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Microsoft Fails to Comply With EU Requirements
sebFlyte writes "ZDNet is reporting the news that the EU has rejected Microsoft's attempt to wriggle out of it's legal obligation to open up Windows protocols. Microsoft was attempting to bypass the regulation by offering a license totally incompatible with the GPL and which has an absurdly high fee attached. If Microsoft don't come up with a solution that the EU finds acceptable, then they can be fined $5m a day. They've also got some commentary on why Microsoft's behaviour cannot be allowed to stand." The BBC has commentary as well.
$5 million a day? Big deal. Remember in the People vs Larry Flynt how the court fined him $10,000 a day until he complied with their request. $5 million a day is something like 1.8 billion a year. Somehow I think Microsoft would pay that just so that they can remain in control. From their point of view, the value of keeping their protocols closed is worth more than $1.8 billion a year. After all, they have enough cash in the bank to pay that fine for the next
15 years.
The EU would have to charge them $50 million a day before they'd really
care.
Why is it okay for Microsoft to find ways around things? Just because they are big and bad doesn't mean whatever they say, goes. PS, this is not Flamebait.
"I cannot think of any need in childhood as strong as the need for a father's protection." -- Sigmund Freud
"they can be fined $5m a day."
Only 20 years or so then until MS is bankrupt then!
i know there aren't a lot of microsoft supporters/fans around these parts (understatement of the year) ... but isn't $5M a day a bit, oh i dunno, steep?
The little blurb posted makes it sound like the EU ordered MS to create a license that was compatible with the GPL.
Is that the case? I can't find anything suggesting that the EU "named names" by saying the GPL or any specific license.
Anyone have any more insight? Did the EU really order MS to be compatible in this regard with a specific license, or is this just a poorly worded writeup (or is it just me)?
I bet the goverment hopes Microsoft won't comply. They will be muching of MS for years.........
Dashboard Widgets
$1.8 billion a year would be a big boost to free software if an EU agency were to funnel it into free software development. That would anger Microsoft more than increasing the fine would.
I was wondering how Brown was going to afford those bus passes for the elderly. He's a sneaky one, that Chancellor.
This comment was formatted for readability, but I forgot the line break tags
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Microsoft seems to be pretending that they are dealing with a customer, not a goverment. This kind of tactic will shoot them in the foot because they are ignoring the sovereignty of the EU. The EU won't put up with it since it will dilute their power.
The simple truth is that interstellar distances will not fit into the human imagination
- Douglas Adams
If Microsoft don't come up with a solution that the EU finds acceptable, then they can be fined $5m a day.
I have no illusions that Microsoft would actually pay that - it's an exorbitant amount.
The worst punishment the EU can mete out is to bar Microsoft from doing business in participating countries.
If/when that happens, what will European Average Joe consumer reaction be?
The coolest voice ever.
As a reminder, Microsoft makes up to $ 1 billion of profit per month according to Cringely.
$ 5m per day is something like $ 1.8 billion dollars per year. So, it hurts bad, but it's still something Microsoft can afford.
This being said, the EU could also decide to slowly raise the fines over time. That would probably make Microsoft move. I just hope they are not going to introduce Windows XP Starter Edition in Europe... Scratch that, I hope MS is going to do just that, since that would make many europeans switch to Linux.
The right to offend is far more important than the right not to be offended. (Rowan Atkinson)
Does everything have to comply to the GPL ? I really don't understand it and don't see the point either. GPL is just one license, only because someone feels it's not GPL like doesn't make it less valid.
...I would force MS to make Office for Linux, WMP for Linux, IE for Linux.
Anytime we allow them to create an application monopoly on Windows, we allow them to further solidify the monopoly OF Windows.
Why do so many governments show so much patience with a company already convicted of a crime? $5 million a day? Ha! Everyone knows that's not going to hurt Microsoft. Make it $100 million dollars per day and we'll see results.
Judges and governments alike should yell "ENOUGH ALREADY!" and enforce the laws to the limit. Period. This is ridiculous.
I really don't understand. Microsoft created a product. They're under no obligation to release any information about that product to anyone. This is the equivilent of Joe Blow's newfangled Linux distro being released and Joe Blow being sued because he's not providing free tech support. If you don't like it, DON'T USE IT! Nobody is forcing you to use a Microsoft operating system. Yes, they've got some nasty business practices. Freedom of choice: Does it mean nothing anymore?
The US Government should follow suit... no pun intended.
Seriously, in the global economy, trade similarities are going to become more and more important, especially with the US economy taking a very important second place to the EU. They will have to comply to trade. The US is no longer the bully hey once were.
These fines are being levied by the same EU Commission that is forcing through changes in EU patent law designed to allow companies like Microsoft to profit handsomely? Which EU commission shows all signs of being... how can I put this politely... bribed by Microsoft?
Why do I feel we are watching a made-for-public-viewing spectacle that will ultimately result in a trivial fine being paid and the continuation of business as usual?
Sig for sale or rent. One previous user. Inquire within.
Bill Gates may be a British knight, but he is not yet emperor of Europe.
Please someone in the UK tell me that you did not knight Bill Gates.
Really, I know what I'm doing...Ohhhh, look at the shiny buttons!
why?
I checked on Bill's /. poll response. Evidently, he's not interested in Emporor. He's holding out for Kwisatz Haderach.
No, the EU didn't say MS had to GPL any program of their own. The EU just said they had to license their protocols and APIs to everyone, in a non-discriminating way.
Again, this doesn't mean that Windows had to be suddenly GPLed, but that the APIs should be available to _anyone_ who wants to write a program for Windows. Hardly an unreasonable demand, don't you think?
Well, MS basically thought it was smart and slapped a license on those protocols and APIs that basically said you can't share that info with anyone, or show your code to anyone. Basically a legalese way of saying "ok, but you can't use those specs in an OSS program."
Which basically already places a rather unreasonable restriction, when the whole idea in the first place was to make that info available to everyone.
A polar bear is a cartesian bear after a coordinate transform.
While I'm not a big fan of M$, I think they can pretty much just get their way. They could just say "Drop the lawsuit, or we stop all supporting and licensing activities in the EU effective tomorrow."
(I'm secretly hoping they do this. Think of the adoption rate of Linux then)
Strong Mad - 2008: "I PRESIDENT!"
Question for our US cousins, will this 5% be taken out of Microsoft before or after they pay US tazes? And how does it feel to be subsidising European justice?
Obligatory Bushism. :)
The EU is a bigger market than the USA, they broke the the law and now have to pay a hefty fine and publish information on how their products function. Perhaps you'd prefer the the EU to pass a law allowing legal protection to anyone who reverse engineers MS products instead?
The EU won't put up with it since it will dilute their power.
Sure they will. Microsoft bought Ireland cheap, raised their standard of living, and thereby leveraged their influence over the European Union. This has already paid off, and will continue to do so. Take a look at how software patents have been literally shoved down the Europeans' throats, against their will, despite overwhelming votes against them in the token democratic portions of the EU governance regime, despite opposition from most EU members, and despite protocols that required the issue to be handled differently than it was.
If the EU will bend over for software patents, something that is going to wipe out their technology sector almost completely, simply because a couple of big foreign companies (Microsoft and IBM) can buy a small economy outright and throw money around to depress or accelerate other economies, they'll certainly bpw to a (proportionately) minor quibble such as this.
The Future of Human Evolution: Autonomy
Find a clue stick and hit yourself, many many many times.
As a businessman he's a shyster, but he has contributed more money personally than many countries do to the fight against poverty and disease.
That deserves recognition. It's just a shame the Queen didn't make better use of her sword after giving him the knighthood....
I have been a user for about 10 years. This ends Feb 2014. The site's been ruined. I'm off. Dice, FU
MS should not have to open up their code if they do not want to. If the general public in Europe and the government have issue with this then they don't have to use MS products now do they.
News Reporters Make Tasty Polar Bear Treats!
Stick Balmer in a Room with RMS.
;)
Make Balmer listen to RMS until all problems are sorted.
Should take about 30 second, oh or Balmers head may explode.
Yay!
Where's the "+1 Sarcastic" mod?
Seriously though. This is hardly a drop in the bucket for Microsoft.
The Slashdot Posting
European Union Anti-trust measure? HA HA!
This is my sig. There are many like it but this one is mine.
Whats the basis of this nonsense ??? Nobody is holding a gun to anybody's head in the EU to use MS products. Yet again this sounds like US bashing. I say fuck em.... bastages... there are plenty of "other" OS's out there in most ways better than MS. Read Linux ....Use those.....
*--- Sometimes a majority only means that all the fools are on the same side. ---*
The pope is catholic!
Yeah, indeed a G4 probably can't keep up with a P-IV or an AMD64... *but* to the normal consumer power doesn't matter anymore.
Ahhh...the great dumpster continuum. Many a free computer will be found there. -- sowth (748135)
While it's a good thing that the network protocols are being ordered open, I've never understood why this was chosen. Microsoft has a much stronger hold on the desktop then they do on the server because this is where their lock-in tactics have worked much better.
So why not order the office formats to be opened up instead? These formats is what is forcing people to stick with microsoft upgrade through upgrade. If OpenOffice could flawlessly open word and excel documents there is no doubt in my mind that a mixed microsoft/non-microsoft environment would work much better.
Anyone know why the network protocols were targeted? Or if there is any chance that the office formats will be forced open too?
Failing to learn from history dooms you to repeat it.
Failed fr1st p0sts like these gives us ACs a bad name man !
Microsoft wants to do business in Europe (i.e. it wants the money that Europeans have) therefore they must abide by European laws and legal decisions. Microsoft does not exist purely in the USA, they are also incorporated in many other countries (by their choice), so they explicitly agreed to be bound by the laws of those countries. It's not like they didn't know what they were getting into.
I mean, you couldn't visit the UK and drive on the right-hand side of the road on the assumption that you are only bound by US laws.
As a european, I agree. Sounds good, right? Read on...
Microsoft can do whatever they please, in the US. Once they want to sell here, they have to abide by our rules. Simple isn't it? And why isn't Microsoft simply pulling out? Have you had a look at population and economy here lately? Europe can quite easily rival (not necessarily beat, but they're in the same order of magnitude) the US on these accounts and thus there's shitloads of money to made...
Oh, and, get your f**king army out of my country, BTW! There's no need for self-proclaimed world-police US (rather world-bully) to "protect" me from communism anymore (and no terrorism-discussion, please, it's utter bullshit from my point of view).
Doesn't you moron! DOESN'T!
And if they don't want to comply with European law in Europe then they can just take their marbles and go home.
No MS Office for EU.
I think you meant to say "Fucking" not "F'ing"
If I were Bill Gates, I would simply pull all of my product out of Europe and laugh at them.
Yes, but you're not Bill Gates. Microsoft is interested in global domination. As I pointed out in my earlier post, the EU is BIGGER than the US. Why would Microsoft pull out of their biggest market? It would hurt them immensely and their shareholders certainly wouldn't like it.
FTA: "So far, you don't need a licence to write software for Microsoft operating systems."
I don't know why the idea of Microsoft charging people a licensing fee to develop software for Windows never crossed my mind before.
Perhaps Microsoft wants a class-system of software development for their OS. If you want to write simple things, no charge. If you want to make data-related queries to services like Active Directory or hardware, you pay a small licensing fee. If you want to take advantage of the latest and greatest features (especially when Microsoft has a competing product in the area such as Exchange Server) you will pay through the nose.
Ruby on Rails Screencast
Imagine two processes. First,you take microsoft, and fine them five million dollars a day. Next you take a pound of lead and let it gradually evaporate vai proton decay.
Q: Which will decay to half of its value first -- the mass of the lead or Microsoft's cash reserves?
Post may contain irony: discontinue use if experiencing mood swings, nausea or elevated blood pressure.
"Yeah, indeed a G4 probably can't keep up with a P-IV or an AMD64"
Yeah, thanks for pointing that out. Not only is the Mini over-priced, but it's under-powered too.
If someone says he and his monkey have nothing to hide, they almost certainly do.
Ya loose yur tempur real easy like with bad grammer doesn't ya now?
Everyone sing along!
Ooooooh, if it's meant to be possessive,
it's just I*T*S
But if it's meant to be a contraction,
it's I*T*APOSTRAPHE*S
Scallywag!
Microsoft is also a UK company, companies house in Cardiff says so.
4 2470e8c8d4261826//compdetails
http://wck2.companieshouse.gov.uk/d4557d64d27789d
If you're a European company you have to play by European rules.
Personally for all I care you can take your buggy software and go back to you isolationist "nothing exists outside America" policy. I'm sure you and all the other redknecks will be very happy together.
billions of dollars spent on research into vaccines for AIDS will do the same amount of good regardless of the motives of the giver. I don't buy the theory of "dirty money".
I have been a user for about 10 years. This ends Feb 2014. The site's been ruined. I'm off. Dice, FU
Shouldn't that be APOSTR O PHE?
The Tao of math: The numbers you can count are not the real numbers.
The GPL allows others to freely extend a system with only the stipulation that the extension must in turn be GPL'd. For systems and protocols invented by Microsoft, the embrace and extend approach is a violation of their core rights to their IP - when Microsoft has done it to other's IP, they got hit hard for it (ala the Java fight), so we shouldn't create a double standard in which Microsoft can't extend but everyone else can.
Microsoft absolutely must publish specifications for communicating with Microsoft systems - the protocols need to be fully documented and freely available to other system makers. But it should be enough that Microsoft releases the protocols under a non-modification open liscense, as long as they do it freely and the protocol description is complete and accurate.
First off, this is NOT meant as flamebait, but, Microsoft is an AMERICAN company. Why should it give one whit what the EU finds, thinks, or wants?
Because if Microsoft wants to do business anywhere they need to obey the law.
If I were Bill Gates, I would simply pull all of my product out of Europe and laugh at them.
It's rather hard to "pull out" a product which has no physical existance.
Due to the market penetration of Windows, the EU would come crawling back, begging for Windows marketing to be reinstated.
Except that Microsoft can't remove all copies of Windows form the EU. They can't stop those copies being copiable. It's also virtually certain that there are plenty of people within the EU who could disable any "copy protection" within a short period of time and/or work out ways to have support requests come from somewhere other than the EU.
My basic point is that, as an American, why should we give a flying flip what the EU wants?!
Similarly why should the rest of the planet care much about what the US happens to think or want.
You are right, Microsoft could do such a thing, but they would go into serious troubles! Just imagine the stock os MSFT drop to 3/2 of the current value.
open4free ©
Errm...
The EU and US economies are currently about the same (around $11 trillion annual income).
MS and IBM might be big companies but they can't just "throw money around to depress or accelerate other economies", or anything near that.
Do you *really* think MS "bought Ireland cheap, raised their standard of living"?
Ireland's economy alone (annual GDP ~$122 billion) far outstrips MS's annual turnover (~$37 billion).
I think you massively overestimate the power of these corporations. They aren't nation states!
I make the assumtion, of course, that you are American.
Without going to far into the text of your comment, we (in Europe) have generally the same feeling about US litigation which seems to continuously pour beyond your borders.
So my point also would be that "as a European, why should we give a flying flip what the US wants? It's not like they really have any enforcement powers beyond their borders."
(The answer of course, is that if you want to trade overseas, we have to respect the purchasing country/states laws. Either that or everyone trades nationally and our respective economies collapse)
Ripping an new rectum in the fabric of spacetime.
"And why isn't Microsoft simply pulling out? Have you had a look at population and economy here lately? Europe can quite easily rival (not necessarily beat, but they're in the same order of magnitude) the US on these accounts and thus there's shitloads of money to made..."
...
...
Heheh
The way things are going not for long, not for long
IN the 70s EU union average GDP was around 95% that of US - todays is down to 70% ( and that's without counting eastern europeans).
Unless you reform your idiotic system you will simply fade away and your place will be taken by the likes of India or even China.
"Oh, and, get your f**king army out of my country, BTW! "
We tried. But then all these fucking German Unions and politicials started cryign that we would end up killing local enonomy.
Talk to them - I don't give a fuck about your country and your nazi past.
Next time you nazi fuckers start some shit in Europe, you will have to sort it out yourself.
Microsoft should be allowed to not open interoperable protocols on products. Those products should just not be for sale in the EU.
Halt all sales of servers or desktop PC's that have non-interoperable Microsoft software.
The price of freedom is eternal litigation.
The problem is that the US Government dropped the ball and allowed M$ to continue to act in an illegal manner. Thus the European community has to defend itself against a foreign predator, which is what MicroSoft has become.
If MicroSoft wants to do business in Europe, it needs to obey their laws. Since it has decide to ignore thier laws, Europe has two options.
1 - Punish them through financial fines
2 - Forbid them to do business in Europe
I suspect that, buried somewhere in their laws, their is a third option. Arrest and jail the officers who are instructing the company to break the law. "As and american", would you prefer Knight Gates as Jail Bird Gates?
For every problem there is a solution that is simple, obvious and wrong.
could this mean that we'll see linux distros with NTFS write in the near future.....
Fining Microsoft a few million dollars reminds me of something Orson Welles said as Citizen Kane:
You're right, I did lose a million dollars last year. I expect to lose a million dollars this year. I expect to lose a million dollars next year.
You know, Mr. Thatcher, at the rate of a million dollars a year, I'll have to close this place - in 60 years.
Why in the world would the EU find this to be a big problem? Unlike a "real" property (like oil), if Microsoft did something like that, the EU could simply make all Microsoft's products available as public domain. There'd be a lot of EU support vendors who could provide support too.
Companies who depend on intellectual property laws to support their business model must not, under any circumstances, piss off the legislators who write such laws - or they will find out exactly how ephemeral their business model is.
...over here that keep everything legal for MS. Funny how their problems went away after they started donating to political campaigns. We are truly an Ownership Democracy.
> Due to the market penetration of Windows, the
> EU would come crawling back, begging for
> Windows marketing to be reinstated. Maybe the
> EU needs to be made aware of the fact that not
> all of the world falls under their
> sovereignty.
> My basic point is that, as an American, why
> should we give a flying flip what the EU
> wants?! It's not like they really have any
> enforcement powers beyond their member's
> borders...
Well, no. But if Microsoft did try to pull Windows from Europe, they'd just give Linux a massive base, and convert all the EU software houses. In the extreme case, the EU could simply cancel Microsoft's EU copyright and exclude Windows from the Berne Convention, meaning that pirating it would become legal, as would hacking MS's site from the EU to download patches.
Depends how you look at it. Considering you get a quality OS instead of a carp one, it might even be under-priced.
As for power: do you really need it for Joe User functions? I can assure you that my mom nor my girlfriend need a P-IV 3.0GHz with Hyperthreading. The equivalent of a P-III is going to be more than enough for them.
Ahhh...the great dumpster continuum. Many a free computer will be found there. -- sowth (748135)
So Let Me ask you this. If Ms releases its network protocols to the public, do you think that will cause even more exploits to be discovered and put the average use at more of a risk to being hacked. Imho, we have enough of that jive. Please dont let every 12 year old high recluse get their hands on these.
1.8bn fine per year may be acceptable in terms of Microsft's cash flow and balancing it with what they are really 'buying'. But what if the money is used for something else like promoting other companies to compete with Microsoft or even more horrifying to Bill: Sponsor open source software.
That would be justice.
Not a great move for M$ If you force UE company and individuales to develop windows-less solution rest of the world will follow shortly. M$ simply can't loss europe.
The fine is the bribe. But it all looks nice and legal. You pay me (indirectly) by paying a big, ongoing fine. It's big to me, but not to you. In exchange, you get to continue not complying with the court order. But wait! There's more! In addition, you get software patents shoved down the EU's throat so fast that they won't even have time to gag! Now how much would you pay! Hurry. Offer ends soon. Only $1.99 Billion per year. Order today!
The price of freedom is eternal litigation.
In a statement, Microsoft also said that it is important to strike a balance between the "private interests of Microsoft" and the "public interests of Commission with respect to implementation of the [antitrust] decision". Isn't that what got them into trouble to begin with?
Why does an American Company have to be subjected to the fines and penalties of a foreign semi-socialistic union.
Because they are not an American company, they are an International company. When in Rome, obey the Roman laws or pay the consequences. Or do you think North Korean companies should be able to do business in the U.S. but not follow any of our laws while over here?
European companies would not allow such a sanction.
Several European companies have already been given fines nearly as high as this, and they have complied.
If Microsoft is truly a monopoly (and I am not suggesting that it is not), it should be taken up in the United States
It was, then MS bribed the Republican and the Democrats and the Justice department decided their punishment was to have nothing happen to them. Maybe if the U.S. government was not so corrupt the EU would not have to step in. Who elected them again?
The European Union wants to further degrade the U.S. dollar and establish itself as a superpower.
With 5 million a day? Umm, OK then. The U.S. is doing plenty to degrade its own currency. The EU does not need to help out. It's what happens when you put a lying coke addict, who has run several businesses into the ground, and has a vested interest in making money for himself in charge.
Meanwhile, in Bizzaro Slashdot, Euro-bashing reaches a fevered pitch as Microsoft announces that the EU has failed to comply with its requirements.
I was just about to make the identical post.
"ZDNet is reporting the news that the EU has rejected Microsoft's attempt to wriggle out of it's legal obligation to open up Windows protocols."
That's absolutely boneheaded.
Microsoft WAS found to be guilty of abusing it's monopoly position in the United States. However, there is one major difference, all the remedies to the court findings got conveniently tossed away when the administration changed back in 2000.
So basically MS was found guilty, but had to do almost nothing as a remedy.
The EU just reaffirmed the same things since the United States in this case didn't have the balls to enforce the findings. Plain and Simple.
in that case, microsoft better settles by abiding the _real_ deal (ie. opening the specs for everyone without silly restrictions) on at least some cases
I guess MS would be very pleased if the stock "dropped" to 3/2 (=150%) of the current value.
The Tao of math: The numbers you can count are not the real numbers.
And he made that money by selling software to, among others, the very countries that didn't spend as much as him on fighting poverty and disease. Looks like they still contributed to those charitable causes then, albeit indirectly, and may deserve a small portion of that recognition?
I don't mind giving money to charitable causes, nor do I mind others doing business as they see fit, but I'd rather be confident that the money I pay for goods and services go to the production of said goods and services. If not all of it does, then at least those boxes should be labelled "1% of retail price goes to the Red Cross" or whatever, so I can tell when I've done my part.
Not all contributions are of a monetary nature, though. Contributions of new ideas, methods and technologies may be at least as worthy of recognition as a big check, but sometimes a big check may be the only way to make others notice your new idea, method or technology. This may very well be the case also for Bill Gates, and I'm pretty sure I had no part in any such contribution of his. Good for him.
Ahh....There is that fine "American" logic...If you don't like something, tough luck. We are great and if you don't like hearing it and saying it back, you can suck our balls. If you try to do anything bad to us, we will say you have WMD and come to war with you, or stop trading with you. Good logic. I am sure it will work.
As soon as they realise that they are paying $1.8 Billions a year to efficient competition they will comply.
simply because a couple of big foreign companies (Microsoft and IBM) can buy a small economy outright and throw money around to depress or accelerate other economies,
I obviously didn't make it clear that the "small" economy I was referring to was Ireland in the early-to-mid 1990s, NOT the EU in the early twenty-naughties. MS in some respects essentially "bought" Ireland, and by so doing, bought an imense amount of influence in the EU through Ireland as a proxy. This is born out by Ireland's willingness to sell out the rest of the EU's interesst vis-a-vis software patents at the behest of their own biggest taxpayer, the Microsoft Monopoly in pushing software patents through the EU. Microsoft probably didn't have enough money to have a similiar impact on, say, Denmark, France or Germany's economy, though they can throw enough money around to help or hurt those economies, as they have publicly threatened to do.
The Future of Human Evolution: Autonomy
If the EU was fining Microsoft this $5,000,000 per year, and investing the entire amount into Mandrake and Suse (and to a lesser extent, OSx?
Microsoft paying $1.8billion, per year, to develop their primary rivals.
God damn it, that pisses me off just thinking about it. Damn communists!!
Normally I believe in a proper argument, critically deconstruct their views, burn their straw men and quote facts to back your corner.
But today I typed "rm *.f" rather than "rm *.o", I'm tired and hung over - so I'll be brief:
You're a fucking moron
Just imagine the stock os MSFT drop to 3/2 of the current value.
Most people would refer to that as a 50% increase, not a "drop".
Interesting... You automatically assumed I'm German... The US army is stationed all over Europe, you know?
On a side note GDP is not necessarily the best way to express a value for "economy", which is why I
a) used such a fuzzy term and
b) included the "not necessarily beat" snippet.
Oh, and please, go talk to your politicians how we will have to sort things out ourselves next time we start some shit, because personally I think the world would be far less war-torn if the US adopted that point of view and such problems could actually be discussed by the UN (It is their official (read: as undersigned by all members, e.g. countries) job, after all...)
...the government and corporations are the same people!
(See: Silvio Berlusconi)
10 PRINT CHR$(205.5+RND(1)); : GOTO 10
because european companies are subjected to US fines, too, if they do business in the US and violate american laws - it's normal, and it's good that way, otherwise all those companies would incorporate on some pacific island without any law and export to all other countries avoiding the rules the local economy has to abide to.
oh, and btw. the EU fines european companies all the time, it just happens that we don't have a high-profile monopolist who breaks the rules in software business over here, so you probably just didn't notice it.
todays is down to 70%
Just a question: where did you get this? The EU and the US's GDPs are both circa $11 trillion.
Unless you reform your idiotic system you will simply fade away and your place will be taken by the likes of India or even China.
Because we all know the US has nothing to fear from outsourcing...
We tried. But then all these fucking German Unions and politicials started cryign that we would end up killing local enonomy.
I don't know how many soldiers there are in Germany, but I doubt that would make any difference.
Next time you nazi fuckers start some shit in Europe, you will have to sort it out yourself.
It seems you are closer to a nazi government than Germany is.
Can EU price up the fine to $500m/day?
open4free ©
He just got the Washington State Supreme Court to hand him a ruling that says he doesn't have to pay Estate Tax, and that's $145 million right there.
So $5 million a day is a long time from his viewpoint, especially when he's the richest man in the World, with Paul Allen the fourth richest - and that's most of Microsoft's stockholders right there.
-- Tigger warning: This post may contain tiggers! --
Don't forget there are huge group of multinationals that use windows.
If windows were to become unavaible in the EU then they'd be forced to run some alternative on a significant portion of their desktops.
Once you've figured out how to deploy said alternative, and since the per seat cost of switching is comparatively low, and you may as well extend it to the entire enterprise.
The Germans have had and always will have a Nazi mentality. The fourth Reich is around the corner and the new Europe(eastern european countries) need to just fall in line and shut up.
If I were Bill Gates, I would simply pull all of my product out of Europe and laugh at them. Due to the market penetration of Windows, the EU would come crawling back, begging for Windows marketing to be reinstated.
That's EXACTLY why the EU needs to stick to their guns. Any company with that kind of power needs to be watched very carefully.
"after all MS does not have it's own army yet."
Sure they do.
Here's their web address:
Microsoft's Army
There is not nearly enough love in the world, but there is far too much trust.
>> Why should it give one whit what the EU finds, thinks, or wants?
Because a global law cares:
"United Nations Convention on Contracts for the International Sale of Goods"
And yes, you are obliged to it.
The only nazi government I currently see in this world is the one by the US...
The Washington Post runs an entertaining "new words by adding/removing/changing one letter" competition from time to time as part of its "Style Invitation" series. Some recent favourites included:
and of course this particular speciality of Slashdot moderators:
If you disagree, post your argument. (-1, Overrated) isn't your personal censorship tool for views you don't like.
The closest thing to a constitution in many European countries, starting with the Magna Carta on down, often preserves rights similar to those preserved by the first ten amendments to the U.S. Constitution. Thus, "Fifth Amendment" was likely intended to read "Fifth Amendment and foreign counterparts."
Okay kid, you want our troops out, tell your government to kick 'em out. I'd be happy to have our boys back home and let you whiny-ass morons fend for yourself. You obviously have no grasp of history nor macroeconomics.
> If they want to do business in the EU they need
> to comply with the law, or they can stop doing business there.
Have you considered what would happen if Microsoft pulled out of Europe tomorrow?
Consider the following parable.
---
One day the heart, brain, and intestines were arguing over who is the boss.
The brain said it was most important because it controlled the body.
The intestines said it was most important because processed the food that powered the body.
The heart said it was most important because if it stopped beating, the body would die in minutes.
And so they argued for hours, until the bum whispered, I'm the most important.
They laughed and told the bum to shut up.
And so it did.
After two weeks of "shutting up" the rest of the body surrendered and declared that the bum was the most important part of the body.
This goes to show that in order to be the boss, you don't have to have a brain or a heart or even guts. You just have to be an a**hole.
Bit harsh old boy, a bit harsh!
Denmark's 2003 unemployment was 6.6%. Finland's 2003 unemploymen was 9%. Did not check the other countries' rates. Could someone with more time check this out?
See my journal for slashdot ID's by year. Mine created in 2005. http://slashdot.org/journal/289875/slashdot-ids-by-year
" where did you get this? The EU and the US's GDPs are both circa $11 trillion."
..
Doh
Yeah, how many people it took to generate this sort of output in US as opposed to Europe?
Ever thought about that ?
To those ranting about "Microsoft's Rights", let me remind you:
Monopolies are bad because, once established, the alternative sources of competition are crushed. After that is accomplished, the monopolists can do whatever they want.
This is what we have with Microsoft. The government, in an ideal scenario, exists to provide security to the populace, not monopolist corporations, which explains the EU's position on the issue. If you trust corporations, who are entities created with most of the rights of humans, and none of the ethical responsibilities, to better serve the public, you're extremely naive. While there are still are some, we should rally behind forces at work which are seeking to protect the populace against monopolies that seek to stifle competition and innovation.
Screw the $5 million per day idea.
Give them 45 days to comply.
On the first day, fine them 1 cent.
On the second day, fine them 2 cents.
3rd day, 4 cents.
4th day, 8 cents. And keep going, doubling the fine each day.
Microsoft will certainly agree to these easy terms!
-CausticPuppy "Of all the people I know, you're certainly one of them." -Somebody I don't know
Exactly!
It's scary how so many people here seem to think corporations are unstoppable. I think they've been brainwashed.
Corporations are:
1) not lawmakers
2) unelected
3) don't have the financial muscle to go head to head with even minor economic powers.
Still, the fear must be exciting, or something.
One thing that MAY come of this is that the EU, UNLIKE the US, may show everyone they have a spine when it comes do dealing with Microsoft. I'm not sure the US outcome could even be considered a slap on the hand. Nothing really changed, except that now it's public information that Bill Gates & Co. aren't exactly truthful when it comes to their own business affiars. But so what? Thngs are pretty much the same.
Because if MS licenses their protocol to one GPL product, they're essentially giving up all license fees to any further companies who would want to use MS's protocols.. why buy a license from MS when you can just use the GPL implementation for free?
Remember that the ruling did NOT say MS must give away their IP for free, only that they license it on a reasonable and non-discriminatory basis.
MS is right to be wary about giving away their intellectual property without appropriate compensation.
I am the maverick of Slashdot
The Parliament and the Commission are different entities, true, but it's actually the Commission that is trying desperately to push through the directive on Computer-Implemented Inventions, while the Parliament has been calling for substantial amendments of it. In any case, the Commission runs a large organization of its own, and may well maintain several mutually unrelated agendas at once.
I think however that the software patent issue does not depend on lobbying by Microsoft alone, but also on efforts by other major players in Europe. Therefore even the very same Commission won't necessarily see any problem introducing software patents with one hand while spanking Microsoft with the other. When Microsoft starts using those patents against European interests, we may be hearing a different song from the Commission.
"It ain't over 'til the fat commissioner sings."
Actually I'm a student of history, specializing in WW2 and later. And, concerning macroeconomics, I doubt anyone seriously knowledgeable in any scientific field would outrightly disagree to such a statement as mine, because I said "not necessarily the best", which is another way of saying "I don't know, but a single value rarely accurately describes a complex system". But then, why am I discussing with an anonymous coward (who didn't get my remark as sarcastic, apparently) calling me a whiny-ass moron anyway?
For the last fucking time:
it's == it is
You know, I'm otherwise fairly pro-MS, by Slashdot standards. (In much the same way as being right wing in the EU still counts as left wing in the US, and viceversa.) I do believe that MS has all the right in the world to keep the Windows/Office/IE/whatever sources secret. I don't believe that making money or being a corporation is a capital sin. And worse yet, I do believe that they did make a better product.
(Or more precisely, that everyone else had a crappier product. Who was gonna win the OS wars? OS/2? Heh.)
But no, I don't think that API specs should be an internal secret for a company that produces both the OS and the apps.
Allowing the API conspiracy, for lack of a better word, is what allowed MS to be a monopoly in the first place. You can't expect any sort of even playing field as long as Windows contains parts written just for Word or for IE, and parts which can be deliberately broken when a competing product wants to use them.
E.g., the classic example is Novell. They wanted to make their own Netware servers too able to act as a domain controller, so you can choose whichever fits your general needs best for that role. Basically a fair competition on merits, no?
Microsoft didn't even pretend to play fair. It simply informed Novell that if Novell publishes such a product, MS _will_ break it. And they did. They messed with the APIs and with where does that part go inside Windows, until Novell gave up and cancelled the product.
And that's exactly that kind of anti-competitive behaviour that this ruling is supposed to prevent. Because anything else is just giving MS an official blessing to continue the monopolistic behaviour.
A polar bear is a cartesian bear after a coordinate transform.
Yeah, I guess it all depends. On one hand diamonds are worthless because their prices are actually dependant on manipulations of a cartel. But on the other hand, if someone dumb blonde wants to spend a fortune on one to impress other dumb blondes, I guess that's her right.
If someone says he and his monkey have nothing to hide, they almost certainly do.
Has anyone figured out how much a PC of similar speed, capabilities, and features as the Mini would cost? I am guessing it would be between 1/2 and 3/4 the cost of the Mini.
Don't blame Durga. I voted for Centauri.
If you don't care about power, you could get a complete Pentium 2 system with Linux on it, loaded with drives and features missing on the Mini (probably even a monitor, too!) for much less than the price of Mini. You could probably get 3 or so such systems for the price of the Mini.
Don't blame Durga. I voted for Centauri.
ut today I typed "rm *.f" rather than "rm *.o" What are you, a fricken Fortran programmer?!? And you're calling other people morons? ;-)
One major point is who you count; examples:
That's one "funny" problem in Germany right now:
Due to a part of a federal law change (meant to reduce unemployment) Germany's rate is jumping right now:
municipalities are "reclassifying" recipients of social security that in reality can't or won't work as people who are able to work (=can _in_theory_ work at _some_ job for at least 3 hours a day), upping the current unemployment rate big time.
The money is about the same, so why are they doing such a silly bureaucratic thing, binding even more resources meant to help willing people find a job, lessening their chances?
A: Because of the new law, unemployment insurance is now payed from the federal fund and municipalities are only responsible for social security.
In some areas more than 99% of former social security recipients are suddenly able to work again.
It's really a wonder! Must be Jesus doing a "Germany 2005 Tour" or something like that..
Now, who didn't see that one coming..
Legacy code my friend... Legacy code...
And I'm not a programmer I'm an Astrophysicist damn it! We can't get enough of the Fortran stuff.
Good to see more euro trash scum on Slashdot
Fuck off bigot!
We're not all isolationist rednecks here in America! In fact, almost half of us are pretty sure that Bush is a Moron. And the other half think that the invasion of Iraq was a good idea, which would make them interventionist rednecks, not isolationist rednecks...
I've abandoned my search for truth; now I'm just looking for some useful delusions.
It only stops them from getting paid licensing if people DON'T want to GPL the app written to the specification. If they (the competitors of MS) want to keep the source closed, they'll have to buy the license, rather than use the GPL one.
Read the GPL.
Oh, hang on, you never do, do you dark jedi....
Apparently a little more than half as many.
RMS = asshat commie
Be careful, once a hippie drum circle starts it could turn into a full on hippie jam band festival!
If MS pulled out and became a truly foreign corporation, wouldn't the EU have to deal with the WTO if they try such a thing?
First off all, please, be the Microsoft CEO. I beg ya.
EU is a big market. Pulling out of the EU means that EU will use competing softwares and operating systems. This is very good for linux, Mac OS X, OpenOffice, etc.. The huge increases in market share, mind share, and installed base share make more developers unable to marginalize and ignore them. Thus, Microsoft will get much more potent competition and users will have less excuses to be tied to Microsoft products. Freed from Microsoft's iron grip, they will look at alternatives. This is very good for linux, Mac OS X, OpenOffice, etc. (repeat and rinse).
Bottom line, pulling out of the EU may very well eliminate Microsoft's monopoly. So, please do whatever you can to be Microsoft's CEO.
Second of all, Microsoft does business in EU countries and being sovereign, EU countries can do whatever they want to Microsoft for not complying with their laws. EU may not have soverignty over Microsoft HQ in Redmond, but they sure have sovereignty over Microsoft business offices in EU countries and how Microsoft does business in their own country.
The flip side of your argument is, as non-Americans, why should the world give a flying flip what the US wants? Is it any wonder why the world has a bad perception of the US hearing the way you talk? The US may be more powerful than any single nation in the world, but she is not more powerful than all the nations in the world combined. Don't be an arrogant fool. We need the world as much as the world needs us.
I've waited years to be able to actually say this:
:-)
I don't think that word means what you think it does
I think you are overlooking Israel...
Your an astrophysicist...and i'm the bloody King of England!
I think a Phd student in Astrophysics has the right to call himself just that... So my King, whats it like doing a 70 year old chick?
Motto of many a Microsoft employee: Will work for FUD
"It's scary how so many people here seem to think corporations are unstoppable. I think they've been brainwashed."
You have been brainwashed. The dangers you are facing from corporations are nothing, literally nothing compared to the dangers you face from your own goverment.
It has been proven over and over again.
So be fucking carefull what you wish for because next time around they will use folks with guns to force YOU into line, something Microsoft cannot do.
Yes it does, bigot!
I think this fine isn't Big Enough.
RS
Shoes for Industry. Shoes for the Dead.
Kind of like doing your mom. Except Her Majesty doesn't do anal.
All this arguing about $5 million per day and why should MS care what the EU thinks is completely missing the point. Mega multi-nationals like MS are the servants of capital markets. 95% of the time, the markets don't give a shit what kind of trouble a company has if the profits are rolling in as expected. But, trouble like getting shut out of a market the size of the EU would be disaster. The markets would punish MS severely.
A company that can't do business in the EU is not a global company, and their growth prospects would be drastically reduced. Remember that there's nothing personal here. The stock is worth the market's estimation of all future profits discounted for inflation, capital cost, risk, etc. $5 million a day in fines would have a much lower impact on MS' stock price. That's because the fine is quantified, predictible and likely short-term. But to be shut out of a market the size of the EU is unprecidented in modern corporate history. No corporate leader could possibly risk such an event. Imagine the shareholder lawsuits if MS stock price fell because they refused to comply with a the law in a juristiction the size of the EU. MS would knuckle under far before such a thing could happen.
It's rather hard to "pull out" a product which has no physical existance.
CDs? Documentation? The little cardboard boxes that hold them?
And how exactly have I displayed being "a prejudiced person who is intolerant of any opinions differing from his own"? (http://www.google.com/search?q=define:+bigot)
/. apparently :-)
We have not even had an argument or an exchange of opinions in the first place... So how could I have even been intolerant of any opinion? (Adding that I can't even be sure I'm talking to the same Anonymous Coward all the time who apparently values his word so little he doesn't even risk his precious "Karma"). No I think this is simple flame-bait and trolling so far, I just tend to enjoy some trolls more than many "serious" posts on
Maybe I'll get a good response this time, otherwise this discussion is over, it's getting pretty boring...
I always love superficial analysis like this. The fact is France and Germany's unemployment has been trouble for decades.
b al /ilo/seura/usunemp.htm
The US has had some trouble spots. But none like you mention:
http://www.itcilo.it/english/actrav/telearn/glo
See my journal for slashdot ID's by year. Mine created in 2005. http://slashdot.org/journal/289875/slashdot-ids-by-year
Now you're saying Bill Gates is trying to become exempt from taxes...
If he's putting himself above royalty, we have a problem.
It's a small world and it smells funny; I'd buy another if it wasn't for the money; Take back what I paid (SoM)
I'm sure the EU would be just as open to suggestions on its trade policy from the WTO as they are from MS...
Ultimately the WTO are toothless against entities the size of the EU and the USA. A trade war would be stupid, but it's enlightened self-interest that stops such an occurence not the WTO.
Has anyone figured out how much a PC of similar speed, capabilities, and features as the Mini would cost?
Ease of learning how to use the preinstalled operating system is an important feature to many residential users. Which x86 operating system has a graphical environment that balances ease of learning and ease of power-use as well as Mac OS X does?
Is it ok for Microsoft to make agreements with national governments, to give lots of expensive software for free? Cause that's what they are doing in the EU.. eg in Malta
So, for example, when IBM was faced with a similar requirement they were allowed to charge USD 5 per printed manual, and , in general, up to 5 manuals per product were allowed.
These days one would expect the .pdf(s) to be almost free.
The main point is that M$ blatant contempt of court orders will catch up with them much faster here when whole actions are often struck-out (dismissed) or decided in a month -- none of your SCO circus.
Finally, company officers can go to jail for contempt.
Keep it up Sir Bill!
The EU fine could arguably be called a tariff, and ultimately the WTO may have to chime in on this.
Economics is filled with theories and opinions (there's a saying that in a room with two economists there are three opinions) - however, the general concensus is that government policy to "protect" domestic industries through trade barriers (such as quotas and tariffs) is bad for a country from a purely economic point of view in all cases except one - if the imported products are produced by a monopoly since tariffs can then be used to channel the monopoly rent to government pockets instead of the (foreign) monopoly.
> Yeah, how many people it took to generate this sort of output in US as opposed to Europe?
Don't think about people. Think about workin hours. You'll soon find out that people in europe have life outside work too. I live in Finland. My annual salary (without taxes) falls within the 40000..50000$ range. I have 30 days off + ~12 national holidays and 8 hour working day with 1/2 hour lunch + 2*15 minute coffee breaks.
Even though we finns are mostly workaholics it's nothing compared to you guys over there.
Got my point? The average american works much much longer hours with much lower salary to remain competitive than average european and even then he doesn't have 40+ days off.
No matter how fast light travels it finds the darkness has always got there first, and is waiting for it. (T. Pratchett)
From the Zdnet article:
Microsoft has been found guilty by the highest authorities in Europe -- as in the US -- of abusing its monopoly position. As a result, the company is required to stop that abuse. In this case, it has been told it must make server protocols available: by withholding that information, it has prevented companies from writing competitive software
Isn't that what the EU and US software patent laws are intended for?
Brown thought he was clever; but Bill Gates is much smarter than Brown. Witness this press release:
"Microsoft has just announced that the EU fines are in violation of the terms of its legal agreement. Consquently, Microsoft is going to fine the EU $6 Million per day, for each day this violation occurs."
Hmmm. The only difference that I see is that Microsoft will probably get paid, while the EU doesn't. *rimshot*
The United Nations: A political organization established in 1945 that worships the alter of compromise over principle.
A full 1/4 of all member nations are led by authoritarian regimes. Travesties such as Libya leading the U.N. Commision for Human Rights would be humorous if not for the revealing nature that is the U.N.
The U.N. has very little power to enforce much of anything. An example would be the Hussein government ignoring 16 Security Council resolutions to give among other items, a full accounting of its WMD program. Another example is the bleeding of Darfur while the U.N. debates whether the deaths of 100,000 people is genocide.
Considering that the U.N. is not a democratic organization in any form. It is curious why Lefties think it is morally superior to any other nation? Why a U.N. stamp of approval is contingent for acceptance by a Leftist?
The GPL has a philosophical objective: to keep the code free and, like math and science, keep public contributions available so anyone can build on the ideas of others for the benefit of everyone.
That sounds good to me. I guess you object to that idea. Where would our culture be today if people like Issac Newton did not give his fundamental laws like Force = (mass)(acceleration) to the public?
"$1.8 billion a year would be a big boost to free software if an EU agency were to funnel it into free software development. That would anger Microsoft more than increasing the fine would. "
It's pathetic how people here claim to value freedom, but have no problem taking away someone's freedom when they don't like what they're doing. So now you want private companies to pay for your free software and use the force of govt. to get what you want. So much for freedom.
Vote for Pedro
Can't....resist...replying to a troll...
The European Union wants to further degrade the US dollar and establish itself as a superpower.
Get a clue about economics: It is trivial for any central bank in any country to make the currency apprechiate/depreciate against other currencies but the U.S. won't let the dollar apprechiate for now because (1) it would result in U.S. job losses since European demand for U.S. goods would decrease and (2) it would result in even more U.S. job losses because it would make Chinese labour even cheaper and the Chinese currency (Yuan/Renmimbi) has already been undervalued for quite some time, which has hurt the U.S. "Undervalued" is obviously an opinion but everybody except Beijing agrees with that and have thus put pressure on China to let its currency apprechiate. And finally: Becoming a superpower isn't even remotely related to the value of a currency.
"Microsoft was attempting to bypass the regulation by offering a license totally incompatible with the GPL and which has an absurdly high fee attached."
At issue is opening up protocols, not source code. WTF does the GPL have to do with anything? Why should anyone have the right to force the GPL on MS anyway for their own code?
Vote for Pedro
You are a perfect example of why most of the rest of the world considers the average American to be a pompous, arrogant, ignorant, a-hole. Which is why, as you may have noticed, you've been modded as flamebait, even though you claimed not to be.
Due to the market penetration of Windows, the EU would come crawling back, begging for Windows marketing to be reinstated.
Any country or group of countries in their right mind would consider such a thing a virtual ATTACK on said country(ies) survival and economic prosperity, due to the monopolistic market penetration of Windows. As far as I (an American) am concerned, the countries in question would be well within their rights and responsibilities to their citizens to terminate all local copyrights, patents and trademarks owned by Microsoft, to allow the country to continue to supply itself with the dominant Microsoft software (for survival) while they work on moving everything over to OS X, Linux and other alternative software that won't allow them to be brought to their knees by a single corporation ever again.
The fact that the EU could be literally forced to come begging a single corporation to come back and do business with them after said corporation basically committed the equivalent of a terrorist attack on their member nations is exactly why monopolists cannot be allowed to abuse their monopolies, and why monopolies should be discouraged from even existing. Nothing should have that much power over the economy of an entire nation.
Do you not realize that if they have this power over the EU, they have the same power over the US? How is that acceptable just because they are an American-based company? Would it be cool if Microsoft just "pulled out" of the government software market, refused to sell to the US government and stopped giving them any service or updates? Hopefully you would be outraged at any American company that did such a thing, especially a company like Microsoft that wields monopoly power in our economy. It would essentially be an attack on the government's ability to run and protect our precious America.
The fact that you think it would be A-OK for an American company to do such a thing as long as it doesn't do it in the US, is absolutely frightening. You come off like you think God made Americans in His own image and we are the Chosen People who can do no wrong. You think any American company can go anywhere in the world and do whatever it wants without regard to local laws, and without ever being fined for breaking the law, just because it's a US-based company? And then you sit back and wonder why so much of the population of Earth hates Americans with a passion.
My basic point is that, as an American, why should we give a flying flip what the EU wants?! It's not like they really have any enforcement powers beyond their member's borders...
As Americans, "we" don't really care what the EU wants. But if you want to GO to the EU and do business IN THEIR COUNTRIES, you need to abide by their rules, just like their companies need to abide by our rules when they do business in the US. Is there something complicated about that? They aren't trying to enforce anything beyond their own borders! They are merely dictating the behavior of Microsoft's branches in their own area of the world.
In their part of the world, where Microsoft, being a multinational corporation, very much desires to continue doing business, Microsoft has been convicted of abusing its monopoly position in the market (breaking the law). They've been told to stop violating the local laws. They refused, so the EU imposed some fines and remedies. Microsoft in effect thumbed their nose at the fines and remedies imposed by the courts, so the EU is going to impose more fines, as is their right to do in their own part of the world. Again, is there something complicated here?
I always wonder how people even get ideas like yours into their heads. If you gave it just a smidgen of thought those ideas SHOULD self-destr
Talk about dinosaurs. Please, go back to raising your retarded preemie according to Dr. Spock and get the fuck out of here with this rhetoric from forty fucking years ago no one gives a shit about.
sebFlyte writes "ZDNet is reporting the news that the EU has rejected Microsoft's attempt to wriggle out of it's legal obligation to open up Windows protocols.
"its"
Wow, now they can't even get grammar correct.
It would be cool if it didn't suck.
"If I were Bill Gates, I would simply pull all of my product out of Europe and laugh at them. Due to the market penetration of Windows, the EU would come crawling back, begging for Windows marketing to be reinstated."
Yes... you would... and you would also loose about 30% of your income... Nice move... that is why you are NOT Bill Gates...
It's pathetic how people here claim to value freedom, but have no problem taking away someone's freedom when they don't like what they're doing.
It's not that we just don't like what Microsoft is doing. Remember that Microsoft has been convicted of abusing its operating system monopoly in violation of law. I know what "liberty" is, and I know that "due process of law" (and foreign counterparts) is justification for taking it away.
So now you want private companies to pay for your free software
Is it any worse than having convicted individuals do x-hundred hours of community service?
The US Goverment's action against Microsoft was a joke from start to finish. The US Goverment taught Microsoft a very improtant lesson: Microsoft can do whatever it likes even if it is illegal.
Ah, another fine example of assuming things... I'm no leftist, sorry, just because you don't agree with me (I never disagreed with the original poster) that doesn't put me in a position diametrical to the label you choose for yourself, but that's just bean-counting, isn't it?
So, on to the argument at hand: Why does anyone think the UN is morally superior to any other nation? Well, first off, it's not a nation, but a council of nations. That gives it exactly the same amount of moral superioritity as any other representative council, say a parliament for example. Is that morally superior? No, it can never be so per se. It's the part about being more or less democratic that's interesting here. If a majority of those involved can reach a consensus, that's usually considered democratic and thus a more aceptable way of handling things than, say, one nation simply attacking another on a whim.
So, is the UN too slow to handle things? Sometimes. I sure wish they'd have more power (The U.S. would have to face sanctions for attacking a whole lot of countries under fraudulent accusations then), but does lack of power and slow reaction time require someone to "simply have the guts to do it in their place"? That's the national equivalent of self-justice, a practice looked down upon as barbaric in most so-called "civilized" countries...
So, is the UN more right to order sanctions and eventually send troops? In my personal opinion, no (I'm no leftist, as I said, I prefer everyone to keep his nose out of other peoples life). But it sure has a way more democratic backing than anyone else, simply because it represent everyone else's consensus... If you don't believe in democracy, than, of course, I can understand your reaction, but please refrain from bringing your version of it to others by force, will you?
I don't mean this as a troll or even a joke, it's a real question: could they issue an arrest warrent for Bill Gates? The parent suggested arresting Microsoft employees in Europe, but why would they stop there? Clearly there are practical reasons for NOT going after Gates, but how high in the company could they reach? Just wondering.
You must work for Microsoft? Am I right? Probably a bush family supporter too. The reality of this world is that only a few percentages of the populance even live at high enough standards to purchase software, let along own a computer or even care about one, more then just staying alive. Your mind is obviously just set on money is it not? Its people like you that make the richer even richer and make the poor even worse off then they are, eventually people like you would rather see euthanasia then give these people a chance if they cannont purchase your software. Let us not be blinded by our greed for such things as money there are more important things in life, I pray for you my friend and people like you to make this world a better place.
That gave me quite a laugh. Thanks for the link.
:D
Now I think I am going to go cry somewhere...
There is no excellent beauty that hath not some strangeness in the proportion. -- Francis Bacon
If I make a product and you buy it... there is no way I would let you tell me what to do with it! It does not physically harm anyone so there should be NO LAWS regarding its use and development. Don't use it if you don't like it.
You can not use nukes. Once you do, you make it an acceptable way - and your "umbrella" won't stop your *own* *test* probes, so for the SS-27 Topol-M beauties it won't be even a slow-down. Remember you are not the only one with ICBMs anymore. Such infantile sabre-rattling is laughable.
Your empire is still big, but in quiet nights you can hear the termites in its beams. Once the foreign banks start dumping dollars, you're toast.
Be careful. Very careful.
Usage of PCs is now prohibited until recall. Mainframes, typewriters, drawing desks, telephones, teletypes and faxes are to replace the PCs until suitable substitution is found.
We are fully cognizant of the drastical consequences, and this declaration is our last, best hope for indepence.
Your sincerelly, EUros.
P.S. we want our money back.
BTW Microsoft doesn't have its personal military forces (for now). But when the day comes, MS Marines will fight for software democracy everywhere they can. It is not fair if some users are virus/spyware/adware and some are not.
Different users are born. But Bill Gates came and made them equal.
The mini is something like a Porsche: at least it will work when the latest Windows exploit ravages the x86 population (Ferraris)
Same price: different quality.
(Note to Ferrari fans: Ferrari quality may have changed by now. I'm just using the classic prejudices against the brand)
Ahhh...the great dumpster continuum. Many a free computer will be found there. -- sowth (748135)
"Today's $5M project will be to add handwriting recognition to the KDE project." Who is the competitor here?
Got time? Spend some of it coding or testing
I think Sj0 just earned some.
State-run everything just sucks, but you do need some basic infrastructure to be state-guaranteed.
Got time? Spend some of it coding or testing
First offence: Monopolisation. Fine $5M/day.
Second offence: Contempt of Court. Fine $50M/day.
Got time? Spend some of it coding or testing
ISTR something about risk-takers who would ride without a ticket being highly likely to be wanted in connection with other things, too. And the time, embarrassment and discomfort spent near clink while the paperwork was sorted out would be a considerably greater incentive to honesty than the actual fine. And the risk of being warrant-checked and winding up really in clink should keep a lot of nasties off the trains, too.
Got time? Spend some of it coding or testing
If you look at software, the Mac loses out even more. There are hardly any programs available for it, as compared to the PC (running wither Linux OR Windows). Apple did not even bother to try in the OS department in the period before OS X: the previous versions were made crippled and hard to use do the lack of a command line. There's a reason that more than 90% of desktop users reject the Mac as not meeting their needs.
Okay, I'll continue to use my GPL operating system and software (which work better for me than any of their closed-source counterparts that I've tried), while you continue to stick your head in the sand.
Suits me fine.
Incidentally, I know how to register a domain name and how to code a non-suckarse website without using FrontPage.
Oh for fuck's sake. The HTML Writer's Guild hasn't been relevant to anything since 1995. It carries about as much weight as having a Geocities award banner on your site.
That alone invalidates any credibility you might have.
...he court findings got conveniently tossed away when the administration changed back in 2000.
Changed back to what?