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Microsoft Censoring Blogs on MSN China
jdfox writes "The BBC is reporting that Microsoft is censoring blogs on MSN China. The words 'freedom', 'democracy' and 'demonstration' are reportedly among the words being blocked.
But the article also points out that Microsoft is not the first corporation to censor content when the Chinese government requests it." Slashdot covered this story a few days ago too.
This story is a dupe....reported previously as "Microsoft Bans 'Democracy' for China's Web Users" on Saturday, June 11th.
Dupes are nothing new here, but the following is what really boggles me...
From TFS:
Um...OK...if you know it's a dupe, why is it still being re-reported?
____
~ |rip/\/\aster /\/\onkey
Yes, but what of fr33d0m, d3m0cracy, and dem0nstrat1on?
Don't blame Durga. I voted for Centauri.
..they'd simply pull out of the Chinese market.
But whats human rights and freedom when theres
market share and online presence at stake. Right?
The words 'freedom', 'democracy' and 'demonstration' are reportedly among the words being blocked.
What about 'linux', 'google' and 'apple'?
"On this site in 1989, nothing happened." - Tianenmen Square plaque
All movements for social change begin as missions, evolve into businesses, and end up as rackets.
I wonder what other words they will censor....Linux...Open source.....
Corps like that do nothing other than karma whoring with nasty governments...
.... just how intelligent the screening process really is.
f ^hr ^he ^h e ^hd ^ho ^hm
gives a good ASCII rendition of "freedom". And of course, there are many, many ways to display text without actually sending the text.
SELECT * FROM USERS WHERE CLUE > 0
0 rows selected
from a company that is all about the money? There is no way that MS does not somehow benefit from this. Methinks that MS appealed to the Chinese government along these lines:
MS: Chinese governement, we will help you block dissident-speak on our Chineses portal (and report the offenders) if you will pimp our products to your agencies and large businesses.
CG: OK, sounds great.
First it's V14ggra and Phaermaecea, next it's fr3edomme and D3nnocraccy.
Yeah, that's pretty shitty, but I wouldn't say it's Microsoft's fault. If they want to do business in China they have to comply with Chinese law. Chinese law's kinda oppressive. News at 11.
i mean even the US censors stuff even though they say they don't..
If the US Government censored people talking shit about it, this very website would have been shut down years ago.
Reminds me of the people marching with signs reading "BUSH = HITLER". The very fact they can march in public holding that sign and nothing happens to them proves that it isn't true.
All movements for social change begin as missions, evolve into businesses, and end up as rackets.
Wow, so Microsoft is responsible for the lack of human rights in China? But China is awesome right? I mean, they use linux, how can they be bad?
I bet they only use linux for the good stuff, and then they switch over to a MS box when they need to do some oppressing.
Oh wait...welcome to earth ;)
Could someone in the know explain how this happens from a business perspective? What are the benefits to Microsoft and others for complying, or the results of not complying? Is it even an option for them to say 'no thanks, we'd like to leave these words in.'?
We are simply talking about a company here, which will always be forced to follow the laws of the land of whatever country it choses to operate in. If there was a country that had legal child porn and a company that peddled it wanted to operate in your country, you can be damn sure you wouldn't want them to have that content.
Obviously the situation is based around what we determine are more timid, yet important examples of free speech censorship, but we are talking about a foreign country with international rights. It is not Microsoft's place to spark a rights battle with a sovern country, and they damn sure will chose to continue operations in China.
If you have a problem with China's free speech laws, well... call em up and tell em or something...
Th1s 1s ex4ctly why this 4ggress1on will not stand, m4n.
Ah, but how do you know that they weren't dragged away and shot the moment they were off-camera? ;o)
So.. it has come to this
... that the dollar is more important than freedom or principles.
I guess it shouldn't be any surprise the Microsoft and other companies are anxious to help China maintain and strengthen it's totalitarian government, since it's the government that controls the purse strings.
It should give all of us in this country pause. Microsoft obviously has no issues with a government that has it's army fire upon students demonstrating for democracy. It's a short step from there to helping an American administration (of whichever party) do the same thing in this country. Considering how much money Microsoft was saved by the hand slap it got from Justice after being convicted of monopolistic practices, I would assume Bill Gates feels deeply indebted to the present administration.
Apparently, even Google, a company that claims it's unofficial motto is "Dont' Be Evil", doesn't feel like it has a responsibility to behave ethically.
It wasn't defense spending in the U.S. that caused the fall of Communisim in the USSR, it was blue jeans and walkmans -- simple economics. It became glaringly obvious to everyone in communist states that they were being deprived the advances that were cheap to citizens of democratic countries.
The Chinese have never been stupid or foolish. They learned from the lesson of the USSR and they are modernizing their economy in order to prevent a similar revolution. It is unfortunate that companies like Microsoft, Google, and Walmart are so quick to help them.
China is still a totalitarian government. China allows the use of slave and prison labor to produce goods which show up on American store shelves. Ever wonder why goods made in China are so inexpensive?
The American government and businesses are not just hurting the Chinese people by helping such a government; they are hurting American citizens. We are losing jobs. We are becoming a nation that produces nothing but Reality TV shows. Worse the lesson to our children is that freedom only counts until someone offers you more money.
These companies argue that by doing business with China, they are improving the lives of ordinary Chinese. How can we trust them? There have been numerous stories about the use of prison labor and child labor to produce goods bound for America. Can they really know that they are helping the average Chinese when China does not have a free press that can report how things actually are? I sincerely doubt that the workers in China are getting the same wages and benefits that American workers would get. I wonder if they are even getting enough more to substantially change their lives.
If you are going to stand for freedom, you have to do it all the time, not just when it's financially attractive.
-All that is gold does not glitter - Tolkien
www.ra
Next up, US government asks slashdot to censor the words "patriot act", "national ID", and "revolution". Please understand this is for your own protection, as our government has strictly the people's interersts in mind.
So i can't find freedom or democracy on the web ,but can i still get my porn? because thats where i draw the line
I have a feeling that any success with that would be caught by M$ pretty fast!
Note: Those letters in "Dem0cr@cy" and "Freed0m" are zeros and not an "o".
Enjoy the freedomopression, use WindowsXP today!
Seriously, this should be viewed as a really really awful thing on the part of MS. Isolate those effing ChiComs until they're ready to live up to the same standards of freedom as the nations of the civilized world.
I know that the advertisements on everyone sees after the main article text are not always the same, but when I first looked at this article, I saw a big Visual Studio .NET advertisement from Microsoft.
So, is it very enlightened of Microsoft to sponsor an article that implies their own misconduct, or will the ad be pulled when they figure it out?
Signatures are a waste of bandwi (buffering...)
The chineese government knows that microsoft will do anything reasonable to avoid offending it. By the way, freedom is Z©--R, and democracy is -Zå.
perhaps the cops parsed it as an assignment ergo the people WANT Bush == Hitler
There are places where the networks are not touching,and there are places where they are-Boeing's Lori Gunter
All laws are not equal, and just because a bunch of people form together as a corporation to get the various legal benefits, doesn't mean that the rules of morality suddenly don't apply.
Of course these censorship laws are the laws of a powerful soveriegn nation. If they were the laws of a Masonic Lodge or D&D Group we wouldn't give a shit. The point is, MS is not on our side when it comes to the conflict between the dictates of a small pack of 90 year old mass murders and the human progress of a billion people.
Sure, but if it started accurately describing in detail the security systems at the white house it would be a different matter. This country has a long history of censorship in the name of civil defense. After all, "Lose lips sink ships!"
Insert Generic Sig Here:
Microsoft is censoring blogs on MSN China. The words 'freedom', 'democracy' and 'demonstration' are reportedly among the words being blocked.
This is bad news for an oppressive regime. How are finks, spooks, and informers supposed to do their dirty business if they can't:
A. Praise Democracy, in order to entrap dissidents;
B. Condemn Democracy, in order to rally more finks, spooks, and informers?
-kgj
-kgj
Blocking information in this century is really a grave mistake. We've finally reached a stage where the entire data is at our fingers - if Douglas Adams were alive, he'd say Earth has finally finished calculating the ultimate question. Why is a govt. afraid of it's online content? Sounds like those Nazi days of Germany when it was previleged to have uncensorsed information about the rest of the world. The Chinese need to do something.
W...T...F?
/. in every thread.
How do you go from Microsoft turning a blind eye to a Chinese government who is oppressive, brutal, and evil to saying that we're next up for such a regime in the US. Either you are a complete idiot or you believe the anti-US drivel that spews out on
you mean like how they didn't censor that reporter who was subsequently fired for breaking that story on the quran in guantanimo bay, that was later verified by the FBI as true?
I worked as an office junior for a guy once who refused to buy branded web hosting once he found out about free sites - in this case MSN Spaces. The weblogs took about 2/3 of the time to setup and when they worked were pretty close to the quality of the original... when they worked. Between increased maintenance, broken freedom and destroyed democracy I can't see how the TCO was much less than double the price of GoDaddy.
Really?! M$ is censoring the Chinese?!
Amercians and most of the western world just don't seem to get it. If there is money to be made we shall turn a blind eye... but if there is political currency to be spent and oil to be had you must pound third-world countries into submission.
Sad thing is MOST Americans could give a rat's ass!
Keep on rockin' in the free world!
...you wouldn't support companies who do business with China. If you had any morality, you'd be dead.
it took this to shed light on that for you? No offense but I see THAT as sad. If you haven't figured it out now, the major corporations in America do everything in their power to limit our rights in our own country. Whatever it takes to make more money, that's always been their motto.
This reminds me of an interview I heard with a Soviet era Russian general. The interviewer asked some question about how all the Russian people were brainwashed by government propaganda. The general laughed and said "That is the difference between Americans and Russians. Our government publishes propaganda and we say 'Look, it is government propaganda.' Your government publishes propaganda and you believe it."
Insert Generic Sig Here:
Didn't they learn there lesson yesterday?
Paying taxes to buy civilization is like paying a hooker to buy love.
As it is, people in China will find ways round the censorship, but the Tiananmen Square protests pointed out to their government that they need to improve the standard of living. Enough so that their people will be as disinterested in the governance of their country as those in many western democracies.
That's why I'm disgusted that Microsoft is eagerly cooperating with their censorship.
Where's the Kaboom?
There's supposed to be an Earth-shattering Kaboom.
If I understand the Google advertising system correctly, advertisers (such as Microsoft) just state how much they're willing to spend on the advertising, whilst some Google code looks at the content of a page which has signed up for advertising and decides which ads would be most suitable.
In this case, we have a webpage which is talking about Microsoft, so Google's code has probably determined that it would be a good place for a Microsoft advert.
Don't take the above poster too seriously. He doesn't.
Maybe some linux distrib could have free world names:
Debian democracy
Gentoo tiananmen square massacre
Mandriva voting rights
Fedora free speech
I'll do it for cheesy poofs.
I'd bet money that half of you people who see nothing wrong with MS capitulating to the totalitarian desires of China bashed the shit out of IBM for it's activities during WWII.
"Gold still represents the ultimate form of payment in the world." - Alan Greenspan, 1999
I don't think this latest tid-bit should be shocking to anyone. The Chinese have been doing this since they were first discovered by other races.
The Chinese, for whatever reason, struggle greatly to maintain a strictly controlled identity and culture. It one way, you can understand this because they have a huge population spread out over a huge country that has many, many different countries bordering them, all trying to trade and interact with them. If there were no controls, China would become a giant meltingpot mess like the US, which no cultural identity and a fading pride. On the other hand, the Chinese people have so much to offer and so many wonderful things for the world to see and do and hear, but we will never get to because of the laws. It's a double-edged sword.
China (as well as many other countries held in the same government style) fails to see that this kind of control is like a clamp around an axel of a wheel. The clamp keeps the wheel in line, but if you clamp too hard, the wheel doesn't spin so easily and starts to have problems. You can still have the clamp, but just loosen it up a bit and the wheel spins nicely and stays in line.
I don't believe that, if these censorships were removed, the Chinese would go balistic. There's too much ingrained social structure. Those in power could still be in power, but with a little release, their country could bloom into a great thing. If you try to control everything, then you end up controlling nothing but the control itself. Everything else fades away. In essence, China is killing itself by trying to keep itself.
As for Microsoft, everyone trying to play the "There goes Microsoft again" card, just needs to shut up. When you deploy a company/product in another country, it is in no way unusual nor unexpected to conform to that country's beliefs and laws. If you have to change your product to make it sell, you do. If you make cars that drive on the left, and you sell to a country that drives on the right, you change your design for that country. If you sell to a country that doesn't allow a word to be in a product, you remove that word.
I think it's a good thing that Microsoft is not trying to start an ethtical/racial/political war here. They have altered their product for the Chinese market to conform with that market. This is not strange, this is not Microsoft unique.
If you're having a problem with the human-rights issues in China, Microsoft should not be your first step for a gripe.
So long as these morals you speak of are not imbedded into the trade laws of your country, how can you expect a formation designed to generate profits (read: Microsoft corporation) to be more morally rightous then the laws of your representative government. If this activity angers you, dont go shouting at microsoft, maybe you should parcipitate in that human progress of yours.
Even if you like Microsoft's products, enjoy your XBox, don't care about their monopolistic practices, etc., this has got to make you cringe.
I don't think you'll find anyone who supports this. But I would assume Microsoft is banking on people not caring enough to do anything about it.
Except for ending slavery, the Nazis, communism, & securing American independence, war has never solved anything.
If only /. editors would censor dupes. Sigh...
I hadn't the slightest objection to his spending his time planning massacres for the bourgeoisie... (P.G. Wodehouse)
>Why do they censor these words? Why the
>governement does that?
Because they found out that as long as they add "to combat terrorism", they can get away doing anything....
"Meanwhile, China continues to be a major source of new American immigrants, and remains a big prize for companies wishing to help it along with building a more capitalistic society." The article asks if there a way for Microsoft in particular, and global businesses in general, to avoid this sort of controversy - whether, that is, they stay agnostic regarding specific political issues, domestic and international. The answer would seem to be: "No!"
Yes, exactly. If I posted a story called "saleenS281 eats babies for lunch" in a major news magazine and you came to my editors demanding justice, I would be fired right away. That's not censorship; that's just a reaction by a company to its employee.
For more information, click here.
Conan O'Brian to do a "What if they had a child" with Bill Gates and the leader of china..... :P
Would they name it Pho Kim Longhorn?
Microsoft (or anybody else for that matter) has no control over what pages their ads show up on. They are guaranteed a certain number of displays per month or whatever, nothing more.
I don't think Microsoft could do anything to please you; you'd still find something to whine about you sandle wearing hippy.
Wow! I have never heard such ****** news! How can ******** still be allowed in ****** countries?
Mojo Turbo http://theway.blog.org
We Are Microsoft -- your political, sociological and economical distinctiveness will be added to our own... Resistance is futile...
Peter Corcoran
So much for "American" values of freedom and democracy abroad! Microsoft seems to be spreading freedom and democracy in China in much the same way as the Bush administration does in the Middle East.
http://www.stanhopecentre.org/blogs/iraqmedia/
Perhaps MSN could incorporate "official news agencies" throughout the world into a vast repository of MS-Truth - e.g., MS-TASS. Oooh, I sense a "market opportunity" here!
Blech.
My comment in an earlier and similar thread:c id=12794325
http://apple.slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=152425&
American companies have never stood for freedom or even democracy.
Read about the history of the United Fruit Corporation in Central America; they actually deposed a democratic government and installed a sympathetic dictator!
Can you see Walmart quitting China? I think not.
I was refering to the gernal mass media.. the fact that the government feels it is there job to judge the morals of the people bothers me.> yes they are not as bad.. i never said they where. i am just pointing out that they are not without blame.. so before we go attacking china about it.. why not stop and see what we are doing.
'...if only "Jumping to a Conclusion" was an event in the Olympics.'
Why? i want the freedom to murder as much as possible unhindered. are you trying to limit my freedom to do so? seriously the thing with freedom is that open-ended overarcing freedom will always anger someone. you say i shouldnt have the freedom to murder in foreign countries. So right there you are advocating restrictions based on your personal views.
Every civil society limits some freedoms, when those freedoms encroach upon the rights of others (e.g. the "freedom" to murder others). Those who believe in liberty hold freedom of speech as the most essential freedom that underlies all others, and we believe in the right of individuals to "life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness" when it doesn't violate those liberties for others. You're suggesting your "freedom" is to make proffit off of the oppression of others, but that's exactly the sort of thing that is antithetical to true liberty.
"You call it a new way of thinking; I call it regression to ignorance!" -- Operation Ivy
This is how China gets away with human rights abuses. If the rest of the G7 and all major corporations said that they wouldn't trade or deal with China unless they allowed freedom of speech, China would be a changed place. The problem is that companies like Microsoft don't care about human rights, and are only focused on improving share value. So why make a stand and cost the company money, when they can do whatever they want and continue to blame the Chinese government for human rights abuses.
Microsoft, the US government, and many other countries/companies around the world are tacitly supporting the Chinese regime. Any opposition to human rights abuses is all talk:
Microsoft and the US: No
China: Make me
Microsoft and the US: No
This is my last post.
[6th Estate]
You have been found to use Censored words in your post. This is against the Terms of Use. In accordance to Rule 18 of Policy 802.1.1.g.1 you will be termi^H^H^H^H^Hbanned.
Thank you for your understanding.
Gravity Sucks
Of course if you really want to get all tinfoil hat about it, then the best way to censor/control people is to let them believe they are not being censored/controlled. If you can pull that off then you have complete control.
Just look at what the current US administration has done in the name of the war on terror. The TSA and Homeland Security can get away with almost anything because "the people" have been convinced that it is all for their own good.
I am Slashdot. Are you Slashdot as well?
That's right. I said Meh.
I find no problem with Switzerland accepting dead Jew teeth (the gold crowns, actually) for Swiss Francs. Nor do I have a problem with the Vatican trading with the Third Reich.
Suck it down, bitch. YOU are next.
At least they have a voice, even if it's a censored one. Would taking that away be any better?
Yes, China has a disgusting government, but it's not maintainable with the direction they're moving in. Even with the censorship, this gives people the ability to say something.
It's not just Microsoft. The world doesn't care about what China's doing, because there's nothing to stop them. If people cared about human rights, the olympics wouldn't be in Beijing in 2008.
If you are being serious, that is what China always does. Kind of like if you live in China and show any kind of support for an independant Taiwan then your family might "disappear".
Communism, plain and simple.
And before you mod down, I was just trying to answer what looked like a legitimate question, not add fuel to the "flamebait"-modded post.
Without sounding like a troll, I have the feeling that many people don't really care about rights here or abroad so long as the dividends are paid. If it comes down to meeting The Street estimates or taking a stand against human rights abuses, most investors will choose the latter -- some because they don't care, some because they don't believe it is their corporation's place to be involved in that.
I recall asking my father if he would buy $.10 hamburgers from a restaurant that used slave labor. Without blinking he said, "Of course". I guess so long as it is their jackboot on someone else's face, they won't have any problems with the system.
Recall that Microsoft, as a publicly traded corporation, has a fiduciary responsibility to make as much profit as possible without doing anything illegal. You can bet your bottom dollar that if a pro-active stance regarding China decreases profits, the directors will be replaced by those who will change that policy.
So prison labor doesn't exist in the US, according to you? None so
blind as those who will not see... Oh, I get it, prison labor is
OK when upstanding Yanqui capitalists use it; it's only those pesky
little yellow commie monkeys using it that's wrong. Right.
When exactly did slashdot become another libertoonian wingnut
cesspit? Anybody know?
China is "Socialist" government... when they the law to censor people, that is good.
Microsoft is "Capitalist", so when they obey the laws that "Socialists" put in place to censor people, they are bad.
Of course, if Microsoft refused to obey the Chinese laws, the opinion on Slashdot would be "evil capitalists, threatening the sovernty of 'Socialist' China".
Basicly, the perfect world according to the Slashdot crowd is a world where a totalitarian one world government controls all economy, media, and everything else in the world, except Apple (because all capitalism is evil, except Apple who are "totaly rad!").
If we cease business with China, we must also cease business with Taiwan in order for the ban to be effective. After the Tiananmen Square Incident, we Americans froze or curtailed our investments in mainland China in order to punish Beijing. Our efforts were completely thwarted by the mercenary Taiwanese. During and after the Tiananmen Square incident,Taiwanese investments in mainland China continued to grow at double-digit rates; the Taiwanese continued to give, to Beijing, any money and technology that we refused to give to Beijing.
The Taiwanese are no better than mercenary animals.
We are not nearly as bad as the Taiwanese. Remember that we actually implemented economic sanctions against China in the 1990s. Numerous American groups were and are engaged in a boycott of Chinese products and have demonstrated loudly and vociferously against the occupation of Tibet.
By contrast, in Taiwan, the Taiwanese teach their kids that Tibet should rightfully be an integral part of mainland China. The Taiwanese consitution states so.
Here is the clincher. The Taiwanese have voluntarily invested more than $100 billion into more than 50,000 businesses in mainland China. More than 1 million Taiwanese have voluntarily emigrated to mainland China to live and work.This alone is enough to make me seriously consider open source. Any coporate entitiy that is complicit to the supression of human rights and free speach to such a degree is evil. That goes for Google too. I know that sounds extreem, but really. Think about it. We have two notable companies basically turning their attention the other way in the pursuit of profit, one of which has professed publically to be "the good guy company". You can't have it both ways. Either you're the good guys and support free speech or you really just don't give a damn and chase after the phrase "Show me the money".
I used to not give a crap about opensource and the like, but from this moment on, Microsoft and Google are on my shit-list.
You need a FREE iPod Nano
Could someone in the know explain how this happens from a business perspective? What are the benefits to Microsoft and others for complying, or the results of not complying?
This isn't complicated, they do it for money.
If they comply: They do business there, and make money.
If they don't: No business, no money from that market.
You can't take the sky from me...
I guess this could be a valid attempt to keep the people calm in reguards to the most recent debate with Korea.
... that the dollar is more important than freedom or principles.
Of course they have, it wasn't even a choice.
Corporations are legally obliged to maximize shareholder value, given the choice between money, freedom, and democracy they legally, and one could even argue morally, must choose money. For PR reasons they try to help freedom and priciples if it's convenient and pay as much lip service as they can but that's as far as it goes. The reason the shareholders come together isn't freedom or democracy, it's money, for a the leaders of a corporation to impose values of freedom and democracy on shareholders who have only exhibited an interest in profit is unethical and bait for a lawsuit.
This isn't a troll or a left wing rant, it's just how it works, corporations due to their single minded determination can be great for the economy and they can be generous if it fulfills their self-interest. But at the end of the day if you create an entity for the express purpose of earning money you shouldn't be surprised when at the cost of things like freedom and democracy it starts doing exactly that.
I stole this Sig
This link would be worth reading:
blog entry which delves into this further
Except for ending slavery, the Nazis, communism, & securing American independence, war has never solved anything.
This is not aimed at you personally. Whenever China and Human Rights appear on slashdot I find the post is more often than not actually about politics rather than Human Rights
/rant
Before you start throwing stones at China consider that over the past 30yrs the Chineese Govt has dragged 600 million people above the $1/day poverty line and significantly improved the standard of living of hundreds of millions more. Not so long ago parents in the West used to say "eat your dinner, there starving in China", (well at least mine and J.Lennon's did). If we were to confiscate the income of the richest 500 people in the world we could do the same thing for another billion.
Does this mean China is a nice place to live? do the means justify the ends? (re: "enemy combatants", "confiscation from the rich", "population control"). You can argue about history, politics and philosophy all day, but one thing remains indisputable. Over the last few decades they have done more than anyone else to relive the needless suffering of 1/5th of the worlds poorest people. The worldwide reduction in the incidence of starvation since the 1960's is almost entirely due to Chineese peasants having enough to eat. Personally I don't think the Chineese give a flying-fuck about what MS thinks because they will simply pull the plug if they don't play nice.
And did you exchange a walk on part in the war for a lead role in a cage? - Pink Floyd.
Of course they're part of the political system. ALL Americans are part of the bloody system - that's the point.
Now, now ... I know corporations (we all) act in their own enlightened self-interest ...
But this should remind us all of how important it is to watch out for self-appointed (market-appointed) "gatekeepers" of information.
Bill Gates on the subject of freedom.
Serves them right.
sigs, as if you care.
Do the Chinese use different words for "freedom" and "demonstration" depending on context? "Freedom" and "demonstration" can be used in contexts outside of politics, for example: "This fashion style allows the wearer more freedom of movement." "The experiment was a demonstration of how light refracts."
Proverbs 21:19
The code is based on software they developed for internal use. They just had to substitute "freedom" for "open source", "democracy" for "union", and "demonstration" for "overtime".
Who would win this election: Andrew Weiner vs Andrew Weiner's weiner.
I'm assuming that they are banning Chinese-language words. Doesn't Chinese have synonyms? Also, there are many different ways to represent the Chinese language (e.g., traditional Chinese, simplified Chinese, and the various phoneticizations of the many dialects). Is Microsoft really going to go to the trouble of filtering all of these words?
Case in point... how many people here loved the movie Hero, a thinly veiled national epic to promote tourism and the idea that a single cultural identity was more important than individual life, liberty and freedom?
Hero churned my stomach. It was so obviously nationalistic jiingoism designed to make both the chinese and westerners accept oppressive nationalism.
China has it down, they always have had it down, and they are probably going to have us all down in the end.
Precisely. The only way to relieve a corporation of that obligation is to get Congress to impose sanctions. That such sanctions are not currently in place indicates that the nation believes that engagement improves the lives of ordinary Chinese people. U.S. corporations are just the tools of that policy.
What do you mean they cut the power? How can they cut the power, man? They're animals!
As much as I hate to defend Microsoft, there is a point to be made here. China's government requested the censure. I'm sure if MS dragged their feet on it, they would have been added to "The Great Firewall of China."
What if a pharmaceutical company pulls out of China just because it's morally right and its chief executive is a strong supporter for "freedom"? You can't see things in black and white.
I think perhaps that you, like your friends, may be pushing for an unreasonable and untenable version of freedom in the world. Your upbringing probably differs from mine, of course, but where I am bred people don't bother about politics and political freedoms (basically, we live comfortably and can watch nearly all the porn we want to); to put it another way, they don't pretend to have altruistic causes like some of their American friends.
Pumping some money into the Chinese economy means that at least some money will go to the Chinese people. This is better than pumping absolutely no money into the Chinese economy, which means that the government will be squeezing the people a lot more than they are now. Ditto for medicines - better some, better a presence in the China than none. Please be less idealistic; at the very least, the Chinese people will be hurt less.
Of course somehow this thread turned into a "MS is evil because they do business with China in the first place". Besides the fact that the vast majority you do business with China (many computers have parts made in China), I could also contend that allowing the Chinese government to thrive on Linux is immoral. Unless of course the GPL was updated to dissallow any dictatorship from benefiting from the software.
There is no longer anything that can be done with computers that is nontrivial and clearly legal. -- Paul Phillips
i dont find my example too particularily pleasing to myself either, but the point is that there will always be limits to freedoms within some capacity. imagine the class system generated in democracies today. vast separation of rich and poor has once again occured within the US. China has, although modestly in terms of the individual, overall saved the lives of untold millions of Chinese through abolition of starvation within their own country. They have done this through strict adherence to equalized rationing and work ethics, promoted by their socialist viewpoint. Expouting liberty is fun so long as you ignore historical trends showing the likelihood of the system gravitating towards class separation, which is exactly what they have been striving to remove themselves from, ie, communism. So long as the spectre of capitalism is pushing at their doors, they require some way to stop people from being lured to the idea of 'get rich fast! join capitalism!' This theory has enough flashy appeal to seduce the average, self-centric human being. If it were put into practice in China, only a handful would see the BMW's and LCD TV's, the rest would be right back into absolute poverty.
... that the dollar is more important than freedom or principles.
I bet they'd be eager to know how to run a company and pay employees using freedom.
with actions like this they will have to go back to referring to them as french fries, not freedom fries.
The problem is, is that if Microsoft doesn't censor itself, then some other company will come in an do it. So, in that sense, Microsoft is being business-savvy. On the other hand, if all like-companies could ban together and refuse to censor per China's wishes, then China would be in a corner. But we all know that would never happen.
Health Insurance Quotes
Hm, no.
The lesson is more like "no use bitching about things YOU can't change."
You posting that, is it gonna change China? No. Is MS backing out of a deal going to change China? No. They will find someone else to do it instead.
Might as well get in there, get your piece of the pie, and THEN try to change them once you are well established. MS can't do that shit here, but they COULD do it in China.
Get it?
We have secretly replaced these Slashdot mods' sense of humor with a rusty nail. Let's see if they notice!!
Don't you? An 8 billion dollar trade deficit, oil prices skyrocketing with soaring China demand, theirs is the fastest growing economy... All this and yet, NOTHING has changed about the way they govern.
How long will it be until they start dictating terms to the U.S.? Like the money we give to terrorists who happily sell us more oil, I think we're funding our own doom.
"...Well, there's egg and bacon; egg sausage and bacon; egg and spam; egg bacon and spam; egg bacon sausage and spam..."
I recall the many slashdot posts praising China as being one of the enlightened nations combating the evils of closed source software by moving to their own brand of Linux ("RedFlag" Linux, I believe it is called). Where was all of the concern for human rights back then?
Oh, but today Brazil has replaced China as the slashdotters' preferred utopia. Take a close look at Brazil's society, and you'll see the oppression in that society as well.
-- "I never gave these stories much credence." - HAL 9000
That doesn't have anything to do with MSN blogs in China! If you don't like the embargo, fine. But it is hardly a valid counter-point in a discussion on whether or not MS should comply with the Chinese government. In fact, the poster you replied to didn't even mention Cuba. If you have an opinion on something and you want people to take it seriously, it is best to discuss it at an appropriate time. Lashing out at people who didn't even bring it up just to make your point known is going to detract from your argument and the way people listen to you (if they listen at all).
-KD
What if the Chinese Gov had requested that for every blog posted on MSN Spaces, Bill Gates had to kill a dog?
He should do it, right? After all, that's respecting the laws of a country you're operating in and that's what Microsoft believes should be done.
I don't see how it's any different. Both are proactive moves and both stand against most people's moral standards. I think Microsoft's management would see things far differently if the results were right there in front of them. They're actively aiding in suppressing human rights, as defined by their own country. For this reason, and because Microsoft is not a military or political power (give it a few years), the only morally acceptable action would be to stay out of the markey.
t wasn't defense spending in the U.S. that caused the fall of Communisim in the USSR, it was blue jeans and walkmans -- simple economics.
It might be argued that the demise of Communism in the Soviet Union was due to their internal history. All the millions of people sent to slave labor camps and the purposeful dislocation of entire ethnic groups. Plus the deliberate starvation that developed by the conversion of productive farms to collectives according to political theory. And the ruthless supression of any common sense dissent that disagreed with the current political theory. Plus the huge slaughter of World War II.
I suspect that the Soviet Union would have fallen even if they didn't have any external resistance from the West. The people themselves were simply worn out.
For the West to claim that their huge corrupt 'defense expenditures' (which primarily serves to give government funds to large corporations that are the largest campaign contributors) or clothing styles were responsible for ending the USSR is self-serving and absurd.
i wonder if MS would of sold that in 1940 to anyone who wanted it ?
I sincerely doubt that the workers in China are getting the same wages and benefits that American workers would get.
Well, duh. That's their compenitive advantage. That's why we want to use their labor. And it doesn't matter that they're not getting the same wages and benefits as US workers would get. All that matters is whether they're getting more wages and benefits than they would get if we weren't buying those goods from them.
Unless you believe that the Chinese population is too small (!) to meet all the internal labor demands, we're creating jobs that otherwise wouldn't exist.
So, what. Instead of writing "democracy" could they simply type "(censored)" . That works
every month...
Apparently, even Google, a company that claims it's unofficial motto is "Dont' Be Evil", doesn't feel like it has a responsibility to behave ethically.
thecorporation.com
Everyone can have more freedom if they didn't have any attraction to their property. If there is any thing that holds a man (being male or female) from upholding freedom, then that thing needs to be broken down or sold. Jesus the Christ advocated selling all your properties and effects so you could follow him to bear witness in His Court. It's no different then as it is now; modern technologies are a drug. People want a number in exchange for some casual pleasure that was always free but too lazy to utilize the knowledge. It is extremely difficult to get a job without a phone number; in a world of freedom, you can't even work for your hire peacefully (responsibly) in full anonymity. People today are more worried about their retirement today, and force others to worry about their retirement by compelling a voluntary Social Security enumeration. All the ussurpations have been caused by people not thinking in the NOW, and fearing an unknown event in the future that they are full capable of responding to if they weren't such cowards.
NOW is all that matters. Tomorrow has value only to bankers looking to profit from your efforts today. If every United States (a federal corporation) employee protested some action by peacfully quit, sell their possessions, and live in their cars, then the U.S. Army or U.S. Navy or U.S. Marines or related non-party to the Constitution will swoop down on everyone to slave them one at a time. Face the facts: United States is revived Roman Empire with necessary hotfixes and patches -- everyone is not allowed to defend themselves and are forced to live in that civilian life. The truth is so recent, that court disputes have proved that Policey enforcement "officers" have no duty to protect and serve. This is an ussurped country, where there are no more de jure state Citizens, but a world of citizens of the United States having no law patent to the Will of Rights.
Our Satan is at Washington D.C, as well as Vatican City. First man to throw His Rock and crumble those two obelisks will get freedom to a bunch of civilians that eat, breath, and sleep their lazy slave ass all day for pleasure principles.
... the idea that capitalism == freedom.
We apologize for the inconvenience.
Remove "American" from the subject header and repace with "any"; not just Americans here but companies in general; there's plenty of this going around inside and outside the US so don't limit it. Hell, at least its not _weapons_, which some EU members are proposing to do.
... that the dollar is more important than freedom or principles.
It is sad that you haven't yet realized that this behavior is not new, nor limited to American companies.
All of these things are true. All of them happened in the 30's and 40's. The Soviet Union got started in 1917 (though its wars with the White Russians and France/UK/USA/Japan dragged on for several more years). The Soviet Union collapsed in 1989.
Assuming the collapse of the Soviet Union were due solely to the things you listed as the cause, why did it take better than 40 years to collapse?
Are you, in fact, asserting that the Soviet Union was worse off every year from 1945 to 1989? That's ridiculous.
'defense expenditures' (which primarily serves to give government funds to large corporations that are the largest campaign contributors)
Of course. Our defense expenditures weren't about beating the Soviet Union. They were about making the Soviets beat themselves.
The proximate cause of the Soviet collapse was the increase in American defense spending in the 80's. The Soviet Union found itself unable to keep matching our military increases, and nearly bankrupted themselves trying.
Fortunately for all of us, Gorbachev was in charge in the waning days of the Soviet Union. I think it likely that his predecessors in the Kremlin would have started a shooting war rather then collapse quietly.
I suspect that the Soviet Union would have fallen even if they didn't have any external resistance from the West.
Unlikely. Hard as it may be to believe, the Soviets enjoyed a higher standard of living than pre-Soviet Russia had ever managed. One must remember that before the Revolution, the Russians were mostly peasants (80%? 90%? somewhere in there), living much the same way that peasants had lived in the Middle Ages.
Lack of an external threat (in the military sense, which is probably not sense that most use the word) would have only increased the Soviet standard of living and the general happiness of the people of the Soviet Union.
Note that this is not meant to imply that the Soviets were happy with their government. Though most were. Nor is it meant to suggest that the Soviet economy worked well. It didn't. But it worked BETTER than what went before in Russia.
"I do not agree with what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it"
"from the not-a-surprise-folks dept."
Hrm... a dupe posted by none other than Taco... nope, not a surprise at all.
Hey editors, note the abuse of overrated. You guys are no better than China.
And I'd like to see them run a company like that without freedom.
Freedom is an even more fundamental component of the market economy than money. Without money, you could still barter; without freedom, there'd be no market.
Um .. hate to burst your bubble, but *all* companies are about money.
So let's make it about money. How about a large export duty for all products made by companies that produce products or services that support political censorship in countries with repressive government? And perhaps an additional tax--say 100%--on domestic products sold by such companies?
>
I bet they'd be eager to know how to run a company and pay employees using freedom.
I didnt realise those chinese dollars were the only thing propping microsoft up.
Darth --
Nil Mortifi, Sine Lucre
you are being SO naive, it hurts. The USA trades DAILY with really nasty gummints all over the world.
Furthermore, the US gummint itself is doing really nasty things all over the world.
You drive a car? Where do you think the oil comes from? Some peace loving bunch of desert hippies?
You buy some sneakers? Who do you think made them? Some upper middle class suburbanite in a clean well lighted climate controlled office?
You buy your love a diamond ring? where do you think the diamond came from? Assembled in some pollution free factory in Middle America and dug from the earth by harmless robots?
EVERY purchase you make as a first world consumer has far reaching and devastating effects on other people and the environment. Your very lifestyle sits at the heart of an ignominious betrayal of the human spirit.
the difference is: I know this and I work to fight it as best I can - and I know that carping about China or Cuba isn't going to change things one bit. Yes they are despotic regimes, but Cuba's infant mortality rate is much better than the USA's and China's financing the federal debt so our idiot president can go pound the middle east and make the oil safe for the Chinese to buy - tool that he is.
RS
Shoes for Industry. Shoes for the Dead.
As opposed to censoring format perhaps?
You mean censor. Just plain censor.
Reminds me of the people marching with signs reading "BUSH = HITLER". The very fact they can march in public holding that sign and nothing happens to them proves that it isn't true.
Unless, of course, Bush is anywhere nearby. Then they are locked in cages which are labeled "free speech zones". Of course that inconvenient fact gets in the way of your shilling.
except it was a TRUE STORY. When you demand a reporters job when they reported a true story that you didn't want public, that's censorship. It's the government sending the exact same message: you report our dirt we come after you. Just because they didn't physically harm and/or imprison the reporter doesn't make it not censorshop.
The Taiwanese are no better than mercenary animals.
We are not nearly as bad as the Taiwanese. Remember that we actually implemented economic sanctions against China in the 1990s. Numerous American groups were and are engaged in a boycott of Chinese products and have demonstrated loudly and vociferously against the occupation of Tibet.
By contrast, in Taiwan, the Taiwanese teach their kids that Tibet should rightfully be an integral part of mainland China. The Taiwanese consitution states so.
Here is the clincher. The Taiwanese have voluntarily invested more than $100 billion into more than 50,000 businesses in mainland China. More than 1 million Taiwanese have voluntarily emigrated to mainland China to live and work.Unless, of course, Bush is anywhere nearby. Then they are locked in cages which are labeled "free speech zones". Of course that inconvenient fact gets in the way of your shilling.
And then they take the cages, and put them on trains and take the protestors to Gitmo where they're locked away forever and tortured right? Right?
What? They just let them GO?!? I doubt that if Hitler had his political enemies conveniently locked up in a cage he'd just let them go. Our US protestors for the most part willingly go in the cage, since they KNOW they'll be let out. Now what was your point again?
FYI: If I'm a shill for the establishment, so are you. It's just a different establishment.
All movements for social change begin as missions, evolve into businesses, and end up as rackets.
N/T
What? They just let them GO?!?
Let me see if I understand you correctly.
You are saying that it is perfectly ok to take people who are doing their patriotic duty to stand up and make their voices heard and lock them in cages miles away from the event which they are protesting so that their voices will not be heard?
You are saying that the first amendment is worthless.
You are saying that you believe that our leaders should be allowed to do anything that they want without being made to realise that a huge percentage of the population disagrees with them for very well though out reasons.
You are saying that our leaders have no responsibility whatsoever to respond to the will of the people, or even be aware of it.
You are saying all of these things are perfectly fine as long as they are eventually freed from their completely unconstitutional incarceration.
Wow. Why is it exactly that you want to live here rather than say China or somewhere where attitudes like yours are accepted rather than completely contrary to the purpose of this country?
Seriously, what the fuck is wrong with you?!?
FYI: If I'm a shill for the establishment, so are you. It's just a different establishment.
The only thing I demonstrated any support for was the right to free speech, which you are clearly dead set against.
If being a decent human being is shilling, then more power to me.
You are shilling for the purpose of getting everybody's rights stripped away. This includes your own.
Seriously, what the fuck is wrong with you?
I'm not saying ANY of that stuff you're putting in my mouth, Mr. strawman argument. The only thing I'm saying is that Bush is no Hitler. I'm *very much* in favor of free speech, and I don't think any protestors should be put in cages.
But to say that since some protestors are temporarily put in cages for security purposes during an event then therefore Bush is equivalent to Hitler is to engage in simple minded hyperbole that trivializes the millions of defenseless people systematically killed by Hitler and his goons.
That kind of talk doesn't reach anyone beyond the "OMG WTF NO BLOOD FOR OIL" crowd. If you want people to come around to your point of view it's counterproductive to spread the "Bush = Hitler" meme. People just tune it out, and think you're a whacko. In your case though, maybe they're right.
All movements for social change begin as missions, evolve into businesses, and end up as rackets.
I'm not saying ANY of that stuff you're putting in my mouth, Mr. strawman argument. The only thing I'm saying is that Bush is no Hitler. I'm *very much* in favor of free speech, and I don't think any protestors should be put in cages.
I never said that Bush was Hitler. You said that since people are allowed to carry signs saying that, that there is no problem.
I pointed out the fact that people are not allowed to carry such signs anywhere near him and instead are locked in cages for having the audicity to attempt to exercise their rights to free speech.
Your response was that since they are eventually let go that the fact that they were not allowed their right to free speech is not an issue.
So, I fail to see how I put anything in your mouth. That is what you said. There was no strawman.
But to say that since some protestors are temporarily put in cages for security purposes during an event then therefore Bush is equivalent to Hitler is to engage in simple minded hyperbole that trivializes the millions of defenseless people systematically killed by Hitler and his goons.
There you go again.
This has nothing to do with security. Its only possible purpose is to suppress free speech. Way to parrot the administrations bullshit. You seem quite eager to give up liberty in the name of security.
The comparisons between Bush and Hitler have nothing to do with the holocaust. The fact is that even if the holocaust had never happened Hitler still wouldn't be remembered as a great guy. He would be remembered for suppressing dissent. He would be remebered for painting patriotic protesters as traitors. He would be remembered for starting wars based on lies and propaganda.
You completely fail to understand what is being compared, and you fail to understand anything about the issue.
The fact is that there are lots of bad things about fascism. Your inability to recognize that is pretty amazing.
If you want people to come around to your point of view it's counterproductive to spread the "Bush = Hitler" meme. People just tune it out, and think you're a whacko. In your case though, maybe they're right.
Again. I never spread that meme, although you have no concept of what it is even about, and you seem to have no issue with free speech being violently and illegally suppressed.
All I said was that putting people in cages for having the audacity to exercise their right to free speech is contrary to the very idea of free speech.
You blindly argue against that point and call me a whacko for stating a simple tautology?!?
You aren't, by chance, one of those high school students recently surveyed that think the news should get government approval for everything they say are you?
My entire point in the very first post I wrote in the thread poked fun at the people who carry signs equating Bush with Hitler. If you don't take issue with that, why are you even replying?
All I'm arguing for is a little PERSPECTIVE. I never said there was no problem, that's you putting words in my mouth yet AGAIN. Throughout history there's been a lot of tyranny, and even today there are many, many countries that oppress their citizens much, much more than just by making them go protest in a fenced in area. Equating that with the worst mass murderers in history is completely ridiculous. Is it bad that the government makes protesters go in a fenced in area? Hell yes. Is it anything remotely worth being compared to Hitler's crimes? Absolutely not. I don't define "suppressing dissent" as making people protest in a designated area, I define it as "cutting their fucking tongues out". That isn't happening, and if it ever does, you can bet I'll be taking up arms against the government.
As for it not being about security, how many of those sign wielding morons do you think would like to take a shot at Bush? Someone threw a live grenade at his podium a few weeks ago. Don't be so quick to assume.
You aren't, by chance, one of those college students who read one book by Chomsky and thinks that everything he says is the revealed truth, are you?
All movements for social change begin as missions, evolve into businesses, and end up as rackets.
My entire point in the very first post I wrote in the thread poked fun at the people who carry signs equating Bush with Hitler. If you don't take issue with that, why are you even replying?
I was responding to one aspect of what you said with a very specific point. For whatever reason it took this long to get you to even acknowledge that point.
All I'm arguing for is a little PERSPECTIVE.
Fair enough, but I think you are totally missing the point of the people who are making that comparison. Nobody is saying Bush gasses Jews or murders 6 million people or anything like that.
What they are generally saying is that Bush's tactics are taken straight out of the Nazi playbook as far as propaganda, lies, pushing for wars against the will of the people etc. etc. etc.
I mean, I'm sure you've seen a number of the quotes here and other places from various high ranking Nazi officials which *exactly* parallel the tactics used by the Bush administration.
So you seem to be saying that until Bush starts gassing Jews that any such comparison is crazy and moronic whereas I am saying I don't think you even understand the comparison that is being made.
As for it not being about security, how many of those sign wielding morons do you think would like to take a shot at Bush?
I seriously doubt that anybody who was a real threat would advertise it like that.
Nonetheless, it doesn't change the fact that those people have a right to be there. What I think it is based on his statements, action, and general contempt for any contrary opinion is that he just likes to maintain his delusion that he has a mandate contrary to all the facts.
But that's just my opinion yada yada yada.
even today there are many, many countries that oppress their citizens much, much more than just by making them go protest in a fenced in area.
Sure, but I've never really given much credence to the idea that something is ok since it's worse other places. The telling point for me on this is that it's been a long time since anything that oppressive has happened here. The general trend in our history has been to greater freedom. A lot of people fought very hard to pull us this far ahead, and it seems like a real kick to their teeth to allow one single administration to drag us so far back without fighting back. I mean isn't that what patriotism is? That's what I was always taught growing up, and I come from a long time military family.
I define it as "cutting their fucking tongues out". That isn't happening, and if it ever does, you can bet I'll be taking up arms against the government.
I would argue that by that point it would be way too late for that. I think that if somebody sees it as a necessity to pull his tactics directly from the fascist playbook (on controlling the population, not genocide just to be sparkling clear) rather than by taking a position and supporting it with facts and reasoned arguments then that is the time to get rid of them, because they have established that they disagree completely with the principles that this country claims to believe in. But what do I know. I just have read a lot of history and I hold integrity to be a very high ideal.
You aren't, by chance, one of those college students who read one book by Chomsky and thinks that everything he says is the revealed truth, are you?,
No, I graduated some time ago and have only a vague idea of who Chomsky is. Isn't he a linguist or something? My remark was based on what seemed like your inability to recognize the whole cage thing as a bad thing, thanks for clearing that up.
...is such an idiot. I hear he's a free-market loving commie, socialist libertarian, china-loving, china-hating, m$-bashing, m$-astroturfing, linux-loving, bsd-loving, apple fanboi. He's such a contridiction that it's hard to believe he's one person.
I wash mah-self with a rag on a stick.