Microsoft in 2008

r.jimenezz writes "Over at Wired there's an entertaining article written by Gary Wolf. It purports to be a memo written by a 2008-Microsoft-employed Linus Torvalds to Bill, arguing against Steve Ballmer's desire to go back to the untenable OS monopoly proposition instead of the 'new order': Windows is now some sort of desktop environment on top of an open OS!"

Comments

far away ...

[siropel]

2008 ...hmmm ...what microsoft ? ...

Re:far away ...

[stupidfoo]

MS just made $10 billion in a single quarter. They're not going anywhere anytime soon.

Re:far away ...

[Anonymous Coward]

I know you're just a stupid troll and I shouldn't answer but all my machines have an uptime of more than 3 months. Where is this bug you've seen?

Re:far away ...

[ratsg]

What nasty bug? I have a Cobalt box that has been up for over a year.

Re:far away ...

[Anonymous Coward]

Is that the same bug that crashed the FAA's Windows server at the air traffic control center in LA and left a whole bunch of planes flying around without traffic control?

OTOH, I think that was a programmer's fault for using the wrong timing routine.

My uptime is 127 days on my Linux server... what bug?

Re:far away ...

[Anonymous Coward]

I have an old desktop PC (P400,Homebuilt) thats been up for 153 days. I use it to monitor power outages, for example, my power has been on for 153 days, 5 hours, and 50+ minutes. I know because: $ uptime 6:24pm up 153 days, 5:52, 6 users, load average: 2.41, 1.46, 1.19 $

Re:far away ...

[fallstorm]

Try again, Microsoft troll... After 49.7 days of continuous operation, your Windows-based computer may stop responding (hang).

OK

[northcat]

Can it get any more horny than this?

Re:OK

[Anonymous Coward]

> Can it get any more horny than this?

Indeed it can, my friend. Since we're discussing Microsoft, you'll find it can get longhorny. Ha ha ha.

Ha ha.... [glances worriedly at walking stick emerging from the side of the stage]... uh, ha ha ha ha.. ha ha... haa... GLUCK!

Re:OK

[Anonymous Coward]

you are a tit

Old News for Nerds

[Anonymous Coward]

This was posted all over the internet days ago... Thanks again slashdot for proving your irrelevance!

Re:Old News for Nerds

[stupidfoo]

It was also posted in my free subscription of Wired. Complete with pretty photos and nice big paper!

Re:Old News for Nerds

[Anonymous Coward]

The problem with the internet is you can't go crack skulls when people do something stupid.

Re:Old News for Nerds

[Alien54]

posted all over the internet days ago...

Come on now. I for one can't resist a line like this

He still dreams of a Pax Microsoftius, where you and he reign benevolently over a kingdom of happy, captive users.

Isn't there some in crowd that you are not part of yet?

Re:Old News for Nerds

[aichpvee]

You usually don't get away with doing that outside of the internet either. So other than the possible threat of doing so I don't see the difference.

Wha...?

[Primotech]

Microsoft...Open Source...? As entertaining as this article is, the chances of such things materializing are thin.

Re:Wha...?

[superpulpsicle]

1.) NWO = New Windows OS

2.) William Gates III in ascii code sums up to 666.

3.) M$ commercials of "where do you want to go today" actually plays some song in the background where certain tones match satanic worshipping.

Seriously if M$ became opensource, it wouldn't be any more crazy than any of the above.

Re:Wha...?

[Em Ellel]

Microsoft...Open Source...? As entertaining as this article is, the chances of such things materializing are thin.

Closed desktop on top of open OS may not be as far fetched as you'd think. Apple has done exactly that with OSX and not like MS never stole ideas from Apple (which is not specific to MS either)....

-Em

Re:Wha...?

[Anonymous Coward]

The difference is Microsoft have a very good core operating system already, where as Apple repeatedly failed in their attempts to develop one from the ground up, and eventually concluded they'd have to buy one.

The problem with Windows isn't the OS (i.e. the kernel-mode modules), it's the Win32 API, which was designed in a rush in the early 1990s, when Microsoft fell out with IBM and dumped the OS/2 API (which was pretty bad too). In addition to having been designed in a rush, Win32 was made similar to Win16, so that 16-bit Windows developers could easily port their software to NT. That meant its designers had to loosely follow an API designed in the 1980s, which was never a particularly good design, but had become very popular (for various reasons).

The strength of Win32 was in moving existing Windows developers from DOS/Win3.x/Win9x to NT, and in that respect it was a very good move by Microsoft. However, it's become something of a liability over time, since it limits Microsoft's flexibility to take advantange of all the advances since the late 1980s and early 1990s.

Microsoft could replace Win32 with a new subsystem/API, which would sort of be following Apple's lead in replacing the classic Mac OS API with Cocoa (and Carbon for directly porting old applications). However, Microsoft would be crazy to replace the NT kernel with something else, since NT was designed from the beginning to support multiple OS personalities, is amongst the best production kernels around and has unparalleled device support.

Unfortunately, Microsoft's current efforts seem to be based on building new layers (e.g. .NET) above Win32, which means the new layers also suffer to some extent from the deficiencies of Win32. With the death of Windows 9x, that could change, since Win32 was the common denominator between Windows 9x/Me and Windows NT/2000/XP/2003, but there's no sign of it yet.

Re:Wha...?

[aichpvee]

I can download OSX minus the GUI? Hook me up, brother!

Re:Wha...?

[argent]

Microsoft...Open Source...? As entertaining as this article is, the chances of such things materializing are thin.

That's what I thought when Steve Walli told me Microsoft would never buy Softway Systems and bury Interix. Oh, sure, they had a great product... but it used GCC, for heavens' sake! Steve Ballmer says GCC is the devil!

Boy, was I ever wrong. Not only did they buy Softway Systems (I got that right), but they shipped Interix... and they're shipping it for free!

Never again will I argue that Microsoft will "never" pull clue out of thin air. One day, they might even fix Internet Explorer and retire ActiveX...

You say that I'm a dreamer?

Well, I'm not the only one...

Re:Wha...?

[Anonymous Coward]

Enjoy!

Re:Wha...?

[Em Ellel]

I can download OSX minus the GUI? Hook me up, brother!

Yeh, it is called BSD (specifically OS X branch is called Darwin I believe) Google it.

-Em

Re:Wha...?

[Anonymous Coward]

True enough, but according to the architect of Interix, MS are working to replace all the open-source tools in Interix with the original UNIX versions (hence the UNIX licence from SCO). The GNU-free version will then be included in Longhorn Server.

http://www.pcw.co.uk/news/1156587

I read this and found it to be terribly funny

[Zphbeeblbrox]

and yet somehow totally unrealistic. I can't see Linus fitting in that kind of a work environment. Not that I know that much about Microsoft work environments.

Also surely this isn't a first post?

Re:I read this and found it to be terribly funny

[syukton]

Since I have first-hand knowledge of Microsoft work environments as that's where I'm sitting right at this very moment, I'll enlighten you about the good parts, and the bad. (Disclaimer: I am not employed by Microsoft; however I am on a contract at their Redmond location, and for anybody keeping track: I'm on lunch right now. :p )

First, there's the free drinks. Every building has at least one Kitchen. In my building, on my floor alone, there are 2. On floors 2 and 3 there are 2 more kitchens each, for a total of 6 in the building. In each kitchen is the type of floor-standing refrigerator you'd see at the grocery store or a 7-11, the kind they keep soft drinks in. Well, much like the grocery store or 7-11, just about every soft drink you could want is in there. Every "Coke" and "Pepsi" variant, Root Beer, Nestea, Dr. Pepper, different juices (cranberry, grapefruit, grape, apple, orange, V8), skim/2%/whole/chocolate milk, a variety of Talking Rain, and so forth. Not to mention the 12 flavors of Tea and a similarly diverse variety of coffee. Are you powered by mountain dew? Your batteries will never run low at Microsoft.

Second, there's the hours. Want to come in at 10am? ok, come in at 10. Want to work the weekend? no prob, you've got 24 hour building access thanks to your security badge. When you get sick of sitting at your desk, you can walk down the hall to a fooseball or ping-pong table and take a breather. Or, if you're in a building with an atrium (like mine) you can go sit there and read for a while. They don't micro-manage you, they like assigning people tasks and then letting those people handle those tasks independently.

So I'm a perl wizard (I have a beard and a hat too!) and I can do things with perl that is beyond the comprehension of most of the people I work with. Which is absolutely fine, really, because it takes me about an hour to accomplish something that would take 4 hours for them to do by hand. I tell them it'll take two hours and I've still got an extra hour to read slashdot.

I've never once had somebody look over my shoulder, and I work in a cube farm. There's 40 cubes in this room, and they aren't even cubes so much as the partitioned desks you see in a call center. Nobody is walking up behind me to check in on me. I produce my deliverables and they show me their gratitude.

Now, the downsides... Nothing works, and that's OK. Or rather, when something doesn't work the way it SHOULD work, people just shrug it off and accept it. The internal network can at some times be as slow as a 56k modem, and that's OK. (I'm not making this up, I speed-tested it) When the tools crash persistently day after day? That's OK. There's a standard of established mediocrity within the company's internal tools that probably serves to reinforce their release of crappy products. This is pretty much the only downside really, and I could see Linus doing his fair share to alleviate this problem at least in the division in which he would be working.

A minor downside is the "independent work" thing I mentioned above. Sometimes tasks get subdivided to the point where you've got 4 people working on a one-man job and the only way to accomplish anything is to have all 4 of those people in the same room at the same time, which can be a daunting task to accomplish. But this is really quite trivial compared to the acceptance of mediocrity that seems to pervade the campus.

Re:I read this and found it to be terribly funny

[jc42]

I can't see Linus fitting in that kind of a work environment.

Oh, I dunno. I mean, personally, if billg were to offer me $1,000,000 per year (real money, not options ;-), and control over who I had working for me, I'd probably agree to lead a port of the Windows environment to linux.

Of course, I'd watch my back, and be ready to jump ship on short notice. I'd be assuming that it was a PR ruse, to be scuttled at some time in the future. I'd be in it for the money, and on the off chance that I could pull it off before they scuttled it.

I can see Linus thinking similarly. And remember his advice to only do something if it's fun. Such a project could be a lot of fun, if you refused to take it seriously and ignored the politics.

Actually, a lot has been written about Microsoft's organizational style. It could be interesting to see the interaction between them and Linus's organizational style. I wouldn't imagine that he would adopt their style ...

Re:I read this and found it to be terribly funny

[Anonymous Coward]

Wait, backup. Your ethics allow you to work your weekends at MS HQ? Also, these "other" people you speak of as well, do they have a pulse or a soul?

Re:I read this and found it to be terribly funny

[painandgreed]

You forgot to mention that there's no dress code. I've had plenty of friends who have worked there either party all night and have to show up at work in "club clothes" or get dressed so they could head straight out to a concert after work. Others tell me how people show up every day in everything from dirty slackwear to high goth attire.

Re:I read this and found it to be terribly funny

[Anonymous Coward]

When you get sick of sitting at your desk, you can walk down the hall to a fooseball or ping-pong table and take a breather. Or, if you're in a building with an atrium (like mine) you can go sit there and read for a while.

Don't forget volleyball. During the summer we played about twice a week over in RedWest.

I work in a cube farm.

What building and team where you on that you worked in a cube farm? In every* place I've seen everyone gets an office or at worst shares a large office with one other person.

*The one exception was Bungie who made their own decision not to change the corporate culture that they already had prior to becoming part of MS.

Re:I read this and found it to be terribly funny

[rindeee]

And people wonder where the acceptance of mediocrity comes from. It's a way of life. In work. In dress. In attitude. Sorry, not my scene.

Re:I read this and found it to be terribly funny

[Ibanez]

Interestingly enough, when I worked at Dell, I felt the same about their internal tools. They were always poorly designed, and the "new" stuff would simply be a poorly designed, but prettier, application on top of the old poorly designed application.

These were used by and far by the phone sales people, but since I consider myself a decent programmer (college job), I was always appalled that someone would write something like that and except credit for it.

Blake

Re:I read this and found it to be terribly funny

[LilMikey]

We're slacks and ties in the IT department here (Friday you can wear short sleaved collars though!) and we're still exceptionally mediocre. I imagine I'd be no less mediocre if I could dress the way I wished.

Re:I read this and found it to be terribly funny

[Anonymous Coward]

And where the shit do you work? The fucking White House?

Loosen up, suit.

Re:I read this and found it to be terribly funny

[i41Overlord]

And people wonder where the acceptance of mediocrity comes from. It's a way of life. In work. In dress. In attitude. Sorry, not my scene.

Yeah, your capabilities are directly related to the way that you're dressed at that moment. If they wore business suits they would code so much better. Have you ever seen Superman do anything special when he's dressed like Clark Kent? Me neither. It's that suit that gives him all the power.

So good post.

Re:I read this and found it to be terribly funny

[Winkhorst]

Windows is an environment? I thought it was a box....

Seriously though, you still can't drag and drop to a writable CD without a $100 add-on program, and they're gonna sell THAT as an environment? Don't make me gag.

Re:I read this and found it to be terribly funny

[Anonymous Coward]

And people wonder where the acceptance of superficiality comes from. It's a way of life. In work. In dress. In attitude, Sorry, not my scene.

Re:I read this and found it to be terribly funny

[Anonymous Coward]

grow up script kiddie

Re:I read this and found it to be terribly funny

[bladesjester]

It really depends on the mentality of the person more than the clothing or the setting. Some people use certain types of clothing to get into a "work" frame of mind. Others can only seem to get work done in their office and not when they work from home.

With me, it's not so much what I wear or where I am but rather that I sort of mentally designate the place as somewhere to do work instead of play games or read slashdot.

Re:I read this and found it to be terribly funny

[ray-auch]

WTF ?

Windows has done drag-n-drop to writeable cds for years.

The $100 add-on might give you a few more options on formats etc., but to just stick some files on a cd, all you need is windows.

Re:I read this and found it to be terribly funny

[Anonymous Coward]

What are you talking about?

Apparently you don't like free tools for burning CDs?

You can have drag and drop built in, or you can use some other free tools. Paying $100 is not a requirement for burning CDs.

Re:I read this and found it to be terribly funny

[Blakey Rat]

Apple used to employ a (male) engineer who came to work in a dress. Col. Klinger-style. And their products seem to be pretty good...

(My source here is Gil Amelio's book about his time as CEO of Apple. Suffice it to say Amelio's style of management couldn't really handle men who came to work in dresses... and while he was CEO, Apple's products were generally the worst they'd ever been.)

Re:I read this and found it to be terribly funny

[Winkhorst]

If you say so.... And there are still people who don't believe in alternate realities!

Re:I read this and found it to be terribly funny

[Anonymous Coward]

But this is really quite trivial compared to the acceptance of mediocrity that seems to pervade the campus.

I suppose that is the way it is when you have something that might best be done by one or two, such as Wright Bros, Einstein, Bell, Pasteur, etc, and they want an entire building of people working on "it".

One has to realize that Windows works because the computers in the store have it installed on hardware that was designed or tested to work with the Windows system, and drivers, etc.

Imagine just going into the store and turning on any computer and the desktop comes up quickly, and everything, sound, "X" works. That's Windows for you! (Since Windows 3.1)

I have tried a bunch of live cd linux distros lately, and a lot of them do come up to a desktop (eventually), but most do not have sound, especially on a box designed to run XP, for instance. One wonders if Microsoft had the PC builder "arrange" the configuration of the hardware to be "unfriendly to linux", or something. It's as though Microsoft had a copy of Knoppix to work with. I have a Dell that came with XP, and the hard drive device locations are weird, not your usual /dev/hda1.
As a Perl wizard, you might want to start your own company one day. Apparently all those perks are a lot to enjoy, and just being with lots of interesting people has a human touch that we cannot ignore. Running your own company or going out on your own would be lonely, and full of complicated responsibility, so much so, that doing what you do best, being a Perl wizard, would not be what you would do all day.

Unfortunately, we might require other's approval in order to feel worthwhile in this life, even if we often look down on some of them. That would chain us to working in a big company rather than a small or individual work environment.

One has to realize our human frailties for what they are. None of that bothered Einstein, apparently, and his wife felt neglected, according to a biography I skimmed through. Something drives some creators of new things, ideas, etc. that leaves them rather antisocial in some cases.

So, you have both sides of the lives of creative geniuses, and you seem to be on the healthy side of it, with others around you to keep you more human.

Re:I read this and found it to be terribly funny

[Anonymous Coward]

Klinger in M*A*S*H wasn't a colonel. He was a corporal.

Re:I read this and found it to be terribly funny

[Anonymous Coward]

Sales and PSS down in SAMM are in cubes... kind of a debate about whether the cross teaming versus distraction is a benefit. My team is split about 50/50 on the issue. hopefully we'll move to the new campus in redmond in the next year and cut my commute time down.

Re:I read this and found it to be terribly funny

[flacco]

Since I have first-hand knowledge of Microsoft work environments as that's where I'm sitting right at this very moment, I'll enlighten you about the good parts, and the bad. (Disclaimer: I am not employed by Microsoft; however I am on a contract at their Redmond location, and for anybody keeping track: I'm on lunch right now. :p )

heh, i stopped reading there - that's all i need to know :-)

Re:I read this and found it to be terribly funny

[flacco]

And people wonder where the acceptance of mediocrity comes from. It's a way of life. In work. In dress. In attitude. Sorry, not my scene.

so i assume your work slacks are specially tailored to accommodate the stick up your ass?

Re:I read this and found it to be terribly funny

[Anonymous Coward]

This is so wrong it's almost cute - and I say this about three minutes after I did a drag and drop to a balnk cd in explorer. You don't have to believe me of course, but I'll leave you with some PKD:
"Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away."

Re:I read this and found it to be terribly funny

[operagost]

Have you even seen Windows XP?

Re:I read this and found it to be terribly funny

[arivanov]

Unrealistic? So WTF did Apple do with OSX?

True, I do not see Balmer doing it, but there is no particular reason for someone else to do it if put at the MSFT helm. It actually makes business sense, I would have used BSD for the purpose. They lift large chunks of code of it quite often anyway so in fact they have the experience of doing this (if you do not believe it find somewhere a full list of NT5/W2K betas and follow the TCP stack fingerprints around 1998-1999).

Re:I read this and found it to be terribly funny

[Anonymous Coward]

"Nothing works, and that's OK. Or rather, when something doesn't work the way it SHOULD work, people just shrug it off and accept it. ... There's a standard of established mediocrity within the company's internal tools that probably serves to reinforce their release of crappy products. This is pretty much the only downside really, and I could see Linus doing his fair share to alleviate this problem at least in the division in which he would be working."

I've worked as a volunteer developer on open source projects, and I have to say the same thing is generally true. Apart from security flaws, unless a problem directly affects the developers of the system, a major "customer" or will produce bad publicity, developers often can't be bothered to fix it. I think it's just the way most developers are, from Microsoft to GNU and everywhere in between.

Re:I read this and found it to be terribly funny

[Zphbeeblbrox]

I didn't say microsoft wouldn't consider it. I just couldn't see Linus doing it. Based on his style of work and what "little" I know about microsoft work practices.

Re:I read this and found it to be terribly funny

[painandgreed]

Simply put, dress codes are unprofessional. It's classic function follows form. By having strick dress codes, companies exclude parts of the talent pool who might are willing to work elsewhere at places without dress codes. Those employees who do take the jobs must use their own finances to buy said clothing and must pay more than companies that don't to make up for the difference. The only reason for dress codes is to make the MBAs feel good aobut themselves. I'm unaware of any study that says you get better productivity out of employees who must wear ties. The only excuse I've heard is so that people don't cause a distraction or cause friction within their workgroup. Thing is that if people in a workgroup can't overcome the way somebody else dresses, then they're really not going to be able to overcome any actual personel issues that may hinder a project.

Re:I read this and found it to be terribly funny

[Winkhorst]

I paid $400 for fucking Windows XP. And how long did it take the vaunted Microsoft Corporation to get to this point of advanced computer development? How many fucking iterations of this pathetic little OS did I have to buy either directly or indirectly before I got one that even did something as simple as a drag and drop to a CD? And you think this is some kind of terrific breakthrough do you? Jesus Christ, you arrogant little jackass who thinks the world was created the day before you were born, apparently sometime in the late 1980s.

Troll? You haven't seen a troll yet, SONNY! Screw Off!

Re:OK (Microsoft/Linus pr0n??)

[GeorgeMcBay]

Can it get any more horny than this?


I've heard of some sick fetishes (I do have access to the Internet, after all), but you take the cake, my friend!

Joy!

[Anonymous Coward]

Another MS vs. Linux article. FUN!!!!

to summarize

[Anonymous Coward]

if you dont want to read, i'll summarize:

Bill Gates: "'Developers! Developers! Developers! Developers!' I'm fucking sick and tired of it so i had to fire him and you were the best replacement i could find"

Re:to summarize

[nacturation]

An even better summary:

wynx.org is available

Let's see how long it lasts.

Linus needs to watch who he associates with.

[numbski]

I think he's been hanging out with John Titor a bit too much lately. ;)

Re:Linus needs to watch who he associates with.

[zoeith]

What happens to Microsoft (and its billions) in Titor's future?

This IS entertaining

[Staplerh]

It's entertaining. I don't think I would mod the article 'Insightful' or 'Interesting', but I would mod it 'Funny'. A choice snippet (taken out of context no doubt, but still)

You never made me alter my goal, which was world domination for Linux. I'll never forget your line: "Come on, Linus, infect the mothership." I still believe that was the best recruiting pitch ever uttered. We both took a lot of criticism from our partisans, but look what we've accomplished.

Inflect the mothership? Just writing this makes me chuckle. Seems kind of creepy, and dare I say, 'borgish'. Oh well, I suppose getting co-opted by Mothership Microsoft had somehow warped the psuedo-Torvald's mind.

Re:This IS entertaining

[GeorgeMcBay]

Infect the mothership?


The article lost all credibility with me with the infect the mothership line. Everybody knows you need to use a Mac to infect the mothership.

Re:This IS entertaining

[nadadogg]

Nah, I was thinking more along the lines of infecting the mothership, borg-style.

Re:This IS entertaining

[wpmegee]

I think you're looking for assimilating the mothership.

Re:This IS entertaining

[Mattintosh]

I somehow twisted that "infect the mothership" thing into a sexual proposition. In which case it really gets creepy.

Bumsex is a bad enough topic without Bill Gates or Linus Torvalds in the mix.

Re:This IS entertaining

[RedWizzard]

Just writing this makes me chuckle.

It doesn't read like Linus' writing. So it doesn't really work for me.

Re:This IS entertaining

[Thegreaser01]

lost credibility...on a hypothetical article? interesting

Re:This IS entertaining

[rdwald]

Well, if you're using OS X to infect the mothership, then maybe you can get the Unix-like core to do the real work, then port that to Linux.

Re:This IS entertaining

[novakyu]

Well, if you're using OS X to infect the mothership, then maybe you can get the Unix-like core to do the real work, then port that to Linux.

Well, the problem is, it only works under MacOS Classic---it wouldn't have anything to do with *nix.

Re:This IS entertaining

[ArmenTanzarian]

if Bill asked me to infect the mothership, I'd probably sue him for sexual harassment.

Revealing....the name for the new X-Box:

[texasfight]

WinX

Go back to coding!

[flibuste]

Nice piece of useless writing. Thinking that people actually spend time writing those things. I wonder what silicon they smoke

Re:Go back to coding!

[Spy der Mann]

I wonder what silicon they smoke

It's called "free time". Envious? ;-)

Re:Go back to coding!

[garcia]

Well, you might have been trying to be funny but it was modded insightful which it isn't.

Creative writing is interesting and the thoughts behind the piece were definitly thought provoking.

Re:Go back to coding!

[pploco]

Dude lighten up. Its funny!

Thats great...

[Devalia]

....but can they tell me next weeks lottery numbers?

BULL!!!

[I_am_Rambi]

But now it's time to grow up. We've proven that users don't care what operating system lies beneath the surface. They care about the reliability and security of their working environment, about the investment they've made in learning how to use their computers, and about the feature-set in their applications. We are giving away the OS while selling WinX, and it looks like we've settled at 70 percent market share, from 90 percent.

I do care what OS is beneath the surface. There are many good and bad ways to implement different things. The OS has to deal with this more than a user. A user can somewhat tell if the implementation has an issue with speed. Not only are security and reliability and issue, but much more.

Yes, this is funny, but in reality I don't think that Linus would ever work at Microsoft. I think Bill would want to assimulate Linus if anything.

Re:BULL!!!

[igotmybfg]

I do care what OS is beneath the surface

Yeah, but the point is that most users don't - for them computers are just a tool, and if it works ok then they are happy.

Re:BULL!!!

[Anonymous Coward]

you mean assassinate?

Re:BULL!!!

[tu_holmes]

See, the thing is, everyone's idea of "working" is different.

Yes, we almost all use a web browser, and email application, but we don't all use a lot of the other things that constitute work.

Some people need a real office suite of applications, spreadsheets, document creation, work flow, and presenter tools. Others need good video or photo editing... Some even need an OS to play games (I know a guy who's a paid video game tester).

For each of us, "it working ok" is different, and so what's underneath really does count.

There's a reason why certain OS's seem to be more suited to certain things, and those reasons influence what people think of the OS.

Besides, why is "ok" good enough. We don't expect our cars to run "ok" (especially if they're just a year old or so) we expect them to run very well, or extremely well, or something along those lines.

I also think that users are changing. In 1996, one out of every 5 to 10 users barely knew where the CD-ROM tray was, but now, users are more savvy, and every minute someone is born who is 3 or 4 years will be on their computer for the first time.

Things are changing, and the majority of users, while not being "techies", are not completely computer moronic either.

Re:BULL!!!

[nine-times]

GP: ...users don't care what operating system lies beneath the surface.

P: I do care what OS is beneath the surface. There are many good and bad ways to implement different things. The OS has to deal with this more than a user. A user can somewhat tell if the implementation has an issue with speed. Not only are security and reliability and issue, but much more.

Yeah, but in general users don't care about the internals of an OS, as long as it works. One of the nice things (I think) about unixy OS's right now is that the OS and the DE are separable. You can mix and match Gnome, KDE, and XFce, etc. with Unix, BSD, Linux, etc. But, you can't (right now) have the full Windows DE with the applications over a Linux variant.

If it were universally possible to mix and match DEs and OSs, it would allow you to pick the best DE and the best OS for your purpose without penalty. That could be nice, even though the users themselves probably wouldn't know the difference.

Re:BULL!!!

[civilizedINTENSITY]

You don't care what OS is underneath it all, which has to mean you don't know what an OS does. Imagine a world where you can only use 8 characters for a file name. Would you care if you could only use 5? or 3? Stupid example to make a point, it *does* matter.

"I don't care what engine my car has as long as the interior is comfortable"...until you try to get on the freeway with 50cc pushing a minivan. It really does matter.

Re:BULL!!!

[Anonymous Coward]

In what universe is a computer NOT a tool?

Waaay out of context in fact.

[numbski]

"...infect the mothership..."

That's poking fun at the movie "Independence Day". The PowerBook that manages to establish an authenticated PPP session, get an IP address, transfer a virus to the alien host (pun intended), then REMOTELY EXECUTE IT.

Okay, yes, I'm a unix admin, mac user, network engineer, and the mere concept has my dying on the floor laughing as I watch the Classic environment do that.

Anyway, point is....I'm betting the author has watched that movie recently.

Re:Waaay out of context in fact.

[Blakey Rat]

Yeah, but it was a Powerbook 3400c... those things were pretty powerful.

Re:Waaay out of context in fact.

[Anonymous Coward]

I've been sitting here at my humanity-saving gig in front of a Mac (a 8600/300 w/64 Megs of RAM) for about 20 minutes now while it attempts to copy a 17 Meg virus from the harddrive into the mothership. 20 minutes. At home, on my Pentium Pro 200 running NT 4, which by all standards should be a lot slower than this Mac, the same operation would take about 2 minutes. If that.

In addition, during the extra-atmospheric flight, Netscape will not work. And everything else has ground to a halt. Even Lynx is straining to keep up as I type this.

Re:Waaay out of context in fact.

[EddWo]

Someone mod this up please, Its a classic.

Re:Waaay out of context in fact.

[operagost]

Don't forget about the cackling skull-and-crossbones. The virus must have been written in Flash.

Another one from the "Duh!" file

[phillymjs]

"Windows is now some sort of desktop environment on top of an open OS!"

Wow, so in the future they'll keep copying Apple. That's big news.

~Philly

Re:Another one from the "Duh!" file

[vought]

Damn, dude, you stole my comment. Good on ya'.

Re:Another one from the "Duh!" file

[smchris]

There's a mirror in here somewhere. You stole my reply to the comment.

It makes perfect sense: Why settle for Win4Lin? Why settle for VMWare? Why settle for WINE? When you can purchase genuine Virtual Windows (TM) and enjoy an authentic Microsoft Windows experience!

Re:Another one from the "Duh!" file

[Anonymous Coward]

Wow, so in the future they'll keep copying Apple. That's big news.

Well, of course, how the hell do you think they got so big in the first place? Innovation?

Re:Another one from the "Duh!" file

[Anonymous Coward]

Uh...they *should* be able to copy from Apple.

After all, they invested $150M in Apple in 1997. This served a dual purpose: invest in a company so that later they could 'borrow' concepts, and also to prop up an injured foe so that the international courts couldn't see just how bad MSFT was. If Apple had died in 1997/1998, I really think the IE/monopoly ruling would have turned out differently.

How quickly we forget.

Hell, Apple should be THANKING Microsoft.

Re:Another one from the "Duh!" file

[Amiasian]

It was more for publicity than anything else. The 150 M dollar investment was in non-voting shares, if I recall, and turned a rather hefty profit for MSFT when they were sold. So, they made a profit and still have a southside R&D. Apple, on the other hand, ended up with continued MS Office development. Don't really get why standard formats are so feared in corporate offices, but apparently that lock-in's a nice card for MSFT.

Re:Another one from the "Duh!" file

[TheRaven64]

Except that Apple's kernel was really poor in the Classic days. No pre-emptive multitasking, no protected memory. The Nu-Kernel had potential, but was still under development and the entire project was suffering from Duke Nukem Forever-style feature creep. OPENSTEP was a nice replacement for them, since it already came with a powerful GUI and could (relatively) easily be made Mac-like (after all, it was designed by some of the same people).

In contrast, the Windows NT kernel is of a high standard, although some limitations prevent it from scaling beyond 16 (I think. Maybe 32. I'm too lazy to check.) CPUs - not really a limitation anywhere other than high-throughput server space. Read Tanenbaum's Modern Operating Systems for more info. Almost nothing that's wrong with Windows is the result of the kernel (well, maybe the decision to move more drivers into ring 0 in recent versions) and so moving to a Linux kernel would be silly. The main flaws with Windows come from some design decisions at a higher level (win32 api) made before the Internet was in widespread use, and before the need to maintain backwards compatibility with some these design decisions (and even most 16-bit DOS/Windows code). Microsoft really need to do what Apple did with OS X, and run legacy code in an emulation layer, although in their case with a nice big sandbox around it. Coincidentally, I believe this is exactly what they are planning for Longhorn (which seems to be going the way of Copland at the moment...).

Steve is mad too!

[Anonymous Coward]

If Linus is so mad at Steve for calling WinX, "Winux", then Steve is probably mad at Linus for calling Longhorn, "Longtime".

This sounds like a bad soap...

Re:Steve is mad too!

[Anonymous Coward]

If Linus is so mad at Steve for calling WinX, "Winux", then Steve is probably mad at Linus for calling Longhorn, "Longtime". This sounds like a bad soap...

I reckon it's the first episode of a 'slash' fiction story featuring Bill Gates, Steve Ballmer and Linus Torvalds.

Hang on, that doesn't sound like a very pleasant prospect.

Long horn

[agent]

Name of MicroSofts's next OS?
Name of Bush's College, that they like to make goofy arm gestors for.
The goverment has a special version of Windows NT Technology.
Who's in bed together? The Long Horns.
Only what and what come from Texas?
Save yourself now.
http://www.apple.com/switch/

Re:Long horn

[Anonymous Coward]

Wait, you're saying Apple is the way out of overpriced corporate-marketed products? Um, what?

Re:Long horn

[bStrom]

Um, Bush went to Yale (Undergrad) and Harvard (MBA).

Re:Long horn

[Anonymous Coward]

> Um, Bush went to Yale (Undergrad) and Harvard (MBA).

George W. Bush did, but Jenna Bush went to the University of Texas in Austin. So "Bush" in this case was referring to her.

Re:Long horn

[Ohreally_factor]

No, he's saying that Apple will help you get in touch with your inner hetereosexual, you flaming faggot windows user. =)

Re:Long horn

[agent]

No, Ebay is. Apple does make a good product however.

And also,

[Gannoc]

In that same memo, it describes how Microsoft will create a sticker that attaches to the outside of your case that uses nanotechnology to intensa-mobilize the electron particles in your motherchips to make your computer run 10-15% faster after several reboots.

Re:And also,

[schon]

I think you've seen Terminator 3 too many times.

Re:And also,

[strider44]

I'm pretty sure it's a reference to yesterday's BatMax story.

Sony-Disney-MS

[flabbergast]

Finally, if you think that the Sony-Disney-MS deal is important, you better quiet Steve down

Danger Will Robinson, Danger!!! That's a scary idea, what would you call a company that is MS, Sony, and Disney? Disonysoft? Microney? AOL Time Warner?

Re:Sony-Disney-MS

[Thud457]

That's ok, ApPixBay will CRUSH THEM ALL!

Re:Sony-Disney-MS

[JudgeFurious]

You're one merger short of total domination.

That's "ApPixBayGoo" if you want to take on "SonDisSoft".

Re:Sony-Disney-MS

[mpathetiq]

The only possible answer:

Money

Re:Sony-Disney-MS

[Mattintosh]

ConGlomSysCorp.

If you don't get it, go play Escape Velocity.

Re:Sony-Disney-MS

[brasten]

Wow... it's the Appixbaygooians against the Sondissofties.

This is starting to sound like a kick-ass Science Fiction story... keep it up... :)

Re:Sony-Disney-MS

[hachete]

BgFtGrBstrds

Re:Sony-Disney-MS

[nic barajas]

Could be worse. Could be Googlezon.

Re:Sony-Disney-MS

[Ohreally_factor]

ApPixBay crush International Googlezon? That's the funniest thing I've heard since the failed Starbucks-Fox merger.

Re:Sony-Disney-MS

[bhsx]

I have to reply here, as this has been my signature for the last few months...

The REAL Microsoft in 2008

[jimbolaya]

They finally ship Longhorn.

Re:The REAL Microsoft in 2008

[ceeam]

You are eternal optimist, right? (Trivia Q: what year what has become known as Win2k was initially scheduled to ship at?)

Re:The REAL Microsoft in 2008

[Slur]

The reference to "Longtime" in the article was cute, but lately I've adopted a more cutting name for the system under development that seems to capture more of its true essence:

Longtooth!

I've been watching too many movies

[ChipMonk]

From TFA:

You told me that if I ever hit a wall with Steve or his people, I should let you know.

Somehow, the image of Linus Torvalds grabbing Steve Ballmer and swinging him like a bat at a brick wall, Neo-vs.-Smith style.... It's a good thing I didn't have any soda in my mouth when I read that.

Re:I've been watching too many movies

[T-Ranger]

I chose to read the few first paragraphs as Steve Jobs.

Hack Writing

[TempusMagus]

That article was bad. I don't want to be unusally cruel - but 10th graders are above using such a narrative advice. I think the author hamfistedly confused improbablity with insight.

Re:Hack Writing

[Anonymous Coward]

Narrative Device - A way of telling a story
Narrative Advice - proofread your posts

Re:Hack Writing

[Anonymous Coward]

Advice? You mean a narrative device.

I would posit that someone with your limited grasp of the English language not proffer advice.

It was a puff piece that both entertained and contained an implicit joke about Microsoft yet again following in Apple's footsteps. Fiction, get it? Fiction?

I was assimulated by Microsoft..

[adeyadey]

and all I got was this lousy tee-shirt!

Re:I was assimulated by Microsoft..

[Anonymous Coward]

I was assimulated by Microsoft..

Not completely, it seems. They forgot to install the spellchecker.

Re:I was assimulated by Microsoft..

[gardyloo]

I was assimulated by Microsoft..

Not completely, it seems. They forgot to install the spellchecker.

True. But the ass-emulator seems to be working fine!

Re:I was assimulated by Microsoft..

[Anonymous Coward]

Well spotted. Is this you? http://www.theonion.com/opinion/index.php?issue=41 04&o=2

Oh my god!

[aurb]

I don't want to live in such a world! Please, someone kill me NOW!

Make a point

[Anonymous Coward]

form the article:

[...]But Firefox taught people that you could replace pieces of the Windows desktop with open source software. That was a crack in the seamless facade.

Dear Bill

[jwegy]

Tell Steve that it is Gnu/Winx, not Winux. Thanks, Linus ;-P

Re:Dear Bill

[Anonymous Coward]

Actually:

Dear Bill,

Tell Steve that it is GNU/WinX, not Winux.

Thanks,
RMS
GNU/WinX License Manager
Microsoft Corporation

But what about Debian/NT?

[argent]

I mean, the old NT codebase has some interesting capabilities. What about building a Debian/NT on top of it?

Re:But what about Debian/NT?

[LuckyStarr]

Just as you think it could not get any weirder...

Re:But what about Debian/NT?

[argent]

You think I'm kidding? Microsoft's already shipping a BSD port.

Re:But what about Debian/NT?

[nizo]

Microsoft's SFU tools, am I the only one who thought it was STFU tools when first reading it?

Re:But what about Debian/NT?

[KiloByte]

Don't laugh so loud, grasshopper.

Check out debian-win32. It hasn't seem much action in years, but the concept isn't that new.
Unfortunately, win32 differs so much from posix that emulating the needed parts, although possible (mostly), makes programs work at an unacceptable speed. Win32 doesn't even have fork().

Re:But what about Debian/NT?

[LuckyStarr]

First, I dont think you are kidding. It is my opinion that porting debian (or any other distro) to the (still closed source) NT-Kernel is a total
waste of time and effort. It would (at best) remain a niche-product. More likely the project would face legal threats from Microsoft.

And... by the way: SFU does not qualify as an OS.

Re:But what about Debian/NT?

[argent]

No I don't think you are.

Re:But what about Debian/NT?

[argent]

SFU does not qualify as an OS.

Interix is a port of the OpenBSD userland and a BSD-based enhancement of the POSIX subsystem to the NT kernel, It's as much an OpenBSD port as Debian GNU/OpenBSD is a Debian port.

Re:But what about Debian/NT?

[Foolhardy]

That's why SFU isn't built on top of Win32, but the kernel's native API, which does fork() just fine. So does SFU; it uses the native API.
The NT kernel was designed from the beginning to support different environments, including POSIX and Win32. Each environment subsystem consists of a server process that maintains common state specific to the environment, and a set of client libraries that translate the environment's API to the native API and calls to the server. Win32 is an environment subsystem and so is SFU.

For some reason, cygwin (which debian-win32 uses) insists on using only Win32, so they have to resort to kludges to make certain things like fork() work.
Now that SFU is free, I don't see why debian-win32 couldn't use that instead of cygwin.

As it stands, Interop Systems has the best collection of packages for SFU. Most of the essential stuff is there, but it's still a far cry from Debian's library.

Re:But what about Debian/NT?

[dago]

... just grab some code from Intergraph and install Debian/NT on you Sun SPARC ...

Re:But what about Debian/NT?

[Anonymous Coward]

The NetBSD pkgsrc tree (similar to FreeBSD's ports tree) is also available for Interix, although only a relatively small number actually build so far:

http://www.pkgsrc.org/

There's also a set of prebuilt packages available:

ftp://ftp.netbsd.org/pub/pkgsrc/packages/Interix -3 .5/i386/current/

Help needed with VM manager

[Anonymous Coward]

Hi,

I am the one responsible for the VM manager in Linux. I am currently having some difficulties with some of the internals. Can someone point me to the source of W2K?

Thanks in advance.

Re:Help needed with VM manager

[Anonymous Coward]

Ha ha ha, wow, that's soooo 2.4 of you. Oops, my W2K box just p0wn3d, back to work!

Microsoft 2000-whatever

[Ars-Fartsica]

Like any corporation that has survived and thrived due to a monopoly, it will never change and will take a very long time to die. See AT&T for a useful analogue.

Re:Microsoft 2000-whatever

[Anonymous Coward]

Hmmm, ATT's problem wasn't the inability to make the shift from monopoly to just another phone company. Their problem - like that of MANY American corporations - is abysmally bad management, from the top down and everywhere in between. Look at HP and Compaq - neither of which qualified as monopolies.

Re:Microsoft 2000-whatever

[Rimbo]

Isn't AT&T about to get bought out by one of its former subsidiaries, SBC (formerly Southwestern Bell)?

Re:Microsoft 2000-whatever

[pjt48108]

AT&T didn't die. It was knocked unconscious and cut into pieces.

It was broken up by the government, and thank goodness for that.

Re:Microsoft 2000-whatever

[slashdot_commentator]

It depends on the leadership and corporate mentality. I was most impressed with Microsoft's response to the Internet. They were big, flushed with the success of Windows 3.1 and NT, and initially laughed at the Internet and Netscape. Then one retreat Billy G. sits down and realizes "oh shit". Then he helps craft the strategy to respond to it. (Immerse windows with networking and Internet features, bury Netscape with a free browser.) The company changed priorities nearly overnight, and did the equivalent of a battleship doing an 180 degree turn.

No decrepit monopoly there. Its the legal actions that limits Microsoft's manoevering nowadays. (Interesting sidenote, there are hints that Google is revisiting the Netscape strategy of making Microsoft irrelevant...)

Re:Microsoft 2000-whatever

[Anonymous Coward]

(Immerse windows with networking and Internet features, bury Netscape with a free browser.)

Netscape's original business plan was to give away the browser and make money by selling the server. Even with the corporate fees, it was still essentially free for most users, which is why Microsoft stopped charging for IE (hardly anyone bought it when Netscape could be downloaded for free).

Re:Microsoft 2000-whatever

[slashdot_commentator]

No, Netscape used to charge money for their browser. They had to stop charging for their browser in response to M$ releasing IE v4 for free. It hit Netscape's income, which prevented it from aggressively market and develop their browser and web server products. This was Microsoft's intention.

two choices:

[www.sorehands.com]

One, Bill Gates could have offered Linus enough money to turn him to the dark side; Or two, he could have hired enough people to brain wash Linus.

Re:two choices:

[ceeam]

Or three - he is his father!

it's not exactly in line with this article ...

[timothy]

but something I've been thinking and asserting for a few years is that Microsoft, if they wanted to, could easily be the world's largest Open Source company.

Now, with their cash, they could probably also quickly be the world's largest X company for nearly any X ;) However, as an entrenched company with experts in all levels of the software world (from marketing and PR to theoretical next-century noodling that one day will be genuine workable technology), this is a not-crazy idea.

Microsoft has adopted to market changes before, and they will in the future. (And then, of course, one day they won't exist any more ... dust to dust).

timothy

Re:it's not exactly in line with this article ...

[k4_pacific]

I wrote a somewhat farcicle blurb once that theorized that (among other things) Microsoft would just buy its way into some other industry with its cash pile once the OS/Office market dried up.

In my hypothetical future, Microsoft becomes a leading manufacturer of locomotives and aircraft engines, and is a major player in the finance industry. (kind of like GE)

Wow, only one thing left to say

[Anonymous Coward]

I for one welcome our new useless-posting-bs-accumulating-writers who are only appreciated by old people from Korea who are appreaciated because soviet russia appreciates you.

Re:Wow, only one thing left to say

[Anonymous Coward]

Lame. You left out all reference to Natalie Portman, Hot Grits, and AYBABTU. Plus you forgot to insult RMS or ESR.

Memo to Wired

[digitalgimpus]

Dear Wired,

Isaac Asimov was the king of Science Fiction. Your attempt at the genre is pretty much just frightening and strange despite being somewhat comical.

Please go back to your regularly scheduled programming.

Regards,
Slashdot Community.

Re:Memo to Wired

[argent]

Nah, this isn't anything like Asimov. No attempt to tie it in to the Robots/Foundation/Empire universe.

Wired Stories

[Wyatt Earp]

Am I the only one who is sick of the weekly and monthly PR circus that is stories from other places obviously being submitted to /, to get traffic to their websites?

Wired and Robert Cringely stick out, I'm sure there are others. If /, is going to do this over and over and over, give us Wired and Robert Cringely topics we can turn off.

Is iPod the Razor or the Blade?
On January 28th, 2005

Mac mini All About Movies?
On January 21st, 2005

Bob Cringely's Predictions For 2005
On January 9th, 2005

Get Your Broadcast TV Anywhere
On December 2nd, 2004 - goes to a Cringley article

Search By.... Email?
On October 15th, 2004 - goes to a Cringley article

HP Sells Cheap FreeDOS PC in China
On December 10th, 2004 - goes to a Cringley article because "And while we're on China.."

Re:Wired Stories

[Alzheimers]

Yes, because Slashdot should stick to doing what it does best: posting stories about unique casemods on websites hosted on a residential DSL account that dissapear into the void in about .03 seconds.

Re:Wired Stories

[Wyatt Earp]

I'm down with that.

If it's up on a website with a .com that can survive a slashdoting, it shouldn't be on /.

We should have the Laws of /. like the laws for Robots.

Re:Wired Stories

[jeffChuck]

Well, the Slashdot headline is "News for nerds" and Wired is a magizine for nerds, it makes sense that a lot of Wired article would end up here.

2008: more realism

[Anonymous Coward]

More realistically, in 2008 Linus will not be writing from Redmond, but from the Federal Jail where he will go for the multiple copyright and patent violations. Do you think he will remain defiant in jail or regret stealing UNIX code from SCO?

Only old Koreans

[Shinaku]

..Only old Koreans use memos

Wired invented a magical time machine!

[Anonymous Coward]

Please send me back to 1997 so I can become a dot com billionaire!

Firefox

[after fallout]

But Firefox taught people that you could replace pieces of the Windows desktop with open source software. That was a crack in the seamless facade. You guys were the experts at demonetizing whole sectors of the industry to protect the OS. But how were you going to do that against products that were free? I can't deny that I found a certain poetry in that dilemma.

Imagine what happens to office if this is what firefox teaches about microsoft products.

Myself, I thought I was making some pretty outrageous demands. I was stunned when you agreed to accept the General Public License mandating that everything you added at the level of the new operating system would remain open. But you've been true to your side of the bargain, and you've won my respect. You never made me alter my goal, which was world domination for Linux. I'll never forget your line: "Come on, Linus, infect the mothership." I still believe that was the best recruiting pitch ever uttered. We both took a lot of criticism from our partisans, but look what we've accomplished. The world is using software that doesn't suck! I hope you don't think I'm being arrogant, Bill, when I suggest that some of the glory has rubbed off on you.

This is a little out of line though.

Re:Firefox

[Lesson No. 25]

Maybe it's not so much in-the-future, but rather in-an-alternate-universe.

Re:Firefox

[Anonymous Coward]

It isn't just a little out of line:

You never made me alter my goal, which was world domination for Linux.

This is something that I'm pretty sure Linus has specifically denied.

Sounds like a pretty good idea to me...

[erroneus]

All jokes asside, the idea of ripping out the underlying stuff while keeping the Windows UI standards for look and feel would be fine with me.

There are presently efforts to dump X11 in favor of a more hardware direct interface for graphics and such in order to provide more speed and flexibility. I don't know where those projects are now, but without a big backer of the idea, getting rid of X will never happen. As far as I can see, asside from some Microsoft-blessed system services, that's what I imagine WinX would be anyway. And to run proprietary code on top of a Linux kernel? I don't see any violations, legal or moral.

with as much work and progress that has been made over the years with KDE and GNOME projects, it would be far kinder to the users if there were a strong and unified user interface from which to run their applications. It freaks people out to change and learn new things. KDE and GNOME folks have done a lot of work to get their projects into the lime light but frankly, a large player like Microsoft could easily swoop in and make it all irrelevant. This may not be the case in a year or two but it feels like it is the case right now.

For the record, I'm very anti-microsoft. But it would be a mistake to fail to embrace them if they were to attempt something like WinX. (If they did, it'd probably be a BSD kernel though... worked for Apple didn't it?)

Re:Sounds like a pretty good idea to me...

[tu_holmes]

WinX it's not, but Linux is pretty much already there.
http://www.xandros.com/images/screenshots/v3/deskt op_original.png

Re:Sounds like a pretty good idea to me...

[unixbugs]

Ill tell you what I think is wrong with the whole idea: microsoft will do whatever they want to the linux kernel. Their bastardization of the OS/Kernel will violate the GPL, be the death of the Free OS, and will probably be the big event that tests the GPL in court. What I dont get is how their EULA stands without question in a court but something like the GPL has to be "tested".

Re:Sounds like a pretty good idea to me...

[DunbarTheInept]

Any attempt to get rid of X would have to be able to do all the things X can do or people like me would never go for it. Some things the Windows interface sucks at are:
1 - Having an independant window manager, so that the application's frame is NOT under its own control. This wins you several things, including being able to move or iconify an App that is unresponsive.
2 - Remotability that is not an added afterthought. Remotability that is always there, and always usable.
3 - Picking and choosing your interface tools that help (this has a lot to do with #1 above).
4 - mouse focus how you like it.

Re:Sounds like a pretty good idea to me...

[SharpFang]

Any attempt to get rid of X would have to be able to do all the things X can do

So where's the point? (being speed things up by removing unnecessary clutter)

I'd still see it possible: YET another level of indirection (sorry!).
- A "bare bones" simple, fast interface replacing X on the very bottom.
- An "X" layer on top of it.

New apps and DMs would use the new interface. Old ones would use the compatiblity layer which would provide all the old functionality with all the old speed loss or even more, but without slowing down anything that isn't using it.
Something similar to SDL, but while SDL "punches a fast hole" in slow X, this would work in opposite direction, overlay slow compat layer on top of fast base.

Re:Sounds like a pretty good idea to me...

[DunbarTheInept]

Something I take advantage of every single day is NOT "unnecessary clutter". Maybe YOU don't use remotable X, but that doesn't mean it's not necessary.

Your proposed solution, of an X layer on top of something else, might work if it is integrated VERY well, but past attempts to do that very same thing have fared poorly (X on Windows, X on Mac). Mostly because for X to feel like X, it has to be using the whole screen and be in charge of the root window, the window manager, and so on.

Re:Sounds like a pretty good idea to me...

[Anonymous Coward]

For the record, I'm very anti-microsoft. But it would be a mistake to fail to embrace them if they were to attempt something like WinX. (If they did, it'd probably be a BSD kernel though... worked for Apple didn't it?)

Theo de Raadt would turn in his grave ...

Re:Sounds like a pretty good idea to me...

[Anonymous Coward]

um, no, its not.

Re:Sounds like a pretty good idea to me...

[argent]

All jokes asside, the idea of ripping out the underlying stuff while keeping the Windows UI standards for look and feel would be fine with me.

Hell no.

NT is a nice OS, with a lot of potential.

Win32 and the bits directly derived from it (much of which has been moved into the bloody kernel for performance) is a toxic ecosystem, like a cross between Love Canal, the naster parts of Eastern Europe and the Aral Sea, and those scary animated vines from Lost in Space.

Clearly a fraud

[LordOfYourPants]

If this memo were real then there would be at least be a mention of the $2 trillion media extravaganza surrounding the press release which revealed that Duke Nukem was coming out before 2009.

Interesting thing is...

[Ironsides]

What's interesting is that a WinX environment on linux might be a great gui environment. So far neither Gnome nor KDE is coming out ahead and neither is particularly user friendly to the noob (like me). Windows particularly excels in their interface which they could probably make money on selling in a linux environment.

Re:Interesting thing is...

[MightyMartian]

I don't know about this. My youngest kid had no problems whatsoever with KDE. For the most part, it's pretty similar to Windows; point-and-click stuff.

As an old OS2 user, I find Windows in every incarnation to just be a stunted imitation of the WPS, which was a truly awesome GUI still light years ahead of XP. I don't see anything particularly innovative or easy about the Windows XP interface. I deal with a lot of plain users, and half of them panic a little when you ask them "Now please press the Start button".

Most of the time their more-knowledgeable son/daughter/brother/friend/neighbor puts icons to Internet Exploder and Outlook Distress, along with the photo software and Solitaire on the desktop and people never look one bit further.

The only place where Windows has something of an edge is in software installation, and the problem there is that there's a number of different systems depending on distro. I mainly use Slackware, but when I played with Mandrake, it's package GUI installation system was every bit as easy as Windows XP.

So I can't really understand what people mean when they say "Windows is easier to use". I mean, what parts of Windows does the average user plug into on anything approaching a regular basis that's more involved than double-clicking on the program.

I'll place a bet that if you put a Linux box running KDE with Firefox and Thunderbird on the desktop as Internet Explorer and Outlook Express, many users will probably be just fine. It's the product recognition thing that gets most users.

Re:Interesting thing is...

[Shulai]

I'm sorry, but while I dislike Gnome, KDE is my first desktop choice, and I don't think that your comment is nonsense since at least two years ago. While Linux is still a bit rough as a desktop, is not GUI's fault, but lack of certain features at system level, like DBUS is intended to solve.
On the other hand, I guess the main weaknesses of Windows are not in the very low level stuff, so porting it on top of Linux or BSD don't solve its problems.

So, if you really like Windows, stick with it and be happy as it is, don't wait for any

Re:Interesting thing is...

[mattyrobinson69]

just thought i'd point out something about package management:

I used to use slackware, and was all for compiling software by hand, then i installed gentoo and its package management system is amazing (far, far better than windows) - it even has a gui (porthole) which my gf uses to install/upgrade stuff.

I loved slackware, but i could never use it again on my desktop.

Re:Interesting thing is...

[MightyMartian]

Well, I'm a big time tinkerer, and the Slack packaging system is pretty plain-jane, but that's alright. I've only had one package not work, and that was mplayer, which I turned around and compiled.

What I really love Slack on is dedicated servers. Because it's basic notion is no GUI whatsoever, it's the distro to use on that old Pentium 233 with 64mb of RAM that's going to become your new gateway router. I can download new kernels straight from kernel.org and not have to worry about any funny business. Configure and compile, and I usually have a kernel up and running quick and easy.

Slackware is not a distro for the average user, and if when I convince my significant other to switch from Win2k to Linux, it will be Mandrake or Gentoo. The biggest thing right now is that the kids dig Amusement Park Tycoon and that sort of thing.

Re:Interesting thing is...

[Anonymous Coward]

So I can't really understand what people mean when they say "Windows is easier to use".


They mean that they can go to a website of some little tool maker (let's say a shareware tool that helps them oraganize a shopping list), they can click once to download the tool and another click to install it and they're done. It isn't like that with Linux (no matter what distro) and it never will be until it achieves a critical mass on the desktop which won't be anytime soon.

And no, fiddling with a zillion different "package managers" is not a viable alternative.

Re:Interesting thing is...

[Anonymous Coward]

**** 10 POINTS ****
Great post!!!! Now if only someone can create a real Workplace clone for Linux (or Windows for that matter). After all, OS/2 WPS is more than 10yrs old and there not a single desktop that can equal it. WHAT ARE WE DOING WRONG???? And I don't mean the cosmetic improvements, because todays desktops are years ahead in look, but they all still years behind technically the WPS. Yeah, I know there is WPS-look alikes for Linux, but they not the same. We still do not have a true object oriented desktop like OS/2 was.

Re:Interesting thing is...

[mattyrobinson69]

i like to tinker too, but after i found portage to be so simple (emerge kde) and powerful (useflags), i started to find it annoying to chase dependancies, do ./configure ; make ; make install myself, etc.

Now i have more time to tinker with more interesting stuff.

Re:Interesting thing is...

[MightyMartian]

> They mean that they can go to a website of some
> little tool maker (let's say a shareware tool that
> helps them oraganize a shopping list), they can
> click once to download the tool and another click
> to install it and they're done. It isn't like that
> with Linux (no matter what distro) and it never
> will be until it achieves a critical mass on the
> desktop which won't be anytime soon.

Except that this has been part of the problem with Windows. It's just simply too easy to install this sort of stuff, and suddenly find yourself plagued with spyware. I'm all for easy-of-install, but it shouldn't be too easy. It's the same thing with attachments. It's one thing to have relatively easy access to attachments, but allowing executables to be clicked on is just asking for disaster.

I think a reasonable compromise is simply allow the software to install under the user's account, and thus have the vulnerability at least not be inherited by anyone else logging on to the computer. I think the reason we haven't seen this is because the designers of *nix GUIs just don't want to introduce the worst parts of Windows.

> And no, fiddling with a zillion different
> "package managers" is not a viable alternative.

And I've admitted this is a problem, though like I said, some of the distros have pretty damn easy installation procedures, and I think if it's thought out carefully, even installing from the browser might be okay, but if what you're asking for is simply the same brain-dead methodology that has made Windows extremely vulnerable, then absolutely not.

At some point, whether its Microsoft or KDE or who or whatever, users are going to have to face the facts that they are a critical quotient in the security issue, and that means that users are either going to have to be educated or not be given the ability to install just any-ol-thing. Ease of installation isn't necessarily a good thing.

Re:Interesting thing is...

[westlake]

Most of the time their more-knowledgeable son/daughter/brother/friend/neighbor puts icons to Internet Exploder and Outlook Distress, along with the photo software and Solitaire on the desktop and people never look one bit further.

To me, these stories always have the look of something that belongs on Snopes, Urban Legends, all that is missing is the popular ending to this Geek folk tale "and he changed the shortcuts to launch Firefox, etc., and no one noticed." The familiar put-downs are there, Internet Exploder, Outlook Distress and, of course, Solitaire.

Never is friend or neighbor told "Change anything on my desktop and you die."

Re:Interesting thing is...

[drjzzz]

Buy it today! MacOSX, a beautiful user interface on a solid, open source unix/darwin base. To have a chance, "Winks" should precede "oh SeX".

Re:Interesting thing is...

[mvdw]

I agree. I first tried gentoo about 3 years ago, coming from slackware (7.1?). I didn't like it at the time, probably due to the slow-ish computer and network (dual celeron-366 + dial-up), but also I had an issue with upgrading one thing caused the whole thing to upgrade. So, it was back to slackware for me. Then last year I decided to give gentoo another go, this time on a fast-ish machine (dual athlon MP1800+), plus broadband. No contest; I *love* portage. I had played with netBSD and its pkgsrc before, and this was very close to that: heaven on a stick. I'm now at the point where if something doesn't have an ebuild, I'll think hard about installing it ;).

Bottom line: I love gentoo, it's everything I used to like about slackware, with the convenience of portage + the constant-updates.

Re:Interesting thing is...

[strider44]

Of course you can make it like that. You're just ignorant. The main reason that you don't do that is that with most (pretty much all nowadays) distros the main installation path is to just open the package manager, click on the thing you want to install, and it downloads and installs (and updates on a routine basis).

However if you can't get it through the package manager, there are many solutions you can use, most notably Bitrock InstallBuilder which, though proprietary, can be used for free with open source programs. I have used it myself and find it extremely easy to use, extremely quick, and pretty well painless. The final installer also works cross-distro.

So please don't spread misinformation when you don't know for yourself, when all you're spreading is your own guesses. Ignorance is not an excuse.

Re:Interesting thing is...

[Tomfrh]

That's the plain and simple truth. It's odd how many Linux people get angry at hearing it. Linux must lose thousands of potential converts because of the difficult software installation process.

Re:Interesting thing is...

[Anonymous Coward]

Linux installations are difficult for one reason only: developers don't include the necessary libraries with the installation package, almost never include the proper libraries on their websites, and usually don't even provide links to the proper libraries.

Each Linux package should probably come in two parts - main_package.foo and all-even_vaguely_reasonable_dependencies.foo.

If anyone doesn't believe me, try installing compiling gnucash from scratch.

Anony Mouse

Re:Interesting thing is...

[ignavus]

My 11-year old daughter took to using Debian with WindowMaker, without needing any training. She knows how to boot the PC and log in, how to look up the Games menu for fun stuff, and her other apps are iconised in the dock. She can surf the web in Firefox, send and receive email in Thunderbird, and write stories in AbiWord. She's got TuxPaint, and heaps of games. I also set up some old Windows games under WINE for her. This is all she needs. I wouldn't expect her to install or configure /any/ OS, or do systems administration on Windows or Linux. As a simple PC user, she's happy.

So yeah. What's so hard?

Re:Interesting thing is...

[Tomfrh]

Well that is what packages are for... but still, the fact that this issue turns up about a trillion times a day on message boards shows what an issue it is.

Re:Interesting thing is...

[mattyrobinson69]

Ive never used any of the BSD's, what does gentoo's portage lack from netBSD's pkgsrc?

(just out of interest, im _not_ implying that portage is perfect)

Re:Interesting thing is...

[Anonymous Coward]

What diffecult installing process?

It's diffrent but not diffecult ...

In windows, you go to a site, download a file(wich is written to install on your system), dubbleclick it, fill in the questions and install, enter serialnumber and so on ...

In mandrake, you look for program on the internet, then you start the manager(don't remember it's name) click on the file and install the program that you want.

With Gentoo, you just type emerge "package_name".

It is not more diffecult, but it is diffrent and has another aproached.

The problem is that people sees linux as one distro, not many ...

I find both gentoo and mandrakes package installing as easy as windows programsintalling.

But all three have problems.

Re:Interesting thing is...

[squiggleslash]

Why did you do the ./configure ; make ; make install stuff with Slackware, rather than download pre-compiled packages from places like Linux Packages/Linux Mafia.net?

I agree about the chasing dependencies, but generally most packages I downloaded included dependency information in the documentation anyway.

Re:Interesting thing is...

[mattyrobinson69]

I used to use linux packages, but most of the packages i downloaded didn't include depencancy information. Also i didn't know about linux mafia (just tried it and apparently its under construction??) and linux packages didn't have all the software i wanted (usually had to compile the deps anyway)

If you like to tinker, i suggest installing gentoo on a spare partition or something and having a play with that. irc.freenode.net#gentoo is very helpful, and the docs are great.

Ive never tried debian, but apparently apt-get is pretty good too.

Re:Interesting thing is...

[squiggleslash]

LinuxMafia is what became LinuxPackages. If it's showing an "under construction" page it just means the domain's been resold.

You made it sound like you were compiling everything; that's why I wondered. If you were aware you could download binary packages for Slackware's package management system then that's ok :) I know I had to compile my own stuff from time to time, but usually the same kinds of things I'd have had problems getting a decent RPM for or finding an entry in BSD ports for too.

Slack also has an option to convert RPMs to Slackware packages. Unfortunately, you lose the dependency information when you do and it's rarely in the documentation.

Re:Interesting thing is...

[Squozen]

It's obvious that you've never worked on an internet help desk. :)

Re:Interesting thing is...

[mvdw]

Nothing, really; they are actually very similar. I haven't really used pkgsrc to upgrade the system (only userspace), but they seem to do pretty much the same thing.

Re:Interesting thing is...

[XnR'rn]

The thing is, that it is not all that hard to either write your own ebuild (I haven't figured ebuilds enough to easily do it myself for everything I want, and that it is not already in portage) or find that there is an unofficial ebuild somewhere, or ask on the forums for someone to create the ebuild.

As long as we're playing fantasy land

[jalefkowit]

From the office of: Jesus Christ
Date: 10.31.2008
To: Allah
From: Big J
Re: Will Mohammed kill Islam++?

Send them back to "Motherfuckerland"

[Anonymous Coward]

Send them back to "Motherfuckerland".

Gah

[Anonymous Coward]

Microsofts desktop environment is the cruft that makes it "bad".

Microsofts Kernel is smaller, does not need a recompile for hardware updates (*snigger*), handles threading and memory management better and with alot more features then "Teh legendary linux kernel". Frankly, Linux (the man and the kernel) doesn't have anything Microsoft needs.

They (ms) just need to get their shit together and get their engineering standards homogenous across all departments. The wads who produce garbage like clippy and "let the intern do it with string.h" arn't the same guys who make the kernel.

Re:Gah

[ak_hepcat]

"does not need a recompile for hardware updates"

Meh. "Updates installed. Please Reboot"

Because they've just recompiled everything and shipped the new stuff. But because it can't be dynamically loaded or unloaded, there's a reboot.

But under linux, I can (if I *really* had the uptime requirement) backport the driver to my existing kernel and just compile a new module. Presumably the developers took care of that for me, and it's just Make and modprobe. No reboot required.

And the reason the 'kernel' is smaller is because it's not a full-fledged kernel. It's a micro-kernel. Homework?

In 2008

[fieldcomm]

We've built a Windows desktop and application framework around a Linux operating system, and both sides of this equation - open source and proprietary - are needed for our plan to continue to work.

In other news, RMS announces the imminent release of HURD. "I can feel it, any day now, " says RMS.

When asked about the new Winux, RMS suddenly issued blue smoke and sparks, muttering "Freedom, freedom, where is the freedom," before crashing to the floor.

Re:In 2008

[TheRaven64]

While HURD-bashing is fun, it should be noted that it is currently in a useable (although not what a BSD-user would call stable) state. Development is stalled somewhat because it is being ported to run on top of L4 instead of Mach (L4 is a much lighter-weight microkernel). While Linux and BSDs are here now, HURD is a technically far more interesting approach (i.e. not yet another re-implementation of 1974).

Ya must be new ...

[Moulinneuf]

http://www.microsoft.com/resources/sharedsource/Go vernment/opensource.mspx

run run for your life !!! where's my tinfoil hat !!!

Re:Ya must be new ...

[xtracto]

From the link: ...Some proprietary software, such as Microsoft Windows, is also provided in source code form although this is generally not the case for all commercial software companies.
Are you serious?? where is ALSO provided as sourcecode?

Re:Ya must be new ...

[Anonymous Coward]

That page is for Microsoft's government customers. Microsoft Windows is provided in source code form to a lot of governments, since they tend to be rather paranoid about trusting global corporations (especially American corporations, except for the American government of course).

A lot of universities also have source-code licenses for Microsoft Windows, and I think some large corporations do too. The average individual user of Microsoft Windows can't get access to the source code, though, without being in one of the above categories.

Microsoft would probably give the Windows source code out to individuals if it were possible to prevent it being copied and/or modified to remove all the anti-piracy bits, but it isn't, so only easily traceable/sueable organisations are allowed to get it.

Re:Ya must be new ...

[EddWo]

The MVPs can also get access, so all you need do is hang out on one of the MS newsgroups and answer the same questions over and again for a couple of years.

Re:OK (Microsoft/Linus pr0n??)

[Geoffreyerffoeg]

curl http://google.com/search?q=harry+draco+slash+ficti on&btnI= | sed "s/Harry/Linus/g" | sed "s/Draco/Bill/g"

Happy Halloween!

[argent]

Anyone else notice the date on the memo? :)

THE REAL MEMO!!!!

[DocStoner]

Hey Bill,

Well, we did the best we could. Everyone thought we were crazy when we decided to join forces. For awhile there, we thought that we might actually have a chance at coming out on top by teaming up.

We should have known that copying Apple again ( this time by turning to a 'nix based OS) wouldn't work. They had such a huge headstart on us and you can only copy your competitors so many times before consumers catch on to what you are doing.

I've got to hand it to Steve Jobs and the guys at Apple. In the end, quality did beat out price.

Linus

Re:THE REAL MEMO!!!!

[gremlins]

With such convincing arguments and irrefutable proof you present it is a wonder why this post has not been modded higher.

Re:THE REAL MEMO!!!!

[Anonymous Coward]

Being blind to the facts isn't going to help you.

Not that I care, you're free to use whatever you want. That just gives people that actually get work done more room to work.

Re:THE REAL MEMO!!!!

[Anonymous Coward]

Haha, Apple lusers... whatever, it will be your own downfall

Re:THE REAL MEMO!!!!

[Anonymous Coward]

morons arn't they...

Only in a parallel universe...

[Eskimore_]

I bet everyone in this scenario has a goatee, unless they have one now of course.

Sounds familiar...

[MrPerfekt]

This sounds an awful lot like Apple and OS X, complete with humor about pronounciation (OS X or OS TEN).

As sad as I am to say it, Cringley already fielded this one sometime in 2002 or 2003 I believe. He had a slightly insane theory that a proprietary Windows interface on top of a Linux kernel would be the best of both worlds.

I doubt it would ever happen but it would be definately interesting. Just think if Windows made the shift, there would no longer be ANY operating systems in active development that weren't based on UNIX in some way.

Is that a far-fetch dream or a reality slowly taking shape?

Re:Sounds familiar...

[Anonymous Coward]

Just think if Windows made the shift, there would no longer be ANY operating systems in active development that weren't based on UNIX in some way.

It just might be enough to get me to switch back from OS X!

Re:Sounds familiar...

[Ichiban-IT]

>Just think if Windows made the shift, there would no longer be ANY operating systems in active development that weren't based on UNIX in some way.
>Is that a far-fetch dream or a reality slowly taking shape?

A nightmare !!! I don't want any monopoly, even if it's linux.

Re:Sounds familiar...

[CAIMLAS]

Personally, I think it would be more interesting if MS based an OS off of an "open VMS" - not OpenVMS, but An open implimentation of it. VMS is, after all, kind of what MS was trying to emulate with NT. But they failed, as it certainly doesn't perform as well as VMS.

That, I would pay for. Maybe even if it were closed and worked well (and compatibly) with VMS (using VMS as the benchmark for 'standard compliance'.

Re:Sounds familiar...

[argent]

Just think if Windows made the shift, there would no longer be ANY operating systems in active development that weren't based on UNIX in some way.

There aren't any now. There's UNIX genes all through NT: Microsoft imported UNIX concepts and in some cases code over and over again, going back all the way to DOS 2.11.

AmigaDOS (newly re-released) is more of an independent OS than Windows NT.

Re:Sounds familiar...

[bofkentucky]

BeOS (OpenBEOS changed names I think) would like to register a complaint, as would VMS, which while not actively courting new users, still is being worked on daily.

Re:Sounds familiar...

[Anonymous Coward]

VMS is, after all, kind of what MS was trying to emulate with NT. But they failed, as it certainly doesn't perform as well as VMS.

That's largely because: (1) x86 PC hardware is shite compared to the VAX or Alpha systems from DEC/Compaq/HP; (2) Microsoft don't make the hardware, so rely on drivers written by third parties (often of much lower quality than the OS itself), where as DEC/Compaq/HP made both all along (VAX/VMS and Alpha/OpenVMS), so never had that problem.

From what I've heard, Windows Datacenter Server, which runs on a small set of very expensive hardware (and is extensively tested on it), is extremely reliable. A big part of that reliability comes from the fact that the hardware is a known quantity, not the latest collection of the cheapest commodity parts and questionably drivers thrown together by Dell, HP, et al.

That was dumb

[ahdeoz]

unless there was a point at the end of the article. I couldn't finish, though I slogged through to the second page.

TFA

[Bad Boy Marty]

It's really wonderful, and extremely scary. Wonderful because the scenario is quite possible, and would almost certainly be a big boost to all of OSS (not just the kernel). Alas, it's scary for the more obvious reason that it would make "that evil desktop" completely ubiquitous.

I will definitely be having nightmares for the next several weeks -- and possibly for as long as 2.5 years....

I mod thee (-1 Lame) Wired Magazine

[netsavior]

I just lost 5 minutes of my life that my employer will never get back...

Re:I mod thee (-1 Lame) Wired Magazine

[EnderWiggin99]

If your PHB is reading, I'm sure you'll find out next Friday.

I named my orange cat Linus...

[cresquin]

... my wife thinks he's named after a Peanuts character. What kind of geek would that make me?

Re:I named my orange cat Linus...

[AceCaseOR]

Well, that depends. If he was named "Torvalds", would your wife think he was named after a character from a play?

Re:I named my orange cat Linus...

[cresquin]

I guess you just dennis miller'd me, cause I apparantly don't know what play you're refering to. If i had named him torvalds she would probably not know the reference either. Please enlighten me.

Re:I named my orange cat Linus...

[AceCaseOR]

I was refrenceing the play "A Doll House" by Norwegan playwright Henrik Ibsen. One of the main characters in the play is named Torvald.

Trust me....

[copponex]

I'm waiting for Longhorn SP1 in 2011.

Re:Trust me....

[koreaman]

Forget Longhorn, I'm anticipating Duke Nukem Forever!

Re:Trust me....

[sxtxixtxcxh]

Duke Nukem Forever minimum system requirements:
Windows Longhorn SP2.

Here's another alternate universe

[VAXGeek]

Here's another piece along the same lines as this one. In this alternate version of reality, ESR somehow comes into some money and he writes what he will do with it. Fascinating read, really.

"A few hours ago, I learned that I am now (at least in theory) absurdly rich."

The RMS Chapter

[Anonymous Coward]

Fortunately, we were able to find RMS in Montana on his private ranch. RMS was generally broken up that Windows was open source and that he had nothing to fight against except for tiny firmware programs inside cd-rom drives. RMS pondered "I won't rest untill each and every machine code instruction is open source".

We couldn't help feeling sorry for RMS since the dirt road to his house was completely overgrown with weeds meaning that no one had be to or out of his house for many months.

Reality check - Steve vs. Linus

[Anonymous Cowherd X]

Back then, my revenge was to sneak up on Steve's Longtime friends and whisper in my best accent, "We are the Borg. You will be assimilated. Your biological and technological distinctiveness will be added to our own. Resistance is futile." They hated that.

For some reason I think that conflict between Steve and Linus would go down like this:

Linus: "Steve, I just don't like your idea, honestly I think it -"
Steve: "You... don't like... my idea? *closing in on Linus*"
Linus: "Oh, come on... We are the Borg, we -"
Steve: "OOO OOO OOOAAA *jumps on Linus and squashes him like a pumpkin, then does his little psychotic monkey dance* I am the Borg, I AM the Borg!!! Give it up for meeee, yeah!!!"

Later that day...

Bill: "Steve, another accident?"
Steve: "*shrugs* *can't help smiling*"
Bill: "You think this is funny?!"
Steve: "*his smile turns into a crazy stare*"
Bill: "No, I didn't mean it like that *grin*, it's really no big deal... Uhh, I mean..."
Steve: "*closing in on Bill*"

Due to extremely graphic violence *shrieks of what appears to be a woman being dismembered by a gorilla can be heard in the background* the following scene has been removed from this broadcast, however you can find it on the Steve: Crushing My Crust Soft DVD.

Re:Reality check - Steve vs. Linus

[Blakey Rat]

OK, let's all ban together and maybe this post will be what we need to finally convince Slashdot admins that there should be an "unfunny" moderation.

Re:Reality check - Steve vs. Linus

[Anonymous Coward]

OK, let's all ban together and maybe this post will be what we need to finally convince Slashdot admins that there should be an "unfunny" moderation.

No, let's all band together and convince you to finish highschool and learn how to express yourself properly and eloquently by the time GNU Hurd gets released. I'm thinking of a certain moderation qualifier that best suits your post and it begins with Foolishly Ridiculous.

Winux or is it GNU/Winux ?

[BroncoInCalifornia]

This Linus seems to take on some RMS personality traits!

Doubt it!

[Sebby]

I higly doubt it! No so much Linus working at Microsoft, but more the 'the open source community is working for [Microsoft] now" thing.

I highly doubt there would be many developpers that would want to "work for Microsoft" or have their code used in their products. Hell, they'd probably even create and release code under a license that specifically forbade MS - and only MS - from using any of the code in MS products

Re:Doubt it!

[KarmaMB84]

Which would be a violation of everything the OSS zealots stand for.

Re:Doubt it!

[EnderWiggin99]

Well, that would surely separate the pretenders from the genuine, wouldn't it?

Mediocrity

[cperciva]

... There's a standard of established mediocrity within [Microsoft's] internal tools that probably serves to reinforce their release of crappy products. This is pretty much the only downside really, and I could see Linus doing his fair share to alleviate this problem at least in the division in which he would be working.

What makes you think that Linus would solve this problem? In all seriousness, look at the "stable" 2.6 kernel branch, and the attitude demonstrated by comments like "some kernels will be good, others will be bad... we'll find out which kernels are broken soon enough".

I'm not saying that Linus himself believes in such mediocrity; but it's a bit unreasonable to expect that he would improve things at Microsoft when Linux, under his "benevolent dictatoriship" is plagued by exactly the same problems.

Re:Mediocrity

[frdmfghtr]

What makes you think that Linus would solve this problem? In all seriousness, look at the "stable" 2.6 kernel branch, and the attitude demonstrated by comments like "some kernels will be good, others will be bad... we'll find out which kernels are broken soon enough".

I'm not sure I see that as accepting mediocrity. I see it as more a "relaxed" approach.

Microsoft has programmers to pay, shareholders to satisfy, and all sorts of other expenses that come with being a business and, despite being a near monopoly, SHOULD be concerned with the established mediocrity and its effect on the end product. You can't do the job right if you don't have the right tools, and it sounds like Microsoft doesn't have very good tools to start.

Linux, OTOH, isn't under external pressure from a marketing department that keeps promoting superwhamodyne products by such-and-such a date. Linux is ready when it is ready, and not before.

My non-programming two cents...

Re:Mediocrity

[cperciva]

I'm not sure I see that as accepting mediocrity. I see it as more a "relaxed" approach.

I'm not sure I understand. What's the difference between accepting mediocrity, and being "relaxed" about issues of quality?

Linux, OTOH, isn't under external pressure from a marketing department that keeps promoting superwhamodyne products by such-and-such a date. Linux is ready when it is ready, and not before.

Strangely enough, Microsoft is becoming famous for delaying products until they're ready (e.g., XP SP2, LongHorn), while Linus is happy to charge ahead and release "stable" kernels whether they're ready or not.

Re:Mediocrity

[frdmfghtr]

What's the difference between accepting mediocrity, and being "relaxed" about issues of quality?

When I said "relaxed" I meant relaxed as in a more calm, doesn't-get-uptight-and-panicky. "Oh, there's a problem, let's go fix it" versus "Oh, there's a problem, blame it on the user for a while until it goes away" or "Let marketing deal with it for a while."

I'll take your remark about MS vs. Linus on stable releases at face value for now since I really don't follow the Linux kernel development too closely; my observation on release timeframes are made on a general impression of the whole Linux phenomena--which very well may render my comment on MS vs. Linux releases moot since I'm not well versed in either process.

I will say this though about XP SP2: I've seen a lot of reports where SP2 has caused previously operating, stable machines to stop booting. As a percentage of the whole install base they may actually be very few, but it seems to me that those reports are too numerous for a ready product.

As far as Longhorn goes, that we won't know if the release is ready until it is actually released and real-world sress tested.

Re:Mediocrity

[Anonymous Coward]

unreasonable to expect that he would improve things at Microsoft when Linux, under his "benevolent dictatoriship" is plagued by exactly the same problems.

Oh, bullcrap!

Look, today, I had to work with MS Office tools. Word - I placed a picture (MS bitmap) into a document, then cropped it. Damnit, after recropping, there is no way to resize it. I must take it out of picture edit mode by selecting text, then re-selecting the picture. I took a frustration break in the middle of this process, only to come back and find that the screen saver will NOT work as long as Word is the topped window! After resolving the picture-cropping issue and working for a while more, I suddenly find that the cursor has completely disaperaed in Word and Windows. From many other times this has happened, I know that the only way to cure this is to CTRL-ALT-DEL, kill Word, and then my cursor reappears.

I do NOT see these kinds of things happen in Linux. It is part of the reason I moved to Linux at home. Part and parcel of the MS way of doing things is the incestuous melding of application and OS, NOT to provide any better functionality, but merely to provide more customer lock-in. I do NOT see the same kind of WTF? malfunctions in the most mundane operations in Linux that I see in Windows. The most trivial shit in Windows simply ceases to work as it should: menus stop pulling down for no apparent reason, tect selection suddenly gets locked from the last selection, no matter how many times you click the cursor elsewhere in the text. Windows (and its applications) are plaqued with a thousand small annoyances that have no rhyme or reason. From my experience as a software developer, this is the result of poorly written, slipshod software.

Before you make these kind of asinine accusations (i.e. his "benevolent dictatoriship" is plagued by exactly the same problems.) you need to actually use Linux and compare the day-to-day fuck-ups with what is seen in Windows, mmmm-K?

Re:Mediocrity

[hdparm]

And XP was ready for what exactly at the time of release?

Re:OK (Microsoft/Linus pr0n??)

[thephotoman]

Oh dear God...the Harry/Draco shippers have invaded Slashdot.

For the record, though, Linus/Bill doesn't have the same snark quality.

Come on now this is getting out of hand

[geekp0wer]

Its bad enough that we are addicted to the play by play of technology and spend day after day reading slashdot. Even if you are smart enough to recognize that you a slave to news you need more.

Then along comes the online news organizations. They know your an addict and there is not enough news to suck you in on a consistent basis. So they sepeculate. They adopt the play by play just like sports. They hype up the controversy. And now they make up fictional stories about the future.

The first step to beating your addiction is admitting that you have one.

Change his name

[nahnkari]

If Linus does that, change his name to Linass. Fuck karma.

Bob Resurrected

[JohnPerkins]

This is Bob!

He took Enzyte, which gave him the courage to show his face on store shelves again.

...which brought him back into public view.

...which brought him sales beyond the 3-digit range.

...which brought him world-wide respect.

...which, by 2008, placed him on over 90% of desktops in the world.

Coincidence? You decide! Try Enzyte today!

Like OSX is really just Aqua on top of BSD?

[doormat]

It'd be nice to have the security of linux and the user-friendlyness and software library of windows in one package.

But the words "snowballs chance in hell" come to mind.

Communism

[Anonymous Coward]

As a proud citzen of the United States America, I am horrified that such Communism thoughts would find its way into American homeland.

Capitalism is the only way.

I am very happy of microsoft, as a software engineer, without Microsoft I would not have my current job. Quite simply, without capitalism and Microsoft, home computers would not be popular at all. THey would still cost > $2000, unaffordable to the average American tax payer.

Re:Communism

[Anonymous Coward]

THey would still cost > $2000, unaffordable to the average American tax payer.

Nah... PCs might; all home computers would have Amiga written on them instead. :)

That didn't sound like Linus

[PetoskeyGuy]

Literally, when I read the article I thought - This literally sounds nothing like Linus.

Several reboots?

[Farrside]

So in other words, within the first 1/2 hour?

All the best fiction comes frm AC's

[Anonymous Coward]

Why is it that all my Apple zealot friend's machines are always in the shop? Broken motherboards, bad RAM, busted fans, etc.

Sure buddy.

Snail Mail is Faster than Slashdot

[Anonymous Coward]

Where have I seen this before. Oh yes, it was in the Wired I got last week.

When is /. going to STOP posting articles about what's in Wired. We seen to get a bunch every month, and they're ALWAYS way behind the printed version.

Re:Snail Mail is Faster than Slashdot

[Anonymous Coward]

When is /. going to STOP posting articles about what's in Wired. We seen to get a bunch every month, and they're ALWAYS way behind the printed version.

True; but even if Wired decided to install an infinitely replicating X10-cam pop-up advertisement on their homepage that clogged all your memory within 5 seconds, you'd still have to wade your way through fewer adverts to read Wired online than you do in the print version.

Absolutely Agree!

[Anonymous Coward]

Microsofts kernel is an example of legendary engiXP ***stop:0x000000(0xc0000005, 0x00000260, 0xb7b39cc8, 0x00000000)

Believable

[jd]

Microsoft and Intel have fallen out, much as Microsoft and IBM fell out over DOS and (later on) OS/2. I could easily see Microsoft putting in a takeover bid for AMD, thereby controlling both the hardware and the software.

Alternatively, now that Oracle has bought Peoplesoft, Oracle is vulnerable. It hasn't the money left to resist an attack from Microsoft. With Microsoft wanting more of the server market, taking over companies dealing in high-end server software would be not only logical but consistant with Microsoft's tactics in the past.

A third possibility would be for Microsoft to buy part of the Internet backbone, or one of the suppliers of it. Juniper is growing in popularity but isn't so big as to be able to resist a buyout. Cisco's not been doing too great, recently, and may be vulnerable. Lucent would be easy pickings and may even welcome such a move.

Finally, Microsoft may opt for a "strategic partnership" with Boeing. Boeing is in the middle of a massive struggle with Airbus, and it's unlikely both can survive. If Boeing wants to win, it needs more money. Microsoft doubled its profits last quarter, even after allowing for the shareholder payout AND the record EU fine. Aircraft may soon have WIFI. If Microsoft can become the only vendor who can work with such WIFI points, they'd have absolute control of the business market.

Finally, Microsoft could buy a hard drive vendor. If the OS came pre-installed on the hard drive to OEMs, then fewer OEMs would be willing to install rival Operating Systems....

Re:Believable

[John Miles]

Boeing is in the middle of a massive struggle with Airbus, and it's unlikely both can survive.

Yeah, because the US Department of Defense is just itching to send a few hundred billion dollars a year to France.

Re:Believable

[slashdot_commentator]

I could easily see Microsoft putting in a takeover bid for AMD, thereby controlling both the hardware and the software.

Hardly. The only reason Microsoft ever went into hardware was to make available technology not readily available to the Intel market. (ie. the mouse, though I never understood what they hoped to accomplish in making keyboards.) Steve B. is no more likely to buy AMD than Warren Buffet will invest heavy in a technology company. Buying AMD would set off anti-trust alarm klaxons throughout the USG. Granted, GWB is monopoly friendly, but nobody likes the noveau riche, and its all about maintaining power.

Alternatively, now that Oracle has bought Peoplesoft, Oracle is vulnerable.

A little more likely target, but not really. So what if Oracle has less cash to defend a takeover? Microsoft taking over Oracle would kill M$'s cash reserves. And Oracle is hardly a prized plum. It experiences heavy competition from SAP and IBM, and its growth and earnings has been flat.

M$ would not make an internet backbone play, because growth is dead and it doesn't enhance its product dominance. Everyone knows that the value of Internet is now with content/services, and M$ had to make a retreat from that recently. I can't see M$ taking over Boeing either. How does Boeing's engineering technology enhance M$ products? Boeing is in a competitive market with little growth opportunities. Wifi? Its an open standard. Forget about it. M$ history of acquisitions has been only for items that threaten its market, or enhance its products. Its always been when its a cheap pickup, otherwise M$ would reverse engineer the features it needs from scratch.

Finally, Microsoft could buy a hard drive vendor. If the OS came pre-installed on the hard drive to OEMs, then fewer OEMs would be willing to install rival Operating Systems....

Stupid. Will never happen. Hard drives are a financial loss leader and hypercompetitive. If they are going to mount an offensive against Linux, it will be with its patent lawyers.

Re:Believable

[Circlotron]

How long would it be before the entire aircraft ran a Microsoft OS? The BSOD would take on a more profound meaning.

Re:get over it geeks

[El Gordo Motoneta]

"I wonder how long until all the *nix geeks get over their OS and just realize the fact that MS will prevail."

I wonder how long until all the windows geeks get over their OS and just realize the fact that Linux will prevail.

Needs reversed

[Anonymous Coward]

When you compare the success of microsoft to the failure of so many linux companies (caldera, Mandrake(though mandrake is getting healthier), VALinux, etc.) you really have to wonder who should be giving advice.

Windows? Open OS? That already happened in 2004!

[Anonymous Coward]

Windows is now some sort of desktop environment on top of an open OS!

Windows has already been an open OS since last year!

Scenarios

[leandrod]

This is what comes out of bad naming...

The name of the OS is GNU/Linux. OK, so MS could put Linux, the kernel, under the MS Windows interface and Win32 API -- but what would this buy them? Besides the huge headache of making it work (Win32 is hugely more complex than Carbon, né the Macintosh Toolbox, ever was), they would either compromise Linux or slow MS Windows, as they would loose all types of dirty tricks that get them performance at the cost of stability.

But this wouldn't be the worse. The worse would be getting the world to realise that the problem isn't the kernel, but the API. Actually the MS WNT kernel is quite good, but they have to keep an absurd API to keep application compatibility; Linux without the GNU C library, utils and the X Window System would buy them nothing here.

Now they could adopt the GNU C library and the X Window System, but then Win32 would become just a legacy personality of MS WNT remember it already support a half-GNU and an OS/2 ones. Integrating old Win32 apps in the new X environment would be a huge headache, and then they would have in effect just a better WINE...

And anyway, this would do little for them... OpenOffice.org is already most there, v2 or v3 should prove on par with MS Office. A straightforward Debian GNU/Linux Gnome environment would still perform better, be more stable, and eventually simpler than any kind of WinX contraption.

Re:Scenarios

[Anonymous Coward]

OK, how 'bout IceWM dressed as Windows w/Nautilus for icon/file control. Major applications such as Office get properly ported over, and a shitload of emulators run most other applications. Mozilla and Thunderbird get a Windows-themed makeover, and dozens of already-existing GNU utilities get covered over with GUIs...

90% of the work has already been done. Most people wouldn't notice the difference.

Anony Mouse

Linus never would have written this memo.

[Rimbo]

First, it is way too long.

Second, it isn't nearly as witty as Linus is; it doesn't have any of the insults-that-make-you-feel-like-thanking-Linus-for -insulting-you that characterize his flames.

Third and most vital, Linus doesn't give a damn about any of the crap the author's writing about. He doesn't care about taking over the world or marketing. He is only interested in technology.

No,

[www.sorehands.com]

Bill Gates is his father's brother's nephew's cousin's former roommate from college.

New Mantra for the Masses!!

[Squatting_Dog]

'Come on Linus, Infect the mothership!!' This should become the new mantra for open source developers in the 21st century!!!

-Squatting Dog

Re:New Mantra for the Masses!!

[Ohreally_factor]

Actually, I think what Bill said was, "Put your disease into me."

I have another theory for the hiring

[ESqVIP]

Hey, it's 2005 (I mean, when Linus joined Microsoft in the story). Microsoft's worried about Google being a bigger monopoly than them.

- Hey, Bill, Google's trying to own a new area!
- What now?
- The Open-Source Developer Hiring. They just got Ben Goodger, from Mozilla!
- Those bastards. Well, I have an idea. We'll invite Linus, that'll show 'em. And if they hire another communist geek, take me into line with RMS immediatelly!

ps.

[SharpFang]

Post Scriptum

Bill, please, remember to feed Richard and let him out at least once a week! Last time I visited him in your dungeon, he had hardly enough strength to curse me for my betrayal. I know having him dead and all would make things much easier, you not getting bitten, me not being spit at, but for God's sake, RMS is the real father of the OS. I understand it's better like this, but it's sad to see him there. He IS a human being and deserves at least some respect, even if he doesn't behave like one. Keep your side of the contract and I'll keep bullshitting the EFF thugs that he keeps mailing me from central Australia on regular basis.

Re:ps.

[argent]

RMS? Linux could have come into being without RMS. It couldn't have done it without Linus.

Re:ps.

[SharpFang]

Actually... If HURD wasn't vaporware...
What were the alternatives to the (bare bones of) GNU OS at time when Linus integrated his kernel with it? RMS may be rabid but without him Linux would be nowhere near to where it is now. Probably nowhere at all.

Re:ps.

[argent]

What were the alternatives to the (bare bones of) GNU OS at time when Linus integrated his kernel with it?

Linux aggregated around the kernel, it wasn't integrated into an existing system. The FSF tools were not the only options, nor in some cases were they even the best... though in the process of building Linux led to big improvements in many.

But... people had been writing the userland components for over a decade at that time, starting in the late '70s with the Software Tools Virtual OS. There were two or three alternate C compilers, a huge variety of other components, and long before Linux was solid the BSD userland became available.

Linus has stated that if BSD had been ready a year earlier, he would just have used that... Linux wouldn't have existed at all. And the only major component in the open-source BSDs that came from the FSF is the C compiler... and that's not the compiler it started with.

So, if Linus hadn't existed, we'd be debating BSD and Hurd now, not Linux and Hurd. If RMS hadn't existed we'd be using some descendant of lcc or tcc... on Linux.

PMS?

[Anonymous Coward]

Sounds like Linus is on his period..

Like IBM?

[ebyrob]

I suppose they're just sitting around dieing without ever a change in sight?

Microsoft Linux

[canuck57]

Microsoft Linux 2008

Compatible with open source, stolen and borrowed code. We own it, and invented the Internet and Linux. Buy a copy now and Open MS-Office (closed source with virus hooks and back doors built in) available now for a full featued desktop.

Even the EULA has improved, it is now twice as long, more complex and has been made into a 2 hour video.

Can now be backed up with the included MS-cpio. For corparate customers, secure file copy and encrypted interactive terminal sessions do not cost extra and are included with the MS-SSH package. You can also distribute these files around the clock using the reliable MS-RSync package.

For you personal protection there is MS-IPF firewall that protect not only what tries to get in, but also watches what goes out.

Corporations can easily prevent users from loading spyware, P2P, virus and other malware.

Comes with IE-Firefox, a new nify browser with less chance of being bothered by rude sites popups and viruses. We have customized it with new and improved annoyances.

Comes with a new reliable job scheduler called MS-cron. Never have to worry about setting the time as it uses MS-ntp for reliable and ultra accurate time settings.

For developers, MS-perl, MS-java, MS-C/C++, tcl, wish, php, MS-apache, MSksh, SHsh, MSawk, MSmysql MSprogress and MSsccs/rcs all await your pleasure and are included with the OS at no extra charge. Will save your company thousands

You can run your own servers with the optional included package of MS-imap, MS-sendmail, MS-DNS, MS-apache, MS-php and others, all Writen to Micosoft standards. Our developers have made sure buffer overflows and back doors exist for the NSA for legal compliance. Source is not provided so it is maintenace free.

The system can natively run open source. Although it is advised not to do so as it voids your warenty. See EULA line item 104786.

Comes with a real VM so when the boss comes by you can swap desktops quickly and reliably.

Get you MS-Linux for an introductory price of $999 *Which is less than Windows 2003 or 2005!

You are no longer bound to expensive Intel P5 chips. Runs on the Dragon 2008, systems usually start at $180 for a 3GHz quad processor.

Includes MS-OpenVPN to connect to work or your companys MS-Linux gateway. No extra charge. But will not work with Cisco.

Includes a threaded news reader to coordinate the threads of messages in the shared folders. No more will you need to search for related messages from 3 months ago.

But hurry, these prices will not last!

Re:Microsoft Linux

[mwooldri]

Get you MS-Linux for an introductory price of $999 *Which is less than Windows 2003 or 2005!

Please note that this is inclusive of SCO Linux license fees. (that is if SCO is still around in 2008...)

News from the future?

[NotQuiteReal]

Screw this Microsoft stuff - give me something marketable. Stock prices, sports scores, hell almost anything!

Linus more likely to be at Apple than Microsoft

[Queer Boy]

A more realistic idea would be Apple moving away from Darwin and moving to Linux. Not that it would happen, but it's more realistic. Apple has not done a ton of development on the BSD layer of Mac OS X, they have optimised a bit for PPC, that's about all. Since they already open source Darwin, it wouldn't be a conflict of interest.

Re:Linus more likely to be at Apple than Microsoft

[Ohreally_factor]

Not likely, QB. Apple has this less-famous-than-Linus genius named Avie Tevanian, who, as a student at Carnegie Mellon, was the principle designer of the Mach Kernel (Mach was his thesis). Jobs hired way Avie back during the NeXT days, and NeXTstep was based on the Mach micro kernel. Not suprisingly, Darwin is based on Mach.

So what do you think the chances are that Apple's Chief Software Technology Officer would port the OS to a different Kernel? I won't say it's impossible, but it's very improbable.

Hmm...

[game kid]

Windows is now some sort of desktop environment on top of an open OS!

But does it still run Linux?

Never gonna happen

[frankgod]

There's absolutely no incentive for Microsoft to split the OS into a kernel and interface, much less making any part of it open-source. It seems unlikely that this will ever be the case. Proprietary formats and interfaces, keeping software monolithic and highly tied together is what keeps them in control. Any sort of split like would make it much easier for someone else to get in on it, in this case making a replacement for that Windows interface. Could be FOSS, could be Google or Oracle, and they would all rightly say "the bottom half of our OS is the same as M$'s." It would be much easier to break in and steal some of the pie that Microsoft has all to itself right now, and they aren't going to let that happen.

Re:Linus looks like a penguin

[Anonymous Coward]

Man, you're on crack.
That's the skinniest penguin I've ever seen!

Re:Hmm... Linux

[RazzleDazzle]

or maybe it runs MS Linux?

DANGER! DANGER!

[Anonymous Coward]

But how were you going to do that against products that were free?

This is the 2nd time I have read this argument in as many days. Is it just me or are Slashdotters are as bad as Americans for forgetting the lessons of history?

Netscape was free. At that time everybody hailed it as the next great thing because "how can you compete with free?". Netscape got crushed because MS did know how to compete with free:

- They made it much easier to get IE than Netscape. Who cares if Netscape is a better browser? Who cares if IE has more leaks than a chickenwire dingy? If the average person has to walk 10 feet to pick up a hammer, they'll happily use a flat rock instead.

- They strongarmed their distributors. It didn't matter that it was illegal. They figured, quite rightly, that they had enough time to stall the courts until it didn't matter and enough money to buy the courts if it did. The end result was a little from column A and a little from column B.

- They lied to the developers and the public. They told them "sure this version has a few glitches but the next version will be perfect". They didn't have to worry about the fact that they had been spouting this line about one shoddy product after another for 20 years. They knew that they could count on the fact that, like an abused spouse, the public and the investors wanted to believe that, this time, things would be different.

If the OSS community believes, for a second, that Microsoft won't find a way, however unjust, immoral or illegal to compete with free AND better, we are hooped.

I suggested this before...

[FridayBob]

http://slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=126068&cid=105 56200

IBM almost died in the 80s

[Ars-Fartsica]

Right before Louis Gerstner started, the firm was in dire straits. There was talk of breaking it up and selling off the units. Gerstner held tough, but he also ended up laying off thousands and thousands of employees.

It wasn't until the mid 90s that IBM started to shine again...it literally took Gerstner a decade to turn it around.

Re:IBM almost died in the 80s

[ggvaidya]

And Chrysler went from one of America's largest corporations to near bankrupcy before it was turned around in the 80s. I think GP's point is that large corporations can survive. In business, the bigger you are, the stronger you are, and MS is one big cookie.

Asinine accusations

[Anonymous Coward]

Try this one on for size: your machine has configuration problems or spyware or something.

Not Representative of MSFT

[buzzini]

There are apparently many current/former Microsofties fuming at the parent post, but I guess everyone wants to post anonymously or not at all. I'm gone and have nothing to lose, so here goes.

The parent post is a superficial and completely unrepresentative perspective of Microsoft. The author seemed to be pandering to Slashdot preconceptions more than anything. In reality, Microsoft is an amazing company full of ridiculously intelligent CS folks i.e. top students from top CS programs. Whereas at many companies I've been exposed to, there are a couple smart people here and there and everyone else is just sleepwalking, Microsoft is almost entirely composed of smartest-guy-in-the-room types.

Some notes:

* This guy is a contractor. Contractors are generally not very well-respected at Microsoft. The quality people are full-time almost without exception.
* Almost no one at Microsoft works in a cubicle. Full-time employees have real offices with real doors that close so that you can concentrate.
* There is no "acceptance of mediocrity" at Microsoft. In fact, it is entirely the opposite. There is a culture of self-criticism and self-castigation throughout the company, especially in divisions like Office.
* The only times I observed the internal network to be "slow" was when the company was dogfooding an early release. If the network were really as slow as the author describes, people would not be able to get their work done.
* What internal tools are you referring to? RAID (the bug-tracking system) is pretty great overall and all of the business process management stuff was the best I've seen at any company.

I'll leave it at that.

Re:Not Representative of MSFT

[Phragmen-Lindelof]

One of our current graduate students worked at MS for approximately ten years and was heavily involved in the development of one of their well known products. He said there were many extremely smart people at MS. These people generally had huge egos and did not accept criticism well. The end result was products which did not work well because person A and person B did not write compatable code but it all was put into the final product. He liked MS as a place to work but for whatever reason decided to get his PhD in math. (I know, math PhDs are really easy to get; you don't need to be smart to get one.) :-)

Re:Not Representative of MSFT

[buzzini]

I know what you mean...I can remember a particular occasion where two very smart/stubborn developers had each created largely overlapping technologies and were both intent on proselytizing for their version. In those situations, it's really the job of a dev manager to step in and make a call. My sense is that this sort of conflict happens pretty rarely with the more mature products.

In any case, your graduate student sounds like precisely the sort of bright, pragmatic person that is typical at MS...not a part of the supposed "culture of mediocrity" dreamed up by some contractor.

Re:Not Representative of MSFT

[Anonymous Coward]

Gotta disagree with some of the points here. I know plenty of teams that were packed like rats into cubicles and 2 or 3 to an office over in Redwest for years...all depends on where you are if you get an office or not (although I admit having your own office is generally the norm). There *is* plenty of acceptance of medicrity at MS. It wasn't the case eight years ago, but the attitude is pretty prevalent today...especially in the larger more bureaucratic groups. Turf wars are often apparent. I certainly never once in my tenure here witnessed a culture of self-criticism...ESPECIALLY in Office. YMMV. Never had a problem with the network. And, yes, RAID did kick-ass...alas it is not used so much anymore.

Re:Not Representative of MSFT

[Anonymous Coward]

ok lets see here...

cubicles/packed like rats: you're talking 5+ years ago when redwest was still a mess. these days id say...90% have their own offices (excluding previously mentioned group in millennium)? can we agree that its definitely not the "borg"-ish environment many slashdot readers imagine/wish it is? i mean cmon, we have waterfalls and cool paths and all the rest.

acceptance of mediocrity: i disagree bigtime. yes, you encounter it once in a while particularly in groups that are downtrodden after years of losing money/not being successful in the marketplace. but a ton of people i run into are OBSESSED with their products and designs. im becoming curious what group youre in so that i can calcu-specu-late who you might have been exposed to.

turf wars: i think this is often by design. remember marvel vs ~3 other groups (by design)? netdocs vs office (by design)? i think the idea is to foster competitiveness while hedging bets.

self-criticism: seen tons of this too. microsoft is by far the most intellectually aggressive environment ive been in.

but like you said with both of these points, ymmv.

network: agreed, no problem there.

tools/raid: i dont have a lot to compare ms's tools to, but i never thought they were deficient.

Re:Not Representative of MSFT

[Anonymous Coward]

"* There is no "acceptance of mediocrity" at Microsoft. In fact, it is entirely the opposite. There is a culture of self-criticism and self-castigation throughout the company, especially in divisions like Office."

Really?, ok then explain Win9x

Re:Not Representative of MSFT

[Anonymous Coward]

What about it? Windows 95 was a huge improvement over Windows 3.11, aimed for home users the day lack of security was much less a source for bad PR than today, so they put less focus on it.

Re:Not Representative of MSFT

[Anonymous Coward]

Although I'm sure the truth lies somewhere between your post and the parent, I can't completely believe your account of things. If MS is really staffed with "smartest guy in the room"[1] types, then why is Windows so bad?

Is it because they only have techies and no artists to keep them honest? Is it because there's so many smart people (who tend to be opinionated) that they can't get on the same page?[2]

There is something that you aren't telling us that would explain why the products (outside of Office) are so mediocre.

ForgottenLogin

[1] I don't doubt that they higher the best and brightest, I'd be surprised if they didn't.

[2] Google seems to do it.

Re:Not Representative of MSFT

[Anonymous Coward]

I have no idea about the internal workings of Microsoft. However, if they are free of the conflicts which cause problems in their more mature products, why is windows so crappy?

Re:Not Representative of MSFT

[Anonymous Coward]

"crappy"? im guessing you also have no idea about CS. turns out windows isn't so crappy after all. fast boot time, fast awake-from-hibernation time, extremely stable, strong compatibility, well-tuned scheduler, excellent tcp/ip implementation, etc, etc.

Re:Not Representative of MSFT

[Anonymous Coward]

for the record: as a "top" student in a "top" computer science dept, it is WAY harder to get a developer or program manager job at microsoft than a comparable job at, say, apple.

or oracle.
or sun.
or ibm (ha, ibm).

microsofts interviews are brutal and are all about intelligence. there only places that are harder to get into are harder because theyre smaller.

(ok its probably harder to get hired as an associate at mckinsey or as a banker at goldman sachs, but thats apples & oranges as far as im concerned)

[1] windows is actually pretty damn good overall. you might want to challenge the script kiddie "WIND0Z3 SUX0R3" assumptions on that. most people who say that have no f'ing idea what a "good" OS is.

[2] there are plenty of artists...ever seen the beautiful design of msn explorer? and btw, google is way overhyped. the reason you think google people are smart is because their HR marketing plan has been designed to make you believe that. math posters on the highway? what a ploy.

Re:Not Representative of MSFT

[Anonymous Coward]

In reality, Microsoft is an amazing company full of ridiculously intelligent CS folks i.e. top students from top CS programs.

I graduated from a "top CS program". Top people from top CS programs does not *at all* imply top developer. I know *lots* of straight-A students who can talk for hours about how AI works or how to build a raytracer or the 7 quickest ways to invert a matrix -- but most of them have never written a program over 5,000 lines long, and none of them has done anything involving a user-interface.

There is no "acceptance of mediocrity" at Microsoft. In fact, it is entirely the opposite. There is a culture of self-criticism and self-castigation throughout the company, especially in divisions like Office.

If this was really true, then why are their products so mediocre?

Microsoft has a *huge* user interface lab. Apple's is reportedly tiny, and they're shutting it down. Yet Microsoft is getting beateng left and right on the user interface front. I'm told that Microsoft is indeed doing great user-interface work, but most of it never makes it to shipping products. (I would not be surprised to learn that this extends to other areas.)

Nobody doubts there are lots of smart people at Microsoft. But they're just not delivering.

Re:Not Representative of MSFT

[indiechild]

I know that there are plenty of brilliant people working at Microsoft. However, they are probably doing research only and not working on releasing the final end product, which can end up truly mediocre.

Internet Explorer, anyone?

Sounds like MS has the right people for the job, but along the line something is going seriously wrong.

Re:Not Representative of MSFT

[Anonymous Coward]

Having worked as MS myself (and soon to return), I would agree that the contractor did not post a very accurate description. While I have met some surprisingly inept people, I would say a good 97% of the full timers are extremely bright, top-notch CS grads who have lives revolving around computing.

It sounds like a rather big assumption (particularly from someone who seems to have no experience inside MS) to say that the "brilliant people" are probably just doing research and not working on the final product. From my experience, the people working on the final product are quite exceptional and tough code reviews, code reviews, and more code reviews are nothing but the rule at the group I worked for. However, it is true that the people working for Microsoft Research are even smarter. A Ph.D. is all but required to work in MSR. Nonetheless, much of MSR technology goes into the final product and those who work on the final product are certainly still among the best programmers I've seen.

As for your Internet Explorer analogy. That's not a bad point. But since MS is a corporation, developments are done with business in mind. Much of IE's vunerabilites were developed in response to increasing competition from Netscape. Active X is probably the biggest security problem in IE, but is also the feature that drove much of the competitive edge for MS during the browser wars. Unfortunately, development on IE all but stalled for a while when the browser wars ended. You have to remember that the late 90's were much less focused on security; remember these were the days when people were telnetting into Unix terminals! Security has become a huge priority in recent times and, as a result, Microsoft strategy has changed to focus on that. I'm sure you will be seeing big changes to Internet Explorer in the coming years.

That's all for now ... sorry to post as an anonymous coward, but I'm not registered on here ... will do that soon!

Re:Not Representative of MSFT

[Anonymous Coward]

Uh-huh. UI on Windows platforms needs to work on an entire range of machines. Apples UI needs to work on their hardware ... and nothing else.

Running an exorbitant UI on Windows would break half of the computers out there. So it's not exactly a fair comparison. At the very least, the DEFAULT config on Windows must be much more modest in terms of CPU/memory/graphics use than what Apple can afford.

Reportidly Longhorn will have a GUI that can adapt to your computer speed quite well though without having to manually adjust settings.

Re:Not Representative of MSFT

[Anonymous Coward]

Gotta agree about Redwest being "packed." New employees often share an office with one other person, but most people have their own office. And no cubicles that I'm aware of.

I should know ... I work there :-)

Re:Not Representative of MSFT

[Anonymous Coward]

good summary...i agree on most points.

rough difference between employees in msr vs. ms product groups:
-- msr: professors poached from stanford/cmu/...
-- product groups: top cs grads from stanford/cmu/mit/berkeley/cornell/...

the difference is really one of career path (academia vs professional) rather than ability.

Re:Not Representative of MSFT

[Anonymous Coward]

Apple's idea of improving their user interfaces: make prettier widgets and fancy animations.

Microsoft's idea of improving their user interfaces: incorporate empirically-proven designs to increase user success on common tasks.

Proficient computer users naturally prefer Apple's approach since they don't need help and just want things to look nice. But the other 98% of the population benefits more from Microsoft's approach.

Re:Jesus Christ was a motherfucker

[Anonymous Coward]

Excellent.

I'm going to spraypaint that on a few churches...

Two days later

[That's Unpossible!]

The Microsoft Memo: +1 Funny Wednesday January 26, @09:12AM Rejected

Fuck you, I've got karma to burn.

The silly thing is...

[spectecjr]

The silly thing is... nothing in that memo actually gives any benefits for replacing the NT kernel with the Linux kernel.

Reason being, there aren't any. Windows may have plenty of other problems - but the kernel isn't one of them.

Running Windows on top of the Linux kernel would be a pointless geeky exercise in masturbation - great for the penguinistas out there, but ultimately providing zero benefit. About all it would do would be to suck a lot of money into the void - something that Microsoft as a whole seems pretty good at recently. At least some people are complaining about it though.

I hope we avoid pain

[v0idnull]

Can you imagine what a nightmare life will be if windows loses dominance? If the desktop market changes radically? It's already hard enough to create graphical applications that are optimized for two video cards, web applications for four or five browsers, programming code for two or more compilers, db layers for two or more databases, what are we going to do when now we have ot start making things for two or more operating systems or risk a considerble loss of business?

The only real thing I can think of that makes sense is to replace client apps with web apps. But that poses enough risks on its own. Though, rumor has it that Microsoft is gearing up to release Office 12 as a web app and not a client app, buta gain, those are just rumors.

yes opensource

[chrisranjana.com]

Yes opensource is gaining ground day by day

Re:OK (Microsoft/Linus pr0n??)

[JummiJammi]

>curl http://google.com/search?q=harry+draco+slash+ficti on&btnI= | sed "s/Harry/Linus/g" | sed "s/Draco/Bill/g"

The document has moved

The very first line...

[OwlofDoom]

...gave this away as the pile of poorly-researched, childish rubbish that it is:

From the office of Linus Torvald

Enough said, as far as I'm concerned.

BEST. COMMENT. EVAR!!!!!!11

[Ohreally_factor]

Funniest one on this discussion.

The dead hand of X...

[argent]

There are some things that both X and Windows suck at. Don't take X as your ideal. Look at Intuition, NeWS, Display Postscript as well.

For example, how about making all the gadgets independent of the app, so that an application can be slow and unresponsive without the UI getting out of sync with your actions. Put things like menus and standard buttons and panes and icons in the display server. If you want to customise them a bit, use a script. NeWS used Postsctipt, today you'd probably use Javascript.

That also buys you better remotability. Plus you can establish a lot more common policy than just mouse focus.

Re:The dead hand of X...

[DunbarTheInept]

how about making all the gadgets independent of the app, so that an application can be slow and unresponsive without the UI getting out of sync with your actions.

That's impossible. The purpose of the UI is to give instructions to the app. If the app is unresponsive, then fiddling with UI buttons won't have any meaningful effect, unless they are UI buttons that are external to the app's purpose (like, resizing the window frame for example, is external to the app's purpose, but clicking a link inside a brwoser is not.)

Therefore to solve this problem requires that the app be written as either seperate processes or as seperate threads of a process. Either way, it's still the app coder that has to deal with it. And even then it doesn't really solve the problem. The real problem is, "why is the app hung in the first place?"

Re:The dead hand of X...

[argent]

I wrote: "how about making all the gadgets independent of the app, so that an application can be slow and unresponsive without the UI getting out of sync with your actions."

That's impossible.

I feel like I'm in "The Princess Bride". "that word, you keep using that word, I don't think it means what you think it means."

Not only is it not "impossible", but it's been implemented dozens of times in everything from IBM's old mainframe terminals to the latest web browsers. It's how the web works. It's how AmigaOS' GUI (Intuition) works, it's how Sun's NeWS (Network Extensible Window System" works. Every time you post to slashdot, you're working with exactly that kind of scheme, with the input and responses going on in your web browser and the whole filled-out form only going back to the application in the webserver when you're done. If the webserver had to respond for every click and keystroke, the web simply wouldn't work... because the webserver would be too slow and unresponsive.

The same scheme, on a shorter term, can make VERY slow and low performance systems... where opening a file can take seconds and parsing a document half a minute or more. If an application is busy doing something for, oh, a couple of seconds, that's a HELL of a long delay for the UI to respond to your request... but the UI can *still* have all the information it needs to make that response (bring up menus, change the visible state of checkboxes, change the color of an icon)... so by the time the app gets back a second or two later you're waiting for the output, not waiting for a chance to complete your input.

If your X11 based application took a second to respond to every keystroke as you filled in a form, that would be "slow and unresponsive". If instead it only had to respond to less frequent events (anything from "user has completed inputing this form" down to "user has updated this textbox", depending on the tradeoff you're making) a program that took a second to respond could feel quite fast.

Re:The dead hand of X...

[DunbarTheInept]

The way the web works is the perfect example of an application being "the UI getting out of sync with your actions" Your words, what you claim the web does, is exactly the opposite of what the web does. A web application is NEVER in sync with the UI. Ever.

The way to do what you are talking about is to accept that it is OKAY for the UI to be out of sync with the actions. It's okay for the UI to get ahead of the application and do stuff the application isn't aware of yet - that's called being A-syncronous, not being syncronous. That's why my statement is still 100% correct. It is impossible to do what you were talking about - divorce the UI widgets from the application and still keep the UI in sync. Your examples here support that and yet you claim they disprove it.

Re:The dead hand of X...

[argent]

The way the web works is the perfect example of an application being "the UI getting out of sync with your actions"

In the sense that I would use that phrase, the web only gets out of sync with your actions when something goes wrong (you double-click on a link and get multiple fetches in the queue, you hit reload and repost a form, etcetera). If your actions produce repeatable and reliable results that don't depend on fine details of timing, then they're as close to in sync as they need to be.

A user interface is a soft real-time environment, not a hard real-time one.

In fact, it's much easier for a directly controlled user interface to get out of sync with your actions. It's fairly common for a GUI to actually slow you down, because the application is out of sync and by the time your clicks are registered a different UI element is under the mouse pointer.

Putting the UI closer to you than to the application is the best possible way of keeping the UI in sync with what you're doing.

The UI may be out of sync with the application, but who cares? If the application is multithreaded it can even be "out of sync" with itself. that's the whole point of an asynchronous environment (hell, we're using the same words to describe it). Keeping the UI in sync with the user is the key, what the application does under the covers is an implementation detail.

This site is living a dream

[NeedleSurfer]

And its all good, the more people dream this very dream the more chance you have that it becomes reality so I'm all fine with it. The thing is, realize at least its a dream, 2008 Windows over "open source" (Linux)... we are in 2005, no one in the world but the geek who write for it uses Linux, and even then if you look at the market share of each distribution (which is sadly impossible to do but easy to evaluate) its even worst. This dream CAN come true but we are far from it (so not 2008), everyday when I read Slashdot I keep reading articles that goes like: Linux is the most important OS, Linux has already conquered the world, Microsoft bowing down in front Linus Trovald, Linus named king of the world, everybody uses open source, the 3 person still using windows should quit... and so on.

I mean guys, this is total fantasy world. We all dream of the day it will be true, all of us believe me but its surely not by constantly lying to oneself about reality that this will happen. Seeing your OS of choice where it isnt can only hurt its credibility. How many times you guys have claimed Linus was now desktop ready? Lots, constantly, to a point where some people have actually tried it... big mistake huh... cause you and I know its not desktop ready, and so did all the people I know who tried it and swore they would never again...

Far-fetched dream

[swb]

It's a far fetched dream, but I'd like to see an ultrabasic meta-os that would basically be for managing hardware resources and VMs, with actual desktop OS environment(s) booted within VMs.

Kind of like booting an OS, and then running VMWare and actually having your everyday environments in VMWare. Except the "OS" in my dream isn't a full-fledged OS and hardware resources can be exclusively reserved for specific VMs, and the VMs run faster.

Not Longhorn, LongTIME

[Anonymous Coward]

Didn't you RTFA?

By 2008 they changed the name...

Thats GNU Winux You Fools

[Anonymous Coward]

My sources heard that after reading the article RMS was seen running around shouting "Its GNU Winux! Say GNU WinX!? That's GNU Winux you farken fools!?!

WinX already exists...

[wackoweazil]

There is already a project named WinX-OS. Not from the FAT guys over at MICROSOFT, but from two skinny South African guys. I am one of them. We havent posted anything about this OS-Project on the internet yet, but it has been in discussion stage for about six months, and we are ready to start coding... finally ! Just wanted you to know this... keep an eye at https://sourceforge.net/users/winxos/ for more info later on !!

Re:WinX already exists...

[mark99]

You guys are good at keeping secrets...

Re:WinX already exists...

[wackoweazil]

Haha... well, we are working on a website so that we can let the world know about us, what we are planning to do, and of course, keep everybody interested up to date with happenings. It wont be another Linux, that's all I am going to say for now =)

Real classy

[Burz]

* This guy is a contractor. Contractors are generally not very well-respected at Microsoft. The quality people are full-time almost without exception.

And I'm just sure you're no exception. Taking the parent's general description of his work environment as an opportunity to go a personal ego-trip?

nice

[torrents]

interesting read, not very plausible but interesting nonetheless

Not quite

[Anonymous Coward]

Actually, I think it's true in most software companies that the contractors are generally less capable (or perhaps just less experienced). Don't project your anger/bitterness that MS is actually a great company onto the messenger(s).

Reality

[Anonymous Coward]

I am talking about the Texas Long Horns, not his over priced "Ivory" league schools.

Did you watch the Inaugural Address? Did you watch the arm gestures he made?

Watch Friday Night Lights, and you will get a good idea for what Texas is all about, and while you are educating your self, look into the book "Power Failure".

Re:Reality

[bStrom]

I lived in Texas for 6 years - I went to school in Houston. I know who the Longhorns are.

Re:get over it geeks

[droolfool]

I wonder how long until all geeks stop giving a f*ck about what OS will prevail :-P