Slashdot Mirror
FEMA Demands Use of IE To File Online Katrina Claims
WebHostingGuy writes "As reported by MSNBC, if you survived the hurricane and are a Mac, Linux or Firefox user you cannot file a claim online. Further, you must have javascript enabled or face rejection. From the site: 'We are sorry for not being able to proceed your requests because you have failed our tests.' Opera and Netscape don't work either." Also reported at InformationWeek. From that story: "To file a claim online at FEMA's Individual Assistance Center, where citizens can apply for government help, the browser must be IE 6.0 or later with JavaScript enabled. That cuts out everyone running Linux or the Mac operating systems, as well as Windows users running alternate browsers such as Firefox or Opera. When TechWeb tested the site using Windows XP and Firefox 1.0.6, the message 'In order to use this site, you must have JavaScript Enabled and Internet Explorer version 6. Download it from Microsoft or call 1-800-621-FEMA (3362) to register' popped up on the screen." Update: 09/08 13:48 GMT by Z : Added word 'Online' to title to clarify story.
... i'd just love to know what feature they're requiring that everyone else DOESN'T have... I wonder if opera using it's browser masking could do it?
Shadus
...FEMA certainly knows how to get things done! (efficiently too!)
"George Bush doesn't care about Mac people!"
I had a sucky sig.
Doesn't the disabilities act apply to FEMA? And doesn't that require a certain level of website?
From TFA:
____
~ |rip/\/\aster /\/\onkey
It's not that they can't file claims without using IE... they just can't do it online. If you've ever tried programming javascript for client side error checking of complex forms, you know that standards are very non-existant in the internet world. I completely understand why they would only want people using IE to register, especially if they didn't have much of a tech support staff. It's near impossible to cater a web app to every single flavor of every browser for every OS.
"You had this look that of an angel, it was such a bad disguise" --Dishwalla
That's quite okay. I'd rather FEMA spend resources getting their arses to help the people instead of designing a better web portal.
If you think thats even in the top hundred things FEMA has gotten wrong on this, you haven't been watching the news.
Its a non-issue. A tiny percentage of real users have heard of anything other than IE, and an even tinier percentage of people who need FEMA support have electricity, internet access or a computer anymore.
If you all are going to get bent about something FEMA is doing, get bent about the fact that phone and internet is the only way to register and most refugees have neither. Or get bent about the fact that 90% of calls don't go through to the FEMA number.
This is just rediculous to get worked up about. Who cares? If 1% of thet people affected have internet access, and 1% of those use Firefox (and happen to be using someones computer that has Firefox and not IE), then out of the million people affected, what? 100 might have a problem? 100 people tech aware enough to use firefox? They probably can find a damn cell phone.
Next you guys will have to use Windows to be considered citizens, get passports, a social security number...
How can a government possibly limit it's services to people who use a certain software package? Is this discrimination? What would happen if it said "Sorry but because you're black you can not use this website" ?
Yeah, that would be an issue...
Likewise M$ stated that they will no longer support the Mac period because basically they have Safari.
"Slashdot, where telling the truth is overrated but lying is insightful."
Clearly the government doesn't care about minorities. Only educated, rich, Windows users can apply for aid online.
(Funny, not flamebait)
They should not put anything up until the site is 100% cross-browser compatible.
Obviously.
I'm surprised this is even an issue for anyone. There is a huge disaster recovery effort going on and they need to have things working as soon as possible. If it requires IE, then that's just how it's going to be for the time being. There are other methods to file your claim (and let's face it, if you're online, you've got it better than 99% of the refugees who are stuck in a shelter).
Jesus saved me from my past. He can save you as well.
You win!
IE on the Mac stopped at 5.5. There is no IE 6 for the Mac.
At some point, somewhere, the entire internet will be found to be illegal.
It's amazing, just a quick online form and they get a huge chunk of money I earned. I'm so glad the federal government decided to branch off into the free insurance business at my expense.
If you've ever tried programming javascript for client side error checking of complex forms, you know that standards are very non-existant in the internet world.
You shouldn't use clientsided checking, as the golden rule in web developing is that you can't trust the client, EVER. Clientsided checking should only be used as a convenience for the user (save the user a trip to the server and back because he forgot to fill in something), not for anything serious. You have to check input at the server script anyway, so why not allow non-javascript browsers?
9 times out of 10 when sites demand that you use IE, it works fine with other browsers as well and the check is completely unneccessary. Just damn lazy site creators who assume it will take a lot of resources and time to verify that the site works with other browers.
Being bitter is drinking poison and hoping someone else will die
Now we Linux and Mac users from all over the world can try to test the site. That will at least help stress the servers to the point that simply no one will be able to file their requests.
my other sig is a 500 page novel
This just one of a growing number of complaints against the FEMA. It's so bad that some are calling for its director, Micheal Brown, to be fired. Apparently, he's had problems in prior positions as well, as described HERE
Also, to address your point, I'm guessing that people will be filing their claims OUTSIDE of those areas.
I'm sorry, but that's not just true anymore. It's what I do, every day - and where JS/Client side scripting was hellish in the late 90's there are plenty of examples of complex and mature javascript driven apps. Claiming that it's all too hard is the easy way out, there are standards, they are supported, widely amongst modern clients and it's just lazy to say, "screw it, we'll make it work in IE and nothing else".
You should also never be mandating error checking of complex forms on the client side because you can't control the client-side. If it's complex enough that you can't reliably deploy it in JS, you should be writing that logic into the server side code.
<? include ('signature.inc'); ?>
I think in the end you're probably better off just using the telephone. They're more likely to understand technology thats been around for more than 100 years.
"MS-Internet" is confusing to them.
No France
This is an example of what happens when you remove the public from participation in routine activites. One reason the gov't especially on public information systems should invite citizens to give them feedback is to prevent this kind of problem: people with older computers can't file. (this is a much bigger problem than Mac/Linux)
Back in the day, FEMA was drilled and had a civilian function though the Civil Defense program. FEMA was well drilled and practiced at large scale disasters because it was busy preparing to deal with what happens after a massive nuclear strike. In the 80s much of FEMAs prepositioned assets were sold off (as opposed to updated) - handy stuff like surgical kits, sealed ready for action truck-in hospitals, pre-built emergency clinics, ready to go tent towns and prepositioned ration reserves. I bought some stuff at a local government auction when it happened, too (nice tents, cots, surgical kits make nice fly tying tools).
The cold war era FEMA would have easily handled this disaster. The military commad structure would not have been nearly so worried about waiting for approval from a clueless governor or a mayor who was stuck in a location with limited communication capacity. Sometimes it is better to ask forgiveness from the politicians than the public.
-- $G
"FEMA Demands Use of IE"
Is this FEMA demanding? Or an ignorant IT services supplier supplying a solution which only works on the IE6 platform? Or (horror of horrors) is this system an in-house job?
Maybe FEMA need to revist their IT procurement strategy - if they have one.
In a situation like this, I would have thought that every effort would be made to make the application process accessible to everybody.
Having endured very similar circumstances, last year with hurricane Ivan, I can tell you that cell phones worked a month before any land lines or internet.
I can also tell you that the people waist deep in this disaster really appreciate the media and Slashdot slashdotting the FEMA site right when they need it the most. But, at least you worthless bastards are doing your part by whining about their choice of browser, stuff that really matters! The browser debate was really important to me when I had no water or electricity for a month!
That isn't the issue. The issue is that FEMA created a website for people to file claims and because if it's poor, incompetent and idiotic design (according to reports, the page works great with the IE user agent), people are barred from accessing that functionality. That's the problem. No one is advocating that the FEMA people stop all operations so that they can focus on fixing the site.
When a public institution sets up a service with the tax payer's money for the tax payers to use and in the end there are clients which *UNNECESSARILY* can't access the service, that is just plain incompetence.
Slashdot, fix your code or at least hire someone who is competent at it to do it for you.
This is exactly why I posted to Ask Slashdot (rejected) to ask what everyone thought about putting together some type of generic system for disaster victims.
Disasters may be the worst time for requiring proprietary systems.
There has been some discussion on isc.sans.org about the Red Cross needing IT volunteers to develop their system.
My idea is that most of us have extra stuff laying around that could easily be used with a customized Knoppix type CD (no HD keeps the cost down and the system intact up). The systems could be used to get shelters online (some corp can provide the circuit for Internet access). On the backend there could be a DB for victims.
Also, a lot of these people have lost EVERYTHING. A barebones computer that gets them online is better than no computer at all.
And what better way to introduce more people the world without MS.
Keep the Classic Slashdot.
Because a lot of users will be at libraries trying to file their claim on public computers which are probably not running IE6 and will probably be running Win98
Yes, I'm sure that they have their web developer out in a helicopter right now scanning for survivors. Give me a break. Someone is paid to maintain and support this website, and he or she is not doing his job well.
If your code is REMOTELY standards compliant then it'll pretty much work on every browser. You have to really lock yourself into Active X and .Net before you run into true incompatibility, which means you have to decide from the start to use a platform that you know is imprefectly supported.
If this was a business, fine, who cares. But this is a disaster relief agency funded by taxpayer dollars, and they goddamn well better have a site that can be viewed by all citizens who need to view it.
Just part and parcel with the rest of their collossal incompetence during the current distaster.
And don't tell me they have better things to do; I haven't seen 'em do hardly anything yet. They could have used the week after the hurricane, when they were sitting around with their thumbs up their asses while everyone else was doing their job for them to at least make a webpage that could at least be viewed by the people who're still using older versions of IE!
ad logicam Claiming a proposition is false because it was presented as the conclusion of a fallacious argument.
I can see it already..
... User accepts pre-defined choices in the following categories.... ... User declines the right to recall.... ... User hereby waives right to request a recount.... ... User will be registered to vote in a state of Microsoft's chosing as needs require....
Download Microsoft Vote(tm) for the next election!
Anyone without a Genuine Advantage Entitled Windows XP Service pack 2 must either upgrade or not be able to register to vote. Available also for Windows MobileXP.
From the EULA
---------
Miles and miles away, in the White House....
*computer*
Good morning mister president
*POTUS*
Good morning computer, what are my orders today?
-if at first you don't succeed, stay the heck away from paragliding.
OMG! Only 90% of the people are going to be able to file a claim online! Assuming those people didn't have their computers destroyed in the flood.
What if you're running virtual PC on a mac?
That whooshing sound was you missing the point entirely.
More
IE on Mac stopped at version 5.2.3, not 5.5.
The version of IE for Mac had very little to do with the Windows versions. Different code base etc. I tried to use it recently and most sites that require IE won't work with IE for Mac anyway so there is really very little point in having it. The thing is so slow it isn't funny and the look of it is quite unlike modern Mac applications as it is still covered in the old pinstripe stuff. Safari is much better and has much greater compatibility than IE for Mac these days so yes, MS is right, there is no need for IE for Mac.
"I have the attention span of a strobe lit goldfish, please get to the point quickly!"
I don't think anyone has lost focus to the fact that there are bigger problems.
Having said that, the whole situation is bringing other issues to light as well. Requiring IE (6 or later) is just stupid and puts up another hurdle for some of the people seeking assistance.
This is the type of system that should be designed to conform to industry standards and the lowest common denominator. After a disaster we shouldn't be picky. Maybe all the "good" PCs got destroyed.
Keep the Classic Slashdot.
If you're going to start looking at who did what wrong, you should at least get your facts straight.
First of all, FEMA has been largly dissolved into the Department of Homeland Security. That means that their resource level has changed.
Second, FEMA had staged three days before the hurricaine hit.
Third, the Mayor of New Orleans knew that a category 4 hurricaine was coming, and didn't declare a mandatory evacuation until 24 hours before the hurricaine struck.
Fourth, George Bush told the NO Mayor to evacuate two to three days before that, but was ignored.
Fifth, the NO Mayor tried to declare martial law. The NO Mayor doesn't have the power to declare martial law. S/he must request the Governor do that.
Sixth, in order for the Federal government to get involved, the state government must declare a state of emergency, then declare that it cannot cope with the emergency without further assistance, and request that the Federal government provide that assistance. There is Federal law by which Fed (which includes both FEMA and the National Guard) is barred from assisting with a disaster without the express request by the state. Besides, didn't the mayor and governor state that they wanted this resolved locally?
Seventh, one third of the NO police force abandoned their duties. I have heard arguments that they had a duty to their families, first. Sorry, but I just don't buy that. If you take up a position to serve your society, take an oath, and put on a uniform - be it police, military, or other - you fulfill your duty. You don't go off and loot. You don't abandon your post because it's tough. You do your duty.
Now, you may believe that the Federal government obeying the law, and waiting until it's invited is a bad thing. I happen to believe that the Fed should not break the law, and that when the government obeys the law, that's a good thing. You can argue that the law is incorrect, but be careful about abdicating power from the people, or from the states to the federal government.
As they say, not FEMAs fault
"It is a greater offense to steal men's labor, than their clothes"
Client-side error checking is an optional extra. It's not necessary. The only things that are necessary to take information down from people are standard HTML forms that work in any browser.
Cross-browser client-side validation isn't exactly rocket surgery either though. Checking field values in anything more recent than Netscape 4.0 is essentially identical.
No, it's not. It's difficult to do so if you want to incorporate fancy extras like animation, complex styling, dynamic page sections, etc, but none of that kind of thing is needed for a government website intended to take down peoples details. All they need are standard HTML forms with cookies to maintain state - things that have been working reliably in common browsers for a decade or so.
Bogtha Bogtha Bogtha
something tells me the mail might not get through to New Orleans addresses for a while...
Something like this, perhaps.
You imply that making the form perform well for non-IE6 web browsers would have required more resources than making it perform well for only IE6.
A multi-browser interface requires a different design, not necessarily a more expensive one.
It was likely more a case of FEMA doing a poor job of anticipating the needs of their customers.
If it was important enough for FEMA to spend resources to create an online form, it should have been important enough to take into account how people would likely access the form.
Seems to work fine in opera 7 so long as you Identify as MSIE 6.0. No problem with the capcha or anything.
Of course, I didn't finish the registration process fully, so I can't say for sure. But it looks like the broweser banning is just a choice on their part rather than a technical limitation.
The ______ Agenda
Comment removed based on user account deletion
I think in the end you're probably better off just using the telephone
--krrrr click--Thank you for calling FEMA, we regret to inform you that since you're using a Nokia mobile phone, we cannot connect you to an operator, please switch to a Motorola cellphone to make full use of our services. -bzzz- Have a nice day. --bleep--
I honestly hope you are not a web developer seeing as how you have absolutely no clue how design/development works.
It isnt difficult to make it cross platform, and basically if you code to the standard most browsers will work, then you just modify a bit here and there so that IE will now work.
it isnt a big deal.
and it just goes to show how truely incompetent a lot of developers are.
For Pete's sake - let's cut the propaganda for once. I've been helping out at the Dallas convention center for the past five days and I can tell you first and that, for the people I've encountered anyway, they have very, very limited computer skills. Most of them were very poor prior to Katrina and owning a computer was never truly an option. It's not like they're sitting there, pulling out their self-built box, and saying "Ah shit - Damn FEMA for forcing me to install IE". I'd be shocked if more than a handful have even heard of Linux or Firefox, nevermind using it. The people that are affected by FEMA's choice certainly have the skills, knowledge, and ability to handle this very, very minor situation. The rest of us, quite frankly, don't really care.
just to let you know...I evacuated from New Orleans to Houston, Texas, I brought an extra tshirt and shorts and my powerbook G4. I tried to register via online and of course the stupid thing required internet explorer 6. So I had to call the toll free number which was inundated and took me hours. Also to check in on your account, you can loging with pin -password but of course it requires IE 6. Agency is just moronic.
That's not true. Opera works. I spent last weekend volunteering at the Reunion Arena shelter in Dallas. We booted one machine with Knoppix because the Windows install was bad. Mozilla and Konquerer failed to load the page correctly. So I downloaded Opera and it worked. Unless FEMA have gone out of their way to eliminate Opera, you should be able to register with Opera. In other words, there is nothing on that page that Opera cannot handle. We've registered a few hundred people already and a few with Opera.
The stupid site really ticks me off. Even with IE you will have problems. I think they did the stupid thing in ASP. Every stupid action you take requires exchange of states between you and the server. If you click before that's complete it will give you and error and you might have to start all over. There was nothing on that page that could not have been done with simple HTML
BTW, yesterday was the first day FEMA started working fully in Dallas. Their computers couldn't network properly so they had to take over OUR PCs to register people by doing exactly the same thing we've been doing. Not only that, they only want those computers, which do not belong to them, to be used only for FEMA registration. In the words of a FEMA worker, "People need money not email or Internet." That would be great if they all knew where the family was or our government was competent enough to provide them with that information. Unfortunately, most people have to look for their family on their own on the Internet.
EvilCON - Made Famous by
Maybe not, but let's go ahead and slashdot the registration site just in case.
There are no towers. Central Offices are down. Emergency power generation is flooded. How can you say that cell phones work? Please note the massive demand for sat phones right now precisely because of this. But thank you for applying annecdotal evidence that isn't applicable.
This comment is guaranteed*
*not guaranteed
George W. Bush IS himself a mac user.
Which means he'd better fire the FEMA director for this one... as a fellow Mac using Republican, I would expect no less! Either that, or beat him with his iPod.
There ought to be a law that says that all government web pages are standards-compliant and do not call for users to use a specific company's product to use them.
Why people like the FSF aren't out there pursuing this instead of trying to ram political stuff into GPLV3, is what I want to know.
In the middle of the largest disaster ever to befall the country, Slashdot goes and performs the Slashdot effect upon the website that takes claims.
Good work and foresight, there, editors.
And, you don't HAVE to Have IE 6 with JS enabled to file a claim. You could just use a TELEPHONE.
"Champagne for my real friends - and real pain for my sham friends!" http://ericblade.postalboard.com/
But, to continue the pedantic trend, the systems in question aren't truly Turing-complete.
;)
They've got finite memory, don't they?
Your logic is seriously flawed. First of all, FEMA is a COORDINATOR of emergency services. This includes coordination at all levels from first aid and plucking from roof tops to getting people the information and help they need to get longer term assistance and aid across different agencies. FEMA is not providing helicopters, money or food directly. Again, they are cordinating emergency responders. Not every one of the million or so people effected by the storm in the area is at the same point or condition. You can not wait and devote every resource (including your contracted web developer like you suggest) until every single person is out of the city before you start working with the people that are already out. The emergency response is a parallel effort, not serial. Many people are at the next level and need to apply for assistance now. There is an artifical barrier in place that may make the application harder or more difficult for some people. I agree that FEMA is all jacked right now though.
Bad boys rape our young girls but Violet gives willingly.
In particular, a lot of people use client-side error checking instead of server side, for which they should be taken outside and shot. Client side error checking is a nice thing so the user doesn't waste a form submission, but is not a replacement for properly validating user input.
Sorry, just fed up with everyone who knows Visual Basic and/or what the <script> tag does calling themselves a web application developer.
Just to add to this story...I was listening to a local talk radio station on my way home from work yesterday. They played an interview with a woman who was extremely frustrated, almost to the point of tears, with FEMA and their apparent lack of knowledge on the situation of people displaced by Katrina.
She called them in order to make a claim and they asked her for her address so they could send her the required paperwork (not sure HOW she called them). She told them she no longer had an address as her home no longer existed. They then asked for her home phone number so they could call her back...she again informned them she no longer had a home. They then asked for her cell phone number. She again told them there was no cell phone service where she is located. They then asked her for her fax number...then her email address....you get the picture.
FEMA's motto must be "Let's make it hard for people to get the support they need."
Is FEMA living in a hole, in a cave, in the middle of a desert or what?
Surely they can be nailed on the accessibility.
There is a nice helpful link on every page saying that they are committed to accessibility.
There is even a email address, to allow people who think that accessibility to this site is sub-optimal, to contact them.
If you know anyone who feels this way, maybe they should send an email to
FEMAOPA@dhs.gov
and I'm sure they will be pleased to sort it out.
Humorous signatures are over-rated.
If you are using Proxomitron and Grypen's Latest Filters for Proxomitron, then this sites "IE only requirement" becomes VERY easy to bypass.
How do you we do this once Proxomitron and Gryphen's filters are installed? Easy! Open up
User - Include - Exclude.txt
Then add the following into this file.
www.fema.gov $SET(keyword=.js.ajs.code.flash.popup.iesite.)
Once this is done - you can now visit the site using any god damn browser you want. In my case I tested the registration page under Opera, Firefox, and Mozilla, and as far as FEMA site was concerned, this was my user agent.
User-Agent: Mozilla/4.0 (compatible; MSIE 6.0; Windows NT 5.1)
So really, I don't know why moronic webmasters, especially for a government or government related site, want to pull shit like this for users whom may not know how to get around "IE only" requirements.
You must master your joystick like a fisherman masters bait! - Gimpy
Perhaps it is not my place to write this here, since I am not a citizen of this country. Hence I will remain just an anonymous voice of a coward, but, somebody got to say this.
It is your own damn fault that things like this happen. It is you who need to stand up, write to your congressmen, and demand that laws would be passed where public information as well as public government websites be made available indiscriminant of the tools the citizens have to access them. And if the citizens do not have the tools to access them, the government should provide those for free (how expensive is it to provide an iso image of a bootable CD that has a browser - pick a choise of quite a number these days).
All of the government websites should be required by law to be written for the lowest common denominator between all the browsers adhering to the most widely supported HTML standard among them all.
I think this kind of follows in the same tracks as serving the blind and the deaf, they are a minority, yet they are just as important members of this society. Perhaps lynx users are also a minority, yet I do not find any reason to think why they would be any less valuable members of it.
Yes, most of the blind and the deaf became not of their own choosing, and yes, not all of the lynx users are using it because they just love it. There are times when circumstances limit you to using a particular browser, say IE no matter how much you hate it, however I would expect to be able to access my government's site no matter what browser I have at hand at the moment.
So get off your behinds, and do something about it, because I cannot do that for you, your government does not allow me to.
As it happens, the mobile networks in New Orleans were completely knocked out by this. It wasn't until Saturday that Verizon and T-Mobile were able to get their services semi-operational. Sprint PCS is having problems, and Cingular didn't comment in the report I read on the subject (I know they're all doing what they can.) Landline service is spotty in the area, with many exchanges waterlogged.
Of course, this in some ways is beside the point. Nobody trying to contact FEMA for a Katrina claim is actually in New Orleans at the moment. That said, a large effort to keep Katrina refugees in contact with the outside world via Internet kiosks is underway, and this type of thing will directly hurt that.
You are not alone. This is not normal. None of this is normal.
I appreciate and agree with the parent post that this is not nearly the biggest concern right now, but it IS just one more slap in the face for everyone trying to file claims with anything other than Windows/IE6.
I work in this industry and can assure readers with no uncertainty that such users comprise well more than 1% of the computing population. Recent numbers put non-IE6 use for a number of popular sites anywhere between 12-26%. My read is that US government sites will currently attract a number at the low end of that range.
Whether or not site compatibility is a priority right now IS debatable so long as people have other means of contact but this should NEVER have happened in the first place.
In Baton Rouge following the storm, cell phones for all practical purposes were as useless here as in New Orleans. Whether this was due to damage to infrastructure or network overload, I couldn't tell you.
Proud member of the American Non Sequitur Society. We might not make much sense, but boy do we love pizza!
I have gone through this with a number of organizations.
I have found that writing emails about the situation, the existence of the World Wide Web Consortium standards body, and the existence as well as compliance of "other browsers" with the w3.org standards.... politely, usually results in the site getting updated when the organization gets a chance.
Nobody wants to have their organization as being seen as backwards technically or with regards to standards.
Please do no just complain about this issue on slashdot. Send a polite not to FEMA.
Collecting people data and filing claims is basically same for any disaster. So FEMA should have made a portal that supports popular browsers long *before* Katrina hit.
I might agree that this is not the biggest fuckup of FEMA but it's just one more proof that lots of people there are not doing their job.
BTW, many people were writing that refugees don't have computers and Internet access to use this portal anyhow. Most of the refugees by now are located outside of the disater area and any (or most) town libraries have Internet access. So Internet may be the best way for them to file claims and look for relatives.
Now all of those homeless nomads won't be able to use all that spare electricity and bandwidth going around the Gulf Coast to get help unless they bow to the power of Microsoft! Have any of you worked in a government agency? I do. It isn't even remotely what you think. It is far worse. I am mandated to only develop using Microsoft technologies. If I go above and beyond and make sure my stuff works on anything else (mozilla (which I use) etc...) there is a good chance a mozilla or opera user will be denied access anyway.
--Always, I mean never..., No I mean always check your references.--
I for one welcome our IE browser overlords. This type of forced standardization by government experts is exactly what we need. It's too confusing to support more than one operating system and browser when writing evil attacks.
"As for the future, your task is not to foresee it, but to enable it." - Antoine de Saint-Exupery
Incompetence.
This is part of a string of bad moves from FEMA. Brown is a serial Incompetant. This is a man kicked out of the International Arabian Horse Association for gross stupidity.
Sorry about the writing. Robot fingers, you know? Cliff Steele in DOOM PATROL #23
Guys, given we are Slashdot, we should try not to all go to the offending site, and test it in Lynx with a changed user-agent and send millionsof emails to their support department. We need to keep this site up so ppl can submit submit their Hurricane claims.
You gotta love their disclaimer...
"unless an undue burden would be imposed on us"
Who, exactly, decides what is an "undue burden" and what is their criteria for deeming it so?
We have enough youth, how about a fountain of SMART?
I agree. I just sent them (femawebmaster@dhs.gov) this quote, and some other nasty thoughts. Please crush them with email. This is BS.
My turnips listen for the soft cry of your love
So what are we going to do now? Rewrite the site for cross-browser compatibility? And have it crash miserably when it goes live? Better to keep those 87% of IE users, no?
I don't think anyone is really disagreeing with you (and I don't really see that you're disagreeing with others, either). Certainly if this is the site, then this is the site. Nobody wants them to take it down if they don't have an alternative in place (although, really, how long would it take to build an alternative that is compatible? a week? This is an online form that interfaces with an existing database, most web devs could build a low-tech HTML 3.0 version on a gray page background in 4 hours and leave the rest of the week for making sure the database spits out usable error messages when field validation fails)
The main point is we SHOULD complain and say that it isn't good enough, it isn't satisfactory, and it needs to be improved ASAP. It is unacceptable for an organization that specifically targets those with the least amount of choice in resources. Truthfully, I think it's unacceptable for ANY government organization, but this one in particular -- the evacuees don't get to pick and choose whether they have access to a phone, a Windows PC, a Mac, or a Linspire from Wal*Mart.
But we have to make noise about the issue so that it is fixed and people in power pay attention to it for the few moments they are forced to look at these normally invisible technical matters.
Recursive: Adj. See Recursive.
Most of the population evacuated. FEMA claim forms are very important to people who left, are safe, but are running out of hotel money, spending money, gas money.
So, you're in a strange city, and your Dell Celeron box is sitting under a foot of mud. Doesn't really matter, as it's two hundred miles away, behind police roadblocks and without power, phone or broadband.
You can't reach FEMA on the phone - they keep hanging up on you because they're swamped.
You're looking for a computer with an internet connection. Not just any computer. No macs, no 'NIX, no webtv, no cellphone browsers, no older PCs. Windows XP doesn't even assure you success. It has to have IE 6, which was a large download and was unavailable at the launch time of any Windows desktop operating system.
You're looking for a computer that has either been updated, or is fairly new and runs windows. Heck, I've never seen IE 6 in a library! Around here, they run IE 5 or Navigator!
This is going to be redundant, but the issue is this: People have lost their possessions. So likely don't have computers.
The phone service will only mail you forms to your home address, either being useless as they don't have mail service or an address to deliver to, or delaying their movement through the system for no reason.
The alternative is the web based form, however, in the shelters the only computers available are donated ones. Many of these do not have WindowsXP installed, and even if they did, the disaster workers are using putting in a standard Knoppix boot to greatly simplify administration and such. Not to mention avoid license issues.
So they cannot access the forms this way either, again needlessly delaying their progress. This is forcing many people to wait until the disaster is over, and FEMA gets around to placing kiosks where people can go to sign up.
Not only is this inefficient for FEMA, but it's stupid to make people in a shelter with a computer and internet access unable to fill out the forms NOW.
By requireing IE6 - FEMA is saying that people need to donate new computers or ones with paid up licenses (and how does one do that anyway? Lots of red tape) vs giving any functional hardware from the last 12 years or so and a non legally encumbered CD the aid workers can pop-in.
Opera, Proxomitron-Grypen,GPG 0x0A1C6EE3
or maybe 25. I'm just a kid so I don't know.
Can I ask a follow-up question? When, if ever, did it first occur to FEMA that people registering/applying via the Web might be a Good Thing? This week?
My turnips listen for the soft cry of your love
For the sake of the people who NEED to register, please do NOT Slashdot their site!!!
I live and run a PC Repair/Gaming shop in western New York (Chautauqua County, to be more specific). This area's main industry is grapes (as consumable food stuff, i.e. Welch's juice, jellies, etc...), ergo, there are a lot of farmer's here.
As of last year, most of the buyers began requiring the farmers to file their spray reports (records of fertilizers and pesticides) electronically. The means of filing differed between two major buyers -- one is via the web, the other via a spreadsheet and emailed. The web version - IE only (no mac's, no *nix, no alternative browsers). The other, an Excel spreadsheet that does not like opening in OOo.
(In all honesty, that has opened up a nice side service for my business...)
My point is not to detract from the tragedy that has befallen the victims of Katrina, only to point out that it is not uncommon for decision makers (who's very decisions effect a group's livelihood) to make unwise decisions.
I would be interested to see if there's an increase in sales of x86 laptops on ebay (or any used market) specifically for Mac users who need to file with FEMA. (Just as interesting would be to see if there's an increase in sales of Crossover Office).
<sarcasm> Maybe's there's grant money there for a study.</sarcasm>.
#SickNotWeak
My wife's an arabian horsewoman and shot up in her chair when she heard he was in charge of FEMA. He nearly broke the International Arabian Horse Association with lawsuits over equine comsmetic surgery, and soon after solicited personal defense funds as part of his work - an ethics violation. He left with the IAHA in a pretty good uproar in the middle of a three year contract. Either way, it was Charlie Foxtrot.
"Win treats sysadmins better than users. Mac treats users better than sysadmins. Linux treats everyone like sysadmins."
IE on the Mac is v.5.2.3 and developement basically stopped on it in 2001.
http://www.microsoft.com/mac/downloads.aspx#IE
The pursuit of absolute tolerance leads to the most rigorous and ludicrous intolerance. - REX MURPHY
It's called Section 508.
"You'll get nothing, and you'll like it!"
"1) How will he tell?"
;-)
;-)
:-(
If someone else tells him. If he happens to poke around in any way, and finds something that seems odd. If anyone remotely technical apart from you looks at the work, who doesn't:
i) Already agree the guy's a fuckwit
ii) Already know you lied to him and covered it up
iii) Agree it's ok to lie to your boss, and
iv) Have nothing to gain by showing the boss he's been lied to.
Once he gets suspicious you have to lie again to cover that. And at the very least he's going to be suspicious from now on, so you're less likely to get away with anything (possibly, more important) in the future.
Basically, once you lie to him once, you'd better be fucking sure he's never, ever going to find out about it. See my earlier point about "it'll never happen" scenarios
"2) If it works, why will he bother?"
Some people place a higher priority on "being obeyed" than on "things working".
They probably justify it to themselves that if they can't trust the employee to do whatever you want, no matter how insane, pointless or counter-productive, then you can't trust the employee, period.
The people are generally paranoid, uneducated in the relevant field, prone to micromanagement, fucking control freaks, and, overwhelmingly, bosses.
"3) You'll give yourself an ulcer if you keep bending over like that"
Well, no ulcers yet, but several bald patches on my head from tearing hair out, yes.
"4) If you let the insane define reality, then your reality will be insane"
Oh, do you work here? What are the odds?
"5) NEVER get into a position where you *need* the job. Build up, save a little, keep within your means and you can kiss a stupid job goodbye (note: if you get sacked because you didn't apply the required solution, but still got the result, you will get severance and dole)."
That's a lovely idea, but unfortunately, with the state of higher education in the UK, you're lucky to come out of your first degree without at least a £10,000 debt. A good first job in computing in my area is £16,000-£18,000. It can take a long while to dig yourself out of the hole, and you'd better quickly get used to getting fucked in the arse on the way...
Also, a note: I don't know where you're from, but here in the UK disobeying any reasonable request from your boss can easily end up as "Gross Misconduct". Getting sacked is also no guarantee you'll immediately get the dole, and the dole doesn't cover things like a car (essential to find a new job), university loan repayments, lack of a recent reference for your CV, etc.
Everything in moderation, including moderation itself
... to slashdot the FEMA website.
/. the site further I did not try to find out how much complexity the form has... but even a simple form that posts to a servlet to store in a temporary database table. Something....
That being said, I don't understand how it is that a simple form could not have been quickly created using generic technology just to capture the information required. A day or two? I call strawman to their excuse that it was an internal application that fails them; clearly it was a choice that fails them. A choice made under duress, admittedly. But duress due -again- to being *unprepared*.
I would think that the scenario is obvious since 9/11, so having had several years to prepare, this situation is most egregious. Unfathomable. Unconscionable.
Not wanting to
Look, FEMA fucked up and was sloppy. I have no idea how much was the politically appointee at the top, and how much is institutional stupidity that goes back years. Some blame belongs to Bush and his appointee, on the "buck stops here" logic, but let's be realistic on some of what happened.
The Levee maintenance program has been "underfunded" for THREE decades. Every federal program is "underfunded," because people ask for the world, get something, and can now claim to have been underfunded.
It is NOT clear that if that $250m was restored to the Federal budget that the levees would have held. We have NO IDEA. But when the levees and a system designed for Category 3 Hurricanes gets hit with a slow moving Category 4, better maintenance PROBABLY WOULD NOT have mattered.
Louisiana/New Orleans have a Levee Maintenance Board that is supposed to maintain and improve the Levees. They can issue municipal bonds to pay for it (those lovely options that cities and states have that pay a lower interest rate than treasuries, because the interest is federal tax free, so the government picks up a third of the interest tab in terms of your rate being lower by a third). However, in typical Louisiana corruption, it was filled with political friends with NO INTEREST in Levees, and focused on casinos.
Further, FEMA is EXTREMELY powerful, which makes civil libertarians nervous. Here you have an executive branch department that can single-handedly declare martial law, basically suspend the constitution, etc., powers normally only available to Congress in wartime. The CHECK on government abuse is that a city or state MUST request that help. Now, in an ideal world, FEMA would ONLY be called in REAL emergencies (but when you declare an emergency, FEMA picks up 80% of the tab, so anytime you can you declare an emergency), but federal programs only work when they expand, not only act 1-4 times a decade.
The evacuation of New Orleans was the city's responsibility and the city's PLAN called for using school buses to evacuate people... why didn't this happen?
Notifying FEMA of where shelter's are is a LOCAL responsibility, because FEMA doesn't come in until AFTER there is an emergency. The Superdome is a lovely batch of embarrassment. FEMA learned through official channels 2 or 3 days in that there were people there with no food and water. The news-media was floored "don't you have a television." But as sad as this is, it kinda makes sense... You have some level of lower down FEMA officials going over their checklist, and the Superdome isn't on it, so it is ignored. The higher ups are watching the Superdome footage on TV thinking "those poor people, at least help is on the way." But a disconnect there completely makes sense, and is extremely tragic. Whoever is on the ground sees that it isn't on their list and assumes that it is someone else's. Those above that see it isn't getting help assume that it is on someone's list... More people die... I place the bame 70%-30%, 70% on local officials who didn't notify FEMA properly, and 30% Fed's, because when you see the media talking about people there being without food or medicine for 2-3 days, you call down the pipe until you find out who is responsible for it. The media attention could have made it possible to save lives, if someone thought outside the box.
Decades of mismanagement and corruption in Louisiana caused a catastrophe... Bush is apparently a COMPLETELY incompetent leader who can't get anyone good in the government... This situation sucks. But I'm sick of the partisanship on this... Plenty of stupidity goes around.
BTW: more has been spent on Levee's by the Feds in the 5 years that Bush has been in office than the 8 years that Clinton was in office. That doesn't mean anything, but this "Bush wanted to levees to break so he cut funding" doesn't match reality. I'm pretty sure that the leader of the free world wasn't personally overseeing levee maintenance... unfortunately, neither was the levee maintenance board...
Alex
I Couldn't find the Bush quote. Can you provide a link?
Required reading for internet skeptics
The reason is that some people are building web access kiosks and they're using Linux. The reason for the kiosks are so people can communicate with others. While I agree it's not the first thing on the list of that which is important, communication is important and these kiosks may be the first thing available to many. Also by using the kiosk they may be able to start the FEMA paper work early and get something that can help them soon.
Neil Cherry - Linux Smart Homes For Dummies
"Currently to complete your application online you must be using Microsoft's Internet Explorer 6.0 or above. We are in the process of modifying the application so that it will be available to additional browsers."
Slashdot Effect in Action. Slashdot Activism is Cool
> New York Times criticizing the earlier form of his budget
So? Since when did the NYT have any control over the budget of the federal government?
The buck stops where the control rests; bringing in irrelevant parties---whether they're the NYT or Santa Claus---doesn't change who is responsible for cutting New Orleans levee funding.
I just tried with Firefox and got the nasty IE message. Then I set the browser ID to IE6/Win5.1 and tried with konqueror. After a few glitches probably attributable to a busy server, it worked!
This tells me that it probably should work with Firefox, but they have set it to give the error when it gets that browser string!
I know some of these guys like M$, but this is ridiculous!
I only care who suffers. I'm not in the delta basin... I'm in southern Ontario. I don't care who gets e. coli or not... I'm in southern Ontario. I don't care who sniffs raw sewage or tends to get the bends from having to get back up from 12 feet of water overlaying their house.
I'm from southern Ontario.
I do care about some things, though.
I care about people. This is something I've not read about much on here. Like it or not, Slashdot readers/posters seem to be a bit of a-lacking when it comes to communal feelings. Assholes, I'd call it.
I'd like to take the time to thank the poeple that are saving the animals. I'm not a Noah, but I respect the task that they're doing, and recognize the risk that's involved. Kudos to them, and most gracious thanks to their work.
I'd also like to send out thanks to everyone else who isn't in the disaster zone, who is helping out with arms-outstretched, to help those in need of some caring, some basic human comfort. If you're a person, we need you to survive, and I've been there, arms wide open. It's a generous thing, to have gone through such a struggle, and emerge intact. We need your stories, not for the root cause of survival, but for the sustaining that your stories give us. Tell us about it, and make our meagre lives better.
When the going gets weird, the weird turn pro. ~~ Hunter S. Thompson