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Chinese Force Mass Closure Of Net Cafes
Chien Andalusia writes "According to this article from the BBC, the Chinese authorities closed 12,575 net cafes towards the end of 2004. Due to the expense of computer hardware, net cafés have become very popular in China in recent years. The laws governing such cafés are very strict, especially in relation to minimising the amount of exposure children can get to the internet. For example, no net café is allowed to open within 200 metres of a middle or elementary school. The article also briefly discusses other restrictions imposed on Chinese net cafés."
Nothing for you to see here. Please move along.
Probably what the Chinese gov't had to say, too...
Serve alcohol at the Inertnet cafe and the problem is solved. No controversy either
My Linux - (L)ove (I)s (N)ever (U)tterly eXPensive
I suppose it's only a matter of time til the chinese government learns what most people already know. If more than a few people know a piece of information, then it's pretty hopeless to try to contain it.
Now if only the RIAA/MPAA would learn this lesson.
Because it's important that we limit, as much as is possible, our children's exposure to information, education, technology, or anything else that might shape them into better, more productive members of society.
China: The Biggest Red State.
Finally someone doesn't want their public subject to so much inane american propaganda.
Hooray. Less spam.
Reading my mailserver logs, it seems the only thing the Chinese use the Internet for is spam, spam, spam.
By expanding "free trade agreements" and raising the H1-B quota !!!
Chinese government restrictive, controlling bastards. But given the Great Leap Forwards, assorted purges on intellectuals, the show trials, the widespread censorship, the repression of Tibet and the Tiananmen Square Massacre, did we not know this already?
So, why is this news?
Athletic Scholarships to universities make as much sense as academic scholarships to sports teams.
If we don't like our government, we can vote them out. If Chinese don't like their goverment, they go to jail.
There is a big difference.
In other news, the Chinese goverment are a bunch of commie bastards, SCO are liars, and Microsoft has a monopoly on the desktop market. Seriously though, this kind of reporting is good. People tend to forget about this kind of stuff unless they're frequently reminded.
It does because china isn't immune to war crimes...nor do they threaten 3rd world countries to remove aid if they don't vote to keep americans immunity
No more Nescafe? whatever will I drink?!?!?
Prostitution and gambling are legal in Nevada. I can't help you with the other stuff, but maybe you want to consider moving.
And there are places in China where net.cafes are still legal, so I guess the Chinese can move, too.
China, for all the hype about markets opening up their society, is still a totalitarian communist country. I'm not surprised that they've cracked down on the cafes; I'm surprised they exist at all.
Life is hard, and the world is cruel
Globalism has it's benefits: cheap foreign labor gets our jobs and we get cheap junk at WalMart. It's a win-win situation.
During history big emprires have allways done what they think is best for themselves. The voice of the people and definitely other countries have no bearing on those, thus I do not see anything special from historical perspective with the american empire.
Are you sure?
... good guys win in the end.
I read Heinlein's "The Sixth Column"
You'll be eating your words and drinking George Dubbas H2Oil in 15-20 years when china becomes a super power to rival that of former russia
We will impose our elitist totolitarian regime on you because of the Children! Won't you think of the children? (Thud) How about now? (Whap) Now? Good!
~D
This sig has been enciphered with a one-time pad. It could say almost anything.
its not an american empire. its an Oilarchy. I just hope the world wakes up and forces the american farce of a nation into recession
What is a net.cafe? It's a 'net cafe surely?
America isn't an empire by any definition of the word.
We all hate what the Chinese government are doing to their population, but all you admins out there, think about it. Their censorship technology is the best in the world, and it would improve production if it was implemented in USA companies. How would it improve production you ask? It will, for example, keep people from reading Slashdot all day.
What is a net.cafe?
It's similar to a flaming pedantic asshole, but instead it's a cafe with computers inside that you use for a fee. In countries without ubiquitous net.access they are quite popular.
You'll be eating your words and drinking George Dubbas H2Oil in 15-20 years when china becomes a super power to rival that of former russia
By which time they'll be just another capatalist hegemony, much like yesterday's Britain and today's US. If you dislike capatalist hegemonies so much, why are you gloating over this?
Do you mean that being a Muslim or taking aspirin are illegal throughout the USA?
What is a cafe? Did you mean café?
Gore and Kerry both conceded. Get over it, they did.
Nothing to see here...
At least the ban for inet cafe close to elementary school. In Argentina we have a similar situation, there are a lot of inet cafes because hardware is very expensive since peso devaluation and Internet conection is also expensive. Most inet cafes are used to chat using MSN and IRC and playing FPSMPG (like Counter Strike), so boys hang around for hours there instead of studying. It is very cheap, because there are a lot of inet cafes, it cost about 0.35$/hour, that is cheap even for us. Boys mostly plays and some MSN, and girls go just to chat via MSN.
I am giving a basic computer course in an elementary school (9 to 12 years old) and they are asking me to teach them just to chat, even before learning how to type!
DNA in your Linux: DNALinux
I was in Beijing last summer, and the one thing that struck me was how our American media promotes an image of an evil tyranny in China. (While it is true that most freedoms - as we know them here - don't exist, it isn't the spawn of evil its made out to be.)
;)
I had no problems accessing the Net from my hotel - albeit an intl. dialup connection - and even visited a few Net cafes. Most people I spoke to said the Internet was great but that we Americans don't realize that what we may want or consider a "great freedom" here in the US is not considered as important in the rest of the world. (Alright before you start going berserk and start spewing off about basic human rights, consider that we have made many, many mistakes in the past and it took us time as well to reach a state where we consider these freedoms as our rights; give 'em time!)
Anyway, my point being, Internet was completely accessible except for a few sites that seemed to be proxied out at the Net cafes - Slashdot being one of them!
I see no idea with this, well, china CLICK YES TO CONTINUE
It can be consider as a slogan that the Gov want to protect child,the underneath is the Gov dear the spread of Internet will open the free gateway for information leak externally and internally
Its their country, their rules.. internet access is not a 'human right'..
Slow news day i guess.
---- Booth was a patriot ----
This has nothing to do with "Freedom of speech", or should I say, the intention of it is to prevent kids from spending too much of their spare time on those cafes playing game. If anyone has been to such cafe in China would know there are almost NO adults in these cafe except young kids. And as a matter of fact, they are playing games instead of "Freedom of speech".
If there would be "speech" during the course, its just someone looking for ONS, instead of the "POLITICAL FREEDOM OF SPEECH". Most adult will use their own computers at home instead of the dirty, ugly public "internet cafe".
This action helps to keep the kids a little bit away the computers and do some real physical pratices.
Secondly, this also helps to crack down the pirate softwares across those so called "internet cafe".
Just to clarify, in term of internet connection, there is no difference from home or from "internet cafe". They all go to the same gateway which prevents anyone from accessing "unauthorised contents".
BTW, 99% of the "Internet cafe" in China has no cafe!
I notice its a little smaller Atlas
Talk to your own goverment if you want to quibble semantics about what "drugs" mean, because they haven't offered any clearer distinction between the ones they pick as illegal and aspirin than I have.
Since the USSC thankfully denied Bush's request to be able to seize American citizens, in America, and hold them as "enemy combatants" without legal rights, I guess it isn't illegal to be a Muslim in the US... yet.
BTW, what do you think of the United States' actions in Guantanamo?
America doesn't really have an Empire, it has military bases scattered about the place but that's it.
However it is the worlds most powerful country and it may well have been the case in the past that other countries in the same position may have just suited themselves that doesn't mean it's a good thing and indeed a lot of Empire began to fall apart when they did start to consider their effects on those around them, this is one reason why America is not still a part of the British Empire.
Your workforce is not cattle. Don't treat them as such ( note: I'm not happy with how we treat cattle either ). I give my employees their taskes, they finish them to the best of their ability. I don't care how, as long as it's done by the deadline, everyone is happy. They can fuck around on slashdot for the entire week, as long as that report is on my desk by friday 5pm, they are gold.
Mod me down with all of your hatred and your journey towards the dark side will be complete!
Besides the fact that you didn't even try to turn "oil" into something acceptably greek, your claim still doesn't make sense.
Patriarchy is "rule of the fathers".
Oligarchy is "rule of the few".
Anarchy is "no rule".
Olearchy would be "rule of the unctuous combustible substances."
Wow, the people in power don't like something and want to see it censored or banned.
So, to try and convince the public, they announce that the thing that THEY don't like is dangerous for children...
THEN, once you've established that it is bad for children, you can get rid of it altogether in the name of protecting children!
I'm glad that would never happen here!
"Must even the most un-related news items be somehow tortured into a reason to self-proclaim one's rights to an artist's work, unpaid-for?"
I know a lot of you hippies say this stuff, but the truth is that the RIAA pays a some musicians for their work, and that not all of them are forced into bankruptcy by bad contracts that are offered by the RIAA.
So the RIAA doesn't claim that they don't need to pay musicians; its just that they (rightfully) set up the contract so that you have to sell a lot of records.
Besides, if the musician doesn't like it, then don't sign the contract!
For example, no net café is allowed to open within 200 metres of a middle or elementary school.
That's kinda like in Indiana how there is a law that says you can't sell alcohol within 150 feet of a church.
I worked at a grocery store once that couldn't sell it because of that silly law.
But time and time again, China demonstrates, that it still remains evil, embracing parts and aspects of Western capitalist democracy only as a more efficient way of doing things, rather than out of genuine desire to promote freedom...
How do they manage to escape the scrutiny of the same freedom-minded people, who can not talk about Bush without foam forming on their mouthes?
The same people, who insult politicians by painting swastikas on their portraits, but proudly wear Che Guevara T-shirts (with red star on top)?..
In Soviet Washington the swamp drains you.
Its a good thing those cafes are 200m away. This is sure to be too far a walk for the chinese computer CHUDs the internet will surely spawn:)
Quite simply, it won't happen...
unless of course you're willing to play "Scorched Earth" and cut your throat along with ours.
Because we love freedom!
You have two hands and one brain, so always code twice as much as you think!
We think it's so easy to change a culture just by handing them the tools to do it. Sure, something will happen, and it might even be roughly what we expect, but I submit that the majority of people here sitting at their computers cheerful advocating the overturning of an entire governmental system and associated culture have . . . really no clue what they're dealing with.
I truly believe that education is the silver bullet, that information and communication are what will lift the human race to heights undreamed of. I just think there's something a little deserving of pause about saying "culture of compliance, family, and subservience? Pssh, here, let's give them SSH and proxies and do our best to overturn all controls and make their internet develop like ours, and with a mouse-click, throw down a government we think isn't handling stuff right. It's not that we shouldn't change things we feel are wrong, it's that we should be aware we're dealing with a whole different culture than what most of us are used to, and that culture isn't necessarially just going to morph into the 'standard' one if handed the tools.
I'm not an expert on China; I don't even have a strong opinion on what anyone should do about this kind of thing. I just think it's good to pause now and then and think about what we're doing.
xkcd.com - a webcomic of mathematics, love, and language.
those rights to the Record Companies voluntarily, in exchange for big bags of cash and hats made out of money.
The fact that most artists waste those bags of cash trying to outdo each other buying $500,000 dimaond studded watches, and cruising around town in stretch HumVee limos, and then complain that the record companies are cheating them is irrelevant.
The RIAA represents the those who hold the rights to the creative works.
China: The Biggest Red State
If China ever was truly communist (which I doubt), it sure as hell ain't now.
As someone said, when they embraced capitalism, China went from being one of the last major left-wing dictatorships to being one of the last major right-wing dictatorships.
Which doesn't necessarily make them any more free.
It's all bullcrap anyway; the supposedly left-wing North Korea is run in a pseudo-monarchistic manner by Kim Jong-Il, who took over from his father. This is about as un-left wing as you can get; not that it makes any difference. Whatever their *claimed* alleigance, dictatorships are dictatorships are dictatorships, run for the benefit of the ruling party; in that sense, they are *all* right-wing, but not in a remotely "freedom-loving" way.
The more I think about this, the more the left/right wing labels seem like a joke; they only really have relevance when it comes to free societies.
"Slashdot - News and Chat Sites Deviant". (Click "homepage" link above for details).
Because all your internet cafes will be shut down.
The main causes given for the closures is locating a Cybercafé right next to a school and allowing minors free access to pornography. What chance do you think a Cybercafé would have to continue trading in the EU, US etc. if it was found to be a magnet for truants and/or providing unfettered access to pornography to minors? They also restrict violent games to certain age groups, which is different to the age requirements we have on our computer game boxes, how exactly? Doom 3 is rated "18" in the UK for example, and companies can be prosecuted for breaking that restriction and selling the game to a minor. The same goes for logging all outbound access - you'd be insane not to log everything if you were running a Cybercafé in the event someone launched a cracking attempt from your premises.
OK, I do have concerns that these logs are going to be "auditted" by the Chinese government for what they might see as subversive elements, disloyal behaviour or whatever. The censorship of free access to information, even if it *is* pornography, should not be blocked - immoral and illegal should not automatically be the same thing. Still, at least the Chinese appear to understand that restricting Internet content is an internal matter and are making an effort to deal with it themselves instead of trying to ram their legislation down the throats of other nations. Now if only they would let their people have a larger say in what was and was not permitted...
UNIX? They're not even circumcised! Savages!
Greek? We speak english here. archy means to rule Oilarchy - rule for oil...or woodside
Just like the "barbarians" in Europe couldn't stand Roman rule and ultimately pitched us into the Dark Ages. Like it or not, the world is heavily dependent on the American economy. It won't be forever, but at the moment it is.
REG: All right, but apart from the sanitation, the medicine, education, wine, public order, irrigation, roads, a fresh water system, and public health, what have the Romans ever done for us?
XERXES: Brought peace.
REG: Oh. Peace? Shut up!
Nah, he meant a caff, as in Cath's Caff.
To be fair, it hasn't helped American children.
When any POV that's remotely controversial is modded into the dustbin?
Close-mindedness does not lend itself well to earnest truth-seeking.
I suggest reading these articles:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Expectancy_effect
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confirmation_bias
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magical_thinking
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cognitive_dissonance
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Falsifiability I know... -1, Offtopic. You soulless bastards.
America vs Rest of the Earth in a big game of Roshambo....Rest of the Earth goes first.
Well I cannot say for China as I have not been there but I have been to Ireland. And while there my primary means of communication with people was aim and email in internet cafes. From my experience there was some guy working there who could care less what you did as long as you paid and he would usually marginally know how to fix computer/network issues.
:)
It was pretty free in terms of what people could and couldn't do on the internet but I don't remember ever seeing kids in the cafes. I want to say I remember there being an age restriction like 16/18 that seems to have been enforced pretty well but I had quite a few pints over there so my memory might not be 100%
The chinese are investing millions into electric and hydrogen based car research, so I doubt the first one will be right.
Nothing costs nothing
It's interesting to see the comments here - everybody is so wise and knowledgable as to what the motives of the Chinese government are. And of course 'they are only out to cut off people's access to the hugely important information on the internet'. We all know that, don't we? Because they are evil communists; I mean that's EVIL, right?
Don't you think the Chinese government already know that they can't keep easily accessible information away from people? These people are clever - they are after all bringing China forward, from being a backward and poor country to now being poised to overtake USA, EU, Russia and Japan economically, scientifically and politically.
So why not try to think up something better than just repeating the usual drivel? Could it not be that these net-cafes are actually something that ought to be closed down? I mean, one thing is that about 99% of what you find on the Internet is worthless rubbish, but have you ever been in an average, Chinese internet cafe? I have - they are mostly small, cramped, filthy rooms where no attention has been paid to a basic thing as firesafety, not to mention that you can also very easily get much too close to the criminal environment; and Chinese gangs are not something that it is wise to get involved with at all.
No, in my opinion this is a good move, and one that most Chinese parents are probably happy with.
Wish I worked for an employer like you. I'm getting grief about coming in at 11am. The fact that I a) work about 20 hours per week longer than most and b) actually achieve things (unlike a large minority) seems to be completely beside the point.
...
If your butt's not warming the seat at 7.30am then you've "got a bad attitude". One of the guys on my team has had several "attitude reassignment meetings" I'm still waiting for my first... any day now
Because it only spews porn and spam. And not... say.. stuff like the truth about corrupt administrations or corporate shenanigans or false media reports or uniting disparate peoples with similar ideologies or...
... just sayin! don't go beserk now)
Nope, not an important freedom at all (Coz, y'know fire is destructive and pollutive too, California's trying to ban it!
and 'sides... you can still access the internet in China through Net Cafes.
Until now...
Becuase of the difference in cultural, you American sometimes cannot understand Chinese people. Something we think normal you think crazy. The reason to restrict build net cafe 200m away from school is that too many kids go to net cafes after school and spend too much time on computer games or internet surfing. Many parents complain about this. Another reason for closure is the porngraphy information. Viewing and keeping these pictures on pulic machines is prohibited in China. This is the same in pulic libraries in US.
Russia's still there, Einstein.
And Russia still has more nukes than any country in the world (yes, more than the US). Somehow, people still overlook that fact.
Almost all the netcafes I've visited in China had tons of people playing counterstrike. It could be possible that China wants to nip any school shooting ideas in the bud. OR... they're adding a daily workout to the many kids. Walking 200 meters every day to get that CS fix.
A "Rochambeau" in pro-wrestling means hitting someone in the testicles as hard as you can. Is that what you're talking about?
(if so, lol)
"Chinese authorities closed 12,575 net cafes towards the end of 2004. Due to the expense of computer hardware, net cafés have become very popular in China in recent years."
Expense of computer hardware? Computer hardware has never been cheaper!
They must all use Macs or something.
A lot of these net cafe are poorly constructed without proper safety facilities. A fire swept through an illegal net bar killing 24 and sending another 13 to hospital in 2002.
http://www.edu.cn/20020618/3059163.shtml
Not many businesses in China respect the safety standards that the western world take for granted. There are many ways, including bridery, to get around the safety inspections. So occasionally the government has to do some massive crack down. For one, to try to control the internet to please the critics in the communist party. Also, nobody would bride the safety inspectors if the government does not show that they are serious about the safety standards. A few weeks later these net cafe would be re-opened. And everything goes back to business as usual.
Content censoring is always there. But that's not the only reason they close down these net cafe. Money is the reason.
A sig is redundant.
China-philes...
The word actually is Sinophiles
Looks like the mods can't take an opinion that differs from the slashbot norm. So much for "free speech". Slashdot is about as free as China.
if they're fucking around on slashdot all week they're not performing to the best of their ability, are they? I agree that blocking people from slashdot is a bit extreme, you should just fire them when the logs say they're spending too much time there.
"You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
All your internet cafes are belong to us.
I think thats what you meant to say...
You know what you doing!
BTW, what do you think of the United States' actions in Guantanamo?
Very proper for an Empire. Every self Respecting empire is supposed to hold suspected enemies in concentration camps: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Concentration_camp
[nurb432] Its their country, their rules..
Let's take that idea to a logical conclusion:
There is nothing logical about your conclusion. If you actually read the whole first line of nurb432's post, you will see that it says
Its their country, their rules.. internet access is not a 'human right'..
nurb432 is correct: Internet access is not a human rights issue. I can't believe you actually think it is.
You then said
We can go back in history and include Cambodia, Nazi Germany,
Furthermore, I can't believe you tried to compare genocide/mass murder to the presence/lack of Internet access. Either you were trolling (and I took the bait - go me) or you really do believe what you said, in which case your ignorance is astounding. Here is a hint: no one dies from lack of Internet access.
I want to drag this out as long as possible. Bring me my protractor.
Well, if you know that almost 100% computers in these cafes are pirated software and teens are doing nothing all day but visiting porn sites and play games, you know China government is doing the right thing.
Don't prototype, not every move is political motivated.
quote "took us time as well to reach a state where we consider these freedoms as our rights; give 'em time!"
;-).
"You Americans" don't realize a lot of things about the rest of the world.
1) No, All the other nations in the world (yes, there are other nations besides the great American one) DO NOT want to become like you !
2) No, All the other nations in the world DO NOT consider America to be "the land of the free", instead we pity those few open-minded americans who are forced to live in such an opressive, freedom-lacking and propaghandistic enviroment.
3) No , this is not flame, it is an opinion. But I expect you to modify it.. being American and promoting freedom and all
-Someone from "the rest of the world"
Actually, that's the otherside of the coin: As a manager/boss, I need to make the best use of my employees. That means if someone has time to screw around on slashdot, I am not making the best use of my investment.
The trick is to find the balance; I want my employees to feel comfortable with where they work that they can take a break and goof around, but still get work done. Does wonders for moral, hence my employees are productive.
Mod me down with all of your hatred and your journey towards the dark side will be complete!
It's a good thing that China is cracking down on Internet Cafes. The last thing the Chinese government needs is for the RIAA and the MPAA to come down on them.
- Just my $0.02, take with a grain of salt, your mileage may vary.
Spam, porn, viruses, marketing, etc. And I can assure you that few children will go searching for MIT OpenCourseWare philosophy notes, Confician ethics, Maoist doctrine, etc. on their own. They will look for their favorite new music artists, information on the latest cartoon series, get on IM with their friends, or will just sit there and play flash games for the whole time.
Have you been in a high school computer lab? All kids do on the Internet is waste time and expose themselves to information that they are generally not morally equipped to interpret. When they need to do research for a school assignment, they will probably find that the restrictions will allow them to get the info they need fairly conveniently. So perhaps the totalitarian government is doing the children a service by keeping them focused.
On the other hand, I do not agree with the restrictions on adult consumption of the Internet. Clearly, at that point the government is perpetuating ignorence.
Also notice how loose the copyright philosophies are in China. IIRC piracy is allowed, even encouraged in there. We have the RIAA, the MPAA, the DMCA, and media corporations with the nearly full backing of the U.S. government. Perhaps one should consider whether the lawsuits going around would count as oppression/repression to a communist.
In my conutry, free speech ( the book )is a guaranteed right. So it would be a problem here.
It is not a right in China.. Pretty simple difference.
As long as basic human rights are not being abused, then its none of anyone elses business.
---- Booth was a patriot ----
I think we all need to step back and take a look at this. First, think of how many cheap products, toys, etc.. are all made in China. They need people to work in the factories to make them. If people start looking around this "internet" it might give them thoughts. Now, how are they supposed to focus on doing their work when they have all this "free thinking"? It's common sense people.
No, I wasn't defending the Chinese 'government'. I only was defending its actions in this particular case.
if they run around cutting peoples hands off for fun, that's wrong. And the international community has an obligation to do something about it.
that they aren't allowed to surf porn? No, that does not warrant any outside action.
As far as hatred towards America: If they dont like us.. to damned bad, i could care less, i dont like them either. DONT put me in that same class of people. The ones that are guilty for what we have here and have to apologize. They make me ill.
---- Booth was a patriot ----
Right, because we know *everyone* who gets a record contract gets rich beyond their wildest dreams. *rolls eyes*
Let's hope they pay us our social security when we get old.
Their censorship technology is the best in the world, and it would improve production if it was implemented in USA companies. How would it improve production you ask? It will, for example, keep people from reading Slashdot all day.
There is a psychological phenomenon in humans that control-freaks consistenly forget. Anything that you deny to a human appears more desirable to that human. If you say, "You can't do that," then the person being addressed will tend to want to do it *more*, not *less*.
For example, two children are playing. They may be playing in an ocean of toys, but the most attactive toy in the room to Child A will be the toy that Child B is playing with.
For example, the USA has some of the most repressive laws against drug use in the world, yet the USA is also the world's largest consumer of these "forbidden" drugs.
Also consider that "rooting for the underdog" and "fighting against the man" is seen as cool and hip in American culture. The "rebel" and "outlaw" are seen as positive, not negative, figures in American culture. Didn't all us Americans feel some righteous indignation when the Imperial officer seethes, "You rebel scum!" to Han Solo?
I don't make the rules. I just make fun of them.
In communist China you have to ask permission for your basic rights... (and have them refused of course...)
In capitalist US you have to pay for your rights... (again and again and again...)
Yam, yam, uga booga, yam, yam, yade, yade, uga booga, yam, yam, yade, yade
... namely, how to have sexual intercourse? According to TFA, most websites that are blocked contain pornography. Other "strict" rules have to do with protecting the children (akin to town ordinances carried out on a national level) and fire safety. Please do a bit research before you post comments like that. Punk.
"...the main difference between countries as China and other more "civilized"...."
I think China is one of the oldest civilizations on Earth. Anyway 5000+ years of Chinese civilization is much more than 200+ years of the US. I doubt that young civilizations are more civilized than old civilizations.
I've heard the Chinese claim that their civilization is the oldest on Earth, which is however false. Summerian and Egiptian civilizations are older. Summer is dead but the Coptic Christian civilization in Egipt, follows the Egiptian ways desipte of 1400 years of Arabic occupation.(Christians in Irak claim to be the offspring of the ancient Assirians, but Assiria is (slightly) younger than China)
Chinese and Coptic people have had over 5000 years to become civilized, while the Americans have had only 200 years.
BTW I am neither Chinese, Assirian, Coptic or American.
sczimme: "Here is a hint: no one dies from lack of Internet access."
And yet...its a slippery slope. Hate to drop that cold war buzzphrase.
They hassle net cafes in China. Here ("USA!"tm) the Friendly Brothers of Inquiry can get a list of the books you check out from a library. Because you MIGHT be up to something...
Soviets used to hand-make books and burn copies of copies of copies of audiotapes to pass dissident information or --- music --- to one another.
I understand the non-equivalence of passing copies of Pasternak and getting the new episode of Galactica.
Domination of the flow of information is the key to political power. I know I'm ripping someone off and subconsciously paraphrasing that --- but who?
Or at least that's what my telescreen told me. I hate that traitor Goldstein!
AMERICA HAS ALWAYS BEEN AT WAR WITH IRAN.
Our bars card people and don't let children in (generally) so internet access is not a problem.
Too bad your government is that stupid, mr. troll.
The Chinese government has enough power to shut down internet cafes but yet they still can't keep their population size in check....go figure.
Wal-mart is the #1 retailer in the US. We love paying low, low prices for cheap, cheap labor. I laugh whenever I see "WWJD" and "Praise the Lord!" on the vehicles parked outside of a Wal-mart, where 95% of the goods are from an Atheist, communist country. If you really believe what you say, then start boycotting Chinese products. You'll soon find your consumerist life empty because you can't get any electronics product, period.
We foam at Bush because we know the only difference between China and the US is the ACLU, and that Oceana would be Christian, and Eastasia would be Atheist. Bush has already said that a dictatorship would be much easier. I have no doubt that if he felt he could lead a successful coup d'etat, he would. He believes God wants him to be President, and he is so delusional that he sees a 51% majority as a "mandate from the people."
What's the difference between Che Guevara and a hugely successful CIA guerilla that we all sponsor with our tax dollars? The color of their skin and their country of origin. Worship one, you're a patriot; worship the other, and you're a traitor.
For over 5000 thousand Chinese lived in a civilized, strictly regulated society, where following the rules is everything. Unruly behavior has always been severely punished. This is civilization!
By comparison, only 140-150 years ago, in the 'Wild West', Americans were savages, people with guns did whatewer they wanted, law and order meant nothing. Not only that, but this savage behavior is glorified in Western movies as something great! Is this civilization?
... physics too much when you start thinking:
... ... ...
Mass closure of Net Cafes? Since when would China care about the mass fluxes going in and out of their cafes and making sure all that stays balanced? Are Net cafes there mass sinks or sources? I thought things like that should be naturally balanced, right?
Never mind.
-Jellisky
Now I can see why some might argue that you can't have internet access within 150 feet of where children congregate (I'm not saying it's logic, but I can see where the argument comes from).
But for some reason, I keep thinking there is a more insidious reason for this rule. The internet, by and large, is the ultimate expression of free speech and thought. It's the best place to get info of different ways of thinking. You wouldn't want to expose the mass populous to alternate ways of thinking until you've made sure that you've properly indoctrinated them.
Funny that, Cisco is one of the main contractors for their new police-handheld-read-all-your-email-PDA they've deployed... you could go ask them to hook you up too.
Between China's and GWB's actions, freedom and rights have taken major hits over the last 3 years.
Christian pastors are being tortured JUST for talking about Christianity? No offense, but I'd like to see some proof for this. Christianity is not one of those things that the CCP goes crazy over...
It seems like torturing Christian pastors would only be done if they were also major democratic reformists (which is pretty damn bad too); doing it just because of religion seems like an incredibly retarded PR move especially considering the way the US voted in 2004.
Can you give me a link/article?
Right, and what I'm saying, is that once the info's out there, and as long as it's got a important enough value to the people, it's likely to get to them one way or another.
I used to believe that.
Now I no longer do.
There is all kinds of information on the Bush administration that people, including those that served in his first administration, were desperate to get out to the American public, including specifics on his incompetence with respect to guarding against terror, the war on terror, the misinformation on Iraq, etc.
Yet we reelected him, and over half the people in the country believe Saddam Hussein was involved in the 9/11 attacks, despite proof to the contrary that hasn't only been bandied about on the internet, but has been reported in "mainstream" media news outlets as well.
The information may get out, but misinformation from "official" sources is clearly more potent in the perceptions of the mindless masses. The evidence of that is nowhere as clear (or discouraging) as here in America.
The Future of Human Evolution: Autonomy
"I guess hatred of America is so strong these days that the Slashbots feel compelled to defend every other government, even some of the most despotic and totalitarian."
Sorry to burst your bubble but many, many Europeans consider America to be a brutal country with inhuman punishment policies. The death penalty, Guantanomo Bay, and the arbitrary detainment of many of their citizens have seriously changed their views of America.
Thus, in the eyes of many of the world, while not as bad as Pol Pot/Cambodia, America is not a beacon of freedom.
You don't get to judge other countries without being judged yourself.
Good luck in trying that and not taking a good chunk of the world down at the same time. If people thought the Great Depression of the 20's-30's was bad, imagine how bad it would be now with the massively interconnected economies of the world.
Um. Common usage in Canada for the past few years has been "oiligarchy"--because it is a better pun, eh.
Damn those pesky terrorists
I am from Ukraine, and in November, when it was Orange Revolution here in Ukraine, I've read various people comments on bbc.com on that topic (our revolution). While most comments were positive, I remember one comment from china's women; she was very negative and said that people should better care about other things as food, money and such.
May be for china people it's acceptable that your goverment are gangsters and thiefs as long as they give you enouth food. For me, it isn't.
PS. Sorry for my bad English.
Furthermore, I can't believe you tried to compare genocide/mass murder to the presence/lack of Internet access. Either you were trolling (and I took the bait - go me) or you really do believe what you said, in which case your ignorance is astounding. Here is a hint: no one dies from lack of Internet access.
Do I have to spell it out for you? How many fucking Chinese citizens were killed by the Chinese government in Tiananmen Square while advocating for the non-human rights of freedom of expression?
Is that not close enough to "ethnic cleansing"/"genocide"/"mass killing" for you, skippy, or do you need something else? I haven't even brought up the "Great Leap Forward" or any of the other Maoist "innovations".
Keep going, though, you, like so many of your pals, believe that taking away all the small aspects of the big rights is just fine. Keep believing it, as your attitude is giving them all the encouragement they need to take them away.
I was in China not too long ago (2003 - beginning of 2004) and teaching English. One thing that was interesting was the stuff that I heard about Falun Gong. How supposedly people from Falun Gong had poisoned local beggars, it was a cult.
In the states, you never hear these rationales for the crackdowns against Falun Gong. They're not even brough up to be discredited, which makes me wonder if they're true or not?
More to the point, is the American gov't not explaining China's good reasons for cracking down on Falun Gong so that it keeps their citizens feeling superior to the Chineese? "Oh, we have religious freedom and they don't" etc. When the worst abuses against religion happened during the Cultural revolution, or currently against those religious groups with separatist ambitions (or who just don't want their land exploited by the influx of the ethnic Han majority) such as some Muslims in Xinjiang, Buddists in Tibet, etc.
A while ago, there was the whole issue of the Chinese embassy bombing in Belgrade by accident.
The Chinese line was that it was deliberate and pointless. The American line was that it was an accident. The London guardian at one point ran a piece on how the Chinese embassy had been quite likely rebroadcasting radio signals from Serb forces in violation of the laws governing embassies (neutrality) and how the bombing run that hit the embassy was the only one which didn't go through the NATO chain of command, but came directly from the CIA.
And how much did we in the states hear about this second, more likely explanation?
There were a few internet sites blocked in China. And it was hard to tell which ones were deliberate and which ones were accidental since there seemed to be very little set policy on the matter. China may censor, but it seems to lack the rigid efficiency and formality that one imagines when they think of the USSR or Nazi Germany. The place is anarchy and clannish with an authoritarian frosting. Things like the status and power of your family, and which powerful people you have pissed off and how respectfully you criticize power have a huge amount to do with what you can get away with.
The cultural revolution is over. The boys in power in China are mainly concerned with protecting their power and sometimes increasing it.
And despite the attempt at censorship, there was a lot of information about government corruption which managed to leak out anyways. (Chinese gov't billionaires, Political elite getting away with murder, etc. )
If there's one thing I learned in China, it was how deftly the US government manages to control the information which reaches the majority of its citizens, despite the existance of a 'free press.'
___
It's the end of my comment as I know it and I feel fine.
Must we continue the sore losing and cite small, questionable studies to try and back up our "facts". Your argument is old and since Nov 2, dead.
You are a troll, but still get modded up. Way to go all you 17 yr old moderators.
" Indeed; Communism is thoroughly dead in China."
Some aspects of it are.
"The current ruling gang apparently doesn't even give it lip service any more."
They give it A LOT of lip service. It's still in all of the major speeches during national holidays.
"Thus, Communism died in the old USSR when Stalin took power and became in all but name a new tsar."
That's news to Nikita Kruschev, who was essentially replaced by commitee. No one even knew who the "one guy" in charge was for a couple of years after his removal. Eventually, it was discovered that the Central Commitee picked Leonid Breznhev as the General Secretary. The party regained control after the death of Stalin, and stayed in control until Gorbachev. The attempted coup was BY the major powers of the party. So please don't pretend that communism never existed after Stalin. For all of the evil of that system, the party did pick leadership in an orderly fashion after that.
"...the old Communist/Capitalist false dichotomy."
If you REALLY think there's no difference between capitalism and Soviet style communism, then no rational words are going to sway you.
"...not by describing them with foreign words that don't apply very well."
When they stop calling themselves communists, then maybe we will too. Again, the Chinese leadership still embraces the Marxist/Maoist imagery and speech, voluntarily. No one from the West forced it on them, so please stop acting like we are doing just that. THEY (the governement) identify themselves as communist.
BTW, there ARE still true believers in power in China, many in the military. They don't like the trappings of a market economy, but they do like the money it brings in to pay for planes, tanks, missles, ships, and now, the space program.
Life is hard, and the world is cruel
For all the hype China is getting as a supposed new super-power to challenge the US, there is something more fundamental going on there. It didn't start in Tiananmen square, but it is continuing in the rice paddies and town squares.
People in China have developed a distrust for government. This isn't news, because it didn't happen overnight. In the past, government was a partner. The people would give them taxes, their young men, and endure some pretty harsh rules from time to time. In exchange, the government would maintain order, secure a decent living, and protect the people from wandering Mongol hordes. Occasionally the government would clean up corruption or crack down on gangs and networks.
This all started to change when Europe conquered China. No longer could the government protect the people! The people began to look for another way. At about the time of Chiang Kai-Shek, european style democracy was beginning to really take root. The people were beginning to prosper, and beginning to realize their power. They were getting a better picture of the true role of government, as a servant of the people, not as their master. Of course that awakening was interrupted by Mao and his hordes of communists. It would take a long time to begin reawaken the sleeping giant again.
Nowadays, there are no Mongol hordes. The biggest threat China faces is arguably the best thing that could ever happen to China. Why does the government want to put a wall between the US and China when the US can be an extremely valuable trade partner? And not just an economic trade partner, but an intellectual trade partner? The people are beginning to see that communism isn't the answer.
People in China have grown to understand that the cities in the US are paved with gold. Not literally, of course. But there is something that the US is doing that makes their 300 million strong much more wealthy, powerful, and intelligent than China's billions. They are getting a sense of what capitalism is all about. They are growing to appreciate the fundamental rights of man, thank to the beginning of a Christian uprising. They are seeing the weakness in the government, how they require the buy-in of the people or they can't govern.
I encourage you to talk with visiting scholars from China who are getting their graduate degrees in our universities. They understand the real problems China faces, the real struggles they are fighting. But they also have come to see what really makes America what it is. They are probably going to be a compassionate capitalist. Yes, people should work hard to make as much money as they can. But that money should be used to employ other people or for charity. It's the duty of the rich to care for the poor.
They see Japan, South Korea, Phillipines, and other countries, and wonder why, after 400 years of contact with Europe, hasn't China become like them. Yet Japan and South Korea are such small, weak countries in comparison historically. Why do they prosper so much? Why can South Korea boast a military that threatens even China?
I watched on TV as an older women openly challenged the town mayor, a strong party member. Her grievances were just - the government displaced her and made promises they didn't keep. The look on the officials face as the cameras taped the final confrontation was one of fear. He saw that that poor, uneducated woman was far more powerful than he ever could be, because she was right. She learned that when you are fighting for a just cause, even if it is in your own self-interest, you can win. The message is getting out. People are learning.
This internet-cafe closing thing will have absolutely zero negative effect on the progression of Chinese government to a true democracy. If anything, it will be more fuel to add towards true reform and freedom for the people.
The pundits who are left-leaning say "Watch out for China! They will do what Saddam and Stalin could not do!" That is just wishful thinking. These are probably the same people saying ter
The radical sect of Islam would either see you dead or "reverted" to Islam.
"Whoever modded this fucking bastard informative deserves a good sack. This guy is promoting opinions. There is no informative value in it."
His opinions are right. He SHOULD have gotten modded insightful instead....
Life is hard, and the world is cruel
The authoritories also dont want the kids to view p0rn or waste lots of time and money playing games and chatting.
In Orange County California InterNet cafes have been associated with Asian gang warfare with occasional violent incidents. They are a lucrative business run by Asians (mainly Vietnamese) that are expected to "give favors" to the gangs. Second, they a "clubhouse" for Asian teens to congregate and have fun. Parents think their kids are "being studious" when they go out o the computer clubhouse, but the kids have other ideas.
I guess we can see what side of the China story moderators on /. believe...
Does this mean that the US has a shot at reclaiming the international Starcraft top spot?
Yes, you're right, it is really a trivial matter. Oh wait... I forgot that there are over SEVEN-freaking-hundred of them. If a base in damn near every strategic location on the globe doesn't indicate a new kind of empire, then it's a meaningless word. Google for 'Chalmers Johnson' for a nice overview.
The USA has minor holdings in both major oceans, like the remnants of any colonial power. Here's the CIA's listing of American "Dependencies:"
In addition to these direct footprints of empire, the US has the ability to recommend, set, and enforce policy over much of the world. Even Brzezinski points out that "Europe is still predominantly an American protectorate."
The purposes of USA's military presence around the world are pretty clear to those on the outside. Imagine a German base on the edge of Bangor, a French base outside of Cleveland, a Canadian base in Fargo, a Japanese base in Seattle, a Venezuelan base in Miami. How would the locals feel? What would it mean to US nationalism? It isn't a disingenuous question. If you pooh-pooh the 'thought experiment' on grounds of impossibility, it is an indication of a disinclination to think outside of the doctrine of Pax Americana.
Damn those pesky terrorists
I just returned from the supposedly closed China, and have much to say that contradicts the article. Most of the article plays on the ignorance of Westerners.
The internet cafes were cheap (around $1 for 4-8 hours) and usually a bit dirty. I was blocked from no site except the San Jose Mercury News, and the site was back online in China the next time I checked. It was not the "Great Fire Wall of China" in action. There have got to be more than 100,000 internet cafes. They're on many, many street corners. Some are built with sleeping quarters attached. Maybe there are 100,000 registered internet cafes, but who really registers anything in China?
I am sure many who live in English speaking countries read these things imagine laws might be followed and enfoced like they are in the UK and US. Strict laws require some enforcement. From what I saw and heard and contrary to what I read from the Chinese press, there was hardly a hint of control over the millions of teenagers online.
If Chinese people are kept in the dark, it seems only to be about their own country (about SARS, e.g.). They often know many details about the U.S., including sports scores, movies and news.
I for one may feel some benefit of these closures.
If I showed you my plonk list, you would notice the abundance of Chineese netcafes on the list. I won't miss the attacks on my server and now perhaps I can reduce the number of subnets I have blocked.
Self centered, self interest... yep, you bet.
hmm...maybe shutting down China is a better strategy?
Its later than you think.....your watch has stopped.......
"Propaganda works. And you, I and the Chinese get tricked every day..."
I hear this argument a lot from the paranoid Left and the militant right alike. However, as usual, the honest truth is somewhere in the middle. The truth is, the U.S. may be the best informed nation on the planet. That doesn't mean that her inhabitants will respond to it in kind however.
Contrast this with China, or especially N. Korea where the media is tightly controlled by thugs. Where merely thinking aloud can get you put into a re-education camp and you have to admit that we in the West are in a very different situation indeed.
"...Well, there's egg and bacon; egg sausage and bacon; egg and spam; egg bacon and spam; egg bacon sausage and spam..."
Information wants to be free. People want to ignore information they don't like. People win.
Changa hates change.
Despite what has become a common belief in our western countries, life without computers and the Internet is possible. :)
The only thing I have to say is: When's the US invasion? If it's good enough for Iraq, then it's good enough for China.
There is still no empire though, the US holds something like 14 territories whereas Britain and France hole 15 and 16 respectively and that is the real tail end of Britains Empire building.
Whilst military bases might provide the US with a global military reach they don't generate any direct income or economic benefit which is the real point of Empires.
These bases are also based on the countries they are hosted in tolerating their existence which is fine in peacetime but likely to be reversed fairly quickly in anything like a major conflict, at least in the areas where it would matter.
um..."we" may hate what the Chinese government are doing to their population, but I don't think we "all" do. And furthermore, do you think the Chinese people hate the Chinese government for this? The Chinese are hardly ALL unhappy about their government. I think a large percentage are quite content (ok, only those who are in developing areas and see great opportunities, maybe). Stop assuming that what you don't like about what the Chinese government is or isn't doing is the same as what the Chinese people feel about their own government.
If they can get what they need to get done, and have some time to look at slashdot, then what's the problem? The alternative would be to keep piling more and more work on them, no matter how fast they get it done. In that case, what incentive is there for them to work hard at all?
That every real-world example of communism implemented "wasn't really communism". Today's communists are desperate to disassociate themselves from every large-scale attempt of implementation because every attempt has been disastrous.
It's the "No True Scotsman" fallacy in action.
Keep fighting your ideological battles with mod points instead of words and see how many people you really convince, lamers.
While I agree with you in this case, the Republican response would be:
Democratic Morality: Killing a murderer, evil. Killing an unborn child, good.
All depends on how you look at it.
....why exactly it is that China has most favored nation status?
Stuff like this fills me with intense rage. When any government attempts to control the free flow of information and ideas, it is as clear a sign of that government's illegitimacy as the overt use of force against its own people. The chinese government is a cleptocracy, a cabal of criminals who use their position to oppress and abuse the chinese people. If I had my way, they would all be put on trial and the guilty ones shot, preferably in public.
This is nothing but further proof that they have not changed their ways since the Tiananmen Square massacre 16 years ago.
Lee
Muslim community leaders warn of backlash from tomorrow morning's terrorist attack.
"That's kinda like in Indiana how there is a law that says you can't sell alcohol within 150 feet of a church."
And in other news the moneychangers were kicked out of the temple.
If Kerry/Edwards concedes, it doesn't mean that Bush/Cheney/Satan automatically wins. No contender could get the majority.
Look, you obviously didn't follow the links in my post. The whole notion of 'empire' is being redefined. Some call it the New World Order, including Poppy and W.
There are radical differences in the way hegemony is managed between the Romans, lets say, and the post-colonial period that we're now in; those kinds of empires can't exist now, for a whole range of reasons. Essentially, the New American Century is already here.
Whilst military bases might provide the US with a global military reach they don't generate any direct income or economic benefit which is the real point of Empires.
The relationship between big-ticket trading, industries, etc. and those who run the --empire, forgive me-- is so complex and profuse and obscured by sleight of press that it's understandable how people miss seeing a 'direct benefit.' Anyway, I guess you don't live in the commonwealth, or you'd know that that empire always worked hand in hand with business. In Canada we had the Hudson's Bay Company. I guess that makes it Haliburton in Iraq.
Damn those pesky terrorists
The most direct translation from pinyin (wang1 ba2) of a public house providing net access is called a "net"() bar()".
What chinese people do there in "net cafes"?
99% of them play games! Yes, from half-life to online games (You can't believe how those online games sucks here in China, I'd never put my fingers on 'em.)
For what I know, the net cafes that the government forced to close is bearly 10% of the total numbers of net cafes in China. That's really a small amount of them.
So, if you got angry for some communist government once again block there people from so called freedom and democracy and so on, I hope the information I provided can help you a better sleep tonight.
As you've already guessed that I'm from China and right now sit in front of my own computer posting on Slashdot with adsl connection for about 10$ per month (really can't complain much about the low bandwidth).
Oh yes, A long list of sites are blocked. But, hey, isn't the duty of every government to control their people? They are the governments, they are the same. The government controlled the media? WE THE NEW GENERATION DON'T READ NEWS!
I surf the internet almost everyday. There are millions of teenager and young students like me in China doing the samething. We do have freedom, limited through. But there should be a process, shouldn't it?
Don't like the Chinese government? I can't help and sometimes I'm pissed off by it either. But please, you kindly western people, please try to understand China a little bit more before make any
judgements. There are truth about us that you should know, and I'm willing to share too.
PS: Please excuse me for any gramma or spelling mistake.
It's very entertaining to read /. comments on China. These Internet cafes are shutdown to plow the way for bigger, better and nicer franchised Internet cafe chains bankrolled by IBM and Intel!.
For example, no net café is allowed to open within 200 metres of a middle or elementary school.
Way to get rid of the kiddies!