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Google Lawsuit Exposes Microsoft Offshoring Deal
2old2rockNroll writes "In more news from Microsoft's Google lawsuit, it appears that Ballmer's 2003 trip to China may have had as much to do with Microsoft moving jobs as selling software. It seems that the Chinese are not pleased with the number of jobs being moved to China, and one of Lee's duties was to identify jobs for export. Although hiring in Redmond has slowed, a Microsoft spokesperson admits they are "growing their work force" in China. Is it possible that Bill Gates' recent lament over the decline of US CS graduates and research spending was merely crocodile tears?"
on Slashdot are about the same company. *sigh* Go diverse news about technology!
"Is it possible that Bill Gates' recent lament over the decline of US CS graduates and research spending was merely crocodile tears?"
How many times do people need to be reminded? Investing in MS is risking having your own money used against you in the marketplace.
why is this significant again? Companies offshore all the time. Hell, some companies move their headquarters to different continents.
So supporting an international effort like Linux is OK but having off shore operations is not OK? No double standards here.
Saying Java is nice because it works on all OS's is like saying that anal sex is nice because it works on all genders.
Is it possible that Bill Gates' recent lament over the decline of US CS graduates and research spending was merely crocodile tears?"
That's called "marketing". Microsoft cries shortage, geeks raise their hands like an eager student with an answer in class. I sure as hell would take a job from Microsoft if given the opprotunity. I'd surely go to hell for it as well, but fact is... Microsoft is on top, and will be for a long time. With top-rung knowledge and experience, one can definitely sprint to retirement well before 99% of the people that (s)he graduated with from secondary school.
Other thing is, China has a lot of people. And a lot of smart people. Survey says: Cheap labour and lots of it.
Seriously. Bill Gates is about as genuine as all the emails I get from PayPal wanting to verify my account.
... at a game between Go masters, and white just removed a bunch of black stones from the board
"He who throws mud, loses ground." - proverb
And it will turn out this is all part of The Brain's grand skeem to take over the world. Narf, -Pinky
OMG! A global company is hiring people globaly!
People really, really need to put this into perspective.
Time for another round of "oh no, all our jobs are going to [insert country here]". Oh gebus. Spare me How many years of offshoring scaremongering do I have to put up with? I remember it from the 80s.
*sigh*
Microsoft outsourcing 1000 jobs to China equates to about 1.75% of its work force. (57,000)
In addition, it's very probable that most of those jobs are for non-critical, non-core projects. This frees up the local developers to work on more important projects.
Could Microsoft hire more local workers to fill these positions? Sure... but it's hardly news that Microsoft outsources 1.75% of its workforce.
I beleive this is the start of many lawsuits between microsoft in former employees! I wonder what a whistle blower would get if he or she cashed in.
And just a day or two ago, someone on Slashdot was telling me all about how at least Microsoft has never cut an American job for one overseas. Nyah nyah! :P
So when all the jobs are outsourced and everyone around the world is making $8/hr in the new Global Economy, who is going to be able to afford $200 for an operating system? Or $500 for Office? Or $1500 for Adobe?
Wow, a global company is hiring globally? The only thing that makes this interesting is the fact that it apparently came to light when it was found out that google was hiring there too. So now they should be called a copycat too?
Microsoft ships jobs outside the US, and they follow someone else's business model.
Remind me again how this is news please?
--- "To ignore race and sex is racist and sexist!" -- Jesse Jackson
Through his foundation bill has been funding us schools. Is it his fault that the whole damn country hates anyone capable of critical thinking, as well as anyone who uses words longer than 4 letters.
Why cant people just accept the fact that MS does these things for a logical business oriented reason. If you people have such a problem with their software why dont you get off your asses and go do something about it. Well this guys a hipocrit you say? Nay, Im moving to Washington next week to finish up my schooling at UW cause I know MS hires directly out of the UW Seattle CS Department
To think is to engineer, to engineer is to become God
Missed one: Microsoft sells software and hardware in, what, maybe a hundred countries now? China is a big market, and it's Asian, not Western country - sure they know better there how to make, adapt and sell software in Asian markets.
My other Beowulf cluster is... er...
Microsoft can't keep buying the U.S. government off forever; eventually, someone is going to assume the U.S. presidency who will actually allow the department of justice to enforce antitrust law and hold it for long enough for a case against Microsoft to be litigated.
It would be good if before that happens, Microsoft could hedge their bets with a nation that can truly understand and respect them. China understands that capitalism should be used as a tool of oppression, not a tool to fight it, so they're the perfect escape from any other nation who might sit up once in awhile, remember that monopolies hurt markets, and try to meddle in the internal affairs of a company just because they're committing injustice or breaking the law or something. Rupert Murdoch is big on China for the exact same reason.
So this is the 2nd or 3rd time this lawsuit has produced interesting titbits about M$. This thing is going to be the gift that keeps on giving. Get the popcord and sit back and watch.
I somehow suspect that M$ will continue coming off as anti-human, anti-worker and just plain nasty.
http://www.thebricktestament.com/the_law/when_to_
interesting years that i have seen... Microsoft attracts alot of lawsuit flies.
How's this for perspective? What kind of company do you think Microsoft would be today if Gates and Ballmer had been born and educated in India or China? What kind of computer geek hiring pool would they have had available to build the company up during their boom years? Do they owe the U.S. anything more than corporate taxes? I say yes, they do. They owe their very existence to the place and culture they grew up in. Instead of copping out with the Everybody-Does-It argument they should be using their business and innovation skills to find ways to keep as many jobs in America as possible, instead of selling them to the lowest bidder.
The weak can never forgive. Forgiveness is the attribute of the strong.
Mahatma Gandhi
I may be the only fool here who had no idea what "crocodile tears" are, but according to http://www.worldwidewords.org/qa/qa-cro1.htm, "to weep crocodile tears is to pretend a sorrow that one doesn't in fact feel, to create a hypocritical show of emotion. The idea comes from the ancient belief that crocodiles weep while luring or devouring their prey."
So now I know.
Microsoft is attempting to develop their products to work better for Asian users.
I can't imagine a better way to develop a product that they know will work well for the Chinese than to have it built in China.
Frankly, I applaud this.
World Changing - News for Humans, Stuff about our planet
This is news?
Any sect, cult, or religion will legislate its creed into law if it acquires the political power to do so.
So Windows XP was put together by the best brains that money could buy and it was OK - not great, not good, just OK. >90% of the worlds computers, for better or worse, run on this operating system, and its averageness has lead to a world where people still think that viruses, malware and spyware are an accepted part of computing and that its the 90% marketshare making it a target that has caused these problem.
Now its going to be designed by the best people money can buy, Microfied (viruses and bugs added - to improve the upgrade market) by the marketing dept, and then built by the cheapest labour on the planet. And this will improve stability and performance how? What about all those studies that show that its not the volume of coders that you need, its the quality?
Now I'm sure, given the right support, these Chinese coders have the potential to take over the world, but the fact is they'll get Mubai'd. Badly translated design sheets will arrive on their desks. They're managers will only be interested in the volume of code they produce (because thats an easier metric than quality), and the working environment will be sweat shop not think tank, and probably worse of all, if they find an inconsistancy in the design, they'll code through it as it will be cheaper than waiting for the world to rotate so that Redmond is awake enough to answer questions coherantly.
To all the banks, governments, militaries et al. The end is nigh. Start investing now in Linux or BSD. They're charities, so its tax deductable. If you want more control you can buy that too. What you want to invest in is the GUI and Office Suite. this is because good coders often find this bit boring, and need 'motivation' to want to do it in their spare time. The rest is pretty much there - at least its already better than a lot of windows. Just remember that you won't 'own' anything, but then you don't own Windows / Office either. I'm sure if you speak nicely to Linus he'll provide you with a "We support free software", or "Free software inside" banner for your websites, brochures and websites.
Scared of flying, pointy things snce 1979!
Uhhh, http://www.googledot.org/
If you are the Borg(hence your goal is to assimilate) you would make the same move as well. Why bother with a couple hundred million peons in America when you can consume billions in an Asian country? Statisticly and logically it's the smart move. It's all exponential. This little uprise from the Chinese is just their last struggle. They too will be assimilated. Rest easy little lambs, we will all soon become Borg.
Get the popcord and sit back and watch.
:-S
I'll just assume using a "pop cord" when enjoying a show is some kind of geek activity and move on...
Beware: In C++, your friends can see your privates!
Hello Gentlemen,
I'm a first year programming student at an Ivy League school and I've
just finished my Visual Basic classes. This term I'll be moving onto
C++. However I've noticed some issues with C++ that I'd like to
discuss with the rest of the programming community. Please do not
think of me as being technically ignorant. In addition to VB, I am
very skilled at HTML programming, one of the most challenging
languages out there!
C++ is based on a concept known as Object Oriented Programming. In
this style of programming (also known as OOPS in the coding community)
a programmer builds "objects" or "glasses" out of his code, and then
manipulates these "glasses". Since I'm assuming that you, dear reader,
are as skilled at programming as I am, I'll skip further explanation
of these "glasses".
Please allow me to make a brief aside here and discuss the origins C++
for a moment. My research shows that this language is one of the
oldest languages in existence, pre-dating even assembly! It was
created in the early 70s when AT&T began looking for a new language to
write BSD, its Unix Operation System (later on, other companies would
"borrow" the BSD source code to build both Solaris and Linux!)
Interestingly, the name C++ is a pun by the creator of the language.
When the first beta was released, it was remarked that the language
would be graded as a C+, because of how hideously complex and unwieldy
it was. The extra plus was tacked on during a later release when some
of these issues were fixed. The language would still be graded a C,
but it was the highest C possible! Truly a clever name for this
language.
Back to the topic on hand, I feel that C++ - despite its flaws - has
been a very valuable tool to the world of computers. Unfortunately
it's starting to show its age, and I feel that it should be
retired, as COBOL, ADA and Smalltalk seem to have been. Recently I've
become acquainted with another language that's quite recently been
developed. Its one that promises to greatly simplify programming. This
new language is called C.
Although syntactically borrowing a great deal from its predecessor
C++, C greatly simplifies things (thus its name, which hints at its
simpler nature by striping off the clunky double-pluses.) Its biggest
strength is that it abandons an OOPS-style of programming. No more
awkward "objects" or "glasses". Instead C uses what are called
structs. Vaguely similar to a C++ "glass", a struct does away with
anachronisms like inheritance, namespaces and the whole
private/public/protected/friend access issues of its variables and
routines. By freeing the programmer from the requirement to juggle all
these issues, the coder can focus on implementing his algorithm and
rapidly developing his application.
While C lacks the speed and robustness of C++, I think these are petty
issues. Given the speed of modern computers, the relative sluggishness
of C shouldn't be an issue. Robustness and stability will occur as C
becomes more pervasive amongst the programming community and it
becomes more fine-tuned. Eventually C should have stability rivaling
that of C++.
I'm hoping to see C adopted as the de facto standard of programming.
Based on what I've learned of this language, the future seems very
bright indeed for C! Eventually, many years from now, perhaps we'll
even see an operating system coded in this language.
Thank you for your time. Your feedback is greatly appreciated.
If you start offshoring then people see the writing on the wall. H2B visas for immigrants by companies is just to drive down wages. Nothing else. Just a smoke screen about not having the skills.
All big IT firms are doing the same thing. IBM has recently said that IT in this country is on the decline and they need more U.S. people in this field. Well, I guess that is the excuse that they are expanding their operations in India and China. On the other hand, they are lashing out 28000 jobs everywhere else. Go figure.
Through his foundation bill has been funding us schools.
The schools have attained self-awareness!
Our only chance is to strike them down while they are occupied futility arguing on Slashdot and are not creating weapons of ultimate doom out of cafeteria food.
"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
Linux could not exist without the Gnu compiler.
This is my sig.
Bill, looks like Americans don't understand what you say. Please continue to move the jobs to China.
Chinese are the nost aggressive people. I come from mixed background but in school I observed that, half of the Chinese students completed their Research even before they met their Prof every week and rest assured their neighbors, Indians were up on their feet to compete with them.....
Cheers!
noodles 2000 is in the extended support phase at the moment, so pleas take this opertunity to upgrade to noodles xp
pr0n: now ive got your attention click here
A fairly in-depth look here
C|N>K
I don't get Bill. He laments over the lack of CS graduates, but forgets that he himself never graduated. Perhaps that's his way of ensuring the students who are bright enough to drop out don't repeat his same mistake.
Heh, looks like black forced white to use a move up killing those dead stones -- now black has sente for the all-important endgame AND white has lost his best ko threat. I think that move decided the game for black.
Remember, folks, kibbitzing is the most important part of go!
In other news, this story is just 'China kicks US ass', and that's a truism in go as well as industry.
Whence? Hence. Whither? Thither.
Is it possible that Bill Gates' recent lament over the decline of US CS graduates and research spending was merely crocodile tears?"
Well, what would you do if you were sad that there weren't as many highly qualified CS graduates and research spending? I would start hiring people that ARE qualified. I think if you add the two ideas together, you don't get "Bill Gates is an evil man who says one thing and does another", although since this is slashdot, that's the default slant. You get "Bill Gates is sad that CS majors coming out of major US universities suck now, and he's realizing that asian people are smarter and work harder."
I'm sorry. The number you have reached is imaginary. Please rotate your phone 90 degrees and try again.
Not all of it, either. Mostly manual test, requiring little to no skill. For this kind of test, it sure would be a waste to pay someone in Redmond $60-70K/yr. Automated test, infrastructure, security, perf/stres, and all other critical test remains in Redmond so far.
What was said above was only about China, though. Indian insiders seem to push real hard to get not only testing, but also development and program management to India. However, since they aren't (yet) an overwhelmin majority here, only low-impact work items go to India, so that if folks in India fuck it up (and they often do), we could fix the situation without slipping the schedule much. Overall, I'd say "split" development leads to worse code quality, but it's still a lot better than if all of it was developed in India.
I know this article was most likely posted for anti-MS and anti-offshore hits. Because honestly thats all slashdot is good for nowadays, pissing people off and increasing their page impressions.
Anyway, the people in Asia are just as smart as us and just as educated. Not only that they work harder and for less money. Corporations have no nationalistic goals. As long as the governments in which they base do not hamper their profits they don't care. If the government does somehow infringe on them they either get out of town or make an investment in a new government.
The fact remains in order to compete with Asia we are going to have to work harder, invest more in education and sorry to say this... work for less. It is either that or unionize. Which will never happen.
The best education consists in immunizing people against systematic attempts at education. - Paul Feyerabend
In other news, you can often read that China allowed some foreign investment only if the investor makes significant concessions in form of technology transfer. Frequently, this takes the form of requiring a partnership with a chinese company. This way, the chinese make sure they get their part of the profits and get their hands on the know-how.
If Microsoft think they have a cushy retreat in China, they are in for a nasty surprise. As much as I dislike the way Chinese government tramples human rights, their ways of keeping greedy corporations in their place deserves some respect.
C - the footgun of programming languages
It's about the kindest, gentlest form of outsourcing I've ever seen. People are encouraged to move up the test food chain by either improving their coding or people management skills. Those who fail to do so, are given a three month window during which they can find a job within Microsoft (there are thousands of open positions, a lot of them in Test). I wish other companies would go to such great lengths to make things as painless as possible for regular employees.
I think Microsoft has had a very bad influence on CS job prospects (note: MCSE is not a CS job). However, the fact that they are now having to go to China is a case of being hoisted by their own petard; after they destroyed most of the interesting R&D jobs, they don't have a choice but to go to China. So, I think Gates's lamentations are sincere; he probably doesn't even understand what he has done to CS research in this country.
In any case, even without Microsoft's destructive influence, Chinese high-tech workers would still be competing with US high-tech workes. And the Chinese government is fully within its rights to demand that any company doing business with/in China move jobs there--the US government is doing the same thing.
The above article mentions that the gland that lubricates the eyes on crocodiles is near their throat, so crocodiles can appear to be tearing while eating. But it says nothing about the tears providing lubrication for their swallowing.
You have a reference for this? I can't google anything on it.
If I was Bill Gates when the USA tried to take his wealth from him with that BS lawsuit I would of told them to screw off, fired everyone in the USA and moved my company to another country. Hopefully this happens and don't go blaming old Bill if it does. Why would you want to be in a Country trying to rape you for cash?
[ brakken ]
I'm all for bagging Microsoft, but seriously, some people may actually consider this as an investment for Microsoft into another market demographic. They employ programmers all over the world. China is not an easy place to do business for Western Countries, if they were looking for cheap labour there are easier places to hire!
I have made it my purpose in life to make sure your company doesn't get a frigging dime. I recruit others, give them free software or alternatives. Just about ANYTHING I'll do to deny you the cash your company needs to survive.
Good luck in China, you won't be there long and your hated in most parts of the world and growing here in the US.
I know all about how Windows was purposely left "loose" to allow the Feds and spooks to hack into any PC they see fit.
You sold out to the devil and communism. Screw you.
Did you realize what you just gave away ?. It's called racial elitisim, but now with a nationalistic fringe attitude. You start off by giving away the unwanted and least important jobs to the immigrants or just plain offshore them, and before you know it you have a huge population of educated unemployed and per-capita income just comes crashing down.
Do you know how I know this ?. Look at my own state - Kerala. It has one of the highest literacy rates and unemployement rates - with most of the blue collar labour, food and money coming from outside states. The economy is in a mess, thanks to a government flip from Left to Right and back every 5 years. You try guessing why I'm not living there .. there are no Jobs.
Will you immigrate ?.Quidquid latine dictum sit, altum videtur
I don't see why this was modded funny.
Here is a theory:
large scale outsourcers are guilty of treason. Indict 'em, try 'em, convict 'em, sentence 'em, and hang 'em. Publicly.
Especially CEOs that outsource, and the politicians that aid and abet this treason.
This is treason. And the enemy is the corporate-investor power bloc.
And just leave the bodies hanging from the rope, to rot, just to remind people what this is all about.
You gotta get Old Skool, my fellow Americans, or else, ya gonna go 3rd world.
Just my ever humble opinion....
eat shiat and bark at the moon
Since Mr Lee is a Google employee, will he now be working on outsourcing Google jobs to China?
Ignorance is bliss. Have faith. etc.
In the west at the moment, stupidity, ignorance are integral to our culture, even those who are irreligious and are worn like badges of honour.
Deleted
Dude, nobody wants to hear about your sick masturbatory fantasies.
You're right. The article is sensationalistic crap.
The best of all is - the way he put it, it looks like while MS exports jobs, Google hires this PhD guy Lee to open a fucking kindergarten or something.
This is what Google-OS will loke like:
g i.it.sohu.com%2F20050904%2Fn240337911.shtml&langpa ir=zh-CN%7Cen&hl=en&ie=UTF8
http://www.google.com/translate?u=http%3A%2F%2Fdi
I've dealt with outsourcing and insourcing of people from India for many years and the talent level is very low. The long-term problems these deals have created are compounding. The turnaround time to make simple changes to a system are unbelievable. I can wait 2 weeks for a simple 1 line fix that should take 5 minutes. And the amount of communication and documentation it takes is amazing. Below are a list of issues with outsourcing to India and China: - talent level is low - personal drive is low - communication is near impossible - poor analysis skills (big part of quality IT); they sit and wait for spoon feeding - lack of understanding- unwillingness to fill in the obvious blanks - no "can do" attitude but there is a "can't do" attitude - very poor coding practices leading to much higher costs down the road - timezone differences - lack of trust - national security (how can American companies allow India and China to control our systems?) In summation, outsourcing and using low pay workers from other regions lowers IT systems quality and raises costs long-term. For me I've made a great consulting career cleaning up the messes created by this practice. Isin't outsourcing now called smartsourcing because outsourcing sucks? Outsourcing is pure political crap. Wesley Clark once said in a speech that IT systems should all be sent to other countries and America should focus on energy. That sums it up. The heart of the American company is IT systems and there are still people out there that want to put it in India and Chinas hands. America is in deep trouble if this continues.
Companies offshore all the time. The big significance of this is that Microsoft is one of those places where much of the R&D is still being done in the US. They probably perceive that they're not getting the same quality of new talent from the education system. Like it or not, the assertions that education overseas takes a much higher priority in people's lives is absolutely true. If the US doesn't want to become a nation of low-skilled workers and managers, we need to think about this.
Research and development will continue to move to countries where the workforce is better educated. If you don't want this to happen, and you have kids, you'd better beat it into them that the only way they'll be able to compete with millions of Chinese or Indians is through brainpower.
I don't know about the rest of the IT world, but I approach my job from an engineering perspective. I test, document, and research things very carefully. Consequently, stuff I build or design doesn't break often, and it's simpler to fix when it does.
I don't see this kind of approach followed by a lot of people in IT. There's a lot of "hack on it until it works" going on. Granted, sometimes that's the only way to solve truly wierd problems in a timely manner, but at least document your hacks!!
Last Wednesday I see this:
China Daily covers an anti-Linux FUD campaign being run by the China Software Industry Association. "Sun Yufang, a Chinese scholar who has long been researching Linux software, says most Linux developers cannot make a living under the current business model. Most of these developers 'either have died or have focused on other businesses in past years,' Sun says."
And then today:
Google Lawsuit Exposes Microsoft Offshoring Deal.
I wonder if these two events are in any way related?
Hmmmmmm..... Deep fried and look like Squirrel.
If you work for Microsoft, it's very significant. You may soon be fired as your job is done by two or three competent Chinese slaves. This is simply an enlargement of their Chinese that will cost 1,000 employees their jobs.
If use Microsoft, you might be concerned by your software's origin. Microsoft proudly claims to be a US company. That's getting harder for them to say. A few years ago, Microsoft swore in court that releasing the source code to Windoze would represent a national security risk. They have since sold peeks at that software to China and the former KGB. They have set up places in India and China to actually write their "product". So, owned in the US but made and developed in China. Nice.
This exposes the non-free software end game: slavery. Microsoft is non-free software. You can't share it with your friends, study it, improve it or even run it as you please. They have the backing of US and just about every other country's laws. They are also working on hardware, mostly made in China, that does not allow you to run anything else. With China's co-operation, they will win. China is also non-free, in the worst of ways and this is why it's so cheap to get things done there. Now, very few benefit from Microsoft's ownership of software and the intentional waste of the upgrade train. As Microsoft fires it's own employees, you will see that the ultimately only one or two owners with zero tech knowledge will benefit as the rest of us are stripped of choice, privacy, freedom of press.
It's ugly, very ugly.
Further reading can be found GNU:
Microsoft has never been your friend and friends that help you by screwing others will always turn on you. It's been said before and I'll say it again. Companies have obligations to customers, employees and share holders. A company that screws any one of these will eventually screw all three. It's all part of believing that it's OK to screw people.
Friends don't help friends install M$ junk.
That's funny. Way to go moderators! Mod the truth as flamebait.
Good show.
This slashdot-related signature is a stub. You can help kihjin by expanding it.
I'm not intending this remark as flamebait (I'm really not) and irrational responses will be ignored, but ... the benefits of "outsourcing" or "offshoring" as a part of the so-called "global economy" are obvious when it comes to nations such as China or India. The net effect is a massive transfer of wealth and hard-earned technology being made from the U.S. to those countries (among others.)
... at the cost of our own industrial base. And yes, it is our fault for allowing this to happen, but that doesn't change the fact that it is happening.
First question: can this be justified in terms of long-term economic benefit to the United States, or is it really just another form of foreign aid?
A number of posters seem to feel that other countries are somehow entitled to a chunk of the America's wealth (for reasons that can usually be summed up with "it's the global economy, stupid" which is just another way of saying "we want your stuff, dude.") Now that's all fine and dandy, but if a nation wants to be a "trading partner" with another, then both should reap substantial benefit: I simply do not see that happening in this case. Yes, we are getting a stream of cheap imports from China, Taiwan, Malaysia, you name it
Second question: from the perspective of U.S.-based business, is participation in the global economy worth what we're paying for it?
Up 'til the time of World War II, we were a pretty insular bunch here in the U.S. Our increased participation in world affairs stemmed from that period, and has expanded to where we have lost the economic independence that our Founders so worked so hard to leave us. In fact, our economic well-being is so intimately tied to that of other major (even hostile) powers around the world that we cannot really be considered "economically independent" at all.
Third question: Is this a good thing?
The higher the technology, the sharper that two-edged sword.
. . . I'd be dumping Windows due to Microsoft's selling out and offshoring jobs.
The campus may look the same, but the social behavior is different: the Chinese and Indians will steal any intellectual idea they find. Microsoft, like Cisco, will soon find itself competing with a Chinese mirror company with 200,000 programmers and complete access to their source code. Neither firm (Microsoft nor its Chinese clone) will produce a decent operating system, of course.
Someone mod up the parent post! You say more Asians are more intelligent / harder workers, and I say give me a break. Every race has hard workers _and_ lazy people.
MS has been trying to build bridges to China for more than seven years: first in founding Microsoft Research China (now MSR Asia), a pure research facility that eventually became an R&D wing. Kai-Fu Lee, the former exec being sued for going to Google, founded MSR China in 1998 and came back to Redmond in 2000.
Several years back Ballmer shook hands on a $100M outsourcing plsu $20M investment deal that senior management found it hard to live up to, and so they amended it to $55M in jobs and $60M in investments in Chinese IT.
If you look at the Seattle Times article, there are links to the court filings, including KFL's deposition, where he indicates that a major part of his work on MS's international business since coming back to the states, has been keeping MS from making blunders. These include making ill-advised promises that it hasn't been able to live up to, and (if it had) would have meant outsourcing at a rate that would strip American jobs, despite its assurances.
Mirosoft's China strategy is starting to fall apart as its hiring has slowed stateside and it becomes evident that it's trying to have its cake and eat it too.
ICQ: 28651394 = AIM/MSN/YIM: hsuwh = www.livejournal.com/~banazir
Many of them (outside the US), after all the trade deficit will make the dollar fall like a brick.
Agreed. Our lopsided trading habits are risking an ugly mega-bubble. The US no longer has any real comparative advantages. I cannot name any significant ones, can you? Innovation? Are 3 Indians for the same price really less innovative than one American? Dream on.
Table-ized A.I.
Get the popcord and sit back
You sick man
There are billions of dollars lost by MS to piracy in China... Moving jobs there is just a way to get the Chinese government to help crack down on piracy of MS products.
We could nuke them instead, guaranteeing US dominance for hundreds of years.
There aren't that many "best and brightest", you see. MSR China has been around for a looong while and I have yet to see anything significant to come out of it. As far as I'm concerned, as long as groups can be separated and as long as what MSFT gets back is state of the art software - go ahead, ship it over there. However, I have yet to see a top notch piece of code developed in PRC or India.
Over the entire dot-com "bust" there wasn't a single big layoff at Microsoft. Even when people are laid off, they're laid off in small groups and offered an opportunity to find a position elsewhere within he Co. As of right now I'm not aware of anyone technical who could not find such a position. There are also thousands of open positions, both here and in India/PRC.
And if you're GOOD, you have nohing to be afraid of at Microsoft, not for at least the next five years. Because there's a shortage of people who are GOOD.
How is it hypocrisy for MS to recognize this and decide not to wait a decade for the decline in CS grads to MAYBE reverse itself?
Americans liked capitalism until it started happening to us.
Actually Lou Dobbs has an hour show that airs at 6-7 p.m. ET Monday-Friday on CNN where he spends a lot of tyme about how American companies outsource. Here's a list of companies he keeps on Exporting America:
FalconShould there be a Law?
On the flip side, might as well invest money in their stock since they will screw you over anyway. Sort of like investing in oil companies two years ago.
I'm posting this so that you (the moderator) have some context to consider twitter and not mod him up whenever he posts his filler preformatted rants about installing Knoppix or Mepis or whatever that unfortunately get him karma every single time and allow him to continue posting his trademark toxic crap (read on) day in and day out. You may consider this a troll - I consider it community service. And I ain't kidding.
If you're a /. subscriber, I invite you to look through some of his posting history. I guarantee that you'll be hard pressed to find someone that is more "out there" than twitter. You'll also probably notice he's got quite an AC following. Don't just read his posts, make sure you go through the replies.
To get an idea of what I'm talking about, check this post out. This is an article about email disclaimers. The parent of the post is complaining about the ads in the linked page and so on, and twitter actually goes off on a rant to blame it on Microsoft and recommend Lynx, because "is teh free".
Here's another. In this post twitter not only calls the OP a troll but attempts to "tell it like it is" while making some vague argument about "GNU". Yes, if you're confused, you're not alone. The reply (modded +4) proceeds to simply destroy his bogus argument. You will notice he did not reply. This is what some people call "drive-by advocacy". A sort of I'll just leave you with my thoughts here and move on to the next flamebait kind of deal. In fact, he almost never replies because he knows that his fanatical arguments simply do not hold up to any sort of discussion. It's not that he's chosen the wrong cause - he's just going at it in a completely wrong way.
Here's that drive-by advocacy and FUD in motion: twitter goes on about some topic and then drops the usual "oh and M$ is teh evil" because "WMP phones home" or some such. Called on his FUD, he then claims that WMP stores every song and movie you've ever played in a file, somewhere. Pressed further, he just sort of slithers out of sight, his FUD-spreading complete. This is not about some Microsoft technology that nobody likes anyway; it's about lying for the sake of lying. Way too many of his posts are exactly like this one.
More? Just read though this post and the subsequent replies. I guess this stands on its own. Or these two. Or this one. Or this one.
Still not convinced? This is what twitter considers "humour" while going about his daily "M$" routine.
M
Us companies do not pay taxes on offshored labor, therefore its at least 7.65% cheaper--no payroll tax.
i am so very tired....
Please twitter, now that you've established that "M$" is indeed evil because they've showed the "Windoze" source code to the "KGB", enlighten us with your opinions on IBM, Novell, Sun, RedHat and every other software company that engages in outsourcing. And I'd like to remind you that you're posting on Slashdot, owned by OSDN, which makes products that help companies manage outsourcing (and they advertise as much).
C'mon now twitter, let's hear it. Let's hear how Microsoft is "firing its own employees". A link and some proof (instead of random links to Stallman's essays, which lately are also used to rationalize the pirating of Harry Potter books) would be welcome.
Thanks!
"Is it possible that Bill Gates' recent lament over the decline of US CS graduates and research spending was merely crocodile tears?"
Maybe Microsoft is searching for talent in China because the talent doesn't exist in the US in large enough numbers, which is why Bill Gates laments that there's not enough CS graduates in the US. I don't see the hypocrisy here.
Vote for Pedro
" Microsoft can't keep buying the U.S. government off forever; eventually, someone is going to assume the U.S. presidency who will actually allow the department of justice to enforce antitrust law and hold it for long enough for a case against Microsoft to be litigated."
So when is Apple going to be prosecuted for anti-trust violations? Rio just got put out of business. Apple is clearly leveraging two monopolies to strengthen each. Where's the justice? As you say:
"remember that monopolies hurt markets"
get a clue.
Vote for Pedro
But your language skills are grade school!
I think you fib.
Why TF do you produce such shit software? christ, you'd think the richest company in the history of humanity could create something that a. works, and b. can't be penetrated by a semi-skilled cracker in five minutes. sheeesh.
I have 2 technical degrees from one of the top universities in the world, I'm a published author, and I'm a director of IT architecture at a fortune 1000 company and I can't make head or tale of your post.
Since you seem to be somewhat intelligent, I'll assume its the 5th of Jack Black I just downed before dinner.
"It eyes sees you letter want perhaps?"
Its pretend theft.
And a lot of people have decided not to pretend anymore and the ease of copying means that if you built your business hoping everybody will pretend with you, then you're basically f'ed.
Too bad for people who thought everybody would play along with their pretend game of "intellectual property".
The perception of corporate america is that the colleges & universities aren't cranking out enough talent. Microsoft is turning to China because they're cranking out people that are qualified to do development work.
The real issue is that this is a vicious cycle: offshoring is done (only in part) due to a lack of qualified CS graduates in the U.S., but offshoring is one of the main reasons CS degrees don't look very good right now.
Your assumption regarding corporate motives is essentially correct. The same trend seen in white collar jobs can also be seen regarding blue collar jobs, except that those corporations that do the hiring "don't need no stinkin' visas". Depending upon who you rely upon for statistics, there are between 12 million and 28 million illegal aliens in the USA today. You don't actually think there are that many agricultural "migrant worker" jobs available, do you?
In 2003, 78,000 IT workers in Connecticut were layed off. That same year, Connecticut IT employers requested (and received) 68,000 additional H1-B visa slots from Congress.
In 2000, the Clinton administration prosecuted 334 USA employers for knowingly having hired illegal aliens. In 2003, the Bush administration prosecuted only 13 USA employers for the same criminal activity.
These are neither isolated or unrelated factoids -- they are illustative of what our Federal government, "our" Congress-critters, and our "true-blue" USA corporations are doing every day.
BTW:
H1-B visa: foreign white collar worker under contract to a domestic employer.
L1-A visa: foreign white collar worker transferred from domestic employer's overseas subsidiary.
The numbers of both types of white collar worker visas have gone up dramatically in the last five years.
And yet for another Slashdot'n against the (cough, ahem) dual-axis "evil" empires, Chinese leader visits Microsoft campus.
Obligatory link
It's rather simple, really. Your money is being used to help other companies build their empire. If they succeed they pay you back - with interest according to their success. If they fail, it's a losing proposition.
:).
Check out fool.com or any other investment site for investment 101 info. You don't need a lot of money to start investing and everyone should be. Social security probably won't be around to take care of us when the time comes, even if it is that wouldn't be much of a life
-everphilski.
Are any of these better now?
a) GUI programming
b) Batch / File processing
c) RPC based processing
d) Browser rendered content
e) Numerical
Only RPC based processing (.NET remoting, Java, etc) is any better or easier than it was in 1995.
The last 10 years haven't impvoved upon most software development functional areas.
The fad based software development buzzwords over the last decade haven't helped improve the quality or productivity of software developers.
It's not a matter of races. It's a matter of needs. Americans have had a level of welfare good enough for a long time, and no longer have to work really hard to have a decent live. An average American without any degree can work six hours a day and have the goods almost everyone else (excluding Europe) can't even dream about. I live in a South American country, and my wife, an engineer that speaks five languages, has a master degree and an excellent professional background doesn't make half as much as a hamburger cook makes in the US. And stuff here isn't any cheaper than in the US. So we have to work hard to get the same an American gets barely working. It's not that Americans are lazy. They are just practical. If you can live decently working eight hours a day, why work sixteen? Chinese (and other people around the world) can't afford that luxury.
Not trashing Asian IT workers, since they often outproduce Australians in Australia and are generally no more incompetent, but I really don't think you grok the focus of "important" in the eyes of Microsoft's management.
Got time? Spend some of it coding or testing
D'oh!
Got time? Spend some of it coding or testing
I am in complete agreement with the poster that this is alomst non-news. A global company is hiring people globally. How else would you have good design in different language? I sincerly doubt all the mono speaking Americans work efforts could produce products acceptable to most of the people on the world. So a thousand people to serve more than a billion people sounds pretty conservative to me. I would think that they would need tens of thousands of people to stay competitive in the Chinese market.
Bill Gates onced remarked that after the Chinese, South Indians were the smartest people in the world. I am hereby correcting his perception of the Chinese. They are better than South Indians at just one thing - Industrial Spying. The South Indians are born mathematicians and are the smartest. They do not resort to spying of any kind. Although their mentality and thought processes need to be revamped concerning concepts such as Money, Wealth and Self Esteem, I would still take them anytime, anywhere, cause they are reliable. And now, we have the Chinese President visiting Microsoft and to add insult to injury, he's Insulted - yes, Insulted, for crying out loud -because Bill did not export enough of our livelihoods to the Communists.
First off, what the fuck is slashdot? Don't answer, because I frankly don't give a shit. Who the hell do you people think you are? HOW FUCKING DARE YOU send me UNSOLICITED MAIL - That means SPAM in case you fuckwits don't know it. How stupid are you people? You send me spam that says ---- Public Service Announcement Brought to You by SPAMIS : Strategic Partnership Against Microsoft Illegal Spam Oh, so you are against Microsoft Illegal spam and you want to bring people's attention to it by SPAMMING OTHER PEOPLE? Get a fucking clue you assholes. And no, I did not "sign up" because the ONLY place the address you spammed me at is listed is on my domain name registrations. Also, why did YOUR spam come to me with MY OWN address as the "Sender"? Easy. Because YOU ASSHOES ARE SPAMMING. Go fuck yourselves. How can you be taken seriously? You are obviously not AGAINST spam because you SPAM people. P.S. Moderate the fuck out of this. See if I care. FUCKWITS
I do not need your e-mails, and I do not care for the same stuff you do... You are the same shit you're supposed to fight. LEAVE MY INBOX ALONE!!, YOU ARE THE TRUE FUC##@ COWARDS!!!
Tata Consulting is hardly a picture of success. Their Oracle pros cheerfully admit that they're given 120 days of Oracle training and are declared, by Tata, to be experts. These experts brought down the whole production system of a major publishing company for almost two days to the tune of $6 million in losses - 6 times the $1 million savings which the publishing company boasted about. They will also cheerfully tell you that they're just using said publishing company as a proving ground so they can get jobs at G.E. And yet the layoffs continue and more Tata folks are brought in. But I will givem them this. They have successfully emulated the same contempt that most US consulting companies have for their clients. I guess that's something.
From what you write, it sounds like Tata is most definitely a picture of success. Despite poor performance, they keep getting more customers, and they make more money. That sounds like success to me.
Success, for a business, is not how good a job it does. It's how much money it makes. If their products are crap, yet people keep giving them lots of money, the company is successful. Microsoft is a great example of this. Don't confuse "quality products and services" with "business success".
Personally, I think that if Americans are stupid enough to keep hiring more and more Tata people even though it's hurting them in the long run, then more power to Tata. "A fool and his money are soon parted", and they usually deserve to be parted.
That really pisses me off. I'm a freelance programmer and I depend on this country having a good tech reputation for getting work. Plus, why send technology over-seas, when we've seen that technology has the major impact on economic development. Its almost as though microsoft wants China to be richer and the US to be poorer. I wonder who in Microsoft is making these decisions. Anyways, I'm going to start moving on over to Linux, cause this just pisses me off. Screw them all!