Slashdot Mirror
Wisconsin Could Ban Mandatory Microchip Implants
01101101 writes "The Duluth News Tribune is reporting that Wisconsin could be the first state to ban mandatory microchip implants in humans. The plan was authored by Rep. Marlin Schneider, D-Wisconsin Rapids and Gov. Jim Doyle plans to sign the bill. The bill still leaves an opening for voluntary chipping." Slashdot covered one instance of mandatory microchip implants back in February.
Did I just step into Bizzaro World?
Ironically, here in Beverly Hills there is a proposed measure to enforce manditory breast implants in women. Same country, different worlds, I guess.
I realize that people have a choice as to their jobs and could choose to have a different job rather than be implanted, but the line has to be drawn somewhere. Having chips planted into the body of an emloyee is pretty darn good place to start.
If brevity is the soul of wit, then how does one explain Twitter?
RFID chip implants don't have to be mandatory. All you have to do is make it a rule that you can't fly, or cross the border, or get a drivers license without one.
Then they will be de-facto mandatory and those who don't get them are society's rejects or should be investigated for being possible terror suspects.
Some say he is made with ascii, others that he is eyeballed daily by millions. All we know is, he is known as the Sig
any deals or mail-in rebates?
Its good to see someone is looking out for individual rights. Maybe its because the law was passed prior to the industry growing large enough to have an effective lobby. I hope that more states see the potential and pass similar laws. If it is passed, it will be interesting to see how it is enforced, and how many companies try and get around it. Also, I could see health insurance giving big "discounts" to people who sign up to get a chip.
http://bgcommonsense.blogspot.com
It is good news, but this isn't this titled incorrectly. Shouldn't it be something like "Wisconsin is the first state to pass a law making it illegal for companies to make microchip implants mandatory". The way it's written it sounds like someone has already made chip implants mandatory and Wisconsin is fighting it... They aren't, they are just being a bit proactive (for once).
Funnypics
A legal ban on mandatory microchip implantation is pointless in a way, as the real threat is that they will become so pervasive that it will be impossible to lead a normal life (e.g. buy groceries, vote, hold a drivers license) without one.
"The bill still leaves an opening for voluntary chipping."
The problem with this is that desparate people will "volunteer" if employers, etc. EXPECT them to volunteer. Just like waiters, waitresses "volunteered" for being exposed to second hand smoking, before smoking was banned completely. Voluntary chipping will hurt the most volnurable segments of the society, who can't even afford not to" volunteer", while the more powerful can stay free.
For this reason, the bill stinks as it is.
Well that's how they did it at my place of work. Ok, so it wasn't microchips but I'm sure they'll use the same principle when the time comes. Usual 'security reasons and if you've nothing to hide...' bollocks.
init 11 - for when you need that edge.
What's next? Mandatory voting? Exercise? Health improvements? Lifestyle changes?
Because we certainly can't trust a person, but an implant we can.
P.S. This is also a great idea for a sci-fi movie.
He who knows best knows how little he knows. - Thomas Jefferson
The federal government has stomped all over state proclamations like this before, either by hook or by crook. What makes anyone think it won't happen again?
"The government grants you rights, not the other way around."-- beav007. Yes, these people really exist...
Would this bill apply to the company that requires the RFID injection? It stated in the previous story that the RFID chips were not required to maintain employment, so taking a job in the area that requires the chips would be voluntary wouldn't it?
Those who know, do not speak. Those who speak, do not know. ~Lao Tzu
I can see it now: "Oh, you're still using the 128K chip? How unfortunate. Most of the people in this neighborhood have the 256. Well, perhaps we'll see you at the community tea party, but I really don't think we will. Good day."
Who in their right mind would make it mandatory to implant something in your body? Were you born with the chip in your body, no? Then it doesn't belong there.
it's of the necessitary to resist the Permanent Career Implant Chip. I thank our friends in Wisconsin for leading the way!
What is the difference between having a chip implanted and having some system that can recognize you by DNA, heat signature, or whatever? Those systems are coming and they're exactly the same thing except without the invasive chip injection procedure. This chip thing is just a temporary measure until the other technology advances.
There won't be much you can do about it. Businesses love this for security because there is no passcode for someone to steal and employees don't need to remember passcodes. Credit card companies would really love it to help prevent fraud (in theory saving us all money, but we know how that goes). This has all sorts of uses, good and bad. It's coming though...
The ratio of people to cake is too big
I can imagine the dialog between a candidate and the future employer: "Yes, I think you are just perfect for the job. Now, all you have to do is fill those forms, get chipped, and..." "Whoooa! Isn't it illegal? You cannot force me to that!" "You are right but I am not forcing you to take the job either!" The guy takes then the second best, which in turn will accept the chip promptly...
"There is always an easy solution to every human problem -- neat, plausible, and wrong."
H. L. Mencken
who had the first episode of Futurama fash into his head?
Ask not what you can do for your country. Ask what your country did to you
The law should read, "under NO circumstances will any RFID tag or chip ever, ever be implanted in a human being," and the penalty for those CEOs or brain-dead MBAs who violate that law should be dispossessed, disenfranchised, and sentenced to hard labor cleaning up pig fecies with occasional breaks so they can be beaten with a clue-stick. The repugnance of this technology should be obvious to people from all segments of the political spectrum, even those right-wing pseudo-Christian jokers for "number of the beast" reasons.
Do what you can, with what you have, where you are.
...now, how about stopping attempts to require microchip implants (PDF link; sorry) in livestock which would render the few remaining family farms untenable and complete agritech's stranglehold on our food supply.
All's true that is mistrusted
I can not imagine the pain my arms would feel with that many chips in them!
We are the Borg...
Is this because of recent incidents in Wisconsin?
I don't want microchips in my food either, but I think this law misses the point a little.
...definitely welcome our mandatory microchip implant banning overlords!!!!
Oooh, ooh, I need to change my shirt! My heart has bled all over it!
Could I be any more liberal if I tried? Perhaps if I were a communist. Ooops, no -- even communists favor mandatory invasive surveillance!
I'm all about "rights" and "civil liberties" and "the Constitution." I don't support "extraordinary rendition" of "American citizens" to "cruel and repressive Middle Easter regimes" to be "brutally tortured!"
I don't think the police should be allowed to hook electrodes to people's testicles, or hand them off to the Army where they are held for years without access to a lawyer!
I believe in a zone of "privacy" that extends all the way to the upper surface of the skin, because I'm a neo-anarchist far-left ultra-liberal freak!
I love to read insane quotes like: "Wisconsin would be the first state to say, 'Hey, at least get our permission first'," Albrecht said.
Seriously, man, if we let these pinko Democrats in Wisconsin just BAN mandatory injection of tracking chips into the skin, the next thing you know they'll be demanding warrants for phone taps and outlawing mandatory forehead bar codes!!
Because we all know that is the REAL reason why a republican is pushing this bill.
Oops, this comment got double posted. The real one is here.
The ratio of people to cake is too big
How about a law barring the requirement that any person must undergo semi-permanent or medical modification from their a physical state (worded so to exclude fitness requirements etc)? RFID injections, barcode tattoos, or anything else in the future that would be considered rather permanent. The semi-permanent is in there because tats *can* be removed with some difficulty as can likely the RFID identifier, but one could still exclude things like haircuts etc (very long hair is a danger in some occupations such as industrial settings)
This must really upset Ol' Sensenbrenner.
I was supposted to have a chip implanted in my head this whole time?
Guess the one on my shoulder will have to do.
Those who believe the Internet is private,
find their privates are on the Internet.
Fast forward to future...
Oh, if you want to fly you have to. But it's all voluntary, you don't have to fly.
Oh, if you want a job at XXX, you have to. But it's all voluntary, you don't have to work at XXX.
Oh, if you want to vote, you have to. But it's all voluntary, you don't have to vote.
Oh, if you want to buy food, you have to. But it's all voluntary, you don't have to eat.
Nobody forces you, ok. All your choice.
We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
Now the state he used to lead is poised to become the first to ban governments and private businesses from forcing such implants on employees, privacy advocates say.
Employers wouldn't force you to have an implant any more than they would force you to be there from 9-5. You are always free to find another job with terms more to your liking, whether those be work hours, responsibilities, or name badge/RFID requirements. This sounds like something French students would have passed.
Well that's a different matter altogether. I have no idea how the particular devices work in that other article. RFID seems pretty stupid but a smartcard style chip would be secure.
The ratio of people to cake is too big
of Human Rights. Clearly ethics, common sense, and human decency are not memes that been internalized by business leaders and politicians enough to know that issues like this are not permissible. We need to update the Bill of Rights and Universal Declaration of Human Rights to make it absolutely crystal clear that these actions are not permissible. Then we should provide harsh penalities for all those who choose to violate them.
Do what you can, with what you have, where you are.
What?!? We're talking about silicon implants? Uh... never mind!
I've abandoned my search for truth; now I'm just looking for some useful delusions.
He got chipped a few weeks ago ;)
do() || do_not();
Watch out all you supervisors sat there with your stop watch timing the call centre dweebs toilet breaks.. you're about to be rendered obsolete!
The proposal would leave the door open for [snip] parents to track their children under an amendment offered by Rep. Scott Suder, R-Abbotsford.
Put the chips in the kids! All this legislation appears to do is push the issue onto the next generation, it does not really protect anybody.
I hope Wisconsin is bold enough to take the initiative on other futuristic problems such as "WI bans mandatory human to robot brain transplants".
Hurry, sign the bill! They've got a battering ram at the door and I'm running out of furniture!
Dogs are our pets, our slaves, our domesticated kept species. We chip them without their consent because it suits our purposes, and as our pet species they do not have the same rights as us, even if we exercise control over them on behalf of their best interests.
Now you know how the employers who want to put chips into their employees think of their employees.
The enemies of Democracy are
I live in Wisconsin, and let me tell you from first hand experience ... Governor Doyle has found some pretty damn good ways to waste his taxpayers money! This is just another example.
It could still technically be Illegal to force implants, but if you are "forced" to economically such as not being able to buy or sell (Bible's prediction) then you are still compelled to be implanted... "causeth" (jkv) is not forced.
Silly politicians, You cannot legislate the end away, you must watch for it and be ready.
See you can lose the chip still...
... im sure theres plenty of ways to cut it out of you... leave you bleeeding in an alley, swamp, whatever... Hell if i had a high security job this would make me MORE worried rather than realising how useful it is... Ive just become a target, you cant just swipe my keycard... you have to cut of my arm, or cut open werever they injected it so you can use it...
...
Ill throw a hypothetical... Say your car now starts using your fingerprint... If you get car jacked... well... lets just say the jacker is going to want to keep the key shall we... *snip*
now re evaluate how much you want that handly little security dodad INSIDE you... if someone wants it
If anyone doesnt realise how much more dangerous these "security" measures are becoming then by all means... go get yourself chipped... i hope they dont put it somewhere too hard to get used to living without... cause if they ever start using them for money
XML - A clever joke would be here if
is it true that you can destroy these chips by sticking the afflicted part of your body in a microwave (for a couple of seconds)? i just like planning ahead...
Jesus said to his disciples: "If you don't have a sword, sell your cloak and buy one" - Luke 22:36
Because otherwise the terrorists would win.
As long as we have chips here, we'll be able to export chip use to other countries. The chips will end civil war and promote peace, because countries with pervasive microchip implementation programs don't go to war against each other.
This bill out of Wisconsin is providing aid and comfort to our enemies. Why, I just heard Osama say how Americans implanting microchips under their skin would be a crushing blow to radical Islam.
Why do those fatcat politicians in Wisconsin hate America?
Q: What did the comedian say to the crowd?
A: If I knew, this joke would be funny.
Are you implying that Americans will just sit back and let that happen in the first place? I don't know a single person that would stand for the government pulling that one over on us.
Try flying, driving, or crossing the border without ID. Try opening a bank account without presenting your government ID number (aka SSN). Try getting insurance, a credit card, a home loan, a car loan, a place to rent, and utilities for that place without presenting a SSN.
Do you realize that we have a backdoor national ID card system right now? Legislation was passed to require an interlinking of driver's license record systems. Driver's licenses have to have biometric data encoded on them. A Supreme Court decision in the past few years means that you can't refuse to present them to law enforcement. Originally, this was portrayed as being intended to keep drunk drivers (especially commercial truck drivers) from just moving to another state to get a new license, but today it's being used by remote jurisdictions to enforce parking and speeding tickets with no means of appeal if the system has you wrong.
We set up an unaccountable national database of people who are not allowed to fly that is based purely on names and aliases instead of more reliable data. Senators have been kept from flying because of the list.
Police today can enter your home, plant listening devices, keystroke monitors, etc. and leave without letting you know and forbidding landlords from telling you about it. They can tap your phones if it's suspected that someone they might be interested in might use the phone (under their discretion). They can snatch records of what you read from the library, who you email and what sites you visit from your ISP, what potentially embarassing medical conditions you might have from your doctor, and any and all business transactions you make from your bank and credit card companies, and none of them can tell you under threat of criminal prosecution.
Our government imprisoned people without trial and without access to laywers in violation of the 6th Amendment. Our government spies on citizens without a warrant in violation of the 4th Amendment. It tortures prisoners in violation of the Geneva Convention as well as the 5th, 6th, and 8th Amendments, and there is a significant portion of the populace that approves of these actions since it makes them feel safer. It even prevents protesters from gathering outside of "Free Speech Zones" in front of the President in violation of the 1st Amendment, and people still aren't outraged.
Let me tell you what Americans will do. NOT A DAMNED THING. All this government has to do is explain how it will protect us against terrorists, child molesters, Iranians, or whoever the hell we're supposed to be most scared of today, and so-called citizens will line up to be sheared like the good little sheep they are.
If you think there is such a thing as public outrage at the loss of our rights, then you haven't been paying attention to in this post-9/11 world. Do you know what gets people angry? High gas prices, incompetent handling of a disaster, and the stink of failure in war. Civil rights doesn't even register as an issue thanks to the learned helplessness of the American people. Just shelter us from harm, and you can do anything with that guy's rights.
If it's for-profit but free, you're not the customer -- you're the product (e.g., the Slashdot Beta's "audience").
One hurts, one doesn't. One can get infected, the others can't. One can be cut out of the unfortunate employee's flesh and stashed in a wristwatch...
I very much like the idea of being able to surrender my credit cards to a man with a gun.
"Now I now what we all went through with the re-chipping last November after the SqueezeMe worm wiped out half of your 'CRQ 3458's. (By the way, I spoke to Bob's wife yesterday and she he's had a relapse from his botched replacement; keep praying for them.) Anyway, HQ said the new vendor has guaranteed there won't be any repeats this time.
"The new guys supposedly have a new retrieval method that doesn't leave as big of a scar as their competitor and they even have a die option for making the incision look like a mole..."
science is a religion
Oh, and forgot about Ali Saleh Kahlah al-Marri who has been held as an enemy combatant for over two years.
Unlike Padilla, al-Marri is not a U.S. citizen, but he was arrested in the U.S.
Some say he is made with ascii, others that he is eyeballed daily by millions. All we know is, he is known as the Sig
In our consumerist society most people already wear the sign of the beast.
We have the best government that money can buy.
With all the scary stuff in the news about how Myspace is going to steal your children, I wouldn't be surprised if chipping children became "highly suggested" for safety's sake... And once it's common, FastPass type convenience of having a chip will make this more palatable, even desirable by many.
Mandatory though? I'm not sure it would get to that stage. It just might get to be really inconvenient not to be chipped, if everyone else is.
Chris
Exactly. And if they are using DNA or retina, or whatever you're going to have the same problem. If someone needs your eye then maybe they'll cut it out.
This problem will exist no matter what you do. If they steal an access card then maybe they need the PIN also. Are you going to give them the PIN? How can they be sure? Maybe some torture just to make sure you gave them the correct PIN?
If fact is, if you work with something that makes you a target then you're going to be a target no matter what.
The ratio of people to cake is too big
Will these implants run Linux?
As someone with a slew of medical problems, I still see this as a violation of human rights. These microchips would be abused by the government, just one more way for us to all be turned into things owned by the government rather than humans in charge of our own lives. Right now we're humans owned (um, the draft? where they can FORCE men into service?) We're edging toward a civil war. The Constitution guarantees us the right to overthrow the government in cases such as what it has been doing. Oh, wait. That's right. We no longer have our Constitutional rights.
It's a girl!
microcheese implants, however, are still mandatory
Remember kids, with great power comes great opportunity to abuse that power
The problem is that the Declaration of Independence isn't a legal document, and confers no rights to anyone.
I'm all for revolution, but it's not going to be "legal."
An implanted Microchip is far different than a simple Drivers license.
What wonders will this bring the human race?
I cant wait for my life to get easier... I just need to get chipped!
Because the Chip will fix EVERYTHING!!!
All Your Chips, They Belong to US!
This reminds me of a re-run episode of that 70's show I just saw ... in which Lori and Kelso were going out, and Red had a glimpse into the future ... all the way to 1997 ... where they were all in space suits eating a futuristic dinner ... and then Red gets up, foreign robot Fez gives him his Jet pack, and Red flies off through the open ceiling to Saturn for a business trip.
If people 10 years from now think mandatory embedded RFID tags are swell, the law will be repealed. To say nothing of the supremacy of Federal law over State law. The law is good for press I guess.
rooooar
You know, the states can use whatever speed limit they like. They just don't get any Federal Highway Funding. That they ALREADY PAID INTO.
So cynical today....
Blar.
Eventually, RFIDs will become commonplace. A world currency will be set up, cash will be discarded, and RFIDs will be used to track our every move by Big Brother. I have a feeling there are some Christians in my home state that may have seen this coming, but in the end, even if this legislation passes, it won't do any good.
"Progress" is coming, and it won't care about what Wisconsin thinks.
I don't understand the point of RFID implants. We come born with plenty of unique identifiers. Why do we need to implant more? Why can't we just unlock a door or bring up our medical records with our finger prints??? Though, I wouldn't be any keener on giving out my finger prints than I would getting something implanted in me. At least I could always go back and remove the implant.
I love to read how great this law is and how great it will be to keep terrorists out of our country. All this does is invade our privacy, tell the gov't where we are at all times (trust me. if they can wire tap then they can RFID tap) and the only people it keeps from things is innocent people. Anytime we come up with a great security idea, it hinders the general public and the bad guys always have a way around it. The stupidest thing is that RFID tags can be zapped clean with a $10 device. If it can be zapped it then can be reprogrammed. If it can't be reprogrammed then it can be conterfeit. This does nothing other than give spammers another way to target us. they will drive around reading our tags. THIS IS A BAD IDEA. I REALLY HATE WHEN I SEE THESE CONTROLLING IDEAS AND THEY USUALLY COME FROM A POLITICIAN WITH A D IN FRONT OF HIS/HER REPRESENTING STATE. I can't wait until stores use RFID tags. I will zap half my order clean then walk out with free food. RFID tags have a limited use and that doesn't include Big Brother. Sorry for ranting. I just know there are a million other things we should be working towards. Tagging humans isn't one of them.
I don't know what Bible you've been reading, but Revelation 13:17 says, "and he provides that no one will be able to buy or to sell, except the one who has the mark, either the name of the beast or the number of his name." Whether you are a Christian or not, the message is obvious: it's about economics, not about dragons (or whatever point you were trying to make). I don't think that's a hard leap of logic to make considering the comments made about what the RFID technology can/will be used for.
Legislation is futile.
MjM
XKCD:Xeric Knowledge Comically Dispen
I am always amused by the line used by authorities
"If you have nothing to hide, you won't object to a search"
My response to a police officer was
"If as you say, I should have nothing to hide so why should I object to the search, also means that since I have nothing to hide, you have no basis for the search in the first place"
Surprisingly, the officer let me go.
Not a measly RFID chip, though. I want Google plugged into my brain so I can stop typing to look stuff up. Someone call me when I can sign up for THAT implant.
I agree that we do have the right. However, I imagine anyone trying to overthrow the government will get attention from various Three-Letter Agencies as well as the Secret Service.
What government, regardless of natural human rights, is going to allow itself to be overthrown? The Nepalese king just gave up some of his power to avoid that.
Say the employee whom gets the implnats gets $60,000 a year while the tweed over in the corner who's afraid of his goverment and lives with his mother in the basement without the implants only makes $30,000 a year? Then the implants become a neccessity. I fell the need for a non-implanted persons bill of rights. (NIPBOR) AND THEN the makers of niptuck can make a spinoff named: Nip Tuck: implanted removers.
It's not -1 Flamebait! It's +5 Funny. You just didn't get the joke...
It's sad, but I can't find a single thing to disagree with in that statement.
If you can frame the debate as "protecting" the "homeland" from "terrorist" or "child molesters," you can pretty much make whatever laws you goddamn well want to.
Because obviously anyone who opposes it is a terrorist or child molester.
"Ladies and gentlemen, my killbot features Lotus Notes and a machine gun. It is the finest available."
The eventual problem is that there are people who will want these chips, mostly the uninformed or those who do not think ahead. You cannot ban the chips entirely because of this, but I think you need to ban it as a necessity to vote, to drive, and other things. I would think you could argue against the chip as your drivers license because it is invasive to your privacy, as long as you can prove people can keep track of you. If we have decent supreme court judges the RFID chips shouldn't be as bad as a Driver's License. Maybe I'll send a letter to my senator.. me -> Cowtipper of Wisconsin
Support the source, Open Source! An entire site developed with OSS
Interestingly enough, Revelations 13:16 - the verse that the infamous number 666 comes from - says that at the end of the world, the devil will force anyone who wants to engage in commerce to be marked on his right hand or forehead. The original Greek verb used is some translations meant "to stick into the skin", normally a reference to a tattoo.
However, a mandatory chip "stuck into the skin" would also qualify in this translation. Evidently, the end is near. o.o
DATABASE WOW WOW
The Declaration of Independence is not a basis for law. Its sole purpose was to tell the King of Englad to go fuck himself. However, it does set the tone and spirit of the Constitution, and is part of the reason we say we have a "free country." As for revolution: federal law bans violent overthrow of the government. However, the Constitution provides peaceful means to accomplish the same thing. I think this is rather hypocritical, considering how the writers of the Constitution overthrew the previous government with much bloodshed.
I really do think we need a revolution. We need to keep the same Constitution but get rid of all the politicians and about 75% of the U.S. Code. There is too much pork and corruption. I've sent letters to my representatives both at the state and federal level. I make my opinions known to my peers. Still, no change. Eventually I hope we achieve a critical mass of dissent and force a peaceful revolution.
24 beers in a case, 24 hours in a day. Coincidence? I think not!
Fast forward to future...
Oh, if you want to fly you have to. But it's all voluntary, you don't have to fly.
Oh, if you want a job at XXX, you have to. But it's all voluntary, you don't have to work at XXX.
Oh, if you want to vote, you have to. But it's all voluntary, you don't have to vote.
Oh, if you want to buy food, you have to. But it's all voluntary, you don't have to eat.
Nobody forces you, ok. All your choice.
There is no way to "force" another person to do anything, other than to physically move their bodies such that they do that thing, in which case that person didn't really do it, you did. Beyond that, any action a person performs is their choice.
That said, it is possible to alter a situation (or another person's perception of a situation) such that it is more in another person's interest to do one thing than another thing, by promising or threatening to do something or another if that person does one thing instead of the other. And of course, if you do this by threatening to do something unethical (e.g. threat of violence) if they make a choice you dislike, then that itself is unethical. That's what we call coercion, and it's a Bad Thing.
It is not unethical for a company or anyone else to require some voluntary action of you to get some voluntary action from them. Taken in isolation, none of the things you've listed above are in and of themselves unethical. If I run an airline, or a place of employment, or a grocery store, (voting is another thing entirely), I should have the right to demand anything I want from you in exchange for what you want from me.
Now, demanding something like a chip implant *should* be a very bad business decision on my part, because that's not something that people are really going to want to do. It's a very high price to pay, and so if people can at all avoid paying it, then they will. They problem is that they can't reasonable avoid paying it. The problem is not that individual establishments are making unreasonable demands like this. The problem is that this is happening in a social structure where there is a huge difference in power between the people making the unreasonable demands, and the people they are being demanded of. It's in effect the same reason that a monopoly or oligarchy can charge unreasonably high prices and people will pay them: power differential. The people and institutions making the demands don't need any individual nearly as much as those individuals need those making the demands. As a result, those in power can demand almost anything they want, and everyone will comply. In effect, they "have no choice" - all choices are unwanted, so people have to cut their losses and pick the lesser evil.
Some of this I would fault to problems in the capitalist-come-mercantilist economic system we've got, which does not provide adequate protection against the formation of market failures, i.e. monopolies, cartels, and oligopolies. But a lot of it I would fault to the one pervasive kind of monopoly that nobody really seems to question anymore: the monopoly on the "legitimate" use of force that we call government. I say that the use of force being legitimate or illegitimate has no bearing on position or title. When the use of force is legitimate in some situation, it's legitimate in the hands of anyone in that situation, and when it is generally illegitimate in any situation, it it illegitimate even for the so-called government to use in such situations. Ethics are ethics, and title or position have no effect on whether an action is ethical or not.
This post has gone far off from where I started and I'm not sure where I'm going with it anymore, so I think I'll stop now.
-Forrest Cameranesi, Geek of all Trades
"I am Sam. Sam I am. I do not like trolls, flames, or spam."
Laws preventing the violent overthrow of the government, or advocating the same, only appeared on the books in the 1930s when Communism became a threat to this country.
My Sysadmin Blog
I don't think much of the Christian Right really cares. If you look closely, they're the ones pushing to start Armaggaedon. Why do you think Bush and company are trying to start wars in the Middle East? Its to fulfill some ancient and vaguely defined prophecy.
My Sysadmin Blog
Several of the people held in Gitmo are Iraqi citizens who were picked up for wearing casio watches - because the insurgents were using casio watches as timers for IEDs.
Boy, that's a whale of a half-truth. Even if we assume it's true (source?) are we then to extrapolate that every Iraqi with a Casio watch is being held at Gitmo? That Gitmo is infinitely large and costs nothing to run? Even that those picked up for wearing a Casio watch were not investigated and had no other reasons to be detained?
More likely is that there are a couple detainees being held at Gitmo who were arrested for crimes and criminal connections and were discovered through police work and investigation and that the watch they were wearing was one of dozens of data points that went into the arrest.
But if you can show that there are detainees at Gitmo who are there only because they dared to wear Casio I'll eat my post.
My God, it's Full of Source!
OUTSIDE_IP=$(dig +short my.ip @outsideip.net)
the article states that the implants cannot be lost or stolen *BULL*
Security Officer:"What happened to you implant to the Nuclear Materials Area?
Employee: "I cut it out and gave it to the terrorists in exchange for my wife and childrens lives".
Security Officer:"No Christmas bonus for you".
NEWS ITEM: Today it was discovered that 14 billion euros in uncut diamonds was stolen from the Brussels diamond exchange.
NEWS ITEM: Three bodies of the missing diamond exchange employees were found with their right arms severed, apparently while they were still alive and without anesthesia.
Getting educated. Getting upset. Getting out the vote.
Getting others educated. Getting others upset. Getting others out to the vote.
The trick of the whole thing is that we have to get enough people on the boat nationwide to make a change. The big problem is that the majority doesn't want to do anything, and a sizeable plurality actually encourages the loss of rights (for others of course, never realizing that it's a loss of rights for them too) for safety. Unless we can convince them that the rights of others matter and that it's not making them safer anyway, we have lost.
This country has taught itself helplessness. We hear about "the lesser of two evils" and don't pay enough attention to the fact that we enable the supposed no-win vote. We don't write our candidates. We don't rally for our causes, and when we do, we do it in a hapzard and unprofessional manner in contrast to the great movements of the past. We don't contribute to campaigns, volunteer to help candidates get elected, and make clear that our support is contingent on them supporting us in exchange. We sit on our butts and do nothing to effect a change.
In 2000, I heard a lot of people say that there was no difference between the Republicans and Democrats. 6 years later, I wonder how many people think Al Gore would've led this nation the same way. Why couldn't people see the difference? The answer's a lack of education about the candidates and lack of interest in getting educated.
All we can do is get ourselves and our friends informed and active. As long as enough of us work on changing things locally, we will eventually change things globally.
However, I sincerely despair that we'll ever recover our sense of outrage at what we've lost in terms of rights until someone truly exploits and abuses power on a large enough scale to make the people more scared of government than of foreigners.
If it's for-profit but free, you're not the customer -- you're the product (e.g., the Slashdot Beta's "audience").
its a question of the level of likelyhood things will take place
if the system is biometric or body implanted... ANY attempt to circumvent the system will be much more personaly threataning
with a keycard the odds are much lower that your going to have yourself maimed for the password or whatever... since the majority of keycard systems are going to be proximity card for doors, i know, my university uses them, theyre fantastic as they are... easy to use, work from inside my wallet and can usualy be activated by brushing my coat pocket past the sensor, so i dont have to even remove the wallet. Its unobtrusive. Unlike having to constantly place my hand out to some sensor.
XML - A clever joke would be here if
Yep you heard me..
Because we're soon be like the Animals from Orwell's animal farm.
I think goes along the lines of "You don't want Mr. Bin Laden to harm us again, do you?"
And of course "Bush is always right."
But don't worry because in the end we'll go to Sugar Candy Mountain (Or your particular vision of heaven)
There's been a smoking ban in Ireland for the last couple of years. Seems to work pretty well. Bars are still open, people still drink, tourists still come. Country hasn't collapsed. Don't get many countries with more of an ingrained drinking culture than Ireland and it seems to be working ok (I did a couple of gigs in Dublin last summer and the bars seemed pretty full to me).
As another posted has commented, if I go into a bar, I can choose whether or not to drink the same poison as you. I can share the space and enjoy the ambience/ music / company but make the decision on what to put into my body. If it's a smoking bar I have no choice whether or not to breathe in somebody elses poisonous fumes.
What government, regardless of natural human rights, is going to allow itself to be overthrown?
A passage regarding this issue has been added to the german Grundgesetz in 1968:
Gegen jeden, der es unternimmt, diese Ordnung zu beseitigen, haben alle Deutschen das Recht zum Widerstand, wenn andere Abhilfe nicht möglich ist.
So everyone citizen has the right to oppose anyone trying to get rid of the democratic system, although this is more of theoretical nature. If the resistance does not succeed in its goals, the people involved won't have any chance quoting that line.
Life is just nature's way of keeping meat fresh.
My hat's off to you. You've summed the corpus of my thoughts and fears. This is the sort of commentary for which I wish I possessed the eloquence.
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But, despite the violent times our country was born in, they didn't have liabilities like extremely efficient transportation and communication systems or weapons of mass destruction. I don't know how the right to bear arms would have been drafted if the writers of the constitution wrote for today's world, nor how the search & siesure clause would be different. I do know that we often times have defacto freedoms greater than what the founders envisioned because advances in technology and infrastructure have given me the freedom to call my parent who live 200 miles away or go visit them and return home within a single day. Granted, this new freedom isn't quite the same as freedom of speach, but it is no less a freedom available to me.
Trying to shoehorn laws written more than 200 years ago to apply to everything is sortof like trying to make DOS 2.0 the underpinings of the Internet.
science is a religion
I don't believe 9-11 conspiracies. They require a level of competence and foresight that this government has consistently shown that they do not possess. Let Hanlon's Razor be your guide: "Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity."
On the other hand, I haven't seen this video, and the idea that the administration could care more about the financial and public morale interests in getting NY reopened ASAP than about the environmental and health implications of all that dust seems extremely likely to me. Then again, I'm not sure what the implications would've been of doing otherwise, and I'm very certain that many politicians would've considered the morale question more important on September 13th, 2001 than an unknown potential health problem.
If it's for-profit but free, you're not the customer -- you're the product (e.g., the Slashdot Beta's "audience").
A citizen of Saudi Arabia, Mazin Salih Musaid al-Awfi, was one of at least half a dozen men whose crime was the possession of a Casio model F-91W watch. These watches have allegedly been used in terrorist bombings. "I am a bit surprised at this piece of evidence," Mazin said. "If that is a crime, why doesn't the United States arrest and sentence all the shops and people who own them?"
;)
That's the right question. The journalist apparently makes no effort to corroborate his story, other than an oblique reference to a FOIA request. "Man, I don't know why I was arrested, I ain't done nuthin'" is hardly basis for good reporting. There's something more to the story. Occam's Razor says if they're not rounding up everybody with Casio watches, these guys were detained for more than that.
How 'bout just don't vote Republican?
Yeah, for a change it seems the Libertarians have their heads screwed on tighter than the rest of the lot. If the Detainee Treatment Act this article mentions has you concerned you can't vote for any of the Senators in office (97-0 yea vote) or most of the House (398-19) summary but if treatment of detainees is a voting issue for you, the best candidate would be John McCain who offered the ammendment to this bill to reign in inappropriate treatment of detainees. Party politics are a fool's game - parties obstruct, individuals progress.
My God, it's Full of Source!
OUTSIDE_IP=$(dig +short my.ip @outsideip.net)
If you look closely, they're the ones pushing to start Armaggaedon. Why do you think Bush and company are trying to start wars in the Middle East?
Where are you getting your news from? Clinton attacked Iraq more than once. The "wars" aren't about pushing to start a battle in a valley named Armageddon over control of Palestine at all. One was against terror cells that attacked us on 9/11 and the other was taking out a mass murderer who openly used WMDs against his own people. If it were on my soil and my family was being shot for not agreeing with a dictator I didn't have a chance to vote against, I would want someone to do something about it too.
Two roads diverged in a wood, and I - I took the one the bus load of girls just went down.