Microsoft Accuses European Union of Collusion

GarbagePailKid wrote to mention the news that Microsoft has filed a formal complaint alleging that the EU colluded with company rivals and hid critical documents during the EU regulation hearings. According to Microsoft: "While the documents provided do not include the direct correspondence between the commission and its technical experts, they show that the commission, the trustee, and Microsoft's adversaries were secretly collaborating throughout the fall of 2005 in a manner inconsistent with the commission's role as neutral regulator and the Trustee's role as independent monitor..."

Comments

This Just In:

[TripMaster Monkey]

Emperor Palpatine Accuses Jedi Council Of Collusion!

Film at 11!

Re:This Just In:

[mr_death]

Mr. Pot, meet Mr. Kettle.

Re:This Just In:

[Anonymous Coward]

It is make us all feel any happier, this sort of thing (governments using their power to help domestic companies succeed against foreign companies) has been going on for time-out-of-mind.

Recently this practice has reached it's current zenith in the US. Microsoft is just a miniscule player in this old game. I'm not saying that this sort of national nepotism is healthy or right - it's just the way things are.

Re:This Just In:

[cheesybagel]

Domestic EU companies? IBM, Sun Microsystems, Oracle and Novell?

Big babies

[mrsulu]

Dime late, dollar short, I say. I thought this thing was over and done with.

Re:Big babies

[Anonymous Coward]

The EU would never do such a thing! *cough*Airbus*cough*

Re:Big babies

[Anonymous Coward]

You realize the phrase is actually "day late, dollar short"? You can't be late a dime. Googlefight it if you don't believe me. In quotes, "dime late, dollar short" returns... 1 result. Day late returns 45,000+.

MS blames everyone else.

[yagu]

This is more of the same. Microsoft doesn't seem to have enough fingers to point for blame, of course, except for at anyone but themselves.

A previous slashdot thread discussed Microsoft's "published" documents whereby Microsoft, unsuccessful in their attempts to win over the European Union, instead published their documentation and responses, trying to drum up public support for their ostensible compliance.

Now Microsoft wants to blame the EU and other companies for colluding against them. Poppycock! There would be almost no other way to define the complaint... it basically is about other companies, and Microsoft's tactics in that marketplace. Yes, the EU plays the heavy here, but it is not in cahoots with the other companies.

Microsoft was asked to provide API documentation, they instead offered to license their source (with restrictions), which is in no way the same thing and is an inappropriate substitute.

Of course the EU is going to be discussing this with other companies -- the other companies are the ones injured in this action, and their observations are key in determining real Microsoft compliance.

Re:MS blames everyone else.

[Low2000]

The problem I see is, and I don't have any links to back this up... ... I've read that the problem is the EU is failing to disclose specifics on EXACTLY what kind of documentation is acceptable.

Will someone correct me if I'm wrong?

Re:MS blames everyone else.

[bigwigeconomist]

Of course Microsoft blames everyone else.... Everyone else blames Microsoft. Regardless of the merits of the EU's case against MS, it's important that the trial be fair and appropriately handled and, if Microsoft has reasonable evidence to the point, they have the right to claim damages.

Re:MS blames everyone else.

[GaepysPike]

Somebody mod this one up.

Re:MS blames everyone else.

[tsm_sf]

If you ask for documentation that's "useful and light on the bullshit" you'll get compliance from the folks who are interested in actually providing useful documentation. The people who don't really want to help you out will complain that "useful" is too vague.

Re:MS blames everyone else.

[replicant108]

What's interesting about this is MS's increasingly aggressive stance towards the Commission. There seems to be some tension between the stance taken by the Commission on software patents (where McCreavy in particular is seen to be strongly influenced by MS) and these anti-monopolistic actions.

One wonders if an antagonistic relationship will be beneficial to our favourite monopolist in the long run... Is this a sign of desperation or of arrogance?

Re:MS blames everyone else.

[amliebsch]

But Microsoft did indeed provide some 2700 pages of documentation, which the EU rejected for various ambiguous reasons.

Re:MS blames everyone else.

[99BottlesOfBeerInMyF]

I've read that the problem is the EU is failing to disclose specifics on EXACTLY what kind of documentation is acceptable.

The EU asked for documentation that was complete enough that other companies could code to all the same interface that MS does as judged by several previously agreed upon parties. The first of those parties rejected the initial offering saying it was not usable or up to industry standards. Seeing as this person is someone MS picked to judge this, I don't see how they can find fault with his findings.

Since it would be illegal to publish all the communication in between MS and the EU council none of us can know for certain what is going on, but I think most of us can make some pretty good guesses. MS wants to provide the minimum available information to convince the EU that they have given them what they need. They probably don't have good info documenting this and instead of making it they gave them broken docs and then tried to rope them into an alternative to giving them the docs.

With hundreds of millions of dollars on the line you'd think they could hire some people to exhaustively document the APIs, and you'd be right. The problem is MS does not really want to do that because then they might have to compete on even ground for the server space and that is a fight they can't win with their currently inferior and more expensive product. So they delay and spread FUD while trying to pay off the right people. Even if they lose and have to pay the fines it might still be a good business move for them. The fines are a tiny portion of the profit from their monopoly in the EU and extending that into the server market illegally as they are now doing is a good way to protect that monopoly and expand it.

Re:MS blames everyone else.

[Anonymous Coward]

Of course Microsoft blames everyone else.... Everyone else blames Microsoft.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't being blamed a usual part of being accused of committing a crime?

This is in no way "wahhh, everybody's ganging up on me!" any more than bank robbers could claim that the police and witnesses "gang up on them".

Re:MS blames everyone else.

[Cycloid Torus]

Why didn't they just comply? Is it possible that MS can't provide API documentation easily? Could it be in such a state that it is not "deliverable"?

Re:MS blames everyone else.

[tsm_sf]

2700 pages? There has to be a pony in there somewhere, keep digging.

Re:MS blames everyone else.

[Zaiff Urgulbunger]

Perhaps they [MS] can't see it ever really working out well long term, so they're just using delaying tacktics to put off the inevitable?

Re:MS blames everyone else.

[Anonymous Coward]

What is the worst the EU can do beyond making noise and sending threatening letters ?
What if they simply told the EU to go to hell ?
What can the EU do?
Make noise ? threaten them?
Tell the they cant sell their stuff there no more ?

Re:MS blames everyone else.

[freakmn]

Nah, they just clicked on Windows Help and Support in XP, and printed out the whole thing. Nothing remotely useful there.

Re:MS blames everyone else.

[replicant108]

What is the worst the EU can do beyond making noise and sending threatening letters ?

Support open document formats?
Promote free software procurement policies?
Permanently block software patents?
Implement more stringent anti-monopoly measures?

That's just off the top of my head.

I'm sure there's other stuff they could do.

Re:MS blames everyone else.

[Henry V .009]

The EU has more evil in its little pinkie than all of Microsoft. Microsoft is annoying. The EU is scary.

Re:MS blames everyone else.

[Anonymous Coward]

The Eu's support of all those things is mutually exclusive of them That isnt stopping the EU from doing those things so what are you trying to say ?

Re:MS blames everyone else.

[farrellj]

I guess they are just following the President of the US...It's *never* his fault, it always someone elses...

ttyl
          Farrell

Re:MS blames everyone else.

[Foofoobar]

if Microsoft has reasonable evidence to the point...

'IF' being the operative word. Some other IF's of note...

IF Microsoft did nothing wrong
IF Microsoft is not a monopoly
IF microsoft did not use strong arm tactics
IF Microsoft did use illegal business pratices
IF Microsoft themseleves did not work with other companies to put competitors out of business

Feel free to add your own IF's as well.

Re:MS blames everyone else.

[Anonymous Coward]

What is EU's legal jurisdiction over a US company?
Sure they can stop from selling their products but what else ?
They should just tell the EU to fart in a small enclosure! !

Re:MS blames everyone else.

[QuietLagoon]

What's interesting about this is MS's increasingly aggressive stance towards the Commission.

That's a typical tactic of Microsoft. When they realize that they are not winning, they pull out the stops and get even more aggressive.

There's nothing more here than Microsoft admitting that they've lost.

Re:MS blames everyone else.

[st1d]

If that were true, MS couldn't write it's own quality products.

Oh, wait... :)

Re:MS blames everyone else.

[Shimbo]

What is EU's legal jurisdiction over a US company? Sure they can stop from selling their products but what else ?

Nothing. If they want to close all their offices in Europe and stop selling their product here it's their right. Then the whole of the EU switches to Linux, and Microsoft is in grave danger of becoming irrelevant on the world stage. Good plan!

Re:MS blames everyone else.

[st1d]

It's actually a pretty good tactic, at least in the short term. First, an aggressive attack tends to make even the stronger group (the EU, for this example) flinch and get defensive, buying the aggressive attackers a moment to regroup. Second, from a more political point, it tends to make the stronger group feel like the weaker group "doesn't get it", and the stronger group will expend more time and energy trying to explain it to the "confused" weaker side.

In doing this, MS is trying to force the EU commission to spend more of it's time and resources explaining to journalists and members that it's not actually picking on MS, that this is just something MS is creating to boost their image. It's also forcing the EU to go back and review their communications with MS, to clarify points that MS is pretending to be confused about. In the meantime, MS doesn't have to do anything more than keep spewing statements like this, and can spend the rest of it's efforts on finding a loophole to exploit.

Of course, the downside of doing this is that it only works for so long. Eventually they will have to come up with a means of escaping the mess, because once you use this kind of tactic, you make it real unlikely that the other side will be willing to accept a deal at the same level as they might have before. In fact, it's more likely that the other side won't accept anything less than total surrender, if it goes on long enough. However, it can be a signal of capitulation, if the weaker side simply want's to threaten to do as much damage as possible before the inevitable ending, something of a bargaining chip.

It all depends on how deeply MS tries to wound, and how long they play this game, but I agree, it's not a good sign for MS. If they were simply being "picked on", they would be able to toss up examples of other companies that do the same thing, and most people would agree, and it wouldn't be much of a debate.

Though it might be a bad comparison, it's still interesting to think of it in terms of MS being the Japanese army in WWII, and the Allies as the EU. The Japanese army at least seemed to be willing to fight to the last soldier, and the allies were gearing up for a gruesome fight. The Japanese simply didn't have the resources to fight every single allied soldier, so the tactic was to wear them down, create too many casualties to continue, as we've seen in wars since that time. However, I think MS can't fight a guerilla war like this, simply because the EU probably has a few nukes at their disposal as well, and MS is simply too big an entity to fight a guerilla war properly. At a fundamental level, despite their attacks on the EU, MS needs the EU's business and support, so fighting too hard may do more harm than just tempering the EU's attempt to balance the market. One thing MS doesn't need to do is inspire european nationalistic tendencies, as it did when it received it's non-punishment from the USDOJ.

Re:MS blames everyone else.

[StormReaver]

"...if Microsoft has reasonable evidence to the point, they have the right to claim damages."

I think Microsoft should stand up for itself and show the EU weenies what's what by pulling all Microsoft software off the European market. They could then deliver the knockout blow by doing the same thing in the United States. That would show people who's boss! I think they should do it today.

Re:MS blames everyone else.

[rtb61]

What it sounds like to me, is microsoft is complaining the the EU courts and prosecutors who talking to witness's with out microsoft lawyers being present to conduct their own "aggressive interrogation" techniques (you talk, your company pays).

Obviously unfair to microsoft, every accused criminal should have the right to be present when any witness or victim is being questioned by the authorities when gathering evidence to ensure only answers that the accused criminal would approve of are given, recorded or are admissible in court.

When you do bad things and get caught it is pretty much normal for everyone to blame you. Yeah, I know, it was that other guy or the new guy or it's all lies, lies I tell you, lies nothing but lies.

I bet everybody is waiting for those tens of thousands of letters from concerned European citizens to European members of government about how the nasty EU courts are victimising poor old Microsoft a company who has built a reputation based upon honesty and integrity, well at least a lack of.

Re:MS blames everyone else.

[Jesus_666]

Microsoft might have won over the US DoJ, but the European Union might prove to be a much worse enemy. Unlike the US we're not one nation. If an American government agency screws up and gives a company a far too mild punishment the government sucks and there's not much that happens (this applies to all government agencies worldwide). If the same happens in an EU agency you might end up having nations cry foul because their interests were not properly represented. And nations are not as easily distracted as their citizens.

Also, Microsoft is the epitome of the Evil American Monopoly - and it suffers the fact that we don't like the USA and everything American nearly as much as we did ten years ago. Plus, they've got our tech market by the balls and we don't like being dependant on a corporation from another country (especially when both the corporation and the country have a reputation of being completely ruthless), that's why governments are switching to Linux and that's why they want interoperability. Interoperability opens up the market, allowing other OSes to compete.

Linux is gaining popularity among our politicians and as it does so does the interest in breaking free from Microsoft. The stalling tactics reinforce this interest, too - Microsoft is giving us the message that if we want anything from them (other than product licenses) we have to spend years suing them for it. Someone in Redmond seems to believe in the saying that bad publicity is good publicity...

Re:MS blames everyone else.

[Jesus_666]

All of these things would hurt Microsoft:

Support open document formats: The EU could declare that all official electronic documents have to use the OpenDocument format (where appropriate), effectively forcing Microsoft to provide OpenDocument support or face the fact that people will switch to OpenOffice because they can't use MS Office for stuff like tax declarations. This stuff is going to be done electronically in the future and if MS Office can't do that many people will consider it a showstopper. Note that support for OpenDocument will dilute the value of the MS Office document format because "it does the same but no one wants it so why not use .odt?".

Promote free software procurement policies: Just imagine what happens when the EU deicdes that all member states are to completely switch to Linux in the next ten years. That's a whole market that Microsoft uses. Note that this implies that MS is forced to support OpenDocument and other open formats.

Permanently block software patents: This would greatly reduce Microsoft's power to kill off competitors in the EU through litigation. It would also allow European software companies to use technology patented in the rest of the world, leading to much stronger competition. Those patents even come with public disclosure of how the stuff works. How handy.
Note that we have a very strong anti-patent lobby which has already stopped the last attempt at legitimizing software patents. They were not banned but the bill was rejected - because the European anti-patent lobby is strong, has good media presence (through things like website strikes) and directly gives them positive feedback for acting against patents - for example they presented the thanks of thirty thousand supporters to the Polish parliament when they stopped an attempt to pass the bill. Software patents are not banned in Europe, but we have people working at it and they're working well.

Implement more stringent anti-monopoly measures: This would mean more legal trouble for Microsoft, whose business model is built on "own a market and then take advantage of that". More stringent anti-monopoly laws would make the European market much less profitable for Micosoft - but they can't pull out because that would hurt their OS monopoly in the rest of the world, which they need to make money.

None of these practices are mutually exclusive and combined they could make Europe a very unpleasant place to be for an IT corporation (but paradisiac for small-to-middle sized businesses). The EU is currently in the process of partially implementing some of them (some governments are moving more and more of their stuff to Linux, which will make open standards a necessity sooner or later), some might happen if we don't stop fighting (the banning of software patents, even more government OSS, open standards) and some will probably happen if certain companies don't stop blatantly ignoring rules they don't like (more stringent anti-monopoly laws, more government OSS).

Re:MS blames everyone else.

[Spinlock_1977]

Being a developer, I've often thought Microsoft's documentation sucked. It's nice to see the EU (and their advisors) agree.

Re:MS blames everyone else.

[Anonymous Coward]

Where you live things may be different. Out here reasoning such as

"Of course Microsoft blames everyone else.... Everyone else blames Microsoft"

cease to convince by junior high.

Re:MS blames everyone else.

[Anonymous Coward]

Um, not 2700, but 12,000. Plus 500 hours of premier level tech support for each licensee.

Re:MS blames everyone else.

[Anonymous Coward]

Ahh, but if MS decides to pay the fines as a cost of doing business in the EU, the EU can point at the fact that they aren't complying, and escalate the punishment. To give you an indication of what I'm talking about: there's a guy in Australia who was fined for illegally clearing land in Queensland. The fine was less than the amount that the value of the cleared land increased by after clearing. Woo hoo -- net profit, even after that nasty fine! So the guy did it again.

He's now trying to explain to a judge why he should not be sent to jail.

If MS is forced to pay the fine, and refuses to comply with the court's directive, the EU can start applying stiffer and stiffer penalties, until MS either has to comply, or pull out of the EU entirely. They don't want either situation -- MS pulling out of the EU would cede too much of the market share that keeps Microsoft dominant across the world, and the business would go downhill rapidly; and complying gives up too much of the secrets they exploit to stay where they are.

In the long term, Microsoft needs the EU more than the EU needs MS. The problem the EU has is that, in the short term, they need MS more. If the EU can grit their teeth and deal with the short term pain, Microsoft will be in for a world of hurt.

Re:MS blames everyone else.

[Overly Critical Guy]

They weren't ambiguous about it. They clearly stated the documentation was one big spambomb of API declarations and sparse descriptions that weren't helpful at all. Microsoft clearly just gathered up a bunch of functions from all over the place and threw them at the EU in a half-assed "fuck you" maneuver. This is typical Microsoft, a strategy of stalling to make things lose steam and blow over. I wonder how the EU will react to this and if they'll take kindly to this gigantic American company making public accusations.

Re:MS blames everyone else.

[Anonymous Coward]

...and, please, China too. No, not just the legitimate copies, but all the pirate ones too - do a Microsoft Update to end all Updates. Wow; what a nice thought :D

Re:MS blames everyone else.

[Baki]

why should you blame everyone when everyone is blaming you?

a more logical reaction would be to consider that maybe there is really something wrong with your behaviour, and finally change it. until now, all MSFT has ever done is to keep their old ways in spite of several convictions, and try to hide that. they fail to have any sound self criticism. i think the companies culture is so rotten, it be better when they are split up after all, for the market but also for their shareholders. only then is there a chance to improve and change.

Re:MS blames everyone else.

[mikeb]

This is slashdot. People will correct you even if you are RIGHT!

Re:MS blames everyone else.

[Anonymous Coward]

That's funny cause everyone else blamed Hitler and Hitler blamed everyone else ;)

Re:MS blames everyone else.

[oliverthered]

How about adding,

Forsing Microsoft to unbundle every new feature in Windows Vista that directly compeats with another company, e.g. internet search is an attempt to kill off google.

And then forsing them to sell at a significantly reduced price (compaired to the fully bundled version of vista) and forcing them to setup a web page that points to competitors products.

Then welcoming the competition to setup HQ's in the EU.

Re:MS blames everyone else.

[walt-sjc]

I would expect that if MS pulled their products from the EU, the EU would suspend MS's copyright due to the economic impact on the EU and basically approve "piracy" of MS products.

This is a fight that MS can NOT ultimately win IF the EU stands its ground. MS is dragging this out as long as possible to further cement their monopoly and push out the date that they will have no choice but to comply as far in to the future as possible.

The EU should get off it's duff and start fining MS now until they DO fully comply. This foot dragging continues to harm competitors and discourage potential competitors.

The US DOJ totally capitulated for political reasons which has severely damaged "true" competition in the US. Don't let that happen in the EU too.

Re:MS blames everyone else.

[indifferent children]

This is slashdot. People will correct you even if you are RIGHT!

This is slashdot. People will correct you even if you agree with them.

Re:MS blames everyone else.

[indifferent children]

I think Microsoft should stand up for itself and show the EU weenies what's what by pulling all Microsoft software off the European market.

That would be great for Linux, except that the EU would probably declare Microsoft to be a "criminal enterprise" (using whatever passes for a RICO statute in Europe), and declare their copyrights null and void within Europe. That could actually hurt Linux adoption.

Re:MS blames everyone else.

[mgblst]

It is like the school bully claiming that the teacher is colluding with the other students to segregate him from the school. Yeah he is correct, but so what. Colluding isn't wrong, unless you are breaking the law.

Re:MS blames everyone else.

[LifesABeach]

Lets see if I get this right. Microsoft wants us to believe that their desktop IS THE OPERATING SYSTEM. That because it has been proven time and again that Windows has more quality failures than swiss cheese has holes. NOW they blame EU for making a rational decision.

Is there a "No Tolerance On Using Drugs Policy" at Microsoft?

Re:MS blames everyone else.

[99BottlesOfBeerInMyF]

Regardless of the merits of the EU's case against MS, it's important that the trial be fair and appropriately handled and, if Microsoft has reasonable evidence to the point, they have the right to claim damages.

You seem to be operating under a misconception. The trial is over. Microsoft lost. This is Microsoft arguing over whether or not they are actually going to comply with the punishment they agreed they would comply with. Think, "Yeah I know I said I'd spend the 30 days in jail, but it might really cause problems for my drug dealing business. I think I'm going to just confine myself to my home and play video games for a month instead. Except Thursday, I need to go meet some Columbian guys at the airport Thursday."

Re:MS blames everyone else.

[ProZachar]

"IF Microsoft did nothing wrong"

Companies will sometimes act amorally in the pursuit of profits. Why is this news to anyone? Why is it so terrible that Microsoft does it?

"IF Microsoft is not a monopoly"
Unix exists, Linux exists, OSX exists. Seems like Microsoft has plenty of competition.

"IF microsoft did not use strong arm tactics"
"IF Microsoft did use illegal business pratices"

Please, tell me how decisions that Microsoft has every right to make (i.e. closed vs open source, closed vs open standards) are illegal?

"IF Microsoft themseleves did not work with other companies to put competitors out of business"

Horror of horrors! That a company in a competitve market actually wants to cut the throats (figuratively speaking) of its competitors? What's next, we go after Doyle Brunson because he wants to break (monetarily speaking) everbody else seated at the same poker table with him?

Re:MS blames everyone else.

[Foofoobar]

Is this Steve Ballmer... dude, shouldn't you be practicing for the Olympic Chair Tossing event?

Nice troll by the way. Doubt you'll convince anyone though.

Known Fact?

[biocute]

I thought everybody knows that Microsoft's rivals are constantly trying to bring it down?

Re:Known Fact?

[dotpavan]

that is not the point, the point is EU (being a or supposed to be a neutral agency) colluded with them. Nothing wrong in competition doing that, but not the judge. (believing by what MS says)

Re:Known Fact?

[penix1]

Which is pure BS. When MS got ruled against in the US the first thing they did was focus on the judge and the court to find a reason to water down the "final settlement". They are doing the same thing here....

Look at the Wookie!

B.

Re:Known Fact?

[MightyMartian]

You have companies accusing Microsoft of various bad behavior. You have a lawful commission demanding information from MS to make a determination. You have MS playing all sorts of nasty tricks and now snivelling about the commission colluding with the competitors. That's like saying the prosecution in the OJ Simpson trial were colluding with the victims' families.

Re:Known Fact?

[Cal Paterson]

Look at the Wookie!

Greatest monologue ever.

Re:Known Fact?

[PitaBred]

For those who don't know, parent is referring to the Chewbacca Defense

Isn't all forms of government

[cybrthng]

convuluted, one sided and decided by those who scream the loudest and push the most money to the right people?

Suing microsoft is about the dumbest thing in the world with all of the problems societies across the world face. Tax dollars and legislative time should be better spent on real issues not internet explorer and windows media.

Re:Isn't all forms of government

[PrescriptionWarning]

perhaps it seems like a waste because something like a simple media player sounds like a pretty piddly thing to be worrying about. which realistically it is, however when you see that a ruling of this nature applies to much more than just one little application, but a whole range of them, it really takes it back to the whole fact that Microsoft basically wants every piece of your PC system to run Microsoft applications only. This way, they can justify charging you more money, or in the very least keep money from flowing to competing applications who never have a chance to begin with since most people are likely to use what it comes with. The only way it could be worse is if MS tried to make it so you simply couldn't use anything but software they approved of use, and I think if they could have it this way, they probably would.

Re:Isn't all forms of government

[RingDev]

Aww, come on! Someone has to make the Lawyers and /. Advertisers rich!

-Rick

Re:Isn't all forms of government

[scuba0]

This is not only about Microsoft. This is about multiinternational companies supressing smaller companies for their own profit. In this case Microsoft is locking third parties outside of the software market for servers and desktopts using OS from Microsoft. By reading your comment it seams like you like companies and not goverments to rule. In that case, why do we have a goverments at all? You comment tax money, what should they be used for if not to protect the goverments citiziens and corporations. Sure there will always be "more important" issues to spend the money on but that doesn't mean that they won't talk back to Microsoft just because it costs more than if it where a small company.

Re:Isn't all forms of government

[99BottlesOfBeerInMyF]

Suing microsoft is about the dumbest thing in the world with all of the problems societies across the world face. Tax dollars and legislative time should be better spent on real issues not internet explorer and windows media.

The EU is not suing Microsoft. They are overseeing MS's punishment for breaking the law. You might as well argue "tax dollars should not be spent collecting fines from convicted litterers. Just because we went to the expense of trying them and finding them guilty there is no reason we should waste time actually getting the money from them or making sure they do their community service."

Microsoft intentionally broke the law for profit. They are still doing it. They were convicted of it in a number of jurisdictions. You don't think they should be punished for that? You don't think they should have to obey the laws? You don't think something should be done to discourage them from doing it again?

Re:Isn't all forms of government

[Anonymous Coward]

"The only way it could be worse is if MS tried to make it so you simply couldn't use anything but software they approved of use..."

If I understand it correctly, with TPM/DRM they conceivably could.

Re:Isn't all forms of government

[geekee]

"You comment tax money, what should they be used for if not to protect the goverments citiziens and corporations."

Yes they're doing a great job of protecting Microsoft's right to do business. Typical socialist mentality that consumers gain additional unfair rights at the expense of producers. That's the story anyway. The reality is that competitors are looking for an unfair advantage in a market they've failed in, so they use the govt. to do their dirty work. When is Apple going to get some of that protection for doing the same thing in the online music market?

Re:Isn't all forms of government

[Anonymous Coward]

Jay-walking is against the law. Do you ALWAYS obey it even though it is a stupid law? Should you be shot in the leg after the first, second, or third offense to discourage you from doing it again? And I am not saying that the anti-trust act is stupid, I'm saying that declaring a corporation a monopoly and fining them because the OS THEY made comes with THEIR internet browser that is an integral part of the system and THEIR media player installed by default. Did anyone bitch and moan about Windows Explorer being the default packaged file browser? Can you uninstall Windows Explorer? OMG!!!! Windows Explorer can also be used to browse the internet!!!! MONOPOLY!!!!!!11111111oneoneoneoneone

Re:Isn't all forms of government

[99BottlesOfBeerInMyF]

Jay-walking is against the law. Do you ALWAYS obey it even though it is a stupid law? Should you be shot in the leg after the first, second, or third offense to discourage you from doing it again? And I am not saying that the anti-trust act is stupid, I'm saying that declaring a corporation a monopoly and fining them because the OS THEY made comes with THEIR internet browser that is an integral part of the system and THEIR media player installed by default.

Stick to the topic. This is not about the browser, this is about the interfaces to the server OS. Bundling is illegal in almost every jurisdiction because it is a simple and easy way to use a monopoly to move into and take over new markets with products that are no better (and often worse) than the competition. Tying, is slightly more complex. The gist of it is, Windows server editions have an advantage over a Linux or Solaris box because they can speak all the secret protocols used to communicate with the desktop. This includes exchange, active directory, etc. As a result of this, Windows servers have an advantage based solely in the fact that they are made by the same company as Windows desktop. Windows servers are generally slower, less secure, less reliable, and can't multitask for crap, but they are tied to Windows desktop and Windows desktop OS's have a monopoly so everyone has to talk to them.

Thus MS was convicted, as they had been in the US and several other countries and as part of their punishment they were ordered to document all those secret interfaces by which their server was being illegally given an advantage. They are in the process of trying to weasel out of that. The reason: they know they can't compete in a fair market but they want to take over that market anyway and they don't mind breaking the law until someone manages to force them to stop.

If you'd like an explanation as to why bundling the browser and media player are illegal and bad for the industry (and can't already see the parallel) just ask, or go ahead and do a Google search. Antitrust law is very well explained many places online.

The long and short is they broke the law and it hurt everyone in the industry. I know a number of sysadmins who run Windows servers as well as Linux simply because they need something that can talk to exchange and active directory. Those servers usually only run one application, since Windows becomes unstable with multiple ones under load. They basically suck, but MS was paid for them anyway. How many billions of dollars did that suck out of countries around the globe? How many cool new technologies were not developed as people struggled to reverse engineer these secret protocols? How much manpower was wasted? How much did the computing industry suffer?

Re:Isn't all forms of government

[KwKSilver]

convuluted, one sided and decided by those who scream the loudest and push the most money to the right people?

Which is why MS ended up with a slap on the wrist with a limp noodle from the DOJ, after being found guilty of anti-trust violations here in the U.S. The poor things!

Re:Isn't all forms of government

[NadaTech]

Agreed. What good is an OS without a browser? How are you going to get another browser without a browser to begin with? Microsoft has more money than many European Union Countries, and they all want some of it. Microsoft makes Windows. They have every right to include whatever they want in the operating System. They have every right to maintain a tight grip on their proprietary API. Microsoft makes outstanding products. Linux does not compare to Microsoft products. I have yet to find a single flavor that is as easy to use, stable and secure as any Microsoft product. I am referring to ALL THREE traits combined. It is a well known fact that any Linux Distro is easily as insecure or even more so than any Microsoft product. Microsoft was forced to sell a stripped down version of their OS. They complied. Guess what? No ONE IS BUYING IT! Why? Because no one wants a stripped down OS. They want a full featured, all in one product that is affordable and simple to use. This is not about the people. This is about other companies and crooked politicians wanting more money for doing nothing. Linux is a great product, but have you ever tried to call Linux tech support? If it even exists at all, it is VERY expensive. If I have a problem with my Linux boxes, I find it easier to backup what data I can and reload as opposed to troubleshooting it. I rarely have to call Microsoft, but when I do, they have solved my issues each and every time. Where can I get Free Linux training? Whenever I google for it, I am lead to hundreds of sites that offer one page of text training. If you need to learn Microsoft products, you can get free, instructor led, on-demand training on nearly every product they make by visiting - http://www.microsoft.com/events/default.mspx or http://www.microsoft.com/learning

Re:Isn't all forms of government

[penix1]

"The reality is that competitors are looking for an unfair advantage in a market they've failed in, so they use the govt. to do their dirty work."

Microsoft was found guilty of antitrust laws in the US and other countries by illegally tying one product (Media Player in this case) with another (Windows OS). No matter how you slice it, that is what they did. They required users (I HATE the term "consumers") to purchase media player (embedded in the price of the OS) in order to use Windows. That is the definition of "tying".

B.

Re:Isn't all forms of government

[Eudial]

Suing microsoft is about the dumbest thing in the world with all of the problems societies across the world face. Tax dollars and legislative time should be better spent on real issues not internet explorer and windows media.

Ahem... tax euros.

Irony, indeed...

[Anonymous Coward]

... but such things often happen in Biff Henderson's Realm of Mystery.

Seriously, one arrogant bureaucratic monopoly accuses another one of cheating. Hell, that's theater. Somebody pass the popcorn!

And?

[SheeEttin]

And has Microsoft ever not done this?

Obvious

[Anonymous Coward]

Microsoft isn't admitting to their loathsome business tactics? No shit...

ROFLMAO

[Anonymous Coward]

Is this the same Microsoft?

Now, let's see how much sympathy we as a community can collectively muster...

Can't anyone spare a thought for those poor starving MSFT investors?

More important news

[wetfeetl33t]

Meanwhile, in other news...
Reports of heavy breathing sounds in the forest and a string of grisly murders have raised fears that Steve Ballmer has returned to Europe!

Re:More important news

[Anonymous Coward]

rumours have it that the EU parliament is going to fly in dick cheney to aid in the hun.. err, search for steve ballmer...

Childhood

[FidelCatsro]

Reminds me of an argument some 5 year olds would have
"Your a colluder "
"No I'm not , you are"
"Takes one to know one"
"I'm telling "

Re:Childhood

[hamfactorial]

"Your a colluder "

Children these days misspell even while speaking? Oh the humanity!

Re:Childhood

[Anonymous Coward]

Kids those days don't speak anymore. They only communicate by IM chats.

Re:Childhood

[FidelCatsro]

Um , that is the correct spelling ;) .
UK English

Re:Childhood

[Anonymous Coward]

Prick.

Re:Childhood

[Anonymous Coward]

Well at least you know how to spell that. How about going for a six letter word next.
Ignoramus.

Re:Childhood

[ObsessiveMathsFreak]

You're wrong.

Re:Childhood

[Anonymous Coward]

Asshol.

Re:Childhood

[FidelCatsro]

It was meant to read Yur a Colluder .. deliberately misspelt , but I accidentally misspelt the misspelling

Conspiracy Theories

[aralin]

I thought that only Microsoft opponents resort to conspiracy theories, like the lovely Halloween documents and others, but it looks like Microsoft is learning from their opponents just another trick.

Erp!

[duffel]

At first glance I read "Microsoft Acquires European Union ... ".

Oh, come on we can all see it coming!

Yawn...

[mcho]

Yawn -- I just dropped the kids of the pool...where's the usual 20+ stories about Google and Apple? I want to read about speculation and not how a bully is getting bullied.

Ha!

[Anonymous Coward]

Pot, I'd like you to meet kettle.

The pot calling ...

[Anonymous Coward]

... the kettle black.

Re:The pot calling ...

[Anonymous Coward]

What do you have to bring racism into this?

Hey Microsoft..

[GmAz]

Hey Microsoft.... [Cookie]?

Accusations

[Syberghost]

Next they'll accuse them of having a monopoly on European government.

Re:Accusations

[Otonotachibana]

Anyone that feels the entitlement to maintain a monopoly would probably see all attempts to erode their position as collusion with their competitors (competitors meaning everyone else).

It's all about efficient execution....

[freerangegeek]

Obviously Microsoft would complain about collusion. They've determined long ago that being a monoply is much more efficient for trampling the victim.

What's good for the goose...

[Anonymous Coward]

is good for the gander, motherfuckers!!!

So?

[EiZei]

So what are they going to do about it? Stop selling in the biggest economy of the world?

Re:So?

[kadathseeker]

Besides, uh, China? And India? They already have the US, which has about half the population of Europe.

Gasp! Shock! Horror!

[rewt66]

So let me see if I have this right: Microsoft has been required to publish specifications for it's protocols so that other people can make the same OS calls as Microsoft apps can make. The point of the documentation is that it be useful to other companies. So in the process of determining whether Microsoft has actually produced documentation that meets the requirements, the EU checks with other companies! Oh, the horror of collusion!

Give me a break, Microsoft.

No *YOU'RE* hiding documents

[Anonymous Coward]

Commission: "Microsoft you're hiding the documents"
Microsoft: "No, you're hiding the documents"
Commission: "Microsoft you're failing to comply"
Microsoft: "No, YOU'RE failing to comply with knobs on"

Yawn, same old crap from Microsoft.

So what?

[Spy der Mann]

It's the EU who has the final word. They'll simply dismiss Microsoft's formal complaint.

Big fish, meet bigger fish. [Nelson]HAH HAH![/Nelson]

Re:So what?

[Anonymous Coward]

It's the EU who has the final word. They'll simply dismiss Microsoft's formal complaint.

If the EU has the final word, then why have they still not gotten Microsoft to comply with local antitrust laws after several years of trying?

Re:So what?

[Jim_Callahan]

Yeah, circumventing your own laws to go out of your way to harm a company whose business supports a large number of citizens in a country with more clout than you... yeah! Then you can weaken your own legal system, suffer internal liberal backlash, and send a message to one of your biggest allies that you make a habit of dealing in bad faith! Brilliant!

They'll deal with the complaint the way they're supposed to deal with a compliant, investigating it and making a descision based on the law.

Re:So what?

[greenrd]

If the EU has the final word, then why have they still not gotten Microsoft to comply with local antitrust laws after several years of trying?

Because they're actually pretty corrupt. What you're seeing is them being more lenient than they should have been with Microsoft.

However, despite being pretty corrupt, they seem to be doing a much better job of prosecuting MS for anti-trust than either the Clinton or Bush administrations. Go figure...

Re:So what?

[fdisk3hs]

It's interesting that Microsoft is attacking governments now. I think I see a trend. They intimidated all but 9 states, I believe, in the antitrust case. Now the Maryland OpenDocument business. Next the EU. As soon as a bean counter figures out how it will be profitable, they will buy a small country.
 
Think about it. Apple has gotten so big now that they are similar in size to some large company, I believe Ford Motors? We are talking BIG companies. And Microsoft is still about 20 times bigger. Boggles the mind.
 
Evram Miller, of Intel Venture Capital, talked in his interview on NerdTV about some of Intel's decisions in the the 90's. He says they could have done a lot of great things, but didn't because of pressure from Microsoft. He said, straight up, Intel is afraid of Microsoft. INTEL.
 
You can talk about conspiracy theories, but this is the new millennium. There is no such thing as paranoia.

Re:So what?

[Overly Critical Guy]

They're not circumventing any laws; the law gives them that authority.

It could be argued Microsoft software has done more to harm citizens (in the computing sense, of course). If it wasn't for the illegal OEM deals of the 90s, we might not have had to suffer through the Windows 9x series. Ugh. With history in mind, the EU probably views these antitrust hearings as preventive measures--they see how the American economy has come to rely on software that's unreliable, and they don't want to let Microsoft run free as it has in the States.

Re:So what?

[DerWulf]

please. You make it sound as if Windows crashes every forty seconds. I've been logged on to this workstation since 22 of February and that reboot was for applying a securtiy update. While not exactly a stress test, my daily work requires keeping multiple words, huge excels, remote desktop connections, outlook, eclipse and many many browser windows open. Hooking up to some sort of NAT device, having a virus scanner, firefox and viewing emails only as plain text keeps your Windows plenty safe and stable.

Re:So what?

[oliverthered]

"having a virus scanner, firefox and viewing emails only as plain text keeps your Windows plenty safe and stable."

See, you have to implement workarounds to keep windows stable, it should be stable out of the box.

Re:So what?

[ccp]

As soon as a bean counter figures out how it will be profitable, they will buy a small country.

Already done. Does Ireland ring a bell?

Cheers,

Why does the EU even care?

[MikeRT]

How many of these companies are actually European?

Re:Why does the EU even care?

[und0]

I wonder how many of these customers are european?

Re:Why does the EU even care?

[quintesse]

So you think the EU should not care when an US company does something wrong in Europe and when it does it should only try to find help from European companies to find out what it did wrong?

So how about people? Shouldn't we care if an American kills another American on European soil?

Personally I'm glad they care.

Corporate Policy Forbids It!

[mpapet]

I could see how this could happen:

-Maybe they have trademarked the word and process for databases?
-HR would never speak "they who must not be named" word.
-Corporation has a policy specifically forbidding the use of the word.
-Sales thinks they are a customer, but HR has forbidden the word be spoken, so they use the phrase "negotiation organization" instead.

It seems quite logical now....

You forget ...

[AnonymousPrick]

this is /. . Bashing MS is still the best way to karma whore.

What happened to the days when MS, along with Apple, was the hero because they were against the big bad IBM monopoly. Bill Gates, Steve Jobs, Steve Wozniak, Phillipe Kahn, and others, were heros because of their success and they were leaders of a new age.

It's funny, how things change. I understand why old people are the way they are. Fuck! I'm becoming an old guy!

hey kids! Get out of yard!

I've got to go...goddamn kids!

Re:You forget ...

[just_another_sean]

What happened to the days when MS, along with Apple, was the hero because they were against the big bad IBM monopoly.

Oh I don't know. Maybe those days ended when Microsoft was forced to settle with the US Dept. Of Justice or risk being guilty of antitrust violations?

Re:You forget ...

[Tim C]

No, those days ended long before that. If you cast your mind back, you'll remember lots of gleeful speculation right here on slashdot as to what the punishment would be, with a lot of people advocating nothing less than being broken up into smaller companies.

Slashdot has always been anti-MS, often regardless of actual merit.

Re:You forget ...

[st1d]

I don't know about "forced to settle", but I think it's possible that in the long run, it might have been better for MS to admit they'd abused their power, accept some punishment that at least appeared to be a little harsh at the time (before Linux was as desktop friendly, and Apple was still trying to get it's house in order), and twist that into some sort of PR benefit. Getting a slap on the hand might have helped them retain their power at the time, but it also implied that they'd bought off the US government in some way, or just as damning, that the US government sees the established base of MS PC's overseas as an intelligence resource worth maintaining, regardless of MS's abuses.

In other words, by gaming the US system, MS simply brought out nationalistic tendencies in the countries they're desperately trying to increase their base in, and perked the ears of any country that might not want the US to have access to all their information. Instead of appearing to be an innocent company "picked on" by the US government, they simply confirmed that they're a company that will do anything to win. In doing so, they all but "dared" other countries to try and punish them. Unfortunately for MS, there are far too many countries out there who are more than willing to punish large US companies, especially in Europe.

It's just speculation, and in retrospect, nonetheless, but it's still an interesting idea, to me.

Re:You forget ...

[AJWM]

Slashdot has always been anti-MS, often regardless of actual merit.

Probably because of the number of slashdotters (vs the general public) who actually understand the industry, and/or work in it.

The fact that Microsoft is apparently incapable of documenting their interfaces is symptomatic of the development "methodology" within MS, and the quality of their product (bugs? viruses? etc) is another symptom. The misery that their whale dreck has caused many said slashdotters is the main reason for said anti-MS sentiment -- and actually that has everything to do with actual merit.

Re:You forget ...

[NadaTech]

"2026 - Internet Explorer buys WIndows, tries to charge Apple visual fees." Sound familiar? The U.S. Govt. broke up AT&T, and now look. SBC has purchased it's old parent company, acquired it's name, and is now trying to extort Google, Yahoo, etc with bandwidth throttling. This is pathetic. Like i said in my previous post, if you don't like it, make something better. If you can't make something better, then shut up. That's the problem with these companies. They're not being squeezed out, they just have not been "acquired" by Microsoft. instead, they have made their own competing product, and they suck, and they can't compete, so they grease some politicians and sue. Microsoft provides enough information for rivals to make any app run under Windows. The problem is, they usually bundle it with some sort of spyware. Real, Netscape, AOL, you name it. They all want to spy on you. In addition, the EU now wants a backdoor in to all Vista systems. How unbelievably pathetic.

Re:You forget ...

[Anonymous Coward]

Probably because of the number of slashdotters (vs the general public) who actually understand the industry, and/or work in it.

I agree with this 100%.

I was on slashdot back in the late '90s and then, as now, slashdot was populated with a vast majority of MS haters - primarily because they worked in the industry and had better insight into how MS goes about its business than your average Joe Bloggs...

Netscape was only one of many, many casualties over the years of the strong arm way in which Microsoft conducted itself.

Well you have to remember something...

[Chowderbags]

Microsoft is so used to being the only player in town that any two groups working together looks like collusion to them.

The EU is more corrupt than Microsoft.

[Deputy Doodah]

One of the organizations that is more corrupt than Microsoft is the EU. History (especially recent history) supports my statement. I think Microsoft may be right in this case.

Re:The EU is more corrupt than Microsoft.

[Ullteppe]

Nobody is saying Microsoft is corrupt, they are saying that Microsoft is abusing its market position. There's a big difference.

Now, perhaps you could list a list of SPECIFIC cases where the EU is seen as corrupt? Also, please refresh my memory about how the EU is even remotely as bad as the Bush administration (Halliburton, oil companies etc.) in this regard?

Re:The EU is more corrupt than Microsoft.

[Goeland86]

I beg to differ. Imo, MS is desperate and trying to fling mud around. The commission has historically been rather clean of the corruption. And for corruption, I'd like to see how the US FCC or other agencies compare to the EU's commission.
Seriously, they're scared that the EU will spawn a continent where MS is either broken to pieces and has to compete, or a continent without MS altogether, which would then let Apple get a bigger hold, and *gasp* Opensource even more so.
Remember that the idea of profit first is typically American, helping others is a cultural reflex shared by most EU countries, unlike the States... So companies that set a standard in the EU will probably respect it and play fair game. Sure there's bound to be some under the table dealing, but if it's found out, it gets killed a lot more rapidly. And most of the governments in the EU make lobbying illegal! The UK's an exception, but it's frowned upon there, so it doesn't happen as much as here. Government in the EU is actually about who screams the loudest, not who has the biggest wallet. Which puts people on par, bigger wallet doesn't mean louder voice... So just let the EU crank down on MS, they deserve it even if it's not by a "holy" organization.

Re:The EU is more corrupt than Microsoft.

[Anonymous Coward]

Microsoft may be in the right but I don't care, they need bringing down a peg or 462 million. It's like watching the playground bully get knocked around by the teacher who also happens to be a champion prison boxer and is virtually immune to prosecution.

EU to Microsoft: Give us your dinner money
Microsoft to EU: Here, this is all we have
EU to Microsoft: You are lying, we want ALL your dinner money
Microsoft to EU: We're going to tell on you
EU to Microsoft: That's very interesting. Now drop your pants and bend over.

Both parties are evil but one had this comming all along and everybody knew it but them.

Re:The EU is more corrupt than Microsoft.

[Anonymous Coward]

>>History (especially recent history) supports my statement

Links please to support your statement????

Re:The EU is more corrupt than Microsoft.

[trixy_1086]

Please quote the portion of the parent post that mentioned the Bush administration, hence eliciting your reply. I don't understand why a discussion of Micrsoft vs. the EU all of a sudden necessitates pointing out that the Bush Administration is corrupt. I'm not saying that I disagree with you, but the bashing seems quite unnecessary and out of context, and just makes you look silly.

Re:The EU is more corrupt than Microsoft.

[Anonymous Coward]

lol what magical world do you live in? if you think governments in europe are less corrupt then in the USA then you're dreaming. They care just as much about big wallets as anyone else, oh and don't worry, MS won't be going anywhere anytime soon.

Re:The EU is more corrupt than Microsoft.

[Anonymous Coward]

No need to drag the US's sad state of affairs into it.

Re:The EU is more corrupt than Microsoft.

[SSCGWLB]

*blah blah * bush *blah blah* Is that really the entire substance of your argument?

Examples of EU/EC corruption:
Auditors reject EU accounts again
For E.U. Critics, a Cautionary Tale
Kinnock EU whistleblower 'hung out to dry'
EU accounting worse than Enron, says whistleblower
New scandal hits EC over insider trading
EU in turmoil after executive commission resigns

Wow, you are right, the EU/EC is a regular shining white pillar of purity. I'm being sarcastic, BTW. I found these examples with 3 minutes and google. Yes, there where many more. ~nate

Re:The EU is more corrupt than Microsoft.

[Anonymous Coward]

Remember that the idea of profit first is typically American, helping others is a cultural reflex shared by most EU countries, unlike the States...

A typical Euro-weenie stereotype. We give way more than you do.

While Adelman admits that "there are no complete figures for international private giving" she still says that Americans are "clearly the most generous on earth in public--but especially in private--giving".

http://www.globalissues.org/TradeRelated/Debt/USAi d.asp#Sidenoteonprivatecontributions

Re:The EU is more corrupt than Microsoft.

[grrrgrrr]

Maybe when the eu was more corrupt al this fighting will not be necessary and the eu comity can buy some nice apartment on the french riviera and all this fighting is not necessary corruption has its good points you know. For the companies that sued ms maybe they could do something else make nice cheese or nice wine or nice sports-cars and forget about that stupid computer thing who needs that that is just for working and who needs to work let the chinese and indians do the work.

Re:The EU is more corrupt than Microsoft.

[eh2o]

Maybe you should read that report again... while the dollar contributions of the US are large, relative to GNP the US is one of the most stingy nations in the world.

Re:The EU is more corrupt than Microsoft.

[Richard Steiner]

Oh good! A contest...

Here are some Microsoft misbehaviors

Re:The EU is more corrupt than Microsoft.

[Anonymous Coward]

Maybe you should read that report again... while the dollar contributions of the US are large, relative to GNP the US is one of the most stingy nations in the world.
You mean GDP. And your an asshole who would take away money from those who earn it.

I'm confused. Would you like it if some nobody in some other country, told you that you were cheap because you didn't donate enough of your paycheck to satisfy them? In America, the government doesn't grant us state run crappy health care. It doesn't grant us a bankrupt pension either. We have other bills to pay such as nice health care and retirement funds.

Remind me again why I donated 3/52 of my 2005 salary to tsunami/katrina victims. Remind me also of my good friend in the UK who went bankrupt to take his daughter to a specialist the UK medical system didn't provide for.

The socalist dream doesn't exist. It never has. Pull your head out of your ass and get a job.

Re:The EU is more corrupt than Microsoft.

[Ullteppe]

I'm not saying the EU is perfect, it's surely not. But having an American call the EU corrupt is really like the kettle calling the pot black.

And remember, I did not say that Microsoft was corrupt. They might be abusing their market powers, which is what is under investigation.

Re:The EU is more corrupt than Microsoft.

[SSCGWLB]

I agree with you, I have never said the American Gov was perfect. Money corrupts and governments/corporations have lots of money. I can think of many governments around the world (including the US) that have suffered again and again from corruption. All I was trying to do was respond to "Now, perhaps you could list a list of SPECIFIC cases where the EU is seen as corrupt?" with a few specific cases. Now that we both acknowledge our respective governing entities need a butt kicking, we should get on it!

~nate

Re:Outcome

[99BottlesOfBeerInMyF]

I'd like for Microsoft to win this, be eligible to sue the EU for several billion dollars more than what the EU can get off Microsoft, and then all sides play by the rules for the rest of the debacle.

What the hell are you talking about? MS built their business model around intentionally breaking the laws and once convicted of that are trying to avoid complying with the punishment the courts handed down. And they're doing the same thing in the US, where the DOJ appointed "watchdogs" have reported that MS has also failed to comply with what amounted to a slap on the wrist. It's as if you shoot someone, get convicted, but only given six months probation and a $500 fine because you pay off the judge, and then you don't even fulfill your probation terms.

The "rules" in this situation are the laws which MS is continuing to break and making a bundle doing so. They need to be broken up into multiple companies so this crap stops.

Truly amazing

[Anonymous Coward]

First they refuse to comply with the law. Then they refuse to comply with the judgement against them for breaking the law. Then they publicly agree to comply with the judgement against them for breaking the law, but don't ever begin to actually comply. Then they do a bunch of stuff unrelated to the judgement and complain that they're still being expected to comply with the judgement against them for breaking the law. Then they accuse the people judging them of breaking the law.

Microsoft is more powerful than governments, and the governments don't seem much to care.

Re:Truly amazing

[Jim_Callahan]

If you've ever known someone with an outstanding debt they _really_ don't want to pay, you'll know that this behavior is by no means unusual, from private citizens on up. I've heard the legal juggle involved is even easier in Europe, but I have no way to verify this.

Re:Truly amazing

[PSGInfinity]

It's not that they don't care, but rather, that they grudgingly accept their place in the pecking order. The empires are now called "Corporations", the Kings, CEO's. And nation-states have been reduced to bit players in a global drama. And part of that drama includes Microsoft demanding fealty to rules that it ignores. Bit players, plotting against the emperor. And peasants desperately trying to avoid being squashed. History doesn't repeat itself, but it does rhyme...

Re:Truly amazing

[oliverthered]

Companies aren't allowed to use 'threatening' tactics to obtain money, and any discrepancies or vagueness in a contract always goes to the customer and not the provider.

Since most companies use threatening tactics and have vague contracts it's fairly easy to wriggle in the EU.
In the UK (more or less) all you have to do is offer a payment that will pay of the debit over a number of years and the creditor doesn't have a leg to stand on.

There are also some new bankruptcy laws coming into place that mean people can declare themselves bankrupt very easily and have all the debits written off.

Microsoft accuses EU of collusion?

[Anonymous Coward]

Hey, Bill and Steve, how's it feel to be on the receiving end this time?

Well then...

[Anonymous Coward]

The enemy of my enemy is my friend.

Nothing new, move along!

[Gadzinka]

We have similar case in Poland right now:

A killer sentenced for 25yrs in prison is suing for libel the parents of his victim. He raped and killed their daughter and when they publicly told (after he was convicted) that he is "animal" he sued them for libel.

Robert

PS Since he is currently in prison, w/o any source of income, the state will provide him an attorney for free, while his victims will have to pay for an attorney. Hope that MS won't get free legal advice.

Re:Nothing new, move along!

[greenrd]

Ouch. I'd hate to be the attorney for him. I'd guess you'd have to be a complete psycho (like that guy obviously is) to even consider being his attorney for that lawsuit.

Still, there's no shortage of those in the legal profession.

Re:Nothing new, move along!

[Cal Paterson]

Poland? I had completely forgotten!

My heart bleeds...

[JustNiz]

Of course Microsoft aren't guilty of those tricks at all

Rivals?

[Snap E Tom]

Microsoft has rivals?

It's true

[OriginalArlen]

We're all in it together.

More about US than EU

[Anonymous Coward]

Complaining about the EU isn't going to get Microsoft anywhere within the EU. I think they are looking for a post-hoc rationalization about EU decisions to reduce the impact of those decisions domestically and in emerging markets.

Re:Outcome

[flimflammer]

I strongly agree.

Please do it

[Anonymous Coward]

Please do it, Bill. Please. Please legally take on the one of the few entities on this planet which actually has more dough to spend than you do. Please. Make me laugh.

Translation:

[Anonymous Coward]

I've clearly never written any sort of program, so I'm just going to make a guess about how things are done and bash Microsoft, because really a government crapping on 300 million people is awesome as long as they are smokers or Microsoft customers.

Also, I need Karma for my GNAA trolling.

This just in...

[coastin]

Drinking water at MS headquarters found to be contaminated with LSD.

Re:This just in...

[SimonInOz]

Actually I think Microsoft could improve a lot if its employees took a little LSD.

No hang on that's not me speaking - it's Steve Jobs ... "I
wish him [Bill Gates] the best, I really do. I just think he and Microsoft are a bit narrow. He'd be a broader guy if he had dropped acid once or gone off to an ashram when he was younger."

        * Interview, New York Times (1997)

http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Steve_Jobs

All and none.

[Anonymous Coward]

Today's corporations are multinational. They are also above the law everywhere... didn't the EU get the memo?

Re:Gasp! Shock! Horror!

[Jim_Callahan]

I think the objection here is more that the relationships between the consulted companies and the commission were cloak-and-daggered instead of being open to public(including Microsoft)'s scrutiny. Just because their motivation is to protect their company's interests doesn't mean that they don't have a valid point.

Alternatives to ./ ?

[CarpetShark]

Documents are not theories. If you despute them, prove it.

More importantly, this place is becoming FUD Central. Suddenly lots of commenters are pro-microsoft, even when it makes no sense. It was always provocative, but never this non-sensical until recently. I'm convinced Slashdot has been targetted by Microsoft in a PR offensive.

Could someone please point me to sane /. alternatives?

Re:Alternatives to ./ ?

[Tony Hoyle]

Technocrat is OK.. a bit quiet (but that's a good thing IMO).

Re:Alternatives to ./ ?

[st1d]

>>>I'm convinced Slashdot has been targetted by Microsoft in a PR offensive.

Wow, they really are scraping the bottom of the barrel, huh? :)

Re:Alternatives to ./ ?

[Anonymous Coward]

Not to mention the articles on Origami already.

Illegal Software

[Ecko7889]

What happens if Microsoft doesn't get consent from the EU? Does Microsoft Windows become illegal to sell, produce, or distribute in the EU? I guess it's not really clear in the whole argument between EU and Microsoft, what they are truly fighting for...

Re: Sigh...

[Jim_Callahan]

Haha, you got a +5 informaitve. Apparrently the mods broke their joke-o-meter today.

Conspiracy Theories?

[Anonymous Coward]

Conspiracy Theories? The Official response from Microsoft may interest you...

Rape Defendant Accuses Court of Collusion!

[geekwithsoul]

Dateline: European Union, March 2

Alleged rapist Mike Roesopht and his lawyers today said that the judge presiding over his trial has been acting in collusion with his accusers. "Everyday the judge just flaunts the fact that he's listening to my accusers and their technical experts" Rowsoft is reported as saying. When asked if the judge in the case had been ignoring Mr. Roesopht, he replied that "Well, there was a bunch of evidence that he asked for, but I didn't feel like giving it to him. After all, then he'd convict my ass. And besides, the evidence is mine, all mine!" Immediately after this statement, the defendant got up and started throwing chairs.

Re:Rape Defendant Accuses Court of Collusion!

[mgblst]

So Microsoft, have you stopped beating your wife yet?

Why i sorely want microsoft to lose this

[Xiph]

I'm a citizen of Denmark, a European Union country. I'm a computer science student and game developer.
It's my belief that if the EU loses this, EU will be prevented from properly acting as a market watchdog in the future, hampering competition on european markets.
Read it likes this: it will cost me money and oppertunities.

It is also my belief that if Microsoft Corp. loses this, it will cost them money, and seeing as I'm a software developer I like that prospect, due to the way Microsoft Corp. works to stiffle innovation by promoting software patents (here i should also bash ibm, sun and others!).
[blah] While it is my view that software patents CAN be implemented in a decent way, I think that our current patent system is not up to speed with modern society, most importantly patent durations are WAAAY too long.[/blah]

Hopefully a big slap on the wrist of Microsoft Corp. will increase my chances of having success as a computer scientist.

Re:Why i sorely want microsoft to lose this

[Anonymous Coward]

You need to think a bit differently then, you won't become a "computer scientist" when you graduate, it will be a developer, programmer or engineer. You should also not state "increase my chances of having success" if Microsoft are fined, being a good developer (etc) is about being able to adapt to different technologies and fast. If you're cutting your nose to spite your face by not working with Microsoft technologies then you won't go very far in this world. Sorry, but it true - the IT scene moves very fast.

I'm a (lead) developer of 7 years since graduation.

Re:Why i sorely want microsoft to lose this

[Anonymous Coward]

If you're cutting your nose to spite your face by not working with Microsoft technologies then you won't go very far in this world.

Don't generalize. I don't do Windows and I'm doing fine as the IT Department Manager for a Broker/Dealer.

FreeBSD, Solaris, Java, and Sql have done me well so far.

Re:Why i sorely want microsoft to lose this

[TrancePhreak]

As a game developer you should be ashamed. MS provides lots of technology with explanations and papers to the community. They also develop libraries that give game developers a leg up when making their applications. Libraries, samples, thorough documention, testing and performance tools. They also host lots of talks and sessions to teach developers about technology that is forthcoming.

Re:Why i sorely want microsoft to lose this

[fejta]

Thanks for letting us know that Denmark is an EU country.

Re:Why i sorely want microsoft to lose this

[Xiph]

As a game dev, i do appriciate what ms does in on that scene, but i prefer OpenGL to DX, even though microsoft managed to hamper the OGL group from developing the standard for a long while.
My biggest problem with microsoft is that they work pro-software patents. It annoys me so much more even than their stronghand approach to the software market.
I'm also aware that microsoft does more for game dev than dx, but dx is their major effort. And the other things they do rely on dx. which unfortunately is os specific. Which is also more or less the sole reason for me using my windows partition more than any other. I refuse to feel shame. I admit MS does A LOT to support gaming and game dev. Unfortunately they do one REALLY REALLY bad thing to all small software companies.

Re:Why i sorely want microsoft to lose this

[TrancePhreak]

The OpenGL group was not delayed because of MS. It was delayed because of the slow process they take to incorporate changes. If anything, MS helped them as GLSL was based on the already available HLSL.

Re:Why i sorely want microsoft to lose this

[Xiph]

i guess we have to disagree on this... I'm currently reading up on the meeting minutes. but as far as i remember, the people representing microsoft, basically said everything was a bad idea. I'll have to get back on this, but i just got back from a night of drinking, so it might take two days :P. so it might have to be made a journal entry. That being said, what you mentioned is not unimportant. My primary guide is science, so fact means a lot to me, and i won't let this hang unanswered in the ether. besides, who says i haven't been mislead

EU lol

[Anonymous Coward]

The EU is about has effective as the UN.

Well written...

[packetmill]

..for a movie script. Just read this part : "..and Microsoft's adversaries were secretly collaborating.. " Where on earth would you read a line like that, outside of cinema? I was about to promise myself not to make fun of MS doing the month of march, for a break, now look what the boneheads went and did.

Pfffff

[Bazzalisk]

The European Commission can essentialy do Whatever it wants. Remember that microsoft.

Re:Pfffff

[SSCGWLB]

Really?
EU in turmoil after [entire] executive commission resigns
If they can do whatever they want, why did they resign? Curious.... Could it be because they can't do whatever they want?!??!

*ding ding ding*. Next!

~nate

Re:Pfffff

[Tony Hoyle]

There's a certain amount of accountability but not a huge amount... they can still throw a hissy fit if they want to. In *theory* as they're all nominated by member states (who are elected governments) they're accountable - in practice there's too much distance between the voters and their nomination for that accountability to be meaningful.

The parliament can throw a spanner in the works but there's no appetite for giving them more power (ironically those most against this are those that often complain that the EU is undemocratic..) - they for example killed the software patent bill in the teeth of commission opposition.

Re:Pfffff

[Anonymous Coward]

The commission can act freely within the powers granted to them by EU treaties, but if they overstep those bounds, they can be punished by the EU courts. That's why the EU competition authority has been extra careful to follow all their rules to the point in this Microsoft case, but it looks like Microsoft finally found a slip-up they can use to overturn the ruling. Even if they can't overturn the ruling, this will likely be enough for them to tie up the case in the appeals process for years to come.

Call it collusion or consultation

[Martin Spamer]

Call it collusion or consultation, it is perfectly normal and proper for the investigators to seek 3rd party perspectives on the evidence from a range of experts, including at least, techical, legal, economic, and market experts. This is perfectly proper and normal in EU investigations.

To believe Microsoft was unaware this is proper and normal would require a belief that Microsoft is incompetent and had incompentent legal experts.

Microsoft knows this normal and proper and is trying to spin things in a more favourable light.

Re:Call it collusion or consultation

[amliebsch]

Yes, but there is no reason for some of those meetings to be (a) undocumented or (b) secret, which is what MS is apparently alledging.

Re:Call it collusion or consultation

[dreadclown]

So, by analogy, there is no reason for MS's APIs to be (a)undocumented or (b)secret?

Re:Call it collusion or consultation

[DerWulf]

except that the EU commision in essence assumes the role of a court of law that enforces it's jurisdiction by violence. The guys at microsoft wrote an operating system that everybody is completely free to not use. Tell me, for all code you've written could you provide complete API documentation that would allow people seeking your blood to create interoperable programs?

Re:Call it collusion or consultation

[dreadclown]

Yes, though that is entirely irrelevant.
Indeed, we are free to not use their OS, but are we free to not interoperate with it? A project I worked on some years back had a major setback as some clients used an MS proxy server, and due to the NTAuth protocol being undocumented at that time, we were unable to interoperate with it legally.

(As to law and violence, this is still the prerogative of government, but MS do not face the threat of violence, but financial punishment, just as they do each time they are sued in the USA).

Re:Call it collusion or consultation

[amliebsch]

What a ridiculous comeback. That's like saying that we should abolish the fourth and fifth amendments because, well, if the court is required to be transparent and responsive, then by analogy, there's no reason for defendants not to be transparent and responsive!

Turn about is fair play

[ROOK*CA]

"they show that the commission, the trustee, and Microsoft's adversaries were secretly collaborating throughout the fall of 2005 "

Sux when your opponents use your own tactics against you, huh Bill? :)

Re:Gasp! Shock! Horror!

[CodeBuster]

So in the process of determining whether Microsoft has actually produced documentation that meets the requirements, the EU checks with other companies! Oh, the horror of collusion!

Alright, but since the review process between the commission and the companies is not open to public review and scrutiny how does Microsoft know that their competitors in Europe are not simply saying that the documentation is useless no matter what it actually contains to spread FUD about Microsoft and buy time for themselves to either grab market share or play catch up? The temptation is certainly there for those companies involved in the review process.

Re:This is irrlelevant

[99BottlesOfBeerInMyF]

EU is trying to prop up OSS and European businesses because they dont[sic] like the idea that an American Company is the only productive option... Yes yes before i get flamed, i know linux has its place. But honeslty[sic] i have only seen people be productive with Linux in delevoper[sic] and server applicaitons[sic].

Do you even know what this whole thing is all about? MS broke the law by using their monopoly on desktop OS's to give an unfair advantage to their Web browser, media player, and server OS. That last item is the one of note here, since after they were convicted they agreed to fully document all the secret interfaces between their server and desktop OSs by which they were gaining market share with their inferior server OS. Market share gained because it had illegal advantages in dealing with their desktop OS.

This isn't about punishing MS for having a monopoly, it is about punishing them for using that monopoly to force inferior products upon consumers at overly high prices. This is about Windows Server editions being used over cheaper, more reliable, more secure, and more versatile Linux and Unix servers simply because they know the secret handshakes to talk to Windows desktop and all the features built into it.

To put it simply, MS broke the law and they did it knowingly. They built their whole business plan around breaking the law and betting that the courts would not punish them enough to make up for the profit. So far they have been completely correct and now after having been convicted they are trying to weasel our of one of the proscribed punishments. Hopefully they will not succeed.

Now i will sit back and watch the flaming begin because i ...gasp... defended an evil american corporation Microsoft on slashdot...what the hell was i thinking. Freedom of speech is an illusion your audiance[sic] gives. You can only freely say what they want to hear or they will string you up denounce you for having opposing views.

Hahahahaha! You seem a little unclear on the concept of free speech as well. You're free to say whatever you want, but anyone is also free to reply with why they disagree with you. Otherwise it would be free speech only for you and not for anyone else, huh? Anyway, what does the fact that they are an American company have to do with it? Most of the companies that benefit from this and are advising the EU are also American. Your nationalism is badly misplaced

Next:

[twitter]

GWB says EU possesses weapons of mass destruction

Re:Next:

[bhiestand]

Next: GWB says EU possesses weapons of mass destruction

Yeah, but that would be true.

Re:Next:

[Anonymous Coward]

Sometimes when you try humour, it doesn't quite work out.

Re:Next:

[maxwell demon]

Even more: A lot of them are in France!

Re:Next:

[Aussie]

>Next: GWB says EU possesses weapons of mass destruction

Yeah, but that would be true.

Yeah, but that doesn't mean he wouldn't be surprised :)

Re:Next:

[twitter]

that doesn't mean he wouldn't be surprised :)

or that he could find them.

Re:Next:

[petermgreen]

no the EU as a whole doesn't, two of the countries that make it up do.

Mod parent up!

[Fanboy Troy]

Conspiracy Theories? The Official response from Microsoft may interest you...

Oh my God people, plz mod parent up and grand parent Troll. Carpetshark is absolutely right about Slashdot being targetted by Microsoft in a PR offensive, It's more than obvious...

Re:Gasp! Shock! Horror!

[meosborne]

Well, that is one reason why the person who made the determination that the documentation was not adequate was from a list provided *by Microsoft*.

Exchange backdoor....

[slashname3]

And they know this because they examined the logs from the exchange servers being used to send the communications. When push comes to shove it will be interesting to see if they produce the actual messages.......

The NSA has nothing on Microsoft....

There is a foot missing somewhere

[marcosdumay]

Ok, now MS is accusing a sovergein state (ok not quite a state yet, but it doesn't matters) of collusion! Wow, I never thought I'd see something like that happening. You know what? If EU decides to favor other companies, because they are not monopolies, or because they are local, it can do that. Hell, if the EU representatives decide to favor other companies just because they want, it is their problem, MS has nothing to do with that.

Re:There is a foot missing somewhere

[Forbman]

Well, it's collusion when its competitors lobby more successfully (i.e., throw more $$$ at regulators/law writers), then what do we call Microsoft and how its unfavorable US antitrust decision basically was cast to the wind when the change in command essentially ordered the Dept of Justice to stop pursuing the case (because...well...Microsoft and associates probably threw enough $$$ at the Republican Party for it to take notice and reward said "donations"?)

Re:There is a foot missing somewhere

[Anonymous Coward]

Yup, like we do in Guantanamo bay.

Re:Gasp! Shock! Horror!

[amliebsch]

The meetings should still be documented. They should still be open. This is akin to the use of "secret" evidence or witnesses, which I doubt most slashdotters would support (especially if the "evil" U.S. does it). It's the tactics of a kangaroo court.

Interesting...

[Anonymous Coward]

...that if the US or Europe says "please play nice and let other people have a piece of the pie" Microsoft will fight it tooth and nail.

--But when China says "help us become the next Soviet Union" they just say "Yes sir. Right away sir."

I'm with M$

[Dmack_901]

This seems to be a common European problem, and increasingly American one too; improper logic. Sure M$ is a big company, sure they make a ton of money, sure you think they're evil, but they still have a right to equal protection under the law. It's for the same reason we tried Nazi war criminals before punishing them; Why we try Saddan before killing him. I'm not sure who's right or wrong, but they've got a right to be treated fairly.

On a less firmly planted ground, I hope MS wins. Not even because they may be right, but because I hate the EU and their Anti-Capitalist idealogy. They take capital power from their people, the take arms from their people, they censor their people(ok, not as much as NorthKorea or China, but still), they take every means of rebellion so as presumably they may enslave their people. Worst of all, it isn't a conspiracy but an insidious thought process that utterly lacks any spine whatsoever to the extent that they enslave themselves for "protection", or "welfare", or "healthcare", or " 'stable' government-run utilities".

Hell, I hope M$ wins, makes hundreds of billions, forms an army with the money, and invades europe. Or maybe prioritieze better and go after Iran and the Dictatorships first... but that's a little OT

Re:I'm with M$

[gd23ka]

Sure M$ is a big company, sure they make a ton of money, sure you think they're evil, but they still have a right to equal protection under the law. It's for the same reason we tried Nazi war criminals before punishing them; Why we try Saddan before killing him. I'm not sure who's right or wrong, but they've got a right to be treated fairly.

You know, that kind of naivety disgusts me. First of all, the so-called "International Military Tribunal" in Nuremberg was the same kind of farce as the "Court" they're trying Saddam Hussein in. There's a word in German for a travesty like that and that is "Siegerjustiz" - the justice dealt out by the victor. It would have been just to have hanged Churchhill right next to Ribbentrop for turning down the peace offer that was relayed by Rudolf Hess, Arthur Harris the commander of the RAF next to Streicher for ordering the thousand bomber air strikes against Dresden, Cologne, Pforzheim etc. killing at least a million of innocent civilians and Eisenhower next to Kaltenbrunner for ordering hundreds of thousands German POWs to be systematically starved and withheld water and medication until they died in the Rheinwiesen camps.

Re:I'm with M$

[DerWulf]

I'm a german and I'd have no problem if every last one wehrmacht-soldier would have been put to death. And your logic is faulty: imprisoning a kidnapper is not kidnapping just as killing a murderer is not murder. Germany didn't get the kind of punishment it so well deserved. The allies even showed mercy.

Re:I'm with M$

[Thorsten Timberlake]

You know what's the worst about this "insidious thought process" we're all suffering over here? We don't even feel enslaved! Infact, I didn't know I was a slave before you told me. Amazing isn't it. I didn't know I was being censored either... But I do recall a case from the U.S. about this guy with anti-war stickers on his car being bullied by Homeland Security Officers(tm). Otoh, the prime minister of my country, with whom I do not usually agree, is currently standing up for freedom of speech.

Anyway, you're a troll so let's just cut through the crap and get to the important stuff...

You're pretty fucking ignorant, you know that? Try too look all all the shades between black and white some day. But wait, there's more! There are real colors too! (But then, colors are a load of hippy crap anyway, I suppose)

Re:I'm with M$

[gd23ka]

You know what I never understood - how can anyone hate their own country so much? Legally I am a foreigner when in Germany but as a Volksdeutscher (ethnic German) I have seen and felt love for that certain beauty that surrounds both country and people. I don't pretend to know what goes on in the heads of people like you - but deep down in your hearts there's a huge cauldron of pure seethingly hot hatred and very little else. You want to fill our streets with whatever both fate and purpose desire to drop off at the borders and hand them the keys to our homes and property, all in the name of some highly self abusing future multicultural utopia. Habe recht vielen Dank, Nestbeschmutzer, aber wir haben eine andere Vorstellung von der Zukunft Deutschlands.

Re:I'm with M$

[DerWulf]

You rethoric shows that you like to substitute propaganda for knowledge. "Ethnic german" applies to many very different people and peoples (anglo-saxons, goths etc. see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Germanic_peop les) that it has become pretty useless as criteria of distinction. A redneck Texan can be as much an "ethnic german" as the petit french man.

But thats besides the point. From your post I get the impression that you believe that a german can only love his country if he embraces WW2, the holocaust and the facist pigs that started both. Given this definition, yes I do hate my country. More to the point, I think that the gedankengut you seem to share should have died 50 years ago. What better way to kill ideas than to chop the heads of people of who believe in them?

Re:I'm with M$

[gd23ka]

Oh please spare me another spoonful of canned opinion, will you! One wonders why people like you are always so painfully predictable? First off, nobody has a problem with people qualifying for ethnic German status, least of all the extreme right right. You will be extremely surprised to note how even the farthest fringe of the extreme right has evolved into an international community. Few and far in-between is the - I must say - cretin who will disregard an individual only based on a passport fate has dealt him.

That out of the way, let's take a look at why you lump WW2 in together with what a documentary on ABC in the late 70s called "The Holocaust" evolved to and add a few facist pigs to round things off. Let's take a look at teach in turn.

WW2 was inevitable the day the so-called "Treaty of Versailles", was forced upon the Reich both by France and by proxy by Britain. The nearly complete demilitarization and economic destruction of the Reich along with the occupation of the Saare territory the contract entailed was the severest blow possible to German prosperity and self-esteem. Looking at it from this angle, WW2 and German expansionism is then little surprising. If anything however came as a surprise in WW2 then it was the leniency with which the Reich dealt with former Foes like the french, in full accordance with the vision of a pan-Germanic Europe. Hundreds of thousands of true volunteers from France, Belgium, the Netherlands and many other European countries followed Germany's call to arms and served in the Wehrmacht or the SS. Peace was offered to the British over and over culminating in Rudolf Hess's heroic flight across the channel for a last ditch attempt at peace, yet no matter what, the British were determined to destroy any opposition to their interests in Europe once and for all. Thanks to Churchill, Truman, Stalin and later Eisenhower WW2 turned into a butcherhouse beyond comparison as most of the casualties in WW2 were ethnic Germans - as you yourself have noted - no matter what their nationality was.

As far as the Holocaust is concerned, I wont go into that very much because of late many of its detractors have been sentenced or are still standing in front of German courts for their research. Staying this side of legality let me say this much: It is an odd truth that requires the hand of the law to steady itself when it should be able to stand by itself.

Last but not least that leaves us with your fascist pigs. Socialism, regardless whether it is marketed under the label of Fascism or National-socialism, is a demeaning Weltanschauung that devaluates and degrades the indivual. Those who advocate it, no doubt hope to find themselves in a later position of power in the party.

So you see, mein Bester, few people who think things through side with the extremes of an issue. Let me lead out by citing Terence McKenna (while discussing a Yin-yang symbol): It's not the White and it's not the black, it's the interspace, the edge that is the most interesting.

Re:I'm with M$

[DerWulf]

> Few and far in-between is the - I must say - cretin who will disregard an individual only > based on a passport fate has dealt him.

And disregarding somebody based on his ethnicity is A-OK?

> stuff about WW2

So WW2 was inevitable anyways, caused by victors of WW1 who, suprisingly didn't start WW1. Uh oh! Also you seem to think it was a righteous struggle against ... western imperialism? Churchil and Eisenhower who where the true Nazis? Please, do tell me.
Oh yeah, I almost forgot. Offering a termed surrender when your whole conquer-the-world plan has gone down the shitter is so heroic! You truly are some sort of brown-shirt genuis!

> stuff about the holocaust

Yeah, it's pretty wrong that germany will put you to trail for voicing an opinion. But you see, this is part of the attitute that made germany so uniquely suitable for fascim: unquestioning faith in authority and almost zero regard for individual rights.

Have you been to Dachau and Auschwitz? Have you seen the photos and films of cargo trains full with nacked, starving and sick people arriving there? Fake you say? Let's hear your proof (and be reminded: extraordinary theories demand extraordinary proof).

>stuff about ying yang

You know, if white is sane and black is bat-shit-insane I'd rather be clear in the white.

Re:I'm with M$

[gd23ka]

> And disregarding somebody based on his ethnicity is A-OK?

Recognizing the differences between the various races of the species of man is not disregarding the individuals.
Actually, we should capitalize on the natural distinctions between men to give and take from each according to
his or her abilities.

> "stuff about the holocaust"

I agree this far that stifling thought, deliberation and research about the Holocaust is counter-productive. I'm not
going to allow myself to be prosecuted for Article 130 of the German Penalcode which is why I wont discuss this further.

>stuff about ying yang

>You know, if white is sane and black is bat-shit-insane I'd rather be clear in the white.

I guess you didn't get what McKenna was saying.

Re:I'm with M$

[Anonymous Coward]

First, it's spelled "ideology"

Secondly, EU governments may not be perfect, but you have your head firmly up your ass. Yeah, right we must all be brainwashed because we don't think like you do, if you can call what you do "thinking" after reading your other posts. You think better, yet you spout simplistic right-wing rhetoric non-stop. People like you give America a bad name.

Re:I'm with M$

[jesterpilot]

because I hate the EU and their Anti-Capitalist idealogy Where's that country? Where is it?!? I wanna move in!

Um...

[flyinwhitey]

"Well at least you know how to spell that. How about going for a six letter word next.
Ignoramus."

Ignoramus is a nine letter word.

Re:This is irrlelevant

[Anonymous Coward]

Try and write a wordprocessing document, or do any spreadsheet work. you are flat hosed.

-----

you know, i was wondering why the keys didn't produce their respective letter when i did word processing. now i know, it is b/c i use linux!

ps - i don't think i want to be anything close to your definition of "productive." -lol-

Re:This is irrlelevant

[wap911]

You must be about 16 years old of have the memory of jar of peanut butter. I was only about 20 years ago that M$ and Orfice were also *immature*. Just how do you think M$ got to where they are today? hint, hint...it was not from playing nice. So is rape ok since the sex was good [or is that you got sex] Lets see if you can go rape everyone on your block and then *get off* the charges. They have been found guilty as charged and now have not complied with the penality. What happens if you get a DUI [drunk driving] along with killing someone in the accident? Think you can tell the judge you just do not feel like going to jail ---didn't think so..........

Poor Microsoft....

[WhiteWolf666]

Poor little Microsoft. Someone's out to get them; nay, some organization is working with other companies to get them! Colluding, even!

Microsoft likes to through that term around when they don't have any good arguments. The "independent expert" the EU is consulting with was from a short list picked by MICROSOFT. Back in the antitrust trial (the first one), Microsoft accussed the DoJ, Sun, Netscape, and various others that they were "colluding" against Microsoft.

I don't think the EU is doing anything illegitimate, but even if they were, karma is a bitch. Microsoft deserves every bit of shit that comes their way. They've driving many companies out of business (Remember Stacker?) using purely illegitmate tactics. Go look at the Halloween memos. Now, I don't believe that governments should pull crap like this, but I'm not going to shed a tear for Microsoft if they get fucked.

Governments fuck people everyday. Microsoft fucks people everyday. Pardon me while I play the world's smallest violin for Government fucking Microsoft. God knows they've deserved it on a million issues.

Stick to the facts, MS. Demonstrate stop accusing governments of collusion, stop making stupid offers like restrictive source code licenses. Provide standards based interoperability documentation on an easy to license basis, and all of this crap will go away.

Follow the damn EU settlement already.

Here... have another rubber band...

[gd23ka]

No kid, working with "Microsoft technologies" is like wrapping rubber bands around your balls until it make you giggle. No good has ever come of that and it may even make you unfertile. These so-called "Technologies" (Technologies??) are some of the lousiest, zero-fun ways of self-castration as well as to waste time. money, motivation and good wil. Big bucks businesses all use AIX and Solaris for the important stuff. The only thing you're right about is: The IT-Scene moves fast, so if you want to - as you put it - "go far" in this world, start by checking out Solaris 10!

Re:Here... have another rubber band...

[3rdParty]

apparently "balls" are something you've only heard people talk about. Because you've certainly never worked with MS technology and compared their documentation with what you get from other technlogies. MS compares favorably with Sun and Intel, and I am unaware of any other tech company that comes even within shouting distance of those three. MS has reams upon reams of info available on their web site, and if your complaint is you cannot understand it, you should perhaps look within yourself, not point fingers at others for your own failings.

Funny how things are

[protomala]

Recently, here in Brazil, Microsoft was appointed as trustee in a case where the court is set to decide if it's legal for governments (country and states) stablish open-source as default option it it exists as a alternative to proprietary systems. I don't see Microsoft sseing a plot of themselves in this case, do I?

An obligitory Yoda comment...

[Yellow Crane]

"Calling black, the kettle by the pot is."

Hey, it was obligitory for me!

Re:An obligitory Yoda comment...

[Anonymous Coward]

So email it to yourself.

Re:Funny how things are (correction)

[protomala]

Correction by myself: It's not microsoft, but a organization of "companies of software". But sure, here in Brazil those organization as ABES (brazilian anti-piracy org.), those are usually 90% Microsoft funded. Sorry for the mistake, I just rushed a bit in posting.

In other news...

[rice_burners_suck]

... The Microsoft lawsuit against the European Union for collusion, in which Microsoft demanded damages in the form of land, has ended today, with a verdict in Microsoft's favor. After a short transition period, all EU countries will become the property of Microsoft.

A Microsoft spokesperson said the United States will be sued next.

Re:This is irrlelevant

[maggern]

hahaha, typical american to think that europeans are jealous on something you've got. How many times have I not heard that argument?

Your arguments fail because of this simple fact: Selling some good products that most consumers want, does not mean you can abuse market power to sabotage free competition. Its like : "Microsoft's products are the best, so they can do whatever they want and break the law". Don't think so, pal.

your retorical efforts to create sympathy and stop flaming with statements like "Freedom of speech is an illusion your audiance gives." are just plain stupid. You don't need to defend that you're defending MS, plz.

Stop selling to the biggest colluder in the world.

[Nymz]

...because the biggest economy spot is already taken by someone else.

http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/geos/ us.html#Econ

Re:This is irrlelevant

[BarbulaM1]

Would it not be more illegal for Apple to fully include a suit and it being some of the only players, movie makers, and browsers for the platform. Hell Apple gives you Quicktime for videos, but to go full screen they ask you to pay... Yes Windows comes with WMP, but it is fully free and feature compleat, they do not ask for your money afterwards. Wouldn't what Apple is doing be highly illegal? They monopolise their own OS.

I know!

[katpurz]

Man I know!!!!!!! Windows sucks and linux rules!!!!! I love these 'any anti-microsoft stories will do'!! Yes!

Re:Gasp! Shock! Horror!

[Daniel Phillips]

The meetings should still be documented. They should still be open. This is akin to the use of "secret" evidence or witnesses, which I doubt most slashdotters would support (especially if the "evil" U.S. does it). It's the tactics of a kangaroo court.

You obviously haven't spent a lot of time in court. Do you know what "in chambers" means?

Microsoft Accuses European Union of Collusion

[douglaid]

If Microsoft alleges this, let them produce their evidence. Or has somebody already said this?

Re:Gasp! Shock! Horror!

[pembo13]

I think it is safe to say that the communication between EU and Microsoft has the same privacy involved.

Re:This is irrlelevant

[Anonymous Coward]

Too bad the superior products you're using don't seem to have any kind of functional spell checker. Of course it is not the only thing you're missing. Go read some history, boy! You'll learn that the only superiority of Microsoft comes from the marketing and propaganda department which you should, and seem to, know well.

Re:Gasp! Shock! Horror!

[jZnat]

Uh, the Sixth Amendment guarrantees that you will face your accusors and whatnot, so I don't know what kind of shit you're shitting out right now...

Re:This is irrlelevant

[Anonymous Coward]

Wouldn't what Apple is doing be highly illegal? They monopolise their own OS.

They don't use their monopoly to illegally push their products, and that is the key.

Monopolise their own OS... do you even know what you're saying?

Re:Stop selling to the biggest colluder in the wor

[EiZei]

Don't know about this year but thanks to the falling dollar eurozone did go ahead of the US at some point.

Re:Stop selling to the biggest colluder in the wor

[Anonymous Coward]

Is it really?

sw patents ARE curently banned in EU, keep it so

[SgtChaireBourne]

Permanently block software patents: This would greatly reduce Microsoft's power to kill off competitors in the EU through litigation. It would also allow European software companies to use technology patented in the rest of the world, leading to much stronger competition.

...

Software patents are not banned in Europe, but we have people working at it and they're working well.

Ah, but software patents are banned in Europe already. One problem is that the EC (European Commission) doesn't know it's own legislation. Another problem is that the Commission members are appointed and not elected and thus have been full of corruption and scandal to the point of the whole commission being dismissed more than once. It's both of these, but especially the latter, which are the cause of sw patents even being discussed.

One thing you missed in your list of advantages, though, is that patents affect usage, not production or distribution. That makes it not a developer problem, but a problem for anyone planning to use a computer, especially to use it for earning money. Allowing the issue to be turned into a developer-only issue, or even more incorrectly an open source developer-only issue, is really playing into the hands of the pro-sw patent lobby. Such a spin encourages the majority of stakeholders, who are the ones with the most to lose anyway, to not defend their interests and to even dismiss the problem as being relevent only to a marginal group.

However, that said, if you do really want to keep use of computers possible in Europe, then you, your company or institution, your professional organizations, and union chapter need to be providing input to the Commission's public consultation on changes to EU patent law.

The consultation focuses on three major issues:

• the Community patent;
• how the current patent system in Europe could be improved;
• and possible areas for harmonisation.

The Commission's solicitation is about sw patents. Both the topics "Community patent" and "harmonization" have already been used in attempts to bring sw patents to Europe.

The middle part, "how the current patent system in Europe could be improved", in all likelihood, serves as an invitation for pro-sw patent lobbies to bring up the topic. If only their voice is heard, then the outcome of any decisions based on that input is not likely to be beneficial for Europe.

The threat is still present while the European Patent Office continues to grant patents on things otherwise not patentable in Europe.

Re:sw patents ARE curently banned in EU, keep it s

[Jesus_666]

While what you say is generally true there is one problem: While software is unpatentable, the thing usually referred to as "software patents" tries to patent computers running the software, which works under a certain interpretation of the law. Until we have a law clearly stating that software cannot be patented (written in a form that closes as many loopholes as possible) people will keep playing the "computer running XYZ" card.

Lawyer tricks

[Tom]

Nothing to see here, move on. Just standard lawyer tricks - if you can't win based on the merits of your case, try to win based on formalities.

Their Defence Is

[berenixium]

"Chewbacca The Wookie from Star Wars lives on The Planet Endor with The Ewoks. This makes no sense. Why would an 8 foot tall Wookie live with three feet tall Ewoks? This makes no sense! If Chewbacca lives on Endor with The Ewoks, then you nasty EU Politicians and Adverseries must be horribly, horribly Gay for picking on us. It makes no sense! And its not fair on our monopoly, er, business expansion if we have to pay you millions every day just because we're an international Mafioso, erm, family business. It makes no sense!"

"If Chewbacca lives on Endor with The Ewoks then you must never ever fine us. Please!"

"The EU are gay linux-lovers anyway! Let's Amscray to China, Stevie!"

until the law clearly states ...

[SgtChaireBourne]

Until we have a law clearly stating that software cannot be patented (written in a form that closes as many loopholes as possible) people will keep playing the "computer running XYZ" card.

Agreed. That's why I wrote that you, your company or institution, your professional organizations, and union chapter need to be providing input to the Commission's public consultation on changes to EU patent law. The knowledge that computers programs, algorthms, mathematical formulas, business methods and dances are not eligable for patents in the EU can be used for leverage.

people are always on microsoft's back

[Anonymous Coward]

http://arcon5.com/modules.php?name=News&file=artic le&sid=42&tit=Microsoft
http://arcon5.com/modules.php?name=News&file=artic le&sid=45&tit=Microsoft%20Faces%20Korean%20Deadlin e

and there are hundreds more cases similar to these.

hopefully one day microsoft will play fairly! but what are the best alternatives!?! none that i can see

Has to be said...

[2e]

In Soviet Russia, guilty accuse YOU!

-Steven

To All of Europe I say...

[XScB]

Boycott Microsoft!

Oh no we can't! So that's what a monopoly is.

Sure

[twitter]

Next: GWB says EU possesses weapons of mass destruction

Yeah, but that would be true

Now that they have violated the will of the US and it's ally, Microsoft, they are a threat to democracy.

Re:Gasp! Shock! Horror!

[amliebsch]

In fact, IAAL, and I have conducted criminal trials in court. I've been in chambers. And to the best of my recollection, there was never testimony given (expert or otherwise), nor even statements made by non-attorneys without a court reporter being present.

Anti-competitive, huh?

[MaWeiTao]

I find it funny how Microsoft is accussed of unfair business practices by bundling software with their operating system. They add basic functionality to their operating system and its considered anti-competitive. Apple does the same and it's considered a good thing.

Microsoft got so popular specifically because Windows offered what people wanted. It did the job and did it well enough to make people happy. All the anti-competitive practices in the world wouldn't have made them as successful as they've become if it weren't for that simple fact.

Certainly Microsoft isn't without blame. A lot of what they develop is bloated crap. Windows security is a joke. And they certainly have engaged in anti-competitive activities, and should be punished for it.

But lets not be naive here. The South Korean and European rulings absolutely are intended to give domestic corporations a competitive advantage. I'm sure the US would try to do the same is Microsoft were a foreign company. However, the US has taken a traditionally free-market approach, sometimes at the advantage of US corporations and sometimes at their expense. Europe traditionally has put legislation in place to ensure success for European corporations.

The core of the problem here is the consumer. When a system as common as Windows offers everything the average consumer needs they're not likely to look for alternatives. Strip features from Windows and then the consumer is forced to look elsewhere opening up the opportunity to consider the competitor's software. These are the kinds of people get annoyed when they have to download some as simple as a Flash plug-in. They just want stuff to work, they want all the features they need all in one place. I'm sure many will argue that they didn't spend money on a PC, just so that they have to track down a media player online.

And it's not like Microsoft has ever prevented any of us from installing and using a competitor's software. I've had Quicktime since I started using Windows. I used to use Netscape in the early days until it fell behind and Explorer improved. Now I use Firefox. I haven't had a problem yet.

This sort of legislation may be a good thing for some companies, but it comes at the expense of the consumer. They're forced to make decisions about products they don't really understand, in a market that has become a mess where companies fight for mindshare.

And wat will ultimately happen? They'll migrate to the operating system that offers what they need. Right now, the most obvious choice would be Apple and Mac OS X. Then, when they've taken 80%+ share of the market we'll see this same crap start all over again. Suddenly Apple becomes anti-competitive for providing what the consumer wants.

You may absolutely hate Microsoft and Windows, and I've been considering alternatives for a while now. But you can't deny the fact that for a long time Microsoft provided exactly what the average consumer wanted. And I don't think that most people here are your average consumer.

Re:Anti-competitive, huh?

[99BottlesOfBeerInMyF]

I find it funny how Microsoft is accussed of unfair business practices by bundling software with their operating system. They add basic functionality to their operating system and its considered anti-competitive. Apple does the same and it's considered a good thing.

That is because either you don't understand what a monopoly is and why they are forbidden from actions that ruin the market or you're being paid by MS to astroturf here. MS is a monopoly. Apple is not. Thus MS is forbidden from certain actions Apple is not. You see Apple has to make a better server in order to gain market share in the server space. To avoid breaking the law, MS has to do the same thing. But that is hard, so instead MS decided to tie their server and desktop together using secret protocols. This way, even though their server is slower, more expensive, has fewer features, is insecure, and is unstable, it still gains market share because it has the advantage of being tied to the desktop monopoly.

This is illegal for obvious reasons. It hurts the market and consumers end up paying more and getting less. Also, MS thus gains a second monopoly, which they can then use to gain a third and fourth etc., even though their products are inferior. Can you see how this is bad for everyone involved?

MS was convicted in several jurisdictions and part of their punishment was to stop doing it. That is to say, publish all the specs so Apple and Linux vendors and Sun can all compete evenly for the server space and so the cheapest, best product wins. This is what MS is trying to avoid doing. They don't want to have to compete based upon quality and price, they just want consumers to suck it up and pay them for crap.

I have zero sympathy for them too. They broke the law knowingly and in a gamble that it would make them more money than it cost in fines. So far they have been 100% right and made a ton of money by breaking the law. They continue to break the law by bundling and tying new products. It has cost companies billions of dollars, retarded progress in the industry, and put good, innovative companies out of business. Worse it has forced sysadmins around the world to deal with their crappy servers that they need to talk to their desktop.

And MS is laughing all the way to the bank. They need to be more than fined, they need to be broken up. It is the only punishment that will actually stop this crap and put the computing industry back on the path of innovation.

In a related story ..

[Anonymous Coward]

In a related story Mr. Tony Soprano boss of a new Jersey waste management business, today accused the FBI of colluding with a rival in its ongoing RICO investigation of the New Jersey Mob.

(motto: when we bury someone they stay buried).

Mr. Soprano also alleges that the FBI secretly met with wiseguys from the DiMeo Crew, the Longshoremen's Union and and even the Westies. He also states that the investigation is interfering with its legimite tax revenues it extorts er .. accrues from its rivals er .. partners.

(other motto: A partner is a rival we haven't yet got round to completly screwing)

Re:Gasp! Shock! Horror!

[Daniel Phillips]

In fact, IAAL, and I have conducted criminal trials in court. I've been in chambers. And to the best of my recollection, there was never testimony given (expert or otherwise), nor even statements made by non-attorneys without a court reporter being present

Well you will certainly never be my lawyer because you are dense. Can you not distinquish between an investigation and a trial?

About "inappropriate" communication

[josiebgoode]

Et pendant ce temps la, the European Trade Commissioner was drinking champagne with Paul Allen... http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,13509-1580 068,00.html http://politics.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=05/04/ 22/1550217

Re:sw patents ARE curently banned in EU, keep it s

[Alsee]

First note that I am 256% on your side on SW patents.

patents affect usage, not production or distribution. That makes it not a developer problem, but a problem for anyone planning to use a computer

Patent does law have provisions imposing liability for producing and distributing products to commit infringment. I don't recall the exact messy details of the law and the rules for what does and does not constitute liability, but if one does assume software as patentable then yes in general distributing such software will fall under the patent liability laws.

-

Re:This is irrlelevant

[Alsee]

Tip for the cluess wannabe victim:

Freedom of Speech means the freedom against the government pulling out a gun and imprisoning you because it does not like what you said.

When you say something stupid and and other speakers (verbally) string you up denounce you for having opposing views, that is a perfect example of Freedom of Speech. You are free to say what you want, and other people are free to ignore you or disagree with you, or even call you an idiot.

You're nothing but a whining little baby wannabe victim if you claim that your Freedom of Speech is being violated simply because other people also speak and dissagree with you, or even if they also speak so say that they think you're and idiot. Freedom of Speech is the legal right to open your mouth, period.

As for the rest of your post, you clearly fail to understand the vital purpose or operation of anti-trust law. If it were within my power I would gladly tansport you to an alternate universe where anti-trust law never existed. An alternate universe where railroad monopolies were allowed to strangle farmers and small towns. An alternate universe where the Stadard Oil Trust was allowed to monopolize the prices, production, transport, and the entire oil infrastructure nation wide, and to leverage that monopoly into control over the railroad and steel industries as well. An alternate universe where AT&T was allowed to continue to monopolize the entire communications industry, and alternate universe where you could only connect an AT&T computer to the internet (assuming that the internet would even have existed at all). And of course an alternate universe where Microsoft would have had no pesky interference in seizing control of the entire computer industry.

-

People like you should be castrated

[Anonymous Coward]

So you would have had my grandfather killed after surviving the eastern front just because he was conscripted and had to serve?

That's the fscking point!

[jesterpilot]

It's the duty of the EU to make sure European companies get something of a fair chance to compete. Without breaking the monopoly, there will never be many other companies.