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Magnetic Stripe Snooping at Home

pbrinich writes "Have you ever wondered what information is actually stored on all those cards you have in your wallet? Well, it turns out you can find out yourself! An excellent project, Stripe Snoop started by Billy Hoffman, a Georgia Tech computer science student, contains schematics, source code and a wide variety of information about the standards used to store all sorts of information on your magnetic cards."

397 comments

  1. to sum up a lot of comments... by niteice · · Score: 5, Funny

    *puts on tinfoil hat*

    --
    ROMANES EUNT DOMUS
    1. Re:to sum up a lot of comments... by Living+WTF · · Score: 5, Funny

      You have a magnetic stripe on your head?

      --
      I don't suffer from insanity, I enjoy every minute of it.
    2. Re:to sum up a lot of comments... by Doc+Ruby · · Score: 1

      That tinfoil hat isn't really effective until you flip down the blinders.

      --

      --
      make install -not war

    3. Re:to sum up a lot of comments... by InvalidError · · Score: 1

      Where I live, what people commonly call "tin foil" is actually aluminum and would be completely useless for blocking magnetic stripes.

    4. Re:to sum up a lot of comments... by madaxe42 · · Score: 2, Funny

      I can't imagine putting his head through a card reader is terribly comfortable.

      KER-CHUNK-click.

      'Have a nice day sir!'

    5. Re:to sum up a lot of comments... by value_added · · Score: 3, Funny
      Not enough.

      You need this as well.

    6. Re:to sum up a lot of comments... by smittyoneeach · · Score: 1

      Because your name isn't Zippy.

      --
      Get thee glass eyes, and, like a scurvy politician, seem to see things thou dost not.--King Lear
    7. Re:to sum up a lot of comments... by notque · · Score: 1

      There's information in the first publication of Made on how to do this at home.

      Don't know if it's the same guy, as I just glanced through the section so far.

      --
      http://use.perl.org
    8. Re:to sum up a lot of comments... by museumpeace · · Score: 1

      I think you mean MAKE , a magzine published by O'Reilly...you heard about it first on /. actually looks like they tried the projects described; plenty of pictures too.

      --
      SLASHDOT: news for people who can't concentrate on work or have no life at all and got tired of yelling back at the TV.
    9. Re:to sum up a lot of comments... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If Zippy drives my CD-ROM, don't talk to my old grey foot!

    10. Re:to sum up a lot of comments... by Xorkid · · Score: 1

      No, the stripes are INSIDE his head, Duh.

      --
      www.microsoft.com/athome/sec urity/children/kidtalk.mspx Was This Information Useful?
    11. Re:to sum up a lot of comments... by canavan · · Score: 1

      If that were the case, he'd better make a hat out of Mu-metal, because otherwise it won't be too efficient for shielding against magnetic fields.

    12. Re:to sum up a lot of comments... by notque · · Score: 1

      Yup, that is what I meant. :)

      --
      http://use.perl.org
    13. Re:to sum up a lot of comments... by niteice · · Score: 1

      Actually, I probably should have worded that *puts tinfoil hat on credit cards (even though i'm 14 and technically can't have any)*

      --
      ROMANES EUNT DOMUS
  2. Hurray ! by Digital+Warfare · · Score: 0

    Perhaps I'll create a handheld device and carry it with me when I'm on the pull
    "So, your name is Claire Smith, you live at
    Her: wtf !?!

    --
    "Sweet llamas of the Bahamas !"
    1. Re:Hurray ! by TrippTDF · · Score: 4, Funny

      I did something like this once. Back in 2001 I worked at a company that had Internet Kiosks across Manhattan. I went to a cafe to upgrade a machine. There was a certain attractive young lady on the terminal when I got there. I called my manager (who was a friend) and told him it would be a few minutes before I could get on, and mentioned the cute girl.

      He did a query of the database to get her name from the credit card she swiped. As she was getting up I said "have a good day, Jen". Scared the CRAP out of her until I explained how I did it. We are now married and have three lovely children

      Ok, that last part isn't true.

    2. Re:Hurray ! by Nijika · · Score: 4, Funny
      Scared the CRAP out of her until I explained how I did it.

      Where can I find a copy of your new book; How to collect restraining orders.

      --
      Luck favors the prepared, darling.
    3. Re:Hurray ! by TrippTDF · · Score: 2, Funny

      I'm still looking for a publisher, actually. All the ones that I took it to originally have taken out restraining orders against me.

      134 and counting, baby!

    4. Re:Hurray ! by R2.0 · · Score: 5, Funny

      "Ok, that last part isn't true"

      What, your children are ugly? Such honesty is refreshing.

      --
      "As God is my witness, I thought turkeys could fly." A. Carlson
    5. Re:Hurray ! by Digital+Warfare · · Score: 0

      Quality :D Its quite tempting to try out the app, but I think its illegal to get these readers in the UK ? Where's Maplin !!?...

      --
      "Sweet llamas of the Bahamas !"
    6. Re:Hurray ! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Wow, you are one sick bastard.

    7. Re:Hurray ! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0


      www.lulu.com

    8. Re:Hurray ! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
      well, that was retarded. That was supposed to be this:
      <jokedestroyer>
      http://www.lulu.com/
      </jokedestroyer>
      Since when is "Plain Old Text" not plain old text?
    9. Re:Hurray ! by clarkcox3 · · Score: 1

      If it's illegal to get magstripe readers in the UK, then how could any shops there accept credit cards?

      --
      There are no tiger attacks in my area and it's all because this rock I'm holding keeps the tigers away.
    10. Re:Hurray ! by cayenne8 · · Score: 1
      " Perhaps I'll create a handheld device and carry it with me when I'm on the pull "

      Just curious...what does it mean to be "on the pull"? Never head that expression before...

      --
      Light travels faster than sound. This is why some people appear bright until you hear them speak.........
    11. Re:Hurray ! by igorthefiend · · Score: 1

      "on the pull" is a UK expression for going out looking for a mate, although that definition really fails to encompass the alcohol, looking stupid and indeed, likely failure of the endeavour.

  3. Lovely... by TripMaster+Monkey · · Score: 0, Troll

    Now we can look forward to another explosion of credit card and identity theft...

    --
    ____

    ~ |rip/\/\aster /\/\onkey

    1. Re:Lovely... by Corporate+Drone · · Score: 2, Interesting
      [shrug]... security through obscurity is oh-so-effective, ain't it?

      wouldn't it be interesting if this were to cause a groundswell of support for the recently proposed RFID credit cards? ack...

      --
      mmm... yeah... You see, we're putting the cover sheets on all TPS reports now before they go out...
    2. Re:Lovely... by FidelCatsro · · Score: 1

      Your probably quite safe aslong as you dont give your credit card to anyone packing a laptop ,a card scanner and a bag with swag written on it. Seriously how is this any less secure than handing it over to some random cashier with an offical scanner (one of the major CreditCard fraud vectors)

      --
      The only things certain in war are Propaganda and Death. You can never be sure which is which though
    3. Re:Lovely... by swillden · · Score: 5, Informative

      wouldn't it be interesting if this were to cause a groundswell of support for the recently proposed RFID credit cards?

      First, they're not RFID cards, they're contactless smart cards, which are a very different. Different frequency, different range, different capabilities, different protocols, and very different security.

      Second, smart card credit cards are a good thing, and you as a credit card user should want them because they'll reduce fraud. Granted, the banks and merchants mostly bear the brunt of the fraud, not the cardholder, but since all of the money ultimately comes from our pockets that's a distinction without a difference.

      Finally, your implied notion ("ack") that contactless smart cards are a bad thing for cardholders shows that you don't know anything about them. A fully-implemented EMV card:

      1. Won't divulge any data other than a public key until after your PIN has been presented to it in a secure (mutually-authenticated and encrypted) session.
      2. Allows transactions to be conducted off-line, making your checkout quicker for low-value transactions.
      3. Can make decisions about whether or not transactions should require a real-time connection back to your bank to verify the account status. This counters the increased fraud opportunity provided by the greater convenience of fast transactions.
      4. Provides very strong authentication to the transaction, making it nearly impossible for a thief to perform a "card-present" transaction without actually obtaining your card (and PIN). "Skimming" is the #1 type of credit card fraud, and these cards eliminate it.
      5. With card readers built into PCs, offers a mechanism for doing "card present" on-line transactions. This will reduce the card fees paid by on-line merchants, which will (after a delay, probably) reduce your costs as well. Oh, and you can also use an EMV card to make logging into your bank's web site easier and more secure.
      6. With an additional calculator-like device (or a PC and reader), offers a mechanism for doing secure over-the-phone transactions as well. Maybe in the future the cards will have a display and PIN pad integrated right into the card, eliminating the need for the extra device.
      7. Offers credit card issuers to provide "value added" services on the chip. It's not clear how valuable this is; at present they're talking about things like storing your bookmarks on the card, so that you can carry them with you. It's possible that other, more useful, ideas will arise.

      The security in these cards is very well thought-out and banks have zero interest in intruding on your privacy, because it would piss you off. If you don't believe they're careful with your privacy, consider the fact that they already know about every purchase you make with any credit card -- how often do you get marketers calling you because they got information from your bank about a recent purchase you made on your credit card?

      If you don't care to believe me about how the security is designed, please review it for yourself. Complete EMV specifications are published on the EMV web site at http://www.emvco.com.

      I'm a security expert of sorts -- and fairly paranoid by nature -- and the main concerns I have with this technology will arise if the US banks decide not to fully implement the technology.

      1. They may decide that cardholders like signature authorization and don't want PINs. That would mean the card would have to be willing to communicate with anyone and it would become possible for handheld readers to collect card numbers in a crowd. Personally, I would love to use a PIN rather than signing. Signing is slow, and inherently must be done at the end of the process, meaning it can't be parallelized. With chip and PIN, I can insert my card and enter my PIN while the cashier is still scanning my items. As soon as (s)he's done, the transaction can be executed, which takes <2 seconds, including printing th
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    4. Re:Lovely... by fubar1971 · · Score: 1

      Not to mention, why would a thief even bother. Let's see, I am a CC thief. I need to buy a computer, the card swipe reader, solder the joystick adapter to the reader, and install the software. That seems like an awfull lot of work to steal the information off of a card that I already have stolen.

      If I stole the card, I can use it, without having to know the information on it. Not to mention, any good Social Engineer can obtain the personal information of anyone, including credit card number and the personal information encoded on the stripe.

      There are so many easier ways to obtain that information.

    5. Re:Lovely... by EnglishDude · · Score: 1

      Hmmm to 1) - in the UK we are having chip n PIN now - where we have to enter a PIN instead of a signature, but I can't enter PIN until right at the end of the packaging and when the cashier has calcuated how much it would cost. *shrugs*.

    6. Re:Lovely... by swillden · · Score: 1

      Hmm. That's a security-related tradeoff, actually, and I hadn't realized that the UK systems had gone that direction. By not entering the PIN until the total has been presented, the PIN becomes a cardholder approval of the transaction amount, in addition to cardholder authorization for the transaction to occur. That's better from a security standpoint (makes it harder for certain types of merchant-initiated fraud), but is less convenient and slower. Still faster than signature, once cardholders are used to it, but slower than it could be.

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    7. Re:Lovely... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Informative

      This is purely software writer's choice. We do write POS software and we wait until the total button is pressed. Makes a lot of sense, you don't want the customer do any authorisation before he/she is informed how much they are going to pay.

    8. Re:Lovely... by swillden · · Score: 1

      This is purely software writer's choice.

      Perhaps. It's reasonable to think that some merchant acquirers may want to specify that PIN entry must be done after totalling. Some EMV docs discuss the tradeoff.

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    9. Re:Lovely... by tengwar · · Score: 1

      Ok, interesting, but what is the advantage to making the cards wireless? All of the good stuff you mention is to do with smartcards, not the wireless side.

    10. Re:Lovely... by swillden · · Score: 1

      Ok, interesting, but what is the advantage to making the cards wireless? All of the good stuff you mention is to do with smartcards, not the wireless side.

      Hehe. That's a very good question, actually, and the answer, as best as I can figure it out, is a really weak one.

      The answer is: Because the US banks tried contact cards and they "didn't take off" (except as a gimmick that only worked really well for AMEX Blue). Now, the *reason* they didn't take off is because the banks didn't invest enough and didn't push the infrastructure deployment hard enough. Merchants saw no reason to pay for the card acceptance devices, so cardholders had no place to use the cards, so cardholders saw no value in them (no matter how much slashdotters like to think so, the "average Joe" is not stupid -- disinterested, maybe, but not stupid).

      Banks are thinking now that the sexier contactless technology will get consumers interested. They're wrong, but they're so wrong, they're right. What's actually happening is that consumers are nervous about contactless tech, and the banks are fighting that by pushing harder -- including pushing the infrastructure needed to make the whole thing really work.

      Note that the people working at the big banks aren't stupid enough to actually buy the arguments I just presented, either. But "institutional" thinking often follows odd lines that none of the individual people could believe, as long as all of the individuals have their own reasons for thinking the thing really will work.

      And I think it will. Cardholders will see that their security/privacy fears are groundless (and they are), that chip-based payment is fast and convenient, and they'll like it.

      And, actually, there are some other benefits to contactless that will come later. Once contactless readers are widely deployed, you can lose the card form factor. Credit "cards" can become key fobs, be embedded in cellphones, PDAs, cuff links, pens -- you name it. Anything large enough to hold an antenna, really, since the chip is tiny (actually, cuff links wouldn't work unless they connected to an antenna in the cuff/sleeve).

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  4. POS by BrianHursey · · Score: 2, Interesting

    This would be intresting to use for some open source point of sale systems... *Project ideas flying through head*

    --
    Linux is like a teepee. It has no windows, no gates, and there's an Apache inside.
    1. Re:POS by dhbiker · · Score: 2, Interesting

      A nice idea but isn't magnetic stripe rapidly becoming obsolete (and being replaced by Chip and Pin)

    2. Re:POS by BrianHursey · · Score: 0

      Your rite, but the majority of credit and debit systems still use the magnetic system. Also, even if some systems use chip or pin they most likely will still have some sort of magnetic strip for backwards complacency for the next few years..

      --
      Linux is like a teepee. It has no windows, no gates, and there's an Apache inside.
    3. Re:POS by ch-chuck · · Score: 1

      What'd be really cool is using a FOSS POS system to sell software.

      --
      try { do() || do_not(); } catch (JediException err) { yoda(err); }
    4. Re:POS by EnglishSteve · · Score: 1

      Retailers are *requiring* Chip and Pin support from all vendors these days (particularly in Europe), since the credit card companies (and governments) are making it so that the CC company is only responsible for fraud prevention when C&P is used on a transaction - if the mag stripe is used, the RETAILER bears all fraud risk.

      It will soon become very difficult to sell a POS system that only supports mag stripe reading for credit cards.

    5. Re:POS by fubar1971 · · Score: 1

      What would be even cooler as a FOSS authentication project that will let you connect a magstripe reader to your PC, so that you can swipe your card for online purchases.

    6. Re:POS by Phiu-x · · Score: 1

      As opposed to what? Typing your card number?

      --
      This is a stolen sig.
    7. Re:POS by cayenne8 · · Score: 1
      " A nice idea but isn't magnetic stripe rapidly becoming obsolete (and being replaced by Chip and Pin)"

      Apparently it is becoming popular in Europe, but, aside from the Amex blue card...I've never seen one over here in the US. None of my cards have a chip that I know of.

      I'm really not looking forward to it either....that'll mean what...ANOTHER 5-6 pin numbers I've got to memorize? Geez, between the online payment places making me change passwords every 30-60 days...the passwords on computers and home and at work...ATM card pins...shit, I'll never remember them all.

      --
      Light travels faster than sound. This is why some people appear bright until you hear them speak.........
    8. Re:POS by ElectricInkPen · · Score: 1

      I believe Hoffman's interest in this project originally started because of Georgia Tech's use of BlackBoard's magnetic card system for our student ID's. The "BuzzCards" can be used around campus for vending, and general purpose ID (in several forms...9 digit printed ID, magnetic stripe, photo). There was a lot of controversy when an article he wrote was published in 2600 under the handle "Acidus." The article told about the system's shortcomings and explained how easy it would be to middle-man one of the vending machines for free stuff. This eventually ended in a gag order, if I remember correctly.

      --
      Jaron _ at _ ElectricInkPen.com Penning the Web Electric
    9. Re:POS by MemoryAid · · Score: 1

      I thought I knew all about auto fuel pay-at-the-pump purchases until I went to Europe, and found my credit card was not compatible. What was supposed to save me from having to speak pidgin French turned into a great opportunity to experience difficulty understanding a native speaker.

      --
      Language students: Don't try to learn English here. This ain't it.
    10. Re:POS by racermd · · Score: 1

      It may have been mentioned elsewhere below (frankly, I just don't feel like checking), but there's still one other thing to consider:

      The information in the mag-stripe (or any other data-container) may only be an ID that links to a vast database of information that wouldn't normally be accessible unless the scanner is ultimately connected to that system.

      There's no reason why this can't be done, and is both encouraging and discouraging all at once.

      Up front, there's no way to get any information other than the GUID itself - you lose your card, you only lose your GUID. Nothing more. Replace the card with a new one (new GUID) and unlink the old GUID to make it useless.

      However, with the data being on a remote system controlled by people that don't neccessarily want to share that data (even with the person it's associated with), there's a major privacy concern.

      --
      My sources are unreliable, but their information is fascinating. -- Ashleigh Brilliant
  5. Gives new meaning... by Reignking · · Score: 5, Funny

    Gives new meaning to the Capital One tagline "What's in your wallet?"

    --
    One man's Funny is another man's Offtopic.
    1. Re:Gives new meaning... by donnyspi · · Score: 0

      NO.

    2. Re:Gives new meaning... by tomstdenis · · Score: 1

      "What's in your wallet?"

      Not a Capital One credit card? ;-)

      Tom

      --
      Someday, I'll have a real sig.
    3. Re:Gives new meaning... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      And once they start using RFID in the things, then I'll be able to look in your wallet myself and SEE

  6. could be worrying by dhbiker · · Score: 0

    to find out that your pin is stored in plain text on the magnetic stripe :-|

    1. Re:could be worrying by REBloomfield · · Score: 2, Informative

      except it isn't............

    2. Re:could be worrying by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Informative

      Your pin is not stored on the card at all. If you have two cards for one account, and go to an ATM with one, switch your pin, the other will have been switched also without being put in a machine. The pin is connected to an account, not a particular card.

    3. Re:could be worrying by krumms · · Score: 1

      better you than somebody else :P

    4. Re:could be worrying by Skye16 · · Score: 2, Interesting

      That's why, when you go to an ATM and put your pin in, you could put the wrong in one and it isn't going to tell you until you actually make the withdrawal/deposit. It has to connect to whatever-the-hell-it-connects-to and send it the pin info account info and the request and if the pin is invalid, then it spits out your card and tells you you messed up.

      I wonder if the information sent to whatever-the-hell-it-is is encrypted... :O

    5. Re:could be worrying by dknj · · Score: 2, Informative

      I wonder if the information sent to whatever-the-hell-it-is is encrypted...

      Yes. Even those standalone-shady-looking ATM's that dialup an 800 number and connect at 1200baud will have encrypted transmissions.

    6. Re:could be worrying by eison · · Score: 3, Informative

      PINs aren't stored in the stripe. Not plaintext, not encrypted, not at all.

      --
      is competition good, or is duplication of effort bad?
    7. Re:could be worrying by nkh · · Score: 4, Funny

      It has to connect to whatever-the-hell-it-connects-to

      It's called a computer. I know, I'm using one right now and in a few years, they'll be everywhere and you'll buy one to play games!

    8. Re:could be worrying by 'nother+poster · · Score: 5, Informative

      Last I checked, my PINs are by card. My PIN and my wifes PIN are different, but access the same accounts. At least for my financial institution, the pin is stored on the card, but in tripple DES encryption. When I perform a transaction, the pin I enter, and the encrypted PIN are both sent to my bank, which encrypts the PIN I enter with thier key, and compares them. No matchee, no money. When I changed my PIN a few years back, they punched my account data into a terminal, I put in the pin I wanted, and then swipped the card. When I walked back to the loby, my card worked with the new PIN, no problem.

    9. Re:could be worrying by plover · · Score: 5, Informative
      Your PIN is never stored on your card, and hasn't been since the early 1980s. Not even in an encrypted format.

      When you key your PIN, the PIN pad accepting it will encrypt the PIN along with other transactional information plus its own serial number using a key injected securely by a representative of the issuing bank.

      This blob plus the other data is transmitted to an authorizer, where the account is looked up and a local copy of the blob is created. If it matches the incoming blob, it's a go.

      The bank almost certainly did not encode your card in the scenario you described above. Encoding is usually done with a machine-fed stripe writer, and is almost never done by hand-swiping the stripe anymore. (The timing is usually better on machine fed devices.) What the bank most likely did was to generate a blob similar to the one I described above for transmission to their authorizing computer, who immediately stored it and activated it for use.

      Yes, the original intent of mag stripes was to enable offline transactions. However, bad guys quickly figured out how to read stripes and forge PINs, so everyone went to strictly on-line authorizing in the early 1980s.

      --
      John
    10. Re:could be worrying by darthnoodles · · Score: 1

      The PIN you enter is encrypted before it leaves the number pad. Read this: http://www.theregister.co.uk/2004/07/21/atm_keypad _security/

    11. Re:could be worrying by eison · · Score: 3, Informative

      Nope.
      Card formats are in the original article. No PIN in the stripes. http://stripesnoop.sourceforge.net/devel/layoutstd .pdf
      (CVV/CVC are not your PIN, they are an additional security check. They are also different from CVV2/CVC2, which is printed on the card but not in the stripe.)

      There is indeed encryption used - but it's not on the card. When you perform a transaction, *the pin you manually enter* is encrypted (with a public key tied to the merchant or particular signature capture device transaction, depending on technology used) and sent to the processor. This is decrypted and compared to what the processor has on file for you. Nothing related to the PIN on the card itself, it's solely based on what you keyed in.

      --
      is competition good, or is duplication of effort bad?
    12. Re:could be worrying by swillden · · Score: 4, Informative

      so everyone went to strictly on-line authorizing in the early 1980s.

      Everyone in the US did, anyway. Much of the rest of the world still does off-line transactions with magstripe. That's a big part of the reason why chip cards are being deployed so much more aggressively outside of the US, because they don't want to do on-line authentication (due to higher communications costs), and allowing off-line transactions with magstripe is just asking for high fraud rates.

      In France, for example, a few years ago fraud was insanely high. Since they've gone to chip cards skimming fraud has dropped to zero and overall credit card fraud is miniscule.

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    13. Re:could be worrying by jrumney · · Score: 1
      Nothing related to the PIN on the card itself, it's solely based on what you keyed in.

      Maybe it varies with banks or countries, but the cards that I've dealt with have PIN offsets encoded on them.

    14. Re:could be worrying by cplusplus · · Score: 1

      How come I don't believe you? I go to a local movie theatre quite often and their computer actually displays the entire contents of the stripe right on the screen (which I really don't like) after they swipe the card. I have seen my pin number in the sequence of digits before. Maybe it's just a coincidence, but my wife's pin number shows up in her debit card's sequence as well.

      --
      "False hope is why we'll never run out of natural resources!" - Lewis Black
    15. Re:could be worrying by Phreakiture · · Score: 1

      I wonder if the information sent to whatever-the-hell-it-is is encrypted...

      Yes, it is. I used to work for a company that wrote ATM server software. In order to handle encryption securely (as there would otherwise be no point), we used a device caled an HSM (Host Security Module) that connected to the server via an RS-232 port (though that may have advanced since-- it's been 8 years). The HSM would be given the encrypted data and the anticipated answer, and the HSM would send back a simple 'yes' or 'no' type answer.

      This allowed everything to be encrypted, and, since the HSM's were made in England, we avoided the problem with export restrictions.

      --
      www.wavefront-av.com
    16. Re:could be worrying by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You are correct. One thing I would add, is that in the discretionary data, at the end of the track, there is a 4 digit "PIN OFFSET" on most cards. It depends on how the Issuer of the card had decided to do pin validation. If the Issuer decides to use Pinblock format then there will be no Pin Offset on the card. If the Issuer uses offset method then there will be a Pin Offset on the card. What is a Pin Offset you ask? The Issuer has a Double Length Triple DES Key. They use this Key and the full PAN (Card ID) and some 3DES encryption to create a cryptogram. The result is changed using a table, 1=1, 2=2,... A=1, B=2...F=6.. etc.. The lookup table is variable depending on the Issuer of the card. The Cryptogram is then converted from letters and numbers to just numbers. The first 4 digits, or how ever many the Issue wants, becomes your "Natural PIN". If the card holder wants their own pin, then the Natural PIN and the card holders PIN are calculated, and the "PIN OFFSET" is created. Easy as pie...

    17. Re:could be worrying by tomhudson · · Score: 1
      The PINs are encoded on the cards. How else do you think the ATM is able to allow you to withdraw a minimal amount of cash even when it's off-line or the system is down ...

      And then there's all the 9/11 ATM frauds - people scamming a bunch of ATMs that were screwed up, getting $500 out of each, and then trying to claim it wasn't them? One woman did this 54 times

      Up to 4,000 people overdrew their bank accounts by at least $1,000, Morgenthau said, more than 540 of them exceededing their balances by at least $5,000.

      According to authorities, a 54-year-old nurse made 54 cash withdrawals from Sept. 18 to the end of October, leaving her with a negative balance of $18,111. A Housing Authority employee reportedly made dozens of withdrawals, using his credit-union card to make purchases at a restaurant, a liquor store and a motel.
    18. Re:could be worrying by LoztInSpace · · Score: 1

      Do you think you could keep recipes on it as well?

    19. Re:could be worrying by MrRTFM · · Score: 1

      Well for crying out loud, maybe it's time to stop using the last 4 digits of your card number as your PIN :)

      --
      You can't expect to wield supreme executive power, just because some watery tart threw a sword at you
    20. Re:could be worrying by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      That is great! Thanks for making me laugh today!

      Seriously though, it's pretty sad how often people do that.

    21. Re:could be worrying by eison · · Score: 1

      Easy. Change your PIN. Notice how you can do it with a phone call without needing a new card.

      The debit card spec *has* to be open, too many people need to know it to write systems that work with it. Review it and see where the PIN is hiding. It isn't there.

      --
      is competition good, or is duplication of effort bad?
    22. Re:could be worrying by eison · · Score: 1

      American Visa and MasterCard check cards manage to do debit cards without having PINs encoded anywhere on the card. There is a key programmed in the card swipe device, another key loaded in the card swipe device that can be changed over time, and those are used to encrypt the PIN you enter and send to the bank, where they decrypt and compare to what they have on file.

      YMMV with other technologies (I know nothing about smart cards, for example), but putting the PIN on the card isn't necessary, isn't safe, and isn't done for the major networks.

      --
      is competition good, or is duplication of effort bad?
    23. Re:could be worrying by jrumney · · Score: 1

      I wasn't talking about PIN on cards, just a PIN offset, which is used when you change your own PIN. Do US banks let you change your PIN?

  7. Missing Information by jgbishop · · Score: 4, Insightful

    I'm just shocked at what *isn't* on my cards. For example, every time I go to my bank's ATM, I have to indicate whether I want to do business in English or Spanish. Shouldn't that information be on the card? I mean, the card is *mine* - they know who I am. Surely that should indicate what language I speak...

    --
    Go, and never darken my towels again! -- Rufus
    1. Re:Missing Information by Traegorn · · Score: 0

      Well, considering the vast number of English Only ATMs I use on a daily basis, couldn't that lead to issues of green screened machines locking up, declaring "I'm sorry, but your language is not supported."

      Or at least that's what would happen on the Diebold ones...

    2. Re:Missing Information by caino59 · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Yah know - I have wondered that myself so many damned times.

      Hell, just put my pin on there while we're at it. Just put in a fingerprint reader for some biometric authentication.

      Now that'd be nice. Just get rid of the card altogether, pay for that purchase with a fingerprint.

      Ugh, I better stop, someone is bound to be watching and realize that's a great way to generate a more accurate, more complete, and constantly updated finger print database....

    3. Re:Missing Information by thatnerdguy · · Score: 1

      maybe you should try another bank then. my card, when used at one of my bank's machines automatically chooses the right language for me. At POS machines, the language displayed on the keypad matches my selected language. Also at the store I work at, the language on the printed receipt matches as well.

      Still don't understand why I have to select my language if I want to use another bank's machine though.

      --
      I saw the Sign, and it opened up my eyes
    4. Re:Missing Information by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Actually there is a place for this on the stripe but since many Banks do not issue cards with this information:

      a) Another Bank cannot assume the information is correct
      b) The Bank that does not do this reliably itself has to assume everyone else is just as reliable (at its own ATMs)
      c) The Bank that does do this reliably assumes that no one else does (see b)

      So the result is that only if you are at one of you own Bank's ATM's and they know they do it reliably will you be likely to get the correct language dialog offered by default.

    5. Re:Missing Information by Reignking · · Score: 1

      I had one ATM card that I wanted to change the PIN on. When I did, at the ATM, it informed me that a new card would be sent with which I could use that PIN with, so it was definitely imbedded somewhere (magnetic stripe) on that card.

      --
      One man's Funny is another man's Offtopic.
    6. Re:Missing Information by swillden · · Score: 5, Insightful

      I'm just shocked at what *isn't* on my cards. For example, every time I go to my bank's ATM, I have to indicate whether I want to do business in English or Spanish.

      Well, if you were the engineering committee assigned the task of defining the standard data structures to be placed on all ATM cards, thinking about account codes, card verification codes, etc., and realizing that you have limited space to work with without adding more tracks (meaning more expensive readers and perhaps even slightly more expensive cards), would it have occurred to you to put the cardholder's language preference in there?

      I can tell yout that it wouldn't have occurred to me. And these data layouts can't be changed without going through a formal standards process, because they have to work in every ATM in the world (and now at many grocery stores, department stores, etc.).

      So, I'm not surprised at all that that data isn't there. If you want to be surprised by this, you should probably be surprised that the bank didn't choose to store your language preference in their database and then look it up when you swipe your card. That's the sort of feature that a bank can offer to its own customers at its own ATMs without having to get the rest of the world to agree.

      --
      Note to ACs: I usually delete AC replies without reading them. If you want to talk to me, log in.
    7. Re:Missing Information by supersnail · · Score: 1, Interesting
      The card is not yours!

      You didn't read the small print:

      This card is the property of The Big Bank and will remain so. The Big Bank reserves the right to demand the return of the card at any time.

      --
      Old COBOL programmers never die. They just code in C.
    8. Re:Missing Information by Reignking · · Score: 0

      OTOH, I like using Spanish de vez en cuando...

      --
      One man's Funny is another man's Offtopic.
    9. Re:Missing Information by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      That is disturbing a person who is well informed finds my card and can just go up to any atm and empty my account with the plain text pin located on the card. If this is true, you are rite this is quite disturbing.

      Yes, that's completely true!

      Also, did you know that the word "gullible" isn't in the dictionary?

    10. Re:Missing Information by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Interesting

      And these data layouts can't be changed without going through a formal standards process, because they have to work in every ATM in the world (and now at many grocery stores, department stores, etc.).

      Well I *am* surprised they don't have an extensible system, e.g. define tag 0xf0 as owner language, ignore tags you don't understand, etc.

    11. Re:Missing Information by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I'm more shocked that it doesn't assume English, and give you the option of choosing Spanish...

    12. Re:Missing Information by should_be_linear · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Well, everything is online AFAIK, so good SW engeneer will tell you that it needs only unique GUID of person to be stored on the card. Everything else ATM can download from the central (distributed) server. Adding new informations/functions only requires update/inovation on ATM side, not changing cads.

      --
      839*929
    13. Re:Missing Information by Otter · · Score: 3, Informative
      If you want to be surprised by this, you should probably be surprised that the bank didn't choose to store your language preference in their database and then look it up when you swipe your card.

      Exactly. There's no reason why that should be on the card, and my banks (Bank of America, formerly Fleet, formerly BankBoston, formerly Bay Bank, formerly...) have stored a language preference in the account data as far back as I can recall.

    14. Re:Missing Information by smatthew · · Score: 1

      Actually, Bank of America is starting to offer this to their customers. If you've seen their new ATM's with the big screens you might have noticed that it says "Retrieving personalizations" after you insert your card. Once you've entered your pin and are in the system there's a button you can press on the screen (something like "other options") and can set preferences, like language, and whether you want receipts for certain types of transactions. Pretty handy, but not something you'd know about unless you decided to just randomly click through the menus or someone told you about it.

      --
      slashdot username - at - email.domain.name
    15. Re:Missing Information by R2.0 · · Score: 1

      Bank of America does just this on the newer ATM's. If you take a minute to set your personal options, tou can set language, receipt or not, default fastcash amount, and some otehrs. Cuts my ATM time down a lot.

      --
      "As God is my witness, I thought turkeys could fly." A. Carlson
    16. Re:Missing Information by fixer007 · · Score: 1

      Actually it is possible to do this, and some places do. A language flag can be imprinted in the track2 data (card number) for the terminal to read.

    17. Re:Missing Information by rot26 · · Score: 1

      That's ok for terminals (ATM's) which are always connected to the network, but many if not most are not. Having most of the customer's info stored online and retrieved at the time of use would double (at least) the bandwidth required, and double (at least) the time each transaction takes to complete, and double (at least) the chances of communication failure.

      --



      To ensure perfect aim, shoot first and call whatever you hit the target
    18. Re:Missing Information by Dun+Malg · · Score: 1
      I'm just shocked at what *isn't* on my cards. For example, every time I go to my bank's ATM, I have to indicate whether I want to do business in English or Spanish. Shouldn't that information be on the card?

      Hell, it doesn't even need to be on the card. When you put in the card it should pop up two soft key definitions. One on one side that says "Enter PIN and press here" and one on the other side that says the same thing in spanish. They needlessly complicated the process by making it a separate question. The UIs on ATMs have always been poorly designed, though. Clearly they were slapped together in an ad hoc fashion by engineers more interested in writing key debounce routines.

      --
      If a job's not worth doing, it's not worth doing right.
    19. Re:Missing Information by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      In Switzerland the prefered language (we have four official languages by the way) is stored on the server. At least for the bank I use. This means that I always get a german navigation when I use a ATM in Switzerland. Abroad I still have to choose my prefered language every time I withdraw money from a ATM.

    20. Re:Missing Information by should_be_linear · · Score: 1

      For non-online shops, reading users GUID for later transaction is equal to reading any other information(s) found on the card for later transaction.

      --
      839*929
    21. Re:Missing Information by soft_guy · · Score: 1

      realizing that you have limited space to work with ...would it have occurred to you to put the cardholder's language preference in there?

      The iso codes for language only require two letters be used to represent a language. So, you're talking about 2 bytes. I understand about limited space, but 2 bytes isn't very much.

      --
      Avoid Missing Ball for High Score
    22. Re:Missing Information by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      This is the third post where you mispelled right.

      Please come back after a 3rd grade education.

    23. Re:Missing Information by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      There are many parts of the US where English speakers are in the minority.

    24. Re:Missing Information by EnglishDude · · Score: 1

      Actually due to working in Wales and living in England, I find when I use most the ATMs in Wales, (and some ATMs in Bristol where I live acutally) and when I enter my card, it pops up in 2 languages, "Enter your PIN" both in English and Welsh, and the bottom left button is marked "Enter" in English, and the bottom right button is marked "Enter" in Welsh - a person preferring Welsh would press the button labelled in Welsh, and as I don't speak a single word of Welsh, I opt to press the button marked in English :)

      Tho some ATMs in Wales (like 95% of ATMs in England) doesn't ask me that quesiton at all - just enter the PIN number and straight to the selection menu without needing to press anything - no language choices anywhere. Pain if I entered in the wrong PIN and have to wait until I've chosen how much money I want to take out.

    25. Re:Missing Information by Aliencow · · Score: 1

      In canada our ATM cards have a preference for French/English on them. Even if you go to an english speaking province with a french card it'll default to french...

    26. Re:Missing Information by Aidtopia · · Score: 3, Interesting
      So, I'm not surprised at all that that data [language preference] isn't there. If you want to be surprised by this, you should probably be surprised that the bank didn't choose to store your language preference in their database and then look it up when you swipe your card.

      I'm sure things have changed a lot in how the ATM networks work, and such a scheme may be feasible now, but this wouldn't have fit the model they had when first introduced. Throughout the 1970s, my mother, father, and step-father all wrote code for banking terminal systems and some of the first ATMs. From them I learned:

      There was one roundtrip to the bank's central computers after you had entered everything for the transaction. I assume this was for scalability. The ATM would collect your card number, PIN, and transaction request and send it as a single request the central computer. That's why they wouldn't tell you about a mistyped PIN until you've entered everything else for your transaction. Transactions were stored in a secondary database which were posted to your real account record overnight.

      In the good old days, the bank didn't assign a PIN for you, store it in a database (which could be snooped by employees), printed it on paper (which could be discovered by anyone), and send it to you in the mail (which could be stolen). Instead, to activate your account, you went to your local branch. A teller would come out to the ATM with you, put his/her card into the machine, enter his/her PIN, then insert your card, and finally turn his/her back while you entered a PIN of your choice. PINs were hashed in the ATM and the bank only ever had the hash, not the original value.

    27. Re:Missing Information by swillden · · Score: 1

      Very interesting. Thanks.

      --
      Note to ACs: I usually delete AC replies without reading them. If you want to talk to me, log in.
    28. Re:Missing Information by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      What if someone steals your bank card and they only speak Spanish?

      How inconsiderate.

    29. Re:Missing Information by Taladar · · Score: 1

      AFAIK they have only a few dozen bytes so tagging each information in might be a bit too much information to store on the card (as opposed to saying position x is information y).

    30. Re:Missing Information by PTBarnum · · Score: 1

      I'll give them credit for a good effort in storing only the hash of the PIN, but in reality that is little more than security through obscurity. Given that most PINs are only 4 digits, it would be trivial for anyone who knew the hash function to recover the plaintext from the hash by simple bruteforce methods.

    31. Re:Missing Information by Grishnakh · · Score: 2, Insightful

      All official business in the US is done in English. I see nothing wrong with assuming US residents know English, and letting them select otherwise later.

    32. Re:Missing Information by drinkypoo · · Score: 1

      The ATM at my school was built by Diebold. Talk about lacking that feeling of security...

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
    33. Re:Missing Information by Politburo · · Score: 1

      The problem with this solution is that not all ATMs are bilingual. Many are multi-lingual. Also, "enter" appears similar in many languages. I think the current solution is the best comprimise.

    34. Re:Missing Information by Politburo · · Score: 2, Interesting

      In the good old days, the bank didn't assign a PIN for you, store it in a database (which could be snooped by employees), printed it on paper (which could be discovered by anyone), and send it to you in the mail (which could be stolen).

      My bank (Bank of New York) doesn't discuss PINs, ever. If you need a new one, get to a branch. When I set my PIN, it was similar to what you describe, except we did not use the ATM, just a standalone reader and keypad that I assume was hooked into their central system. I figured every bank did it this way, but based on your language, that is apparently not the case.

    35. Re:Missing Information by Politburo · · Score: 2, Insightful

      I would think that this was done for security. If a malicious person had a person's card and PIN, and wanted to lock someone out of the account, they couldn't do so immediately, and if they did not have access to the person's mail, they would be SOL. I don't think that them sending you a new card means that the PIN is definitely embedded in the stripe. That doesn't seem logical.

    36. Re:Missing Information by mlevin · · Score: 1

      Yeah, but the system could use just the card/account number like a cookie and immediately look up your preferred language -- no need to store that on the card itself.

    37. Re:Missing Information by 4vidar · · Score: 1

      At my bank, when I go to my banks ATM, the language is already chosen for me. It is only when I go to 3rd party ATMs that I have to choose. So it is there, just not widely recognized (they must do it by ACCT #)

    38. Re:Missing Information by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      In South Africa bank cards DO store your language preference - been working like that since the 1970s. As South Africa has eleven official languages, offereing a choice on the machine would be a major inconvenience. Here in North America, I have to enter my language preference all the time, which is majorly schtoopidttt, although, I have heard that Quebeckers insisted on having a choice - apparently, they are unable to make up their minds about what language they want to speak, so now everybody else has to suffer with this sillyness too.

    39. Re:Missing Information by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I'm bilingual, sometimes I choose English and sometimes I choose Spanish.

    40. Re:Missing Information by apecar · · Score: 0

      Bank of Montreal up this way automatically runs the ATM in English or French, depending on the card you put in.

    41. Re:Missing Information by PopCulture · · Score: 1

      I see nothing wrong with assuming US residents know English, and letting them select otherwise later

      its the banking institution's perogative... I'm assuming "they" were responsible for the way the ATM checks first for language preference. I'm also assuming that "they" have a better grasp of the needs and desires of their local and national client base than you or I ;)

      besides, assuming you can speak english is one thing; assuming you would be as comfortable performing basic financial transactions in it as your native language is quite another...

      --

      Here's to finally giving Bush his exit strategy in November
    42. Re:Missing Information by GoRK · · Score: 2, Funny

      Sometimes I like to use the spanish option for fun. I don't speak or understand most spanish, but I never have a problem getting through it to get some cash.

      When I first got my drivers license, the "written" test was actually taken at a computer terminal. There was a long line at every one except for the spanish-language one. I asked what happened if one failed the test -- the DMV lady said that you could re-take it right then up to three times a day until you passed (obviously this is to ensure that there are plenty of dumbasses driving around for cops to be able to issue tickets)

      Anyway, I had nothing to lose and hours of time to gain, so I sprang for the spanish test. It was multiple choice with lots of pictures.

    43. Re:Missing Information by Grishnakh · · Score: 1

      Yeah, that's why you let people select a different option later. But for the majority of us who speak English, we shouldn't have to select our language every single time we use an ATM.

      Why aren't our ATMs as helpful as the ones in Canada and Europe, where they apparently remember what language you speak, and select that when you put your card in?

    44. Re:Missing Information by Gallowglass · · Score: 1

      Swillden is right. In fact, that's what happens here in Canada with our Financial institutions. (And I know it is his solution - "bank . . . store your language preference in their database and then look it up when you swipe" - because you are only asked to choose your preferred language when you access your account through some other organisation's ATM.)

      A benefit of living in a bilingual country.

    45. Re:Missing Information by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      What with Diet Rite, Stride-Rite and Rite Aid, can you blame him? Personally, I'm more bothered by his use of the term "backward complacency".

    46. Re:Missing Information by Abreu · · Score: 1

      All official business in the US is done in English.

      Not for long... Welcome to multiple official languages.

      No por mucho tiempo... Bienvenidos a tener múltiples lenguas oficiales.

      --
      No sig for the moment.
    47. Re:Missing Information by Abreu · · Score: 1

      Why aren't our ATMs as helpful as the ones in Canada and Europe, where they apparently remember what language you speak, and select that when you put your card in?

      Youre not alone, I keep getting asked the same question every time I use the ATM, and Im in Mexico City

      --
      No sig for the moment.
    48. Re:Missing Information by Lord+Dimwit+Flathead · · Score: 1

      That's a nice, elegant solution to the multiple language support vs. extra click-through tradeoff. If only more UI designers would think along those lines.

    49. Re:Missing Information by Canuck_TV · · Score: 1

      I'm shocked it isn't too - it is here.

      I live in Ottawa, Canada, which was the initial testing groud for Interac, our national debit network (cross-compatible with the Plus network used in the US and worldwide) back in the late eighties/early nineties. Being a bilingual city (English/French... the quebec border is about 600 feet from me right now) naturally, some carriers imbedded this functionality into their ATM cards. I've been with the Royal Bank of Canada for over 10 years, and even when I'm in Quebec City, I always get greeted with english prompts without further user intervention.

      So, in conclusion, the US banks must be lazy. The tech IS already there.

    50. Re:Missing Information by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Informative
      I don't know about the US, but PINs don't work like this in the UK.

      Your PIN is four digits extracted from a hash of your account number and a single secret code. A banks own ATMs have a tamper-proof cryptographic processor containing the secret code so they can verify PINs without a round trip to the central server.

      So, how can you change your PIN? The magnetic stripe on your card contains the difference between your chosen PIN and the real PIN. When you enter your PIN, the ATM adds in the difference and compares the result to the real PIN.

    51. Re:Missing Information by anopres · · Score: 1

      If the ATM is in the US, it should just default to English.

      --
      Strong Mad - 2008: "I PRESIDENT!"
    52. Re:Missing Information by DutchSter · · Score: 2, Interesting

      I'm just shocked at what *isn't* on my cards. For example, every time I go to my bank's ATM, I have to indicate whether I want to do business in English or Spanish. Shouldn't that information be on the card? I mean, the card is *mine* - they know who I am. Surely that should indicate what language I speak...

      Working for a bank, this one should be a home run, and a shameless plug...except that I'm not going to name my employer. There's several different reasons why that stuff isn't stored on a card itself. The two biggest are bandwidth and the availability of equipment to re-encode a card with your preferences.

      However, that does not mean that the ATM network servers cannot store your preferences. The bank I work for has begun rolling out a "My Preferences" feature on the new Diebold ATM machines. It lets you set a language, receipt option (yes/no), fast cash amount, and some other options. When you stick your card in, not only does it authenticate your PIN, but it pulls your preference file from the server. You can make updates any time from the on screen selections. It's pretty neat, you can cut at least three screens out by setting up those default responses.

      It has been interesting to see the marketing stats on how many times customers interface with the ATM before they decide to press the "Set up My Preferences" button. Right now the average is about 3 for those that are going to use the feature.

    53. Re:Missing Information by plover · · Score: 2, Interesting
      There's a lot of FUD in this discussion, and I'd like to clear a bit of it up. First, track data is very strictly formatted. If you are issuing a card for use in financial transactions, it needs to be encoded according to ISO 7811, 7812 and 7813 standards. These standards declare what each and every character on the cards means, how it is to be encoded, how it is to be read and how it is to be interpreted. And these standards do NOT currently contain a field for "Primary language of cardholder". Therefore, they can't store this information on the card, because nobody would know where to use it.

      And just for more information, track 2 has space for only 40 bytes of numeric data (it's a 4 bit character set that has no alpha capacity.) It has provisions for a country code, but only for cards in a specific format. The country code is to be used primarily to determine and display exchange rates to the cardholder. Currently, most credit cards issued in the United States use anywhere from 29 to 36 of the 40 available bytes. Many European cards use 33 to all 40. And some cards violate the standards, and exceed the maximums. Customers of these banks get turned away by retailers whose driver software refuses to parse these tracks.

      Any remaining space not covered by the required fields falls into a "discretionary data" field. This can be anywhere from 0 - 11 digits. Typically banks place a random nonce into the cards to ensure that the stripe could not be created without the card present.

      Technically, a specific bank could choose to issue cards that have an ISO language code embedded in their own discretionary data field, and could program their ATMs to respond to their cards. (They could also choose to have their own 0-9 language code, offering ATM services in one of 10 languages.) But any such system would be proprietary, and would not be respected outside of their own private network. That's why people see "Retrieving preferences" messages: the card is looked up first, and the preferences are transmitted back to the ATM. This method can be implemented by any ATM system, and will work regardless of what the issuing bank does on the mag stripes.

      Something else to keep in mind is that mag stripes turn over very slowly. That means you cannot just change the stripe format and expect magic to happen overnight. These cards are issued at great expense once every four years or so. I believe it costs somewhere around $2.50 or $3.00 to create and mail a new card. Multiply that by a million card holders, and that's an expense you want to avoid as much as possible.

      Finally, keep in mind that all this is based on 1970s era technology, and was developed with a distinctly American bias. Languages and disabilities were not a part of the landscape of the era.

      --
      John
    54. Re:Missing Information by Dun+Malg · · Score: 1
      The problem with this solution is that not all ATMs are bilingual. Many are multi-lingual. Also, "enter" appears similar in many languages. I think the current solution is the best comprimise.

      "Enter PIN" may be the same in both languages, but "and press here" are probably not. Cripes, if that's the only difficulty they can make it say "Enter PIN and press here for English". The current system is only seems like a good compromise if no one bothers to THINK.

      --
      If a job's not worth doing, it's not worth doing right.
    55. Re:Missing Information by sgt_doom · · Score: 1
      That is sooo weird!

      Everytime I go to my ATM it asks me if I'm ADD or Bi-polar??????

    56. Re:Missing Information by sgt_doom · · Score: 1
      That is sooo weird!

      Everytime I access the local ATM it inquires as to whether I'm ADD or Bi-polar?????

    57. Re:Missing Information by BluBrick · · Score: 1
      All official business in the US is done in English.

      Not for long... Welcome to multiple official languages.

      No por mucho tiempo... Bienvenidos a tener múltiples lenguas oficiales.
      In other words...
      Hay! Joo in America now. Joo speak Espanish here!
      --
      Ahh - My eye!
      The doctor said I'm not supposed to get Slashdot in it!
    58. Re:Missing Information by Trejkaz · · Score: 1

      A well-designed system would have a fallback for when the user's preferred language wasn't available on the machine.

      --
      Karma: It's all a bunch of tree-huggin' hippy crap!
    59. Re:Missing Information by Traegorn · · Score: 1

      A well-designed system would have a fallback for when the user's preferred language wasn't available on the machine.

      See, you're relying on someone to actually build a well designed system still. I lost that optimism a long time ago.

    60. Re:Missing Information by Trejkaz · · Score: 1

      True. People should also all just speak English, to make it easier on the developers.

      --
      Karma: It's all a bunch of tree-huggin' hippy crap!
    61. Re:Missing Information by Peeteriz · · Score: 1

      In the banks that I know, the PIN hashes are stored in a sealed high-security module, that basically no bank's employee has access.
      The idea is that brute-force attacks to get customer PIN's are impossible even if tried by a high-level manager of the bank. (The freezing for multiple false requests is done inside, logging is done inside, and anything can be accessed only by using multiple electronic keys which are carried by separate people).

      Security in banks is not done by obscurity, simply because they need to protect from the very real threat of their own employees being tempted to get rich quick.

    62. Re:Missing Information by eison · · Score: 1

      Either they change the mag stripe when you change your PIN (they don't), or else some consultation with a server's database is necessary to check the PIN you entered. Storing an offset doesn't get around this.

      --
      is competition good, or is duplication of effort bad?
  8. Time to start the over/under pool by aendeuryu · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Since one of the listed articles talks about common security blunders with cards, it's time to start the over/under pool on how long it takes before this guy gets shut down by some corporation claiming DMCA violations.

    I call one week.

    1. Re:Time to start the over/under pool by TripMaster+Monkey · · Score: 1

      I'm in for 6 weeks.

      --
      ____

      ~ |rip/\/\aster /\/\onkey

    2. Re:Time to start the over/under pool by TonyZahn · · Score: 1

      There's no DMCA potential here, the data's not encryped or anything. I used to with with card scanners that just plug into your keyboard port. You swipe a bank card through and up comed your name and address and some other stuff. Never examined it in much detail (shoulda thrown it into a hex editor), but it's not exactly secret.

      --
      - sig? who is this sig of which you speak?
    3. Re:Time to start the over/under pool by crunk · · Score: 1

      Well you are not decoding encryption you are just reading what is contained on the card. Is that still violating DMCA?

      --
      It's the battle of the minds, and everyone's unarmed.
    4. Re:Time to start the over/under pool by aendeuryu · · Score: 0

      Jeez, I wouldn't be surprised if even asking that sort of question was a violation of the DMCA.

    5. Re:Time to start the over/under pool by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      This is like saying that playing a CD violates CDMA because it's reading data off a storage medium. Sorry, but no.

      DCMA implies encryption is being broken. There's no encryption here--just plain text data written to a medium. While it's true that, in general, the people who wrote the data never envisioned consumers would have the tools to read the data, that's not a DCMA issue.

    6. Re:Time to start the over/under pool by Threni · · Score: 2

      I knew someone would say something like this. I also correctly predicted that no attempt whatsoever would be made to justify the statement, what with the mag stripes not being encrytped in any way, belonging to universal standards regarding how the data be read (and written) on the multitude of devices out there. Nice easy way to bumb your karma up!

    7. Re:Time to start the over/under pool by SlayerofGods · · Score: 1

      Funny you should mention that....
      (read his shirt)
      http://www.yak.net/acidus/magstripe/acidus-with-co la.jpg

      --

      Technology, the cause of and solution to all of life's problems.
    8. Re:Time to start the over/under pool by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I thought this statement was made because of Billy's previous problems with the DMCA... Fuck Blackboard

  9. From the "Why Use It?" portion by Reignking · · Score: 4, Informative

    Open your wallet. How many cards in there have magstripes on them? Three? Four? Five? Ever wonder what was encoded on them?

    I know I did. I had six cards in my wallet with magstripes. One day a friend of mine had a $200 Magstripe reader, so I ran my cards through. Aside from the expected credit card numbers, I was surprised by the amount of personal information encoded on them. In fact, for reasons I still don't know, 2 cards contained my social security number.

    --
    One man's Funny is another man's Offtopic.
    1. Re:From the "Why Use It?" portion by crunk · · Score: 1

      Now we just need to find out what's encoded on the back of our driver's license and military I.D. cards since they don't use a magstripe.

      --
      It's the battle of the minds, and everyone's unarmed.
    2. Re:From the "Why Use It?" portion by mickyflynn · · Score: 1

      If you're really worried about what's on your military ID, why did you join the military? it's sort of like that story a while back about uniform govt id cards for employees. you work there, it makes sense. don't work there, don't get one. Hell, my DOE card had RFID in 2002. the thing would read it out of my wallet in my pocket to let me into the buildings if i was standing right sometimes. But I got a lanyard instead because it was easier.

      Drivers licenses on the other hand, that's a whole other story.

    3. Re:From the "Why Use It?" portion by tajmorton · · Score: 1

      Article on Driver's License's... I know that I once found a tool that was open source that did the same thing, you'll have to do some more digging on Google.

      --
      Tell the truth and you won't have so much to remember.
    4. Re:From the "Why Use It?" portion by crunk · · Score: 2, Interesting
      I didn't say I was "worried" about it, but it would be intresting to know. I am not in the military, but I do remember the bar code from when I was a dependent and had a military I.D.

      BTW, I am a contractor and we use the same types of cards you are talking about. Not in the office I work at, but at other offices we have. In one office I can think of the doors actually authenticate you _and_ open the door automatically as you walk towards it. Pretty neat stuff.

      --
      It's the battle of the minds, and everyone's unarmed.
    5. Re:From the "Why Use It?" portion by mickyflynn · · Score: 1

      Come to think of it, your right, I did have to open the door. I mean unlock it. It was my first job out of high school as a student intern, programming in C on Linux this sort of machine vision spot size detection stuff for the cameras in the beam viewers of the Free Electron Laser.

      I'm putting in my OCS application next fall (I can apply as a senior) for cavalry scouts. When I get my ID, i'll hack it and look for you then. If I can remember how to do computer shit by then. I'm an English major these days.

    6. Re:From the "Why Use It?" portion by rayzat · · Score: 2, Informative

      http://turbulence.org/Works/swipe/main.html It has a java program that reads a picture of a barcode and tells you what information it contains.

    7. Re:From the "Why Use It?" portion by EnglishDude · · Score: 1

      In the UK, all the govt depts always explain what is on the machine readable data of the driving licence (barcode) and passports (bunch of alphanumeric characters) and other cards - normally there's a leaflet saying which bit stands for, and reading it, I can work out what most data stands for - my DoB, part of postcode, driver number, etc etc.

    8. Re:From the "Why Use It?" portion by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Thank you, fun ensues

  10. DMCA time? by newdamage · · Score: 1, Insightful

    I think this is a very cool project, but somehow I don't think it'll be out there very long. I'm sure the credit card companies, or some other large corporation will be doing the DMCA smackdown dance soon enough, claiming this software could only be used for criminal purposes and serves no academic purpose.

    --
    ce n'est pas un Sig.
    1. Re:DMCA time? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

      Doubtful. There is no reverse-engineering here, nor are any protections being overcome. That dude built a reader that does the very thing you're supposed to do with a magnetic stripe. How information is stored on these stripes is pretty much standardized and has been public knowledge for ages.

    2. Re:DMCA time? by swillden · · Score: 3, Insightful

      The DMCA's anti-circumventions provisions only apply to (a) copyrighted materials that are (b) "protected" by an anti-copying technology. Account codes and cardholder info are pure data, which is not copyrightable, and there is no anti-copying technology applied here, so there's nothing to circumvent.

      So, no, the DMCA doesn't apply.

      --
      Note to ACs: I usually delete AC replies without reading them. If you want to talk to me, log in.
    3. Re:DMCA time? by ChaosCube · · Score: 1

      Yes, I'm sure something along those lines will happen. But one must look at it this way: it does have academic purpose. Academic stuff involves teaching and learning, and I see plenty of that going on here. Even though I am not a lawyer, I see a striking parallel between this "academic purpose" and the Sony Betamax case. Since there is a legitimate use, it's legal. In this case, that use would be a learning tool.

      --
      BDR Gear
      Outdoor gear, MREs, and more!
    4. Re:DMCA time? by JavaNPerl · · Score: 4, Informative

      Most of the information about credit cards is contained within various ISOs. IANAL but, I don't think legal actions could be taken against software which implements a public specification. Although this project is nice, there isn't much you can't figure out about CCs by reading the specs. Personally I've found the most interesting information is contained on cards which are not well defined like student ID cards, video rental cards, etc.

      ISO 7810 Physical Characteristics of Credit Card Size Document
      ISO 7811-1 Embossing
      ISO 7811-2 Magnetic Stripe - Low Coercivity
      ISO 7811-3 Location of Embossed Characters
      ISO 7811-4 Location of Tracks 1 and 2
      ISO 7811-5 Location of Track 3
      ISO 7811-6 Magnetic Stripe - High Coercivity
      ISO 7813 Financial Transaction Cards
      ISO 4909 Track 3 Data Format

    5. Re:DMCA time? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Thats what you'd think, but I'm sure someone would make it to court and drag it out a few years before winning anyway.

      Don't forget, the DMCA applies to remote control codes too, so why not account codes?

    6. Re:DMCA time? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      While I agree with what you've said, ultimatly the question of whether the DCMA applies is a matter to be determined by a court of law. Which means anyone who doesn't like this particular software can certainly complain, even if they're likely to lose.

      Basically, this is a job for "the cost of defending yourself is a 'fine' you can't afford." Big companies are really good at squeezing out the little guy this way.

      Consider what would happen if even an "unlikely to win" DCMA case was presented. How will it be percieved by YOUR ISP if they get a letter informing them that you're violating DCMA? Actually, such a "takedown notice" REQUIRES them to take your content down immediatly, pending your response. And what would they do if you said "well, technically, it's not encrypted, so DCMA does not apply." The lawsuit is still out there. And, legal or not, you ARE looking at data the credit card companies don't want you looking at. What ISP/hosting company is going to face legal action over this project against a deep-porcketed opponent, because TECHNICALLY it's not illegal? I would suggest that the legal threat will be sufficient to get this off any significant/reputable hosting company's site.

      OK, so, host it yourself on your own machine. The problem there is you still have a big lawsuit to deal with. And I'm sure the major credit companies will file hundreds of briefs, motions for summary judgement, and more claims than you can shake a stick at. Where will this guy get the legal resources to deal with this, and how much will it cost? Being in the right is nice, but frankly it doesn't guarantee you'll prevail in a court of law, and it doesn't get you cash upfront to hire a legal team to PROVE you're in the right.

    7. Re:DMCA time? by freshman_a · · Score: 1

      I work for a company that sells and services ID card and access control software and equipment. My job includes repair and testing this equipment and software, and as such, I'm currently sitting here with all kinds of software and equipment with the capabilities to read and write mag strips, barcodes, smart cards, prox cards, etc. There are lots of legit and "non-academic" uses for these kinds of things other than banking/credit cards so I don't think the DCMA will cause too many problems.

    8. Re:DMCA time? by swillden · · Score: 1

      Thats what you'd think, but I'm sure someone would make it to court and drag it out a few years before winning anyway.

      Perhaps, but I don't think so. To start a court case you have to be able to allege a claim that has at least some basis in the law. Otherwise, your opponent will have a really easy time getting a dismissal or a summary judgement.

      The court system isn't quite as bad as many slashdotters seem to think.

      on't forget, the DMCA applies to remote control codes too, so why not account codes?

      Because it didn't apply to "remote control codes" even in the initial claim -- no one thought the codes were copyrightable. What was at issue was the software used to generate and verify those codes. Even that was a weak argument, weak enough that the court ultimately threw it out, but it was enough of an argument to drag the case out for a while (less than a year, IIRC).

      In this case there is *nothing* copyrighted and *nothing* protected.

      --
      Note to ACs: I usually delete AC replies without reading them. If you want to talk to me, log in.
    9. Re:DMCA time? by denobug · · Score: 1
      I think this is a very cool project, but somehow I don't think it'll be out there very long. I'm sure the credit card companies, or some other large corporation will be doing the DMCA smackdown dance soon enough, claiming this software could only be used for criminal purposes and serves no academic purpose.

      Back in school, one of the class I took actually did a readout of the mag-strip cards as a part of one project. Although we did not go as deep as this guy did, certainly someone could have done more to the program to translate all this data into some tangible information. I seriously doubt that this part of lesson could be certified if it violates any kind of regulations.

  11. Hoffman by delirium+of+disorder · · Score: 4, Informative

    Billy Hoffman, aka Acidus, is one of the top up and comming security experts; he probably knows more about card systems and ATMs then anyone outside "the industry". I had the privilage of seeing him speak and phreaknic and hope his contributions to the hacking community continue. People like him keep the rest of us free and informed dispite the massive corporate, academic, and government powers that would have otherwise. So....Thanks!

    --
    ------ Take away the right to say fuck and you take away the right to say fuck the government.
    1. Re:Hoffman by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You forgot to mention that he is a jerk: http://stripesnoop.sourceforge.net/faq.html#g7

      I don't agree with RMS either, but calling him a communist is typical "americanism". When americans can't rebuff someone's ideas, they diminish it calling them Nazis, Commies or Terrorists.

      Bah!

      (BTW, I will post anonymously since I don't wannt be killed by "The Freedom Fighters")

    2. Re:Hoffman by delirium+of+disorder · · Score: 1

      Meh. Worse things could be said then "coding communist". I personally agree with RMS in general (although I also can see why the BSDL is more free), but lets not get too politically correct. Stallman, in addition to creating and touting the GPL, is involved in a lot of left wing politics. Although Marxism is dead outside academia, as a culture, we still associate the radical left with communism. The label's connotation with the red scare and McGarthiesm is kinda scary, and so I personally don't call people communists unless they claim to be so. However, I don't take offence when people call Free/OSS leader's communist. Perhaps we are taking the best of communism (collective economics) and getting rid of the worst (centralisation and authoritarianism). As a libertarian socialist (anarcho-syndicalist in other terms), I personally like this idea.

      --
      ------ Take away the right to say fuck and you take away the right to say fuck the government.
    3. Re:Hoffman by NoData · · Score: 0

      Bill Hoffman? Or Bill Frenchman?

    4. Re:Hoffman by Progoth · · Score: 1

      Eh

      We started at GT the same semester, we were actually paired up for the two day freshman orientation. Talked way more than I could handle, but nice guy.

      I'm just surprised nobody's mentioned the trouble with Blackboard...I know there were multiple /. posts about the affair

    5. Re:Hoffman by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      libertarian socialist

      Wouldn't this trigger a matter/anti-matter 'splosion?

    6. Re:Hoffman by delirium+of+disorder · · Score: 1

      I don't mean libertarian in the oft-used capitalist sence. I just believe that the only legitamite use of force (and remember the defining factor of government is the right to use force) is in defence. I also don't particularly like the centralisation of socialist systems. They work if there is enough oversight, but it' easy to get bogged down in bureaucracy. What I really believe is: workers need to collectivly take ownership for the social aspects of their work. Both politics and economics should be egalitarian, non-coersive, and participatory. Most people who claim to support the free market really just want a fascist system where the military props up harmful organisations. Anyone who believes that corporations have any rights at all shares this view. A real free market would be socialist because the workers would have power as both educated producers and consummers. Our economy would be much more efficient if it weren't waisted on things the don't help anyone.

      Think of how much goes up in smoke in weapons tests and warfare. Think of the marketing and advertising money speant on propaganda to warp people's minds. No reasonable intelligent, free thinking person would get information about a product's quality verses the competator's from the seller of the product. Think of all the money waisted on intellectual property that could be free. The executives of the RIAA don't make music, why should they profit from it in an age where recording and distribution are virtually without cost!

      Since we can't fight the second law of therdynamics, we need to focus on efficiency instead of grouth. Fossil fuels and industrial pollutants will just become too waistefull otherwise, and usable reasorces will decline in ammount and increese in cost. People won't have this focus unless they learn a bit about physics, ecology, climate, biology, chemestry, etc. And they won't learn anything about these subjects as long as there are authoritarian public schools, and idiotic obsequious churches. All institutions that imploy massive hiararchial structure are dangerous. That is why I am an anarchaist at heart.

      --
      ------ Take away the right to say fuck and you take away the right to say fuck the government.
    7. Re:Hoffman by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Acidus (Hoffman) was a guest on Binary Revolution Radio in early August and discussed his reader, research and projects in detail. You can download the episode here: http://www.binrev.com/radio/archive/binrev056.mp3 or search through the archives for episode 56: http://www.binrev.com/radio/archive.html It's a great show and has lots of interesting content every week.

    8. Re:Hoffman by CAIMLAS · · Score: 1

      What troubles with blackboard are you talking about?

      Aside from it being a steaming pile of shit, that is. And the fact that it costs an arm and a leg, and has a slew of easily-exploitable vulns... Was there something specific recently which I missed?

      --
      ~/ssh slashdot.org ssh: connect to host slashdot.org port 22: too many beers
    9. Re:Hoffman by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      FuckBlackboard.com

      That was the site i threw together shortly after they got the smack down from Blackboard at Interz0ne II. Unfortunately i let the domain expire and Blackboard(!) bought it.

      whois fuckblackboard.com

  12. Inspired by article in Make? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

    Hmm, I wonder whether it is just a coincidence that the first issue of Make had an article explaining how to hoook up a cheap mag-stripe reader to your computer and use Stripe Snoop to read it.

    1. Re:Inspired by article in Make? by REBloomfield · · Score: 0

      This guy has been doing this for ages. The coke dispenser he knocked up was posted on /. ages back.

    2. Re:Inspired by article in Make? by wolrahnaes · · Score: 1

      Hell, I think this very project has been posted here before. I know I've come across Stripe Snoop a few times, and the main place that I get links to projects like this is here.

      --
      I used to get high on life, but I developed a tolerance. Now I need something stronger.
  13. Nothing new to thieves by szlevente · · Score: 5, Insightful

    I don't think articles such as this one will bring anything new to those who are in the business of credit card stealing. But it should serve as an eye-opener and for raising awareness for the average card user. Being a little more careful with that card should help a lot, I guess. Besides, I let the bank use my money for a reason, right? They should take the risk on themselves...

    1. Re:Nothing new to thieves by crunk · · Score: 1

      You bring up an intresting point. A thief could use a hand held size credit card reader. All he would have to do is "borrow" your card for a second and he has all your card information. You wouldn't even know your information was stolen until they made a bunch of charges on your card.

      --
      It's the battle of the minds, and everyone's unarmed.
    2. Re:Nothing new to thieves by Rude+Turnip · · Score: 1

      Unscrupulous waiters already use such devices to steal customers' credit card numbers. This is why I'd only use my debit card where the payment transaction happens in front of me.

    3. Re:Nothing new to thieves by Foolomon · · Score: 1

      Perhaps those who are already doing it won't learn anything new, but those who may have considered it in the past but didn't know where to begin looking will now engage in this activity because of this project.

      We had script-kiddies invade the hacker space. Will we now have card-kiddies?

    4. Re:Nothing new to thieves by CAIMLAS · · Score: 1

      Not only that, but it would be trivial for a thief to take the card's data and put it on a similar credit card (maybe one with "their" name on it) and use it in a store like a valid credit card. Being as all scanners these days are digital, and people -never- check to see if the numbers check the physical impression on the card (but only compare ID to card, if even that), it'd be a "safe way to use the stolen information.

      Since it's such an obvious method, I don't doubt it's already done, though.

      --
      ~/ssh slashdot.org ssh: connect to host slashdot.org port 22: too many beers
  14. What's contained on your credit card? by crunk · · Score: 1

    I'm going to go out on a limb here and say credit card number? Your name perhaps?

    --
    It's the battle of the minds, and everyone's unarmed.
    1. Re:What's contained on your credit card? by TRS80NT · · Score: 1

      Yes, your name, as I discovered in the late '80s when I happened to encounter a gas station in rural Arizona with a much fuller implementation of the technology than I had seen at home in California. The pump welcomed me by name. I got all excited. I was banging on the window to wake up my daughter: "Look, Miriam, the pump knows my name!"
      With all these ranchers, filling up their pickups, probably thinking "What? They don't have pay-at-the-pump in California?"

      --
      Lorem ipsum dolor sit amet.
  15. This sucker will read any stripe you can find! by mtDNA · · Score: 0, Offtopic

    I've tried this software. It's awesome. It read every stripe I threw at it - even the brown stripe in my jockeys!!!

    --


    If you watch TV news, you know less about the world than if you just drank gin straight from the bottle.
  16. More info.... by thoughtcr1mes · · Score: 5, Informative

    Stripe Snoop was discussed in detail by its author on a show called Binary Revolution Radio awhile back. You can download the ep, #56, at: http://www.binrev.com/radio/archive.html/ -enjoy, it's a really good show!

    1. Re:More info.... by thoughtcr1mes · · Score: 1

      correction: http://www.binrev.com/radio/archive.html

  17. Encrypted PIN on credit cards? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Interesting

    One of the screenshots shows that there's an encrypted PIN stored on credit cards. How soon before we are able to de-encrypt that? Then all a thief needs is a magstripe reader, this free program, and the decrypter program, to start his business.
    Even if it's irreversible, it can't be too hard to brute force number-only PINs.

    1. Re:Encrypted PIN on credit cards? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      3DES. It'll take awhile.

    2. Re:Encrypted PIN on credit cards? by rhombic · · Score: 3, Insightful

      "it can't be too hard to brute force number-only PINs."

      Yeah, especially since all the ATM cards I've ever used use only four digit PINs (securing all of your cash with a 14bit key???)

      I doubt if you'd even have to brute force it. Look in the right places, you can probably find the hashing algorithm (even if they're not using something obvious, which they probably are). Just generate all 10000 hashes and use it as a lookup table for all the cards you can get your hands on. Yikes.

      --
      1984 was supposed to be a warning, not an instruction manual.
    3. Re:Encrypted PIN on credit cards? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      One of the screenshots shows that there's an encrypted PIN stored on credit cards.

      And how exactly do you know that it's an encrypted pin and not just 4 random numbers?

      Can't think of an answer can you?

    4. Re:Encrypted PIN on credit cards? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Number-only pins, especially with the typical lengths (4 digits...) would be trivial enough to brute force that almost any kind of encryption/hashing imaginable would be practically equivalent to plain text.

      On a smart card, the PIN can be much more useful - the PIN can be the decryption key for the private key on the card, which is never disclosed but used to sign challenges. It can still be brute forced, but it's slow as you have to do it over the smart card interface.

    5. Re:Encrypted PIN on credit cards? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Informative

      It can't be "brute forced" or "cracked", any more than you can tell what the OTP enciphered message "htpn juio gowew" says without the pad. In modern banking systems it's part of a two factor system, in which you need the algorithm plus ANY TWO of the following in order to figure out the third

      * Real PIN (typically stored in customer's brain, sometimes also on a PostIt stuck inside their desk drawer)

      * PIN offset (stored on magstripe of card)

      * Stored PIN from database (stored in a secure machine at the bank, probably along with your current balance)

      You can imagine that the function used is XOR, but actually there are various methods that could work, and I've never investigated which one is used. However this system lets several moderately clever things happen...

      1. You can have two cards (e.g husband and wife) for the same account with different PINs, yet store only one PIN in the database

      2. ATMs can change the PIN by knowing your old and new PIN, then applying the changed offset to the magstripe.

      3. By leaving the PIN unchanged and issuing a card with a different offset the bank can send you a new card, with a new PIN, without instantly disabling your old card and PIN.

      4. Knowing the PIN, and having a valid card number are not sufficient to validate yourself to the ATM network. You don't know the offset that goes with that PIN, you'd have to steal (or at least read) the customer's card to get a valid offset.

      5. The real PIN is never sent over the network. So if you have an opportunity to eavesdrop on bank network traffic you don't learn the PIN for anyone's card.

      This is actually pretty clever stuff, the banks can be many things, but they're not stupid, you don't last long in financial circles if you are.

    6. Re:Encrypted PIN on credit cards? by bsiggers · · Score: 1

      I heard this was relatively simple, since the standards for this kind of stuff are generally pretty old. Had a boss once who in his spare time figured out the encryption key for the 'Interac'-based PINs in the 1970s-ish around when Interac was becoming widespread, he said it was no big deal & could be done pretty simply with pen and paper & free time.

    7. Re:Encrypted PIN on credit cards? by fixer007 · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Not really... As said earlier the 'PIN' on the card is not actually the PIN at all. It is merely an offset which is used along with a DES key and the PAN to calculate the real PIN. Your bank may either store the real PIN on their host system or use this offset calculation method. The PIN is transmitted over the line during a transaction (unless the ATM verifies for you). It is either DES or TDES encrypted, so technically that could be brute-forced.

    8. Re:Encrypted PIN on credit cards? by hackstraw · · Score: 1


      I've changed my pin before on my bank cards, but I never gave the card to anybody to reprogram.

      I believe it is looked up upon entry, or at least that would make sense to me. Its too easy to buy a reader and brute force it offline.

      Even if there is a number of failed attempts lockout of trying to brute force a PIN at an ATM. Most people would get tired of standing there before getting near the right PIN.

      If I've mistakenly put in the wrong PIN on my card, it silently accepts it, and makes me go through the menus to do what I need to do, and then at the very end it says "Wrong PIN" and ejects my card.

      Even if it only took 10 seconds to try each PIN, that would mean that in 5 minutes one could only attempt 30 different PINs. It would be easier to break into a house.

    9. Re:Encrypted PIN on credit cards? by asuffield · · Score: 1

      This is actually pretty clever stuff, the banks can be many things, but they're not stupid, you don't last long in financial circles if you are.

      They didn't arrive at this by design. They arrived at it by exhaustion, endlessly trying different schemes and having them cracked.

    10. Re:Encrypted PIN on credit cards? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      a guy in France did just that a couple of years ago and he is in jail now

    11. Re:Encrypted PIN on credit cards? by CAIMLAS · · Score: 1

      It would make a hell of a lot of sense to require the pin to be checked against the bank's authentication servers instead of storing it on the card.

      I'd always thought that's how it was done - check against the bank's database. The more I think about it, the more I doubt that it's the actual PIN on the card (maybe a card ID instead? IE, "card 1 for the account, card 2 for the account, etc.). Otherwise you'd not be able to change your PIN, which is currently a fairly trivial thing to do by calling your bank up.

      --
      ~/ssh slashdot.org ssh: connect to host slashdot.org port 22: too many beers
  18. I just tried mine... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Funny

    It said "Paul is dead"

    What's that mean?

    1. Re:I just tried mine... by Corporate+Drone · · Score: 0
      It said "Paul is dead"

      What's that mean?

      Just a guess, but I'm thinking it's gonna mean that 2/3 of the /. audience won't get the reference.

      Now, if it were a reference to "Dimebag"...

      --
      mmm... yeah... You see, we're putting the cover sheets on all TPS reports now before they go out...
    2. Re:I just tried mine... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I think that 2/3 or more WILL get it... do you just want to feel special?

    3. Re:I just tried mine... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      OK, time for a quickie poll.

      Without revealing what the reference actually IS, please reply with a "Got it" or "Huh"

      I'm a "Got it."

    4. Re:I just tried mine... by PedanticSpellingTrol · · Score: 0

      33% joke recognition? You're hopeless optimistic friend. That said, mmm, walrus.

    5. Re:I just tried mine... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yeah, got it here, for what it's worth.

    6. Re:I just tried mine... by mustangsal66 · · Score: 1

      Your swipping it in the wrong direction...

      --
      Why worry? Each of us is wearing an unlicensed "nucular" accelerator on his back.
      Sig changed for readability by G.W.
    7. Re:I just tried mine... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Funny, mine said "There's still time to change the road you're on." Must have swiped it backwards.

    8. Re:I just tried mine... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Mine says: I am the Mastercard, goo goo ka choo.

    9. Re:I just tried mine... by zoloto · · Score: 1

      I prefer submarines... of the yellow color

    10. Re:I just tried mine... by fishbowl · · Score: 1

      Hey, did you know that Denny Laine was in another band before Wings????

      --
      -fb Everything not expressly forbidden is now mandatory.
    11. Re:I just tried mine... by Kiaser+Zohsay · · Score: 1

      What color was that card? Was it white? Was there any text on the front of it? No? Hmmmm.....

      --
      I am not your blowing wind, I am the lightning.
  19. Your worries are misplaced by Laurentiu · · Score: 3, Insightful

    The average Joe is very careful with his plastics, and won't loose the suspicious waiter from his sights while the later handles his credit card. The same Joe will thoughtlessly type away his credit card number as a means of "age verification" in some random Paris Hilton pictorial site.

    A hacker getting through his poorly set up XP box and stealing his credit card number is more dangerous than a device needing the presence of a physical card. And, of course, there are this kind of occurences, which are the most worrying of all.

    --
    Just /. IT
    1. Re:Your worries are misplaced by OverlordQ · · Score: 1

      Not true, offline fraud is vastly more prominent then online fraud.

      --
      Your hair look like poop, Bob! - Wanker.
  20. I've done this by The+Hobo · · Score: 4, Interesting

    I've actually done this myself, purchased the magnetic reader, some electrical parts, soldered the thing together. Once I had things going, when you swipe say a Visa, it lists the card #, the expiry date, and the issuing bank. I've also tried it with a bank card, and it does list the bank card #, and an 'encrypted pin', which, if I understand correctly, is encrypted with triple DES (that's what I remember, I may be wrong). I also swiped my University student card, but can't yet make out what it has stored. Finally, I swiped an M&M Meat Shops Max Member card and all it has on it is the max member #, nothing more. Also, the person I did this with created some shims to raise the card so as to read the 2nd and 3rd track. It was overall a neat project.

    --
    There is another kind of evil which we must fear most, and that is the indifference of good men. -- Boondock Saints
    1. Re:I've done this by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If the PIN is encrypted with triple DES that would be an enourmous security hole!. There are just 10000 possible pin codes, and to apply a triple DES algorithm for every code is extremely easy and fast. You just have to match one of these "encripted" codes with the one in your magnetic card and Voilá! you have it...

      I think the encryption must be other kind of algorithm. Otherwise, our money is really in a big threat.

      Greetings

      Zerjillo

    2. Re:I've done this by volsung · · Score: 1

      Yeah, hopefully they attach random bits to the PIN (padding out to the 64-bit block size) and encrypt that. That would thwart the simple dictionary attack.

    3. Re:I've done this by zoloto · · Score: 1

      I've noticed the use of encrypted pins on the stripe as well and think it's really dumb. For obvious reasons, I went and used a card reader to read some of my families and friends bank cards to see which bank in my area didn't actually store the pin in a hash (same with my credit card company) and went with that bank.

      Then I fired off a letter to all of those institutions about why I wouldn't bank there and one to my current bank about why I did. Coincidentally they had one of the best rates for checking/savings/cd's and ira's :)

      What's in your wallet?

    4. Re:I've done this by fishbowl · · Score: 1


      "Then I fired off a letter to all of those institutions about why I wouldn't bank there and one to my current bank about why I did."

      Are you going to name these banks or do you expect everyone else to duplicate your research?

      --
      -fb Everything not expressly forbidden is now mandatory.
    5. Re:I've done this by zoloto · · Score: 1

      This was about 8 years ago. Those banks and systems have changed so it wouldn't do any good. And yes, I've checked recently.

    6. Re:I've done this by fishbowl · · Score: 1

      Off topic, but I've got $20 in a Bank One account in Texas, but I don't live in Texas. Numerous calls to Bank One have done absolutely no good. I cannot close the account without taking the money out, and I cannot take the money out without going to Texas and doing it in person. But every 6 weeks, I get a letter from Bank One insisting that I have an account open, yadda yadda yadda. This has gone on for years.

      I don't know what my point is, but the experience makes me not want to use Bank One at all.

      Oh, they send me a new ATM card once in a while too. I don't like having this account, since I think it might be an ID theft exploit waiting to happen.

      --
      -fb Everything not expressly forbidden is now mandatory.
    7. Re:I've done this by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      use card to make a purchase of the amount equal to that in your bank account.

      Call bank, tell them to close the account, as the balance is now zero.

      Usually you want to write check to yourself in this fashion, but I'm guessing you don't have a checkbook anymore.

    8. Re:I've done this by John+Meacham · · Score: 1

      No need for a dictionary attack. Just take your own valid card with an encrypted PIN you know (because it is yours) and replace the account number with someone elses. Then use the card and type in your PIN and extract cash from the other account. Newer ATMs will hash the account number along with the PIN making this not work, but not everywhere.

      --
      http://notanumber.net/
    9. Re:I've done this by imsabbel · · Score: 1

      The account number is part of the seed, too, IIRC.
      I mean, people arent complete idiots, and if you could just change the account number while keeping the pin, it would have been abused long ago.

      --
      HI O WISE PRINCE. WHT TOOK U SO DAM LONG?
    10. Re:I've done this by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yes. and it was abused a long time ago. that is why the account number is part of the seed. it was not always so.

  21. But the important part is... by zoharroy · · Score: 3, Interesting

    you can use it (like he did) to build your own coke machine....
    http://www.yak.net/acidus/magstripe/coke.html

    1. Re:But the important part is... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I have one already. It's called a "refrigerator".

  22. Transcript by mushupork · · Score: 3, Funny
    As Dave starts sliding his cards thru the reader, looking at all of his private info flashing up on his monitor...a red camera eye fills the screen:
    Dave Bowman: What's the problem?
    HAL: I think you know what the problem is just as well as I do.
    Dave Bowman: What are you talking about, HAL?
    HAL: This mission is too important for me to allow you to jeopardize it.
    Dave Bowman: I don't know what you're talking about, HAL.
    Errie, eh?
    --
    Currently bidding on sig
  23. Why do I get the impression by Anita+Coney · · Score: 2, Funny

    that a few weeks after ordering the necessary hardware, you'd get sued or arrested.

    --
    If someone says he and his monkey have nothing to hide, they almost certainly do.
    1. Re:Why do I get the impression by JohnGrahamCumming · · Score: 2, Interesting

      I bought a magstripe reader that connects to the keyboard port of my laptop and looks like a keyboard. Don't need any special software to read the output because it emulates key presses. I just go into the emacs scratch buffer and swipe the card. The reader even puts end-of-line characters at the end of each track.

      Can someone point out why Stripe Snoop is better than my solution?

      John.

    2. Re:Why do I get the impression by badfish99 · · Score: 1

      Because you haven't realized that every shopkeeper in the country has already ordered the same hardware.

    3. Re:Why do I get the impression by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Maybe it's cheaper?

      Looks simple enough, just seems to be synchronized serial port.

    4. Re:Why do I get the impression by DigitalSorceress · · Score: 3, Insightful
      "Can someone point out why Stripe Snoop is better than my solution?"
      Not just because it's cheaper, but the author of Stripe Snoop is showing people how to build their own from parts (encouraging an interest in Electronics) as well as providing Open Source software that not only reads from the hardware he built, but also will deal with data from your reader, and provides added functionality (as the article compares) sort of like a CDDB that will help you figure out what some of the data means... Software you can take apart and put back together again in your own way to maybe learn something and create something new by building on his work.
      --

      The Digital Sorceress
    5. Re:Why do I get the impression by Zordak · · Score: 1
      Can someone point out why Stripe Snoop is better than my solution?
      For future reference, the proper name for the computer you are using is an eMac, not "emacs." emacs is an esoteric and poorly designed vi wannabe that anybody who would ask this question would never use. <\smug_taunt >
      --

      Today's Sesame Street was brought to you by the number e.
    6. Re:Why do I get the impression by zoloto · · Score: 1

      can you provide alink to this mag stripe reader so we can get one? I'm interested.

    7. Re:Why do I get the impression by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0


      "Because you haven't realized that every shopkeeper in the country has already ordered the same hardware."

      Most POS readers are leased as part of a merchant service package, and are not the property of the merchant. Nothing nefarious here, it just makes more sense.

    8. Re:Why do I get the impression by |<amikaze · · Score: 1

      For future reference, the proper name for the computer you are using is an eMac,

      Given that he said it was a laptop, I have a distinct feeling that you are in fact the one who is mistaken. Also, the fact that it has a keyboard port is a sure indication that it's not an Apple product.

    9. Re:Why do I get the impression by AndrewRUK · · Score: 1
      emacs is an esoteric and poorly designed vi wannabe
      How dare you?!?! Emacs is an excellent and fully featured operating system, which includes a shell, a mail client, a calendar, and a text editor.
      You can even run it on a eMac if you wish...
  24. Changing the Strip by n0dalus · · Score: 5, Interesting

    How easy would it be to edit the data on the strips?
    For example, would it be possible for me to take my magnetic bus ticket and easily add another 10 trips to it?

    1. Re:Changing the Strip by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
      For example, would it be possible for me to take my magnetic bus ticket and easily add another 10 trips to it?

      Only in a poorly designed system.

      I'd expect a magnetic bus ticket to have an identifier that is used to query a central DB for how many trips you have left.. assuming the infrastructure is there.

      Internet Over Subway Rails?

    2. Re:Changing the Strip by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Funny

      Top tip

      When planning misdemeanours, don't do it in public on slashdot. ; )

    3. Re:Changing the Strip by hackstraw · · Score: 4, Informative

      How easy would it be to edit the data on the strips?

      Its trivial. You can get a magstripe writer for a couple hundred bucks, max.

      For example, would it be possible for me to take my magnetic bus ticket and easily add another 10 trips to it?

      Depends on how the bus tickets are set up. If they have a unique identifier on them and it looks up your balance against a central database. No luck. If the info is stored on the ticket itself, it should be trivial. Although the paper bus and train tickets are not the same as standard CC style cards.

      Interesting trivia on the subject.

      Ever wonder why the person swipes your credit card and then enters the last 4 digits that are hologram embossed on the card manually?

      Because its trivial to put any account number on the card.

      CC numbers have an internal checksum, so you cant simply make up a number that will match the last 4 digits. The odds of reprogramming your card with an active and valid account that matches your last 4 digits printed on your card are pretty low.

    4. Re:Changing the Strip by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Eh. Your definition of "pporly defined" appears to be where the card itself has value--i.e. the data on the card is what determines how many trips it's good for, and that a "well defined" system keeps what's valuable off the card and in a safe place (i.e. the central database).

      While for many applications that's true, the whole concept of "smart cards" is built precicely around this principle--the actual item of value (including cash value!) is physically stored on the card itself--no central DB required.

      Of course, smart cards are far more sophisticated than magstripe, but the wave of the future appears to be self-sufficient, self-verifying cards...

    5. Re:Changing the Strip by drew · · Score: 1

      i don't know where you live, but in chicago, where a friend of mine worked on a project with the cta, all the cards store is an id number. the number of trips is only stored in the transit agencies computer system.

      --
      If I don't put anything here, will anyone recognize me anymore?
    6. Re:Changing the Strip by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Informative

      The checksum method for credit cards is well known and isn't even close to sha-1 or md4/md5 in terms of security. It isn't that much harder to break than crc32 is for programs that check their crc32 checksum. Of course it would take time unless you just happened to have a large database of active credit card numbers available such as one from Choicepoint.

    7. Re:Changing the Strip by heyitsme · · Score: 1

      But much like the scams used with reprogramming gift cards, a valid attack can be launched by reprogramming a different ID that (presumably) still has credits.

      Say I get a bus pas with ID 1000. I use it up, then reprogram it to ID 1500. Hopefully someone buys ID 1500, activates it, and I can drain their credits with my pass.

    8. Re:Changing the Strip by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Several years ago NYC cops arrested guys who were duplicating subway passes (sorry couldn't find links). These passes look like thin credit cards with a magnetic strip. A monthly pass is now around $80. It was reportedly a simple duplication so users of these cards were questioned when cards with same IDs were used almost simultaneously at different subway stations.

      It might not be to difficult to edit data on cards but a decent system should store sensitive information like available credit in a database instead of a card.

    9. Re:Changing the Strip by MrSellout · · Score: 1

      Funny, my school allows students (well, anyone) to put up to $50 at a time onto a magnetic strip card to be used in vending machines and even the bookstore. They make it pretty clear that the cash value is stored on the card itself. I have no clue how this can be secure--or how they can possibly think it is secure.

    10. Re:Changing the Strip by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It's secure because the do periodic audits. The see that machine X is routinely getting ripped off on Friday nights with fake cards/balances. The video camera/security snoop to see who does it the next time it happens. Thief is caught.

      This is *not* the best way to do it, but it does catch the very worst (and stupid) of offenders.

    11. Re:Changing the Strip by MrSellout · · Score: 1

      How do they determine whether it's a fake balance or not? And considering there are around 100 seperate areas with vending machines on this campus, I just don't see this as very effective. In the end, I just don't see any real benefit to these cards over cash.

    12. Re:Changing the Strip by sahonen · · Score: 1

      Are you a student at the University of Minnesota?

      I'm assuming that along with the balance on the card some kind of unique identifier is stored and the machines keep records of transactions. The machines don't have to call home to do a transaction, but they can download transaction records every once and a while and figure out that you didn't actually put $50 on your card anywhere.

      --
      Make me a friend and I'll mod you up
    13. Re:Changing the Strip by CAIMLAS · · Score: 1

      Well, look at it this way.

      It's a method that parents can use to "enforce" what their children can spend the parents' money on.

      South Dakota State uses these cards (I don't recall the company), and they are accepted by a couple area merchants - food service, mainly. There's essentially two ballances on them: one for cafeteria food, and one for "flex", which covers those merchants, the campus snack shop, vending machines, etc.

      These cards are also your campus ID, and are used at the bookstore as well (not sure for what reason that would be; Big Brother tracking, probably).

      The benefit to the school is a large lump of float money which they can use at their disposal. Aside from the money they've got sitting around for most of a semester for lunch money/mandatory cafeteria "fines" (as it's required that all SDSU students, either sophmore or freshmen, live in dorms - which has a mandatory cafeteria account. bloody fascists.) They can use this considerable sum for investment and what have you to increase their wealth at the cost of poor students and tax payers.

      Consider: A campus with a mere 9,000 students, with your average student having a carry balance of about $20 for most of the semester. (I think that's what I heard as the running statistic at SDSU). This gives the school about 4 months to use $180,000 as they see fit. At SDSU, it wasn't uncommon for students to have several hundred dollars of "float" money left over at the end of the semester which they'd then blow at the snack shop, etc. over a period of the last couple weeks, and people commonly put as much as $800 in their cards at the begging of the year.

      And finally, they -are- convenient for the students. I was at SDSU for about two semesters and I frequently ran into situations where I would want a soda, snack, etc. and didn't have any cash on me - I was bloody poor. But I did have the "you must give us your money" ammount from living in the dorms the first semester still well into the 2nd semester (it carried over), so I was able to get a soda and a bag of chips here or there when "needed".

      --
      ~/ssh slashdot.org ssh: connect to host slashdot.org port 22: too many beers
    14. Re:Changing the Strip by MrSellout · · Score: 1

      Yes, I am.
      Of course, every time they cancel your unique identifier you could buy a new card ($1), put $20 on it, and clone it. Although I suppose that with sufficient auditing they could make it enough of a pain that it really isn't worth it for the thief. I mean, how much can you really spend at vending machines?

    15. Re:Changing the Strip by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Pretty low? like one in 9999?

    16. Re:Changing the Strip by sahonen · · Score: 1

      I'm not really thinking about cancelling the unique ID. I'm thinking more like tracing the ID to your U Card and busting your ass. Rewriting the strip with a magnetic writer just seems too easy for them not to have a way to catch it. I'd rather sneak a thermos into UDS.

      --
      Make me a friend and I'll mod you up
    17. Re:Changing the Strip by Lil-Bondy · · Score: 0

      my brother made his own reader/writer, using parts from old tape players, i dont know where he found the information for it or what, but theres no need to pay $200 for it, not when you could buy a $20 radio and make it yourself

      --
      Anyone who is capable of getting themselves made President should on no account be allowed to do the job. - HHGTTG
    18. Re:Changing the Strip by MrSellout · · Score: 1

      The problem is that a U Card is not required. All the cash value adding machines allow you to buy a $0 balance 'visitor card' for $1, these would seem impossible to track.

    19. Re:Changing the Strip by Kiryat+Malachi · · Score: 1

      It isn't secure. They're already broken, and there were quite definitely people on campus who can "charge" a card when I was there.

      That's why U of M disabled their smartcard system in favor of one that "phones home".

      --

      ---
      Mod me down, you fucking twits. Go ahead. I dare you.
      (I read with sigs off.)
    20. Re:Changing the Strip by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It was done to BART cards long ago. A competitor to the Winning Bidder challenged Caltech students to demonstrate how easily the magnetic card system could be spoofed. The winning solution relied on rubber bands, a blank card, and heat. No electrons ever changed hands (though some did aquire new spins). Have they given up and gone to vending machine turnstiles yet?

    21. Re:Changing the Strip by drew · · Score: 1

      true, but you have to hope you can convert it to a number that has credits left on it. (or, if you are lucky, you could figure out the id number for one of the monthly passes)

      this assumes that the agency issuing the cards uses sequential id's, and doesn't make use of "trap" id's, unissued id's that indicate to the machine/person/whomever handling the cards that any card with that id should be confiscated and not returned to the customer.

      --
      If I don't put anything here, will anyone recognize me anymore?
  25. There are some things... by eno2001 · · Score: 1, Funny

    ...that should remain secret from you. I hope that the Bush admin locks this terrorist in prison and throws away the key. The reason that mag stripes where chosen as a way of encoding the information on your IDs was to keep you from screwing with it. You'd better believe that people who do this kind of thing are up to no good. What possible reason do you have to not trust the authorities who are responsible for access to this information? Business and the Bush administration only have your best interests at heart and just want to keep the entire world safe. I think the problem with people like this guy is that they are too smart for their own good and ask too many questions. When you have an inquisitive person on your hands, you have a dangerous individual on your hands. A lo[tt] of people are complaining that the state of today's educational institutions is bad. I say they are wrong. There is too much access to information and people who are encouraged to think a little too much. If anything, we need some kind of informational quota system to make certain that people with more natural inquisitiveness are limited more strictly from information than people who are less inquisitive. If this can be done, the world will be a safer place. I can't believe that people would applaud the work of a criminal like this. It's disgusting.

    --
    -"...bad old ideas look confusingly fresh when they are packaged as technology" - Jaron Lanier (Digital Maoism on Edge.o
  26. I have an even better project by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    That allows you to read what's stored on all those floppy and hard drives you have at home. For project details and parts just go to newegg.

  27. Dupe! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Informative
  28. Schematics and instructions. by WOV · · Score: 3, Informative

    The new Make magazine has a heavily-photographed and pretty intelligible partslist / walkthrough of building the actual device, as well. http://make.oreilly.com/

    1. Re:Schematics and instructions. by mossmann · · Score: 1

      Yes, the Make presentation is very well done. I just got a box from O'Reilly that was supposed to contain my 5-in-1 cable parts, but it turned out to be full of Billy Hoffman's card reader parts. So I get to try it out tonight before boxing it back up again. Woohoo! (If you're reading, Billy, I hope you don't mind.)

  29. Waay back when I was a youngun by Matey-O · · Score: 4, Funny

    They put a mag strip access lock to the computer lab in college. We were complaining at having to now carry around our student I.D.s to get access to the labs when I found out ALL of my credit cards allowed access to the lab. (Not smart, but hey, this was 1989)

    Turns out the Lab assistant that installed the lock thought it'd be cool if any card he pulled out of his wallet would open the door. But the local bank's first 9 digits on the mag strip was the same for ALL cards they issued.

    --
    "Draco dormiens nunquam titillandus."
    1. Re:Waay back when I was a youngun by g0at · · Score: 4, Interesting

      This makes me think of the after-hours door-entry things at bank ATMs, where you have to insert a card in order to unlock the door to the vestibule where the ATM is. Invariably, any such door I've tried will respond to any magnetic card at all.

      What is the point of these? Obviously not security. I suppose it must be to keep homeless people out, since they are least likely to carry any kind of magnetic card.

      -b

    2. Re:Waay back when I was a youngun by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0


      No banks around here have those anymore.

      Anyway, it was probably illusion of security in the early days of ATMS -- I could see that 20+ years ago, the average bank customer could be worried about people getting access to an ATM even if they don't have a card.

    3. Re:Waay back when I was a youngun by atomic_toaster · · Score: 2, Insightful

      ...after-hours door-entry things at bank ATMs... Invariably, any such door I've tried will respond to any magnetic card at all. What is the point of these?

      Especially since most people will be polite and hold the door open for someone behind them... It doesn't even keep homeless people from sheltering in the ATM vestibule, because they just have to wait for someone to go in the door and then slip into the vestibule before the door closes. All the swipe-card locks on ATM vestibules do is make it more annoying to get into the building in the winter, when it means that you have to take your gloves off in the freezing cold to get that stupid card out of your wallet. Yeesh.

    4. Re:Waay back when I was a youngun by idiot900 · · Score: 1

      Any magnetic card, or just any credit/debit/ATM card?

      I'd imagine this is done so that they can record your card number, so that if you do go on to commit a crime, they'd know who you are. Of course, you could also have stolen somebody's card, but it even that's better than nothing.

    5. Re:Waay back when I was a youngun by g0at · · Score: 1

      Interesting... but what crime would you commit that wouldn't involve also using the card in the ATM? Vandalism or mugging I suppose, but then, you'd be stupid to use the card to unlock the door.

      I think I've tried these with e.g. my Ontario health card, driver's licence and various other cards, but not recently. Next time I need cash I'll try. :)

      -b

    6. Re:Waay back when I was a youngun by piltdownman84 · · Score: 1

      The one of these that I use works with any card. I doesn't even have to be magnetic, as I've use a card w/o a stripe to get in. My guess is its just the allusion of safety, or it slows down whoever is opening the door enough for the video camera to get a good look at them.

    7. Re:Waay back when I was a youngun by fishbowl · · Score: 1


      "Turns out the Lab assistant that installed the lock thought it'd be cool if any card he pulled out of his wallet would open the door."

      How in the hell did they get him to admit that?

      --
      -fb Everything not expressly forbidden is now mandatory.
    8. Re:Waay back when I was a youngun by hwyengr · · Score: 1, Funny

      Washington Mutual ATM vestibules are opened by any card in my wallet, except my Washington Mutual ATM card.

    9. Re:Waay back when I was a youngun by SkjeggApe · · Score: 1

      They had a mag card reader like this at my college's computer room, except their problem was that they forgot to hoook it up to the button for handicapped people, so just hitting that would not only unlock the door, but open it for you as well..

    10. Re:Waay back when I was a youngun by dave420 · · Score: 1

      If you take a big shit in there, they have some data to track you down? That's the only thing I can think of...

    11. Re:Waay back when I was a youngun by AndrewRUK · · Score: 1

      I'd say they do provide some security benefits, simply by putting the ATMs inside, which means it will be well lit, have better CCTV coverage, and you're likly to be more aware of anyone trying to look over your shoulder for your PIN. And, of course, if the weather outside is nasty, bank customers will appreciate a bit of shelter while they're using the ATMs.

    12. Re:Waay back when I was a youngun by g0at · · Score: 1

      Sure, I fully agree with you. But I wasn't talking about the security benefit of the vestibule, but of the non-discriminating magnetic card lock on its entrance (which, by its nature, does not provide much restriction on entry).

      -b

    13. Re:Waay back when I was a youngun by AndrewRUK · · Score: 1

      Fair point. The only times I've seen banks with the ATMs inside, they've had a (probably useless) card reader on the door.

    14. Re:Waay back when I was a youngun by sr180 · · Score: 1
      The local bank I use, any card with a magnetic stripe works. Ive tried ones without magnetic stripes but they dont work.

      However, You only have to insert a card with a magnetic stripe approximately half way in for the door to open.

      --
      In Soviet Russia the insensitive clod is YOU!
    15. Re:Waay back when I was a youngun by Bill+Walker · · Score: 1

      At Chase Manhattan it has to be a valid banking card (CIRRUS or something, I suppose). Our UNI id cards, which could optionally function as ATM cards as well (but only if you chose hated Citibank), would work if you had a bank account linked up, but not if you were just using it for university stuff.

      --
      Please, for the love of God, no more car analogies.
    16. Re:Waay back when I was a youngun by Lord+Omlette · · Score: 1
      I suppose it must be to keep homeless people out
      If you've ever been to Hoboken, NJ (right across the river from Manhattan), you'd know that this sure as hell doesn't work.
      --
      [o]_O
    17. Re:Waay back when I was a youngun by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      My idea: if someone were to use "any magnetic card" to enter and break into the ATM, they could track him down by checking what the last cards scanned were.

      There was a situation on the news some months ago, in which people found out that at certain gas stations, they could scan their drivers' licenses instead of a credit card, and get free gas. Unfortunately for them, when the computer scanned the drivers' licenses, it copied the license number. They received friendly police visits.

      Look down towards the bottom

  30. Contents of drivers license barcode by lmsig · · Score: 3, Informative

    Nothing exciting is in that barcode; just what is on the front of your license, at least in new york state where I tried it. I had written a PDF417 barcode reader a couple years back and we used the back of our licenses as some test data just to see. It is literally just everything from the front side (name, address, height, wieght, etc). The interesting stuff will be in the database that this info is the key for!

    --
    .plan!! what plan?
  31. PayByTouch by plover · · Score: 5, Informative
    There are companies offering just that. We looked at PayByTouch, a company that offers a "digital wallet" that you can access at participating retailers. As a customer, you go to a kiosk, register your fingerprint, and swipe the cards you want to store in the "wallet". At the point of purchase, you key your phone number and touch the fingerprint reader, and the PIN pad brings up your wallet where you can scroll through your cards and select the one you want for this transaction.

    According to PayByTouch, the phone number is used as an index to speed fingerprint matching. The PBT computer located at the point of sale device turns the fingerprint data into a hash on the spot prior to sending the request over the network, so the "clear" fingerprint isn't stored or sent anywhere.

    I personally thought customers would find "fingerprinting" to be too Big-Brotherish, but many pilot customers preferred the idea of using a fingerprint over carrying a wallet full of credit cards and shopper loyalty cards. But at the time we looked at them, Visa refused to certify them as being as secure as a mag stripe, so the idea died around here.

    --
    John
    1. Re:PayByTouch by 100lbHand · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Cute young lady walks up to you.
      "Oh hi, your cute.
      Can I get your pone number?
      Great, hold my drink while I write it down."
      She goes home pulls your print from the cup, makes a false fingertip.
      You get cleaned out.

      --
      "I'm not high, just stupid" --JY
    2. Re:PayByTouch by Ryosen · · Score: 1

      That's find just as long as I still get to wake up with my kidneys....

      --

      Ryosen
      One man's "Troll, +1" is another man's "Insightful, +1".
    3. Re:PayByTouch by plover · · Score: 1
      That's among the reasons we "looked" at their fingerprinting technology, instead of "bought" it. I think the Visa thumbs-down probably had more to do with it, however. That, plus the per-workstation cost would have been quite high.

      These guys claim to have a good liveness detector in their pad. But they're still $100 dollar pads, not the $1000 ones the FBI uses, which means that they could be that much less secure.

      They also described their software as storing and transmitting "a third" of your fingerprint, whatever that means.

      --
      John
    4. Re:PayByTouch by sowth · · Score: 1

      If those people were not worried about "shopper loyalty" cards which are used to keep track of everything they purchase and store it in some database, then they probably would not be worried about fingerprints either...

    5. Re:PayByTouch by Trejkaz · · Score: 1

      Fingerprint and signature would be good enough, I would think. Even with both of these at the same time, you still save carrying around all the plastic.

      --
      Karma: It's all a bunch of tree-huggin' hippy crap!
  32. how the program works by Deanalator · · Score: 0

    written on what appears to be a napkin...

  33. Careful what you wish for by Gruneun · · Score: 1

    I generally agree, but one of the common assignments for GUI development classes is to redesign an ATM. You would be amazed at the horrible interfaces that reasonably intelligent people can come up with and they all seem to keep the language selection. I'm thankful it's the only really irritating feature. Plus, the magnetic stripes have a fairly limited character count and getting banks to agree on a standard format would be a nightmare, so any customization would only work at one of your branches.

    I'm waiting for the short-range, wireless solution that allows a consistent, custom interface on my phone, which can communicate with any nearby ATM. Choose your language once, make some shortcuts for common transactions, then key in transactions (safely) from your car and pass your phone over the cash slot to dispense. It has the added bonus of never having to touch those funk-nasty keypads.

    1. Re:Careful what you wish for by ultranova · · Score: 1

      I'm waiting for the short-range, wireless solution that allows a consistent, custom interface on my phone, which can communicate with any nearby ATM. Choose your language once, make some shortcuts for common transactions, then key in transactions (safely) from your car and pass your phone over the cash slot to dispense. It has the added bonus of never having to touch those funk-nasty keypads.

      Bad idea. Here's why:

      1. You can easily listen in to the communications between the phone and ATM. Yes, one can crypt them, but this requires a more complex phone, which makes it more vulnerable to the next vulnerability.
      2. Viruses. There's already some mobile viruses on the wild; imagine a virus that sits in your phone, waits until you pass near an ATM, and when you do, quietly transfers all your money to the Mafia's account.
      --

      Forget magic. Any technology distinguishable from divine power is insufficiently advanced.

  34. "scooper" -card (tm) by newr00tic · · Score: 0

    What if (tm) someone made a card that looked just like a bona-fide card, _only_ that this 'magic' card could 'scoop up' the magnetic -debris (if any; I'm talking way out of line here) that normal cards leave behind in the readers; I'm sure something must be torn off, (cards wear to the render of uselessness, due to 'hard usage',) and among that "something", there's bound to be magnetic information, or? ...

    Well let's say this 'scooper card' stores all the random magnetism stuck to the card-reader -slot, and the 'magician' goes home to sort out the coherent bits, -if any-, to use them for fraudalent endaevours.. --Could something along these lines technically happen? ... I mean, if the scooper card had some sort of magnet, or absorbator, whatever ..?

    --
    A horse can't be sick, you know, even if he wants to.
    1. Re:"scooper" -card (tm) by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      ...Everyone in this room is dumber for having listened to it. I award you no points, and may God have mercy on your soul.

    2. Re:"scooper" -card (tm) by sbma44 · · Score: 1

      alright, my uncharitable answer got modded down, and it was fairly mean. So here's an actual explanation, by way of analogy.

      Imagine a xerox machine instead of your card reader. Lots of sheets of paper go through there. From time to time, a small section of paper or some bits of toner might flake off of the sheets going through. This isn't likely to happen very much, and the pieces are likely to be miniscule, but the same can be said for the magnetic reader.

      Could you open up the xerox machine, retrieve those bits and reconstruct useful information about the texts that had gone through the machine? Almost certainly not. Same thing with your hypothetical scenario.

      If you want to worry about your card getting stolen, restaurants are the place to worry. Wait staff make very little money and can easily run your card through a hand held, battery-powered card reader that collects numbers. Usually they'd be paid to do this by somebody else. Fake ATMs are also a concern.

  35. can you read these remotely? by peter303 · · Score: 1

    I dont think you can read the strips without being more than a couple millimeters away.
    However I heard of a of scam to read the the RFIDs in car key and car opener devices. These can be read a foot or two away (e.g. in elevator or mall). Its been shown that a modest computation can break the car entry security. So do we need foil-lined wallets, pockets, and purses?

  36. proof of national ID? by gothzilla · · Score: 1

    On the screenshots page http://stripesnoop.sourceforge.net/screenshots.htm l there's a screenshot that has the text "Possibly a: "AAMVA Compliant North American Driver's License"
    then below that "Issuing Territory: California"
    It also says the standard is used in some parts of Canada as well. Where's my tin foil hat?

    1. Re:proof of national ID? by curtisk · · Score: 1
      It also says the standard is used in some parts of Canada as well. Where's my tin foil hat?

      Huh, what do you mean? Canada is part of North America last time I checked, and is a member of AAMVA and have been for a long time.

      --

      Sehr geehrter Toilettenbenutzer!

    2. Re:proof of national ID? by Kuro-Bishounen · · Score: 1

      What we need more than the specs for a card reader is the Open Source Specs for tinfoil hats! Dammit, I need my hat upgrading!

      --
      Evil Space Monkeys could be stealing YOUR bandwidth!
    3. Re:proof of national ID? by sexybomber · · Score: 1

      Paranoid as I am, I'm not that worried. I think whatever standard the AAMVA sets is because of liquor laws, if memory serves. Something about your birthdate being universally readable.

      Whatever it is, my New York license doesn't comply with it, because it doesn't have a magnetic stripe at all! It does, however, have an interesting superbarcode on the bottom (think a block of about twenty lines of 1s and 0s)

      I think you could almost put more information in the superbarcode than you could on a magstripe. Anybody know how much info you can fit on a stripe?

    4. Re:proof of national ID? by curtisk · · Score: 1

      AAMVA has standards for both mag-stripes and barcodes(PDF-417), in most cases you can scan your barcoded license with a regular ol' com port barcode scanner(that supports 2D barcodes like PDF-417) and get most of the data in human readable form, some jurisdictions encrypt certain fields.

      --

      Sehr geehrter Toilettenbenutzer!

    5. Re:proof of national ID? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
  37. The proper place for this information...l by wowbagger · · Score: 3, Insightful

    The proper place for information like language preference is not on the card, but rather in the bank's database that the ATM accesses.

    Ideally, when the card is first inserted the ATM will ask for non-secure data from the bank - things like language pref and such. If the card is NOT valid, the bank could send back default data (to prevent using that to ease checking of forged cards).

    By seperating the prefs from the card, you can update the card without losing the prefs.

    (Slashbots: Notice that the word is losing, not loosing!)

    1. Re:The proper place for this information...l by nachoboy · · Score: 1

      By seperating the prefs from the card, you can update the card without losing the prefs.

      (Slashbots: Notice that the word is losing, not loosing!)


      (Notice that the word is separating, not seperating!)

      Sorry, couldn't resist, seperate is my peeve.

    2. Re:The proper place for this information...l by wowbagger · · Score: 1

      Thanks for the catch - I do wish Mozilla would get a spell checker for edit dialogs within a web submit form.

      Though that would not help the losing/loosing issue....

  38. Truth does not matter by jimbro2k · · Score: 2, Insightful

    We can still sue you for possible DMCA violations and watch you impoverish yourself trying to defend yourself. It is the (not-so-new) common strategy to shut people up.
    Whether or not this is an actual DMCA violation does not matter.

    --
    There is not nearly enough love in the world, but there is far too much trust.
  39. Building the reader is in Make by neile · · Score: 2, Interesting

    The first issue of Make had a whole article, with parts list and clear directions, on how to attach a card reader to your computer and use the Stripe Snoop software to read off the information.

  40. Not encrypted by dpilot · · Score: 1

    Aah, but it IS encrypted - with double-rot-13.

    --
    The living have better things to do than to continue hating the dead.
  41. my bank *does* do this by sbma44 · · Score: 4, Informative
    Bank of America has rolled out new color touchscreen ATMs in the DC/Metro area that retrieve user preferences based on the inserted card. You have to set them the first time, of course, but then it'll pull it up automatically. In addition to language choice, it also tracks whether you want receipts (and for which transactions) and some other preferences (how much money you want when you hit "fast cash").

    It's a decent system, but it's sloooow compared to the old monochrome monitors. And worse: the biggest problem is the touchscreens break all the time.

    Still, the general idea seems right. Keeping the GUID on the card is the right idea.

    1. Re:my bank *does* do this by rnelsonee · · Score: 1
      I'm glad to hear that. I live a little north of DC, and I get mad every time I use my Bank of America ATM because I'm thinking they should keep track of this stuff.

      The touchscreens still suck though. Not only do the break all the time (the sensors are already worn down in some parts, so you have to mash the screen), but as a tall person using a screen 4' off the ground, I always miss the button that's displayed and hit the one above it. Stupid.

    2. Re:my bank *does* do this by billh · · Score: 1
      I know this is off topic, but why are you still with Bank of America? They take money from you every chance they get, and about the only thing they have going for them are ATMs all over the place.

      Bank of America seriously pissed me off when they held a $10,000 deposit without notifying me. Never mind that this was an insurance payoff for a totalled vehicle. When I tried to use the money to buy something else, it wasn't there. They told me that the deposit looked suspicious.

      I switched to a credit union (actually a few of them) a few years back, and I couldn't be happier. They even pay for the ATM fees when I go somewhere else, and they pay interest on checking accounts.

      /former Sovran / NationsBank / BoA customer

    3. Re:my bank *does* do this by yincrash · · Score: 0

      there is a touchscreen ATM in Baker Hall of carnegie mellon that I know is a Diebold that didn't just break. It showed everybody that it was running on top of Windows XP and someone got windows media player running on it.

  42. the technical answer by sbma44 · · Score: 0
    Could something along these lines technically happen?

    No.

  43. pay to play (but not that much) by jdw242b · · Score: 3, Informative
    for the record, less expensive readers are available.
    I used one to snoop my cards and found some interesting information...

    Try this link: http://www.posguys.com/category.asp?catID=4

    --
    There are three truths: my truth, your truth, and the truth. - Chinese proverb
  44. Snore.... by feloneous+cat · · Score: 2, Informative

    I did this over six years ago... A lot of the info was on the net then and it is incredibly dull how little info is really stored. Worse, Japanese credit cards have a hidden stripe on the FRONT of the card (just in case you wanted to know). You can get a mag-stripe reader for these pretty easily. Personally, I still think RFID is more interesting...

    --
    IANAL, but I've seen actors play them on TV
  45. University IDs by langelgjm · · Score: 5, Interesting

    I'm an undergrad student in the University of Maryland system. I managed to write some simple C and Perl programs a while back for a reader I obtained, and ran quite a few cards through them. I found that our university issued ID cards have our social security numbers stored on them, unencrypted. A friend filed some public information request acts requesting to know if the university stored data such as the time and locations of card swipes, and if that data was attached to the student in any way. After initially denying this, the university eventually admitted that they do store data, and sent the guy a copy of his records, which indicate to the second when and where he swiped his card, in addition to when he went to the gym, how much he bought at the dining halls, etc. So much for privacy. I'm no engineer or programmer, and I was able to do this fairly easily; it can't be that hard to build an intercept and install it within a reader that's attached to a door, and voila - hundreds of SSNs. We're trying to contact some people in the school media and administration and have something done.

    --
    "Anyone who [rips a CD] is probably engaging in copyright infringement." - David O. Carson
    1. Re:University IDs by Reignking · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Even worse: the University of South Carolina had your SSN in plain site on their ID cards. Oh wait, that's if you could crack the system! It was XssnXX on mine.

      --
      One man's Funny is another man's Offtopic.
    2. Re:University IDs by CarrionBird · · Score: 1
      Been that way for years too. My ancient pre-magstripe ID has it right on there.

      They use the SSN for everything there.

      --
      Free Mac Mini Yeah, it's
    3. Re:University IDs by whovian · · Score: 2, Insightful

      the university eventually admitted that they do store data, and sent the guy a copy of his records, which indicate to the second when and where he swiped his card, in addition to when he went to the gym, how much he bought at the dining halls, etc. So much for privacy. ... We're trying to contact some people in the school media and administration and have something done.

      Have you asked whether they will assign you a new non-SSN ID at your request?

      Kudos for taking the noble approach. In this day and age, I would be tempted to dangle this in front of national media and suggest how victim identity theft is, well, a kind of internal terrorism.

      I'm serious about this because it seems everything *else* is being done to protect people from harm from others as well as themselves and to protect corporations/businesses from people. Why does it seem that government stops short here? Is it to allow businesses to sell "protection services" for your private perosnal info?

      --
      To-do List: Receive telemarketing call during a tornado warning. Check.
    4. Re:University IDs by gatkinso · · Score: 1

      The same with CareFirst medical insurance cards.

      --
      I am very small, utmostly microscopic.
    5. Re:University IDs by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
      This doesn't surprise me. They used to print the SSN on the card itself -- not just on the mag stripe.

      I went to UMD for a semester for a programming class. When getting my student ID, I was shocked that they wanted to print my SSN on the card as the card's ID.

      Asking to use an alternate ID instead of SSN caused the folks there to first get confused, then to send me to another line. At the other table, they added my name and gave me my alternate number, saying the card would be sent out in the next week or so.

      When it arrived, UMD ignored the alternate number and stamped my SSN on the card.

    6. Re:University IDs by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      We're trying to contact some people in the school media and administration and have something done.

      Do it anonymously. You don't want to be blacklisted...or worse.

    7. Re:University IDs by dave420 · · Score: 4, Insightful
      What do you mean privacy? Someone could follow you around, quite legally, and make a note of ALL of that information. That's just as legal.

      I'm not being weird here, but if you're in public you don't have a right to privacy. That's why it's called public and not private.

      Fair enough if they were spying in your private residence or something, but seeing when you go into a room is nothing. Especially considering it's their university, so like you in your house, can do anything that doesn't violate a law. As they violated no laws, it's all cool.

    8. Re:University IDs by langelgjm · · Score: 1

      I'm not being weird here, but if you're in public you don't have a right to privacy. That's why it's called public and not private.

      I'm familiar with the 'no expectation of privacy in a public place' concept, but just as some disagree that the police ought to be able to place a GPS tracking device on your vehicle with a warrant, there comes a point where the tracking becomes too intrusive. Also, residence halls are limited to residents, much like an apartment building. I'm not sure how the law works regarding this, but we pay room and board on campus and have certain rights - for example, while we have to answer our door if a resident assistant comes knocking, we are not required to let them into our room.

      A big issue is the fact that in responding to our public information requests, they claimed they had no information on policies regarding access to the log data - basically, this means they have no (legal) record of who can see where we go and when. I find that a bit odd. I'm sure a health insurance company would like to get a look at how often students visit the dining hall versus the gym...

      --
      "Anyone who [rips a CD] is probably engaging in copyright infringement." - David O. Carson
    9. Re:University IDs by dave420 · · Score: 1
      If you're worried about the company selling the data, complain about that. They're well within their rights to collect it. And as for the dorms, they are the university's dorms. They have the final word. The rights they have given you have been formally granted by the university, and are not exact replicas of the rights granted to people in houses owned by themselves.

      I get miffed when I see people harking on about people traking them in public. If you don't want anyone to know where you are, don't go into the public. That's the only way. Once you enter the public arena, you are visible to the rest of the world, and hence, trackable. I'm not having a go at you, it just seems some people have excessive views on what privacy should be afforded them.

    10. Re:University IDs by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
      Do it anonymously. You don't want to be blacklisted...or worse.

      Better yet, ask a professor interested in privacy issues for help. Tenure provides a substantial degree of protection against reprisal. Check the political science department-- it's their field, after all, so they'll have some interest... although perhaps mostly an academic one. =)

  46. Not impressed yet. by pklong · · Score: 1

    I've seen all of the data on my UK bank cards, and to be honest it's not all the interesting or unexpected. What I'd relly like to know is what's stored in the chip.

    --

    Philip

    Signatures are broken

  47. Threni? Meet Google. Google? This is Threni! by aendeuryu · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Feel free to go google DMCA abuse. There's about 100,000 hits, and you might find one or two in there that might lead you to understand WHY it's reasonable to think that a corporation might go after this, using the DMCA as a weapon, because they've done it before.

    The FatWallet one is particularly educational. I invite you to go read it. It's even less applicable to the DMCA than card-stripe reading, and it happened anyway.

    1. Re:Threni? Meet Google. Google? This is Threni! by Threni · · Score: 1

      I can see some links to old news about the beginnings of possible court cases. How did they turn out in the end?

    2. Re:Threni? Meet Google. Google? This is Threni! by iminplaya · · Score: 1

      In case you're insterested, it might be more accurate to enclose DMCA abuse in quotation marks. It brings it down to about 8,600. Take out Lexmark, and it's down to 391. Aside from that, it's not being widely reported, unfortunately. It won't be an election issue for some time.

      --
      What?
  48. Smart Chip? by chrisbeatty · · Score: 0

    I know some Europeans have been using chips on cards for some time now & they're rolling it out here in the UK as well now.
    http://www.chipandpin.co.uk/

    Many shops I go into now don't even swipe the card, just slot it in the reader. Might there be a plan to eliminate using the mag stripe for the sensitive data (or even having one at all) in the longer term?? Obviously the ATM's...etc will need updating first

    I've had a couple of dozy shop staff put my card over the antitheft magnet under the counter, there's an immediate benefit.

    1. Re:Smart Chip? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      We have indeed. Often we don't even need to hand them the card. The keypad for entering the PIN has a slot for reading it. Lord only knows what's stored in the chip though. I've looked it up on the Internet before (the standard is called EMV) but the only link with some specs was fairly incomprehensible and marked confidential in the footer. Gotta love Google for revealing confidential bank documents.

  49. In Europe the ATMs inform YOU! by evilandi · · Score: 4, Interesting
    jgbishop: every time I go to my bank's ATM, I have to indicate whether I want to do business in English or Spanish. Shouldn't that information be on the card?

    In Europe it is quite common for the ATMs to automatically work out what language you speak, and automatically present you with an interface in that language.

    This works solely by the ATM recognising which bank your card is from. For instance, mine is Barclays, which the ATM knows is a UK bank, so many ATMs in France present me with an English interface by default. I would strongly expect all European ATMs with this ability to present all US cardholders with an English language by default (Spanish-speaking US citizens aren't common tourists).

    However this breaks when your country speaks more than one language. I'd expect all ATMs to be very confused about which language a Swiss cardholder prefers; Switzerland has German, French and regional languages as official languages. Belgians probably get a choice of Dutch or French too.

    There are also regional variations. For example, when using my Barclays ATM card in Wales [1], I sometimes get the option for the interface in Welsh or English, because Barclays customers in Wales might prefer Welsh over English (for instance, my uncle prefers Welsh for conversing about money and family, but English for talking about science and technology).

    So it can be done, but they don't dial back to HQ for your individual preference- the ATMs generally only recognise the default language of your bank. If your bank speaks both Spanish and English, then most ATMs aren't going to know any better.

    [1] Wales and England are Kingdoms [2] of the United Kingdom in the same way that California and Texas are States of the United States. The UK isn't just England, any more than the US is just California.

    [2] Actually, Wales is a Principality (ruled by a Prince/Princess, not a King/Queen), not a Kingdom, but you get the idea.

    --
    Andrew Oakley - www.aoakley.com
    1. Re:In Europe the ATMs inform YOU! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
      Wales is a Principality (ruled by a Prince/Princess, not a King/Queen)

      Is this person just a figure head or is Wales seriously a monarchy / dictatorship? This is very different from states like Texas and California in the U.S. I was under the impression that all of the UK was under some sort of representative government.

    2. Re:In Europe the ATMs inform YOU! by evilandi · · Score: 1
      AC: Is this person just a figure head or is Wales seriously a monarchy / dictatorship?

      Figurehead only. CF. Constitutional Monarchy

      As if anyone could take orders from Prince Charles! (Coffee on monitor moment, there!)

      Traditionally in the UK, the King/Queen rules England and more recently also Scotland, and then their eldest son who is due to become the next King gets to rule Wales, hence Prince Charles is currently the Prince of Wales. Northern Ireland is just somewhere we nicked off someone else, so like Canada or Australia it doesn't have it's own King/Queen.

      --
      Andrew Oakley - www.aoakley.com
    3. Re:In Europe the ATMs inform YOU! by dago · · Score: 1

      For BE/CH, the cards stores the language preference and display the correct one in "home country" . That's separated for the "shop view" and "customer view" meaning that when I shop here, the sale guy see its interface in German and I've got the terminal in French, both saying same messages.

      When abroad, the ATM obviously first ask "Which language ?" but this isn't limited to the official ones, I've got a fair choice of french, german, spanish, italian, ...

      And, I think it's the same for my belgian cards, altough it's a long time I used them.

      --
      #include "coucou.h"
    4. Re:In Europe the ATMs inform YOU! by clarkcox3 · · Score: 1
      [1] Wales and England are Kingdoms [2] of the United Kingdom in the same way that California and Texas are States of the United States. The UK isn't just England, any more than the US is just California.

      Let me be the first to say: "Well duuuuh!". Next, you're going to tell us that Northern Ireland is its own country.

      (I kid. That footnote just stood out as completely redundant as well as irrelevant to your discussion of ATMs)

      --
      There are no tiger attacks in my area and it's all because this rock I'm holding keeps the tigers away.
    5. Re:In Europe the ATMs inform YOU! by evilandi · · Score: 1

      You wouldn't believe the number of Americans who get confused when I say I'm from the English/Welsh border. Many of them seem to believe that the entire island of Great Britain is just England, and that Scotland and Ireland share a land border... and most of them haven't even heard of Wales (which, coming from Shropshire, is rather annoying seeing as the whole used-to-be-part-of-Wales and the-only-bit-of-England-that-speaks-Welsh thing forms a major part of our heritage).

      --
      Andrew Oakley - www.aoakley.com
    6. Re:In Europe the ATMs inform YOU! by DaddyDonMynack · · Score: 1

      Believe me, as an American mutt of English and Welsh (along with Scottish, Dutch, and German) ancestry, I am not surprised at all. However, curiously, I don't blame our schools for our lack of geographic knowledge - I learned a lot about geography from school. For some reason, people here seem to forget geography rather easily. I think it must be due to the homogenous nature of the U.S., plus its vast size. In Europe, one can drive 800 miles and see more than a few countries. Over here, I can drive 800 miles and I still haven't left Texas.

    7. Re:In Europe the ATMs inform YOU! by atomico · · Score: 1

      In fact, I know that I have inserted the wrong card in my bank's ATM when I get the 'select your language' menu: the four official languages in Spain, plus French, English and German.

      To avoid the incredibly high commission, time to press 'cancel'!

  50. This really isn't anything new... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    mag stripe reader kits have been out for years and years. There have been articles in 2600 in the past decade that covered how to read the mag stripes off of NYC's metrocards for subway systems. At various conferences in the 90s mag stripe kits were given out during presentations and phrack had a few articles dedicated to magstripe readers. Why is this news now, in 2005?

    1. Re:This really isn't anything new... by StankDawg · · Score: 1

      There have been articles in 2600

      yeah, Acidus wrote the most recent one in Summer 2004 issue at http://store.yahoo.com/2600hacker/summer2004.html.

      --
      --- The revolution will be digitized! - http://www.binrev.com/ ---
  51. Wager... by http101 · · Score: 2, Insightful

    I'll give him 2 days before the DMCA guys come knockin' on his dorm-room door.

    --
    -- Game Developers: Stop porting badly-textured games from crappy console systems!
  52. Language preference stored on bank-side by fons · · Score: 3, Informative

    Where I live, the language of preference is stored on the server.

    All ATM's in Belgium can work in 4 langauges, but I never had to choose a language at an ATM. So I suppose the bank knows i want to be served in Dutch.

    When a foreigner uses an ATM in Belgium, he gets to choose a language. (And when I go abroad, I get to choose a language too)

  53. Coding Comminist by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Well, its not because I like Richard Stallman, thats for sure. I don't believe that all code should be Free Software,and think he is pretty much a coding communist

    LOL! I could not have said it better!!!

  54. Guy's not an RMS fan by JackBuckley · · Score: 5, Interesting
    From Deep in TFA (tm):

    Q: Why did you release Stripe Snoop under the GPL?

    A: Well, its not because I like Richard Stallman, thats for sure. I don't believe that all code should be Free Software,and think he is pretty much a coding communist. One of the reasons Stripe Snoop was created was the lack of cheap or quality magstripe software, especially that would run on Linux. I have worked very hard on Stripe Snoop, and the last thing I want are the very companies that have expensive, crappy software from using my code and not contributing code themselves. In this regard the GPL provides the protections I want, even if I disagree with most of the creator's politics.

    Interesting to see a "security expert" (see earlier post--I can't verify this opinion) who thinks RMS is a code communist.

    1. Re:Guy's not an RMS fan by xenocide2 · · Score: 1

      I've said it before, and I'll say it again. I release code under the GPL because I'm greedy. Not for cash, but for more code.

      You can also make a solid argument that RMS is a fascist, as head of the GNU foundation. Apparently all copyright of submitted code is to be handed over to them, and they only accept patches from those select people (basically people who've submitted some legal documents reguarding the copyright, I would assume). The Cathedral vs. The Bazaar by that other wacknut, ESR, decribes in more detail the GNU approach.

      --
      I Browse at +4 Flamebait

      Open Source Sysadmin

    2. Re:Guy's not an RMS fan by rotty · · Score: 1
      Apparently all copyright of submitted code is to be handed over to them, and they only accept patches from those select people (basically people who've submitted some legal documents reguarding the copyright, I would assume).

      That's not exactly true; there quite a few GNU projects that work like you have described, i.e. developers assigning copyright to the FSF, but it is not a requirement. This is from an RMS mail sent to me about what it means to be a GNU project:

      For a program to be GNU software does not require transferring copyright to the FSF; that is a separate question. If you transfer the copyright to the FSF, the FSF will enforce the GPL for the program if someone violates it; if you keep the copyright, enforcement will be up to you.
  55. Like this? by First+Person · · Score: 2, Informative

    I noticed a 3 track reader for $59 from Kanecal.net. This looks like a very quick and cheap approach to data extraction. The advantage of making your own is that you need not limit yourself to cards following the ISO specifications for track positions and character encodings.

    --
    Given one hour to live, the student replied: "I'd spend it with professor FP who can make an hour seem like a lifetime."
  56. What's in Your Wallet? by Skjellifetti · · Score: 3, Informative

    The magnetic stripe standards, of course. The card is a test card I printed while I was building an ID card system for a client. The front lists the track standard and the allowed chars:

    Track 1 (IATA data max. 76 chars):
    !"#$%&'()*+,-./0123456789:;<=>@ABCDEFGHIJKLMNOPQRS TUVWXYZ[\]^ _

    Track2 (ABA data, max 37 chars): 0123456789;;<=>

    Track 3(TTS data, max. 104 chars):
    0123456789:;<=>

    The allowed chars have been encoded onto the stripe on the back.

  57. Is this news?? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Admitted, I didn't RFTS, but what's new? Go buy a simple $30 cardreader and plug it into your serial port. Open a terminal program on the port and swipe the card.
    Most cards are physically encoded according to the ISO standards and the majority of the card data is formattede according to the financial standards (forget the organization name).
    If you can't operate a terminal program, get a reader which works with the keyboard interface and open your favority editor and start swiping.

  58. Magstripe-o-Rama by danger+diabolik · · Score: 1

    Heh...I wrote this article back in 1991: http://www.textfiles.com/hacking/magnet.02 Great to see stuff in this area still popping up. I'll have to check out this software. Been a long time since I played with stripes... -Count Zero

    1. Re:Magstripe-o-Rama by slipnslidemaster · · Score: 0

      Did it ever end up in 2600 magazine?

      --


      "What the hell is an aluminum falcon?"
  59. Golden Age of Hacking by slipnslidemaster · · Score: 0

    I would like to recall reading the article that Count Zero wrote for Phrack when I was tooling around BBS's in the early '90's. It certainly looks familiar.

    Personally, I think that most of the irrational fear of hacking that has invaded the hearts and minds of "normal" people is from that time. Way before the commercialized Internet. I think of this as the Golden Age of hacking. Roughly, from the mid '80's to 1993. Pre-Internet.

    IMO, Hacking experienced a renaissance after the goldrush of the Internet while standards such as SSL were being developed, implemented and refined. While I don't think the irrational fear that users have of hacking was justified during the Golden Age of hacking, it is certainly justified now as company after company is hacked and social security numbers and other assorted personal information are released like pigeons at the Olympic games.

    Anyway back on point, Count Zero's article brought back memories for me.

    --


    "What the hell is an aluminum falcon?"
    1. Re:Golden Age of Hacking by ebrandsberg · · Score: 1

      Ironically enough CountZero posted a link to the article as a comment, and with my ordering was RIGHT below yours. What are the chances of that happening...

    2. Re:Golden Age of Hacking by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Apparently 1 in 1.

      Love,

      Anonymous Coward

  60. New Scams? by bbeebe · · Score: 1

    Step 1: Build your own mag-strip reader that looks like a typical pay-by-cc device.
    Step 2: Setup a stand on the streets of NY
    Step 3: Sell stuff just to get people to swipe CC and steal info.
    Step 4: Profit???

    1. Re:New Scams? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Old scam.

    2. Re:New Scams? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      There are already a ton of scams like this out there. One of the most popluar is the "Card Cleaner". People will gladly swipe their card through these things. All it takes then is a camera trained on the PIN entry device or some covert shoulder surfing and you have not only the PIN but the track data as well.

      Other variations I have seen include vacuum molded card swipes that sit over the actual ATM's car reader and transmit wirelessley to a remote terminal and "brochure holders: with cameras in them trained on the PIN pad.

  61. not that difficult by SpongeBobLinuxPants · · Score: 1, Interesting

    A very simple way is to buy a ps/2 magnetic card reader and up your favorite text editor. Swipe a card and all the info appears. In my state the driver's license has a strip too with lots of information on it.

  62. Magnetic stripes /chip+Pin in by da5idnetlimit.com · · Score: 1

    Chip + Pin is

    --
    It takes 40+ muscles to frown, but only four to extend your arm and bitchslap the motherfucker
  63. Every neighborhood kid's dream by Dark+Coder · · Score: 1

    A lemonade stand with an credit card paypoint.

    I wonder what the kids do with all that info.

  64. What's the big deal, pt 2. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I posted about magnetic developer, and now I can't find that post. I mean come on, you don't even need electronics to read what's on a mag stripe, the density is so low you can do it by eye... Just wipe on some magnetic developer.

  65. Make Magazine by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    FYI, the author probably just received his copy of Make Magazine from O'Reilly. Stripe Snoop is discussed in an article (page 106) about building your own magnetic stripe reader.

  66. I'll tell you how old this is by exp(pi*sqrt(163)) · · Score: 1

    I was demoing mag stripe readers attached to PCs 20 years ago (OK, I exaggerate, I think it was actually 19 years ago). It was entertaining getting volunteers to swipe their cards and 'accidentally' reveal their balances. But even then it was embarassing having French people repeatdely ask me why I was demonstrating such outdated equipment when they'd already been using smart cards for a while.

    --
    Doesn't it make you feel good to know that our freedoms are protected by politicans, lawyers and journalists.
    1. Re:I'll tell you how old this is by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Real simple, the money banks lose because of fraud on mag cards is orders of magnitude less than what it would cost to overhaul the north american systems to smart cards.

    2. Re:I'll tell you how old this is by exp(pi*sqrt(163)) · · Score: 1

      Yes, US banks simply don't care about fraud because it's already built into their accounting and it's only a relatively small figure. Unfortunately the suffering it causes customers is immense and can have repercussions for years. But to the banks it's just another tax deduction.

      --
      Doesn't it make you feel good to know that our freedoms are protected by politicans, lawyers and journalists.
  67. Re:Something more serious... by symbolic · · Score: 1


    How much longer before the beloved DMCA will be expanded to include reading the data from, or deciphering the data on, these cards? All these companies have to do is perform some kind of mild encryption, which they can then claim is some kind of copy protection. They can claim copy protection is necessary to "protect" some kind of innocuous piece of "proprietary" information, and claim that to gain access to it would amount to a violation of trade secrets (or something similar). One more reason NOT to use plastic.

  68. A testament to the strength of GPL by bshroyer · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Is that those who disagree vehemently with the politics of RMS can still see the GPL for what it is: the Right Way to license software, if you want to see it live, grow, and prosper.

    --
    The cure for cancer is coming: Reovirus
  69. Quick, mirror this before... by Money+for+Nothin' · · Score: 1

    ...before the FBI or Secret Service shut down the project.

    That, or one of the various companies who depend on magstripe cards, such as the makers of Blackboard university groupware software (which ties in w/ uni students' ID cards), with whom Acidus has already dealt once...

  70. No it doesn't... by Thu25245 · · Score: 1

    ...at least not here.

    Bank of America has rolled out the same ATMs in my area (color, touch-screen NCR models.) Every time you insert a card, it flashes "Retrieving user customizations" or something like that.

    Indeed, it keeps track of my preferred Fast Cash amount.

    But it still asks me every time whether I would like English or Español. I guess it's hoping I'll learn Spanish someday.

    1. Re:No it doesn't... by sbma44 · · Score: 1

      look through the personalization menus a little bit more. I'm pretty sure it remembers my language preference.

      If you don't configure it to, though, it will keep asking you every time.

  71. the "doctor's parking lot" card reader by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    In the "doctor's parking lot" card reader where I did residency, any object slid into the reader would open the gate. I typically used a tongue depressor since it had slightly better "reach" and I didn't have to get my car so close to the machine.

  72. any one know whats on gameworks cards ? by Joe123456 · · Score: 0

    any one know whats on gameworks cards ?

  73. drives me crazy by CAIMLAS · · Score: 1

    Slightly off topic, but:

    Does it drive anyone else crazy that credit cards do not follow the "somthing you have and something you know" security measure? Even something as simple as a 4-digit code would be sufficient to provide an exponential amount of physical (and digital, if done properly) security.

    --
    ~/ssh slashdot.org ssh: connect to host slashdot.org port 22: too many beers
  74. Re:Something more serious... by shayne321 · · Score: 1

    Wow, that's a lot of FUD. To upgrade "these cards" to use some mild form of encryption, you have to upgrade every card station, gas pump, vending machine, ID verifier, payphone, ATM Machine, and any other magnetic strip reader in the world to support this new form of encryption. For what, to make it illegal for a few nerds with too much time on their hands from viewing data stored on a card in their own possession? Why? The companies shouldn't be storing anything on the card they don't want the consumer to know about, anyway.

    And I'm curious, what are the other reasons NOT to use plastic?

    --
    Today I didn't even have to use my AK; I got to say it was a good day -- Icecube
  75. What am I missing? by hesiod · · Score: 1, Redundant

    I don't understand what is important about this... There have been hundreds of magstripe readers with software out for years, some of which are free (software, obviously, not hardware). And it's not like he had to decrypt the stuff... they're called standards for a reason: it's usually public knowledge how to get the info off of a card.

    1. Re:What am I missing? by hesiod · · Score: 1

      Redundant? Fucking morons. THE STORY IS REDUNDANT ITSELF. I lose mod points because some idiot doesn't know what was posted three years ago, and it wasn't particularly interesting then either.

  76. Missing in the US by rduke15 · · Score: 1

    every time I ... have to indicate whether I want ... English or Spanish. Shouldn't that information be on the card?

    You must be in the US, the same country where it seems that your account is only protected by a user name and a password, leading to all these phishing mails I get with some US bank in the From: header.

    Maybe it's time for American slashdotters to educate their bank managers or go work for their bank.

    (In CH, the language is on the cards, and is used everywhere: ATMs, shops, gas stations, ... It seems all the machines provide at least 4 languages, maybe more for some. I guess it's the same across Europe)

  77. Go on, mod me down for being obvious... by The+Queen · · Score: 1

    ...but doesn't anyone carry CASH anymore?

    --

    The House Between - Original Sci-Fi Series
    1. Re:Go on, mod me down for being obvious... by /dev/trash · · Score: 1

      Why? It has tracking RFIDs too ya know!

  78. This is a subject. Subjects are useless here. by baudbarf · · Score: 1

    In Soviet Union, magnetic stripe snoops YOU!

    --
    You can run but you can't hide, except, apparently, along the Afghan-Pakistani border.
  79. Comment removed by account_deleted · · Score: 1

    Comment removed based on user account deletion

  80. Re:DMCA time? I don't think so... by Hymer · · Score: 0

    You can buy a std. reader that outputs the info from a card as clear text thru a std. keyboard port (via a passthru plug)... directly to wherever your cursor is... it is in common use in Denmark for raeding social security cards. There are nothing specially secret in this.
    This is why banks are switching to chip-cards now... If he have gone into the chip-cards he would have everyone (all banks, police, Interpol and FBI) on his neck...

  81. MagCard reader for keyboard input... by Hymer · · Score: 0

    You may see an example for this kind reader here : PS/2 passthru reader
    Pricetag: $49 for 2-track, $59 for 3-track...

  82. Magnetic Stripe Tip by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    If you don't want the info on a magnetic stripe to be readable, run a magnet over it a few times. That's what I did with the stripe on the back of my drivers' license.