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Wired Strongarms Subscribers?
yali writes "Wired has apparently been sinking to some rather low tactics with ex-subscribers. Namely, siccing a collections agency on them. If you let your subscription run out, you might get one of these. Nerds beware." From the article: "First came the usual letters warning McMillan, 36, that his subscription was up and that he wouldn't get any more copies of Wired unless he ponied up some cash. Then Wired's correspondence took a different turn. In May, McMillan received a letter from North Shore Agency, a leading debt-collection firm. The letter, headed 'Please Respond,' said he owed $12 for his Wired subscription."
I just cancelled my subscription.
Oh crap I had a Wired subscription, it's a good thing I opted in for their "mischarge" insurance, it was a steal at only $11.99.
'wired' alright. Must be some pretty good sh*t too, by the looks :p
The Mothership
Egon was right, print is dead.
I had this happen to me. The thing is, I didn't even remember signing up for the magazine, but I did enjoy receiving it again. Until, one day I keep getting these really strongly worded letters. And the thing is, I haven't recieved a next copy yet. And this was 2 months ago! It really makes me have a bad taste in my mouth about it. Someone is making some customers very unhappy for a few extra bucks. Of course, we all know that Conde Nast is completely bankrupt.... they really need that extra 12 bucks.
"I don't want to start a holy war here..."
It's just a letter. Debt collection agencies try to sound tough, but they don't really have any teeth, do they? Don't they have to stop contacting you if you ask, just like telemarketers?
Visual IRC: Fast. Powerful. Free.
cc: attorney general
cc: better business bureau
I'm not paying your fraudulent bill. Stop harassing me.
Uhh that graphic linked on is dated "July 11, 2002" How is this recent news?
We already know it's plain stoopid - but isn't 'inertia' selling illegal in the US? If not - why not? (ok, I don't really expect a straight answer to that second question).
The Mothership
Never really liked the mag, to big on the adds!! Just another reason to surf the web for my geek news!!
...if they're address to Anonymous Coward?
Don't trust anyone under thirty.
So when is Slashdot going to do that with their subscriptions?
It's either on the beat or off the beat, it's that easy.
I moderate therefore I rule!
--
The people who got the letters agreed to a recurring subscription. They had to notify wired to get the subscription canceled.
always read the fine print!
Cancelling my subscription as well.
The SCO award for over-the-top business practices.
I used to like Wired years ago, but first their headline writers started sounding like some Supermarket Tabloid's. Now their marketing seems to have the same stench.
The oft-quoted "There's no such thing as bad publicity" was and is only true in Hollywood.
It is your responsibility to read your subscription agreement.
If you agree to a renewing subscription and do not pay it, you have only yourself to blame.
If you ignore any request for payment from any company even if its fraudulent you again have only yourself to blame if you do not challenge it.
Vermifax
Logout
He was on automatic renewal and didn't know it. Moral: read the fine print before sending the subscription card in.
Poster - could you make Wired sound any more evil? Or did you
not read their explanation either.
Looks like a scare tactic into making you pay for another subscription. The "debt" is what you owe if you wish your subscription to continue, not what you have past due. Doesn't say anything about reporting the debt to a collection agency. Also makes a statement about "not wanting you to miss another issue" which sounds like the mouth of a marketing person, and not a person trying to collect a debt.
..There's a-dooin's a-transpirin'
I've seen this tactic before. The 'collection agency' in question barely even exists, and certainly has no teeth. It's simply a very shady tactic, used by several magazines, to trick people into subscribing - sometimes they'll even send these notices to people who have never subscribed. Just garbage the letter and you'll be fine.
Paul Anderson
"I drank WHAT?!" -- Socrates
We were turned over to a collection agency for not paying an invoice from "Builder" magazine; a publication we had never subscribed to nor ever received even one copy.
:)
A letter from the local municipality's Prosecuting Attorney's Office settled their hash right away.
"Builder", christ, I hope they're out of business.
Collection agencies have absolutely NO teeth at all, they only thing they can do is send you scary looking letter and perhaps a few threatening phone calls.... But what are they gonna go send "Forget about it" sam's croneys over to break your kneecaps?
What's new here? The fact that Wired (or rather, an agent of Wired) does this? People have received letters like this from other magazines for decades. I wouldn't be suprised if Wired has been sending these out for the last 10 years.
In all honesty, Wired probably doesn't manage their subscription service. They hire some 3rd party to do it for them.
I remember when PC Gamer, Next Generation, Boot, etc used to send these out all the friggen time--- TO CHILDREN!
I don't like it either. It's one reason I only have 2 magazine subscriptions. The other companies have pissed me off...
94% of Repubs and 21% of Dems voted to renew the Patriot Act
I tried a subscription, sent in my cheque. Months go by, cheque not cashed, no mags. I try to call them... has anybody found their phone number? So I email them. They say they never got the cheque. So I send another. Poof, instantly both cheques are cashed, ON THE SAME DAY. Pissed, I email them. Every email I send goes absolutely ignored by Wired, including an attempt to cancel my subscription. So I suffered through two years of Wired. Can't say as I found anything worthwhile in there the whole time. They sent me renewal notices which I ignored just like they ignored me.
As far as I can tell, Wired is just a group of scammers.
I work for the Department of Redundancy Department.
...I have waded through perhaps three copies of Mired, and thought the articles were interesting. But the damned thing is a half-inch thick with ads! With no more content than the usual skinny magazine. With all of that revenue coming in, you would think they could whack the price, but no, it's no bargain.
I guess we can tell now just how well that sales model has worked out for them.
Don't trust anyone under thirty.
It's pretty easy to never have a problem from magazine companies...just sign up for magazines under a different name than your own...I did it all the time at college. If they don't know your real name, then they can't fraudulently bill you.
Seriously. Wired is written for and by the idiots who brought us the dot com bust. Seeing as how they couldn't come up with a profitable model for so much as a magazine... it must have seemed natural for them to stoop to low tactics to save their asses. Having fond memories of pulling the wool over the eyes of ignorant venture capitalists, they first imagined hiring Igor and Ivan from the local wing of the Russian Mafia to push up their bottom line (knock off PC World's writers or something). Instead of opting for a civilized, time-tested and honor bound solution, they opted to hire a collection agency.
Remember, collection agencies are run by people to psychotic to be real cops, or even bounty hunters. These are the sorts of people that use tactics like the ones discussed in Kevin Mitnick's book Art of Deception in order to track down people who owe other people money. Instead of breaking their legs like Ivan and Igor, they simply ruin your credit rating.
Performing sanity checks on your own beliefs is vital in avoiding poisoned koolaid.
I checked out their website and they have something about viagra for women. So what is thing called Wired?
CharlesJo.com
X Files + The O.C. = The 4400
Charles Jo
I wouldn't even ask, but if you read the article, after it was all said and done, when it was settled he turned down a free subscription still siting "no time to read it".
Seriously, does this guy like, not ever use the bathroom? I know reading in the can isn't for everyone, but damn. He could easily spend five minutes reading several pages every time he needs to drop the kids off at the pool. Unless he's one of those strange guys who goes for the "turbo shit" and like, completes the entire process in under something insane like two minutes including cleaning and belt bulkling...
I really think dude is just full of it. I mean, he probably disliked the magazine and canceled cause of that. There are so many ways to read a magazine...
- 5-10 minutes before you go to sleep.
- While you eat a meal (unless he eats, while driving a truck...)
- Bathroom (as said)
- While doing menal chores such as waiting on clothes to wash/dry etc
No time my ass
Aw Frell this
...bringing you last year's news the year after next!
Let's not forget that Wired would probably have been perfectly happy to continue this tactic, until the SF Chronicle started researching this article.
It's easy to get into the habit of thinking that the media is toothless, but in many ways, the light of publicity can still bring about change for the best.
They don't have your SSN, which means no matter what they say, they cannot do jack to your credit report.
If you are not sure of this or don't believe, simply go ask for a free copy of your credit report at Experian, Transunion, or whatever the third one was. Just say you're credit was used fraudulently, which they'll put your credit on alert (a good damned thing if you ask me) and send you a free report.
Don't sweat it, they just sound tough but can't do a single thing. If they do have your credit card number or bank number and then charge without your permission, you can get it back, just go to whatever got charged and dispute it.
Really, they can't do a thing, people just give in because it sounds all scary.
See: http://www.wired.com/news/feedback/
For new Wired magazine subscriptions e-mail subscriptions@wiredmag.com or call 800-SOWIRED (800-769-4733) inside the U.S. and Canada or 303-678-0354 from all other countries. Hey, it's a free call on their dime!
Public Relations, for a good time contact:
Kathy O'Reilly, Kathy.O'Reilly@lycos-inc.com,
Direct#: 781-370-3454
Snail Mail Wired News
660 3rd Street, 1st Floor
San Francisco, CA 94107
For the VoIP users:
Phone: 415-276-8400
Fax: 415-276-8500
I had a subscription to some computer magazine that went out of business an they transferred the remaining time -- which was like 5 years or something -- to Wired. Then they added about three more years and I don't even know why. Maybe all these free issues that I've gotten is why they're threatening other people for issues they never got. Wired is a very good magazine. They've come a long way from their flourescent pink print days.
Did they notify and get a consent from the subscribers that they will begin charging ?
What does your Credit Report look like?
I told them to cancel my subscription by letter, and also to go fuck themselves. I might have said a few other things related to less comfortable activities. I don't remember, it was a while ago.
Being a programmer, I was somewhat annoyed that Wired decided to spit in my eye by posting a huge front-page photo of an Indian woman with henna tattoos covering her hand. The headline said, more or less, "we're taking your jobs and there's nothing you can do about it, so ha ha".
My point of view was that since this was a magazine supposedly by and for techie geeks, it was extraordinarily rude of them to rub the outsourcing problem in our faces. Rude, insensitive, and hostile.
Fucking Wired. I hope they go out of business.
Farewell! It's been a fine buncha years!
A few months after I had left I got a note in the mail saying that it was time to pay my bill. WTF? I had closed out the account and had paperwork signed by them that it was all over.
I was about to ring them up and start bitching them out when I read the paper a little closer to discover that it was not a bill but a "Please Come Back" letter disgusied as a late bill. I tossed the thing in the trash and did not think twice about it.
But the story does not end there. Every few months after that I would get another one of these psudeo-bills in the mail. I just tossed these as well and went on about my life. As I mentioned that was a few years ago. In the meanwhile I have moved 4 times and I am still getting that damn snail mail spam.
At least I can use them to light a fire if I need to . Let's see you kids do that with your fancy email spam that's all the rage these days.
Share and Enjoy! (tm)
Blockbuster once called a collections agency on me for a $8.00 late fee. I have a policy of paying late fees only if/when I actually go back and rent another movie. In reality that's exactly what they want, another trip to the store. However calling a collection agency guaranteed that I'd be getting all my future DVDs from Netflix or PirateBay. I don't feel like I owe late fees, unless I wish to check out another DVD. Probably if I read the fine print, I'd realize Blockbuster views late fees differently. However, Blockbuster is on my shitlist forever none-the-less. They could have made more money from me, if they didn't get greedy.
Sending debt collections companies, or the appearance of them should be the last resort for seriously delinquent customers who are basically trying to steal (or are bankrupt). I'm not sure when it started that collections agencies became the guaranteed repeat business tool.
it used to be an okay magazine, and i loved some of their little boxes, like 'expired, tired, wired.' stuff like, 'cassette, CD, iPod' or 'html, xslt, xhtml.' the ones that were especially funny were ones repeated, like, 'battlestar galactica, star trek, battlestar galactica,' because they were so true. other than that, it was just the writers blabbering about how much they thought they knew about technology 5 years from now, and of course it was all just bullshit that sounded really cool to 12 year-old boys; it was sort of like popular mechanics but even LESS technical, with more of a focus on computers and gadgets in particular and the culture that surrounds them rather than the military's latest super-secret x-plane. it was just as stupid, though. I can't believe I subscribed for two years.
Take off every sig. For great justice.
I had subscribed for a few years, way back when the magazine was new... then I let the subscription expire.
Then about a year ago I started receiving issues again, which were completely unsolicited. I received about three of them, and then they stopped coming.
A little strange. I just assumed they wanted me to get reaquainted with the magazine, and hopefully resubscribe. They did not bill me for these issues.
I don't see what's the big deal. Dealing with collection agencies is very easy. Just write a simple letter giving the "account number" from the agency's dunning letter, and stating that you dispute the debt, that you request proof of the debt, and that you don't want to be contacted by telephone in writing.
Then, pay three bucks to send the letter by certified mail with return receipt. Unless you owe a lot of money, and the collection agency has some real paperwork to prove that, this is the last time you'll hear from them. The certified mail receipt makes sure that you can burn their ass off if they ever try to bother you again for no reason.
Although some might baulk at the three bucks, just keep in mind that it costs the collection agency more than that to send the letter off and process your response (someone has to go in, look up your account number in their system, and mark it off).
If everyone did that, the collection agencies will quickly go out of business.
I have every issue from 1.2 through last January and I realized I haven't read the previous six months of issues, so I intentionally allowed my subscription to lapse. I was shocked and furious when I received the collection letter. Interestingly enough, they were all set with the voice-mail-hell "If you have allowed your subscription to end, press 1."
I had considered continuing my banner subscription run, but once I got that letter I swore I wouldn't go back.
By the way, here's their nasty cover:
l
http://www.wired.com/wired/archive/12.02/full.htm
Now, tell me that's not completely obnoxious!!!
Fucking Wired.
Farewell! It's been a fine buncha years!
This was a once a great magazine, but in 2004 it trended somewhat anti-american and began to show signs of an editorial-rooted political bias.
Now check out what North Shore Agency promisses their customers,
The limits of liability are galling:
What can you do if you believe a debt collector violated the law? You have the right to sue a collector in a state or federal court within one year from the date from the date the law was violated. If you win, you may recover money for the damages you suffered plus an additional amount up to $1000. Court costs and attorneys fees also can be recovered. A group of people also may sue a debt collector and recover money for damages up to $500,000, or one percent of the collectors net worth, whichever is less.
So how many thousands of dollars can be made by abusing thousands of people? Yet the limit is $500,000. Disgusting.
I'm sure I've only scraped the tip of the iceburg here. I've never been served one of these letters and am unaware of anything on my own credit record. Be aware however that bad credit will cost you dearly when you try to buy a car, house or anything else you can't buy outright. Is that teeth enough for you?
If this story is true, it's deplorable. Wired is not, I hope, so stupid as to burn the world's good will $12 at a time.
DMCA, Hollings, Palladium. What might have sounded like paranoia is now common sense.
Yes, lets pretend a problem doesn't exist by not thinking about it. Out of sight, out of mind.
Retard.
Fuck you, cocksucker. The article wasn't discussing a "problem", it was gloating about how wonderful all this outsourcing supposedly is. It was a fucking propaganda piece, and you can go fuck yourself until you read the fucking thing. Then, roll up the magazine and fuck yourself with THAT.
Dipshit.
If you register domain names or purchase other services through GoDaddy.com, you might find yourself in a similar situation. They don't, to my knowledge, sick a collection agency on you, but they do automatically renew stuff without warning.
More specifically, deep in the fine print of GoDaddy's terms of service, they mention that they will assume that you want to auto-renew a service when it expires. However, nowhere else do they mention this. In fact, 90 days, 60 days, and 30 days before the service expires, they will send you e-mails saying "This service is going to expire! Renew now so it won't happen!". Naturally, if you're like me, you would assume that such a message is implying that the service will simply end if you do nothing. Not so! Instead, on the day of expiration, you will get a notice from GoDaddy that they have billed your credit card for renewal, like it or not.
Now, for me, the service in question was not a domain name. I immediately contacted them an asked them to cancel the service and refund me, and they did. However, domain names (their primary business) can NOT be refunded, presumably since ICANN or whoever does not allow this. So, if this happens to you with a domain name, you're screwed.
Interestingly, GoDaddy also provides a feature that lets you "synchronize" your renewals, making all your services expire on the same date. Since you can renew any service at any time anyway (long before expiration), I see no reason for this feature to exist, other than to trick people into letting GoDaddy auto-renew all of their services at once.
Moral: Always explicitly cancel renewable services.
(Side note: Other than the above shady stuff, I find GoDaddy to be a very nice, high-quality service. I don't feel this is reason for a boycott, but you may make your own decision. I certainly would trust GoDaddy over Verisign, but that's not saying much.)
His rights have already been violated because the debt is bogus.
How, exactly, do you think he's going to push back? He can complain here but the credit agency can lose a maximum of $500,000 for this fraud. Is he going to hire a lawyer over this? What lawyer is going to want work that will pay them a maximum of $1,000 for an individual's case? I'd really like to know how to fight back, but it looks like the odds are firmly in favor of the hired weasels.
DMCA, Hollings, Palladium. What might have sounded like paranoia is now common sense.
The letter is dated July 11th, 2002!
What's next on slashdot?
Wired Magazine lists the 19 digital projection theaters in the country where Attack of the Clones can be viewed as Lucas intended?
I guess I'll just have to switch back to my Doctor's waiting room for all my cutting-edge tech news.
I read the article, moron. Its not about how wonderful outsourcing is, fucktard. Its about how the tech climate is changing and how it is affecting us, shit-for-brains.
Moron beyond belief.
So is this the new business model for the 21st century? "Customers cant quit us, we OWN them"!
Don Corleone would be so proud.
Ditto.
The "Drop Dead Letter": clicky
Fine Print: IANAL, IANAA (I am not an American)
There is another kind of evil which we must fear most, and that is the indifference of good men. -- Boondock Saints
If a person stops paying, then treat it as sign they don't want the product. STOP SHIPPING IT instead of ruining their credit. It's that simple.
SCO Magazine anyone?
Table-ized A.I.
You should have been told when you rented that there are penalties for returning late. Blockbuster is not being "greedy" by expecting you to conform to contract terms.
If you returned the movie on time, their charge is fraudulent (like Wired's). If you were late, suck it up and pay, or let them tarnish your credit.
You are not legally entitled to screw corporations just because they want to screw you.
Slashdot has subscriptions?
"Ha, Ha". It's funny. Laugh.
I dunno - but thats really scary. "NSA isn't autorized to take legal action" - thats bull#$@$ to hire a group to come in and just "scare" people. Along with that automated reneal bit.
I think everyone should write them and complain. In fact their magazine subscripion email is: subscriptions@wiredmag.com
Flood them.
snowulf.com
nuf sed
Table-ized A.I.
They weren't ex-customers. They had subscribed to a rewnewing subscription. They were current subscribers who had become delinquent in their payments.
Try reading the article next time.
Vermifax
Logout
With all of the gratuitous graphics, strange color scemes and other distractions, I could hardly bring myself to read it.
When I allowed my sub. to lapse 5 years ago nothing happened, so I guess I lucked out.
Stupidity, it's a renewable resource!
Certainly you are right, however the Nazi at Wired who decided to do this must ahve graduated from the SCO School of Customer Service cum laude.
If you look over the other posts on this board, even you must come to the conclusion that Wired is losing a lot of money and subscribers together with its good will. In fact their level of stupidity on this move is stunning.
My little brother got one of those offers to try PC Gamer magazine; getting an issue or two, he signed up, being told that he would get a bill and could cancel after such time. He never actually received a single issue, but he did get the invoice from them. Since he had yet to get the issue, he ignored the invoice, awaiting his issue so he could decide if he wanted to subscribe or not.
At this point, some more time passed, and he then began getting collection notices on this bill for a magazine he never even got the trial issues.
We had written 'CANCEL' on numerous of the PC gamer invoices, and returned them, but heard nothing back, and the collection notices continued.
We then contacted the collection company who tried to tell us to notify PC Gamer, which I explained that we've tried numerous times, but no action has been taken -- and they reluctantly removed us from their collection system, and apparently also removed our PC Gamer subscription, clearing everything up.
Seems like a lot of effort to try to go for, for a $20/yr magazine subscription.
This all occured over nearly a one-year period, so there was more than sufficient time in between each action to account for snail mail.
May this post be indexed by spiders, and archived for all to see as my Internet epitaph.
In 2001, I had lost my job and finding a new one in NYC in October was, let's say "difficult."
I had a credit card with $4,000 on it, from Citibank. It went default; rent was more important then this debt. I told them I intended to pay the debt but I would have to find work first.
They sent it to a collection agency and let me tell you, this guy was a fucking dipshit. He'd call four times a day, and every time I'd ask "who is this" (because they're only allowed to call once a day, they don't like to identify themselves) and he would not. I'd hang up, he'd call back. Finally after a few calls he would, and I'd say "sorry, he's not here." I started out with them by explaining the situation, but it didn't matter.
Once a bill goes to a collection agency, that's it. The damage has been done - it's on your credit history as a charge-off. The collection agency can not do anything else to ruin your credit. The only thing they can do is bug you until you pay, so that's what most of them do. And they don't mind breaking the law because you can't trace their calls with Caller ID, they don't identify themselves, and when you're broke you can't hire a lawyer. Police won't do a damned thing either. (I called them.)
Finally I did get a job and I sued his ass. He settled and I no longer had to pay the debt. But it was a pain in the ass.
I had another small debt, that went to a lawyers office. They took me to court. But it was better then the collection agency, because I told the judge my situation and he was sympathetic. I paid something like $10 a month until it was paid. Most judges will do the same thing. Once I got some income I paid off the debt in two weeks. This was much more effective then the collection agencies.
So to anyone with a collection agency on your ass - fuck'em. If they refuse to work with you (resonably) on a debt, they're rude, and call more then once a day, don't be afraid. They have NO power. Once you get some cash, call a lawyer.
- It's not the Macs I hate. It's Digg users. -
Um, that's not what the story said.
I don't like what Wired did, but there was an automatic renewal clause. How about just sticking with the facts rather than twisting them to suit your case?
Get as angry as you like, they're still taking your jobs. Sell your car, pay down your credit card debts and join the army, they need people badly, and that won't get outsourced.
It's a growth industry.
Several years ago I decided to let my Time Magazine subscription run out. I thought I'd not renew, and they would just drop me. Instead, just like with Wired, they started sending me this shit about contacting a collection agency, etc. I ignored it at first, but they kept sending them. Finally, I wrote them a letter saying I didn't want their magazine, and all the bullshit stopped.
I actualy liked the magazine, but was too busy to read it every week. I might have resubscribed eventually, but after how I was treated, I don't plan to in this lifetime.
Homer no function beer well without.
Editors, you really need to be a little more responsible with what you print, because this could have a really negative impact on Wired.
At first it was one of the most incredibly over-designed publications I'd ever seen- to the point that reading it (isn't that what you're supposed to do?) was difficult. After a while someone saw the light and calmed it down quite a bit. I then started to like it - some of the articles I thought were actually quite good. I haven't received it for a while now (I hope I don't get a collection letter saying I owe them for 5 years ; ) ), but hearing stuff like this really doesn't serve as much of an incentive.
Wired Magazine was sold to Conde Nast a few years ago, with Wired.com (Wired Digital, I think it was) and HotWired, and WebMonkey being sold separately to Lycos. I think part of the sale was that the wired magazine would be able to have space on the wired.com domain. But the basic gist is that Wired magazine is not cool anymore. I personally lost all faith in Wired when Y2K rolled around and the world didn't end - they were so adamant about it happening... I just got pissed.
rooooar
He'd call four times a day, and every time I'd ask "who is this" (because they're only allowed to call once a day, they don't like to identify themselves) and he would not. I'd hang up, he'd call back.
I had a credit card from Providian many, many years ago. It was a secured card, I had a deposit and limit of $500. To make a long story short, I did lose my job and could not pay the bill. I called and told them what happened, and told them to take the deposit and use it against my account. But the person on the phone sounded very sympathetic and said they would give me a grace period, and not to close the account. I listened to them.
They lied.
The next bill had a $30 late fee. The one after that had another $30 late fee, and a $30 over the limit fee (caused by the late fee). I called them back and told them to immediatly close my account, but they said my $500 deposit was not large enough to pay off the entire account, and they could not do a partial pay off. They kept charging me late fees and over the limit fees until I owed them $1200 (including the collection fees).
Now this is where it gets real nasty.
Providian started calling my house 8 times a day. Caller Id would always show "unavalable". They threatened me every way they could. Somehow, Providian found my mothers phone number, and called her. The guy told her I was going to get sued unless she paid my debt. I told her not to do anything, I was getting mad.
A few weeks later, my neighbor knocks on my door and says that Providian left a message for me, and that I should call them back.
I called Providian, and told them not to ever call me again. They told me they only respond to written corrispodance.
Providian made my life miserable for over two years. After a while, I would get phone calls and it would be them hanging up. It was all designed to be harrasment.
So I figured to hell with my credit rating, I would rather have 7 horrible years of bad credit than to pay Providian one penny. After a couple years passed, I got a letter from providian approving me for a secured credit card, $1500 to be exact. All Providian wanted was to put my charged off balance on the new credit card.
Here is the deal. If the bank can not collect in the statute of limitations, it gets taken off your credit report. The banks can no longer come after you. To get the debt back, they will try and offer something like credit. They are bastards.
But my question is this. How can you prove to a judge that a bank is calling you non-stop if the caller Id only shows "unavailable" and they don't identify themselevs?
For a while, I was seriously considering getting a gun, walking into Providians main bank, walking to the executive offices, and killing every motherfucker in the room. Them calling nonstop, humiliating me by calling neighbors, threatening my mom, it all was too much for me to take. The only thing that kept me sane was calling them "motherfucker" over the phone.
Rosco: "If brains were gunpowder, Enos couldn't blow his nose."
Readers Digest pulled a similar stunt with me, only it was a couple hundred dollars, not twelve. I let my subscription run out (I mean, really, there's not a lot there, y'know?) and they kept sending the magazine for a few months.
Next thing I know I'm getting collection notices.
Their customer service people were able to fix the "problem", but only because I knew it was bullshit and I called them on it.
If I don't renew my sub, there's a reason. It's not my responsibility to pay for issues that I'm sent after my sub is expired.
Expired: Annoying Leaflets
Tired: Auto-renewing Subscriptions
Wired: Collection Agencies
About 1-2 years ago this happened to me.
As the claims were ludicrous, I immediately sent the collection agency Clark Howard's drop dead letter, by certified mail.
After that, they cannot ever contact you again about that debt, and no, it will not effect your credit one way or another. (WIRED basically lost that right when they agreed to let a collection agency try to get the money for them... oversimplifying it.)
They really shot themselves in the foot, because up until that time, I would buy the magazine off the newsstand even when I let my subscription lapse. Since I got that letter, I've never bought a copy of WIRED again.
Ironically, the word ironically is often used incorrectly.
How are you going to cash a check that's made out to another pervert?
I don't know about cheques (used in the United Kingdom), but checks (used in the United States) can have two endorsements on the back when presented to a bank; as long as the first matches "Pay to the order of" and the second matches the ID of the person presenting the check, it's negotiable as a "third party check". That's part of why you shouldn't endorse a check unless you'll immediately be handing it to a bank teller or cashier or putting it in an envelope. Many retailers do not take third party checks, but U.S. financial institutions usually accept them for deposit.
I've seen a few people here claim something to the extent of "it's his own fault, he should have read the fine print" and personally I have to say that's garbage. We live in a society that is absolutely inundated with "fine print". You almost can't avoid it no matter where you go. Much of it is confusing and hard to understand. To make matter worse, a good portion is repetitive info reworded slightly from "fine print" to "fine print" thus worsening the signal to noise ratio drastically.
Since the vast majority of people aren't lawyers (and probably lack the reading comprehension skills needed to read at that level); we can't expect people to thoroughly read through every single EULA, magazine subscription "fine print", etc. in order to know if any of the many convoluted, "lawyer speak", terms will screw you over in the end. This leaves average people to do exactly what most people do right now which is to "gloss over" "fine print" and hope for the best. In this particular case, Wired magazine took what would otherwise be generic "fine print" and slipped in a term radically different from what is the generally accepted method for handling magazine subscriptions. I feel that this should be looked upon as, at least, unethical and should, quite possibly, be considered fraudulent behavior.
What it boils down to is that we need to decide what kind of society we want to live in. Do we want to live in a society where the only way you can avoid being fleeced by big business is to be a lawyer who devotes a large portion of his/her free time to religiously reading the "fine print" to every single product or service he/she buys or signs up for no matter how small or trivial that product or service happens to be? The burden here should fall on the businesses providing the product/service in question.
Individuals have, for the most part, very limited resources (time, money, intellect, etc.) with which to comprehend threats posed by "fine print". If the burden were on the individual then that person would have to expend that effort for every example of "fine print" he/she is exposed to. In comparison, businesses usually have more resources with which to develop "fine print" that doesn't include clauses that aren't generally known and accepted by the community the product/service is being sold in. They only have to expend the overhead once for every product/service they release. Any significantly unusual terms should be listed in a manner that draws attention to it so that potential customers will notice it.
Unfortunately, at the present time, we seem to live in a society that allows large companies (like the ones in the software industry) to create complex licenses like software EULAs that contain clauses hidden away in the middle requiring you to hand over you first born son or all your worldly possessions in exchange for using their newest Operating System. We need to push our government to enact consumer protection laws that stop this kind of abuse.
-GameMater
Rules of Conduct:
#1 - The DM is always right.
#2 - If the DM is wrong, see rule #1
Umm they outsourced the invasion of Afghanistan to the local drug lords. And boy didn't that work out well.
From what other posters have said, it appears that GoDaddy has fixed this problem since last year when I encountered it. At the time (as of late last year) their expiration warning e-mails said nothing about auto-renewal, but it appears they now do. I am glad they changed that. Please don't mod me up for outdated information. -_-
As our previous corespondence to you has indicated, your past-due account has been reffered to our office for handling. Despite our prior attempts to resovle this issue, your past-due debt remains outstanding, and we have no indication that you indend to honor your obligation amicably. We hope that you will take this final opportunity to resolve your past-due debt of $31337.00, however, if you fail to do so, our client intends to enforce your outstanding obligation in court.
Although no suit has yet been filed gainst you, please be advided that, if we have not heard from you within ten (10) business days, an attorney in your area will be retained for the purpose of filing a lawsuit.
If a lawsuit is filed, our client will seek to recover attorney's fees, court costs, and an other costs if permitted by law or contract. If our client obtains a judgement against you, it may seek to enforce the judgement by all means allowed by law.
Please contact our office immediately if you would like to settle this matter.
NOTE: This is a notice of an attempt to collect a debt. Any information obtained will be used for that purpose. This is a communications from a debt collector.
(Sorry if some of this is a little off - haven't been involved in writing one of those in a while.)
I forget what 8 was for.
Sounds like a certain website for nerds.
Just because it CAN be done, doesn't mean it should!
Yhey send out letters that look like "You Owe Us Money" and that lead you to belive that you had already re-subscribed and now you needed to pay. Bogus.
I'd hit it.
He's like 60, bald, and flashing some ridiculous bling bling diamond stud earring for some unknown reason. My immediate thoughts were "I bet GoDaddy isn't the most upstanding business in the world"
My daughter was receiving similar letters from North Shore Agency for a bogus "alleged debt". I filed a complaint of harrassment against North Shore with the New York State Attorney General's office. The collection letters and phone calls stopped immediately and I received a letter of apology from North Shore.
And in other news:
Best Buy cashier harasses customer by asking for payment.
Amazon.Com turns away customers when they refuse to provide a credit card number.
Telcos globally unite to require funds by customers for the phone calls they make.
Microsoft sends shockwaves through the business sector by announcing they will charge for next version of Windows.
Seriously, you sign up for a magazine with recurring payments and you get the magazines. You get letter after letter saying you owe money, and then have the nerve to complain about it to the local paper?
-David
Actually, this same thing happened to me. I, somehow, got put on the auto-renew list -- which means that they'll hire a collection agency to get their $12. Absolutely rediculous. Anyway, I've cancelled, Wired has said they'd talk to the collection agency, they haven't. I'm still trying to get them off my back (4 months). I would never subscribe to Wired again.
Then I shall just deposit it in the ATM and forgo the teller!
Not that I would get an ass vibrator, mind you.
Remember folks, slashdot doesn't have a -1 "disagree" moderation!
Hmm, I don't have a problem with that service - I have some domains that auto-renew and some I want to think about. Works for me, and has for years...
;-)
I think your point is that they don't make it terribly obvious, but you get a reminder telling you what's going to happen 90, 60 and 30 days before it actually takes place so what more can they do?
Insert
Oh, well, no surprise ! That's an old trick. Same happened to me when I cancelled my service with the wireless provider Cingular. For 6 months there were no bills, no call, all clear and then I got a call from such an agency. Such a low tactic - idiots ! They fixed it of course, but still my advise is never go to Cingular - T-Mobile is No:1 in USA !
An employee suggested to me that we load Wired on a few machines here as an evaluation. I was skeptical at first but he explained the benefits of using it for our employee's day-to-day news. So I decided to let him install the magazine onto 5 machines to see how the users got on. Besides, our IT manager had been using it on his system and it seemed to work fine, why not try it on the client machines?
Once he'd got the machines up and running with Wired we let the users try it out. It all seemed fine to start with: Wired was a pretty good replacement for Slashdot and the users could still do their work as normal.
Alas it did not stay that way. After a few days, I had lost count of the number of complaints received from users who could not find things they were used to or tasks they could not perform that they previously could with Slashdot. The final straw came when one employee lost several hours work when Wired suddenly had an error reading from our intranet site and corrupted his project.
Needless to say, the Wired team offered no support whatsoever. I made the employee uninstall Wired from the machines and lets just say he's not with us anymore.
This is exactly why for years now I have used a fake name on all my subscriptions. When someone signs up for one of these, there's nothing stopping someone from falsifying your name onto the little postcard for a free trial & check marking "BILL ME LATER."
/. article. I myself have one that comes in on a monthly basis for PC World. They threaten that they've fairly noticed me 2 times now - that I owe $29.99 & my sub will continue once it is paid in full. Here's the clear difference. If it was a debt owed, there would be no continuation of my magazine sub - because I would hypothetically be paying for something already sent/used in the past.
The above scenario is why they will never be able to hold you responsible for a magazine sub that you may or may not have asked for. The risk of sending you a few magazines ahead of time without payment is something they as a company must take to try & get your business. It does NOT give them the right to assume this is a debt owed. However I have recently noticed more magazine companies doing what happened in this
In the end, the only reason I use a fake name is for 2 reasons. #1 - when I no longer want the magazine, I don't have to deal with this headache... I can simply tear up every single threat that comes in laughing at it - it's a nice chuckle in my mailbox montly.
#2 - When they sell my name & address to some other marketing company & I get the inevitable junk mail, I can still laugh at it & tear it up - yet more chuckles knowing they sold a fake persons' info to some marketing company.
Both ways it makes your junk mail easier to identify.
Wherever you go, there you are.
...and I know just enough about debt collection law to know that I don't know enough to comment much on this. Oh, and that you certainly shouldn't accept legal advice from ANYONE on slashdot. Including me.
The FDCPA, however, generally applies to third-party debt collectors. If I recall correctly, most people simply run afoul of the Act when they fail to include the required "This communication is an attempt to collect a debt. Any information obtained will be used for that purpose blah blah blah" language on the letter. Usually it's because companies/lawyers don't realize the law applies to them and they end up owing a $1000 fine per occurrence.
The FCRA is also a useful tool for consumers to make sure big companies don't bully them around, but at this hour I can't remember enough about it to really post anything resembling an educated comment. However, it's more complicated than the original poster suggests.
However, another very important set of resources available to consumers are state consumer protection laws. Generally you can find these on your state Attorney General's homepage, and there are detailed instructions for nonlawyers about your rights, the notice and filing requirements and deadlines, and pros and cons of filing a complaint with the AG versus filing on your own. Frequently they follow a similar model, and often involve a requirement that before filing suit for consumer protection violations, you provide a demand letter with 30 days' written notice and an opportunity to settle the claim without going to court.
If the question is not "someone says I owe them money and I don't think I do," but rather that "a magazine renewed my subscription without my consent and then attempted to bill me for it," it seems to me that your state AG's webpage would be a good place to start. Usually there are brochures. With pretty pictures.
[ And now for the standard disclaimer: Legal advice is given by an attorney duly admitted to practice law after confidentially and candidly hearing your version of the facts and applying a specialized analysis of the facts and relevant law. This, however, is a silly post on the Internets, and not legal advice. No attorney-client privilege is created with anyone as a result of this post. Do not taunt Happy Fun Ball. If legal advice is what you want, go hire a competent lawyer. Don't ask slashdot. ]
I seem to recall quite a few magazines doing this to me over the years. Are they REALLY going to put a $12 debit on your credit report and risk retaliatory legal action? Hell no. They just send out letters hoping to make you afraid enough to cough up money, and that's it.
I can vouch, having ignored many of these "payment due" notices from magazines. They have not once shown on a credit report from any agency, which I check every year.
Doesn't it cost them some money anyway just to file a complaint with a credit agency? it seems like it would cost them a lot more than they would gain if they actually filed reports on people.
"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
For the guy who's got collections on him... NEVER pay the collections agency. Doesn't matter how or why it's on there, especially if it's 12$. You pay the company that hired the collections agency directly. That way you can get it nixed from your credit report (I work in the industry, trust me).
If you have a "paid collections" on your credit report, while it's not AS BAD as an "open collections" you're still f-ed for 7 years until it comes off, and I believe it's like 20 points off your credit score, I'd have to double check that part.
At first, things are cool. Magazines stop coming after the subscription expires, nothing happens for three months. Then I get the letter from a collection agency. I owe BYTE magazine $1.36 for "underpaying my subscription". Pay up or else.
I shit you not. $1.38. They went to a collection agency for a fucking $1.38.
This letter came at a particularly stressful point in my life, and I was in no mood for this shit. At the time, I did not really understand how collection agencies and the law worked, so I simply bypassed the collection agency, called up BYTE magazine directly, and majorly unloaded on their customer support. The poor girl that happened to answer my call must have been new, for by the end of it I swore she was almost in tears, telling me to forget all about it, sorry for the inconvenience, blah blah blah, have a nice day.
I never received anything more from them or had anything bad pop up on my credit report.
Karma: Frotzed (mostly due to the Frobozz Magic Karma Company)
A fake bill for one of my domains. It was actually a thing to renew with a different company but they REALLY tried to make it look like a bill. I e-mailed the FTC and asked if they'd like to see it. They said yes so I mailed it to them. Never bothered to follow up and see what happened.
It was over 2 decades ago, but the New York Times did this to me. The situation was somewhat different. They were to deliver the papers and then I pay every month as invoiced. Trouble was, I wasn't getting all the papers. I called and complained and nothing got better. Finally, one week with a missed paper every single day, I called once more and told them to cancel. Over the next month I got only 8 papers delivered. So I didn't pay the bill. They continued this for another month and added to the bill as past due, and then finally stopped delivering altogether. After a couple more months, I got some collection letters from the paper, then later started to get some collection letters from a collection agency. At that point I moved out of state, but still got the letters because I forwarded my mail (I've since learned not to have the Post Office do that). Eventually the letters just stopped. About 6 months later I got a billing statement with a line item deleting all my debt citing "written off", and showing a balance of zero. A month after that I got another billing statement showing a months worth of billing for a subscription that was renewed. But I no longer lived in New Jersey (I was then in Ohio), so how could I have been getting the papers, or know if they were really delivering. But I just ignored it as the billing accumulated for 2 more months and it all finally just stopped.
If you have real debt and/or collections issues, be sure to visit Bud Hibbs' web site
now we need to go OSS in diesel cars
I remembered another interesting experience with a collection agency, and this on a debt that wasn't even mine.
It was about a year after I had moved into my apartment in New Jersey, my first time living outside my parents' place. I got this call from a collections agency asking for a fellow that did not live at that address. I politely told the person they had the wrong number and hung up. No surprise or shock there. For the first few months after I had moved in, I used to regularly get calls from people asking how much I charged to paint a house, finding out later that the last edition of the phone book listed my number for a paint store that went out of business. I figured something similar was at work here.
Next day, they call back again, again ask for the same person. I again politely tell them that no such person lives there. However, I got intrigued by this, and did a little research. Turned out the fellow they were looking for was the previous tenant of the apartment. Cool, I thought. Now I could tell them the real deal if they called back.
And called back they did. I gave them what I knew, that this person used to live there but moved away before I moved in, and I had no more info than that.
So what does this fucktard from the collection agency do? He started accusing me of "covering" for this dude and starts threatening me with all sorts of dire legal consequences if I don't bring him to the goddamn phone RIGHT NOW.
Well, by this time, I knew exactly what my rights were, and I let him know it. I told him in no uncertain terms that I had no idea where this guy was, and even if I did, I was under no legal obligation to tell them, and if they called back again, I would remand the incident to my lawyer, and then hung up.
Never heard back from them again.
Karma: Frotzed (mostly due to the Frobozz Magic Karma Company)
Hell, when I incorporated a business, I started getting all kinds of subscriptions from different business mags. While they're neat to read, I didn't ask for a single one. After looking it all up, I'm getting about $120 worth of mags a year...
I made an eBay also once that I was late in shipping for various reasons. So I went to a boxing/shipping place and packed it up and sent it FedEx second day. I paid up front, of course, FedEx doesn't extend credit to non-account holders and that's how those places make money. FedEx gives them a better price than they give you, and the place can charge you most of the difference.
Well some time later I get a bill from FedEx for the package. I call them and try to argue this, it's clearly a bogus bill. I shipped it through a store and there's a charge on there, a non-account fee. I ask them if they extend credit to non-account holders and they said no, but still wouldn't accept the bill was bougs. They said I needed to talk to the shop, I said bullshit, they needed to talk to the shop, I'd already paid.
So they sent me to collections, of course. I sent the collection agency a letter saying the charge was bogus, plus copies of relivant documentation, all notorized via certified mail. The agency of course backed down, since even if I was making shit up, I was clearly ready to fight.
FedEx then decided to send it to another agency, plus an additonal fee (totally illegal). A few phone calls later and it was done (they knew if it went to court they'd get nailed).
People get sent to collections for lots of BS reasons. I wish it was just because they had legitimately skipped on a debt they owed, but many companies shoot first and ask questions later.
Some even do it on purpose. A friend bought a TV from Best Buy on their credit card. Deal was no intrest for a year, low payments. He decided that a one year no-intrest loan sounded like a better deal. So he was making payments such that he'd pay it off in a year. Well he screwed up and missed a payment. They instantly canceled his account and sent him to collections. No 30 days, no notices, nothing. They were pissed since they weren't going to make any money so just sent it off.
Also please note that being sent to colelctions doesn't go on your credit history automatically. If you successfuly contest it, as I did in teh FedEx case, or simply pay it off it never appears.
I've never had a rental place threaten to send me to collections over late fees. They all work one of two ways:
1) They simply wait until next you come in. Chances are you will come back, hence it works, espically since when you are there and want your movies, you are unlikely to leave without them, but can't unless you pay.
2) They send notices and charge your credit card. That's what the place I rent at now does. They give you about 2 months and if you don't show up they warn you a couple times they are going to charge you card on file, and then do so.
Sending someone to collections is quite a hostile act, and is a great way to lose a cusotmer. What's more, you don't get all your money even if they do pay, and it's not that hard to get a collection agency to back down in small dollar cases (not worht their time to investigate).
Retarded move.
I can't imagine such a contract would really hold up legally - did you actually sign anything to get a subscription? I don't think so. How can there actually be a binding contract with you?
"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
A while back someone called trying to get me to switch to Sprint and offered me a free mag subscruption if I did.
They had many diffrent publications to chouse from but the sales person was only intrested in having me subscribe to ESPN mag. I don't like sports and explained repeatedly I wasn't intrested in ESPN. I also wasn't intrested in changing my phone carrer. After being put on hold for about 30 minuts I hung up.
I never agreed to anything and certenly didn't agree to a subscription.
A year later I move and suddenly I'm receaving ESPN mag. I've forgotten the phone call. I just send it back with "Return to sender"
However famaly members keep pulling it out of the mail box and returnning them to me so they don't always get out.
Still for like 6 months I got a mag I wasn't intrested in never subscribed to.
Then I got a bill from a colection agentcy.
For a mag subscription to a mag I didn't want.
For the record the phone sales person didn't mention switching carrers. She just started with the free mag pitch and I went round and round with her on the fact that I don't like sports.
She also mentioned Wired but I already had a subscruption.
I don't actually exist.
Might have to do with age. I know myself that I've mellowed out and become not only more civil, but generally less testy (unless provoked).
Fact is, you know that people with lower UIDs have been around longer, and thus are likely to be older. Age is often correlated with maturity, although the reality does not always match up.
This is common practice for magazines these days. I got burned by Discover the exact same way.
I have actually been trying to renew my Wired subscription for the last 3 months. But on the international subscription webpage, the credit card expiration year only goes to 2011, and my card expires in 2012 :-(
Also, the notification letter they send to international customers is a lot more friendly, with phrases like "We hope you still wish to subscribe". But then again, over here by law when you stop payment, that ends the subscription agreement. It is the magazine's responsibility to not send you stuff you haven't yet paid for.
What's the matter, didn't get into law school? :'(
As I said farther up the thread, my main point in posting was to respond to the first post which was full of sketchy "tips" on how to get the collectors to "slip up."
"IAAL" was just a response to the "IANAL" that I replied to. And I only made the distinction to show that while I have a basic understanding of debtor-creditor law, I would never hold myself out as an expert in that area, and that the original advice (SUE THEM FOR $1000! LOOOL!) was dubious at best.
So *thppt*. Go back to your parents basement and collect smegma, you wannabe.
I grimace at the hypocrosy of this article coming from the SF Chronicle.
A couple years ago the SF Chronicle tried several times to try to get me and my roommates to subscribe using some rather underhanded techniques.
1) They would call claiming to need to verify some account information. Funny - we never had an account with them. Being niave, I stayed on the line and I confirmed my address. Then he mumbles something that you can barely make out and then clearly read out my address and asked "is that correct"? Suspicious and not having clearly heard everything he just said, I answer "I'm not approving any charges". He hangs up on me.
2) They call again a few days later and after identifying themselves I quickly say we're not interested. "But you have an unpaid balance" he claims. I argue with him and he shortly tells me he'll have a manager talk to me. "Fine," I think, "I'll sort it out with the manager". The manager pulls the same crap as in 1). He mumbles off something about a subcription price that's barely intelligible, reads of my address clearly, and then asked "is that correct?". Again I say "I don't want to subscribe and I'm not approving any charges," and he hangs up on me.
On one call, I even pulled the "put us on your do-not-call list" line (This was before the nation-wide one was in effect) and the guy claimed "This isn't a sales call. You have an unpaid balance". On the last call I'm yelling at the guy and call them out on their underhanded techniques of bundling two questions into one in an attempt to trick us into subscribing. Never heard from them again after that.
"decidedly uncool tactics" indeed.
I used to work for a collections agency. Most of the calls where I could actually talk to someone, they had no idea they even had any balance on their card. This is because the store waits 3 months to send it to collections, and by that time they've already got $100 in late fees and finance charges. Even not paying $0.01 is enough to get a huge late fee.
Job? I don't have time to get a job! Who will sit around and bitch about being broke and unemployed then?
I canceled my subscription 6 months ago with no problem. Besides, the article says he was on automatic subscription. Why do you flamebait one of the best magazines out there? Stupidity?
NSA isn't a real collections agency. About four years ago I was a member of the Scientific American Book Club when I received a bill for three books I never received. I called them up and disputed the bill, but they claimed that it was valid and refused to drop it. I even offered to pay the bill if they'd reship the books (they were good physics texts), but couldn't get them to budge. Since I was already well past my required minimum buy, I just told them to cancel my account.
Almost immediately I started receiving nasty collections letters from the precursor to the North Shore Agency. When I demanded that they stop contacting me, they REFUSED. It turns out that these guys aren't actually a collections agency...they're a billing clearinghouse used by several of the big publishing outfits. They ARE NOT legally a CRA, they CAN NOT place negative information on your credit report, and because they don't actually assume the debt, they can't even sue you for the bill.
Four years later, these idiots still send me nasty letters threatening undefined impending dire consequences every three months or so, but absolutely nothing has happened. I have no negative hits on my credit report, I have never recived a collections call, and no legal action has been attempted by anybody. These guys can bark a lot, but they are completely toothless when it comes time to back up their threats. Considering that my alleged $121 bill is far larger than those being levied against Wired subscribers, I'd guess that they'd go after me long before they go after them.
I quit caring about NSA collection letters a long time ago. My opinion nowadays is that if they want to waste the postage sending me a few letters a year, I'm perfectly content to throw them away with the rest of my junkmail.
There is nothing so pathetic as seeing a beautiful young theory roughed up by a tough gang of facts.
a friend offered me a subscription: they billed the credit card straight away then they said the first issue would be delivered within 3 months since they need to "prepare carefully" their labels; 3 months later and still no issue received, i embarked on a correspondence with the "customer service" which claimed, in 5 successive rows that: they did not have my referene in their database, yes they did, no they didn't, etc. ; finally took 5 months to get ripped off the credit card , get no issues of wired magazine and finally get reimbursed !!!
I was dumb enough to subscribe to readers digest for a while.
When the 12 months was up, I thought I'd just let it expire, next thing I know, nasty letters in the mail. I paid up and then I cancelled. They took another four months worth off me after I cancelled, and returned the magazines they sent each month unopened.
I guess I could have sued or something but an hour with a lawyer would cost me more than what their bodgy subscription did. There is no justice. And I don't think we can collect fines for "unsolicited mail" in Australia.
-- it must be true, it's on the internet.
So, just to be clear, your "legit question" is "They have people whose names sound middle eastern to me, isn't that a sign that they're supporting terrorists?"
/.," but you hope that anyone who doesn't see how "legit" your question is is in the next bombings.
And you don't want to "stir up SH*T on
Very nice.
Information doesn't want to be anthropomorphized anymore.
IANAL. You don't have to be a lawyer to stand up to petty intimidation. I've done this several times over the years (Omni magazine, an apartment rental agency, etc.). All you need to do is write two letters and (if you want to really be a hardass), get them (and your copy) notarized. If they're properly notarized, you can use, in court, the certified reciept to prove that the recipient actually received the letter of which you hold a copy.
First, write a letter referencing the collections notice, disputing the debt, and asking for a copy of the contract. Demand a reply within 7 days.
After the time period has elapsed, you may discover that the magazine has documentation that you've agreed to an automatic renewal (oops!). Cancel the subscription, pay the debt, and make sure you read your contract next time.
OTOH, if the magazine does not come up with the documentation of your debt, then there is no debt. Send another letter referencing the first letter. State that the subscription was terminated whenever it was terminated (you have to figure that out yourself. Probably when the last prepaid issue was delivered). Say that any alleged debt beyond that is fraud and will be reported to the office of the state's attorney general. Say that threats to credit reporting agencies are extortion and in violation of the FCRA and will also be reported. Find out who this is and include the approproate office address and phone number in the letter. There will be a consumer fraud division. Depending on the nature of the fraud and the state, there may be a specific office for your situation.
Yeah, it's only $12.00. But it's the principle. Don't be intimidated by thugs.
If you decide to defend yourself, don't let the "we'll put it on your credit report because we decided you owe it" intimidate you. Watch your credit report (you get free reports every year for $8.00, and there are 3 agencies use google) Send the same letters to both the credit reporting agency and the alleged creditor demanding documentation. Follow through.
"Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, it doesn't go away." - Philip K. Dick
When I get a call from a "collection agency" like that, I tell them that I don't have any records of that debt and ask them to send me documentation about it showing that I made the purchase, etc. I've yet to receive any. Maybe if they sent things certified mail I'd actually receive it because it sure seems like a lot of my regular mail gets "lost".
by CERTIFIED MAIL, RETURN RECEIPT REQUESTED.
Pursuant to the Fair Debt Collection Practices Act, specifically 15 U.S.C. 1692 Sec. 809 (b), I contest the validity of the debt. I demand verification of the debt and the name and address of the original creditor.
The Fair Debt Collection Practices Act, specifically 15 U.S.C. 1692 Sec. 809 (b), as you are undoubtedly aware, requires that a collector cease collection of the debt and affirmatively act to provide verification of the debt when a debtor disputes the validity of the debt. This account references a consumer debt as defined under 15 U.S.C. 1692 Sec. 803 (5), in that the debt, if valid, represents the purchase of (goods or services) from _________________, for primarily personal purposes by a consumer. Section 813 of the Act provides for civil liability when a collector violates the provisions of the act. Section 807 of the act specifically prohibits: The threat to take any action that cannot legally be taken or that is not intended to be taken. 15 U.S.C. 1692 Sec. 807 (5).
Be certain to fill in the blank and choose (1) either goods or services when using this. It must be sent within 30 days of the first call or letter.
Several years back I recieved an unsolicited promotional "sample issue" of Wired in the mail and several weeks after that I recieved a collection notice asking me to pay for my nonexistant subscription. The notice looke alot, if not exactly, like the one posted. I simply responded with the standard -To the best of my knowledge I haven't a current subscription to Wired magazine and have not, in fact, incurred the debt noted on your notice. I have sent a copy of this letter to my attorney- and that seemed to clear everything up.
Anyway the point is that they have been doing this sort of thing for atleast 3 or 4 years now. I wonder if it isn't some magazine clearing house trying to scam a few extra subscriptions.
I don't think it really means a lot of bad press for wired. This happened to me a couple years ago (BTW, I just kept ignoring the letters and, while they kept coming for quite some time, they did eventually stop) and while I've certainly told a lot of people that Wired is scummy and I refuse to buy one ever again, this is the first time I've encountered negative press on the issue.
Remember RFC 873!
PC Gamer does this too, and it happened to me. I subscribed specifically for a few years, with no running renewal agreement. I let it expire, I got a collections letter like this guy. So it's not a "didn't read the agreement" issue. The letter specifically referred to the situation as a "debt," which is untrue. If I ever get up off my ass, I've been planning on referring this to the AG's office, but since they're based in CA, I used to live in CA, and now I live in VA, I'm not sure which one.
If you ignore any request for payment from any company even if its fraudulent you again have only yourself to blame if you do not challenge it.
To an extent, but since claiming that someone owes you money when you know they don't is fraud, you can certainly blame them too. A lot of people might think it's easier to pay $12 than risk their credit.
I called PC Gamer, asked them what the hell this was about and why they're claiming I owe them money when I don't, and they just cancelled my subscription.
Wired isn't going after subscribers. . . they're going after former subscribers. Wired haven't received the money from them, and assume they won't. So they take it to collections. They're not thinking the customer will renew.
You better watch out, there may be dogs about . .
Got a nastygram from the same North Shore collection agency after letting a trial subscription lapse. Even though I knew it was a ruse, I tried to track this "collection agency" down, and was never able to get through to them by phone.
I wrote to the publishers of "Reason" and let them know how distasteful the practice was...never heard back from them, but never heard back from North Shore either.
BTW, "Reason" is a libertarian rag, so I thought it was somewhat ironic they would threaten to report me to some watchdog credit agencies.
Free thought is expensive to maintain. Sounds to me like Wired got chumped.
No worries. Those eager to seek the message will find it, nobody can stop it entirely from leaking through the trawling net.
-FL
That won't keep the judge from driving your residual income all the way down to minimum wage. You can lose your house, vehicle and many other things before you "starve". Sure, you won't die, but a life time of hard work and effort on your part can be turned into a lifestyle where you might as well have dropped out of high school and been a dishwasher. $your_current_income - $minimum_wage = $nice_income_stream_for_dirtbag, bigger than your phone, electric, vehicle and any other legitimate service is able to pull from you right now.
It does not take much effort to make this happen. The only people immune to it are those with absolutely nothing who are willing to live on a cash basis. Remember that 12 year old girl in the housing project sued by the RIAA? They took her family's life savings of $2,000 as a settlement to avoid the crushing burden of payments on the hundreds of thousands of dollars they claimed she owed. A similar story is the end of most RIAA suits, variable only by life savings amount.
Will this happen over $12? Well, they sent the letter and that's intimidation enough. An uncollected bill is a threat to your credit record, something that can cost you lots and lots of money.
DMCA, Hollings, Palladium. What might have sounded like paranoia is now common sense.
Reader's Digest tried this bull-plop with me, and I've got to say to my embarrassment that it worked. It didn't get to the point of collection letters, though.
I subscribed to Readers Digest "Selecciones" on-line. It offers a ONE YEAR subscription. If you go there now (and can read Spanish) it still offers a ONE YEAR subscription. Nothing more. No disclaimers. Nothing about an auto-renewal. Hell, I just sent a subscription to Bill Clinton with NOTHING indicating auto-renew.
So... I let the subscription lapse. I don't want it any more. The constant reminder notices that always come, I just threw them out unopened -- we all know what they are, right? Well, I still open the non-bulk-rate, plain white envelopes that don't have fake quasi-government-looking crap printed on them, and it was a notice from Readers Digest that the subscription had been automatically renewed and that I ought to stop ingnoring their bills. Well, I paid online and send a nasty email about the auto-renew, and to their credit they did email back stating that the auto-renew had been removed from the account.
--Jim (me)
If anyone is truly interesting in their rights in matters such as these, they should read this book.
Essentially, he makes a living suing collection agencies. I have very mixed feelings about what he does. On one hand, he uses the legal system to go after companies that most people don't like. On the other hand, he uses the legal system in ways most folks don't like. In a lot of cases, he goads the collection agenices into breaking the law so he can sue them.
Anyway, his book really does document your rights in these situations.
If Nalgene water bottles are outlawed, only outlaws will have Nalgene water bottles.
Just because someone didn't fully read their(no doubt legalese filled eula-esque pile) magazine subscription contract, got caught by the deceptive nature of the subscription, and reports the bad customer service stance of the tech magazine to slashdot, and the slashdot audience shows human empathy by expressing solidarity, we are ALL stupid now? Sorry we can't all be empathy lacking psycopaths.
The NSA is out to get us all, but who would have thought they would use such an obvious cover name as the North Shore Agency?
I'm now very afraid of what Microsoft will do if I stop running windows update every day.
I mean, I could have clicked on something buried in a 1,000 word "agreement" that said I would keep updating or they can take my house.
I guess I'll start updating twice a day just to make sure.
There's the reason the magazines get so pushy with renewals: ad revenue is based on their "circulation" figures, whether those copies get read or dumped in the trash. That's why they never want to let subscribers get away.
Let's not jump to conclusions. He/she might not be racist. They might just be a name-ist who assumes that all people with Middle Eastern-sounding names are terrorists, rather than all Middle Easterners. So to their mind, an Protestant American named "Fareed" is more likely to murder civilians than a disgruntled, unemployed Palestinian named "Robert."
On the other hand, I think we all can agree that this wanker (racist, wanker, or whatever) needs to die before spreading their stupidity.
I had a Wired subscription as well, and recently cancelled, however I can NOT believe how many freakin times I have recived a "bill" in the mail for another $40.00 CDN to continue my subscription. So I decided to call them up, and verbally cancelled and ensured that verbally it was cancelled. So it goes. Then I get another bill/invoice for $40.00 CDN, I phone them back and state, "I don't care whatever buttons you gotta punch to make it end up like this but, I dont want anything else, period, no offers, remove me from any lists I'm on, put your Privacy Flag on my account, and make sure my status is CANCELLED. Thank you."
I received one more card from them later on, stating everything was finally cancelled and have heard nothing since then. With this much hassle in cancelling your subscription I am *NEVER* ever re-subscribing to them again, besides, you can go to wired.com anyways, and just read everything thats in the magazine in full (yes - I've sat and compared the online version and the magazine version) - the only difference is the 70% of ads they plow into it and all their NEXFest promotional stuff.
I subscribed because the articles are very well written and researched, and thought I might support them a bit, but never again.
...but I figured it was only 12 bucks, and was afraid of getting a ding on my credit report, so I just paid up...now I see that wired is only charging TEN dollars for an annual renewal!
Grrrr......
Here's a little flow diagram to help you sort out the debt validation process.
d ation_workflow.shtml
t &num=10&hl=en&c2coff=1&btnG=Google+Search&as_epq=& as_oq=&as_eq=&lr=&as_ft=i&as_filetype=doc&as_qdr=a ll&as_occt=any&as_dt=i&as_sitesearch=&safe=off
http://www.creditinfocenter.com/rebuild/debt_vali
The Fair Credit Reporting Act (FCRA)
http://www.ftc.gov/os/statutes/fcrajump.htm
The Fair Debt Collection Practices Act (FDCPA)
http://www.ftc.gov/os/statutes/fdcpajump.htm
Electronic Credit Repair Kit (tm)
http://www.mix6.com/credit/
I would just send them a cease and desist letter. They are not going to bother to get a judgement in court for $12!
http://www.google.com/search?as_q=cease+and+desis
The same thing happened to me with Business 2.0 six months after not renewing my subscribtion. One phone call solved the issue but I was extremely pissed off. After sending them an e-mail telling nicely go to hell and not contact me again from there, they have promptly replied saying my records are erased and they will not contact me again.
Now hearing the same story repeats with Wired, I will cancel my subscribtion with them ASAP.
Am I the only person who sees a relationship to these kinds of form letters and magical phrases? I've been thinking for a while now about the relationship between the legal system and traditional concepts of magic....
Okay, another person putting in words where they were not there...
After I did some checking up on the name, would you like to guess the origin of that particular person, or would you like to shut your mouth?
I'm not a racist, but the odds are people with names like that are easily identifiable. Just like someone with Mac/Mc in their name can easily be placed (about 95% of the time) as Scottish, those people can be placed by their name. Hello? Names come as a mean of cultural and personal identification, and usually reflects rather accurately the area of where they're from.
And if I so need to die, mr AC and the guy below him, come do it yourself. Don't talk trash about it. Get your fat hide outta the chair, turn off mIRC, log off, and come down here. It's people like you, that talk that kind of trash, that inspire our current idiot in office to be even more of a northen redneck.
Still waiting on Serviscope_minor to wake up to fucking reality and realize that Jessica Price isn't going to fuck him.
This magazine used to be good, maybe the first 25 issues or so. Now, it competes for audience with the Robb Report, with its obvious focus on technologically clueless nouveaux riches who want everybody else to think they're hip. Here, I don't buy nor do I subscribe to your crappy magazine but I'll send you twelve bucks anyway to help you pay the bills before you close the shop.
So, instead of just terminating the subscription as they said they would in the first letter, they got a collection agency to pay USD 12 up front? That's great. My answer would be something like:
Otherwise, it's just the same fraudulent scare tactic that seems to have become quite popular. Just don't give in as long as you have any proof that you're right (correspondence, conditions at the time of latest subscription renewal, etc.). Show the CA that they're being used in a criminal scheme and they'll get quite angry with their original customer.
Fight hunger. Filet a politician and send him to a 3rd world country of your choice.
You just think you did.
DT
Is this thing on? Hello?
Whenever I see the latest issue of [i]Wired,[/i] I always imagine a bunch of clueless 40-something marketing experts-turned-editors, gathering in Wired's editorial office, deperately trying to decide which two-year-old "emerging trend" to parade next (and get completely wrong).
It's like the middle-aged uncle who tries to impress everyone with his eternal youth at the 2005 family reunion by showing off his new iPod.
If you mod me down, I shall become more powerful than you can possibly imagine.
Anybody else notice that collections letter is around THREE years old?
------------------------------
Ray Raspberry
raspberry@b3l33t.org
from the article:
Longstanding relationship
In any case, Wired has been using North Shore for a number of years. I found some online gripes about the North Shore letters dating back to 2002 (and you can see one of the firm's letters for yourself at http://urbanideas.com/images/nsa.jpg).
lose != loose
Before you all get too excited and start calling Kathy O'Reilly, be aware that wired.com is owned by Lycos, and is a different company from Wired Magazine. Lycos isn't going to be able to help with this. The correct contact for the magazine is subscriptions@wiredmag.com. Most of the rest of the information on that page relates to wired.com.
Well, yes, as a programmer you wouldn't want a magazine to tell you about what's happening, would you? You'd much rather stick your head in the sand, that way the problem goes away. Always works when you're programming as well, doesn't it?
;)
Get real: The important part of news is news you don't want to hear. Besides, the cover girl looks rather attractive - I'd like to see more of her
no taxation without representation!
Telling me what's happening is one thing. There is a large amount of unbiased coverage of this issue available all over the web, and if I want to read about it, I can read an industry publication and get the scoop from professionals working in the business. I sure as hell don't need Wired magazine's non-techie reporters to tell me about it.
Also, if a magazine puts out a propaganda piece SUPPORTING something that fucks me over, that magazine has just fucked me over and I don't see why I should spend any money on it. Let the Indian outsourcers the magazine fawned over buy subscriptions. I'm not going to.
You obviously aren't affected by the issue, so you go right ahead and ignore the insult this magazine article represents.
Farewell! It's been a fine buncha years!
The motivation here is not that Wired needs $12 - sending out 6 letters of their own, plus three from this company cost them more than the portion of the $12 they might collect.
In the magazine business, with very few exceptions, almost all of the subscription fee is going to people who sign you up for the subscription and the fulfillment company handling the subscription.
Magazines earn their income from advertising.
Audited circulation numbers in all of the print publishing is under severe scrutiny at the moment as a number of publishers have been using techniques (like sending out unpaid subscriptions but calling them paid) to inflate subscriber numbers to keep up their advertising rates.
Final 2006 "Proof of Global Warming" US Hurricane Count -> 0
About 5 years ago, I had just graduated Nursing School with my BSN. So, as one would expect I received a lot of solicitations for professional periodicals such as Nursing Weeky, etc. With one of these mags was offering to 2 free monthly issues - not an unheard of propositon. So I bit. Well the mag was relatively uninteresting and I opted not to persue a subscription.
Well guess what? You got it - I got a letter from the mag stating that my subscription was going to lapse and that I needed to renew asap. Funny thing is that I never subscribed, I just tried out the mags, so I ignored it. About a month later I got a letter from "North Shores" collections. I had to go to some lengths to get them off my back. I had to threaten the nursing rag by telling them that I would be forced to contact the States Attorney generals office (I lived in Madison, WI at the time). I also informed that I had recorded the phone conversation (which is legal in Wisconsin). After that conversation I received no further communiques from North Shores or the Nursing rag.
This tactic is pretty sleezy to say the least (and especially so from a professional medical periodical, or so I thought). Seems a not too uncommon tactic that many magazines attempt when their business are going to the into the red.
Wonderful business strategy. And by the way the magazine tanked. How pathetic.
First poster apparently thought he was being insightful by cancelling his subscription after reading of this fiasco, but then that must make me downright clairvoyant... because I never had one.
A couple of other individuals and I posted comments on this on Amazon's site a year or so ago to warn off potential subscribers. It's very, very old news. They haven't changed their ways.
I don't even read Wired any more, let alone subscribe to it. Bunch of articles posing as advertisements in between the normal advertisements.
Though you probably have the physical magazine, file a report against them at http://www.ifccfbi.gov/index.asp and then tell NorthShoreAgency that you have filed a fraud complaint against them with the FCC and the FBI and give them the reference number.
http://www.google.com/profiles/malachid