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OS Comparisons From the BBC
igb writes "As part of their coverage of the launch of Vista, the BBC last week asked people to submit descriptions of the benefits and drawbacks of their chosen system, and today they've posted responses from two Vista users, a Linux user, and an OS X user. There's nothing earth-shattering here, but it's interesting to see the operating systems compared on a level playing field, and good that the BBC has given equal time to the major alternatives."
I'm sorry but this is not a level playing field. What this is is acknowledging the competition so as to appear fair and silence advocates, but then show off the latest features of Vista's interface, but not show the same in Linux and OSX. They have been playing this game for long enough that they know that eye candy sells. For goodness sake a Linux user that I work with said he was going to buy Vista just because he thought the box looks cool.
The Mac user writes: "I find it hard to find things to criticise, except perhaps to say that new versions of iWork and iLife are produced each year and it is hard to resist buying each new version, modestly priced as they are." Does anybody else smell a shill?
"The most unique new feature is called Readyboost. When you're having performance issues due to insufficient memory, you can use a USB flash drive as an additional cache of memory to boost performance."
Wh... WHAT?!
Sounds like a good way to wear out a flash drive..
FTA: "The most unique new feature is called Readyboost. When you're having performance issues due to insufficient memory, you can use a USB flash drive as an additional cache of memory to boost performance."
Unique? That's Virtual Memory. Sure, the fact that it's easy (may be) a good thing (though how many people are going to keep an empty flash drive around for this? Easier to get the kid down the street to install more ram for you and be done with it if you cant do it yourself. However, unique? I can put a swap file on flash drive and itd do the same thing...
"goodbye and hello, as always" ~Prince Corwin, from Zelazny's Amber series
Nice report, though the Linux guy should have pointed out the DRM on Vista. They did a good job with the security portion too.
cymonroot AT gmail DOT com
The linux advocate pointed out the free software license, contrasting it with "piracy". Hopefully this is the start of free software making a real impact in the mainstream media.
Care about privacy? Read this!
and good that the BBC has given equal time to the major alternatives."
What, and no mention of OS/2? Feh... what a bloody useless study...
// TODO: Insert Cool Sig
This is just filler for BBC's tech page. There is no real detail given on any of the operating systems other than, "it's cool, I like it". Before anyone says they should've said this and should've said that, this is aimed at people who know squat about computers, less about OS's and will likely read this article on page 5 of their newspaper. It was probably tossed on the desk of some rookie rerporter at five minutes to quitting time.
Windows: Eye candy, eye candy, and you're gonna have to upgrade.
Linux: Secure stable, and I swear it's got software you can run! I mean, people give it away for free.
Mac OS: I use my machine for things and I really like it. And it's pretty
I'm in the hole of the broadband donut.
"It is clean, uncluttered and lets me get on with my tasks. When I see Windows' reminders, popups, and other interruptions, I appreciate its absence in OS X." Isn't it funny that the only person to sledge their non-choice of OS was a Mac user?
"requires more resources", "is less widespread than the competition", "it is hard to resist buying each new version" are these the real drawbacks? And where's the comparisons the headline talks about? It looks like they picked 4 fanboys comments and posted them. And why are there 2 comments about Vista, and just one of each other oses? Because windows has a bigger market share?
Also, unlike Vista and OS X, Linux provides comprehensive support for languages such as Gaelic and Welsh.
I believe this to be false, and I am assuming it is coming from someone who has never used OS X. I just looked in System Preferences, and they are indeed there under International (you need to look under its native name, e.g. "Cymraeg" for Welsh -- it's hidden under the "Edit" button). OS X was built with Unicode in mind. OS X even comes with built-in support for the Inuktitut (Eskimo) language for chrissakes!! (Try visiting http://www.gov.nu.ca/inuktitut/ in Safari --- that is rendered in the default font!!)
I use both Linux and OS X heavily, but stuff like this doesn't lend the Linux camp any credibilty IMHO.
Though the attention did move, for the most part, toward vista... it was a good quality discussion. Vista is new... so its no wonder that they got the majority of the focus, but they didnt cut anyone's legs out. On the whole this may not have been the PERFECT debate that all the fanboys were looking for... but for the launch of a new MS OS it was unexpectedly fair. I was quite pleased with the focus given to each side of the argument.
... but i thought that the introduction of the linux and mac user would have to have their critique of Vista (ie. offer their perspective on the competition). This article is really nothing more than four fan-boys of a particular IT community dissection flaunting their collectively underwhelming e-peen in our faces.
I suppose it would be fair to say that there was a level playing field in terms of effectiveness in promoting their respective platforms... if I showed these "articles" to my parents, or some random person at the mall / office, I'd be surprised if any would be the least inclined to try any of the platforms.
This is the first I've heard of this feature. What are they smoking at MS that they though allowing users to dump virtual memory to a USB thumb drive would be a good idea? It's not going to be any faster than storing virtual memory on a SATA connected HDD and it is going to eat the flash memory. Don't people know those things wear out? They're going to learn the hard way. It's not like most people don't already have enough disk space that a feature like this would even be needed. When was the last time you saw a computer that was slow because it didn't have enough virtual memory?
I think you're probably right; there's nothing new or particularly interesting here. Both Windows guys have only ever used Windows, and they compare it with previous versions of Windows with no reference to the outside world. The Linux guy compares Linux with Windows (with a brief side reference to Macs), and the Mac guy compares OS X with Windows. Even the past experience of these people seems completely stereotypical, but if you spend all your time working in your favourite OS, it shouldn't be a big surprise that comparative knowledge of other OS's is limited.
It would have been a lot more useful to have genuine reviewers write something from a perspective of having used all three systems a lot, without bias, and fully understanding the strengths and weaknesses of each... but I presume there are already a few of them around.
So two Vista users, a Linux user, and a Mac user walk into a bar...
"The most unique new feature is called Readyboost. When you're having performance issues due to insufficient memory, you can use a USB flash drive as an additional cache of memory to boost performance."
Wh... WHAT?!
What, you don't like KillerNIC's new product? I hear it also helps get an additional 30FPS in Half Life 2.
Push Button, Receive Bacon
I was surprised that none of the Vista users had complaints (well, maybe it is no surprise due to the fact they weren't entirely critical). I subscribe to Maximum PC magazine, and they shred the crap out of Vista-- sure, they love the eye-candy and other handy things that Vista has to offer over Windows XP, but the editors of Maximum PC wrote another article detailing about 10 things they hate about Vista, including ridiculous DRM software, redundant program install prompts, AND the fact that it will have compatibility issues with a lot of software on the market today (well, the latter is to be expected as newly released OS's run into this). In the end, they recommend putting off the whole upgrade for at least a year (when PC games will catch up to DirectX10, and when hardware will be more compatible with the new OS).
Oh, and they absolutely hate the high-dollar price tag, and the scaled software packages (Home Basic, Home Premium, Business, Ultimate).
I'll stick with my XP for now and upgrade when I need to, for gaming's sake.
I've heard lots of hooplah about beryl being unstable... and it drove me away for a long time. Stability is a major issue for me... but in my time spent with it... its perfectly acceptable.
Another significant advantage with Linux is that, unlike in Windows, there is no need to worry about security since viruses are very rare, no virus has yet spread successfully on the platform.
And that statement makes me cry.
1. Security is not limited to viruses, and saying there is no need for security just... ya makes me cry.
2. Depending on your exact defination of virus... say if you include worms, saying that no virus has never spread on Linux is simply not true.
I see purpose for all 3 OSs - well maybe not Vista directly, but Windows in general yes. But I really think they should have chosen people that clearly have alot of experience in all 3 OSs - which these people clearly do not.
Can anyone tell me what the Linux guy has running on his desktop? Specifically, I'm curious about the semi-transparent apps running on the right hand side of the thumbnail in the article.
Thanks.
My motherboard just died on me in such a way that I ended up killing my WindowsXP installation trying to recover from what I thought was a driver problem. The Dual Opteron246 Tyan I was running it on has been unstable ever since I moved house and I'm sick of it. My wife's laptop got a broken screen at just about the same time and I immediately bought a replacement, which I have yet to set up. I'm thinking, Do I really need Windows anymore? Both Linux and OSX can run many Windows programs on the desktop, but I'm still not sold on Linux as a home desktop OS. Macs are fast, cool, and if you stick with 3rd party upgrades for memory and drive space, they're not too badly priced at the high end. I'm thinking I should take back the laptop I bought for my wife and get her a MacBook. All she does is internet, mail, print postcards and manage family photos and her blogs. Then I can replace my Big Rig with a Mac Pro on which I can do all my stuff: Number crunching with Mathematica, Photography, Family videos, music production (cubase) ... All that stuff will work.
What do I lose?
Lots of free VST instruments which are Windows only. -- sad but I'll find replacements.
True Excel functionality -- I use a lot of add-ons such as Bloomberg price feeds that I'm not sure would work. Do I really need em? I'm not sure.
Warez. -- I'm no warez junkie, I buy most of the commercial programs I use, but it's very convenient to be able to find copies of software to try out or use for a one-off I would otherwise never pay for.
Can I manage my home network as well? I have a large video and music collection on a Terastation, I hear Mac users sometimes have problems playing .AVI files, and right now there is *no* way to play AVCHD files as produced by my Sony HD cam. OK I'm sure this will be addressed fairly quickly.
Can any /.ers put my mind at rest on any of these issues, or perhaps point me in the direction of some resources to ease the transition? Otherwise are there any /.ers who did "switch" and wish they hadn't?
j'ai découvert une démonstration vraiment admirable (de ce théorème général) que cette si
The first thing I noticed after switching from Windows to Mac OS X almost six years ago is its complete lack of distractions. It is clean, uncluttered and lets me get on with my tasks.
If you look at the adjacent screenshot, you'll see a completely cluttered desktop filled with distractions. I find it amusing that out of all the images, this one has the most clutter.
I know there's at least three other people besides me who are shocked at the complete lack of AmigaOS 4.0 coverage from the BBC.
-- Religion is not an exact science
I read the links first and I thought this was leading in to a joke.
... walk in to a bar.
"two Vista users, a Linux user, and an OS X user"
...but didn't the BBC have it's own Operating System at one time?
Something like this? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BBC_Micro
Too bad they never continued that project...
Thanks,
Mike
FTFA:
Another significant advantage with Linux is that, unlike in Windows, there is no need to worry about security since viruses are very rare, no virus has yet spread successfully on the platform.
1. I do not like windows.
2. I used to develop on freeBSD and linux (now Windows because I am a game production developer, it comes with the job.)
3. This argument about viruses has absolutely no basis since if an OS is not widely used, it simply isn't an attractive commercial target for virus/adware writers. I wish Linux/OSX cheerleaders would not use this point in listing the merits of a system beause nobody can convince me that if everyone used Linux or everyone used OSX to the degree that Windows dominates the market (and especially the novice computer user market with respect to Linux) this argument would neccessarily hold up. (It might hold up, I'm just sayin that right now theres no way to know.)
"Old man yells at systemd"
> good that the BBC has given equal time to the major alternatives
I use Amiga 4.0 you insensitive clod!
You would prefer a dialogue which began with the Vista user demonstrating his new Blu-Ray drive by playing Harry Potter and the Goblet of Fire?
In high definition with full theater sound and large screen projection?
Because access to protected content is all that DRM means to the casual user of Vista or the Mac.
"The first thing I noticed after switching from Windows to Mac OS X almost six years ago is its complete lack of distractions."
Vista wasn't out six years ago. He's probably talking about a popup infested 98 or ME system.
Sometimes my arms bend back.
...and demand that PC manufacturers be forced to sell their computers without Windows installed. We are currently paying ~$80USD for every computer we buy. If the Linux Counter is correct, that is about 2.3 BILLION dollars Linux users have BEEN FORCED to give to Microsoft. Vista represents some very serious problems related to privacy and digital rights management - and you will be forced to pay for it.
Write to your government. This is not just about Microsoft - it's about consumer rights.
Sorry! Formatting stripped out. Should read as follows:
Advantages for the Mac:
There is a robust shareware/freeware market, and much of Windows' small apps are capabilities built directly into what a shipping Mac can handle. It also runs X11, so with Fink or your package manager of choice, you have access to thousands of X applications. Managing your home network is a breeze (you configure your router via a webpage anyway, right?), and unless you're trying to play AVI files from Windows Media 10+, you should be able to find plugins. I can watch most WMVs and all DivX files from my Macs, no problem. No idea about your Sony cam.
Linux:
There really is no replacement for Excel. There are good spreadsheet programs, but I've always wound up frustrated with alternatives to Excel--it seems to be one thing Microsoft got right. Your mileage may vary, of course. There's also no Linux support for lots of not-uncommon activities, and getting the fonts set up so that text looks acceptable is far more trouble than it should be. I have always been bothered by the way all Linux desktops look--it always just seems flat and rough around the edges. There are tens of thousands of applications available, which can be a good thing, but it also means you might have to try 3 or 4 different apps before finding one you actually like and which can do what you want it to do without being frustrating.
I know I'll probably get knocked for this, but while there is a wide selection of quality software for Linux, only a small portion of it has the refinement and efficacy of solid titles available for Windows or OS X. Even finding a good media player was a bit of a challenge (I liked Amarok, but it had some serious limitations). I'm saying this as someone who has administered Linux machines in the past and who had, until about two years ago, a Linux server.
I'm now Mac-only and have seen nothing compelling me to pick up Linux again, but I have no bad feelings toward it. Linux is something you can benefit from if you put effort and energy into it, but it's not really something you can just fall into comfortably.
I'd also like to add that while I like and use linux, I've done most of those things he talks about being "easy" and "just a few mouse clicks". In pretty well every distribution I've ever tried(ubuntu might be different), they aren't easy, nor just a few mouse clicks.
Here's the only comparison of operating systems that matters to the vast majority of people:
Software Selection:
Windows: The most and best selection
OS/X: Far less than Windows, but still serviceable
Linux: The least selection and most crude.
People use applications, not operating systems.
Sometimes it's best to just let stupid people be stupid.
> And why are there 2 comments about Vista, and just one of each other oses? Because windows has a bigger market share?
No. It's because you have to say twice as much to make Vista sound good.
I'll probably be modded down for this...
my hardware doesn't support vista.. no thanks.
I suppose email attatchments might be a way.. who knows, things can be done, just not so damn easily.
Now if the new Debian world that we created decided that they wanted to get their stuff outside of the repository system... then they are on their own. They may as well stay with Windows.
waiting for ad.doubleclick.net
Slightly off topic, but I found Microsoft's current advertisement on http://news.com.au/ (a major Aussie news site, go figure) quite interesting. They've integrated what looks like the Vista desktop into the actual template of the site. Quite novel, it must have taken quite a bit of work to make that happen.
ISO certified == THX certified
On average, a RANDOM 4K read from flash is about 10x faster than from HDD. Now, how does that translate to end-user perf? Under memory pressure and heavy disk activity, the system is much more responsive; on a 4GB machine with few applications running, the ReadyBoost effect is much less noticeable.
Translation: You want 4GB of RAM to run Vista.
Q Isn't user data on a removable device a security risk? A: This was one of our first concerns and to mitigate this risk, we use AES-128 to encrypt everything that we write to the device.
Unsaid: it was much easier to leave the contents encrypted than it was to create an additional "security risk." This probably has something to do with them encrypting all of your data for the "trusted path."
Ever hear of the hybrid hard drive?
Yes, but I would not buy one programed by Microsoft. We shall see if their 10 year life estimate holds water any more than their previous claims to safe data storage and secure computing.
Don't you just hate how they are paying people to fill Wikipedia with this kind of spam? No bother, the truth will out.
Friends don't help friends install M$ junk.
I felt that the criticism for Vista and OSX was kinda weak. May be it's not even about a shill, but rather about not knowing any better. The main issue with the non-free systems is that you cannot tinker with them, but most users do not even realize what they are missing.
Yet another person lost in the stereotyped view of OS X users as clueless Noobs, who know not what an OS is.
Sorry, but the number of people who use OS X and are equally at home configuring any other UNIX system are legion. We are just people who got tired of having to configure things, and wanted to tinker with applications or other development instead of the OS that run them or even the window manager we interact with daily. I know a fair amount of about the kernel, about launchd, even about the filesystem and lots of other internal aspects of OS X I can use to configure the system just as well as any Linux system - but I am also happy with good defaults out of the gate that mean my tinkering is for fun, and not a matter of Getting the Damn System Functional.
I really don't understand how people so seemingly apt in their ability to configure all aspects of Linux systems can rain such heavy critisims down on OSX users, where really the only constraint I face in tinkering with the system is the equivilent of a somewhat locked down window manager in Linux. After having used TWM, CTWM, GWM, KDE, and Gnome (among others) I don't mind a window manager that is pleasing an performs well without much tweaking.
"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
BBC has given equal time to the major alternatives.
:(
FreeBSD IS Dead
Lord knows I cant make full use of my Macs without at least one drop out or crash a week...
Check your memory. I had some memory go bad on a G5 tower, and had simialr issues - after I resolved that, my system has not had a crash in months - just as it should be for most modern operating systems.
I have a PPC OS X laptop that has never crashed, in many years of service. I do not find what he said so hard to believe, even with heavy use (I was using it for application and web development).
Now application crashes, that I have seen on any Mac from time to time. But not the screen that makes you restart.
"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
It's an amazing OS. I really think that this one's going to give Apple Macs a run for their money.
It's funny they would even be worried. Their real fear is the free software that works like a charm on 1/10th the hardware Vista wants. Still, I like the transitive property of the statement for allowing the following to also be true:
Apple is going to give them a run for their money.
Friends don't help friends install M$ junk.
I disagree.
At face value, you are right. You buy a computer, it comes with Windows pre-installed, IE, Outlook, maybe even Office. You and I know that you paid for the software in the purchase price, you just didn't see that cost since you were going to pay it even if you wanted Linux or x86 Solaris or FreeBSD or... So, it looks like Linux can't compete on cost with Windows.
Then you get infected with a worm or trojan because the anti-virus software installed on your computer didn't come with free updates for then next N months. Now you have to buy a subscription to McAfee, or Norton, or Kaspersky (or if you're really smart Nod32, but I digress), and that is a re-occurring cost every year. Because you've done some homework, you also buy firewall software from McAfee or Symantec or (shudder) Black Ice. Yes, XP comes with a firewall, but you want the reporting features and ability to block by program that a commercial product offers. Oh, but you're getting a lot of crap in your e-mail, so you also buy mail filtering software. Then your thirteen year old, who knows way more about computers than you ever will (okay, this is
Now how much cheaper is that Windows computer than Linux? There are free (as in speech and as in beer) alternatives for each of these problems available for Linux.
So, yeah, the initial purchase price may be equivalent, but after that, you are just throwing good money after bad. But that's just my opinion. YMMV
MCSE? No, sir...I don't do Windows. Yes, I am an idealist. What's your point?
If you look at the adjacent screenshot, you'll see a completely cluttered desktop filled with distractions. I find it amusing that out of all the images, this one has the most clutter.
The "clutter" you see is her work and play. She could have hidden those tasks, but it was nice to see how a couple of programs looked. Chances are, there were many more programs you did not see. That's what happens to your desktop when you don't have to boot it daily.
The Linux desktop probably has more running as well. For instance, the 1.2 GHz PIII laptop being used to write this post has some 30 programs running over five virtual desktops, each with nine virtual screens. I've only had it running for the last 12 days, but place keeping rocks. Under Enlightenment, switching between desktops is nearly instantaneous despite the relatively modest processor and 512 of RAM. If I wanted to take a screenshot, I'd cover up most of the clutter by moving to an open virtual screen.
The clutter free nature of both Mac OSX and most free window managers puts Vista to shame. The M$ entrance into virtual desktops is both late and clumsy - even KDE does it's pagers better. The "3D" flip feature is some kind of bad joke.
Friends don't help friends install M$ junk.
FTA: This new technology relies on the DirectX (a graphics technology provided on most modern graphics cards and also a requirement for the new Aero user interface) graphics engine to draw the interface leading providing new features such as 3D and animation.
This statement seems to contradict itself. So what is DirectX- a software engine or hardware technology?
Visit http://ringbreak.dnd.utwente.nl/~mrjb/growingbettersoftware to download your free copy of the book
From http://www.ibiblio.org/pub/linux/docs/HOWTO/Advoca cy
The actual ARCHITECTURE of Windows is more virus and exploit friendly. So it is likely (not certain) that Linux would be mostly void of viruses: the payoff vs work wouldn't be worth it, not that it isn't possible.
I agree. Now lets just agree to respect each others opinions, no matter how wrong yours may be.
"Yeah, this seems bogus. Windows XP looks like it supports about 50 languages, while Vista seems to double that. Besides, I would hardly call Linux's support for Welsh "comprehensive". It's not like they translated all the man pages, HOWTOs, and included programs into Welsh."
You too are missing the point. In order to use a localised version of Windows XP, you have to purchase a new copy of it, or you can purchase the Multilingual User Interface Pack to support languages which Windows XP is not directly available in, provided you're using XP professional and not home edition.
In KDE/Gnome, you can switch languages pretty much on the fly. It is true that not all documentation is available in all languages, but you can use the UI in your own language, not just use your own language in the UI. I know that OS X has the same kind of support for some languages, but can you actually use OS X in Irish or Welsh?
Lemon curry???
hmmm... I have not used OSX (hence it was posed as a question), but I have the other two, and hands down linux installs can have thousand of useable (may not be the best, but they can do stuff!) apps from first login. I gather OSX has several excellent programs installed with it. Windows has few if any apps that could be considered useful.
Semi-automatic amateur armchair Australian philosopher; conjecture ready at any moment...
Anyone else notice that there was a mac title bar holding the vista screen shot on the screen behind the presenters when they were touting the new Vista this morning :D
Only to idiots, are orders laws.
-- Henning von Tresckow
But I stil prefere Amiga Workbench 3.0 running on an A4000, if it was good enough to run a 3 mile space station (Babylon 5) it good enough for me!
In the not too distant future, next Sunday A.D.
When the BBC put up a page asking for comments to be included in this item they said this:-
"We will select three of you to go head-to-head-to-head on the subject of your favourite operating system and will be contacting you with further instructions - so don't forget to include your e-mail address in the form below."
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/technology/6288119.stm
It seems likely that did not get the "Wow" across very well, so they have included twice as many comments about Vista as the other OSes.
Also do they consider this "news"? http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/technology/6160327.stm
It is good to see that my licence fee is being spent to help make the richest man on the planet even richer. Not.
If all Windows users have to boot their PC daily, can you please explain my Windows box being up for well over a month so far without needing a reboot? While continuously running BOINC, microtorrent, Steam, Hamachi, and about 5-6 other programs in the background?
And of course, Windows has absolutely no way of hiding all those tasks, or the taskbar, or anything else. Of course, there are also no programs or add-ons straight from MS or anyone else that give you more than one virtual desktop for WinXP, and have been since 2002. I could go on but you get the picture - you, as usual, have no idea what you're talking about. Desktops are only as cluttered as the people who use them.
"It does not do to leave a live dragon out of your calculations, if you live near him." - Tolkien
I'd say parent is clearly a troll or a flamebait (not exactly sure where the line is drawn between troll and flamebait).
"....this one has the most clutter."
That, of course, was the point the Microsoft sales team wanted to convey when they selected that screenshot. The Linux screen was selected for being bland and unimpressive. Duh!
25-30 lines of text can do no justice to tens of man years put in these projects. The depth of analysis was to the level of 'oh my god, see all the glitz, the 3d stuff, the transparencies!!!' comment.
Lame topic, please move on, there is nothing to see here.
By the way, what's up with the transparencies? is it sooo important to have a nice few colors on the screen?
Lets hope CNR can achieve its objectives then perhaps people trying Linux for the first time in future will have a positive experience, keep using it long enough to understand the benefit in terms of FOSS and realise what they've been missing, then recommend it to others.
Is there an easy to install, easy to use OS X clone that is actually Linux? I love the interface with the remote control that I saw on my friend's mac yesterday.
Thanks in advance?
I hold very few opinions. I hold information based on observation and fact. If you wish to disagree, please use facts.
Its all very subjective. I got a Intel MacBook when they came out and I don't find it anywhere near as stable as XP. Hardly ever had a BSOD while iTunes can't import a dozen CDs without the CD drive freezing. Thats just my experience though.
I have excellent Karma and I am not afraid to Troll it.
I was surprised by the trailing remarks from the Windows supporters:
"I really think that this one's going to give Apple Macs a run for their money." i.e. Mac have been clearly in the lead and Vista is just catching up.
"I see windows Vista as a big improvement over Windows XP and would strongly suggest other PC users who have not explored beyond the Windows camp to upgrade." i.e. if you've already tried Mac or Linux there's no reason to look at Vista.
Doesn't seem completely balanced reporting to me to have that level of ambivalence from the Windows supporters.
Andrew Yeomans
Seems like that's usually the way it works, after all.
Village idiot in some extremely smart villages.
He didn't say MS shouldn't steal others ideas (everyone does it), he's saying that the guy is making a flawed statement, highlighting his lack of experience with anything non-windows. If he knew anything about the _ancient_ *nix security model, he wouldn't act like this is some amazing ms invention.
Also saying that if you wouldn't use anyone else's ideas, you'd use linux is incredibly funny, as linux is, at it's most basic level, a reverse-engineered unix.
I'm going over here and I don't know why!
That is what is going to riack the party of both MS and Apple.
And those are the aspects FOSS adovactes should be promoting when engaging to the uneducated masses.
IANAL but write like a drunk one.
I had to update bios and download drivers for my SATA hard-drive just to install Vista Business. Sound card was crippled too. Intel chipsets.
How the hell did this get modded up to +5????
Repeat after me EXPLORER IS NOT A WINDOW MANAGER
I heard microsoft is marketing the cool box as additional value.
How is this a level discussion when there are 2 Vista advocates compared to 1 of each other OS? I feel rather insulted here... it's like "Vista's the new thing so here are 2 people to sing it's praises. Now for 2 of you other people to tell us about the alternatives."
Also I'd like to point out that the Linux and Mac guys are (as Linux and Mac guys usually are) switchers from Windows, while both of the Windows guys seem as though they've never used anything but Windows in their life. If they were going to get 2 Windows guys, they could at least get one of them to be someone who's used another system but still prefers Windows (though... those sorts of people are extremely difficult to find - and I'm not kidding).
Having said that, I'd like to congratulate Paul Broadbent (the Linux dude). He's written a good summary, touching on all the aspects of why Linux is superior, without ever resorting to sledging. I like the way he's covered the technical advantages, cost, community support, and wrapped up with a non-preachy bit about the importance of freedom and open source. I hope a lot of people read this (without getting to swept up in the usual "Vista is prettier than XP" argument which precedes it).
Do you realise that none of the text that you quoted to support your claim was from the Wikipedia entry? It was all from the referenced MSDN blog. Surely you can't blame Microsoft from paying their "Program Manager for the Windows SDK Tools and Build Environment" to write an blog entry on their own Microsoft Developer Network website?
anyone else notice that the Linux guy was using SuperKaramba on Gnome?
The single biggest UI problem with Windows is the frequency with which it needlessly clamors for your attention, and the degree to which it encourages applications to do the same. One of the things you notice going from Windows to KDE, Gnome or MacOS is how restful the user interfaces are. When you work with Windows you get used to wrestling with applications over control of keyboard focus, dismissing or ignoring a stream of pointless or unifornative dialogs or alert balloons. It soon fades out of your consciousness, becoming a kind of background buzz that you don't really notice until you use an OS where it isn't there.
This is symptomatic of nobody really caring about usability. Programmers litter their work with stuff that is really not much more than debugging verbiage, and marketers don't understand that drawing attention to yourself can be a bad thing.
It's not that making an OS window theme attractive is a bad thing by any means. It's a good thing. But it's secondary to answering this question correctly, over and over again: who is in charge? The user or the application vendor?
I'd say that ultimately, getting out of the user's way is more imporant than even consistency. Consistency is where Unix programs have been historically the weakest, MacOS the strongest, and Windows somewhere in between. However adaptation to an application's idiosyncracies is benign in comparison to having to fight the application for who controls the computer. Human are adaptable, but a constant stream of distraction is wearying.
Post may contain irony: discontinue use if experiencing mood swings, nausea or elevated blood pressure.
It uses Xgl/Compiz AFAIK, but these demos (and there's a live CD) are very nice especially the "Depth Perception" side-by-side windows one.
AIGLX seems like a better solution than Xgl (being better supported on video cards with Free drivers is one major advantage), but these demos are nice.
The best way is to find a way to have a computer have all three, Linux, Mac OS, and Windows. It would solve all our problems. It would never happen though, it sounds too logical.
I've been trying to find an answer to that for some time now. I remember when Flash ROM first came out in around 1990 or so, the number of erase cycles numbered in the thousands at most. It's first use them was for bios and things like that, which made sense.
But now that we have these little flash drives, and they're being promoted for day to day storage, and unlike say a floppy drive which also has a limited life span, they hold a lot of data. How long will they last?
Anyway, ReadyBoost isn't extended memory, if I understand it it's caching stuff from the harddrive and it's probably largely read operations.
I require people to pay money for the right to use the results of my work, be it the binary or source version, and because most people won't pay unless forced to, I have no other choice but to lock it up. Until a sustainable business model arrives (and survives) that enables a programmer to make a living AND give away their code for free, then I'm sticking with Plan A, which has a steady paycheck and lets me support my family.
I guess that makes me a "bad person."
Error:
... and I guess I still qualify as a noob. I really should have known better than to try it. But I'm curious by nature. I'm just glad I didn't have any work open at the time. So, enjoy the chuckles. Out of curiosity, what exactly DID happen? The best I can figure out is I was logged out immediately and sent to a terminal console. I did it again and it let me log back in with the graphical interface but I'm not exactly sure what this "feature" is supposed to be for. Can anyone clear that up for me?
2 Vista Users, a Linux user, and an OSX user walk into a bar...
For goodness sake a Linux user that I work with said he was going to buy Vista just because he thought the box looks cool.
Yeah righ, linux users buy software...
(ducks)
Sometimes, life itself is sarcasm...
But killing DWM doesn't seem to have any visible effect on the UI at all. Windows are still drawn exactly the same way they were. Window decorations are still there. Maybe it's only used for the Aero stuff (which my laptop won't do at all).
"In the end, they recommend putting off the whole upgrade for at least a year"
I entirely agree with this - not so much because of the reasons you pointed out though as it is from a security standpoint. I don't intend on using either Vista or IE7 for at least a year due to all the unpatched vulnerabilities that will exist.
Remember how MS touted Vista's kernel was supposed to be untouchable, and even the (horrible though they are) antivirus companies such as Symantec and McAffee couldn't even tap in - and then I seem to remember a Slashdot article about some company or other that developed a way of tapping into the kernel without Vista ever even noticing.
Another Slashdot story from only a day or 2 ago brought to light somebody who had gotten through Vista's DRM system by breaking the driver.
Even if MS's claim of Vista actually being better than previous Windows versions was even half true (which we all know is a claim they've made with every version) these issues would still keep me from using Vista - even if the issues have been fixed, they were key selling points/components of MS's "supremo next-gen operating system so good it runs on fairy dust" - and so for me, for those components to have ever been so broken is unacceptable.
Bill Gates has been on The Daily Show, the talk shows, and anywhere else it seems. MSNBC stripped off its clothes a week ago to wallow in an orgy of MS group sex. Now there's a 'study' that says "Gee Whiz Vista is the greatest thing since Louis Pasteur, yo."
And of course the Cmdr Taconistas report it as news.
cracked me the fsck up:
"The most unique new feature is called Readyboost. When you're having performance issues due to insufficient memory, you can use a USB flash drive as an additional cache of memory to boost performance."
I picture a time when there's a big, gaping hole in the top of your computer, and when Windows cruft slows it to a crawl you have a bucketfull of microchips and you just throw 'em in the hole.
My turnips listen for the soft cry of your love
Pro's - Just tried this out; thanks. I can see it come in handy when a network connection is down and explorer can't map those network drives.
Con's - How do you learn these little jewels of knowlegde?
The benefit of freely-modifiable software does *not come from the (untrue) fact that everyone can/wants to recode their system.
It comes from the fact that everyone who wants to can, and there are millions of them. And you can avail yourself of the fruits of their work.
Next time someone's advocating software and you find yourself thinking "why would I want to try to figure out how to improve my computer", see if you can translate that to "why would I want thousands of coders improving my computer at no cost?"
My turnips listen for the soft cry of your love
My biggest complaint here is that the only critics of each OS were the same people who were pushing that OS. So, you really got absolutely no responses to the effect of "My Tiger can already do everything Vista does, and Leopard will be better." A few subtle comments -- "Viruses have never been successful on Linux," not "Viruses don't exist on ANY OS with a decent amount of security, and MS has never cared about security."
I guess I'm kind of disappointed that it wasn't a bit more of a flamewar^Wdebate...
Don't thank God, thank a doctor!
I'd find the whole thing more credible if they had gotten someone very inexperienced with computers to test each OS for a week or two. Any experienced user will tout their preferred OS over the others. Someone without much experience in any of them would be better able to discuss the pros and cons of the three.
I didn't think the house band in Hell would play this badly.
I am a mac user as my sig makes clear. One of my peeves with the other operating systems is their prioritizing my needs above all else. I am firm believer that software should be develop for the user. With Linux, the lack of economic incentive coupled with a foreign philosophy to software use makes anything developed for that platform slow to adapt to the users needs. Though, Microsoft has economic incentive from the end user, they also receive revenue from the content providers, advertisers, and their developers. Like our politicians, they are beholden to many masters and our needs lose priority. Crippleware mechanisms like DRM is an example of this. In addition, have you ever wondered why Microsoft wants us to use exclusively IE, WMP, MSN search, and Messenger even those all are free of cost? Apple, in contrast, is very consumer oriented company. Since Mac OSX does not possess the monopoly of Windows, the best chance at growth is to attract new users. Thus, Apple will do more the appease the end user than Microsoft (perhaps only pertaining to Mac OSX and not iTunes/iPod).
You don't have to be smart to use a Mac, you just have to be smart enough to buy one
I've used Windows since 3.1 and even though it has caused me more than one instance of frustration I stayed faithful, Vista was the straw. I don't have a cutting edge machine, but with a 3.2 proc, 1GB RAM and a Gforce 6200+ card, I could barely sustain Vista. In fact, my overall "rating" was a 2.1. Linux here I come. This article really does not give a true representation of Vista; sure it lists some of the whirlygigs and whizbangs you get with it, but fails to tell you about driver failures and performance issues. It's safe and secure, as long as you have the dual proc, 3GB RAM machine to run it. I don't even want to know how server 2007 is going to run...
I have noticed that Linux (at least Ubuntu and Fedora Core) has a very strange learning curve. When it is freshly installed, it is ready to be used, and is extremely simple. Anyone who has used any graphical operating system could figure out how to work a fresh install of Ubuntu or Fedora Core.
But then you want to do something that doesn't come with the OS. Say you want Java for your web browser. You go online and find a tutorial, but then you need to learn how to work the terminal. You learn basic commands, and then move through the tutorial, which often does not work. You are expected to learn everything from reading man pages and waiting in help forums for a response.
Right at the get-go, Linux is easy, but you want to do anything interesting, and it becomes way to technical for the average user.
Whoever modded this up so that is shows on my default view needs to have their moderation privileges removed permanently.
I was quoting from the wrong version of the Final Judgement. I believe the correct version is here http://www.usdoj.gov/atr/cases/f218300/218339.htm.
What sort of warped space is that!
Most cubes in euclidean space have six sides (think die).
PS: "die" is the plural of "dice" - I'd have written "dices" to be clear but I'm a pedant and didn't want to suffer the wrath of slashdot.
PPS: Yes, I knew what you meant.
>>> "Did you not read the post you're replying to? There is no Irish or Welsh version of OS X because _OS X directly supports_ approximately 100 languages or variants of languages out of the box"
... I didn't check for Gaelic, I assume it's the same. By support we're talking the display of [nearly] all OS texts in the native human language.
Did you research the grandparent post? The Apple website doesn't mention that OSX supports welsh (although it does support many languages)
Seems strange that OSX would support a language and not say anywhere on their website! Give us a link!?!
Agreed - Beryl is really very nice. By showing a few chaps in work, I`ve had 5 converts away from Windows just because it looks nice. They`re all developers, so just need that little push away from an PuTTy session to a full blown Linux environment.
In terms of stability, it has improved immensely over the last few months and even runs well on old ropey hardware. It`s a very welcome addition to Linux and can do nothing but increase its uptake, even if it is just eye candy.