Software Engineers Ranked Best Job in America

fistfullast33l writes "CNNMoney and Salary.com have ranked the title of Software Engineer the best job in America. Computer IT Analyst also ranks 7th on the list, placing both technology positions in the top 10. From the article: "Designing, developing and testing computer programs requires some pretty advanced math skills and creative problem-solving ability. If you've got them, though, you can work and live where you want: Telecommuting is quickly becoming widespread.""

Comments

We Still Aren't Trusted to Telecommute

[eldavojohn]

Telecommuting is quickly becoming widespread.

I disagree.

Especially with larger companies, I see it more and more that telecommuting is a frowned upon idea. In fact, most of the articles on telecommuting today are instructions on how to argue with your boss because your boss is going to be the last person that wants you telecommuting.

And that's just for jobs in general. With software engineering jobs, the need to work together on a team is obviously a mandatory requirement. Very few solid and marketable software applications are written by one person. Telecommuting just raises another possible barrier and could compound dynamics and differences among team members. There are also security issues regarding the connection between work and home as well as the problem of productivity being a hard thing to measure when developing software.

Then of course there are home distractions that all managers would worry about.

This is old news to the Slashdot crowd.

In the Fortune 500 company I work for, I don't know anyone who telecommutes. We are encouraged to work with different teams accross the country but they are at company facilities in sub-teams that get together everyday.

If by "widespread" they mean one person does it in New York and one person does it in California then I would agree. If they mean "widespread" by increased frequency and occurance then I would not only disagree with them but adamently argue that it's not accepted as a viable method for getting the job done in the software engineering world.

Software Engineers Ranked Best Job in America

Now that, I can see. I've only been working in the field for a couple years but I can already see that the room for growth in software development is unparalelled. What I mean is that people who start out as grunt developers often have a chance to become a team manager--it depends on how well they can estimate mentally and breakdown a project into tasks (something programmers are required to do in code anyways). More and more I see the manager world developing into two different kinds of managers--engineering managers and business managers. In fact, I have two managers (Office Space is more accurate than you think) with those two titles. One I can talk tech with and the other doesn't know jack about what I'm doing.

Re:We Still Aren't Trusted to Telecommute

[idhindsight]

IAWTP.

I, too, work for a rather large Fortune 500 company, and we have one member that telecommutes. Sure, the rest of us would like to, but it's frowned upon. Even though our one telecommuter is arguably the brightest, most talented, and hardest-working engineer, I still catch little glimmers of phrases along the lines of "anyone know what he's up to?" That type of garbage.

And, no, it's not me (sadly).

Give it another ten years or so, when companies finally get their heads out of their collective asses and realize they can outsource jobs to intelligent people that live in rural areas for a salary somewhere in between what they're paying their silicon-valley people and their Indian script-readers.

Re:We Still Aren't Trusted to Telecommute

[gEvil (beta)]

Telecommuting is quickly becoming widespread.

I disagree.

I beg to differ. I've been doing my job from India for quite a while now. : p

Re:We Still Aren't Trusted to Telecommute

[gEvil (beta)]

Dammit. Valar beat me to it by 3 minutes...

Re: We Still Aren't Trusted to Telecommute

[Black Parrot]

> because your boss is going to be the last person that wants you telecommuting.

Of course. Forgive my cynicism, but what's the fun in strutting and ordering people around, when they're at home where they can ignore both and concentrate on their work?

Re:We Still Aren't Trusted to Telecommute

[neurojab]

as well as the problem of productivity being a hard thing to measure when developing software.

Then of course there are home distractions that all managers would worry about.

If managers are worried about where you are and whether or not you're being distracted, that is a problem in itself. An engineer should be producing measurable results. If you cannot show what you accomplished, and can only show how many hours you worked, you should start looking for a new career :)

In the Fortune 500 company I work for, I don't know anyone who telecommutes.
I also work for a Fortune 500 company, and about 20% of the people I work with telecommute most of the time. Most everyone else at this company telecommutes at least one day a week. I'm talking about mostly Software Engineers here. Once you have all the tools to get your job done at home and effective ways to communicate, it's not difficult.

I still prefer a face-to-face meeting with a whiteboard, but telecommuting isnt' all bad.

Re:We Still Aren't Trusted to Telecommute

[Anonymous Coward]

If telecommuting is so difficult and unusual in your experience then I guess I'm one of the lucky few. I work at IBM in Texas and many of us are allowed (even encouraged) to telecommute. With management approval we can get our broadband line paid for. Some people are asked to let go of their assigned office cubicles and work at home full-time. In most IBM offices there are "guest" cubicle sections for employees who are just visiting or who come into the office for meetings, to use the printers / fax machines / copiers, etc. I forget the exact figures but a good percentage of IBM's employees telecommute. Something like 30%? Maybe more by now. And this isn't just one group or department. I know people in sales, development, tech support, marketing and other areas who do this.

Re:We Still Aren't Trusted to Telecommute

[John Courtland]

I'd say telecommuting is more of a "not everyday" type of thing. At least here, I can telecommute, I just can't do it every day. Perhaps 2 days a week, during a non critical time, I could pull it off. That seems to be acceptable, to me at least, because for most projects you shouldn't need 100% every day, face to face communication between the leads and the grunts. If you do find yourself needing that, then either the grunts aren't understanding the project specs well enough, or they aren't being laid out well enough by the leads. Either that or the leads need to relinquish the leash.

Re:We Still Aren't Trusted to Telecommute

[micromuncher]

You're right. There is this theory that working from home makes one less accountable. I'd love it if reality were as this article suggests; but it's far far far from reality. Out of the 100s of colleagues in the field, only 2 are based out of their homes. 1% of the work force I'd bet.

Re:We Still Aren't Trusted to Telecommute

[Billosaur]

Especially with larger companies, I see it more and more that telecommuting is a frowned upon idea. In fact, most of the articles on telecommuting today are instructions on how to argue with your boss because your boss is going to be the last person that wants you telecommuting.

And that's just for jobs in general. With software engineering jobs, the need to work together on a team is obviously a mandatory requirement. Very few solid and marketable software applications are written by one person. Telecommuting just raises another possible barrier and could compound dynamics and differences among team members. There are also security issues regarding the connection between work and home as well as the problem of productivity being a hard thing to measure when developing software.

I think it depends. When I worked for a major financial firm as an offshore employee (which was pretty funny since I was definitely on shore), they had me working from home 5 days a week to free up cubicle space. Mind you, I worked pretty much on my own, but with the panopoly of telecommuting tools available, it was easy to hold meetings and generally be involved. The downside is the lack of face time -- people tend to forget you exist if they don't see you, and while that's great if you're a programmer and want to get things done, it's lousy from a standpoint of keeping yoru job or moving up, as I found out when they ended my contract rather abruptly.

As to security issues, I think VPN software has matured quite a bit and depending on the precautions you take, remote computing is pretty secure. And as far as team members go, while tyou don't have that instant bonding and camraderie, nor do you have people borrowing your stapler or perring over your shoulder or filling your cube with chit-chat when you're trying to work. I think in the end, it's a mixed bag, and I suspect managers are reticent to let workers telecommute from the fear that they won't be able to control them and see what they're doing at a moment's notice. I suspect a lot of manager's don't really trust their programming staff.

Re:We Still Aren't Trusted to Telecommute

[Khomar]

If by "widespread" they mean one person does it in New York and one person does it in California then I would agree. If they mean "widespread" by increased frequency and occurance then I would not only disagree with them but adamently argue that it's not accepted as a viable method for getting the job done in the software engineering world.

I have to disagree with you as well. I also work for a Fortune 500 company, and we are currently going through the process of moving most of the software engineers to a work-from-home model (hundreds if not thousands of people). It was determined that the cost of maintaining facilities outweighed the downside to development due to less direct communication. Why is this possible? Because technology has gotten to the point where it is increasingly easier to communicate via instant messenger applications, VPN, NetMeeting (yeah, I know, it could stand A LOT of improvements), and even video conferencing. Most of our training is being done on-line, and it is getting much better. A few years ago, setting up a remote office was difficult and expensive, but most of the bugs have been worked out now. The technology is advancing continually making the experience -- nice.

The biggest reason is cost, and it started, I believe, when looking at consulting/contracting work. Given the cost of fly a developer down and pay for their food, housing, and other costs, it became far more advantagious to simply have them work remotely. With VPN technology improving and becoming more stable and reliable, they found that developers could do their work just as well from their office in Denver instead of flying out to New York. In my company, most of the people in my office worked for projects ranging all over the country -- from San Diego to Connecticutt. While there might be groups of three or four on the same project, a lot of people, like myself, were the only ones on a given project from our center. There really wasn't much need for me to be in the office, and my project didn't have the budget to fly me down. As you multiply this scenario across the company, you start to wonder why you even need the office at all.

While I am certain there will be companies that hold out on WFH, there are some very large firms that are embracing it whole-heartedly. Are there drawbacks? Yes, but to many companies, the cost savings make it worth the risk.

Re:We Still Aren't Trusted to Telecommute

[borkus]

Well, at my Fortune 500 employer, 2/8 folks on my team telecommute full-time from out of state and one guy works at home in the morning then comes in for the afternoon. However, telecommuters have to start out full time on-site; no one can telecommute until they've worked for the company for at least 6 months. Also, telecommuting limits some opportunities for growth - you might be a technical lead as a telecommuter, but you won't be a project lead. Managers are all on-site.

Now, we're located in a smaller job market and frequently have to hire folks from out of town if we want experienced people. Flexibility in things like telecommuting and leave gives us a slight edge, especially when the gross salary won't be as much as in a larger market.

Re:We Still Aren't Trusted to Telecommute

[CptNerd]

I believe you're more likely to find telecommuting possibilities if you live in the suburbs and work for smaller or newer companies. The company I currently have a contract with has been set up for telecommuting for several years, now, and I take advantage of it on a regular basis. Some companies have managers that are less paranoid than others, and smaller companies are more likely to experiment with telecommuting since they likely don't have a large infrastructure, and the tech staff can maintain a VPN server easier. Frankly, I would avoid companies > 2000 employees as a rule, just because they become bureaucratic headaches when they get large enough. They tend to hire managers who want to build empires, as well, and those are the ones who have an innate distrust of their employees.

Re:We Still Aren't Trusted to Telecommute

[oudzeeman]

I have an agreement that says I can telecommute one day per week. Some weeks it is difficult to schedule that day if I have a lot of meetings.

One day might not seem like much, but it gets me away from the commute one day and lets me do a few things around the house instead of being stuck an hour away all day

example: I had a problem with my heating system, so I scheduled the maintenance for a work from home day so I could be there when they were working on the furnace. The work from home day worked out good when I bought a new house and had to stick around my house all afternoon for the cable company to establish service

Re:We Still Aren't Trusted to Telecommute

[ezeecheez]

The place I last worked, a lot of people telecommuted, but it was a telecom, so I guess it would have looked bad saying 'the telephone's no good for communication! you have to be here!'

Re:We Still Aren't Trusted to Telecommute

[Atzanteol]

I've been doing my job from India for quite a while now

Hah! I've got one better. Somebody else has been doing my job from India! Oh. Wait...

Re:We Still Aren't Trusted to Telecommute

[weetjerm]

So work for a small company.

I work for a 15 person consulting company that specializes in web applications. Us developers can telecommute all we want, set our own hours, etc.

All it takes is communication, responsibility, transparency, and a good set of development tools.

AIM and email work just fine for most communications, but there are always cell phones or iChat AV if we need to have a longer discussion. But honestly, I never use a phone for my job. I don't have one on my desk in the office, because it is little more than a distraction. I don't talk to clients often, that is what the managers are for. And asynchronus email is better overall for our diverse team -- I don't want to call one developer with a question in the morning because he usually doesn't wake up until noon.

I will admit that face time is important, though. I go in every other day on average. More if I am in the thick of a new project, and less once things settle in that regard and its just code. It does help that the managers are almost always in the office.

Also, we have in-house project management software that tracks project assignments, task status, and trouble tickets. With good use by both managers and developers, there is no question who is doing what, when they are doing it, and how it is coming along. Then it's just a matter of staying focused, and on track.

Finally, open-source tools are a staple. All the software is kept in subversion repositories, and every developer has a local development setup (apache, postgres, php) on their workstation in the office, their laptop, and home office. I can easily switch my physical location without sacrificing the ability to work. We are beginning to rely on unit tests, and perform continuous integration to catch any problems that arise from a team working on a code base in a distributed fashion. It works well, and will only get better as we build up the tools and integrate them on more projects.

I didn't really want to go into software development after school, but I can't deny the benefits. I am self-employed, have no dress code, make good money and set my own hours. I use far less gas than the other people I know, even though I moved to a great house in a rougher, and more remote neighborhood than choosing a nasty apartment complex near the office.

Maybe your company isn't working on software that lend to distributed, open, and orthogonal development? Maybe it is too big for its own good when it comes to developer independence. I hope it isn't a trust issue like you suggest. I certainly wouldn't be ok with employers that don't trust me to know how I can be most effective in my life and job.

Re:We Still Aren't Trusted to Telecommute

[hackrobat]

On a more serious note: I'm a software developer based in Bangalore, India. We do telecommute quite often. The reasoning: if we can work remotely with our colleagues halfway across the globe in a different timezone, why can't we work remotely with our colleagues a few kms. away from home? Most American companies in Bangalore (like Oracle, Adobe, etc.) have flexible timings, and usually no one notices when you're around and not. As long as you're checking in code, answering email, closing bugs and putting out specs in time, you're doing fine.

I often travel to the US and work from there (mostly San Francisco), and I can say that India is going to be defining work trends in the coming years. Americans are very "old school".

Re:We Still Aren't Trusted to Telecommute

[nahpets77]

In support of your statement, I saw a news report a few months ago on TV. There's a state/city in the U.S. (I can't remember where) that started setting up public office space with internet connectivity in the suburbs in order to relieve traffic and increase the quality of life of the inhabitants. They figured it would be cheaper to set this up than to upgrade the transportation infrastructure.

On another note, I know someone who works for a company in the New England area and their company is starting to encourage telecommuting in a big way. I also read somewhere that IBM was starting a push in order to cut the cost of office space.

Re:We Still Aren't Trusted to Telecommute

[Anonymous Coward]

LOL! Quite funny, but it does highlight the issue.

If you are going to allow telecommuting, why would you pay U.S. Salaries?
If you have two engineers who you will never see, doing the same job and one will cost you half as much what would you choose?

Re:We Still Aren't Trusted to Telecommute

[BlueQuark]

America is stuck in 'old school' because American management are a bunch of buttheads, certainly not because developers/SAs/etc wouldn't want to telecommute.

Re:We Still Aren't Trusted to Telecommute

[Gailin]

I figured I would throw in my anectdotal experience. I work for a S&P 500 financial company. My company headquarters are in Milwaukee, and I live in AZ. I have been telecommuting for about a year. Most of my colleagues telecommute a day or so a week as well.

With Sametime, VPN, and conference calls, I am more than able to do my job effectively. It just comes down to person really. I think managers' biggest fears are that with that much freedom people may find it hard to stay on task. Others, like me, find it hard to stop working.

The worst part about being a remote worker... Timezones. I swear, I hate them. Being -2 hours from your corporate office sucks in the morning, but is pretty nice when mid-afternoon rolls around.

Gailin

Re:We Still Aren't Trusted to Telecommute

[Skreems]

The core responsibility on any programming team is never going to go to a telecommuter. There's simply no substitute for talking to the rest of the team face to face, or being able to walk down the hall and bug somebody about a design question. Humans have so many visual communication ques that it becomes impossible to interact on the same level with a voice on a telephone, or even an image on a screen.

That's not to say there won't be more "heads down from home two days a week" types of arrangements, but on the days that you need to be working as a team, you'll be in the office, whether it's 5 years from now, or 500.

Re:We Still Aren't Trusted to Telecommute

[rthille]

Depends on the company I suppose. I've been telecommuting basically full-time at my new job for the last 4.5 months. I drive the 90 minutes into the office once a month and they put me up in a hotel for a few days to a week. My last job I was telecommuting for 6 months (relocated so my wife could attend a particular university) before the next round of layoffs got me. According to my boss's boss (my boss got the ax too), I was in the front of the list because I was remote and due to the merger feelings about telecomuting at the top of the company had changed. All along, my boss had no trouble with me telecommuting and my coworkers had no trouble colaborating with me. Voice over IP with a good headset on all the ends can be a great boon.

Re:We Still Aren't Trusted to Telecommute

[Anonymous Coward]

I agree with the above comment. "Telecommuting is quickly becoming widespread" is totally misleading... it's a CXX-centric thing. Telecommuting business-defined is not just working at home, but working from remote locations. And if you are working multiple locations, you are likely working >45 hours a week since you need to get your work done as well as sync up with departments in different timezone, hence more work than necessary. Instead we are sold the pipe dream by employers and end up either being over-worked or 10% efficient (which ends up in a layoff).

Also, the IP and patent issues throws a wrench in the works, which is why no one works at home at the Fortune 100 company I'm at.

Re:We Still Aren't Trusted to Telecommute

[misfit815]

In my last two jobs, field engineers, project managers, etc, were expected to operate fairly autonomously. I spent about a third of my time at the office, another third at home, and another third on the road. The software development was a limited part of the overall picture (it was more of an EE environment), and when it came along, it was much smaller applications that could be done by one or two people.

If you had people with the discipline to do it (and not just those who *think* they have the discipline), then this scenario worked out (at least from the business perspective). The only non-telecommuter at the most successful partner of my last employer was the office secretary.

I thought I enjoyed the telecommuting part of it, but one aspect overruled everything else. It became harder and harder (especially as a PM) to separate work and home.

Now I'm a 100% developer (or what TFA calls software engineer). Telecommuting is definitely frowned upon, and I certainly see the benefits of having everyone here at generally the same time of day within close proximity of each other. I like it better, I'm sure my bosses like it better, and (most importantly) my wife likes it better.

I'll admit, though, that the only thing I don't like about my job is my 30-60 minute commute (and, yes, the standard deviation is >= 15 minutes).

Re:We Still Aren't Trusted to Telecommute

[idhindsight]

Yes, I agree. It's impossible to be truly 100% telecommuting.

My example co-worker comes in for a week or two about three or four times a year.

Re:We Still Aren't Trusted to Telecommute

[fanduboy]

India is different, because most of the work being done in India by its very nature lends itself to remote development. That in fact is the the reason that that work went to India. In US, companies do work that requires them to be agile and continuously innovate in order to be ahead of the market. The dynamics of business and technology change at a very rapid pace, as a result teams need to communicate more closely to understand and resolve tension arising due to rapid pace. For example in my team, as we work on the next version of our product, the team dynamics becomes highly charged, because people working are highly passionate about their ideas and the product, and email/telphone simply does not works as a means of effective communication.

Re:We Still Aren't Trusted to Telecommute

[Anonymous Coward]

And that's just for jobs in general. With software engineering jobs, the need to work together on a team is obviously a mandatory requirement. Very few solid and marketable software applications are written by one person. Telecommuting just raises another possible barrier and could compound dynamics and differences among team members. There are also security issues regarding the connection between work and home as well as the problem of productivity being a hard thing to measure when developing software.

Then of course there are home distractions that all managers would worry about.

So basically you're saying that the very things that get quality software from being written are the things management advocates continuing in lieu of telecommuting. Things like endless meetings, peer review groups, and unwanted personal interaction are what limits software development. All the *good* hackers need quiet time to contemplate and design the software. Perhaps code monkeys benefit from being within shouting distance, e.g. "How do you allocate a linked hash of widgets??!", but I consider software chop-shops to be beneath the interest of true software engineering. Getting amateurs to develop large software projects is like herding stupid cats, with results varying from disappointing to catastrophic.

You want absolute proof that telecommuting works wonders? Open source.

Re:We Still Aren't Trusted to Telecommute

[Anonymous Coward]

I often travel to the US and work from there (mostly San Francisco), and I can say that India is going to be defining work trends in the coming years.

If by defining work trends you mean define how to churn out low quality work, you are correct.

Re:We Still Aren't Trusted to Telecommute

[rossifer]

I often travel to the US and work from there (mostly San Francisco), and I can say that India is going to be defining work trends in the coming years. Americans are very "old school".

Be careful that you don't get the selection of US companies you work with confused with all US companies. I have contracted for companies that have extensive offshore dev/qa/analysis efforts and for companies that don't think it makes much strategic sense. The work environment at companies which consider more than just dollars are (predictably) much more interesting, motivating, trusting, etc...

I agree that India is way ahead of the Fortune 500 on how to do software work. So are lots of companies right here in the US. (in my experience, they're usually the ones with very few MBA's on staff)

Regards,
Ross

Re:We Still Aren't Trusted to Telecommute

[OptimusPaul]

You fools... Virtual Reality... as lame as that sounds it's a possible solution, if all us telecommuters could interact with each other via some sort of virtual means nobody would have to leave their homes. But I do agree to a point, there are so many advantages to face to face interactions... but isn't it great to get away from that every once and a while?

Re:We Still Aren't Trusted to Telecommute

[aminorex]

Telecommuting is by far the most efficient way to organize and manage a productive software team. But older managers don't know how to manage distributed groups, so it's not feasible to operate a telecommuting group with a dinosaur at the helm. Moreover, it is a terrible mistake to try to run a mixed group, partially centralized and partially distributed, because it creates a split culture, and nobody can get anything through that impedance mismatch.

I've been telecommuting since 1990, and there's no way I would sacrifice my life and my career for an office job.

Re:We Still Aren't Trusted to Telecommute

[aminorex]

There is no substitute for physical presence when the team is centralized. When the team is physically distributed, however, an efficient flow is quickly found, and the productivity of the project increases dramatically.

Attempting to run a team split between a centralized subculture and a distributed subculture is an art which I do not think anyone has yet mastered. But entirely distributed teams routinely operate highly efficiently and productively.

Re:We Still Aren't Trusted to Telecommute

[Pxtl]

What's the importance of face-to-face? So you can see their eyes? So you can doodle out diagrams and read them? To me, those are technological limitations that have been solved, and simply haven't become affordable enough yet. If each team member had a giant networked interactive whiteboard/picturephone to communicate with, I think you'd have all the ameneties of in-person meeting available.

Re:We Still Aren't Trusted to Telecommute

[KlomDark]

Yah, but VR always makes Yoda look really small.

Re:We Still Aren't Trusted to Telecommute

[websensei]

... [I] adamently argue that [telecommuting is] not accepted as a viable method for getting the job done in the software engineering world.

Speaking from personal experience (I'm a software engineering manager / former principal software engineer for a profitable privately-held Boston-area marketing company with about 60 engineers on staff, roughly 200 employees total) -- I completely disagree.

I work from home 2 or 3 days a week. Two of my developers work out of Bangalore. My local guys are allowed to work from home pretty much at will (which amounts to roughly 1/2 the time). With email, IM, and phone, the reduction of time wasted commuting, and the longer hours folks (myself included) end up putting in when the work/home boundaries are thus blurred, everyone wins. When there are certain kinds of important meetings, sure, folks within commuting range are expected to drive in. But the job satisfaction, efficiency, etc gained by this flexibility has been an unqualified success. Stuff gets done, and we all communicate well.

Does this anecdote imply telecommuting is widespread? Not necessarily. But given how many of us do it at my workplace, and how well it works for us, I'd be surprised if this weren't part of a larger trend.

Also FWIW our offshoring of some jobs is likely a factor in telecommuting acceptance here. Given the VPN / security issues addressed in supporting remote staff in India, simply piggybacking on that infrastructure (even tho I'm only 45 miles from the office) is a nonissue. /$0.02

Re:We Still Aren't Trusted to Telecommute

[LaCosaNostradamus]

Firstly, telecommuting (TC) is a scam perpetuated upon the news media. TC is being primarily used by the management class to (1) avoid work for certain politically-connected managers, or (2) overwork managers by making them constantly available (hence, constantly "at work").

Secondly, a lot of TC-able jobs have been realized not by making them TC, but by offshoring and outsourcing them.

You heard a lot about TC in the 1990s. It just didn't happen. Managers were the primary class of employee who were able to take advantage of it. Most of the workforce that could apply for it then as now are still forced to drive to work and be directly supervised.

Re:We Still Aren't Trusted to Telecommute

[CarnivoreMan]

A peril of telecommuting for the employee is if you can telecommute 100% of the time, someone in india can do your job also... and for a lot less money. I wouldnt push your ability to do EVERYthing remotely... just maybe portions.

Re:We Still Aren't Trusted to Telecommute

[LaCosaNostradamus]

It makes you wonder, doesn't it? All those years of designing, testing, distributing and marketing collaborative apps, and we STILL avoid using them for the most part in IT organizations. When the designers of a product don't see much point in using it, one has to seriously question the original assertion of utility.

Re:We Still Aren't Trusted to Telecommute

[deadlinegrunt]

"If you have two engineers who you will never see, doing the same job and one will cost you half as much what would you choose?"

A CTO that cost six times more than both combined and knows less than a fraction of either.

Re:We Still Aren't Trusted to Telecommute

[LaCosaNostradamus]

1%? That sounds about right. Telecommuting is the "wave of the future" that will never arrive. Keeping workers at home does save on certain overhead costs, but not only have corporations sought to save on those costs by offshoring (to officed employees in other nations) and outsourcing (to officed employees in other companies), but companies are also authoritarian entities which can't stand to leave many employees unsupervised.

Re:We Still Aren't Trusted to Telecommute

[try_anything]

That's like saying the technological problems of flying cars have been solved. They aren't solved for me until I get my flying car/ideal telecommuting kit.

Plus, everyone is too formal in videoconferences. It isn't human. You can't take a virtual walk together. You have to stay in front of a friggin' camera like a Hollywood actor instead of going to the coffeeshop together and bitching about the boss like normal human beings. It's awkward to interrupt, so no one does it. People sit like statues when they're listening and talk for minutes at a time when they're speaking, even when only two people are on. And when you're done, you don't feel like you've had a break, you feel like you're ready for one.

Maybe those problems that will pass when people get used to it. I'll take a wait-and-see approach.

Re:We Still Aren't Trusted to Telecommute

[bhsurfer]

My brother works for a Fortune 500 and telecommutes. He actually lives about 5 hours away from his "office" in a different state. He does have to go there occasionally (quarterly or so) for meetings, debriefings, etc, but the rest of the time he spends working from home via vpn. I think he's a lucky bastard, myself.

I can *occasionally* telecommute, but my boss is highly suspicious of it. From a work standpoint I think I could work optimally from home 3 days a week with 2 in the office, but they're not buying it. As an aside, my company just got purchased by a Fortune 500 (the ink's still wet on that one) so perhaps my latitude will change in the future, but somehow I doubt it. I think the management style & corporate culture play a large role in the success of telecommuting even when the requirements of the job would easily allow it.

As far as SE being the best job in the country, well, I don't know about that. I have a Master's in Software Engineering and write software for a living (although not at a software company) and I enjoy what I do immensely, but that depends again on corporate culture and management. Our Marketing folks seem to have a pretty good time doing their jobs, and they get paid pretty solid too so I'd have to say that the "best" job is really just the one that you enjoy the most.

Re:We Still Aren't Trusted to Telecommute

[Pxtl]

Because a videoconference is treated as a "meeting". What is needed isn't a videoconference, but a "video-office" - an always-on tool that makes it feel like you're working within a cube-farm and all your coworkers are in the room nearby. That's why I suggest an always-on dedicated large-screen piece of hardware, basically an interactive whiteboard combined with videoconferencing that you leave on in your room - and it keeps windows showing all of your coworker's offices. Yes, it wouldn't be private - but neither is your real-world Cube. Combine that with a palmtop(whiteboard)+phone-like device so you can walk out to your back porch and smoke while you chat if you want to have a "working break" like you describe.

Re:We Still Aren't Trusted to Telecommute

[Anonymous Coward]

At my previous job, it seems that everyone except the technical staff was telecommuting.. sales reps, managers, and even the CEO. As much as I liked coming into the office and interacting with my co-workers, I thought it was unfair that we didn't even have the option to telecommute 1 or 2 days out of the week. And most of us lived more than 20 miles away. (Translation: 1+ hour commute each way in Los Angeles traffic). Communication would not have been a problem either since we had VPN, VoIP phone system, e-mail, instant messenger, and so on. When I asked my manager why we couldn't telecommute, he didn't have an answer.

After browsing through some job sites, it seems that most of the telecommuting jobs are for sales and marketing jobs. Very few of them are for tech related jobs. This makes me wonder if managers think that the tech staff needs to be in the same building as the computers they work on.

Re:We Still Aren't Trusted to Telecommute

[quakeroatz]

So what you're really saying is:
n=1 u=0 stdev=0

Ya don't say!

Re:We Still Aren't Trusted to Telecommute

[radarsat1]

Hm, sounds good. How hard is it for a foreigner to come and get a job there?
I love Indian food. ;-)

Re:We Still Aren't Trusted to Telecommute

[Anonymous Coward]

Yeah, but with my 'real-world' cube, I at least know when my boss sees me pick my nose

Re:We Still Aren't Trusted to Telecommute

[GoatMonkey2112]

The companies that consider more than just dollars are usually not the same ones that outsource.

Re:We Still Aren't Trusted to Telecommute

[downwardspiral]

Seriously, not that hard, you can find a job easily with your american backround. But conditions in indian cities can cripple you mentally, there is a serious lack of space, both for the psyche and physique.

Re:We Still Aren't Trusted to Telecommute

[Glonoinha]

Simple - take this phrase :

"LaCosaNostradamus, I'ma bitchslap you."

There you go. Am I a) Happy, b) Upset, c) Mad, d) Indifferent, e) Horny, or f) all of the above?
You can't tell. Even if you thought you knew, you you would be wrong - and that's worse than not knowing because you will assume a stance that defends against (or rallys with) however you perceive I am being, which would make the conversation go downhill from there.

Didn't we recently read here that 50% of people think they can accurately read the 'tone' of an email, when in reality they only get it right about 20% of the time?

(Answer to my question : f) all of the above, but not at you.)

Re:We Still Aren't Trusted to Telecommute

[rossifer]

Exactly.

Re:We Still Aren't Trusted to Telecommute

[hackrobat]

>How hard is it for a foreigner to come and get a job there?

I saw this article on MSNBC last week.

Be wary of all the India "hype" though - it's not as good as the media makes it sound.

My suggestion would be to first get a job in an American company that has an office in India. There's a lot of startup activity happening in the US right now, and even the smallest of companies (like even 4-5 employees) is having an "India strategy" (duh). Take advantage of that. Find an excuse to travel to India on your current job, see how it is here, and if you like it, then look for a more long-term position. I know people who've come here to train teams of engineers for 1-2 months and decided that living here wasn't for them (for whatever reasons). I know others who've found roles that allow them to travel between India and the US every couple of months.

Re:We Still Aren't Trusted to Telecommute

[dodobh]

Neither of the companies mentioned are outsourcing. They have Indian development offices, but not outsourced.

Re:We Still Aren't Trusted to Telecommute

[rossifer]

They have Indian development offices, but not outsourced.

Though the challenges and benefits are different when you hire your own employees in an offshore office instead of contracting with a offshore bodyshop in another country, both are a part of the practice of "offshoring".

At least in the common parlance as well as the jargon of software development in the US, they are the same. You may be using a different jargon in which they are distinct.

Regards,
Ross

Re:We Still Aren't Trusted to Telecommute

[NormalVisual]

Most of the workforce that could apply for it then as now are still forced to drive to work and be directly supervised

Don't forget that the peons are also not allowed to deduct the legitimate expenses they incur in doing so (fuel, etc.).

Re:We Still Aren't Trusted to Telecommute

[Breakfast Pants]

If you do a 3/2 split, they don't save any money on office space. If you want to telecommute you have to go all out, and only come in for meetings and rare team workathons.

Re:We Still Aren't Trusted to Telecommute

[radtea]

"LaCosaNostradamus, I'ma bitchslap you."

There you go. Am I a) Happy, b) Upset, c) Mad, d) Indifferent, e) Horny, or f) all of the above?
You can't tell. Even if you thought you knew, you you would be wrong

Your argument only holds water if you assume without a shred of evidence that people standing face to face have a clue what the other person is feeling.

There is an arbitrarily large body of evidence against the assumption.

Re:We Still Aren't Trusted to Telecommute

[getafixx]

I disagree with you, and agree that it is becoming widespread. The last four companies I have worked for allowed telecommuting at varying levels. All are in the Fortune 500 (one in the top ten, two in the top 100, one the top 250) and I am in the United States. Currently I telecommute full time. Is it the norm yet? No, but it will be. Everyone involved saves time and money.

Re:We Still Aren't Trusted to Telecommute

[bhsurfer]

Yeah, that's a vaild point. I was more looking at it from a feasibility angle on my getting my work done rather than from the company's perspective (mistake number 1). I'm not actively working on trying to do it because it's not really that great of a fit for this particular position anyway; I was more musing out loud about "how could this work?"

With our merger and lots of upcoming changes looming on the horizon (Sarbanes-Oxley, anyone?) there is the potential for major restructuring in my department in the not-so-distant future, however, so the possiblity could open up for some of our folks at some point. My gut feeling about it in my case is that I won't be telecommuting regularly while I'm where I am because it probably won't make sense from a company perspective. Another gut feeling is that I'm likely going to get to participate in some of those "team workathons" you mentioned...moving from the private to public sector has it's definite ups and downs.

Re:We Still Aren't Trusted to Telecommute

[Anonymous Coward]

Dude,

        its evident from your statement that you know Jack about the difference between the so called "Bodyshopping" model and an Offshore Delivery model...

and its futile to argue with you considering your rigid opinions about MBAs and delivery......
Its good in a way though that foolish people like you exist ;) .... lol ....

Not the best in every country

[yogikoudou]

This story said that IT managers have the U.K's third-worst job -- ranking just below phone sex operator (No. 1) and ferry cabin cleaner (No. 2).

Re:Not the best in every country

[Anonymous Coward]

IT Manager != Software Engineer

Re:Not the best in every country

[nmx]

This story said that IT managers have the U.K's third-worst job -- ranking just below phone sex operator (No. 1) and ferry cabin cleaner (No. 2).

IT manager and software engineer are completely different jobs. That's like saying that an orderly and a trauma doctor have the same job.

Re:Not the best in every country

[Anonymous Coward]

It maybe ranked as one of the worst jobs (in the UK) but I for one believe in efficiency in management - without it you just cannot compete in today's cutthroat world.

As an example my company recently acquired a small mid-western software company which had been running for a few years but only just breaking even. Just by downsizing the number of unecessary or inefficient staff and regularly reviewing performance, things improved drastically. We then started up a sister company in Bangalore which enabled us to employ double the number of programmers for the same dollar value as previously - in order to improve software quality and speed up development time.

Re:Not the best in every country

[punkr0x]

But TFA says "computer IT analysts," a category which seems to include everyone in the IT department "from desktop support technician to Webmaster to database wonk," is the number 7 job. So it still seems to rank pretty highly with them, as opposed to the "Crap Jobs" survey.

Re:Not the best in every country

[Annoyed broccoli]

True, but the point being, of all the jobs known to mankind, one study in UK says IT manager is a crappy job, while another study in US says there is nothing better than being a software engineer. It's peculiar that the guy with the best and the guy with the worst job are both computer profesionals. Or maybe one of the two study (or both) is bollocks.

Re:Not the best in every country

[rk]

Which healthcare position maps to which IT position is an exercise left to the reader. :-)

Re:Not the best in every country

[Phisbut]

This story said that IT managers have the U.K's third-worst job -- ranking just below phone sex operator (No. 1) and ferry cabin cleaner (No. 2).

Last I checked, UK was not in America... The best job in one place can be the worst in another place. I bet being a crocodile hunter in northern-Canada sucks...

Re:Not the best in every country

[Anonymous Coward]

Software engineering sucks in any country

The only reason why this is rated top 10 is
because it is an IT magazine and wants to encourage software engineering. Software engineering is not a top 10 profession working with people is.

No offence but software engineering is not a glamour profession. Most of the time engineers are not in a position to make decisions. Decisions are forced on Software Engineers by architects and managers. Software engineering entitles you to little power or control. An engineer is a mere peon to suffer the whims of a company. Most software engineering involves back office database and administration. A really hot job would allow you to work with HOT WOMEN. The average software engineer has about as much chance to get laid and meet hot women as a cadaver. Software engineering also does nothing to improve your social skills or speach. Those Top 10 reviews never mention CODE REVIEWS which are about as much fun as having a root canal without novocaine.

A really great job allows you to be creative which is something that very vew software engineer positions are. Most engineering jobs now involve banging away at data and interfacing database a with system B.

The precursor for a hot job is Working with hot WOMEN. Meeting important people and being creative and Meeting HOT WOMEN. Spending 8 hours a day doing nothing but Meeting HOT WOMEN. In software engineering it is 8 hours of banging away at a computer when you could be trying to get laid.

Are you sure?

[mayesa]

Wouldn't it be a better job to own a company like Google or Microsoft? http://www.servicerules.com.ar/

Re:Are you sure?

[jabbo]

This was supposed to be ironical, right? Pointing out that Gates and Brin/Page were software engineers/CS types?

Just checking... I'm kind of slow on the uptake.

Re:Are you sure?

[ebh]

There's that "Ease of Entry" parameter...

Re:Are you sure?

[FatAlb3rt]

Owning Google? Yeah, if you're alright with getting paid $1 per year. Sheesh.

Talk to the hand

[suso]

Tell that to unemployed software enginner Steve (who comes from a rough area) and is making more money selling Vibe than he ever did at Intertoad.

Re:Talk to the hand

[Zzesers92]

Steve (who comes from a rough area)

Actually Steve "coming from a rough area" was only part of the schtick he used to sell all those subscriptions to Vibe.

For the two people on slashdot who don't get this, it's an Office Space reference.

Software engineer vs. system administrator

[BadAnalogyGuy]

I realize that this site is mainly geared towards system adminstrators and other professionals who change passwords and plug PCs in for real programmers, so it's probably the wrong place to say this. But being a programmer just seems like a much more enjoyable line of work than babysitting servers all day long.

Re:Software engineer vs. system administrator

[JeanBaptiste]

being a sysadmin is a good job, as long as they give you the leeway to do things the way you want them. because once you get done cleaning up the mess the last guy got fired for, and after you get done setting things up the way you want them to be... its a pretty slack job (after everything gets running smoothly), leaving you with plenty of time to experiment with new technologies and stuff. As a programmer, you generally have things you're supposed to be working on every minute of every day. /former sysadmin, current programmer //thinking of switching back

Re:Software engineer vs. system administrator

[eln]

I've been both a software engineer and a system administrator/engineer. They both have their perks.

Software engineering I think gives you more of a sense that you're working on something really big, and there's obviously a huge sense of accomplishment when something you spent a year writing is used by thousands of people. On the flip side, though, you have to work for a year or more pounding away at code, with no real sense of accomplishment other than passing milestones. Often times, even that gives you no real sense of a job well done, since time frames for milestones are often set unrealistically, so you end up feeling lousy about missing a milestone instead of good for hitting one.

Then, there's the problem of usage. I've been a part of failed projects, and it can be gut wrenching. I've worked on applications that took 2 and 3 years to write, and ended up failing for various reasons. It sucks pouring so many hours into something and making all the sacrifices necessary to work 80 hour weeks just to have the project fail.

Being an SA, on the other hand, has its own rewards and issues. First, most SAs (unless you're a junior grade) don't babysit servers all day long, they generally are working on various projects to build or improve systems. These projects tend to be of a shorter duration than software projects, so there is generally more of an immediate sense of accomplishment. Also, you tend to be closer to the user base, which means you can easily see people using something you built on a day to day basis and draw some sense of accomplishment from that.

On the other hand, SAs also tend to be overworked, and can easily get caught up just trying to put out fires to maintain the servers rather than working on new and better things. A good SA will be able to stabilize things, but depending on the issue at hand that could take days or weeks or even months of very long hours before things return to where they should be. While a good SA will automate virtually every day to day task they can, sometimes they are too busy putting out fires to do so. This sort of thing can cause rapid burnout.

I spent 5 year being an SA, then spent 5 years being a software engineer, and now I'm back to being an SA again. Chances are good I will eventually be a software engineer again at some point. Both jobs have their advantages, and depending on where you work, both jobs can generate basically the same salaries.

Re:Software engineer vs. system administrator

[HairyCanary]

Nicely done, troll. I almost fell for it ;-).

I am curious, though, do you really believe that sysadmins change passwords and plug in PC's? Where I work, that is done by Helpdesk.

I wrote perl scripts to babysit the servers (all UNIX), and I spend almost 100% of my time working on projects. Usually that means writing web applications and modifying open source software to better fit what our organization (ISP) needs. I bet I write more code than an average "real programmer" does ;-). I'd much rather work with open source software than write IT applications in .NET (this is what our applications team does all day).

And that is a roundabout way of pointing out that TFA is bunk. "Best" is a subjective term. I wouldn't trade my UNIX SysAdmin position for a Software Engineer position unless you bumped up my salary a good bit. That's unlikely.

Re:Software engineer vs. system administrator

[qwijibo]

I've always been oscillating between sysadmin/programmer in most of my jobs. Now I'm doing both, and the salary is definitely better than either of them individually. The nice thing about being on both sides is that you can more easily develop a more cohesive, but realistic and maintainable system. Programmers and sysadmins have different goals most of the time. Once you transcend all of that, call yourself a System Architect.

Re:Software engineer vs. system administrator

[Anonymous Coward]

Here's a hint. If you're writing PERL scripts, and you think that comes close to software engineering, you're not a software engineer.

Re:Software engineer vs. system administrator

[swillden]

On the flip side, though, you have to work for a year or more pounding away at code, with no real sense of accomplishment other than passing milestones. Often times, even that gives you no real sense of a job well done, since time frames for milestones are often set unrealistically, so you end up feeling lousy about missing a milestone instead of good for hitting one.

This comment is very interesting to me, because the issues you describe are so completely irrelevant to me. Not that it should surprise anyone that different people are motivated by different things, but I thought you might find it interesting to hear how mine (and those of others I know) are different.

I get my sense of accomplishment from understanding and solving tricky, difficult problems, especially when the solution is particularly elegant. Hitting milestone targets is something that I have to do in order to keep others satisfied with the progress, and it's something that I focus on for that reason, but it really means little or nothing to me, personally. This means that software engineering is satisfying to me if and only if there are plenty of tricky but soluble problems.

Unrealistic milestones cause me some pain, of course, but mostly because I have to waste so much time and energy explaining to people that I'm going to miss the milestone, and then trying to come up with a date that I think I can hit.

I do think it's cool when lots of people use something I built, but I look at that as more of a bonus, rather than a primary motivator.

Re:Software engineer vs. system administrator

[engagebot]

Well, it does depend. Maybe you're lucky enough to be in a place with a big enough IT staff to have helpdesk-type techs. Right now, I work in a hospital with almost 2000 users. There's me and one other guy as sysadmins, and one guy as a tech. Needless to say, we put out our share of fires.

I'm getting ready to go to a smaller company (about 100), full of mostly SE's and EE's (all using Macs) in a big robotics production type facility. The IT staff will consist of the IT directory and me as the sysadmin. Considering the size and knowledge of my new userbase, I'm thinking I'll be able to hang up the duct tape and fire extinguishers for the most part...

So what i'm saying is, it depends, and it doesn't necessarily have anything to do with the competency of the sysadmin.

Re:Software engineer vs. system administrator

[indifferent children]

Don't think of it as "cleaning up the mess the last guy got fired for". Think of it as "making a mess, that is compatible with your prejudices, for your successor to clean-up."

Re:Software engineer vs. system administrator

[JeanBaptiste]

I do get your point.

Sometimes though, there is just plain 'doing something the wrong way'.

Re:Software engineer vs. system administrator

[Bill Dog]

It sucks pouring so many hours into something and making all the sacrifices necessary to work 80 hour weeks just to have the project fail.

That's an easy one: Don't work 80 hours a week. I wouldn't do it unless I was getting paid for the two jobs that I was doing (and then not for forever).

But in general, aligning your job satisfaction with things that often don't work out, or otherwise things that are outside of your control, is a choice, and a bad one at that. Rather than feeling good about hitting PHBs' arbitrary "deadlines" etc., feel good about the quality of your work. I would like to see people using what I've written, sure, but bottom-line, it's a fucking job, so ultimately I don't care if anyone ever uses anything, as long as I get paid all the same. My satisfaction comes from things like reusing code as a library that I had stopped for a minute and thought about on a previous project and decided to make more general-purpose.

Re:Software engineer vs. system administrator

[Anonymous Coward]

I have to post this anonymously or teh boss might find out.

Being an SA kicks ass. No-one knows what you do, except that you make magic.

The money's great, vendor kickbacks are sweet, and unlimited overtime is available through creative fault management.

Being an SA is so neat, SA beat for the street.

Software Engineer

[LithiumX]

So what exactly constitutes a "software engineer"?

At my job, I have to write software (varying from simple quickie scripts to complex neural-net based adaptive administration controls) to handle the administration and maintenance of a few tens of thousands of servers. I have to be able to work with 5 different languages and be familiar with developing for four different architectures.

I'm rarely ever given the chance to plan anything in advance (that's just how this place works) and "testing" is often done hot - launch once operational, and quickly work out the bugs while it's in use. I usually work either entirely alone, or with our admins to give them tools to their specifications and needs. No team, little oversight, and full responsibility for failures.

Does that make me a Software Engineer? Or just a two-bit coder?

Re:Software Engineer

[Penguinoflight]

Your probably a software engineer with the wrong title.

Re:Software Engineer

[91degrees]

2 bit coder. Writing code isn't strictly neccesary forbeing a software engineer any more than welding bridges together is an essential part of structural engineering. It's just that software engineers tend to do their own construction.

Re:Software Engineer

[Ours]

You don't choose anarchy. Anarchy chooses you.

I guess your sig describes your work enviroment well.

Re:Software Engineer

[Dr. Cody]

At my job, I have to write software (varying from simple quickie scripts to complex neural-net based adaptive administration controls) to handle the administration and maintenance of a few tens of thousands of servers. I have to be able to work with 5 different languages and be familiar with developing for four different architectures.

I'm rarely ever given the chance to plan anything in advance (that's just how this place works) and "testing" is often done hot - launch once operational, and quickly work out the bugs while it's in use. I usually work either entirely alone, or with our admins to give them tools to their specifications and needs. No team, little oversight, and full responsibility for failures.

Does that make me a Software Engineer? Or just a two-bit coder?

No, that just makes you some idiot waving his e-penis on SLASHDOT DOT ORG

Re:Software Engineer

[LithiumX]

In that case... where can one find a (meaningful) list of descriptions of the various titles that people throw around like candy? I've gotten so used to people claiming to be this or that (and not even knowing what the title means), that I wonder how much they really do mean.

On the other hand, it's hard for me to describe exactly what I do when I have no real way of knowing what I can honestly claim to be. System Administrator was the last task I've had where I knew exactly what I was, and even then I didn't know what it was called when it involved about 70 servers.

Re: Software Engineer

[Black Parrot]

> Does that make me a Software Engineer? Or just a two-bit coder?

Consider an analogy between a civil engineer and a construction worker, and let that answer your question.

Kinda makes you think how immature our profession is, too.

Re:Software Engineer

[SnapShot]

It seems like the proper use of the title of "software engineer" has been argued in the letters section of Dr. Dobbs for only about 20 years, but here's how I got the title.

Boss: What do you want on your business card?
Me (with 2 years of experience): Senior Software Engineer.
Boss: Ok.

Looking back with a few more years of experience under my belt it seems a bit humorous; especially if I ever go back to look at the code I was writing at that time.

Re:Software Engineer

[Anonymous Coward]

Just stick "Large Scale" in front of your title. Maybe an "Automation" in there somewhere as well, since it's seems like that's what your coding is for.

Re:Software Engineer

[Dan East]

2 bit coding? I thought coding for 8 bit CPUs was pretty old school, but that takes the cake.

Dan East

Re:Software Engineer

[KnightStalker]

You remember the A-Team episodes where they weld steel plates on the outside of a car or whatever, drop a bus engine in it, stick some guns on and go ass-kickin?

If you call that mechanical engineering, you can probably call your job software engineering. I'd do either one of 'em though...

Re:Software Engineer

[castoridae]

Just goes to show how little a title really means. You do the same work, you get the same pay... why would your boss care if you wanna call yourself Senior Software Engineer or Chief Kahuna of The Southeast Cubicle? Talk about a cheap motivator...

Re:Software Engineer

[Anonymous Coward]

You have to be an engineer first. And then you need to know how to engineer software.
This is not coding or system administration, though these are very important.

Re:Software Engineer

[mzwaterski]

Seems like you can't really call yourself a computer engineer if you don't know what one is... I'm sure I'll get hammered for going this route, but do you have a degree in computer engineering? You wouldn't call yourself an electrical or civil engineer without a degree, so why is it any different for computer.

How does Software Technician sound? Putting two-bit coder on your resume probably won't get you far! :-)

Re:Software Engineer

[Randolpho]

You remember the A-Team episodes where they weld steel plates on the outside of a car or whatever, drop a bus engine in it, stick some guns on and go ass-kickin?

You mean every A-Team episode, ever? :)

Re:Software Engineer

[Penguinoflight]

IT jobs are gained by experience, and usually a job that requires a "Senior Software Engineer" pays better than one that requires a "programmer".

Re:Software Engineer

[Randolpho]

So what exactly constitutes a "software engineer"?

The question for the ages. Nobody really knows, to be honest. More accurately, we can't decide. Wikipedia touches on the subject, if you want to read more:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Software_engineering# Debate_over_who_is_a_software_engineer

Re:Software Engineer

[c4seyj0nes]

Theres a big difference between a computer engineer and a software engineer. I got my degree in information science and technology (aka IT) while my friend got his in computer engineering. (There is rarely a school that offers a major in software engineering, but most CS and IT departments have a track for it.) With our degrees, I design and create sofware while he designs and creates computer chips and boards. I would consider myself a software engineer while he is a computer engineer.

Re:Software Engineer

[Randolpho]

Here is a very interesting article I found in that Wikipedia article. It's the U.S. Dept. of Labor definition of the "Computer Software Engineer".

http://www.bls.gov/oco/ocos267.htm

Re:Software Engineer

[teckfrek]

You're not going to get hammered. It was just the most idiotic question. The thought that you have to have a degree in order to be an engineer is ridiculous. I don't have a degree and don't need one. My IQ is hovering around 138 and I'm a self taught software engineer/computer engineer. That means I can talk to you about pointers, linked lists, double linked lists, inheritance, polymorphism, etc etc. I constantly sit in meetings with PhD's and converse at the same level about all topics including design, architecture, and problem resolutions. BTW, I'm 33 and have been making 6 figures since 1999 (yes even during the dot bomb). While most "computer engineers" were looking for jobs. Those who require other people to have a degree to achieve some title or status are most likely highly insecure about their own intelligence and comprehension of complex systems. You should re-evaluate your process of identifying who is or is not a software engineer. To answer your questions, computer engineering is very different than civil engineering. A decent computer can be bought for a few hundred dollars. All the tools you need are open source and available with an internet connection. So, clearly you can teach yourself how to be a computer engineer with minimal resources and alot of time (being an insomniac helps). I would guess that to teach yourself how to be a civil engineer would require many thousnds of dollars worth of equipment/tools/software/supplies. This could be a barrier for those not fortunate enough to be born into money or who simply couldn't afford to go to college.

Re:Software Engineer

[mzwaterski]

I was sloppy in my post because my school had electrical engineering with a computer focus (computer engineering) and computer/software engineering (software engineering with a little bit of computer engineering background). Thanks for the clarification!

Re: Software Engineer

[LithiumX]

I'm not sure that analogy works well. You do have programmers who are "construction workers". Someone else lays out the plan and blueprints, and they just fill it in with material (code). There's skill involved, but those skills are primarily devoted to the details, not the big picture.

I'm assuming most programmers are in my position... they know what the problems are, but have to come up with the solution, the method, the architecture, and the implementation themselves.

Re:Software Engineer

[pclminion]

Does that make me a Software Engineer? Or just a two-bit coder?

This is not a personal attack by any means, but I'd say that because you release code in an untested state, what you are doing is not "engineering." Imagine if a civil engineer built a bridge and tested it by having the public drive over it. The bridge might be okay, but it's not how things are done in engineering.

Re:Software Engineer

[Anonymous Coward]

You had me at "complex neural-net based adaptive administration controls" - LOL... You must be very special indeed to be controlling tens of thousands of servers without a team or any backup and nobody above you in the chain of command. Or you're a pretentious wannabe software engineer, another one of which we can do without. You should go work for one of the big consultancy firms - they love guys like you.

Re:Software Engineer

[mzwaterski]

I'm sorry, but to me the term engineer means more than just doing the work and having the knowledge. It is a title that is given after you receive an engineering degree. I'm not saying that you don't know every bit as much or more than someone with the title, but I don't agree that you gain the title by the simple knowledge. It may be arbitrary and is certainly no measure of your intelligence, but the title engineer comes with the degree. Its just my opinion though, everyone is welcome to their own...

Re:Software Engineer

[Anonymous Coward]

I imagine that you'd need quite a few skills to program for a 2bit processor!

Re:Software Engineer

[teckfrek]

The problem is that anyone can buy a degree for $600 off the internet which by your definition makes them engineers. This simply isn't true. Wikipedia has a great definition of engineer:

An engineer is someone who practices the profession of engineering - a person who uses scientific knowledge to solve practical problems using technology. The title "engineer" is normally used only by individuals who have an academic degree (or equivalent work experience) in one of the engineering disciplines.

Not nearly as stringent as your definition.

Re:Software Engineer

[KnightStalker]

I have a software engineering degree, and I'm not an engineer. In civil engineering, mechanical engineering, etc., "engineer" is a title you can use after you obtain a license by completing an engineering degree, then passing a comprehensive exam for the state, working for an established engineer for a few years, then passing a focused Professional Engineering exam which is comparable to (or more difficult than) the Bar Exam. There's nothing like it for software.

You can do something analogous to that kind of engineering in software, but not many people do, certainly not most of the people who call themselves software engineers.

Re:Software Engineer

[2names]

That is interesting about the business card. When I worked at 3Com, I had "Pro From Dover" as part of my job title on my business card. I still have half a box of those cards as a funny reminder that title very often little to nothing to do with what you actually do on a day-to-day basis.

Re:Software Engineer

[91degrees]

No. Just a lot of macros to conmbine full adders together to actually store something useful. Now if it also had a 2 bit address space, things could be interesting...

Re:Software Engineer

[castoridae]

Right. But recruiters trolling for interview candidates for a new job have requirements like "5-8 years experience" not requirements like "previous held title of Senior Software Engineer." Someone who comes in with 2 years and that title is going to be considered as someone with 2 years of experience.

I'm not supporting the way recruiters filter people, as there are people with 2 years that can contribute far more than some with 8, but that's the way it is. Inflated titles don't go very far.

Re:Software Engineer

[Diabolus777]

A new curriculum for universities has surfaced in the last 4 eyars , i think.
I was told it originated from texas universities.

I enrolled in engineering university, in the software engineering concentration. We have a common classes made up of the basic science courses (maths and physics mostly) that all curriculums share (electrical, mecanical, civil). We do mostly analysis, design, architecture, project management, norms (ISO, IEEE, etc) and methodologies (RUP, SEI, etc).

Our goal is to be able to sign our designs with the engineers seals of approval (which makes us personaly liable). This means we can lose our practice license if dangerous bugs appear. Of course, this is mostly meant for software critical applications, but we still have the responsability of quality.

Most business don't know about us yet. I think there's just 1 or 2 batches of bachelors in software engineering that graduated to this day.

In essence, this degree is made to seperate the software engineer from the 2 bit coder.

Re:Software Engineer

[mzwaterski]

The degree must be from an ABET certified school.

Re:Software Engineer

[engagebot]

Congratulations on the most awesome slashdot post ever. Too bad I don't have any mod points, or you'd get them all. And it won't fit in a sig, either...

Re:Software Engineer

[CastrTroy]

That really depends on where you live. In Canada, you aren't allowed (against the law) to call yourself an engineer if you aren't licensed as a professional engineer by the ccpe. Even if you have a degree in engineering, you're allowed to wear the iron ring, but you can't call yourself an engineer. In Canada, it's a profession, like a doctor, or lawyer. It carries legal liability that you are taking responsibility for your actions.

Re:Software Engineer

[nahpets77]

I would say that you're situation is the exception rather than the rule. Having a degree from an accredited university is like a certification saying 'so-and-so is qualified for job xyz'. Anyone can say they read 'Software Engineering for Dummies' volumes 1 through 10, but does that make them a Software Engineer? Where's the proof that you actually understood the material and can apply it? The argument that anyone can buy a degree off the internet also doesn't hold water as most companies actually care where you get your degree from... there's a reason why MIT grads don't have to look long for employment.

Re:Software Engineer

[Politburo]

You mean they don't drive bigger and bigger trucks over it until it collapses? I've been lied to!

Re:Software Engineer

[KnightStalker]

I should also mention that in many cases, engineers have personal legal liability for what they create. That's the tradeoff for the automatic credibility that comes with the title.

Re:Software Engineer

[Anonymous Coward]

Thanks for posting this.

Considering my civil engineering background, I always was a little iffy calling someone a software engineer (given that it's really more of a corporate title). Without trying to sound pretentious, if you're going to call yourself an engineer you should really be licensed and follow a codified set of practices... otherwise I'll continue to call you a programmer or software developer.

Re:Software Engineer

[PinkyDead]

The whole point of professional degrees is so that you know who you are dealing with and that if that person doesn't deal professionally with you then there is a comeback.

If you were sick, you wouldn't trust you life to someone who assured you that they knew everything about perscription drugs but weren't actually a Doctor - would you?

Re:Software Engineer

[barzok]

Sorry Calvin.

Re:Software Engineer

[Anonymous Coward]

If you have no experience with ASIC design then you aren't a self-taught computer engineer. If I can easily poke holes in your knowledge of physics more advanced than Newtonian dynamics, then you aren't a self-taught computer engineer. On the software side here's something really simple: prove that the kleene closure is indempotent on regular expressions. I think we all know you aren't the educational equivalent of a Ph.D. in any subject, least of all CpE or CS.

"Software Engineering" is a term that really means nothing more than programmer the way that it's used in the industry.

Re: Software Engineer

[Anonymous Coward]

Software engineering is the planning, the requirements management, the development life cycle, and testing/fixing/maintaining that comes with each project.

Programming is just a small aspect, and most software engineers do programming as well as outlining the problems correctly.

Of course, if you've heard of a fishbone diagram, or work with UML or similar, then you might just be a software engineer.

Re:Software Engineer

[NewmanBlur]

I would say the release conditions the poster described are more the result of the working environment imposed by the company than a lack of engineering discipline. So I agree that what he's doing isn't "engineering", but that doesn't mean the guy isn't an engineer, or lacks engineering skills.

Re:Software Engineer

[Anonymous Coward]

If you have to ask, then you are probably a programmer.

Software engineers are usually, well, engineers.

That means they probably have at least one engineering degree (usually electrical, computer or software), and perhaps most importantly they have an engineering mindset. That mindset is hard to quantify, but most engineers share it.

Engineers are taught to solve problems given a set of constraints (budget, schedule, safety, environmental, physical, etc.) in a safe and efficient manner. They use whatever tools, proceses/procedures necessary to do the job right.

They also tend to have more of a general science/math background, which provides a foundation to know a great deal about the system/product they are developing.

You seem to view working with five programming languages as an accomplishment. A software engineer would in general look at five programming languages as five different ways to hammer a nail, and would probably wonder why the system/product requires five different programming languages :-)

Re:Software Engineer

[Anonymous Coward]

And I thought I was the only one being bent over by my employer.

Re:Software Engineer

[online-shopper]

Purdue University, Lafeyette has been doing this for over ten years. I would suspect far longer.

Re:Software Engineer

[Pxtl]

Agreed. Too many people think "Engineering" and "technical design" are the same thing. Engineering is about safety, not anything else.

Basically, the real difference between a "software developer" and a "software engineer" is that an engineer stamps their project, effectively saying "I, _____, hereby state that this system satisfies all functional requirements, and I accept full personal, financial, and professional responsability if it does not."

Engineering is about never blaming a vendor, or saying "I didn't know that". It is your job to confirm that everything you use is functional for the intended purpose. Blaming Microsoft isn't optional when your job description includes confirming that SQL Server is suitable for the task at hand.

Which is why so little software demands "software engineering" - if Word crashes, nobody dies.

And if this all sounds absurd to you, consider what happens if somebody builds a bridge and it falls for no good reason - if the contractors and developers did their jobs correctly and followed the engineer's designs, then it's the fault of the engineering firm. Guess who pays for the damages? Same thing with Software Engineering.

Re:Software Engineer

[Tyr_7BE]

A degree in Engineering would be a start. I suppose CS might qualify as well. I got my BASc in Computer Engineering with Soft Eng option, and the SE option was jointly run by the CS and Engineering departments, so I suppose it's that kind of area.

A Software Engineer, well, Engineers. They start right from the start of a software project, seeing it through the requirements and specifications, through design and project planning, implementation, and testing. Granted, some SEs will specialize in certain areas, but a good Software Engineer will be capable of producing a clear, coherent specification, detailed design, solid implementation, and appropriate test plan for large complicated systems. It will all be done on schedule, and within budget.

That is what a Software Engineer does.

Re:Software Engineer

[Anonymous Crowhead]

01110100 01110111 01101111 00101101 01100010 01101001 01110100 00100000 01100011 01101111 01100100 01100101 01110010 00001101 00001010

Re:Software Engineer

[spike2131]

Was that the same episode where Hannibal dressed up in a goofy costume, Face flirted with some hot chick, and BA got angry at Murdoch's crazy antics?

Re:Software Engineer

[Anonymous Coward]

It seems that the only people that argue you don't need an engineering degree to be an engineer.....are the ones without an engineering degree. Kinda ironic, huh? I know how to take care of myself when I'm sick or what to do when my son gets a scrape, but I don't call myself a doctor. There's spammers out there making some killer cash too - does that increase their credibility? Heck, all they needed was a computer and an internet connection.

Re:Software Engineer

[Darth_Burrito]

because you release code in an untested state, what you are doing is not "engineering." Imagine if a civil engineer built a bridge and tested it by having the public drive over it.

Whether or not it makes sense to release code in an untested state depends on the results and risks of doing so. It also probably depends on the relative costs of doing tests as well. If the worst that happens is someone has to redo an hour's work, but it would take 3 months to set up proper testing, then someone who insists on proper testing is more bureaucrat than engineer. These are perhaps extreme examples, but the point is if someone releases code in an untested state, that does not imo disqualify them from engineer status if for no other reason than because sometimes production is the most sensible test environment given the nature of the work and whatever restrictions exist in a work environment.

Re: Software Engineer

[LithiumX]

That is all part of regular programming as well, though. Unless you're a drone working in a large team, you're forced to plan (which includes delineating the requirements), work out the life cycle (and usually end up departing from it the first day), testing (it's not done until it's tested), and maintenance.

One co-worker described a software engineer as someone who utilizes class libraries for an application. Of course, he views Microsoft-sponsored methods of programming as *The* way to program.

There has to be considerably more than specific methods and standard preparation and maintenance. Perhaps a matter of scale? The general requirements people give are all part and parcel of any real programming job, yet most programmers are not engineers.

Re:Software Engineer

[Phisbut]

In essence, this degree is made to seperate the software engineer from the 2 bit coder.

Yes, oooh yes. I hate when people all over claim to be a whatever-engineering. If you got an engineering degree, you're an engineer, if you don't have the degree, you're anything but an engineer.

I don't know how it is everywhere else in the world (or even in the US), but up here in Quebec, it is actually illegal to claim being an engineer if you are not a member of the "Ordre des ingénieurs du Québec" (Engineering Order of Quebec). And the Order only allows people who have an engineering degree.

Microsoft even had some legal trouble in Quebec with their so-called Microsoft Certified Systems Engineers (MCSE).

All that being said, I am a junior software engineer, based on both what I do and what the law allows me to say I am.

Re:Software Engineer

[Anonymous Coward]

Actually, RIT (Rochester Institute of Technology) is credited with having the first undergraduate Software Engineering program in the country, if I understand correctly. I am currently in my first year in the program (although I am in the process of switching to Networking, Security, and Systems Administration). As far as what Software Engineering is versus Computer Science... I still have no farking idea.

Re:Software Engineer

[KnightStalker]

I pity da foo who makes fun of the A-Team!

Re: Software Engineer

[KnightStalker]

Actually, you might have hit on it there. If you could refer to a body of knowledge (you could say, "Best Practices") and use that with evidence from the problem to confidently state that something is a correct solution, in my opinion you would be doing engineering, especially if you could sign your name to it and risk your career as a matter of course. That applies to *nothing* I've ever done professionally.

It could be Microsoft methods, or a full-blown risk-analysis, requirements gathering, detailed design, etc. waterfall model, or just tossing something together and giving it to the users to find any bugs. But your process should be able to pass some kind of peer review and you should be able to stand behind any design before and after the implementation.

Re:Software Engineer

[Anonymous Coward]

It always amazes me how "hardcore" a lot of sysadmins *think* their jobs are. Neural nets for admin tools? Yawn. What a waste of a perfectly good neural net.

I'm not trying to start a flame war or anything, but sysadmins aren't exactly on the bleeding edge of technology. Nor does administering a network require any skills that are truly difficult to master. At best, it's just a large *quantity* of information to absorb.

If your career goals include being able to brag on slashdot about how hardcore you are, at least go do something that's truly high tech, or at least something more difficult to master than writing admin tools.

For the record, I don't consider my own job to be "hardcore" either, so don't misinterpret this as a dick-waving contest. But my job is at least an inch or two closer to being hardcore than a sysadmin's job is. I write real-time embedded code for satellite test sets. Maybe if I wrote the actual flight software I could brag that my code is on a bunch of satellites orbiting the Earth...but it turns out flight software is actually pretty boring.

Re:Software Engineer

[mat9h]

IMHO there's a big difference between a software programmer and a software engineer. It's not just semantics. Some programmers can take specifications and translate it into code. This requires specialized skills, but is very predictable. This is also much easier to commoditize. Software Engineers, in comparison, do the above, but also take on design responsibilities. Rather then specifications, they need to consider requirements and constraints. Rather then just learning a handful of technology, they are up to date on everything that is available and will alter their strategy accordingly.

Re:Software Engineer

[Stud1y]

HAA! I'd like to meet this software engineer. I've been doing this for the better part of 10 years. "It will all be done on schedule, and within budget." My Ass. we all know that the specifications have changed. The time line grew, and the budget was too low to begin with.

Re:Software Engineer

[sgt_doom]

I think he means he uses Windows XP....

Re:Software Engineer

[FatAlb3rt]

Testing is for cowards. What, you don't have confidence in what you do? ;)

Re:Software Engineer

[Anonymous Coward]

In Soviet America, Mr T makes fun of food.

"Aieee look at the melon over there. you a sucka!"
"My moma make better chitlins then yo moma."

Re:Software Engineer

[LithiumX]

I leverage the synergistic aspects of my virtualized neural net architecture, generating a value-added bleeding-edge e-ternative for actionable actions within it's core competencies, thus empowering me with less desktime, and all this through increased effectivity within it's downline-oriented architecture.

My brain is bleeding.

Re:Software Engineer

[jsrjsr]

Depends on what choices I have.

My mother used to work for a hospital. I can remember her choosing to wait a little bit before going to the walk-in clinic / emergency room based on which Doctor came off or on shift.

That medical degree doesn't guarantee that you're going to get appropriate care.

Re:Software Engineer

[Y0tsuya]

I'd like to buy that Stanford MSEE degree for $600. Where do I sign up?

Re:Software Engineer

[russotto]

Engineering existed before the government and engineering guilds came up with all those hoops to jump through before an engineer can call himself an engineer. Obviously, Professional Engineers (who ALWAYS use the capitals) and those trying to become Professional Engineers get a wee bit upset when people who haven't passed the guild initiation call themselves engineers. But that's just because they want to keep their club exclusive.

Re:Software Engineer

[Tarison]

I think it makes you my co-worker.

Re:Software Engineer

[Diabolus777]

if you have proof of this, it would be nice to visit:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Software_engineering
and add up that info. Check the middle of the article, you'll see this:
"A fellow editor requested that someone provide references or some sources for the information in this section."

I would have liked to know the origins of the degree, but the information is hard to find.

Re:Software Engineer

[KnightStalker]

You're not wrong about that, but it's not a bad thing. The same applies to doctors and lawyers, as has been pointed out. I can't call myself a doctor, even if I have a bachelor's degree in health sciences or something. They get to keep their exclusive club and high salaries, and the rest of us get to know that anyone who calls herself "Doctor" or "Engineer" actually has the proper expertise.

The guy a few posts up the chain who thinks he's an engineer because he knows what pointers are is simply delusional.

Re:Software Engineer

[Bill Dog]

Recruiters just want their fee for placing a body. Most people probably lie about their years of experience, and recruiters are more than happy to go along.

As for titles, I was once talking with one while unemployed and when I told her that I was "Software Engineer" two jobs ago, and "Web Developer" at my last job, she said "wasn't that a step down?". I tried to tell her that with a 20% raise, it wasn't to me, but she still seemed hung up on the titles.

Re: Software Engineer

[Black Parrot]

> I'm assuming most programmers are in my position... they know what the problems are, but have to come up with the solution, the method, the architecture, and the implementation themselves.

Hence my comment about how immature our profession is.

Re:Software Engineer

[ph1ll]

It's just that software engineers tend to do their own construction.

That's like saying lawyers have to write their own contracts... D'uh, yes of course they do.

The code is the document, the design *as well as* the product.

Re:Software Engineer

[epee1221]

Passing building codes and inspection doesn't guarantee that your house isn't going to fall down on you and kill your entire family, but you wouldn't build a house without going through inspection just because inspection doesn't absolutely guarantee stability.

Re:Software Engineer

[aevans]

Engineer is a title that is given to someone who drives a train. Or more generally, someone who works on engines. The meaning of the word "engineer" is analogous to the modern terms "mechanic" or "driver" and association in other fields extends analogously.

Re:Software Engineer

[aevans]

That has to do with a union being granted legal control of a dictionary. That doesn't have anything to do with engineering. Try linguistics or political science.

Re:Software Engineer

[epee1221]

That has to do with a union being granted legal control of a dictionary.
You mean like ABET?

Re:Software Engineer

[Phisbut]

That has to do with a union being granted legal control of a dictionary. That doesn't have anything to do with engineering.

Are you saying that, wherever you are, one is allowed to tell everyone he's a doctor and perform surgery even though he never finished high school? Gotta tell you I'm glad to live in a society where people aren't allowed to pretend they're of a profession when they aren't. Our doctors are real doctors, and our engineers are real engineers.

Re:Software Engineer

[jsrjsr]

Interesting that you should choose this example because of my experiences in having a building contractor construct a house for me.

The day after the framing was completed -- and had passed inspection -- my wife and I arrived to see how things were coming along. After noticing that the owner of the contracting company was there and that the subcontractor and his crew were packing up, I suggested that we walk outside. After we got outside my wife asked me why and I said "Because Elmer is in there firing the sub."

After they left, Elmer told us that he and his expeditor had noticed a number of things that the crew had been covering up that weren't done to his standards and should not have passed inspection.

Was the sub-contractor licensed? Yep.

Would I have noticed these issues? I hadn't spotted them by then and I have no reason to believe that I would have found them later (unless the house fell down, to use your terminology). After all, the building inspector missed them too.

Would I build a house without going through inspection? Well, my family came close on my parents' house. About the only thing that hasn't been removed and reconstructed is the outer shell and portions of the floors:

1) New concrete block foundation

2) Large amount of new framing inside (including cutting out and headering off a load-bearing wall)

3) New plumbing (supply, waste and vent)

4) New insulation (didn't have any before)

5) New wiring

6) New drywall

All of this work was done by family members who were not licensed and the work was never inspected (it's in a small town where there is no licensing or inspection structure).

It's the knowledge that counts, the codes and inspections are supposed to ensure that the accumulated knowledge of how to build a house is used. Just as having building codes and requiring inspections to enforce the codes doesn't guarantee that a house won't fall down, not having those inspections or the code doesn't mean that it will.

Re:Software Engineer

[Randolpho]

Was that the same episode where Hannibal dressed up in a goofy costume, Face flirted with some hot chick, and BA got angry at Murdoch's crazy antics?

You left out BA refusing to fly, then un-questioningly quaffing a mickeyed milk and sleeping through the rest of the episode.

Re:Software Engineer

[Randolpho]

Slashdot needs a +1 Busini-babble moderation.

Re:Software Engineer

[Anomie-ous Cow-ard]

My degree (closest to a "software engineer") was labeled as "BS in Computer Science". I had classmates getting degrees labeled "BA in Computer Science", the only difference being that they had to fulfill the general requirements of the "College of Arts & Sciences" instead of the "College of Engineering".

As with your school, those with a Computer Enginnering degree (through the Electrical & Computer Engineering department, rather than the Computer Science department) dealt with hardware rather than software.

Re:Software Engineer

[PinkyDead]

It's all about trust - of course, you trust you family members, and you're dead right to. But what about strangers - that's why you can building codes, and licensed professionals.

Sure wasn't My Cousin Vinny the best defense attorney ever.

Re:Software Engineer

[jsrjsr]

And as I and others have pointed out elsewhere, the building codes and licensed professionals still screw things up. When we built our house, we checked out other houses that various contractors had built and talked with the owners of those houses. By doing that, we were able to decide which contractor to trust. Given the fact that the contractor redid some work that had already passed inspection, I'm confident that it was the choice of contractor and not the codes / inspection that got us a good house.

You can work anywhere in India or China

[Anonymous Coward]

"You can work anywhere you want"
So long as it's in India or China.

O rly?

[Valar]

Telecommuting is quickly becoming widespread.

Yeah, telecommuting from India.

WooHoo!

[galenoftheshadows]

I'm gonna spend 4 to 8 years on a software engineering degree, and when I'm almost 30, I can have the Best Job in America!!!!!

Waitaminute... I'm a CEO! I already have the Best Job in America! I get to sit on my lazy ass, screw my shareholders, play golf, and then get on national TV at a Supreme Court Hearing and claim I had nothing to do with it! Go me!

Re:WooHoo!

[dslauson]

"I'm gonna spend 4 to 8 years on a software engineering degree, and when I'm almost 30, I can have the Best Job in America!!!!!"

I'm a software engineer, and I've got a bachelor's degree in Computer Science. Nobody's going to give you a job as a CEO if you don't have at least a bachelor's degree, right? Duh... You've got to go to college to get a good job.

Math?

[etymxris]

I have a degree in math and CS and I hardly ever use anything I learned in math for software development. Maybe simple sums and if things are getting really advanced I'll divide by the number of elements for an average. For that matter, I rarely use anything I learned in CS either, past the sophomore year anyway.

The vast majority of software, at least that I've come across, is just moving data around. Certainly, more complex software development exists, such as in the financial services sector. And we rarely have to get into the details of how complex data structures work because we always rely on libraries. Again, I'm sure there are exceptions, but from what I've seen of the work I've come across and that has been done by other developers I know, little is used of school knowledge.

That said, development isn't easy either. You have to be able to pick up new and weird APIs fairly quickly and find creative ways around asinine constraints. I'm just not seeing much in the way of school knowledge used though.

Re:Math?

[Anonymous Coward]

How much math you need really depends on what type of apps you develop. I used to do data analysis automation for a few years on data coming in from physisists and chemical engineers and I used all my math skills constantly including calculus and DE to solve what they needed. But I think the majority of development is business type apps where algebra is about as complex as you need.

I think the main point of CS degrees pushing math so hard is math teaches a certain way of thinking and approaching a problem and enhances logic skills. This we all need.

Re:Math?

[woodsrunner]

The math skills you need develop your mind to be able to pick up wierd API's and find creative ways around problems. It's sort of like when basketball players take ballet, they generally don't throw a pirouette into their layup routine, but the discipline pays off in transferable skills such as grace and injury avoidance.

You might not think the math skills aren't necessary because they are so ingrained into your way of thinking you no longer see the benefits anymore. But try and do basic gui programming with some one without an understanding of geometry... it's pretty scarry.

Math is the cross training of choice for coding.

Re:Math?

[Cornelius the Great]

I have degrees in math and CS also, but I had to learn additional math once I got my current job. I deal with graphics (lots of matrices) and physics computations on an everyday basis (the software in question is a 3D user interface for medical doctors).

True, many software engineers don't need math. But it helps anyway, and it also proves to your employer and other engineers that you're a critical thinker and thus you deserve a respectable salary. It also helps weed out those who shouldn't be studying CS, so that's a good thing for you.

Re:Math?

[cerberusss]

I develop software that reads out instruments. Often these give a voltage along a curve, which must be calculated to sane engineering values using polynomes. That's the most advanced math I've seen so far....

Re:Math?

[Stalyn]

Well Computer Science was first a subset of Mathematics until CS became it's own branch. The first computer scientists were really mathematicians, such as Turing and von Neumann. Also Knuth has a PhD in Mathematics. Computer science in recent times, especially programming, has abstracted a lot of the math away. However math is still very fundamental to Computer Sciences.

Re:Math?

[cerberusss]

The math skills you need develop your mind to be able to pick up wierd API's

*shrugs* I happen to like Perl.

Oh wait. You didn't mention Perl at all.

OK, sorry :)

Re:Math?

[catch23]

Math is probably the wrong term anyway. The kind of "math" most software developers use is something along the lines of complexity theory. Designing code so that it can still solve problems in almost linear time.

Re:Math?

[HunterZ]

The use of applied math in software engineering is a bit of a misconception. What we really do most is encode logic, which is what computers understand. Math can help with analyzing things like performance and also may be necessary for specific applications, but being able to design a set of logical steps to reach a solution (and then encode those steps in the syntax of a programming language) is what most of software engineering is about.

Re:Math?

[XMilkProject]

It depends what you work on. The two types of software projects that require ALOT of math (of projects i work on) are graphics and genetics related software. In any software dealing with vector graphics you'll do more math on curves than you'd ever want to do. In software dealing with DNA analysis there was pretty intense mathematics.

But, it is true that for alot of developers working on business related software, you really only need simple math skills to estimate memory usage, efficiency, etc.

Re:Math?

[aralin]

Poor you, I feel really sorry for you holding a job where you have no use of math. Math is the one major thing that gives me edge on my coworkers. Math is why I can do in two hours what takes others two days. Math is why I know and they just guess. Math lets me win any debate and gives me proof that I am right and they are wrong. Math is the reason my job is fun and their's is not.

Re:Math?

[Tephyrnex]

Software Engineers and Programmers are not the same thing.

I work for a company that develops a very sophisticated scientific instrument. There are complex algorithms, sophisticated calibration techniques, and I am actually a 'software engineer'. I am doing real engineering to solve real world problems...my tool of choice happens to be software. Some people use electrons. Some people use concrete and steel.

I am an engineer by education and a programmer by trade.

Re:Math?

[P3NIS_CLEAVER]

I agree but I think it is more about language skills than math.
A good example would be how children that have studied the Talumud have advanced logical skills.

Re:Math?

[Anonymous Coward]

Since when is basic geometry is a "pretty advanced math skill"?

I have to agree with the GP. I have a degree in mathematics, and I don't use any mathematics I studied at college when programming.

As far as practicality, I hate to say it, but the humanities courses I took were far more useful. Learning how to write, think clearly, and construct an argument are things I do every day. Knowing Galois theory is not.

Re:Math?

[plopez]

IMO, programming is very much like doing a proof. And that is Math.

Re:Math?

[ScottyH]

The first computer scientists were really mathematicians

Well they had to be. At a low level, programming, and computers for that matter, are really nothing more than dynamic math.

But I do agree. A solid coder knows his math, although he may not be required to flex all too often. I've found algorithmic analysis to be pretty useful.

Re:Math?

[ScottyH]

Well that's all nice and good, but have you ever had to prove your programs mathematically?

It's not fun.

Simply put, most code would not live up to rigorous mathematically analysis.

Re:Math?

[Anonymous Coward]

The math skills you need develop your mind to be able to pick up wierd API's and find creative ways around problems. It's sort of like when basketball players take ballet, they generally don't throw a pirouette into their layup routine, but the discipline pays off in transferable skills such as grace and injury avoidance.

When professional athletes take ballet, it's easy to draw a connection between the ballet and their agility. But I see no direct link for mathematics courses. Why pick math? Couldn't it be true that the philosophy courses I took are what developed my mind to be able to pick up weird APIs and find creative ways around problems? Or maybe the 3 foreign languages I learned.

You might not think the math skills aren't necessary because they are so ingrained into your way of thinking you no longer see the benefits anymore.

I love that argument. "If you don't think this is true, that only makes it more true!"

Math is the cross training of choice for coding.

There's certainly a correlation, but I don't see any evidence of causation. You could as easily claim that Dungeons and Dragons is the cross-training of choice for coding.

My degree is in math, and if I had to pick the top 3 things I did in college that helped me now, math courses wouldn't make the list. (They sure were fun, but they probably wouldn't even make the top 10.) In no particular order:
- debate team: how to argue a point, in front of a bunch of strangers
- archaeology courses: how to look at something with a mind for figuring out what it was originally created for
- fraternity: how to live with people, some of whom you really don't like

Re:Math?

[gentlemen_loser]

It also helps weed out those who shouldn't be studying CS, so that's a good thing for you.

I was not going to reply to this overall thread (about math and CS) - but this is something of a sore spot for me and I just can not resist :)

Back when the GRE was in three parts (Verbal, Quantatative, and Analytical), I took the test. Twice. The first time I scored a 690 in analytical, 530 in Quantative, and 560 in Verbal. The second, I was slightly lower in alalytical and slightly higher in quantatative. Verbal stayed almost identical. In college, I graduated with a major in Anthropology (with a focus on genetics) and a minor in Comp Sci. The quantatative test measures your ability to do classical math problems. The analytical test measures your ability in logical reasoning. My score on the anlytical section of the test put it somewhere in the top 10 percent of the population. Conversely, my score on the "math" section was considerably lower.

When I started college, I was a dual major. I changed comp sci to a minor because I could not STAND the math classes. I was bored to tears and more often than not, I just "did not get it".

So, why then am I ranting about what I can and can not seem to do well? I am ranting because the traditional way to weed out comp sci majors is to bombard them with gobs of unrelated math crap. More importantly, the math that is presented to comp sci majors is presented by people who only learn math a certain way and as such only teach math a certain way. I know what my logical reasoning skills are and what I am capable of - you could not convince me that there is NO better way of "weeding" out comp sci majors. I think that our university math departments need to do a better job of "weeding" out math profs who can not teach if their lives depended on it.

Re:Math?

[Anonymous Coward]

I do low-level kernel programming, mostly synchronization primitives. I have needed calculus and differential equations a number of times -- the latter for modelling cache warmth, among other things. Of course, if I hadn't bothered to master these subjects, I wouldn't have any way of knowing that they would have been helpful...

So, is the math -really- useless, or is it instead your level of understanding of math that is useless? ;-)

Re:Math?

[Cornelius the Great]

By "weeding out those who shouldn't be studying CS", I didn't mean those who weren't intelligent enough to grasp computer science. I meant those who lacked the interest and dedication to stick around.

"More importantly, the math that is presented to comp sci majors is presented by people who only learn math a certain way and as such only teach math a certain way."

I actually had this problem too. At my first college, I was CompSci/Engineering double major and it seemed that the math teachers just didn't get it. The math department was separated from the school of engineering. Thus, many of the math instructors were too focused on the theoretical aspects of calculus and not enough on how to present it to someone who just managed to get by on a lackluster high school math program (college algebra and trig). I didn't get proofs then, nor could I keep my head above water in those courses for very long. I actually had to take both calculus I and II twice.

I then transferred to a university whose CS and math were integrated (pardon the pun) into the same department. I had more reasonable teachers (career lecturers, not grad students or research professors) and I started getting tutoring, and it finally just clicked. Within a couple years, I was a math TA myself, grading papers and tutoring other students who were stuck in the same situation. Since I could relate, I was pretty successful at explaining calculus to students who had no clue before.

I'm now convinced that it doesn't take much intelligence to get a math degree, but rather perseverance and good instruction.

Re:Math?

[Anonymous Coward]

It's sort of like when basketball players take ballet, they generally don't throw a pirouette into their layup routine, but the discipline pays off in transferable skills such as grace and injury avoidance.

Ballet rubs off on them in other ways too...

Re:Math?

[chad.koehler]

I have to say that if you go into application programming, then the math definitely does seem like overkill.

However, Computer Science as a dicipline is much more involved than application programming (or even software engineering).

Take cryptography for instance: I defy you to "unlearn" all the math you have been tought, and then try to understand the DES (or AES or TwoFish) algorithm...

Re:Math?

[JollyFinn]

I'm college student N:th year in country where thats free. And I say that the amount of mathematics I've forgotten has really made some of my coding suck. I may be genious in some ways of coding but every now and then I realize that OH I forgot it.
Think faster way of computing A^2-B^2 .I couldn't optimize that. But someone on slashdot said that its (A-B)*(A+B) and I felt some what embarrased, for not realizing that my self.
I may understand computers, I may understand algorithms, I may understand how CPU:s work at low level. But not lacking in simplifying the equations part.

If someone misses point you typicly have 1 multiplier and multiple ALU:s, so getting rid of multiplies is good thing.

As for 3D programmers, [rare breed programmer] you need to do some algorithm manipulation with matrixes, with some zeroelements waiting to be optimized away...

Then there is some financial statistics, people ask you to program correctly. I'd say some math is required for those especially on risk analysis or something like that...

In packing and encrypting some higher mathematics is usefull....

I think mathematics appear in many small questions that programmers are doing, it isn't probably stellar university level mathematics at that point but all the small steps the mathematician do automaticly that matters. You need to practice them enough to make them pretty much automatic for them. It isn't even intellectually challenging mathematical problem. Its in million small places where ALGEBRA matters. And while algebra is pretty common for atleast half the people know how to do it while in school, the ability to do that is pretty rare few years after school. And programmers need to do it without even stopping to think, and just realize how it goes.

You don't realize how important math is for programmers until you have actually seen how LACK of basic mathematic skills have hindered someone. In high school I was in top 1% of this country in math, and even I can see how lack of diciplined practice of mathematics have hindered my programming abilities long after that. And no its not that I couldn't program at all, its more like with little more mathematic skills could help me a lot.

Re:Math?

[sacrilicious]

I have a degree in math and CS and I hardly ever use anything I learned in math for software development. Maybe simple sums and if things are getting really advanced I'll divide by the number of elements for an average.

I do a variety of different kinds of programming. The amount of math usage you describe fits reasonably with the server/storage kind of things I've done, whereas 3D programming is more heavily mathematical.

From a somewhat more general perspecitve, it might be accurate to say that programming usually makes use of at least the kinds of skills used to solve algebra problems, i.e. keeping track of quantities as variables and -- in effect -- implementing equations.

Put another way: if an interview candidate wasn't conversant with algebra, I'd never hire them for virtually any programming task. If they didn't know trig, I'd never hire them for 3D basic modeling and rendering work. If they didn't know calculus, I'd never hire them for 3D special effects work.

Then there are aspects of programming that don't seem to correlate well with math so much... like distributed systems, cache design (still need algebra profiency, but nothing more advanced as far as math). Off the top of my head I can't think of what formal studies would play well into these kinds of programming.

User Interface design is something that might be doable by someone without even algebra skills, as long as they didn't have to prototype their sketches. For UI, I'd think that various specialized art and visual design classes might be relevant.

Re:Math?

[gentlemen_loser]

It sounds like we had similar experiences. I wish that I also ran across the better math profs ;-)

Re:Math?

[Krakhan]

Math can help with analyzing things like performance and also may be necessary for specific applications, but being able to design a set of logical steps to reach a solution (and then encode those steps in the syntax of a programming language) is what most of software engineering is about.

And real math somehow does not involve this step?

Re:Math?

[HunterZ]

Of course it does; I'm not sure what you're saying. In both software engineering and math, logic is used as a problem-solving tool. This does not mean that math itself is necessarily used in software engineering or vice versa.

Re:Math?

[russotto]

The major problem with proving your programs mathematically is that the proof is at least as complex and error-prone as the program.

Further, to get code to live up to rigorous mathematical analysis, you'd first need a formal mathematical description of what the code is supposed to do. Good luck with that. And once you've gotten the code proven, it may STILL not work (even if your proof was correct) because your mathematical model of the program didn't take into account limitations of the real program, such as decimal precision.

Re:Math?

[Krakhan]

Ah, okay, I was just a bit curious about that. Though, I do agree that in a lot of jobs, you're not going to use stuff like Fourier Analysis day to day unless you're dealing with stuff like digital signal processing of course.

Re:Math?

[HunterZ]

Of course, formal computer science eduaction usually entails at least some post-calculus level math education, but I think this is mostly to try to get you to pick up on the logic skills needed for both, while also gaining some analytical tools.

Now if someone could just explain why the hell I had to take a year of physics, especially from research professors who couldn't speak English and weren't very interested in teaching the material...

Re:Math?

[h4ck7h3p14n37]

For my computer science degree, I needed to take the following math courses:

• Calculus
• Calculus II
• Multi-variable Calculus
• Differential Equations
• Linear Equations
• Algorithms

In addition, there was the typical coursework in computational theory: Turing machines, grammars, deterministic finite automata, non-deterministic finite automata, etc. Not really Math, but somewhat similar.

None of this is really used directly by me on a day to day basis. Sure I need to know algorithms, complexities and data structures, but I'm doing system administration, database administration, release management, command-line tool development and website development using Java. Most of the problems I learned how to solve in college have already been solved for me in the form of APIs and language features.

Really, I see my development job as putting Lego pieces together and my administration and release management jobs are more of an art and more similar to something like what an auto mechanic would do. Understand how the piece of machinery is built, how it breaks, how to fix it, how you can make it break gracefully and how to jury rig it in a pinch.

Out of all of the math, algorithms and linear equations are probably the most useful. Unfortunately I'm not doing high performance computing at the moment, so I don't need to use my linear equations skills to decompose a complex function into a system of linear equations that can be solved using only integer operations. Likewise, I'm not writing Quick Sort or building a linked list or tree data structure and accompanying API.

cool -- maybe I won't quit afterall

[boxlight]

Cool news that I have the best job in America. Maybe I won't quit and open a computer store afterall. :-)

boxlight

Assuming you can find such a job in Ohio...

[Anonymous Coward]

... then perhaps it is a good job. I will never know as long I live in this lousy state, though.

Then why do well all complain so much?

[Anonymous Coward]

If its the best job, why do most of us complain about it so much?
When you think about it, it sure beats shoveling dung for a living.
I guess we're all just a bunch of whiners.

What advanced math?

[defile]

Most computer software requires nothing more than simple arithmetic.

There are exceptions such as in finance and 3d graphics, but come on.

This mentality is really annoying. The math office in my high school wouldn't let me take the C++ class because I had not taken the requisite Calculus class first. Even though I was writing C++ code in my part time job! (Out of spite, I'll mention that I took the state C++ AP test and went on to score the highest in New York. Take THAT Mrs. Lechner!)

Pfft.

Re:What advanced math?

[Punto]

finance and 3d graphics, but come on.

I agree on 3d graphics, but not even finance requires 'advanced' math skills. Last time I had to use math (collision of a segment with a circle for a 2d game), the math involved was stuff I learned on high school (and not some fancy private place, just an average 3rd-world country public high school). And I didn't even have to actually know all the details, just understand the basic concepts, enough to let the math software solve the equations for me.

Sure, for a lot of specific problems, a mathematical aproach will be a lot simpler and optimal (like the typical "how many bricks does it take to build a piramid?"), but most of the times it's enough to recognize that you need math, and understand the basic concepts.

Re:What advanced math?

[Anonymous Coward]

Finance requires knowledge of measure-theoretic based probability theory, stochastic processes and the numerical solution of partial differential equations, at least for option pricing, and a solid knowledge of inference and regression for something like statistical arbitrage.

If this was high-school level mathematics in your country, I'm in awe...

Re:What advanced math?

[RingDev]

I've worked on some nasty accounting projects, and there is some nasty math involved. Not nasty in the sence of advanced calculas math. It's nasty in the proofs kind of way. You need to take huge and complex accounting formulas and break them down step by step (just like doing proofs).

So I can see requiring Algebra II as a pre-req, but advanced calc/trig is over kill even in the financial world. It's good to have taken a calc and trig class, just in case you do run into some forcasting model that makes assumptions based on curves, but for the most part, you'll never see it.

-Rick

Re:What advanced math?

[pclminion]

Most computer software requires nothing more than simple arithmetic. There are exceptions such as in finance and 3d graphics, but come on.

2d graphics, too. A large part of my job is designing and implementing fast 2d rendering of certain file formats. It involves a lot of matrix math, error analysis, multiple (and confusing) coordinate systems, etc.

Writing code which generates PDF files (I designed our humble little PDF library) feels an awful lot like math at times, but what's really going on is that it's sucking the life force from your brain ;-)

Re:What advanced math?

[Anonymous Coward]

OK, so you're proficient with the C++ programming language.

Why bother taking the C++ class in your high school then?

Re:What advanced math?

[DoofusOfDeath]

I think it depends on whether you want to be a software engineer, or a computer scientist.

I've done programming for manufacturing, IT services, .com product/service providers, and military employers. I have a bachelor's in math+cs, master's in cs, and I'm working toward a PhD in cs. Here's what I've found...

For software engineering, I had nearly no need for math. I mean, you might do a little back-of-envelope multiplication to estimate disk storage needs or batch job durations, but that was it. The hard work for those jobs was making good software / database designs, avoiding concurrency / threading issues, etc.

For the military work, that's when I went from being mostly a developer to being mostly a computer scientist. THAT'S where the heavy math came in to play. Heavy statistics (for making sense of sensors), diff. eq. / vector calculus (for dealing with physics models), optimization theory (for planning future actions), etc.

I still haven't figured out why high school programming teachers stress so heavily the connection between math and programming. For most software engineering jobs, you could have stopped at high-school Pre-Calculus. Just not if you want to be a computer scientist.

Re:What advanced math?

[rgravina]

Put it this way... you can write good software with nothing more than simple arithmetic but you can often write great software with a better understanding of math. When you see some code based on a math principle, it's often short, to the point, elegant and efficient. As an example, I can imagine someone with no math knowledge, but still a being good coder, create a tree data structure for storing something-or-other that requires this type of structure and be able to write code that walks it and does something useful. They may even use a vistor design pattern for this and bask in glow of their own intelligence. But there's no guarantee that this code is as good as it could be. A programmer that understands trees and graph theory might be able to come up with efficient ways to deal with this data structure that a programmer who doesn't understand this math can not.

I have to admit, my maths skills are horrible but I'm doing my best these days to re-educate myself and try and retain it this time! Unfortunately, like many other programmers, I couldn't see the applicability of this math when I was studying it! I'm sure my high school and university teachers/lecturers must have tried to tell me this at the time but I just didn't get it.

Perhaps someone with more maths skills than I can verify that I'm not fill of it? I wouldn't want to be the blind man leading the blind here!

Re:What advanced math?

[Anonymous Coward]

It depends on what you consider math. I consider graph theory to be math. Probability and statistics are heavily used in machine learning and artificial intelligence. What about automata theory for scanning and parsing or state machines for control? Or number theory for crypto. What about complexity theory? Do you ever weigh the asymptoptic complexity of your coding choices? Information theory for analyzing communication, compression and also machine learning. Set theory for databases. All kinds of discrete math go into compilers and programming language design. Mathematical logic for formal methods. Computer science is inundated in math.

Re:What advanced math?

[Forseti]

All of this is absolutely true, and they're all skills that you learn while earning a CS degree. While I agree that this is probably the type of hard math that the article was talking about, the sad reality is that most CS students will go on to become software engineers and never use any of these skills, as they will never program in any of the fields you mention. In fact, These are precisely the types of skills that require extra time to use, and are frowned upon in this RAD-oriented world.

Besides, I don't think these skills are what makes a good software engineer, you probably only need one person with these skills on a development team. Every software engineer worthy of the name that I've ever met was good at his/her job because of a completely different skillset.

Re:What advanced math?

[Seraphim_72]

It just isn't annoying - it is downright dumb. Yes, CS is the bastard child of Mathematics, but we have grown up now, we can walk on our own two legs. When I went for my BS in CS, I got to speak to the head of IT recruitment for the U of MN. They had at the time the requirement that you have 4 5cr classes of calculus and 2 5cr classes of calculus based physics. Which if you add it all up is one total year of pure math/physics (15cr/sem 2sems/yr) I though of all the computer languages out there (yes, I know learn one set of principles - apply to many languages) But add in all the theory, the algorythms, and Discrete Math ( I would still like to have more course work in discrete) and I had to wonder. So I asked why in the world would you require a year of this stuff? His answer, and I quote "To turn out well rounded graduates.". I asked if the U offered literature, anthropology, philosophy, forien languages. He said yes and looked confused. I walked away.

Sera

Re:What advanced math?

[CodeArtisan]

I agree on 3d graphics, but not even finance requires 'advanced' math skills.

I take it, you have never been involved with the quant desk, advanced alogrithmic trading or pricing of some of the more exotic options out there.

Re:What advanced math?

[Anonymous Coward]

Out of spite, I'll mention that I took the state C++ AP test and went on to score the highest in New York.

I have trouble believing that you were the only person in all of New York to score a 5 on the Computer Science AP test. However, being that you were likely the only one taking the "C++ AP test", I'll have to conceed you may have gotten the highest score on that one.

Re:What advanced math?

[Arandir]

I'm a literature major who had to flunked calculus once and dropped out twice. Yet I'm a software engineer for a major company.

Re:What advanced math?

[SpinyNorman]

What you're describing isn't a a computer scientist, but rather an programmer working in a field where math is needed.

One could say the same about any specialized domain where the programmer needs to know about the domain itself as well as core programming (& maybe computer scientist) skills. Just because someone working on a radar system needs advanced math and someone else working in the bioinformatics field needs a knowledge of genetics doesn't make advanced math or genetics a prequesite to be considered a programmer or computer scientist.

I would say the difference between computer scientist and programmer is really mostly one of skill level and focus. A computer scientist is someone capable of designing and analyzing algorithms, data structures, programming techniques, etc, etc, and who is concerned with the art of programming in of itself as much as it's application.

Re:What advanced math?

[Krakhan]

And what kind of work do you do?

Re:What advanced math?

[tignom]

Why is everyone on this thread assuming that "math" just means arithmetic, geometry and calculus? I took a lot of those clases on the way to my CS degree and I don't use very much of them at work. But I also took discrete math and some algorithms courses that applied it. Even if you're not thinking about discrete math, you're probably using it a lot when you're coding. It's one of those things that happens in a back corner of your brain without always requiring conscious awareness of what you're doing.

Re:What advanced math?

[alder]

For software engineering, I had nearly no need for math.

Probably you did not have any immediate or direct need. Yet, if you look under the hood, advanced math shapes(ed) your brain the same way physical exercises shape your body. You may not have a need for strong and flexible muscles in your day-to-day life and/or in every activity, yet your behaviour will be different and some choises you make (and even have a chance to make :-)) will be "shaped" by your body. It's the same with your brain. You may not need to calculate integrals or solve differential equations every day or in every task or ever, yet your brain being capable of this, will be able to make even "simple" decisions on a much higher level of perception.

P.S. And it's not just math - 80% of the "useless junk" I was studing at the university helps me immensely to see not just a problem at hands, but also where it is in the bigger picture and how each particular solution reflects back on that bigger picture.

Re:What advanced math?

[Money for Nothin']

Exactly. I did a BSCS with a minor in Econ., (so I got a mix of the two camps of math -- deterministic (in which a conclusion has one right answer) and non-deterministic (in which a conclusion is based on a bunch of data from which a probability is found)), and as a working junior software engineer writing generally platform-specific middleware, I have never used any math beyond algebra.

Geometry? Trig? Nope: I'm not writing the GUI libs, I'm building off of them in C++, C#, and Java.

Logarithms? Natural logs? e? Those are for natural scientists and people analyzing real-world, chaotic data. I don't do that; I write dorky business apps.

How about Calculus... Derivatives? Integrals? Forget it: my business apps aren't analyzing rates-of-change or finding the area in a non-linear graph.

How about statistics? Mostly no: like another poster commented, the most-advanced statistics I do are to slice up data into the right sets, then take a mean of the values in it. It's a lot of pointer manipulation, but math it is not. (Now, in my personal life, it's a totally different story. I use every bit of statistics I can remember and competently understand: I run regression analyses on my personal finances and correlations between all the various data I keep about myself, for instance. I frankly don't know enough statistical techniques to do everything I'd like.)

In that sense, mathematically-speaking, my Econ. minor has been more useful than my CS major...

The *ONLY* good reason I see for teaching CS majors math at the same level as undergrad engineers and scientists and graduate-level Economics/Finance students is that it does develop a rigorous, specific manner of thought, even if the subject matter is irrelevant outside the realm of analysis of naturally-generated data. But then, lots and lots of work in programming will achieve the same effect and be more relevant. So why, beyond the argument of teaching rigorous thought, should somebody waste the time on the math if they don't intend to do software development for these fields?

The only reason I see is the argument of future-prediction; the argument that "you never know when you might need it." But that's an argument based on nothing more rigorous than pure guesswork -- hardly an argument that is in character with the rigor usually associated with mathematics.

Re:What advanced math?

[hugg]

If you want to limit your career options to database-driven web apps or system scripting, sure -- go ahead and forget the math. Just remember that computers are fancy calculators, after all, and they are all about the math.

OTOH, if you want to be known as the guy who solves the tough problems, you should learn the math. For instance, my current job involves dealing with all kinds of power-electronics measurements and figuring out things like the dynamics of battery cells. Since I have some mathematical background, I can interpret papers and derive equations to solve some of my problems.

The things I don't quite know, like Kalman filters, I can kind of understand and decide whether or not we need an expert on the subject, because I've come across similar concepts in the past. I know about different types of filtering from audio processing theory, and I can draw those parallels to understand other systems. I can even talk about "integrals" and impress people, when I know it's just the area under a curve.

I don't think it's a question of "computer scientist" vs "software engineer" either. An engineer leverages their knowledge of math and science to solve real problems. A scientist leverages existing knowledge to derive more knowledge.

It's a question of being a bad-ass engineer vs. a code monkey :)

Re:What advanced math?

[Arandir]

I just told you, I'm a "software engineer". I do coding, but I also do the stuff that makes the coding work. Such as analysis and design, requirements and specifications, yada, yada, yada.

Math skillz

[mightypenguin]

I don't really see this amazing need for math skillz. I don't think I've used any calculus at my job, and I'm not even writing just business apps but also some basic software drivers and industrial automation stuff. College algebra is all I've had to use so far. But I appreciate the talk up of how amazing my job is :) I'm not even sure Linus Torvalds has ever had to use calculus in Linux.

Now we DO have to work with funky algorithms and I guess studying math helps with that somehow...

Re:Math skillz

[scolby]

Now we DO have to work with funky algorithms and I guess studying math helps with that somehow...

Yeah, by helping us figure out how much money we're going to make.

Re:Math skillz

[gnuLNX]

I guess it depends on what line of coding you are in. I do scientific coding and it is quite heavy on math and algorithms. Makes it very enjoyable for me. I think I would get board writing business logic rules...but everyone has their own special niche.

Re:Math skillz

[thrillseeker]

Now we DO have to work with funky algorithms and I guess studying math helps with that somehow...

Yeah, by helping us figure out how much money we're going to make.

Not enough according to yourself and too much according to the guy that has to pay you ... in other words, whatever the market determines it should be.

Re:Math skillz

[saddino]

Most of the actual advanced math in programming is so intuitive, you probably don't realize you're using it: discrete structures, set theory, topology logic, etc. If you can design an efficient, optimized well abstracted OO framework then your using math "skillz" whether you know it or not.

Re:Math skillz

[qwijibo]

How much you're going to make is pretty easy to calculate. It's how you spin all of that on your taxes so you can keep more of it that requires some fairly advanced number theory and bistromathics.

Re:Math skillz

[pedalman]

" I'm not even sure Linus Torvalds has ever had to use calculus in Linux."

Does calculus even run on Linux?

Re:Math skillz

[DoofusOfDeath]

I don't think that's right. Acting in a way that's consistent with a theory is not the same thing as knowing the theory. And if you don't know the theory, you're likely to be unaware of the advanced conclussions and applications of that theory.

Consider relational algebra normal forms. Anyone who's halfway decent at database design knows to avoid things like unjustified duplication of information in the database, because of issues like consistency, confusing design, and storage space. Someone who knows that is acting consistently with 2nd Normal Form (or something - I don't even remember at this point.) But that person does NOT necessarily know 2nd Normal Form. Or 3rd Normal Form. Or BCNF. Etc.

This reminds me of something from (I think) a Douglas Adams book. He said that calculus isn't hard, because anyone who can figure out where to position a glove to catch a baseball is performing calculus. That's not correct (for most people). Although calculus is one way to figure out where a ball will fly, most people use some other intuitive, non-calculus process to figure out where to put their baseball glove. I think Adams was wrong in the same way the parent posting is.

And this is important, because someone who knows calculus can both calculate a ball's flight path, and determine the volume of a sphere. Some people who can catch baseballs, however, cannot with perfect accuracy calculate the volume of a sphere.

Re:Math skillz

[Senzei]

Does calculus even run on Linux?

It used to, but no wanted to be responsible for Integrating changes.

Re:Math skillz

[P3NIS_CLEAVER]

My biggest programming problem is naming things well. Taxonomy skills are partially math but also partially language.

Re:Math skillz

[Anonymous Coward]

Sure, because the term "math" covers so much ground.

But, in all my programing career, I have used Calculus once (and had to break out my old calculus book to remember what I was doing), I used some trig in a non-career related personal project, and mostly used basic algebra.

I use logic and descrete mathmatics all the time - but I consider that part of "Computer Science" and not really "Math".

Re:Math skillz

[Anonymous Coward]

Now we DO have to work with funky algorithms and I guess studying math helps with that somehow...

It has actually been the other way around for me. I started doing better in math when I got more in depth into programming. I had a weak math background, and the concepts of using functions and replacing things in forumulas in computer programs helped me a great deal in my math courses.

Re:Math skillz

[Procrastin8er]

You probably don't see an amazing need for English "skillz" either....Just Kidding ;-)

Re:Math skillz

[sgt_doom]

I suspect you meant: Integral Changes...

Re:Math skillz

[Anonymous Coward]

If you can design an efficient, optimized well abstracted OO framework then your using math "skillz" whether you know it or not.

Too bad you're not using your grammatical "skillz".

Re:Math skillz

[Senzei]

I suspect you meant: Integral Changes...

I have no idea what you mean. I am talking about programming, where we do not need math to help us differentiate between job functions. Although our work may have initially been derived from the study of math, by now it has managed to integrate so many other concepts that the set of knowledge domains involved is much greater than just math.

Re:Yez

[galenoftheshadows]

Objection, your honor! Heresay! :-P

They really screwed this one up...

[Anonymous Coward]

I don't see Male Porn Star anywhere on the list...

Re:They really screwed this one up...

[galenoftheshadows]

Yeah, but the problem there is who wants to see some scrawny nerd guy or fat old bearded nerd guy in a g-string? None of us could make it as male porn star, no girl in her right mind would screw us, especially on tape, unless they're really sick...

Galen - The scrawny nerd guy, who happens to (sadly) rent from Dan - The fat old bearded nerd guy.

Re:They really screwed this one up...

[surban]

Apparantly that's becuase being a porn star doesn't involve telecommuting

Re:They really screwed this one up...

[bhsurfer]

I could make it! What's Ron Jeremy got that I don't got?

Oh...

Re:They really screwed this one up...

[cavalierlwt]

There's always the job of Nipple Tweaker!
http://www.boreme.com/boreme/funny-2002/nipple_twe ak.php?gobackto=../funny-collections/celebrities-l opez-p1.php?backid=v275
Doesn't require you to be good looking, it's less strenuous, yet it's still quite a rewarding job.

Re:They really screwed this one up...

[Surt]

That's because as a career ...... ... ...
it sucks! (rimshot!)

On a more serious note, as a male porn star life is nothing but pressure to get involved in the gay porn, that's where all the money is. Plus as a career, it's short lived, most can't get any gigs past 25.

Re:They really screwed this one up...

[borkus]

Actually, it's not as great a job as you think. Since the female stars are the name draws, they pretty much pick who they will work with. Male performers make less than the female actors for the same amount of time on camera.

Interestingly, Viagara has changed the industry a great deal. Where before they'd hire any ugly shmoe who could become "camera ready" on demand, Viagara has made that qualification less important. Now, male performers have to look good...and be willing to take double or more the recommended dose of Viagara.

I guess all that Viagara is tax-deductible though...

Re:They really screwed this one up...

[Anonymous Coward]

Well it did say BEST job, not BREAST job.

Cue the money shot!

Re:They really screwed this one up...

[Lord_Dweomer]

Good points...thought I'd add a couple more...

Like the fact that unless you're a big name male porn start or do your own net porn site starring yourself...your pay will be absolute shit. The real money goes to the women.

Then add on the fact that you have to have to be attractive and well-endowed, which cancels out most of the population (although I wouldn't be surprised if 90% of Slashdot claimed to be both). Plus there's the high risk of STDs, despite testing...and the final point is that when it comes down to it...when you're in a porn shoot, after a while its JUST a job. And as with any job it can be tedious and unenjoyable, especially when you have little to no say in your partner. Yeah...its getting paid to have sex, but there is almost no emotion in it...a lot of it is stop and go so they can get the shot just right, and its in a lot of weird positions that happen to work well for the camera.

Re:They really screwed this one up...

[Anonymous Coward]

Plus, your co-workers regularly screw you over, you have to do nearly all your work before you're able to distribute the load to others and they make you work like a dog sometimes.

I Coulda Told You

[carrier lost]

Software Engineers Ranked Best Job in America

Well, duh!

MjM

Concentration of the pool

[StevenHenderson]

I am guessing since most of these jobs have been farmed out, it has diluted the dissent in the job pool.

I guess when that happens, the few people that still have jobs are quite grateful and enamored with them.

Re:Concentration of the pool

[Milton Waddams]

Bollocks. Outsourcing didn't happen nearly as much as slashdotters like to piss and moan about.

Re:Concentration of the pool

[StevenHenderson]

Bollocks. Outsourcing didn't happen nearly as much as slashdotters like to piss and moan about.

Bollocks? I will take that to mean you are from the UK.

Now, contrary to the popular belief, a lot of jobs (at my company at least) are being outsourced/offshored to you.

Re:Concentration of the pool

[Abcd1234]

Well, lucky us, then (says a happily employed Canadian). :)

Re:Concentration of the pool

[Milton Waddams]

I'm actually from Ireland. Close but no cigar :)

Yeah, in Dublin here we've got IBM, Microsoft, Google, Sun, Yahoo, Amazon, Cisco... I'm sure there are many others who I haven't even heard of. Even in those companies though, it seems that the 'sexy' IT jobs are still in America.

The consensus amongst IT workers in America that most of the jobs have been shipped off to India isn't true though. The IT sector is doing pretty well from all reports.

Re:Concentration of the pool

[StevenHenderson]

Yeah, in Dublin here we've got IBM, Microsoft, Google, Sun, Yahoo, Amazon, Cisco... I'm sure there are many others who I haven't even heard of. Even in those companies though, it seems that the 'sexy' IT jobs are still in America.

Grass in always greener, eh? :)

How can this be?

[Brent_Litzer]

I didn't know I was so happy. Other jobs must suck. Sounds like they only interview people at gaming companies. http://money.cnn.com/2006/04/07/pf/bestjobs_moneym ag_bestjob/index.htm

Re:How can this be?

[GreggBz]

Wow, maybe your post is irony but there are plenty of horror stories about working at EA.
Game development has become stylish and lots of people think it's the greenest grass in the pasture. I beg to differ. It's highly competitive; lessers tend to get weeded out pretty quickly, especially since you product is in the public domain. It can be enormously stressful.. There are so many elements that need to converge to create the final deliverable product. Most internal business applications don't have sound, music, packaging, animations, art and story lines, and you really don't have as much creative license as you might think. Teams are so big, you are compartmentalized into a small portion of the bigger picture. You might spend months coding AI routines.

Of course, I only write games as a hobby (which is pretty fun), and all of the above is second hand here say, but computer game development should be taken seriously as pull your hair out, bleeding edge computer science.

Houston, we have a problem...

[pongo000]

The best job I ever had (air traffic controller) didn't even break the top 50...the worst job(s) I've ever had were as a software engineer (or programmer, whatever the hell you want to call it).

Something's not right here...

Re:Houston, we have a problem...

[Anonymous Coward]

Air traffic controllers are notorious for having the highest suicide rates. Maybe that's why they didn't make the list.

Best job?

[Anonymous Coward]

Better than porn star???

Outsiders Looking In

[AMindLost]

Isn't this a case of people outside the industry looking in and seeing only the 'ideal' that a job/career represents without seeing it in its entirety? Any job can provide enjoyment,satisfaction and fulfillment to a particular group of people but if you're not the right kind of person then that job is never going to reach that ideal.

Re:Outsiders Looking In

[cowscows]

Yeah, but some jobs can provide that fulfillment and also pay better or have more flexible hours. I enjoy working as an architect just as much as one of my friends loves working as a programmer. But that doesn't change the fact that a few years out of school, his job opportunities pay about twice what mine do, right out of the gate. We're both smart guys, we're both willing to work hard, it's just that the sad truth is that no matter how hard I work, my potential pay scale falls well short of his.

All that being said, I would rather design buildings than write software, which is why my degree is in architecture and not computer engineering or whatever. It'd just be nice if my time and effort was financially compensated a little better.

Follow the money...

[scottsk]

So why does Money magazine and ... hmmm, salary.com, hey hey there's a clue ... want to promote "software engineer" (a deliciously vague tite) as the best job in America? I don't know about Money magazine, but you can guess where salary.com's income comes from. ("Salary.com profitably sells advertising and licenses online content to hundreds of websites via its syndication network.") If we traced the money trail long enough, it would be fascinating to see where the hard currency comes from in this web. All I know is this flies in the face of all empirical evidence to the contrary, and ... that means it's time to follow the money.

Why would you want to telecommute?

[PIPBoy3000]

Telecommuting is overrated in a number of cases. I enjoy the ease of contact with my coworkers. Part of the draw of my current profession is that I work with funny, intelligent people.

Working at home would likely be filled with endless distractions, mostly in the form of a two and seven-year-old who want to play Princess or Legos, respectively. Rarely does my coworker dress up in pink and demand they be called Princess Dave.

Re:Why would you want to telecommute?

[iceperson]

"Telecommuting is overrated in a number of cases. I enjoy the ease of contact with my coworkers. Part of the draw of my current profession is that I work with funny, intelligent people. Working at home would likely be filled with endless distractions, mostly in the form of a two and seven-year-old who want to play Princess or Legos, respectively. Rarely does my coworker dress up in pink and demand they be called Princess Dave." please stay on topic, we're talking about Software Engineers here...

Re:Why would you want to telecommute?

[jahudabudy]

Rarely does my coworker dress up in pink and demand they be called Princess Dave.

Man, I need a job at your company! Actually, I don't mind calling him Princess Dave, it's the mandatory curtsying...

Re:Why would you want to telecommute?

[Anonymous Coward]

"Rarely does my coworker dress up in pink and demand they be called Princess Dave."

You're just working in the wrong kind of office....

Re:Why would you want to telecommute?

[frank_adrian314159]

Rarely does my coworker dress up in pink and demand they be called Princess Dave.

Yeah. Those casual Fridays are a bitch, aren't they?

Re:Why would you want to telecommute?

[toad3k]

This is actually a point I never considered. I learn a lot of new things from listening to chatter around the office. Boss hacks tivo this, apple comes out with that, etc...

I would imagine I would find it incredibly difficult to build up a list of valuable contacts if I never saw my coworkers' faces.

Re:Why would you want to telecommute?

[hal2814]

Do you bring your kids to the office with you? Then why are you expecting to watch them at home while you are working? Telecommuting is about working from home, not doing a few work-related tasks while you enjoy the rest of your day. It's about saving time and money on the commute and on office space. If you're getting distracted at home, then your home office is not set up properly or you're not working in that home office.

Re:Why would you want to telecommute?

[teneighty]

Telecommuting is overrated in a number of cases. I enjoy the ease of contact with my coworkers. Part of the draw of my current profession is that I work with funny, intelligent people.

If this is software developers we're talking about, intelligent I can believe, but funny? If it's true, I want to know where you work. You'll have my resume within the hour.

Re:Why would you want to telecommute?

[Anonymous Coward]

I'm going to save you a few awkward moments in your youngest's tene years: you better sign him up for drama school now.

Re:Why would you want to telecommute?

[ahmusch]

You must not work in San Francisco.

Re:Why would you want to telecommute?

[Xugumad]

Is it also just me (and I'll accept that it is) who has a hell of a lot more space in their office (even given it's shared), than their house? I mean, I have a bedroom, not an office, at home, and it's somewhere under half the size of my office at work...

Re:Why would you want to telecommute?

[ucblockhead]

If you have kids, then your home office needs to be a door with a lock. You also need a spouse that understands that when you are in your home office, working, you are not available.

Re:Why would you want to telecommute?

[Grishnakh]

You must live in Silicon Valley. Not all of us live in shoebox apartments.

Re:Why would you want to telecommute?

[Anonymous Coward]

Now, THAT's irony.

Re:Why would you want to telecommute?

[Ansonmont]

I am working/posting to slashdot/ in my home office right now. Wife and 2 daughters in other part of the house. Normally they are good about not bothering me, but last week one or both of my daughters have been home sick each day. My wife also works, outside the house, 2-3 days a week. Guess who satyed with the kids when she had to work. Altogther, it is a plus for me, but it has its down sides. Seeing your associates has real value. It just comes down to what makes the most sense.

I am in tech sales. 100% commision, so it is real easy for my boss to track how I am doing. I think that is probably the key factor for managers/bosses.

Re:Why would you want to telecommute?

[MCraigW]

You also need a spouse that understands that when you are in your home office, working, you are not available.

Yeah, I can't work from home, because my wife refuses to understand that.

Re:Why would you want to telecommute?

[mcrbids]

Telecommuting is about working from home, not doing a few work-related tasks while you enjoy the rest of your day. It's about saving time and money on the commute and on office space. If you're getting distracted at home, then your home office is not set up properly or you're not working in that home office.

Either that, or you've actually got the right idea about working at home!

See, I telecommute as a software engineer largely because I get interrupted by my children from time to time, I hear them talk excitedly about the toad they found in the side yard, I hear them squeal in the pool, etc.

It's the point to working at home for me!

I get to be effective and work the long hours, but still get to be "dad" and enjoy my family. For me, the best of both worlds. My family members all know that when I'm on the phone, to keep the noise down, and when I find myself getting distracted too much, I put on headphones playing my faviorite MP3s. I certainly don't work at home so I can "relax all day" - I definitely put in the time it takes to succeed.

But it's difficult for me to understand the idea of working 40 hours + 10 hours commute AWAY FROM HOME... why do people accept this? I never want to get used to that idea, and would rather take a cut in pay than go for this. So far, that's not a choice I've had to make.

Re:Why would you want to telecommute?

[Richard Frost]

GP: Working at home would likely be filled with endless distractions, mostly in the form of a two and seven-year-old who want to play Princess or Legos, respectively

P: If you're getting distracted at home, then your home office is not set up properly or you're not working in that home office.


I don't have kids, and I can tell you don't, either.

Re:Why would you want to telecommute?

[hal2814]

I have two kids but like I said elsewhere in this post, they have a healthy dose of respect and fear for their father.

Re:Why would you want to telecommute?

[A10n]

Its pretty hard for me to work from home. Too many distractions, too many fun things to do (music, surf the web, slashdot, chat, food, etc...) I can't get anything done. Maybe I have ADD :)

Its really hard to discipline myself to work from home and dedicate all my time to the task at hand.

Getting up early, taking a shower, eating breakfast and then going into the office makes a more productive day in my mind. Can't mess around in the office :)

What ever happened to SUN and their mobile office program? I wonder if they dropped it after they realized employees weren't doing there jobs :)

THE Best job in America

[Anonymous Coward]

Is getting paid to read Slashdot. Just don't tell my boss.

Of course, there's still a gradient

[saddino]

Even being a "Software Engineer" varies from the "coding monkey" who gets it from the man, or the "unemployed contractor" who can't find a job, to the "game company project manager" or "I run my own successful software business" types.

All in all, it's a great job, agreed. But there's always a better title in the field, with better perks and better pay, and better everything.

So keep coding your butts off. ;-)

Re:Of course, there's still a gradient

[2short]

There is certainly a variety, but I'm not sure the top is what you think. Of all the software engineers I've known, the most over-stressed, under-paid and under-appreciated were "Game company project manager". The work was, at best, not much different from non-game coding, but the deadlines were more unreasonable; the hordes of others willing to do the job for less because it sounded cool were ever-present; and the corporate politics were triple-nasty. The only real advantage was that the end product (a game) might be really cool, but the odds very heavily favored the project getting shut down before completion and the team canned.

"I run my own successful software business" could certainly be good if you like running a business, but it's not software engineering.

Overall, I'm pretty happy with my job - fairly senior developer at a successful small software company. The software we make isn't sexy or cool like games, but that doesn't make much difference to the day-to-day work. It is probably a bonus for my paycheck; certainly for my job security. Other people run the business, and if we keep going as well as we have been they'll get stinky rich and I'll just be quite well off. That's OK, I wouldn't be any good at running a business; and at the end of the day, they keep thinking about work and I don't.

Hit the nail right on the head

[Mr.Surly]

I was going to post a comment just like this. After years of doing software development, the most complex math I've ever needed would be considered basic algebra.

Now, on my own time, I've done some graphics work, with the requisite trig stuff. Even then, this is all High School level math.

Re:Hit the nail right on the head

[Z1NG]

Sure, maybe you don't work with math everyday - but different jobs need different tools. A professor of mine introduced me to the Sylvester matrix a couple of days ago, and mentioned in the process that there are many applications in graphics. Also, I have seen error correcting codes that are atleast based on interesting aspects of number theory. And what about RSA? The math for this type of software may not be particuarly difficult, but I would say that the theories are not typically taught in high school.

Re:Hit the nail right on the head

[epee1221]

Seriously, what percent of the people working in the computing field ever use math like that?

My ideal job

[gregarican]

Would be the guy in "Office Space" who went on to make his Jump to Conclusions game. He had a secretary who would gather the requirements from the customers. Then the secretary would take the gathered requirements and pass them along to the engineers. Oh wait, he was laid off. Forget what I said...

Re:My ideal job

[rabbot]

Plus you need to have good people skills for that job :p

Re:My ideal job

[Senzei]

I'd say I would rather have Peter's job after he gets promoted. Forget about any and all work responsibilities, go fishing if you want, tell the people higher up how stupid the organization is, fat paycheck on friday.

Re:University Professor?

[Anonymous Coward]

College Professor (aka University Professor) is number two on the list, FYI.

Re:University Professor?

[guspasho]

University Professor (aka College Professor) is number 2. It's on the linked page, which you must not have even clicked on.

Re:Tar_Baby

[Anonymous Coward]

Is that supposed to be shocking and inflammatory? Because it's not. It's just stupid and badly written. You are not a troll - you are just an idiot.

Re:University Professor?

[Anonymous Coward]

Did either you or the moderator bother to RTFA? Uni professors are number 2 on the list....

Re:University Professor?

[edmicman]

Ummmm, college professor is number 2, for many of the reasons you mentioned....

Crap!

[0tim0]

So this is as good as it gets?!

--t

advanced math skills my hairy ass.

[Hohlraum]

'requires some pretty advanced math skills' thats the phrase SE's use to scare normal people into thinking they can't program. less programmers = more demand = better salaries. I'm glad people are scared shitless of computers it just means more money for me. :)

Re:advanced math skills my hairy ass.

[pclminion]

Sometimes you need to understand the math to prevent yourself from doing something stupid (like using a bubblesort to sort a 50,000 record database). It's not like we're inventing new math all the time but there are certain mathematical concepts that are applied on a daily basis, even if you aren't conciously aware of it. Simply choosing to use a tree instead of a list for a particular data structure is a decision guided by math.

Re:advanced math skills my hairy ass.

[Anonymous Coward]

I don't know about you, but I deal with tons of boolean logic in my programming.

Re:advanced math skills my hairy ass.

[aevans]

Those had better be some big records. Because my computer can bubble sort 50,000 items really quick, in javascript. If I had to do it very often though, I'd want to cache the result.

Re:University Professor?

['nother poster]

Well, since a large percentage of the U.S. population has a criminal record it doesn't really matter where you work, there will be ex-cons there to prey on you. Bubba thinks you got a purdy mouth.

Re:University Professor?

[stringycheese]

It's actually #2 - "college professors". If you read the page, you will see they include university level professors.

I guess one is right

[Badgerman]

It does take creative problem solving ability. Beyond that . . .

Having "evolved out" of programming into a PM role I found
1) I didn't use much math beyond the basics.
2) I COULD NOT just work where I wanted. I've said this before and I'll say it yet again - regions of the US vary highly.
3) Telecommuting? Not so much. I'm allowed more telecommuting leeway was a Project Manager.

And best job . . . I don't see that either.

*I* enjoyed it. However I also enjoy Project Management just as much (not that I don't program as a hobby still). However, it also had its limitations - among them insane hours, and issues of respect, comunication, and job stability. Frankly, in my management role I have LESS stress.

Re:University Professor?

[Anonymous Coward]

All the girls in the class room think he's hot
he shows up wearing the sandals with the white socks
he hears them giggling while he's got his back to the class
he thinks he's got an eraser mark on his ass
and all the girls from the hall show up to hear him talk
even though most of the time he's covered in chalk
Math Prof Rock Star!
woo hoo!
Math Prof Rock Star!
oh yeah!
Math Prof Rock Star!
who knew?
When he was young he never thought that he would be a
Math Prof Rock Star
And after hours outside of his office there's a line waiting
full of girls lining up to ask about their quadratic equations
she leans over the desk and twirls a pencil in her hair
complains that the grade he gave her was way unfair
and all the professors they laugh about it and wish him well
but the guys in the class are just jealous as hell
Math Prof Rock Star!
woo hoo!
Math Prof Rock Star!
oh yeah!
Math Prof Rock Star!
who knew?
He was voted most unlikely ever to become a
Math Prof Rock Star.
And at the end of the day he's got to sneak out the back
there's a stairway behind the machine where you get a snack
she finds him there, grabs him and kisses him hard
he doesn't fight it, he knows he's been caught
and she leads him down to the alley way to her car
it's kind of hard being married to a
Math Prof Rock Star!
woo hoo!
Math Prof Rock Star!
oh yeah!
Math Prof Rock Star!
who knew?
three point one four one five nine two six five three five
Math Prof Rock Star.

Livelyhoood = Source Code Rights

[Anonymous Coward]

Software engineering, or software development in general, is only lucrative if the developer gets to keep rights to his code (better yet, start your own company and offer programs rather than source code). Else he is just being conned out of his wares in a work-for-hire arrangement. Many of the job ads for developers of various types are obviously looking for means of production rather than just a programmer. It takes many years to get good development capability. Giving it away for just a paycheck is not prudent. It's a good reason to avoid software development and do something like system administration instead. Sys admins don't feel abused like software developers because there aren't any secrets to setting up servers compared to software development which is a highly creative process. Don't fall for the trick. Always maintain rights to your source code when it is such that it can be reused.

Math skills?

[scorp1us]

Start: Run: Calc
K: Run: kcalc

That's all the math skills I use on a daily basis.

puter nerd

[stacybro]

My 4 year old daughter walks up to me one day and say "Dad, Mom says you are a puter nerd, but it's OK cause you make lots of money..."

Re:puter nerd

[Lord_Dweomer]

'My 4 year old daughter walks up to me one day and say "Dad, Mom says you are a puter nerd, but it's OK cause you make lots of money...""

Well I guess its reassuring to know what your relationship is based upon without any pretenses.

Re:puter nerd

[bladesjester]

No kidding. The "I married a good provider" thing annoys me.

I've seen too many couples where that sentiment became more like "I married a guy who makes lots of money and is never home, so I can have both the cash and bed the people I *really* want to without his knowing" after a little while.

I've seen too many friends get hurt because of things like that, and they never even realized that it was happening until it was too late. It's sad and depressing, and probably yet another reason I tend to be cynical.

Re:puter nerd

[iwrasahp]

I hope you got a prenup.

Re:puter nerd

[Lord_Dweomer]

You can say that again. Thats why I'm almost tempted to get a shitbox "date" car when I am (hopefully) oneday rich. I would do what I could to hide my money to make sure someone wasn't with me for that. Its not that I don't mind sharing money with people, I love buying people gifts...its just that I want someone to be with me for me, not for my money.

Re:puter nerd

[bladesjester]

Honestly, I think some of the coolest people I've ever met (and either dated or just been friends with) were because I met them while I was out training martially or when I was helping teach fencers in college.

Money never entered into the conversations until a lot later, and then it was more like "so, what do you do when you aren't here?" But then, I tend to be a little non-standard in some things (and relationships seem to be one of them) *shrugs*.

Re:puter nerd

[Anonymous Coward]

Welcome to why rich and famous people tend to marry other rich and famous people. Because they can never be sure that someone isn't more in love with their wallet, they find people for whom they know that isn't true.

Then the irony becomes that they chose their partner in part based on the exact criteria that they did not want their partner choosing them by, as did their partner.

Re:puter nerd

[Arandir]

Would you prefer, "Dad, Mom says you're have a shitty job cleaning pools, but it's OK cause you have buns to die for..."

Re:puter nerd

[swb]

You don't get it. Romantic love is a myth, she will never be into you "for you", just as you're unlikely to be "into her" for reasons that don't have something to do with tits, ass and a willingness to not embarass you in front of your friends.

We're all driven by the biological imperitive -- reproduction. The priority list for women when it comes to reproduction unfortunately doesn't include your witty opinions, good taste in art or your skill at cunnilingus.

What it does include is your ability to provide for the material well-being of her offspring. If you can cover that one, you're golden. She'll tolerate your ignorant opinions, bad hygiene and clumsy sexual technnique; do it well enough, and she will make you believe that you have the logic of Aristotle, the body of Adonis and the skills of Rocco Siffredi.

Of course if you *can* provide for her offspring and you both know it, the trick of course is to make her sing for her supper.

Re:puter nerd

[Anonymous Coward]

yes.

Re:puter nerd

[Tablizer]

She can have her "Slick Noonday Bob", as long as I can have my pr0n.

Re:puter nerd

[nostriluu]

I'm not too surprised at your post, I've seen plenty of small minded people who've never met (or actually refuse to acknowledge) people outside their stereotypes, but the fact it was rated insightful is staggering.

I'm just trying to guess what backward place you could be from where someone wouldn't tell you to "fuck off" if you thought about "making them sing," and people don't trade and value each other's conscious attributes.

Re:puter nerd

[TheNumberless]

Just because you're not capable of love doesn't mean nobody is.

Re:puter nerd

[HeyLaughingBoy]

We're all driven by the biological imperitive -- reproduction

You evidently don't realize this, but some of us are quite capable of understanding that and yet going past it.
My wife, for example, is well aware that I am into her for her tits & ass -- I make sure to tell her that often and the smile on her face when I point out that the sight of her bending over in tight jeans has given me a hardon is a joy to behold. The point is we both know that even without the great T&A, she's an absolutely amazing and intelligent person who's completely spoiled me for other women and I'd marry her again in a heartbeat.

I know that the women you describe: those who only care about money and security exist. For your sake I hope you can understand that most of them are nothing like that.

Re:puter nerd

[aevans]

I think you meant "Welcome to why rich men marry pretty girls"

Enterprise Software Engineer

[Anonymous Coward]

I'm rarely ever given the chance to plan anything in advance (that's just how this place works) and "testing" is often done hot - launch once operational, and quickly work out the bugs while it's in use. I usually work either entirely alone, or with our admins to give them tools to their specifications and needs. No team, little oversight, and full responsibility for failures.

This makes you an Enterprise Software Engineer. You are given no time to plan anything in advance, and every bug is given top priority, even over other top priority bugs that you were almost done working on. You are probably also underpaid for your experience level.

Some companies are a lot more flexible.

[Richard Steiner]

My manager (who is quite technical and did all of the coding for our application until I arrived a little over a year ago) works between three and four days per week from home now, and if I wanted to I could work a couple of days a week from home myself.

At this point I'm choosing not to, but it's nice to have the option.

It's also nice to have a technical manager who has a clue. :-) I've been lucky in that regard for most of my career, though.

I think the saying goes

[Baldrson]

"Nice work if you can get it."

I like the title Programmer/Analyst better.

[Richard Steiner]

It describes what I do much more precisely than Programmer or Software Engineer. I don't pretend that what I do is "engineering", and it isn't -- it's far less precise than that -- but I do a LOT more than write code, since I also do design work, write test plans and do testing, do support work, write documentation, etc.

Re:I like the title Programmer/Analyst better.

[Flying pig]

And indeed here in the UK we have the Institution of Analysts and Programmers on one side, and the BCS on the other. (I'm an MIAP and that means more to me than my degree from a certain East Anglian University - because one gets you a job based on what you have achieved and the other gets you a job from snobbery.)

My own distinction? An experienced analyst/programmer is equivalent to an architect, a CS (and a graduate is not a computer scientist but may in time become one) is equivalent to a structural engineer. They are both needed and their skills are on the same level, but they do different parts of the system. I accept that the computer scientists can design a robust filing system, networking protocol etc.; I design the application that needs the capabilities to work.

Interesting, some close, some not...

[ursabear]

Some of the thoughts in the (teeny) article-let are interesting...

For example, lots of comments talk about the "math skills" statement. Indeed, actual math is uncommon in my daily software engineering, but being able to discover algorithms, utilize patterns and algebraic problem solving do go easily from math to software engineering.

Back, neck and eye problems? Check...

Long hours (at release time)? Check...

Fear of outsourcing? Check...

Telecommuting? Check (but I like the people interaction I get when I'm on-site)...

Youth-oriented? Sure... young minds are great things to behold and are always interesting to me... It keeps my perspective fresh, especially since there are fewer ivory-tower guys around (now that there the Red-Sea-of-layoffs closed in on my geographic area)...

Beyond my music, I really enjoy software as a career - and I get to work for a pretty great company, too.

scribbles relaced by algorithms

[deuterium]

It seems to me that computer algorithms operating on simple algebraic equations accomplish the same things as the visual/mental shortcuts done in something like calculus, while making the process more clear. All of math is just manipulating ratios, to various degrees of procedures and relationships. Computers are best at the simple stuff (adding), so it makes less sense to try applying advanced math to a computer function. You'll have to break it down to functions within the #Math library at some point. Just write the correct loops and conditionals.
Math evolved to help people manipulate numbers in a manner to best exploit the limits of human calculation. Now that we have computers, those symbolic systems aren't as germaine. The concepts still apply (geometry,statistics,set theory), but the process is different. In this light, perhaps schools should continue teaching math theory, but move manipulation and execution over to computer programming. Half the difficulty in learning math was remembering syntax and shortcuts that have nno analogue in the computer.

Yes Virginia, there is a little math involved..

[Tominva1045]

Being a software engineer is the best job I've ever had. Unfortunately, if you are good at it many companies will promote you into a management / marketing / political position where you lose your cutting-edge technical skills within 5 years.

Then if the company is bought out (happened to me) or goes dot-com-bust (also happened to me) the mid-level manager could find himself out of work without a great skillset.

I wouldn't manage unless I were running the show- great skills = pretty good job security. Now on to the math:

Here's a little math that went into a stored procedure I wrote a month ago:

, thisDistance = CASE WHEN (SIN(@Lat1Rads) * SIN((Latitude/@RadConverter))) + (COS(@Lat1Rads) * COS(Latitude/@RadConverter) * COS(@Long1Rads - (Longitude/@RadConverter))) > 1 THEN @DistanceFactor * ACOS(1) ELSE @DistanceFactor * ACOS((SIN(@Lat1Rads) * SIN((Latitude/@RadConverter))) + (COS(@Lat1Rads) * COS((Latitude/@RadConverter)) * COS(@Long1Rads - (Longitude/@RadConverter)))) END

It doesn't happen every day, but it does come up.

Ever wonder where these guys get their 'info'

[cavalierlwt]

It seems like the writers just run with whatever the industry gossip tells them. It's not like they do an in depth study, interview a thousand different people and such. It's always just today's buzz with these articles. A few years ago it was 'Engineers starving to death' and now it's 'Engineers getting $150K to work at home'. Every Engineer job has been outsourced. We're critically short of Engineers. Different story every day.

Abstract symbol manipulation

[KenSeymour]

My degree is in Physics. In the process of getting my degree, I used
tons and tons of algebra. Maybe other programmers think differently, but
I find programming very mathmatical.

1) Factoring lines of code out of loops or into methods
2) Looking for invariants
3) Commutation (can you switch the order of operations and get the same result)
4) Being carefull about details
5) Finding the mistakes (where did I pick up that incorrect factor of 2?)

It is true that you might not use specific things you had in school (like F = mA).
But I think doing a lot of math exercises the same parts of the brain as a lot of
programming.

As far as using libraries for sorting or collections, it is helpful to know how a linked list or a hash table is in order to choose the right collection.
Or for that matter, knowing something about the performance of sorting algorithms in ordere to choose the right one.

Hopefully, you found some of the topics covered in your degree as fun so it will not have been a complete waste if you don't ever use them at work.
Imagine if you knew you would never do anything you didn't learn in school.

Re:Abstract symbol manipulation

[siwelwerd]

4) Being carefull about details

I think this is the most important reason. As a math major (and former CS major), I find that my coding has gotten a lot better with the more proof-based math I do in large part due to the attention to detail. Higher maths require you to pay attention to details, which in turn teaches you to pay attention to details in code. Little of the actual math I know can be used (unless you're working for Wolfram or something), but some of the mental tools apply to both fields.

What about us Computer Scientists?

[ShyGuy91284]

I see we are nowhere on the top 50, but listed in the listing of 166 other jobs (Good pay, but not a high enough outlook). It seems sad that a major that many CS people drop down to due to CS's difficulty at my university (IT) has a higher ranking (I'm not trolling. At my university, CS has a lot of required science and mathematics courses most computer scientists will never use in their career that the IT majors are not required to take. So technically the major itself isn't really more difficult unless you get into the theoretical and discrete computational things like cryptography and CS Theory). In the end, i think most CS people drift into IT/SE jobs, since the actual market and people's ability for computer algorithm research wouldn't seem that big. I'm most concerned if I drift into an SE-like position, which is likely, I may be doomed to be a lower-level code-monkey my whole life since SE people are taught to have a bigger picture of operations as a whole. This is all speculation though, since I've just started looking for a job.

Re:What about us Computer Scientists?

[aevans]

college professor was number two. It would have been #1 because it pays more, you work less, and the benefits are fantastic, with no fear of layoff, months a year off, paid, and occasionally a year or more off, paid, except you have to swallow the politics.

They should hire one.

[JavaLord]

They should hire a software engineer to figure out how not to use a shitty popup interface for stories on their website. It would be nice to have one long, regular article...so you can do something nice....like print it.

Its called hiding from Marketing...

[gravyface]

Telecommuting just raises another possible barrier and could compound dynamics and differences among team members. Yeah, it's called hiding from Marketing so you can finish the last changes she requested before being asked to do something else. Telecommuting, on an adhoc basis (once or twice a week) so you can get some uninterrupted development work done is perfectly acceptable, especially if you don't have your own office and work in a fabulous "open concept" office or cube farm.

Comp Sci. vs. Soft. Eng.

[Tominva1045]

I understand what you are saying and think there are different perceptions about the terms. I too majored in CS but consider myself a software engineer. We started with 300, only 26 graduated (1990); 26 hours of math required.

Perceptions (right or wrong):

Software Engineer: plans, manages, and develops full end-to-end software work products. They work in industry where the phrase return-on-investment (ROI) is used daily, their organizations often answer to stock holders, and their reputation hinges on each successful effort.

Computer Scientist: conducts research, often in government / educational / research facilities where the terms Grant and Research Funding are more often used and they can often obtain tenure (a secure position).

Re:Comp Sci. vs. Soft. Eng.

[ShyGuy91284]

I see. We have 24 hours math required (although if you consider CS Theory as Discrete Mathematics III, which I do, it's 28), and 28 science courses, so not too far off. You really went from 300 to 26 in your class? Thats an insane drop assuming you mean just graduated, not graduated on time. We have lost a lot of people, but We still have plenty of people to fill most CS classes offered every quarter.

Re:Comp Sci. vs. Soft. Eng.

[Tominva1045]

Yes 300 down to 26. There were two courses that triggered this:

1. Calculus II (integration) - people didn't know their algebra and it is a required course. This caused a lot fo them to shift from Computer Science to Information Systems (less math requried).

2. Assembly language - people didn't want to learn how to go from assembly code to object code and compute hexidecimal loop offset addresses. Note: never had to do that in the real world.

We did have a cool course in logic - Discrete Mathematics for Computer Science - proof by induction, etc. Again, never used in real life. Guess it is one of those rights-of-passage things.

Where's the documentation?

[grudgelord]

Anything that comes from CNN is immediately suspect as far as I'm concerned. I've seen bs report after bs report regarding the best jobs, the best salaries, best places to work, best hookers for the up-and-coming coke snorting MBA. They are all fabricated pablum excrementum.

Upon a cursory examination I couldn't find any reference to the criteria for their "research". Who did they poll, individuals or corporations? Which individuals or corporations? Is there any science in this article or did they just scribble a couple-of-hundred occupations on slips of paper and then pull from a hat? Where are statistics? Did I just overlook them?

This article is nothing more than spin, considering neither CNN nor most employers know a software engineer from a proctologist, though both wade through the same type of bio-matter.

software engineer vs. college professor

[xPsi]

Obviously this isn't exactly a scientific ranking and is somewhat arbitrary. Nevertheless, it probably has some qualitative merit.

But it seems odd: If you compare software engineer to college professor, it is clear, based on their data, that the 10-year growth parameter is fairly heavily weighted in their ranking since professor is equal or higher in all other areas.

Software Engineer:
average salary: $80.5k
10-year growth: 46%
Average annual job openings: 44.8k
Stress: B
Flexibility: B
Creativity: A
Ease of Entry: C

College Professor:
average salary: $81.5k
10-year growth: 31%
Average annual job openings: 95.3k
Stress: B
Flexibility: A
Creativity: A
Ease of Entry: C

It seems like *if you had the job*, the quality of that job *right now* would be somewhat independent of the 10-year growth parameter. In that same spirit, if they folded in some "job security" parameter, it seems the tenture (or tenture-track) options of a professor would trump all others.

Re:software engineer vs. college professor

[Gramie2]

It strikes me as rather odd that the software engineer's "Ease of Entry" (open to everyone from high school drop-outs and up) is rated the same as a professor (minimum PhD for university, usually Master's for community college).

Re:software engineer vs. college professor

[k2enemy]

to give a little empirical support to your argument, two years ago I left my position as a software engineer to pursue my ph.d. in economics and become a professor at a research university.

Re:software engineer vs. college professor

[ucblockhead]

Higher job growth is a way of saying "more demand", which for people with the jobs (the "supply") means lower unemployment and higher salaries.

One problem with tenure is that it is a trap in that you lose it if you switch jobs.

Re:software engineer vs. college professor

[vacorama]

yeah but school isn't everything.. i think most self taught software engineers would agree it wasn't a quick and easy process to learn everything it takes to be a hireable and productive person. And although a 4 CS degree is a great start, it's still only a start, learning the ins and outs of all the popular stuff can take quite some time.

Re:software engineer vs. college professor

[SloppyElvis]

Not to mention the availability of suitable mates a college prof enjoys over a software engr. And in that same spirit, how come "Rock Star", "Fashion Model", or "Professional Athlete" didn't make the list? Seems to me those would be much better careers than what I'm doing right now, typing nonsense into Slashdot.

"Oil Tycoon" and "Real Estate Baron" seem like pretty good jobs too. Sheesh.

Re:software engineer vs. college professor

[mshurpik]

> Obviously this isn't exactly a scientific ranking and is somewhat arbitrary.

It also doesn't take into consideration self-starting and ownership careers like landlord, contractor, salesman. Take a tour around the suburbs and see how your rich neighbors are making money. They own businesses. Putting Software Development at #1 with a picture of a fat kid with a game controller (the next article down) suggests to me that they are targeting a certain audience.

Re:software engineer vs. college professor

[A10n]

"It strikes me as rather odd that the software engineer's "Ease of Entry" (open to everyone from high school drop-outs and up) is rated the same as a professor (minimum PhD for university, usually Master's for community college). "

You are not thinking of the correct type of software engineer. "Open to everyone from high school drop-outs"... Um those are script kiddies, website designers, and PHP/PERL web portal developers.

I had to work my butt off to get my current job offer. I have been interviewing since December with dozens of companies, most of them small mom and pop shops, to the juggernauts. Of course getting into a Juggernaut like IBM, MS, Google is a very hard barrier to entry. I would actually give Ease of entry to Software Engineers a C+ or B- as I had to interview for 3 months with a certain company to get to the point I am at now.

Ooooo, flashback!

[schiefaw]

Did anyone else read this and think they were having a flashback to the '90s? Also, I have to side with the "don't use math much" lobby. Although, if you generalize enough, problem solving all becomes Algebra.

undergrad and software engineering

[agentskip007]

It think it is great news that software engineering is the best job in the USA. But the trouble is undergrad college education does not teach you how to be a software engineer CS was my primary major in college. The only reason why I got my job right out of school is that I happen to interview with the same company as a sophomore and I found out what a lot of the industry is looking for. None of which I learned directly in CS, but I had to learn on my own. In my interviews and my job searches, the following skills are what the industry seems to want out of software engineers:
                * business/soft skills
                * software architecture
                * software requirements analysis and documentation
                * Object oriented analysis and design and UML
                * software process/process improvement (CMM)
                * n-tier systems design, development, testing - J2EE/.NET are dominant, but the LAMP stack is also used
                * software project management/project management in general
                * computer/internet/information security
                * data mining/data warehousing/business intelligence

Currently, there is no undergrad program that I have seen that teaches the skills I mentioned. My CS program has one software engineering class and one web programming class, both of which were too crammed with too much stuff to really be useful. I remember that we had 1 week one each phase of the lifecycle for the SE course, and they tried to teach 10 different web languages in a single semester.

As a remedy to the situation, I delayed my graduation an extra semester to get a business undergrad in finance. I must say that it has helped on the job a lot and I recommend a business dual/double degree to any students still in college. I found that it was a good way to eat up my elective credits with something productive. I also must have spent $5000 on books and online classes. I think I own half of the books in the object technology, agile development, and SEI series from AW Professional. I also recently discovered the Safari bookshelf and recommend that to any IT person as well.

CS degree holders are thought to have problems getting jobs at non-IT companies (my company included) because we dont seem to get many skills that people need right out of the box. However, IT undergrad degree programs are also sometimes considered to be weak on the technical background. To quote my manager: "what I need from the undergraduate college system is a IT\CS\Business hybrid degree program."

As a result, I feel like the undergrad system is failing students. What do others think? Maybe to be a software engineer, one should just go on to a masters degree program in software engieering right after a CS or IT undergrad.

Re:undergrad and software engineering

[Anonymous Coward]

Don't go to a CS program. Go to one of the few Software Engineering undergrad programs. They're out there. Carnegie Mellon, Milwaukee School of Engineering, Worchester Polytechnic, and others started them around 2000, with the first grads hitting in 2002-2003.

Re:undergrad and software engineering

[Anonymous Coward]

You could at least mention that your current post was already made in another thread.

Re:undergrad and software engineering

[SSCGWLB]

I think the problem was the school you attended. I also got a BS in CS (2002). My experience was very different to say the least. The CS degree program at my school New Mexico Tech wasn't perfect but it sure prepared me better then that. I was required to take several general programming classes and many more specialized classes (data structures, software design, computer architecture, compiler writing, networking/security, databases, etc). All of which required significant to insane amounts of programming/design. My largest CS class was 45 people, my smallest was 7. Just doing the class work produced a software engineer of decent caliber, a extra work on your part would make a excellent one. I never worried about business or management skills, I wanted to be a software engineer.

I guess the purpose of the rambling post is to point out that experiences vary and you only get out what you put into it. If you really work at it you will excel, as apposed to doing the minimum to graduate with a C+ GPA.

On a side note, what managers want and what they can get are usually two different things. Managers would love to hire software engineers that are C/C++/C#/Java/.Net/CORBA/... experts, used to programming under ISO and CMMI level 5, invented the TCP/IP stack, and also independently wealthy and willing to work for Dr. Pepper. These kind of people are hard to find, they will have to stick with us entry level types who are will to learn.

~nate

Re:undergrad and software engineering

[agentskip007]

Hey Nate,

Good thoughts and it does depend on the school you go to. My program was very tilted twards operating systems, compilers, and hardware architecture (Univ of Pittsburgh). I got all the general classes you did and I did well in the program (3.7 overall, 3.5 CS).

The skills mentioned are typically achieved at the graduate level from most of the different IT and CS programs I have seen. So I do agree with you that perhpas managemet expects too much from an undergrad.

I still think, as someone else pointed out that schools like CMU have, that an undergrad software engineering major is needed. A SE program, as I envison it, would be a CS/IT/Business hybrid that give students the technical, analysis, and soft skills they need to be a good software engineer.

Overall, I think software engineering, like the other types of engineering, is about the application of known scientific principles to solve problems. This is somewhat different that what CS really is: a science that developed the theories that allow software engineers to solve problems.

Advanced math skills?

[slagell]

I don't know about the comment that software engineers use some pretty advanced math skills. I would say that is the minority, and the advanced mathematics is done by mathematicians who have learned to program. It is hard to become an applied mathematician of any regard without some serious programmning experience.

I would bet money that the most software engineers never use anything beyond simple calculus that many learn in high school. Crypto requires some more complex mathematics, but the software engineers that implement crypto often don't understand the theoretical underpinnings of the crypto and are just implementing algorithms described by pseudo-code in crypto books. Even in computer graphics programming, which is fairly mathematical, the mathematics isn't very complex, and itis abstracted away from the applications programmer who is using some library.

No, the physicists and the mathematicians tend to do most of the advanced mathematics in programming.

Always working away from the office, boredom?!

[baker_tony]

I'm a programmer and currently thinking about going back home to New Zealand from the UK and working for my company back there on my own (via the wonders of the Internet).
I know this sounds like a pretty sweet deal on the face of it, but I'm wondering if I'll get bored without the day to day office interaction with people!
Do you work every day at home? How do you cope?

Re:Always working away from the office, boredom?!

[deque_alpha]

Because of my very diverse responsibilities, I do about 80% in office and 20% work at home / telecommute. This seems to provide a good balance of "social" and "go to work in my jammies". However, these past few weeks have been more like 80% telecommute, and I have _really_ enjoyed it, but I think long-term I would get stir-crazy staying at home all the time. I think that big-picture, close to 50/50 would be about ideal.

Better Headline:

[twifosp]

Software Engineers Ranked Best Job in America to Send to India

World's Worst Job?

[FloridaGamer]

..and the world's Worst Job, for the second year in a row, "Assistant Crack Whore".

[/Norm MacDonald]

I'm with you!

[Perl-Pusher]

I love the fact I can get away from behind my desk! I write software, everything from not so simple perl scripts, ajax web apps using php & javascript to a couple of cross platform multi-media apps written in java. I also design & build linux clusters for satellite data systems for nasa. And I am the main systems admin for our small company of 25 employees, consisting of mostly physicists who program in IDL & Fortran. It's a great job, definately not boring!

Fastest Promo I Ever Got!

[rhu]

So I marched right in and asked the boss if I could be a software engineer. He said "What do thy do?" and I said "Same stuff I do", and he said "Sure!" so now I'm one of the few, the happy few! And to think, this morning I was just "the computer guy".

We Still Aren't Trusted to Collaborate.

[Anonymous Coward]

"I think it depends. When I worked for a major financial firm as an offshore employee (which was pretty funny since I was definitely on shore), they had me working from home 5 days a week to free up cubicle space. Mind you, I worked pretty much on my own, but with the panopoly of telecommuting tools available, it was easy to hold meetings and generally be involved. The downside is the lack of face time -- people tend to forget you exist if they don't see you, and while that's great if you're a programmer and want to get things done, it's lousy from a standpoint of keeping yoru job or moving up, as I found out when they ended my contract rather abruptly."

So how do you think croquet or game engines in a collaborative role will affect future telecommuters?

Heh.

[Ivan Matveitch]

That's cool, good for you.

funny that s/w engrs are nowadays outsourced

[recharged95]

It's ironic they assign the #1 job to one that is heavily outsourced. I guess since it's such a great job, Americans don't deserve to work in these positions--better set sent to other countries. Is this saying basically the best job any company can offer (s/w engineering) should be outsourced? (or is it a conclusion that 'best jobs' cost companies too much?)

Really, this looks like a marketing ploy to get [young] people interested again in technology, specifically software, considering college interest has dropped considerably.

As for reality from TFA:

• growth -- what growth? I haven't been promoted in the last 3 years aside from job changes. Also I've been working on the same tech for the last 2+ years. No tech revolution since 1999, really folks, think about it.
• pay -- that's a good one, yeah right.
• stress-levels -- Huh? can I say high stress from deadlines? Maybe low stress cause most s/w engineers train hard and experience matters, but it's not low stress at all.
• other factors -- just read slashdot, lots of other factors.

Re:funny that s/w engrs are nowadays outsourced

[Anonymous Coward]

Outsourcing is overhyped on /. for no good reason. Companies that want quality software will hire Americans to do their code. I just landed a very nice and well paying job out of college and all my friends are getting great offers as well. Maybe the people who keep complaining about outsourcing are the ones with poor skillsets, poor working habits, poor social habits, and bad attitudes.

Journalism is dead

[Anonymous Coward]

Journalists do not require any real skill to get/keep their job. They obviously require connections and a LOT of sucking up.

Journalism is a sick joke. This proves it. How much more obvious could they make it that "journalists" are nothing more than the mouth-pieces of their rich, tyrannical overlords?

Do they have to start saying "Black Proved To Be White" or "Day Is Night" for you people to get it already?

JOURNALISM IS DEAD. THE MEDIA IS A LYING MACHINE.

That would be great.

[Ivan Matveitch]

Who wants to live in America?

Becoming a professor is HARD

[Kupek]

But they have it ranked as C, which I assume is average entry difficulty. According to their numbers, there are about 95,000 professor positions open every year. But that's not the whole picture: only a small fraction of that 95,000 are positions open to a particular person. In order to be a professor, you need to have a relatively narrow expertise. There will be few professor positions open in the country that want your particular expertise.

I also think they underestimate the stress level of getting tenure. Getting tenure is a cutthroat process.

For the record, I am a Computer Science graduate student.

Maybe....

[Jerf]

Maybe you're doing something where there's no math required.

Or maybe you're not applying math where it should be applied. Or possibly, you've got a bad definition of math.

While I certainly don't do math everyday, even by a more proper definition of math that includes "graph theory" and "algorithms", I have done the following over the course of the past three years:

• Utilized graph theory multiple times; not necessarily the really advanced stuff, but I have had to work out how to deal with real graphs in real systems without ye olde infinite loops. I did once have to work out a cute and possibly novel (albeit useless outside of this exact problem) algorithm for displaying certain complicated graphs in a way that made sense to the user while minimizing the number of "branches" that appeared on the screen.
• Done some pretty fancy date math, which is sort of math in the traditional "numbers" sense. What makes this hard is that it's not like you're doing the math for one particular computation; that's easy. You're doing it for all possible inputs, and dates are tricky things. It's best to have a full arsenal of mathematical knowledge when dealing with them.
• I haven't done it quite yet, but I'm going to use a bona-fide Neural Network here in the next couple of weeks, for combining multiple fuzzy inputs and producing an output in the range [OK, Bad, Human Must Check Manually]. It's a tough problem that several other developers have jousted with using only "programming without math" tools, but I think this definitely calls for a neural net. I can't be much more specific, though, due to an NDA. (Note I'm not really using it as "AI" either; I can't guarantee the marketting department will see it that way but I just see it as a way to off-load a tricky bit of weight setting onto an algorithm that I can tweak and re-train with less effort and higher accuracy than I can get manually.)
• I've implemented a couple of my own Finite State Automaton variations and proved (empirically, i.e., through exhausitive testing of the state space; fortunately it's small enough I can do that) that certain properties of concern to the user hold in my modified model. This isn't Arithmetic, this is math.

And in all of this, I've had bog-standard jobs, mostly web development, not physics simulations or market predictions or anything like that. The graph-theory came in with a web-based learning system. The FSA work was on a factory modeling and tracking system. I can't tell you what I'm going to use the neural nets for, but most of you would consider it "just a programming" job.

If you go into something thinking math is useless, by golly, you'll be proven correct. But as I like to say, the code of such a person tends to show up their lack of math skills. Most likely, if you knew the math and actually considered using it, you'd find places where a careful application can turn a jungle of code into something much simpler and more correct, or do something you didn't even think was possible.

Every time I hear somebody whine about how useless math is, I think "there's another wasted developer".

Re:Maybe....

[broohaha]

I haven't done it quite yet, but I'm going to use a bona-fide Neural Network here in the next couple of weeks, for combining multiple fuzzy inputs and producing an output in the range [OK, Bad, Human Must Check Manually].

They're sometimes lumped in together with discussions on Neural Networks, and maybe you meant to refer to them, as well, but just in case you didn't, you might want to read up on Fuzzy Logic (lots of good links there).

Go figure...

[stacybro]

You all remember when Clinton was spending so much effort trying to get kids to go into computer programming. (lol...) I seem to remember a lot of these types of articles around then too. I wonder what it is about our industry (the programming industry), when it start to get a little difficult finding programmers to hire every one starts to panic. You see a lot of these types of articles and the "best future career" articles. I wonder how much of these articles are driven by big corps and govt demand for these types of articles. Kinda makes me feel used...

Software engineer vs. Architect.

[Anonymous Coward]

"Software engineering I think gives you more of a sense that you're working on something really big, and there's obviously a huge sense of accomplishment when something you spent a year writing is used by thousands of people. On the flip side, though, you have to work for a year or more pounding away at code, with no real sense of accomplishment other than passing milestones. Often times, even that gives you no real sense of a job well done, since time frames for milestones are often set unrealistically, so you end up feeling lousy about missing a milestone instead of good for hitting one."

Become the guy who designed the Sistine Chapel. People are still talking about that years later.

Being flexible

[trajano]

I think moving people to work-from-home or just stay at the office are just too extreme. I think its better for the office to provide "mobility centers" where people who prefer to work at the office have a desk they can get and a locker/file cabinet to call their own. It allows for people to decide we need to have face to face interaction anytime that they want. I usually find it useful to do that in the beginning of a project to get to know who you are working with and develop logistics unique to the team.

fsckup

[arakis]

Wow. Reading this really is depressing when you are a fuckup making a solid third less than 75% of the people in your field. I am not completely retarded and do realize that it is all my fault, but still. Just throwing it out there for a little empathy to any other fuckups who may check out these comments.

I know I love it

[bberens]

Many posters are joking about India but I don't see them as a threat. Maybe it's just in my area but almost every business I have contacts with has an open development position. The only exceptions are the businesses going through rough times in general and are on hiring freezes throughout the entire company.

Good, now get back to work!

[Anonymous Coward]

Signed,
Your Project Manager
(Ranked #27,999th among the 28,000 best jobs, just ahead of Baghad Tour Guide)

I love hardware engineering, but...

[Quiet_Desperation]

... the need to get "hands on" at certain phases of a project does limit me geographically. I can telecommute, but only in the design stage. That's the one of two downsides to HE. The other is that "debugging" usually involves a soldering iron. :-\

Re:I love hardware engineering, but...

[aquatone282]

[Hardware engineering]. . ."debugging" usually involves a soldering iron.

And smoke. Don't forget the smoke.

Sometimes fire too.

Re:I love hardware engineering, but...

[Quiet_Desperation]

And smoke. Don't forget the smoke.

Unless there's a VP at the demo, then it's, "No, no, it's *supposed* to do that." :)

What sucks is...

[Drinkgreen]

As an experienced Software Programmer (Engineer) I have noticed this small problem though. My employers seem to consider a straight out of college kid with a CS degree to be a risk, because college doesn't teach you how to program. All my employers even said that a degree doesn't mean anything.

But it does mean something. I do not have a degree. I only have what I taught myself. But since I don't have a degree, I make 10k-20k less than others. SO, employers don't think a degree means anything, but they'll pay you more if you have one.

Lack of personal interaction is a problem

[retendo]

and one I have not yet solved. For a while I had an office with others and that was good, but I found myself working from home a lot of the time. Now that I'm using the flexibility to my advantage and am moving around the country a bit in order to make my recreation time easier I still find that I miss the personal interaction. My advice to others in similar situations or to people thinking of telecommuting is to make sure that you at least have someone else to work with online.

Going to a coffee shop is nice but what I often find that I need is someone who will understand what I'm talking about, even if they aren't right there.

"I've just finished my light weight persistence framework for my first SWT app and I'm really happy that I found a good balance between a pure OO approach and using the Composite pattern to allow for a smart cache....blah blah blah blah"

The cute girl at the coffee shop just nods and says, "Would you like whipped cream on your mocha?"

I'm one of the lucky ones

[Anonymous Coward]

I make nearly 3 times the average wage in my town (which I like, and and my wife will not live in CA or NY anyway.) I get to work on several different commercial desktop applications, and own one. I have no chance whatever of getting promoted into any sort of management (which is fine, considering that I'd rather die.) No job security to speak of, but I've been here nearly 5 years through a bunch of layoffs.

I'd say that I'm just about the luckiest software guy I know, overall, and you know what? Software engineering as a career wasn't even close to my pick of the top ten. If I could do anything that made a decent living and let me write programs on the side (I can't manage that now), I'd change fields in a heartbeat. I wish we could live on night shift hotel clerk pay; I've wondered how much free time freight train conductors have on the job (if they can avoid being promoted to Engineer.)

PURE PROPOGANDA

[Anonymous Coward]

Come on folks,

Can you not see this is pure propoganda???? Best job in America? Software Engineer? LOL!!!!! Maybe in 1986, but not 2006.

Let's get students studying CS again by proclaiming the *BEST JOB IN AMERICA* award goes to.....drum roll please.......Software Engineers. LOL!!!!

These jokers that wrote this puff piece should be sent to India, not America. Let me repeat, once again, the BEST JOB IN AMERICA will not now, nor ever be "Software Engineer" until the conditions for getting/keeping the job in AMERICA improves. Which will never happen.

Luckily, I think most students are smart enough to smell the con-game that this piece portrays.

Comment removed

[account_deleted]

Comment removed based on user account deletion

Re:Wow, salary

[Drinkgreen]

They probably average the major companies (in large cities with high cost of living) and only those with BS or MS degrees

Re:language skills

[woodsrunner]

Both math and language skills are important. I was going to add this to my post, but decided to stay on topic. Also, I am glad I didn't since I accidentally used a double negative due to bad editing and would have looked dumber.

I studied a lot of poetry in University and I feel this helps my coding considerably. Poetry literally means work and the sort of work skills necessary to write concise verse is very similar to the work necessary to write good code.

Learning to think and write in other languages is helpful too, since it teaches you to analyze the whole processes of language.

To me codeing is mathematical poetry.

Yeah, but your kids will grow up, unlike users

[wsanders]

Your kids will eventually stop throwing tantrums and will move out. Your co-workers will not.

I agree though, telecommuting is not a way to save on day care.

I'm an SRE (Release Engineer)

[CockMonster]

And there's no way I earn 6 figures, but then I do earn UK pounds, which unlike the dollar, are actually worth something.

Wrong! Being president is best

[mjc_w]

You can lie, damage the country, spy on citizens, spend billions needlessly, and kill or maim thousands and it's not your fault!

Re:Wrong! Being president is best

[Drinkgreen]

Eh... don't think so. According the to polls, 69% of the country think its Bush's fault. I'd rather mess up and only have a couple people mad at me at the most, than have billions of people.

Re:Wrong! Being president is best

[mjc_w]

Yeah, but HE doesn't think it's his fault.

(Why, because Cheney told him!)

Software Engineering and Programing

[budcub]

I had a co-worker back in 1990 who's goal was to be a Software Engineer someday, but he adamantly refused to take any computer programming classes. His opinion was that "programmers where no different than typists", and he didn't want to be a typist. When a programmer was writing code, he was doing it through a keyboard and he figured typing was for secretaries and beneath him. He believed that it was Software Engineers who sat back and told programmers what to type ("code" in other words) and the programmers did all the dirty work, while he would get all the money. Don't know whatever happened to him, but I seriously doubt he got far with that attitude.

Now, I do remember reading an interview with a video games programmer from the golden age of arcade games (late 1970's early 1980's) and he said he would write out his code on legal pads, and then hand it off to the typing pool who'd input the code into their system for testing and eval, etc but that was back when the IBM PC was just on the horizon. Times had changed by the time 1990 had rolled around.

Ok...

[Estanislao Mart�nez]

How's your knowledge of mathematical logic? Graph theory? Abstract algebra? Linear algebra? Have you had much practice writing mathematical proofs?

I doubt you have taken much (if any) real, higher mathematics. You know, the kind where they don't give you problems where you're supposed to come up with a set of numbers for an answer, but rather, the kind where what you're expected to do is prove theorems about some kind of mathematical structure, which most likely doesn't even involve numbers.

Re:University Professor?

[Procrastin8er]

Then again, you have to deal with rapists
You may want to hold off on your rapist comment until more evidence is disclosed.

Just Wait Until High-Definition Porn

[Cranky Weasel]

I don't see Male Porn Star anywhere on the list...

Oh sure, it looks glamorous when everything is slightly blurry. Wait until the first high definition porn titles become available and you can see all of the pimply, warty details. Suddenly being a "sanitation worker" isn't so bad.

100% telecommute - but not an employee

[NotQuiteReal]

I am an independent contractor - maybe that doesn't count.

Engineer != Engineering Degree

[jsrjsr]

I work for a Fortune 500 company. I have no engineering degree. In fact, I have no bachelors degree at all. I do the same work as my co-workers who do have engineering degrees. I design various portions of new products (software and firmware mostly).

If I am not a engineer of some sort, what title best describes my occupation?

(My employer calls me a Senior Software Engineer.)

Re:Engineer != Engineering Degree

[Stud1y]

I am in the same boat.

i have no degree.

my title is senior software engineer.

Whats the problem? oh. i remember, people who went to college think they're smarter, and are jealous i didn't waste 50k to learn how to write software and think.

Sorry but being an engineer isn't about a piece of paper, anyone who thinks that... isn't an engineer.

Re:Engineer != Engineering Degree

[Bill Dog]

Honestly, all you Slashdotters that are sans degree need to get over the DE (degree envy) and either go for one yourself or just accept that you don't have one (and don't need one) and be okay with that. But stop the whining about people who have them.

Instant Gratification, anyone?

[dobriak]

That is my sole reason for choosing Software Engineering as a career path. Plus, my attention span is exactly 20 seconds, enough to issue the make command.

Hmmm

[danwesnor]

Surprisingly, "Crack Whore" has failed to break into the top 50 jobs this year, although it did manage to edge out "Civil Servant".

Two different kinds of "working together"

[try_anything]

The most valuable people to me aren't the other guys on my team; they're the guys on other teams with whom I get together and discuss hard problems and hard decisions. If you're just answering emails, checking in code, and closing out bugs, as another poster put it, you can do that just fine remotely. Sharing knowledge and brainwaves to help each other solve hard problems is an entirely different animal that doesn't work well remotely.

In a face-to-face environment, you can peel off and have a twenty minute chat with your coworker about what you're each doing. Sometimes you can solve each other's problems, or help them solve them by asking questions. A twenty minute face-to-face chat can communicate a huge amount of information, especially when everyone has a whiteboard. Email can't accomplish that. The art of being as expressive in pure text as one is when speaking is very, very rare, and doing it at the same speed is pretty freaky. Doing it at the same speed with no access to the audience's feedback simply can't be done.

Suppose you each spend your twenty minutes on email instead: ten minutes of that time writing an email, five minutes reading the other guy's email, and five minutes writing a response. First, a ten-minute email is going to be very short or very poorly written. (We get much more information from poorly composed speech than from poorly composed prose.) It will convey very little of what you're working on. Second, without cues from the other person, you don't know how to skip past the parts he knows about and add more detail when he doesn't understand. Third, if your buddy senses that you're glossing over something (that you may or may not be aware of), you won't know until the end of the twenty minutes. Finally, there isn't time for multiple back-and-forths. In conversation, it's routine to go deep into exchanges of I say "X," you say "but Y," I say "Y'", you say "No, Y~, in fact, Y~3*!", I say, "Oh, yeah, we're probably doing that wrong," then I pop back up to the top level and continue talking about X. That back and forth probably wouldn't happen if we were communicating via email, and if it did, it would take hours instead of minutes.

Email example: "My gut instinct tells me you hookie-dookie won't scale. The flooge calculation will tell you whether it will or not. I don't know if you're familiar with it, but you can find it in 'Algorithms, Orangutans, and Phlogiston,' by Rivest and a few other guys. The way it applies to your hookie-dookie is ...." After five minutes of typing, you send the email.

Face-to-face example: "Did you do the flooge calculation?" "Yes, of course." "Did you get something on the same order of magnitude as 1,000?" "No, more like tens of millions." "That smells fishy to me. Let's run through it together." "Wait, I'll go get Serge. He's the guy who did our calculation, and he understands the math better than me." That takes less than a minute, and already you're well on your way to solving the problem. Face-to-face saves even more time if flooge isn't the problem: twenty seconds worth of chatting vs. five minutes of email.

Re:Two different kinds of "working together"

[aminorex]

What, you never heard of the telephone? Yes, Email is not a good vehicle for most working communication. But that's a very weak basis for an argument against a proven working organization. Actually, most of my communication is IRC or Skype, but I get or make at least
a couple of concalls in a typical day.

Re:Two different kinds of "working together"

[try_anything]

The telephone is much better than email, but you have no hand gestures and no whiteboard, and when the other guy isn't talking, you have zero feedback. Is he impatient? Shifting his weight? Looking confused? The more you replicate the face-to-face experience, the better it gets: videophones, virtual whiteboards, etc. There's a long way to go before it gets as good as face-to-face. And you can't borrow or lend a book through virtual reality unless it's an e-book (barf!)

Re:Two different kinds of "working together"

[aminorex]

You do have a whiteboard. And the remaining diminishing returns aren't worth an order-of-magnitude loss of productivity.

Re:Two different kinds of "working together"

[try_anything]

You do have a whiteboard.

I'm guessing this is something that displays on my computer monitor? Thanks but no thanks. I'm waiting for the wall-sized ones.

And the remaining diminishing returns aren't worth an order-of-magnitude loss of productivity.

If you're an order of magnitude less productive in an office than at home, that's a perfectly acceptable reason to telecommute. Why in the world would that be, though? I telecommute now (forcibly, since my coworkers are out of town), and the isolation really sucks. It's more awkward to ask for help, so people only do it formally for big problems, never informally for small problems. We've essentially neutered ourselves into only providing value on projects we're officially assigned to. Mostly we limit ourselves to what we can accomplish by ourselves, which makes us less ambitious than we should be.

One of the charms of my old job was that people regularly came to me with hard problems, small or large, and in return I could go pick their brains when I needed to. This resulted in everyone having at least a basic grasp of everyone else's work, not to mention the small efficiencies that come from everyone doing what they're good at.

Now I do that more with the guys I drink beer with than with my coworkers. It's boring and frustrating.

Re:Two different kinds of "working together"

[aminorex]

The problem isn't that you're telecommuting. It's that you're NOT telecommuting. You're just working at home. Telecommuting is all about engaging with your co-workers. I've spent weeks in offices trying to accomplish something, only to be completely destroyed by constant interruptions. That doesn't happen working at home. I've spent hours in conversations only to find that the whole thing was forgotten, or worse, completely misinterpreted. That doesn't happen when there's a record of the interaction. I've spent hours each day commuting to a downtown office, and frankly it's not worth it. I could be productive instead. I could be communicating with my coworkers in a conscious and intentional manner, rather than losing an hour of work because two people walked by chattering about some stupid thing that ate my brain.

Life is too short. Don't be a sariman.

Don't be naive.

[Anonymous Coward]

It might not suprise you to find out that I've got intelligent, well-educated, think-outside-the-box type kids. In fact I suspect that most high-tech workers have intelligent, well-educated kids.

So, again unsuprisingly, my 9-year-old will find a way to get into the home office, even if it involves daredevil acrobatics or lock-picking. My 6-year-old will find a way to get my attention, even if it involves homemade explosives or animal sacrifice.

Until they are mature enough to reliably anticipate the consequences of these actions (hopefully by age 10 or so, this stuff is getting old) I have to be able to juggle work and kids simultaneously when I'm working from home.

Despite all this, my kids are smarter and more emotionally mature than several of the people I have to deal with at work, so it's not as big a deal as you might think.

Re:Don't be naive.

[hal2814]

"It might not suprise you to find out that I've got intelligent, well-educated, think-outside-the-box type kids."

And you're calling me naive? Of course you think you're kids are smarter than most. Nobody thinks their kids a stupid. My kids could probably figure out a way into my office too but they respect and fear their father. I also have full support from my spouse. They know that when I'm working, an interruption of that work is not tolerated unless there is a real emergency. And for what it's worth, I don't lock my door. I don't need to. I do make sure to give them ample attention during lunch and breaks though.

Re:Don't be naive.

[Anonymous Coward]

From reading your comment it strikes me that your children are not well disiplined if they would consider doing those things regardless of whether they are capable or not.

You need to set boundaries, a clear set of rules of things they can and can't do. They need to be punished for breaking the rules every time they break them and don't forget to reward them for good behaviour.

Don't take my advice on this (not that you are likely to anyway since I'm an AC), read the parenting advice written by childcare experts.

Humor: My Take

[vinn]

I thought their choices were pretty good, but they completely screwed up with the reasoning behind the selections. Here's my take on it:

1. Software engineer
Congratulations, no one really knows what you do. As a software engineer you have carte blanche to fuck off. Don't like what you're working on? Tell your employer it'll take two years and 10 people to accomplish. No one will know the difference. Just remember, 10 minutes of inspiration gets more accomplished than a strong work ethic.

2. College professor
Congratulations, you figured out how to never leave college. Rather than figuring out how the real world operates you get to tell future generations how you wished it worked. It's the only job in the world where you can bang 18 year-olds for the rest of your life and simply be called 'eccentric'.

3. Financial advisor
Congratulations, you figured out how to be a criminal that gets a salary. Because, hey, no one really goes to jail for white collar crimes. Scraping a few pennies worth of commission from every trade is not only legal, it's expected. The best part: the only qualifications are you need is the ability to use Excel and wear a shit-eating grin. It's possibly the only job in the world where someone else will take a fall for your dirty deeds. Think Enron.

4. Human resource management
Congratulations, you're so good at covering your ass a company has hired you to cover theirs. When most people get frustrated at work they put their head down and mutter obscenities. Instead, you have the opportunity to fire the asshole who pissed you off. Furthermore, if you don't like your benefit package you can create your own.

5. Physician's assistant
Congratulations, you found a cover for being an escort. We all know you bought the nurse's outfit first and found the job second. Working bankers' hours gives you the ability to pursue more lucrative opportunities on the side.

6. Market research analyst
Congratulations, you figured out how to remove the stress and anxiety from marketing leaving you with pool parties and martinis. As an analyst, you get to try new products and impress your friends with the latest in cell phone technology. The best part: you'll still make plenty of money to pursue your coke habit.

7. Computer IT analyst
Congratulations, you figured out how to get a lucrative job in the IT market without any technical knowledge. As a translator between real people and the geeks you'll be revered by both. The real people will invite you to after work parties and give you an escape from nerddom. The geeks will be so thankful you've removed human interaction from their job they may let you play with their dual-core superpiplined hyperthreaded 64-bit processors.

8. Real estate appraiser
Congratulations, you've discovered the single career more criminal than financial advisor. You have more angles than a protractor. Not only do you get kickbacks, you have a waiting line. As if banks, insurers, and developers weren't enough, now you have every government agency on the Gulf Coast wanting to give you money for a job they've already done. Just remember, banks have to report every transaction over $10,000.

9. Pharmacist
Congratulations, you're a licensed drug dealer. You're college buddies are now serving mandatory minimums for selling a few tabs of acid at a Widespread show. Meanwhile, you're doling out Valium and Vicodin on a daily basis to the doctors' wives. If the people making the drugs have a stock symbol, it can't be that bad, right?

10. Psychologist
Congratulations, you found a way to get paid for kissing ass. This whole career was developed by a genius who figured out there was money to be made by telling codependents everything they wanted to hear. You have that special knack for convincing people their friends are wrong when they 'Get over it.'

Re:Humor: My Take

[scwizard]

I'm supplied consultant wasn't on there.
I knew someone who was a consultant. They told me they got payed tons of money to show corporate bosses pie charts and tell them they had to fire more people all day.

Re:Humor: My Take

[LazyBoy]

As a software engineer... Just remember, 10 minutes of inspiration gets more accomplished than a strong work ethic.

Thank you! Now, I know what I like about my job! I'm going to have to paraphrase that into a sig somewhere.

Re:Humor: My Take

[aevans]

5. Physician's assistant Congratulations, you found a cover for being an escort. We all know you bought the nurse's outfit first and found the job second. Working bankers' hours gives you the ability to pursue more lucrative opportunities on the side. you know Rachna?

A Psychologist is NOT a Psychiatrist

[daenris]

I'm amused by the fact that CNN seems to think a shrink and a psychologist are the same thing. Granted, a clinical psychologist who sees patients is rather similar to a psychiatrist, but in general two very different jobs.

Re:A Psychologist is NOT a Psychiatrist

[gd23ka]

You're damm right. You see a psychiatrist actually is a neurologist and a psychologist rolled in one. He's the guy who can put people on all sorts of weird medication and he can even prescribe LSD or even better stuff. That means he's a licensed drug dealer on top of being a psychologist.

Odds on, you are not a software engineer

[stonewolf]

I found this on the net, it says it better than I could:

"A software engineer is a licensed professional engineer who is schooled and skilled in the application of engineering discipline to the creation of software. A software engineer is often confused with a programmer, but the two are vastly different disciplines.

While a programmer creates the codes that make a program run, a software engineer creates the designs the programmer implements. By law no person may use the title "engineer" (of any type) unless the person holds a professional engineering license from a state licensing board and are in good standing. A software engineer is also held accountable to a specific code of ethics."

So... unless you have that little stamp that lets you certify a desgin you are not a software engineer and you may be breaking the law if you call yourself one.

You should take a look here for more info http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Software_engineering_ professionalism

I happen to be married to a state certified PE in mechanical engineering. She has the little stamp that lets her take legal liability for a mechnical design. The level of certification (EIT) required to allow her to graduate would send most so called software engineers running screaming into the night. After that she had to work for many years, collect a pile of references from PEs to be allowed to take the test, spend nights studying for a couple of years and then pass an 8 hour exam to get her PE.

Stonewolf

Re:Odds on, you are not a software engineer

[russotto]

I'm not in Texas or Canada; I can call myself a software engineer all I want. The supposed lawsuit won by NSPE in 48 states appears to be a Wikipedia fever dream.

The other ranking

[Arandir]

While software engineers are ranked with the best jobs in America, they are also ranked as thsoe most likely to bitch about their job. Every Friday evening down at Moe's Bar you can hear software engineers whine about the "good old days" when they had stock options, onsite laundry, and a foosball table in every cubicle. They only got a 2% raise on their $125,000 salary last year, and that is so ghastly unfair that they're going to complain to Slashdot about it. During working hours, of course.

Re:language skills

[P3NIS_CLEAVER]

I have used this one to keep clients in line... they are trying to explain a requirement, I will challenge them to write it on paper. Often times they can't (the rqt doesn't make sense!). They don't realize this until they write it.

Maybe in the States, but not here in Canada

[atomic_toaster]

CNNMoney and Salary.com have ranked the title of Software Engineer the best job in America.

Well, based on personal experience and the experience of friends/family, I can say that the job of the software engineer is apparently much less valued here in Canada than in the States. My husband is a software engineer, and he, with his four-year degree, went from university to a job that pays only $5K a year more than I make as an administrative temp (and my job doesn't require post-secondary education). That's after the temp agency takes its cut! If I were to get hired on permanent to do the same thing I am currently doing as a temp, I'd be making $10K to $15K more a year than my software engineer hubby. Also, I managed to find a job very quickly; it took my husband eight months to find the job that he currently has.

I realize that one person's anecdote does not a trend make, but I have observed a similar phenomenon among friends and family who are software engineers (and since I hung out in the "engineer's bar" on my spares during my post-secondary education, I know a lot of Canadian software engineers).

Designing, developing and testing computer programs requires some pretty advanced math skills and creative problem-solving ability. If you've got them, though, you can work and live where you want: Telecommuting is quickly becoming widespread.

I'd also have to say that this, too, is not true from my experience, for one very simple reason: very few companies trust that telecommuting is secure. This holds true whether it be a small company that develops games or a huge company geared towards top-secret national defence. It's much harder to secure X number of privately-networked home (or "home/business") machines than one large internal network. It's also much harder to restrict access to the physical machines and guard against theft. To many businesses, it is worthwhile to shell out the cash for offices for all of their employees as well as decent IT and security departments, rather than face the consequences of leaked information and/or stolen equipment.

yea, where are the telecommute jobs?!?!?

[javaxman]

I have to agree. You see, I've been doing a job search lately, and I've found that the only jobs where people talk up-front about telecommuting are contract gigs... and ones that don't pay, to boot.

Excluding, of course, those IBM jobs which are really "Mobile", i.e. you travel, visiting customer sites and such.

My evidence is only anecdotal, but telecommuting was much more of an option 8-10 years ago than it is now. There are some telecommute gigs, but they are neither 'widespread' as in there are many of them, nor is the practice 'widespread' as in, there aren't really that many companies willing to allow their full-time, non-contract employees to telecommute. Does this survey not take into account job security? Sure, I can almost always find another job... but I'd like to not look for work every few years, thanks!

Unfortunately, I moved out of the city a while ago, but fortunately, I'm finding myself willing to sit in traffic to get to a job. I may have to buy a hybrid, though- a car that shuts down the engine while sitting in traffic might be a good thing to have.

Salary

[COMON$]

Who are these people that make more than 67K a year as an analyst. Given I live in a city in the Midwest I only rake in all of 38,000 a year plus decent benefits. I am in charge of all tech support, anti virus, and remote site security for a network of 750 nodes spanning 500 miles. There is one other tech that helps me and we have 7 developers and 1 network admin. I can tell you that non of us make more than 46K.

I am not bitching here but I would really like to know who these people are!

Really?

[shoptroll]

So what happened to the Actuaries? Last year that was "THE" job to get. This year they're not even on the top 10. What happened? I guess that just shows how arbitrary these things are...

Looking at the article, Actuary drops to #24... Yet they get paid slightly more and there's less expected growth..

I guess it's cause we're heading back to a new tech boom?

Finding a matching job is HARD

[Skapare]

Most of the software engineering, software development, network administration, and systems administration job openings are only open to a few people. Look at all the requirements that the employers put on so many of those. For any one person looking, there's relatively few job openings around. I was looking at a job web site several years ago that had a forms page for selecting all the areas of your qualification. There were over 3300 areas to choose from!

Of course, the "ease of entry" line is BS

[Ogemaniac]

I know a number of "software engineers". Some didn't finish college and got the job. Some finished, but with unrelated degrees. The rest got four year CS degrees before starting the job. Everyone who finished their BS in CS immediately got jobs. Compare this to the route to tenure-track professor: 4 years undergrad. 5-7 years of grad school. 2-5 years of post-doc or adjunct. Success rate for PhD graduates of 20% or so. How in the hell could you possibly rate the "ease of entry" the same? Software engineer should get "A" for easy of entry because you do not even need a degree. Becoming a professor should get an "F", as it is probably the most difficult job to obtain, unless you are talking about community colleges, which are getting more and more competitive by the day. To get one of these jobs, you need years of teaching experience plus master's, either as a low-payed adjunct (I am talking McDonald's wage), or as a K12 teacher. PhD is becoming more and more necessary as well in desirable places to live.

Fun fact from the article summary: 110, 710

[Anonymous Coward]

Wow, the first and seventh ranked jobs are also in the top ten jobs? Amazin! Thanks for passing that along.

80 grand?

[Anonymous Coward]

As an average salary? On what planet, exactly?

Telecommuting is quickly becoming widespread

[JustNiz]

>> Telecommuting is quickly becoming widespread

That is so NOT true.

I am a very experienced C++/Linux software developer and have recently been on the job market.

My wife already works from home and I decided to try and also find a telecommuting position, in order to avoid the daily commute and high property prices associated with having to live reasonably close to most high-tech employers offices.

During 3 months of looking at thousands of otherwise eligible positions on monster.com, and also speaking with many agents, I didn't find a single position that was open to telecommuting.

It seems crazy to me that many employers would rather pay all the real-estate/heating/lighting/network/phone costs for an on-site employee, than allow them work in a home environment. Apart from anything else, I am far more productive when working from home just because of the lack of constant interruptions you get in an office.

At some point some agile forward-thinking company is going to realise the benefits of allowing the majority of their staff to telecommute, and they are going to make massive profits because of the reduction in costs and increase in productivity. Then all the other companies will have to get on board or die... but until then... oh well...

Well goodness me...

[GoddessOfDeath]

... - cynical much?

I believe that the original post was talking about a JOKE his wife made. To me it sounded like it was possibly an injoke, which they would both make use of from time to time, but even if it wasn't, if she was just after him for his money (which, sure, a few women are), she would hardly say so in front of a child.

and to the reply to this stating that romance is dead - what kind of women do you know? Most women I know (myself included) are delighted with guys that are funny, intelligent, good at cunnilingus etc. Money is a minor part of the package - you know, women realise that they can earn too - they don't HAVE to rely on the man. Enough money to live on is enough money to be happy with the man you love.

Re:Well goodness me...

[bladesjester]

I believe that you replied to the wrong post. I think this is the one you wanted.

Yes, I can be cynical with regard to relationships, but I don't think that romance is dead. In fact, I'm in a decent relationship (and have been for a while) with someone who really isn't after me for my money - if she were, she would have gone somewhere else.

I've just seen too many relationships involving people in this field turn into "I don't have to deal with him and his money spends really well" situations. It's sad, but it does happen (and personally, I think that one relationship that turns that way is too many).

Re:Well goodness me...

[GoddessOfDeath]

Yeah - I guess what I did was read your post, decide to reply to it, then read the other replies and get pissed off, then go back to your post - sorry...

And I agree that these relationships do exist and shouldn't, I just think that being cynical is not going to help anyone.

Re:Well goodness me...

[bladesjester]

My cynicism in that arena tends to be justified, though. I can generally tell which relationships are and aren't going to work within a few minutes of knowing the couple (I read people too well. ask my girlfriend). I admit that I am occasionally wrong in that arena, but occasionally is the operative word.

Besides which, that's really not something the guy's wife should be saying to the kid even if she was kidding. We tend to internalize what is "normal" in a relationship at a pretty young age. That can change, but it's an uphill battle. Having the chance that the kid might grow up to think that's the way relationships should work would be a disservice to the child.

Re:Well goodness me...

[GoddessOfDeath]

Besides which, that's really not something the guy's wife should be saying to the kid even if she was kidding. We tend to internalize what is "normal" in a relationship at a pretty young age. That can change, but it's an uphill battle. Having the chance that the kid might grow up to think that's the way relationships should work would be a disservice to the child.

This is true, and, setting the whole money-grubbing thing aside, won't somebody please think of the children! That sounds sarcastic, I know, but I am actually serious - so many people have no idea how much of what goes on in a child's life is absorbed and later may come back to haunt them.

Still - back to my original point - people do joke about those things all the time - sometimes to hide a slight bitterness. That is (realising that the original post was meant as a joke, and we may be taking it all too seriously), in the original post, the wife may have been unhappy that she doesn't see her husband very often, so she jokes about it, "finding the silver lining"... Bear in mind, however, that I am not a psychologist, and she may, indeed, be after him for his money, for all I know. I just like to give people the benefit of the doubt.

Terminology?

[Tablizer]

"Software Engineer" is kind of a vague term. It means different things in different companies. Sometimes a software engineer is a "programmer who's allowed to have opinions".

OOP Yawn

[Anonymous Coward]

There is nothing magic about OOP. It is personal preference. There is no proof it is always better.

Instant Messaging?

[Anonymous Coward]

Sounds like the kinds of problems you've presented are solved just as effectively by using an IM program as communicating face-to-face: the chance for interruption, short, repeated bursts of communication, footnotes and addenda to one's text after it has been sent... even emotion can be represented to a slight degree :D

Re:Math? Depends WHAT you're engineering

[bwcbwc]

Actually, the math behind even business applications can be pretty intense. It's usually hidden behind APIs or rules of thumb. Which is probably the problem. Business apps are usually just the same building block put together in different structures.
Some examples:
-Encryption Algorithms
-Compression Algorithms
-Hash Table Construction (do you remember why the size of the hash table is best to be a prime number?).

You can't really call yourself a software ENGINEER unless you know the math (or at least you did once upon a time) behind the techniques. It's kind of like the difference between an Electrical Engineer and an Electrician. An electrician will know Ohm's law, wire gauges and the electric code (among other things) using standard copper and aluminum wire compositions. An electrical engineer will know how to calculate the conductive characteristics of a wire made of any material, including non-standard configurations.

Even in business apps that just use APIs, the math can come in handy for debugging and testing. At a minimum it lets you sanity check that encryption API you downloaded off of Sourceforge.

Yes, but remember, you only get to do it once ...

[dsmall]

It's nice to talk about being an SA or a software engineer, and most of us have endured utterly clueless bosses. But look. Whether you're freshly out of college, about to turn 30 or 40 ... the thing is ... you only get to do it -once-.

Do you really want to be writing Yet Another (heaven forbid) spelling checker? Do you want to work for a soul-dead manager who's just been told there's something called a "World Wide Web" out there? Remember, you are never going to get this time, nor these circumstances, again.

I elected to work as hard as anyone and teach an Atari ST to be a Mac. (Yeah, it's been a few years). Looking back, I'd do it again. Writing magazine articles on how things worked was a world of fun. I'd do it again.

For me invention and pushing the envelope are part of the beauty of living and part of the process. I've tried 9-5'ing it, and it just doesn't work. For some people, it seems to.

But think about it. If your innovations keep getting shot down at work (Do you work for AT&T?) ... maybe you should be on your own.

Thanks,

Dave Small

Best and last guy still doing it

[Anonymous Coward]

Forbes mentioned this about the last guy doing this kind of thing. I graduated in '99 CS from university. No job. Now I'm taking a trade. Am I dumb? I got the degree. I worked hard. There is no work writing software. If I were in India or China, I suspect I would have gotten a job years ago. I keep thinking that even though people keep yapping 'oh its growing', I keep thinking "BULLSHIT!" Its growing somewhere else. Certainly if you live in Canada, computing mean 'turning on the pc and doing spreadsheets and knowing word'. Software? Algorithms? Go to India. Pathetic career choice. I really love computers and problem solving. Great if you like being unemployed though.

We Still Aren't Trusted to Telecommute-Gas Prices.

[Anonymous Coward]

"Currently I telecommute full time. Is it the norm yet? No, but it will be. Everyone involved saves time and money."

Telecommuting is the silver lining to high gas prices.

Career paths ...

[OzPixel]

Now that, I can see. I've only been working in the field for a couple years but I can already see that the room for growth in software development is unparalelled. What I mean is that people who start out as grunt developers often have a chance to become a team manager--it depends on how well they can estimate mentally and breakdown a project into tasks (something programmers are required to do in code anyways).

I see things a little differently to you - if you want to progress in your career (i.e. make more $$), then your choices in IT are management, management, or maybe even ... management. There's no good way for a technically-minded person to use their years of experience but stay technical and advance/earn more.
I have little interest in becoming any kind of manager, because I've seen other people do it - within 6 months they never do any hands-on work, they're all running around doing budgets and chasing timesheets and spending most of their days in meetings.
Why would I want to do management work badly when I can do technical work well ? - and yet only the management track people get the chance to earn the real money.

Jobs are in America but the Engineers are in India

[Anonymous Coward]

IOW "software jobs in America are the best jobs for Indian engineers".

This SPAM is part of the IT industry's preparation for another H1-B invasion.

But do employers value math skills for developers?

[walterbyrd]

From what I have observed, employers don't give a rat's azz about math skills for developers.

Academic types types can go on all day and night about how learning math teaches you to think, etc. Nobody in the real world gives a hoot.

Look at the job boards. Employers want recent, varifiable, experience, in whatever technologies the employer happens to use.

Acadmians are so out of touch with the real world, it's a joke.

Disclosure: bachelor's in math, with concentration in computer science.

Best job in America??? Based on what?

[kc7rad]

Are they basing this comment simply on earning potential? If so, that's far too narrow of scope. Even so, Living in Las Vegas, I know of card dealer and cocktail waitresses that make more money than I do... and THEY get more exercise.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not complaining about my salary at all. Just wondering about their judgement criteria.

What's better... Sitting in a cube all day or working outdoors? Being on-call 24x7 or doing the 9-5 thing? Seeing the sky and hearing the birds outdoors three or four times a day or enjoying it all the time? The selection of "Best Job" is purely a subjective one that only an individual can make. If money is the most important thing in your life, then maybe their statement is true for you.

Maybe I am starting to go through my mid-live crisis, but dang I hate being stuck indoors having to sit at a computer for 8, 9 or 10 hour or more a day.

Ken
http://www.radstream.com/
http://www.farmsourcing.com/
http://www.iwanttofarm.com/

Degree Envy

[jsrjsr]

I don't care that I don't have a degree. I do care when someone tells me I can't do what I've been doing for years without one.

I don't see how that's "Degree Envy".

Are there advantages to having a degree? Sure. And if I were nearing 30 instead of 50, I'd think more seriously about obtaining one. Right now, the benefits don't seem to justify the costs. 'Course, pursuit of knowledge for its own sake is one benefit that's hard to pin a value on....

I'm sure that those of us without degrees would be willing to declare a truce. We won't bring the issue up if no one else does.

What I've learned

[Alan Shutko]

We have a reasonably friendly telecommuting environment. I'm a software developer/architect/team lead at a Fortune 200 company doing web application development for internal and external use. Here's what I've learned:

• Most of the people I work with work from home one day every 7-14 days. It's so common one or two people in my immediate work group post WFH messages each day and nobody blinks an eye.
• The fact that we have sites in St. Louis and Bloomington, MN working on the same projects makes this a lot more feasible. Most of the meetings I attend are over conference calls. There are days when I need to be in a meeting in person because the whole group will be there, but those are pretty rare.
• "Needing to get stuff done" is a perfectly accepted reason to WFH. If you're working from home, it's sufficiently more difficult for people to hit you with drive-by demands that your productivity is much higher. This is true for business analysts, management, release management, but especially true for developers. If we have enough work to get done, developers tend to be about twice as productive working from home as we are in the office, and management recognizes this. On some extremely "aggressive" projects, I've been WFH 2-3 days a week with the encouragement of senior management.
• Face time is still important. The offhand conversations, or things you overhear in cube land are important, as are the relationships you develop dealing with people on an ad-hoc basis. Some of my most important contributions have been to projects I'm not working on, but I wandered by a coworkers desk to shoot the breeze and found they were dealing with a problem I had an insight on, or that bouncing ideas off me allowed my coworker to get a new idea. This is an important enough thing we try hard to get people from the BLM and STL offices together to meet. We can't fund this for everyone, but right now in my role I'm looking at a trip up every other month. I don't necessarily have an agenda, but my management recognizes that there will be large value just getting me and the BLM folks together, even if we don't know what that value will be ahead of time.
• Corporate infrastructure is vital. We've got VPNs, corporate IM, conference lines out the wazoo. Every developer has a laptop. That makes it a lot more feasible for people to WFH on an ad-hoc basis than it would be if we only had one individual working from home.
• Telecommuting is a privilege to be earned. When you just start out with us, you won't be allowed to WFH much. Part of that is that there's a lag in getting the VPN set up. A bigger part is when you start out, there's so much to learn that you need low-latency mentoring that only face-to-face provides. But the biggest thing is that you have to show that you'll get stuff done. If you turn out to be an employee that needs babysitting, we'll frown on you working from home, but if you show you'll get the job done you'll get a ton of flexibility.
• The higher you get, the more you need to be there. When you're an individual contributer, it's a lot easier to WFH. Heads-down coding is best done in isolation. But the higher you rise in the chain of command, the more meetings you're in, the more likely those meetings will be in person, the more you need to focus on relationships inside and outside your working group. I can still work from home once every couple weeks or so. My boss can, but slightly less often. My boss's boss? Not so much. The higher you get, the more your job is coordination and less individual contribution, and that means that you'll need to be there in person more often to know what needs help.
  

Here is what I have found

[Anonymous Coward]

By reading your post especially this:

"I have a bachelor's in math+cs, master's in cs, and I'm working toward a PhD in cs." ...

You have been spending so much time in college/university you have little advice for the real world. Thanks and good night.

microcode

[Jookey]

The other best industrys in america: music movies delivering pizza

Poor advancement prospects

[Stiletto]

Most software engineering jobs I've seen have a salary-ceiling and a responsibility-ceiling. It's a great job for someone under 30 or so. In general it still pays way way above average, and is relatively meaningful compared to other office jobs. It sure beats brick-laying and roofing. But there's nowhere to go. You'll always be on one of the bottom two rungs of the corporate ladder. When you're 55, you'll still be writing code and making around the same (inflation adjusted) salary.