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eGenesis to Develop New MMO with Orson Scott Card
Johnathon Walls writes "eGenesis, makers of the non-combat, world-building massively multiplayer online (MMO) game "A Tale in the Desert" versions 1 and 2, has signed a deal with Orson Scott Card (author of Ender's game and The Seventh Son) to develop the pre-Civil War American world of "Alvin the Maker" into a new MMO. This is also going to be a non-combat-centered, community-building world. Questions remain as to the amount of interest these non-combat games generate, and concerns about the rapidly dropping population of Tale 2 (a steady decline from 2089 subscribers on Sep 26 to 1582 subscribers on Jan 6) really bring this issue to the forefront."
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That's it. Exploring and building get old quickly.
On the other hand, it can't be much worse than what they got in high school.
Behold the riant ape! Beware, his crooked thumbs!
Caveat: I'm a raving fanboy of Orson Scott Card's *writing*.
That being said, as much as I adore the Alvin Maker series, I'm not sure how that will translate into an MMORPG. Ultimately all such games require conflict as much as cooperation, and without combat, conflict feels lacking in many such games.
Issues of product aside, I'm hoping Orson Scott Card reaps fantastic gobs of money for the license for the stories/setting, as his work certainly is worth it.
"To pass through the jungle; silence, courtesy, ferocity, as the occasion demands." -- Kamau, "Proper Passage"
Each of these MMOGs is a full time, all night, every night ordeal. There's really enough room in our lives (and wallets) for one at a time.
I think he needs to stick with writing, there's plenty of MMOGs now and they're getting pretty good.
Some can argue that America has never been civil, but that the heck does this mean? Do they mean "pre-Civil-War American world"? Does anyone read these submissions before they get posted on the front page???
I'd like to see the Ender's Game universe turned into a MMORPG.
However, comments above are right, non-combat MMO's can be pretty boring. I tried the Tales games, and after 10 minutes the point was lost to me.
It boggles my mind as to how a member of one oft-persecuted minority group (Mormons) can justify persecuting another minority group.
Why is it that the proponents of "one nation under God" are so eager to get rid of "liberty and justice for all"?
who have never read any of Orson Scott Card's work, run, do not walk, to the nearest bookstore/library and buy/check out/steal/photocopy Ender's Game.
For those of you who have read some of his novels but have never read his short stories, you should check out Maps in a Mirror, recently re-released in paperback. In particular, check out "The Hanged Man and the King of Words", "Unaccompanied Sonata", "Mikal's Songbird", "A Plague of Butterflies", uhm... look just buy the book ok.
And while I'm at it. There is a story in the book After the King called "Silver of Gold" by Emma Bull and another one called "The Fellowship of the Dragon" by Patricia A. McKillip, and well, you should read those too.
That's it.
Oh wait. Terry Pratchett is great too...
Oh, hello Nurse Ratchet...
[Sounds of scuffling in the background]
Must press submit...
Finally, a massively multiplayer version of Tetris! (context)
I do preliminary design on projects to entertain myself, and my current project is an MMO that is completely different from everything else out there. I would like to include design elements from these games, but I've never played them.
I never really understood how a MMO would work if based off a "super hero" world. Basicly, this MMO will be set in an alternative world of a godlike Joseph Smith. What's the angle; everyone starts their own church? Can we all sit around and translate plates hidden in a hat? Are we suposed to work together to cross Hatrack River or cut diseased bone from Joseph's (excuse me, Alvin's) leg?
Seriously, why do people buy into Alvin's story? It's just a fantasized retelling of Joseph Smith's life.
And OSC's Homecoming Series was basicly a rewritten account of The Book of Mormon.
I'd rather you do it wrong, than for me to have to do it at all.
I would say that the problem isn't a rapid decline of popularity, since you can't lose what you don't have.
The Old Ultraviolence is where it's at.
Laugh while you can, monkey-boy!
I hear "Alvin the Maker" and think of a large sandworm with funny eyebrows.
Good quote, too many chars. Seriously, the slashdot 120 char limit sucks!
would be a MMOTG (Tactical Game). One of my favourite game ever is Final Fantasy Tactics, and I always tought: "Goddammit, how cool it would be if it was multiplayer, and how GODLY it would be if it was MM!"
What I dislike about MMORPG is that you don't have the time to say "oh shit" that you are already dead in PvP. You don't have the time to talk to your opponents. Of course, if both players are nice RPers, maybe that they'll talk to each other, but has it ever happened to you with anybody else than people you already knew before combat? Have you ever tried to be a "Verbose PK" in UO? You can't. Combat goes too fast. Of course, you can macro some cool stuff to say, but it rapidly grows boring to say the same old stuff.
I'm saying this and I for one have no idea of a practical way to implement a game like that. Nevertheless, it would probably a MMO I would stick to. Or maybe it already exists and someone will tell me where I can find it?
perception is reality
I need one of these now?
I just spent like 300 bucks on a Radeon now I need an "Orson Scott" card.
Does linux have "Orson Scott" card support?
This is why consoles are so popular. Noone should have to buy new hardware every month just to play some crappy games.
I don't need no instructions to know how to rock!!!!
I'll stand by your clarification. By "writing" I meant "fiction", and not his homophobic rants. That's what I intended to convey in the first place.
"To pass through the jungle; silence, courtesy, ferocity, as the occasion demands." -- Kamau, "Proper Passage"
> Questions remain as to the amount of interest these non-combat games generate
If these games are to be popular past the "gee whiz, check it out!" phase, they need to let the player decide how much or how little time is appropriate.
No game or hobby that requires dozens of hours per week to achieve and kind of success is ever very popular. Life is too full things to do.
On an offtopic note: Is there a SF writer out there who is more right-wing than OSC?
Seriously, I'm trying to think of one.
Operator, give me the number for 911!
It's better to have a small community with a richly defined experience than a new game aimed at people who already have a mass produced outlet they are content with.
postmodernsideshow.com
Before I continue, you should know that I'm one of those MMORPG players who loves doing tradeskills. I loved UO's system, hated EQ's, and thought I found a new best friend in ATiTD. Unfortunately, they made it boring as hell with a few exceptions.
What i'd really like to see in a tradeskill based MMORPG is more skill involved, possibly some twitch based tradeskills. I mean, how cool would it be if you had to point to where you wanted the smithing hammer to strike, or if you had to point to where you wanted the mining pick to strike a vein, but you also had to click a slider to get the right speed, etc.
I think whoever can make a tradeskill system that is more realistic than all of the current systems out there will have a winner.
Buy Steampunk Clothing Online!
ps Just because YOU don't understand this post doesn't mean it is off topic!
Lasers Controlled Games!
If you care for these "ultimate" reinventions Marvel is fond of (I only like Ultimate X-Men, myself), then it might interest you to know that Orson Scott Card is writing Ultimate Iron Man when it debuts in March. I'm not sure how long he's signed up for, but I'd guess no more than 12 issues. See here for details. For those not up on comics, the quick summary is that the "ultimate" line is Marvel's way of restarting their characters from scratch so as to draw in new readers who don't want to fuck around with the 40 years of storylines.
This makes it pretty obvious to me. Look at the levels people are reaching...
The levels are Student, Apprentice, Journeyman, Scribe... we'll stop there cause no one has gotten and further.
Now, looking at architecture, the highest level reached is apprentice.
Art & Music, NO ONE RANKS,
Body? Yeah, some apprentices here (you have to have a good body to fight)
Leadership, one Journeyman...
Thought, a few students
Worship, a decent amount here, not playing the game, I dont' know what benefits this gives.
Conflict: Wow, 8 people have made it to j'man here. Only worship scores higher.
So, the two most desired attributes are to be a good fighter and to be worshiped. Tells me that a non-fighting game is doomed.
I'll admit, I haven't played (well, I played the first when it was free) I'm getting all my info from the chart, so I may be all washed up.
Do not meddle in the affairs of sysadmins, for they are subtle, and quick to anger.
Somewhat related, Orson Scott Card is also going to be writing the Ultimate Iron Man miniseries for Marvel Comics.
Stil waiting for GTA-Online with a map of half the US...
This comment does not represent the views or opinions of the user.
I loved Orson Scott Card's writing when I was 12. By the time I was 15, I was a little less into it, and discovered that he is a Mormon and shoehorns his idiotic little belief structure into his novels. At some point he said something like "This story is an allegory about self destructive people like drug addicts and homosexuals."
I thought... wait... wasn't a homosexual a totally essential character in the "Call of Earth" series? Oh. Yeah. He was a hero because he decided to do the right thing and have sex with women.
Orson Scott Card is a sick little fuck. I realize that my new knowledge of the author is obviously coloring my opinion of his writing, but it all turned to ashes in my mouth. As far as I can tell, his writing is complete crap.
There are no trails. There are no trees out here.
Yay... Mormon propoganda is turned into a game. Get out your magical underoos
This is my sig. There are many like it but this one is mine.
Thank you for pointing this out. I had no idea.
We recently had heard in the office over one of the Yellow Machine that's made by Anthology Solutions.
He states that no science fiction novel should ever have faster-than-light travel. In other words, this won't be an MMORPG, but a screensaver. You'll create a character, set course to Alpha Centauri, and come back 4 years later to fight your first NPC. Four years later, you'll arrive back at Earth to sell your loot. Now THATS what I call a TIME SINK!
to a non-combat MMO about the time I subscribe to slashdot.
between the greater and lesser infinities sleep the dreams undreamt
Here are my population estimates for some of the major MMORPG's.
Lineage: 2,000,000 subscribers
World of Warcraft: 600,000
Final Fantasy XI: 550,000
Everquest 1: 250,000
City Of Heroes: 200,000
Everquest 2: 150,000
A Tale in the Desert 2: 1,500
1,500 isn't much in the world of Massive Multiplayer Online Role Playing Game's.
I played the original A Tale in the Desert quite a bit back in the day, and I've considered trying ATITD2 for a month to see what's new. I have to say that I did enjoy the original ATITD quite a bit for a while, the people at eGensis did a really great job putting together a non-combat MMORPG- but it did have problems.
I think the problem with the non-combat MMORPGs is the exact same problem as with more standard MMORPGs, just that it tends to show a bit more. The problem is the oft-discussed leveling treadmill.
A lot of people play more traditional MMORPGs because they like to gain prestige through having level 100 characters with +50 swords of dragon slaying and armor of holy protection and more money than god. In a non-combat MMORPG you take away those carrots, and basically all that's left is to see how boring a MMO game really can be at times. It's not that they are any more boring than City of Heros or Evercrack, just that without levels and rare items to work toward, the borning treadmill beneath the game shows itself a bit more
The real saving grace of ATITD was the community. With a relatively small number of people, and the afore mentioned lack of level and item status symbols, the game didn't attract griefers like many other games do, and I think that it helped having a good community, but at some point you realize that you are still doing the same thing over and over again.
Instead of "Go to A and kill mob X, then go to B and kill mob Y" it's "plant and harvest flax, let flax rot while mining for ore, seperate flax, start making cloth/canvas, make charcoal". Instead of levels, occasionally you'd get enough resources to learn a skill or complete a test.
I think the problem with many MMO games is the higherarcy of power- that is to say there really isn't one. You have the GMs who work for the company and will occasionally run games, and then you have a whole mess of players.
I think the solution to this will involve some way for players to create their own quests, more powerful characters will be able to exert more influence and run larger, more spread out quests. I think that this is the type of innovation that will probably start in a non-combat game at first anyway, if only because the logistics implementation are simpler when you don't have to deal with mobs and boss monsters and weapons and such.
Things like that were even starting to happen when I last played ATITD, larger guilds were offering rewards for rare items, or for hard-to-make items, so that they could build buildings or produce items.
I was a member of a medium sized guild, and there were cases where our guild would host a part and invite people and then offer up goods in exchange for players completing a quest, so that we could get items to trade up to a larger guild.
Anyway, I've been rambling on- somewhat incoherently, but what I was trying to say was this: I don't think the problem with non-combat MMO's is their lack of combat, I think that the problem is one that is systemic to the entire genre, and is only covered up cosmetically by the combat in more traditional MMO's. The decling interest in them is really just a symptom of the declining interest in the leveling treadmill that is present in all MMO games, however, I think that if done correctly, a non-combat MMO could bring some innovation that would eventually reach more traditional MMOs and revitalize the genre.
Famous Last Words: "hmm...wikipedia says it's edible"
Since Orson Scott Card is going to help out with this, I hope it will be entertaining in a different type of way; I get sick of games in which the point is to level your character etc. Maybe this will set a precedent to put more of a story into Mass Multiplayer games. Is this the first "proposed" MM game that will employ a master writer? It's the only one that I can think of...
University of Washington
Student
Some folks on here have suggested some of Orson Scott Card's fiction. I would also like to suggest some read his non-fiction. He is an outspoken critic of homosexuality and gay marriage. I read those works by Orson Scott Card and they were enough to convince me that I didn't want to read any of his fiction. Your mileage may vary, but it doesn't hurt to be an informed consumer.
http://www.popularculturegaming.com -- my blog about the culture of videogame players
Yep. Religious choice aside - the man is well known for his anti-homosexual hate.
http://atheism.about.com/b/a/053881.htm Orson Scott Card is a flaming mormon and a huge homophobe.
I *loved* "Ender's Game" but quickly got disenchanged (to the point of taking away from "Ender's Game") with the rest of the immediate series after that (through Xenocide books). "Ender's Shadow" and those newer books were OK though.
I read all of the Alvin Maker series (man, what an unclimactic loose thread the ending there was).
Like you, the rest of the "Ender's Game" series turned into nothing more than religious writings to the point where it was about the same as when I go to concerts and see the extreme-right religious groups outside picketing the concert and telling me I'm going to Hell for attending the concert.
After reading so much of OSC's books (even making myself read some to finish the story), I doubt I'll pick up any more books by him.
Does that mean it will have slave trading? That would be strange. I guess you could ignore that piece of history for the sake of the game. That would be a little strange, also.
Oh, the Mormon bit is alright.
As is customary on SlashDot, disapproval of homosexuality is equated with homophobia. One can disagree with something, and even speak against it, without fearing it (at least in the phobic sense).
Have you read his writing? No series ever ends, and each book ends with a new plot twist.
This is exactly what MMORPGs want, isn't it? An infinitely long story where each module makes the player have to buy the next one until the creators get tired of making them and make some new series?
Mod me down and I will become more powerful than you can possibly imagine!
"Homophobe" and "homophobic" are nothing but name-calling - terms used to avoid engaging serious discussion on a topic that the new liberal orthodoxy has declared decided, even as the vast bulk of Americans simply disagree.
As far as your comparison of Homosexuals and Mormons - are you seriously suggesting that there is no difference between religious faith and sexual practice? Are you seriously suggesting that we have a freedom of sexual practice comparable to our freedom of religious conviction? Are you seriously under the delusion that the status of homosexuality as a civil rights issue rather than a moral issue is settled?
The bottom line is that YOU are the innovator here, not Card. To act as though he must, necessarily, agree with your orthodoxy when your orthodoxy has thrown the orthodoxy of 30 years ago out the window, and that any failure to do so must only be because he is "homophobic", is downright insulting.
"He who would learn astronomy, and other recondite arts, let him go elsewhere. " -- John Calvin, commenting on Genesis 1
Viz the "screed," he's basically saying that you can be a homosexual or a Mormon, but not both. To say otherwise is like a pacificst joining the army and complaining that you shouldn't be forced to kill people. Nothing really "homophobic" about it.
Awww crap... I'll start stacking the stones for all the heretics and homos. I loved OSC's stories 'till I started reading the mans politics. He's a skinny, less drug addled (yet more crazy) Rush Limbaugh. Who hath mine queer bashing schythe?
I really enjoyed Card's *stories*. His *writing* style seemed very simplistic. I guess the target audience is 12 year olds. Once his stories got muddled and out of the spirit of the series, the reading became unbearable because the writing was so weak.
Another rant. His forwards are long and boring and awful. I barely made it to the first chapter. I don't know why I didn't skip them, but some morbid curiosity kept telling me, "this one can't be as bad as the last one". Oops, wrong again. What a self important ass.
One wonders (me, anyway) if he shouldn't be busy helping with the inevitable game of the upcoming movie...
"...Well, there's egg and bacon; egg sausage and bacon; egg and spam; egg bacon and spam; egg bacon sausage and spam..."
There are pacifists in the Army, we call them Medics.
Food not Bombs is a nice platitude but it breaks down when you notice that the Bombees are usually well fed
http://magazine.byu.edu/bym/1996/96march/sbook.ht
http://www.editoreric.com/greatlit/authors/Card.h
If you want something a little more substantial, here's a post I know of:1 615&highlight=#181615
http://www.godawful.net/forums/viewtopic.php?p=18
Hmmm.... its funny that you use that wording. Lets turn it around.
You are a flaming homo and a huge mormophobe.
I'm not anywhere near as big a fan of Card's essays as I am his fiction, but then again, there's a *huge* difference between the quality. His fiction generally paints nuanced, human characters whose motivations and actions make sense; his essays tend to seem very black and white and often don't. Don't judge one by the other.
Though I might add the first essay is actually more nuanced than one might suppose.
Tweet, tweet.
Both Ender's Game and Speaker for the Dead are outstanding books (and I would add Xenocide to that list), just for different reasons. They speak to different things.
Sadly, Children of the Mind slips a bit, and the follow-on, return-to-the-well "Shadow" series is just horrible.
My advice is to purchase:
"Ender's Game"
"Speaker for the Dead"
"Xenocide"
"Children of the Mind"
and then stop. Pretend he died shortly thereafter.
DG
Want to learn about race cars? Read my Book
Ultimately all such games require conflict as much as cooperation, and without combat, conflict feels lacking in many such games.
Orson Scott Card is already quite experienced in video game combat. He wrote all of the insults for the insult swordfighting in Secret of Monkey Island, the first Monkey Island game. Although I guess this type of "fighting" is naturally inherent among players in MMORPGs in general, maybe he can make it fresh with less expletives and more wit.
"You fight like a dairy farmer!"
"How appropriate, you fight like a cow!"
Yeah, I can see this.
I agree. I thought the short story version of Enders Game (may have been called something else, I read it years and years and years ago) was kind of a neat idea.
But I never understood how it could be lengthened into a novel.
I finally decided to get the book-on-tape version from my local library a few months ago.
I could barley force myself to finish it.
Would this be the vast bulk of America that refused to recognize blacks as full citizens without a Constitutional Amendment shoved down their throats? Go on, preach about the evil "orthodoxy" that is corrupting the "morals" of America. Forgive me for sneering at the hypocrasy present in most Christian values.
You are simply a self-righteous bigot. Have a pleasant life -- hopefully you will never be judged in the hateful way you view others.
Together, we will drive the rats from the tundra.
He who collects the most wives wins!
DG
Want to learn about race cars? Read my Book
I, really, still do not see it. Maybe I would have to actually read the last book in the series. I see the overtones of a messiah, but.. come on? The only similarities I see are that Smith and Maker both wandered around the country picking up supporters.
Depends on your tastes. In the Quest for Numerical Superiority games, conflict is often merely a measure of who's got the bigger numbers, which often merely translate into who's put in the most grind time. There are other groups of (older) gamers who don't want to compete against a crowd of players who have a lot more time available. A niche market of MMO games which can cater to smaller sized groups and offer challenges which are more social and/or intellectual and reward creativity rather than hours logged online would certainly appeal to players like myself.
I played though Tale 1 for more than a year and was ultimately turned off by the players rather than the game itself. ATITD is a simple enough design that offers a lot of freedom to its players to shape and change both the game world and each other, but the host of players which the game attracted seemed more interested in simple building games rather than any sort of social puzzles. Despairing what I considered a massively unrealized potential I eventually left seeking greener pastures.
It certainly seems likely that gamers such as myself are too finicky for commercial ventures to bother catering towards, but I continue to follow the actions of companies like eGenesis with interest.
A steaming cup of soykaf would be real wiz right now.
For the ultimate OSC-style twist, the game could borrow a trick from Fable only in reverse. As you level up, your character would get younger until all of the high-level uber-characters were less than ten years old.
It's for Hatrackers. These folks have been doing role-play type posting in this "world" for more than a decade (they were going pretty heavy when I got to AOL, back when they used the GeoWorks interface). When Scott moved off of AOL to hatrack.com, they just moved over there, and have been going strong the whole time.
I don't think you're going to see this trying to be the next Everquest. The folks who want it will know about it (most already do) and we'll find out how many are willing to pay to use it. I'm not sure how it'll work out (I was never into the role-play part), but I know there are folks who will want to try it.
They don't have to justify anything. Fundamentalism and justification (logic, rationality, whatever) are mutually exclusive.
Smith had a younger brother named Alvin who died when he was quite young. If that isn't a reference, I don't know what is.
Most of those accounts were people just trying the game, then cancelling when they realized how much it sucks.
I am not a big fan of MMO to begin with, because, as others have noticed, yhey can take a massive amount of time and money, and therefore favor people with lots of both. In a sense, that is why non-combat MMORPG's are appealing, in that you don't have to go up against the 13 year old's (who has spent the last week not sleeping, eating anything that comes in foil packaging, and rarely going to pee) level 10 to the 18th power godlike super wizard/jedi/fighter/etc...
There was one that I was quite interested in at the time, from UbiSoft, which never got out of 'beta': The Myst series online world was compelling becuase of the enormous backstory, well written plot lines, and slowly expanding accessibility to the world....it was so intersting that it was dropped by UbiSoft. Strangely enough, I haven't gone back to play the 'offline' versions, and can barely remember the name of the game at this point.
So, while non-combat MMO's might be interesting, I will not hold my breath waiting for one, as one that seemed incredibly promising was dropped for perceived lack of market. This was more disappointing than I imagine a combat MMO being dropped, as more time was spent in character development and creating social relationships with other players...so I am unlikely to spend time in one that is in development. If most people now feel as I do, that means the perceived market will be small, and they'll never get out of development, etc etc...continue vicious cycle.
-F
I think a Homeworldesque version of the "simulator" for battles against the buggers would be the best game that could come out of OSC's writing.
Please allow me to be the first to say that I don't care for Orson Scott cards work. Enders Game was a great book, simply outstanding in its brevity intensity and pure gung ho military appeal. But it was all downhill from there. I read speaker for the dead and was left wondering what doppelganger had eaten the author of enders game and then pooped out that drivel some call the second novel of the series, Speaker for the Carebears. I also read the second Enders game, Beans Revenge. I rate that one about half the book Enders Game was. I then read the NEXT Beans Revenge book, entitled Montezuma's Revenge, which seemed a flimsy attempt at a contemporary spy novel set in the future. I got about half way through it and threw it down in disgust. And this is a book I paid 8 dollars for NEW (who in their right mind buys new books anyways? Not me ever again!). Anyways to summarize, Orson Scott Card is a mediocre author with one outstanding work that he has been cashing in on for 20 years by selling utter crap sequels. The end. Oh yah to keep this on topic, I would never play an Orson Scott Card based MMO
...but like you, I have decided not to read the writings of people who diagree with me.
No offense.
... in that they can peddle the lowest quality of gaming shit and still manage to maintain a subscriber base of suckers paying $15/month.
Now, before you rush to slap me down as a troll - take a look at their product. Their 3D tech is primitive at best, laughable at worst. For those of you who haven't seen it, I shall put it briefly:
Imagine rolling 3D hills and desert with bland texturing and the occasional tree. Water is available only upon a single level of altitude. If you're lucky, you might actually see the rare tree or rock or special land feature. Other than that, there's the player structures. WHOOPEE! Little ovens and grey bricks that have been shat out over all the landscape.
Once you finish puking your guts out at the pathetic graphics showing, you can then experience the joy that eGenesis calls a user interface. Ergonomics students take note: If you ever want to do research on bad design, pick up this game. Most tradeskills are a matter of repetitive clicking - over and over again. There's some variance and some originality in some skills, but most of the time you'll be mindlessly clicking.
Anything wrong with the game itself is billed as a great 'social experiment'. Such as the massive amounts of crap that needs to be churned out in order for the world to advance in technology, or roleplayed events that go sour. Users getting shat on? It's not a bug, it's not a feature, it's THE GRAND SOCIAL EXPERIMENT!
Now given all this, what actually keeps eGenesis's subscribers in the game? Well, I'd wager half of them were shafted on 6-month pre-orders (Ooh, t-shirt and a sheep included! Yeah.). But seriously, what keeps them in is the cult-like 'community' built up around the game. Few care to quit because of all the friends they've built up through the game, eh?
Machivellian developers take note, as with this game there is a lesson to be learned: Develop a cult community around a game and you can shit on your users however you want, and still take their money! Why perfect your game in endless Betas when you can do a half-ass job and still get paying users? This my friends, is the wave of the future.
This conflicts with my Slashbot world view! Whatever am I to do? Fellow Slashbots, please lead me to the correct conclusion!
ender's game mainly appeals to all those angst ridden teens who "identify" with ender. as far as a SF story goes, ender's game is rather mediocre.
beats me how it won a hugo. i guess they must have had pretty low standards back then.
Some of his *writing* is downright scary (EG, his infamous homophobic screed).
Despite the "infamous" status, I'd never heard of this screed. So I looked it up.
And you know, it just sounds like a reasonable opinion, and contains much sound advice. Sorry you haven't had the opportunity (yet) to raise children, and watch them blossom with positive role models of father and mother.
It's not homophobic to see that this is so, any more than it's racist to acknowledge that white-skinned people need more sunscreen on the beach. Marriage, as an institution, is an acknowledgement of this fact. As mature adults, we either acknowledge this, or pay the price with dysfunctional families and neurotic offspring.
I'm not advocating that we burn homosexuals. My heart truly goes out to a homosexual partner who is unable to accompany his partner through death, or who loses legal rights to property thereafter. I support efforts to address these wrongs.
But, by definition, a homosexual cannot "marry" a same-sex partner, any more than a bicycle can defecate.
I have no problem with your religion until you decide it's reason to deprive others of the truth.
I love OSC and I'm interested in how it'll turn out but I know I'm not the only one thats thought about this...
Foundation Series MMORPG!
I want to fly over Trantor. What's my part in the plan Hari Seldon?
So this would be a Massively Mormon Online Role Playing Game?
It would be sorta cool to play a 100ft tall Joseph Smith in Magical Underoos smiting nonbelievers.
Vincent J. Murphy
Spandex Justice
for those who liked Ender's Game, they are making it a movie.
I'm pretty interested to see how they do all the stunt work with kids. In my mind while reading the book, I thought it would make a good computer animated film.
They have signed some talent to make this a movie. Pretty cool.
Try MUDs. There are tons of MUDs out there that don't require a huge time investment, have mature codebases, and are based around social interaction. Look into Eternal Struggle, Armageddeon, Shadow Siege... there are many others, as well.
Comment of the year
I would disagree. While there were indeed some tasks that were tedious (for instance, the first task you get in the tutorial of gathering clay for bricks, building a kiln, getting knives, making flax...), there were also some truly interesting challenges like creating an artistic work that was judged by peers. Or, for instance, the test of leadership where you had to prove you could engender trust by hiding a chest of gold, telling 10 people how to get into it, then have said chest unmolested for a week of game time. To me, the "Maces of Blud-Kurdle" and "+50 Swords of Nymph-Poking" were the tests. You had to grind your way up to them, but once you started hitting upper levels, you were faced with more and more interesting tasks. The fact that once an advance was reached, it was available to everyone made it easier for people to catch up, producing more of a sloping pyramid of skill levels. The fact that you could only advance to the next level if there were a sufficient number of people on the level below you meant that there was a good reason to help and train others in the game.
But again, I think the tedium was a problem. While registered users could set themselves traveling, log off, then log back on to find themselves having moved in the interim, piddling things like producing bricks and such still needed to be babysat. I believe that MMOs should allow you to set up a routine task list to be accomplished when you're not online. Maybe it would be at a slightly lower effectiveness (only 4/5 as much wood picked up per time unit, scaled for how much wood is actually in your vicinity when you leave). The list would probably need to be refreshed at least once a day as the items are depleted and of course, they wouldn't spontaneously advance (if you were gathering mud for bricks, you might be able to build the bricks, but you couldn't schedule building the kiln or schedule firing items in the kiln). *shrug* But of course, people would likely complain, just like they did in World of Warcraft when the rest system introduced diminshing returns for long hours of play.
This sig has absolutely no significance and serves only to take up screen space and waste the time of the reader.
I thought it would be an announcement of a new formula Marvel Mystery Oil.
http://www.pipercubforum.com/marvel.htm
Ecce potestas casei!
I was going to say that.
On a semi-related note, another SF book that would make for an interesting game would be "American Gods" by Neil Gaiman of Sandman fame. The book was so-so... but it would make for a sweet MMORPG. The basic premise is that all the gods and monsters exist by virtue of human's raw belief in them and their attributes. They go stronger and weaker because of them, and go wherever their followers go. The central conflict is between the old forgotten and weak gods - Oestre, Odin, etc. - versus the new and powerful ones - Cars, TV, etc.
A MMO game would have players randomly assigned actual historical gods - each player gets a unique one - with all their unique abilities, attributes, and needs. The goal is to curry "worship" from the NPC humans, in conflict and cooperation from other gods. So you could be Joseph Smith, and every time someone commits polygamy, or converts, you get a boost, and so forth.
Another novel of his, "Neverwhere", is similar in many respects but has a different background. In that one, the world is full of unusual people who are simply unnoticed by normal folks, and who live in places where no one ever thinks to look.
---If you can't trust a nerd, who can you trust?
Overall, I would say that Orson Scott Card has his views on life and probably holds to them in this world, but as he writes science fiction and fantasy, he feels comfortable in having his characters act entirely different. It's that "what-if" mentality that drives the genre.
This sig has absolutely no significance and serves only to take up screen space and waste the time of the reader.
OK, so he's an outspoken Player of the Game, as is his entire religion. He heaps abuse upon those that won't play. Fair enough, he's free to pretend he's a fully realized person. I did love his comment about homosexual orientation being a totalitarian master, and then gleefully painting his own religion as one equally totalist!
That's his right, though. And I shall oppose him only when he drags his Necromongers out of space to try to convert me.
What we call folk wisdom is often no more than a kind of expedient stupidity.-Edward Abbey
When you have a lot of people backing you up you never have to explain a thing.
What we call folk wisdom is often no more than a kind of expedient stupidity.-Edward Abbey
It boggles my mind how you can think that is a justification for persecuting a minority group. Someone writes his opininions on someones behavior and you think it is persecution.
/not mormon
Oh, but your opinions aren't justification for persecuting his beliefs at all.
persecution = usually severe harassment because of your opinion.
How is this severe?
One valid definition is "The Christian sacrement of Marriage". You are correct that a person cannot perform the Christian sacrement of Marriage with a person of the same gender, at least in mainstream Christian churches. What happens inside a church is none of the government's business.
However, another entirely valid definition of marriage is "The secular recognition that an enduring relationship exists between two or more people, which is granted certian special protections under the law". This kind of "marriage" is completely independent of Christian "marriage", and it is this definition of marriage which is at issue here.
If I name my cat "bicycle", then I can say in all truthfulness that "a bicycle can deficate". Likewise, a significantly skilled engineer could design a bicycle which expelled fecal matter occasionally.
Why is it that the proponents of "one nation under God" are so eager to get rid of "liberty and justice for all"?
I also get to see first-hand the detrimental effect my wife's (extremely negative, hate-filled, misogynistic) ex-husband has had on my stepdaughter while she has been in his custody.
Why is it that the proponents of "one nation under God" are so eager to get rid of "liberty and justice for all"?
I'll stick to Lemony Snicket, thanks.
What we call folk wisdom is often no more than a kind of expedient stupidity.-Edward Abbey
(Not the OP) /. over the past 4 or 5 months.
Yeah, I only found out about that last year myself - I've since spread the word to three other discussions on
It's fine if people decide they still want to support Card financially after learning of what he stands for, but I think everyone has a right to know what he believes, and seems proud to believe.
He's never getting a dime from me again (I, unfortunately own three of his books already - someday I may be able to get past his views to be able to enjoy them, but for now I can't look at his name without cringing).
Actually, I've loved Orson Scott Card's books as long as they were at the beginning of the series. Just picked up the most recent volume of the Alvin Maker Series last night, actually.
Ender's Game and Speaker for the Dead absolutely rocked. As did Seventh Son.
But, things start to really fall apart in the Ender Saga after Xenocide. And Prentice Alvin started to get a little on my nerves. Don't even get me started on Heartfires. Did anyone else feel left out by not being a member of AOL and signing on to that Hatrack River board?
Now, as a non-combat game, I can imagine that that means that you'll likely not be doing any PKing and such. But rather building against the threat of the Unmaker. I play ToonTown (yes, I'm 30, so what) and it isn't really combat based... At least not in the UT2K4 kind of way... And it demands a great deal of teamwork. Something like that could actually be fun.
Though, I do admit that damned near everyone having a knack can get boring REALLY quick.
Mormon-bashing is just as bad as Gay-bashing. I'm suprised at the level of blatant Mormon-bashing in this thread. Hypocrites.
Isn't part of the point of speculative fiction to play "what if"? If Card wants to use Joseph Smith's story as a frame to build an alternative America around, and people think the alternative America is interesting and compelling, what of it? That doesn't mean they're going to buy into the Mormon worldview out here in the Real World.
As for the angle, your guess is as good as mine. In the Alvin Maker books, it's not uncommon for people to set out and create a community for themselves in an alternative frontier America ca. 1840. Perhaps the game will be built around that. Maybe people will in some way be helping Alvin to build his Crystal City. Maybe they'll choose to go fight against Our Mutual Friend a.k.a the Devil. Or maybe they'll choose to join up with the Cavil Planters of the world. Who knows?
The tone of your question suggests that you aren't really seriously interested in the answer.
Someone you trust is one of us.
...You can walk over to the adult section and pick up some books there, too. Seriously: Ender's Game might be a fun escapist read for kids, but it's not even good as far as science fiction is concerned. And personally, I'd instead encourage kids to read Mein Kampf.
Numerous studies have shown that the children of homosexual couples do not turn out any differently than children of heterosexual couples. So no the dysfunction in families is not caused or related to homosexuality.
Funnily enough dysfunction and neurosis can occur in heterosexual families too.
Mac OS X and Windows XP working side by side to fight back the night.
I'm lead designer on this project.
The Tales of Alvin Maker are not combat-free, and the would that we are building based on them isn't necessarily combat-free either. It's certainly not combat-centric, which puts it somewhere on the spectrum between most MMOs and a game like A Tale in the Desert. ATITD is, on the other hand, combat-free.
My girlfriend was raised by a lesbian pair. She turned out just fine.
Her relationship with her mother's partner just like that with a parent. It didn't matter what gender her parents were: the important part was that they raised her well. Growing up with two female parents was perfectly normal to her, and she had the same type of childhood experiences any other child might.
There are those, mainly in homophobic states like Texas, that claim such parents want to raise homosexuals. That's a bunch of nonsense. They respect her sexuality just as much as she respects theirs. I guess because some homophobes are constantly pressuring people to be heterosexual, they expect the same things from homosexuals. The world outside of Jesusland doesn't work like that, I'm afraid.
There is someone who has a diffent opinion than you, and then there is someone who is very vocal about their differing opinion. If OSC simply disagreed privately and wrote good sci--fi, then perhaps the parent wouldn't have as much of a problem. If you thought Sean Penn was a good actor, you might want to support him. If you saw him on tv condeming the Invasion of Iraq -- which you may have supported -- I wouldn't blame you for becoming disinterested in his movies.
Card has taken a very public stance on these issues, and I don't think it's wrong for someone to boycott Card business for this reason. I would probably stop shopping at a mom and pop store if they put up a sign saying that homosexuality was an abomination. I wouldn't want to support someone who pushes this agenda.
-- john
The other example is far too short-sighted. Of course there are short-term affects of therapy. However, the subject should not be considered closed until we examine these people years and years down the road. Having known a fair number of homosexuals rather well, most of them couldn't change if they wanted to. It's readily apparent, because, in their words, who would willingly choose a lifestyle that was so maligned?
As to your conclusion, I'm pretty much with you there. Government has no business redefining marriage. Its only involvement in matrimony should be the assigning of Fiscal costs/rewards for partnering, no more. Marriage has long been the province of religion and culture, and should have remained that way. Gov't should give gay people the equal footing they deserve in the financial world, and stay the hell out of the private beliefs and practices of the citizens.
Howdy.
Why? If there is only one Gender present does that mean the kid will never have any interaction with the "other" sex?
I wanted to comment on this issue about Sex and Gender and the well being of kids.
Believe it or not, there have been many, many psychological studies on this topic. And for the most part all of them conclude that a 2 gender parental enviroment is absolutely essential for 'normal, healthy, well adjusted' kids. And not for any religious reasons; I'll explain...
Notice how I say gender rather than sex; this is the key difference. Before the age of 12, kids need a 'Mom' figure in their life. They need someone to uncondionally love, nuture, and respond more with emotion than reason. It has been shown that babies recognize and respond more to their mother than father. Up until about the age of twelve, kids generally feel closer to their mother. Why? Because most women exhibit these traits. After the age of 12, this is when the 'father' role becomes essential. Someone who evokes a sense of trust, respect, independence, the ability to handle the world and deal with problems. At this point, both girls and boys start to respond and emulate their father figure until adulthood.
The stereotype 'Men are from Mars, Women are from Venus' really holds true. The vast majority of women fit the 'mom' psychological profile, and the vast majority of men fit the 'dad' role. There are fundamental hormonal diferences in the two sexes that prevent this for the most part. There are exceptions of course, but they are rare.
So for a gay parenting enviroment can work sucessfully, one or both of the parents need to exhibit enough traits of the opposite sex, to provide this necessary emotional resource for kids. In families that don't... both heterosexual and homosexual, children tend to grow up socially awkward and have many more problems in life.
The sending of this message pretty much inconveniences everyone involved.
I started reading books seriously at the age of 8 with Piers Anthony's series of Xanth. While at the time and over the years I have thought that the books are a bit girlie and kind of children oriented, I always thought that a good game inspired by Xanth would be pretty good.
1) Everyone has a magical talent.
2) This talent can help or hinder you
3) Every Magical talent is different
4) PUNS!!!!!!
5) Profit
The original game Companions of Xanth Sucked at the time it came out. I refused to even by it.
Anway, I'm not that intrigued by Card. His books are well ehhhhhh.
CAPS LOCK: ITS LIKE THE CRUISE CONTROL FOR AWESOME
Truly, you make a very good point.
This is all OT and I should just ignore it like a good little slashdotter, but I just can't. I feel compelled to interject that not all mormons feel as Card does. I am a straight LDS (that means mormon) male currently living with four gay LDS roommates. I sympathize with them. I talk with them. I campaign with them to change things. They are all openly gay and devoutly LDS. Of course it causes conflicts, but that's what community is for. Card's views should NOT be held as those of the church as a whole
While I'm getting modded down as OT anyway, I should add that I find the various openly derrogatory comments about mormons whenever the subject comes up very hurtful. I don't understand why if someone were to mock the Jewish faith he/she would be resoundingly rebutted, but when it comes to mormons, we're fair game. Sure there are some things about religion that seem silly. Such is true of any religion. That's hardly justification for deriding that which is different.
I can't speak for anyone else, but I'm a huge history buff, and this MMORPG appeals to me a lot more than any of the others, with the exception of SW:Galaxies, and that interest quickly waned after the release of the game (I didn't get it right off, and don't regret it). The appeal of having a pre-Civil War US or world in which I could essentially "live the life" of someone of that era is quite appealing if it's historically accurate on the broader sense.
All the more so for a Revolutionary War-era setting.
~/ssh slashdot.org ssh: connect to host slashdot.org port 22: too many beers
I like reading most of the stuff Card has written. A LOT. He can make me laugh, and he can make me cry. He can make me feel angry, disgusted, or hopeless. He can make me want to go out and slug someone, or stand up and cheer.
That, in my opinion, is the mark of a good writer, and he's one of the best. He ought to be--he's been doing it a long time. And he doesn't just write. He goes to workshops with other excellent writers. He compares his work and theirs. He gives and accepts critiques. He teaches students. He tries new things and merges them with old techniques. He's always working to make his writing better. And he thinks long and hard about things before he publishes them. I don't find myself wondering about loose ends that he forgot to wrap up as much as with some authors.
I remember participating in several on-line polls about what was the best fiction book people had ever read. It was pretty consistent that about 7 out of 10 would choose Ender's Game. That was pretty impressive to me. Now that was about 5 years ago, and there have been some pretty good fiction books come out since then, but I expect it would still be pretty high in the rankings. I know I've bought 4 copies myself because I tend to lose them when I lend them to nieces and nephews who get old enough to enjoy it.
Anyway, before you diss ALL of his non-fiction writing, read this.
It boggles my mind as to how a member of one oft-persecuted minority group (Mormons) can justify persecuting another minority group.
Mormons don't persecute homosexuals. Mormons teach that homosexuality is sinful, and in many cases excommunicate members who practice homosexuality, just as they excommunicate members who practice heterosexuality outside of marriage, but that is a great deal different than "persecution".
For that matter, Mormons don't really receive much persecution these days, either.
Note to ACs: I usually delete AC replies without reading them. If you want to talk to me, log in.
Remember, there are no true synonyms in our language. Ethics and morality are close, but not the same.
Here's the thing--homosexuality is normal now. That makes people like you insecure, for some reason. And that insecurity makes people like me happy. I'm kind of an asshole that way, but what can I say? I really hate misoneism.
How do I know you're afraid? Because you seem to have spent a great deal of time researching one side of an issue you claim not to care about. You said they were "representative", so I guess that means I'm supposed to imagine there are a great deal more studies like these. It's interesting to note that these only "refute" the Gay Press (does the musical score in your head change ominously when you say those two words?), if you're assuming a rigid hetero/homo dichotomy--which is silly. If you start out thinking that there is a spectrum of sexualities that people are born with (the received view), then none of these studies refute that. You may have read more science, but it would have helped if you'd occasional taken a break and actually thought about what you'd read. Not really possible, given your level of bitterness. You might want to work on that first. Try some yoga or drinking tea. This is me being condescending, because I like to agitate you ignorant, fearful people. Sorry.
Furthermore, it is evident that "gay marriage" - at least among male homosexuals - is not equivalent to heterosexual marraige in an important respect. Namely, it is rarely, if ever, monogamous.
And might the fact a great deal of people feel the need to put gay marriage in scare quotes, suggesting its not a real marriage, have something to do with that? Or could it be self-fulfilling prophecy--we've painted homosexuality as something deviant, so now deviants are disproportionately more likely to admit their sexuality? Or might you be overestimating the monogamy of heterosexual unions?
Or, might it be none of your damn business whether they're actually monogamous or not--it's certainly not your business when we're talking about heterosexual couples, why do you feel a need to punish all homosexuals for the cheating or rule bending of a few? Do you have evidence that married gays are LESS monogamous that non-married gay couples? Any decrease in promiscuous sex of any subgroup is of public health benefit.
Plenty of heterosexuals get married only to adopt or remain childless. I see no reason why homosexuals ought not to do the same. Would they be ideal parents? No, but no living flesh and blood person is an ideal parent.
There was no sense in which homosexuality was regarded as an alternative to heterosexuality - instead, it was regarded as a fling, something that one did when young and with the young. (And, frankly, if you look up any authoritative source on this you will find this out. I'm not makign this up.
You are trying to tell me that there are no cases of exclusive homosexuality throughout history?
Perhaps you truly aren't homophobic. Or perhaps you are--you aren't helping yourself with the "I have lots of black friends" defense. But your insecurity seems more directed at some perceived academic and/or leftist orthodoxy. You are determined to prove--not only that you are learned, but that you are more learned than the other fellow. Perhaps you're a very gifted individual who missed a key opportunity in academia. To redeem yourself, you found a piece of somewhat uninhabited memetic turf (territory that people like me deemed to be bigoted) and built a fortress of logic and citations to sit upon it. You sit atop it and sing the praises of all that you have read. (And more importantly, that other people have NOT read.)
But a fortress of logic is a foolish thing
Having talked with Teppy about this, he notes that the "citizens" number does not include all subscribers, since there are many people who have accounts who have never bothered to make the characters on the citizens (mules, etc.). I've been unable to determine what the real number of "subscribers" are as of yet. Certainly the citizen number should be looked at as a lower bound for that number.
Bruce
This is one of the best articulated comments you are likely to read on /. and yet someone modded it down... while the bigot was modded up?
What an odd occurance.
Posting un-anonymously because I don't care if I burn more karma on this sort of thing.
I would remind you that even hard proof that a characteristic can change does not inform, one way or another, any question as to whether it should change.
A strain of paranoid prevention can be worse than the disease, whate'er the intention.
This is an example.
Thomas Carlyle is an awesome writer. Wonderful. He has a clear insight into human understanding and a wonderful way with the language. If you need evidence of this, read Sartor Resartus or Past and Present.
Carlyle also wrote a vehemently racist tract called The Nigger Question. In it he exhibits none of the graceful arguments, the eloquent expressions, the overall clarity of his other works. He rambles. He says the same things over and over. He attacks the reader. He comes to no conclusions in the entire torturous, drawn-out speech. Suddenly, Carlyle seems like a very poor author.
I've noticed this in other places too: people seem to lose their ability to express themselves when they feel strongly about something, especially when their argument forces them to judge or dictate the actions of other people. So while the quality of Card's writing overall might not be hurt by it, I'm willing to bet that this particular essay represents something less than the height of his abilities.
A strain of paranoid prevention can be worse than the disease, whate'er the intention.
"You're a thing that babies suck on?"
"No, dude. That's a pedophile."
[Red vs Blue]
You obviously havn't read their bible. Either way they don't see themselves so much as a minority, as God's few choosen people.
Jumping to the assumption that the AC is gay simply serves to prove his point, doesn't it?
What does sexual orientation have to do with being able to read what you wrote in your second sentence : "I am...homophobic" ? *I'm* not gay, yet when I read that, I too thought, oh, woman_mir is homophobic. *Because he said so himself*.
I should know better than to respond to you - your sig makes it obvious what a cunt you are, even if you weren't already on my foes list.