Slashdot Mirror
Sid Meier Responds
What is your opinion on open source clones such as FreeCiv? FreeLoaders, or flatterers? :)
Response:
It's tough to make a blanket statement about all open source clones, but since developers and publishers rely very heavily on
intellectual property rights, any infringement or dilution of those rights can be detrimental to companies, games, and consumers. In
the case of Civilization, Take Two Interactive now owns all rights to the game series and fortunately, the franchise is still a mainstay
at Firaxis...so we feel pretty protective of the IP.
2. By Surt (22457):
Keeping PC gaming alive:
What factors do you think help keep PC gaming alive when competing with consoles, and do you foresee that PC gaming will continue to
survive when confronted with the next generation of consoles? From the reverse perspective, what prevents consoles from finally killing
off PC gaming?
Response:
Believe it or not, I think the biggest thing PCs have going for them in the console war is the mouse/keyboard interface. So many game
types are nearly unplayable without this simple mechanism. Real-time strategies, first-person shooters, point and click adventures, are
all best suited to a mouse and keyboard. Another important factor is the innate upgradeability of PCs vs. consoles. The fact that you
can still have a viable machine two years after it has been on the market, by simply adding RAM or a new video card is priceless. PCs
also benefit from fairly cost effective high-resolution monitors. Finally, you can't ignore how easy it is to connect PCs to the
internet (another mouse/keyboard must by the way). Being able to quickly, easily, and cheaply connect is a major plus, as it allows all
sorts of flexibility - from finding opponents to downloading patches and content to browsing forums and FAQs.
On the reverse side, consoles offer many positives as well. They represent a known quantity so it is easy to take advantage of everything they have to offer without worrying about the least common denominator. They are inexpensive to buy and easy to operate. They work well with your home theater and your living room without requiring a lot of technical know-how. Even with all of that, they will never "kill-off" computers because they aren't competing for the same market in the same fashion. There will always be room for both and that's good for me.
3. By codergeek42 (792304):
I think the big question on a lot of our minds is: Why did you start doing game design and programming in the first place?
Response:
I caught the computer bug in college, but never imagined that one day I would have a career making games for the computer. As a kid I
really enjoyed playing board games and card games, and was interested in reading books about history, pirates, airplanes...all of which
have been the topics in the games I've created. Bill Stealey and I started Microprose on a dare really...we were at a business conference
together and were playing a flight-sim arcade game. Bill was really impressed that I kept winning and I told him that I could tell what
the AI was going to do each time, so it was easy to win...and I said that I could make a better game in two weeks. Bill challenged me to
do just that and so began our game development company.
4. By Avacar (911548):
Balance:
When building any strategy game, where do you start when you attempt to balance the game? Do you find that you personally need to
playtest and try new concepts to balance games, or do the inherent mechanisms of your games lead towards making balance easier for you
to achieve?
Response:
My whole approach to making games revolves around first creating a solid prototype and then playing and improving the game over the
course of the 2-3 year development cycle...until we think it's ready for prime time. My experience in this area helps me to know what to
do and where to start. I definitely spend a lot of time playing the game before I let anyone else look at it. I also have quite a code
base that I've been using for a long time, so I know how certain systems will work before I even throw them in. Once the basics are in
and I'm comfortable letting other people see it, I like to watch brand new players play it first. It's much harder to make a game
balanced for newbies than for hard core gamers. I like to see where they have trouble and I try to eliminate things that are too
troublesome or difficult to grasp... it's really important that players feel rewarded at all times, so this step is critical for that
reason. Of course, once I have a good grasp on the new player experience, it's time to throw the game to the seasoned testers. For
them, I just keep ramping up difficulty by factors of 2 until they beg for mercy - it seems to take longer than it used to for that to
happen. :)
5. By WhiteBandit (185659):
Future Directions in Gaming:
I admire many of the great game designers who have pushed the boundaries in gaming (yourself, Will Wright and Peter Molyneux to name a
few). However, I can't help but feel that many of today's genres are stale and a lot of new games are mostly repeating past formulas as
we see many sequels or derivatives of previous games being released. This appears to be a trend that will continue. Where do you think
the future of gaming is headed, and how hard is it to introduce radical new ideas into the industry?
Response:
The cost of making games has gone through the roof, so understandably, publishers want to invest in games that are sure to sell...and
sequels for successful franchises are safe bets. It's very difficult to convince publishers to invest millions of dollars in a new game
idea...it's too risky. And, fans certainly seem to want more of what they love...Civilization, AoE, Sims...we keep making those games because
people keep asking for more.
The game industry will continue to grow and become a bigger part of main stream entertainment...and eventually take over the world J The constant advances in gaming systems will drive new ideas. I think we're just at the tip of the iceberg in gaming...there's so much more to come.
6. By Amoeba (55277):
Playability vs Graphics:
In any Slashdot gaming discussion, invariably the debate between playability vs. graphics comes up. "This game is pretty but the game
sucks!" vs. "Nethack is all I need man." The games you've had a hand in seem to emphasize intricate strategy, with graphics taking a
backseat for the most part. Some of the most successful games in the past have been very simple on the surface but can have amazing
depth, all without gee-whiz factor of purty lights and bleeding-edge graphics engines. How much focus do you place on the graphical
aspects of gaming, and do you think there is a way to achieve a balance without sacrifices on either end? How do you tackle that
problem? When I got started, there was only so much you could do with graphics so we had to leave a lot up to the player's imagination.
That was the beauty of those old games; the player filled in the gaps for you. If you put a green blob on the screen and called it a
dragon, it had the tendency of becoming a dragon so long as you were engaging the player's mind. Times change, though, and technology
marches on. People expect a lot more out of a computer or video game these days and we have to adjust. I still like to engage the
player's imagination, but they don't have to fill in so many gaps themselves.
Response:
This is very cool because I don't have to use so many info screens to show players what they need to know - which is a dream come true
for me. When we were remaking Pirates, it was very important to us that players be able to see the towns, discern their nationality,
and see how large and wealthy they were all by looking at the screen. In Civ IV, the guys have taken that concept even farther and you
can see at a glance everything you really need to know about a city.
On the other hand, it seems there are many times when graphics get the better of good judgment. I must say that I am a big fan of racing games like Gran Turismo, but sometimes it seems they are more focused on the replay than the race, which feels a little backwards to me. In fact, lately I've been let down by a bunch of racing games that looked amazing but were tragically flawed in some way. So, I'll stick with Gran Turismo 3.
One final note on this... Recently, I've been working on several prototypes and was surprised to find that I reached a point fairly early on when I just couldn't find any more fun in the concept - until I had some professionally created art. In the past, I was content to create my own art and never had any trouble envisioning gameplay, so this represents a fundamental change for me.
7. By truthsearch (249536):
AI:
I've been a huge fan of Civilization since it first came out. I've always thought the AI of the computer player is relatively good,
especially how each has certain characteristics which differentiate them. But AI in strategy games doesn't seemed to have advanced
drastically in the last 15 years. What do you imagine the next big advance in game AI will be? When will games really learn how you
play? Will we not be able to tell the difference between a human and computer competitor? I probably shouldn't be telling you this, but
in my opinion, the goal of AI is not necessarily to simulate a human response. The goal is to generate interest for the player by
providing the illusion of a human-like response - or not at all human-like, if that's what it takes to engage the player. I'm not
entirely sure that complex games like Civ could ever have true human responses because there is so much complexity that the AI would
bring almost any machine to its knees.
Response:
Consider this: we have only recently been able to truly simulate intelligence that can compete with a human in chess. Chess is
obviously a complex intellectual game, but it is ultimately fairly easy to define because there are only 64 squares and 6 types of
movement. Plus, the rules of engagement are simple - attack and win. Add to that the huge amount of known strategy that has been
collected and studied throughout the years and it is even more definable. In a game like Civ, we have over 80 units, all with
different movement rates, strengths, special abilities, experience levels, etc. We also have to decide where to place cities, what to
build, who to be nice to and who to make war with. We also have to decide what to research, what religion to spread, what Civics to
adopt, etc. All in all, I don't expect to see anything close to true human intelligence any time soon, as long as games continue to get
more complex.
9. By Chickenofbristol55 (884806):
Question:
Since the first Civilization game in 1991, how do you think the gaming industry has changed? And, is the change for the better or for
the worse?
Response:
Obviously the gaming industry has grown exponentially since 1991. The cost of entry is much higher than it was when I started. The days
of guys building a game in their garage and then selling it to a publisher are behind us, I'm afraid. To make a game today it takes more
money, time, people, technology...which is why there are fewer independent developers and the big publishing houses run the show. Frankly,
I liked it better in the old days, when things were less complicated (I'm showing my age here). We were breaking new ground, and it was
really fun. Not to say that it's not fun now...I still love making games and have a bunch of new ideas for games I'd like to create.
The stakes are much higher now, but the quality of many of the games produced today is pretty impressive. The changes in the industry have definitely benefited the consumers - they have an array of game systems and games to choose from...and the competitive environment drives developers to strive to out-do each other...which pushes game design forward.
All things considered...there's nothing else I'd rather do for a living than make games. It's the best job in the world.
10. By TuringTest (533084):
What kind of game do you enjoy?:
Good games (and specially videogames) entail a great deal of simulation of reality; They are bits of everyday life simplified for casual
enjoyment. What do you feel is more important for a game to be great and/or successful: that the mechanics create an environment with
interesting and complex possibilities, or that they are fun and easy to grasp? Is balance required between these two design forces? And
which of the two do you enjoy most in your own experiences as game player?
Response:
I like to play all kinds of games...on a variety of systems. My son and I play games on the PC, PS2, Xbox, GameCube...and they range from
Warcraft, to Halo to Grand Turismo...to Civilization. :)
I definitely try to create, and most enjoy playing, games that strike a balance between depth/complexity and ease of use. My goal when making a game is to find the right mix of story and mechanics that will deliver many hours of fun to players. We try to put the player in a situation where they can be something great - King, Pirate Captain, Tycoon, Entrepreneur - and create an interesting world where they can have an adventure, build an empire, conquer the world etc. The game can be as deep as a player wants it to be. In Civ for example, a game can last from 1 hour to 40 hours, depending on what the player wants. I've watched kids play Civ on a very surface level and have a great time with it...and I've seen hard core gamers go as deeply into the game as possible...where things become pretty complex...and those folks have a fun experience too. We've tried to make Civ IV easy for anyone to pick up and play...and then created layers and layers of depth and complexity just waiting to be explored by those who dare to venture there. But...the interface remains familiar and easy-to-use throughout....and the visuals add a whole new dimension to the experience. Sorry for the shameless plug...but it's our baby. :)
Who sent the email to daddypants telling Zonk that it was "emminent" not "imminent?" I was so looking forward to all the jokes...
It's tough to make a blanket statement about all open source clones, but since developers and publishers rely very heavily on intellectual property rights, any infringement or dilution of those rights can be detrimental to companies, games, and consumers. In the case of Civilization, Take Two Interactive now owns all rights to the game series and fortunately, the franchise is still a mainstay at Firaxis...so we feel pretty protective of the IP.
Apparently, Take Two also owns all rights to the Sid Meier's Personal Opinion franchise.
Still, the rest of the interview was very interesting.
are best suited to mouse and keyboard control? I must be missing something here. Of course, my experience with "first-person shooter" games has been nil since "Duck Hunt" on the original NES. But still... does he honestly believe a mouse and keyboard are the best way to experience such games? Strikes me as odd.
Eloi are stupid, throw morlocks at them!
The most popular questions from the slashdot comments don't get picked.
For the second game developer interview in a row +5 modded questions about linux ports of the games have been posted and ignored.
Come one, slashdot. Just ask the questions we've modded up.
"If they have both, tell them we use Linux. And if they have that, tell them the computers are down." -Dave Chapelle
I fully agree. Thanks, Sid, for the thoughtful, candid responses. Like many others here, I played the original Civ (yes, 320x240 and all--boy was the Windows version eye-popping!), and I still play it occasionally today.
This certainly is a marked contrast to the Interview with the Blizzard "developers", where all we got back was a load of marketing bull.
Help find a cure for cancer. Join the [H]orde
I know I'm ready to dive into those lucious layers of depth that Meier is tantalizing us poor souls with.
Other than that, I do appreciate his plugs for mouse/keyboard and PC gaming in general. Come on developers, you can't ever give those damn controllers(or consoles) the versatility of a PC.
MacroHard - Boning you in a big way! (TM)
What does "intellectual property" have to do with clones, unless they are using assets lifted or derivatived from the original work? You can't own ideas and if you could, there would be no games industry.
I really hope he figured out a way to make Civ4 playable after a hundred or so turns. I've been playing Civ3 on a pentium M lately and it's still way too slow when the game gets into the modern age.
Religion for nerds. Stuff that really matters
Used to play Civ but latelly it has been letting me down, I don't know maybe I am graphics junky but I want more.
The fact that you can still have a viable machine two years after it has been on the market, by simply adding RAM or a new video card is priceless.
Yea, but the thing is that these days you can buy a new console for LESS than a decent video card...
TODO: Something witty here...
"I also have quite a code base that I've been using for a long time, so I know how certain systems will work before I even throw them in."
My first thought on this was, Wow, wouldn't it be great to Open Source this code base. My second thought was, isn't this a symptom of a larger problem? We want code to be modular and reusable so complex games can be developed quickly, yet we complain that games aren't original enough because people are reusing code. Seems like a fundamental problem to me.
Keeping PC gaming alive:
What factors do you think help keep PC gaming alive when competing with consoles, and do you foresee that PC gaming will continue to survive when confronted with the next generation of consoles? From the reverse perspective, what prevents consoles from finally killing off PC gaming?
I missed this question when the original article asking for questions was posted. But this is a silly waste. Sid's answer is spot on, and I wish I knocked this down a knotch with a mod point.
Lumping an entire market together and insisting they are direct competitors for the exact same dollar is stupid. Civ4 cannot be played well with a PS2 controller, and Grand Turismo plays crappy on a keyboard. You can find a way to make it work, but no one is going to spend the time to try to code it. It's a waste. The market will show you that there is room for both, and while there are lots of crossovers, you will also see that there are lots of areas where there is absolutely no crossover, simply because of interface issues.
Sid makes some other great points about graphics and upgrades you can do to a PC. This goes into the fact that a $100-$300 console can run a fast paced racing game with better performance than a $1500 computer. PC games are notorious for being slow and skipping frames. Some console games do this, but that's considered a bug in the console game and it doesn't do so well if it performs badly. However, in the PC world if a game has godly system requirements for any reason, the blame is more often put on the PC and not the person who coded it to require too much power. Sometimes that's deserving but having to spend hours just to fine tune your system to play Quake or Doom is nuts.
They are all gaming companies, but different games for different platforms will always be here, and I hope it gets even more diverse, because we need the diversity.
"All great wisdom is contained in .signature files"
Frankly, I was surprised at your nomination. Many of us would like to know: With your background as a game designer, what in particular do you feel makes you qualified to sit on the Supreme Court?
"He's telling the developers of those clones to be careful about copying or risk being sued."
Sue who for what? 100 developers and contributors for a portion of all the profits they've earned?
Surely, after all the massive hits he's made and the piles of money he sleeps on, he can afford to be a little gracious towards an open source game project.
He who lights his taper at mine, receives light without darkening me.
I think the mouse and keyboard define a paradigm of control that has been very successfull - but by no means perfect. The mouse is a better aiming mechanism than, for example, a joystick, but still not better than an actual pointing mechanism like a gun.
There has to exist some compromise between a tool built for the job and a tool built for all jobs - at last as long as we're defining our tools in a physical world. While a gun like object would probably be a better pointing mechanism for Quake 4, it's likely not the best pointing mechanism for Black and White 2.
As the price of technologies like gyroscopic pointing devices and virtual keyboards come into the range of the average user, we may see a change in game controllers. In a battle where the controller preferance is no longer the defining characteristic seperating PC gaming from a living room set top box, the increased expense and varied specifications of the PC will likely prove a fatal blow to the platform.
Ignoring my keyboard and mouse - I'd much rather be doing my gaming on a 40+ inch HD Tv with a nice Dolby 5.1-7.1 surround system than at my PC. With comparable prices between those two systems, Joe Sixpack isn't going to buy PC games if the interface suddenly doesn't matter.
Killfile(TGK)
No trees were killed in the creation of this post. However, many electrons were inconvenienced.
When's Civ IV being released?
Bloggy Goodness
I regret my question wasn't picked but I'm really curious why the Dinosaurs project got abandoned. From the initial description it sounded like a terrific idea. Was the technology immature, was it too complex for an average gamer? I guess we'll never know the complete story behind that story.
Your pizza just the way you ought to have it.
Every time I see your username in the comment section it's next to a modded-up post "thanking" whatever the article is about.
A Firefox article is posted, and within 15 minutes there's you with a "Thanks, Firefox developers!" comment.
Google announces a new feature of their Print service and immediately it's "Thanks Google!!" in a comment of yours that shoots straight up to 4 or 5.
I guess what I'm saying is... shut up.
If you "get" pointers add me as a friend (116)!
Wow, he responded.....unlike, some other developer team I know....(cough, cough, Blizzard, cough, cough)......
Thanks a lot Sid! Very insightful.
I can't believe he answered my question. But seriously, thanks again Sid, you have changed the way we play video games forever. Surely without you, someone else equally as brilliant would have come along. But in the end, what counts is that you were there, and YOU siezed the moment. Thanks.
public class null extends java applet { System.out.print ("Tabula Rasa"); }
Hell yes.
Those were great questions. Noticed how he answered them? Look closely, if you will, at the great examples and insight he shares?
Hey, Blizzard! Sit up straight in your chair and pay attention. Stop staring out the window.
Given his comments on input devices on PCs being so far ahead of those on consoles, I wonder what Sid Meier thinks of the Nintendo Revolution controller. It seems to close some gaps while widening others. Then it also does things the PC hasn't yet dreamed of. IMO, it will be perfect for playing strategy games.
The global economy is a great thing until you feel it locally.
As a big fan of Civ1&2 and Alpha Centauri, I find Sid's answers to be very disappointing.
The silliest one is the answer to Question 7.
Sid makes the following argument : Chess, which has simple rules, is the current limit of what computer AI can do as well as a human. So Civilization 4, which has much more complex rules, is too difficult to allow computer AI to compete with humans.
This argument is false : for instance, look at the traditional Asian "Go" game. It has very simple rules, much simpler than Chess. If Sid's argument made sense, computer should be able to play Go very well. But the reality is that as of today, Computers cannot compete with a skilled human. Thus : there is no direct relationship between the complexity of the rules, and the difficulty to design a strong AI.
Not to mention Sid's answer to the question on Free clones... he has no interest in software freedom.
War doesn't prove who's right, just who's left.
And all of that legitimately tax deductible. Nevermind how much fun the guy has at work, that's the really cool part. Government subsidized computers, console, and games. I'm in the wrong industry.*
Cheers
-b
* (well, I do get to deduct pr0n, so I guess it's not all that bad)
If I wanted a sig I would have filled in that stupid box.
Violence in current videogames? A South Carolina man was able to foil an attempted carjacking using methods learned from Grand Theft Auto. I think both sides of the "violent games" story need to be told!
Of course not. Please, feel free to check my posting history:
http://slashdot.org/~CyricZ
That said, when somebody does something worthy of appreciation, I will let them know that. Common courtesy, you know.
Cheerios, my friend!
Cyric Zndovzny at your service.
Only spare time? Is homework spare time?
Can I Have My Freshamn YEAR OF COLLEGE BACK??!?!??!?!??!111oneoneone!!
Number of hours I've spent on Civ, Sid needs to be putting at least an hour a month here for a few years. Factor in all the other /. readers, and Sid Meier games, that number should ramp up to about 8 hours/week, for the next coupla years. Get comfy Sid, it's payback time.
bkd
I actually have a lot of sympathy for programmers wanting to make money. That's a perfectly valid purpose for programming. I have substantially less sympathy for companies that peddle faulty goods - knowingly - for the purpose of making money from goods that really don't yet exist, rather than waiting until they can make that money fairly and honestly.
Sid Meier deserves sympathy and support for reputable conduct that deserves payment in kind. Take2 deserves a vacation in Siberia.
It's a small world and it smells funny; I'd buy another if it wasn't for the money; Take back what I paid (SoM)
Ok, just so all of you know that I have cred, I played Civ I on the Amiga...
I have to ask, how revolutionary or evolutionary is this latest incarnation of the game going to be? The original was a classic, but the fundamental gameplay, in my opinion hasn't really changed much over the life of the series. Do we really need a Civ IV? [/provocative]
Ceci n'est pas une sig.
Given the limited number of possible moves in any given Chess position, and the amount of knowledge of the game amassed over the years, it becomes a relatively simple game for computers to play.
Conversely (and any strong Go player can flame me for this) Go hasn't been nearly as well analysed as Chess, and proportionally doesn't have that same depth for computers to fall back on.
Expand that to Civ, with Sid's descriptions of units, city placement (almost anywhere on solid ground), resources, multiple win/lose scenarios, diplomacy, a map larger than a Go board, etc., and you've got a branching complexity far in excess of either Chess or Go. AI in games just isn't about to catch up to the necessary requirements.
And your comment on him having no interest in software freedom; I pose these questions back to you: Do you just want free software made by professionals? Would it even exist if he never got paid to do it in the first place? And doesn't he have a right to financially benefit from all the effort put into the creation of the software?
I'm all for free software and open source, but for the right reasons.
A minor note on my question that Sid answered:
:)
My question ends at "How do you tackle that problem?" and Sid's response begins from that point forward and not where the current Response: is listed.
All that aside, the answer is not quite what I expected and was pleasantly surprised tha in some cases Sid needs the visuals in order to proceed. That method/criteria for balance never crossed my mind
-Amoeba
Do not taunt Happy-Fun Ball
I'm a history guy, and I just love the original game, but Civ III IS too slow, Civ II is too uneven, and Civ I is just ancient now.
For me, Alpha was the best. Everybody who tried it loved it. It was fast enough for my non-strategy friends and deep enough for me. And I think the well-defined factions were terrific, like a starcraft/civ mashup. I had great fun with the expansion set (which makes more sense than these 'multiplayer' civ games). It's takes the gold medal.
I hope they update AC for Windows Vista or do a sequel. I'm dyin' here.
The problem most folks experience is getting used to pointing your 'head' with the mouse and walking with your keys. Once you get that down there is no going back.
Back in the joyful days of Jedi Knight 2 I picked up the habit of reversed mouse axis and putting +forward movement on mouse2. To this day, my friends think I'm insane, but I like not having to become a stationary target in order to inventively taunt my opponents, or perform other actions which require near-exclusive keyboard use for a moment. An additional factor is that most hardware/interfaces/games only accept so many simultaneous keyboard input channels, so offloading the most-used ones (movement and firing) to alternate mouse input makes a ridiculous amount of sense-- being able to effectively hit one more concurrent button than your opponents is an intangible but highly useful advantage.
It's so satisfying when some fool starts typing back and stops moving till someone nails them, but there really is no going back-- reversed-mouse and mouse2 = forward for life. My friends hop on when I'm grabbing something out of the kitchen, and they're effectively helpless and bitch about my control scheme.
Of course, I laugh at them too.
Unfortunately, some games have issues with arcane controls-- the current bad example would be Battlefield 2, which while otherwise excellent, suffers from where the developers insisted on putting in the downright clunkiest UI I've ever seen-- key mappings for in-game actions are cross-linked to the key mappings for parts of the goddamn UI, which is downright slow, bad and wrong. I bring up the map window, and I have to remember which keyboard key I have bound to whatever mouse2 defaults to in order to access the functions that mouse2 would normally hit, simply horrible. Awesome game though.
Even worse, the new BF2 patch made it so forward movement captures lots of the HUD input modes, so I have to stop moving like all of the other normal-control-scheme retards do in order to spot enemies or use the HUD-up radio menus, so it comes down to a choice between moving and shooting at the hostile armor I just spotted *or* lighting his position up on the HUD for my buddies so everyone knows to take cover and whip out the explosives. Being able to do both was much nicer, and I will thank them kindly if they stop crippling my interface further just 'cause none of their QA people use a rational control scheme.
Anyway, the bottom line is that offloading forward movement onto mouse2 just makes sense, and game developers need to pick up on that with default settings and working interfaces that don't leave mousemovers as crippled as everyone else.
"We have to go forth and crush every world view that doesn't believe in tolerance and free speech." - David Brin
IANAL, but I did have to pass the stupid law exam to be licensed as a professional engineer in Ontario. One thing I remember is that, under Canadian law, you cannot sue unless damages are incurred. This makes sense, in that a case where no damages are alleged would be a waste of the court's time.
However, in IP cases, it seems like the damages can include loss of potential sales, or reduction of the value of a brand.
As one consequence, I have heard other people argue that the GPL might not withstand a legal challenge, because violating it cannot incur monetary damages. Again, IANAL, but I'm sure some clever lawyer could come up with a counter-argument.
Toronto-area transit rider? Rate your ride.
To each her own, but the cutesy videos of the council got very old very quickly. "Cute" isn't the goal at all in your typical world domination game, is it? Spaceward Ho, maybe...
For me, any good simulation game is one where after you understand the core concept well enough, you can, with a little luck and good planning, have a decent chance of winning most scenarios hands down vs the computer AI...
Perhaps you're unfamiliar with difficulty settings? The lowest setting in any Civ game would give you what you want.
For my money I could do without essentially all of the graphic engine changes from II to III. The addition of "culture" and the way the previous games' rules (about military units being "away from home," about moving through "enemy" territory) were worked into it made for a huge, huge improvement. That was an elegant way to fold in some previously awkward and conspicuously unrealistic mechanics.
In no game do I care a whit for repetitively "cute" video sequences that give me no useful information. Those things were painful after the first time through, and in a Civ game replay value is every-, every-, everything.
"Fundamentalism" isn't about divine morality. It's about human authority.
The game will be released on the 25th having entered final CD production on the 19th.
Source
-- Political fascism requires a Fuhrer.
This is maybe-aside, maybe-not, but what does the law have to say about "clones"? As long as the clones don't directly copy any code or graphics, the user interface has typically not been subject to copyright law (I thought). For example, I thought Apple sued Microsoft over the appearance of Windows, and Lotus sued Borland over a menu system that emulated that in the 1-2-3 spreadsheet. I thought both cases generally decided that the program, but not the interface, was protected.
Wouldn't that suggest that it's legally not a problem to make a clone of a game (until, of course, software patents enter the picture)? Or, unless the "civ" part of "freeciv" is considered as trademark infringement?
I wonder if Sid will ever make another Covert Action? I really loved that game.
No, that has a very definite price. Consoles are still viable machines two years (and longer) after purchase without any upgrades. They generally have much better compatibility with new games than old computers do.
... and then they built the supercollider.
Man, I totally agree with you on everything. mouse2=forward good, BF2 interface bad. I could have posted the exact same speech!
Interesting. If the mouse and keyboard interface is all he really feels seperates the PC and console markets, what does this mean in terms of the Revolution? The Nintendo Revolution has an interface that will allow for PC style games to be played on a console.
F*kn canadians. :P
Sid Meier: "The days of guys building a game in their garage and then selling it to a publisher are behind us, I'm afraid."
Guess somebody forgot to tell Marcos Healy.
http://www.ragdollkungfu.com/
And I think that's the crux of why people play online games with a mouse. You know exactly where you're aiming and have very fine control over it. Contrast it over a light gun which requires gross motor movements, sighting, and usually no firm idea of where exactly you're pointed at. I remember playing Operation Wolf on the Nintendo was virtually impossible with the light gun versus the control pad. And the various House of the Dead games are definitely easier with the mouse than with the light gun. ^_^ Although I still prefer Typing of the Dead... "Ever kill a zombie with your bare hands?"
In the end, a lot of it comes down to computer games being wish fulfillment. You don't want to be limitted by your crappy physical skills, so you use devices that simplify things. Although I highly enjoy playing shooting games in the arcade (particularly the Police 911 series... got to love the full control over dodging), using a mouse is still far easier. And really, what's more important? Being 133t and playing with a light gun for aiming in Quake? Or keeping from getting pasted by an utter n00b who's using his mouse to aim? (and yes, leetspeak used for dramatic emphasis)
This sig has absolutely no significance and serves only to take up screen space and waste the time of the reader.
You too, eh?
I play with an old logitech mouse that has a thumb button at the base of the left side (not near the top, like the new ones... yuck!), and I map my forward movement to that. It's right under where my thumb naturally rests while holding the mouse, so it's nearly perfect for movement.
The reversed axis thing is anathema to me, though. It's for flight sims only, and only with a proper joystick. Otherwise, it makes me dizzy. My college roommate played used reversed axes. He first gamed on flight sims, and described the reversed axis something like this: "Visualize the mouse as the top of your character's head. Grab it and move it forward, he looks down. Pull back, he looks up." With a control scheme like that, I always figured he had some anger issues.
Code monkey?????!!! I dissect code monkeys!
If you look at the first article, there were at least 4 questions about moddability which a +5 from readers. This is by far the most interesting announcement about Civ4. Why are there no questions about it? And why did he get asked such stupid and platitudes? This was not an interview by nerds and produced appropriately lame answers.
Too bad there are only NINE questions there... I guess when your sid you can only waste so much time.
I'm British. Nevertheless, many Canadians have learned well from our example. They are indeed amongst us as the most polite people around.
Cyric Zndovzny at your service.
What are these? Game clones? Clones of what? Google wasn't bringing anything up in its top results.
One thing I've found strange is that on a PC, I can't stand reverse y-axis. On the console however, it's nearly essential to me. It's probably from my days of playing Duke Nukem 64 ( yes, 64, as in the version released for the Nintendo 64 ).
God is dead -- Nietzsche
Nietzsche is dead -- God
Zombie Nietzsche lives! -- Zombie Nietzsche
Curious how the little quote thing at the bottom of the page says today: "Without adventure, Civilization is in full decay." -- Alfred North Whitehead
this is a great example of how peoples notion of *what culture is* is being hugely diluted by the massive corporate push for expanded intellectual property rights.
back in the Good Old Days, kids used to be able to draw inspiration from comic books, movies, games, art, books, and anything else to make their own. i'd wager that we've all done it at one point or another, because its not only a way of learning, its a way of consuming, interpreting, and reproducing culture. sure a lot of it was straight out copying. but no one mistook the original for the interpretation.
Now, the open-source movement is trying to make its own Civ tribute. There's no mistaking that their efforts are a pale imitation of the original, an interpretation of something that inspired them. Yet here we go with the corporatist bravado -- from an artist like Sid Meyer fer gawd sakes! Does Take Two really feel threatened by the equivalent of a childs interpretation? should they?
obviously, i'm not talking about propogating Madonnas latest MP3 across the net anymore than i'm saying people should indiscriminantly copy the retail version of Civ4. i'm talking about the right to take that MP3, rip sections from it, mix it in your own interpretation, and share it with the world. i'm talking about drawing inspiration from a great game, taking what you like from it, complimenting the author with your own efforts, and sharing that with who ever cares. that should be the right we all enjoy for all time, not the right for some abstract entity to keep making money off us long after death. or is that why you makes games Sid?
i don't think so. artists, programmers, designers, and all the other creative producers of intellectual property should remember what the production and reproduction of culture means: that their work will live beyond them and be enjjoyed by as many people as possible. nuts to Take Two and Sid Meyer for forgetting that people -- not dollars -- is what their efforts are all about.
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I think that it was implied to stop being a karma whore and post those as AC. That way, the folks get props and you don't get bashed for being a shameless karma whore.
/.
On a personal note, I could care less whether you stop or not, seeing as I've got plenty karma to burn and all that.
Not a flame, not a troll, just trying to interpret for the unwashed masses of
Cheers. ^^v
I have no regrets, this is the only path.
My whole life has been "UNLIMITED BLADE WORKS"
Violence in current videogames? A South Carolina man was able to foil an attempted carjacking using methods learned from Grand Theft Auto. I think both sides of the "violent games" story need to be told!
I haven't played a GTA where you can violently open a car door or throw a hot beverage in someone's face. What I've learned from GTA about carjacker escape is to either get out of the car and shoot the carjacker with your UZI, or simply drive away.
You need the Hot Coffee mod.
Denham's Dentrifice, Denham's Dentrifice, Denham's Dandy Dental Dentrifice, Denham's Dentrifice Dentrifice Dentrifice.
The mouse+keyboard camp has two specific arguments, both about the resolution of control:
1) More buttons are accessible on a keyboard, therefore more control.
2) A thumbstick lacks the control of a mouse, their range is directly correlated with their resolution.
The pro-controller camp responds with:
"Well, everything's subjective."
Pretty weak. Let mouse/keyboard combos compete with console controllers online, then we'll see how subjective it is. It's a tool designed for a function. Its effectiveness can be measured.
Sid Meier reads the thread and thinks "Wow, these are the most hardcore Civ players... What have I done..."
Build a tool even an idiot can use and only an idiot will want to use it. -S.O.B.
"Civ Dissapoints Met"
That a headline?
Which one? Piazza? fuck him!
Go Sox!
Why is he getting interesting mods for telling someone else to shutup? Sounds like flaimbait to me
Oh my god, you fucking KARMA WHORE. If I had mod points, I'd mod you down.
In this debate, "PC gamers are quick to point out all the benefits of their sytem whilst the console gamers really don't care."
I completely agree.
I find it really odd that people have been bitching about some of Sid's responses about clones of his games. The big argument I have seen here is the same old OSS stuff we hear trying to rationalize moral stances. I wonder how many people here read the interview with an open mind. Sid just gave all OSS gamers and would-be developers the idea of a lifetime and I haven't seen anyone actually mention it yet because they're all too busy complaining about the clone comment.
Sid mentioned in the interview:
It's very difficult to convince publishers to invest millions of dollars in a new game idea...it's too risky.
This is the golden apple here! To all OSS game developers, if you want to contribute to the open source communities AND to the game industry in a meaningful way, develop games based on new game ideas. Be radical. Be innovative. Be crazy. You are in a position to beta test ideas that the game industry can never possibly afford to put themselves in. If you are an OSS game developer, instead of trying to make clones of games and risk legal action, why not take the road less traveled and develop new games based on ideas we have never seen before. Try contacting people like Sid and volunteering to develop these new game ideas. The gaming companies can certainly use an infusion of new genres and ideas and OSS could be the best test-bed for these ideas. For all who take the stance that the whole world should be OSS, this is also the way to do that. Develop your new game ideas as OSS games and be the first, the original. One of the reasons clones like FreeCiv are seen as half-assed (as I saw someone mention earlier) is because it isn't the first. If it were the first, it might be looked at as a better game or at least not half-assed. The original is almost always more likeable than the clones.
I'm normally not the type of guy that tries to find the good in everything, but it seems a lot of the OSS people are always trying to find the bad in everything. Instead of trying to find ways of accusing people of being "the man" and trying to stomp you for participating in OSS, take a look at the whole picture and you just might find some good stuff in there like this.
And, on a subject slightly differnt than the subject of this post indicates: Sid, thank you very much for your responses. I enjoyed reading the interview and am extremely envious of you. Back on my C64, I always dreamed of putting out the next big game but never had the balls to see it through. And you're right. It is very difficult to get into the gaming business today. I wish it weren't so because I would love to join the ranks of game developers from my garage/basement.
This is really a disavantage. A console is always viable (for running its games) infinite years after has been on the market without adding nothing.
Please don't go...the drones need you...the look up to you...
a quiting screen on AC
nearly brought me to tears.
-------------------------------END--COMMUNICATION
Just finished going over your posting history... I'm somewhat surprised you actually use it in your defense. If I had a posting history like that, I'd actually go to great lengths not to point it out to people. :p
I mean, like what's your problem with that Barry dude anyway? He criticizes you in one slashdot thread, and you immediately start singling him out and criticizing about every post he makes just to get even. Then when he points out you're trolling, suddenly he's the one attacking you "ad hominem" and you start going all "19th century phylosopher" on him about how he's not "engaging in a rational discourse", completely disregarding the fact that you were neither...
You do have some insightful posts in there too, I grant you that... Maybe instead of spending your energy on getting even and harassing those who dare criticize you, even if it's only once, you might employ that energy towards cramming out more informative and insightful posts. Stop taking things personal man, this is slashdot. Bask in the warm comforting knowledge that 90% of the people here are complete and utter morons, and just ignore them. That's what I do mostly anyway. *grin*
Install windows on my workstation? You crazy? Got any idea how much I paid for the damn thing?
I will disregard your suggestion, but I will thank you for making it.
Cyric Zndovzny at your service.
I have no problem with Barry. I am sure he is a fine gentleman. I do not, however, condone the ad hominem attacks he launched during several recent debates. It is poor style, and I frankly do not think it is proper.
Cyric Zndovzny at your service.
I've never actually played any of his games. I'm just thanking him for taking the time out of his very busy schedule to come talk with us.
Cyric Zndovzny at your service.
You gotta be kidding. So you are convinced that your "Thank you" posts are necessary and fun, even if you don't have any idea of who the person you thank is? Way to go, way to go. Regards, Lucas Langa
Build a tool even an idiot can use and only an idiot will want to use it. -S.O.B.
I know exactly who he is, even if I have never played any of his games, Lucas. Much like you most likely (or at least you should) know who Andy Tanenbaum is, even if you haven't used Minix.
Thanks for your compliments, Lucas.
Cyric Zndovzny at your service.
A valid statement. Although, what you miss is that all these "Thank you, Slashdot loves you!" posts are pretty pointless and disturbing for many Slashdotters. Speaking of Andy Tanenbaum, I in fact used Minix some years ago and own a couple of his books. So, to end this whole argument I'll just remind you that you are dubbed the latest Arch Karma Whore here. Check this term and see why people see you like that. It's not they don't like you nick or something. It's all about your posts. Slashdotters likes post are interesting, present a new view on some thing or are funny. Try to keep up. Regards, Lucas Langa
Build a tool even an idiot can use and only an idiot will want to use it. -S.O.B.
Indeed, manners, respect and courtesy are something that many Americans fear. And if they fear such things, then I do not care! I will show respect like a true gentleman does, and they will just have to accept it. Indeed.
Cyric Zndovzny at your service.
i dunno... i read it as, "of course i can't say that I condone it otherwise activision can use our name again". (remember) as for 'freeciv' i am not sure if he cares, given that there's little indication that they are competing with his ability to make a living.
it's that IP that allows him to keep doing what he does and not have to work for EA.
http://joystick101.org getting in depth, with games.
Who are you, Devin Moore's mother? If slashdot gave an award to the person who posted the stupidest comment, you'd win a prize. Do you think someone could learn how to stop a pickpocket by playing GTA? Ha ha ha ha ha! What a nut.
The days of guys building a game in their garage and then selling it to a publisher are behind us, I'm afraid
:-(
There are a few smaller companies that do such things. Certainly there are also a lot of tools for making such games, and in some areas a rather large open-source community behind them. I've always looked at OGRE as being one of my favorites from a perspective of capabilities/possibility. There are also a lot of sweet code samples.
The downside is that the organization/requirements of the libs is a bit off, and even following the forum I've only been able to get my test projects (in Quanta) to make it to the point where they segfault
Still, I haven't played with it in awhile, and certainly others seem to do fairly well. The biggest problem I have is the consumer/marketing focus on flashy graphics. All the coding talent in the world won't get you far on your own unless you have skills (or help from somebody with skills) in graphics and probably sound as well.
Some of the games definately look cool/promising though, but they big money is probably still in being bought out by a larger gaming firm... sadly.
I wish some of the old devs like SM who now have 'made their way' might look at amassing groups of the smaller companies and helping them market (for a cut of the pie, but a reasonable one). Certainly it would be nicer than seeing their dreams swallowed by larger behemoths to join in the 'bargain bin' collection or and endless line of sequels.
Indeed, manners, respect and courtesy are something that many Americans fear
And by making such a blanket statement you are ironically displaying a lack of manners, respect, and courtesy. At the least you could quantify your sample size and survey methods. Having lived amongst these "Americans" all my life I'd have to disagree. Your statement seems akin to me writing, "Indeed, dentists and oral hygeine are things many British fear."
We "fear" manners, respect and courtesy? I.E. they make us shake in our cowboy boots?
+++ATH0
Response: I like to play all kinds of games...on a variety of systems. My son and I play games on the PC, PS2, Xbox, GameCube...and they range from Warcraft, to Halo to Grand Turismo...to Civilization. :)
See fanboys, it is okay to enjoy a varitey of games. You don't have to insult fpss' every chance you get because you would rather play a sucky dungeon crawler.
*Que shooting star and "The More You Know" string.
Linux Friendly since, like awhile.
In a game like Civ, we have over 80 units, all with different movement rates, strengths, special abilities, experience levels, etc. We also have to decide where to place cities, what to build, who to be nice to and who to make war with. We also have to decide what to research, what religion to spread, what Civics to adopt, etc. All in all, I don't expect to see anything close to true human intelligence any time soon, as long as games continue to get more complex.
I'm gonna hatemyself for saying this, but... *cough* moron *cough*.
Computer intelligence may be going no where, but our ability to gather redonculously huge amounts of data and run signal processing on our data to extract trends we still dont understand... that is ever increasing. As games get more complex and more multi-faceted this trend will come to dominate.
Imagine if there were tactical elements to WoW. You couldd have one WHOPPER (eh? eh?) of a learning system watching PvP battles to exact winning tactics and strategies. Winners tended to heal more. Winners waited around a corner. Trends would begin to emerge.
Metcalf's law states the the value of any system is determined by the square of the number of participants. Obviously Mr. Meier still has a classical hollistic model of AI where each civilization is a monolithic AI playing against other self-same AIs. The problem here is that he is playing a finite game. Whoo! You have 80 units! Thats a very big matrix to determine combat advantage Mr. Meiers. But its inherently a finite system, a simple matrix by nature of each AI element being a monolithic entity.
There will never be emerging ai behaviors for your systems. The best you can hope for is players attributing their Sim's catching on fire to spontaneous combustion. AI only has a chance through the network; it is through the massive rise in complexity that computer AI will come to take hold-- when the AI can crunch huge potential data sets and evolve hideous numbers of very very short term permutations to decide upon tactics that computer AI will ever have a chance. Your AI is dumb because you built it sir, it will always have all the limitations it had the day it was coded, because in truth you never let it decide anything, its nothing more than discrete decision making paths. Of course that will never advance. We can only build our decision making models so complex, only to emulate such a degree of humanity. Thats not AI. Thats just a robot.
All real intelligence is derived from the knowledge of the interconnected nature of realities.
Then again, Armored Core is my game of choice. You'd have to know it to know. Sweet sweet customizability.
Luv,
LordMyren