necro-something or other (has to do with not enough blood in the area causing the joint and tissue to wither and die). Fortunately I'm self-deluded enough to not think that anything like that could happen to me :-) but god forbid for my fiancee and kids if it is something as serious as that.
~jaraxle
Re:Its no better up here... by Eudaemonic+Pie · 2004-11-26 06:29 · Score: 1

LOL, I (no pun intended) feel your pain. The first doctor to treat me for a looooong term (5+ years) low grade pain I'd been suffering said (no kidding) pulled muscle. I gave up and went away, but 6 months later (after she left the staff of this teaching clinic) tried again... 1 CAT scan later I was diagnosied with diverticulitis.

Scary is right... by Gothmolly · 2004-11-26 03:01 · Score: 2, Insightful

If this is the same NHS that wastes money on novacaine shots for people donating blood, who, after you donate, suggest that you go drink some caffeine, and if you have a non-life-threatening problem (ingrown toenail), you get bumped FOR YEARS waiting for surgery? I was there, I paid for it, I have the NHS card to prove it. And it sucks.

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I want to delete my account but Slashdot doesn't allow it.

Re:Scary is right... by Billy69 · 2004-11-26 03:51 · Score: 1

Nope, must be a different NHS, what with the British one not giving any form of injection/sedation to donors, let alone novocaine.

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#include "disclaimer.h"
Re:Scary is right... by hoofie · 2004-11-26 04:17 · Score: 1

If this is the same NHS that wastes money on novacaine 'shots' for people donating blood

I've given blood quite a few times over the years and I've NEVER heard of this, neither has my wife who is a experienced Nurse. Sometimes I think they put some anasthetic gel on the skin to eliminate some of the pain but that certainly isn't a shot.

p.s. 'shot' is an American phrase for an injection - in the UK I thought everyone called it a 'jab' or a injection.
Re:Scary is right... by Gothmolly · 2004-11-26 04:55 · Score: 1

Edinburgh, Scotland, 1995.

They came around with a tray full of syringes loaded with novacaine, to numb the area before they put the big blood-drawing needle in.
PS. I am an American, so I use the word 'shot'

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I want to delete my account but Slashdot doesn't allow it.
Re:Scary is right... by Fweeky · 2004-11-26 04:55 · Score: 1

"If this is the same NHS that wastes money on novacaine shots for people donating blood"

No. They do waste it on tea and biscuits though; those moneywasting scum.
Re:Scary is right... by Anonymous Coward · 2004-11-26 07:28 · Score: 0

Are you sure it was novocaine, or was it "novocaine"?

I've never experienced this either and I think you were hallucinating from sheer terror.

The problem with doctors... by siskbc · 2004-11-26 03:01 · Score: 5, Insightful

...is that he self-medicated for a long time. If he had gone to a doctor right from the start, he'd be probably fine by now. Seriously.

No, the problem is that he went to a doctor at the start, who told him nothing was wrong. He repeated that about 10 times. In the meantime, he tried to find out what was wrong with him because 1) he has more time than the GPs and crappy specialists he saw, 2) he cares more than them about his health, and 3) most doctors don't think creatively because they aren't trained to.

As someone who has had a hard-to-diagnose health problem, Patrick's course of action is the only one that works. You have to do your own research, and pester the hell out of doctors to get them to actually try to diagnose you. Otherwise, they either tell you nothing's wrong, or they refer you to someone else who repeats the whole process and refers you again.

Patrick didn't self medicate. He's just trying to get these damned doctors to take his condition seriously.

--

-Looking for a job as a materials chemist or multivariat

Re:The problem with doctors... by kfg · 2004-11-26 03:11 · Score: 1

You have to do your own research, and pester the hell out of doctors to get them to actually try to diagnose you.

"Why does it hurt when I pee?"--The Late, Great Frank Zappa

KFG
Re:The problem with doctors... by siskbc · 2004-11-26 03:41 · Score: 1

"Why does it hurt when I pee?"--The Late, Great Frank Zappa
I'm going with a UTI, although with Frank, we can't rule out syphilis either.

--
-Looking for a job as a materials chemist or multivariat

Re:Hurry up and die faggot by Anonymous Coward · 2004-11-26 03:04 · Score: 1, Funny

This is God writing. The above poster and I have a session planned (might not be on his schedule yet) where we'll be dealing with his ... problem. If we can't resolve it, there's another department a few floors down that will welcome him.

Re:The problem with Patrick... by Anonymous Coward · 2004-11-26 03:07 · Score: 0

Estupido..

Actually, more like pendejo.

Damn fzer0, read the original post, then read the current post, and then post your own opinion, don't be a pendejo by just mouthing off your own uninformed drivel.

-gus

Yup by mindaktiviti · 2004-11-26 03:07 · Score: 1

It's just like that movie Requiem for a Dream, where the junky's mother goes to the doctor and he doesn't even look at her and how sick she looks, he just keeps prescribing more and more medication.

I once went to my family doctor over a mild sickness (I think it was exam week or something) and she just told me to drink lots of water and get rest. She also gave me a prescription (my throat was sore) but I never did end up getting it. I felt fine a few days later.

Doctors just seem like highly advancded retail sales clerks, only their customers are sick, and their products are drugs.

Re:Yup by Anonymous Coward · 2004-11-26 04:50 · Score: 0

I once went to my family doctor over a mild sickness (I think it was exam week or something) and she just told me to drink lots of water and get rest. She also gave me a prescription (my throat was sore) but I never did end up getting it. I felt fine a few days later.

Sounds like you have a good doctor, actually. This is the advice I usually get from my mother, who is a doctor with a great track record. I know she isn't just trying to get me out of the office, since we're family and all.

In your case, you probably had a minor infection, and the doctor figured your immune system would take care of it in a couple of days. The perscription was probably just a painkiller or anti-inflammatory for your throat, to make it more comfortable (not to treat the illness.) Sounds like she was right, because you were better in a couple of days. What's the problem?

I kind of agree with the sentiment of the thread, though. Last time I went to the doctor I told him what I had, but it wasn't presenting well (first day) so he told me it was something else and sent me home. I suppose I didn't get my money's worth out of that visit, but what do you expect for $15?
Re:Yup by op00to · 2004-11-26 17:44 · Score: 1

Uh, that seemed to be the correct course of action to me. You know, the human body has this miraculous thing called the immune system. It has these special cells that have been killing germs for longer than doctors have been around. What did you want her to do? Wave her hands over you, utter a few magic words, and declare you 'healed'? You're sick. Get rest, drink fluids, and more likely than not you'll get better. You said you had a mild sickness, grow up. People get sick, it sucks. Be miserable and get some cute girl/guy to take care of you.

Re:Jeez... by Nurseman · 2004-11-26 03:07 · Score: 3, Insightful

He's been to several docs and none have found anything significant, but he's obviously in a bad condition.

I think the general consensus among medical professionals on the last go round, is he needs a SPECIALIST, not an internest, not an ER doctor. He needs to go to someone with a plan, an Infectious Disease fellow who deals waith these kinds of illnesses. He apparently is near some world class medical institutions, I am not sure why he is not utilizing them.

--
Save a Life. Donate Blood. Please.

Re:Don't bash me for being insensitive, but by Anonymous Coward · 2004-11-26 03:07 · Score: 0

yes, but if he doesn't get better, I may have to install Microsoft Windows. /shudder.

To Patrick: by SubDude · 2004-11-26 03:08 · Score: 1

Just so you know, the Linux/Slackware community are sending their collective best most positive thoughts your way.

I have refrained from emailing a 'Get Well' message in case your mbox is getting overwhelmed.

Please get better my friend, we really need you.

Brian

Re:To Patrick: by Anonymous Coward · 2004-11-26 07:06 · Score: 0

Alan Hicks here.

I'm posting anonymously because I modded Pat up on this thread. I want to personally thank you for the insight you've displayed in _not_ e-mailing Pat. I have done the same thing for the same reasons. There's likely no end to the "Best Wishes" e-mails he's getting. Speaking from experience one tends to read those things and move along once you've read the 50th one of 5 thousand.

Re:Don't bash me for being insensitive, but by rjw57 · 2004-11-26 03:08 · Score: 1

If I were Death, and I had to choose between him and a child with leukemia, guess which one I'd pick?

The child? Less effort has been spent in sustaining the life so far. Seriously, why would one be 'picked' over another?

--
Rich

Sadly... by sethadam1 · 2004-11-26 03:09 · Score: 1

Sadly, I think you're right. It just doesn't seem possible that this many doctors could blow him off without introducing the possiblity of an expensive lawsuit. SOMEONE somewhere would have referred him to someplace where they do expensive tests with shiny machines.

Right?

Re:Sadly... by Asic+Eng · 2004-11-26 03:33 · Score: 1

Well it seems the doctors are diagnosing him as having heart problems. They just don't agree with his observation that this is a new problem. I don't know what the right course of action is, in such a case - he suddenly felt pain, the doctors confirm it's a physiological cause, so he is not imagining things. Obviously he wants to feel better again. Asking around whether anyone can recommend a good doctor seems a reasonable thing to do.
Anyway, best wishes to him, some 10 years ago I greatly benefited from his work. I'm grateful.
Re:Sadly... by DMadCat · 2004-11-26 03:55 · Score: 1

It seems to me that an expensive lawsuit is exactly what these doctors are trying to avoid. Rather than try to help and misdiagnose him they'd rather not try to diagnose him at all until what he has becomes completely apparent.

My wife's father smoked for 30+ years, lived in L.A., and was a smog technician for 7 years when he started pissing and coughing up blood. He went to his doctor who quickly prescribed some antibiotics. Despite his getting weaker and his symptoms progressing the doctor did little to nothing more to help him.

It was a year later, when he was finally convinced to consult another doctor, that he was diagnosed with a cancerous tumor the size of a grapefruit on both of his lungs. He lasted about 7 months.
Re:Sadly... by swv3752 · 2004-11-26 07:30 · Score: 1

Mitral Valve prolapse is one of those things that can either be a pre existing genetic condition or cause by an infection. Guess which one it is if it shows up after you are twenty years old?

Patrick has some wierd bacterial infection and is right to be panicking.

--
Just a Tuna in the Sea of Life

The man is still working on updates??? by hellfire · 2004-11-26 03:10 · Score: 4, Funny

The guy has a nasty bacterial infection and is still trying to perform Slackware updates?

I get the flu and I can barely stand to surf the web or chat on IRC! Hopefully, he will live into old age and share this story with his grandkids...

"When I was your age, I was compiling code by hand, with a lung infection, uphill, in the snow! You linux programmers have it easy these days!"

Good luck man, I'm pulling for you.

--

"All great wisdom is contained in .signature files"

Re:The man is still working on updates??? by Anonymous Coward · 2004-11-26 04:07 · Score: 0

Nah -- even if he survives his stupidity, Linux won't be around when he's that old.

And he'll never have sex anyway, so how would he have grandkids? Maybe he and his life partner could move to Vermont and adopt.
Re:The man is still working on updates??? by happyemoticon · 2004-11-26 05:25 · Score: 1

He is, I'm looking at my swaret listing of slackware-current right now.

My wishes go out to Patrick.
Re:The man is still working on updates??? by Anonymous Coward · 2004-11-26 07:57 · Score: 0

Hell, I was playing Deus Ex like mad when I had the flu a month ago, and it was still tons of fun. I think I had about 30 water bottles on my desk and they started covering the monitor.
Re:The man is still working on updates??? by Idarubicin · 2004-11-26 10:46 · Score: 1

The guy has a nasty bacterial infection and is still trying to perform Slackware updates?
It's all right as long as he doesn't have a virus.

--
~Idarubicin

Re:The problem with Patrick... by Anonymous Coward · 2004-11-26 03:10 · Score: 0

you dick. save your insight for another discussion.

UK hospitals are not free for americans by Viol8 · 2004-11-26 03:12 · Score: 1

You have to have insurance or a credit card.

Re:Damn you, Microsoft! by _w00d_ · 2004-11-26 03:13 · Score: 1

Well, laughing DOES boost the immune system.

Re:heart defects by Anonymous Coward · 2004-11-26 03:13 · Score: 0

Actually, defects in children can be normal and will often close as you grow older.

I was that way, you could hear a lub-swoosh-dub sound on listening to my heart when I was little. Now it's quite normal, though I still ask my doctors about it from time to time.

Wonder if that's the same kind of thing only it got missed over the years, and hers never closed up.

He needs a teaching hospital by plazman30 · 2004-11-26 03:15 · Score: 1

What he needs to do is find an infectious disease specialist at a GOOD teaching hospital such as John Hopkins in Baltimore, where some doctor will see the ability to get a good paper published out of his condition. Then he will probably get some serisouly good care because they want to see their name in print.

He needs to let them know that no one can find what is wrong with him and list the which physicians he has seen.

Finding a good doctor is hard. Find a good doctor that listens is even harder...

Re:He needs a teaching hospital by Anonymous Coward · 2004-11-26 04:23 · Score: 0

I believe that he lives in Minnesota. Lets see. Are there any close by Teaching Hospitals? That might just be considered the best in the nation?

Make mine with MAYO.
Re:He needs a teaching hospital by bluGill · 2004-11-26 08:36 · Score: 1

You are overlooking a number of other great medical institutions in Minnesota. As one person I know says "Mayo is the world's best collection of doctors under one roof (though I think the clinic covers more than one building), but if you are willing to work with several different orginizations, the Twin Cities has better medical care overall." They were willing to head down to Mayo, it is at most 3 hours drive from the Twin Cities.
Re:He needs a teaching hospital by Anonymous Coward · 2004-11-27 23:26 · Score: 0

Its Johns Hopkins... with an "s"

FOR THE LAST TIME! HE DID NOT SELF-MEDICATED! by dark-br · 2004-11-26 03:17 · Score: 3, Informative

As you can read here in his last post on /.

Re:FOR THE LAST TIME! HE DID NOT SELF-MEDICATED! by Anonymous Coward · 2004-11-26 03:58 · Score: 0

And also for the last time: Clinton is not a cokehead, and Bush is not a cokehead, and Bush did not steal Florida, and Bush did not steal Ohio, and Clinton did not kill Vince Foster, and Clinton did not rape Juanita Broaderrick, and Bush did not do 9/11, and Bush did not invade Iraq for the oil, and Betamax was not better than VHS, and Bill Gates did not say that 640K is enough for anybody.

People prefer an entertaining story to facts. Sorry.
Re:FOR THE LAST TIME! HE DID NOT SELF-MEDICATED! by FurryFeet · 2004-11-26 05:39 · Score: 3, Funny

As you can read here in his last post on /.

s/last/latest

Otherwise, it's creepy.
Re:FOR THE LAST TIME! HE DID NOT SELF-MEDICATED! by Anonymous Coward · 2004-11-26 05:47 · Score: 0

No, but he is self-diagnosing and trying to shop around on the internet for a doctor that agrees with him 100%. It's going to get him killed.

Someone needs to yank away all his computer and internet access and force him to stick with a doctor instead of doing this ridiculous doctor-hopping. This act is seriously going to kill him if he keeps it up.

"As for those who say I should stop trying to diagnose myself: I am trying to get doctors to diagnose this ongoing problem."

That's because you never hang around long enough at a single doctor! Stop playing doctor!
Re:FOR THE LAST TIME! HE DID NOT SELF-MEDICATED! by Anonymous Coward · 2004-11-26 06:07 · Score: 0

Oh an addendum to that last AC post:

"My parents asked me what I wanted for my birthday and I told them some more Cipro. They found someone who was able to help me out with a 60 day supply (no small task as this was right after the infamous Anthrax mailings when all the newspapers were running articles about Cipro and people were trying to horde it)."

Cipro is rarely used past two weeks at the most. Getting 60 days' worth as a "birthday present" is ludicrous and can only be called self-medication, regardless of what he claims otherwise.

Here's another gem:

"I'd think it would be only prudent to treat this as complicated infective endocarditis. I've been to another different ER with more crushing chest pains since then and have begged for a needle biopsy to check the plural fluid for empyema, but nobody will do this diagnostic either."

He's also trying to order his own invasive testing! He's playing doctor and playing with his life! Someone needs to intervene, and fast
Re:FOR THE LAST TIME! HE DID NOT SELF-MEDICATED! by winwar · 2004-11-26 14:18 · Score: 1

Time to feed the troll :)

"Cipro is rarely used past two weeks at the most."

We have different definitions of rarely or you are ignorant. For some types of infections, 4 weeks or LONGER are common.

"He's also trying to order his own invasive testing!"

Umm, so what? If you didn't know this, doctors are NOT in charge of your treatment. The PATIENTS determine treatment. Hell, I have asked for invasive treatments before for non life threatening medical conditions. Sure a doctor can say no. But they can't do anything without your consent. Doctors are essentially consultants.

"Someone needs to intervene, and fast"

I agree, I think someone needs to apply a clue-by-four to your head. Repeatedly. Feel free to self-administer the treatment :)

Re:The problem with Patrick... by Anonymous Coward · 2004-11-26 03:20 · Score: 0

gimmie a break you think its actually hard to get prescription meds w/o a prescription?

PubMed by jarich · 2004-11-26 03:20 · Score: 4, Interesting

Use PubMed as your medical information source. It's where the scientists and docs publish their research and is considering a "real" datasource (as opposed to citing "the internet". Your doctors will know the name Pubmed when you mention it.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi

My daughter has a heart condition and we found the doctors weren't interested in really discussing anything until we started using the "right" terminology. The terminology I picked up after reading a number of PubMed publications about my daugher's condition.

I highly suggest that anyone researching any condition (but especially something exotic like Patrick) hit PubMed. Make it your source you cite when talking to your docs. Make it your primary source of information. All the other websites you read are just summing up the papers published here.

--
Agile Artisans

A travel to Europe any one? by Anonymous Coward · 2004-11-26 03:22 · Score: 0

Doctors don't do unusual very well.
Needs to get lucky with right doctor.
Get a real doctor.
I don't know how are USA's doctors, but Europe's doctors are very good (for free).
A travel to Europe any one?

Microsoft Doctors by Anonymous Coward · 2004-11-26 03:22 · Score: 0

I've noticed that in the last few years (maybe it's just my perspective, I don't know) doctors seem less and less likely to actually listen to their patients. I have recurring tonsilitis that I get at least once a year and usually more.

The real reason why they won't treat chronic, or recurring acute tonsilitis with a treatment or surgery that'll fix it for good is because they know it won't kill you (right away) but that you'll keep coming back to them and giving them money again and again and again and again. Why on earth would they want to stop a recurring revenue stream when they can foster an environment and promote a set of circumstances to keep you prisoner to the repetitive cycle? Just like a certain software vendor we all know.

Re:Microsoft Doctors by Anonymous Coward · 2004-11-26 03:59 · Score: 0

Because doctors aren't assholes, dumbshit. For that matter, neither are lawyers, politicians, nor Joe Schmo at Microsoft.

In fact, most people are not assholes if you take a moment to know them...

Except you apparently. You're definitely a dick.
Re:Microsoft Doctors by Anonymous Coward · 2004-11-26 05:02 · Score: 0

You forgot who's paying: the insurance companies. They wouldn't let that happen.

If you need a kidney transplant, your insurance company will do everything they can to help you. (If you don't get a new kidney, they have to pay for dialisys for a long time. Lots of money.)

If you need a liver transplant, your insurance company won't pay for any part of it. (If you don't get a new liver, you just die. That's cheap.)
Re:Microsoft Doctors by ray-auch · 2004-11-26 05:44 · Score: 1

These days they don't tend to treat chronic / recurring _anything_ with invasive surgery involving GA (and I think tonsilectomy is usually only done under GA).

The reason is the death rates from surgery/GA. Not that they have got worse or anything - but our tolerance of deaths from "routine" surgery has reduced, and litigation has increased.

When I was a kid, UK dentists did GAs all the time - I had one to remove several teeth, because I preferred the idea to local. Now I know more I'd not do the same again, but anyway I wouldn't be able to, because now UK dentists don't do GAs (only hospitals). It was banned. Not because people started dying - they always died - but because we started to think that those deaths shouldn't be happening.

Result - you have to have local, (arguably) a much less pleasant experience, but without the risk of it killing you. Same goes for recurring tonsilitis I guess.

Bottom line is that there is a finite, not-insignificant, and unavoidable risk of dying just from the GA every time you have one. The only way to avoid that risk is: don't have one. The medical profession has basically woken up to that and now tries to avoid GAs a lot more than it used to.

Getting Well by Anonymous Coward · 2004-11-26 03:23 · Score: 0

If nothing the doctors say will work, maybe he should try seeking alternative health advice that is not from the allopathic mainstream.

Check the forums archives on this site for some advice.

http://www.askwaltstollmd.com/archives.html

Eric S Raymond by Psionicist · 2004-11-26 03:23 · Score: 0

I went to the ER immediately.

Sure, Eric S Raymond is a good hacker, but wouldn't it be wiser to go to a hospital?

Re:Eric S Raymond by Anonymous Coward · 2004-11-26 04:42 · Score: 0

I don't know about you, but in my area, the ER is at the hospital.

I am a Slackware 10.0 user by essreenim · 2004-11-26 03:24 · Score: 1, Interesting

Patrick if you're listening.
I use Slackware for everything - it has the hallmarks of an OS that is for humans (people) as opposed to drones. It has that human touch.
Thats a legacy you can be proud off if all on its own. Just the simple fact that every time I open up a terminal, there is a quirky quote of some kind which can be humerous to outrageous to serious but always interesting. Get well soon..

Re:Jeez... by Anonymous Coward · 2004-11-26 03:24 · Score: 0

At least he got to see a doctor. I'm Canadian. I don't have doctor, can't find one who will accept new patients, and haven't seen one in about 6 years. I live in the North and there isn't even a walk in clinic around here. I'm pretty much fucked but at least I get to send 50% of my income to the government for "free" healthcare! HOORAY CANADA!

Dude, stop changing doctors! by the_skywise · 2004-11-26 03:25 · Score: 5, Interesting

I've been in your situation before with a stomach problem. You're breaking the system!

Doctor's diagnose by a flow chart the same way programmers debug a program. Given a symptom x and y, localize where the problem could be and its causes and try a solution. But unlike programmers, they don't try various solutions, rebuild and retest... Solutions in medical practice take time or can't happen at all at which point the problem has to be mediated to get on with the quality of life(ie hacked).

The problem is that everytime you switch to a new doctor two things are happening. First, the new doctor is going to start from the top of the flowchart and work his way down to the first matching diagnosis and treat that. Even if you say that was checked and the problem is different, you're the pleeb, he's the doctor and unless he gets scientific proof otherwise, his opinion is the right one. Basically, unless you have every medical test result you have, on official paper, your opinion means squat. Secondly, you're retaining all this knowledge and experience so when you present your case to the new doctor you're coming off as: "I went to this doctor with chest pains, but he didn't see anything wrong and I have this other ache which I think is related, so I went to this other doctor who says the other ache is this unrelated problem, but meanwhile I've gained a third symptom of popping in my chest so I went to the emergency room but they didn't think anything of it, so I went to the internet and printed out these charts and I think I have a rare and exotic problem, what do you think?"
Well the new Doctor is now going to think "hypochondriac" and not take your opinion very seriously becaue you've disregarded other medical opinions.

Basically you've got to find ONE doctor that you trust, present your symptoms and then work with that doctor through the multitude of tests to come to a conclusion. A good doctor is a> smart, b> will listen to your case history and c> (and most importantly) will interact with you and answer your questions to alleviate your fears.

Two anecdotes here: Both Michael Eisner and David Letterman had family histories of father's dying early from heart attacks. Both men's doctors ran the usual EKG's and stress tests and found no heart troubles. Both men continued to push for better testing and finally their doctors relented and did an dye test on the heart and found major clogging in the arteries with NO other symptoms present.

On the flip side, a relative of mine had chest pains, stomach pains and pains on his upper left abdomen. After several heart tests, his doctor diagnosed acid-reflux and proscribed one of the common pills for it. After about a month, the pain was less but he still had it. So he went back to the same doctor who tested his heart again, no problem. But my uncle was sure that something else was up, so he went through a chest x-ray, clear. So then they ran some blood tests, clear. So then they ran a lower GI test by ramming a camera up his butt, clear. Gall bladder, clear. Finally, they dropped a camera down his stomach...and found something. Acid Reflux damage. My relative had stopped taking the medication because he thought it wasn't doing anything. So the doctor put him back on it and made him stay on it. Two months later, the pain had cleared.

What you're feeling is real to you. I sympathize with what you're going through and urge you to keep up the fight. But you've got to work WITH the system.

Re:Dude, stop changing doctors! by Anonymous Coward · 2004-11-26 03:34 · Score: 0

Oh for some Mod points - insightfully done sir.
Re:Dude, stop changing doctors! by cmason · 2004-11-26 04:28 · Score: 2

ONE doctor that you trust,
This is the key. As I said earlier, there's a huge disparity between talented and mediocre doctors, just as there is in programmers. And as others have pointed out, so many doctors these days just follow the flow chart without really caring or even listening. They hone in on the most likely cause without even considering other possibilities.
Good doctors listen, they evaluate all the symptoms, they don't dismiss anything. Hell, a key part of my cancer diagnosis was a symptom I didn't think was related at all (itchiness), a belief that earlier doctors had reinforced. Indeed, I got unlucky in that I moved around a bunch and ended up moving from doctor to doctor.
I finally found a doctor who said, "What else?" ABut by that point, it was pretty clear that something was really wrong with me. However, there's nothing like having someone finally actually listen to you, ask probing questions, and act. The single biggest revelation out of my cancer experience was that I knew something was seriously wrong with me before the doctors did.
I agree with the_skywise's recommendation that you stick to a single doctor for a while, but make sure that single doctor is a good one. If, after giving her a couple chances, your doctor can't explain your symptoms to your satisfaction, find another. It can make all the difference in the world.
-c

--
"If you are an idealist it doesn't matter what you do or what goes on around you, because it isn't real anyway."-R.P.W.
Re:Dude, stop changing doctors! by Anonymous Coward · 2004-11-26 05:08 · Score: 0

All the symptoms you mention, i.e. chest pains, stomach pains and pains on his upper left abdomen...chest x-ray, clear...blood tests, clear...[a]cid [r]eflux damage fit very well into the larger picture of the often misunderstood, and unrecognized, coeliac disease. Your uncle should go through the appropriate tests for transglutaminase IgG and anti-gliadin IgG antibodies and/or try a gluten-free diet. From what you tell about his story, I would presume he didn't do so up to now and no doctor even came up with the idea. That's why it takes between 7 and 14 years on average to get the right diagnosis... http://collection.nlc-bnc.ca/100/201/300/cdn_medic al_association/cmaj/vol-157/issue-5/0547.htm (And the already-dead probably aren't counted at all.)
Re:Dude, stop changing doctors! by Anonymous Coward · 2004-11-26 20:43 · Score: 0

My relative had stopped taking the medication because he thought it wasn't doing anything.
I hope you promptly beat him into a bloody pulp. I'm not fucking kidding. The biggest single cause for problems in recovering from diseases is stupid patients not following the instructions. I'm not saying a prescription could be wrong, but if you think it doesn't do anything or if it has adverse side effects, CHECK WITH YOUR DOCTOR FIRST. I can't stress this enough.

heart problem - intercostal neuralgia ? by SergeyKurdakov · 2004-11-26 03:25 · Score: 1

I just know from personal experience that intercostal neuralgia is awfull pain which could be taken as heart problem - still nothing special with heart - would anyonyone suggest him to read on intercostal neuralgia ?

another thing - actually it is quite common to have 'viral infection feelings' while having no desease - just that are described ( including weakness). from research doctors ( Moscow institute of immunology) I know that sometimes immunomodulatory drug make a big difference. so again - will someone suggest him just to consult on the issue. On average - it is not uncommon that only hightly profeccional doctors could recognise actual problem. Average docs would just say 'guy you are OK' while guy could suffer quite a lot.... so I think what he needs - a really good doctor. prefereably who deals with intercostal neuralgia and immunology problems... sorry I just would not dare to contact him personally - but maybe this is a way to help...

Re:Try this by Anonymous Coward · 2004-11-26 03:29 · Score: 0

You are a moron if you think these work. The claims made by these devices are so outragous that only the desperate and the foolish believe them. If they really worked why don't doctors use them. They get paid to make you well so why wouldn't they use them.

Re:Hypochondria by Anonymous Coward · 2004-11-26 03:29 · Score: 1, Insightful

I wouldn't say hypochondria per se because something is obviously wrong with him.

However, doing self-diagnosis is a bad idea. Panic can set in and cause things to get worse: phantom symptoms, lowered immune system due to the stress, etc.

If he doesn't like or agree with a doctor, he should go to another one. I had to do that because my current doc at the time couldn't figure out what was wrong with me (burning from the waist down for 8 painful months!), nor a neurologist she sent me to.

I finally went to a doctor who happened to be an osteopath, and they look at things slightly differently than MD's do. He figured out it was a back injury and I was making it worse by stressing over it because I was looking up all kinds of weird nerve disorders on the 'net. It turns out my back went out and some nerves were being compressed just enough to cause the pain but not show up in the neuro's tests. The stress caused everything to tighten up more, and it was a vicious cycle. 6 months of physical therapy, and I was almost back to normal.

Anyhow, the point is that doctors can get confused and miss things. But looking online won't help it - it just makes you stress more and you start imagining things or everything becomes a symptom.

Keep going to docs and force them to figure it out. ER docs are also good at figuring stuff out, especially the weird stuff. So if you feel sick, go to the ER.

Keep off the self-diagnosis and med web sites.

I was getting freaked out too...READ THIS by MajorDick · 2004-11-26 03:31 · Score: 2, Insightful

Seriously, I am on Cipro , second time for a bout of prostatitis myself, I waqs experiencing night sweats, heart pains and most disturbingly severe liver pain, after a ton of tests everything was Ok except I was still fevered and had the liver pain, all kinds of unexplainable and very serious seeming symptoms,

It turned out that My GALL Bladder is pretty much DOA , The coincidental timing with my prostatits was just bad luck.

I also have Reiter's Syndrome which can cause ALL Kinds of seemingly unrelated symptoms (INCLUDING HEART) AND IT generally goes hand in hand with prostatits in younger (under 40) men,

Mine was caused from a very serious bout as in nearly dead, case of Campylobacter.

Now I have just regined myself to taking lots of NSAIDS, for the arthritis part (but as many broken bones as I ve had its hard to tell if its from those or this) and dealin with a bout of the big P every other year or so. he heart issues are serious but treatable.

Re:I was getting freaked out too...READ THIS by Anonymous Coward · 2004-11-26 04:26 · Score: 0

Man that sounds horrible, I'm sorry you've had to endure that hell.
Re:I was getting freaked out too...READ THIS by Anonymous Coward · 2004-11-26 05:48 · Score: 0

You could check out c[o]eliac disease, too. Sometimes it comes with...

night sweats, heart pains and most disturbingly severe liver pain...all kinds of unexplainable and very serious seeming symptoms.

Just try Google.

Nutrients and Antibiotics... by jar240 · 2004-11-26 03:32 · Score: 2, Informative

The bottom line for any illness is: your body need nutrients, not antibiotics. My advice for him is: Get yourself a Champion Juicer off eBay for $120. Then go buy: - 3 pounds of fresh ORGANIC ginger root - 20 pounds of this year's crop ORGANIC carrots - 2 pounds of ORGANIC beets (with the tops still on) - 10 pounds of ORGANIC Russet/Mac apples Use any of the above items (except ginger, see below) to make three 12 oz glasses of juice every day ... and drink them! Mix and match as you please. Make sure to use at least 3 oz of ginger for EACH glass of juice. Don't juice the beet tops, but rather have them for dinner. These ingredients should last you about 4 days. You'll feel better than you do now, and not only will you be fighting whatever's ailing you, this will be the beginning of resotring your body to its proper functioning state. During this time, don't eat any: - dairy products - refined sugar - products of any kind that contain white flour - heated oils of any kind ------ Sure, this stuff isn't covered by any health insurance and will cost you some money, but it will do wonders for you if you stick with it. Why juice? Because without most of the fiber, your body will assimilate the nutrients far more quickly than eatier the solid foods. Why organic? Everything we eat is technically organic in a chemical sense (hydrocarbons), but organic fruits and vegetables don't have any pesticides sprayed on them, and are not genetically modified (knowingly). The job of filtering toxins by your liver and kidneys takes energy away from you, and ehen you're sick, your body needs all the energy it cdan get to increase your body's potential to fight. Why make it myself fresh? Juices in the store have all been pasteurized and therefore processed in some way. The pasteurization process (cooking, basically) kills off potentially harmful bacteria, which can be good, but it also kills the enzymes. Enzymes are needed to properly digest food and assimilate nutrients. The body can manufacture most enzymes needed to properly digest food, but this again requires quite a bit of enrgy on your body's part. Jucing as a remedy and diet is akin to performing Spyware cleaning, aleminiating unneeded background processes, reclaiming precious clock cycles from your CPU for doing the things you want to do without bogging down. Antibiotics destroy your immune system (I've been on them enough as a youngster to know), thus reducing your body's capacity to fight anything off. Although you should avoid them as much as possible due to their immuno-damaging effects, antibitotics can be helpful, but they need the help of the potential of your body. Although you may be weak from an invader such as a virus, your body's potential to help comes into strong play. Drinking these juices will help increase your body' potential. I have nothing to gain by sharing this experience and advice with you, while your doctor has several. Trust nature, feed your body food not garbage, and get at least 15 minutes of direct sunlight on any part of your body, every day. Then go back and finish working on that Slackfix you gotta get done. Feel free to contact me if you'd like more information. chris DISCLAIMER: USE THIS ADVICE AT YOUR OWN RISK. YOUR MILEAGE MAY VARY.

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"You can drive out Nature with a pitchfork, but It always comes roaring back again." - Tom Waits

Re:Nutrients and Antibiotics... by Anonymous Coward · 2004-11-26 03:41 · Score: 0

That's the only problem with juicing:

35 lbs. of veggies and fruits for 4 days of juice. You need a semi to keep on this regimen, and a bankroll to back it up.

I have a juicer, but I've used it like twice in a year because of the sheer volume of stuff needed. So it's become more of a "treat" thing for me.

Juicing makes sense, though. You need all those vitamins and things, and cooking it destroys a lot. Best to go fresh if you are going to do it.

Alternatively, I personally like Spicy Hot V8 ;-)
Re:Nutrients and Antibiotics... by Anonymous Coward · 2004-11-26 08:27 · Score: 0

is there anything proven that ORGANIC fruit is any better for you than non organic?

any actual evidence?
Re:Nutrients and Antibiotics... by jar240 · 2004-11-30 08:34 · Score: 1

I haven't seen any hard evidence that meat and produce certified organic by any North American certification body is any better for us than non-certified produce. I'm not trying to win any arguments or "convert" people in any way with my comments. I'm interested in sharing that which I know to be true, simply because 1) I know it to be true, and 2) this knowledge can help others. I'm not fanatical about any of the things I know, simply because I know them to be true. People aren't fanatical about the sun rising and setting, because they know this condition to be true. People are, however, fanatical about ideas and concepts that they're desperately clinging to because they are on the verge of either letting go or being flung off. Chris

--
"You can drive out Nature with a pitchfork, but It always comes roaring back again." - Tom Waits

Frustrating by Anonymous Coward · 2004-11-26 03:33 · Score: 0

It's frustrating to read that doctors keep doing little more than checking out his current symptoms and not finding much, then telling him to go home.. His posts describing the problem are well written and seem to do a good job of explaining the problems he's had. Maybe if the doctors read that, they would get a better idea of the bigger picture of what has been going on.

Maybe he should pretend he can't speak and bring a printout of his articles next time he goes to the emergency room...

What's that coach? by Anonymous Coward · 2004-11-26 03:33 · Score: 0

Take a salt tablet and walk it off.

Health by preapocalyptic · 2004-11-26 03:34 · Score: 0

Try Chiropractic...seriously.

Re:Health by Anonymous Coward · 2004-11-26 03:51 · Score: 0

Great. Another kook. What is it with you guys and your alternative treatments that do nothing?
Re:Health by /dev/trash · 2004-11-26 03:59 · Score: 1

Oh yeah that'll work. My grandfather tried that for back pain he had. Turns out it was cancer. Didn't stop the quack from doing two more sessions before telling him.
Re:Health by Anonymous Coward · 2004-11-26 05:19 · Score: 0

I know I former fireman who can't feel anything from his midsection down because of a chiropractor. Seriously. Emergency back surgery isn't fun.

If you have joint problems, maybe. If you have infectious disease, WTF?
Re:Health by preapocalyptic · 2004-11-27 03:14 · Score: 0

Chiropractors are like mechanics, there are good one's and bad ones.
Re:Health by /dev/trash · 2004-11-27 04:46 · Score: 1

Yeah well, I can crack my own back.
Re:Health by preapocalyptic · 2004-11-27 06:29 · Score: 0

Just trying to help the cause, not you.
Re:Health by /dev/trash · 2004-11-27 16:02 · Score: 1

Diseases are caused by germs, not your spine being misligned.
Re:Health by preapocalyptic · 2004-11-30 04:44 · Score: 0

Disease is caused by "Germs" and Spinal misalingment. The body operates like a city. Each organ system has a specific function that keeps the city running smoothly. The main thoroughfare of communication from the local government to the rest of the city is the spinal cord. In a city that has poor communication with it's populace, the ignored portion of the population stops listening to the directives of the city government. Sometimes this benefits the body (vomiting as a reaction against a harmful food intake directive), other times when the body ignores directives from the mind it has a harmful effect on the entire organization. One of these cases is bacterial/viral infection. There are always millions of potentially harmful organisms present in our body. The agenda of these organisms is to find a hospitable environment in which to live and propagate. When the level of these organisms becomes hazardous to the health of their host body, the brain sends signals via the spinal cord to the different organ systems so these systems can coordinate an attack and flush the harmful organisms from the body. When the communication of these systems is impeded so is their ability to perform their functions. With a malfunctioning body, the propagation of these harmful organisms is left unchecked and they begin the process of preparing the body for it's return back to the earth. Read the thread by LittleStone and the replys if you need testimonials, or do some actual research instead of just talking out your ass.

Re:Try this by Captain+Morgan · 2004-11-26 03:35 · Score: 2, Insightful

The Rife machine? Are you nuts? Next you'll be telling him to rub stones and magnets over his body. If this Rife stuff actually worked there would be people all over using it cure people. Is it FDA approved or is that due to some conspiracy by the medical establishment holding it down?

No wonder he didn't reply to you.

Chris

Re:Don't bash me for being insensitive, but by hunnybunny · 2004-11-26 03:38 · Score: 1

>I thought the whole point of the F/OSS thing was
> that everyone had access to the code, thus making
> something like this less likely to affect anything

ok, here's an idea: what if slackeare linux wasn't the most important thing here?

this guy is ill; might die.

now concentrate *really* hard. ready?:

THIS IS NOTHING TO DO WITH SOFTWARE.

now relax.

Re:Don't bash me for being insensitive, but by BLAG-blast · 2004-11-26 03:38 · Score: 1

He's just the face of one of the many distros out there;

Correction: "He's just the face of the first of many distros out there".

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M0571y H@rml355.

Honey by Anonymous Coward · 2004-11-26 03:38 · Score: 0

Don't know how it compares to oregano oil, but honey is well-regarding for its healing properties.

Mouth wash is pretty damn effective too.

Re:Try this by AeiwiMaster · 2004-11-26 03:38 · Score: 1

Wrong, doctors and the drug companies get payed to treat you, to cure you
is bad for business.

Re:Don't bash me for being insensitive, but by Vellmont · 2004-11-26 03:39 · Score: 1

Right, because childrens lives are worth more than someone in their 20s or 30s. What a sad attitude to take.

--
AccountKiller

Dear God... by should_be_linear · 2004-11-26 03:39 · Score: 1, Funny

... I am sure you will manage something because Slack is on *your* critical machines as well. This is time to give something back to FOSS, isn't it?

--
839*929

Re:Try this by Anonymous Coward · 2004-11-26 03:39 · Score: 0

Aod you wonder why you didn't get a reply? You're a kook if you seriously believe in this shit.

Re:Hypochondria by Vellmont · 2004-11-26 03:42 · Score: 2, Interesting

Possibly, either that or it has the words "poor national healthcare" written all over it. It sounds like there's real evidence that SOMETHING is wrong with him. Why is someone who's concerned about their own health when the doctors around them aren't immediately labled a hypochondriac?

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AccountKiller

Re:Getting Well (Pericarditis?) by Anonymous Coward · 2004-11-26 03:42 · Score: 0

Please mod this up!

He should check for maybe some immune system weaknesses that allow the bacteria to embed in his lungs.

Here is something about Pericarditis.
http://www.askwaltstollmd.com/archives/mcs/298108. html

Quoted from Dr Stoll

Hi, Jason.

My younger brother had exactly the same thing, 20 years ago, and went through the exact same process with thei docs testing everything they could think of and having no idea what was going on.

He finally asked me, his crazy older brother who was just learning about alternative medicine, what I thought. I reviewed his extensive medical history about this problem and suggested he see a clinical ecologist in consultation. It turned out that his chronic and recurring pericarditis was due to environmental chemical exposure.

He is a "modern" chemical farmer and the straw that broke the camel's back was the regular lawn treatment of professional chemical lawn treatments that were being done to his home.

He stopped the lawn treatments and was more careful about the exposure in his business and he has not had a recurrence in more than 15 years.

Just a thought. You will need copies of ALL your records in your hand when you see the clinical ecologist in consultation. See the MCS (multiple chemical sensitivity) archives for how to find a good one close to you.

Let us know what you learn and how you do.

Walt

Tularemia by GizmoRevenj · 2004-11-26 03:45 · Score: 1

After reading his blog, there is indication that he may have contracted Tularemia.

It is a disease contracted while skinning dead animals, yea, sounds bizzarre... but, you never know.

Is there a way I can email Pat about this?

Re:Tularemia by Anonymous Coward · 2004-11-26 03:55 · Score: 0

Tularemia:

Tularemia, in aerosol form, is considered a possible bioterrorist agent. Persons who inhale an infectious aerosol would likely experience severe respiratory illness. Any suspected cases of tularemia inhalation should be immediately reported to local and state health departments.

Hmm. I wonder if he was standing under any chemtrails?

Forget The Mayo, he needs to call up Art Bell.
Re:Tularemia by op00to · 2004-11-26 18:18 · Score: 1

What are your medical credentials? I didn't happen to catch your med school diploma on the wall on my way in.

I read the original article. by i41Overlord · 2004-11-26 03:47 · Score: 1

He's been hopping around from place to place, ignoring problems, and doing everything half assed. How about you RTFA and see for yourself. I mean if this was a matter of a few months I'd understand, but this has been plaguing him for years and only recently did he begin to get some REAL help.

Re:The problem with Patrick... by SJasperson · 2004-11-26 03:51 · Score: 1

Want prescription antibiotics without a prescription? Go to pretty much any animal feed store in rural America and you'll find a fine selection of antibiotics for your cow, horse, or whatever. No prescription required. Gotta figure out the dose yourself, though, if you were (hypothetically) gonna give them to some other species.

--
Sigs? Sigs? We don't need no steenkin' sigs.

Yes, that's disgusting. by i41Overlord · 2004-11-26 03:53 · Score: 1

It's sick the way they do business. They'll inject anything they can get away with into the cattle if it helps their profit.

Also when mad cow cases were suspected here, they had already butchered and sold the suspected animals. I'd think they'd want to hold the animal until it could be tested, not get it on store shelves ASAP.

And the dumbest thing is when they get an infected animal, first they try to feed it to us, and when we see the dreadful results from that they decide to feed it to other livestock. Now that's been banned, too, so they feed it to chickens. Why can't they just play it safe and accept that the infected animal is a total loss? Better that than risking people's lives.

Re:Yes, that's disgusting. by LuSiDe · 2004-11-26 06:33 · Score: 1

That's one reason why i don't eat meat. Not that all soy is great though (child labor anybody?)

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WE DON'T NEED NO BLOG CONTROL.
Re:Yes, that's disgusting. by Kiryat+Malachi · 2004-11-26 07:02 · Score: 1

The "look at all the awful things they do to meat" meme is bullshit. If you don't like factory farming, eat properly farmed meat. Nothing tastes good like a cheeseburger made out of no-hormones, free-ranged beef.

--

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Mod me down, you fucking twits. Go ahead. I dare you.
(I read with sigs off.)
Re:Yes, that's disgusting. by LuSiDe · 2004-11-26 23:04 · Score: 1

1) Where does one buy such?
2) How does one know how its farmed?
3) There are other quality aspects to meat. For example, health aspects or when the animal did not have the room to live the meat is 'harsh'. Butchers also regulary put water in the meat so its heavier so they can sell it for more.
4) If you're against the above, one sane thing to do is to boycot these actions by not acting like a garbage collector.

Hence, to me, the step between not eating meat at all and chosing for vegetables instead is as easy, comfortable as researching the state of meat. YMMV.

--
WE DON'T NEED NO BLOG CONTROL.
Re:Yes, that's disgusting. by Kiryat+Malachi · 2004-11-27 04:04 · Score: 1

1) Food co-ops sometimes, farmer's markets, or calling farms that grow it are best bets. I've seen it at major grocery stores, but its rare. You do have to work to track it down. If you have a local kosher or halal butcher, they often have a line on that sort of thing. Other places to ask are at high-end restaurants; they tend to get better quality meat, they may or may not be willing to tell you where.

2) Generally, it is advertised as such, and you have to rely on laws against false advertising unless you have some other way of knowing the truth value, such as knowing the farmer. Kosher/halal certification is also good for knowing certain things about the animal, and here you're simply trusting that the rabbi/whatever the equivalent is for halal isn't lying.

3) This is true. That's why I recommend: organic kosher/halal meat, as there are strict rules as to how it can be raised/killed, as well as being organic meat (no hormones, etc.) As to the water thing, it's like any druggie knows - know your dealer.

4) That's like saying if you're against factory farming, you shouldn't eat eggs at all because some of them are factory farmed. You shouldn't eat factory-farmed products, sure, but its not that hard to track down cage-free eggs. And garbage collector? What?

For me, good meat tastes fucking good, and I'm not about to deprive myself because some people are too lazy to do a little work. Some people have ethical objections to any meat. Some people just don't like the taste. Being that I have neither ethics nor a distaste for beef, it's very little effort for me to eat only/mostly high-quality meat.

I think its amusing how many vegetarians I know who'll happily eat factory-farmed veggies, and then turn around and yell at me when I have halal lamb for dinner.

--

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Mod me down, you fucking twits. Go ahead. I dare you.
(I read with sigs off.)
Re:Yes, that's disgusting. by Anonymous Coward · 2004-11-30 10:47 · Score: 0

Bison tastes better IMO and it's better for you.

Pretend they are technical support... by stienman · 2004-11-26 03:56 · Score: 4, Insightful

My experience has been that with any profession if you, not part of that profession, claim to know better or push them to do what you believe needs to be done, they will be infinitely less useful than they would be otherwise.

Think about computer technical support, as an example we are all familiar with. They are paid to solve your problem according to their standards as quickly as possible, then get the the next call.

Physicians are not different, due to hospital and insurance policy.

If you act belligerent, and insist that you know what's wrong and that they are to follow your orders, they will likely turn a deaf ear to your complaints, do the minimum necessary that won't get them in trouble, and hope that you bug some other physician next time.

Further, like a tech, if they hear that you are searching for the right doctor to diagnose you according to your desires, they will all the more easily dismiss your problem. Firstly because you may well be a hypochondriac, secondly because they know you won't stop until you're treated, and thus they don't need to be burdened with the thought that you might take their advice and then die.

The best way I've found to deal with people who essentially must operate according to a 'script' or 'SOP' is to approach them with my most major complaints/symptoms, avoid using any terminology that might show I know more than I'm letting on, and let them go through their normal procedures.

Doctors (and techs) are getting more used to the idea of self-help, so it can help sometimes to say something like, "I looked my symptoms up online and [reliable medical website] suggested something called 'technical term'. Is there a way to prove that I don't have that?"

The reason physicians and techs are so jaded is because in the vast majority of cases, the doctor hopping, belligerent, advice ignoring patient/client is wrong. Further, if they aren't willing to go through your normal procedure for knocking off the most obvious problems, there's no way in this world that they'll diagnose you for something that is rare.

The fact that your are doctor hopping and hospital hurts you more than it helps. At the minimum you need to get a copy of your medical record from every provider you've visited and then choose a doctor/health system and stick with them. Changing doctors is resetting your medical care. A new doctor has to start from scratch.

Lastly, make sure the 'trouble ticket' isn't closed until you are satisfied. If the doctor gives you a clean bill of health, then ask them why you still have these symptoms. If they won't give you a clear answer, then ask to be bumped up to the second tier of support. There are only three reasons why you might continue to have these symptoms, and ask them point blank which one it is: 1) You have an unresolved medical problem or 2) You are imagining your medical problem or 3) You are considering something 'normal' to be a medical or resolvable issue (ie, there is no treatment)

Tell them this is causing a quality of life issue, and if the problem is 1 then you need it to be resolved. If it's 2 then ask them to send you to a qualified psychologist (who can rule out or resolve hypochondria). If it's 3 then ask them who can help you resolve your pain and suffering so you can be productive again.

I'm sure I don't have the whole story from this side of the issue, nevermind the doctor's side of the issue, so I can't really weigh in on this particular case. My gut tells me that if this was a serious (ie, death at the door) case, then portions of his body would be failing in a detectable way. Especially if he's had this 'bacterial infection' for this long. Perhaps systems are failing and doctors haven't been given the chance (or time before switching) to find them. Funny thing about 'normal' levels of [measurement x] is that normal is a large band, and while you may fall in that band, it may not be normal for you. Until you have a comprehensive case h

100% SELF-PAY by Anonymous Coward · 2004-11-26 04:01 · Score: 0

If you fake being rich, hide the bad fact you have bad health coverage (act like none) and willing to pay sameday, prepay for testing you will get the best treatment humanly possible. I have never had a doctor refuse wierd testing requests, it will even save some money (one doctor gave me about every discount they routinely give). The problem is backoffice restrictions. Up front cash still is prefered! Try camping in a new internal medicine doctor office. On forms asking about coverage write bold print SELF PAY and leave your CC number.
When the great days of high dollar contracting without health coverage, I was able to get the best health service.

Re:Try this by karmatic · 2004-11-26 04:01 · Score: 1

However, the insurance companies are the ones who pay for it, and it's far cheaper to cure you than to treat you.

They certainly have their own interests in mind.

Holisitic remedies by thegnu · 2004-11-26 04:04 · Score: 1, Interesting

I urge Patrick to try holistic remedies if the medical field can't help him. There are many many excellent practitioners who would be able to help him with his problem. Right now, holisitically, Pat should be trying to bolster his immune system, not killing it with antibiotics (I'm not discounting the use of antibiotics, but they don't seem to be working).

I found online that clove (Syzygium aromaticum) combats Actinomyces viscosus, an oral pathogen that sounds like what he was referring to in his first letter. Flushing his body of toxins would be very very beneficial, regardless of whether or not he decides to continue with the medical treatment. Please, Patrick, use holistic methods at least to help your immune system!

Can anyone else find any more information?

--
Please stop stalking me, bro.

Re:recent trend Not just Doctors by xtermin8 · 2004-11-26 04:05 · Score: 1

As someone who use to work in health care, (now searching for a new career) I think its getting harder to interpret your doctor's response, not that they listen less (its a profession that has always bred arrogance) But, they have to consider what insurance is likely to cover, as well as risks of lawsuits. The doctors may be biting thier tongues- because they are not given time or training to explain how insurance proceedures dictate treatment in each case. After all as Bones would say, "I'm a doctor Jim, not a ..."

Re:Try this by AeiwiMaster · 2004-11-26 04:05 · Score: 1

If that is correct then Patrick should be cured by now.

I second this! by thegnu · 2004-11-26 04:09 · Score: 1

The parent post is excellent, but very dense!

Juice ORGANIC fruits and vegetables and eat nothing else for a few days, your body will get rid of loads of toxins, poisons, and harmful bacteria. Juicing DOESN'T COST THAT MUCH. Especially if your other option is paying a doctor 100 dollars an hour.

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Please stop stalking me, bro.

Re:Nutrients and Antibiotics... quack quack by Anonymous Coward · 2004-11-26 04:11 · Score: 0

quack quack quack, what a load of crap.

www.quackwatch.org

Don't get your gallbladder removed. by thegnu · 2004-11-26 04:14 · Score: 1

You can do cleanses that will reduce the load on your liver and gallbladder. When you remove your gallbladder what you're doing is removing the mechanism for balancing the gastrointestinal acidity. The gallbladder holds bile until your stomach is too acidic, then it releases it.

With no gallbladder, your stomach is consistently too alkaline, and when you really NEED the bile, you don't have it, so it has tremendous spikes of acidity. If anyone wants any more info, they can email me.

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Please stop stalking me, bro.

Re:Don't get your gallbladder removed. by detritus` · 2004-11-26 11:41 · Score: 1

Actually you'll notice the gall bladder empties into the deudenum, the cavity right past the stomach. It has nothing to do with stomach alkalinity which i might note is a term used for the buffering capacity of a system to remain at ~ph 7 by neutralizing acids, and as the stomach tends to remain at ~ph2-2.5 it is not an alkaline environment. I really hope no one emails you for info because you have 0 idea what you are talking about. And yes, the gallbladder is an important organ used to produce bile which allows the uptake of various sterols and such, but you can live without it. Many people have thier gallbladders removed every year and you dont see them falling over dead.

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drunk chemists
Re:Don't get your gallbladder removed. by MajorDick · 2004-11-26 15:22 · Score: 1

Christ almighty, I am the original poster and although I went into monor depth of my probelms, does NOONE else know how a gall bladder works ?

NO Bile comes from the gall bladder, NONE ZIP ZILCH, It all comes from the LIVER ITSELF

Background: My son had a liver transplant at 9months old, the cause billiary atresia, he also had deuodonal atresia but that was resolved surgically the day after he was born, My son had a Kasai procedure done where they yank the gall bladder and loop the intestine around the liver to bypass the bile ducts (they are gone from the billiary atresia)

This was done at one month old so he could get to a year to 18 months without a transplant but it didnt work (it only does in about 30% of cases) The final cause of his liver failure was PBC or Primary Billiary Cirhossis, caused by a bile back up in the liver (but REMEBER that was removed at one month old on him)We tried synthetic polar bear bile for some 8 months which he would take orally it helps to thin out the the bile his liver produced in an attempt to flcuh that from his liver, it worked somewhat , bu in the end neither that nor phenobarbitol (also used for its effect on bile production) helped.

I can live without my gall bladder if my son and wife can, if the pain gets too bad Ill have it yanked,

But I repeat no bile is produced by the gall bladder, it simply HOLDS it after the liver has produced it (bile is also one of the ways the liver flushes toxins
Re:Don't get your gallbladder removed. by thegnu · 2004-11-27 07:05 · Score: 1

Actually you'll notice the gall bladder empties into the deudenum, the cavity right past the stomach.
OK. I stand by the alkali/acid balancing of the gastrointestinal tract. I didn't know it had nothing to do with the stomach. Oh, and I don't know 0 now that you told me this. Apparently I know 1. Thanks, however...

And yes, the gallbladder is an important organ used to produce bile
No, the liver produces bile. The gallbladder stores it for when you need it. Now YOU know 1 too!

which allows the uptake of various sterols and such, but you can live without it.
Yes, you can live without your gallbladder. It ruins the acid/alkali balance in your gastrointestinal tract, a magical place that your immune system depends heavily upon. You can live without a lung. You can live without a kidney. You can live without most of your intestine. You can live without a tongue.

I know someone who got his gallbladder removed because of stones. He consistently has acid reflux. I showed him some pictures of gallstones that were removed by flushing and he said, "Man, those are like 10 times bigger than MY stones were."

What I mean, people, is removing your gallbladder is a bad idea. Sometimes your only option is a bad idea, then take it. If you think a gallbladder cleanse will destroy your gallbladder, schedule surgery and give the cleanse a shot 2 days before, and see how it works out.

Some people experience chronic diarrhea after getting their gallbladder removed, too. Not that diarrhea's bad or anything. It's just something to consider.

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Please stop stalking me, bro.

Re:Holisitic remedies quack quack quack by Anonymous Coward · 2004-11-26 04:15 · Score: 1, Insightful

quack quack quack, what a load of crap.

www.quackwatch.org

Re:PubMed--tread with caution by blastedtokyo · 2004-11-26 04:15 · Score: 1

I'd look at PubMed for more ideas on what to try or for ideas to trigger a brainstorm but definately not somewhere to try to learn the critical facets of a condition. It might also be helpful if you read about a study in a major media source and want to see the story beneath the story. The bottom line is that PubMed has tons of studies about everything, but unlike the more 'dumbed down' ones, there's no "credibility" sorting system.

A good study is double-blind controlled, with a sufficiently large yet controlled population, peer reviewed by experts at top journals and reproduced by multiple teams at multiple reputable locations. You can't tell that from PubMed unless you know which journals are more respected than others. Some schlock journal could print a few pages full of lies that would just end up helping someone get tenure. You'd have to read almost every article on a subject with a good medical dictionary and keen eye for your own bias (you'll be looking for studies that affirm your hypothesis) or else you're doing yourself a disservice.

Re:Don't bash me for being insensitive, but by orasio · 2004-11-26 04:15 · Score: 1

The first, the l33t35t, and probably one of the most important factor of widespread free software use.

If Beta's better than VHS, why don't we use it? by thegnu · 2004-11-26 04:18 · Score: 1

What's it going to hurt? You can make one for $25. People don't treat YOU with a rife machine, because you laugh in their face. So lighten up. Don't knock it till you've tried it.

If Linux is better than Windows, why doesn't everyone use it?

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Please stop stalking me, bro.

Re:If Beta's better than VHS, why don't we use it? by Anonymous Coward · 2004-11-26 04:23 · Score: 0

Because it's not. Dumbass.

Re:hmm weird by Anonymous Coward · 2004-11-26 04:19 · Score: 0

I had some ear infection when I was younger, I had a fever that lasted for three and a half months, I could barely hear anything for that period either.
The fever started at 41 degrees celsius and slowly dissapeared over the following months.

I remember the chock when my hearing returned, the ventilation system in the house sounded like a jet engine.

I can't remember ever going to see a doctor.

Re:Try this by thegnu · 2004-11-26 04:20 · Score: 1

only the desperate and the foolish believe them

And the ones who will try anything to not let a disease kill them. How many more months till Pat is desperate enough In Your Humble Opinion to try the Rife machine? If he's helped by it, will you change your little mind?

If they really worked why don't doctors use them
The doctors aren't helping Pat. So that makes your comment moot. MOOT!

--
Please stop stalking me, bro.

eat better as well; can only be good by jago25_98 · 2004-11-26 04:21 · Score: 2, Interesting

if it's viral go thrpough the steps to aid immunue system; can only be good to eat good food:

-protein (i.e. whey) /aminos
+ others

--
A blog I run for the wealth

Could be back/neck problem by LittleStone · 2004-11-26 04:24 · Score: 1

So the symdromes are just illustion. It could be originated from back/neck minor injury due to improper posture by sitting in front of the computer all the time.

Check with a chiropractor.

Disclaimer: I know completely nothing about medicine.

--
A sig is redundant.

Re:Could be back/neck problem by Anonymous Coward · 2004-11-26 06:50 · Score: 0

You may be on to something here.

About 3 months ago, I started getting dizzy and naseous every couple of days. I would lay down for an hour, and I would feel better.

Slowly, my symptoms started to get worse, and I started to get concerned. I would be dizzy for 2 or 3 hours at a time, required gravol to get rid of the naseousness, and started to get lots of muscle tension in the back of my head / neck.

This got me quite worried. I visited a doctor who said I had an ear virus at one point, and that I should let it run its course. So I left it a week or two, and things just got worse. So I went to a different doctor, he said that perhaps I was having some muscle problems, so gave me some anti-inflammatories, which seemed to help for a few days. Then, when the meds were gone, I started to get bad again.

Now I was very worried. Perhaps it was a tumor? Perhaps my brain was leaking out my spinal cord? (Yes, I actually thought these things) Symptoms continued to get worse. I started to get pinching pains in my chest, as well as tingly and numb hands and feet. Went back to doctor, he decided to do bloodwork and neck x-rays. Both turned up nothing.

Finally, one day I was having severe pinching pains in my chest, my whole body was numb. I went to ER. They ran a boatload of bloodwork, an ECG, Xrays, and a few other heart related things. All turned up normal. The ER doctor suggested I was having some type of 'cluster headache' that was causing the head issues, and that the numbness, pinching was actually panic attacks. I half passed him off and went home with the intention of seeing a new doctor.

I then went to a (at this point) 5th doctor. I talked to her and told her what was wrong. She said 'we will do bloodwork'. I said 'i had that done at the ER last week'. SHe asked what tests they all did, and told me to book an appointment for the next week, and she would collect all of the tests from the ER. I went in, and she said all my tests are normal. She asked me a few questions about other symptoms I may have been feeling. Lump in throat feeling Check. Difficulty sleeping Check. Hard to concentrate Check. Turns out, every symptom (minus the muscle tension / weird feeling in neck head) was on a checklist of symptoms for hyper-anxiety. She suggested I do some research into this, and try to find some ways to relax myself. She also suggested I work less at the computer to reduce the stress on my neck head, and gave me some excercises to help strengthen neck / head.

Since then, I started to read a bit about hyper-anxiety. I am pretty confident this is what most of my problems were. I had some simple problem that I blew out of proportion, and running around to many doctors was frustrating me. Once I decided to stick with a doctor (I didn't particularily like her, but I told myself I would go to her until I died or got better).

Now that I am taking more frequent breaks from the computer, got a new chair and set my desk up properly, I have had nearly 0 problems (except a long coding session to get some work done for a client that resulted in the dizzy / muscle tension / weird feeling in head).

Here are my suggestions. I am not a doctor. I have no idea about any of those fancy words you used. I have been in your exact situation before. Slowly getting worse the more I worried about something.

1) try to relax.

If you have a wife / gf / family, ask them to help you relax and be with you. I found my symptoms got worse when I was alone, because I would think about them more. Watch movies (you mentioned only feeling well when lying down, so pull up the couch), read books, learn to tie various types of knots. Anything really to get your mind off your symptoms. Even if you have a serious disease that will kill you tomorrow, you will not be comfortable if you are worrying. It has also been shown that the mind is a powerful thing, and can actually encourage your body to begin healing itself, even from ailments such as cancer or heart disease (read this in national ge
Re:Could be back/neck problem by krumms · 2004-11-26 11:06 · Score: 1

I once had incredible, crushing pains in my chest - all the way from the back of my ribs to my sternum (which felt like it was trying to snap in half). The pain was so incredible that I found it hard to walk, and anything other than the shallowest breating caused enormous pain - and don't get me started on yawning/sneezing!

It wound up being related to my back - a combination of poor posture and sitting hunched over at the computer for hours and hours on end.

Probably not related to Pat's issues, but eh - some might find it interesting :)
Re:Could be back/neck problem by preapocalyptic · 2004-11-27 07:46 · Score: 0

Right on man. Chiropractic is a powerful philosophy.

At least he can get a cheap life insurance. by Craefter · 2004-11-26 04:26 · Score: 1

With all the doctors telling him he's fine it's pretty hard to cheat when filling out a new life insurance.

Re:At least he can get a cheap life insurance. by HeghmoH · 2004-11-26 07:01 · Score: 1

Normally when you cheat at life insurance, you want to cheat at somebody else's life insurance....

--
Mod down posts with a "Free Mac Mini/iPod" sig, they're spam!

I've never shopped for doctors on price. by xtermin8 · 2004-11-26 04:27 · Score: 1

To find a good doctor means shopping around first- and that's really difficult-I think most people only meet more than one physician after they've become seriously ill. There should have been more incentive for your PA to stay in one place, also. I see more problems with doctors "bouncing around" than patients. I don't mean to be rude, but I see so many other serious problems in health care, that even your otherwise good advice seems inadequate in the face of such a broken system.

Re:Try this by Anonymous Coward · 2004-11-26 04:28 · Score: 0

You're possibly the only person in the world dumber than Patrick. Congrats!

What a quote by uid100 · 2004-11-26 04:33 · Score: 1

From Pat's letter
"Pray to God, but keep rowing to shore."

ftp://ftp.slackware.com/pub/slackware/slackware-cu rrent/PAT-NEEDS-YOUR-HELP.txt/

Sounds like an awful sickness to deal with, best wishes Pat.

--
...yup...

The Reality of the Medical System for non-MDs by cquark · 2004-11-26 04:33 · Score: 5, Interesting

As you say, you're an MD, which gives you a different perspective on health care. For example, you know many MDs personally and indirectly through them have a network to many other MDs. Don't you doctor shop too, to find the best person you know? The rest of us don't know any MDs personally, so to find the best doctor, all we have are recommendations from friends who aren't MDs, which are sometimes useful, but generally we actually have to go in for a visit to see how good someone is.

Also, how long will your doctor see you for? The typical visit time for my HMO is 2 minutes, and I've never personally been able to keep a doctor in the room for 5 minutes, even when it took longer than that span to explain my problem.

I've been in Patrick's position, having a chronic condition where I went through over a dozen doctors who were completely useless. All the doctors seemed to have the same set of flowcharts for diagnosing me and never listened to what I said. Each GP did the same tests, sent me to the same types of specialists, and gave up at about the same time. They were like bad help desk personnel reading from the same script.

Fortunately, I met someone with the same problem and went to her doctor (that she'd found through a multi-year search like the one I had been doing). Her doctor was outside my HMO and quite expensive as a result, but well worth the cost as he spent the time to talk with me and learn my medical history, diagnosed the problem correctly, and prescribed a successful set of treatments.

Perhaps you would know the right person to go to immediately, but most of the rest of us are trapped in the HMO system without your connections to find the right person or to convince most MDs to spend more than a couple minutes with us.

Re:The Reality of the Medical System for non-MDs by winwar · 2004-11-26 13:12 · Score: 1

"They were like bad help desk personnel reading from the same script."

I'm glad I'm not the only one who feels that way. Of course, I feel many specialists aren't much better. And I wish it wasn't so...

Once you get to the proper doctor it general seems so easy. The best part is how those doctors wonder how other specialts missed the obvious symptoms (had that more than once). The hard part is finding that doctor. At least now I know that I need to find the proper doctor-it shortens the process a great deal (no sense dealing with more than one GP...)

The last GP I had was not a great doctor but I liked her. She knew very little about my chronic problems (and admitted it) but was willing to write referrals any time I wanted...

Re:They reserve that treatment for Americans.... by xtermin8 · 2004-11-26 04:38 · Score: 1

I'd think surgery for ingrown toenails would be a bigger waste of money- Should've refused you outright. Did you happen to be locked in a little padded room while you were there? Were you really donating blood and getting Novacaine or did the nice nurse give you a little something to relax while you stayed with the "special" patients?

Can't he contact NIH by baywulf · 2004-11-26 04:40 · Score: 1

Can't he contact NIH or something? If he has something none of his doctors can't identify yet he has serious symptoms, I would think some governmental agency would be concerned. Well atleast they are in the movies.

Re:Can't he contact NIH by Anonymous Coward · 2004-11-26 14:40 · Score: 0

Ever been to a doctor?

They aren't so much in real life.

MOD PARENT UP! by One+Childish+N00b · 2004-11-26 04:42 · Score: 1

I hate attitudes like that of the grandparent so much - why is a child more important than an adult? What has the theoretical child done to warrant extra care and protection than the theoretical adult?

Sorry, just being a kid doesn't cut it for me, especially if the adult is someone as technically adroit as Patrick Volkerding. In any case, let's leave the morbid comparisons out of this, shall we? If he's reading this, we want him to see well-wishers and, hopefully, ideas on ways to cure his condition - not some jackass weighing his life up against some theoretical kid with leukemia.

--
Dealing with lawyers would be a lot less tedious if they all looked like Casey Novak.

Re:Hurry up and die faggot by 320mb · 2004-11-26 04:45 · Score: 0

IF Pat dies, I'll quit using Linux altogether........... Slack is the only distro I'll ever use because ...........RPM's SUCK.......so ( mandrake, redhat/fedora, gentoo, and others who use rpm garbage are Crap distro's )and Debian blows goats..........

--
=== 'Kernel Panic' no sig found:

Re:PubMed--tread with caution by Anonymous Coward · 2004-11-26 04:45 · Score: 0

you can't spell, you silly goose, you shouldn't give anyone health advice

Re:Plan Of Action by jaraxle · 2004-11-26 04:47 · Score: 1

And no you dont have to be a citizen, just show up at a hospital and they have to treat you.

Funny enough, over the past couple of years I have had, on and off, pain in my hip/lower back so severe that there are times that I cannot walk, or get up from sitting without excruciating help. One night, this happened and in the early morning my fiancee took me to the hospital where I had been admitted about a year before. The prior visit, I had been diagnosed as having kidney stones, and the symptoms were pretty much the same, so I figured same routine.

Well, two doctors saw me. The first ordered a morphine drip with a follow up of Toridol (sp) for long term pain relief. Before a nurse came with the drugs (the pain was almost unbearable), the doctor came back with another doctor who told me that it wasn't kidney stones and that I was being discharged.

Now, I was still in a lot of pain, and they didn't even bother to do any tests whatsoever (minus a quick physical check of what caused the pain... lifting a leg, etc). The nurse came in with the drip but was told that I wouldn't be needing it. I was given a prescription of Oxycocet, a painkiller that works wonders, but numbs *everything* (hence why the fiancee didn't like it, lol), and told to leave.

Now, maybe that's considered treatment to some, but given how much pain I was in, I got the feeling that the doctor didn't believe me one bit and just prescribed the Oxycocet to get rid of me. Personally I would have liked to at least have had an X-ray done, or a CT scan (which was how they found the stones the last time).

Fortunately the pain has subsided enough that I don't notice it most of the time, but every once in a while it hurts like hell when I get up from sitting or laying down.

~jaraxle

Possibly a case of ME? by NoMercy · 2004-11-26 04:47 · Score: 1

It is possible, and I hear it can be triggered by stress and ill health combined... also rarely diagnosed unless you happen to find a doctor who believes in it.

I had very similar problem by Anonymous Coward · 2004-11-26 04:49 · Score: 0

What's the best way to get in touch with Patrick? I'm in NYC and maybe can turn him on to the doctors that wrestled my infection to the mat.

I don't see any email address for Patrick other than the general info/security/webmaster@slackware addresses.

Cheers,

Re:I had very similar problem by Anonymous Coward · 2004-11-26 07:27 · Score: 0

volkerdi at slackware.com

What about McAfee? by The+Dodger · 2004-11-26 04:54 · Score: 0, Flamebait

Or Sophos? I hear they're pretty good with viruses...

D.

(Score: -279, Bad Taste)

Re:What about McAfee? by FullCircle · 2004-11-26 05:45 · Score: 1

What?

ClamAV! (www.clamav.net)

He is open source you know...

We love you Pat and wish you the best.

--
If tyranny and oppression come to this land, it will be in the guise of fighting a foreign enemy. - James Madison

The system sometimes fails by murderlegendre · 2004-11-26 04:54 · Score: 5, Interesting

Patrick's unfortunate plight is not all that surprising to me. I lived for 27 years with two undiagnosed major medical problems, despite scores of visits to doctors and ERs.

Years of unexplained nausea & abdominal pain, weak immunity, mysterious pains that roamed randomly over my body, recurring flu-like symptoms, joint and muscle pain, headaches etc. I was called everything.. hypochondriac, liar, quitter, faker etc. So many specialists, tests, and so on, that I can't even count them all.

Finally, on yet another desperate 3am ER visit, my then-wife demanded that they look until they find something to explain all of this. Some bright ER intern plops an ultrasound on my belly (no, none of the many other "medical professionals" had ever bothered to do this..). The discussion went like this:

Intern: Do you have any history of kidney disease?

Me: No..

Intern: You do now!

24 hours later, I was diagnosed with PROFOUNDLY ADVANCED Polycystic Kidney Disease. My kidneys were so enlarged that they were squashing all of my other organs out of place. This hadn't happend overnight; it was with me all of my life, slowly getting worse every year. Once they had the kidneys figured out, it wasn't long until they had the Fibromyalgic illness / chronic fatigue diagnosed as well. Needless to say, after 27 years of suffering, I was less than totally impressed with the medical profession.

In short, the system sometimes fails.. and when it does, it can be a real doozy. Hang in there Pat, every illness has a cause, and yours will surely be found. Blessed be.

--
There's a Starman, waiting in the sky / He'd like to come and meet us, but he hasn't got the time.

Re:Not so funny anymore by Anonymous Coward · 2004-11-26 04:57 · Score: 0

Maybe it wasn't such a good idea to join a mockery religion after all?
So you are saying he is a christian?

He should come to Colombia by Anonymous Coward · 2004-11-26 04:58 · Score: 0

Yes I know...Colombia is in the third world, but here the medicine is pretty good and cheaper than in USA. I strongly recommend this because a friend and his son came from Japan to find a cure for his illnes because japanese doctors could not.
One good place to start is Centro Medico Imbanaco

Re:Christian Scientist, or microsoft FUD? by Anonymous Coward · 2004-11-26 04:58 · Score: 0

Are you trying to make anti-M$ people look like idiots? Either you need to seriously talk with someone about your paranoia, or just stop talkin smack!

sounds like bacterial endocarditis, but.... by Anonymous Coward · 2004-11-26 05:02 · Score: 0

His SED rate would be very high if that was the case.

They need to determine which bug they're dealing with and then put him on a LONG stint of intravenous antibiotics. This happened to me a few years back and I was flat on my ass for the better part of 2 months while they pumped me full of antibiotics (Rocephin ultimately worked, but it takes time).

Best of luck to Pat,

MOD UP!! by Anonymous Coward · 2004-11-26 05:03 · Score: 0

That is good advice and summarizes all my own thoughts on the matter.

Don't doctor-shop. Find any doct, and work with that doc iteratively. That means: "Doctor, do I have X?" .. "I don't believe you do" .. "I'm not convinced.. can we run more tests?" .. "Okay, the second/third/fourth tests once again show you don't have X. See this number here? Since it is below N, you don't have X, because X raises your B count." .. "Okay, let's move to the next possibility".

Only if your doct is NOT willing to work with you and is clearly not going to help you make progress should you move to another.

Don't expect the docto r to do a test and immediately come up with a pathology. Use a doc to definitively RULE OUT problems. Work with the doctor as above. Thinking of them as technical support is a good idea.

Yes, the brain-dead tech you're on the phone with is going to tell you to reboot first.. because 90% of the time, THAT WORKS. So humor them. Same with the doctors. Start at step one and move forward. Don't jump from place to place looking to start at step five.

Don't use big words you read on the internet. Doctors have seen folks like that and they don't like them. However keep up your research. When the doc says "your XYZ is inflammed" you should say "my XYZ.. that's the lining between my FOO and my BAR, right? That can get inflammed because of Q?" and listen to your doctor. He might laugh and say something like "Yes, but Q is only common in newborns." In other words, YOU DON'T HAVE HIS EXPERIENCE. But you might also read something subtle he's missed in his career. Again, the key is to be a "partner" with your doc, to solve a common problem. Assume he knows more than you though, because he does.

If your labs consistently come back negative, believe them.

Don't rule out horses OR zebras. You might have anything.

Re:MOD UP!! by winwar · 2004-11-26 14:02 · Score: 1

"Only if your doct is NOT willing to work with you and is clearly not going to help you make progress should you move to another."

Sorry, don't agree. I have had doctors that while they don't hinder they don't help much. I only go to them when I need X and I know that they are willing to prescribe it (medicine/tests/etc). Better doctors move faster.

"Assume he knows more than you though, because he does."

Huh? You have got to be kidding. He MIGHT know more than you on certain subjects-common ones. If you know a GP better able to treat my migraines (in other words, knows more than me-in the Columbus, OH area), please let me know. My better doctors realized I knew more than they did (with regards to my chronic illnesses). Sure they gave suggestions when I asked but that's it.

For common ailments, yeah, they know more than me. But most common ailments don't need to be treated by a doctor (flu, cold, cuts, sprains, etc.) It is a waste of time and money.

Look, in the end, doctors are consultants. They work for YOU. If it is a medically reasonable request and they won't do it, they aren't worth keeping. And "medically reasonable" is pretty large, especially if you are willing to pay for it (in the area of tests....)

Re:Try this by Anonymous Coward · 2004-11-26 05:09 · Score: 0

And us computer geeks get paid to work on computers. To make them work reliably would be bad for business, so we'd never fix one correctly.

Doctors, like computer geeks, won't have any shortage of business for a very long time. They don't need to do their job badly to keep the money flowing.

Acupuncture.... by initself · 2004-11-26 05:09 · Score: 1

...or mescaline, Pat. Either way you win!

Natural pills NOT always so "innocent" by Anonymous Coward · 2004-11-26 05:16 · Score: 0

I am not a medical pro or something but I know at least 1 pill, "Echinecea" can create problems with heart/hypertension pills.

"for many of the suggestions on how to boost my immune system with
natural products (hey, that oregano oil can't hurt and tastes
pretty good! :-)."

Urged to post it after reading that. Solgar, biggest/oldest company in business (www.solgar.com) RECOMMENDS asking your doctor before taking ANY natural tablet.

Some of them does their job so well that causes problems with chemical pills.

I bet this place is loaded with MD's now, so they better get into insight of it.

Sounds like myocarditis or endocarditis by thewiz · 2004-11-26 05:17 · Score: 1

Patrick,
You have probably heard this from others already, but it sounds like you might have myocarditis http://www.nlm.nih.gov/medlineplus/ency/article/00 0149.htm or endocarditis http://www.americanheart.org/presenter.jhtml?ident ifier=4436.

As someone who has been through endocarditis and congestive heart failure, your symptoms sound hauntingly familiar. Preferring to lay flat on your back, very little energy, dizziness where all things I experienced. My advice to you is keep looking for the BEST cardiologist (not a general practitioner) you can find. There are many things that a cardiologist will notice that a GP will not. Tell the doctor EVERYTHING you've been through; start a personal blog or journal and note down every time you have symptoms.

Don't give up, don't put it off, don't take "You're fine." as a valid answer; keeping looking until you find a cardiologist who is willing to listen with an open mind. Your health come FIRST! Without that, life is pretty miserable.

--
If "disco" means "I learn" in Latin, does "discothèque" mean "I learn technology"?

Re:The problem with Patrick... by volkerdi · 2004-11-26 05:17 · Score: 4, Informative

Seriously, if you kept yourself informed, you'd realise by now that Pat was _never_ self medicating, when he was on antibiotics it was always under perscription.

Exactly.

I'm also getting some people who are telling me that this whole issue was caused by antibiotics that weakened my immunity. However, from around 2/2003 to 11/2004, I did not take _any_ antibiotics. When I started to get really sick in October I hadn't had antibiotics in well over a year. I had only two short courses of antibiotics in 2002 and 2003 for what seemed to be bronchitis (though the docs never verified if it was bacterial or viral but just said, "here, eat some Cipro).

One more time:

I have not been "self-medicating".

I have never, ever, taken antibiotics until I felt better and then stopped them, allowing a resistant relapse to occur. I have, however, been given an insufficient initial course of antibiotics for prostatitis in 2001 (which is what then required a long course of Cipro).

For those who are making fun of my supposedly improper use of medical terms, or wrong context, or whatever: this is not my field of expertise and we both know it. I don't hassle people trying to get computer help from me when they use incorrect jargon. Maybe BMDFH should be a new acronym.

On the hypochondria theory: anyone who has ever spent any significant time with me in person would shoot that one down in an instant. The last two months have been highly unusual for me, and I've never been inclined to think that I'm sick, to worry about that, or to go see doctors.
I hate being a pincushion.

Oh, and I know that seeing a new doctor causes a reinvent the wheel syndrome, and that when you tell them how many other doctors you've seen recently they tend to suspect you're crazy rather than physically ill. I know this all too well. However, if the antibiotics I've taken are suppressing the usual clinical evidence then I'm in a bit of a catch-22. As sick as I've been, the idea of using my body as a petri dish doesn't appeal to me much, comprende? Plus, some of these bugs (especially anerobes) simply don't culture well, and they won't go for the slam-dunk with a needle biopsy. At some point you'd think there would be a time for proactive treatment. Like in, say, a patient with no history of heart trouble who has complained of a recent fever and infection who has developed a new mitral valve prolapse.

I guess that's about it for now. I know some of you think I'm an behaving like an idiot, or whatever. I only hope that those of you who feel that way never find yourselves in my shoes.

To everyone who has offered well-wishes, thank you!

Best regards to /.,

Pat

Re:They reserve that treatment for Americans.... by my_fake_account · 2004-11-26 05:21 · Score: 1

um-- that's how you fix an ingrown toenail-- you sedate the toe then rip off the nail (that's what they did with my brother's anyway). That is surgery-- though really mild surgery.

I guess you could do it yourself, but it would take at least a fifth of liquor.

I don't know why they'd postone it though-- it takes about five minutes to do.

Re:I have weird symptoms too by Anonymous Coward · 2004-11-26 05:25 · Score: 0

Wow. A fucking Jesus freak. Haven't seen one of those before.

Don't you have some spasmatic evangelist audience to wow with your "healing" tricks?

Re:I have weird symptoms too by Anonymous Coward · 2004-11-26 05:25 · Score: 0

i think ur symptoms indicate that u r off ur rocker!

Re:Hypochondria by Anonymous Coward · 2004-11-26 05:25 · Score: 0

Why is someone who's concerned about his bodily fluids, when the people around him aren't, immediately labled a paranoid schizophrenic?

Re:The problem with Patrick... by Prophetic_Truth · 2004-11-26 05:26 · Score: 1

PREFACE: I respect all the work Pat Volkerding has done for linux, and specificly slackware. I truly hope Pat feels better and gets the help he needs.

Hi Welsh Dwarf.

I would like to correct you. You point out in at least 3 other replies regarding this /. story, that Pat wasn't self medicating. Lets look at Pat's own words.

This all began quite some time ago, perhaps as long ago as May of 2001..[edit]...The doctor who saw me did a chest X-ray and didn't think it was too unusual. I was told it was probably bronchitis and was sent home with a prescription for ciprofloxacin which mostly cleared up the problem. Still the pain in my shoulder seemed to vaguely remain. By mid October of 2001, I was in bad shape again. My parents asked me what I wanted for my birthday and I told them some more Cipro. They found someone who was able to help me out with a 60 day supply.

So rather than returning to the doctor four months later he decided to have his parents to get Cipro by some other means? Is "someone" even a doctor? Why wouldn't the previous doctor prescribe the Cipro again? Not convinced? lets look further..

I chalked the events of 2001 up to stress, but in retrospect I am not so sure. I had similar problems in 2002 and 2003 that were also knocked back with some antibiotics, but the pain in my left upper back (and some kind of "presence" there) never did fully clear up.

Sounds like he has the Cipro on hand. I wonder how many 60-day supplies he got (i know later Pat recants "60 days" but does it sound like he ever stopped taking Cipro?) . He goes on and on about doing his own research and diagnosing his own problems. Seriously, if you read the whole thing I don't know how you can't say that this is nothing more than a mental disorder. Pat's first mention about his health problems opens with:

"I've generally been a pretty healthy guy. Nobody I know would characterize me as a hypochondriac by any stretch, so when I raise an alarm it tends to be for real.

^- thats a lie. Someone has called Pat a hypochondriac and its the reason he starts off denying that he is one. We should look further into what could make Pat act this way, I think its the old subconcious screwing with poor Pat, mainly something to do with his Dad.

Some of it was white and reminded me of dental plaque. In spite of being a dentist's son I've never had the best oral hygiene so I'm familiar with plaque.

His dad is a dentist, and Pat hated to brush his teeth. I probably could stop here, but it's interesting how Pat describes his condition. dental plaque? Don't you think Pat's dad would tell him all the horrible things that would happen if Pat didnt brush and floss everyday? Don't you think that really got on Pat's nervs?

The "plaque" I was getting out of my lungs was some nasty stuff and smelled just like dental floss used after a couple of days without brushing. Yeah, I know I should be better about that, but tend to stay up late and if my wife is already asleep don't always turn the light on and wake her up so I can brush before bed. To help me avoid more tooth decay my dad bought me one of those fancy rechargable electric toothbrushes that really powers away the plaque. It also creates a fine aerosol mist of plaque, and I started to wonder if 4 years of using this brush had caused me to breathe in some of this plaque mist and moved an infection into my lungs.

yep..looks like it did..
Here's where poor Pat goes wrong. Pat finds a kook doctor whose morality takes a back seat to his greed.

The next day (Saturday, 13th) I went to a local clinic with an MD in private practice. This guy was/is great, and has seen me about a half dozen times since. He agreed that I had signs of serious infection, including a disgusting garlic/sulfur smell you could detect at 50 paces. He put me on levaquinone and metronidazo

--
time is a perception of a being's consciousness
time is your 6th sense, the wierd ones are 7+

Re:Hypochondria by my_fake_account · 2004-11-26 05:28 · Score: 1

The biggest problem with self-diagnosis is that you can convince yourself you have anything.

Every med student I've ever talked to went through a brief period of thinking "oh my god! I have that!" when they were learning disease symptoms.

This is a crock of shit by HydroCarbon10 · 2004-11-26 05:30 · Score: 1

A rife machine! You've got to be fucking kidding me. Did you read the part where they start talking about heterodyning and claim to achieve it by shining light of two frequencies on the same point? Newsflash - that will only add the two beams of light, heterodyning relies on multiplication of sinusoids. Addition is a linear operator and therefore you will never get frequencies out of an addition that you didn't initially put into it. This is a crock of shit.

--
The best way to accelerate a windows box is at 9.8 meters per second square.

Re:This is a crock of shit by laing · 2004-11-26 07:02 · Score: 1

I know nothing of rife machines but I'm afraid that you are mistaken. A good example of "hetrodyning" is a "superhetrodyne" receiver. (Pretty much every radio receiver made these days works this way.) An internal "local" oscillator is mixed (in a mixer) with the amplified input frequency (the one of interest) to prodice an intermediate frequency (IF). Whenever you mix two frequencies you get both sum and difference. The IF is filtered to remove the sum (image) and keep the difference. (Sometimes the receiver is designed to keep the sum and lose the difference.)

As light is just electromagnetic radiation, the same principles apply. You can beat (mix) two different light sources together and produce both sum and difference. This doesn't usually work very well unless the light sources are coherent (lasers).

--
This space for rent
Re:This is a crock of shit by HydroCarbon10 · 2004-11-26 14:58 · Score: 1

I know all about superhet receivers, and the mixer is a multiplier, not an adder. Mixers are only adders in audio-land. The sum and difference terms are the result of the modulation property. The modulation property states that the fourier transform of f(x)*cos(w0*t) is equal to 1/2[F(w-w0)+F(w+w0)]. Notice the multiplication.

Furthermore, by definition, the output of a *linear* system will consist of the exact same set of frequencies that comprised the input to the system. Addition is a linear operator. If you could shift the frequency of light by shining two beams on the same point, then I could take two red laser pointers and produce a dot of color other than red by shining the two beams on the same point. You can't, and the reason is that you're performing addition, not multiplication.

--
The best way to accelerate a windows box is at 9.8 meters per second square.
Re:This is a crock of shit by laing · 2004-11-26 19:11 · Score: 1

Your comment is so off base that it's not really worthey of a reply. Nonetheless I was drawn into doing it anyway. I suggest that you review your basic science and mathematics. Perhaps you're just deliberatey trolling and you reeled me in.

--
This space for rent

Re:Try this by rasz · 2004-11-26 05:34 · Score: 1

>Rife machine

And while your at it, try to eat your poo, I heard that it helps a lot in your condition

--
Go grab those torrents.

Non-EU citizens do not get free NHS treatment by igb · 2004-11-26 05:40 · Score: 1

US citizens in principle need to pay for treatment
in the NHS unless they hold dual nationality (and
there are, from memory, some requirements to be
vaguely connected to the social security system
in that case). How far that is enforced is a bit
of a lottery, and you might get away with it. But
``health tourism'' is becoming a bit of a right-
wing flag waver at the moment. If you don't hold
either UK citizenship or an E111 (which is a
pan-EU document which proves you are entitled to
be treated in countries of the EU as though you
were a citizen of that country) then you may
be refused non-emergency treatment, and billed
for emergency treatment.

[[ slightly related note: a British citizen in
Germany gets treatment on the same financial
basis as a German citizen, not a British citizen
in Britain. As most non-UK EU countries have an
element of insurance to their health funding,
travelling outside the UK with just an E111 is
not a wise move. ]]

ian

Boosting immune system by Anonymous Coward · 2004-11-26 05:49 · Score: 0

I have not read the details of Pat's condition. I skimmed through his own description.

Maybe Pat could think in terms of doing things to boost his immune system. He could look into something like the body ecology diet. http://www.bodyecologydiet.com/

I have not used this myself. I saw the book at a bookstore.

Also, there are supplements that help boost the immune system.

Dude needs help by peripatetic_bum · 2004-11-26 05:51 · Score: 1

Unfortunately I read his posts and the things he says he has, but the doctor doesnt see dont add up.

If he really had infective endocarfitis, and had developed MVP he would be in a world of pain and any doctor would have admitted him and gotten a stat echocardiogram of the heart.

PAT IF YOU ARE READING THIS AND REALLY THINK YOUR HEART IS IN TROUBLE GET AN ECHOCARDIOGRAM!

However, certain things in his post dont add up.
I hate to say this but unless I spoke to him directly and Im just going on what he writes, I would say that *somethine* else (not medical, but inducinf medical symtpoms) is going on. Pat, what is really going on in your life?

--

Sigs are dangerous coy things

Re:Hurry up and die faggot by Deekin_Scalesinger · 2004-11-26 06:01 · Score: 1

Mod parent up, and grandparent, there might be more than a few nuggets of truth in the parent's post...get yer asbestos undies ready.

--
"As the intrepid kobold companion continues his journey, he begins to wonder... if priests raises dead, why anybody die?

Re:FOR THE LAST TIME! GRAMMAR MATTERS! by Anonymous Coward · 2004-11-26 06:03 · Score: 1, Funny

It turns out that verb agreement is important. Unless you will told me him name is Hopkin Green Frog. Seriously, it makes you sound dumber than you probably are.

Great by Anonymous Coward · 2004-11-26 06:04 · Score: 0

Now you just added to his sickness by blinding him with that all caps sentence..

Re:Great by Anonymous Coward · 2004-11-26 08:35 · Score: 0

Not to mention that he had plenty of EKGs.

Re:The problem with Patrick... by Anonymous Coward · 2004-11-26 06:16 · Score: 0

It is rare to have Cipro prescribed for use past 2 weeks. Just because he saw a doctor and he had it prescribed at some point doesn't mean he isn't abusing his scrip.

Getting 60 days' worth of Cipro via his family as a "birthday present" raises a lot of red flags. Do I have to drive this point home any more? He didn't get his Cipro through a pharmacy, he got it through his family! The other red flag is the massive amount of Cipro.

He's self-medicating and simply denying it on Slashdot. His own story as well as the facts contradict him. Someone needs to hold the guy down and strip him of his computers and internet access and drag him into a hospital for admission and observation.

You are confused. by Anonymous Coward · 2004-11-26 06:23 · Score: 0

He's not fighting for his health, he's fighting his health. Wandering from doctor to doctor, and worse trying to get drugs without even being looked at is dangerous behaviour. There's a difference between taking an active interest in your own diagnosis/treatment, and going out of your way to hinder it so you can keep getting attention.

Re:You are confused. by Anonymous Coward · 2004-11-26 14:05 · Score: 0

Lets not let the facts get in the way of saying "YOU'RE A HYPOCHONDRIAC!!!!"

Oh, and by the way, every doctor in the world is absolutely perfect. They all scored 100% on all their exams and all their assignments in school, and they all diagnose 100% of the patients problems 100% correctly 100% of the time, even when they were not fully aware of all the symptoms and spent no more than a few short seconds thinking about it.

No, there is no possible way that the a doctor could ever mis-diagnose someone. Obviously, this person who has spent many long hours creating a product most of us love is making all of this up just because he can. Obviously, he is just doing it for personal fame. That is why he has his name on the boot screen of every version of Slackware and is constantly submitting his own musings and writings to different news agencies.

Or, perhaps, you are simply a fool who doesn't realize that when you don't have your health, you do everything you can to get it back. Patrick posted to the community because he wants his health back. Patrick is not stupid. Of him and you, that makes one.

1/2 agree by thegnu · 2004-11-26 06:24 · Score: 1

While I half-agree, some of your points don't really carry any water. It's definitely good to look into what something does before taking it, including all side effects. This is less often the case with MEDICINE than with homeopathic remedies. Maybe because people are more sceptical of them, maybe because people actually RESEARCH them, instead of just taking some dude's word for it.

Solgar recommends asking your doctor, because they don't want to be liable. It's like skateboard manufacturers saying that their product isn't made for use on cement, or "Tobacco" shops stocking bongs, and selling Salvia Divinorum for use as incense. It's a legal issue. Also, people will buy Calcium, take the whole bottle, and die, and solgar wants their customers to talk to someone educated before they do something stupid.

Here's a preliminary list of things that can kill you in high quantities:
Water
Oxygen
Carbon Monoxide
Salt
Aspirin
Tylenol

Umm... Catch my drift?

--
Please stop stalking me, bro.

The underlying issue by Ex-MislTech · 2004-11-26 06:25 · Score: 1

Like ppl have said alot of ppl got into tech because of the money
not because they were good at it .

The same thing is going on with medicine, and the pill companies
are pushing their products as the best choice .

Companies that own hospitals will not do a biopsy without a
definitive diagnosis because policy has changed and has
more about profit than about helping ppl .

The underlying problem here ??? ..... Greed

Greed is subverting the true artisans, and railroading compassion
in the medical field .

It is doing it in other fields as well .

Hopefully someone will help Patrick, and whether or not Pat is a
doctor, the power of google cannot be questioned.

There is a tremendous amount of information on the internet .

When one symptom is present I'd question it, when like Pat
himself says he fits the laundry list of symptoms its time to
at least consider and do some tests .

The senoir medical community has warned of super bacteria and
virii that are highly resistant to treatment .

Our friend Pat might just be one of the unfortunate early cases .

May god or whomever you believe in bring help to him .

Peace,
Ex-MislTech

--
google "32 trillion offshore needs IRS attention"

IAh, yes... by thegnu · 2004-11-26 06:26 · Score: 0, Offtopic

...Windows ME will fuck up just about anything.

--
Please stop stalking me, bro.

Oregano Oil is interesting by Alien54 · 2004-11-26 06:28 · Score: 2, Insightful

Pure Oregano oil has some interesting properties. Initial research looks promising, with much more to be done. And like anything else, to get large quantities of the essential ingredients directly from the herb requires that you eat a pound or two of the stuff consistantly on a daily basis.

Usually what you see sold in places like vitamin shops etc is a concentrated oil diluted with olive oil. Typically, you will get a 1 or 2 percent solution. And it is relatively high priced.

That said, you can order reasonable concentrations online if you google around for a while. Note that these are usually marked for aromatic use only, as the concentration is regarded as too intense for actual internal consumption.

There is enough spread that someone could find a profit margin in there someplace.

--
"It is a greater offense to steal men's labor, than their clothes"

I was able to diagnose by wife's joint problems... by Anonymous Coward · 2004-11-26 06:30 · Score: 0

using common sense and google of course, after NYC's "free-clinic" doctors put her on voluntary TBC treatment and didn't tell her that secondary/tertiary side effects are extreme joints pain. (But by that time I was short $2500 (emergency room, x-ray, visits to joint/sport medicine "specialist") - but at least I didn't have to purchase a custom made knee brace or oay for an MRI)

So the validity of "self-diagnoze" should be judged on the capacity of the patient, and should not dismissed just because it is an old cliche.

By the same token a friend of mine almost lost a few teeth because the dentist, and also the Dean of a famous dental school was not aware that she had a broken arm a few months. But it doesn't take a rocket scientist to realize that there is a connection between broken bone, calcium, or lack off, and brittle teeth. Any dentists in the house?

Why the mod-down? by thegnu · 2004-11-26 06:30 · Score: 2, Insightful

I've been noticing that people have been modding down the posts about holistic remedies. I'm not saying that they're the only answer, but I certainly think that in the interest of saving someone's life, we should be making it EASIER to find more varied information, not harder.

--
Please stop stalking me, bro.

You get what you pay for. by mosel-saar-ruwer · 2004-11-26 06:31 · Score: 2, Funny

Obviously, I have not examined this guy. He might have a new disease that completely goes against science as we know it. But people come to us for rare medical problems all the time... we love it. When we find something rare, we jump around giving each other high-5s. We spend tons of research and government money trying to figure out these rare case. However...

I'm just not buying in this case.

*****

When his story was first posted on slashdot, several of the hospital network gurus came up to me and asked me about it in our CIS meeting...

If you were to reread my post, I wasn't giving advice. I was just giving my opinion of his situation.

Oddly enough, I had just finished reading this post on an unrelated thread:

Client/Server Calendar Program?
Rephrase the question: We want everything, and want it for free. We could use the free tools available, but they aren't stable enough and we're too lazy to help develop the free product.
I need a free solution that does everything! Someone write one for me!
http://ask.slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=130746&cid =10924472

Sadly, I got the same feeling when I perused Volkerding's missive - I couldn't help but wonder whether the guy is willing to pay for proper medical care.

As you indicated in your first post, one of the most likely explanations for his condition is hypochondria, but competing for the title of "most likely explanation" will always be the possibility [or even probability] of incompetence on the part of the attending physician. And closely related to that possibility is an obtuse, self-destructive determined-ness on the part of the patient to refuse to pay for proper medical care.

Volkerding goes on and on about showing up at this or that emergency room with this and that complaint, but surely he must realize that the MDs in the ER who are examining him at all hours of the night are precisely the doctors who were too stupid to get into a proper American medical school, and got their degrees from some diploma mill in a third world cesspool like Grenada.

If you're sick, and you suspect you have a viral infection, you don't go to a family practitioner, or an internist, or even an "Emergency Room Physician" - you go to a virologist. And you don't go to any virologist, you go to the virologist who graduated #1 from his class at Harvard Med and who is chairman of the Department of Infectious Diseases and who has published numerous articles in Nature, Science, and the like.

And if you suspect you have a cardiovascular problem, you don't go to a family practitioner, or an internist, or even an "Emergency Room Physician" - you go to a cardiologist, or a cardiovascular surgeon. And you don't go to any cardiologist, you go to the cardiologist who graduated #1 from his class at Harvard Med and who is chairman of the Cardiology Department and who has published numerous articles in Nature, Science, and the like.

"But that's not fair," legions of /.-ers will cry. Your damned right it's not fair - it's called "life." You want fair, you purchase your crappy HMO policy from Oligopoly Insurance Inc, with its $10 co-payments for ER visits, and you get "fair" medicine. Better yet, you move to Canada and sit in line for two years waiting to see a doctor.

You know, a while back, there was this experiment in "fair", where a bunch of intellectuals tried to create a "fair" society, and all that's left of their efforts now is the rapidly fading memory of about 100 million people who were butchered by equal opportunity murderers parading under pseudonyms like Lenin and Stalin.

Back to the original point, though: There's a reason that Oracle isn't free, that Windows isn't free, that DB2 isn't free, that Novell Directory Services isn't free, etc, etc, etc: It's because th

Re:You get what you pay for. by Rooktoven · 2004-11-26 07:06 · Score: 1

This sounds like that "Compassionate Conservatism" crap I keep hearing about.

--

Acquiescence leads to obliteration
Re:You get what you pay for. by Anonymous Coward · 2004-11-26 09:44 · Score: 0

Great dreams and ideals- the problem: reality. Like in software, there is an unimaginably huge immovable machine in place and an effort just short of a major revolution will be needed to change it significantly.

I agree about $ for software, but you're forgetting the immoveable market power of monopoly or oligopoly.

It doesn't take a genius to imagine that someone could write a better OS than Windows, but who has the money to invest in enough advertising and distribution to compete with MS? From 1900 until the 1950s there were dozens of car companies- YOU could start your own if you wanted to. Do you have a clue what it would take to seriously compete with any major car company now?

If we give the sw away free (for now) we hopefully can create a market and some competition. Slowly there are companies which are making money selling Linux apps. :)

Everybody agrees that the HMOs are badly hurting the whole health care system, but nobody seems to be doing much about it. The problem is horribly complex, driven by the almost infinite economic demand of health care need (costs could go much higher.) I think a good first step would be that ALL insurance companies be forced to be completely open-book, public, NON PROFIT - no stock prices or dividends. No exceptions.
Re:You get what you pay for. by owlstead · 2004-11-26 12:58 · Score: 4, Insightful

Only idiots think in black and white. There are middle ways. Most of Europe is using it. You don't have to have a stalinist regime to have a social healthcare. It's even cheaper in the long run. Going broke for the rest of your life because you *think* you have an unknown infectual dissease would even scare me off.

In a world where 1% of the people provides food and another one prevents housing, why can't you get free healthcare in America. It would cost a few percent of the war in Iraq (which will flood the hospitals in the years to come, even if the fighting would stop now).

Anyway, the repuplican party is showing the whole world that a country led by companies and bureaucratics can be equally bad to those regimes you just mentioned. It just takes most of the public in the US some time to catch up with the rest of the world on this.

And as a last point, yes, I would go to my doctor, and if he can't fix it or points in the direction of a specialist, THEN I would go to that doctor. How the hell should I know what I've caught if I just feel sick. I would check the diagnoses of the doctor as well though.
Re:You get what you pay for. by Anonymous Coward · 2004-11-30 13:37 · Score: 0

>while preserving the right to choose the people that provide your health care if you have the money to pay for their services

you know that's really stupid and not right.
you mustn't have to pay to get cured, if you know what I mean!!! or at least, a civil country must assure the health care equality!

Re:Try this by Anonymous Coward · 2004-11-26 06:35 · Score: 0

The doctors aren't helping him because he is making shit up. If he was as sick as he pretends to be, each and every one of those doctors would have had him hospitalized immediately. Its nice to see everyone who knows nothing sit here and tell us how all doctors are stupid and want him to die though.

Chaplet of The Divine Mercy for the sick & dyi by bluevector · 2004-11-26 06:39 · Score: 0, Offtopic

Should we also pray for Patrick? What are your thoughts on that aspect or method of helping someone?

From what I've been taught and come to believe:

The Chaplet of The Divine Mercy is an especially powerful prayer that can be offered to God for the sake of those who are sick and dying. [Note: Jesus == "The Divine Mercy"]

This prayer, in a moral sense, takes on special power when prayed in the presence of the Blessed Sacrament. Here is a directory for Catholic Churches and Chapels that have set times for or perpetual adoration of Jesus Christ really and bodily present in the Eucharist.

Here is a nice audio recording (RealAudio) that can be used to learn this prayer in song/chant form. Most people simply recite, rather than sing it.

There is also a popular "praise and worship" style sung-version of this prayer. Here is a sample recording; you can buy the full-recording on CD.

I have prayed this chaplet many times for sick, dying, despairing, addicted, and/or lonely family members, friends and strangers. Try it! The mercy of God is awesome!

Learn more about Saint Faustinaand The Divine Mercy Devotion, thanks to the Marians of the Immaculate Conception.

--
IC XC NIKA

Netcraft confirms! by Anonymous Coward · 2004-11-26 06:40 · Score: 0

Jesus is dying.

tropical fungus in B.C. unexpectedly: by Bootsy · 2004-11-26 06:40 · Score: 0

Nov. 24, 2004: "Killer fungus hits Vancouver Island; kills four, dozens of animals"
http://www.mytelus.com/news/article.do?a rticleID=1 774730&pageID=bc_archive

long shot but who knows

Get well soon, Patrick by MikeCapone · 2004-11-26 06:42 · Score: 1

I hope everything will turn out allright.

--
Treehugger? Treehugger... Treehugger!

No, it is completely wrong. by Anonymous Coward · 2004-11-26 06:43 · Score: 0

Juicing does NOTHING special at all. You do not rid your body of toxins based on what you eat, your body does that all the time on its own. You easily can get all your vitamins, minerals and other nutrients from a proper diet, there is nothing special about juice, except that you seriously lower your fibre intake, which is bad.

Speak to someone a little more knowledgable in human nutrition/digestion before believing this kind of crap. Its actually all very straightforward biochemistry, there's no magic in you.

Re:No, it is completely wrong. by jar240 · 2004-11-26 06:54 · Score: 1

Sure, you can read a lot of books and information on nutrition, and consult nutritional experts. Most of these opinions will be different, if not out and out oppositional.

Take someone's opinion and try it. Make a change; that's the only way to know. Otherwise, it's just academics and does nothing to help anyone anywhere.

[I wish I could edit my original post to format it more neatly, but alas, I used nary a <br> tag]

Chris

--
"You can drive out Nature with a pitchfork, but It always comes roaring back again." - Tom Waits

Re:Don't bash me for being insensitive, but by Anonymous Coward · 2004-11-26 06:51 · Score: 0

Not at all. Open source software was already in widespread use, BSD had been going strong for years already.

bunched up bicep... by What+is+a+number · 2004-11-26 06:51 · Score: 1

My brother has exactly that same thing - he did it playing sports. But not his total bicep - just part (some 'strands'? about an inch wide) and more on the side of the arm, not the front (so maybe not technically the bicep). Anyhow, it never bothered him so he didn't do anything about it. But front the start we both immediately assumed it was as you described - a piece of muscle ripped away from the bone and thus contracted into a ball near the other bone connection. Looked to me to be something easy to diagnose.

---
I type this every time.

Re:bunched up bicep... by chialea · 2004-11-27 04:04 · Score: 1

I did this to a finger (yes, not as exciting), and it wasn't hard tp diagnose from the rather exotic shape my finger took on.

It did cause my primary care physician to sqeal and say "never bring me one of those again!" (and send me down the hall to the orthopedist)

Lea

US Health Care by Ex-MislTech · 2004-11-26 06:54 · Score: 1

US Health Care has become less about care, and more about cash .

The HMO/PPO has rules and regs the Docs have to follow and like
another poster has said make the patient the adversary of the
Doctor .

When money becomes more important than lives, its time for a
reality check .

The Government screws up about everything it tries to run, but is
good at regulating it, example the power grid, til deregulation
came around, and it went downhill fast .

Power Companies left to their own devices sent the power grid
into a state of crap .

The medical field needs brutal, unrelenting, pervasive regulation
and investigation . HMO's and PPO's found to be blocking or
subverting this for cash would be charged with reckless
endangerment of life and grilled on national TV like a cheese melt.

But trying to have the government run a national health care system
will end up like alot of the other government run entities .

A huge bureaucratic kluge .

I also think it would be viable for a Medical Coop, a ppl run
cooperative health care system for the poor that doctors can donate
their time to for big tax breaks as charity .

Medical Coop for the poor and uninsured, and the insured get
corporate with government regulation on par with the best we can do.

Peace,
Ex-MislTech

--
google "32 trillion offshore needs IRS attention"

Re:Nutrients and Antibiotics... quack quack by Anonymous Coward · 2004-11-26 06:55 · Score: 0

Oh really? Ever wonder why the British soldiers where and still sometimes are refered to as "Limeys"?? It's because British sailors were suffering from scurvy while out on long trips at sea. When they changed their diets to include vitamin C, the scurvy was cured.
If suggesting a healthy diet is quackery, then are you suggesting a diet of Whoppers and fries or Big Macs? Give me a break. There is nothing better than a healthy diet for the body. Man is NOT as smart as we like to think we are. Why do we spend billions of dollars each year treating sickness and diseases that could have been easily preventable with proper diet and exercise? Are we really so damn smart? Until the arrogant mindset that we "know better" changes, more people will continue to drive their bodies straight into the sewer and wonder why on earth they are sick.

Offtopic: Gentoo uses RPM's now??? by 98neon · 2004-11-26 06:56 · Score: 1

Hmm... I never knew that Gentoo used RPM's... Perhaps you can point me to a document documenting this???

Re:The problem with Patrick... by Tribbin · 2004-11-26 06:56 · Score: 1

BMDFH

Anyone could explain this one for me?

Bastard meta-distribution from hell?

--
If you mod this up, your slashdot background will turn into a beautiful sunset!

Trolls live under bridges by Ex-MislTech · 2004-11-26 06:59 · Score: 1

pretty crappy troll gutless wonder .

--
google "32 trillion offshore needs IRS attention"

Use some Bayesian math by Anonymous Coward · 2004-11-26 07:01 · Score: 0

The sheer probability that the guy is a hypochondriac is simply much higher than the probability that he has this disease.

Do the math:

What are the prior odds that the guy actually has this disease? Say, one in 1,000?

Now, what are the odds that you have the disease, given you have all the symptoms? Say, 9/10?

Now Bayesian math will tell you that, given that he has all of the symptoms, the probability that he has this disease is... (approx) 9 out of 1000.

Now, throw in one doctor's diagnosis. If he had the disease, what are the odds that a doctor would catch it? Even if the odds are actually quite low, with each additional doctor he sees, with Bayesian rules the probability that they are all wrong becomes more and more remote.

Meanwhile, seeing a lot of doctors, not taking "no" for an answer, thinking he has an obscure disease which he knows quite a bit about... all raise the probability of hypochondria. Which had a much higher prior probability to begin with.

I hope that I'm not wrong, but if I was betting money I'd put more of it on hypochondria than the rare disease he thinks he has.

Now, there's also a third hypothesis: that the hospitals are doing just that, the he really does have this disease but he just sounds exactly like a hypochondriac, so they give him a token diagnosis and tell him to take a hike. It sounds cruel and cynical, but you have to remember that hypochondriacs are a huge drain on the system, taking away from people who really do need help, and hospitals are used to seeing them, and the odds as explicated above are simply much better that this is the case rather than vice versa.

He should test all three hypothesis. He should see a psychriatrist, he should try taking anti-depressants for a few weeks and see if that reduces his symptoms. The next time he goes to a doctor, he should level with him, and say, look, I know I sound crazy, I know sound like an HC, but I'm scared shitless and I don't know what else to do. Given that that's the case, what should I do? Or, he should ask them straight out if they think that he's HC. It's a fair question, I'm pretty sure they would have to tell you if you asked directly.

Like I said, he ought to test all three of these possibilities if he wants to put himself at ease. And, like I said, the Bayesian odds are simply agains the hypothesis that he really does have this rare disease.

Re:The problem with Patrick... by at_slashdot · 2004-11-26 07:06 · Score: 1

Pat, just don't get upset because people don't understand your situation, it's not worthy. Especially don't pay attention what you see here on slashdot, I read it at 4+ and still I see lot of bad posts, I made the mistake to switch to 0+ and I was appalled. Wish you best of luck! Get healthy!

--
"It is our choices, Harry, that show what we truly are, far more than our abilities." -- Prof. Dumbledore

Canada by Icephreak1 · 2004-11-26 07:07 · Score: 1

Patrick, come to Canada. Best and most innovative healthcare on the planet.

Re:Canada by daina · 2004-11-26 21:54 · Score: 1

This is a joke, right?
In Ontario, an alarming number of patients can't even find a family doctor. I asked my spouse's family doctor to take on my sister as a patient, since she was already seeing a member of the family and as a favour to me (IAAMD). No way. Practice full. My sister still can't find one.
Ontario just cut funding for essentially all remaining preventive health care: well baby care, eye exams (including Glaucoma screening), Physio and Chiropractic.
The only decent physicians still practicing in this province are either martyrs, masochists or insane. The rest of the good ones went south amid a giant sucking sound a few years ago.
Try waiting 6-9 months for an MRI, 12-18 months for most surgery. Death certificates are cheaper than hospital beds.
Do NOT come to Canada. Run screaming FROM Canada.
In summary: Ha Ha feckin' Ha!

Re:Chaplet of The Divine Mercy for the sick & by bluevector · 2004-11-26 07:16 · Score: 1

Whoops, I forgot to include the link to the on-line directory I made reference to:

Eucharistic adoration directory

--
IC XC NIKA

Compassion doesn't have anything to do with it. by mosel-saar-ruwer · 2004-11-26 07:22 · Score: 1

This sounds like that "Compassionate Conservatism" crap I keep hearing about.

Compassion doesn't have anything to do with it.

Doctors, like all people, come in bell curves, and most doctors fall somewhere between mediocre and dangerously incompetent. [And, as an aside, none of them give a rat's ass about your well-being: To them, you're just another slab of meat on the assembly line.]

You want mediocre to incompetent? Then purchase a random HMO plan with a typical copayment, and get stuck with a random doctor in a random ER in a random hospital in a random city in the United States the next time you experience chest pains.

You want outstanding? Then find the best medical school in your state [or region], find the best specialist on their staff, and schedule a visit. Or, better yet, discover his home address and go bang on his door.

Re:The problem with Patrick... by Anonymous Coward · 2004-11-26 07:24 · Score: 0

try bastard medical doctor from hell

Of course, and the GNU project by orasio · 2004-11-26 07:24 · Score: 1

started year ago, but it was the first GNU/Linux distro, which is the most popular choice even nowadays.

Re:hmm weird by Anonymous Coward · 2004-11-26 07:24 · Score: 0

First wish Patrick well. (and your mother)
been a slackware user/customer for quite
a while

Now to ASD: Just had it fixed myself a
couple of years ago. Depending upon the
size of the hole, open heart surgery may
not needed! there is a fairly new procedure
just "plugs" the hole. and if I remember
correctly the hole would have to be quite
large in order for this NOT to be an option.

Had the new procedure done and only had
to stay over night and 1 second after the
procedure you are fixed. So maybe your
mother should ask her doctor about it.

Take care

sounds like it could be lyme disease to me by Anonymous Coward · 2004-11-26 07:25 · Score: 0

http://www.netdoctor.co.uk/diseases/facts/lymedise ase.htm

of course I'm no doctor, but I know lots of people who have had similar problems a long time after being bitten by a tick and contracting lyme disease.

Re:The problem with Patrick... by Billly+Gates · 2004-11-26 07:27 · Score: 1

Seiously Pat you need to update your will if the unfortunate happens.

I would try to have your family sue the doctors for not treating you adaquitely and use your savings to fund it.

I know that sounds silly but if they are blowing you off they are infact contributing to your death. I just hope someone else later on in an unfortunate position wont be treated the same.

I can not imagine to even begin to go what you are going through. Its not fair and most unfortunate since I believe its preventable if the doctors were not so afraid of malpractice and kissing up to your HMO by not running unnecessary tests.

For now I would look to pay anyone yourself to go take the tests you think you need and only have your doctors interpret them. That should be legal right? Its so fustrating.

I wish there was something I could do even though I do not know but really we can all only offer you support. Hang in there and see if you can find a tech to do your tests and hand them back to your doctor.

--
http://saveie6.com/

Re:The problem with Patrick... by kusanagi374 · 2004-11-26 07:28 · Score: 1

I was discussing a little bit about your issue with my sister (since we're both studying biomedicine), and she raised up a question: have you checked for any sort of fungii? We're thinking about some sort of Aspergillus here, maybe Aspergillus fumigatus. It might be just a stupid guess or something far from what you have, but at this point nothing matters if you at least have a clue to follow.

It's Darph Bobo by Gothmolly · 2004-11-26 07:47 · Score: 0, Flamebait

And stop using your faggot clown powers.

--
I want to delete my account but Slashdot doesn't allow it.

MOD PARENT FUNNY (n/t) by Anonymous Coward · 2004-11-26 07:52 · Score: 0

n/t

Re:Jeez... by pyat · 2004-11-26 07:56 · Score: 1

I know someone who used to work as a radiographer (medical imaging technician in the new jargon). This reminds me of story she told about a doctor (not a radiologist of course) looking at an X-Ray of a clearly pregnant individual and asking whether it was of a man or a woman.

On spotting fractures, i'm surprised the tech didn't spot yours or your mom's since he/she would look at xrays all day. Often (perhaps not in these cases) some fractures can be hard to see, but a few days later they are much clearer due to the visibility of the healing response that goes on wherever bones are damaged.

Re:Try this by thegnu · 2004-11-26 07:57 · Score: 1

So if there's nothing wrong with him, why shouldn't he try holistic remedies? The problem, if there's nothing wrong with him, is pumping him full of antibiotics.

And isn't your statement about people who know nothing giving advice a little self-referential? Or do you know everything?

--
Please stop stalking me, bro.

Re:The problem with Patrick... by volkerdi · 2004-11-26 08:07 · Score: 3, Interesting

I lived in a house in Moorhead, MN from 1988 until 1999 when I moved to California. Shortly thereafter the ceiling in the living room caved in following a storm exposing 6 inches of Aspergillus growth. The house was sealed off by the EPA and had to have major cleanup.

In spite of this, I think at most this is a contributing factor. If I had an active aspergillus infection that would be a lot easier to find.

Oh, the fuel oil furnace in the house was also found to have a cracked heat exchanger that was allowing fuel oil vapor into the ventilation system. The ducts were choked with soot.

Atomidine by bluefoxlucid · 2004-11-26 08:16 · Score: 1

3 drops of Cayce Choice Atomidine (1% iodine dissolved in alcohol, not 1% iodine-trichloride in water like the Baar stuff) on the back of the tongue for 2 days; break for a week; repete.

The iodine in alcohol is powerful stuff. It fires up the immune system or something, so as long as you don't use too much (i.e. don't cause iodine poisoning), you should be able to clear out major infections.

Review of Atomidine

--
Support my political activism on Patreon.

Re:Atomidine by Inthewire · 2004-11-26 19:32 · Score: 1

"We eat so many shrimp, I got iodine poisoning"
--Three Six Mafia, Sippin' on some Syrup

--

Writers imply. Readers infer.

Re:The problem with Patrick... by kusanagi374 · 2004-11-26 08:19 · Score: 1

What the fuck!! You do know that heat is fungii's best friend, don't you? Plus, you have probably been exposed to the aspergillus for quite a long time, and it stayed inside your lungs for a good while, kept "hostage" by your immune system. You've probably gotten sick/stressed, and the immune system got weak and the aspergillus was free to do its damage.

Feel free to do your own google research about "aspergillosis". I hope I'm on the right track!

Hogwash! Quack by nietsch · 2004-11-26 08:20 · Score: 1

While it doesn't do much wrong (and therefore does something right because you think it will) but the reasoning is complete and utter bullshit.
The amount of pesticides on fruit will not tax your liver, or peel the fruit if you don't trust it. Fresh apple juice will erode your teeth because of it's acidity. the enzymes in fresh juice do nothing to digest it, and antibiotics do not destroy your immune system.
The basic advise (get good food and some time outside) is ok, but the reasoning is totally off.

--
This space is intentionally staring blankly at you

Re:The problem with Patrick... by Anonymous Coward · 2004-11-26 08:46 · Score: 0

There are two types of doctors. When you tell them how many doctors you've seen recently:

1. they think you're crazy

2. they think you have an unusual and rare problem.

You seem to keep bumping into 1s.

One more thing. It's not only doctors. You'll find this in every field. That's because degrees are awarded not based on one's ability to think, but the ability to memorize.

I've been sick. by Anonymous Coward · 2004-11-26 08:46 · Score: 0

For almost 4 months I had fever on a daily basis. Doctors I visited never got a clue of what I had. The best one said I probably had typhoid fever and that it was undetectable at the point I changed doctors (out of despair).

Well, that doctor (wisely) chose not to prescribe me any medicine, because the wrong antibiotic would only weaken me and get all my non-killed bacterias stronger.

I had enormous difficulty just to walk on plain ground, and even got that tunnel vision (everything gets darker in the peripheral vision, like when BugsBunny or Woody Woodpecker ends).

My body got unbalanced because of constant high fever. I had very bad mood in consequence: depression as a result of bad perspective _and_ chemical balance problems. In the end, I figured I'd survive if I just resist enough, so that my body would win.

And, eventually, that happened, though I had many recurring events for many years.

After that, I met a wonderful woman, married and now have a beautiful very curious daughter.

I sincerely wish you, Patrick, this same good luck.

It's sincere because I've been where you are and am now here to tell the story.

Re:The problem with Patrick... by krbvroc1 · 2004-11-26 08:58 · Score: 2, Interesting

http://www.aspergillus.man.ac.uk/languages/indexho me_lang.htm?english.htm~main

Re:The problem with Patrick... by Anonymous Coward · 2004-11-26 09:17 · Score: 0

As a student of biomedicine, you should probably be aware that the plural of "fungus" only has one "i" in it.

Re:The problem with Patrick... by kusanagi374 · 2004-11-26 09:21 · Score: 1

Whatever, that's not important. English is NOT my native language and in portuguese we don't use the latin expressions, we use the portuguese "fungo", plural "fungos".

Instead of bothering with grammar errors, it would be wise to use your intelligence to help Pat, maybe?

tumor by Anonymous Coward · 2004-11-26 09:47 · Score: 0

Kid - It might be a tumor.
Pat - It's not a tumor!

Where's the evidence? by ponos · 2004-11-26 09:51 · Score: 2, Informative

It's usually very hard to put a diagnosis without proper data. In this case, even though I'm currently preparing for USMLE-like examinations (you are presented with some data and you try to make a diagnosis), I find it very hard to trust Pat's "clues" because I don't know what is real and what is *his* idea of a diagnosis.

As a doctor I really like to hear my patients tell me actual facts and not their interpretations. E.g. "I have fever and sore throat" and NOT "I have the flu". Infectious diseases that may present with fever and sore throat are many (ranging from primary HIV infection to infectious mononucleosis to common cold) and it's highly unlikely that the patient has considered all of them. By focusing on a possible "diagnosis" the patient may ignore other signs that would be useful to the doctor.

I could list quite a few diagnoses that would fit Pat's description, but guessing is quite useless, especially in important health matters. Maybe some doctors did not follow proper standards of care but the fact that an assumed serious condition did not alarm so many of them is quite suspicious.

As a simple advice (I hope Pat is reading this!): IF you have fever (defined typically as over 38.3 deg. Celsius) plus a NEW audible cardiac wheeze (not mitral prolapse, which is quite different) you should be admitted to the hospital on the basis of an assumed diagnosis of bacterial endocarditis (unless *proven* otherwise). Bacterial endocarditis usually develops on PRE-existing pathological conditions (e.g. old rheumatic fever, IV drug use). Typically, cardiac ultrasound (why don't you go have one, if you are so worried?) will give very useful clues. Examination of the retina and blood cultures (at least three) are also necessary. If no signs of bacterial infection are found, several viral pathogens can cause pericardial inflammation but I can only remember Coxsackie and echoviridae off the top of my head. Viruses usually cause milder disease.

Finally, please do not trust the web, google, medline, nih. These are excellent data sources, but you are unable to properly interpret what you read without proper training. You can't just open "harrison's internal medicine" and hope to acquire the skills to make a diagnosis in a few hours/days/weeks. Find a good doctor and trust him. Sure, some people say that they correctly diagnosed their condition, even though the doctors where wrong. It happens, doctor's make mistakes. But on 99.99% of cases, your doctor knows better than you.

P.

Re:Where's the evidence? by RealBorg · 2004-11-26 11:55 · Score: 1

When I was a child I received severely inappropriate treatment at several occasions: codeine drops against allergy induced cough, phenylmercure borate for fever blisters, a tooth inlay implanted in my gums. Do you still wonder why I don't trust medics anymore and prefer to conduct a web search for every diagnosis and medication?
Re:Where's the evidence? by ponos · 2004-11-26 12:37 · Score: 1

When I was a child I received severely inappropriate treatment at several occasions: codeine drops against allergy induced cough, phenylmercure borate for fever blisters, a tooth inlay implanted in my gums. Do you still wonder why I don't trust medics anymore and prefer to conduct a web search for every diagnosis and medication?

It seems you need to find better doctors. Sometimes what you pay is what you get. You can get top-notch health care in the US, if you can afford it. If you want to do web searches for everything, by all means do. It is your health after all. Just don't be too eager to assume that you can do better than a properly trained doctor (we doctors have discovered the web, too).
P.
Re:Where's the evidence? by qadmon · 2004-11-26 12:54 · Score: 1

This is really lame.

Back when this country was being created and developed one wonders how the pioneers managed to survive without an ER and all the wonderful medical 'industry'?

Shit. A buddy of mine fell over in the field(running a combine). He was youngish..about 33 and had a mild
cardiac incident.

He spent one night in the hospital. He was billed
$35,000.00 The man has no insurance and if he did it would have been full of deductables, co-pay s and all the rest.

Who can afford this type of treatment you propose? Only the dwindling few with insurance that is sufficient to not bankrupt them.

Even with my fairly decent BC/BS my wife last episode with a vaginal non-cancerous slight tumor cost me over $7,000 and that was just a one day out-patient surgery. I received bills for months and couldn't even see my dining room table for months due to the non-relenting showering cascade of bills.

Sometime the medical profession is just full of greedy businessmen who are just as bad as the greedy CEOs and Execs who are taking this country slowly apart into a living nightmarish hell.

Doc why don't you get a fscking clue!!!!

You ARE the PROBLEM and the DISEASE.

Clue here: IF it wasn't a business how come I see so many ads for all the bullshit latest medical pill(when I do happen to pass the onerous TV)?

The Vigara ads are enough to sicken one. All the rest are just business as usual. Take this , take that, try this blue pill, then try that green one.

They really don't know what you have but are quite willing to take every penny you have as they fruitlessly 'practice' medicine.
Re:Where's the evidence? by ponos · 2004-11-27 01:08 · Score: 2, Interesting

He spent one night in the hospital. He was billed $35,000.00 The man has no insurance and if he did it would have been full of deductables, co-pay s and all the rest. Who can afford this type of treatment you propose? Only the dwindling few with insurance that is sufficient to not bankrupt them.

I'm really sorry to hear that and I understand your bitterness. However, this is not true everywhere. Why don't you have a look at what happens in countries like Sweden, Germany and Switzerland or Canada? Just because health care is unbelievably expensive in the US (I live in the EU) it does not mean that the medical profession or medicine itself is corrupt. Doctors operate within the rules created by the system/government. If business is what you want, business you'll get. My colleagues here work 80-hour weeks for ~1400$ a month because this is the law. In my country it is forbidden by the law to advertise medications to the general public (besides very few over-the-counter drugs like Aspirin). Why don't you ask your politicians to implement a different health care system that ensures a lowest common denominator of health care for everyone, if that's what you want?
Bonus tip: Maybe you should try doctor "shopping" abroad? I'm sure you could get very low prices in places like former soviet block countries. Plane tickets are cheap.
P.
Re:Where's the evidence? by russint · 2004-11-27 03:20 · Score: 1

If you want to go "doctor shopping", Cuba might be a very good idea. It's closer then the former soviet union and the health care is top stuff.

--
^^

Virus, bacteria ... which is it? by dougmc · 2004-11-26 09:59 · Score: 1

Personally, I'm highly skeptical of all of this. Sure, I believe he's sick. And I hope he gets better.

But I really don't buy the idea that he cannot get medical care without appealing to the computing community. [and yes, I have read his postings]

Previously, he was asking for a doctor who could prescribe strong antibiotics. And it appears that he has gotten them. I see the word `viral' in the /. story, but his post doesn't say anything about viruses.

People, bacteria and viruses are very different. Bacteria can be treated with antibiotics, but antibiotics have no effect on viruses. You might get antibiotics if you're really sick and the doctor thinks you have a virus, but that's just because 1) he realizes that may be wrong about it being a virus and 2) while you're sick with a virus, a bacterial infection may creep up on you. (And then there's the fungii, which tend to creep up when you're on strong antibiotics, as most women on antibiotics or parents with infants on antibiotics have noticed.)

(And no, I'm not a doctor.)

Re:MOD PARENT UP! by agraupe · 2004-11-26 10:00 · Score: 1

I'll tell you why: because this person, who may or may not die, has had an extensive time (compared to a child) to live his life, and my guess is, since he is a minor celebrity, it hasn't been all that bad. I think many children wish they could live to see the ripe old age this man has attained. Also: here is a fact of life: people die!!! If you haven't figured out that man is a mortal creature, it behooves you to do so. Given that approximately 30,000 children die in Africa every day from hunger (not to mention other things), I think it is safe to say that if this man does or doesn't die won't make a huge difference on humanity. We seriously have to stop taking Linux so seriously. If you knew the guy, and has some sort of relationship with him, that's one thing. But if you feel sorry for him just because he has a disease, you would be a very depressed person if you weren't a hypocrite.

My experiences and the Medical 'Industry' by qadmon · 2004-11-26 10:10 · Score: 2, Interesting

I am 66 yrs old. I have never been to a hospital
except for minor cuts. I do not take any prescribed
medications. I have checkups on occassion with a 125/70 BP , 65 heart rate and other good vital signs.

I pay very close attention to my body. I do not trust the medical industry(not a profession).

When I become ill enough to not find a simple solution then I will die. I can not now afford to pay the attendant medical costs for anything beyond a medium illiness.

I am retired from a Fortune 100 corporation as a once programmer. My benefits are worthless.

I will enjoy what remains and the devil take the hindmost.

Slackware was the very first Linux distro I installed, using Pats book with the attendant cd/diskette. This was way way back.

I wish him the best. My brother died last year. The medical industry basically did him in. My wifes uncles was allowed to perish due to the same problems experienced by Pat.

His right lung adhered to his chest cavity. When they operated for a small spot on the xray they discovered this condition. He went downhill from there. He received the worst care and treatment I have ever observed in my life. (How did I observe this? My wife has had 8 major operations and takes massive loads of prescribed medications. She is much younger than I.

In the past I have had to have her roommate restrained from attempting to set her bed on fire. I have had to check her out of hospitals where the case was at the criminal level.

Summary: Eat right, live right, and the rest of the Scout Oath. Listen to your body. It will tell you what is right and wrong.

Oh yes, I do go into my woods and harvest wild ginseng. I do always drink appropiate amounts of alcohol. I never watch TV. I don't belong to organized religion and I NEVER listen to Rap or Hip-Hop.

NOTE: A lot of this is TIC(tongue in cheek) but a lot is also true.

Kudos Pat. Live long and prosper. I will offer a prayer to GAOTU.

Hmm by Anonymous Coward · 2004-11-26 10:11 · Score: 0

Can we send him to a to a traditional chinese med clinic and convince him to NOT diag his own problems. Yes this is a good preventive if that fails for what ever reason three steps are important: if you have a good CAM clinic neer that has "chinese" AND western trained doctors GO. Then: take take the chinese med. doctors tonic mixture AND the western medical doctors meds.

He does raise a important issue re: antobiotics in that if you select for the flora wich resist say ampercin, your screwed. If if if if you take care of yourself, take immuno boosters, rest, and SLOW down for about a week (or more), sure the downtime sucks, and the tonics they'll prescibe (and or even the bodywork) may taste horrid. You increase your chances of recovery.

Heat is a obvious sign of energy imbalance. Exhastian, is common for imbalances as are many of the other signs.

You will recover lots faster going to see to a CAM clinic and regenerating, best of luck

Re:The problem with Patrick... by AeiwiMaster · 2004-11-26 10:14 · Score: 1

Hi Patrick

I have posted some suggestions for you, but the slashdot crowd did not like concrete alternative suggestions, so unless you read at -2 you woundn't see it ;-)

The papimi device have the following centers in california why don't you test it out.

Adverse Reaction to Fluoroquinolones? by bStrom · 2004-11-26 10:16 · Score: 1

I had an adverse reaction to Fluoroquinolones (the family of drugs of which Ciprofloxacin is part). The symptoms Patrick describes are similar to those I experienced. Patrick, if you're reading this, you might want to check into this. Might want to check http://www.fqresearch.org/ out and stop taking Cipro.

--
Try eMusic. DRM free, legal, MP3 downloads.

Re:The problem with Patrick... by bStrom · 2004-11-26 10:25 · Score: 1

I posted this in another place in the thread, but I wanted to put it here, too:

I had an adverse reaction to Fluoroquinolones (the family of drugs of which Ciprofloxacin is part). The symptoms Patrick describes are similar to those I experienced. Patrick, if you're reading this, you might want to check into this. Might want to check http://www.fqresearch.org/ out and stop taking Cipro.

--
Try eMusic. DRM free, legal, MP3 downloads.

Orthomolecular medecine by Anonymous Coward · 2004-11-26 10:33 · Score: 0

Get ascorbic acid, swallow as much as your bowels can handle in fractioned doses (that may be anywhere from 3,000mg to 30,000mg a day). If that doesn't work, get someone to give you intraveinous sodium ascorbate. Take other vitamins as well.

The mainstream consensus is that AA is harmless. The minority view (of orthomolecular practitioners) is that it works wonders. Therefore you can try it even if you don't believe it.

You may google on "pauling orthomolecular".

Don't believe the vitamin scare stories. Only very few vitamins (mostly A, D and time-released niacin) can be harmful in *large* doses (and the
harm is nothing compared to what slightly overdosing on paracetamol can do to you). AA is definitely *not*, repeat *not* harmful. AA is panacea, period.

Different Advice by ariux · 2004-11-26 10:39 · Score: 1

Patrick,

From reading your story, I would guess you've sometimes pushed yourself to continue with normal activities (like marathon linux hacking and cross-country road trips!) while you're sick. Lots of geeks do this kind of thing because their love for their work can eclipse their best judgment - and since you maintain the best distro there is, I'll bet your love for your work is uncommonly strong.

Whatever is happening in your body, your body's own immune system is probably your most powerful weapon against it. That weapon is powered by warmth, rest, and an absence of self-imposed task pressure.

If you're really as sick as you sound, you probably need to get away from your work for a while, stay in bed a lot, keep warm, avoid travel and stressful activities, eat easy-to-digest, nourishing foods, and generally rest and recuperate. Take the time to catch up on Larry Niven's latest novels or something. And don't go back to work until you really feel better.

Obviously, plain old rest is no substitute for medical treatment (particularly where heart trouble may be involved), but taking it real easy for a while would at least be supportive of whatever course(s) of treatment/recovery you're attempting.

Happy Thanksgiving, and be well. I and my 3 slack boxes are rooting for your recovery ;)

Re:The problem with Patrick... by nathanh · 2004-11-26 10:57 · Score: 1

To everyone who has offered well-wishes, thank you!

Several of the comments in this story are from people with a similar experience. They had chronic illnesses that weren't recognised by multiple doctors over many years. In one case, it took 27 years before an intern noticed that the guys kidneys were diseased. It really drives home the fact that nobody knows your body better than you do. If you feel sick, then you are sick! Doctors aren't omniscient and they make mistakes. I'd trust your word over theirs, any day of the week.

You hang in there Pat. My best wishes for your quick recovery.

It's a damn shame by HBI · 2004-11-26 11:14 · Score: 1

The feckless crowd here - how many will appreciate the wisdom of your words before it is too late?

That's the 'fair' they should be striving for. If everyone is ambitious and responsible, the world is fair.

--
HBI's Law: Frequency of calling others Nazis is directly correlated with the likelihood of the accuser being Communist.

Your 'red flags' comment sucks by Anonymous Coward · 2004-11-26 11:16 · Score: 0

I didn't like your 'multiple red flags' comment.

Don't doctors realise that, while most people don't know anything about medicine, they have been living in their particular body their whole lives and are a little more used to it than you are? So when someone has something to say, why don't you shut up and listen?

When a person comes in with a distressing problem they have never experienced before they might not be at their best. This however does not mean that they are idiots and that everything they say is wrong due to hypochondria.

Re:The problem with Patrick... by lazypenguingirl · 2004-11-26 11:37 · Score: 1

You have to keep fighting them. You know there is something wrong, and you have to be persistant. I was diagnosed with systemic lupus erythamatosis ("Available now with kidney involvement!") at age 18, rheumatoid arthritis at 20, and polycystic ovary syndrome at 21. I'm 23 now, on 9 prescription medications including chemotherapy drugs and strong immunosuppressants, and have learned from all of this that only you can be your own best advocate. The lupus, they screwed around with and just "observed," and kept doing redundant tests, looking at abnormal results, and watching me waste away until I was sleeping 18 hours a day, couldn't bend my joints, and was covered with bizarre rashes. FINALLY, I found a rheumatologist who was sickened by my previous treatment, and was able to work with me and get me onto the meds I needed. With the PCOS, I gained 30 pounds in 10 days, and then another 30 pounds in the subsequent three months. I kept going to different doctors and insisting this was not a medical problem, "but we can send you to a nutritionist." Bullshit. It took me about nine doctors before I found one who looked at me and said, "I believe you, this is a medical problem, and we WILL get to the bottom of it." And sure enough she did, she got me on as a patient under a very well known endocrinologist, and in a few months after that, my weight is back to how it was in high school. If I had given up and believed one, I'd still be miserable with myself and constantly in pain (because the added weight was REALLY messing with my joints and energy). So, as I said, you need to keep fighting. You are the only one who can fight for you. I will be keeping you in my thoughts. Please get well, don't give up, and good luck finding a doctor who can help you. Keep us updated, there are a lot of us who care. Very loyal slackware user, lazypenguingirl

Re:The problem with Patrick... by Anonymous Coward · 2004-11-26 12:12 · Score: 1, Informative

I have not taken any Fluoroquinolones in over a week.

The problem wasn't responding to them anyway, so there wasn't much point. There _has_ been some improvement on amoxicillin and amox/clav, so I think there's something to that approach. BTW, actinomycetes responds to penicillin type drugs but fluoroquinolones don't do a thing for it.

I have only been on antibiotics since 11/6, was switched from Cipro to Levoquin, and then amox/clav. All prescribed.

Nobody has made any effort to culture anything yet, by the way. Is this standard medical procedure? Not that they'd be able to at this point with all the nuke bombs that have been set off.

Speaking as a paramedic (see also: Munchausen's) by holt_rpi · 2004-11-26 12:27 · Score: 1

I sympathize with the people who have posted and criticized the "medical establishment" and the inefficiency of HMOs, yada yada. While a valid criticism, and with the caveat that I have not seen him as a patient, I don't think you can defend his behavior by distracting from it (by attacking the healthcare system in the US).

In life, I have learned that the most important things are to:
1.) Know what you know,
2.) Know what you don't know, and
3.) Know the difference.

I think farther down the thread, someone posted a comment that intelligence in one area does not translate into experience in another, but that frequently, confidence remains high and people will refuse to second-guess themselves if they're convinced they're right.

Frankly, I think that's what's going on here.

Mr. V is convinced that he has some horrible no-name disease that tons of MDs haven't been able to figure out. He hangs on the details of all sorts of medical tests and lab results, searching for something that might not be within normal limits. He might have mitral valve issues or something, but obviously nothing too serious or they would have put him through a cardiac catheterization.

I am not a physician. However, in working in the medical field, I have seen TONS of coworkers self-diagnose, self-medicate, and overtreat symptoms of one thing because they felt they knew best and would just save themselves a trip to the doctor. One thing I have learned in both "having medical knowledge" and "not being a physician" is that when it comes to my own care, sticking with one primary care doc is the best plan. Doc-shopping for one who will treat your symptoms the way you want them to SCREAMS that you are a hypochondriac.

Indeed, the fact that he's had lots of people do blood tests while nobody has done truly invasive tests (or, as the MD here noted, put in a chest tube or anything) indicates that Mr. V, while a talented programmer and software maintainer, is NOT a physician and should stop jumping from MD to MD, trying to find one to tell him "Yes! Yes! You have a bizarre disease that I can treat with THIS DRUG."

Patrick Volkerding sounds like the kind of patient I've dealt with who insists that they're having an asthma attack. When you listen to their lungs, they are clear as a bell and have no wheezes, and their SpO2 is 99-100%. However, give them a little albuterol and oxygen through a nebulizer and suddenly they claim to be cured. CURED!

Don't take this as flamebait, but Mr. Volkerding does not need another infectious disease specialist. He needs to be evaluated by a psychiatrist. Until he can demonstrate that he's been to one, I would encourage the slashdot editors to stop posting stories about him because YOU ARE ONLY ENCOURAGING AND ENABLING HIS HYPOCHONDRIAC BEHAVIOR.

MOD PARENT UP by Anonymous Coward · 2004-11-26 12:47 · Score: 0

This guy SCREAMS hypochondriac!

Dude, get help. Don't go to another ER. Get thee to a counselor.

novo-pheniram by crabpeople · 2004-11-26 13:17 · Score: 1

zyrtec is reactine in canada. its specifically meant for non drowsieness. what you want is novo-pheniram. 5mg pills and it completlely gets rid of all alergies. all of them. it doesnt keep you up, infact sometimes puts you to sleep (tho not me). for 10$ CAN you get about 100 pills.

it also doesnt dry you out like reactine/zyrtec does. generics rock!

--
I'll just use my special getting high powers one more time...

Re:hmm weird by Anonymous Coward · 2004-11-26 13:33 · Score: 0

yeah my mom doesnt trust it though.. it was FDA approved in 2001.. her cardiologist said if it was her shed go with open heart.. plus my mom has good insurance right now because my brother is 16 and its some state healthcare thing.. the heart surgery would be permanent, if the implant fails in 3 years my mom might not have insurance to have it removed/fixed

Sometimes you have to give up on the doctors. by Anonymous Coward · 2004-11-26 13:33 · Score: 0

If you have just the right doctor for a particular problem - or one who for some reason is willing to devote himself to finding a solution no matter what (which unfortunately is rare these days) - and stick with that one doctor long enough, you can get through something this serious. Changing doctors frequently is about the worst thing you can do though - every one will start over being very conservative and hoping it is something not too serious, unwilling to try extreme measures until that is proven wrong.

If he's sure enough of what's wrong, and the doctors are moving too slow, and he knows the proper remedy, he should obtain the necessary drugs however he can - send someone to Mexico if necessary.

Linus says take Vitamin C by Anonymous Coward · 2004-11-26 13:39 · Score: 0

Last winter I took 10,000mg every morning after awakening and 10,000mg in the evening. I prefer to take ten of the 1000mg pure unbuffered ascorbic acid pills on an empty stomach. Vitamin C can fix a wide variety of ailments. Check this out:
http://lpi.oregonstate.edu/infocenter/vitamins/vit aminC/
Be sure the problem is not environmental by moving around or staying in another city for a short time. Chemical and biological agents can have similar affects.

Too much is toxic for liver and kidneys by Geist3 · 2004-11-26 14:00 · Score: 1

See:
http://www.qualityessentialoils.com/proddeta il.php ?prod=OREWL

Re:Too much is toxic for liver and kidneys by puzzled · 2004-11-26 17:45 · Score: 1

Its nice to know, but what a crappy page - how *much* is toxic? If you're taking a single drop, which is what I do, and the toxic frontier is 50ml ... well ... WTF do you do with information like that?

*sigh* more research needed on this one and its true of most natural stuff - lots of studies showing it to be good, but the outer bounds are not well defined.

--
I am very easy to get along with, but I don't have time to waste being nice to people who are being stupid. -Theo
Re:Too much is toxic for liver and kidneys by Geist3 · 2004-11-27 00:57 · Score: 1

This might be a starting point for more quantitative info on oregano oil: Still no proportions for constituents: carvacrol, thymol, etc.

How does one utilize the system? by mjprobst · 2004-11-26 14:36 · Score: 1

Sometimes I'm quite confused on _how_ to utilize the system at hand. It often takes someone with just the right kind of emotional and social skills to frame things in ways that a doctor will understand and take seriously. I tend to not feel emotional about my medical problems, and to not get help for serious problems because I honestly don't emote intensely about my pain and symptoms. That's just one example. It's not easy for eveyrone to utilize the system.

One thing being tried now in Canada, that I think is a great idea in cases like this, is a kind of medical coach that can help one in communicating with doctors and working through towards a solution. Perhaps he needs to find someone emotionally unattached to the problem, yet able to communicate effectively, and let that person filter communications for him. I know that this benefits me on occasion.

Re:How does one utilize the system? by Nurseman · 2004-11-27 07:10 · Score: 1

Perhaps he needs to find someone emotionally unattached to the problem, yet able to communicate effectively, and let that person filter communications for him. I know that this benefits me on occasion.
He prevously stated that his father had friends in the medical field. That is what you need, someone who knows you, knows what is wrong with you, and can go with you, and ask the questions that you forget, remember the answers that you don't. I read somewhere that patients forget more than 90% of discharge instructions. This is a big problem of treatment. Patients for whatever reason do not follow up with discharge planning.

--
Save a Life. Donate Blood. Please.

Re:Speaking as a paramedic (see also: Munchausen's by WhiteDeath · 2004-11-26 14:40 · Score: 1

Tell that to my sister who has no hearing in her right ear because we stuck to our local GP.

If he had simply realized the colour of the puss was wrong for what he was diagnosing, it would have been a lot simpler.

Re:The problem with Patrick... by peripatetic_bum · 2004-11-26 14:55 · Score: 1

HI pat. I've written some posts on this.

anyway, two question.

1. do you really have a pleural effusion?
2. I know you mentioned the chest xray but you only mentioned pleural thickening which you cant tap. I think you are asking for a pleural needle biopsy which can pop your lung and leave you in serious problems, hence why the docs dont do it.
3. When you say a recent fever and new MVP, I geuss you should get an echocardiogram, but with a low sed rate and the fact your are still typing makes me doubt you have endocarditis, you would be calling it quits and heading for an ER right now.

Lets chat

--

Sigs are dangerous coy things

I'd rather go broke than die rich by Anonymous Coward · 2004-11-26 15:27 · Score: 0

If I got to be rich once, I can do it again.

I doubt I'd get that second chance with that dying thing.

And the last damn thing I is some place with "free" healthcare because the only way it couled be "free" is if the government ran it. Have you ever noted any government that ran any large project well? Neither have I.

SOcialists make me sick: it's nothing more than the politics of envy used to destroy the successful.

Let's apply socialism to musicians: force U2 to spend 60% of their time trying to teach music to tone-deaf retirees who can't tell the difference between music and two trains colliding.

Let's apply socialism to sports: Michael Jordan now has to spend 72% of his time trying to teach basketball to the Munchkin cast of "Wizard of Oz".

The only damn way to ensure equal outcomes is to hold back those who would otherwise be more successful.

Why do socialists/leftists/progressives/communists think that what would be absurd in all human endeavors except for economics or finance should work just fine when applied there?

Re:I'd rather go broke than die rich by protohiro1 · 2004-11-26 19:32 · Score: 1

Why do conservatives assume that their pesonal success is 100% a result of their own effort and that those who aren't succesful can be blamed for their own failures? Oh, and by the way, your analogy sucks.

--
Sig removed because it was obnoxious
Re:I'd rather go broke than die rich by jlehtira · 2004-12-03 00:34 · Score: 1

You obviously have no idea what you're talking about. Also, you missed the point of middle way mentioned earlier. Soviet Russia is an example of an authoritarian socialist regime. Authoritarian doesn't necessarily have anything to do with socialist. Authoritarian is what USA is going towards now, which is very alarming.

From each according to his ability, to each according to his need is fundamentally a good idea. Not the whole truth, we do need all kinds of rewards to boost motivation. That's where our beloved middle way steps in. Food, health and lodging to each, taxes (progressively) from each will solve some problems and allow nations to concentrate on other things. Also, current socialism is not about equal outcomes, it's about equal opportunities. If someone is very talented, it makes sense to keep him healthy and educate him well, even when he or his parents couldn't afford it themselves. And if someone is unemployed, it makes sense to keep him in an acceptable condition for future employment.

The ones who are more successful now owe their success to the humanity. None of us, alone in Siberia without tools, would be living in luxury, eating well or staying healthy.

Aye, world ain't fair, but we can make it more fair. I find it essential for world peace. Not the Stalin-like socialism, but the Gandhi-like variation.

Asbestos Fibers? [mod up] by Anonymous Coward · 2004-11-26 15:43 · Score: 0

He could have been exposed to some asbestos fibers.

Re:Speaking as a paramedic (see also: Munchausen's by antirename · 2004-11-26 16:47 · Score: 1

If you're really a doctor, I humbly submit that you are full of shit. Or you're just a bad doctor. I've had one doctor tell me "you strained your back" and the next one tell me "you need emergency surgery on your kidneys". The problem was a stab wound to the back. I knew that, and I know where my fucking kidneys are. I actually used the Encyclopedia Brittanica with it's "see through person" pages to find what I thought was damaged. The first doctor thought that was really funny. The second doctor, who did figure out that there was a fucking problem, told me that I would be dead or on a machine by 25 if I didn't let him remove the damaged kidney. He also gave me 25% odds for recovery after surgery, and 50% for survival (lots of blood loss after you cut a kidney out, apparently). I just ticked over 30, and I'm still here. Yeah, it hurts, but I've gotten used to that. They had me on so many painkillers that I felt irresponsible even thinking about driving. These were military doctors, mind you, so they give out painkillers by the buttload if they think that they are in over their head. You get a prescription for tylenol3, with six refills. Except it's really unlimited. You just go back for another six. If you're fucked up all the time, you won't come back and bother them, will you? But you really can't drive like that, at least I couldn't. I gave up on hospitals, and doctors I don't know, trying to follow some girls a friend knew to a restaurant in Jacksonville FL on I95. I was on a sportbike, they were in a Honda, and were going about 110. They were driving like idiots. I had a sportbike, but didn't know where I was going, and had an epiphany: I'm not cured. I am impaired, though, and I'm going to pull over and find a hotel. I flushed all the codiene down the hotel toliet and now I just live with the pain. Of course, the army destroyed my medical records, so none of this comes up when my company changes PPOs. I don't like pain, and I know that the medical problems will get me in the end, but I would rather know that then deal with an MD who really doesn't give a shit. Oh yeah, I got my own doctor... out of system or whatever, but someone I know.

Re:Jeez... by antirename · 2004-11-26 16:54 · Score: 1

No, they probably did spot it and just didn't tell you since that would have cost your employer's health care actual money. Painkillers are cheaper.

origin of the term "quack" by nido · 2004-11-26 17:24 · Score: 1

The AMA had something to do with it...

The American Medical Association (AMA) was founded in 1847 around two propositions: one, all doctors should have a "suitable education" and two, a "uniform elevated standard of requirements for the degree of M.D. should be adopted by all medical schools in the U.S." [1] In the days of its founding AMA was much more open--at its conferences and in its publications--about its real goal: building a government-enforced monopoly for the purpose of dramatically increasing physician incomes. It eventually succeeded, becoming the most formidable labor union on the face of the earth.

100 years of Medical Robery (source of above quotation)
Real Medical Freedom (part II)

The bastards at the AMA came up with the term "quack" to slander chiropractors.

The grandparent poster is on to something, though I'm not so sure about the Raw Apples part... Edgar Cayce (noted 20th century "American Christian Mystic") said that apples should be cooked, unless you go on a "raw-apple" cleanse for a couple of days. See The Edgar Cayce Manual for Health through Drugless Therapy. For more on juicing for wellness, search for "Gerson Therapy".

--
Learn the rules so you know how to break them properly.
www.teslabox.com

Re:origin of the term "quack" by Mr2001 · 2004-11-26 23:23 · Score: 1

The bastards at the AMA came up with the term "quack" to slander chiropractors.

Uh.... "slander"? Wake up, pal. Chiropractors are great for relieving pain, but some people make wild, crazy claims about what they can do. The chiropractors who claim to be able to treat cancer by cracking your back are quacks. The ones who are honest about what their techniques can do are not quacks.

And the AMA is not your enemy.

--
Visual IRC: Fast. Powerful. Free.

Re:The problem with Patrick... by bStrom · 2004-11-26 22:14 · Score: 1

The Fluoroquinolone problem lasts a lot longer than a week. I was feeling horrible (couldn't sleep, always aching, always tired, depressed) for over nine months as a result of taking Cipro less than two months. I'm not saying this is what the problem is - just that it might be considered.

--
Try eMusic. DRM free, legal, MP3 downloads.

Re:The problem with Patrick... by bStrom · 2004-11-26 22:16 · Score: 1

I thought you said somewhere that you'd been on antibiotics a while back for what was thought to be bronchitis?

--
Try eMusic. DRM free, legal, MP3 downloads.

What's going on here? by EachLennyAPenny · 2004-11-27 00:19 · Score: 1

We have doctors reading /. and they give examples about users editing their _registry_? Woah!

Re:The problem with Patrick... by renata.org · 2004-11-27 00:25 · Score: 1

If Pat doesn't want to be misheared as an hypocondriac self-diagnosing freak looking for some idiot doctor who agrees with his Googled diagnostic, he should stop acting like those. Flamebait me if you want, but I think his behavior towards the doctors is completely wrong, even if he is completely right.

He should not say "Hey, I think I have symptoms of disease X, that should be treated with medicine Y but bad doctors don't believe me", but "Hi, I have the symptoms X Y Z, had done the exams K W Q and got the results L Z W. Doctors thought I had illness I and treated me with T, but the symptoms X an Z have persisted. MEanwhile, I searched about my symptoms and found the following articles to N diseases (believe, there's ALWAYS more than one strange disease that can be related to any symptoms you may have) that may present some of these, but I need a doctor to find what I do REALLY have, as Google is not known to be a doctor, can you help me?". It makes a BIG difference for the one who listen.

And, the obvious advice: take some vacation and/or look for a cognitive psychologist during the treatment, as stress ALWAYS make things look worse than they are and is the best friend of psychossomatics diseases. And no, you don't need to be crazy/retarded to need psychological support or to develop psyschossomatic problems - you just need to be stressed.

Re:Speaking as a paramedic (see also: Munchausen's by Anonymous Coward · 2004-11-27 00:26 · Score: 0

I work in healthcare ( fortunately out of the firing line of actual patient care ), and jesus christ, do I feel your pain. To all the doctors and para's posting in this thread and getting hated on by the slashdot majority, some of us out there still love you. Keep it real.

I agree by the_skywise · 2004-11-27 02:39 · Score: 1

Personally, I think his doctor did all the other probe tests FIRST (lower GI and stuff) to teach him a lesson...

No Such Thing As "Free" Health Care" by reallocate · 2004-11-27 02:44 · Score: 1

Health care is not free in Europe or elsewhere, and it would not be free in thr U.S. Whether you write a check to pay the doctor or a check to pay your taxes or a check to pay your health insurance, you're paying for your health care.

The real issue is to make health care affordable for everyone, while preserving the right to choose the people that provide your health care if you have the money to pay for their services. That's still possible in the UK, and elsewhere.

And, no, the costs of the war in Iraq pale compared to the cost of health care in the U.S.

--
-- Slashdot: When Public Access TV Says "No"

Words of Sufi wisdom by Anonymous Coward · 2004-11-27 03:12 · Score: 0

So basically, you are trusting your mother's medical judgement over your doctor's medical judgement?

The expert is not always right. Here's a little Sufi parable:

A neighbour came to Nasrudin, asking to borrow his donkey. "It is out on loan," the teacher replied. At that moment, the donkey brayed loudly inside the stable. "But I can hear it bray, over there." "Whom do you believe," asked Nasrudin, "me or a donkey?"

I have a feeling you know little of obituaries. by Vogulus · 2004-11-27 07:00 · Score: 1

"It seems like you keep jumping around to all the different ER's in the area... What does your actual Doctor think of everything that is going on? You do have a family doctor, right? Keep this up and the next /. post is going to be your Obituary." Wow, I can't believe this has a score of 3. I'm going to try to not let this offend me personally. Although, I could see it offending a great many people, because you are speaking from a deficit of factual information. I've been to see a lot of doctors. What do you do when one literally walks out of the room while you are talking to him? Would you make another appointment and pay the $70+ to have him do it again? You don't know this man's situation. He's well spoken, and seems to be well-read on his condition. Someone before commented that doctor-shopping sets off red flags, what really sets of red flags is an intelligent patient. Doctors, in general, do not appreciate that at all. And just like many here, assume you must be a hypochondriac because you took the time to read about why you feel so bad constantly. It's a position of ignorance, but doctors should know better and be able to tell the difference. I've been blown off by doctor's numerous times. It gets to a point where they just say "That's all I can do," and (literally) walk out on you. I don't stick with doctors who do that. It's pointless, a waste of time and money. I think you should think carefully before you propose to understand his situation and tell him he is playing games with his health. If anything, the doctors who won't run as many tests as he wants and can reasonably afford are playing with his health.

Re:Don't bash me for being insensitive, but by Anonymous Coward · 2004-11-27 07:11 · Score: 0

.. of course, he wasn't the first face, nor was the distro called Slackware, but ...

Re:my_fake_account by Anonymous Coward · 2004-11-27 18:13 · Score: 0

I've actually had the surgery myself: an ingrown nail is easily infected and can be quite painful. I just felt the posters whining about (Britain's?) healthcare was totally unjustified. I don't think Americans would be singled out either, for that matter. On the other hand, I do have doubts about the sanity of a Goth who thinks their getting Novacaine after donating blood. just seems a bit too delusional/paranoid. BTW there are also better recreational drugs than alcohol for do-it-yourself surgery- I'm not about to recommend any though ;->

Tough situation by djtopper · 2004-11-28 17:21 · Score: 1

I remember reading the original post on Slashdot about Pat. I sent him email at the time suggesting he seek out "the best" possible medical care he could find using: http://www.usnews.com/usnews/health/hosptl/tophosp .htm And I'm glad to see that he's visited the Mayo. But at this point I'm wondering, and worried if: - he should stay in one place and let them treat him - he has a very delicate and complicated condition which he'll need a great deal of luck and good karma to solve - his own self diagnosis is making things more difficult / scaring off some physicians I don't think I have much more to tell Pat personally other than best of luck, but I'm very concerned on a human level, and as a Slackware user since the old download-twenty-floppies-of-a- pre-1.0-kernel days. Slackware, to me, represents the best of Linux. Free from corporate control, always rock solid, loaded with dev tools, sleek and elegant, etc ... So in a small way I'm a bit scared out of my wits. Maybe not a useful post in that sense, but what other community can I post about this? Be well, Pat. And if things get really bad, god forbid, leave some instructions on how you'd like Slackware to proceed. We'll pick up where you left off bro. DT

Re:Hurry up and die faggot by djtopper · 2004-11-28 17:28 · Score: 1

Don't stop using Slackware. Despite the original moron's post in this thread, Pat's contribution to Society will ALWAYS be much greater than people like Bill Gates. That's what separates us from the rest my friend. We innovate. We create. We continue. The rest fades and becomes irrelevant.

Slackware will continue. Count on it.

DT

PS. Slashdot please post the original poster's IP in some "secret place" so WE can get busy hunting him down.

self-diagnosing by Anonymous Coward · 2004-11-29 22:24 · Score: 0

similar experience. did some research, thought i have heart trouble, got nervous, felt sick.
finally went to see a specialist, nothing turned up. my own research just kept me from finding the real problem (chronic gastritis or something similar).

in my experience, it is best to just give a good account of your actual symptoms and not insist on specific tests. then, you stick with one doctor or one hospital and and keep coming back, if therapy doesn't work.

oh btw, as far as i know, acute pancreatitis is very very painful. i think they'll take notice when you have that....

Hey Pat, do you floss? by EmagGeek · 2004-11-30 01:15 · Score: 1

When was the last time you went to the dentist? It is fairly common for people with poor oral hygeine to get endocarditis and other blood infections. These infections usually occur when bacteria fester in the gums and then enter the bloodstream after flossing or a visit to the dentist for a checkup. If you have gingivitis or if your gums bleed when you floss, I would consider this a possibility and ask a Doctor about it.

IANAD

A Brief Explanation of Chiropractic Theory by preapocalyptic · 2004-11-30 04:40 · Score: 0

Disease is caused by both "Germs" and Spinal misalingnment.

The body operates like a city. Each organ system has a specific function that keeps the city running smoothly. The main thoroughfare of communication from the local government to the rest of the city is the spinal cord.

In a city that has poor communication with it's populace, the ignored portion of the population stops listening to the directives of the city government. Sometimes this benefits the body (vomiting as a reaction against a harmful food intake directive), other times when the body ignores directives from the mind it has a harmful effect on the entire organization.

One of these cases is bacterial/viral infection. There are always millions of potentially harmful organisms present in our body. The agenda of these organisms is to find a hospitable environment in which to live and propagate. When the level of these organisms becomes hazardous to the health of their host body, the brain sends signals via the spinal cord to the different organ systems so these systems can coordinate an attack and flush the harmful organisms from the body. When the communication of these systems is impeded so is their ability to perform their functions. With a malfunctioning body, the propagation of these harmful organisms is left unchecked and they begin the process of preparing the body for it's return back to the earth.

Get thee to a teaching hospital by frankie · 2004-12-02 04:08 · Score: 1

vortimax, what kind of doctors are you seeing? If they're HMO/PCP types, yes you might have trouble with a non-ordinary condition. They are neither paid nor trained to deal with "zebras" (as opposed to "horses", aka typical maladies).

I completely agree with several of the other comments here. Pick one good doctor (defined as smart, educated, and a good listener), preferably at a tertiary-care research hospital, and stick with her (and her referrals). Don't hide stuff (like unrelated symptoms or self-treatments), and keep an open mind.

Patrick Volkerding by Anonymous Coward · 2004-12-05 06:44 · Score: 0

Truly an american icon

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